DSS
08/25/23 05:21 AM
176.25.162.219
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just a general question, as my game is set in the clan invasion era, what variations on the archer do people think is worth while, or what systems are worth adding to the archer?
i personally remove 1 tonne of armour to add case to each torso, and the rear lasers to add arterimis for each LRM20. Then change the heat sinks for double ones.
The best bit is if doing this and using endo steel internal and a extra light gyro, you can fit all this onto a 60tonne chassis, making it only slightly more expensive than the original, and cheaper than the other 3050 refits.
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Frabby
08/25/23 06:35 AM
84.185.72.4
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From a lore standpoint, you'd be hard pressed to find any such advanced technology pre-3052 outside of experimental or prototype equipment given to hero units like Sorenson's Sabres.
CASE and Endo Steel are factory level refits. Unless you happen to be with, say, thr R&D Division of Defiance Industries, there is no way to get such an upgrade.
There is a certain retroactive tech creep that keeps heaping new tech onto units pre-3050; but by and large you'd be stuck with 3025 era introtech equipment.
That said, the Archer was expressly described as one of (if not the) most frequently modified designs. So go wild.
If you're building a 60 ton chassis, you're essentially building a new, different 'Mech. Remember, tonnage is determined first and a lot of components including internal structure and engine (and by extension from the engine, the gyro) determine their mass from the 'Mech mass. You can modify an Archer to be 10 tons underweight, but by the rules it's still a 70-tonner (regarding things like physical attack damage, crashing into buildings, breaking through roofs or ice).
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Cray
08/25/23 08:49 AM
71.47.208.18
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For a quick refit: NARC-compatible ammo and, if possible, CASE and double heat sinks. NARC and i-NARC are quick ways of significantly upgrading old missile boats and you only need to fill the existing ammo bins. Alternately, semi-guided LRMs to work with all the TAG units that I like to put on the battlefield.
For newly manufactured Archers, endo-steel, DHS, and CASE II. That frees up a little more tonnage for ammo.
Frabby's got some points about cutting the tonnage and difficulty of endo-steel refits.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
08/25/23 12:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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Depending on your intended use of the archer, it might be easier to just make a lighter mech, such as a Dervish, Whitworth, Trebuchet, or something else, to fit the LRM 20s in it. Increase the weight is probably the easiest way to do so.
The Archer has the K variant, that uses the large lasers in place of the lrm 20s, which changes the entire way people would use the mech.
The few times I dealt with any changes in the Archer, was removing or moving the rear lasers. Adding a heat sink or two if the lasers are removed was one thing done. The issue my group had was it was easier to make custom units, then it was to modify existing ones. Omni technology is the way to go, if you play campaigns after the clans. Without going the route of the K version, An archer is pretty well set. Being able to swap the lrm 20s out for say an srm boat, there wasn't much you could do to 'surprise' people when they encountered them.
This is true with more then a few mechs.
Honestly, I don't remember the group modifying archers after the clan invasion, or even with SL technology beyond swapping to double sinks, and possibly the XL engines. Gyro variants were not out at that time. Endosteel swaps didn't sound logical to us, as it meant basically rebuilding the mech from the ground up. So we left that for newly built units.
Never tried it, but doing an Arrow IV launcher, like they did with the Catapult sounds like it might be worth it. Though not sure if you would want that in the front lines. Yes, a TAG would be needed, and even self tagging your target is possible.
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DSS
08/25/23 06:03 PM
176.25.162.219
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The way i looked at it, if you got two damaged mechs (specifically IS), you use one to repair the other, and you might as well build the new IS to the lighter version anyway. If you built it with a 65tonne mech you can even keep 13 tonnes of armour.
It only works out about half a mil cheaper in C-Bills than the other 3050 refits.
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DSS
08/25/23 06:13 PM
176.25.162.219
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Plus, this was one of what i designed as "home guard" mechs. Designs trying to be close to old mechs abilities with ER weapons etc.
For example. you could build a cattapult down to 50 tonnes, with 2 ERML, 2 LRM15, art and 2 tonnes reloads per LRM, 10 DSHS and 10 tonnes armour. This would be about 1.2 mil cheaper than a original 65 tonne version. So you could afford 5 of the lighter version for 4 of the heavier version.
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Karagin
08/25/23 07:53 PM
38.48.37.18
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Hey Frankenmechs happen all the time...and if your group is cool with it, then run with it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/25/23 09:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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The group I played with, didn't do a lot of limb grafting to other mechs. They were too damaged for more then scrapping or weren't damaged enough to bother with.
The Catapult example of reducing to 50 tons looks to be a custom build, verses a field downgrade. It would be easier to use a Dervish and upgrade it. Not sure if it is cheaper or not, as pencil and paper is the way I get to do things. I don't have the programs to do it on the computer.
I do think our GM was a little nicer then some, as we had a good reputation with our employers, as well as could trade with some of the larger units around. The use of Catapults, for the jump maneuvering, would allow us to trade Archer parts to the others for equipment and money. Yeah, it was a pain to get Catapult parts when needed, but it was understood when we started using them. Crusaders were another unit we used, as ranges required something with a little more close range fighting the Archers didn't have. The srm packs and mgs came in handy there.
But Karagin is correct on the issue of if your group is cool with the hybirds, they use them.
Having fun is the key to the game. If you enjoy it, then don't let anyone try to badger you into doing it a different way.
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DSS
08/26/23 08:49 AM
176.25.162.219
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The way i played it, if two archers came in for repair, one not much damage but had the engine blown out from the rear, and the other virtually turned into scrap, damage to every part of its internal structure, which would be the cheaper route, so using less time/resources/C-Bills.
Replace the engine in mech A with the engine from mech B, replace the armour then send it out. quick and cheap.
As you now need a new engine, and have to repair the chassis of mech B, would it be better to scrap for parts for others (a waste of the expensive mech IMO) or build a replacement chassis. i use the drawing board to work out cost, but a normal 70 tonne chassis with engine costs 3.8 mil C-B, a 65 tonne endosteel chassis with engine only costs 3.4 mil C-B. If you have to rebuild a mech, it makes sense to use the more advanced but 10% cheaper chassis, and you would gain a extra tonne of free mass towards the loadout. If you could accept a reduction of 1.5 tonnes in the archers loadout, you could use a 60 tonne chassis at a cost of only 3 mil C-B.
I keep using C-Bills as i feel this represents the total resources/time/manpower etc that going into building something, not just using the mass of whatever you are building. Keep thinking back to a old reference i saw that stated a hurricane fighter from WW2, built out of wood only needed 1000 man hours to build the airframe, but the spitfire needed 1500 manhours. Also, the hurricane could be built in furniture/woodworking factories but the spit needed specialised factories.
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ghostrider
08/26/23 09:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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Space on transport ships determined how much damage something could have before heading to the scrap heap. We had a few units that were slowly rebuilt over time, as we basically rebuilt units and sold them for C-bills. They tended to be the smaller units, such as the 'bugs', ie the locust, stinger and wasp. The campaign we liked the most had our unit playing mechwarrior 1 rpg, with the group coming from a scrap yard. it was a little difficult getting started, as our combat skills were not the greatest, as all characters were to have some repair skills. As mechwarrior rpg had gunnery skills combined, ie it covered mech and vehicles, we could fight from vehicles or mechs. Fighters required a different type of training, and had to be learned after a while, when we got funds to do so.
This allowed us to repair most units that others did not want to deal with. It kept some maintenance costs down a little as the pilots were required to pitch in when the could. That meant when not in a unit, or in the hospital due to injuries. The idea is that is how we got piloting skills, and some gunnery, as we tested the units to help when business was booming.
C-bills is a good way to represent the time/cost of doing work, as there is always some small expense to repairs. Gasket materials and sealants are always needed, and even power when you didn't have the dropship engines providing it. We used a strict rule that you never had a mech running while working on it. Too much chance of something going wrong, like a weak control unit, setting the unit in motion. We got upset when the GM did that to us the first time, but it made sense.
Custom units, including parts, is always an issue. There is no problem, other then build speed, to building most of a mech in a small shop. It is a bit funny that repair techs seem to be the ones that know more about building/rebuilding mechs then the factory workers do. The factory workers tend to work on one section, not the whole thing like repair techs.
Just don't expect to put out even a single mech per year in your workshop.
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