ghostrider
02/18/14 05:11 AM
24.30.128.72
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ok. setting the speed to infantry and having a unit being an infantry support unit is not one and the same. Back when tanks were being researched, this made sense.
Any unit could be used, but the pilot/driver would be the one to decide to go slow or scout, or even move from flank to flank to draw fire without making itself a target.
Most of what I have seen in the argument is retrys unit seems to be in an ambush scenario. That's ok. He is trying to bring forth a unit that he feels is a good unit for his playing group. That's ok too.
I am surprised the word munchie has not been used. No offense retry.
The large pulse lasers would work to kill 2 battle armors before they knew it was there in an ambush scenario. If you unit was moving, they should be able to know what is up, unless you are running the system the entire time. That is also assuming the enemy doesn't know about the unit.
If they do, seismic sensors as well as vibromines would say it's in the area. The infantry would also suggest it was there from their formation.
Now I will assume that the battle has never stripped the infantry support for the mech. I would also assume they never sent a hatchet wielding short range mech after you with support. This also says no one else has used any of the systems back.
But as it was said before, this is a design you use with your group. If it works, then keep using it.
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Karagin
02/18/14 06:28 AM
70.118.139.48
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He claims that the BA will never be stripped away from the mechs cause you can't strip a regiments worth of BA away from the mechs. Funny thing is artillery and other attacks will do just that and a mech with jump jets is a threat to this troting mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/18/14 12:51 PM
72.214.204.166
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The cLPL can keep plasma equipped opponents at bay due to the range advantage.
If artillery is in play the mech doesn't have much of a chance, I've said that already. Neither would any other mech.
And shame on the infantry for not taking field artillery for counter fire.
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ghostrider
02/18/14 05:37 PM
24.30.128.72
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The Clan large pulse lasers have great range, but there are a few other clan energy weapons that have better. That is not saying its a pissing game.
The big deal here is when the battle armor is neutralized. Rushing the mech would be a good option at that time. Flank it and no return physicals. Axes at this point would be very devastating. But then that could be said with alot of other mechs, like armless ones.
Artillery would be the bane to all slow moving mechs. Faster ones can outmanuever strikes, since most are lance sized. The faster the mech, the less likely of guessing where it will be when the strike hits. If they are guarding something, then it becomes the same immobile target.
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Retry
02/18/14 06:22 PM
67.239.109.174
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The Nephilidae can still kick, it's not completely helpless.
If the BA is neutralized, the Nephilidae(along with other supporting elements such as friendly self-propelled guns and ASF) have failed it's duty so it won't be much of a suprise what comes next.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/18/14 10:02 PM
172.56.16.48
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My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down.
I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark.
I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso.
If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long.
Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3.
The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/18/14 10:09 PM
172.56.16.48
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Now if you want to use the argument that you wont have just one mech that will mean I will have more than one mech also and I can use group tactics to overwhelm your mechs one at a time.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
02/18/14 10:47 PM
70.118.139.48
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It is a quad mech, it is limited in what it can to do as far as getting up from damage etc...lose a leg or two and it's not going anyplace fast. Plus Thunder LRMs and FASCAM can pin it in place.
Meanwhile the other forces in your group are dealing with infantry and vehicles and other attacks as well as enemy mechs who are not going to play tag with the BA, they are going to go after the mech, which to them is a bigger threat. You have invested a lot into this crawling 100 ton quad who has a mere two guns and some really cool high tech wonder toys that are great but cost you in that you are losing out on other weapons.
I wonder how long it would take the pulse lasers to smash through a building as found in the BT universe, with Ferro-crete and other exotic materials to plain old brick and mortar with steel frames etc...
One thing I think you are forgetting Retry, is this, yes your tactic will work ONCE, and then once the enemy has seen it and can plan for it they will come up with away to defeat it. Just as what happen in real life, so too will happen in the next game played against you in BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 12:11 AM
24.30.128.72
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Any mech can be beat with planning. As much as most would agree a 100 ton infantry support mech would not be a good idea, this mech does have advantages. It would be better if it was faster and could support an assault with the ecm and such. If it were innersphere, it would make a good c3 master carrier.
Problem with light bending paint is once you get it marred, you can see where the unit is. One thing people do not seem to use is narc beacons. This should negate anything like that besides the ecm unit.
An emp mine could take out the electronics and leg actuators, but that is true with any unit that is hit.
This mech would be better suited for infiltration behind enemy lines if it were faster. Hide the battle armor and itself from patrols as it moves. Problem is the weight vs speed.
It is a usable design, and could very well help defend an area if the enemy has no reason to suspect its there.
For the price, it would be better to use other units to match it. Maybe 3 or more instead of 1.
And if the fluff, it says they are normally deployed in 3's.
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Retry
02/19/14 01:03 AM
67.239.109.174
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A quad loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere fast.
A bipedal mech loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere. Period.
Narc wouldn't help unless the enemy has a big ECM advantage, which isn't likely given that the Nephilidae already has one of the best electronic suites possible. ECM(At least AECM) nullifies the effects of Narc Missile Beacons which is why many people prefer to use TAG for their LRM boats instead.
If we bring in mines to the equation I must mention minesweepers. Being pinned down is not much of a problem when the unit's best way to survive is to not move. Between encounters the mines can simply be disabled.
Looks like we're back on theoreticals. Again, again, again. I'm about ready to stop explaining what works when actually play-testing it.
No, it hasn't worked merely once. People have tried ignoring it and charging straight for the juicy Battle Armor or the supporting vees or the VTOLs(Which is an even bigger mistake when they're my Mirages). Often it takes a simple side stepping maneuver from the Nephilidae to block or hinder it.
Trying to go around it tends to result in little getting done. The infantry and supporting vees just go the other way, and the Nephilidae saturates the field with Pulse Laser Fire at long or extreme range.(Which for one unlucky bloke with an atlas resulted in a turn 1 headshot). This also assumes there are not more Nephilidaes around, which is a foolish assumption. Speaking of which, the ER LL doesn't have a very significant extreme range advantage at all. IIRC, extreme range is calculated by doubling the medium range. Therefore it would be 28 cLPL to 30 cERLL.
And if the damn thing manages to make it to the cities? It's over. Just put down your weapons and leave peacefully.
Which is good because often the cities are the most important part of a planet.
----
Time to nitpick donkey's arguements.
"My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down."
With Extreme Range Rules, you outrange me by 2(IIRC). And at +3 VSS +6 Extreme Range +1 likely prone quad in one of the worst case scenarios adding up to a +10 you won't hit at all, not just not having much of a chance.
"I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark."
And the elementals(among other armor) hide behind the Nephilidae like they are supposed to do and you can't get to them without going around, which just doesn't help your case as I already have shown. You can try to go through as well, but that's certainly suicide.
"I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso."
You deal 3 and a half points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with your MPL. It's not rounded. For halves you cross out half a circle of an armor point. So that is going to take 1 more than 4.
"If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long."
Many, many turns that require you to not get killed by my comrades. And that's if I want to react to your flanking threat. I don't have to and may not necessarily want to.
"Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3."
That assumes you don't make a mistake or can avoid me simply moving backwards or side stepping a bit and mule kicking you in the knee. Assuming I bother to break position in my heavy woods prone or my hill I'm hull downed in and move at all. The Nephilidae is really durable and if there's anyone behind it I can depend on them to remove the flanker.
I love it when people try to lecture me and end up getting their beginning statement wrong. 2 is walking. There is no running speed on this mech; the hardened armor removes the 1 running MP it would have had. There is a sprinting speed of 3 with an extra rule though, so technically it can turn on a dime to present you it's front arc. It won't be able to shoot but it buys the mech much needed time for it's aircraft/infantry/tanks/whatever to bail it out. And then this is all dependant that the terrain happens to work out in your favor to work at all, even without supporting assets.
If you are assuming they are all somehow dead,
1.It's a strategy failure on the commander's fault of keeping the escortees alive, not the nephilidae
2.Nothing short of a dropship would make it out alive in the first place, not like the Nephilidae is special for dying in such a circumstance.
"The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL."
It'll have to be from 29 or 30 WITH NO INTERVENING TERRAIN with extreme range rules which I always use. Even without them, the NO INTERVENING TERRAIN part is very very very very VERY important. That's the thing with trying to disprove the design with theoretical situations, they seem to be limited to test tube environments.
Which, as mentioned before but apparently discarded, I have tested them without such a test tub environment and they are not quite the crap you make them out to be at all.
Edited by Retry (02/19/14 01:15 AM)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/19/14 02:37 AM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
A quad loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere fast.
A bipedal mech loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere. Period.
Narc wouldn't help unless the enemy has a big ECM advantage, which isn't likely given that the Nephilidae already has one of the best electronic suites possible. ECM(At least AECM) nullifies the effects of Narc Missile Beacons which is why many people prefer to use TAG for their LRM boats instead.
If we bring in mines to the equation I must mention minesweepers. Being pinned down is not much of a problem when the unit's best way to survive is to not move. Between encounters the mines can simply be disabled.
Looks like we're back on theoreticals. Again, again, again. I'm about ready to stop explaining what works when actually play-testing it.
No, it hasn't worked merely once. People have tried ignoring it and charging straight for the juicy Battle Armor or the supporting vees or the VTOLs(Which is an even bigger mistake when they're my Mirages). Often it takes a simple side stepping maneuver from the Nephilidae to block or hinder it.
Trying to go around it tends to result in little getting done. The infantry and supporting vees just go the other way, and the Nephilidae saturates the field with Pulse Laser Fire at long or extreme range.(Which for one unlucky bloke with an atlas resulted in a turn 1 headshot). This also assumes there are not more Nephilidaes around, which is a foolish assumption. Speaking of which, the ER LL doesn't have a very significant extreme range advantage at all. IIRC, extreme range is calculated by doubling the medium range. Therefore it would be 28 cLPL to 30 cERLL.
And if the damn thing manages to make it to the cities? It's over. Just put down your weapons and leave peacefully.
Which is good because often the cities are the most important part of a planet.
----
Time to nitpick donkey's arguements.
"My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down."
With Extreme Range Rules, you outrange me by 2(IIRC). And at +3 VSS +6 Extreme Range +1 likely prone quad in one of the worst case scenarios adding up to a +10 you won't hit at all, not just not having much of a chance.
"I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark."
And the elementals(among other armor) hide behind the Nephilidae like they are supposed to do and you can't get to them without going around, which just doesn't help your case as I already have shown. You can try to go through as well, but that's certainly suicide.
"I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso."
You deal 3 and a half points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with your MPL. It's not rounded. For halves you cross out half a circle of an armor point. So that is going to take 1 more than 4.
"If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long."
Many, many turns that require you to not get killed by my comrades. And that's if I want to react to your flanking threat. I don't have to and may not necessarily want to.
"Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3."
That assumes you don't make a mistake or can avoid me simply moving backwards or side stepping a bit and mule kicking you in the knee. Assuming I bother to break position in my heavy woods prone or my hill I'm hull downed in and move at all. The Nephilidae is really durable and if there's anyone behind it I can depend on them to remove the flanker.
I love it when people try to lecture me and end up getting their beginning statement wrong. 2 is walking. There is no running speed on this mech; the hardened armor removes the 1 running MP it would have had. There is a sprinting speed of 3 with an extra rule though, so technically it can turn on a dime to present you it's front arc. It won't be able to shoot but it buys the mech much needed time for it's aircraft/infantry/tanks/whatever to bail it out. And then this is all dependant that the terrain happens to work out in your favor to work at all, even without supporting assets.
If you are assuming they are all somehow dead,
1.It's a strategy failure on the commander's fault of keeping the escortees alive, not the nephilidae
2.Nothing short of a dropship would make it out alive in the first place, not like the Nephilidae is special for dying in such a circumstance.
"The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL."
It'll have to be from 29 or 30 WITH NO INTERVENING TERRAIN with extreme range rules which I always use. Even without them, the NO INTERVENING TERRAIN part is very very very very VERY important. That's the thing with trying to disprove the design with theoretical situations, they seem to be limited to test tube environments.
Which, as mentioned before but apparently discarded, I have tested them without such a test tub environment and they are not quite the crap you make them out to be at all.
I think Karagin really hit the nail on the head earlier with his reference to the Infantry Square of the Napoleonic Wars (see also Phalanx: Ancient Greece, or even Tercio: Thirty Years' War). These slow-moving, strongly defensive formations typically ruled the battlefield until such time as adequate field artillery could be brought to bear against them. And other things being equal, I maintain that artillery coupled with a more mobile force (to dodge conpeting artillery) is the best force to counter this. There are many points to consider:
If the enemy has sufficient artillery, he can tear you apart. If not, he could be in trouble.
If the enemy has sufficient ECCM, he can tear you apart. If not, he could be in trouble.
If the enemy takes advantage of your massive investment in defensive technology to overwhelm your accompanying forced with sheer obliterating firepower, he can tear you apart. If his Intel and tactical skills are not up to the task, he could be in trouble.
Here's the question that's been bugging me though...aside from being as close to indestructible as a 'Mech can get, and providing light (for a ClanTech 100-tonner) supporting fire, what wonderful things does this do to assist your Battlearmour? I'm not familiar enough with ECM rules to see it myself.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/19/14 06:44 AM
70.118.139.48
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Wow Retry you have answers for everything. I would really like to play against you face to face and see if your tactical ideas would work since no in their right mind is going to charge head long into a fight and not have forces to take on the BA and the mechs. No one with an ounce of understanding tactics would anyway.
The point you clearly missed, a biped loses an arm, i can still prop it self up and get back up from a fall. Lose a leg it can still prop itself up and fire it's weapons to a point. A quad isn't going to do all that and your mech doesn't even have jump jets. Yet again another problem that prevents it from doing much in a city or close quarters terrain.
Based off your comments I can see you don't understand flanking, flanking is moving around something and hitting in an area it's not ready. But as you said your super support mech can side step and stop such things when in all reality of the game, it can't. For one it's not fast enough to stop anything from flanking the force, and two it has limited weapons. And three it is as you keep preaching tied to the battlearmor it is supporting. So it has to turn to do torso facings, which limits' weapons firing and a smart player will use that time again to beat it.
Sure the mech can kick, big deal. No one is going to get that close to it. Yes it has Clan Pulse weapons again big deal. Those are dealt with by staying at medium to long range and using things like LRMs etc...to whittle away at your crawling mech. And NO the battlearmor won't be that big of an issue since my own infantry/battlearmor/vehicles and artillery etc will and can deal with. Since unlike some of the folks or is the bots on MegaMek, you play against, I would not go tromping into a city without the forces needed to at least win or if that fails, hurt your side to point that you are forces to retreat to prevent a rout.
I will stick my points against your infantry support mechs:
1. Too slow to react to anything
2. Quad is limited vs a biped
3. Too heavy to be effective
4. To costly to be effective
5. A lighter mech to medium mech would be better for this and allow for a dual role or better still a set of vehicles would be much better.
6. The high tech wonder toys can be countered by other wonder toys.
7. Familiarity takes the edge away from your toys and grand idea.
8. Artillery will separate your BA from the mechs as will terrain.
9. Limited weapon load out prevents this mech from fully supporting the battlearmor
10. Lack of jump jets further hinders the mech ability to be supportive of it's charges.
I am sure you will have counter points to all of these and tell us again how great your mechs is. My question now becomes have you play tested this against actual people ON THE TABLE TOP or solely through MegaMek?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 07:06 AM
172.56.9.17
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Quote:
If it were innersphere, it would make a good c3 master carrier.
No it would not because it is not permitted to use C3 at all.
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Time to nitpick donkey's arguements.
Quote:
"My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down."
With Extreme Range Rules, you outrange me by 2(IIRC). And at +3 VSS +6 Extreme Range +1 likely prone quad in one of the worst case scenarios adding up to a +10 you won't hit at all, not just not having much of a chance.
Both players would have to agree to extreme range rules and I would not. There goes that idea out the window.
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Quote:
"I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark."
And the elementals(among other armor) hide behind the Nephilidae like they are supposed to do and you can't get to them without going around, which just doesn't help your case as I already have shown. You can try to go through as well, but that's certainly suicide.
On that case I would snipe your mech until it was out of action. then take care of the infantry.
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"I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso."
You deal 3 and a half points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with your MPL. It's not rounded. For halves you cross out half a circle of an armor point. So that is going to take 1 more than 4.
You cant make up your own rules, hardened armor rounds fractions up there is no taking half a point of damage.
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Quote:
"If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long."
Many, many turns that require you to not get killed by my comrades. And that's if I want to react to your flanking threat. I don't have to and may not necessarily want to.
Ignoring a threat is suicide. I could use flanking to attack your other units if I consider them of any threat.
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Quote:
"Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3."
That assumes you don't make a mistake or can avoid me simply moving backwards or side stepping a bit and mule kicking you in the knee. Assuming I bother to break position in my heavy woods prone or my hill I'm hull downed in and move at all. The Nephilidae is really durable and if there's anyone behind it I can depend on them to remove the flanker.
That assumes that you have woods to hide in. I still could just call in a report of your mech and infantry and wait for artillery support to arrive do deal with your slow mech. Or if your somewhere that can be ignored I could just move on to the next target and let others know of your position. In a planetary scale war your of little threat because you just cant get anywhere unless your going to take days to travel to the next town over. Your only option of movement is by drop ship and no navy is going to be willing to risk an extremely valuable dropship on one reinforced lance/star. And if they do my aerospace fighters can try to down your dropship.
Quote:
I love it when people try to lecture me and end up getting their beginning statement wrong. 2 is walking. There is no running speed on this mech; the hardened armor removes the 1 running MP it would have had. There is a sprinting speed of 3 with an extra rule though, so technically it can turn on a dime to present you it's front arc. It won't be able to shoot but it buys the mech much needed time for it's aircraft/infantry/tanks/whatever to bail it out. And then this is all dependant that the terrain happens to work out in your favor to work at all, even without supporting assets.
Check the rules again when there are two options the worse case is always in affect. So when you move 2 your running.
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If you are assuming they are all somehow dead,
1.It's a strategy failure on the commander's fault of keeping the escortees alive, not the nephilidae
2.Nothing short of a dropship would make it out alive in the first place, not like the Nephilidae is special for dying in such a circumstance.
Man I would love you to be my enemy!!! Your willing to let major assets like a battlemech to be destroyed for something of little to no strategic or tactical value as infantry.
Now if you where under my command I would most likely have you either shot for gross incompetence or demoted to a privet where you would not be a threat to my war plans by getting units destroyed for no strategic gain.
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Quote:
"The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL."
It'll have to be from 29 or 30 WITH NO INTERVENING TERRAIN with extreme range rules which I always use. Even without them, the NO INTERVENING TERRAIN part is very very very very VERY important. That's the thing with trying to disprove the design with theoretical situations, they seem to be limited to test tube environments.
Again your assuming that I would permit you to use extreme range rules. I would not! Optional rules are just that where all players must agree to them or they are not used.
A design that is VERY limited in its useful role when taken out of its specialized environment is of little value.
I can just bypass your unit and worry about it some other day. Or just defeat the rest of your army and just wait for your unit to be ordered to surrender.
Quote:
Which, as mentioned before but apparently discarded, I have tested them without such a test tub environment and they are not quite the crap you make them out to be at all.
Oh I am sure you tested it where you had all of your required special requirements where your design held all the advantages.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/19/14 01:01 PM
24.30.128.72
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I can see this mech is mislabled for what it does. It is not infantry support, but has infantry supporting it. It is a slow assault mech with a good ecm package.
From what it sounds like, retry has a rtc based around the mech. If someone tries to bring in a lance of mechs against this, I can see why they tend to fail.
Yes, artillery would do wonders to remove armor off the mech and remove it's helpers.
Fighter strikes would do the same. Firebombing it would do the same.
That could be said with alot of units.
I get the feeling he faces mechs only when playing. Playing with battle armor and slow units bogs down the game before you get into combat range. It is interesting that he says he headcapped an atlas on turn one. I'm guessing his unit was ambushing it. Or they played on a single board.
Now the difference between a sprint and a run is what? This is abusing the can always move on hex rule. Until this mech I have not heard of sprinting outside of masc rules. If there is not run, then 2 is your max move period.
It is a electronic warfare machine.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 03:01 PM
172.56.17.210
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You are not kidding when you say SLOW assault. The defender would have days from its first spotted until it gets anywhere near its target. Even with all the electronic counter measures in the galaxy you cant hide the dust cloud that a combined arms company creates when its moving. And how slow this thing moves you will have a good long warning of its coming.
The only place I can see this thing of any constructive use is in city fighting where the other force will not use air strikes or artillery do to not wanting to destroy the city in the proses of destroying the mech and its infantry.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 03:10 PM
72.214.204.166
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No, it supports the infantry with AECM coverage and BHPs plus a light weapon load useful for many situations.
Sprinting is an alternative option, kind of like MASC, but you cannot fire at all, enemies targeting you get a slight TH bonus, and PSRs become more brutal.
The enemy often has BA but not as many as me, normally.
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Retry
02/19/14 03:16 PM
72.214.204.166
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Hardened Armor
R&D Start Date: 3045 (Federated Commonwealth), 3057 (Clan Ghost Bear)
Prototype design and Production: 3047 (Federated Commonwealth), 3061 (Clan Ghost Bear)
Hardened Armor uses thicker, overlapping plates to enhance a unit’s protection at the cost of flexibility. Though hardly a novel concept, production-quality Hardened Armor that consistently enhances protection and minimizes its negative effect on unit mobility remains an elusive goal for most Inner Sphere manufacturers.
Game Rules
Rules Level: Experimental
Available To: BM, IM, CV
Tech Base (ratings): Both (D/X-X-F)
Game Rules
Each point of Hardened Armor can sustain two points of damage. To reflect this, when marking damage offon a location protected by this
armor type, draw a single slash through the armor bubble for the first point of damage sustained, and a second slash, making an "X" (or block the armor
bubble out entirely) after the second point (at which point any remaining damage affects the internal structure normally, unless any special rules apply).
So what's that you were saying about making up my own rules again?
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ghostrider
02/19/14 06:11 PM
24.30.128.72
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Didn't say you were making them up. I said I have not heard of the ones you referred to.
I don't remember if the thunder missile is in the mechcommander game only, but that is something that would cause havoc with units as well.
I have noticed a lack of jump infantry when saying this is an infantry support unit. I know elemental armor can move 3, but not sure about other forms of battle armor.
Since jump infantry is, well, infantry, and this unit can not keep up with them, the support portion of it is in question, but that's a definition problem, not a problem with using the mech as such.
I had not seen the hardened armor before the clans came, which makes me think this is a new attempt to balance the game out. When did they introduce the reinforced internal structure? or the cloaking device?
And for those who are in touch with the game designers... When will they have full shield or forcefields to defend the units?
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Retry
02/19/14 06:22 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
You cant make up your own rules, hardened armor rounds fractions up there is no taking half a point of damage.
I was referring to this post of Donkey's actually.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 06:31 PM
172.56.17.210
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That is not the rule in Maximum tech for hardened armor. In Maximum tech it said all damage is rounded up to a hole number of armor that is damaged. Also I saw nothing new here on the wiki to state anything has changed.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 06:34 PM
67.239.109.174
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A bit dated eh?
You may need more substance than that when you accuse me of making up my own rules.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 06:39 PM
24.30.128.72
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from what I can see the first 2 points are absorbed by the hardened armor, then it takes damage normally.
Now if that is the whole definition for the hardened armor, then it leave the question, is that per hit, per volley, or for the whole game?
I can see both sides of this one. It could be per hit, with the next weapon starting out with 2 points going to the first damage, but then how would you tell 2 medium lasers hitting the same area vs a single large laser or ppc hit?
If this is per damage cluster like lrms hitting it, then you have issues there as well. I'm sure if you only do one point, it counts as 1 armor plate, and not 1/2 of one. Having the lrms split into groups of 5, if two or more groups hit the same location, does it restart the damage of 2 points for the first armor point?
I would also think it does not hold the 1/2 armor plate for the next hit.
This is where people can argue what is the correct version.
I would say honestly, that if you have one type of ecm/stealth system on a vehicle, a second kind would not function, unless stated otherwise. But that is my take of it. Others will use house rules to solve issues that come up like this.
The Mech itself works. I dislike some of the wider interpretations of the rules, but each player uses what they want, and leaves out what they don't like.
Just like the hvac.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 06:48 PM
172.56.17.210
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Retry as I have told others if you want to buy me every battletech book out there so I am up on all of the current rules your more than free to do so. As for my self I have dumped WAY to much money into game books already.
Ghostrider hardened armor absorbs two points of damage for each armor point lost.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 06:52 PM
67.239.109.174
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No, hardened armor halves all damage from any weapon source. A hit that would deal 2 damage would take off 1 "armor point". A hit that would deal 200 damage would deal 100 "armor points". A hit of 5 results in 2 armor points being crossed out and another one half crossed out.
Otherwise it would be a heavier not-as-cool Ferro-Lamellor armor, and I would use that instead and use the spare tonnage to do something else with it.
Technically no, it can't use the Nova CEWs with the other stuff active. But it's in a safer place than the other 2 systems so it's there as backup. That and you can use it's C3 effect with the VSS off, and only with it off.
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Retry
02/19/14 06:58 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Retry as I have told others if you want to buy me every battletech book out there so I am up on all of the current rules your more than free to do so. As for my self I have dumped WAY to much money into game books already.
Ghostrider hardened armor absorbs two points of damage for each armor point lost.
If you aren't even going to browse around the internet through the Mech Factory site to see what the armors and equipment do I suggest you not cry liar.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 07:54 PM
172.56.17.210
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Oh yea like I will wast months looking up some out of the way website for something of little importance to see if there was some minor change.
Also you don't have a good track record for getting things right. You have made claims that you could not prove in the rules.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 08:07 PM
67.239.109.174
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Right, a website on the first page is sooo obscure.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 08:45 PM
24.30.128.72
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I guess retry's group plays with spys and such. Having a mech like this listed as an infantry support mech would mean people would have the wrong idea of what they are facing.
Now with the back up ecm systems, I would think it would have been better to upgrade elsewhere instead of having the dual systems. Speed is nice, but it isn't THAT big of a deal. The annihilator mech is a 2/3. Granted the higher top end speed and shoot is nice. Depending on if you drop the ecm for a round, you could put on a tag to call in artillery including arrow IV. Maybe some other weapons.
Since you say they are normally deployed in 3's, this would actually make more sense having varients that do have other things. Simply upgrading to an erppc or even a gauss rifle works. Lrms fitted with the tag missles could indirect fire things.
I don't know if clans have c3's be even using that while having other mechs in the system using their stuff to help hide the one spotting.
A version that provides anti air. The infantry support seems to be the hang up on it.
Just some suggestions.
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Karagin
02/19/14 10:38 PM
70.118.139.48
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The website IS NOT OFFICIAL. Retry just as your sole source of BT aka MegaMek IS NOT OFFICIAL either. I am starting to think Retry ONLY plays via MegaMek and the mostly against the computer. But that is a guess.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/19/14 11:01 PM
67.239.109.174
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Megamek, but not against the CPU.
I am starting to think Karagin has a feeling of superiority that he plays offline on boards with other people face to face. But that is just a guess.
Of course it's easier for you to say "not official" than to realize regardless it is correct as it is taking it's information from an official source. Yes, I did check an PDF copy of the rulebook anyways.
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