Requiem
08/16/19 02:26 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: And where are all these ships coming from to do so?
The ship-yards around the Luna Colony above Terra or how about the Mars ship-yards.
The Resistance? The Outer Reaches Rebellion of 2236? Aren’t we now a hundred years after the initial colonisation began?
QUOTE: It is an almost guaranteed loss.
If colonisation is a guaranteed loss why did anyone ever leave Terra? Or is this referring to a different era?
QUOTE: Guarding them on the way out, but leaving them as soon as they can,
So the Kerensky exodus fleet didn’t have any warships as they returned back into the IS after all the Jump-ships exited IS space?
QUOTE: Why are you trying to colonize the deep periphery?
To create a buffer (a Militarised Zone) between the IS and the Clans. Thus providing the IS with an early warning in the event of a renewed assault into the IS.
If you can stop the Clans within the Deep Periphery rather than in the IS are you not protecting your realm – people and industry - against any future invasion.
Also resources – rare minerals / gems;
Also to increase the size of your realm – hence its importance when compared to any other House – ego of the ruler;
QUOTE: …. but the average is 1 week. So your two year voyage to a world still isn't going to happen.
Does this mean for every one week stop you don’t allow the Drop-ships to conduct a gravity burn? – Back to the problem / issues with animals and people regarding muscle degradation.
QUOTE: Number of Ships
Variance of opinion!
QUOTE: Shows that this is NOT a real colony, but someone sponsoring a new region for them.
Wat is the definition of a colony? A new settlement, by colonists, upon a new land?
The number of people is immaterial what is important is that there has been a new settlement established upon (as in this case) an as yet unsettled piece of land.
Unfortunately the definition - Colonies tend to be small farms at first then grow. – is incredibly limited.
So, where does the company come into this other than as the owners of the property to which all colonists own a share.
And if a company did establish an industry base upon this new world together with the original colonists- why can’t you consider them a part of the expedition? – in the far future I can see many companies establishing offices within the colony – their agents would then be the first on the ground to discover any new minerals / gem deposits.
QUOTE: And it is a demand.
Really? Please note that your view and mine are vastly different on this point.
QUOTE: Not even close. If that were true, ALL worlds in the IS would have this.
True, in my view of an alternate IS all worlds colonised using my view of what a colony ship is should have a dedicated hospital as of this stature when it was first colonised – what happens in future years is the matter of speculation.
QUOTE: Moving an animal from the hold to the grav deck
Um …. Can they even fit through all the different doors? This is easier said than done especially if they make a mess. (Cleaning and Health issues!)
QUOTE: Food for 20,000 – 40,000
Storage bay – hydroponics bay – aquaculture bay – plus there is my huge gravity deck. – Problem solved.
Plus the ship is built with air purifiers in mind for 40,000 people.
QUOTE: Even professionals can have a dream to be part of something greater. There is a very sharp limit of how many would even consider going …
Who knows how many would want to go as only assumptions can be made.
QUOTE: Lack of knowledge of the clans? The warriors would absolutely be the first on the worlds to make sure any battle is done by them.
In 3049 these worlds within the deep periphery are, on the whole, empty so all the Clans’ warriors are just milling around doing nothing whist they watch the technicians working to establish new buildings etc.
This is a great use of their time …..
As for the HPG Net wasn’t this ship to ship with each ship having two in built HPG relays to allow for rapid communication between the IS and the Clans’ home worlds?
QUOTE: So the clans can create a logistical chain from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS but the IS cannot create one from the IS to the end of the Deep Periphery?
Sorry but I do not know what is being said here with regards to a logistics chain to your forward military bases in the deep periphery as a means of keeping the Clans at a distance from the IS and subsequently during the colonization of this area of space to Omi / Victor’s realm being established.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 12:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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And where are all these ships coming from to do so? Unless military run, there would not be more then a handful of ships in this region, and even then, that isn't likely they could join any sort of resistance movement. All know the clans would take anything they wanted to in the region. So how do you move anyone?
Since you missed the rest of the sentence, I thought I would put it back up.
This is not the original expansion as the clans did not exist at that time. Read and understand the whole paragraph.
If colonisation is a guaranteed loss why did anyone ever leave Terra? Or is this referring to a different era?
Not colonization, but the huge ship being sent out is the focus of this statement.
So the Kerensky exodus fleet didn’t have any warships as they returned back into the IS after all the Jump-ships exited IS space?
I guess I will have to walk you thru everything. The ships leaving is not about the exodus, but about any warships accompanying colony ships during most of the rest of the time people were going out to colonize. Your realm for instance, would not have warships in system for more then the time they need to recharge, UNLESS it is a military base.
To create a buffer (a Militarised Zone) between the IS and the Clans. Thus providing the IS with an early warning in the event of a renewed assault into the IS.
So all colonizes out here are military outposts, not any real commercial colonies. So again. Why the huge ships? You would want more then a few dropships to remain and protect the system, as a single large ship would be blown out of the sky, as you said it would be if it was a war ship. Now the clans might board and take the ship, if they KNEW it was a civilian ship. Either way, you lose it.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 12:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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If you can stop the Clans within the Deep Periphery rather than in the IS are you not protecting your realm – people and industry - against any future invasion.
If you destroy them utterly, then there is no chance of them forming again. Oh wait. That removes the need for the realm so the future of the alt doesn't work... damn. Need to rethink that.
Also to increase the size of your realm – hence its importance when compared to any other House – ego of the ruler;
All of the IS rulers have issues with their realms the size they are. A massive migration out would screw them over. Even without the number of ships issue, the costs as well as spreading out the military to cover it all would be foolish.
QUOTE: …. but the average is 1 week. So your two year voyage to a world still isn't going to happen.
Does this mean for every one week stop you don’t allow the Drop-ships to conduct a gravity burn? – Back to the problem / issues with animals and people regarding muscle degradation.
Huh? Where did you come up with this? A gravity burn can be for a few hours or to planetfall and back.
Unfortunately the definition - Colonies tend to be small farms at first then grow. – is incredibly limited.
Unfortunately, this is the truth of history. So that means not a single colony survived to populate the world with your definition.
QUOTE: And it is a demand.
Really? Please note that your view and mine are vastly different on this point.
Of course you aren't going to admit you are demanding the canon writers change the rules to fit your vision. The demand they do so have gotten worse. There is no hint of accepting that you do house rules for this and leave it. The game HAS to fit your alt. But then, I can see why you don't see or understand that being thru out the thread.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 01:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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True, in my view of an alternate IS all worlds colonised using my view of what a colony ship is should have a dedicated hospital as of this stature when it was first colonised – what happens in future years is the matter of speculation.
Again. Shifting to alt when talking about canon to avoid seeing the statement doesn't work. Try again.
QUOTE: Food for 20,000 – 40,000
Storage bay – hydroponics bay – aquaculture bay – plus there is my huge gravity deck. – Problem solved.
You think that will feed that amount of people for two years? The few crew members on board the Invader jumpship aren't fed with the ones they have. You think that having fields for the ranches, housing for the people, and all this will fit in a single ship? And then it would continue to rotate and jump as well? Imbalance would cause the ship to wobble with the grav deck moving. And without any gravity, that water would float into everything.
n 3049 these worlds within the deep periphery are, on the whole, empty so all the Clans’ warriors are just milling around doing nothing whist they watch the technicians working to establish new buildings etc.
They ran into more then a few populated worlds before getting to the edge of the IS. Most had poor forces, as they were pirate forces, or small communities started by groups leaving the IS behind.
Curious how the great tactician doesn't understand the modular buildings that are used by the military to put up bases rather quickly. And they did not have to sit while the buildings were being done. The warriors just had to make sure the world was safe and move on.
Is that why the stories focused on land fall or station assaults to gain access to the HPG network? Must really be stupid to have all those ships locked into position to keep the network up and running. Much like having a command circuit, which would mean very rapid movement of units from the home worlds.
QUOTE: So the clans can create a logistical chain from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS but the IS cannot create one from the IS to the end of the Deep Periphery?
Sorry but I do not know what is being said here with regards to a logistics chain to your forward military bases in the deep periphery as a means of keeping the Clans at a distance from the IS and subsequently during the colonization of this area of space to Omi / Victor’s realm being established.
Oh I love this one. You do not know what is being said here, but yet you were the one to say it.
Might be why it seems you don't understand most of what is going on. I would suggest reading your last post and keeping up with the conversation.
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Requiem
08/17/19 09:10 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Read and understand the whole paragraph.
If I understand what you are attempting to allude to – the IS would send colony ships into the Clan Invasion Corridor?
Why would they when they are virtually unarmed merchantmen? Even as an armed merchantman they would not get anywhere near the clan invasion front until their security can be assured.
QUOTE: Colony ships being a guaranteed loss over time
Yes they are very expensive initial cost, however when you factor in their lifespan they would more than make up for the initial cost.
As most will have a second life as a either a cruise liner – attached to a large ranching operation – or attached to the military as a mobile command and control fortress and hidden in an unknown galaxy (similar to Air Force One) where House Lords to could run to in the event of a catastrophe on the Capital World.
QUOTE: …. would not have warships in system for more than the time they need to recharge, UNLESS it is a military base.
Supposition … Logistical chains and the support elements attached to them can vary – have a look at the WW2 supply fleets from America to England. Though I would believe all supply fleets would be assigned with either a dedicated warship or vengeance dropship – aerospace fighters with Alamo 5Kt missiles.
QUOTE: So all colonizes out here are military outposts, not any real commercial colonies.
Timing …..
First, military expedition where the IS are driving the Clans back one world at a time.
After the fighting has finished on these worlds they are then followed by large businesses / individuals who are acting as a support network for the military.
And given more time they are followed by businesses / individuals who are establishing colonies for their Houses upon these worlds.
Please remember all ships would be given a security detail in they get close to the Clan space. So no I will not lose it …. It would have to be taken by force!
Also of note – if the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
QUOTE: A massive migration out would screw them over. Even without the number of ships issue, the costs as well as spreading out the military to cover it all would be foolish.
Sorry No …. If migration was such a prohibitive exercise why did anyone leave Terra in the first place? There is wealth to be had within this new realm – mineral wealth – agricultural wealth – who knows what strategical advantage a House could find within the Deep Periphery – If you want to go to the extreme how about a highly advanced lost colony world that could even rival the WOB’s secret five worlds (It is after all up to the the each game master to say what will be in their Alt Universe as canon will not have any information on this)
QUOTE: Unfortunately, this is the truth of history. So that means not a single colony survived to populate the world with your definition.
Making a comparison about a colony from the 1600’s and that of the 2100’s and beyond is again apples and oranges ….. think it through …. With the manufacture of ships that can service thousands of people – thousands will be transferred to a colony together with all the necessary equipment.
QUOTE: You think that will feed that amount of people for two years?
Yes and beyond that. – Gyroscope …..
QUOTE: They ran into more then a few populated worlds before getting to the edge of the IS.
What is the probability you would find human life in the Deep periphery? ….. Extremely remote at best ….. and yes sitting around doing nothing ……as for modular buildings … you might find that a more stable building is required … especially when they are used for ammunition.
QUOTE: Must really be stupid to have all those ships locked into position to keep the network up and running.
How else did the clans establish a HPG network? On planet – how long would this take – and if the IS forces got even one they have effectively cut the call until it is fixed – from a security standpoint wouldn’t it be better to have them on board a ship where they could move when required to do so to ensure the security of the call?
Where in the Canon writings does it say they have a command circuit between the IS and Clan space in place and up and running?
Ok what does this mean ….
Purpose is the key here.
First off, there is no end of deep periphery, with the exception of the edge of the galaxy. Second. There is no reason to have logistical supply lines heading out to where no one is at. Well not all at once. As humanity pushes out, then suppliers would form in a location to serve those looking at the area. I guess history proves this concept wrong, so it is invalid for making a point against the vision.
History repeats itself, but the warning isn't complete. More then a few know the issues of not knowing the past, but still do so, as they will not make the same mistakes. Comprehension of the past is the problem. I won't do this or that, but end up doing the same damned thing. Sometimes in a different way, but the same thing.
As I have no idea what you are attempting to say here …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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the IS would send colony ships into the Clan Invasion Corridor?
Wow. You figured out the most colonies are not sponsored by houses, but are private, small groups. No organized government doing so. No churches. Just mom and pop with a few friends looking for freedom from oppression from the IS. They do it all around the IS, not just the clan invasion corridor, Suggesting sending 20-40,000 is a sure bet the clans will do something if it is found. A 5 mile long ship will be taken or destroyed, no questions asked.
Yes they are very expensive initial cost, however when you factor in their lifespan they would more than make up for the initial cost.
A ship that would cost over a trillion c-bills will not make up for the cost of it. It is far cheaper to hire or even buy a jumpship with several dropships, and all the fuel you need to do the grand tour of the IS. And then you would have access to those ships and use them to hire out to make money.
Supposition … Logistical chains and the support elements attached to them can vary – have a look at the WW2 supply fleets from America to England. Though I would believe all supply fleets would be assigned with either a dedicated warship or vengeance dropship – aerospace fighters with Alamo 5Kt missiles.
So the IS has all these ships to leave around hundreds of planets, but yet no ships to colonize with. Get your answer straight.
And more funny, they all join up with Victor and Omi without any questions. Logic fault.
And given more time they are followed by businesses / individuals who are establishing colonies for their Houses upon these worlds.
Please remember all ships would be given a security detail in they get close to the Clan space. So no I will not lose it …. It would have to be taken by force!
The problem with the alt is a lack of time to build up colonies from even 3050.
Now second part of this. I didn't say the clans wouldn't take it by force. You will lose them. Simple opening up airlocks by force and allowing the air to escape, while the air tight elementals sit and laugh.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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Also of note – if the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
They could, if they could over come the clans forces, which normally included elementals. But the issues is numbers. One squad or even platoon of IS infantry isn't equal to a star of elementals. They may not, even if the elementals don't have their armor on. So unless you have a huge military force on a civilian dropship, it is highly unlikely it would happen.
Also of note – if the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
Seen information that it requires 2 1/2 acres of food to keep a person fed for a month 20,000 people for 2 years as you keep saying. And this isn't including what the animals would be eating. With that, 640 square acres in a square mile. And with the ranching lands, as well as water reserves and such. Nope. Won't support that many for even a few months, and that is IF the food is almost ready to harvest. Storing it isn't likely to work for this large number without multiple cargo ships.
If migration was such a prohibitive exercise why did anyone leave Terra in the first place?
Back to the initial colonization, not the houses moving people out. Get your timeframes straight. The initial colonizing from Terra was not government supported, and especially once they realized they could not control such an aggressive expansion.
Now. IF the taking of the periphery was actually that beneficial, then the states would have done it far before the clans got there. But that is the paradox. Those worlds they found close to home were not even good for the most part. So they were not anxious to go out further. Why? Because those worlds were just as bad for resources, but were even more difficult, as house military could not defend them well. Which is why the houses didn't sponsor such a push.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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Making a comparison about a colony from the 1600’s and that of the 2100’s and beyond is again apples and oranges ….. think it through
Then why the hell are you doing so? History is only important when you think it supports you? Not at all.
Do you think when they go to colonize the moon, they will have thousands of people landing in the first few days?
Why would you think this is different in the future? Oh. Because without it, the alt fails. So just like the accusations against canon, the logic doesn't hold up, yet still trying to push it.
There is wealth to be had within this new realm – mineral wealth – agricultural wealth
Comparing your vision with others, as nothing it supporting this, except your word. Supposition? Assumption?
Again. If there was, then the houses would have already been doing so long before the clans invaded.
Where in the Canon writings does it say they have a command circuit between the IS and Clan space in place and up and running?
You said it. The HPG circuit is ship based according to you. So you take a ship with an HPG and start the movement of the others to speed up ships heading in or out. Simple logic here.
How quickly can the military get up coms and such in a new location? They have quick assembly units that can be done in less then a week. Oh wait. A fully stocked and running repair depot isn't more of an issue then a HPG that is basically built, just needs a little assembly at the host area.
As for taking one, they did. Holding it for any real length of time is the problem. But then the super soldiers can single handedly beat an elemental in their armor with one punch.
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ghostrider
08/17/19 07:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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First off, there is no end of deep periphery, with the exception of the edge of the galaxy. Second. There is no reason to have logistical supply lines heading out to where no one is at. Well not all at once. As humanity pushes out, then suppliers would form in a location to serve those looking at the area. I guess history proves this concept wrong, so it is invalid for making a point against the vision.
No one would build a resupply depot in the middle of no where. Someone started a colony in an area that had access to multiple other locations people wanted to be at. THEN the suppliers would head there. Not just decide to start a world and hope others would come along to buy their supplies.
History repeats itself, but the warning isn't complete. More then a few know the issues of not knowing the past, but still do so, as they will not make the same mistakes. Comprehension of the past is the problem. I won't do this or that, but end up doing the same damned thing. Sometimes in a different way, but the same thing.
As I have no idea what you are attempting to say here …..
Of course not. The saying if you don't learn from the past, you are doomed to make the same mistakes, is only partially true. Others see the past, and think they can do it differently. They didn't comprehend the whole meaning of it. Nuking a world only does one thing. Kills all and destroys the world from being useful to anyone. So dropping one huge bomb, or multiples of smaller ones do the same thing. Different approaches, but the same end results. But someone just KNEW they wouldn't repeat that mistake, and yet did so in a different way.
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Requiem
08/18/19 06:10 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: the IS would send colony ships into the Clan Invasion Corridor?
Wow it’s amazing this is looked at from such a limited perspective and a narrow time frame as to when the colonization would occur. Why would a House or an individual group establish a colony whilst in the midst of a combat operations area? Once the area has been secured, militarily, that is another matter.
Also, if the Clans did attack wouldn’t the SLDF then defend them or retaliate.
QUOTE: A ship that would cost over a trillion c-bills will not make up for the cost of it
How did you get that figure? If you don’t like what I am suggesting them why haven’t you suggested a smaller cost affective ship at can transport, say 5,000 people and have a reduced sized internal grav. Deck – so if you want 20,000 people you have four of these ships?
The whole idea is creating a ship that can transport a large quantity of people / animals etc and cargo to establish a “proper” colony in the far future in a safe and orderly manner.
As it has been clearly demonstrated that the canon Jump and Drop Ships are quite incapable of performing this task of establishing a colony or the transport of any animals for any period of time within a zero G setting. The idea of conducting multiple burns to simulate gravity whist the battery is being charged cannot be considered to be effective.
QUOTE: So the IS has all these ships to leave around hundreds of planets, but yet no ships to colonize with. Get your answer straight.
Again, there are no figures whatsoever as to the number of ships the IS has at any period of time – this is just your assumption!
QUOTE: And more funny, they all join up with Victor and Omi without any questions. Logic fault.
Consider the American war of independence as an example – would the native Americans join with the rebel American congress or would they remain with the British … this is the similarities between the two time lines , still a logic fault?
QUOTE: The problem with the alt is a lack of time to build up colonies from even 3050.
Establishing a mass colony by approx.. 3080 is a lack of time? Sorry I am not convinced.
QUOTE: Simple opening up airlocks by force and allowing the air to escape, while the air tight elementals sit and laugh.
Errr …. Lack of understanding of ship design – ships have multiple doors all throughout the ship that can be closed at a moment’s notice to seal off a small area that has been open to the void – So they might get through one door – but they will then have to get through the next – and by then the SLDF marines, within their power armour, will be counter attacking, not to mention the internal hidden gun emplacements within the corridors will begin to open up on them.
So yes they might get in but they will soon find themselves within a kill box.
QUOTE: f the Clans can take a IS Jump-ship why can’t the IS take a Clan Jump-ship during any time of the invasion? Hypocrisy to criticize!
They could, if they could over come the clans forces, which normally included elementals. But the issues is numbers.
Beg to differ …. Canon – Steiner using orphans to place charges in space – one person one large charge upon the engine – you now have a paperweight floating in space!
QUOTE: Food stores
If as you state food takes so much area – what about a normal warship?
And more importantly what about Kerensky’s 2 year exodus to Clan Space – he had people in the millions to feed – what about that then – even given the number of ships he has there is no way the cargo holds can carry enough food for all these people?
My ship - remember the size of the cargo holds I was contemplating- plus the amount of cargo that can also be stored within any attached Drop Ships. So again I ascertain there will be enough food.
QUOTE: Back to the initial colonization, not the houses moving people out. Get your timeframes straight.
Please start reading from the start again – Looking at Colonization from the following points
1. 2100’s – start of the colonization from Terra onwards;
2. Kerensky’s exodus colonization; and
3. Post Clans being kicked out of the IS – Colonization of the Deep Periphery to the establishment of Omika / Victor’s new realm.
Initial Comonization was via the Countries of the time – Then years latter people / The Church / Industries or a mix there of began to establish their own colonies.
QUOTE: If the taking of the periphery was actually that beneficial, then the states would have done it far before the clans got there. But that is the paradox.
Sorry no, succession wars – no political will all the resources that could do are being diverted to the prosecution of the war.
It is only with the establishment of the Star League and the removal of the Clans from the IS can it be contemplated at this time.
QUOTE: those worlds were just as bad for resources, but were even more difficult, as house military could not defend them well. Which is why the houses didn't sponsor such a push.
Supposition.
QUOTE: Do you think when they go to colonize the moon, they will have thousands of people landing in the first few days?
It comes down the ships being used and the means of getting the people into orbit – one building all the way into space (a space elevator as it were) where a large ship has been manufactured – a colony ship just lands on the moon (you don’t have to build the colony on the moon) – then yes you could do it!
QUOTE: You said it. The HPG circuit is ship based according to you.
Sorry no I didn’t … comprehension reading again …. Placing a ship in a fixed spot along the “exodus road” so that they can send / receive transmissions so that the IS and Clan Space can talk to one another – Remember how they voted in the second il-Khan post Wolf / Falcon War?
Creating a supply base to supply the military as they advance –then followed by colonists – then followed by the rule of law – then followed by a declaration of independence – then followed by a new empire.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 01:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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Also, if the Clans did attack wouldn’t the SLDF then defend them or retaliate.
In the canon line? Not before they took out the jaguars. But then they would not colonize that area. Military bases is another story.
How did you get that figure? If you don’t like what I am suggesting them why haven’t you suggested a smaller cost affective ship at can transport, say 5,000 people and have a reduced sized internal grav.
The ship would be larger then a pair of warships. The fact the first one would be the costliest, and no buyers for it would mean their would not be a second. Making the entire ship except engines, fighter hangers and such rotate is another issue. Then the kicker. Where do you get the engines to move this?
As for suggesting other ships, it has been done repeatedly. You just don't like it, as it doesn't require bagging on canon or getting rules changed.
to establish a “proper” colony in the far future in a safe and orderly manner.
A proper colony is one that survived. The one you are pushing for would be the economic and military powerhouse. Given the houses limited ability to repair their own lands, this is not going to be happening more then depots. So only a very few would be done.
Again, there are no figures whatsoever as to the number of ships the IS has at any period of time – this is just your assumption!
Go reread your posts about the clan invasion. Trying to justify your numbers with the canon numbers was being done there, and you said your alt had the ships. And then the update, where the successor wars were not so devastating, so more ships and industries survived. Or did you forget that whole thread?
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ghostrider
08/18/19 01:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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would the native Americans join with the rebel American congress or would they remain with the British
You don't seem to know history that well. Native Americans were not with the British to being with. Though some of the tribes helped the Americans, but for the most part, they stayed out of it. Also, the native Americans were that. Natives. Not some colonists from the home nation.So apples and oranges
And there were a lot of British sympathizers that helped the British in the independence war.
Establishing a mass colony by approx.. 3080 is a lack of time? Sorry I am not convinced.
One colony isn't a problem, as you would be forcing people to go there. Several hundred worlds with the industrial base of something other then the CC? 30 years? The IS couldn't rebuild their industrial bases in that time. And don't try the alt bs. This is logic using canon information.
You can not argue canon is wrong with your made up numbers, as the developers had their own. They had their own, they were following.
1. 2100’s – start of the colonization from Terra onwards;
2. Kerensky’s exodus colonization; and
3. Post Clans being kicked out of the IS – Colonization of the Deep Periphery to the establishment of Omika / Victor’s new realm.
First two are canon. They thing you say it completely screwed up. And since the developers are consistently bringing out 'lost' units, there could very well be something to deal with it. But then again, small colonies grew as more people headed out.
The last isn't logical. It is just like the Jihad. Some low number no bodies, became the next boogie man. At least WOB had established resources and the HPG network to make a go of it. They had the units to begin with, and could make a load more quickly. Their tech as well as research labs was their. And the Jihad was completely stupid as to the threat they proposed. So you are going to try that horrible line with the new realm? And you say this fixes holes in canon?
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ghostrider
08/18/19 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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Initial Comonization was via the Countries of the time – Then years latter people / The Church / Industries or a mix there of began to establish their own colonies.
The discovery of the Americas was done by an explorer that got government backing, but it was the traders that were pushing for this, not the countries. They were looking for a shorter route the China to trade with them. The Traders started colonies by putting up trading posts so incoming ships wouldn't have to search for the hunters wares, nor try to sell them things after finding them. Then towns grew up around it. Most colonists were not country organized, they were small groups that fled Europe to get away from prosecution.
Now if you are talking the alt, there is no number basis printed, so there is no way to suggest that is the way it has to be.
Sorry no, succession wars – no political will all the resources that could do are being diverted to the prosecution of the war.
It is only with the establishment of the Star League and the removal of the Clans from the IS can it be contemplated at this time.
Actually, there was more then a few times that there was no active war. Most of the time frame before 3029 was one of them. And again. This sounds like nations sponsoring the push. And to restate the counter. The houses didn't fix their own worlds, even though they had the resources and reason to do so. Some, deep in their own territories. The big push from the Helm core had them start doing so.
QUOTE: those worlds were just as bad for resources, but were even more difficult, as house military could not defend them well. Which is why the houses didn't sponsor such a push.
Supposition.
Maybe reading some of the information about pirates in that area would show the facts. But that goes against your alt, so won't happen.
QUOTE: You said it. The HPG circuit is ship based according to you.
Sorry no I didn’t
They had land based facilities for the second vote. But you didn't read the rest of that statement. A ship with an HPG could load up a few dropships, and jump to the first location. Since that ship would have a fully charge jump core, it would act as a command circuit all the way to the IS. But some how this part of the statement was missed.
There is no where in canon that said the entire HPG link was ship borne.
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Requiem
08/18/19 07:29 PM
1.158.134.157
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QUOTE: In the canon line?
In the Canon line this didn’t occur – thus we are within my Alt. History
Thus rather than attacking just one clan it is a broad frontal assault – mass terrorist attacks upon clan held worlds - mass attacks upon their Jump Ship transport units – whilst their rear logistical support units come under assault all at the same time.
Thus they are forced to retreat or face annihilation one world at a time – and over time they are forced to retreat all the way back through the Deep Periphery.
QUOTE: The ship would be larger than a pair of warships.
So? – for a house rule modify the construction rules to allow multiple engines (two, three or four) attached to one ship –most ships have multiple engines working together - and saying no one would buy it, this is a bit of an exaggeration based upon your own opinion.
QUOTE: A proper colony is one that survived. The one you are pushing for would be the economic and military powerhouse.
40,000 people are in no way an economic and military powerhouse – it is just a large town.
This will be how colonies will be formed in the future – mass migration.
In the past the limiting factor was the number of people that could be placed on a wooden ship – the food – the medical supplies and the weather.
In the future the limiting factor again would only be the size of the ship available to ensure the safe travel of the crew and their animals.
In an era where warships are being produced building a comparable civilian vessel has always occurred so why would they not be created in the future? Sorry but I have yet to read any reason other than economic – and it has yet to be explained how animals can be transported in large numbers to effective create a viable herd utilizing Drop Ship technology – there must be a ship that has never been introduced to allow this as caged transport will not work (again I recommend you to have a look at this online) there must be some kind of free range grav. deck approach when it comes to the transportation of animals. So if the cannon will to provide one the fans must!
Side note – Mercenary contact – Western setting – riding security detail to get the herd to the spaceport transfer them to another planet and then take them to the new cattle ranch.
How can this be done safely given the limited technology within the canon setting?
QUOTE: Or did you forget that whole thread?
Of course not - this is just your assumption as to the level of damage and what is and what is not there. I for one want to have them there so the story can proceed ……
QUOTE: native Americans
You do realise that native American can also be interpreted as the former British colonists who had children of their own and these decedents are the ones who are rising up against the English? Apples and apples ….
QUOTE: Establishing a mass colony by approx.. 3080 is a lack of time?
The ability to create mass colonies are based upon the following factors – technology, people and ships available – how many new ‘Mech desins being produced do we see post clan invasion / compared with the number of new designs prior to the clan invasion – this is evidence enough the IS was mass producing industries – if the people within the age of the Stare League can create 100 new ‘Mech / vehicle lines why can’t the Star League create mass industries for approximately 100 worlds – sorry I don’t see the problem.
Economic development of virgin worlds would entice the majority of all major corporations into this investment – and where they go the people will go with them.
Again the Star League is not forcing people to go into the Deep Periphery!
QUOTE: You cannot argue canon is wrong with your made up numbers, as the developers had their own.
Then what are they? There is only an approximation that can be gleamed due to the 4th SW – however even that is not an exact figure as when the Helm Memory core was opened you could have thought this would have led to the creation of new merchantman ships – not just warships.
So how many could have been made within 30-40 years throughout the entire IS whist simultaneously creating new warships.
And who is to say new ship yards are also being created with the assistance of the new Star League – thus production numbers go up again
As is this not one of the governments duties – civil /military construction? Just because the writers within the canon forgot this, together with almost everything else, doesn’t mean I have to.
QUOTE: small colonies grew as more people headed out.
A starting colony of 40,000 is small when you factor into it the technology available!
QUOTE: And you say this fixes holes in canon?
As far as I am concerned …. Yes.
QUOTE: The discovery of the Americas was done by an explorer that got government backing,
Sorry the Vikings got there first.
QUOTE: There was more than a few times that there was no active war.
True, and yet where were the majority of the people looking – at the border with their enemy expecting a new succession war to start any day.
It is not until the expulsion of the Clans do you see the peoples vision shift to that of the Deep Periphery and the possibilities that lie out there – hence the migration.
QUOTE: Maybe reading some of the information about pirates in that area would show the facts. But that goes against your alt, so won't happen.
And for every known world within the IS it is estimated that there is 1,000 unexplored worlds – so can anyone say, on the balance of probability, there are not new worlds to be found that will provide a liveable environment?
QUOTE: They had land based facilities for the second vote.
Page number and book please!
Question whilst the ship was able to be a command circuit what happens to the HPG communications relay in the mean time? Sorry but no, the relay HPG relay would take precedence – the convoy would move itself as a convoy has how many ships in it and thus dow many dozens of Drop Ships (we can say more than the few Drop Ships the HPG ship could take if you wanted a command circuit).
QUOTE: There is no where in canon that said the entire HPG link was ship borne.
Really?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 08:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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In the Canon line this didn’t occur – thus we are within my Alt. History
Remember this from now on. The next time you say canon is wrong, I will remind you that NOTHING can be compared, as the alt is Apples to Grapefruit. So stop doing so.
Now back to the bs of knowing what the clans had, as it would not be the same as when the Dragoons had their meeting. You are using the ends to justify changes that would not be known. Attack all the clans? Yeah. With out knowing how many forces they actually have, this would be folly. But that is something you just have not conceived of. This is very much saying the outcome of WWII was wrong and they did something entirely else instead. Like Japan knowing the bomb was coming and evacuated the cities before it was dropped. Because we know now what happened, so therefore we can alter history.
for a house rule modify the construction rules to allow multiple engines
Again. You suggest canons is wrong, then change to fictitious information to try and justify your alt. And when I said the alt could do this, and the rules didn't need to be changed to fit, the answer was yes it has to change. There is no other way this can be done. Most of the thread is about this.
and saying no one would buy it, this is a bit of an exaggeration based upon your own opinion.
Yet the cost efficiency of buying such a behemoth, that could well be the biggest lemon in history has nothing to do with no one being the first to buy it. Wow. How it flip flops when you need it too.
This will be how colonies will be formed in the future – mass migration.
There is massed migration in the canon. It is not one ship, nor is it the first ship. But didn't you say that after the initial colony is built, the rest is immigration, not colonization? Get your own definitions right.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 08:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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and it has yet to be explained how animals can be transported in large numbers to effective create a viable herd utilizing Drop Ship technology
It is done the same way you move people, only the animals are more contained. Sedatives when they get to the jumpship, so they don't freak out. Much like a lot of pets get when traveling in an air plane.
And you are suggesting there is no tech to deal with this, yet it is not written anywhere that is isn't available. There are meds given to those that get sick when traveling in space. Hmmm... Hard to think they would have something for animals. Oh yeah. That destroys this complaint.
You do realise that native American can also be interpreted as the former British colonists who had children of their own and these decedents are the ones who are rising up against the English?
Really? The term native Americans deals with those that were native of the lands. Not immigrants that were nationalized or even born generations after their ancestors moved here.
The ability to create mass colonies are based upon the following factors – technology, people and ships available – how many new ‘Mech desins being produced do we see post clan invasion / compared with the number of new designs prior to the clan invasion – this is evidence enough the IS was mass producing industries – if the people within the age of the Stare League can create 100 new ‘Mech / vehicle lines why can’t the Star League create mass industries for approximately 100 worlds – sorry I don’t see the problem.
Economic development of virgin worlds would entice the majority of all major corporations into this investment – and where they go the people will go with them.
Why wouldn't the houses invest trillions of c-bills to create a realm in the periphery, when they can't rebuild their own worlds? Send all those resources out to make something that could be wiped out without any chance of saving it? So have you invested in the new mars housing yet? I hear they will be very nicely furnished.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 09:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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QUOTE: You cannot argue canon is wrong with your made up numbers, as the developers had their own.
Then what are they?
Again. Ask the developers. And I have yet to see any numbers from you. I hear there are enough ships to invade the periphery and the clans home worlds, yet you say there aren't enough to colonize the same area. And you can't figure out how the logic holes of canon are not in the alt? Maybe taking a few months off of the board and reread the entire working and compare those to canon, you might see it. Well that is if you actually do it without the rose colored glasses.
And who is to say new ship yards are also being created with the assistance of the new Star League – thus production numbers go up again
As is this not one of the governments duties – civil /military construction? Just because the writers within the canon forgot this, together with almost everything else, doesn’t mean I have to.
Economics 101. You need buyers in order to succeed with increased production. The cost of the ships limited just who could buy them. The houses were the main buyers. Not the only ones, but with the limited number of monoliths made, house Davion bought half of those made, with the other houses buying the rest. So how many commercial ventures were buying them? And you think they would lay out 100's of billions if not trillions of c-bills for this colony ship you want. Logic failure.
QUOTE: The discovery of the Americas was done by an explorer that got government backing,
Sorry the Vikings got there first.
So where were the governments pushing to find the Americas? Oh yeah. They didn't. So yet again, you answered your own complaints after the fact.
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ghostrider
08/18/19 09:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Clans established HPG stations between both end points, to keep a direct communication. These stations also were responsible of unloading the parts of the Road to the ships who did the travel. The only one of these stations known was Pivot.
Exodus Road in the wiki.
Not ships in orbit but stations. Could be space stations, as there was one in the Highlander book dealing with part of the routes, but they were NOT mobile stations.
QUOTE: There is no where in canon that said the entire HPG link was ship borne.
Really?
Then were is this information. Oh yeah. The building of stations negates this... hmmm...
And for every known world within the IS it is estimated that there is 1,000 unexplored worlds
Other then your alt, where does this information reside? There are still maps of the Rim World Republic, so most of that region was explored. It is possible, some of the destroyed worlds might be coming back to life, but again. The books suggest it is pretty barren out there. Not completely as the Oberon nation had some decent worlds.
And again. The math says that your moving animals out into the periphery in one shot would be less then a year. 1000 light years, which is clan worlds distance, it 34 jumps. 52 weeks in a year.. hmmm. I will grant that that is a straight line, and assumes there is a star you can get to, but even with figuring that in, a year is about max.
That is unless you are being stupid and taking a the entire colony while exploring for a place to set down.
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Requiem
08/18/19 09:47 PM
1.158.134.157
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Quote: Attack all the clans? Yeah. With-out knowing how many forces they actually have,
Intelligence operations of house units are more sophisticated than the BS you are alluding to …
First – Black Boxes would have been distributed widely throughout the FC – given the level of antipathy ComStar has for both FS / LC
Second – Retreating forces would have been debriefed i.e. after action reports – gun cameras footage is pulled and analysed – photographic evidence / long distance shots as to invading forces fleets – understanding fleet numbers can be gathered for each Clan
Third – Historical Evidence – comparing warship pictures with historical documents regarding warships
Fourth – Partisan / Commando intelligence – snatch and grab of both Clan computer memory cards as well as Clan individuals
Fifth – defectors to the IS
Sixth – Logistical units – captured
Seventh – Wolfs Dragoon debrief as to standard formation
So, yes, given time I can reasonably say what each clan has brought with them – I can also predict their next worlds as we know their ultimate target – Terra (again from Wolfs Dragoons)
With all this information the Intelligence Corp should have recognised early on …
1. Post Turtle Bay – Nuclear weapons will be utilised against all warships from then on – that is unless the Clans request a change to the Ares Rules of War
2. The Clans reliance on Jump ship transport – remove that and they would be stuck
3. An understanding of the idea of Sikos and a brief understanding as to the numbers they could possibly produce – Loss Depletion Report here should have indicated that the clans can’t survive attrition warfare – change in tactics say from the end of the year of peace (The Phony War)
This is all a natural progression as the level of information increases over time.
Quote: for a house rule modify the construction rules to allow multiple engines
HOUSE RULES
Quote: Purchase
Just because in your game you say it is a lemon does not mean me and others will adopt them with our game.
I have yet to read any alternate method that makes any sense as to the mass migration /colonization as written.
Quote: It is done the same way you move people, only the animals are more contained. Sedatives when they get to the jump ship, so they don't freak out. Much like a lot of pets get when traveling in an air plane.
Does this mean all animals will be kept in a permanent state of sedation and within a box all the time during the journey – Kerensky’s exodus took two years? What about even for a short trip of one month? - Sorry but again this does not make any sense when transporting animals – sedatives on take-off and landing yes I could see that – but for the remainder of the journey – sorry no at all.
Quote: Send all those resources out to make something that could be wiped out without any chance of saving it
Again they are being protected not only by house units – they are also being protected by the SLDF. What I am suggesting does make sense – Loss forgone theory – ego of the house lord – making strategical as well as tactical sense to create this buffer state – projected win-fall for corporations – new land for civilians to purchase cheaply
Plus if we go back to the reason Battletech does anything – with the introduction of this new realm it will create wars in the future.
Consider their position
Vs. The Exiled Clans
Vs. FRR, DC, FC, Bears, and even possibly the Cats
Given a long term view would it not be aim of the game developers to establish a large number of new states along the Exodus Road so that more wars can be fought not only in the IS and Clan Space – but within all these future realms?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/19 02:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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Time to end this bs.
In your words.
Your alt is crap as it doesn't conform to mine.
It is that simple idea is why understanding of anything is impossible on your end.
Intelligence operations of house units are more sophisticated than the BS you are alluding to …
Remember this from now on. The next time you say canon is wrong, I will remind you that NOTHING can be compared, as the alt is Apples to Grapefruit. So stop doing so.
I have yet to read any alternate method that makes any sense as to the mass migration /colonization as written.
Refusal to accept that which doesn't fit your vision.
Last time I say this.
I will remind you that NOTHING can be compared with canon, as the alt is Apples to Grapefruit. So stop doing so.
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Cray
08/19/19 06:31 PM
97.101.136.19
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Well, on that note, it's time to end this thread. Don't pick up the topic for a while, folks.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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