TechWriter22
02/25/23 06:51 PM
154.16.192.53
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This might jump around, because of several thoughts, so I've "*" new thoughts processes.
I was always under the impression that the Clans were the product of the story stalling; is this product just about five houses that continuously beat the snot out of each other, over and over again, or will something finally change? Even though BT revolves around the TT, I don't think the line developers at the time even considered it's effect on the game. The entire invasion is all real-world historical events laid over the BT universe: basically the Mongol horde mixed in with the first year or two of the Nazis Operation Barbarossa, right down to the concept of "Clans"- the Mongol horde wasn't one dedicated army, but literally a group of Clans held together by a ilKhan- the compound bows and Panzers having better range then their opponents, the death of the ilKhan causing a full retreat home, and Luthien subbing for Moscow. The only thing missing is Stalingrad and the sack of Baghdad.
The invasion is literary- something you create for fiction, not for a boardgame, because the insertion of the new technology into the rulebook immediately creates a massive imbalance. You can find innovative ways to counter it in fiction (like, say, inventing a caveat where the phone company has been hording tens of thousands of pieces of high-tech military gear, and one of the best generals in the universe happens to fall into their hands a decade before the invasion, and then back-filling the rolls with more advanced models of mechs and tanks to make the distinction even more profound) whereas in-game, you are constrained. It always struck me that it was likely that, sometime after all of that came to be- The "invading Clans" Sourcebook is 1995, but the first 3 Thurston novels are all 1991- someone went "Oh, when we plug in the Clan tech into the rules, its REALLY imbalances the game."
They made the same mistake again when they back-filled the Jihad with WoB's utterly unrealistic tech-jump (It takes 300 years for what is basically a military cult dedicated to making the best weapons in history to make a SLIGHTLY better laser, but cyborgs, insane weapons and super-mechs just magically appear in a decade?).
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Regardless, I'm a product of the very early video games and the original 60-odd books, plus the sourcebooks. Even as a teenager, I understood that the videogames weren't tactical- if you ever played multiplayer Mechwarrior 2, it became apparent very quickly- but, as someone who LOVES Sid Meier's Gettysburg/Atietam, Total War, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron, and all of the other "macro" real-time tactical games out there, I just always figured that the Mechwarrior series wasn't trying to be that, and that a tactical game would get made eventually (That thought got reinforced when they made "MechCommander- I thought a "Europa Universalis: Battletech" type game was imminent.... although, you CAN mod EU4, including the gamespace.....).
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I got the backlash against the Clan plot armor, and I think they have been poorly developed since Tukayyid, which I think was another point where the line developer got stuck, and thought "well, let's have them turn on each other, but, everyone knows Clan Wolf, so they'll just come out on top." and it just kept cascading from there. Paralysis through analysis- well, if we have Clan Wolf fail, people will be angry, so let's just keep them returning to victory- until you get an influx of popularity, and suddenly EVERYONE is asking why Clan Wolf's line development is so astonishingly dumb.
Either that, or Lauren Coleman REALLY likes them, and has mandated it- he was a shot-caller with FASA, so its not inconceivable.
But the Clan Wolf plot armor isn't a cause, its a symptom of a bigger problem. The newer fiction/sourcebooks have been bad and poorly written (and the bar on the originals weren't exactly "We should enter this for a Pulitzer" level amazing) for a LONG time, but they are also built off of increasingly bad ideas and line decisions, which has built off of increasingly bad.... well, you both sound like you have been around for a bit, so you know. Ilkhan might be fun to play because of the massive variety, but the line development is at "Bad Soap Opera/Telenovela" level quality, right down to the "twasn't me, twas my evil twin!". When you hit the twin markers "Evil Twin" and "Previously Unknown character materializes out of thin air and takes over the universe almost instantly with no real explanation of how he got there." you know the dumpster has been lit aflame.
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The individual small-unit mech vs mech tactics for the boardgame don't much attention for me, because it's not my bag, but I can definitely see the frustration in having a game that allows that kind of imbalance, especially one that currently has an influx of new players. Other than that, Ill avoid the TT conversation, because a) I don't play it, and b) I have won MANY missions in HBS' BT by stumping a lance of jump-capable assault mechs providing a harassment screen in front of massed artillery. :-)
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In order for a hand-held mech weapon to operate, it would have to be connected to the cockpit, which means it's not a "finger pulls the trigger" weapon- it's merely held in the hand because it (should, in theory) save space and tonnage in-universe, and because it can be dropped in an emergency for stompy murder robot fisticuffs. Or- and this is probably the truth for most designs- it looked cool. Either way, no trigger = no one-shot. Next time, just pick up the weapon and throw it at your opponent.
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WRT glancing shots, I have always wondered about things like this, especially armor angling: if you get hit with an AC shell, why does it ALWAYS hit flush, even in fiction? You NEVER see a line like:
"Rick danced the Shootist sideways, avoiding the incoming missiles from the Longbow, but his movements put him directly into the path of the Hunchback, which opened up with its massive canon. Rick lurched the Shootist away from the threat, but the shell slammed into the right shoulder of the Shootist, deflecting off of the sloped plate there and caroming off into the night with only minimal damage. "Got lucky there" Rick muttered, as he gritted his teeth and slammed a shell from his own AC/20 into the centre-mass of the Hunchback."
Which is basically the ENTIRE concept of armoured warfare- penetration vs thickness AND slope.
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I agree that the novels shouldn't follow the game rules.
The game rules are simplified versions of what the "in-universe" fighting would look like if it was real. In reality, if you're doing your due diligence (which the Battletech line has consistently failed to do) NOTHING is going to be standardized, and EVERY weapon from a different source- including from the same manufacturer- is going to have differences in damage level, quality, accuracy, etc. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are dozens of considerations to take into account. The fiction should be NOTHING like that game once you clear the "Battlemechs fire things at each other" bar. The technical details and nuances of armored combat should be where the books and lore shine, and move away from the game. It almost never does that, especially recently, but it would be far, far better if it did. I think once, long ago, someone wanted to go that way, which is why the lore isn't just "Inner Sphere Standard Autocannon 10" but a hodge-podge of manufacturers, model names of weapons that imply differences and a sub-universe of "fascinating-only-to-military-nerds-like-me" military industrial complex storyline/faction that needs to be teased out.
If you add that to the real-world historical nuances present in the back-drop, you get the idea that someone in the game's early development- say, up to the early 90s- was a HUGE military nerd, and wanted a piece of the game to reflect what he knew. It sort of ends with the Clan Invasion (there is no blatant historical equivalent that I can think of for the Wolves-in-exile, the Second Star League, Serpent/Bulldog, etc), and I think the IP is worse for it. But, yeah: an AC/20 does "20" damage in-game, but in-universe, if you're doing it right, even a "hit" could be only minor damage.
Don't get me started on whether an autocannon fires single-shot or burst, because its a single shell, like a tank fires today, and dependent upon calibre and loader speed, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool who doesn't understand how canons work. :-)
A mech "in-universe" is active so long as it can put its weapons on a target, legs or no legs. If a mech walks by and it can lash out with an arm, its realistically a threat, the same as if it props itself up by its arms so it can bring its torso-mounted weapons to bear. Mechanical design could restrict movement- the Stalker example- but also design limitations: for example, does the protruding torso of an Archer limit its ability to bring its missiles to bear in certain circumstances while on the ground, or can the launch angle of the missiles be adjusted from the cockpit/fire control system?
And, horizontal use of jump jets is plausible- I don't know what kind of range you'd be looking at (not much, I'd expect) and it would have to be more of a arcing flightpath, but a mech weighing W tons moving at X speed which uses force thrusters providing Y pounds (tons?) of force and powerful enough to carry it Z distance to augment its speed should be able to get SOME distance out of a horizontal movement, even if the mech was stationary.
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ghostrider
02/25/23 08:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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The big issue with grazing verses full damage shots comes from no variation of damage in the game. A normal large laser does 8 points. There is nothing that says it does less damage from a grazing shot. Honestly, the lack of random damage is nice, as the missile tables always turn out badly for me. So a constant number is fine. This does give rise to mathematicians using complex tables to figure out the min/max of units and what to fire when. Players get a feel for it as well.
Random damage would solve the issues of grazing verse full damage. I puts the element of chance into each shot, which is what makes D&D fun at times.
I have stated before the problems of having a technologically superior enemy in games. The 'heroes' eventually get that tech and makes it that much harder to challenge them later, without even more superior tech.
Clantech is such a problem. Had the developers actually let it be widely spread in the canon version, the WOB events wouldn't have been such a problem, other then the nukes, super ranged jumpships and the like. I have not seen much of the books for that time, but do know a little about the crap pulled.
I have also stated that warships should have remained dead in the game. There is no real balance to anything with them. If you have them, then you seem to have the upper hand, while not having one, and the enemy does, makes it a death trap for you.
The game itself states ACs uses burst fire, and I am not talking double fire here at this point. Part of the rules, just like nukes not being the death bringers you would expect. The use of 'clips' for the canon is common. Like using an semi automatic. Fire the entire clip and load in a fresh one for the next shot. Yet the games full damage or no damage argues against this. The recoil is something that isn't really a factor unless you add that to the double fire rate, and why it has issues hitting both 'shots'. Yet the novels suggest that AC fire stitched across a mechs torso, which would suggest not only a burst fire, but you can spread the damage over an area. Which is part of the issue with damage and the novels.
If you know the recoil will shift your aim, why isn't it possible that the first burst wasn't set up so the shot would recoil into the enemy's movement? Much like using a machine gun. A strafe is probably a decent example of this. i know they want to keep it simple, but I keep seeing them use certain things to defend what they want, and say it doesn't work when that defense is used against them.
The example of horizontal use of jets was in a story that a pilot was desperate and used it to take out another mech in a DFA style attack, only instead of landing on top of the unit, it crashed into the legs/torso. Yes, it was a suicide shot.
Unless they changed it, you have to have a functional leg and arm to fire while prone. It is my assumption that if you are missing half the leg, it is considered destroyed. Now it is possible for someone to say it was just the loss of the lower leg and foot actuators, so there is some room for debate. The problem is, how the unit lost the legs was when a charging mech ran it over, snapping the legs off according to the story.
Logic and Battetech don't mix well. That is something most agree with.
To keep from needing a full spread sheet to deal with repair and replacement parts, every weapon type, no matter who makes it or where they were at, fits everything.
So the PPC that fits in a Warhammer's arm, fits in the Marauder, Awesome Shreck PPC carrier and so on. Jury rigging is quoted as the reason why, but some things will never work.
One last thing about the game. The larger calibur canons fire shorter ranges then the smaller ones, which is backwards of real life. Artillery is backwards for this case.
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Requiem
02/25/23 10:16 PM
1.158.193.188
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As it now socially acceptable to thread-jack another’s posts I will also include “*” my personal opinions ….
The foundation for the original story was improperly laid (not only the vast backstory and minimum number of major Houses but also the development of each House though all the eras – a vast amount of information is required to rectify this and yet was never considered important) thus a decision was made requiring a future revaluation to rejuvenate the story, however, the ‘solution’ Clan (backstory) - to move the protagonists into a new age - was incredibly rushed resulting in an even worse setting than that of the previous setting and the vast number of black holes within the game just increased exponentially and each subsequent era just made the story worse than the last.
Where is any logic in the game – if all worlds are an island unto themselves logic should be used to describe each world. – What is a ruler’s primary duty? Why was it never enforced? – if you want a medieval setting why was it so slap dashed? Where is the logistics where are the trade routes …. for example every world should have its own jump-ship manufacturing / repair facility … also every world should have a vast subterranean military facility protected by naval grade energy weapons … also Naval warships cannot ever be removed from that game and should have been incorporated since year dot … and then the idea of dropships should be so small is ludicrous … as well as understanding the development of colonization from the beginning to the future – blind Freddy can see the current ships are inappropriate and must be replaced by O’Neill cylinders … and the list goes on and on ….
The Clans are little more that a poorly developed diatribe (in my personal opinion).
So we now find a story that can only be believed by pre-pubescent consciousnesses as the story developers refused to allow any form of a logically constructed story due to past characters / story development – thus all we get is a story where the developers allow their pet units to run wild for example both Wolves and Falcons post their little war in the IS logically when a Unit is weakened to such a state they should be destroyed utterly by all other clans as weakness cannot be tolerated, any weak clan must be destroyed / absorbed !– pitiful does not begin to describe how bad the story became at this time due to pet clan units being preserved!
As for the Clans being a Mongol horde, don’t make me laugh – this could not be further from the truth – for accuracy’s sake they are Nazi through and through – a complete mockery as to their origin as SLDF.
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Where are the armoured / fighter IS units? Where is the mass destruction when you use WW2 Italy Tactics developed by Field Marshal Albert Kesselring – utilizing the natural defensive geography a series of defensive lines …
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Worst of all the Clans Sibko system Vs the IS military academy system – it is quite obvious that the Clans cannot ever recover from a loss depletion report based upon IS warfare - tactics and strategies.
Also the clans fighting is based upon their bidding process – a child’s variant of the horrors of total war!
Also where is the reverse engineering of Can Tech – whee are the mass IS omni weapon systems – as the first one should have been provided Wolf’s Dragoons.
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Lastly – sorry but the majority of writers selected are sub-par when you compare them to 40K or even Carlo Zen’s The Saga of Tanya the Evil.
The novels mut follow the game rules! And if you are not satisfied then write your own house rules!
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Sorry but I disagree there was never a HUGE military nurd – if there was then the level of stupidity / inept writing should have been minimised … there are just too many mistakes in the development of the story for it even to be consisted reasonable.
Quote:
there is no blatant historical equivalent that I can think of for the Wolves-in-exile, the Second Star League, Serpent/Bulldog, etc
How about WW2?
Research more – Winston had a German Unit – the king’s most loyal enemy aliens
The formation of the Allies
D-day Operation Neptune / Overlord.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/25/23 11:14 PM
38.48.39.237
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The leg issue for firing prone is if you still have the hip and upper leg actuator, you still have a leg that works for the rules, so as long as that is what Shin had, he was good.
The story doesn't follow the game rules because it's a story, dramatic, and not static. It is supposed to be fun to read, not boring. Glancing hits and such are there in the story to show how the nerve of a pilot breaks or how the next shot breaks the armor, etc...no; the rules don't cover those things, nor should they.
We can set up any battle from any of the novels and re-fight them and never come close to the outcome the authors came up with. Why? Because we aren't the writer of the story. We won't make the same choices as the writer. The dice will be rolled, and that will tell us what happens. That is why the game works as it does on both sides of this. The stories work because the tabletop game rules do not drive them, and the tabletop game is not beholden to the stories in the novel.
Yes, logic and BT don't mix well. Yes, the ranges are nerfed for tabletop play vs. needing the entire front yard to play in. And yes, the AC ranges are indeed backward, and not they are not artillery guns/cannons, regardless of what Sean and his asinine article tried to claim.
The tech stuff for the WoB is more of a lot of silly stuff pulled in...the Retro is New Again thing, the idea that they wanted to bring in older stuff, cool, but they had all these ideas that didn't fit well given that we had old tech aka 3025 era and we had Star League tech and Clan Tech. So they tossed in Retrotech with BAR and Primitive Armor, etc...all that went with it. Which in turn causes issues with how things go. Now you have a whole new line of mechs that are somehow popping up just in time to be thrown into this war that are all so old that working would be a stretch. Well thought out this stuff was not. Then take all the silliness from Maximum Tech and the Tactical Handbook, all the weapons and tech, shake them off, clean them up and toss that in, add in the Dark Age stuff that they had to shoehorn in since well because of WizKids and all that fun, and you get a mess. Tech is on the insane levels, every one has Clan tech or mix of Clan?inner Sphere munchkin tech and things stopped being fun, unless you liked to power game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/23 11:41 PM
38.48.39.237
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Adding in things to have as backdrops is great, I mean, after all, the planets in the Inner Sphere and known space are settled by people from Terra, and they will bring all their baggage with them, so the conflicts at all levels will be tagging along. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesn't understand humanity at all or that this is a sci-fi wargame.
I have argued the vehicles should have glancing hits as away to survive or get better treatment for internal hits and many of the so-called fans get up set, but your point about armor and all that is how it works, and it should be modeled to some degree for things. Yet it's not sadly.
Storywise things can be written out to be close to round hits but bounces because of the slope of the armor and the angle of the shot, and the math will back it up, that works there, game-wise, hit or miss, dice roll, try again if it's a miss. KISS is the best thing to have fun.
The older sourcebooks went for details and background. They gave us the stuff to fill in for the short burps that the rulebook sidebars of the box sets of 2nd Ed and Citytech didn't fully cover. They pulled us in. They gave us the background so each of us could pick a House or merc unit to like or dislike, which is what made the game different than, say, Robotech or other mecha games of the time. It had a universe of depth.
The sourcebooks, since, say, 2005 going forward, have been more about art and style and less about source material. Think about this, someone at FASA/FanPro/Wk/CGL (yes, all of them since the same folks are still there) had the brilliant idea to sell us a sourcebook FULL of pages of nothing but garbage. Pages of random letters and symbols. And they did it with the idea that the book was corrupted by the WoB or ComStar, and we fell for it as fans because we bought it. (And they (CGL) have to really wonder about the fans buying BT stuff?)
Plot armor is there for all the "favorites" folks who hated it when the Fed-Suns had it for so long, or when the Combine had it, etc...Kai has it so much that even when he makes mistakes, the plot armor makes the mistakes look life lessons for everyone. Like the old "No-Prize" when folks would write into Marvel Comics pointing out errors, and Stan and the writers would come up with some crazy way things still happened as written. Plot armor got abused way too much with WoB Story line to the point that it really hurt the game and makes it hard to buy into the plot.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/26/23 03:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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I very much understand the novels need to have something to excite the readers, and draw them in. This issue comes when players think they can do the same things the books do, because the novels say so.
If you take the novels as fiction of the game, and not a source book, then it isn't that bad. It may just be some of the players I played with. Much like the cartoon being touted as fully canon, so are the novels. That is where the discussion of the novels having an influence on the game.
Much like the flaws in movies, if you look at them as they are not canon, but pure entertainment, then you don't run into issues.
The issue from what I have seen from scenarios from the novels and such, doesn't appear to actually have been fought and written about. It appears to be just told that this or that happened, with no random dice rolls. They add in a few things to keep it looking like a real fight. It is very annoying that they change some rules to fit how they claim the outcome comes about, yet without the rule change on the spot, it could not be done.
I did run into a few things that annoyed me for a while. New material would come out in one book, and that was it. So you had to have several books to deal with a few things. And the proof reading was horrible. The original house Davion book introduced the Enforcer, and the stats were off on in. Same with a few other things. And yes. I believe they should have been flawless for things like that. If you didn't have 3025 TRO at the time, you didn't know what was going on. Yeah, it was only like 4 points total, but just like changing how infantry takes damage, it changes a lot of battles.
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Karagin
02/26/23 12:57 PM
38.48.39.237
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Okay, now we get to the issue. If a player is trying to mimic something from the novel in the tabletop game, stop them, and tell them that stuff is for the Roleplaying game.
The novels are canon, but they are not game rules; they are universe canon. Those are two different things. Nothing in the novels can translate to the rules of the game at all. While they may generate ideas, like hey, we should have rules for what happens when you roll, say, a 7 when you need an 8, aka a near miss, even then, all that does is stimulate someone to play the game a bit more. And at worse, write into CGL with their idea.
I think the problem your buddies are having is they are confusing the novels as something they are not. Rules do not come from or in the novels. Rules only come in the rulebooks, OR they come in the sourcebooks that include special sections for rules annexes, like Unit books or Secarnio packs, things like that. Not a single Battletech novel has rules related to the game in them; none of the FASA or other official ones do.
Proofreading has always been an issue with BT and books. It's part of the setting for them. And it hasn't gotten any better, either. They have allowed books to pass quality checks with double-printed pages or missing pages, so yeah there are issues. Right now, you need five different rule books to get all the rules vs. the old one book for the majority and then one or two extra for advanced stuff.
Some of the battles in the novels are written as they happened, and we get the post-battle report with next to no context. That can be an issue that is fixable in a sourcebook where they go back and flesh it out with some details of units, times, and places and move on. It would have been nice to get an Atlas of the Clan Wars as we did for the Fourth Succession Wars, which broke down more significant battles, showing units and terrain and all that. Same for the Davion Civil War. The problem was the LD that came on board as time passed had their own ideas, many of which didn't seem to care what fans wanted.
Some would listen, push some things out, and others would not, all depending on what lined up with what they were doing at the time and wanted to do themselves.
The cartoon got turned into canon latter on, much tater. When it came out, most of us laughed at it, it was cheesy and did't even cover the canon information right at the time. It had (still does) major flaws, and the way it showed things for the Inner Sphere made it look like GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS had devolved into some alternate universe as one friend put it. The cartoon was dismissed by many fans, it took on it's own life with the part of the fan base that was rabid and would say everything was awesome about the IP as a whole even when things were falling apart.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/26/23 03:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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A near miss is just that. A miss. To graze something isn't a near miss. That is not saying it is the same thing as a center of the mass shot, but it still inflicts damage, if the weapon is capable of doing so. And the capable part is important. A BB gun should to absolutely no damage to the armor of a modern tank, but may hurt personnel, like a gunner in the open.
A description of a 'near' miss with a PPC suggests lightning bolts traveling along the armor of a mech. The heat from such a thing is part of how it and lasers damage armor. Melting it. And yet nothing is said about infantry near the impact point being fried from the near hit.
As a side note, wouldn't the retro units have issues with the electric discharge of a PPC hit short out parts, possible shorting out the entire unit?
I got bored one day and read thru a battle, that had a few grazing shots. Had the damage been applied, the unit would have lost that part. Yet not having it applied would have allowed the unit to survive further shots. So like normal, plot armor decides damage done.
The Grey Death book had 6 heavy and assault mechs walk up a ramp shoulder to shoulder. Something that is forbidden in the books as they would have more then 2 mechs in the same hex, and they are not on opposite sides of the conflict. Which causes people to think that is legal. Not everyone has the rule books to read completely thru, and some of those that do, have not read them. The filling in the back story has change the history of the game by a lot. Retcons do so much more, when just shoved in there and not looked over first.
I guess this might be where I am getting the stubbornness to say the novels should follow the rules. It allows the writers to change things to fit the moment, yet destroys the past when it does so.
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Karagin
02/26/23 09:33 PM
38.48.39.237
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Books are NOT the game; they are stories telling us about things. Rulebooks trump the novels. If someone is trying to use the novels to justify something, then I would say they are trying to pull a fast one aka cheating, on you.
Retcons of the backstory don't change the basics of the game, though. The background of the universe changes the dice rolling stays the same. Also, some won't play with the new stuff at all. I know plenty who won't touch anything past the Fouth Succession War. Or past the Davion Civil War. Others won't use the Dark Age stuff in form.
I have not met anyone who takes the events from the novels and says that is how the tabletop game is played, and if I did, I would be happy to hand them a copy of the rulebook and say here, this is what the tabletop game uses. Let us teach you how this game is actually played, have a seat, and let's have fun.
What you mention is artistic license; they are being colorful about a battle to give the reader something to visualize, nothing more. If they make a movie, it should follow the source material, but we know that won't happen because of issues like where to start, depth of the IP and it's backstory and complex it is.
Near miss could mean a piloting roll is forced which caused the shot to miss or the target dodged at the last second, again all that fits more into the roleplaying side, not the tactical tabletop side.
On the Retrotech stuff, yeah PPCs and other things should cause major issues for the electronics and they should run super hot, along with radiation issues but hey again cool ideas that sounded great but never made full sense given what was already out that but got shoehorned in because of the LD and their buddies.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/28/23 07:44 PM
71.47.208.18
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As a general comment to most participants in the thread, this thread has gone way off the original topic and is into the rule 8 "no threadjacking" territory.
Please take your discussion to a new thread so I don't have to lock this one down.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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