Quote:

---

Finally, a "Munchkin" is playing to "win", and doesn't really understand that the point of this game at least, is not to win, but just to play. A Munchkin is the most likely to want to create extremely powerful characters, and to try to find abuses and loopholes in the rules to, again, give their characters more power. A Munchkin is the most likely to confuse Roleplaying Games with the other games that call themselves RPGs, such as Computer and Video Game RPGs, and not see the difference. Munchkins tend to be the younger players, those newer to roleplaying, and even the name comes from the "short people with high pitched voices" from The Wizard of Oz book and movie. Other roleplayers tend to look down on them, as undeveloped.

---

Quote:

---

... if you do air ballet with a mech just so that the target gets the biggest possible modifier to his to-Hit number

---

I know, I'm a lil late, sorry, but better late than never ...


Cray offered a really nice definition, unfortunately he forgot to mention the famous "munchkin list" from the old rec.games.mecha newsgroup. Enjoy!

Quote:

---

And now, with out further ado, the Battle Tech Munchkin List

1) Favorite Mech

Real Men pilot Marauders
Roleplayers pilot Griffins
Loonies pilot Locusts with paintballs loaded for the MG'S
Munchkins pilot Daishi-X's with Triple Heat Sinks, Jumpjets,
6 LPLs and TC.

2) Favorite Mech Weapon

Real Men use ER-PPC'S
Roleplayers use LB-X10AC's with Cluster
Loonies use Smoke SRM's
Munchkins use ER Pulse Compact XL PPCs, with built in TC.

3) Favorite Ground Vehicle

Real Men drive Demolisher IV's
Roleplayers drive refitted Saladins
Loonies drive Cooler Trucks loaded with 9 tons of Hagen-Daz
Munchkins drive Overlord Dropships

4) Favorite Personal firearm

Real Men use Gyro-Slug rifles;
Roleplayers use Hold-Out pulse laser pistols
Loonies use Super Soakers
Munchkins use de-mounted Mech large pulse lasers

4a) Favorite Personal melee weapon

Real Men use Vibro-blades
Roleplayers use Stun Sticks
Loonies use rubber chickens
Munchkins use Mechs

5) Favorite Faction

Real Men play DCMS Elites
Roleplayers play Rhonda's Irregulars
Loonies play Word Of Bob
Munchkins form their own Clan (Clan Doom Munchkin)

7) Favorite piece of equipment

Real take Flak Suits
Roleplayers take sticky gloves
Loonies take vibra-bombs loaded with confetti
Munchkins take Improved Elemental Armor with move 5/5, 50 points of
armor, and a Mech ER-PPC

8) Favorite Archetype

Real men take Veteran Mechwarrior
Roleplayers take Medics, Aero-Space pilots, or Technical Wizard
Loonies take Janitor
Munchkins take Blood Named Clan Il-Khan

9) Favorite Skill

Real choose Piloting Mech
Roleplayers choose Technician
Loonies choose Natural Aptitude - Swimming
Munchkins choose Natural Aptitude Gunnery with a 6 Dex

10) Favorite Non-combat Skill

Real Men use Gambling
Roleplayers use Land-Management
Loonies use Seduction (with a 1 charisma)
Munchkins use Natural-Aptitude Whining

11) Favorite Non-combat Activity


Real Men repair and customize their mechs
Roleplayers sneak into the secret Com-Star facility and
steal new weapons designs
Loonies paint targets on their mechs
Munchkins have their characters go to Virtual World

12) Favorite Drink

Real Men drink Timbiqui Dark
Roleplayers drink Aldeberan Fizzes
Loonies drink Lighter Fluid
Munchkins drink Stim-Packs / whatever gives them plusses /
water (they are all under age, you know)

18) Favorite Combat Phrase:

Real Men say "Come Get Some, Asswipe!"
Roleplayers say "OK lads, as we practiced it...."
Loonies say "I'll run up in front of the Atlas in my Locust and
punch it."
Munchkins say "What do you mean I missed? I have NA Gunnery with a
base skill roll of -6! I can't miss!"

19) Favorite Mech paint scheme
Real Men paint their mech in house colors, decorated with skulls,
lightning bolts, kill markers, etc.
Roleplayers paint the mechs in Camo patterns so good you can't find
the mins on the geo-hexes.
Loonies paint their mechs in international orange and
florescent green paisley.
Munchkins paint their mechs with special "invisible paint" that makes
the mech completely invisible.

20) Favorite dying words
Real Men say "Eat fusion plasma Clan slime!" as they intentionally
stackpole their dying mechs.
Roleplayers say "C'est la Guerre!" and salute their opponents.
Loonies say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
Munchkins say "Damn! I'll have to get another clone out of storage."

21) Favorite terrain
Real men prefer to fight in open rolling hills, with a few trees to
block LOS.
Roleplayers prefer to fight in burning, half-bombed out cities.
Loonies prefer to fight inside the containment buildings of operating
nuclear powerplants.
Munchkins prefer to fight in completely open, flat terrain, where
they have heavily mined all aproaches to their
position.

22) Favorite planet to invade
Real Men like to invade Wotan.
Roleplayers like to invade Luthien.
Loonies like to invade Luna, of course!
Munchkins like to invade the Clan homeworlds all at once, and win.

23) Favorite non-battletech activity
Real Men pump iron.
Roleplayers read Sun-Tzu's "The Art of War" in the original chinese.
Loonies perfect their Marx brothers impersonations.
Munchkins go over the text of the "Battletech Compendium" with their
family lawyers, looking for loopholes.

24) Favorite roleplaying game other than Battletech/Mechwarrior
Real Men play Twilight 2000
Roleplayers play Paranoia
Loonies play TOON
Munchkins play D&D - only they get to start their characters at
30th level.

25) Favorite Boardgame other than Btech
Real Men play Squad Leader
Roleplayers play Diplomacy
Loonies play Awful Green Things From Outer Space
Munchkins play Star Fleet Rules Wars ... err... Star Fleet Battles,
and own every single expansion set and addendum -
as well as having them memorized.

26) Favorite Computer Game
Real Men play Duke Nukem 3D on "Damn I'm Good" with Respawn, and
never
bother with any of the weapons other than the pistol.
Roleplayers play "Myst", and don't own the cheat book.
Loonies play "Pac Man", without looking at the screen.
Munchkins play "MechWarrior", and have all the cheat codes programmed
into their gravis gamepads.

---

Quote:

---

Got this on Thursday. It was worth every blessed cent

http://www.sjgames.com/munchkin/

Some quotes (note:the authors are British, which explains their
inability to write proper English):

On Magic:

"Seemingly subtle and boring spells can be hideously abused by
a competent munchkin into producing all manner of munchkin effects.
Examine each and every spell carefully to seem if you can spot a
twink-worthy loophole. There are moral bonus points for demonstrating
that some innocuous little "non combat" spell can be used to make
people's heads explode. For example, there's that dinky little spell
that produces a pint or two of drinking water. This is supposed to be
used by idiots who get stuck out in the desert without enough
supplies. But check; does your rulebook say *where* this water can or
cannot be produced? If not, how is that ogre going to feel when his
brain suddenly has to share its skull-space with a pint of water?
Similarly, slowing or entangling spells rarely worry dragons
much. But will they work for just a few seconds on a flying dragon? If
so, don't forget the sound effects: neeeeoooOOOOOOWWWWWW-BOOM!"

On Castle Sieges:

"With a group of archers and a mage with an enlarge spell you
can effectively bombard the castle with giant redwoods. Alternatively.
you could fill a catapult with gravel and file a granulated mountain."

"Or Monster Summoning; here's an idea. Get a couple of mages
to cast this as many times as they can into the enemy's camp and just
sit back and watch the fun."

On dress:

"Most modern characters will want to dress stylishly, or at
least appropriately for their personality and background. The
cheese-weasel couldn't give a monkey's. The only concern s are
protection, and modern roleplaying offers them effective protection
against most things. It's not unusual to see the modern munchkin in
full bomb-squad ballistic armor, wearing a fireproof bodysuit
underneath and with an extra flak-jacket on top."

On Crime:

"As far as most criminals would be concerned, the perfect
crime would be one in which hey pulled off the whole job without being
detected and with no witnesses. The perfect crime for them in one
where you can live for the rest of your life on the proceeds from that
one job.
This is no good whatsoever for the munchkin.
The perfect crime for a munchkin is one which involves plenty
of gun battles, hopefully a car chase, and some hostage-taking. One
that provides more and better guns for the next job and to pay off the
extravagant drug habit they've taken among their flaws. Their perfect
crime has no witnesses because they've killed them all.

A munchkin-organized bank robbery runs something like this...

9:00am - The group of robbers enters the bank wearing silly
masks and brandishing large firearms. They threaten everyone and
collect all the money from the cashiers and people in the back. They
break open the automatic tellers and take all the cash out of their,
too.
9:05am - The security guard tries to be a hero and gets thirty
rounds from an Ingram for his trouble. There is much screaming and
swearing.
9:06am - A squad support machine gun is set up in the foyer to
keep the police out.
9:07am - Work begins on breaking into the vault.
9:09am - The police arrive; the first ones in are shot down in
a hail of fully-automatic fire. The police pull back and call for an
armed response team.
9:15am - One of the robbers tortures the manager to death in a
back room for no readily apparent reason
9:20am - The robbers set booby traps on all the entrances.
9:25am - One of the robbers has an illicit sexual encounter
with one of the cashiers in the staff toilet for no readily apparent
reason.
9:30am - The armed response unit has a bash at getting into
the building and gets blown to hell. The police send for more backup.
9:40am - The robbers breach the vault and take a load of money
and other valuables. They leave the hostages tied up in the vault with
a bomb set for 9:50 a.m.
9:45am - The robbers make good their escape by assaulting the
police lines with military grade fully-automatic weaponry and a few
grenades. The city's finest is slaughtered and the robbers take off in
a few cars, hotly pursued by police, who they continue to kill until
they reach Mexico. They then blow all their cash on drugs, tequila and
senoritas before heading back to the States to do it all again."

On capturing aliens:

"The Alien Control Device:
Used to control aliens. "But how is this possible?" we hear
you ask. This unit is quite simply a cattle prod. (Starting to get the
idea yet?) You prod the alien with the fwazakking en and they do what
you want; if they don't, you fwazak them again until they do. Aliens
are supposed to by technologically advanced and quite intelligent, so
they should understand quite quickly that compliance means an end to
the pain. If not, they are obviously overrated and you need to find
the higher intelligence that's controlling them."

On Mecha:

"The humanoid mecha is the backbone of most mecha-oriented
militaries, and is often found as a mass-produced grunt model. This
makes it just a tad predictable; everyone who has a mecha has probably
owned a humanoid one at some point and therefore knows all its
weakness and quirks. The other problem with this style is that, due to
its use as a front-line grunt soldier, everyone knows that they pilot
is in the torso or the head, so everyone shoots out the torso section,
or blows off the head, at the first opportunity."

On Tanks:

"As a downside, tanks are often slow and get shot at an awful
lot. The expression "F*ck! It's a tank! Blast it, Skeeter!" is not
entirely unknown on the battlefield. Should you want a tank, then you
should go for a big bastard with loads of armor and gun; sod the
speed, you're a tank for Christ's sake. Roll over people, slowly,
while laughing."

On Superpowers:

"Some people would say that a superhero has to be responsible
and use his powers with restraint so that he doesn't accidentally
destroy and entire city with his eye beams, ect. ect. We say sod that;
where's the fun in holding back? If you are in a fight with a
supervillian and you have the power to destroy the entire city he
resides in while remaining completely unhurt yourself, they do it. OK,
so it might kill loads of civilians, but who cares? They were probably
guilty of something, even if it was a late library books."

On your colleagues:

"Just about every RPG book in existence has, in its opening
section, a paragraph or two about how roleplaying games are different
to normal games. They are non-competitive, oriented toward cooperative
play, and encourage teamwork. The GM is not the enemy, he merely acts
as a narrator, setting the scene and playing the bit parts.
Wrong.
As every munchkin knows, the GM is the enemy and the other
players are there to be exploited, used, stolen from, and probably
killed for their worth in experience points. They are the secondary
enemy, you are on your own, and any means you can use to crush,
humiliate and destroy them is cool."

On GMing:

"Are your players Munchkins?:
Question 6: The characters are locked in a room with a demon
who wants them to sign away their souls by contract. What do they do?
a. Quiver and pray for salvation
b. Sell their soul in exchange for massive amounts of power
(with a view to a double-cross)
c. Sign, trying to hide their laughter at the demon who is to
stupid to realize they have already signed with his boss."

---

Quote:

---

Oh, inspired by Probe and many others of the Church of Battletech . . .
and with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy . . .

YOU MIGHT BE A MUNCHKIN IF . . .

(The original, plus some additions)

-you and your friend decide to play Battletech, you show your friend the
mech and that person babbles "Game Over, Game Over" for the next ten minutes.

-your friend babbles for the rest of his life (personal expreience
(jbezeau@uoguelph.ca (Jonboy!))

-people you play against insist on picking both there and your mechs.

-you wish Battletech still had 150 ton mechs.

- your battletech still does. ((jbezeau@uoguelph.ca (Jonboy!))

-you think the words "Clan Honor Code" is a controdiction in terms, and you
insist on being in one of the Clans.

- you think RoE means Roll Over Eleven, and hold the clan players to it.
(jbezeau@uoguelph.ca (Jonboy!))

-you think that tactical nukes would be a nice addition to the game,
especially if they could be mounted on a Mech (also known as "Lance
Immediate Disappearance Equipment").

-you have had fights over your belief that you SHOULD be allowed more
tonnage than anybody else since you use "cooler gadgets".

-you use a lot of "cooler gadgets".

-any of the cooler gadgets are from unbound. (jbezeau@uoguelph.ca (Jonboy!))

-you "create" a lot of "new cool gadgets".

-like advanced DNI... (jbezeau@uoguelph.ca (Jonboy!))

-all the "new cool gadgets" take up only one crit and one ton, but are
more lethal than a Gauss Rifle.

-all the cool new gadgets reduce the effectiveness of the only weapons
that the other players are allowed to use. (jbezeau@uoguelph.ca (Jonboy!))

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From JYSETO@SCIENCE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (QYV):

- You make your "ultra suprime" mech and when it gets blown up (really
easily), you say: "well, it wuzn't designed for that situation anywayz."

- You design the ultimate mech that only works underwater if the
temperature was 5 degrees C, the visibility was nil and your enemy only
has infantry.

- You use scouts as mobile tactial nukes.

- You use dropships as cannon fodder.

- You consider 50 longtoms as "sufficient" artillery support for a lance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Camille Klein, (capella@winternet.com):

#insert

If you show up at a gaming session, only to have everyone else decide to
surrender to you on the spot -- you might be a munchkin!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From G. Timothy Walton (bc106@FreeNet.Carleton.CA):

If you can't understand why no-one will let you use your HV Caseless
Ultra LB 20-X on your ASN, you might be a munchkin.

If you refuse to fight unless you get higher tonnage, two levels of
technology advantage, and automatic initiative, against the newbies you're
teaching, you might be a munchkin.

If you think FASA's designers are stupid for not putting the best tech
on every war machine, and eliminating all design flaws, regardless of
role/cost considerations, you _are_ a munchkin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Robert York (york@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu):

If you make a 100 tonner with a 1/2 engine, you might be a redmech (har
har har, oops sorry a munchkin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are in no particular order, but are as close to the originals as I can
get. Flames ignored, but asbestos is already donned (and it is *itchy*).
Anyway, any more suggestions?

Owen Holder

---

Quote:

---

30: VLK-QA Valkyrie.
40: WTH-1 Whitworth.
55: Honourable mention: Griffin (both Variants)

75:

---

Okay, why the Valkie? It sucks unless you have heaps of them. The Whitworth is okay but not worthy of being classified 'munchie'. It uses 2 x LRM10s, something I have proved beyond a point to be the least munchy of any LRM rack in the game.

Rating the Griffin as an honourable mention was far better than classifying it munchie due to the fact it has nowhere near full armour, all weapons are on the right-hand side of the unit, it used 2 tons of ammo where it needs probably only one for its role and it generally overheats alot as well as using the aforementioned most-useless of the LRM racks. The Lineholder for those wanting to see a more solid unit, would be classified as closer to munchie than the Griffin.

For the 75 tonners, no mention of the Flashman?

Quote:

---

LEVEL ONE

THINGS NOT TO TOUCH WITH A BARGE POLE

The Worst Designed 'Mechs EVAR.

INNER SPHERE

20: Fireball. It lives up to its name.
35: OTT-7K Ostscout. Carries no weapons. If you're that desperate for a fast-moving TAG unit, use a Sprint Scout Helicopter.
35: RVN-1X. Used to have special rules. No longer does.
40: Asassin. Cicada.* Clint. All are under-armoured. (*There is a nice Cicada variant in Record Sheets: Upgrades, but other than that, this 'Mech blows.)
60: Champion, Lancelot. Both are ever-engined, and undergunned and under-armoured. Helios. Piece of garbage from the word go; no redeeming features whatsoever. Rifleman. Over-armed, under-armoured, and under-cooled.
65: JagerMech. Over-gunned, under-armoured. Hellbringer (Clan OmniMech). Worthless.
75: WR-DG-02FC. Useless. Over-supplied with Gauss ammo, and as a result armour has suffered. Carries two One-Shot Streak SRM-2s when it should carry standard launchers with a ton of ammunition. Both 3055-era Rakshasas. The Inner Sphere cannot replicate Clan technology, let alone the masterwork that is the Timber Wolf.
80: Standard-model Chargers from 3025. Engine too large, armour and weapons far too weak.
90: Cyclops (up until 3050). Not impressed by this design.
100: Mackie. It might be the first 'Mech to be built, but by 3025 you can build 50-tonners to the same specifications.

---

Quote:

---

huh dose that mean

---

Just stumbled upon the following wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(role-playing_games)


All you ever - or never - wanted to know about Munchkins, Munchkinism (AKA Powergaming) etc.

Quote:

---

Finally, a "Munchkin" is playing to "win", and doesn't really understand that the point of this game at least, is not to win, but just to play.

---

Quote:

---

A Munchkin is the most likely to want to create extremely powerful characters, and to try to find abuses and loopholes in the rules to, again, give their characters more power. A Munchkin is the most likely to confuse Roleplaying Games with the other games that call themselves RPGs, such as Computer and Video Game RPGs, and not see the difference. Munchkins tend to be the younger players, those newer to roleplaying, and even the name comes from the "short people with high pitched voices" from The Wizard of Oz book and movie. Other roleplayers tend to look down on them, as undeveloped.

---

Quote:

---

Battletech players often tend to look down heavily upon "munchkinny" designs which use the broken equipment, the unbalanced level 3 equipment, or ignore relevance: such as designs using lots of normally faction restricted tech.

---

Quote:

---

Crays definition though is dead on. (Jeff Foxworthy:)
You may be a munchkin if:
You constantly compare BVs, and often try to optimize your BV

---

Quote:

---

You ignore cost in cbills.

---

Quote:

---

You always build clan mechs.

---

Quote:

---

Your use of medium lasers (or the derivatives) in designs accounts for at least 2/3rds the weapondry on most of your designs.

---

Quote:

---

You change rules to make your designs or mechs better, such as 100 ton LAMs.

---

Quote:

---

Your favorite cannon designs are those that are arena mechs, or the clan equivalents like the Goshawk.

---

Quote:

---

I would add to that - If you think that life support is optional, but a targeting computer isn't...

---

Quote:

---

If you think the Large X-Pulse Laser is a light support weapon...

---

Quote:

---

If you think 3/5/3 is a versatile movement rate...

---

Quote:

---

If you think a 90 tonner with max standard armor is underprotected...

---

Quote:

---

If your miniature collection includes 12 Dire Wolfs, yet not a single design under 85 tons...

---

Quote:

---

A forty point heat spike isn't a problem if you can blow up any mech in the process.

---

Quote:

---

...your idea of a bad first round is your alpha strike with 4 er ppc's didn't hit

---

Quote:

---

...it takes your mech more than 3 turns to completely cool down ...it doesn't seem excessive to you if all your mechwarriors have a pilot skill of 1 and a gunnery.

---

Quote:

---

if you only build Clan, but insist on using the best of Sphere tech too, like C3 and Null-Sig/Stealth armor

---

Quote:

---

... if you do air ballet with a mech just so that the target gets the biggest possible modifier to his to-Hit number

---

Quote:

---

These are the same folks who can't play without having a mech that never overheats, is the fastest it can be for it's weight class, max armor and pulse/targ combo and must be Clan tech and then can only have a 0/0 pilot in it.

They don't play to have fun they play to win at all cost even it if means ruining the game for others.

---

Quote:

---

The reality of the situation is most people seem to have a problem with Munchkins because they appearantly get beaten by them, if that wasn't the case the animosity just wouldn't be there.

---

Quote:
There's no lag on MegaMek. It's a virtual table top. And just about no way to cheat. It's literally the same as playing on a table with all of the rules coded in.

Quote:
The dose makes the difference.

A healthy little dose of munchkinism added from time to time to spice up routine gameplay should be no big problem for a nice and healthy mix of people in a gaming group / community.

Of course the size of your gaming group / community matters as well.

A single, dedicated hardcore munchkin could be one too many for a small gaming group / community already.

Pretty much the same principles apply if you dare to take a closer look at other, more extreme styles of play.

Pretty much the same "Win at all costs" attitude defines hardcore PVP-ers and or hardcore PK-ers in MMORPGs.

The larger your MMORPG's community / player base and the healthier and more varied the mix of different styles of play the more robust your MMORPG.

Community size / server population matters and the right mix of people and playstyles is critical for success as well.


Pretty much the same applies for successful forums as well: It takes a critical minimum mass / number of people and a healthy mix of different people / opinions as well ...

Quote:
Venomous thread, here. Good lord. Here's some fun retorts:

You might be a bad BattleTech player if...

(1) You spend your time calling people "Munchkins" instead of improving your game play.

(2) Your armies are poorly made and you rage quit instead of learn why you just took a beating.

(3) You think only some designs should be allowed because you're too lazy or too poor of a player to figure out the rules.

(4) You think it's still 1986 and that anything other than 3025 "isn't BattleTech."

There is certainly some truth to what you say All the ranting about "Munchkins" shows at least, if not worse, behavior than displayed by "Munchkins." Something to think about...