ghostrider
07/28/22 06:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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What do you think would have happened if the clans took Terra in the original invasion?
Say Ulric took the wolves to capture Terra.
This would also mean one of the others may have taken it as well.
It is pretty much assured that if the Falcons or Jaguars took it, there would be a continuation of fighting going on as they would not just sit and rule Terra, but try to eliminate those that brought down the SL in the first place. The house lords bear a lot of responsibility for that, but not as much as Amaris did. Still, they did nothing to prevent the fall of Terra, nor did they do anything to help take it back.
Do you think Ulric would have been able to control the Crusaders in both his clan and the others, and prevent them expanding and reclaiming the TH area? Do you think he would promote that very plan?
We can expand this to include more clans as the need for warriors will become necessary no matter which way this goes.
Which also means answering if the others would get involved as they were left out of the original invasion, and would see such duty as nothing more then a glorified PGC.
Would the clan in control be forced to give up their territories in the home worlds, as they could not keep control of the IS and those areas as well?
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Karagin
07/28/22 07:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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If the Wolves took Terra, we would have seen something akin to a new era of armed peace at first. The Clans would have been in the middle of shifting gears. The leaders at that time were political as much as they were battlefield warriors. Lots of Trials and challenges for all manner of things to get a new pecking order setup, regardless of what Ulric had in mind.
Mainly would have caused the Fed-Com to splinter back to the LC and FS parts since the drive to Terra would have physically done that. The Lyran worlds would be in a fight against the Falcons and the Vipers without any restraints. The FWL would have been on the defensive and trying to figure out what to do and rip pickings for the Falcons and Vipers. The Cap-Con would be a wild card. The Combine would be fighting for its life since the Jaguars would still be fighting to take what they wanted, and their anger of not being ilClan would be taken out on the Combine.
ComStar would be a mess. Their whole house of cards would be in ruin. They would be broken, no Word Of Blake, not as we know it. Some would flee to the FWL as per canon, but some would likely run to the Combine or the Fed-Suns. Most would be folded into the new Clan Wolf.
My question is, what happens to the merc units that are running around at this point?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/28/22 08:50 PM
1.147.82.21
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Sorry Karagin I would disagree with your assessment as to an era of new peace, I believe it would be the complete opposite in fact.
First, the Clans are akin to the Mongol in that they must prove their warrior spirit constantly – those Clans within the first invasion would desire to establish fiefdoms surrounding Terra – whist the central worlds should be considered to belong to whomever is the new il-Clan.
Thus every clan would be jostling for their empire as close to that of the il-Clans territory to prove their superiority to that of the new il-Clan / il-khan.
Thus the area surrounding Terra would become rife with challenges as to whom own what world - this will take time to settle down before borders can be considered established.
Second, politics – with the acquisition of Terra all clans would demand the capitol of Clan society be immediately transferred from Strana Mechty to Terra. What this would also necessitate is a second Clan invasion by those Clans whom were forced to remain behind within the Kerensky Cluster – i.e all Clans are now allowed to the right to join the crusade and establish their own fiefdoms within the Inner Sphere – just not as close to Terra as those who were within the first invasion.
Thus you can expect a new expanded invasion corridor from the periphery through to Terra within Lyran / Combine space.
What this will also necessitate is a new exodus of the Clan civilian caste to the Inner Sphere – to train the new serfs of the Clans on all conquered worlds and o build monuments to their thousand year Reich …
In my opinion what you will end up with Clan version of the Chaos March on steroids in a vast area surrounding Terra – as an example a clan version of the Republic of the Sphere – just way bigger.
However he problem is if you allow the Clan to beat each other silly whilst the remaining forces of the IS undergo expansion and re-armament at the same time then attack with an overwhelming show of force – attrition warfare – what you should end up with is Stalingrad (WW2) over a couple hundred worlds – no quarter asked or given!
The question is though can the Clans hold on given the tyranny of distance back to the Kerensky Cluster – and can they maintain communication with the Kerensky Cluster.
I would also like to point out with the majority of the Warriors gone this is the absolute perfect time for the scientists to rise up and take control of the Kerensky Cluster to establish a new Clan society.
Thus giving those Clans within the IS an interesting choice – remain and create a new empire (and in 10-20 years return to save the old empire – or save the old empire now.
As for ComStar – just like the Pope throughout history / many WW2 governments – they would just be considered to be ComStar in exile – probably in the FWL with the fake / Real Marik
This would also open up many issues with regards to how the internal politics of the IS would look like.
FWL and the CC can no longer sit out the war they are now both active participants and must act as such, for example.
As for Merc’s they do what they always have – fall back regroup and rearm – find a new employer with a large war chest and undertake the high risk / high pay jobs no one else would do.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/28/22 09:53 PM
70.118.172.64
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Hey Requiem, have you got that ALT for us yet?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/28/22 09:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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I would think that the FC might survive initially, as they do have the worlds from the FWL and CC near Terra.
Whether the clans immediately attack them is the key. The FRR would be history, that is almost certain. Not sure if the Ghost Bear Domain would arise or not.
Comstar might well be incorporated into the clans, as they were treated like long lost, but ignorant brothers of the clans. As Walterly would not have initiated Operation Scorpion yet, it is questionable whether they would turn on Comstar or not.
Also, this thread is asking if another clan took Terra as well, so it may not be the Wolves, though more likely then not, it would be.
I doubt they would allow the LC to continue to own and operation Defiance, as that was an SL built factory, and a good place to start making clantech.
But as questioned, would they take all the worlds that were originally the TH, as it was the base worlds of the SL?
Just because the clans might have Terra, doesn't mean the other realms folded at this point. They may well be launching major counter attacks, along with hitting the supply lines to the periphery that the clans would rely upon until retooling of factories could be done.
Bringing in hordes of workers from the home worlds would be necessary, as few in the IS are trained to produce clan tech, though it isn't that much of a jump from SL tech. It can be done, but how quickly?
There would not be a need for a second invasion wave, as most would come thru the invasion corridors already established, though later clans may well have to fight trials of possession for those worlds, as the original invaders might be 'allowed' to bid for worlds closer to Terra.
That is IF the clans would even allow the ones that lost the ability to move to the IS. Politics might come into play, but I doubt the Falcons and Jaguars would just allow anyone to come in to take their worlds.
There is also a chance the home clans might have some that refuse to come to the IS.
Given the numbers of reinforcements the clans can get, they may well have to concentrate on worlds around Terra, and leave it at that for a while.
I don't think the IS clans would allow the scientists to remain in the home worlds, as most are failed warriors or freeborns. That is far more power then the warriors would allow, even if they are ignorant of the scientists in the canon storyline.
As for mercs, i think they would be targets but most clanners would think they are bandits more then true warriors, if they keep with their initial views of them. They may well be targeted by the clanners for their lack of loyalty to any nation.
I would guarantee Outreach would be targeted to remove the Dragoons from there.
The question of if Vlad rises up to challenge Ulric would be an issue. That could change the scope of how things continue from that point.
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Karagin
07/28/22 10:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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The House Lords would still be fighting, and my point about the FC falling part is I don't see Ulric stopping at Terra; I see him taking the old Hegemony worlds, which would cut the FC in two.
Ulric was playing the game hard on all fronts. He would willingly give the Falcons and Vipers free rein over the LC part of the FC and into the FWL to keep them out of his hair because he knows they would get in over their heads. Same for the Bears, Cats, and Jaguars in the Combine.
He has the old Terran worlds, plus what his Wolves took initially in the invasion. That gives him a good base of support and a link to the Homeworlds. The other Clans will play the ilClan game until one of them figures out a way to unseat the Wolves.
Now the House Lords will be hard pressed to do much else. The Combine is going to be fighting for their lives. Theodore will use everything he can get and some to keep his realm alive. If he has peace with Hanse and the Suns, he can do a better job with fewer internal issues. IF not well, we will see the Black Dragons and others show up sooner.
Laio will be their usual asinine selves. They will play their games, and given how they don't know or understand the Clans, they will try the raid and such as per how things typically go. They aren't going to like the return on those actions. However, I don't see Ulric going full Roman on Laio.
ComStar, I don't see Ulric taking them in. He does not need them, and he doesn't trust them. He has Phelan, who has already told him about them, along with the reports from the Dragoons and Natasha's input. So disbanding them and putting actual engineers and techs who KNOW how things work etc...their place is his best choice. So I go back to my first statement. Those outside the old Hegemony or Clan-held worlds will likely join the existing Houses or what Rump organization forms. Waterly will not go quietly; while Focht might, the others won't. ComStar is done in this setting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/28/22 10:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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Vlad's rising may not happen; he would have to go through Phelan and Natasha since the Wolf-Falcon War won't happen, and he won't have his chance to be Khan. He could still try, but it would be going against honor and all that. Something he would not do. One thing is for sure old Katherine won't be getting a throne. LOL.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/28/22 11:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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I can see some of the clans taking offense to the CC. Their arrogance will attract some of the trueborns attention and they will show the CC to be respectful to the clans. Granted, it is possible some of the worlds the FC didn't have at that time were still in Liao hands that were part of the TH. I don't remember the map that well.
I can see the other clans besides Wolf pushing out as fast as they can, and getting into trouble, as their numbers will start showing quickly. There are just too many worlds with heavy garrisons with hordes of vehicles, that would bleed them dry. I would suspect Ulric will know this, as Phelan and even the Dragoons (Wolfnet) would relay that information. If he took Terra, he may well try the expansion route, but leave it up to the others to try and fail in this endeaver. Or have other clans that come in later, have to challenge for worlds, which happen to be these very ones.
I hadn't considered Ulric rejecting Comstar because of Phelan and the others opinions. So I will agree with that one. The other clans are still iffy. The clan techs should be able to make the HPG network work, but a few things need answers.
Is the HPG network patched up so much the clan techs need to rebuild them from the ground up?
How long would Comstar be able to keep up the rest of the network for the rest of the IS, as I don't see the houses trusting the clans to do anything but attack them.
The accusation of Ulric sacrificing the clans to Comstar for the truce is what allowed Vlad to rise, then the Falcon war did the rest, so I can agree with that outcome. Vlad would not have the chance to gain that much power.
Honestly, I think the Black Dragons would show up sooner then later. They wouldn't have much choice. They showed up for the founding of the FRR, so I would think they would have no choice but to do something if the clans pushed thru the Dieron district, and closer towards the OA.
The Vipers and Nova Cats are questionable. Depending on the time frame, they may not be activated until much later, if at all. Then again, more clans may be activated depending on how much resistance the IS was providing.
There is more in depth things that can change the entire outcome. First being, Victor being captured or killed on Trell 1. Hohiro on Edo. Phelan when they first encountered the clans. The suicide run on the Dire Wolf being changed a little, but that is later in the invasion. Just a few little things would have done much to change the entire story.
Even the clan bids for which corridor could have changed much.
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ghostrider
07/28/22 11:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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Imagine if the clans decided to just increase supplies or had the Vipers and Cats included in the first part of the invasion, so 6 clans instead of 4.
Would the Falcons and Jaguars taken the flanks like they did, with the other 2 clans between them and the Wolves/Bears?
Would they have wanted something with a little easier access to Terra?
Would they have increased the size of the invasion area, or left it as it was, and just had more troops waiting for the next assault?
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Karagin
07/29/22 12:22 AM
70.118.172.64
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I would see the remains of ComStar becoming part of each House's Military or Spy network, or Civilian side of things, depending on the House. MIIO would gain the HPGs and such in the FedSuns, LIC would get the ones in the LC, etc...for the other Houses. The ComGuard might fight these takeovers, others might not, and some might go rogue.
If the Clans have their own HPGs, and it seems that they do, can they make new ones? I mean, the SL came up with them, more or less, so why wouldn't the Clans be able to make new ones as needed? (just pointing out a massive flaw in a certain PLOT point of the canon, but moving back to our topic.)
The Clans would have new areas to focus on, fighting would not stop, and the idea that it stops above the truce line was foolish and, I think, hurt the game overall. This time flanking Clans would have targets to vent their wrath on, and Ulric would highly encourage it since it would mean they would be bloodied and busy dealing with those fronts. Meanwhile, he has the time to rebuild the Hegemony worlds. This cements the power base of Clan Wolf and then gives them the needed stronghold to engage against FWL, CapCon, Suns, and Combine as they want to, along with testing their fellow Clans in Trials and other such engagements.
Vlad and the other Crusaders would be a bit hard-pressed to push things since their argument of who did what is now mute; a Warden Khan took Terra. Their whole ideology is defeated. We would see a shift inside the Wolves to one of that venerated Ulric and those who got him to Terra.
I see the Falcons/Vipers fighting it over the LC and parts of the FWL and other local environs. Same for the Jaguars and Cats and Bears against the Combine and each other. This one would be the tricky one, though. The Jaguars have lost the most face (honor) in the invasion, and since they are not ilClan anymore or ever, they will be hell-bent on taking down the Combine for sure this time. I would say Luithen would be attacked again, and while the outcome might be the gutting of the Jaguars, it will be on their terms as set by the game's own rules for the Clans. Not flavor of the month, bad guys. We need to remove something or a group from the game because a couple of our writers and other PTB learned about new military doctrine at the time (not really new but was coming back into vouge).
The size of the invasion area would increase because there would be no truce line or other silliness. Ulric would need the Clans focused on the Houses and each other. Now comes the 64-thousand dollar question (or million, depending on the version you saw), what are the Home Clans going to do? Will the Hellions, come charging into the Inner Sphere? Will we see the Reaving happen?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/29/22 12:27 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Dragoons might get a pass if Ulric takes Terra, mainly because I think, Celcia (I can't recall her name, but I know it's close to that) Ward told him what she knew about the Orders given to Jamie, as did Natasha. And I believe another Wolf Khans also briefed Ulric. So the Dragoons might have been ignored on Outreach as long as they didn't attack any world held by Clan Wolf.
Some other units, like the Hounds, and Light Horse, might get a pass since they are seen as more honorable, but I believe the rest would be seen as bandits. Now with the change in fighting and the fact that the LC and Combine will need a lot of units to hold their worlds, many merc units will be flocking to those areas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/22 01:13 AM
45.51.181.83
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With the initial push, I don't know if the original corridor would be expanded with the addition of 2 more clans.
We are talking a race for Terra, not the conquest of the entire IS from the start of it.
After Terra is taken, then they would definitely expand.
But then this would also be dependent on some story line things not happening. The truce would not happen, as Comstar would not have had time to put up the bid. The clans would fight on Terra, not a proxy world. And with this, they would be more ready to fight a grueling campaign, unlike the canon story.
It might also be, that Ulric decides that at this point, taking Terra is more important that stopping the other clans. So the truce fight wouldn't happen.
Granted Comstar might realize this too late and bring out their warships and start hitting the clans warships. That would change the war some.
With the push past the FRR area, the clans might reinforce their warships, especially if they believe Comstar is untrustworthy, and they learn Comstar has warships.
It would also need to be asked if the clans had the old SL star maps, meaning they know what worlds are in the IS, so no hidden worlds could be used to spring an attack on them.
Bases like Camelot Command pose another issue. With a possible change up in clans and possible location changes, would the Falcons have taken the shipyard? Would another one, and who?
Given the canon story, they seemed to have forgotten about it.
Given the Light Horse was an SL unit, that poses an interesting problem. Would the clans invite them back into the fold? Or just destroy them for deserting the SLDF when they left? Would the ELH join them if offered?
The mercs pose a separate problem. Depending on how the war was going, would they stand and fight? Or run, hoping the clans are stopped. As the clans are likely to take bondsmen, mercs may well be executed when ever they could be.
I can see one outcome of this being a full break up of the houses, and having the clans start their own little civil war again, as they fight for Terra, basically destroying the agreement and just attacking anything that isn't their clan.
Then again, I can see they keeping their agreement with honor it was written in, and becoming a stable basis for a new (reborn) SL.
This also adds in questions about the periphery states.
Would they back the houses? Sit out and wait until the clans come after them? Launch attacks into the houses, hoping to grab some land to slow the clans down before they get into the periphery?
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Requiem
07/29/22 03:38 AM
1.147.82.21
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How is the study in etiquette and comprehension studies progressing?
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I would think that the FC might survive initially
Really? With the establishment of a Clan version of the “Republic of the Sphere” where every clan is attempting to create their own fiefdom both halves of the FC would end up being geographically separated from one another.
Thus in real terms both Victor and Katherine could in all likelihood end up in one realm or the other thus necessitation one to rule one half of the FC in order to combat the Clan menace from their side of the IS.
That is the FC would only exist in name alone …
Yes as Clans invaded the Terran System Walterly could have – in a deluded state of mind due to a breakdown – ordered the commencement of Operation Scorpion just before they fled to the FWL.
As for another Clan becoming il-Clan, cannot see this being anyone but he Wolves as the writing suggests TPTB had decided from day one they were their favourite Clan and as such it would be them! Can anyone say Nepotism!
Defiance would fall!
Counterattacks – with what? It all comes down to how many units remaing and how willing their leaders are at initiating a counter attack.
Second Invasion Wave – do you know how humiliating it would be for the home clans to remain at home then be granted safecon to go through the invasion corridor only to be dropped off at the end and then being told you can have these worlds if you can capture them?
Humiliated doesn’t begin to express the feelings these clans would have to gr through.
Scientists – are both failed warriors and freeborn – someone has to remain on the clan home worlds to keep the iron wombs producing new progeny as well as creating new DNA variants from those brave warriors during the first clan invasion …
So yes a great number will remain behind – and these most definitely will rebel against their warrior overlords.
As for the Dragoons – they are the new Wolverines … kill on sight!
If Ulric becomes the first il-Khan Ulric will never be allowed to challenge – Ulric would have to die a warriors death in battle first before a second could be chosen (politics – similar to Nicholas Kerensky ) – and in all likelihood it would be Phelan Nepotism once more?
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That gives him a good base of support and a link to the Homeworlds.
And no understanding of the concept tyranny of distance …
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the House Lords will be hard pressed to do much else.
Depends upon the military industrial capabilities / military units that survived as well as any R&D teams that survived to re-equip each house with Clan level technology to fight on with.
However there will always be problems for the IS as TPTB care more about their pet Clans than they do for the IS Houses.
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One thing is for sure old Katherine won't be getting a throne
I wouldn’t put a bet down on that – with the separation of FC into two once more both will need a ruler …..
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There are just too many worlds with heavy garrisons with hordes of vehicles
Problem is TPTB have never cared about vehicles in the Clans conquest of the IS – thus you may have hordes – yet at the end of the day it comes down to Mech Vs Mech.
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Imagine if the clans decided to just increase supplies
How can you tell when no one ever wrote about the definitive nature of Clan Supplies and replacement personnel?
As well as the IS were never allowed to attack these re-supply units.
I could see ComStar becoming a part of FWL …
Also those pesky 5 hidden world that made the WoB military are they still around and are they making a new military with the collaboration of all houses to take on all of the clans? So how big will the Wob military be if all the IS houses assisted them in creating them into a new Star League Army?
Even though a Wardon Clan won the Il-Clan position – the war goes on as fiefdoms need to be established – external IS Houses need to be squashed …. So life is good for the Clan Warrior as wars do not seem to ending any time soon …
Light Horse – see he Clans as the Nazi unit’s they are – war to the death!
Merc’s will do what they always do –
‘Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries’ by A.E. Housman
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth’s foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth’s foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay.
As for the Clans – just realise that it is the Chaos March on Steroids where anything goes, and alliances will form and be shattered as quickly as they are formed as everyone is out to kill everyone until attrition takes hold and no one has forces to continue the war – then and only then will peace commence.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/29/22 09:24 AM
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After Tia killed the Jag Khan, the different Clans were brought in, and Ulric was elected to lead the invasion. Now, are we going from that point forward or before that?
The Houses will either stand or fall. That is all they can do. Some might merge to stand against the Clans. The others will indeed collapse and likely be picked off by all parties.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/29/22 09:24 AM
70.118.172.64
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Do you have the ALT posted for us to see yet?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/29/22 09:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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Camelot Commad is a non-issue. The Falcons would be running for it. Snord might go for it. He and his group might be fighting to stay alive as the landscape is different at this point. Since you did point out that certain things will not have to happen.
Camelot Command was a wasted event that only helped the Snords. It did nothing significant since the FC NEVER USED IT for anything of note. Yes, they have SL maps, which would have rendered the whole Hidden World BS pointless, and even the Dragoons had better maps with correct information, but hey, TPBT forgot that little bit, as did all their fact check, eh Cray...yeah I am calling you and others out on that crap. A point has been stated for a while about them having better charts and such, but then they don't because it's convenient for the "story"...
What truce? There would be no truce after Terra falls. The only thing changes are the other Clans won't be able to attack Clan Wolf outright. Everything else not held by Clan Wolf is fair game. Yes, the fight would be on Terra, and depending on how things go, it will be either the Wolves vs. the ComGuard, which might be an interesting fight since the Wolves would be in their prime and the ComGuard would be on home ground. That is, if they even fight. At this point, we would have seen how much of the lies ComStar had been selling about what was working or not working in the Sol System, and their little fleet in orbit around Jupiter and such would be known about a lot sooner.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/22 12:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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The point that changes it all isn't set. The idea that Phelan is killed should show part of that.
The idea the FC could survive initially was to show that when the clans initially take Terra, they still had the area taken from the CC and FWL to remain in physical contact. So yet the time frame issues still seem to elude some.
What does need answers is if the clans could disrupt or even shut down the HPG network that wasn't under their physical control. They should have access to the original programs put in place by the SL that could do such things.
Again, assumption comes thru by the same person. This is not a discussion about what the story line has going. The fact the clans reach Terra in the first invasion should show this. It is a discussion that deals with non set alt concepts of what if.
Counter attacks with what? This is a question that shouldn't need to be answered, but will. ALL the houses will be in a life or death fight. With the clans spread out from the 'northern' border to Terra, not every military industry is located there, nor is ever last force known to the IS. There will be counterstrikes, which may also include removing the clans from Terra before they get set up. Then again, they may never remove them. Until there is no more dropships to move troops, there will always be some counter attacks. No thought put into responses again. If you can't bother reading everything and thinking before responses, don't bother with responses.
Funny. You contradicted this question later on in the post.
do you know how humiliating it would be for the home clans to remain at home then be granted safecon to go through the invasion corridor only to be dropped off at the end and then being told you can have these worlds if you can capture them?
Yeah. Using the established route from the home worlds to the IS would be totally embarrassing. Then being told that you have to fight for worlds in order to establish your clan there, like the Vipers and Cats had to do in the original story. Do you know what would be embarrassing? Having to sit at the home worlds while all the other clans are taking out those that caused the SL's downfall. Guess they need to build another route for them to get to the IS to fight. Or be wiped out as the clans taking the IS will eventually become far stronger then yours. SO yeah. Not much thought put into that response.
Why do you think Walterly would run to the FWL? If I recall right, she came from the DC area. WOB was the FWL favorite. It does have some logic to it, as they would be the biggest economic entity not currently under attack if the clans first take Terra. The CC would lack a lot of things. But if Walterly is going to run, the DC would be her first choice. And that would include taking the Comguard with her, so it would boost the DCMS with auxilary forces that includes warships. This is also if Comstar doesn't splinter from the decision.
Katherine not being a warrior, would be the worse person during this time. She would NOT have the advantage of dealing with Vlad in a non warfare way. It is very possible the Falcons would stop her from getting thru their area to even begin to travel to another clan.
And Victor would be in the LC area as that is where the fight will be even if the clans reach Terra. So unless Katherine is in the FS portion, she will not inherit a throne. This is probable even if Victor dies in combat.
Again, the lack of reading the books word for word shows up. They do discuss the issue of supplies in the canon books. This is why Ulric was telling the others involved in the invasion that they were short on supplies even before they left the home worlds. This very reason is why the Wolves started running ahead of the others. IT WAS WRITTEN.
Karagin. Pick a spot you think might be a good point to divert from, and we can go from there. Otherwise, it might get a bit confusing jumping between different views. Maybe even setting up some different threads to discuss the changes from each potential time line varience.
Edited by ghostrider (07/29/22 12:19 PM)
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Karagin
07/29/22 12:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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And here we are back to his ALT is better. Show us the ALT Requiem.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/22 09:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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You know that the canon storyline is following an outline to go from start to middle to end, like all stories are supposed to do according to language classes that deal with creative writing.
So the wolves were supposed to be the 'heroes' of the clans before the invasion was even written up. It isn't like the developers just threw something together and said let the dice decide what would happen.
There are some battles that would cause someone to question that thought.
This is someone that flunked my primary language classes. I hated english in school.
The IS was written to stop the initial clan invasion. This, along with things like the warships being useless for the most part was written that way. The bombing of Turtle Bay was written to cause hatred for the Jaguars, and the reason why they were targeted in the canon line. ALL part of their outline.
So if others want to join in and start some what if lines, plus chime in. We could do several threads diverting from canon with some specific points, or just some general concepts.
Examples like Phelan dying or escaping the initial contact with Vlad for instance. Same thing with Hohiro. Maybe the clans brought in more supplies, or even decided they had too many, and left more forces behind. More clans being used, or having those that lost continue to challenge with trials of refusal, or grievance. Maybe even those left behind taking the items left behind by the invading clans could be done.
The only thing is staying away from already made alts, unless others have read the material, so they can be confirmed or denied to following the thoughts.
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Karagin
07/29/22 10:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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Ghostrider, I will get back to you on things, I need to give things a good look over and figure out where I think things could diverge and still make sense. Might have a few ideas or so.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 12:21 AM
45.51.181.83
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Not a problem. I would prefer something that makes sense.
Even if it takes a few paragraphs or even responses to get to a point.
I was hoping to get some others on the site to chime in with ideas or points that could have changed the set up. Even if it was slightly before the clan invasion, such as showing Comstar was moving towards trying to take over the IS by force, before the clans showed up. We know they become political in IS power struggle with the 4th war fake raid and interdiction, then again before the 3039 war.
More possible scenarios could include someone in Comstar, such as a future WOB informant, giving out information about Comstar working with some new (old) force, tipping the clans ability to block information they were even there. Even starting a full fledged civil war within Comstar, without WOB showing up. Or even having WOB show up, but not go down the Jihad path. That doesn't mean they would be helping the IS with the clans.
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Requiem
07/30/22 05:04 AM
1.147.82.21
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What is required – A detailed time-line of the events that led up to, as well as the immediate subsequent events – Do you have this ALT created for us to see yet or are you expecting others to do it for you?
As stated from the beginning the clan invasion is very poorly written, hence, there are many stories that should have been included and yet were not, and what we are subjected to is an incoherent diatribe.
Camelot Command is one such story that was lost – as per my forum on the subject – the utilization of this space fortress was lost due to TPTB’s inability to understand or implement this facility into the wider war.
Depending on how things go ….
It could end up being every Clan Vs. every IS House and Com-Guard – with a massive number of battles conducted all over the world and in space …. It all comes down to how you want this to devolve into in your own Alt.
For example … Belters - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Belters how were they conquered by the Clans … and how are TPTB staying out of a second legal fight, this time with Amazon, whom (I believe) own The Expanse (TV Series)?
Counter attacks with what? – once again we have those who do not comprehend what is going on?
What units have survived to this period of time? Each ALT can provide a different assessment of what is remaining … so how many you have will not be the same I have.
As for the IS Houses they would have to act like Russians – fall back build new factories in Siberia for example (i.e. the Periphery) … then rebuild their army and re-engage.
At this sage I would also like to reiterate – WoB’s 5 hidden worlds as well as their advanced tech – where is at this point in time – are we going to introduce these? Or are we just going to ignore this altogether.
Again, assumption comes thru by the same person, due to the fact that others do not provide a comprehensive explanation as to their ALT.
Yeah. Using the established route from the home worlds to the IS (No, to the outskirts of Terra) would be totally embarrassing.
Waterly running to the FWL and not the DC? – how would the DC which is non secular and militant react to her arrival – badly would be an understatement. Whereas travelling to the FWL, and the real and fake Mariks they have the ability to be welcomed by the state and has the ability to rebuild, whereas this cannot be seen to exist if you travel to the DC (especially if they know that ComStar initially aided the Clans in their invasion – if they conducted recons upon captured worlds and were able to remove POWs with specific knowledge – or Clan personnel)
Katherine not being a warrior, would be the worse person during this time.
Sorry but this once more demonstrates a lack of thought.
She has how many generals to assist her in how to wage war including – Nondi Steiner, Kell etc just like how many civilian leaders throughout history.
She also understands administration and propaganda (just like her mother who would be alive at this stage and helping her as the assassination would not have occurred) – thus the ability to keep hope alive is incredibly important at this stage.
Just have a look at Churchill and how he kept the people together during the dark period of war when Germany took France – what was his military experience?
Then compare this to Victor and his “great” military experience during the initial stages of the war – incompetent does not begin to explain how useless he is, he has no understanding of economics or administration so how useless is he?
They do discuss the issue of supplies in the canon books …. Sorry but no they do not!
How were each Clan’s fleet organized – how many ships did each Clan Have – how many cargo dropships did they have - When did ships depart / arrive – when were the space stations established along the route to remove each sections coordinates from the navi computers and replace them with the new coordinates – how was this undertaken – what cargo did each of these fleet contain – how many sibko graduates did they contain – what tonnage of consumables did they have – how was these distributed amongst all the clan forces and the list of questions goes on and on … all of which are never answered!
Why because once you understand this then you can easily quantify that the Clan Invasion of IS was impossible due to the fact that the Clan Home Worlds could never supply the quantity available and in a timely manner to re-supply their invasion ….
So the statement “It was Written” is a complete fallacy.
So the Wolves were supposed to be the ‘heroes’ of the Clans – ever heard of the concept of establishing a surprise ending?
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The IS was written to stop the initial clan invasion. This, along with things like the warships being useless for the most part was written that way. The bombing of Turtle Bay was written to cause hatred for the Jaguars, and the reason why they were targeted in the canon line. ALL part of their outline.
And in so doing created a very poorly written invasion that destroyed any hope of manufacturing an epic in which there could have been a vast number of alternatives for the reader and gamer alike …
In all ALT the story can change to suit the gamers … and yet if some state their belief they become pariahs …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 11:01 AM
45.51.181.83
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I don't have an alt so much as what the group plays with each unit. There is no set environment, as each game is different from the others. As each campaign has a far different outcome, there is no set alt. With that said, I am not looking for someone to write one with this topic. I am curious on how different things could have happened, and the effects of it.
There is no push for an alt, as there is no one fix for the game.
I am not writing an alt. I do not expect anything except getting some other views of things with this.
Poorly written and not believable are not one and the same. The invasion does what it was meant to do. As we have yet to see the self proclaimed 'perfect, only viable alternative' to the canon story line, there is nothing to compare it to, besides each persons playing with their group. For that, there isn't a real need for a story line, except for maybe the gm. Ours sets up our missions and we go from there. As we don't talk to the house leaders, their names don't really matter. We either take a job or decline it.
Right to your alt for more Bovine Excrement? The writers did not understand that the FC could not hold Camelot Command in a story they wrote. A warship parked at the station is more then enough to make sure it would never be used by the IS, as wiping out all dropships and possibly jumpships that come in range. The FC could not continue to support it, and any fixes would give the Falcons a working station for little cost. Yeah. That is definitely excrement.
The lack of understanding that not every unit was sent to the clan front line shows up yet again. I know you continue to say they all should have been sent, given these responses. The loses to the IS forces is not total annihilation. There are a lot of units that were garrisoned on worlds all across the IS. Those on the TC border for instance. New ones are formed as well. I did not see a list of every unit the DC/FC had destroyed during the invasion.
So yeah. Your responses show, yet again, you don't understand the entire situation. This is not about making an alt. Get that thru your head. If you can't, stop posting here.
You mean Comstar's 5 hidden worlds? WOB did not exist as an entity at the beginning of the invasion. As Karagin pointed out, the information from Camelot Command would have shown those worlds, and that is IF they clans didn't already have them in their maps from the SL. They had full access to the HPG network, and could very well have seen what was, and wasn't showing on the maps thru Comstar.
Miss the part that the DC would be hurting badly from the invasion and 50 plus regiments along with warship support would change their views quickly? That the DC needed reinforcements desperately, and Comstar was the one to help get them reinforcements before the 3039 war? Comstar had inside information on where clan forces were and strengths? That Comstar had the tech to build warships as well as the resources to build new factories rather quickly? Yeah. Some logic is missing yet again.
Little fact that is overlooked. The initial invasion had Hanse running the FC, and Nondi being the one losing territory due to her lack of understanding them. Katherine is very much the wrong person to be in charge, and since Melissa and Hanse were alive, this point is moot. It is very possible she would not have a throne to seize. Depending on how things went, Tharkadd was a target much like Luthien was. The main thing is time. When would it happen?
And with that, Nondi only used the Steiner generals, ignoring the FS ones. With Hanse and then Victor, they would have used all the generals to battle the clans. Those very ones you are touting for Katherine. A little more thought would have shown this.
Go and reread the books word for word. Ulric DID indeed talk to the other clans telling them their supplies were too low. They ignored him. This very sort of thing is why I don't believe you read the books. That is in game story, not the GM version to let you know what is going on, which does say the clans did not bring the supplies needed to fight this war. It definitely showed up during Tukiyudd.
The list of cargo ships was never released.
The stations were being built during the trials of position for the invasion, with the last ones being built as the clans reached the periphery, which is where the clans stopped and set up the fight for the periphery worlds. It does state that they paused the movement to give the warriors time to rest a little from the trip from the homeworlds and let the stations get finished.
As for military forces they brought, there were source books written up that had the complete TO&E for the invading forces. This includes the warships they brought as well as the dropships and jumpships.
Surprise! The clans took Terra later on in the story line.
Now remove the concept of an alt from your responses, or stop posting on this thread. This is not about promoting something no one is going to see. You have to try and get threads shut down bringing up this because the threads that are dedicated to your alt don't get much traffic. I am tired of this shutting down threads.
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Karagin
07/30/22 06:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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Okay, here are two areas we could do a POD for this:
Phelan makes a break for it shortly after they are one of the Rahaslhauge worlds or runs to a ComStar HPG center, not realizing ComStar is working with the Clans. Still, the local Station Precentor sees the chance to score a coup with the inner circles of ComStar and Morgan Kell and hides Phelan, who is then returned to daddy. Things go from there. Details can be stored out.
The second part is there is no Tuykiad fight. Instead, the Clans just keep pushing forward, Ulric is ilClan since the new vote, the secondary Clans (Vipers and Cats and Horses and Sharks) are brought in, and the flanks expand as they push for their corridor and try to outflank each other to Terra, surprise the Wolves make it. The fighting is brutal as a combined ComStar/Fed-Com/FWL force tries to stop them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 06:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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The questions start with how Walterly deals with hiding Phelan from the clans. If she finds out, does she inform Ulric and return Phelan, or does she go with hiding him from the clans?
I would also think, that if she goes with hiding him, she would have ROM interrogate him for any information he might have on both the clans and the FC.
Returning him would score some points with the Clans, though Ulric would be embarrassed from Phelan getting away from him. Also, it would remove any sort of power Phelan might have gained at that point.
This also has some issues with the return of Natasha Kerensky, as his actions would cause a lot of problems with her return, or with her current status depending on how late in the invasion he skipped out.
Honestly, almost all scenarios would not have the Tukkyid fight. There would be no real reason for the clans to accept that challenge, as them making it to Terra would suggest there were almost no set backs at all.
One main event could change the entire history that needs to be addressed. Tyra and the suicide run. Depending on how things are going, would the circumstance of the encounter even happen? The attack on the capital may well have happened sooner, or the entire defense force for the FRR leadership might have been taken out, or diverted elsewhere.
Though if the clans did accept and win because they were more ready, that means they owned Terra, but not the systems between Tukkiyud and Terra. So getting there is still the issue. There would also be a major fight between the clans as each involved would have claimed to be the victors, and someone would have to come out on top to be the Ilclan.
The issue with Tyra's suicide run would determine if Ulric was even put into a position to be elected. Leo Showers may not have died, as the attack may not have happened.
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Requiem
07/30/22 07:38 PM
1.147.82.21
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Without a set environment how are you expected to compare apple time lines with other apple timelines – depending on remaining forces will determine how the IS will react to the Clan takeover of Terra.
Also depending whom is at the helm of each IS state will determine how they react to the takeover of Terra.
The invasion does what it was meant to do – in establishing a clan presence – yes it did – in creating a multitude of new gaming scenarios that would make the game more exhilarating to play as well as creating a realistic invasion / response – in this it failed bigtime!
Camelot Command – actually the FC could have held it, and if it looked like they couldn’t then why didn’t they just destroy the facility so no one could have it? Where is the realism?
First it is within a nebula – so how are your sensors operating?
Second it maintains a screen of attack drones
Third where are the IS pocket warship dropships as well as warships in later years
Fourth what happens when you place multiple aerospace fighter squadrons there all armed with ship killer nuke missiles?
Fifth placing nuclear mines equipped with ship detection equipment within the nebula is a real option – as even detonating close to a ship should kill it (despite what he sugar coated rules suggest).
Thus, ‘actually reaching’ Camelot once properly defended is a lot harder than it seems.
Also, as Camelot has a Cameron Star wouldn’t this necessitate that the clans take it intact as it is a cultural artefact with historical relevance – thus the use of naval weapons upon this facility has been banned?
Hence only ground forces are allowed.
There is an anti-mech trench built into the fortress with only narrow entry points this will cause problems
And if this failed the clans are left with a blockade strategy in a nebula … as they are not allowed to scratch the paintwork!
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I did not see a list of every unit the DC/FC had destroyed during the invasion.
So you did not read the after action reports on every world or even go the Invasion Corridor – Clan on Sarna and read this and then look at each unit’s page?
e.g. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Jade_Falcon
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the information from Camelot Command would have shown those worlds
Then can someone please explain why it was so hard to find these ‘newly-found’ worlds on the map post jihad or even during the Jihad as a copy of the computer core of Camelot should be somewhere within the FC – how about NAIS?
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the DC needed reinforcements desperately
And you expect everyone to believe they would accept ComGuard forces? They would be more likely to accept Fed Suns first! Again rebuild and re-arm their own units similar to Russia / China WW2.
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Comstar had inside information on where clan forces were and strengths? That Comstar had the tech to build warships as well
And what happens when someone asks how they came across this information / technology?
They will be asked to share this asap … so will they?
Also doesn’t every house have the resources to build new factories rather quickly?
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The initial invasion had Hanse running the FC, and Nondi being the one losing territory due to her lack of understanding them. Katherine is very much the wrong person to be in charge, and since Melissa and Hanse were alive, this point is moot
Morgan Hasek-Davion is Marshal of the Armies of the AFFC … Nondi is below him in rank.
Katherine is the same as Elizabeth during WW2 …. Suggest actually doing some research …
And yes Melissa and Hanse are still alive … the same as many Royal Families during WW2 etc … so?
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It is very possible she would not have a throne to seize. Depending on how things went
Again do some research first … just because the capitol is taken does not mean that they are no longer in charge – RFR for example or Norway’s monarch during ww2 – was in exile in England ….
And again Nondi was not in charge … also all forces are where they were assigned prior to the Invasion … as how many were actually moved into a better position or created a more defensible position with multiple units on a single world?
Once again, we have a useless story that does not comply with modern military logic!
Also how good is her father during the 4th Succession war – and then in the clan war? And again for Kurita? What we see in the Clan invasion is TPTB putting all the best generals in a box where they are not allowed to interfere with the Clan invasion – again we see a very poorly written storyline that does not allow any of the great generals to actually be themselves and fight the war in a manner that should have decimated the Clans invasion all because the TPTB were on the clans side and wanted to hobble the game in their favour!
So when touting for Katherine – actually do some research first then apply some logic as to what is going on!
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Ulric DID indeed talk to the other clans telling them their supplies were too low. They ignored him.
And how did the supply issue affect the invasion? Not at all – demonstrating a bias towards the Clans!
Also where are the IS forces attacking the Clans Supply convoys as well as their rear supply bases? – none!
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The list of cargo ships was never released.
And take a guess why?
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Surprise! The clans took Terra later on in the story line.
In the most ludicrous of storylines ever constructed that makes no sense whatso ever – and in which many do not ever want to fight in because it is just too badly written to even be considered to make any sense whatsoever!
It is just that badly written!
Question in making a new story is this not a new Alt? … yes it is.
Also my Alt universe is not the same as TPTB’s universe is … I have 13 to 14 major houses …. Also no Star League … no clans etc …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 09:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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This is not about sticking to the canon time line. This thread is not about your alt, or anyone elses. It is a 'what if' concept on how things could have turned out if certain things did/didn't happen.
The FC had the power to destroy Camelot Command? Last I knew, they lost it before they had the supplies and resources there to do more the superficial damage. They could not supply it, which would also mean if they tried to keep forces there, they would slowly starve to death and run out of munitions and such to defend with.
Defense drones? When did that become operational? I don't remember seeing much about them. I would guess after the Falcons started bringing it up to date.
As the game did not have pocket warships at that time, I guess they were still on the drawing board. Like 4 years into the future..
Gee. Place all your aerofighters to guard one facility and give the clans superiority over all worlds. Smart move. They would be more useful in taking down clan warships, dropships, fighters and such.
This thread is not about bringing in tech or changing the rules of the game. So if a nuke is said to tickle people, then it tickles people. Get that thru your skull as well.
Anti mech trenches don't work when you have ships that can hot drop units directly on the facility at any point. This isn't land based combat on this.
And the clans would destroy the base, rather then let the IS spoil it with their filth. Although, they would try to take it at first.
The issue here is time of discovery. We are discussing a point that the year of peace did not happen.
The list of all units destroyed does not include every unit the DC or FC had. None of the Davion Royal guards are there, nor is about 2/3rds the rest of the units they had. I did not see the Dragoons being destroyed, nor the Kell hounds or even most of the Sword of Light units. SO yeah. I guess no counter attacks would happen because everything died in the initial waves.
No one said the computer core from Camelot Command survived intact. The maps being nothing more then confirming what was already there, and for some worlds, they never disappeared from general knowledge. They were listed as glowing nuke dumps.
There is nothing stated that the Dragoons should have had a set of complete maps for the IS when they first came in. They WERE looking for old SL bases. Nothing in the TH would have been left out of those maps.
Comstar has helped the DC in recent history. No matter what the DCMS says, they would have taken the help if the coordinator said to. And before you try, they had to accept the Yakuza when Theodore brought them in.
When did the DC get plans for warships? Much later then Comstar had, as well as Comstar having the knowledge on how to build things like the engines and weapons. This is a war to the death. Given Waterly was raised in the DC, it is more likely she would have went there instead of the FWL.
It is simple about where they got the tech. They owned Terra. A world that no one knew how much information was lost like the rest of the IS. That meant ALL of the ship building in the SOL system. It was being rebuilt after the Amaris war, and no one even tried to attack the Sol system after Comstar got ahold of it.
Plus they showed everyone they had warships a little later in the story. Did the realms demand they give over that information at that point?
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ghostrider
07/30/22 10:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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This statement: And yes Melissa and Hanse are still alive … the same as many Royal Families during WW2 etc … so?
shows you are just trying to start arguments. Hanse and Melissa being alive means Katherine is not in any sort of position to even try and take the FC.
Wow. Hanse did so well in the 4h war, because he had most of the intel as well as feeding his enemy false information, as well as attacking an inferior foe. The lack of intel during the clan invasion as well as fighting units far superior to his own, as well as Nondi interfering with commands as she was in charge of the LC forces, as the agreement went to keep the LC people happy until Victor took the throne, was happening. Try to spin it any way you can, the fact remains that Nondi ran the LC defenses during the clan war.
Also, Comstar making sure intel didn't get out, helped keep the IS off balance.
The logic applied is correct. Katherine was not the person for the clan invasion and was not the leader for anything other then making the civil war happen. Remove the looking glasses from your eyes, and you might be able to see that yourself.
Let's see. Lack of supplies had the clans besides the Wolves slowing down their assault. The fact the clan tech was so dangerous covered for a lot of the missing supplies. Had it not been for the Diamond Sharks, there would have been even more issues.
The lack of listing every ship the clans had available is for a good reason. You still have not provided a list of ships Defiance has, and they control far less then the clans do. They were not needed to name every last thing in the game. The story has issues, but including everything would mean you would have an encyclopedia set to get anywhere. And this would change with every thing that happens. Ship A head back while ship B brings in more supplies.
Get it thru your head. This is not an alternate story line. This is a discussion dealing with a what if. There is NO effort to replace the canon line with anything here. Simple logic yet again, and still you don't seem to understand it.
Put up the alt, or shut up about it. The constant stream of canon being crap, yet you won't show anything to counter it. Just argue.
Just step away from this thread, as it is very obvious, you just want to try and promote something only one person has 'supposedly' seen, as well as argue.
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Karagin
07/31/22 12:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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Hey Requiem, how about you post your ALT so we can see it? Then we can all be on the same page as you. So please post it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/31/22 12:42 AM
70.118.172.64
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Lots of things there with ComStar, they know the Clans are a threat, but we also know Waterly is out of her league in trying to deal with them. She treats them as if they are another Inner Sphere House power base. Something that won't work long-term.
Focht has tried to tell her this, and with no way to have a proxy fight on another planet, he is going to be busy trying to shore up the defense of Terra, so having Phelan there with him or back with Morgan might get him to help in the form of some merc units or support from the Hounds or FedCom units.
Now, if we go with Leo Showers as still the ilKhan by vote and the Wolves take Terra, that could be a whole new thing. First, will he be willing to step down, or will we see a Trial of Position or something happen? Does this mean war between Wolves and Jaguars? Do we see a split between the Clans for good? The Warden Clans vs. the Crusaders?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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