TechWriter22
02/28/23 09:15 PM
154.16.192.44
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NOTE: This is a re-setting of the discussion ongoing in the "Succession War Anomalies" thread. I have posted my first post from page two, hopefully Karagin and Ghost Rider will repost their comments, and we can move forward from there:
This might jump around, because of several thoughts, so I've "*" new thoughts processes.
I was always under the impression that the Clans were the product of the story stalling; is this product just about five houses that continuously beat the snot out of each other, over and over again, or will something finally change? Even though BT revolves around the TT, I don't think the line developers at the time even considered it's effect on the game. The entire invasion is all real-world historical events laid over the BT universe: basically the Mongol horde mixed in with the first year or two of the Nazis Operation Barbarossa, right down to the concept of "Clans"- the Mongol horde wasn't one dedicated army, but literally a group of Clans held together by a ilKhan- the compound bows and Panzers having better range then their opponents, the death of the ilKhan causing a full retreat home, and Luthien subbing for Moscow. The only thing missing is Stalingrad and the sack of Baghdad.
The invasion is literary- something you create for fiction, not for a boardgame, because the insertion of the new technology into the rulebook immediately creates a massive imbalance. You can find innovative ways to counter it in fiction (like, say, inventing a caveat where the phone company has been hording tens of thousands of pieces of high-tech military gear, and one of the best generals in the universe happens to fall into their hands a decade before the invasion, and then back-filling the rolls with more advanced models of mechs and tanks to make the distinction even more profound) whereas in-game, you are constrained. It always struck me that it was likely that, sometime after all of that came to be- The "invading Clans" Sourcebook is 1995, but the first 3 Thurston novels are all 1991- someone went "Oh, when we plug in the Clan tech into the rules, its REALLY imbalances the game."
They made the same mistake again when they back-filled the Jihad with WoB's utterly unrealistic tech-jump (It takes 300 years for what is basically a military cult dedicated to making the best weapons in history to make a SLIGHTLY better laser, but cyborgs, insane weapons and super-mechs just magically appear in a decade?).
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Regardless, I'm a product of the very early video games and the original 60-odd books, plus the sourcebooks. Even as a teenager, I understood that the videogames weren't tactical- if you ever played multiplayer Mechwarrior 2, it became apparent very quickly- but, as someone who LOVES Sid Meier's Gettysburg/Atietam, Total War, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron, and all of the other "macro" real-time tactical games out there, I just always figured that the Mechwarrior series wasn't trying to be that, and that a tactical game would get made eventually (That thought got reinforced when they made "MechCommander- I thought a "Europa Universalis: Battletech" type game was imminent.... although, you CAN mod EU4, including the gamespace.....).
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I get the backlash against the Clan plot armor, and I think they have been poorly developed since Tukayyid, which I think was another point where the line developer got stuck, and thought "well, let's have them turn on each other, but, everyone knows Clan Wolf, so they'll just come out on top." and it just kept cascading from there. Paralysis through analysis- well, if we have Clan Wolf fail, people will be angry, so let's just keep them returning to victory- until you get an influx of popularity, and suddenly EVERYONE is asking why Clan Wolf's line development is so astonishingly dumb.
Either that, or Lauren Coleman REALLY likes them, and has mandated it- he was a shot-caller with FASA, so its not inconceivable.
But the Clan Wolf plot armor isn't a cause, its a symptom of a bigger problem. The newer fiction/sourcebooks have been bad and poorly written (and the bar on the originals weren't exactly "We should enter this for a Pulitzer" level amazing) for a LONG time, but they are also built off of increasingly bad ideas and line decisions, which has built off of increasingly bad.... well, you both sound like you have been around for a bit, so you know. Ilkhan might be fun to play because of the massive variety, but the line development is at "Bad Soap Opera/Telenovela" level quality, right down to the "twasn't me, twas my evil twin!". When you hit the twin markers "Evil Twin" and "Previously Unknown character materializes out of thin air and takes over the universe almost instantly with no real explanation of how he got there." you know the dumpster has been lit aflame.
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The individual small-unit mech vs mech tactics for the boardgame don't much attention for me, because it's not my bag, but I can definitely see the frustration in having a game that allows that kind of imbalance, especially one that currently has an influx of new players. Other than that, Ill avoid the TT conversation, because a) I don't play it, and b) I have won MANY missions in HBS' BT by stumping a lance of jump-capable assault mechs providing a harassment screen in front of massed artillery. :-)
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In order for a hand-held mech weapon to operate, it would have to be connected to the cockpit, which means it's not a "finger pulls the trigger" weapon- it's merely held in the hand because it (should, in theory) save space and tonnage in-universe, and because it can be dropped in an emergency for stompy murder robot fisticuffs. Or- and this is probably the truth for most designs- it looked cool. Either way, no trigger = no one-shot. Next time, just pick up the weapon and throw it at your opponent.
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WRT glancing shots, I have always wondered about things like this, especially armor angling: if you get hit with an AC shell, why does it ALWAYS hit flush, even in fiction? You NEVER see a line like:
"Rick danced the Shootist sideways, avoiding the incoming missiles from the Longbow, but his movements put him directly into the path of the Hunchback, which opened up with its massive canon. Rick lurched the Shootist away from the threat, but the shell slammed into the right shoulder of the Shootist, deflecting off of the sloped plate there and caroming off into the night with only minimal damage. "Got lucky there" Rick muttered, as he gritted his teeth and slammed a shell from his own AC/20 into the centre-mass of the Hunchback."
Which is basically the ENTIRE concept of armoured warfare- penetration vs thickness AND slope.
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I agree that the novels shouldn't follow the game rules.
The game rules are simplified versions of what the "in-universe" fighting would look like if it was real. In reality, if you're doing your due diligence (which the Battletech line has consistently failed to do) NOTHING is going to be standardized, and EVERY weapon from a different source- including from the same manufacturer- is going to have differences in damage level, quality, accuracy, etc. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are dozens of considerations to take into account. The fiction should be NOTHING like that game once you clear the "Battlemechs fire things at each other" bar. The technical details and nuances of armored combat should be where the books and lore shine, and move away from the game. It almost never does that, especially recently, but it would be far, far better if it did. I think once, long ago, someone wanted to go that way, which is why the lore isn't just "Inner Sphere Standard Autocannon 10" but a hodge-podge of manufacturers, model names of weapons that imply differences and a sub-universe of "fascinating-only-to-military-nerds-like-me" military industrial complex storyline/faction that needs to be teased out.
If you add that to the real-world historical nuances present in the back-drop, you get the idea that someone in the game's early development- say, up to the early 90s- was a HUGE military nerd, and wanted a piece of the game to reflect what he knew. It sort of ends with the Clan Invasion (there is no blatant historical equivalent that I can think of for the Wolves-in-exile, the Second Star League, Serpent/Bulldog, etc), and I think the IP is worse for it. But, yeah: an AC/20 does "20" damage in-game, but in-universe, if you're doing it right, even a "hit" could be only minor damage.
Don't get me started on whether an autocannon fires single-shot or burst, because its a single shell, like a tank fires today, and dependent upon calibre and loader speed, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool who doesn't understand how canons work. :-)
A mech "in-universe" is active so long as it can put its weapons on a target, legs or no legs. If a mech walks by and it can lash out with an arm, its realistically a threat, the same as if it props itself up by its arms so it can bring its torso-mounted weapons to bear. Mechanical design could restrict movement- the Stalker example- but also design limitations: for example, does the protruding torso of an Archer limit its ability to bring its missiles to bear in certain circumstances while on the ground, or can the launch angle of the missiles be adjusted from the cockpit/fire control system?
And, horizontal use of jump jets is plausible- I don't know what kind of range you'd be looking at (not much, I'd expect) and it would have to be more of a arcing flightpath, but a mech weighing W tons moving at X speed which uses force thrusters providing Y pounds (tons?) of force and powerful enough to carry it Z distance to augment its speed should be able to get SOME distance out of a horizontal movement, even if the mech was stationary.
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ghostrider
02/28/23 11:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is an issue that has to be looked at before a single house can be destroyed.
How many people will quit playing when their favorite house is destroyed? Even House Liao has fans that love to play it.
This is the main reason why the CC wasn't destroyed in the 4th war.
The story took a bad turn with the union of the FC. It created an economic powerhouse that had the ability to actually change the officer corps into something that wasn't based on social generals looking good.
I want to believe the clans were brought in to shake up the 'stalemate' of the game. Honestly, without Comstar helping Kurita in the 3039 war, the DC would have been badly hurt, and they were the main enemy to oppose the FC. Not only mechs and vehicles, but Comstar also stalled the FC's ability to make warships, as the only manufacturer was on Terra, owned by Comstar. A few plot armor holes shows the developers had to do something, like killing off the LC's generals that met once a week to discuss the war progress. Sounds very much like a set up there. The ghost regiments was possible, though a bit on the suspicious side of things. Having the FRR come to life, removed a large portion of what the DC had to heavily reinforce, now that the LC had leaders that were not more worried about looking good no matter the outcome.
The clan invasion had more then a few things that have to be answered, and wasn't. Given the history of the IS was to sneak in forces to attack garrisons, the clans did so without being detected? Only when they issued their Batchall or were hotdropping on the main defenders? I will say ECM did some major work to help this, but the fact houses had forces coast into orbit in order to attack, and still didn't cause as much of a problem says this is garbage. For periphery worlds, they would have telescopes being used to help spot pirates, so they would know by looking at the clan ships, they were NOT normal.
And nothing happened to Comstar once the IS found out they were preventing intel and emergency calls from getting thru.
And one huge plot hole that forms is the developers seemed to have forgotten the black box technology, that allowed text HPG messages to be sent, and yet never did. It would take a while to get to the destination, but there is nothing said in the future books of a message making it thru. Yet, the message from Luthien to New Avalon was the only one that made it. Black hole of a plot hole..
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ghostrider
02/28/23 11:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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The clans were set up to remove vehicles from needing to be used in their army. Mechs and Elementals can be hotdropped without much question. Even loaded back up faster then vehicles.
The clans were going to fight each other no matter what. It was how they were made. Once a weakness was found, someone would hammer it until it broke. The bs that the Wolves and Falcons were not ripped apart shows a preference to them, and the garbage of the scientists hidden warrior program, that just happened to save the Falcons is real bs plot armor. The entire FS portion of the clan invasion corridor should have folded with the Falcon/Wolf war. The home clans should have removed the invasion clans from their perches, with possibly the Ghost Bears remaining. The Jaguars couldn't take the DC. A second clan added to the Falcons and Jaguars couldn't do much to push forward. Yet the Diamond Sharks were supposed to be the first clan for back up, yet only fought on Tukkiyid? Something is wrong there. They would have been challenged when they weren't activated before then.
The idea that the clans only real progress for better targeting was the TC, is yet another plot hole. They improved the ECM which is against the concept of the clans, which issue a batchall before combat, so why need to sneak up on one another?
They went with a test of skills, with politics sneaking into their command even before they attacked the IS. Which given the story line, it seems they had to hit the IS, or risk the clans reverting back to the old ways of Alexander Kerensky. Politics, not warrior skill, would determine who rules. It was already showing in the invasion, and really came out after they were stopped.
It was the dream of restoring the SL and removing the barbarians that kept the clans together. Once that failed, they did what all corrupt governments do. Fight amongst themselves, trying to use politics to destroy what they can't on the battlefield.
The clans agreeing to lessen their forces for the RoTS era was another bunch of crap. It was only because the numbers of units was causing an issue, that the need to reduce them came about. The 20 year update nerfed a lot of forces, as it showed just how much the game moved away from a reality standpoint. The FC was pumping out so many units, they would have just overwhelmed the others by sheer numbers, and that would include if they still had social generals. The weak point here might be dropships and jumpships.
Which brings up another point. The clans targeted jumpships, yet nothing was done about it. No retaliation against the clans own jumpships.
And the weak point here, is once warships were being worked on, naval grade weapons would have been installed on at least the major worlds BEFORE the clans showed up. Yet the need for ground combat prevented this very thing.
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Karagin
03/01/23 12:34 AM
38.48.39.237
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The leg issue for firing prone is if you still have the hip and upper leg actuator, you still have a leg that works for the rules, so as long as that is what Shin had, he was good.
The story doesn't follow the game rules because it's a story, dramatic, and not static. It is supposed to be fun to read, not boring. Glancing hits and such are there in the story to show how the nerve of a pilot breaks or how the next shot breaks the armor, etc...no; the rules don't cover those things, nor should they.
We can set up any battle from any of the novels and re-fight them and never come close to the outcome the authors came up with. Why? Because we aren't the writer of the story. We won't make the same choices as the writer. The dice will be rolled, and that will tell us what happens. That is why the game works as it does on both sides of this. The stories work because the tabletop game rules do not drive them, and the tabletop game is not beholden to the stories in the novel.
Yes, logic and BT don't mix well. Yes, the ranges are nerfed for tabletop play vs. needing the entire front yard to play in. And yes, the AC ranges are indeed backward, and not they are not artillery guns/cannons, regardless of what Sean and his asinine article tried to claim.
The tech stuff for the WoB is more of a lot of silly stuff pulled in...the Retro is New Again thing, the idea that they wanted to bring in older stuff, cool, but they had all these ideas that didn't fit well given that we had old tech aka 3025 era and we had Star League tech and Clan Tech. So they tossed in Retrotech with BAR and Primitive Armor, etc...all that went with it. Which in turn causes issues with how things go. Now you have a whole new line of mechs that are somehow popping up just in time to be thrown into this war that are all so old that working would be a stretch. Well thought out this stuff was not. Then take all the silliness from Maximum Tech and the Tactical Handbook, all the weapons and tech, shake them off, clean them up and toss that in, add in the Dark Age stuff that they had to shoehorn in since well because of WizKids and all that fun, and you get a mess. Tech is on the insane levels, every one has Clan tech or mix of Clan?inner Sphere munchkin tech and things stopped being fun, unless you liked to power game.
Adding in things to have as backdrops is great, I mean, after all, the planets in the Inner Sphere and known space are settled by people from Terra, and they will bring all their baggage with them, so the conflicts at all levels will be tagging along. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesn't understand humanity at all or that this is a sci-fi wargame.
I have argued the vehicles should have glancing hits as away to survive or get better treatment for internal hits and many of the so-called fans get up set, but your point about armor and all that is how it works, and it should be modeled to some degree for things. Yet it's not sadly.
Storywise things can be written out to be close to round hits but bounces because of the slope of the armor and the angle of the shot, and the math will back it up, that works there, game-wise, hit or miss, dice roll, try again if it's a miss. KISS is the best thing to have fun.
The older sourcebooks went for details and background. They gave us the stuff to fill in for the short burps that the rulebook sidebars of the box sets of 2nd Ed and Citytech didn't fully cover. They pulled us in. They gave us the background so each of us could pick a House or merc unit to like or dislike, which is what made the game different than, say, Robotech or other mecha games of the time. It had a universe of depth.
The sourcebooks, since, say, 2005 going forward, have been more about art and style and less about source material. Think about this, someone at FASA/FanPro/Wk/CGL (yes, all of them since the same folks are still there) had the brilliant idea to sell us a sourcebook FULL of pages of nothing but garbage. Pages of random letters and symbols. And they did it with the idea that the book was corrupted by the WoB or ComStar, and we fell for it as fans because we bought it. (And they (CGL) have to really wonder about the fans buying BT stuff?)
Plot armor is there for all the "favorites" folks who hated it when the Fed-Suns had it for so long, or when the Combine had it, etc...Kai has it so much that even when he makes mistakes, the plot armor makes the mistakes look life lessons for everyone. Like the old "No-Prize" when folks would write into Marvel Comics pointing out errors, and Stan and the writers would come up with some crazy way things still happened as written. Plot armor got abused way too much with WoB Story line to the point that it really hurt the game and makes it hard to buy into the plot.
Okay, now we get to the issue. If a player is trying to mimic something from the novel in the tabletop game, stop them, and tell them that stuff is for the Roleplaying game.
The novels are canon, but they are not game rules; they are universe canon. Those are two different things. Nothing in the novels can translate to the rules of the game at all. While they may generate ideas, like hey, we should have rules for what happens when you roll, say, a 7 when you need an 8, aka a near miss, even then, all that does is stimulate someone to play the game a bit more. And at worse, write into CGL with their idea.
I think the problem your buddies are having is they are confusing the novels as something they are not. Rules do not come from or in the novels. Rules only come in the rulebooks, OR they come in the sourcebooks that include special sections for rules annexes, like Unit books or Secarnio packs, things like that. Not a single Battletech novel has rules related to the game in them; none of the FASA or other official ones do.
Proofreading has always been an issue with BT and books. It's part of the setting for them. And it hasn't gotten any better, either. They have allowed books to pass quality checks with double-printed pages or missing pages, so yeah there are issues. Right now, you need five different rule books to get all the rules vs. the old one book for the majority and then one or two extra for advanced stuff.
Some of the battles in the novels are written as they happened, and we get the post-battle report with next to no context. That can be an issue that is fixable in a sourcebook where they go back and flesh it out with some details of units, times, and places and move on. It would have been nice to get an Atlas of the Clan Wars as we did for the Fourth Succession Wars, which broke down more significant battles, showing units and terrain and all that. Same for the Davion Civil War. The problem was the LD that came on board as time passed had their own ideas, many of which didn't seem to care what fans wanted.
Some would listen, push some things out, and others would not, all depending on what lined up with what they were doing at the time and wanted to do themselves.
The cartoon got turned into canon latter on, much tater. When it came out, most of us laughed at it, it was cheesy and did't even cover the canon information right at the time. It had (still does) major flaws, and the way it showed things for the Inner Sphere made it look like GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS had devolved into some alternate universe as one friend put it. The cartoon was dismissed by many fans, it took on it's own life with the part of the fan base that was rabid and would say everything was awesome about the IP as a whole even when things were falling apart.
Books are NOT the game; they are stories telling us about things. Rulebooks trump the novels. If someone is trying to use the novels to justify something, then I would say they are trying to pull a fast one aka cheating, on you.
Retcons of the backstory don't change the basics of the game, though. The background of the universe changes the dice rolling stays the same. Also, some won't play with the new stuff at all. I know plenty who won't touch anything past the Fouth Succession War. Or past the Davion Civil War. Others won't use the Dark Age stuff in form.
I have not met anyone who takes the events from the novels and says that is how the tabletop game is played, and if I did, I would be happy to hand them a copy of the rulebook and say here, this is what the tabletop game uses. Let us teach you how this game is actually played, have a seat, and let's have fun.
What you mention is artistic license; they are being colorful about a battle to give the reader something to visualize, nothing more. If they make a movie, it should follow the source material, but we know that won't happen because of issues like where to start, the depth of the IP, and it's backstory, and complex it is.
Near miss could mean a piloting roll is forced, which caused the shot to miss or the target dodged at the last second, again, all that fits more into the roleplaying side, not the tactical tabletop side.
On the Retrotech stuff, yeah PPCs and other things should cause major issues for the electronics, and they should run super hot, along with radiation issues, but hey, again, cool ideas that sounded great but never made full sense given what was already out that but got shoehorned in because of the LD and their buddies.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/01/23 12:53 AM
38.48.39.237
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On the point of a faction getting wiped out, it should happen, but it should be done so that it makes sense. How they removed Amaris made sense. Okay, his toppling the Star League and killing the Camerons is an excellent reason to wipe out Rim World Republic. How it was written about over the years didn't change that much. Yes, some things got fleshed out, like more was added when the Periphery Sourcebook came out (the original one), and then bits and pieces here and there in other sourcebooks. All of that kept things vague and dark and gave ancient history feel.
Then like how most history goes, more is given about it, oh look, a new "book" by some historian on New Avalon about Star League collapsed, and this time, it's got further information that has just been discovered, just like the last 130 some books over the previous three centuries since it fell have had. You know, how we still are getting new books about things even today about battles and events from thousands of years ago written up with some new nugget of info that comes from the grazing pattern of the goats the locals had to feed the armies fighting the battle etc...you get the point.
Then let's jump to Operation Bulldog. This idea is that one of the Clans needs to die off to advance the story. Why? Were things that hard to come up with ideas for them to give us intrigue and power plays within the dynamic of the Inner Sphere that an entire Clan had to be wiped out?
What was stopped the Falcons or the Jaguars from pushing down the truce line? The Treaty said they could not cross it; why didn't that avenue of fighting and such get attention used to keep things going? That could have been a big playing piece into what I am about to point out regarding big plot holes.
See if the then Powers that Be in the mid90s had used the Jaguars pushing into the Combine towards the Truce Line, and the Combine having gotten all the help from the Dragoons and House Marik with the upgrades and the support coming in from the Fed-Com as well, even with them pressed against Falcons trying the same gambit, it would have been possible enough to bloody the Jaguars sufficiently that they were taking the loses that we see in the mess that we were given as far as Operation Bulldog and the End of Clan Smoke Jaguar.
The Clans would still be doing their inter-Clan fighting over new tech, new bloodlines, planets, their normal trials, and such. So not only would the Jaguars have the Combine to deal with but the Bears, the Wolves, Nova Cats, etc...
However, we got some crazy story of them being so severely mauled by Luthien and Wolcott and Tuykkiad that they had to resort to using Inner Sphere mechs for their second and their line units and some first-line units. Then a disgruntled Jaguar warrior betrays his Clan, and BOOM, the Inner Sphere can get their chance and does the impossible because of plot armor and character armor.
It feels like we could have gotten a lot more out of the post-Tuykkiad timeframe run-up to the Fed-Com Civil War than we did. Ghostrider and I went back and forth on this what if as while back. But it shows that the fans can come up with better plots/stories than the powers that be, and we are only spit balling things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/01/23 11:33 AM
45.51.181.83
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As I have said to someone before about points in the game. Use canon facts to argue canon facts. I say this as the game states the AC fires a burst. Given the game's turn is supposed to be 10 seconds, it is possible for an AC to fire a couple of single shots in that time frame, and the game says it is a burst fire method. There are videos of real time firing from tanks from today that fired 2 shots in under 3 seconds, so it is possible. Though not sure why it wouldn't be possible for faster fire rates from a canon in the future. The idea of clips, like some of the old rifles does make sense here, and would explain the jams that happen in the ultra cannons. Though not sure why there is no chance to jam in the normal cannons.
Which may be why some of the video games allowed you to dump almost an entire ton of ammo before your energy weapons recharged.
And no. Logic of the real world isn't part of the game, but can be used to argue game logic. The idea of the magical jumping abilities of jump ships has to be ignored for a jump to be possible. And the ship doesn't seem to have to be stationary or pointed towards the destination.
I understand trying to fill in things from the 'past'. The issue with this is they change some of the outcomes as it appears that they forget things, or don't think about how their new 'data' changes what is there.
Retrotech would have made more sense in the 2nd to 3rd succession war, rather then during the RoTS time frame. During the time that the factory situation would have been dire, especially in areas in the periphery.
One major plot hole comes from the fact that the leader of a realm that the SLDF was at war with, was even allowed to get close to, much less become friendly with, the leader of the SL. There is no way Amaris should have been allowed near Richard during that time frame. It would be a little more acceptable had he done so before the periphery war, but not during.
It is also a plot hole that the black box technology came out just before the main HPG station, yet the SL supposedly stopped using that entirely. Having a device that can contact other star systems, without others knowing you are doing it, sounds so much like black ops material, but nothing like that happened.
Then the mobile HPG came out, and yet no examples were ever found of them? A stash would have to be found once in a while. Even ones that were in a small shop for repair of the drive train, with the HPG in tact would have happened.
Which leads into the fact that SL weapons and mechs were never said to be found in caches during the history of the war, especially once the SL tech was 'forgotten'. A batch of ERLLs would be a diety send.
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Requiem
03/01/23 06:27 PM
1.158.193.188
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it should be done so that it makes sense
However, as pointed out to me, and the reason why I am in Coventry, this is BattleTech’s Canon History and as such is allowed to go right off the fairway to a point that the fairway can no longer be seen as Canon history is inviolate to all forms of ridicule!
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How they removed Amaris made sense.
ROFL …
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his toppling the Star League and killing the Camerons is an excellent reason to wipe out Rim World Republic.
Problem – Collective punishment is currently considered to be strictly prohibited under international law … except for …………… (unable to discuss as red flag would shut down site) …….. and is banned not only by the instruments of international humanitarian law, but also by human rights conventions that apply during peacetime ad armed conflicts, including occupation.
The much vaunted Fourth Geneva Convention …
Article 33 of the 1949 convention states: “No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective punishment and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.” It adds: “Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.”
If the SL is an occupying power of the Rim Worlds reiterates that their position on protected persons further in Article 53: “Any destruction by the occupying power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons […] is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely by military operations.”
This slight caveat, therefore, would only apply if an armed resistance (rim worlds military) group was using the building to open fire upon occupying power’s army (ie the SLDF)
However, at this point many individuals would point out that this is in the far future where these conventions are no longer enforceable … and collective punishment have become the norm … Then I would point out that the Cameron Star League is no longer an egalitarian humanitarian stare that vales human rights … it is a state that has one set of rules for those within internal borders and another for those within external borders – thus doesn’t the peoples within the external setting have a right to stand up for the way they are being treated?
But Canon is Canon and for the majority this is great and wonderful … so I hope you appreciate the DC and CC legal framework compared to FWL, LC and FS.
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All of that kept things vague and dark and gave ancient history feel.
More likely they hired dime novelists and got what they paid for – whereas other’s like 40K / Star Wars obtained the best – how are their business models / scope of business / profit of business for their table top games in comparison?
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how we still are getting new books about things even today about battles and events from thousands of years ago
More likely to be personal opinions than anything else at this point in time rather than any real hard facts. … That is unless a data storage module was found providing real time voice recordings of the battle / or when countries lift their 99 year classified status due to freedom of information requests … and how often does pertinent information being released occur?
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Operation Bulldog.
ROFL ….
WW2 analogy – let Germany keep Poland, France etc … just wage war to obtain Italy!
Question – did anyone pick up a history book and think things through? Or was it even at this stage that the Clans were to remain behind no matter what so that the IS found itself in the 3150 mess it is in currently so no matter what kind of a diatribe the story had to become to get it there.
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had used the Jaguars pushing into the Combine towards the Truce Line
Problem – they were already on the truce line … thus they could only expand by invading the DC or by breaking the truce and continuing the war … so when does this occur as this will determine the level of response available via the new SLDF.
The big problem, however, is the Generals – you know the ones that fought the last Succession War – they are all still trapped in an existential box so as to not disrupt the most inept war ever to have been thought up, and that is saying something!
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The Clans would still be doing their inter-Clan fighting
Question – how are they supposed to replace all these lost warriors? Their Sibko’s / trial of positions have yet to be amended to reflect their requirements for vast new armies … they are quite incapable of maintain law and order on the majority of their worlds as the population number Vs Clan numbers are so vast as to be laughable …. And the list of problems goes on and on ….
For example how does the Bears (and all other Clans) transport their entire population from the Clan Home worlds to the IS? As no one has ever been able to adequately explain this yet, and yet we are just supposed to go along with the idea that it did occur and that the population of every world captured just accepted their new way of life that included giving up their last name and having their children sent to work by their new overlords as they were no longer aloud to go to school or University etc …
At this point all we can do is groan about the complete absurdity of the majority of the Clan Invasion …..
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they had to resort to using Inner Sphere mechs … a disgruntled Jaguar warrior betrays his Clan
Actually this makes sense … there logistics is half a year distant and their manufacturing facilities are not geared for total IS war … it only makes sense that over time their loss depletion report will require hard choices due to battlefield damage ….
As for the warrior betraying the clans … in all reality it would have been a techie (seduced by living in the IS and an IS person rather than living under the repressive lifestyle of the Clans … the open IS lifestyle Vs the Closed repressive Clan is a no brainer and easy to manipulate via psyops military teams.
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Ghostrider and I went back and forth on this
At this stage I was still also a participant and was the main person for new ideas … whereas others kept on stating why it was never possible … please refer Alt History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of IS (General pg 3).
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As I have said to someone before about points in the game. Use canon facts to argue canon facts.
That’s me if anyone is interested.
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the game states the AC fires a burst
Who cares when the game states eg AC-5 Ammo per ton 20 you therefore have 20 shots for 1 ton of ammo it does not say there are 4 rounds for each shot so in reality you have 80 rounds. Also the damage is all or nothing – so really what is the point of harping on about if it is burst or not?
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There are videos of real time firing from tanks from today that fired 2 shots in under 3 seconds
And
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Logic of the real world isn't part of the game, but can be used to argue game logic.
As noted by you above “Use canon facts to argue canon facts”
Thus isn’t this statement ‘illegal’ by your own canon fact requirement?
So am I now allowed to use real life examples or not? As last time I was called a Troll for doing just that!
And has been used as the basis of placing me in Coventry – so is it in or not or is it just a ruling against me?
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Retrotech would have made more sense in the 2nd to 3rd succession war
When Mechs were first introduced on the battlefield …. Not 2nd and 3rd
As for RoTS …. ROFL as this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever even in the Periphery states!
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There is no way Amaris should have been allowed near Richard during that time frame.
Historical Fact – One he was ambassador – two had dual citizenship – three has a strong proponent for Richard’s policies (even changed the name of his capitol world ….)– Four was a father figure to Richard as Kerensky has all the warmth of a dead fish … remember Kerensky
So there was never any way to keep them apart
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black box technology
Black Box - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box
K-0 Series – 2580
Hyperpulse generator https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
First station built 2629 – first message New Year’s Day 2630.
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Then the mobile HPG came out, and yet no examples were ever found of them?
Whereas every naval fleet would require one to replace any small ships used to transfer messages back and forward between fleet and homebase!
Thus every house should have known how to operate HPGs so what is poing of even having ComStar post destruction of the SL?
Quote:
SL weapons and mechs were never said to be found in caches during the history of the war
2870 – FS discovers Star League Engineering Library on Achernar, including schematics for what will become the Enfield BattleMech.
Would this count?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/02/23 02:03 AM
45.51.181.83
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It is kind of funny how some of the SL weapons did not add weight. The entire ER series weapons were that way.
And the Streak missiles didn't change the ammo weight and size, just the launcher.
During all of this time, the clans never improved the range of jumpship, nor the HPGs they had.
One thing that does bother me some, is the fact the clans can take new tech and make it better in a short amount of time, yet they didn't increase things beyond what they did.
With all the advanced tech going around, they were able to reduce the weight of missiles launchers, but not ACs. Or create a way to vent the AC gasses, that allowed the firing of some without the heat build up.
The big plot hole I have thought about some, is the fact no one tried to assassinate Katherine Steiner, when they finally caught her. So many suffered from her little games, I would have figured at least one person would have killed her instead of letting her live in a luxury prison. Maybe even taking out others around her, just to get her. That would remove the entire future story line, but it would have made more sense.
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Requiem
03/02/23 06:33 AM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
the fact no one tried to assassinate Katherine Steiner-Davion
Sorry but isn’t the ‘real’ plot hole that no one tried to assassinate Victor Steiner-Davion due to the fact he started the Civil War based upon an erroneous premise – Kathrine did not kill their brother … he wasn’t even dead he was kidnapped he didn’t even wait for the police to provide an accurate assessment of the crime scene … so when this fact, his brother was sent to a re-education camp, did he even say sorry?
So how many families, who suffered a fatal misfortune, and would desire revenge on a power-hungry egomaniac?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
03/02/23 09:12 AM
38.48.39.237
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Weapons tech and logic aren't hand and hand in BT. That is not going to change.
As for Katherine, who cares? She was a poorly written character, mainly there as a foil for Victor and string for the poorly written Fed-Com Civil War. It was like the powers that be wanted her grandmother back but knew that wouldn't fly, so they went with whinny brat who didn't even get any character development, and plop, we have a nutcase running around who makes more mistakes than the average Hollywood C movie villain can dream of.
Bigger plot hole; why didn't Mairk attack Laio with prodding from the Fed-Com?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/02/23 12:22 PM
45.51.181.83
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I can see Marik trying to leave a buffer between him and Davion, but once the Davions took the tip touching Terra, he would have had to do something. Even if it was nothing more then support Candace to succeed Max. That would have turned the border to a neutral statis. Or even invade and put a puppet on the throne. Keep the CC as a separate nation, to try and keep the buffer there without burdening the FWL with trying to protect and rebuild the area. This is akin to the FRRs purpose and why the DC 'allowed' it to leave.
But the fact that the only actions from the FWL area was Andurian shows a problem.
I could also see Marik backing someone trying to take the throne from the Liao family entirely. Put a new family on the throne. Given the history of the Liao's, he could very well see the attack on the CC had to do with yet another scheme. I'm not sure if others knew the attack was retaliation from the double scheme. The land grab was the 'purpose' of the 4th war, yet we the readers seen the 'real' story.
Removing the Liaos before Candace broke with them, may have stopped the war, though I doubt it. As stated before, the lack of attack on Capella and the ship yards is another plot hole. Just enough damage to stop production and repairs of jumpships would have forced the CC into a major hole, and prevent them from doing anything for a few years, giving the FC troops time to calm things down a little. It may have even exposed Comstars behind the scenes actions, as they would probably have tried to help the CC. Maybe WOB would have shown their hands earlier as well.
It might well be Marik didn't want to get into the war, and hitting the CC would have opened him up to a full scale attack, instead of the 'little' war he was involved in. It may well be he thought the other houses would finally remove him from power, as those that wanted war, weren't the majority. Or would have started another civil war in the FWL. The Davion spies had done a great job keeping pressure on Marik to avoid things, it may well be when they lost their funding for a while, the call to remove house Liao lessened.
Given what the FWL had all those 'rebellious' entities in it, trying to add the CC worlds would have finally been too much for SAFE and the others.
I know there isn't a huge amount of data that supports any of the above possibilities, but they do bring out some discussion material or food for thought.
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Requiem
03/02/23 04:13 PM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
As for Katherine, who cares? … a foil for Victor … whinny brat … [no] character development … a nutcase running around who makes … mistakes
As a leader of an IS House she is far superior than that of Victor … who refuses to govern, as he enamoured by the way of the warrior as refuses for a very long time to exit from the ‘mech cockpit, and who can be seen as making far more mistakes.
If she is such a poorly developed character then why does he character evoke such strong emotions by all within the game?
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why didn't Mairk attack Laio with prodding from the Fed-Com?
Question – in what era are you referring to?
Considering the most opportune time – Janos Marik – Fourth Succession War.
Why? short-sighted and inefficient leader – requires a more Machiavellian touch.
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a buffer between him and Davion
What buffer? as the only buffer remaining from Fourth succession onwards assists Dutchy of Amdurien – who later instigated a secession.
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support Candace
Sorry but she is as mad as it comes … no trust, no support.
Also how big is the CC at this stage?
As stated may times TPTB miscalculated the war of 39 – DC is NOT the Target CC is!
The correct move post Fourth Succession War / war 3039– arrange an alliance with Fed-Com – marriage Marik to Steiner-Davion
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Marik backing someone trying to take the throne from the Liao family entirely
Sorry but there shouldn’t have been a throne to put anyone on it – CC should have ceased to exist!
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Removing the Liaos before Candace broke with them, may have stopped the war
Sorry again – war to the death – a change in leadership would not have stopped the war – it would have one hastened the demise of the CC.
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the lack of attack on Capella and the ship yards
As shown in my posts TPTB’s strategy is completely ridiculous … Hanse is supposed to be the greatest warrior of his age … thus strategy should have been the capture of all remaining military industrial capabilities – take them away in the early days of the Fourth Succession War and the CC will cease to exist!
Even ComStar would not have been in a position to interfere!
they do bring out some discussion material or food for thought.
This has been gone over ad nauseam in other posts …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
03/02/23 04:47 PM
38.48.39.237
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They could have done something. I mean, Marik now has a long border with the Fed-Com...and a short one with CapCon...let's see...who is the bigger threat?
Fed-Com
Who is the most dangerous threat to things both long and short term? Max and his nut case daughter Romano...
Who aided my brother in the civil war that almost gutted my realm and allowed all sorts of wrong things to happen? Laio...yeah time to go pay them back for that.
But instead, they sat there and had their seasonal internal meltdown. Makes perfect sense.
Removing Max and the insane part of the Laios and putting Cadence on the throne would have made more sense for old Hanse long term. Laio would have still been around and still a player in things, but not the nutcase version.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/02/23 06:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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I agree with the concept of taking out Liao. I do think there are other things that come into effect that should be considered as well, not saying they are huge factors.
The first is when the rulers in the FWL get bored, who are they going to harass and attack? With the CC gone, they would be poking the FC. Yes, the periphery would be another, but given the fact that they should not last long against the FWL without the CC as a threat, they would be less annoying to the FWL.
Having the FWL have a full border with the FS portion of the FC, it might encourage the TC and others to step up their harassment of the FS. The CC wasn't all those much of a threat to the FS, outside of Hasek's intel. With this leak gone, and even during the war, the 'reinforcement' of the CC would have been necessary, and to prevent hostilities, annexing portions to allow FWL forces to occupy... er garrison worlds.
Having the FS on the border, would mean more cries from those leaders when they get retaliated against for those very pokes. And that is not saying the FS wouldn't be heavily raiding the FWL/CC areas, and even moving to the LC border.
The idea of removing Max and Romano would definitely tempt Janos into attacking. There is a future problem of Andurian, as they would gain power that might not be contained. Not only would they gain territory for the Duchy, but even more influence on the political court. They would be seen as more capable then Janos, as they would be taking down a hated foe for parts of the FWL, something the Mariks have not been able to do.
Then the issue of getting the providences to actually contribute troops and supplies for that war effort. Most would balk at sending their forces outside of their province, as they did with the war against the LC. They wait and see which province gets hurt and hit them comes to mind.
Though a thought does come to mind. If they did remove the CC, the FWL might be able to open markets in the periphery, including the TC. This would allow FWL forces to basically surround the Capellan March with forces.
The trade would create a boom to FWL funds as well. Maybe even net them full access to the TCs war production. It might even allow them access to forces that can hit the pirates near the FWL without weakening the FWL,
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Karagin
03/02/23 09:29 PM
38.48.39.237
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That has possibility, and it opens up some other plot holes and issues. We hear about trade and jump routes, but we never really see much of that. The routes, which I have asked about before, aren't really mapped out for players to see, or for GMs to use. That is something that is lacking in this game.
We all agree that in the course of the Star League, no improvements were made to the jump drives/engines save a one-off experiment that could or couldn't have happened via the Mechwarrior Scenario pack LIVING LEGENDS about the time traveling (never a good idea for an IP to do) SLS MANASSAS, which again we all agree seem highly unlikely since it would be something the Star League and the Hegemony would be seen as a high priority. That means nothing has changed for travel since the first jumpship got its significant overhaul and the 30-year light jump limit. So why would they put in place an artificial limit on improving things? Better FTL drive better HPG—two things the Star League would want to monopolize on forever.
Lyran merchants would be ticked to find that Terrans beat them to new markets in the Periphery because they had better drives. This would then, in turn, feed right back into the warfare part of the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
03/03/23 02:56 AM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
Who is the most dangerous threat to things both long and short term? Max and his nut case daughter Romano...
Sorry but I disagree.
Given the number of Units remaining post 4th Succession War the CC is now on par with a Periphery Realm for its fighting capability!
At this stage the Suns, League and Magistracy should have devoured what was remaining ….
As for Candace – with the death of the CC the only throne she will see is St. Ives. Hanse will need to honour his wedding toast “… and now I give you the Capellan Confederation.”
Quote:
With the CC gone, they would be poking the FC.
Magistracy of Canopus alliance with Duchy of Andurien should have remained and expanded with worlds acquired from the former CC – such as Beetlejuice (very important economic world)
This could have even caused a ripple effect within the FWL where other members decide to leave the FWL.
Quote:
And that is not saying the FS wouldn't be heavily raiding the FWL/CC areas, and even moving to the LC border.
FWL border – Fed Com forces can be placated with a non-aggression pact – secret clause of marriage with 1st child (Victor).
CC border – now irrelevant as the CC no longer exist - So replace with St. Ives – and at this stage they are a client state of Fed-Com (so not a threat) Though they do have the potential of expanding in the future and becoming a threat then.
Quote:
The idea of removing Max and Romano would definitely tempt Janos into attacking.
Fourth Succession War ends – January 3030
Succession – Duchy of Andurien – September 3030
Janos suffers a stroke – October 3030
Thomas reappears – January 3031 – takes on the position of Regent until Janos’s assassination in 3035.
Only viable timeline, therefore, is Feb – Aug 3030 – however wouldn’t the people of the FWL be weary of war at this stage? Politically difficult to initiate back to back wars and still remain as Capt. Gen. of FWL?
Quote:
If they did remove the CC, the FWL might be able to open markets in the periphery,
How? As a trade route into Canopus would require legitimizing the new Andurien / Canopus alliance and a trade route into the Concordat would require either going through the FS or the DoA / MoC – or are they going to open a new trade route into the deep periphery bypassing the MoC and ending in TC?
Thus this new trade route sounds like it is a ‘pie in the sky’ venture to me.
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allow them access to forces that can hit the pirates near the FWL without weakening the FWL
Sorry but the pirates aren’t they in the periphery and near the FWL / FC border – thus a vast distance from MoC / TC space?
Quote:
Scenario pack LIVING LEGENDS
So what did happen to the crew of this lost ship in time? As both historians and technicians would want to interview – make use of their skills – provide information as to the real Amaris war history and the people in it.
Also their knowledge of Kerensky / Amaris war could be weaponised by a psyops team and used against them – by proving Kerensky was not the saint they believe him to be …
Quote:
So why would they put in place an artificial limit on improving things?
Lack of vision? Or the back story was rushed through with little to no thought? – would explain a great many holes in the early history of the game.
Quote:
Lyran merchants would be ticked to find that Terrans beat them to new markets in the Periphery because they had better drives.
The point is competitive advantage of one company over another - economies of scale (reduced costs) however new ships would cost more thus would take longer to pay off loan with bank – profit margin is therefore questionable – transporting perishables (reduced time) – thus new market opportunities – unless a Lyran world is close enough and has the perishables on hand – do these new ships allow more (and larger) dropships – ability to transport vastly more goods?
Many questions need to be considered and answered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/03/23 02:57 AM)
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ghostrider
03/03/23 01:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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I can actually see scenarios where the SL did have better jump drives, and that is how they were able to build some of the secret facilities, yet that information never got out. As any nation can 'post' ships and agents at jump points, or keep telescopes targeting them, the idea of finding out where a secret base is being built lessens quite a bit. Knowing the jumpship 'whocares', was followed thru 5 jumps, it is very likely when it disappears on the 6th jump, only to reappear a couple of weeks later, you know it went 'dark' going towards it's 6 jump point. Max 30 light year radius and you know where to start looking.
Granted, this is easier when more systems were inhabited, as jumping into dead systems becomes harder to track.
Still. When the drives first came out, the fact they could even jump 30 light years, would be interesting, as they could jump far shorter distances. The fact that the first jump was from one jump point to the other in Sol, there doesn't seem to be a minimum jump distance.
I would like to know if you could jump say 40k at the same jump point. Useful tactic if you are in a warship and the enemy attacks from a different location in the same jump area, and you are protecting say a station, but was patrolling the point. Or making sure a particular ship doesn't escape.
Which also brings up the question on if a jumpship can jump if another large vessel is docked with it, IE an Inturder dropship that is currently boarding the jumpship, or another attached to it. According to what has been written and said, it should force the jump to abort, as it is over the number of ships attached to it, vie the fact that the rules did not allow stacking dropships like you can with the non canon Argo.
The range of the HPG makes less sense with the limit. 50 light years for just sending energy from one location to another. The fact you can send a Monolith Jump full of Behemoth dropshops full to the brim 30 lightyears, but data is only 20 lightyears further.
I would suggest they could send message much further before the jihad then was known. Comstar's ability for ROM to do their work without any outside interference. It may well have been only known to ROM agents working in the relay facilities, which the masses of adepts working there, never knew.
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Requiem
03/03/23 05:17 PM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
scenarios where the SL did have better jump drives, and that is how they were able to build some of the secret facilities
Sorry, mutually exclusive statement – situation used to describe when two or more events that cannot happen simultaneously.
Even if you have the old jump drives you can still mass produce hidden secret facilities.
Quote:
Tracking Jump-ships
Bug-eye https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bug-Eye
Tactical stealth surveillance ship – Note: These ships maintained COMPACT JUMP DRIVE and dual massive interplanetary drives (speed and agility).
Note: the only means of tracking a jump is via the ability to hack into another ships navi-computer system to determine jump point exit otherwise there has yet to be created a “radar” system that can detect a ship re-entry point at 30 light years or less …
Thus if you do not hack the ships jump exit point from the navi-computer there is absolutely no way to track it.
Also remember for every one known jump point there are THOUSANDS of unknown jump-points within a 30 light year radius – thus you could spend years to decades searching for a hidden base in any 30 light year radius.
Quote:
micro-jumps
Given the distance of the first jump – as well as having the ability to jump around Terra’s sun at the same time all military (and civilian) MUST HAVE the ability to execute micro jumps based upon their radar system used to evade suns etc during a jump – couple this with the ability to execute miro interplanetary drives within system then the ability to strike a warship using non-energy weapons should become futile – thus all non-energy weapons upon a warship should be considered obsolete as the ship should have an AI that can just reposition itself to fens off non-energy weapons (too slow to hit a ship over vast distances).
All naval warship battles should be conducted utilizing energy weapons and a dance of micro “jumps” to gain a better position to fire their energy weapons before their enemy has the ability to fire theirs – thus the ship with the better AI computer should have the tactical advantage over its enemy.
However – TPTB decided that this black hole should never come to light as ships are forbidden to use their interplanetary drives to gain a better firing position as well as utilizing non-energy weapons that should be too slow to even hit a ship given its rudimentary advanced surveillance equipment (as per the first Jump-ship jumping around the Terra’s sun to reach the other side).
Then there is the issue of comparative velocities whist utilizing interplanetary drives – even at these velocities two ships should be able to use their lasers to attack each other due to simple fact the lasers are moving at the faster velocity – the speed of light.
Thus if a ship is making a run to reach safe space, from which they can make a jump, then a faster ship must have the ability to chase it down and engage it using laser weapons whist it is attempting to escape out of the system … another point that is not allowed (yet should be).
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if a jumpship can jump if another large vessel is docked with it
Simple answer – no
Tidal stresses – electromagnetic pulse (15 astronomical units – 2.25 billion Km)
Quote:
sending messages further
Yes I agree – HPG as well as jumps should – over time – have the ability to increase.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/03/23 06:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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Thinking about it a little more, I wonder if WOB didn't install more stations in dead or deep space, that allowed them to further the ranges, without anyone knowing they were there. That could keep with the 50 lightyear range, but make it look like they had super range facilities at that point. Yes, this is a workaround to the super improvement.
Physics comes into play with jumpships in general. The question on if a ship docks, and adding in, or even rams a jumpship before it jumps, does it jump with the object lodged into it? Or abort the jump?
As been questioned, a ship designed to have a second ship docked to it on a jumpship, and both are within the K-F field, should not be a problem. There is no weight limit given for a jumpship to jump, nor is there a problem with number of ships that can be docked, IE fighters and shuttles, is posted anywhere. As long as the jump ships computers have the weight and dimensions figured out, it jumps. The docking collars as supposed to relay the ships information to the jumpship to calculate this. It should not matter how many are docked, and are inside the field, as the last one would send the information of ALL the ships docked to it. The jumpship doesn't care if it is a Behemoth or a pair of Leopards. Just the weight and if they fit in the field. And if it does, well the excess gets ripped off when it jumps.
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Karagin
03/03/23 08:04 PM
38.48.39.237
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Those do sound llike good reason for how those things do happen.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
03/04/23 12:11 AM
1.158.193.188
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Quote:
if WOB didn't install more stations in dead or deep space, that allowed them to further the ranges
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Space_Station#Recharge_Stations
Recharge Station – primary purpose to recharge Jumpships …
Note: any House that can manufacture these also has the ability to utilize them for covert use – especially for mass invasions where the invasion embarkation point is a hidden military facility located close to a border that is about to be crossed …
Quote:
As been questioned, a ship designed to have a second ship docked to it on a jumpship, and both are within the K-F field, should not be a problem.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/JumpShip
sorry still … No, one jumpship cannot jump with another jumpship attached to it … please refer to the rule under the subtitle …. Jump
“ ….The presence of another K-F drive coil, even a damaged one, within a certain proximity inhibits the correct formation of a K-F field. It is therefore impossible to move (jump) a fully assembled K-F drive as cargo or to recover a stranded JumpShip; unless they elect to scrap their drive coil, JumpShips must jump under their own power.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/04/23 05:51 AM
1.158.193.188
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Why are there no missiles / ships that can be used as a means of ensuring a ship cannot jump?
That is to say customs and excise upon key worlds could have shuttle craft that contain a damaged K-F drive coil to ensure that the Jump-ship in question remains in place.
Plus Battle-Sats could have military missiles that could drill into warships hull and contain a damaged K-F Field coil thus rendering the ship unable to jump – until the ship is fixed that is – thus like a greyhound running down a rabbit an enemy navy can run them down throughout the system as it is now trapped in system!
i.e. so why not weaponize a damaged K-F field coil?
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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