NathanKell
12/04/01 04:47 PM
24.44.238.206
|
You want a support mech? Replace weapons, mucho armor, and a few JJs with 2 LRM-15s and more ammo.
But wait--that's a Trebuchet.
One question--is your argument that it is not a multirole mech based on
1. Comparisons with other TR3025 mechs or
2. Comparisons with custom [presumably yours] 3025 mechs.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
12/04/01 06:11 PM
203.56.233.124
|
Why? Just loead Infernos. Much more fun :)
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Cray
12/04/01 07:10 PM
12.78.130.236
|
Once again: multi-role includes fire support. Furthermore, the Tiger Hawk performs better at short range than long. That is not the sign of a support-only mech.
Since when do fire support mechs deal more damage with their short range weapons than long range weapons?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Bob_Richter
12/04/01 08:34 PM
134.121.16.141
|
Actually, it's the Artemis, posted elsewhere on the board...and noted as a Proto-Apollo.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Cray
12/06/01 07:21 AM
204.245.128.108
|
I wanted to check the firepower of the Tiger Hawk using my calculation method. This way, if my math is messed up, it's messed up equally for the Brawler, too.
Assumptions:
1) The Tiger Hawk will not fire its LRM 5 at 1-5 hexes range
2) The Tiger Hawk will not fire its Medium lasers at 6 or more hexes
4) The LRM 5 inflicts 3.16667pts of damage, based on the same sort of calculation as the SRM 2 I used on the Brawler
5) Total target modifiers are +3, except for the LRM 5, which suffers +4 at 6 hexes
6) Probability of hitting target number 7 is 58.33%, TN 8 is 41.67%, TN 9 is 27.78%, TN 10 is 16.67%, TN 11 is 8.333%, and TN 12 is 2.78%.
7) Average damage is equal to probability of hitting a target multiplied by the damage the weapon does. This is the average damage the weapon will inflict over hundreds of firings at the given target number.
*At range 1, 2, and 3, overall average damage: 11.666pts of damage
TN for medium lasers: 7, average damage = 5 x .5833 x 4 = 2.9165pts of damage
*At range 4 and 5, overall average damage: 5.5552pts of damage
TN for medium lasers: 9, average damage = 5 x .2777 x 4 = 5.5552pts of damage
*At range 6, overall average damage: 5.28pts of damage
TN for LRM 5s: 8, average damage = 3.166667 x .4167 x 4 = 5.28
*At range 7, overall average damage: 7.4pts of damage
TN for LRM 5s: 7, average damage = 3.166667 x .5833 x 4 = 7.4
*At range 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 overall average damage: 3.52pts of damage
TN for LRM 5s: 9, average damage = 3.166667 x .2777 x 4 = 3.52
*At range 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21, overall average damage: 1.056pts of damage
TN for LRM 5s: 11, average damage = 3.166667 x .08333 x4 = 1.056
Summarized, the average damage a Tiger Hawk will deal out facing target modifiers of +3:
1: 11.666
2: 11.666
3: 11.666
4: 5.5552
5: 5.5552
6: 5.28
7: 7.4
8: 3.52
9: 3.52
10: 3.52
11: 3.52
12: 3.52
13: 3.52
14: 3.52
15: 1.056
16: 1.056
17: 1.056
18: 1.056
19: 1.056
20: 1.056
21: 1.056
Comment: The Tiger Hawk should probably fire its medium lasers at 6 hexes range rather than its LRMs. Despite being more accurate, the lower damage per LRM launcher allows medium lasers to do more damage.
Side by side, the Brawler (left) and Tiger Hawk (right):
1: 9.24 / 11.666
2: 9.24 / 11.666
3: 9.24 / 11.666
4: 6.846 / 5.5552**
5: 5.718 / 5.5552**
6: 4.07 / 5.28
7: 3.1 / 7.4
8: 3.1 / 3.52
9: 3.1 / 3.52
10: 3.1 / 3.52
11: 1.55 / 3.52
12: 1.55 / 3.52
13: 1.55 / 3.52
14: 1.55 / 3.52
15: 1.14 / 1.056**
16: .264 / 1.056
17: .264 / 1.056
18: .264 / 1.056
19: .264 / 1.056
20: .264 / 1.056
21: .264 / 1.056
**Indicates ranges where the Brawler delivers more damage on average than the Tiger Hawk.
Not seen in the above numbers: The Brawler delivers some of its damage in 8pt packets (large laser) out to 15 hexes, while the Tiger Hawk never does more than 5 per hit. This is a non-trivial point for two mechs with similar armor and firepower.
Worth pointing out: While the Tiger Hawk delivers more damage at many ranges, a simple qualitative "more damage" doesn't tell the full story. In most cases, "more damage" is just 1-2 points more.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
12/06/01 02:57 PM
63.173.170.39
|
The minimum on LRMs is 6 hexes so should the mech be firing the LRMs at 6 hexes or should it be 1-6 it will not fire them, since the rules say you still get the plenity of being in the minimum range at six hexes when you fire....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
12/06/01 03:43 PM
63.173.170.131
|
One question, how often do you play the game standard pilots? That is gunnery 4 piloting 5?
If do uses these then the +1 and such for minimums hurts you more so then if you are using better pilots.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
12/06/01 06:03 PM
63.173.170.121
|
Then you should understand that such a pilot is not going to even try to fire the LRMs at the max of the minimum range since the odds are against them...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
12/06/01 06:27 PM
63.173.170.121
|
You are forgetting that when you close in most smart pilots are going make sure that +1 for minimum is what prevents you from firing, I know I do that folks and it is done to me...
And you would be suprised at how many experienced players forget about the minimums on IS LRMs...talk about the look of shock and suprise on someone's face when it's pointed out...gotta love it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
12/06/01 06:42 PM
63.173.170.121
|
When the minimums come into play it means the mechs have moved close enough to each other that one has a higher to hit number do to running or jumping and then there is terrain, I don't know about you, but I keep as much of that between me and the other side as I can...
So the above is a few ways that even the +1 at the max minimum can hurt you and don't forget you are moving too so that is added in...and once all is done it may show that you can still have a chance but the odds don't favor it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
12/06/01 07:02 PM
63.173.170.121
|
I wouldn't take the shot, but that is me. I would wait tell he either fell back or I won inataive and then move so as to get a better shot without the addtional +1 of the minimum range involved.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
12/06/01 09:03 PM
12.78.180.36
|
As you can see from the write-up (I put in all the math), at 6 hexes, the target number for LRMs is better than medium lasers.
You can do that math yourself: base target number for medium lasers is 8 at range 6 while base target number for LRMs is 7 at range 6.
As a matter of fact, I DID comment on whether or not LRMs should be fired at 6 hexes (see the end of my post you replied to), at least with regards to the Tiger Hawk specifically. It's not a matter of minimum range penalties that make LRMs less favorable.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
12/06/01 09:09 PM
12.78.180.36
|
>Why wouldn't you fire LRMs at 6 hex range?
Because, *for the Tiger Hawk specifically*, the lower damage of LRM 5s offsets the gains of better accuracy at range 6. I commented on this in my analysis of the Tiger Hawk's hex-by-hex firepower.
>If do uses these [average pilots] then the +1 and such for minimums hurts you more so then if you are using better pilots
Yes...but that's also a non sequitor. Simply using average pilots will always hurt you compared to using better pilots.
Take a moment to compare the accuracy of LRMs and medium lasers at range 6. LRMs will always be better, all else being equal.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Acolyte
12/07/01 06:03 AM
142.179.28.75
|
In that exact situation, I'd fire just enough energy weapons (Med Lasers in this case) so as not to build heat. Nothing lost if I miss, and some gain if any hit. And I've been in that situation soooooo many times it's not funny. 
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|
Acolyte
12/07/01 06:12 AM
142.179.28.75
|
As a variant for close range nastyness:
Drop the LRM's, add 2 Large Lasers.
Or:
Drop the LRM's, add 1 Large Laser and 5 heat sinks.
Against Medium Lasers and the like, the range of the Large Lasers allows you to be at short range when they are at medium, and to be at medium range when they are out of range. The speed of this 'Mech can be used to full advantage to make sure of this.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|
Bob_Richter
12/07/01 09:01 PM
134.121.144.40
|
Um. As much as I'd like to be able to fire 2 Lg Lasers with only 12 heat sinks....
Yeah.
My own suggested variant is to drop 2 LRMs and ammo for 1 Lg Laser....
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
NathanKell
12/07/01 09:12 PM
24.44.238.206
|
For...the LC-6N Lion Cub ;)
And the heat balances perfectly.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Acolyte
12/09/01 01:06 AM
142.179.16.68
|
You can go hot..... It is 3025 after all.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|