cowboy
05/25/04 09:32 AM
198.81.26.77
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Code:
Small ER PPC
Dmg:12
Heat:10
Mass:5 tons
Crits:2
Ranges:1-8/9-16/17-27
BV:412
Cost:300,000 C-Bills
Large ER PPC
Dmg:20
Heat:20
Mass:8 tons
Crits:3
Ranges:1-5/6-10/11-15
BV:425
Cost:800,000 C-Bills
Edited by cowboy (05/25/04 09:39 AM)
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Cray
05/25/04 11:32 AM
147.160.1.5
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Okay, those are looking pretty balanced for Clan weapons. Even Clanners'd have trouble mounting more than 2 Large PPCs, and they're ton-for-ton, heat point-for-heat point the same as standard Clan ER PPCs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
05/26/04 04:20 AM
216.14.192.234
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Well considering the problem the large weapons have at maintaining a damamge-to-tonnage-heat ratios should not be either higher heat or higher damage? That being said the shorter ranges do help rectify the issue somewhat.
As for the Small ER PPC that is just broken, no formulae I could fit the other ER Energy weapons in even look at fitting that weapon in. Its far too easy seeing this weapon not only replacing the ER Large Laser but the ER PPC and Large Pulse Laser due to the sheer brokeness of the weapon.
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Silenced_Sonix
05/26/04 04:38 AM
196.7.18.49
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Okay, here is a list of the old energy weapons:
SMALL Laser - 3 dam
MEDIUM Laser - 5 dam
LARGE Laser - 8 dam
(PPC) - 10 dam
(ERPPC) - 15 dam for Clan
As you can see, the various 'levels' were all sequential, and dmage raised/lowered accordingly. Making a SMALL PPC should then be on par with the LARGE laser, while a LARGE PPC should be level with the Clan ERPPC, or higher. Just as SMALL, MEDIUM and LARGE are elvels of dmage, so PPC can be seen as the foruth level. Thus, a SMALL PPC would be... You all understand what I am trying to say? I advise sticking with the previous 'Heavy' and 'Light' designations, and then just applying the canon modifiers for other weapons of the class.
Evolve or Die
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Cray
05/26/04 06:07 AM
68.200.105.227
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Quote:
As for the Small ER PPC that is just broken, no formulae I could fit the other ER Energy weapons in even look at fitting that weapon in. Its far too easy seeing this weapon not only replacing the ER Large Laser but the ER PPC and Large Pulse Laser due to the sheer brokeness of the weapon.
*It's 20% heavier (5 tons vs 4) than the ER LL; OTOH, it does 20% more damage. Ton for ton, it's about identical. I think the extra crit it uses (2 vs 1) helps balance it, too. I like the balance there - the Small PPC definitely makes you ask, "Do I have the crits and tonnage to use the Small PPC, or would the ER LL fit better?"
*The Small PPC is 16.67% lighter than the PLL and does 20% more damage per hit, but the reduced accuracy would be telling. I'd still take a Clan PLL over the Small PPC any day.
*The Small PPC is also 1 ton lighter than the Clan ER PPC, but does less damage per ton than the Clan ER PPC (2.5pts/ton vs 2.4pts/ton). A few extra hexes of range vs 3pts less damage...again, they're close enough that I'd have to balance what I wanted out of the Clan omni mech.
IMO, the Small PPC doesn't have enough performance advantages to say it renders any of those weapons utterly obsolete. It's another weapon in the same class.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
05/26/04 06:08 AM
68.200.105.227
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Quote:
As you can see, the various 'levels' were all sequential, and dmage raised/lowered accordingly. Making a SMALL PPC should then be on par with the LARGE laser, while a LARGE PPC should be level with the Clan ERPPC, or higher. Just as SMALL, MEDIUM and LARGE are elvels of dmage, so PPC can be seen as the foruth level. Thus, a SMALL PPC would be... You all understand what I am trying to say?
Not really. What's the point of sticking to old trends so slavishly? The PPCs aren't lasers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
05/26/04 06:26 AM
216.14.192.234
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All your arguments only used a small component of the details of the weapon.
It easily outranges all the above weapons. It has the same heat output as the Large Pulse Laser, yet greater damage and lighter.
Lets look at the ER Large vs LPPC:
ER Large 12 heat 10 damage 4 tons with 1 crit
Light PPC 10 heat 12 damage 5 tons with 2 crits
The 2 heat generally mean a heatsink difference, meaning 1 ton and 2 crits, the result would be:
ER Large 10 heat (12-2) 10 damage (still two short) 5 tons and 3 crits (after you add the heatsink difference)
The ER Large is still shorter-ranged, and does less damamge.
As you were saying Cray?
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cowboy
05/26/04 08:47 AM
198.81.26.77
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Small ER PPC
Dmg:9
Heat:12
Mass:5 tons
Crits:2
Ranges:1-8/9-16/17-24
BV:412
Cost:300,000 C-Bills
Large ER PPC
Dmg:20
Heat:20
Mass:8 tons
Crits:3
Ranges:1-5/6-10/11-15(4 min)
BV:425
Cost:800,000 C-Bills
The Large ER PPC & Small ER PPC was designed to replace the regular Clan ER PPC.The Light ER PPC gives you longer range and plus gives off less heat that the regular Clan ER PPC.While the Large ER PPC is more for close range fighting.It causes more damage but generates more heat.So you can only but one or two of the Large ER PPCs on any mech.As of now the Large ER PPC and the Small ER PPC are still in the R&D phase.It wont see combat anytime soon.
Edited by cowboy (05/26/04 08:48 AM)
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Cray
05/26/04 11:31 AM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
All your arguments only used a small component of the details of the weapon
I didn't think the others were worth mentioning, because we both could see the implications of the heat difference and when it mattered - or didn't. For example:
Quote:
The ER Large is still shorter-ranged, and does less damamge.
Sure. And the ER LL is also lighter and more compact. It won't always need an extra DHS (like when you're still within the integral engine heat capacity). You won't always have 2 neighboring critical slots to mount the Light PPC, and you may be able to stuff the extra DHS for the ER LL into the engine. You won't always have 5 tons for the Light PPC, or may want to use the extra ton for another item. IMO, the weapons are very closely matched, enough that you can seriously consider using either one for an application. Admittedly, I'd pick the Small PPC more often, but the ER LL retains more than a niche utility.
So, I'm still of the opinion that claiming the Small PPC obsoleted the ER PPC, PLL, and ER LL is too strong a statement (particularly when the existing PLL already made the ER PPC and ER LL obsolete   ).
And a 2-heat increase to the Small PPC would reduce your concerns about the Small PPC, wouldn't it?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
05/26/04 11:33 AM
147.160.1.5
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I don't like the downgrades, especially the minimum of 4 on the heavy PPC. That's just unnecessary and really inhibits the weapon.
Like I said on CBT.com, Cowboy, wait a week or so for the thread to quiet down before weighing all the inputs and implementing changes.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
05/27/04 02:17 AM
216.14.192.233
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Now you have made the LPPC probably a bit too weak. Best thing to do is to look at the system as compare it to those already in existence. Ask yourself:
- is it too light for the damage and/or range?
- is it too similar to weapons already in play?
The redesign would be better used by the IS if you plonked on a couple of minimum hexes and added a ton. maybe 6 tons 3 crits, 2 minimum hexes.
In my opinion, to bring it in level with other items already in use by the clans perhaps something along the lines of this:
Damage: 10
Heat: 10
Mass: 5 tons
Criticals: 2
Ranges: 1-8, 9-16, 17-26
This though makes it excessively similar to the ER Large. For the record there isn't alot of play due to the clans ER Large doing 10 damage with a range of 25 and the Large Pulse Laser doing 10 and having a range of 20.
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Vicen_Korel
06/20/04 11:27 PM
66.38.54.169
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hmmm....
Small PPC (is there one hasn't bothered to look and doesn't have level 3 rules anyways)
Tons 5
Criticals 2
Damage 10
Heat 7
Range 1-7/8-15/16-21
Light PPC
Tons 6
crits 2
Damage 9
Heat 10
range 1-9/10-18/19-26
Large PPC
Tons 9(8 possible alternative)
Crits 3(4 with the 8 ton weight)
Damage 20
Heat 20
Range 1-7/8-13/14-20
Heavy PPC
Tons 9
Crits 4
Damage 25/22/18
Heat 25
Range 1-6/7-12/12-18
Just my thoughts on the matter. The idea could work cowboy, but it will be very hard to balance, the question is do you want to go through the trouble of all that work when there are weapons that come close to the same ideas? If you do don't get discouraged because of the amount of suggestions you are pretty close to getting it balanced in my opinion.
As to why i chose as i did: The small would have near the same punch as a regular because no matter how small you get a particle traveling at extreme speeds is still going to hurt something but wouldn't go near as far and would require less energy (aka less heat) to get it to go in the first place. Tthe light mass of the particle beam for the light would help it travel farther but more resistance would be met at greater distances as the shot defused. The large would have a smiliar problem because of the amount of energy needed to move the particles. And the heavy would fall apart because of critical mass issues (or something like that)
A nasty bit of pseudo science I know, but still kind of close to something real
"Nothing sends your love like an ER PPC"
--Vicen Korel
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MrMagonigal
06/21/04 04:02 PM
69.28.165.161
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None of this discussion even considers the fact that the Pulse Lasers are more accuate than the PPC's. If I had to chose between teh Lage PPC and 2 Large Pulse Lasers (all Clan Wepons), then I would have to go for the PLL's as you have a better chance to hit with them. However, I do like your idea for the Light and Heavy PPC's.
I am the Ultimate Professional Amatuer!
Good Luck, Good Hunting and Stay ALIVE!!!
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Minnime
07/13/04 07:28 PM
217.229.97.31
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Pointless design, Clan weapons do not follow a logic like IS lvl 1/ lvl 2 weapons did.
I'm not sure why FASA broke with their balance, but they did when they did include Clan weapons.
A light version would go for this:
3t, 1slot, Heat 8, Dam 8 - same range (7/14/23)
FASA logic, round weight up, round dam/heat up, if you rund down you get, 2t, 1slot, Heat 7, Dam 7, same range.
You could make it 10/15 as non ER version as well. Ranges would be 6/12/18, 5t, 2 slots
A light version would be 5/8, 3t, 1slot 3/6/9, ER would go for 10/8, 4/8/14
Making Energyweapons more range, less damage, less heat is a totally pointless approach. Making them more damage, more heat, more range at least makes *some* sense.
You can make it:
IS:
Normal: 20 Heat, 10 Dam, 14t, 8/16/26
ER: 25 Heat, 10 Dam, 14t, 9/18/29
Clan:
Normal: 20 Heat, 15 Dam, 12t, 8/16/26
ER: 25 Heat, 15 Dam, 12t, 9/18/29
--> This one is correct
"Light": 6t, 25 Heat, 8 Dam, 9/18/29
or XL: 3t, 18 Heat, 6 Dam, 8/16/26
If you want "range", go and make a light Clan Gauss, that one will have some nice range, but not a PPC.
greets
Minni
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