Requiem
08/14/22 08:14 AM
1.147.88.67
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Is the GoT setting appropriate to BattleTech?
Within the feudal system of the BattleTech Universe should there be Castle worlds (high rank lord’s world) that are used to protect surrounding systems that were unable to protect themselves due to either their limited population, technology or being a specialist world i.e. mining or agriculture?
Consider an amended Federated Suns - Feudal Ranks – in decreasing order and the size of their land holding.
Princess / Prince of the Realm – A single great House Empire.
Grand Duke – March Lord domain.
Duke – Three Marquess domains – twenty-one to thirty worlds – plus their own world – totalling twenty-two to thirty-one worlds.
Marquess – Three Earls domains – six to nine worlds – plus their own world – totalling seven to ten worlds.
Earl – Two to three worlds .
Count – A single world.
Viscount – A single continent upon a single world
Baron – City and surrounding Landholding upon a single world
Baronet – Small Landholding upon a single world
Those feudal lords upon the border with another House, could expand their holdings through the acquisition of worlds – that can then be governed by new feudal lords of the realm – usually based upon their combat affinity.
Thus, over time, some Duke ‘families’ could evolve to have ‘more or less worlds’ – thus some may be vastly or less powerful.
Also note that within, the majority of, these aligned domains they are usually aligned on familial bonds – where they also maintain familial duty.
Consider that of the Scottish Clan Lord and that of his family spread over a vast area of space.
Also – marriage may also create ties between families
Also – inter family rivalry …
Or is his just making the story too onerous upon the writers?
Thoughts anyone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
08/14/22 10:56 AM
71.47.208.18
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Thoughts? I think it's worth remembering that the feudal system is mostly used for the interstellar governments of the Houses.
Per the House Davion Sourcebook, the most classically feudal House, the Federated Suns, mostly has representative democracies for planetary governments - republics, parliamentary monarchies, confederacies, etc. Feudal rule stops at a figurehead planetary duke who interfaces with New Avalon. An in-depth examination of such a planet is found in A Time of War: El Dorado, one the Suns' "Golden Five" worlds. The underlying constitution of the Suns, the Crucis Pact, means that the central government simply can't exert squat for influence on most Suns planets. (At the opposite extreme, Euclid in the ATOW:Companion looks at a rare case where feudal rule has more direct influence on a Suns planet. However, it was an odd case.)
The Lyran Commonwealth likewise tends to limit the influence of feudal rule to interstellar levels. Arcturus, also in ATOW, looks at such a planet - it is an oligarchic republic with a figurehead planetary duke. There are quite a few Touring the Stars publications about Lyran planets, too, all where feudal influence is negligible. Wealth matters more than station, which is easy to buy in the Commonwealth. (Hence Arcturus concentrates actual voting power in a few districts and representatives' hands, but not via feudal methods.)
The Free Worlds League is all over the map for planetary governments, but favors representational governments for its planets.
The Capellan Confederation is a lot of things ("socialist caste system"?), but it's hard to say that most of its low level government is feudal.
This would make simple implementation of Game of Thrones challenging without a lot of editing of published governments, planets, and other features that hinder GoT-style rule and politicking.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
08/14/22 09:46 PM
1.147.88.67
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First, let’s have a look at some of the original books …
Quote:
House Davion – The Federated Suns (Page 97 to 100)
Knighthoods
Attached to a section of land – no political duties.
Barons and Baronesses
Lowest rank – certain political duties attached to the government of a section of land. Administer important cities or important sections of continents – do not own or control the actions of private firms who use their land – can often use taxes or access to natural resources to make these corporations responsive to their wishes.
They can be subject to dismissal by their subjects.
Counts and Countesses
Next highest rank – Hereditary title appointed by first Duke to administer whole continents, moons, and sometimes even whole planets – or control over a single city containing a BattleMech factory.
If entire family deceased – existing Duke appoints new Count / Countess.
Count does not usually answer to local civilian government – unless laws on the planet have been passed to specifically limit the count’s powers or a duke overrule their action.
Most Counts delegate some of their powers to civilian government and civil service.
Counts can, and often do, override the actions of civilian governments or of nobles subordinate to them, but not without making some explanation.
May also use military force to guarantee obedience from the people or from lesser nobles.
Marquess and Marquesas’
Higher than Count, but below a Duke
Used as a means by a Duke to bestow control of one of her/his worlds on a daughter or son.
(and is used to promote economic development on Periphery Worlds by the First Price who appoints a 5 or 10 year term – that may become permanent if successful)
Duke and Duchess
Hereditary position - A ruler over a whole planet or a group of worlds in several star systems.
Note – Military Rank is used to indicate ‘rulership over a March’ – e.g. Field Marshal of the Draconis March …
Quote:
House Steiner – The Lyran Commonwealth (Page 87)
The title of Duke or Duchess is usually reserved for those who have acquired, or are about to acquire, a controlling interest in a planet(s) (land-holding) and is also awarded to industrial giants (corporation ownership).
Ennoble any of their loyal subjects who have managed to significantly boost the Lyran economy.
Margrave – purely military and belongs to the commander of one of the nine front line military districts that extend along the Commonwealth’s borders.
They technically rule all the planets within these theatres of operations – though does not wield political power – the title of Margrave is a temporary one. Children retain a baronage and may claim a place in the miliary academy.
The titles of Landgrave and Grag are given to large land-holders on a world or to the owners of large industries.
A Land-grave is an exceptionally powerful Graf. The Ducal owner of the planet has some power to appoint those Grafs who will serve under him.
It is customary for the eldest offspring of a Duke to receive a Grafship.
The Archon also has the power to bestow a Grafship.
Baronies are generally reserved for eminent citizens who have distinguished themselves in their particular field – provides a monthly stipend + small plot of land on their home-world.
Quote:
House Kurita – The Draconis Combine (Page 93)
Military Commanders
Ministers
Provincial leaders
Land- or corporation-holders
The Coordinator can overrule any decision or action by a noble.
Um …. More detail would have been required guess no one did any real research?
Quote:
House Liao – The Capellan Confederation (Page 60)
Each commonality in turn is subdivided by duchies ruled by a duke or duchess – contains upward of a half dozen star systems, though there are some larger grand duchies.
Each duchy is divided into smaller administrative units called warrens, each warren comprising one or more star systems with several inhabited worlds each.
The Warren is divided into various demesnes, corresponding to an individual star system.
Each dutchy is the sovereign territory of the ruler to whom it has been granted
Individual warrens are administered by appointees of the duke or duchess – called Diems
Diems are empowered to appoint planetary directors to govern individual worlds.
Planetary fiefdoms can be awarded to nobles or their families for meritorious service to the state – and do not fall under the jurisdiction of a local duke or their representatives but are ruled directly by the fiefdom’s owner or designated representative.
Unless specified as hereditary, duchies and fiefdoms are subject to being withdrawn and reassigned at the will of the Chancellor.
House Liao
Lord/Lady – Knight
Mandarin/Mandrissa – Baron
Shonso/ Shanna - Count
Lama/Lamia - Marquis
Duke/Duchess
Still prefer the one I made up to these messy substitutes!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/16/22 08:53 AM
1.147.88.67
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So let us now consider re-writing to more logical Inner Sphere Feudal System?
Aim, to codify the political, economic, social, and military system based on the Lord’s land holdings and the resulting relations between them (Feudal Ranked Family / Individual) and their vassals (their civilians).
The titles of each are …
Quote:
House Davion - English
Empress / Emperor
Princess / Prince
Arch Duchess / Duke
Grand Duchess / Duke
Duchess / Duke
Marchioness / Marquess
Earl / Earl
Countess / Count
Viscountess / Viscount
Baroness /Baron
Baronetess / Baronet
Knight / Knight
Quote:
House Steiner - German
Emperor / Empress - Kaiser(in)
Kaiser(in)- Designate
Imperial Prince / Princess - Reichsfurst(in)
Prince / Princess (royal) - Prinz(essin)
Prince / Princess (noble) - Furst(in)
Arch Duke / Duchess - Erzherzog(in)
Grand Duke / Duchess - Grobherzog(in)
Duke / Duchess - Herzog(in)
Margrave / Margravine - Markgraf(in)
Count(ess) of the Empire - Rechsgraf(in)
Count(ess) Palatine - Pfalzgraf(in)
Count(ess) - Graf(in)
Baron(ess) of the Empire - Reichsfreiherr / Reichsfreifrau / Reichsfreiin
Baron(ess) - Freiherr / Freifrau / Freiin
Burgrave / Burgravine - Burggraf(in)
Landgrave / Landgravine - Landgraf(in)
Lord / Noble Lord - Herr / Edler Herr
Knight – Ritter
Noble - Edler / Edle
Young Lord - Junker
Quote:
House Marik – ?
Same as House Davion? Or French? Or Russian? – So, Alt. Empire House Marik at this stage?
Quote:
House Kurita – Japanese
Military – Social Stratification
Shogun
Kanrei (when required) / Keeper of the House Honour (unofficial position)
Kazoku (Exalted lineage) is the hereditary peerage for Lords:- those that held administrative posts and land (Daimyo); those that held administrative posts, land and military power (Shugo-Daimyo); and court nobles (kuge) – those with territorial privileges / obligations (in an advisory and executive position) based upon their rank.
Oji (Prince, equivalent of Duke)
Koshaku (Marquis)
Hakushaku (Count, equivalent of Earl)
Shishaku (Vicount)
Danshaku (Baron)
Samurai
Ronin (mercenary)
Ashigaru – infantry employed by the samurai class (peasant foot soldiers / conscripted civilians)
Quote:
House Liao - Chinese
Gong (Duke)
Hou (Marquis)
Bo (Earl)
Zi (Viscount)
Nan (Baron)
Consider reading the following - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nobility for a more accurate understanding.
Quote:
Powers / Duties
The Powers and Duties of which will be stratified and determined by the ruler of their individual realm.
Consideration thus will need to be given to the following …
Governmental Administration
Economic Control
Social Control
Military Industrial Capabilities
Military Authority
As each realm would have their own ideas as to how this will work in practice – I believe it would be the responsibility of each GM to make the call as to how this should be represented within their game.
It is my belief, however, that when the BattleTech Universe decided to be ‘Feudal’ it should have been total – the quasi version supplied just does not work in my opinion – and what is more it could have added a new dimension to the game that was never there.
Why it doesn’t work – how does the relationship with the people of their world actually-work? – as a more comprehensive understanding is required than that supplied so far.
That said make up your own mind as to how the Feudal System should be incorporated into your game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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