Karagin
08/03/22 01:15 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans brought what they thought they would need, warship-wise, considered their information from the Dragoons, and the captured Explore Corps vessel made it clear the Inner Sphere didn't have warships. Now, if they all brought what is, for the most, a fleet in being a concept, then they had enough to keep each Clan honest and enough firepower to use as needed IF they ran to something they couldn't handle with ground forces. Nothing is saying that a Clan couldn't call up more if they felt they needed them, the Khans of each Clan had control of their logistical systems and such, so if they wanted to, they could call more ships from the homeworld.
Ulric wanted the Inner Sphere to be both a foil and an anvil for the Clans. He wanted it to blunt and then sharpen the Clans so they would see that they were a part of humanity and not above it.
I think the Cats and Vipers would be called in and let loose on the flanks. Thus, the war changes shape, and things move to new fronts, and the Inner Sphere shows that they can handle the changes better than the Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 01:52 AM
45.51.181.83
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One thing to consider with the addition of the Cats and Vipers. Would the existing clans decide to use them to help move the front forward quicker?
Or do as suggested and widen the front by spreading out more?
We know from the books telling us, the IS had the major numbers advantage over the clans, especially if the IS would use their vehicles effectively.
As the Wolves would race ahead, it would be to the other 3 initial clans to focus more on getting to Terra, then spreading out. Which, I guess, we are going to follow with the what if.
Thinking that maybe using crusader sentiment over the wardens could get something like a common goal going.
The attempt for a complete take over can happen after Terra is taken, and the clans find out it wasn't important to the IS.
That is another issue to figure out. Does the IS decide to play ball with the clans once they have Terra, and reform the SL? Or do they ignore the claim and fight on?
Given the books telling us, the reinforcements from just the 4 clans is not enough to really do much about a full take over, and not sure if they can hold the worlds they took, once they got near Terra. The shock of the assault as well as the weapons with Comstar covering for them helped a lot to do some real damage, their warships are about the only thing the IS can't negate with sheer numbers of ground units. They might be able to do something with bringing together some large fighter groups, and speed up the naval weapons dropships, but they still have to move such forces into striking range. The Leopard CV is not going to cut it with bringing in fighter groups.
This is not suggesting the IS gain warships sooner then canon. My opinion on that is the IS warships can remain dead, but this probably won't be the case in the what if.
This also calls into question if the clans have yardships. I would bet they would call them up when their warships start taking damage, as it doesn't sound like much in the IS would be able to fix them.
It also needs to be answered about if the clans keep control of Terra as well.
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Requiem
08/03/22 03:00 AM
1.147.88.67
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what clans do you think would be activated?
The decision, in my opinion, would return to the original bidding process for each of the 17 remaining clans.
On the second day these included …
Steel Vipers – as the reserve clan
And with Diamond Sharks and Nova Cats, who called for a Trial of Refusal for the right to be “next in line” should additional Clans be required.
Thereafter if any additional Clans are required we are either going to have to determine what were the closest bids to Diamond Sharks / Nova Cats or call for a second bidding process …
Clan Coyote would make for a good partner with the Nova Cats.
Clan Snow Raven would be required for Fleet Logistical Transport.
Clan Cloud Cobra – heavy emphasis on the aerospace forces sounds like this could be fun.
Lastly, and most important of all – with the IS resurrecting the Star League and the SLDF I believe the greatest missed opportunity should be considered … reintroduce …
Clan Wolverine, yes they should come out of hiding now!
This could be all the push you need to get more Clans to join the invasion
Can you imagine the bru-ha-ha if Clan Wolverine was on Terra defending it with ComGuard etc. against the Clans – this would make for an interesting scenario.
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Ulric
In all reality I do not believe Ulric would have to prove to the crusaders that the invasion was a bad idea – First, any run into an experienced RCT (or equivalent) should have chewed up most unsupported two to even three trinary group.
Second, in attempting to govern any largely populated world – any Clan no matter how big they are would find this impossible without the assistance of the local population – and given the way the trueborn warriors treat their freeborn this will lead to the third problem …
Third, partisans … they can expect constant terrorist activities on every world they conquer – and given their sociology they will not understand why and when they end up using a heavy hand this will only just intensify the problem.
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did they increase their size by making new ones before they left?
Unless the clan abandons their Sibko Trueborn training regime, and adopts an IS academy style for Freeborns it is quite impossible to increase the size of any Clan rapidly – any major shift in the size of a Clan will take decades to implement!
This is the main problem with the Clan Invasion – replacement personnel – strictly speaking if any Clan suffers a high depletion report they will be unable to replace these personal quickly unless they open the positions to individuals to take their positioning test a second time or allow for mass Freeborns in as warriors – and I really cannot see this happening any time soon.
The only other means is reaving or a Trial of Absorption – both of which can be considered high risk gambits – as well as how do you as an IS Clan undertake such a transference in forces from the IS to the Clan Home worlds to undertake such a trial?
(This is where Jade Falcons / Wolves fall off the rails once mre!)
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The Clans brought what they thought they would need, warship-wise
Consider - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine
Then have a look at Nuke Proofing SLDF Style
Then consider the history of the IS – especially the 1st Succession War and the proliferation of Nukes.
In all reality nukes should have been the main worry for all Clans – given the Barbarians who inhabit the IS they should have believed that these low life individuals would utilize such devious weapons … Thus each Clan should have adopted a need to protect their transports etc from aerospace (nuke) attack.
More ships and more aerospace fighters should have been considered a must by a cautious Khan …
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Nothing is saying that a Clan couldn't call up more if they felt they needed them
As stated many times – if you modify the size of your original bid to invade the IS – Massive loss of honour in the face of the other Clans. So not something to do lightly.
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… so they would see that they were a part of humanity and not above it.
Sorry Ulric, but given the Clans current sociology the only way this was going to occur is if you cut out the tumour – i.e. kill off all Crusaders then modify the internal sociology of all remaining warden Clans – and in all cases this will also mean the destruction of all Iron Wombs for all Clans.
And I really cannot see this happening any time soon!
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would be called in and let loose on the flanks.
Makes for an interesting new dynamic into the invasion and would through the DCMS and the AFFC for a loop initially …
Though how do they catch up given how far they are lagging behind? …
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Would the existing clans decide to use them to help move the front forward quicker?
More to the point how would the Cats / Vipers feel being placed into a support role to assist another Clan to reach Terra first?
Cannot say they would be too thrilled with the idea.
My bet would be they would need to prove themselves – thus widen he front – and Blitzkrieg all the way to the front.
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We know from the books telling us, the IS had the major numbers advantage over the clans, especially if the IS would use their vehicles effectively.
Problem – TPTB rarely if ever allow them into the war.
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As the Wolves would race ahead
This could mean the wolves spring any IS trap first and as a consequence take high damage …
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a common goal going
What happens after the conquest of Terra – the conquest of the IS? However, this is far more of a pain than anything they could have considered.
Given the animosity between the Stay at home and the Inner Sphere Clans – something has got to give sooner or latter – especially when there is also a crusader / warden mix to consider.
Civil War anyone?
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Does the IS decide to play ball with the clans once they have Terra, and reform the SL? Or do they ignore the claim and fight on?
Why would you trust the Clans when they want to make slaves of you through a caste system based on genetic purity – whist at the same time killing off your family history by removing your last name permanently.
This is war to the death of didn’t anyone realise this? – Just like TPTB they forgot this and ended up creating a diatribe series of novels based on substandard logic - which can be seen through their very sub standard characters – Victor in particular!
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My opinion on that is the IS warships
This is a space opera – the more the better. As warships are the king of the battlefield – now if we could jus get some decent rules for them as well as removing the nuke menace.
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if the clans have yard-ships.
Considering the vast distance your logistics fleet are required to travel as well as the vast size of the logistics fleet required to keep the Clans in the field it is a given that there should also be a vast yard-ship fleet to assist located all along the exodus route and within the IS invasion corridor.
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if the clans keep control of Terra as well.
Given the size of the population as well as the history of Terra – The Clans do not have a chance of holding onto Terra once the partisan war commences – IEDs will be a daily occurrence!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/03/22 09:19 AM
70.118.172.64
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I would see the Falcons spreading out some to get an edge somewhat to get around the Wolves and their drive on Terra. So yes, for them, I could see a spreading out to the what be their right flank of their corridor. The Bears would pick up their pace, but they would be pressed against the Jaguars, who would be driving hell bent in towards Terra. Still, at the same time, the Jaguars will be smarting from the stubborn defense of the Combine, and unless we are showing them (Jaguars) differently, they will be itching to get some payback. Clashes with the Bears will happen; Clan trials and such didn't just stop.
I don't see the Inner Sphere playing ball. They will fight. The Houses that survive the opening invasion will regroup, rearm, and start planning their next moves with Terra in the hands of Clan Wolf. This means really nothing overall to the rest of the House lords. They didn't control it before that point, so nothing has changed. What has changed, though, is that a hostile power that now can wield the Clans as a unified force holds the planet along with a large swath of former FC, DC, and FRR worlds. That is what they will see.
There will be another lull in the fighting once the Wolves have Terra since the Clans will need to adjust to the change in who is the new top dog, and the pack sorts itself out. That gives the Houses breathing room, which means they can rearm, regroup and plan. The FC will be as badly hit as the DC so they will be shuffling units around. I still say by this point, the two parts of the FC will be cut off from each other. This could cause issues down the road.
The FWL, regardless of an imposter on the throne, will have a large chunk of former ComStar refugees, makes sense they would flee to the one House that hasn't been their biggest enemy. So the FWL would be digging in and figuring out what to do. The CapCon, well, we saw how dismissive their leaders were on Outreach of the Clans, and if Romano is still running things, then they will be a target for whatever the Clans do next.
The FS side of the FC will be digging in, and I believe Hanse will try to get some of the local Periphery powers to join the fight. It's a long shot, but he might see it as a card to play at this point.
The Combine will be hard-pressed since they will now have the Bears, Wolves, Jaguars, and the Cats to deal with. That means changes will come to their system quicker than planned, and cracks will show. Theodore is going to be dealing with a lot of reactionary factions and officers, which in turn will harm their response to the next wave of fighting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/03/22 09:20 AM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Houses getting warships in any number any sooner than 3065.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 11:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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A thought came up dealing with Phelan.
Since he did have some computer skills, shown by his lockpick, what if he was able to hack into some of the computers where he was at, when part of the bondsmen? That might be a way to get some of the data talked about earlier in the thread.
Once the clans start pushing out from Terra, the FC would be split, IF the clans are successful. They may have to stop with just Terra, as casualties would outstrip reinforcements by the time they got to Terra. I would figure they would reach Terra no sooner then 3054, given the pace they had in canon. But that does lead to issues with the IS warship production.
Comstar was selling the engines to the IS, and with the Sol system now out of their hands, where would the engines come from? It is assumed that the Titan shipyards would be producing them, though it is likely they are made on Terra, and shipped out. So would that, with possibly making a new engine production facility in one of the houses, push back the initial warship release?
I know I have said this before, so it will sound like I am pushing the idea, but the use of naval grade weapons in ground batteries should start popping up on worlds close to Terra and definitely on the capital worlds that could get them.
This would give some stronger defenses against warships getting to worlds, possibly causing the clans to rethink spreading out.
Unless something happens, the Bears would not be much of a threat to the DC once they get to Terra. The Jaguars would have them sealed in, so unless they go thru Jag territory, they are basically out of the game until the DC breaks thru the Jags. This doesn't mean the Bears would be inactive, as if the Jags don't take Terra, it is possible the Bears seal the Jags out of that area, and continue pushing into the chaos march and CC. Maybe even turning further into the FS, if forces permit. The Bears being less of a threat is even more true if the other clans insulate the Jaguars from the rest of the DC.
It is possible the FWL and CC retake some of the Chaos March worlds so they can strike the clans before they start into the main parts of their nations. I would see this as an alternative to the Clans, but not sure about it.
With all the forces garrisoned on worlds, and the surprise attacks now gone, I think the clans would suffer even more losses trying to expand. As vehicles would exact a heavy toll on them. Vehicles like the Alacorn and VTOLs would become more effective then the canon story has them. Also, worlds closer to Terra would have more defensive structures to slow down and distract the clans then some of the worlds closer to the Periphery border.
Dedending on the speed, repairs for the omnis would be showing, as resources should be stretched. In canon, they were showing during the Tukiyud fight. Unless that is cleared up, they would be really hurting by the time they hit Terra.
And thinking about it, the Diamond Sharks would be getting rich, as they would see, they were supplying most of the clans with supplies. This would definitely raise issues with those having to buy them. I could see trials of possession being called against the Sharks supply ships.
This could also be a reason why the wolves get to Terra, as the others could very well have such a supply shortage, they couldn't make it in time to stop the Wolves.
And this is assuming we are using the Wolves to take Terra. I would think it might be a decent idea to have a clan or two not make it within 10 jumps of Terra. This could mean only the Wolves or maybe one other clan would make it.
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Karagin
08/03/22 01:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Bears allowing themselves to be cut off by the Jaguars. I see them pushing just as hard to get something that puts them close to Terra. One thing I do see happening, though is both the Falcons and the Jaguars getting frustrated by the guerrilla fighting that the FC/LC and the DC will use to tie down both second-line and front-line troops. Those two Clans will be harder pressed to deal with such things as they are harshed on the civilian populations than the Wolves or Bears.
The Sharks would see everything as manta from Kerensky himself. They would be hot on the tails of the invasion ready and wait with ships loaed with parts and ammo, and other things the invading Clans will need. They will be very quick to get deals in place with all four Clans and have such in place already with the Vipers and Cats.
Yes, I could see that if the Sharks have a pre-planned supply route in place with Ulric, that he bargined for ahead of time, then no one can fault him for planning smarter. They will trying but who can really fault a commander for being prepared?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 03:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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The clans leaders did laugh at Ulric while he was getting far more supplies then the other three. Not sure if that number would be combined or not, but he did have more items in route during the invasion. This is part of what drove the other clans crazy in canon. There was no pause to refit and reinforce. The Wolves were doing that as the battles ended, not during the pause between waves. The larger count of worlds they would attack showed the other clans up. Once those were taken, the non participating clans would have seen Ulric was a better leader for that.
I could see the sharks actually gaining worlds from their supply runs. Simply charging enough to bargain for worlds in order for the purchase of supplies.
The inclusion of the Cats and Vipers would lighten the load on the Jaguars and Falcons, as they would be flanking some defenders. This might lead to increased political pressure on the Jaguars and Falcons to push to much and start making some mistakes, or just having damaged equipment being part of yet another push, meaning them losing battles and salvage. This could be used to help bring the DC/FC tech up to clan levels. This could be used to remove the clans if the story leads in that direction, or inflict even more damage on the flankers. It may well cause a stalemate around Terra when the clans take it.
Depending on when the clans take Terra, I can see a push by the Jaguars and Cats to push into the FS portion, in order to secure a world near Terra. The Bears would make sure they had one, and it might mean pushing 'east or right' on the map to do so. They may even push south far enough to engage the CC in order to do this.
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Requiem
08/03/22 05:09 PM
1.147.88.67
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I would see the Falcons spreading out … their right flank of their corridor.
Question, where are the falcons going to get the forces necessary to garrison these worlds and at the same time retain enough forces to drive on Terra?
Problem – Every Clan has a limited number within their TO&E Touman.
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The Bears and Jaguars … would be driving hell bent towards Terra.
Yes, I agree, every Clan would be attempting a blitzkrieg strategy the closer they get to Terra.
However, the issue is how would the IS be reacting to this?
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I don't see the Inner Sphere playing ball. They will fight.
YES!
When can we finally say that the IS will finally have a come to god moment and realise that attractional warfare is the only way to bleed the Clans dry – Given the principle of Sibkos for replacement personnel as well as the impossibility of maintaining any garrison on a high partisan world (such as any DC and FRR world) – the Clans must sooner or later realise that they are ill equipped to remain within the IS … this nonsense of holding every world with a Vichy government must be recognised for the lunacy it is!
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will regroup, rearm
YES!
A new SL with a new SLDF – urgency to assist one another …
Reverse engineer clan weapons
Some type of Grey Death Legion power Armour
Infantry weapon to combat the Toad / Elemental.
IS Omni Mech / Fighter
IS warships
At the very minimum ….
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There will be another lull in the fighting once the Wolves have Terra
What is this a children’s game for the Clans and the IS?
Sorry, but no … by the time any Clan reaches Terra their overall available forces must be incredibly depleted – remember they have a limited available forces due to the initial bid – so unless they can find additional forces from somewhere their ability to hold anything is next to nil.
(A simple excel sheet proves this!)
So if you want any Clan to hold Terra first you have to identify whare the additional forces are coming from and how the clans are addressing the issue of replacement personnel through a sibko system.
May I suggest that the winner is Clan Jade Wolf – with a reduced fiefdom to free up units for the final drive towards Terra?
Also if the Clans stop I cannot see the IS stopping – just because the remaining Clans are having an existential moment doesn’t mean the IS need to follow suit.
Yes I agree both the FC and the DC will be badly hit – however both have access to academy systems as well as national service conscription if necessary, and they both have access to a massive military industrial complex for vehicles and fighters (at the minimum).
Thus the question is can the Clans sustain a loss of warriors at the same rate as that of the IS – the sibko systems says they will break sooner or later! Whereas any leader who is on par with Stalin to a loss of people (Katherine and Theodore) will just see this as a mathematical issue … WW1 trench warfare / Stalingrad anyone?
The FWL should join the new SL and the SLDF – thus sooner or later their forces should be used to reinforce the beleaguered AFFC, DCMS, ComGuard, FRRM and mercs. The question is when do you slot them in?
As for the CC – two choices
First, they were removed from the board n 3039 and Sun-Tzu is now attempting a coup within St. Ives to reform the CC.
Second, due to the 4th Succession War only a small CC remain on the board – as such either Romano or Sun-Tzu have decided this is not their problem and they will have nothing to do with this rump SL and SLDF, whist at the same time they are attempting to build a fortress CC with a massive new military … for in reality they are running scared of the Clans inwardly.
The FS – just like the FWL they will be churning out massive numbers of military products and new units due to their massive military industrial complex and academy systems …
The Periphery – due to their geographical location, lack of any real industries and absolute loathing for anything and anyone IS will have nothing to do with Hanse’s request for assistance. That is unless Hanse can sweeten the pot with something that will change their mind – Education, and Military and Civilian Industries to get them back on par with the IS?
Could the combine and Lyran states be on the verge of collapse due to loss of forces? Flip a coin?
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Warships
In all reality if you don’t want a nuclear war in space IS vs Clan then you have little choice but to allow the IS have warships way-way earlier – 3050 to 3051.
However, if I had my way the IS should have started during the latter half of the 3040’s.
Though I doubt many would agree with me.
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Phelan
Question – how is he going to get the stolen information to the IS?
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Comstar was selling the engines to the IS, and with the Sol system now out of their hands, where would the engines come from?
How about some simple logic – if the IS cam make Jump-ship engines then they can sure as hell make warship engines at the same time!
The idea that ComStar has a monopoly on warship engines is a bit beyond the pale.
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the use of naval grade weapons in ground batteries should start popping up
Agree.
Problem is they are fixed emplacement weapon systems for all intense and purposes – have a look at D-Day as well as the Maginot line for how effective fixed emplacement weapons are.
Usually they are seen as the height of human hubris … and a waste of resources – as what is their arc of fire? Can mech’s / commandoes get in under this and take them out?
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It is possible the FWL and CC retake some of the Chaos March worlds so they can strike the clans
As above – FWL will become a member of SL and SLDF sooner or later – thus will be allowed into the corridor to take on the clans. – The CC are another matter altogether.
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With all the forces garrisoned on worlds, and the surprise attacks now gone, I think the clans would suffer even more losses trying to expand. As vehicles would exact a heavy toll on them.
Agree.
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Depending on the speed, repairs for the omnis would be showing, as resources should be stretched.
Agree.
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the Diamond Sharks would be getting rich, as they would see, they were supplying most of the clans with supplies.
And when will the other clans either censure or outright attack them for being merchants rather than being warriors – sooner or later other Clan’s warriors will view this Clan as being an anathema to Kerensky’s vision especially when they are getting rich whist all the others are on a sacred mission to liberate Terra from the Barbarians!
Something will have to give, in regards to, the growing enmity towards this this Clan’s mercantile practices.
And yes if the Wolves (or Jade Wolves) do not have an adequate transport system I can see other clans using the Sharks as their cats paw to slow things down to gain a competitive advantage.
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One thing I do see happening, though is both the Falcons and the Jaguars getting frustrated by the guerrilla fighting that the FC/LC and the DC will use to tie down both second-line and front-line troops. Those two Clans will be harder pressed to deal with such things as they are harsher on the civilian populations
Agree – and as a consequence the harsher they get the more partisans and IEDs are used … something will have to give one way or another. In all likelihood – mass atrocities by the Clans on the civilian populations as this is all the Clans know – yet as a consequence how will he IS and the other Clans react o this barbaric show of force?
Can anyone say Jihad on Clans?
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he did have more items in route during the invasion. This is part of what drove the other clans crazy
Then were are the mass trials to take these away from the Wolves and at the same time slowing the Wolves progress through the use of this tactic?
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The inclusion of the Cats and Vipers would lighten the load on the Jaguars and Falcons
Yes, however, dependent upon how successful their blitzkrieg into the IS.
If they are stopped then the pressure is back on the Jaguars and Falcons.
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Depending on when the clans take Terra, I can see a push by the Jaguars and Cats to push into the FS portion, in order to secure a world near Terra.
Every Clan would want a fiefdom near Terra – for example, a consolation prize would be Tau Ceti – humanity’s first manned mission to another star system should be considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 09:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny how someone is told to leave a conversation, yet thinks the thread is for their views.
Syntax was mentioned and yet it seems the person that originally used the word, does not seem to understand it.
Putting in statements on how things have to go, then getting upset when they are told the time line hasn't been set, shows a lack of simple understanding. Most would simply ask about things, not state things as fact that they have no clue on.
Logic failures coming to full effect.
It was stated the Tukiyud fight does not happen. It was also stated that Vlad does not rise to power. Yet some how the chain of events, the fight, Ulric being accused of treason, the falcon-wolf war, the ambush of Ulric by the falcon khans does not happen, yet the idea that the Jade Wolves become a focus for who takes Terra.
If the person read the thread, and comprehended things, this would not have appeared. Yet is does.
The suggestion that all IS members form a new SL shows another attempt to force their views into this. The only reason why the canon story has the SL formed was to attack the clans home worlds. This is about the clans taking Terra. Even if the FWL and CC wanted to make one, it would not happen. The clans would make it as they take Terra. If the IS tried to make one, it would bring in all the clans to remove the houses. But as this what if hasn't gotten far enough to deal with that, it is nothing.
Another logic fail that showed up is the warship engines. The transit drive was not produced in any of the succession states, which meant Comstar had the monopoly on it. With the fall of Terra, that would mean no transit drive production in the IS until a new factory could be made, or the clans built one.
The person suggesting that it could be, did not actually look up what was missing, so assumed it was a jump drive.
In October 3056, ComStar's First Circuit decided to allow the sale of transit drives for WarShips (which only the ComStar-controlled Rolls-Royce factories on Terra could produce at the time) to both the Draconis Combine and the Federated Commonwealth.
That is under the heading of Warship in the wiki.
As this thread is suggesting 3065 as being the first warship produced, this is yet another attempt to put in things that those making the what if did not ask for.
This person was asked to leave the conversation, partly due to not knowing Syntax of writing, nor etiquette of how to state things. Asking, when you don't know, and demanding things be done their way is why.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 09:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question comes to mind, when do some of the clans realize they can not reach Terra without becoming so weak, they can not even attempt to defend themselves?
This is also why the question of the other clans 'assisting' the Falcons/Jaguars comes to mind. The Wolves have a pass if the Falcons and Jaguars continue to soak up the counter attacks, with the Bear performing the same thing on the eastern flank.
The original story gave the wolves an easier path.
Granted, one they were out of the FRR, then resistance would dramatically rise. The FC/DC border region would be so much more difficult then the FRR was.
I would think that reserves would start showing as inefficient to meet the demands, so the reavening would happen sooner, or maybe 'hiring' another clan to secure the route, while the main forces move forward would need to happen.
The question is if the original agreement for taking Terra was only available to the initial clans that could invade were the only ones that could.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 09:25 PM
45.51.181.83
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Damn cat wanted smashy love. She tries to break your nose by slamming her head into you..
The question about who can take Terra would cause problems, such as if the Cats or Vipers did so in the original story line. I can see the Falcons and Jaguars throwing a major fit, as they took a nasty hit before the other two just showed up to steal their glory. Any additional clans could bring this up in the what if.
But that could be useful as well. Say the home clans got tired of the invasion clans 'taking their time' so decide to get involved in the race without a new bid or trials. This could also be used a little later as well. The home clans hitting the invasion clans for forcing them out of contention.
This would also be keeping with the clans trials of possession, as the invading clans would no longer be off limits because of the invasion and would just be challenging for property.
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Karagin
08/03/22 09:55 PM
70.118.172.64
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They can throw a fit, but since they didn't take Terra, that's all they can do. And recall, the Falcons of this time are more political than they are currently. So they will try and plot and scheme, but they won't have the pull since the Wolves are on Terra and thus have the larger stick to wield. The Jaguars will still be smarting from NOT taking Terra, losing at Wolcott, and having worlds that are not pacified. The same can also be applied to the Falcons, with Twycross being their big black eye. The Bears will likely support the Wolves fully. And if we follow along, they are already planning their coup of moving entirely into whatever they carve out the invasion, so they are not trying to bring attention to themselves.
Now the Home Clans will be the wild card; that is something we need to figure out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 10:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Bears might have an issue with bringing in their people. Do they try to colonize all the worlds along the route, or stick with a smaller area?
It is almost worth discussing them trading away some worlds to other clans for resources, such as having factories built in their area. They did trade the with the Ravens for the ships.
The home clans might be activated to help take Terra. Or as I said, a reavening might have to happen, as replacements for those lost in the long assault to get to and take Terra. No matter how good things went, it isn't likely they would have enough to control their worlds like they need to. I can definitely see the other invasion clans trying to rip into their worlds along the route.
Maybe some of those worlds might be given to the others, or lightly garrisoned so the entire clans could be brought into the IS. Granted, they could do as the suggestion of the Bears. Maybe sell or trade worlds for services, such as parts to make or fix factories in the Sol system.
But this brings up the deal for the initial invasion.
Does the deal mean just Terra is the Ilclans possession? Or the entire Sol system?
I didn't see anywhere in the agreement just what it covered. The Titan shipyards would definitely be something the Snow Ravens would crave. An SL shipyard in the birth system.
Would there be a fight for the other worlds in the Sol system? Like Venus and Mars?
Time line still needs some work. Does Ulric become Ilkhan when he takes Terra, or does something happen before hand?
We did say Tukiyud doesn't happen, and even Tyra's suicide run wasn't said if it would happen or not. Remember. If Tyra did still take the run, that would mean all on the bridge are dead if Phelan escapes before then.
I guess the run is more important then I thought. Without it, Ulric remains just wolf khan. That is if Leo isn't removed because of the orbital bombardment, which is iffy at best.
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Requiem
08/03/22 10:52 PM
1.158.145.47
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Quote:
Clan Jade Wolf
I find it amazing how assumptions are made from slightest of information – the only information supplied is the assumption that the Wolves and Falcons could unite in a joint endeavour to win Terra – what was not supplied is how and why.
Your comprehension and assumption is that it will occur under the same canon circumstances, when in reality it could be due to a multitude of different circumstances for a multitude of different cast members.
Oh, how quick to cut me to the quick and paint me as the canon villain! When all that was required was a simple question to clarify the situation.
Quote:
transit drive
And here again I was under the impression this was a what if forum – separate from canon specifics.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kearny-Fuchida_Drive
If you want to go down that path, however, the following is also stated, “Following the discovery of the Helm Memory Core, this science has begun to recover, and new designs have begun to be produced.”
So how much the IS Houses now know about manufacturing new KF drives can be considered to be speculative, as they also do have the funding for the research if necessary.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Feng_Huang
Introduced 3058
Also stated, “the Capellan Confederation further upgraded the Necromo Shipyards to the point where WarShips could be constructed completely on site.”
In not paying attention “constructed completely on site” can be said to include the KF drive.
Thus, if the Capellan Confederation can complete this why not the entire IS?
Also can someone fix the Warship site as others are supplying contradictory information.
Quote:
The original story gave the wolves an easier path.
And yet the Political reason was … (not including that their loyalties were suspect.)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
“the Grand Council there was a unanimous vote that Clan Wolf had to participate in this historic occasion … forcing the Wolf Clan to participate in an invasion it had fought so long to prevent was just retribution.”
“IlKhan Showers decreed that Clan Wolf would be assigned to the Beta Corridor, which ran mostly through the Rasalhague Republic,”
“The insults were unmistakable. Clan Wolf was denied the chance to operate on the flanks of the attack, a historical honour in Clan warfare, and straddled with fighting a weak opponent against whom little glory could be won in defeating.”
Quote:
maybe 'hiring' another clan to secure the route
The goal is to become first to take Terra – and thus become ilClan and ilKhan in perpetuity.
And you wish to sully this historical achievement with the knowledge that you had to ‘hire’ assistance to win as you were unable to achieve this own your own! Oh, how the mighty Clan’s warriors have fallen to the mercantile caste.
suggest looking at Huntress and when asked to allow non warriors to participate in their defence - and told categorically under no circumstances.
Quote:
The question is if the original agreement for taking Terra was only available to the initial clans that could invade were the only ones that could.
The answer is whomever can take and hold Terra first wins. So once in the great game you are in all the way!
Quote:
if the Cats or Vipers did so in the original story line. I can see the Falcons and Jaguars throwing a major fit
Diddums to Falcons or Jaguars … if either the Cats or Vipers made it first they have no choice but recognise them as ilClan and ilKhan!
Quote:
Say the home clans got tired of the invasion clans 'taking their time' so decide to get involved in the race
During the actual invasion to Terra.
Sorry but if they did they are spitting on the traditions as laid down by Kerensky. This is quite unthinkable – they would be no better than the Wolverines if they undertook such an action!
Only way in is if the ilKhan allows all clans to participate and it is also ratified by the council.
After the capture of Terra, well that is another matter entirely ...
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
Includes the following, “The initial goal was to conquer sufficient worlds as to serve as a springboard for the conquest of the Inner Sphere as a whole.”
To achieve this lofty goal would require the resources of ALL the Clans. Hence post determination of ilClan and ilKhan all clans would from that point on be allowed to undertake a second invasion with the purpose of conquering their own personal fiefdoms from the remnants of the Great Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/04/22 12:11 AM
70.118.172.64
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I see the Bears doing what they did in the canon TL. They bring their holdings and people to the worlds they have taken in their corridor, set up their new Dominion, and go from there.
If we are going with the Vipers and Cats coming in, then some of the other Home Clans might try and do things on their own, which in turn might get violent actions of reprimand from one or more of the Invading Clans. Remember, they will still honor Clan doctrine and law and all that.
I believe that once he conquers and holds the planet, he is ilKhan, the Wolves, and the ilClan. By Clan Law, all that Nicholas put in place.
The kamikaze run by Tryia is essential, and I think we need that event for sure, and the Turtle Bay event can stay. The truce is gone, though. It never made much sense to start with. We are on a good path to having an interesting chat on things. I like the discourse of things. We have had several paths and ideas. Each is given attention, and we can even come back to some to see if they fit or not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 01:04 AM
45.51.181.83
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So what about Phelan? His being on the Dire Wolf bridge was what saved Ulric. Will that still happen? Or will someone else pull Ulric off?
Or will something happen that is entirely different?
Having more the one path is fine. I like the idea that there are multiple things that can happen, with some circumstances producing more then one result, or more then one way to proceed. It is also possible someone other then Tyra does the run. It could be a near miss, which sends shrapnel through out the bridge the does in Leo, without breaching the armor.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 01:26 AM
45.51.181.83
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And yes if the Wolves (or Jade Wolves) do not have an adequate transport system I can see other clans using the Sharks as their cats paw to slow things down to gain a competitive advantage.
Nothing here suggests the Falcons teaming up with the wolves to take Terra. Not that those two clans would ever team up, which given all the crap spewed about the mongol way of the clans.
As in normal fashion, you leave out the information that changes the entire context of a statement. Using data received and/or stolen from the Word of Blake and Free Worlds League respectively, the Capellan Confederation further upgraded the Necromo Shipyards to the point where WarShips could be constructed completely on site.
You specifically left out the part where they said the data received and/or stolen from Word of Blake and the Free Worlds League. Since WOB did not break off from Comstar in this discussion, the ship yards would not have been upgraded.
Also the lie of saying the jump drive was the issue trying to use canon material, and being told it was the transit drive, then adding in that this thread does not have to follow canon, while leaving out the fact you were told to leave, which means we do not want your input into this, seems to have you continuing to put in your vision where it is not wanted. As being told to leave, that should tell you it is not asked for either.
Hire assistance also means having to purchase supplies from another due to the inability to plan out what you need doesn't fall under shame, the having someone that wasn't even allowed to participate to gain a few worlds in the IS isn't.
So the Sharks could have won the position by landing on Terra, and seizing it, even though they were not part of the active clans doing so? Any home clan could rush in and steal the position?
Again, more stupid crap of not thinking before posting things. No one said they were waiting until they got to Terra. They could well have started their runs as soon as the wolves started pulling away from the others. So about 2nd wave. Again the assumptions show logic is not your strong point.
Now so this is absolutely clear. LEAVE THE THREAD. You pointless crap just shows you are here to just argue.
Maybe NO REQUIEMS ALLOW has to be posted on the thread.
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Requiem
08/04/22 06:43 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
They bring their holdings and people to the worlds they have taken in their corridor
Problem – Leviathan Heavy Transport (introduced 3055) Crew – 250,000 passengers.
How many Leviathan ships are available, and how many round trips will be required to ensure a sufficient complement of freeborn are transported? Though there remains one major problem. The comparable population of the IS to that of the Clans, when multiple (a great number in fact) worlds within the IS have a greater population than that of individual Clans there remains the issue of how an individual Clan can maintain order over these vast number of IS worlds becomes questionable.
Quote:
some of the other Home Clans might try and do things on their own
Within reason – as stated above.
Quote:
Tyra Miraborg – options
Multiple Options are available …
1. The Capitol World of the Free Rasalhague Republic did not fall – and Tyra remains on the capitol world with the Prince as a member of his honour guard. Phelan could also escape at this time and make his way to Tyra if you wanted to add some sappy love story …
2. The Battle of Radstadt did or didn’t occur, in which she did kill or another individual killed the ilKhan etc.
3. ilKhan Leo Showers did or didn’t die.
4. Khan Ulric Kerensky did or didn’t die at the same time where Phelan did or didn’t die at the same time attempting to save Ulric or Leo.
There could be many other options …
Quote:
Nothing here suggests the Falcons teaming up with the wolves to take Terra.
Unless you understand the Clan terminology of “Teaming Up” – Trial of Absorption – both sides recognise that they are running out of warriors / resources however if they can take over their neighbours resources they can continue, so in dire circumstances why not go for broke start with reaving and Trails of Possession, and if it is going your way why not (be a little underhanded) and call it a Trial of Absorption and just take everything … a very Mongol way of thinking?
Quote:
Feng Huang
Are you therefore intimidating that the WoB supplied the information to both the FWL and then to the CC to allow them both to produce transit (K-F) drives?
Also since the WoB did break from ComStar and started building within the FWL their shipyards would most definitely be upgraded.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mjolnir
“The Mjolnir's interplanetary drives are also of note, not only for their size but how the LAAF managed to produce them in the first place. Since the early 3050s, ComStar provided WarShip engines to the Great Houses, but when the Word of Blake took Terra they stopped the practice. This sent the Houses madly searching for an alternate source. The Alliance, long an industrial powerhouse, simply commissioned the factories within its borders to make the engines piecemeal. Although difficult to coordinate and incredibly expensive, the process worked and allowed the Mjolnir's engines to reach final assembly at the Port Sydney Yards orbiting Alarion.”
Once again we need to wonder why a Great House would rely on ComStar for a critical Warship part when just recently they have been engaged in a shadow war with them? Especially when you can see ComStar playing games with the Federated Suns’ Fox and Avalon – which were due to be completed in 3050.
Unrealistic writing will only get you so far!
Can we please have a re-write sooner rather than later as this black hole of reasoning is deplorable!
And again, this is a what if scenario – not an let’s adhere to all things canon scenario.
Quote:
Hire assistance also means having to purchase supplies
So when you go food shopping your hiring assistance – from whom? All that is happening with the transport of supplies is logistical goods transport – accumulating supplies into a single warehouse then transporting the bulk goods to their client’s warehouse.
Assistance is usually a representation of a physical responsibility – performing physical tasks.
Quote:
Any home clan could rush in and steal the position?
Problems with comprehension of reading?
Only those clans allowed to be in IS can rush for Terra to become ilClan.
Quote:
They could well have started their runs as soon as the wolves started pulling away from the others.
And like good little boys and girls they will have to sit outside (in the deep periphery – sitting quietly) until the ilKhan has been determined and then, and only then, will good little Clan be allowed to come into the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/04/22 10:11 AM
70.118.172.64
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How about you block him? That way, you don't see his post.
I think Phelan would still be there, and Ulric would still trust him at this point. So he would be there to save Ulric. As for the rest, they had enough transports to do what they felt was needed. Anything could be brought in from the home worlds as part of planned reinforcements or contracted from the Sharks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 12:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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Does that mean Phelan takes Gunzburg by himself? That would put a heavy suspicion on him once he does escape.
Now with this, he could well be feeding at least the Kells with tech data from the clans. I could see Natasha having some sort of secret means of contacting the Dragoons, and possibly the Hounds. This could happen after Focht talks with him as well.
Then he could be 'cleared' with some story that could echo the truth. He risked his life to gain intel on the clans, without saying anything about the way he got most of it to the LC/IS. Simply saying he was debriefed for it all, and not a stream when he was 'captive'.
A question has come up. Would the Wolves start narrowing their corridor in order to focus on getting to Terra quicker?
Or would they spread out some, hoping to force the others to go further out in order to get to Terra? I know some of this will be decided with what troops are available. As the Wolves are not above using the PGCs in an offensive posture, that could be the way they could get more reinforcements into the fight.
Also, is there any thoughts on them ramping up sibko or even freeborn training before the invasion was finalized? Such as the Wolf khans realized the others were going to try something? Maybe even tie it into the scientists creation of the warriors that were not trained by the military? Instead of the Falcons gaining them, the Wolves get them?
I think that would be a nice twist to the what if.
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Karagin
08/04/22 12:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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If he doesn't outright escape, he could do a double agent thing and send a message to his father or one that goes to a friend of a friend thing. I am sure Natasha had ways of contacting Jamie if she needed to, so Phelan could find a way to get info to his father.
I think they would keep it wide enough to have a buffer but narrow enough to get them to Terra without too many extra stops. I don't see them needing more warriors at this point. Losses haven't been that high, not for the Wolves. Some of the other Clans might require more, and they might be ramping up their sibkos and cutting corners, but that is within their Clans, so not much can be done. Other than the Grand Council vote.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 04:34 PM
45.51.181.83
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So you think as they hit the DC/FC border below the FRR, it would not be that bad in damages done to them?
Given that area would be more fortified and have more units, I would think the wolves would suffer more damages.
Maybe I missed something.
It also makes the question of if Comstar will stop helping the clans and turn on them, when they get that close.
I would think the Wolves would be alone in that general area, as they were pushing far harder then the other clans.
So initially, they would be dealing with things all by themselves.
This is not saying the other clans weren't trying to catch up, but I can see them having to put that many more troops into fights, causing their garrisons to be that much weaker, and having to deal with counter attacks, possibly taking worlds back. As I don't have the numbers for the Cats or Vipers, I can't give an estimate on what they could do to counter the houses, or if they would just turn on the Falcons/Jaguars and hit their worlds.
This may come from the Cats/Vipers wanting revenge for being in the second position for invasion. It might also come from losing to them over the years.
Another possible issue is the bombarding of Turtle Bay. Though that wouldn't be directed towards the Falcons.
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Karagin
08/04/22 06:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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They would hit it, but they would not be going after the most robust defended worlds. Ulric wasn't one to play that game. He would only attack heavy-defened worlds if he had no choice. We would see pin-point attacks by passing the fortress worlds, and these areas would not be that defended since both the FC/DC would still need to blunt the other Clans. What good is stopping the drive on Terra if Luithen falls or Thakrad?
Now we might see ComStar digging in on many worlds and doing all they can to slow the advance of the Wolves. It might seem Focht goes hat in hand to the Dragoons begging for help. I would pay to see that happen in a story.
As the fighting gets more intense, I could see a Falcon commander ordering an orbital bombardment as needed. Which would be seen as part of the bidding and counter bidding. So no issue for the Clans. The Inner Sphere is going to find that they will need mulitple plans to deal with the Clans,.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/04/22 08:00 PM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
Phelan Patrick Kell
Stockholm Syndrome Candidate – Where he has developed a strong positive feeling (to the point of familial ties) toward his captors over time.
Possible “Father Complex” – strong unconscious impulse to recognise Ulric as his substitute father figure due to Morgan Kell being a distant father figure – as Colonel of the Kell Hounds and Grand Duke of Arc Royal Morgan can be seen as a distant father figure who had little time for a young Phelan, hence the feelings of inadequacy towards his true father. Therefore, when Ulric provided the young Phelan with ‘attention’ he began seeing him as his substitute father figure.
Any action, therefore, towards betraying his new home and family needs to be explained carefully.
Also if he does decide to become a spy/saboteur for the Lyran State he will need a handler who can run him as well as a means of transferring any information he obtains out from the newly captured Clan Wolf space and back into Lyran Space.
So how is this going to be achieved? … Options via … (need a good backstory as to why they are helping Phelan)
1. Khan Ulric Kerensky – As the head of the Warden faction he is preparing a war against the Crusader faction and will require allies to not only kill of the Crusaders within the IS, but also to save the people within the Kerensky Cluster.
2. Natasha Kerensky – Defector from Wolf’s Dragoons back to Clan Wolf as her identity remains that of a truborn Wolf? (Problem here is that in 3050 she is 77yrs – solhama candidate and not a warrior candidate).
Therefore making her a grandmother figure to Phelan?
Backstory – her allegiance has never waned from Wolf’s Dragoons – she is a spy with a pre-arranged communication system (advanced black box) to her handlers within the IS to relay information back to Jamie Wolf. Upon arrival with the Clans she is delighted to find a co-conspirator (Phelan) to assist with her world in sabotaging the Clans invasion of the IS.
3. Anastasius Focht – Precenor Martial Com Guards – As envoy to the Clans on arrival with Dire Wolf Clan Nova Cat’s Oathmaster Winters attacked him as he represented the doom of the Clans in her visions … thus many will be incredibly wary of him, thus making any transfer of knowledge from Phelan to him incredibly difficult to achieve without the assistance of Ulric Kerensky.
4. Another IS Bondsman – LIC Agent – again difficult to consider, will need an adequate back story as well as a means of getting information back into the IS.
Also – how far do you want to go along with the canon story until you decided to implement your what if Alt. Universe) story? As what happens if you want to retain the Clan Wolf in Exile with Khan Phelan Ward? Or is this part of the Warden Vs. Crusader Clan Civil War within the IS scenario?
Quote:
gunzburg
Really? Phelan convinced General Miraborg to surrender without a shot being fired? You do realise that this is cowardice in the face of the enemy?
Even though he knew he was going to loose there could be alternative reasons of why you are entering a forlorn hope battle – delaying tactic to allow for allies to prepare a trap on a subsequent world; Clan depletion report – sell yourself as dearly as possible and kill / inflict as much damage as possible upon Clan Wolf.
In all reality I’m not surprised Tor Miraborg didn’t kill Phelan out of hand due to the death of his daughter – as it was Phelan’s fault that she was transferred and subsequently died in a kamikaze attack upon the Dire Wolf.
Or, by this stage is this going to change due to your what if (Alt. history) scenario?
- Is Tyra alive and on world at the same time? – conflicting Phelan’s loyalties due to a past love;
- Is this world now part of the Kesselring (WW2) line used as part of the attrition warfare strategy;
- Is it going to be a part of the Warden / Crusader Civil War; or
- Other – as part of your own what if (Alt. History) Campaign.
Quote:
Would the Wolves start narrowing their corridor in order to focus on getting to Terra quicker?
Or would they spread out?
Good to see your reading my posts and incorporating them into the discussion.
Simple answer is given the level of military units available (even with PGCs) all Clans will run out of forces due to garrison requirements long before they reach Terra. They will therefore need to adopt a strategy that will enable them to add additional forces to the front lines, from their Planetary Garrisons, in order to reach Terra – or adopt another strategy to acquire these available forces.
Quote:
As the Wolves are not above using the PGCs in an offensive posture, that could be the way they could get more reinforcements into the fight.
First, as stated many times PGCs are not allowed in the fight as they are NOT part of the original bid.
Second, if you actually read Clan’s TO&E Toumans prior to Operation Revival you will see that their PGCs are extremely minimal in number and will only free up a very small number of units.
Third, PGCs role on the Clan Home Worlds was as a battlefield cleaning service – after the Trial was concluded the PGCs were sent in as a Mech recovery and transport – to make the area clean again for the next circle of equals Mech Trial. Thus their ability to garrison anything is highly questionable.
Fourth, PGCs are only allowed substandard equipment compared to front line units.
And Lastly, any serious and immediate increase in PGCs will require a massive freeborn warrior recruitment drive together with a very short bootcamp. You’re going to end up with a vast quantity of substandard warriors who you would use to replace experienced warriors within garrisons – and this in turn will create opportunities for your Clans enemies to strike at these garrisons – to prove the inadequacy of your warriors – Trial of Possession (either Logistics stored on the world or the entire world itself).
Either way you’re opening many worlds, and possibly logistics / routes to capture / destruction – which will not look good from the point of view of your Khan / other Clan’s Khans who will just openly ridicule your Clan for taking such a desperate tactic.
As for the scientists – as stated previously – any revolt by them will require the absence of the majority of Clan Warriors as well as the establishment of a highly trained, disciplined and equipped army / navy / airforce to combat the Clan Warriors upon their return – or a genetic implant that will just kill off all Trueborn when exposed to an inert gas to Freeborn.
Ramping up sibkos – how is this achieved without reducing the current quality standards hat end in a Trial of Position? Also, how are existing Clan warriors going to treat these ‘substandard’ Trueborn warriors? One step above freeborn?
You have to remember this is a stratified society based upon racial DNA purity.
Also, no Grand Council Vote required – this is an internal decision within a single Clan – however in the back of their minds many khans will be thinking “Dinner Time” – Trial of Absorption – they are a weak Clan!
Quote:
So you think as they hit the DC/FC border below the FRR, it would not be that bad in damages done to them?
Depends on the strategies implemented
Go from Elastic Defence to Kesselring’s prepared defensive lines and they will knock the Clans for a 6 when it comes to attrition warfare.
And no you didn’t miss something – though TPTB certainly did.
Quote:
ComStar
Once they realise that Terra is their objective ComStar should break all contact and begin open hostility. Remember what Rommel said about the longest day – they have to keep them at the water’s edge – on n this case as far from Terra as possible.
Quote:
I would think the Wolves would be alone …
Then also expect them to be chewed up and spat out …
The loss of the Cats / Vipers was a foolish move on the part of TPTB – but this is nothing new they constantly destroy the best units and leave nothing but dross …
Quote:
Another possible issue is the bombarding of Turtle Bay. Though that wouldn't be directed towards the Falcons.
Turtle Bay – so a return to the Jihad era with nukes?
Not directed towheads the Falcons – and what about that incident when a Falcon Warship threatened to destroy the world if the Lyran unit did not quit?
Sorry but it is Jihad on both sides of the pond as they would say!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 09:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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I can see world skipping might cause the realms to have to spread out their troops to try and cover them all.
Or the clans would have to double jump over some areas, leaving gaps in their advance.
Over all, the realms are not going to be as concerned if another realms capital falls. But the general lack of numbers available to the clans is an issue. There is a point, where the flanking clans are going to have to ignore Luthien and Tharkad in order to try and stop the Wolves. Without additional clans or more reinforcements, I don't see them being able to deal with those worlds and still push forward.
And yes, I do understand the capital worlds would be hit before the clans got to Terra. The big thing is the clans would have some intel on where the most weapons of war the IS has coming out to oppose them would be. Even Leo would not ignore this, even in his arrogance.
The slow down would cost him and the Falcons time, which they can't afford with the Wolves, and possibly the Bears pulling out ahead towards Terra. Moves towards them may well help the Wolves as forces defending worlds close to Terra, might be redeployed to help protect the capitals.
This is also true about those opposing the Bears as well.
Without a better supply of warriors, the flankers would be getting chewed upon, causing issues with those clans. Though this fact might be used to explain why the Wolves were able to hit Terra, without the others interfering.
I guess the pressure from the LC and DC might be what keeps the flankers from hitting the center as well. It would be too embarrassing to lose worlds to the IS, then it would be to try and hit the Wolves and Bears.
I could see Ulric using this to keep the others focused on the flanks, with subtle jabs in a few speeches to the home worlds. Interesting how this sort of politics could be used to help the two middle clans a lot.
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Karagin
08/04/22 10:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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Think about this if the Falcons can take Thakrad and then push on to Terra, that is like a major coup, but even with the Wolves taking Terra, the Falcons holding a chunk of the LC worlds and their former capital will play big for them later on. Same for the Jaguars with the DC.
I think we won't see the Houses working together that much, even with the Dragoons and ComStar pushing for it. Once things start to crash home, the FC and DC will look after their own more than working together. Same for the FWL.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/05/22 02:03 AM
45.51.181.83
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Once Terra is taken, I would think that open season would happen on all the clan taken worlds. The thing that stops me from saying all worlds, is the agreement for taking Terra. Given they say into perpetuity, that makes it sound like Terra is immune to the standard clan trials. It may well be the new Strana Mechty with all clans having some lands there, but no fighting on it. I know that sounds backwards with how the clans operate, but something tells me they can not challenge it.
Well no fights except for what the Grand Council puts up. Things like the trials for very important things, like the invasion trails were.
Granted, might makes right, so someone will try.
This also questions how the clans will deal with this. Will all the clans be coming into the IS?
I honestly think so. The invasion was to see who had the chance to become Ilclan, not to prevent the entire clans return to the IS.
Will only the invasion clans be allowed in the IS to take more worlds?
I think this is incorrect. It goes against the entire crusader thinking. The clans would return to the IS and establish a new SL. Nothing in that says only a few would. Granted, those that won have the option to try and change that concept, but I think that would backfire.
Taking a capital world would bring honor to the clan that does, but given the resources on them, I would think several other worlds would be more likely to be a prize. Hesperus system being the main one that comes to mind.
A few others with large war factories comes to mind.
Taking of Terra does not necessarily means the clans take over the entire IS. The story could go along with retaking lost worlds from the clans. Even if the Wolves stay on Terra, this does not mean the end of the IS.
The formation of the TH would be the first stage, which might also be the only stage the clans could do for a while. But we will have to see what comes up.
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Requiem
08/05/22 02:45 AM
1.147.88.67
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the clans would have to double jump over some areas, leaving gaps in their advance.
Sorry but this is quite impossible.
Being of ‘Mongol’ origin every Clan has no choice but to engage the enemy once found in front of them. Less their Clan will be seen as week by the other Clans’ Khans and will be ridiculed for their un-Clan like behaviour.
The clans have a real issue when it comes to ‘demonstrating their superiority’ - at all times - to everyone in their orbit, friend and foe alike.
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… the realms are not going to be as concerned if another realm’s capital falls …
May I ask then why the Kell Hounds and Wolf Dragoons were on Luthien, the capital of the Draconis Combine, when they cam under attack by the Cats and the Jaguars?
The defence of Rasalhague could have been a culminating event within the Inner Sphere – the formation of the Star League once more – unfortunately TPTB lost a real gem of a situation … this world could have open the writers to new paths – though perfect for the what if (Alt. Universe) scenario.
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going to have to ignore Luthien and Tharkad
Tharkad - https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/61/Lc-3052.png?timestamp=20100529215848
Too far distant from any of the invasion corridors – would be a waste of resources and time to even consider such an expedition – That is the race for Terra is too important to go swanning off to attack Tharkad.
Luthien - https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/9/98/D...=20151116235144
In compassion Luthien is right on top of the border – thus making it a prime attack target as well as, for the successful Clan, a source of pride and honour for any successful Clan – Similar to a successful hunting trophy that is placed on the wall.
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Without a better supply of warriors, the flankers would be getting chewed upon, causing issues with those clans.
Blind Freddy can see that when you bunch up the Clans into a single invasion corridor where the wolves go straight through the FRR the Wolves will have it easy and by consequence they have the ability to progress faster than those on the flanks.
Thus there should be a means to make the invasion more equitable … i.e. the Wolves have to conquer more worlds before they are allowed to progress – where as those on the flanks are allowed to conquer less worlds before progressing …
If you want to keep the idea of a race to Terra, with no interference, then I would have suggested … The only other means of ensuring an adequate invasion race to Terra is to split the invasion corridors – if you place 360 degree circle over the inner sphere and 0 / 360 is at the top of the page
45 degrees – Jaguars – through the centre of the DC
90 degrees – Bears – along the DC / FS Border
270 degrees – Wolves – along the FWL / LC Border
315 degrees – Falcons – through the centre of the LC
This will also leave the FRR open in the event that the Cats / Vipers are allowed in – even though they start late by going through an easier opponent this handicap can be seen as a fair trade off …
The idea of keeping a centralized invasion corridor, in my opinion, should have been ditched from word one – as well as the majority of the TPB’s favouritism towards the Clans! But by scattering the Clans you will now have to actually do some work as each Clan is on its own.
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Interesting how this sort of politics could be used to help the two middle clans a lot.
Interesting how the flank Clans Khans can also provide speaches – who by their position are reaping greater honour than that of the middle Clans –to deride the inadequacies of the middle clans who’s only real means of getting ahead is through the hard work of the flank clans!
i.e. they are taking it easy as they are a week clan to begin with who’s only advantage comes from leaching off of the hard work of the stronger Clans on their flanks …
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Think about this if the Falcons can take Thakrad and then push on to Terra, that is like a major coup
Karagin – think about this for one second – it is not a major coup it is a poison chalice!
Any forces the Falcons send to Tharkad will have to remain on this world in perpetuity (If conquered) due to the constant attempts at reclaiming this world.
What this also means is that your Falcon Khan has just weakened their overall invasion corridor TO&E – thus in all reality slowing their progress to Terra (putting the objective of the invasion into second place) and causing issues as to available forces to garrison any conquered worlds – causing a major headache for their Logistics fleets in any attempt to resupply the Tharkad expeditionary fleet – and causing issues with available forces to continue the invasion to begin with (due to the garrisoning of worlds issue).
What it also does is paint a huge bulls eye on Clan Jade Falcon by Clan Wolf – who now recognise that as the Falcons are now weaker by this move they are now ripe for multiple Trials of Possession / a Trial of Absorption …
Also this could also be interpreted by the other Clans is that the Falcons have given up on Terra and have decided to swan about in the IS doing their own thing from here on out …
So in my interpretation 5 seconds after the Khan issues this order the sa-Khan demands a trial within the circle of equals for the top job …. And with the death of the former Khan, this order will be cancelled.
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holding a chunk of the LC worlds and their former capital will play big for them later on.
This should be interesting … please do elucidate ….
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I think we won't see the Houses working together that much, even with the Dragoons and ComStar pushing for it. Once things start to crash home, the FC and DC will look after their own more than working together. Same for the FWL.
Problem is history is not in favour of this – all throughout history when faced with a similar problem, divergent groups join forces to share resources and intelligence to combat the superior-evil forces …
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open season would happen on all the clan taken worlds
Er … does this mean that the Clans that remained on the Home Worlds will start a second invasion?
And yes Terra should become a second Strana Mechy -however the issue of communication should be addressed between Terra and Strana Mechy – also the issue of Garrisoning Terra should be the highest priority – as if I was Katherine I would have a reserve force within Skye (together with FWL and Com Guard and maybe even FS forces / Combine Forces) in an immediate response to retake Terra – why remember at this stage all Clans should have effectively beaten each other into a pulp to determine the winner – thus making them ripe for destruction by a quick counterattack by IS forces … plus whomever brought this force together (if successful) will be the next First Lord of Star League …
As for Trials about land on Terra – a substitute arena can be established – say on Mars.
Thus each Clan can argue over territory on Terra – with the capital permanently belonging to the IlClan and the ilKhan.
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Will all the clans be coming into the IS?
This is a given, post conquest of Terra.
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The invasion was to see who had the chance to become Ilclan, not to prevent the entire clans return to the IS.
Remember the original purpose – conquest of the entire IS – the Clans must reform these heathen barbarians who destroyed the original Star League.
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The story could go along with retaking lost worlds from the clans. Even if the Wolves stay on Terra, this does not mean the end of the IS.
Being a space opera there are multiple routes that can be taken … the rise and fall of empires – exploration to destroy the Kerensky Cluster once and for all in retaliation – establishing new empires within the space separating the Kerensky Cluster and the IS – plus many others ….
Just comes down to your imagination as to where you want the story to go …
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formation of the TH would be the first stage
As stated above – this is a given … however the issue of can they becomes the main point – also will this be achieved with just IS invasion clans or will they use the forces sent form the Clan Home worlds needs to be considered first.
Just IS invasion Clans – the issue of available forces need to be considered as they are spread out and there would be few forces available to establish their new TH.
With the addition of Clans Home World forces the establishment of a new Clan TH should be considered an achievable goal – though the size will be dependent upon the forces of the new SLDF and how well they are governed.
i.e. a new story arc can be generated from this to replace the Jihad era … could be considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/05/22 10:39 AM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Inner Sphere Houses understanding things about Terra being important to them until after its fall. They might go after the worlds, but I doubt they will significantly change their tactics or long-term plans.
The other Clans might, or they might not, try to challenge the Wolves for some worlds, but they will be hard-pressed to with the fighting against the Combine and what is left of the Fed-Com. Add in new fronts of the FWL and CapCon..
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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