Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:27 PM
134.121.144.40
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....of the uselessness of BVs. Take a gander at these two designs....compare effectiveness...then compare BV. :)
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Munchmaster
Tech: Clan / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 90 tons
Chassis: Standard
Power Plant: 360 XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
26 Flamers
3 Large Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Munchmaster
Mass: 90 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 138 pts Standard 0 9.00
Engine: 360 XL 10 16.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 15 Double [30] 2 5.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LT)
Gyro: 4 4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt.: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 279 pts Standard 0 17.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 29 44
Center Torso (Rear): 14
L/R Side Torso: 19 28/28
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 15 30/30
L/R Leg: 19 38/38
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
6 Flamers RA 18 6 3.00
6 Flamers LA 18 6 3.00
1 Large Pulse Laser RT 10 2 6.00
4 Flamers RT 12 4 2.00
1 Large Pulse Laser LT 10 2 6.00
5 Flamers LT 15 5 2.50
1 Large Pulse Laser CT 10 2 6.00
1 Flamer HD 3 1 .50
2 Flamers LL 6 2 1.00
2 Flamers RL 6 2 1.00
1 Targeting Computer RT 4 4.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 108 73 90.00
Crits & Tons Left: 5 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 22,069,260 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,275
Cost per BV: 17,309.22
Weapon Value: 1,656 / 1,656 (Ratio = 1.30 / 1.30)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 30; MRDmg = 29; LRDmg = 21
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 7/5
Damage PB/M/L: 3/1/1, Overheat: 4
Class: MA; Point Value: 13
BattleMech Technical Readout
INSUFFICIENT AMMO
Type/Model: Useless
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 275 Core Tek XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: 5 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
2 Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Useless
Mass: 55 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 91 pts Endo Steel 14 3.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 4 LA, 4 RA, 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine: 275 XL 12 8.00
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 88 pts Standard 0 5.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 18 11
Center Torso (Rear): 4
L/R Side Torso: 13 9/9
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 3/3
L/R Arm: 9 8/8
L/R Leg: 13 12/12
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle RT 1 7 15.00
1 Gauss Rifle LT 1 7 15.00
5 Standard Jump Jets: 5 2.50
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 2 70 55.00
Crits & Tons Left: 8 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 10,144,956 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,634
Cost per BV: 6,208.66
Weapon Value: 812 / 812 (Ratio = .50 / .50)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 28; MRDmg = 22; LRDmg = 14
BattleForce2: MP: 5J, Armor/Structure: 2/2
Damage PB/M/L: 3/2/2, Overheat: 0
Class: MM; Point Value: 16
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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LordChaos
12/09/01 12:35 AM
216.161.102.167
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That would have made sense....
if it wasn't for the fact that the second mech has no bloody ammo!
makes one look at BVs in a whole new light...
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Bob_Richter
12/09/01 01:03 AM
134.121.144.40
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I call it the "useless" for a reason.
Even then, there's NO way it could beat the Pulse/Targeting beast above it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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LordChaos
12/09/01 01:23 AM
216.161.102.167
|
If it had even a ton of ammo, it could... GRs outrange LPLs... even clan LPLs.
Mind you, it would be about a easy as riding a basketball down the side of Mt. Everest... but technicaly doable...
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Cray
12/09/01 08:09 AM
12.78.130.97
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I wouldn't call BVs useless based on these two posts. They exaggerate problems in BV calculations that normally don't cause too much trouble.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightmare
12/09/01 10:36 AM
194.251.240.107
|
The Clan Munchboat is not that uncommon among people who
want to win at any price though. Tournament rules makes it
quite useful, what with you getting a better pilot if you have a
mech with lower BV...That particular example is too heavy, use a smaller Omni instead. Like a Cougar or Puma with two
LPLs, a TC and flamers to drag down the BV. Remember to
constantly run full tilt while aiming at the same location every
time. A rear torso location is ideal, but if you start in front you
might have to shoot at a leg instead. Hmm I manage to take a Cougar down to BV 881 with 2xLPL + TC and 8 flamers...
That`s a 2/2 pilot/gunnery skill for me :)
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Cray
12/09/01 12:59 PM
12.78.131.93
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>The Clan Munchboat is not that uncommon among people who want to win at any price though.
Ah. I was not aware of this. The few times I use BV is for a quick comparator of mech effectiveness, never for deciding what mechs go on the battlefield.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightmare
12/10/01 01:19 AM
194.251.240.107
|
Well, this example is useful for getting a better pilot in a tournament, or just getting more mechs in a BV-based fight.
Sort of like cheating except it`s allowed by the rules :)
I usually choose a theme for a fight, such as a House Unit
or a prototype bring-and-bash. One of the funniest fights I
ever took part in was the Grand Munch Coup. Two lances
of Level 3 designs against each other. No limits on money
or BV or anything. 3/4 pilots in all mechs, blast away!
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/10/01 05:03 PM
134.121.144.40
|
>>>They exaggerate problems in BV
calculations that normally don't cause too much trouble. <<<
Ah, but they DO! I can find you several examples working just with stock FASA 'Mechs.
Well...I could. But I'm, lazy.
They're exaggerated to make a point. Since these designs are possible under standard rules and since BV simply can't deal with them, BV is ineffective.
ME
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/10/01 05:06 PM
134.121.144.40
|
>>>If it had even a ton of ammo, it could...<<<
Does the phrase "Snowball's chance in hell" mean ANYTHING at all to you?
Certainly it shouldn't have a HIGHER BV.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/10/01 05:08 PM
134.121.144.40
|
You think it's too heavy?
:(
Drat.
I like it. :)
26 Flamers is really fun every once in a while. 'Specially when they do heat.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/10/01 06:04 PM
134.121.144.40
|
Well...starts to.
If you limit it to stocks.
kinda.
but...not really.
We really need a superior ratings system that actually has a CLUE how effective things actually are by comparison to each other.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:49 PM
134.121.144.40
|
Just for you, my astute friend, the Semi-Useless:
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Semi-Useless
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 275 Core Tek XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: 5 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
2 Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Semi-Useless
Mass: 55 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 91 pts Endo Steel 14 3.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 4 LA, 5 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine: 275 XL 12 8.00
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 72 pts Standard 0 4.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 18 10
Center Torso (Rear): 3
L/R Side Torso: 13 7/7
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 2/2
L/R Arm: 9 7/7
L/R Leg: 13 9/9
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle RT 1 8 8 16.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 CT)
1 Gauss Rifle LT 1 7 15.00
5 Standard Jump Jets: 5 2.50
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 2 71 55.00
Crits & Tons Left: 7 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 10,160,456 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,667
Cost per BV: 6,095.05
Weapon Value: 714 / 714 (Ratio = .43 / .43)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 28; MRDmg = 22; LRDmg = 14
BattleForce2: MP: 5J, Armor/Structure: 2/2
Damage PB/M/L: 3/2/2, Overheat: 0
Class: MM; Point Value: 17
Feel free to take it against the Munchmaster. You WILL lose.
This thing would have to work VERY hard and get HIDEOUSLY lucky to bring it down. So why does it have a MUCH higher BV? You tell me.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
12/11/01 07:51 PM
194.251.240.107
|
Why the high BV? The Head-Chopping bonus for the
Gauss Rifles is one reason. BV is only a guideline, not
the perfect tool. Bryan Nystul said as much when he
introduced it to the MechForce people. BV wasn`t really
intended for one-on-one, but lance-vs-lance.
BV is several times better than the CV it replaced, but in some respects it still sucks.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/11/01 09:03 PM
134.121.144.40
|
>>>The Head-Chopping bonus for the
Gauss Rifles is one reason. <<<
Also the massive bonus for the incapacity to overheat, the ridiculous bonuses for jump jets, the poor accounting for armor....all of these little stupidities of BV. (personally, I think the head-chopping bonus is a crock.)
>>>BV is only a guideline, not the perfect tool.<<
It's a poor guideline, and and inadequate tool. A 'Mechs BV is a somewhat intense calculation that says nothing whatsoever about it.
In this way, it's no better than CV, and significantly worse than tonnage.
>>>BV wasn`t really
intended for one-on-one, but lance-vs-lance. <<<
Whatever you use it for, it's so flawed as to be useless. More 'Mechs will only serve to exxagerate the stupidity (to test this, compare four semi-uselesses to five Munchmasters.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Korbel
12/12/01 09:11 AM
206.152.237.32
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BV is for calculating opposing forces.. if someone takes and under ammo'd and armored mech into combat in the hope of more damage, more power to them... people have to learn on their own higher BV doesn't mean better... So what... It'll be a learning experience and a fun time for all.. slap a great gunner in there and stay out of range of the other mech... run out of ammo and charge in for the physical attack.
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Bob_Richter
12/12/01 06:03 PM
134.121.144.40
|
So....
1) Why not just use modified tonnage balance?
2) Why not just use CV's fer chrissake?
If BV can't tell you how good or bad your 'Mech is, it is USELESS for choosing opposing forces (unless you seriously want flamer-heavy 'Mechs to take over.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
12/12/01 07:15 PM
134.121.144.40
|
The problem occurs when the munchkin IS good at tactics.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
LordChaos
12/12/01 07:57 PM
216.161.102.204
|
or when someone who normaly doesn't use high cheese content mechs and still wins decided to play dirty and use one.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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SSFSX17
12/14/01 12:46 AM
209.233.16.47
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Tons: 100
Type: Biped, no mods
Tech: Clan Level 3
Engine: Fusion (19 tons)
Gyro: Heavy-Duty (6 tons)
Cockpit: Standard (3 tons)
Movement: 3/5
Heat Sinks: 11 Double
Armor: Maxed-Out Hardened Armor (38.38 tons)
Structure: Reinforced (20 tons)
Equipment: 2 Clan ER Large Pulse Lasers, one in each Arm
Cost: 15,643,000
BV: 2,388
I just don't see how useful this thing could possibly be. It's basically a walking fortress that can't move too well, and it's certainly dead meat for pretty much anything that can around it faster than it can Flip Arms. Its only hope is that its hardened armor and reinforced structure make it last long enough to take down its opponent before it gets taken down itself. And yet, it has an extremely high BV.
Lousy good-for-nothing mortals. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
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Bob_Richter
12/14/01 05:02 PM
134.121.144.40
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For a disgustingly armored assault 'Mech, it's not too bad.
It can take quite a pounding.
Against another assault 'Mech with no targeting computer, it'd pretty much have a field day (sure, it can't dish it out, but it sure can TAKE it.)
Yeah. This thing has problems, but the semi-useless is still worse. :)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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SSFSX17
12/15/01 01:39 PM
209.233.16.47
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The Useful could just walk up to it and burn it up. It doesn't even need a TC to jack up its heat.
Lousy good-for-nothing mortals. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
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NathanKell
12/15/01 07:30 PM
24.44.238.62
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err, less armor and more weapons, right?
(The HB having 8t std armor)
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Korbel
12/15/01 11:06 PM
172.149.60.64
|
So if you went up against something with alot of armor and little to no damage potential, its more of a threat than a mech with 12 ER PPCs and almost no Armor?
I think you should flip your equation.
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NathanKell
12/15/01 11:11 PM
24.44.238.62
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The lower the number, the higher the threat.
Like how an A is better than a C.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightmare
12/16/01 11:33 AM
194.251.240.105
|
So tell me, what do you choose then if most enemy units
have a balance between armor and weapons? Speed of
course, speed determines a very significant to-hit modifier.
So if there`s nothing else that catches my fancy, I`ll damn
well shoot the mech that moves slowest. Even if it is of the
Assault class, it will go down faster than something I can`t
hit with less than 11 at short range :) So my priority is all too
often just to kill whatever is easiest to hit.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/16/01 12:04 PM
134.121.144.40
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Hm.
Yes.
Well, there are indeed points in favor of that.
Honestly, Defense is a little more complicated that armor, and offense is a little more complicated than damage cap.
BV's system is actually fairly good for getting those numbers, it just does entirely the wrong thing with them. (And then there are the issue with heat sinks and jump jets...and the headchopper bonus. It's exxagerrated if not entirely ridiculous)
O*D for actual battlefield effectiveness, or so it would seem to me.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Korbel
12/17/01 02:10 PM
206.152.237.32
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ahh ok.. I missed that line... Understood...
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