Karagin
04/04/02 03:03 PM
63.173.170.227
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Okay what will happen when Rangar becomes the Khan of the Ghost Bears?
Will that change anything? Will it cause the FRR to merge with the GBD? Will the other powers of the Inner Sphere except it? What of the Clans? Will they understand and except the merger or will they view it as the GBs going rouge? Will we see the other Clans attack the Bears or not?
How will the Star League handle the unifaction of the GBs and the FRR?
Better still how will the WoB handle this seeing how the Clans don't need them to run the HPGs...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
04/08/02 06:19 PM
63.173.170.35
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28 posters look at this and have nothing to say??? Wow that has to be a first around here...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
04/09/02 12:24 AM
194.251.240.107
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Apparently no one cares. Neither do I.
Sorry, I couldn`t resist 
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/09/02 12:51 AM
209.202.47.12
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I might have an opinion, but I haven't read the books, so I know nutTING!!! 
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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SuperCharger
04/09/02 01:59 AM
12.83.77.61
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In reply to:
28 posters look at this and have nothing to say??? Wow that has to be a first around here...
Actually, I was waiting until I finished reading Storms of Fate, which I just picked up this weekend. (Tip for Borders customers: If you're looking for a particular book, make sure you check behind the books on the shelves. Some Borders shelves have "hidden" areas behind books. All of the copies of Storms of Fate were hidden by the older BT books at my local Borders. I have no idea how they actually sell books by hiding them from customers...)
Getting back on topic, Storms of Fate mentions Ragnar not at all. In fact, I did learn the new FRR Elected Prince-regent is Chris Mansdotter. Given what has been mentioned earlier on this board, I assume he is "Prince-regent" because Ragnar was elected, but since he is with the Ghost Bears, Mandotter rules in his place. This is my asumption, however; it's never explained in the book.
On the subject of the book, Storms of Fate is a real let-down, IMHO. Loren Coleman often mispells the names of people and places, it was short on character details that to my knowledge have never been discussed in the novels, and, especially for a spine novel, its plot was rough and relatively thin.
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Cray
04/09/02 06:27 AM
204.245.128.3
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I'm rather unhappy with the whole outcome of the whole Ghost Bear/FRR thing; that Ragnar is a GB pawn doesn't really alter the root problems that bother me, so I haven't formed an opinion about Ragnar beyond, "No, sir, I don't like it." Which isn't what you asked for, and since you tend to blow your lid when people give answers to questions you didn't ask, I did not comment. I don't know why other posters remained quiet.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/09/02 01:18 PM
63.173.170.3
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Actually on these kinds of question I normally STAY OUT of the discussion for the most part...so what ever is said is there for the rest to comment on...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Grizzly
04/09/02 01:31 PM
12.108.119.227
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Actually I am missing Storms of Fate and Imminent Crisis so I don't want to make a reply and look like I don't know anything. Once I have read them, then I can make an opinion.
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
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Cray
04/09/02 01:39 PM
204.245.128.3
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Fair enough, but you were just accusing me of jumping into your threads to ruin them or not taking them as they were meant to be.
Well, my only opinion I felt strongly enough to post about on the FRR/GB matter was not in response to your question. Did you want to hear that I think the GB domination of the FRR is bogus and should not last more than a few years? It had nothing to do with your question, so I stayed quiet.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (04/09/02 01:51 PM)
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Karagin
04/09/02 02:02 PM
63.173.170.3
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Actually that has something to do with the topic so post away...heck I have posted this same question on four other boards, and so far folks have debated the idea of Rangar not having a blood name as cause for him to never get past loremaster to the how Theo's son Minuor (I think I have that spelled right) has some ties to an old Star League noble family and this can claim a bloodname if there is one for that family...then I have seen the topic go the other route and have folks talk about how the other Clans would see such a move as akin the Wolverines and their actions, at least the home clans might.
So your opinion is still on topic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/09/02 02:05 PM
204.245.128.3
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Consider my opinion to be a generic rant about how the Clans don't have the manpower to run even a small Inner Sphere nation like the FRR. I heartily endorse the FRR government's rejection of the vote for Ragnar.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/09/02 04:16 PM
63.173.170.166
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Okay you lost me here...the GB brought their entire Clan into their IS holdings. They should have more then enough manpower to run their holdings well and defend it as well. Adding in the FRR would give them even more on the side of civilian leadership and burearatic setting to ensure that the transations is smooth as can be...using your idea, one would think that West Germany would not have had the manpower to abosrbe East Germany and effectively control it's borders etc...but so far they are doing it and while suffering some set backs things aren't falling apart.
Could you please give some more detail on this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/09/02 05:29 PM
12.91.127.132
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>Okay you lost me here...the GB brought their entire Clan into their IS holdings
The entire Clan population is a bit over 1.1 billion, of which the GB's are a fraction of. The GBs have c10000-20000 warriors, generously. The Clans have a total of 110,000 warriors. Granting the GBs 20000 is quite generous.
The Inner Sphere population, heck, the Combine alone has a population in the trillions. The FRR must have a population in the multiple tens of billions (including the GB-occupied section), possibly over a hundred billion. How many planets did the FRR have before the Clan invasion?
>Okay you lost me here...the GB brought their entire Clan into their IS holdings
My gripe begins before the GB move. Before the occupied FRR warmed up to the GBs, the GBs had maybe, generously, 20,000 warriors to occupy their FRR conquests. This is such a minute number of soldiers to occupy billions of people as to be laughable - look at the forces India and Pakistan are fielding in Kashmir, or the UN and new Afghan government are fielding in Afghanistan. There's no need for the FRR to capitulate and cooperate to so few warriors. The GBs simply cannot put enough guns at enough FRR administrators' and police officers' heads to make them cooperate - even if the GBs brought in their paltry millions of citizens from the Clan homeworlds. The GBs are completely and totally a drop in the FRR bucket.
I don't think your East/West Germany reunion example works - it was too completely voluntary compared to the Clan invasion. Further, the East German neighbors were not spoiling to invade if West German troops did not guard the border. How about the German occupation of France in WWII?
How many divisions did Germany use to occupy France and force French cooperation in WWII? The total number of Germans in France outnumbered the GB touman, while the French population was vastly smaller than the FRR's.
It's all in the numbers. The GBs - all of them - are outnumbered on the order of 1000:1 or more by the FRR, and their warriors outnumbered by the people they occupy around 1 million to 1. Expecting the GBs to occupy and pacify the FRR is like expecting 40 Germans to have overrun and occupy France in WWII. Even with BT warships, mechs, and nukes, 40 Germans couldn't occupy WWII France. They'd all be dead in a few months.
*IF* the GBs had presented a decently sized military force, on the order of millions of warriors and sent in millions of administrators, then occupied FRR capitulation and cooperation is understandable, just as French cooperation with Germany in WWII was understandable. The Germans put enough troops into France to largely monitor the major government buildings and administrators, and conduct patrols of their own. If the GBs had put a proportionally sized military force into the FRR, I wouldn't bat an eye. But they didn't even put enough troops into the FRR to even monitor every city hall, let alone major factories, military bases, and the cities themselves, not to a degree the FRR could be expected to capitulate to them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
04/09/02 07:19 PM
24.44.238.62
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Hear, hear.
However, this remains true only as long as the people truly care.
If in fact (which seems to be the only explanation of the IS's population's docility in general) only a minute fraction of the population (the nobles and mechwarriors, say) really gives a hoot who's governing (through them) then it's perfectly possible to supplant this {rather vocal} bit of the population with a few dozens of thousands of clan administrators and warriors.
This would explain both
1. the vocal protests in Rasalhague against the Com Gaurds (as the ones protesting would be the ones whose power was supplanted and had the means to protest) and
2. the fact that such protests don't do much (witness the previous, oh, 400-700 years of the not-Free Rasalhague not-Republic).
This, of course, is why the FWL has such a problem. Its population is not only more vocal by nature but has the means to do so, and, more important, the egalitarian environment in which people are not just encouraged but assumed to be vocal.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
04/09/02 07:40 PM
12.91.139.96
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>However, this remains true only as long as the people truly care.
The FRR's population is all about caring. They overthrew early GB occupation forces on several planets until the GBs threatened planetary extermination.
The FRR also overthrew the Combine's "ronin" forces.
The FRR has a long history of popular (not noble/mechwarrior) uprisings against the Combine.
Now, if the Clan invasion had gone through the middle of the Lyran Commonwealth, I'd be less dubious about this. But they did not - they went through the feisty FRR.
Hence I find the easy capitulation of the FRR to a tiny group of foreign invaders extremely questionable. Once the capitulation is accepted, the rest is rather more understandable.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Kottos
04/12/02 10:51 PM
146.186.20.72
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>How many divisions did Germany use to occupy France and force French cooperation in WWII? The total number of Germans in France outnumbered the GB touman, while the French population was vastly smaller than the FRR's. <
In occupied France, the technological disparity between the soldier and the guerilla was not nearly what it is in occupied Free Rasalhague. As I recall, the Ghost Bears left no military equipment in the hands of the conquerored people except that of the police departments. Say the guerillas want to ambush a 2 man patrol walking a perimiter. In Vichy France, 2 men with any sort of guns could do it. If they were real careful, 2 men with knives would be sufficient. To successfully ambush a pair of armored elemantals would require a dozen heavy recoiless rifles, or similar heavy weapons. Not only are many more men required (the recommended crew for a heavy recoiless rifle is 3), but such heavy equipment was specifically denied the people. Even if one can get the men and equipment, try sneaking up on 2 troopers with integral infared/lowlight/magres capability. Involve any battlemech and I'd say the Ghost Bear garrison bases are pretty safe from partisans.
With that kind of heavy technological edge, the clanners can rule through terror. Let the chief planetary official know that he will be personally held responsible for any uncivil behavior. Let his fear of reprisal cause him to act in your favor. Let lesser officials' fear of the governor cause them to instill order. It will trickle down. Let the governor know and believe that failure to keep the peace will result in death for him and others, as he will be executed by pattern bombing. Let the planetary population know that large scale civil disturbance will be handled via orbital bombardment. On the other hand, if everyone behaves, the planet gets near total autonomy. With carrots and sticks that big, it can work.
>Expecting the GBs to occupy and pacify the FRR is like expecting 40 Germans to have overrun and occupy France in WWII. Even with BT warships, mechs, and nukes, 40 Germans couldn't occupy WWII France. They'd all be dead in a few months. <
Actually, given 1 star elementals, 1 star mechs, and 1 star aerofighters (40 warriors total), full support personnel, and regular resupply, I believe an unarmed France could be successfully occupied. Especially considering that the clanners don't desire the kind of pervasive and ideological control that the nazis' wanted.
Also, where do you get your population figures? I've not seen any official numbers, though my readings are less than extensive.
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Nightmare
04/13/02 05:28 AM
194.251.240.107
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If weapons won`t work, you have to use other means.
Poison. Industrial "accidents". Suicide bombers.
Remotely detonated explosives. Biological warfare.
Poison is self-explanatory. Try to poison their water supply,
food, equipment. Try poisonous gas, it will kill the support staff at least.
Industrial accidents are just that. Drop a truckload of steel on
the GBs inspecting a building site. Open the flood gates when
they inspect the local water power plant. Ram the garrison with a cement dropship
Suicide bombers are self-explanatory. If they damage the clanner equipment or kill a few techs, it`s enough.
Remotely detonated explosives are used against patrols when you know a likely route and can trap it in advance.
Mechs may be invincible, but half a mountain should crush
one anyway. Elementals certainly can`t take the full blast
of a few tons of ordinary civilian explosives. Are they using
any mountain tunnels? Wreck it with as many clanners as possible inside it. Railroads? Blow up the bridges, preferably
with a clan train on top.
Biological warfare. The clanners might not be immunized
to some of the nicer diseases of the IS, simply because
the SLDF didn`t manage to save samples of them when
they left. Try them all out, just in case. How many scientists
can they have with the right specialty to create a defense?
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Cray
04/13/02 09:52 AM
204.245.128.3
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>In occupied France, the technological disparity between the soldier and the guerilla was not nearly what it is in occupied Free Rasalhague
Irrelevant. 10,000 warriors even with centuries of technological advantages still cannot be in enough places at once to watch and occupy tens or hundreds of billions of people.
You can give all of the GB warriors Daishis and Elementals, but they still won't be adequate to patrol a few large cities on one province. They simply cannot monitor the doings and mischief being carried out elsewhere on the planet. They do not have the manpower.
>To successfully ambush a pair of armored elemantals would require a dozen heavy recoiless rifles, or similar heavy weapons
The problem is, they are just TWO elementals, and they only have a few thousand friends. Those TWO elementals cannot adequately patrol a single train station or factory, let alone a city. They cannot watch for the guerilla couriers walking around the other side of a train station, because there's so few of them. They cannot monitor all the hundreds and thousands of factories that supply components to major military factories, so any amount of military supplies could go astray, and the Clans wouldn't have the manpower to monitor all the company accountants and local government officials to make sure this wasn't happening. Those two elementals and few dozen friends could not adequately patrol a city to learn if hundreds of guerilla soldiers were massing somewhere in a city, nor monitor the police closely enough to know if the police were helping the Clans or covering the guerillas' tracks. Those few Clan warriors could not dig through every building in a city to make sure no one was filling a diesel tanker with 40 tons of fertilizer and diesel to pay a visit to the nearest Clan base. Those few Clan warriors could not guard all their off-duty fellow Clan warriors and civilians mingling with the locals.
Those few Clan warriors don't sleep, eat, and live in their battle armor or mechs or fighters - they get out, they stroll around their base, they visit the local pubs, and (given how poorly suited a Clan mechwarrior in a MadCat is for monitoring a city's mayor and hundreds of other head officials) they present their vulnerable person to give orders.
A full cluster of 75 (?) elemental points...375 elementals, yes?...is a tiny fraction of the size of a major city's police department. I think the NYPD has over 10,000 officers. It doesn't matter that the Clan soldiers are invulnerable - they simply don't have the manpower to make sure a capture population is obeying them, or even adequately protect all their own personnel.
Sure, involve all the GB mechs and elementals you want. A sniper with a laser rifle outranges any mech weapon, and the GB officer the sniper is aiming at is strolling out of his barracks wearing a beret, not 14 tons of ferrofibrous armor. A visiting "food truck" that pulls up to a GB base cafeteria with "supplies" (2 tons of AMFO and extra incindiaries hidden under the fresh food the GB troops ordered) is going to disable a lot of GB battle armors and mechs simply by killing the vulnerable warriors. A Kodiak might be invulnerable to small satchel charges, but the off-duty GB warriors in the local pub its guarding are rather more vulnerable. The Kodiak's UAC/20 and massive armor don't do a dang thing for those offduty soldiers when the Kodiak's bored mechwarrior waves in a local prostitute much favored by the GB warriors, only to discover her oversized, sequined purse concealed the satchel charge. The cluster of GB warriors assigned to a planet will be real proud they shut down the FRR mech factory and guard it - but they won't have the manpower to watch the hundreds of subcontractors scattered across the planet funneling parts to new assembly points.
Being invulnerable to guerillas with pitchforks and molotov cocktails is great for conquering a planet. It doesn't have much to do with occupying, holding, and administering a planet.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
04/14/02 08:30 AM
12.78.119.34
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>But I think you're missing the point. Yes, groundpounders are vulnerable to partisans, but as someone said earlier, orbital bombardment can be a major fear factor, as you can't strike back against a million tonnes or so of WarShip.
Please, please, tell me you think the GBs would use orbital bombardment. Lots of it. They threatened to do so once. Do you think they would do so if their pitiful numbers of occupation troops suffered heavy losses?
And, of course, all those warships are about as useful for holding ground as an air force (i.e. not at all). You need troops on the ground to rule, or will the warships kill millions of FRR folks for not paying their taxes, too?
>who said about the big carrot and stick idea, and the fact is if they don't interfere in your life
With the GB's numbers, they wouldn't LIVE long enough to offer any carrots big enough to compensate for the outrage of invasion and threatened genocide.
Do you understand the "GB warriors are outnumbered by literally a million to one in the FRR" part? The GB's do not have the man power to be anything more than tinpot dictators shouting orders from a conquered capital city while the rest of the FRR population ignores them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightmare
04/14/02 12:20 PM
194.251.240.107
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BTW, exactly how large a percentage of their full strength
did they lose in those revolts, overthrowing the garrisons?
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Cray
04/14/02 01:35 PM
12.91.139.179
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I don't know. The GBs lost whatever their garrisons were on the FRR planets taken in the first wave or two, and had to backtrack and threaten genocide.
Another implausibility, IMO. If the FRR folks switched to passive resistance - ignore the few dozen occupation troops - the GBs couldn't do anything. The GBs don't have the manpower to make a single planet of a few billion OBEY them, just kill them with orbital bombardment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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