Cray
12/04/01 07:39 AM
204.245.128.108
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The Tiger Hawk is a multi-role mech because...
1) It has about equal firepower in more than one range
2) The designer said so
3) It can function equally well at long and short ranges
4) It has the maneuverability to bring either long- or short-range weapons into play, as needed
Those are the signs of a multi-role mech. Why you insist on calling it a support mech when its primary firepower does NOT rest in its LRMs eludes me.
>The idea of only having Medium Lasers as the SOLE weapon to rely on in close in fighting
Medium lasers are ideal close-in weapons, and 4 of them are very superior to the Shadowhawk's SRM 2 and single medium laser. 4 of them are, in effect, an AC/20, but with better accuracy.
>I read the blurp, and Bob is trying to replace the Shadow Hawk, all fine and good, BUT this mechs doesn't even come close to do that
I disagree heartily. The Tiger Hawk has significantly more firepower at all ranges than the Shadowhawk, and better maneuverability to boot.
>just look at it's main weapons, LRMs
Considering its LRM array does less damage than its lasers, I can't see how you can call the LRMs "the main weapons."
The problem here is you're so angry Bob you won't argue this logically. Your points are not holding water.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/04/01 07:42 AM
204.245.128.108
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>but with LRMs it's a support mech
Unfounded statement. Having LRMs is not the only criteria for being a support mech. Having a majority of the mech's firepower vested in LRMs AND a deficiency in close range firepower would make the mech a support mech, but the Tiger Hawk has more short range firepower than long range firepower. Thus, it is not (just) a support mech.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/04/01 07:49 AM
204.245.128.108
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>The Tiger Hawk has decent long range firepower,
12pts average, assuming all 4 LRM 5s hit, vs 20pts of short range firepower.
>but it doesn't have the extra punch to kill things at medium to short range to be even consider a multi-role fighter
Geez, Karagin, you're just trying to shoot yourself in the foot, aren't you? The Tiger Hawk has MORE short range firepower than it has long range firepower. The Tiger Hawk has MORE short range firepower than many medium mechs, and not a few heavy mechs. 4 medium lasers is not trivial firepower.
Your insistence on claiming this is weak is bizarre. Did Bob really anger you that much that you've thrown logic to the wind?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/04/01 12:38 PM
63.173.170.163
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Sorry not angry at Bob. The mech is a support mech, if it was a multi-role mech then it would have a bigger gun of some kind along with the mediums and the LRMs, which it don't. All the mechs in the game with LRMs as their main weapons are support mechs, just because Bob is claiming other wise doesn't change the stated fact of how these kinds of mechs are used.
Maybe if you would look at from that point of view and stop compariing it to the Shadow Hawk then maybe you would see my point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/04/01 12:40 PM
63.173.170.163
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Really? Let's all the mechs that have LRMs as their main weapons are support mechs, just look in the TRs and you will see this.
How about doing that and then tell me that the Tiger Hawk is not a support mech...4 LRMs means it's going to stay out side of 7 hexes and blast away...that buts the other 4 weapons in long range...so based on that it is a support mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/04/01 12:42 PM
63.173.170.163
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Run this mech up to use the mediums and you will be short a mech...also not all four meds are going to hit so the average damage between the two weapons sets are 12 and 15 (with 10 being more likely to happen) points...not that much difference so staying at long range give this mech a better chance to live and to do it's job which is support the attack.
Can you see that or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/04/01 01:14 PM
204.245.128.108
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>The mech is a support mech, if it was a multi-role mech then it would have a bigger gun of some kind along with the mediums and the LRMs, which it don't.
I disagree. Damage is what matters, not bore size.
>All the mechs in the game with LRMs as their main weapons are support mechs,
There is no sign the Tiger Hawk uses LRMs as its main weapons. That is your pet misconception.
>Maybe if you would look at from that point of view and stop compariing it to the Shadow Hawk then maybe you would see my point
As I don't agree with your points, I don't reach your conclusion when I cease comparing it to a Shadowhawk. In fact, I have repeatedly examined the Tiger Hawk alone in this thread and found its weapons to be more potent at short range than long range, and it have good levels of firepower at both ranges. This makes it a multi-role mech, not the fire support mech you insist it is.
>Really? Let's all the mechs that have LRMs as their main weapons are support mechs, just look in the TRs and you will see this.
This, again, is a statement based on the false premise that LRMs are the primary weapons of the Tiger Hawk. No one but you has made this claim, not even the designer. It is a particularly unsupported claim considering the bulk of the Tiger Hawk's firepower does not rest in the LRMs, unlike other support mechs.
>How about doing that and then tell me that the Tiger Hawk is not a support mech...
I see support mechs in the TRs with more firepower in their LRMs than their other weapon arrays. This does not describe the Tiger Hawk. Ergo, it ain't a support mech.
>4 LRMs means it's going to stay out side of 7 hexes and blast away
4 medium lasers means a pilot seeking to do more damage will close to 3 hexes and use those instead of the weaker LRM array. It's easier to hold the range at 1-3 hexes for a short range target number than to hold the range at 7 hexes.
>Run this mech up to use the mediums and you will be short a mech...
Against what? An Atlas? Of course. Against most other mediums? I think not. The Tiger Hawk has more short range firepower than most mediums, which should be the bulk of its opponents.
>also not all four meds are going to hit so the average damage
Everyone knows that. And since this applies equally to both weapon arrays when they are used at their preferred range, tossing around the average damage of the medium lasers based on all lasers hitting (20pts) and the average damage of all LRMs hitting (12pts) is just as valid as figuring the average damage for each weapon array based on 1-3 weapons hitting. Since it's easier to get a feel for a weapons array by assuming all of its weapons hit, I will (and have) use that same number of weapons hitting - for both LRMs and medium lasers, to be fair.
>between the two weapons sets are 12 and 15 (with 10 being more likely to happen) points...
I can't believe you just told me I can't depend on all 4 medium lasers hitting, but you calculated LRM damage as if all 4 LRMs would hit. That's called "hypocrisy."
>not that much difference so staying at long range
Sure there is. If only 2 medium lasers will hit at their short range (10pts of damage), you can expect the mechwarrior will only hit with 2 LRM launchers at their ideal range. This translates to 10 and 6, the same ratio found as if assuming all weapons hit (20 and 12).
The LRMs do less damage on average than the medium lasers.
>Can you see that or not?
Unless I accept:
1) Your unfounded idea that the weaker LRM array is the main weapons array of the Tiger Hawk and
2) Your hypocritical premises that the LRMs will average 12 points of damage while the lasers average 10-15
No, I don't see it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/04/01 01:26 PM
63.173.170.163
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Cray, maybe this will explain things to you, the Tiger Hawk has 4 LRMs, and given the current climate of weapons it has weak armor, yes it is intened for 3025, but even then it is still not armored to take the beating a multi-role mech takes, hell the shadow hawk doesn't always do well in that role mostly do to it's armor.
As has been said time and again, while the builder wants one thing the military will go another route, the Bradley was a good example of this, the right idea in giving the infantry a support vehicle but the wrong idea came up in think it is a light tank, thus you have destroyed vehicles and dead infantry all because of bad usage.
Seeing that the average damage between the two systems on the TH are almost equal the mech has a better chance of living if it stays at long range and is used in support, only coming into finish off the hurt mechs with it's 4 mediums, other wise you are risking the mech needless and that can cost you in the long run.
Frankly I could careless if Bob built it or if Slayer made it, the point still stands that this mech is better suited to fire support, just because the fluff says one thing doesn't mean that is so. For example the fluff for the Wolf Clan mech the Linebacker in the Wolf Clan Sourcebook, said it was going to replace the aging Timberwolf mechs...gee haven't seen that happen and a comparision of the two mechs will show that the LB is no where near the level of the Timber Wolf...so the fluff is there for ideas and color NOT to dicate how the mech is used, if that was the case then there would be rules for the top heavy Javelins and such via the fluff and I can't find things like in any of the rules books, it would be nice and I agree that it would give something to the mechs, but unforuntionaly it isn't there so the fluff in this case is nothing but color.
Does this help or are you still going to stand by the idea that the TH can out do the Shadow Hawk in all areas? Which by the way is one of Bob's ideas...try this, use this mech as both a fire support only mech and then use it has multi-role mech and tells what happens.
Let me know and if you can prove this is better at multi-role then fire support then I will acknoweledge it and all is fine, if it doesn't do so well or fails out right, then all you need to do is state as such on the boards and that should be that.
How about it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/04/01 01:39 PM
204.245.128.108
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>Seeing that the average damage between the two systems on the TH are almost equal the mech has a better chance of living if it stays at long range and is used in support
However, that equality in firepower means it is a multi-role mech. It CAN function just as well or better at short range as it can at long range.
A fire support mech would not have the equal/superior short range performance.
>Does this help or are you still going to stand by the idea that the TH can out do the Shadow Hawk in all areas?
Where does it fail to outperform the Shadowhawk?
1) The Tiger Hawk jumps further.
2) The Tiger Hawk and Shadowhawk have equal armor and heat sinks, and are similarly difficult to overheat
3) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 1
4) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 2
5) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 3
6) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 4
7) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 5
8) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 6
9) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 7
10) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 8
11) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 9
12) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 10
13) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 11
14) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 12
15) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 13
16) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 14
17) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 15
18) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 16
19) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 17
20) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 18
21) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 19
22) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 20
23) The Tiger Hawk does more damage on average than the Shadowhawk damage at range 21
Given everything else is pretty much equal, I do not see how the Tiger Hawk could fail to outperform the Shadowhawk. What does the Shadowhawk have that the Tiger Hawk does not?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/04/01 01:44 PM
63.173.170.163
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If you want to believe and use the Tiger Hawk as multi-role mech then that is up to you, but skilled and well versed commander would use it as fire support mech thus prevent the lose of the battle to wreckless actions.
So you use it your way, and I and those who agree with the idea that it is a support mech will use it that way.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/04/01 01:55 PM
63.173.170.163
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And the Hunchback carries an AC20 which we don't see on multi-role mechs as you claim the Tiger Hawk is...so your arguement is not treading water either.
Like I told Cray, you use it your way, and the rest of us will use it ours, you want to use it as jack of all trades, fine have fun with the repair bill.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/04/01 02:02 PM
204.245.128.108
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>So you use it your way,
As a multi-role mech, that would include your way: fire support. It's pretty good at that, better than the Shadowhawk.
>and I and those who agree with the idea that it is a support mech will use it that way
Who are "those"? I haven't seen anyone agree with you that the Tiger Hawk is solely a support mech except (reading the Shadowhawk replacement thread) LordChaos.
What I am particularly baffled by is:
1) Why you refuse to acknowledge that is functions well at short range, at least for a medium mech
2) Why you think the Shadowhawk is better at any range, particularly in light of NathanKell's outstanding damage comparison in the Shadowhawk Replacement thread
3) Why you don't think it can function well in more than just the fire support role
Sure, the Tiger Hawk is well set up to be a fire support mech. It is also well arranged (as well as most mediums) to fight at short range. You saw how it outperformed the Shadowhawk at short range in NathanKell's comparison.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/04/01 02:06 PM
63.173.170.163
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Like I said Cray, use it your way, mine is to use it in ONE role and that is fire support only, there are better mechs to use as multi-role fighters, like the Brawler I just posted or even a Shadow Hawk, then the Tiger Hawk.
So on that note let's move on...better things to go over and talk about then the Tiger Hawk.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/04/01 02:15 PM
204.245.128.108
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>Like I told Cray, you use it your way, and the rest of us will use it ours, you want to use it as jack of all trades,
Would you supply your operating definition of "multi-role" for me? I keep finding "fire support" under that definition.
The wonder of the Tiger Hawk is that it can replace so many models. It can replace the Whitworth, the Shadowhawk, the Wolverine, the Griffin, the Enforcer, the Vindicator, the Blackjack, the Wyvern, the Centurion, the Crab, the Enforcer, and the Trebuchet. The Tiger Hawk out guns most of them at some or all ranges and has equal or superior maneuverability to all of them.
The ability to take the Tiger Hawk and put it in the role of so many mechs without a drop in performance should tell you it is not only truly "multi role," but it is a godsend for logistics. All those mechs you can replace with one, just one design!
Yes, you can replace fire support mechs with the Tiger Hawk. But you can also replace short range brawlers like the Crab, Enforcer, and Centurion with it, as well as jack-of-all-trades like the Wolverine and Shadowhawk, and there won't be any drop in performance. Heck, there'll be gains in many cases - the TigerHawk outguns most of those short-range and multi-role mechs at some or all ranges.
>fine have fun with the repair bill
Since it'll be lower than other multi-role mechs' repair bills (like the Wolverine and Shadowhawk) simply because the Tiger Hawk can kill its enemies faster - more firepower, you know, I won't mind the repair bill at all.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/04/01 02:19 PM
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Why is the Shadowhawk a better multi-role mech? It has less firepower at every range. It can't do anything as well as the Tiger Hawk.
>So on that note let's move on...
Uh-uh. You haven't explained a thing, particularly this obsession with an inferior unit like the Shadowhawk. Anything the Shadowhawk does, the Tiger Hawk does better. Why on God's green Earth would a commander ever, ever want to use an inferior unit?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/04/01 02:20 PM
63.173.170.163
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Multi-role:
Front line mech
Support Mech
City Fighter
Scout
And a host of other areas and usages, now I don't see the Tiger Hawk living up to all of those so it's not a true multi-role mech, it has a place as a support mech and at second best a harasser that hits and runs off...
As I said before and will say again there are better mechs that fullfill the role of multiple usage better and easier then the Tiger Hawk.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/04/01 02:21 PM
63.173.170.163
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The Shadow Hawk can and does out preform the Tiger Hawk, and yes I have explained things.
So again on that note...let's move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/04/01 07:11 PM
12.78.130.236
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Tigerhawk's Multi-role test:
Front line mech: 9.5 tons armor, 5/8 movement, 4 medium lasers, as much firepower and endurance as any medium front line mech short of the Kinataro.
Support Mech: 20 LRM tubes, 5/8 movement, a little thin on the ammo bins, still credible.
City Fighter: 5/8/5, 4 medium lasers, 9.5 tons of armor, credible
Scout: 5/8/5, good for a 3025 scout
The Tiger Hawk performs well in all 4 roles you proposed, as well as any multi-role medium book mech and better than many medium specialists for those roles.
>As I said before and will say again there are better mechs that fullfill the role of multiple usage better and easier then the Tiger Hawk
You would have me believe the Shadowhawk is a better multi-role mech, meaning it performs in those 4 roles better than the Tiger Hawk:
Front line mech: Same armor as the Tiger Hawk, lower maneuverability, lower firepower at all ranges
Support Mech: About half the long range firepower of the Tiger Hawk, lower maneuverability
City Fighter: Same armor, lower maneuverability, less than half the short range firepower of the Tiger Hawk
Scout: Lower manueverability than the Tiger Hawk
How am I supposed to believe the Shadowhawk performs better as a multi-role mech than the Tiger Hawk when the Shadowhawk does every individual role worse than the Shadowhawk?
Please, feel free to compare the Shadowhawk and Tiger Hawk armor point by armor point, damage point by damage point, heat point for heat point, and MP by MP. Let's get down to the math of this.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
12/04/01 08:42 PM
134.121.16.141
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Problem:
Any number of 'Mechs employ LRMs as something other than their primary weapon. Is an Assassin a Fire-support 'Mech?
Is a Zeus?
How about a Thunderbolt?
The Tiger Hawk's LRM system is NOT its primary armament.
Feel free not to use it, or to use it in the inappropriate role you have chosen for it (though I really recommend the Artemis), but quit trying to tell me what it is. I *KNOW* what it is. In this case, I've designed the Bradley, and you've decided it's a light tank.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/04/01 08:43 PM
134.121.16.141
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And what's going to dish out enough damage to kill this thing?
Not a Shadow Hawk, that's for sure. Actually, as it turns out, this thing is the best 'Mech at its weight to do precisely that.
Also, its superior jump mobility allows it to keep target numbers difficult, even in close.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/04/01 08:44 PM
134.121.16.141
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The Hunchback I'm talking about carries eight Medium Lasers as its primary weapons. Nasty, nasty beast.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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