ghostrider
06/21/22 10:42 AM
45.51.181.83
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What? You continue to say that canon is horribly written, yet won't show your views as they would suffer the same fate? If it was good, that would not be a concern.
The questions posted at the beginning of the thread were answered. They were pretty simple. The fact that you said: All I can say is that I am thankful for creating my own Alt. as this history has completely gone off the rails (in my opinion).
This opens up the discussion to continue on with saying the put up or shut up about the alt.
Again.
Anyone can say their nation is the Star League in the game. Even a single world or band of pirates can claim it as such.
Given the information your provided, the SL was nothing more then a dictatorship run by the Camerons, with a horrible General named Kerensky. So it would be fitting that the legacy of Kerensky be the ones to reform it. As I do not share your views on the SL and the clans, I believe your 'facts' on the matter are all Whale Excrement. The view can be debated, but the 'facts' are misleading at best, down right completely false at times.
Saying the developers are out of their minds for producing the story line, then hiding the only solution alt, saying it is yours only, then saying that it is being presented for others suggests a failure of logic. I doubt you see the contradiction in that thought. Or did you ever intend to giving anyone that wanted to find out more, any sort of access to the full alt?
So in the end, the statement of giving people an alt has been proven false, as you will not give them the full details.
So yet again. The answers to the topic have been given. If you don't like it, there isn't much more to say on the subject.
Go to the official website and ask in there. I suspect you came here after being banned there.
And no. Requiem did not buy the rights to the game that I know of. He does seem to think that buying the product makes him the owner of the rights to the whole company, as he suggested more then a few times in the past. It was suggested they do so, and then they can 'save' the franchise by doing what he is doing here.
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Karagin
06/21/22 11:35 AM
70.118.172.64
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I am sure many of us would love to own the rights to the game and all that it entails sans the headaches. Having said that, I am sure we would all also enjoy the chance to fix things, but the questions then come up what is a good a fix without destroying things further, now that is the question. I think you are correct about your statement in your second to the last paragraph about why he won't ask the questions on other sites.
We have asked for the ALT to be presented to us, not sure what the issue is unless what I have been saying for a while is that he is using our feedback to write it, in that he has the crazy ideas and posts things and takes our critical comments to make things work for his writing. Would we get royalties from this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 02:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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I am pretty sure the alt changes with feedback given. The entire section of big wings and nukes seems to have changed. But this is why I agree that the alt is not set in stone.
A few other things have changed while the discussions have been going on.
As for fixing the entire game, I'm not sure it can be done without doing a full reset. The rule changes have destroyed the history continuity of the game and the retcons have made sure that it can't be fixed.
As more history is filled in, even more questions come up. The whole issue with the HPG network comes to mind. The Black Box and mobile units being left out for now, the question is how does anyone know if there is more code in the system then known? I can definitely see the SL having a few codes to shut down parts of the network, to prevent someone from taking the stations and using them to collect data on the SLDF movements and such.
A question that came up while typing this needs to be answered. Does the HPG have to pinpoint a specific station, or is it a shot gun effect? Can multiple receivers on a world get the data being sent?
I would think it much like a radio signal, where it spreads out. So any receiver onworld should be able to receive it. But without the information, this is speculation. As stated before, if it does have a single point it hits, then a cover on the HPG unit should block said signals, including outbound messages. Yes, the discussion of underground antenna does have a part in this, as it suggests nothing could block the signal.
The reason this is a question is I seriously doubt that someone could target anything, even as large as the antenna shown in pictures, something 30 light years away. The rotation of the world being known, it would still have issues tracking it in order to connect with the single antenna. The live messaging used for Katherine could never work, because of planet rotation.
Yes, the antenna could be in space, but nothing is said about fighters guarding the antenna. Those depicted are all ground based.
Other issues is things like infantry damage. A world that is attacked by a single lance of mechs, against a regiment of infantry and the lance wins would be different with the single point of damage by most energy weapons.
The engine in hover craft with the XL engines doesn't keep with the rules, though most say having dead weight would do so. That doesn't make sense. Why couldn't you use a smaller engine before the XL and do the same thing? Or why bother even having the restriction?
The retcon of food and being able to starve worlds is another game changer. Most of the threats used in war are removed like this.
A single rule set needs to be done, and reworking the entire history is needed. Not the crap of an alt, but a full fix of logic in the game itself. Mechs need to have something that gives them a unique advantage, as upgraded equipment can be used by all types of units. The MASC is on such piece of equipment that does this.
It would be funny if the alt was put out to try and make money on everything here. The owners of the game would have a field day with it. Though it would be nice to get a few hundred thousand dollars for cleaning up that mess.
After logging out, the idea that the lawsuits from Harmony Gold might have the developers boxed in. It is possible they are afraid to do somethings, as a lawsuit might come from it. It is always possible that they are being threatened by Harmony Gold as well, which caps doing things outside of what has been done already. Then again, writers block is possible.
Edited by ghostrider (06/21/22 03:02 PM)
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Karagin
06/21/22 03:01 PM
70.118.172.64
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Agreed, lots of issues.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 03:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Quit responding while I'm typing damn it. Makes it hard to add in things that might be missed.
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Requiem
06/21/22 03:19 PM
1.124.21.90
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First Question – Opinion is that anyone can say they are the reformed Star League. However, as stated this is completely unbelievable until all others their provide acceptance of the fact.
The following, however, are yet to be debated …
Question – given all the evidence as to what the first star league represented – books, videos etc – How can the Clans even say, with a straight face, that they are forming a Star League (as per first) when it is clear they have absolutely no idea what the Star League is?
Question – does this mean the Clans will undergo a reformation to what they should be ie. SLDF?
Documentary evidence as to the first Star League, the SLDF and Kerensky must on Terra – and what it stood for – many of their progenitors (whom provided their DNA and name) may also be documented within this vast library of information.
Given the modern version of the Clans are the antithesis of SLDF of Old what will they do given this wealth of first hand information? Reformation or bury it?
As from all available information it can be assumed they will destroy every piece of evidence as to the Star League of old that does not conform with their views of who they are … they are scared of the truth …
Problem is does anyone keep this information safe and pass it down from one true believer to the next – does the truth set the Clans free of their hate -will they be free in a future civil war based on the truth of who they should be … or will they cling to all the hate and propaganda they were forced to believe in ….
As per many countries today my bet is the Clans will accept ignorance and pre-programming dogma – they will be unable to see the truth as they are to ignorant as a society and as an individuals, all they can do accept the status quo and fling hate even in the face of truth.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 07:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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The information the clans had would be changed as each generation comes into power. Some things would be downplayed, such as spying, while other things, like honorable action in combat would be promoted. This happens in every nation throughout history and will continue into the future.
The clans have their version of the original SL, and have their version of what happened and what caused it to fail. The houses destroyed the SL, and need to be punished. And they are partially right. Each house lord did everything they could to be the next first lord, or destroy the SL entirely. Destroying it is what turned out to be the end result. As the other castes started to drag on the one caste that remained true to this vision, is the one that prevailed. As no other examples were seen for the time they were at the home worlds, no one could use comparisons.
As a side note, the IS version of the SL didn't follow the old SL, so there is still no end to it.
Using a national name and acting like the previous nation with that name is not close to guaranteed. The clans will run their SL as they envision it. No matter what anyone else says, they will view it as propaganda compare to the way they were taught. The visions of the Warden and Crusader is a prime example of this. Those in charge do not care what someone else will say is how things are supposed to run. It is that simple.
Where is it stated the clans are the antithesis of the Old SL?
As stated above, the clans will run things they way they see it should be run. The data in the IS has been twisted thru the succession wars, as shown by the fact they lost all the technological advances of the SL. So why should they think the other information is correct? The different houses believe the populations of the other houses are brainwashed, so why should it be any different with the clans? The IS population are barbarians after all.
Also, the old SL fell because of rot from the inside as well as outside. Why repeat that path, when you can form a better one with current views? For the clans, the SLDF was the way it should have done things, not the back room deals that eventually destroyed it.
Look to Comstar for the answer to those passing down the information of old. Walterly turned against the clans when she found out they were not going to be her puppets. Sound like the rest of the IS during the fall?
So the one organization that might have had influence on a clan formed SL proved to be just as dishonorable as the houses.
The one sided outlook does not cover the facts. So far, the IS has shown it will not act honorably in anything, even the sneak attack on the home worlds. They accepted the trial as most wanted the Jaguars gone, which happened, yet the IS had enough force to punish any other clan. From their view, the IS being dezgra still remains. This is the way the clans think. Not understanding this will condemn all analysis to being wrong.
Like the view or not, that is how the clans think. The entire 'reason' for the invasion was to punish the IS, and bring order back to their chaos. They rid themselves of most personal freedoms, so that aspect will not be present. In their eyes, those that demand it, are lazy, weak dezgra bandits whining they have to do something other then eat and drink, while in luxury.
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Karagin
06/21/22 08:19 PM
70.118.172.64
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So are we going to get this ALT or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 10:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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No. Having the alt put out means someone can get it and start proving it is full of holes without even adding in the canon version. It will show that even the creator doesn't know what is actually written down, if the posts here have any indication of what is up.
The 4th war shows this. His version says the CC was destroyed. So the entire concept of Sun Tzu becoming First Lord is completely gone. Which changes the entire concept of the civil war.
It is suggested that Victor dies in an assassination attempt, which removed the Civil war, and the whole making a new realm in the deep periphery chasing the clans. Which would have been changed when they were driven out of the IS thru not having warships or the use of nukes by the IS.
St. Ives would not have been reabsorbed back into the CC as it would be removed from history. And given the response of not trusting any family members of a foreign nation, Candice would not take over to run the CC. But then Sun Tzu wouldn't be in position to take it as First Lord anyways.
It is also suggested that Hanse publicly denounces Comstar for their duplicity during the 4th war, as the units that were in the film sacking the HPG, were in fact rotated out just before the invasion began and new units were sent in.
Yet without the alt to prove anything, the implications are all that is left. Something that has been used to try and say other facts are wrong or right.
The statement of the clans losing their worlds and should have been force into the periphery is yet another fact that could be shown as Bovine Excrement.
But in the end, I suspect the author just doesn't want done to the alt, what they are doing to canon.
So instead of showing the 'perfect, only viable solution' to the canon story, we will constantly get bombarded by things that only one person 'knows'. SO it can change as false facts get called out.
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Karagin
06/21/22 11:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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If the CC is gone then that means the FWL is the new threat to the FC on their "southern" border region. And likely the St Ives Compact is a larger client state of Fed-Com.
That would indeed change the political landscape and play havoc with a lot of things within the factional fighting inside the rest of the Fed-Com, it would also have the Taurians on the warpath to the point they would be jumping at everything beyond their normal.
No Sunny doing anything stupid either...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/22/22 04:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated in the books, Hanse stopped the assault on the CC due to the DC being more of a threat, and the FWL would have to take worlds in order to create a buffer against the FS portion of the FC. The Andurian offense would not have happened, as they would have already had the worlds to connect with the MoC if they wanted to.
With this, the war of 3039 would have had to have dealt with both the DC and FWL as both would have realized they had to fight back together. This also makes one wonder if the FWL/DC combo would have launched their own offensive earlier, like during the Skye uprising.
The creation of the revived SL could have been done with the FC, had Hanse wanted to go that route. It would have caused the war all wanted to avoid for a while.
Now a point that was overlooked when suggesting the FC had the power to make it. The voting, which would have to happen to be the reincarnation of the SL, would be towards the FWL/DC power bloc, as it was those two against the 1 vote for the FC. So even with forming it, the FC would LOSE.
The way around this is to remove the voting rights of the other two, which makes the SL under Hanse, that same sort of situation as the clans.
I would like to see what smoke and mirrors comes up with trying to dispute that one.
Then again, maybe not. I still can't get the Whale Excrement out of my system from the last series of excuses.
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Karagin
06/22/22 07:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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IF Hanse wanted an SL back, which I doubt he did, he would have had it as part of the Fed-Com setup or future point, but we never see that offered. I do find it a bit odd that Hanse didn't give the CapCon a good death blow though, but this was the late 80s early 90s and the idea of killing off a House wasn't really a selling point. Though logic and all, never leave a hurt enemy behind stuff, you know basic military common sense. Oh wait..FASA logic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/22/22 08:20 PM
45.51.181.83
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The problem with completely destroying the CC is the fact that some fans loved the nation. Playing the underdog or just loving the back ground feel of it. To have removed it, also meant more limited house play, as the economic might of the FC would eventually over power the other 2 houses.
I believe that is why the 20 year update had nerfed a lot of units out of existence.
But in the novels, it said Hanse did not want to become the first lord. This was especially true when Luthein was about to be attacked. He thought about it and said no.
During his younger days, the story said he did not want the FS throne. It was Ian's, and when he died, Hanse was forced to take it or allow someone outside the normal power lines to take over.
The canon story did say the attack on the CC was to punish Max. He did not want the entire nation, which is part of why he stopped. FWL incursions was making it clear that the FWL would gain a lot from continuing the war.
It does sound a bit off, but I can see the reasoning. I don't agree with all of it, as I said about Capella not being hit. Just shutting down production of the jumpships and dropships made there for a few months to a year, would have gone a long way to keep the CC from messing with the FS/FC for a long while.
The fact that the CC was no longer even close to Terra, would make things much harder for them. Trade with the Combine would have to enter FC space. They could not reach Terra in a single jump to use that to get into DC space.
Also, not being able to fix or maintain their fleets for a while would have a major impact. I would say food shortages, but that aspect has been retconned out.
And with the idea that Hanse wanted the SL title, he would have ignored the CC and hit the DC with everything he could along with the LC. The FWL and CC could have been held in check until the DC was in major peril. But TPTB did not want to run that route. So they made the punishment idea work.
The interdiction didn't help with the decision to stop wiping out the CC either.
I would also think the FWL was not looking forward to butting heads with the FS troops. So instead of absorbing as many worlds of the CC as they could, they pretty much sat back and let the CC go for a while. Had they done what they needed to, the FWL would have hit the FS troops and started holding them in position or even pushing them back. The sit back and watch attitude was done to prevent the FWL from really huring the LC. The infighting is a nice touch there. I could see the regions furhter away from the border not sending troops, as it would mean those that are taking the worlds would gain power at their expense.
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Karagin
06/22/22 09:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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Agreed, the CapCon falling would have changed the game completely and thus caused bigger issues overall, more so than the Clans showing up. Look at the blowback of the Jaguars being taken out the callous comments from pompous self-appointed gatekeepers like Stackpole over folks needing to pick better factions and such. Seems to be a trend among some of TPTB, the pompous self-righteous part, and some of their friends as well, I mean we would not know about any of that around here at all would we, oh wait, yes, yes we would.
Moving on. Yes, massive changes to the game should come over time and not an overnight kind of thing, players/fans should see them coming and know that they will happen, not sprung on them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/22/22 09:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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With the CC being so small, it is confusing that the first war did not destroy everything they had. That is IF the actual story of the nuke fest was used against them. The regions in the LC look to be only a little smaller then the CC is. Even the regions in the FS were looking larger then the CC. So where did they have any real breathing room?
I think that is why the DC was sent to invade the FS. TPTB realized the CC could not take much of a beating and live thru it. The FWL could have done the same, but it was needed to distract the LC from ripping into the DC in the 1st war.
Hell, the TC looked to have been more powerful then the CC after the 2nd war, as they had more facilities to make things like mechs and ships.
I can see some points where major change should come in a quick motion. The 4th war was such a moment, though some things still don't add up right. It shows that the merger of the FS and LC wasn't really thought thru as much as it should have been. Yes, in the future, they would break it up, but the big nerf really shows they didn't quite see what was wrong before doing so. Removing the nerfs from the LCAF by actually removing the social generals, would have made them better then what the game represents in the 3039 war. A regular meeting where all commanders meet face to face. You might as well just had them hang themselves.
Then giving the FS access to large amounts of mechs, vehicles, ships, and even jumpships should have ended at least one state, possible 2 before the clans showed up. Dropping the black box out of existence was the only way to keep Comstar in the picture without them becoming active war participants.
The output of units would far exceed the other three realms, and streamline the forces of both sides.
I liked the merger, but can see it should have ended the game in the future. Now, we got real crap for story lines.
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ghostrider
06/23/22 06:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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One last point that needs to be said.
By saying one alt is the only one that makes sense, is suggesting every other alt is garbage. As most do have some place where you can learn about their alt, this practice is even more embarrassing to them. With no way to even read the author of the one alt, it becomes direct attacks on those that made them.
As asking for the full details of one particular alt, we got told it will never be made public, so no one other then the author knows what is actually there.
Just thought this point needed to be made, as showing the irony of the whole issue. I would assume a few alt authors would like to have people read their alts, without having a bias from the entire history of the arguments from one author.
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Karagin
06/23/22 09:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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That would be great, but clearly, we won't see said alt. Others have shared theirs, we have offered input, good, bad, indifferent, and went from there. Not sure why we can't see this alt, do we know why?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/12/22 12:31 AM
1.124.23.153
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Who here picked up on the fact that the Clans are attempting the same strategy as that of Sefan Amaris?
Lets take over the legitimate ruler of Terra, murder its ruler - execution style, then declare themselves the new First Lord, ruler over the Star League – whist the remainder of the Star League look’s on and laughed at the absurdity of the statement!
Can we all now recognise that history is repeating itself and the players do not even recognise who they are in the story yet to come ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 01:44 AM
45.51.181.83
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You mean that warfare has not changed in thousands of years?
That almost all conquests end up with a dead ruler if the defenders don't win?
This is the very thing that drove the entire succession wars. To kill the enemy leaders and take the title. A few figured out that it wasn't worth it, and stopped trying.
Now who is the rightful leader of Terra?
Comstar constantly changes who is in charge due to a vote in the first circuit. But that is as far as the voting gets since the SLDF left the IS. WOB tried to kill the first circuit when they took over.
Is any of the Cameron descendants in the Clans the rightful rulers? Or for that fact, any Kerensky descendants?
As Kerensky did not even try to take over the SL, it is not likely they could lay claim to it thru historical methods. The Cameron line might, but that is doubtful as well. They would have to challenge for the position from current clan leaders, and that isn't likely to happen.
Stone was leader for a while. Does that mean his family is rightfully the rulers? To my knowledge no such vote was done for that. So unless military operations are done, there can really be no rightful rulers.
But back to the point.
The clans are doing the very thing all forceful changes to leadership has done. Basically kill those in charge, and set up your dynasty.
What other way could there be? It isn't like the entire IS will vote on who would be in charge of a new SL. They didn't when the 2nd one was set up. And when the 4th comes around, they won't have voted for that one.
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Requiem
07/12/22 02:57 AM
1.124.23.102
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Quote:
You mean that warfare has not changed in thousands of years?
No, the correct answer is … “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
Or in this case those who cannot ascertain a new plot development are bound to resurrect past plots.
Quote:
Now who is the rightful leader of Terra?
The correct question is whom did the rest of the Inner Sphere recognise as the caretaker of Terra at the time of the Clan Invasion?
Or are we going to, as an example, end up with the Jerusalem issue as to the right due to historical precedent?
Quote:
Basically kill those in charge and set up your dynasty.
And then they get killed and a new dynasty is established …. And we are now in an endless loop of … kill … new empire to old empire … kill … new empire to old empire … kill ….. etc.
Quote:
It isn't like the entire IS will vote on who would ‘be in charge’ of a new SL.
And it isn’t like the entire IS will recognise this new rump SL as being a legitimate – some Clans may recognise this as “their” SL, however, for the rest they will just consider this as another failed attempt at a poorly written plot development …
The 2nd SL was set up by all the IS states – hence legitimate
The 4th SL (can’t stop laughing) was set up by two clans who thought they could engage in a personal war over Terra – and failed to tell all the Clans this was going to occur. So what would have happened if they had told all the clans and all the IS states at the same time this “grant mele” for Terra was going to start for Terra and all interested parties would be welcomed to fight over the scraps of Terra?
Sorry but this story is just so badly written I can’t stop laughing at the absurdity of it all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 11:42 AM
45.51.181.83
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It is said that all stories come from 7 plots. There isn't much that can be different in a war scenario. You fight, and if the defender loses, then someone will be executed, possibly the entire family of that leader. In more recent years, the tact of trying to just imprison them has been done, and the effects seem to be mixed at best. There is always some that will fight for the leader, no matter what.
Recognize is not really the correct term. For most of the time that the IS stood after the SL fell, Comstar was recognized as the rulers of Terra, not one person. Had they had a choice, more then a few put in power of Comstar would have been kicked out immediately. Which thinking about it, Comstar would never really have a ruler, as someone would oppose the leader selected. Also, they were not overlord of Comstar. They were more like someone who dealt with the majority vote over the others in the first circuit.
So the reality of war finally emerges? There is always someone ready to kill in order to rule. And with the military option, death of the rulers is almost always done. Greed for power will keep this cycle going. It is a fact in humankinds history.
There will always be people that do not recognize those in power as their leaders. As stated before, anyone can claim they rule the SL. If others follow, then it becomes more solid. The only way to stop this is the destroy those claiming it. Hence the cycle of war continues. Must destroy the old warlord in order to become the warlord. What can be different here?
Why is the 2nd one legit? Because the IS leaders agreed to it? The periphery had no say in it. And it fell as someone pulled out of it. If you really look at it, the 2nd SL wasn't legit, as the representative from the FWL wasn't the real leader of the FWL. So 1 vote was fraudulent to begin with.
The grand melee was fought once already. It was called the succession wars. How did that turn out?
Maybe having the leaders of each realm come in and fight each other for the title might be a good thing. Granted good fighting skills on the field doesn't equal good governing skills over all, but it does help the others know they did what they could.
It would also limit the amount of dead and the damage done fighting for it.
And yes, luck will play a part. An errant shot will change a fight like a head shot taking out the better warrior. Sad thing is, the better warrior is not always the best choice. But then that is what ministers and such are for. Doing the jobs the leader can't.
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Karagin
07/12/22 04:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The 2nd wasn't legit because it was used to wage war on its own member states, to solve the same petty House issues. That alone invalidated it from the start.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/12/22 07:46 PM
1.124.20.197
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Quote:
You fight, and if the defender loses, then someone will be executed, possibly the entire family of that leader.
And I have tried to explain many times in the past this is a war crime!
I am not surprised many consider that this should be included (kill everyone mentality) – though if you want this type of anarchy in war, may I suggest you jump ship and go to Warhammer 40K – there must be a point, however, where in the BattleTech Universe the idea that every world and every unit is no longer trapped in a Mad Max scenario – guess what the majority of worlds are and have been within rule of law, most units accept human rights and the rights of people in war – even though their rulers did not sign the rules of war 2.0 – it has been shown time and again unit commanders protected civilians …
It is time to face the fact that for the betterment of the Battletech universe this type of anarchy should be removed!
Quote:
Comstar was recognized as the rulers of Terra
And did the top person of ComStar did they have absolute control, and thus by extension have total control over Terra?
Just remember the signing of FS and LC Union on Terra and how it was shown that the ruler had absolute control! Or how about when the Clans arrived and one person said they would collaborate with them….
Quote:
There is always someone ready to kill in order to rule.
And these are he type of people that should never be allowed to rule!
Allowing greed for power just demonstrates how empty the citizenry of the IS are – time and again rulers emerge not with a gun but with peace and it is these that should be shown with true power – Lyran and Fed Suns circa 3025 … these are the true rulers!
Not the Clans of any age and any leader!
This is the ‘true-fact’ for humanities history!
Quote:
The only way to stop this is the destroy those claiming it.
If they do not have the power to act as terrorists with heavy weapons the military can ignore them and leave them to the local constabulary, just like every other failed fringe group.
Also the old warlord is often killed off by their own people or by their own hand when they realise they have lost. You don’t have to kill off the old warlord!
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The grand melee was fought once already. It was called the succession wars. How did that turn out?
Comprehension of what was written. Please re-read.
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The 2nd wasn't legit because it was used to wage war on its own member states
The 2nd was used to wage war upon the enemy by forming one SLDF – which it was formed to fight - and that alone validated it from the start …
The sad fact is that TPTB didn’t understand that with such an agreement the lawyers of every member state would have been involved in its creation making the ability to wage war on its members illegal and impossible!
Again a very poor and pathetic plot development within an insipid story line!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 09:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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This very thing happens even today.
The problem is who is willing to even begin to prosecute these. The only time they are, is if there is enough nations willing to stand up and actually deal with it. I hate it.
When done in the medieval days, few cared enough to go to war to do anything about it. So it was ignored.
And this is ignoring when family members wipe out other family members to take control.
I figure you will try the WWII courts, but even now, some live without fear of prosecution as they live in countries that will not extradite those accused. This is true for even more recent crimes.
You praise Warhammer, yet berate Battletech for not being realistic? I would suggest rethinking what was posted. The game has avoided running thru the succession wars were there was nothing but kill the enemy or be killed. It has scaled back to allowing the enemy to retreat, least you get hit while chasing them. Single world conflicts don't end a war when you have thousands of others that you can hit or be hit from.
Also, the war is not constantly fought on one world. It is years and even decades before the same world has a full invasion on it. Raids are a different story, as hitting the enemy's ability to make war is fundimental to all wars.
Comstar was never voted to become the overlords of Terra. It was shoved down their throats when Blake was appointed as the SL failed. What does this say about the control they had? Since then, Comstar has been a dictator over the population, as anything that upsets them, tends to end with seizures and executions. Most don't get a trial as ROM tends to perform it.
The entire history of the IS runs on greedy people willing to kill for power. Katherine is a prime example of this. Sugar coat it all you want, the entire lust for the First Lord position has always been set up that those that kill all, would rule the rest.
And how do you stop someone from taking positions of power when they kill all that oppose them? Amaris did that very thing to the first family, and look what happened. The suggestion that Kerensky was the bad guy for removing him came down as a bad suggestion. If Kerensky would have assumed the throne, then the entire SL story would have been far different. Better or worse, I don't know. There are too many variables to deal with.
You don’t have to kill off the old warlord!
What world have you been living on? When you don't kill off the old warlord, then they find their allies, even ex enemies that don't like the new warlord and strike back at the new one. The old government resists and forments even more violence against the winning rulers. This is especially true when the old warlord was heir to a throne. I would like it to be otherwise, but it isn't like new warlords are always better then old ones. Part of why voting for a change is the only real was to try and avoid violence while changing a ruler. And even then it doesn't always happen.
The comprehension is there. A massed amount of combatants fought over the single prize of ruling. The nations involved were not always on the same side as others in their nations. Some involved were ready to kill the winner, so they could take power. A few tried to revolt and got destroyed. How is this not a grand melee?
Wait. So if the clans say they formed the SL, then it is illegal, but if the IS forms one it is? How does that happen?
For it to be legal, all involved have to agree to it. I didn't hear the periphery realms say they agreed to it. The clans, being closer to the original SLDF then most in the IS didn't agree, unless one of their own was in charge. The clans have always said they were the SLDF in exile. The IS has never had a claim as strong.
Being illegal and still having it done isn't that impossible. How are you going to prosecute the First Lord that YOU elected when they attack a specific target? The best you might come up with is a consensous of them doing something illegal, but what can you actually do to punish them? Vote them out is about it, and even then, politics will stop most of it. Who will succeed the person? How do you punish them without punishing the people the represent? All things that would have been done before the SL became a reality, yet this would have taken years, if not decades. Something the IS didn't have when they formed the 2nd SL.
During the 4th war, the FC, or the FWL/DC/CC could have used the SL name and it would have been the same in legality.
It was rushed into existence and fell because of the rush.
The SL is dead and needs to remain dead. A new name needs to be done, in order to stop the past taint from destroying a new grand experiment. Don't ask what the name should be, as I really don't know. I do know the Star League will not stand for long.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 09:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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As a side note, this is a war game. If everyone is part of the same organization, then who do you fight?
You do shadow wars? Revolt and rebel against each other and the primary nation?
Do you try and add in some other entity that will destroy the prime nation?
The clans would not last against a united IS. Though united wouldn't be for long as each ruler would destroy the SL for the sake of their own power. Soon all would be back to the succession wars, with the last ruler having a small advantage. Using SL assets to dig into 'enemy' nations secrets to know where to strike the first blows.
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Karagin
07/12/22 09:50 PM
70.118.172.64
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Warhammer is not even close to realistic. Warhammer is more fantasy in space than anything else. It is not even science fiction. And we are back to the same from you. Your take is the only thing going. The game is not perfect, we all know this. We each have parts of it we don't care for, but none of us can change it.
The Clans are not going to fail unless the PTB want them to fail, either this new Star League under Alric will work or it will be a carbon copy of the original with more killing and war, but with different names on who is doing the fighting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/13/22 06:34 AM
1.124.20.72
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The problem is who is willing to even begin to prosecute these.
First, every professional military maintains their own military police / Judicial system. – Same as in Battletech
Second, Currently, there is a world court to prosecute said crimes – if you a mercenary there certainly is …
Third, there is the court of public opinion to which many governments will chastise the offending government. – yes Great Houses would relish publicising the evils of other great houses and would be more than willing to restrict export / import of goods.
Also the Battletech era is not the same as that of the medieval era.
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extradite those accused
Yes, just as USA will not allow their soldiers to be extradited. Still will not fix the issue of world media condemning them.
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You praise Warhammer, yet berate Battletech for not being realistic?
Again reading comprehension … Warhammer is anarchy on steroids.
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the succession wars were there was nothing but kill the enemy or be killed.
Why have a Battlemech force when first strike was nuclear only?
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Comstar was never voted to become the overlords of Terra.
Suggest re-reading the history of Comstar
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar
Blake was able to secure the support of the House Lords with the signing of the Communications Protocol of 2787. Then in 2788, Blake took control of Terra
They didn’t vote they signed away Terra to Comstar ….
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Since then, Comstar has been a dictator over the population, as anything that upsets them, tends to end with seizures and executions. Most don't get a trial as ROM tends to perform it.
Where is this written – especially when they are trying to demonstrate themselves as a benevolent religion?
Their image would be shot if they attempted this to the wider houses and their citizens.
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The entire history of the IS runs on greedy people willing to kill for power.
Sorry but this is not an absolute …
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Katherine is a prime example of this.
Sorry but Machiavelli has points that dispute this! also why does a vast percentage of the Lyran people love her?
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Sugar coat it all you want, the entire lust for the First Lord position has always been set up that those that kill all, would rule the rest.
And as for Archon Katrina Steiner ….
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The suggestion that Kerensky was the bad guy for removing him came down as a bad suggestion.
Then why did he order the death of Amaris family – civilians – women and children to be executed by firing squad at the same time?
Sorry, but he too is a war criminal!
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You don’t have to kill off the old warlord! What world have you been living on?
Comprehension of the written word … again.
“the old warlord is often killed off by their own people or by their own hand.”
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How is this not a grand melee?
By Clan standards how is it? Only two involved?
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So if the clans say they formed the SL, then it is illegal, but if the IS forms one it is?
Correct. Refer above.
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If everyone is part of the same organization, then who do you fight?
Factional infighting – civil war.
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none of us can change it.
This is why you create your own history for yourself and your friends.
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The Clans are not going to fail unless the PTB want them to fail
And in so doing they will drive the franchise into the ground as less will invest in products due to a very bad scenario.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/22 11:58 AM
45.51.181.83
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Is that why more then a few governments have been accused of war crimes, yet the leaders are still ruling to this day? Because other countries have stepped up and demanded those leaders pay for their crimes?
The other nations will not start a war in order to punish those that have done so. And there are other nations that are supporting those that have committed the war crimes.
How would the FS or even the FWL punish the DC for war crimes? Units that committed it were praised by the offending nation. This is based on real world facts. It does portrait those people of such nations in a bad light, as most governments have had their issues. Most have punished their own.
As for the military punishing their own, just like all crimes, that doesn't always happen.
Ground military is required to clean up, and hit worlds that were too valuable to just nuke outright. Also, nukes were not always used to destroy the entire world. Military facilities were the main target, with other targets of importance hit as well. Some worlds were glowing afterwards, but not all.
When invading from the sea, do nations bombard the shore defenses before sending in the ground troop? The question you asked would be like asking why send in the ground troops after you blasted the beaches with the naval, and air bombardments.
And those living on Terra didn't have a vote. So it was just another dictator put into power. The world government changed without any say of the population. And the 'religion' was changed as well.
With a planetary ruler, you can do things like have gas leaks that kill areas, as large as cities, and get away with it. ROM would definitely remove those that screamed the most, and with this, I don't think Comstar allows Terra freedom of press. Everything is state run media. Otherwise, there would be rebellions on Terra from their treatment.
How do you think they keep their secrets from the rest of the IS?
Not every leader was kill everything that isn't us. That is true. But the only time the wars paused, seemed to be when a group that wasn't so blood thirsty rose to power at the same time, or ran out of machines to continue for a while. But for taking the title of First Lord, the kill all was the main warfare mind until the 3rd war. Basically, they needed what was left, so had to cut back on how many were killed at one time.
Katherine was someone that did kill anyone for power. Making sure the truth was never revealed was why people backed her. She conned them with lies, and stabbed them when they weren't looking. Not sure that the vast majority were on her side, as there were no real rebellions against Victor when the civil war raged. It only takes a vocal minority to sound like a vast majority in the news.
Hanse and Katrina were a bit different. Katrina was not one for wanting the throne, as she gave that option away to Hanse with the merger. Only one of the two could become First Lord. It may well be that both realized it would not happen in their life time, but maybe the children of the merger would. And they were not kill all people. Part of why the lull was happening. It is a bit odd that the 4th war was so short, but with the CC being cut badly, I could see the others not wanting to fight being caught off guard. The other wars were not the huge wars like before.
The military can order the deaths of a mass murdering criminal like Amaris was. The family can well be designated to be executed as well. As regeant of the SL, it was well within Kerensky's right to do so as well. Honestly, it may well have been ordered to avoid the soldiers being prosecuted for doing so without orders. Execution of an entire family that has committed the crime of killing a ruling house almost entirely has been pretty standard through out time.
Not sure where only two are invoked in the succession wars. If your talking about the World wars, there were multiple of nations involved in those wars. For the succession wars, there were 5 main combatants with multiple entities being involved. Even the periphery states were involved in them as well. Maybe not active participants, but worlds fought on.
Unless you think a grand melee is only two combatants, which means you don't understand the rules behind it. That is multiple warriors put in an arena and all fight until only one survives.
Not sure if you understand the issue of one can claim it while another can't. The clans were the SL in exile. They were still that when they invaded. They had history on their side, so their claim to the SL mantle is much stronger with legalities then the IS.
What is the difference between a civil war and multiple nations fighting for the same thing? In the end, only the greed for power prevails.
Oh wait. A civil war means anyone that losses is charge with war crimes. And normally executed.
There is a difference between making your own history, and trying to suggest it is the only one that everyone needs to follow. Something that hasn't seemed to sink in. So avoid that suggestion and this will be a more civil discussion.
The suggestion the game will fail because the developers follow the same logic that wars do isn't the case. Having stupid things like destroying their own rules to make the next big threat is. You can have the same wars fought over and over and over, with different outcomes and such, but having spears and club fight suddenly bring in a Star Destroyer is where the problems come from.
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Karagin
07/13/22 08:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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So we are back to him wanting his own game, that is what all of this boils down to.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/13/22 08:38 PM
1.124.30.43
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governments have been accused of war crimes, yet the leaders are still ruling
1st Politics or more accurately politicians get in the way as the majority are too afraid of actually stepping up to the plate and doing what is right and proper – as certain countries can only be dragged kicking and screaming to do the right thing … as they are more interested in their own political agenda than that of protecting the world.
That said, however, there are a few that will stand up – Margie Thatcher ….
However, the majority of the current crop of politicians have to date failed the Santayana test.
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the military punishing their own
Dependent upon –
How liberal their government is – democratic to authoritarian.
How free the media is at reporting the facts.
And if the military can hush it up to preserve their own image.
If they do get caught on media – someone will need to go to the stockade to preserve the ‘honour’ of the military.
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Ground military is required to clean up, and hit worlds that were too valuable to just nuke outright.
Even during the 1st Succession War? Where the plan was to nuke them until they glow in the dark.
So why send in the troops if you have just killed off the world entirely – as occurred during the Jihad era for example?
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And those living on Terra didn't have a vote.
Again … where is this written?
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But for taking the title of First Lord, the kill all was the main warfare mind until the 3rd war.
This is why the 3025 era is superior to all others – as from 3039 onwards the game just lost he plot entirely.
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Katherine was someone that did kill anyone for power.
Again, read Machiavelli the Prince (as well as the Borgia’s during the Renaissance) – this demonstrates that Katherine was acting correctly.
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as she gave that option away to Hanse with the merger.
Again historically this did not occur – the first real FC leader was Melissa upon Hanse’s death … prior to this leadership was Melissa Lyran Hanse Suns …
And as for the CC their realm should have ceased to exist 3039 onwards …
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The military can order the deaths of a mass murdering criminal like Amaris was.
Only after a trial and only for him and his cronies … executing without a trial and including his family at the same time (civilian – women and children) is a WAR CRIME!
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only two are invoked
The war to become il Clan …. One of the most preposterous and ridiculous situation ever conceived in the Battletech universe – probably second only to the Jihad Era.
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The clans were the SL in exile
After half an hour of laughing …. I am now able to make a reply …
The Wolverines were the last … as for the remainder they are in no way Star League – they are Amaris’ through and through -by word and deed.
They have absolutely no idea whatsoever as to what it means to be SLDF – even when confronted with the truth on Terra they would just hide (Destroy) the evidence as to their fall from grace.
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What is the difference between a civil war and multiple nations fighting for the same thing? In the end, only the greed for power prevails.
What and who are you fighting for?
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A civil war means anyone that losses is charge with war crimes. And normally executed.
Just as in the American Civil War ?
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Something that hasn't seemed to sink in.
And who is it that is pushing the idea that there is only one that everyone needs to follow? For it is not me.
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having spears and club fight suddenly bring in a Star Destroyer is where the problems come from.
i.e. inept writing
This is a science fiction setting in deep space – hence there must be a navy – and by extension they must be the king of the battlefield! What this just demonstrates is a lcak of planning.
i.e. during 3039 to 3050 the IS are able to revive building warships thus by the time of the clan invasion Naval battles can once more commence.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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