NathanKell
12/07/01 07:39 PM
24.44.238.206
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OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was my impression:
The [Bob's] thesis is this: that a force of vehicles, properly designed and employed (neither of which FASA may be said to do) are more effective than an equal force of mechs.
Further, equality seems to be determined by tonnage.
Because of the nature of argument, the "burden of proof," if you will, falls to those who disagree.
Because Karagin does not agree, he has challenged Bob to a duel, his [Karagin's] aim being to disprove the [above] theory.
Since this is supposed to be a "fair fight" a third party, namely me, has been asked to create a map agreeable to both parties.
Because of the nature of the arguement, the more slanted external conditions (i.e. terrain, ruleset, etc.) are against a party which triumphs, the greater.
For Karagin this would presumably be winning an even-cost (c-bills) fight on a map entirely composed of Depth 1 Water.
For Bob this would presumably be an even-numbers fight on a map composed entirely of heavy woods.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/07/01 08:52 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>It is balance, it reflect any battlefield on terran like planet,<<<
Sure, if the whole planet is like the Seattle Area. You've never been to my hometown, have you?
Try finding a Heavy Woods within 50 miles of there...Or anywhere in Arizona, for that matter.
>>>So what is going to be Bob?<<<
Considering that you're just going to be an ass about it?
We don't play. You have forfeited your challenge and my assertion stands.
Who's next?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/08/01 08:08 AM
63.173.170.8
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I never said I forfitted Bob so stop with your crap.
And by the way so you can b---- some more the skills on both side, just to be fair and keep things under control are 4 gunnery 5 piloting/driving.
And the terrain is comman for the rest of the US, sorry you live in urban area, the rest of us happen to still have trees around outside of a park.
And so will please come back down to the ground with us mere mortals and let's get this ove with or is that asking to much???
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/08/01 02:03 PM
63.173.170.118
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The point is still there the terrain picked is roughly 60% of what you would find on a planet similar to this one.
It's not my fault Bob had to have custom vehicles to prove his point, if he had gone with FASA mechs and vehicles he could have picked the terrain...so his complaining is childish and pointless.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/08/01 03:18 PM
24.44.238.206
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First: your "[this is] roughly 60% of what you would find on [any terrestial] planet..." describes water, not rolling hills and forests. In fact, this sort of "normal" terrain is common only to places with a goodly amount of rainfall, a relatively high water table, and just the right amount of sun.
It is common, but not noticeably moreso than other common types (i.e., desert, plains, hilly, etc.). It's just that we, as humans, tend to like live in such environments so it seems more common.
Second: "It's not my fault Bob had to have custom vehicles." Neither is it his. It's FASA's--[nearly all] their designs stink, plain and simple. If you read above, it is clear that the idea of well-designed (and therefore custom) vehicles are integral to Bob's thesis.
One more time: his thesis is not that any vehicles will win against any mechs. That's not what he's arguing. His thesis is, was, and will continue to be that well-designed vehicles are better than well-designed mechs.
Bob is simply pointing out that, in order to test the thesis (which you are intent on doing, since you disagree with it) the terrain must be fair to both parties (and their forces' abilities).
So...you want terrain that's 60% of any terrestial planet.
How's a map of all depth-1 water sound?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:17 PM
134.121.144.40
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'Scuse me. 60% of the terrain you'll find on an earth-type planet is OCEAN!
Much of the rest is barren desert and tundra. HEAVY woods is actually quite rare.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:19 PM
134.121.144.40
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Depth 1?
More like Depth 600 and we need rules for Battlemech crush depth.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:20 PM
134.121.144.40
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It's not the standard Locust.
It's a variant Locust.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/09/01 09:59 AM
63.23.174.223
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Heavy woods is rare??? Funny not in the part of he US I live and 60% of terrain on most continets is woods.
Or are you know geology major as well as know it all?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/09/01 10:04 AM
63.23.174.223
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Nathan his theory was about vehicles beating mechs because they are better based on what he feels is their strengths.
That is the bottom line.
The 60% is what is actually found on the land masses...if Bob can't fight in the terrain picked then it proves his theory doesn't hold water because if was the case then the terrain type would not matter now would it?
If his so called BETTER vehicles can beat mechs then why is so worried about the terrain?
It's time for him to put up or admit his theory is BS and post that on the boards so all can see and we move on to something else. He either does that or we have this battle and then deciced who is right and who is wrong. Till then he is blowing hot air and that is it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/10/01 04:59 PM
134.121.144.40
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HEAVY WOODS IS RARE.
Most woods are light woods, and woods are, themselves, rare.
Take a look at Earth's largest continent, Antarctica. How many trees do you see there?
Now, let's try North America. Yeah. Some good wooded terrain, but also MASSIVE SWATHS OF DESERT, PLAINS, AND TUNDRA.
That argument is nonsensical and simply WILL NOT HOLD WATER.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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damourc
12/10/01 08:53 PM
24.214.45.179
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Bob & Brother ('ah ain'ta gonna try to spell your handle!), speaking as a biologist with an extensive interest in military history and the effects of terrain thereon, you are incorrect. Bob, in your last message you say "HEAVY WOODS IS RARE. Most woods are light woods, and woods are, themselves, rare. Take a look at Earth's largest continent, Antarctica. How many trees do you see there? Now, let's try North America. Yeah. Some good wooded terrain, but also MASSIVE SWATHS OF DESERT, PLAINS, AND TUNDRA." Using the terrain definitions found in BMR on page 11 most of worlds forests would be heavy woods, not light. Antarctica is NOT the largest continent, Asia is. (Or Eurasia if you are one of the folks, like me, that thinks that Europe and Asia are one continent, not two. And, a silly aside, Antarctica was very heavily forested a few million years ago, so there!)
Moving on to North America, while a large percentage (I don't have figures at hand, I'll try to get them for a future posting) are desert/plain/tundra, there are significant portions of deserts & planis that would be "light woods" (Joshua Tree National Monument for example) in BT terms and some that would be "heavy woods" (Cochise National Forest). Also, virtually anywhere that you have a watercourse in the desert or plains you will find woods. Just south of the tundra you will find Tiaga ecosystem. One huge honking "heavy woods" that stretches across North America (and Eurasia I might add!). Finally, I do not believe that you comprehend just how radically humanity has altered the landscape. Prior to the arrival of europeans, virtually the entire US east of the Mississippi River was forested. I can well believe that more than 60% (a number thrown out by someone else in another post) of the surface of the land (given the fact that water covers approximately 72% of the "Earth's" surface I used the term "land") was forest. Given the fact that in the BT universe most planets are not as densly populated as the Earth is now, it is unreasonable to say "heavy woods are rare."
Gentlemen, I usually like to read your postings, and I find Bob's .sig file/disclaimer amusing and that it covers a multitude of opinions. However, he did not use it in his last post and having read this thread I felt the need to point out your mis-aprehensions (sp?) as well as accuse you of being a bit mule-headed on this issue!
Thank you for your time and attention. I sincerely look forward to thought provoking counter points (or inspired insults! :-)).
Chris
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:42 PM
205.231.94.136
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Right again you know everything.
The map stands with the extra trees and we will see if your ideas for vehicles is correct or not.
So how about you stop running off at the mouth and get ready for this. Don't want you whinning about losing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:45 PM
205.231.94.136
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But you see none of this is important, save only to Bob, who is upset over the map choices...if he had gone with book mechs and vehicles for this then he could have picked the maps.
So it's time for Bob to shut up on things he only has a passing amount of knowledge and get ready to fight my mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:46 PM
205.231.94.136
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Nope not happening...the maps were fairly picked, if Bob doesn't like them, then after this battle is done he can refight it with someone else on a map set that he wants.
You see Bob demanded custom units, so by default I got to pick the maps. So tough luck for him.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:49 PM
205.231.94.136
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Boy oh boy, supporting of Bob are we?
Nope sorry my friend, was trying to KEEP the original maps flavor and even if it was all heavy woods should not Bob's so called ideas work even then? Since he built the vehicles should they not work in ALL terrain forms?
Right I am the one trying for fair play and you are suggesting I am trying to tilt things...gee why doesn't that suprise me.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:55 PM
205.231.94.136
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Bob's theories ARE NOT supported by the combat rules and the critical hits on vehicles along with the damage chart for loctions on vehicles. When he takes of the rose colored glasses and sees this then we can all get along better.
And have you looked at a map of the Eastern US? Lots of trees, lots of Cities...lots of things IN the way...and wait look at Europe lots of trees, lots of cities lots of other things around...and those are the among the important areas of the planet...
Right forgot for your brother's theories to work we need to play on the back side of the of the original maps with their blank white hexes and such...cause that is the only thing he would have going for him.
To bad he demanded custom units...but then again his ideas won't work so using books vehicles would have proven that faster, but hey I guess whinning and crying about it get's one their way.
And as it stands, he had the option of fixing an error with his vehicles, where as I left my mechs a lone...and he fears my use of THUNDER munitions and such things like Stealth armor so much that he threaten to use VTOLs...sound more to me that his worried about losing then anything else.
The maps stands with some extra trees toss in and if he doesn't like then he can refight the battle later on with some one else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:58 PM
205.231.94.136
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Let's see, I agreed to Bob's demand that it be custom mechs, I agreed he could use whatever he wanted as far as vehicles went, I even let him fix a math error with his vehicle.
SO far Bob has been the one who has been up in arms over the maps...really the only thing I have demanded...everything else he as complained or b----ed about...so how about getting him to live with the choice as it stands with extra trees tossed in and get this over with? Or are we all enjoying listing to his complaining and half baked ideas?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
12/11/01 02:16 PM
206.152.237.32
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ok now look at EVERY OTHER planet that we know of as of today... do you see Heavy woods on Mars, venus... mercury... How about the moon, Europa, or Pluto... Even in star trek, star wars, Babilion 5(whatever) and even BattleTech. Earth is a Rarity in its amount of liquid water and in its abundance of life & trees.. (well Endor had alot of trees... but Rare doesn't mean Exclusivel)
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Karagin
12/11/01 02:18 PM
205.231.94.136
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Question...the battle is NOT being fought on a lifeless planet...so pointing out that is meaningless to this battle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/11/01 03:23 PM
24.44.238.206
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Neither is it being fought on Earth.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/11/01 03:36 PM
24.44.238.206
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Just what do you think Bob's theory is, anyway?
Because it certainly seems that you two disagree about what you're disagreeing about...
And there's very little point in arguing against something that your opponent isn't arguing for.
So I have a request:
Bob, please state, concisely and without insults, exactly what you're arguing.
Then and only then, Karagin, please state, concisely and without insults, whether you agree or disagree with that specific point.
Only then can we all figure out what environment to use.
And please remember: you can't prove a theory, only disprove it. If a theory is not disproved then it remains a theory, and open to continued testing; otherwise it's thrown out.
So, basically, if you want to disprove a theory, give it every advantage and then disprove it. If you want to leave the issue muddled, then try to create an artificial standard of "fairness." You may feel better, but you won't prove anything.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:12 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>Bob, please state, concisely and without insults, exactly what you're arguing. <<<
I have, and this is the last time.
My thesis:
A properly designed and employed force of vehicles can, under level 2 rules, defeat ANY given 'Mech force of equal tonnage.
You can clearly see where testing this thesis would require that:
1) The level 2 rules be obeyed to the letter. This means that optional rules cannot be forced on me (or on my opponent.)
2) Custom vehicles be used, and employed by a master of the technique of their use (though we can substitute me for this last.)
3) The terrain not be deliberately designed to the disadvantage of the force my opponent knows I am using. Karagin has DELIBERATELY CREATED TERRAIN THAT IS TO THE DISADVANTAGE OF HOVERCRAFT DEPENDENT ON SPEED AND LONG RANGE WEAPONRY. My mistake was in showing him my vehicles before he decided that he could select the terrain by deistic fiat.
So if Karagin is going to INSIST on a map PACKED with terrain UNENTERABLE by hovercraft and DESIGNED TO OBSTRUCT LOS, I will simply have to design a new force of vehicles.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:13 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>The map stands with the extra trees <<<
No, it doesn't.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:37 PM
134.121.144.40
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"Psychopompous" really isn't that hard to spell, just break it into its component words.
:)
Eh. No, I suppose Asia *IS* bigger. Silly me.
Antarctica is, however, a rather giant landmass with nary a tree in sight.
Personally, I'm a desert rat. I've stood on a mountain and seen for miles, and seen more dust and rock than trees. Sure, there are little clumps of them here and there, but nowhere will you see anything like a "Light Woods!"
If you travel along the banks of the Columbia River in southeastern Washington, you will find trees, but those trees are only the trees mankind has planted, and they are not nearly tall enough or thick enough to seriously obstruct the line of sight of a ten meter tall war machine.
And so I am seriously suspicious that Karagin's contention regarding 60% of Earth's landmass is (presently, at least) false. Karagin, of course, believes that 60% of Earth's surface looks more like the US East Coast (next to an ocean and backed by a mountain range) rather than the far larger inland areas (shielded from the oceans by massive mountains.
And even IF his contention is true of Earth, who's to say it holds for the majority of inhabited planets in Btech? New Avalon is RARE in being an earthlike world. Planets like Dustball and Suk II are FAR more common. Most worlds are only MARGINALLY habitable, and that only due to human intervention.
On some planets, treelike species may have yet to evolve, and might not have been brought along by human settlers.
So I would say it IS quite safe to say that where humans are, heavy woods are QUITE rare.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
12/11/01 05:07 PM
24.44.238.206
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OK.
A properly designed and employed force of vehicles can, under level 2 rules, defeat ANY given 'Mech force of equal tonnage.
Karagin:
Do you agree or disagree with this specific contention, including the above caveats? Note that this above contention specifically and only applies to well-designed vehicles. No mention of custom or stock vehicles is made, nor should there have been. The source of a well-designed vehicle does not matter and has no bearing on how to disprove the above contention.
If you do not believe that A properly designed and employed force of vehicles can, under level 2 rules, defeat ANY given 'Mech force of equal tonnage, then, if you wish to disprove this contention, you must show that even in a best-case scenario it is not true. If you show that in a middling-case (or even in, as you seem to wish, a worst-case) scenario the above contention is false you have not disproved it.
That's how disproving a theorem works.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
damourc
12/11/01 05:25 PM
24.214.45.179
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"That's nice, but it has very little to do with anyhting I've said on the subject... So, your inclusion of me is rather disturbing."
Hrmmnnn... You are 100% correct. I thought that you posted a message upthread that I can not find. Evidently I am hallucinating! Dain Bramage on my part. Sorry about that Chief!
Chris "dazed, tired and confused, nothing unusual" Damour
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damourc
12/11/01 06:09 PM
24.214.45.179
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No, it is not. However, for some dang reason every time I see "Psychopompous" my brain mis-processes it as "Psychomorphous", and I know it is wrong. I was actually trying to NOT be insulting. I seem to have failed miserably...
Sorry guy, there were trees along the Columbia long before man planted 'em. The BT definition of "light woods" is "...covered with sparse trees of up to 12 meters in height." Are you saying that you believe that there are not even enough trees to be "sparse"? (Serious question, not trying to be snide.) And I am not sure that Karagin's 60% figure is that far off, even with deforestation caused by man. However, I have not had the opportunity to follow up on it.
Now, I still disagree with your "where humans are, heavy woods are QUITE rare." comment, because it would depend heavily on why the humans are there. If it is an industrial area/corn field/longer dang list than I play to type you are correct. But if the primary industry is lumber/nut production/another huge honking list I believe that you are incorrect.
Further, I belive that you are correct that a commander is only going to fight on terrain of his choosing OR if he has no other choice. If you are trying to destroy a guerilla force that is holed up in mountain caves (just to pick an example at random  ) you are going to have to fight there. If you don't care if they continue to exist, you just want to keep them out of your city, you just leave them alone and set up patrols for all of the surrounding areas.
Thoughts?
Chris
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Nightmare
12/11/01 07:36 PM
194.251.240.107
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So why not fight on a completely flat, featureless map?
No woods, no hills, nothing to disturb LOS. That way
you eliminate a lot of variables from your experiment.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/11/01 08:57 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>I seem to have failed miserably... <<<
Nope. So far as I know, noone here is offended. :)
>>>Sorry guy, there were trees along the Columbia long before man planted 'em.<<<
This says nothing to my claim that in southeastern washington, even right next to the mighty Columbia, there are few naturally occuring trees. Our wild plant-life runs more towards tackweed and sagebrush than trees.
>>> Are you saying that you believe that there are not even enough trees to be "sparse"?<<
Quite frankly, yes. You will have trouble finding two trees within 30 meters of each other (outside of a city park or irrigated lawn.) Since this is the definition of a section of terrain in btech, and the term "trees" is distinctly plural...
>>>Now, I still disagree with your "where humans are, heavy woods are QUITE rare."
comment, because it would depend heavily on why the humans are there.<<<
Don't take my comments out of context like that. I was talking about the Btech universe at that point, and my contention stands.
Even today, lumberjacks are a tiny percentage of the human populace. In Battletech there are whole desert worlds to be settled.
Besides, humans and trees don't really get along. Humans like buildings and roads, both of which usually require cutting down trees (or, in the case of my favorite semi-arid desert, pulling up tackweed and importing lumber.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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