magicalsavior
05/02/23 01:50 PM
70.15.113.73
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Hello there. So, I made a half-shitpost Catlas AS7-KT on Reddit. It had TSM Claws that did 30dmgx2, and I was impressed with myself even though it wasn't great. But then I thought, could I make a reasonably lethal melee mech?
So I based it on the anime Aldnoah Zero. Here's the result. There's a couple compromises at play here. I kinda wanted AES, but it wouldn't mix with Claws - won't fit. I thought about TSM, but went with MASC + Supercharger instead to prevent micromanaging. Wanted 5 Walk, but there wasn't much free tonnage that way. It's pretty strong defensively, even though that's not really how to win at BT. The AMS and Blue Shield reduce damage of long range weapons (...Except Gauss) and the Ferro-Lamellor armor takes care of what's left. I wanted it to have the creeping sense of inevitability that the Nilokeras from Aldnoah has, hence the emphasis on durability. It can always headchop on a punch with 2x12dmg, which even a Kontio can't do... But the Kontio can tear across the map and managing heat for TSM isn't that difficult. C&C welcome; I do want it to be a fun mech to play against. Even if it's a bit meme-ish. The ERLL's are good at range, everything else is good close up.
Code:
Nilokeras NLK-A0
Mass: 80 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 320 XL
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 108 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
2 ER Medium Laser
2 Anti-Missile System
1 Medium Pulse Laser
2 ER Large Laser
Manufacturer: Vers Empire
Primary Factory: Orbital Facility above Mars
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 27,802,200 C-bills
Type: Nilokeras
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 80
Battle Value: 3,003
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 8
Engine 320 XL 11.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6(10)
Jumping MP: 0
Double Heat Sink 13 [26] 3
Gyro 4
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor (Ferro-Lamellor) 238 17
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 25 35
Center Torso (rear) 14
R/L Torso 17 26
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arm 13 26
R/L Leg 17 30
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Blue Shield Particle Field Damper CT/RT/LT/RA/LA/RL/LL1/1/1/1/1/1/1 - 3.0
Supercharger CT 1 - 1.5
Anti-Missile System RT 1 1 0.5
Anti-Missile System Ammo (24) RT 1 - 1.0
ER Medium Laser RT 1 5 1.0
CASE RT 0 - 0.0
Double Heat Sink RT 2 - 1.0
Claw LA 6 - 6.0
ER Large Laser LA 1 12 4.0
Anti-Missile System LT 1 1 0.5
ER Medium Laser LT 1 5 1.0
MASC LT 3 - 3.0
Medium Pulse Laser HD 1 4 2.0
Claw RA 6 - 6.0
ER Large Laser RA 1 12 4.0
Attachment (39 downloads)
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ghostrider
05/03/23 12:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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The blue shield only reduces PPC hits, nothing else. As the fluff suggests otherwise, you may not be aware of that. I don't know if they updated this in more recent rule books, I relied on the wiki here for this information.
I will ask if you know you can't punch and use arm weapons om the same turn, as the ERLLs location prevents that. Granted, I'm not sure if you wanted to use both the claws and ERLLs at the same time.
It does look like a Solaris mech design, though some are useful outside the arena. This one appears to be one that would be used for city defense, though the lack of jets would mean heavy woods isn't a good place for it.
I am going to assume this is clantech, as I am not aware if the IS finally adopted it by 3100's.
The armor effects are nice. Haven't played with AP AC rounds, but I know RNG is nasty at times. The thru armor crits are a killer at times.
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magicalsavior
05/03/23 12:09 PM
70.15.113.73
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Yep. BS PFD is PPC only. PPC's being as common as they are, it seemed like a really worthwhile upgrade - most other defenses have severe drawbacks. cERPPC's and Gauss being the two big head-choppers at long range, and still being head-choppers after -3dmg Ferro-Lam damage reduction, I wanted to reduce that chance of having my head blown off before I could even get close. 3 tons for the privilege and it only works six rounds before probably failing is slightly rough, but I'll take what I can get. It reduces 15dmg cERPPC hits to 5dmg once I add in Ferro-Lam reduction; 15dmg becomes 7 (half, rounded down BS) which becomes 5 (7 divided into 5 and 2, meaning reduced by 2 for 5 dmg, ferro-lam). Which means my real enemy is AC/20's and UAC/20's, I suppose - that goes down to 16dmg a hit, but 16 is a lot, and it happens from the range I want to be at. Use LBX-AC/20 with Cluster. Plz.
Yep, ERLL's are the sniping weapon here. While I might fire one at near point blank, they aren't going to be used at melee range - since I may be jumping or running, and the enemies probably are too, the torso and head lasers are going to do the heavy lifting while in brawl range. No need to over-commit on heat without TSM. The heat sinks are balanced for firing the ERLL's on approach, then ditching them mostly.
The things that would really improve this design are JJ's and TSM. But I kinda like the chase, so it's okay to not have JJ's.
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Karagin
05/03/23 05:29 PM
38.48.39.237
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Head shots are not that common. The board game doesn't work like the computer games.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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magicalsavior
05/04/23 10:13 AM
70.15.113.73
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True. But PPCs and missiles are, so I don't feel bad about my choices. The end result, less damage at long range, is the same. ... Maybe Stealth equipment would be more effective, but then it wouldn't be Nilokeras. I also effectively won't get plinked to death by any form of AC/2 without a LOT of unnecessary effort - I'm pretty sure I can ammo-out a Bane Prime.
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ghostrider
05/04/23 01:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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Protecting the pilot is a good thing. Might be worth making a house invention that helps protect the pilot, but yet does NOT allow the unit to survive the destruction of the head section. HBS battletech game has the cockpit protector. It just avoids pilot getting hurt from head hits, but doesn't keep the mech alive when the section is destroyed.
A point that seems over looked about being plinked to death by AC 2's. Each head hit requires a consciousness roll, with so many causing the death of the pilot, so it is more likely to die from plinking and leave the mech functional for who ever gets it.
I like the concept, but not the actual equipment of the blue shield. It is getting into the energy shields concept, that starts to ruin the game. Yes, the Steiner Arena Shielding is in the game, but wasn't available to mobile units, or even large structures like HQ's.
As Karagin says, head shots in the board game isn't that often as most people can't roll box-cars (12's) with any sort of regularity. But not having a body part blown away from a series of rolls like MGs hitting the same location, helps when your the pilot, but hurts when you are trying to remove the enemy's abilities to strike back.
But on the flip side of the armor, there is nothing in there saying vehicles can't use it, like endosteel and double sinks. SO it might be time to really mess with the developers and make vehicle lines that can survive the might mech onslaught. 
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Karagin
05/04/23 07:12 PM
38.48.39.237
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Quote:
True. But PPCs and missiles are, so I don't feel bad about my choices. The end result, less damage at long range, is the same. ... Maybe Stealth equipment would be more effective, but then it wouldn't be Nilokeras. I also effectively won't get plinked to death by any form of AC/2 without a LOT of unnecessary effort - I'm pretty sure I can ammo-out a Bane Prime.
Again, the tabletop game weapons DO NOT WORK as they do on the computer. PPCs and Missiles don't magically hit the hit head at range. You need a die of 12, aka box cars, to get that, then you need to get the cockpit to kill the pilot. A piloting roll is usually pretty easy to make since it's a single plus one for the hit to the PR skill.
Even if using the old Solairs Seven Box set rules, headshots were still not the most common thing killing mechs in that take on the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zaku
05/06/23 01:06 AM
85.255.234.200
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Looking over your design, it’s a classic custom splurge design: where you have added everything cool. 27 mil is not bad for a clan mech though 3000 BV pushes the envelope. Honestly I see a lot of customs like this and it is certainly a pretty dangerous mech: though it may be hard to field.
Also Ghost is right, relying on crits on the heads is difficult and not an ideal play style. Head critting usually needs cluster weapons like LRMs or better yet LB-X 20s, as lbs get one crit chance per number where LRMs break theirs up into units of 5: so the damage is spread less than with LRMs.
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magicalsavior
05/09/23 06:27 PM
70.15.113.73
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Quote:
Quote:
True. But PPCs and missiles are, so I don't feel bad about my choices. The end result, less damage at long range, is the same. ... Maybe Stealth equipment would be more effective, but then it wouldn't be Nilokeras. I also effectively won't get plinked to death by any form of AC/2 without a LOT of unnecessary effort - I'm pretty sure I can ammo-out a Bane Prime.
Again, the tabletop game weapons DO NOT WORK as they do on the computer. PPCs and Missiles don't magically hit the hit head at range. You need a die of 12, aka box cars, to get that, then you need to get the cockpit to kill the pilot. A piloting roll is usually pretty easy to make since it's a single plus one for the hit to the PR skill.
Even if using the old Solairs Seven Box set rules, headshots were still not the most common thing killing mechs in that take on the game.
I wasn't talking about head hits specifically at this point, just damage on the approach. I have to charge across a battlefield, and can't jump terrain, against a maybe 6/9/0 or 5/8/5 mech that won't make it easy for me - possibly faster. Can't force a PSR with 2xERLL, and the rest of the weapons are for point blank. The rest of the lance can drop supporting fire while the Nilokeras moves in, but the end result is - I'm going to take hits. Reducing a cERPPC to 5 dmg, or some LRMs to possibly 0 damage, helps make sure I arrive alive to scoop out skulls.
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magicalsavior
05/09/23 06:29 PM
70.15.113.73
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Head hits aren't that common with other weapons. But Claws act on the Punch table, so if I connect with these hands, I get 1/6 twice to try and take out the cockpit. Trying to roll a 6 with two dice is a 30.5% chance. I like those odds. ... -1 to hit tho.
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Karagin
05/09/23 07:12 PM
38.48.39.237
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First, you need to get within range to use the claws; second, not everyone will let you get into range for physical melee. Third, any arm-mounted weapons aren't going to be firing if you are using the claws unless they changed the rules again.
You are going to take hits regardless, nature of the game. Unless you learn to use terrain and speed to keep those hits down to a few and keep your opponent reacting to you, they will still be getting hits in.
I am not sure who you are use to playing against, Most folks I know won't let this kind of mech get to melee range, they will move to avoid anything close than medium.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/09/23 09:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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Initiative in the board game will change the outcome as well.
A pair of bad die rolls will really mess up even the best plans. Lose init, and they jump in, melee where you can't do anything, and 2nd bad init means they jump out without return hits.
But this is true with ALL combat, not just here.
As the rules don't mention it, it appears the standard hit location of 2 still has the thru armor crit possibilities. So averages being figured in, the more hits you have against you, the more likely you will suffer a crit.
But in the mean time, you can survive a little longer then regular armor.
This does open up a rule point that should be addressed. Is there a minimum amount of damage a hit causes?
Zero points for a successful missile strike or Light MG which only 1 point actually hits, sounds off.
I would assume even a 0 point strike with a hit location of 2 would still roll and do any critical damage, despite being no damage... And 1 point minimum should be done no matter what. But this is opinion.
And how do you handle a normal MG strike? 2 points reduced 20% means 1.6 damage. Nothing says reduced or increase to nearest whole number. So it is 1 point or 2? I guess that could be asked for all damage done.
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magicalsavior
05/10/23 09:14 AM
70.15.113.73
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The way Ferro-Lam works is, chunk of damage received from a hit is broken into 5-point chunks. Then, each chunk is reduced by 1 point, no matter what. Hit with an AC/10? 8dmg. 6 missiles from LRM? 4 damage, and 0 damage; 4 damage total. Hit with an LB-X/20? Slug, 16dmg. Cluster, 0. LMG, 0. Each one is a one-point hit, in a one-point chunk, reduced by 1. SRMs are 1 damage each. AP ammo does normal damage - if you had an AP AC/20, it would hit normally, but not check for enhanced critting. Tandem SRM's, 2dmg. Battlemech Tasers, 1dmg.
This is different from Hardened Armor, where each damage is still one damage, but each bubble is 2 points of armor. Then, Hardened Armor modifies the crit table if you roll one. Ferro-Lam ACTUALLY reduces damage. But these 0 damage hits can check for TAC crits normally; a tank with Ferro-Lam taking an LBX cluster takes 0 damage but is probably immobilized. Headshot a Ferro mech 6 times with a cTarcomped UAC/2, I check 6 times for pilot damage and my armor takes six points of damage. If you TAC crit the cockpit, I die - even if the hit is 0 damage. It can get weird.
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magicalsavior
05/10/23 09:35 AM
70.15.113.73
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Yeah, most opponents won't want to get in melee range of it. I can run 10 for a couple turns though, so staying out of range is harder than it sounds. Jumping enemies can cape me like a matador, but I can at least respond to it.
I might want to make the mech an Omni and carry Elementals into the fight for harassment purposes, as well as mixing up with my lancemates. If I can push the enemy around with an "oh ****" bubble, while still getting in chip damage with the lasers, it's - not ideal, but fine. But I do have those shoulder lasers to shoot while throwing elbows and that won't interfere at all with claw action. I made the mech 4/6(10)/0 movement in part so I could pack other weapons; if I wanted 5/8(13) base move and claws, claws would be all I could get. So it didn't seem like the smart move, compared to having at least a couple lasers; I wasn't going to put ALL the eggs into the melee basket. What I probably should be looking at is TSM or JJ's, but that seemed slightly cheese to me - having a melee bubble of death but some limitations on movement was the cute choice, you know? This'll mostly be for casual games, of course - when everyone brings the pet rock they think is neat.
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magicalsavior
05/10/23 11:06 AM
70.15.113.73
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Now, here's the real question - should I give up the lasers to go 5/8(12 with TSM+Sup)/5 or 5/8(12)/7 for extra speed and jump and go all-in on claws? Is that the better play than 4/6(10)/0 and a couple lasers?
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Karagin
05/10/23 12:20 PM
38.48.39.237
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Staying out of range is not that hard if you can read the map and know how to use the terrain to keep LOS blocked. Again this mech works against players who don't know tactics. Thus it would be great in a Solaris-style match; outside of that, it's not going to get the chance to use the claws, and while it has the cool tech, that tech can be countered with some smart use of range and terrain.
Your moving ten doesn't give you unlimited reach. It gives you a fair amount of movement, but that is going to be eating up with facing changes, going up or down hills, through woods, etc...all of which reduced that number and so let's say you have the average of 7 really. Still decent, but not fast.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/10/23 12:26 PM
45.51.181.83
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Hardened armor has another side effect. It reduces run speed by one. So that is another thing that has to be figured in when dealing with speed.
The question of changing the movement speed should be answered with testing the unit a few times. The current version may well be the best. But only a few test runs of that and the variants. Pure melee isn't good for field mechs. It would be something for mech arena's only because of the lack of range. Part of why the original Charger was considered a poor mech.
Terrain is a potential issue for the base mech. Terrain that you can't 'walk' up will prevent melee contact. Granted this is mainly an issue with hilly terrain and the enemy has jets. But then it is a bain to all walkers. The biggest issue is when it is first used. It should provide advantages until the properties become more common knowledge. Something a lot of sessions seem to overlook.
I would suggest a version or two that isn't melee dependent. This would allow you to fit in a different one, confusing others to which variant they face until weapons fire.
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