Bob_Richter
11/30/01 10:50 PM
134.121.144.40
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My heat, as it stands, is fine.
Unless you try using its two distinct weapon systems together, which would be stupid.
Your Large Laser trick takes its short range heat from a fairly manageable 12-17 to a less manageable 14-19, meanwhile dropping its firepower by two points at that range.
Firepower at long range, of course, plummets, as the Large Laser is ONLY a midrange weapon.
The Large Laser might improve things at middle ranges, if its heat wasn't such a problem.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/30/01 10:50 PM
207.43.144.58
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OK... I forgot you are the tactical expert on this...right, leave out things, but apply what works only for you...
Ok...sorry but I will take a Shadow Hawk over this everytime, and if I use this it will be to replace the Dervish which it does a better job of doing...but you won't see that for some reason....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/30/01 10:52 PM
134.121.144.40
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It will beat a Shadow Hawk. Not every time, because they are too close for that, but MOST of the time. It has superior performance.
It *is* better than the Dervish, but that was an unfortunate accident.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/30/01 10:53 PM
207.43.144.58
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But those factors CAN be used by a wise mechwarrior and by one who know not to unload with everything every turn...and not to use the oh so lovely and really stupid, Alpha Strike tactic at all.
The drop in damage gives it the chance to get in and fight it out, then fall back and use the LRMs to harrass the enemy mechs...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/30/01 10:54 PM
207.43.144.58
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Sorry I don't agree with you on it beating a Shadow Hawk, but against a Dervish in the given role the Dervish is used for yes that I can agree with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/30/01 10:55 PM
134.121.144.40
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Yet the Shadow Hawk's identical armor somehow will? Nice try.
In close combat is where it excels, having the most firepower at close range of any 'Mech in its weightclass.
(55 tons I mean. )
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/30/01 10:57 PM
134.121.144.40
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Why ever would it do that?
When it can just pound things at whatever range it happens to be at? The Large Laser does nothing more than decrease damage and complicate heat management.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/30/01 10:57 PM
207.43.144.58
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Ok if you say so...I can see this is not get anywhere and you will not even listen to us when we point it has a better role not replacing the Shadow Hawk but the Dervish...
But any way why did you post it if you didn't want us to comment or tell you how it could be used better?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/30/01 10:58 PM
134.121.144.40
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Really? How can you disagree with something so fundamentally obvious? Oh, I forget: It's in your nature.
Heh. Whatever, Karagin.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/30/01 10:59 PM
134.121.144.40
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I don't mind that. It just so happens that you're wrong, is all.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/30/01 11:00 PM
207.43.144.58
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Only for those that have no other tactic then Alpha strikes and running in close ala the MW games...
And a good pilot (and veteran player) can manage their heat effectively to get the most out of this mech with a large lasers.
And thank you, stand at range and pounding things IS what this mechs SHOULD be doing not trying to fight up close and personal.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/30/01 11:01 PM
207.43.144.58
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Obviuous would be you seeing you made a better replacement for the Dervish, but I guess you missed that in your rush to bash the Shadow Hawk.
Guess that's your nature.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/30/01 11:01 PM
134.121.144.40
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No, for EVERYONE.
Of course, you're too painfully stupid to do simple math, so I give up.
You win.
Whatever.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/30/01 11:04 PM
207.43.144.58
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Nope it's you and the math that don't get along...but I can see we are going down the to your level of name calling again...
Oh well...People who think that anyone who disagrees with them does so out of ignorance, misunderstanding, or conditioning. Intelligent people CAN receive the same information and reach very different conclusions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LordChaos
12/01/01 12:17 AM
216.161.100.68
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Superior performance on paper.
that doesn't always translate to supperior performance in the game.
outside med laser range, your mech lacks anything that can even penitrate the rare armor on many light mechs reliably. No "punch" weapon. I admit that the AC/5 isn't much of one, but it's better then an LRM 5 at it.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Bob_Richter
12/01/01 12:27 AM
134.121.144.40
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Hm. You may have a point.
If you encounter this problem (you shouldn't, but you might.) Try exchanging the LRM-5s for LRM-10s (though this will require the removal of some MLs or heat sinks, your choice), they consistently deliver a 5-point cluster.
Or you could use a Large Laser in place of two of the LRMs and the attending ammo bin. Just don't use it with the LRMs or Medium Lasers and you should be fine. You might consider dropping two MLs for HS in this mod....it would make heat management easier, and while it wouldn't replace the lost damage, you would have your "punch"
I've personally never found this to be an issue in gameplay, but to each his own.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
12/01/01 12:32 AM
24.44.238.206
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Comparison:
Manueverability: The Tiger adds two jump jets.
Armor: The Tiger sacrifices 1 point per arm and each rear torso as well as 2 per front side torso and 1 from the front center torso, for 5 extra per leg, and thus uses the same tonnage (9.5) for armor.
Heat sinks: no change.
Weapons:
Four situations (all assume average missile damage):
1. All hit.
2. 4/5 pilot, runs, +3 target MM.
3. 4/5, walks, +2 TMM
4. 3/4, still, +1 TMM.
Totals for Case 1
21-19: 12 to 3
18-10: 12 to 8
9-0: 32 to 14
Case 2:
14-13: 1 to .25
12-8: 1 to .67
7: 3.33 to 1.25
6: 2.42 to 2.56
5: 1.42 to 2.31
4: .75 to 2.14
3: 1.39 to 3.06
2: 1.39 to 2.64
1: 1.39 to 2.36
Case 3:
21-19: 1 to .25
18-15: 1 to .67
14-13: 3.33 to 1.25
12-10: 3.33 to 2.22
9-8: 3.75 to 2.89
7: 7.42 to 3.81
6: 6.39 to 6.39
5: 4.72 to 5.97
4: 3.39 to 5.64
3: 3.92 to 7
2: 3.25 to 6.14
1: 2.92 to 5.5
Case 4:
21-19: 5 to 1.25
18-15: 5 to 3.33
14-13: 8.67 to 4.25
12-10: 8.67 to 5.78
9-8: 10.75 to 9.11
7: 13.08 to 9.69
6: 13.61 to 12.86
5: 12.28 to 12.53
4: 10.61 to 12.11
3: 9.58 to 12.75
2: 7.92 to 11.78
1: 6.58 to 10.75
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/01/01 01:08 AM
134.121.144.40
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Your first comparisons seem correct, but I have trouble with the numbers on your last set.
Case 1:Heat problems prevent the 32-14 comparison at 9-0 range.
Remaining cases: Could you kindly explain how the Shadow Hawk (whose total firepower is not ever comparable to the TH's close-range arsenal, but has more trouble hitting at short range) could possibly have more damage potential in ANY case (particularly those at close range) than the TH?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/01/01 01:51 AM
134.121.144.40
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I've just been arguing with Shadow Hawk fans long enough, that I have a very good idea of the arguments they tend to use. (Personally, I think the Armstrong Corporation has them on its payroll, but keep quiet about it.)
:)
The Griffin lacks any sort of a close-range arsenal, and the stock Wolverine can't really keep up damage-wise. I think there may be a Wolverine variant that can top it, and the Dervish comes reasonably close.
It's armor, however, not firepower, that makes a 'Mech such as this, as that SLDF panel would have reminded me had I shown them a Dervish instead. (which I consider to be better than the Shadow Hawk, but nobody listens to me anyway. It isn't much of a fire-support 'Mech either, despite getting billing as "a poor man's Archer" It's really too fast and too heavy on close range weapons, while not having enough extended-range punch.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Deathshadow
12/01/01 03:08 AM
24.61.76.210
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One of my gripes about the AC/5 has always been that for a ton less I can get better range and power from an LRM-15.
I did something simular to the Wolverine, giving it an LRM-15@2 in place of the AC/5@1. Comes out fairly close to yours. The rolling more often with the -5 racks is nice, but I'd probably drop one or swap in a -15 to give you more turns of firing.
Kept my cool under lock and key,
and I never shed a tear,
another sign of my condidtion.
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NathanKell
12/01/01 12:08 PM
24.44.238.206
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It was past midnight. That's all the excuse I need. ;)
Anyway, I did ignore heat, mostly because it was all I could do that late to come up with the 4-level nested if and vlookup function for Excel. The problem with adding heat is calculating what's the "best buy" at a given range. It's by no means impossible, even for a formula/script based thing (rather than programming--I haven't reinstalled my compiler yet) like Excel. It just takes time. Hopefully today I'll add that, and post the worksheet as a general calculator. Maybe even try to do it with javascript for you folks, though my JS is beyond rusty...
As to the firepower: I just reopened the file...and noticed that in my late-night fog I had only given the Tiger ONE (!!!) medium laser.
You are quite correct as to the problems with the close-in analysis.
New post coming up.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/01/01 12:14 PM
24.44.238.206
|
Revised Weapon comparisons (the last was wrong, I only counted 1 ML for the Tiger. Ouch.)
Four situations (all assume average missile damage):
1. All hit.
2. 4/5 pilot, runs, +3 target MM. Base mod 9.
3. 4/5, walks, +2 TMM. Base mod 7.
4. 3/4, still, +1 TMM. Base mod 4.
Totals for Case 1
21-19: 12 to 3
18-10: 12 to 8
9-0: 32 to 14
Case 2:
14-13: 1 to .25
12-8: 1 to .67
7: 3.33 to 1.25
6: 3.67 to 2.56
5: 2.67 to 2.31
4: 2 to 2.14
3: 5.56 to 3.06
2: 5.56 to 2.64
1: 5.56 to 2.36
Case 3:
21-19: 1 to .25
18-15: 1 to .67
14-13: 3.33 to 1.25
12-10: 3.33 to 2.22
9-8: 5 to 2.89
7: 8.67 to 3.81
6: 10.56 to 6.39
5: 8.89 to 5.97
4: 7.56 to 5.64
3: 12.67 to 7
2: 12.00 to 6.14
1: 11.67 to 5.5
Case 4:
21-19: 5 to 1.25
18-15: 5 to 3.33
14-13: 8.67 to 4.25
12-10: 8.67 to 5.78
9-8: 17 to 9.11
7: 19.33 to 9.69
6: 24.44 to 12.86
5: 23.11 to 12.53
4: 21.44 to 12.11
3: 23.33 to 12.75
2: 21.67 to 11.78
1: 20.33 to 10.75
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/01/01 12:26 PM
24.44.238.206
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Dang, what was that phrase...celestial harmonics and all that...Pythagoras had a word for it...
Something like some numbers being Celestial Harmonics...
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/01/01 12:42 PM
24.44.238.206
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Including heat:
The Shadow's numbers are unchanged.
The Tiger, however...
(Note: calc was based on percentage, not step. (ie if you have 1 heat left, you get 1/3 an ML's damage.) The numbers *are* optimized for effectiveness as best I can, however--i.e., the weapon with better dmg/heat is used first)
The numbers now become:
Case 2 (9+rng):
14-13: 1 to .25
12-8: 1 to .67
7: 3.33 to 1.25
6: 2.56 to 2.56
5: 1.67 to 2.31
4: 1.67 to 2.14
3: 5.56 to 3.06
2: 5.56 to 2.64
1: 5.56 to 2.36
Case 3 (7+rng):
21-19: 1 to .25
18-15: 1 to .67
14-13: 3.33 to 1.25
12-10: 3.33 to 2.22
9-8: 3.89 to 2.89
7: 7.56 to 3.81
6: 6.85 to 6.39
5: 5.56 to 5.97
4: 5.56 to 5.64
3: 11.67 to 7
2: 11.67 to 6.14
1: 11.67 to 5.5
Case 4 (4+rng):
21-19: 5 to 1.25
18-15: 5 to 3.33
14-13: 8.67 to 4.25
12-10: 8.67 to 5.78
9-8: 11.44 to 9.11
7: 13.78 to 9.69
6: 14.81 to 12.86
5: 14.44 to 12.53
4: 14.44 to 12.11
3: 18.33 to 12.75
2: 18.33 to 11.78
1: 18.33 to 10.75
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
12/01/01 06:46 PM
203.134.12.8
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No, the only variants of the 3025 Shad' are the '2D' and '2K' models. One has an ER PPC, the other looses insane amounts of armour and gets SRMs and Machine Guns. The '2K' model has a PPC.
The Wolverine has two variants with Large LAsers-the 5K and the 5M. Use the 5M-it can still jump.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
12/01/01 06:48 PM
203.134.12.8
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I am one of the Shadow Hawk's most devoted fans. Just ask Scott (Greyslayer). Persoanlly, I prefer the enhanced damage of the Laser, plus it does not have ammo to worry about. As I said, heat can be a bit f a problem, but with beefed up armour, who cares about heat?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Acolyte
12/04/01 04:01 AM
142.179.28.75
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That is one of my favorite mods for the SH. The next is to do something about the SRM2 (like replacing it).
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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LordChaos
12/04/01 02:27 PM
208.203.4.100
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I don't see why people are still arguing over this mech's mission. The designers stated it's a GP mech, and so it is. That does not mean that the millitary, or other potential users (players) have to see it as a GP mech, or any other specific style. In fact, it's quite possible that it was designed as a GP mech, but ended up being used as a support vehicle, or as a brawler, or even as a scout.
Me? I see it as a support mech for both long range and short ranged support with a strong secondary role as a passible trooper mech.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Cray
12/04/01 03:04 PM
204.245.128.108
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A voice of reason. The ability of the Tiger Hawk to replace so many L1 medium mechs (including fire support units) is incredible.
The continuing argument is over the inability of Karagin to see the Tiger Hawk as anything BUT a fire support unit, and Karagin's continued view that the Shadowhawk does something better than the Tiger Hawk. Once I figure those out, I'm done and gone.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/04/01 03:27 PM
63.173.170.217
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Wrong son wrong. The arguement is over Bob not being able to take the comments and simplly add them into the fluff, and given that all that has been said was the Tiger Hawk was better at fire support then multi-role mission set Bob off is the bases of the arguement, not my stating an opinion.
So how about you figure that out and then be done with it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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