Cray
01/23/03 08:20 AM
147.160.125.185
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Mines tend to conjure images of a floating ball with spikes sticking out of it, waiting for some passing ship to bump into it and get blowed all to heck. However, not all mines are so World War One simple. For example, the Mk60 CAPTOR mine [1] of the USN is basically a torpedo held in a disposable launcher that provides extended battery life. The mine waits, lurks, sees an enemy submarine and kills, Kills, KILLS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!!
Ahem.
Anyway, I noticed that capital missiles were exceedingly cheap (I mean, a 50-ton Killer Whale is, what, 180,000 C-bills? 50 tons of LRMs would be 1.5 million C-bills.) Clearly, they needed to be left in orbit and wait for orders to destroy targets their owners take a severe disliking to. Individual capital missiles may not compare well to other capital weapons, but a cluster of them could ruin a fighter squadron's day or make invading dropships profoundly unhappy. Plus, if deployed as mines, you don't need those fancy, expensive capital missile launchers or the expensive warships and modified dropships to carry them.
The problem with orbital mines is that if they are to remain inexpensive, they'll have to avoid the expensive engines that spacestations and jumpships use for stationkeeping, or the ones smallcraft and larger vessels use for strategic movement. This makes mines useless at the normal zenith and nadir jump points, which are stationary over the poles of the local star (and thus stellar gravity will suck the mines straight down into the star. Yes, gravity is a much more powerful effect at the jump points than the solar wind.)
So, orbital mines are just that: orbital. They orbit a planet and wait for a designated target to show up, then kill it. They can be placed a Lagrange (pirate) points near a planet, too, but not the zenith/nadir points.
RULES
1) An Orbital Mine consists of a Barracuda, White Shark, or Killer Whale attached to a 10-ton support module. They cost 1,000,000 C-bills plus the missile; the support module is reusable. (The support module mostly consists of a fighter cockpit-like targeting and tracking system, a control computer, and an orbital maneuvering system/power plant with negligible thrust.)
2) Attacks are made at gunnery 6. Separate rolls for each mine, of course.
code:
(dropping into plain text to retain formatting)
.
3) Who to kill, who to kill...
3a) 31st Century computers are pretty clever (and I
typed that with a straight face). Just as mech computers
effortlessly ID and classify other units on the battlefield,
so too do mine targeting computer ID units in space. The
mines can thus be very selective with their targets even
when on their own.
3b) If they're to be left alone, the mines do need some
instructions. The user must designate (before battle) if
the mines will engage:
*Friendly, hostile, and/or unknown targets
*What class(es) of vessel (fighter, small craft, dropships,
etc.)
*What models of targets ("Eisenstorms only," "McKennas
only," "Unions, Triumphs, and Overlords," "any fighter,"
etc.)
*It is, of course, entirely possible just to leave the
mines with the instructions "any hostile vessel."
*What range band (short, medium, etc.) to attack in.
3c) Within those 3 guidelines, the mines are clever enough
to have good priorities and tactics. In other words, within
those guidelines, the mines' player gets to pick any target
to engage, and at any point in the battle.
3d) If a friendly (military) large craft, (military)
spacestation, or (military) ground command post is present,
the mines can be told to engage whoever, whenever.
4) Mines (the enclosing support module, actually) have 20 points of armor. More than 20 points of damage wrecks the mine. Once the missile is launched, the missile is as tough as any normal capital missile (and can only be engaged by the target's point defense systems.) The support module can still be attacked after missile launch if the attacker is feeling vindictive.
5) The mine may attack in any direction. It's RCS is quite nimble and can spin it rapidly to face in any direction before launch.
6) Mines make adequate observation platforms, both of space and the ground below. Several hundred mines in orbit can provide near-continuous coverage of the protected planet, which is useful both for militaries trying to track invaders and dictators keeping an eye on the teeming masses.
DEPLOYMENT
Mines are not weapons that can simply be disgorged by the hundreds from a large cargo ship in the middle of battle. They take time to deploy (and retrieve).
A small craft can deploy 1 mine per turn (and probably won't be able to deploy many). Larger vessels and stations can deploy one per turn per cargo bay door. After ejection, it takes 5 turns for the mine(s) to come on line.
Retrieval takes 3 turns per mine (or support module) per cargo bay door, or just 3 turns per mine (one at a time) for small craft. Non-friendly vessels may not retrieve mines - the mines may quietly self destruct, outright explode, or even launch an attack on a hostile/unknown vessel attempting to retrieve them (depending on their instructions.)
WHAT ABOUT TELE-OPERATED MISSILES?
Yes, a warship can dump tele-operated capital missiles out the door and launch them in huge clusters, like these orbital mines. However, tele-operated mines require special launchers (not a handy cargo bay door), and each missile requires an operator. These mines are pretty much independent - they make their own attack rolls, they don't need tele-operated missile launchers, and you could (theoretically) have thousands near the battlefield.
[1] www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk60.htm
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
01/24/03 07:33 PM
202.138.18.7
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Ahhh…..think about this for a minute. Free-floating T-Series missiles? Are you crazy? No, wait. Don’t answer that. We both know the answer 
“1) An Orbital Mine consists of a Barracuda, White Shark, or Killer Whale attached to a 10-ton support module. They cost 1,000,000 C-bills plus the missile; the support module is reusable. (The support module mostly consists of a fighter cockpit-like targeting and tracking system, a control computer, and an orbital maneuvering system/power plant with negligible thrust.)”
These things would massacre the game. You’d just have to buy X million BV of them and deploy half at each Jump point over the sun, or the lot in orbit around the planet. Anybody who comes in gets splattered. “They’ve got us surrounded with McKennas again, the poor bastards…”
You could get 3,256 of the buggers instead of the cheapest FASA-built WarShip in existence (the Carrack-Class). You’d only need, say, 100 at each Jump Point over the sun (Zenith and Nadir), then you could scatter another 500-1000 across the system’s known Pirate points, then place the other two-odd thousand in near-planetary orbit. Nothing could touch you.
That strikes me as wrong. Oh, so very, very, wrong.
“3) Who to kill, who to kill...
3a) 31st Century computers are pretty clever (and I
typed that with a straight face). Just as mech computers
effortlessly ID and classify other units on the battlefield,
so too do mine targeting computer ID units in space. The
mines can thus be very selective with their targets even
when on their own.
3b) If they're to be left alone, the mines do need some
instructions. The user must designate (before battle) if
the mines will engage:
*Friendly, hostile, and/or unknown targets
*What class(es) of vessel (fighter, small craft, dropships,
etc.)
*What models of targets ("Eisenstorms only," "McKennas
only," "Unions, Triumphs, and Overlords," "any fighter,"
etc.)
*It is, of course, entirely possible just to leave the
mines with the instructions "any hostile vessel."
*What range band (short, medium, etc.) to attack in.
3c) Within those 3 guidelines, the mines are clever enough
to have good priorities and tactics. In other words, within
those guidelines, the mines' player gets to pick any target
to engage, and at any point in the battle.
3d) If a friendly (military) large craft, (military)
spacestation, or (military) ground command post is present,
the mines can be told to engage whoever, whenever.”
So, they’re Teleoperated Missiles. Call them what they are 
“4) Mines (the enclosing support module, actually) have 20 points of armor. More than 20 points of damage wrecks the mine. Once the missile is launched, the missile is as tough as any normal capital missile (and can only be engaged by the target's point defense systems.) The support module can still be attacked after missile launch if the attacker is feeling vindictive.”
And if there’s anything left after their McKenna has just been smacked with one hundred-odd Killer Whales mines….
“5) The mine may attack in any direction. It's RCS is quite nimble and can spin it rapidly to face in any direction before launch.”
ARG! Even Teleoperated missiles have an initial launch facing. These things are like homing, spacebourne Elementals.
As is, your rules make mines *WAAAAAAAAY* too good.
All that said and done, have you seen some of the “point defence” batteries vessels use these days? Some vessels could comfortably swat down four, five, or even more of these in a single phase, so the only way to make them feasible as an offensive weapon would be to deploy them in such huge numbers that your opponent’s howl of “MUUUUUNCHKIN!” and your subsequent screams of agony could be heard in the Kerensky cluster
I think spacebourne mines would work in a similar fashion to BT minefields. Anything with the misfortune to blunder into them takes a whopping great chunk of damage, and, given the circumstances, probably takes an automatic Hull Breach and Critical Hit. Perhaps minefield strikes could even lower the armour arc’s Threshold rating. Perhaps you could buy them in lots of 5, 10, and 15 Naval damage, with no more than 15 points in a single Hex, especially if they do lower the armour’s Threshold. The target number to detonate them would be modified by the type of vessel entering the hex (AeroSpace Fighters rarely detonate the, DropShips quite often detonate them, and those kilometer-long WarShips pretty much always get pasted).
All this assumes that you are using conventional explosive munitions. Anyone with half a brain (and hey, this is me talking here, so you know that if even I thought of this, it’s pretty damn obvious ) would have Nuclear mines, so that anything that entered the hex would be toast. I mean, even the Word of Blake, who worship the mighty machine-spirits of their calculators worked *THAT* one out…
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/26/03 07:43 PM
65.32.253.120
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In reply to:
These things would massacre the game. You’d just have to buy X million BV of them and deploy half at each Jump point over the sun
1) Jump points were addressed. They can't be stationed at the zenith/nadir points.
2) Any player/GM who lets the other side purchase these things by the millions of BVs is a munchkin who's ignoring in-game reality issues, like cost. You have to spend enough to buy a whole warship to endanger 3067-era warship designs like the Mjolnir and Leviathan 2.
In reply to:
You’d only need, say, 100 at each Jump Point over the sun (Zenith and Nadir)
Read the rules again.
In reply to:
So, they’re Teleoperated Missiles. Call them what they are
No, they're not. They make the attack roles by themselves and do NOT require 1 gunner per missile.
Next issue: nothing I can do can make these significantly better balanced than existing tele-operated missiles. Read the tele-operated rules: they can be dumped out many turns ahead of time. I just need a station or dropship carrying 1000 crewmen (cheap 'n easy to build) to command thousands of tele-operated missiles (Krakens, say) launched by a warship months ahead of time. Now, I can take my orbital mines out of the game, Nightward, but I can't do anything about the existing tele-operated missiles, which are cheaper than these mines, and canon.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
01/27/03 10:54 AM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>but I can't do anything about the existing tele-operated missiles, which are cheaper than these mines, and canon. <<<
And also very unlikely to hit the broadside of an armed, mobile, barn. 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
01/27/03 01:28 PM
147.160.125.185
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In reply to:
And also very unlikely to hit the broadside of an armed, mobile, barn.
That, too. Tele-operated missiles may not be accurate, but neither are these orbital mines - they attack with gunnery skill 6.
I was estimating the number of Killer Whale mines it would take to defeat the Mjolnir's frontal armor.
It would need 504/4 = 126 successful hits (none exceeding the damage threshold).
At target 8, 303 Killer Whale orbital mines would be needed to *probably* get enough hits to defeat the frontal armor.
Target 9: 454
Target 10: 756
Target 11: 1512
Target 12: 4536
That doesn't factor in defeating the structural integrity of the Mjolnir and it doesn't count point defense losses.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
01/27/03 03:04 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>they attack with gunnery skill 6.<<<
After all -- if automated systems could fight better than humans....
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
01/28/03 05:20 PM
202.138.16.69
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OK. Obviously I didn't read the rules you made too well.
My main objection is the "Mine" word when these things are more like one-shot T-Seres launchers, since they can target enemy units and go after them instead of being deployed to a single hex and attacking only those that enter it. That's all.
I was trying to funny and sarcastic rather than offensive. Sorry about that.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/29/03 06:36 AM
65.32.253.120
|
In reply to:
I was trying to funny and sarcastic rather than offensive.
Well, then, sorry for being snippy.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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werewolf662000
10/22/05 02:46 AM
81.191.12.170
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Would be a party at a pirate point
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Karagin
10/22/05 09:08 AM
24.243.178.223
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Now here is something that should have made it into AT2r or CEG.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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