Cray
01/28/05 01:38 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
And seeing how you have HMBA, why don't you just tell us if they Elements can carry similar weapons load out...it would stifle an arguement and would be far eaiser in the long run.
It seems to be generally beneficial to let you find out for yourself hence my approach of "look it up yourself." If I told you, you'd have to accept my statement, which you don't always do. But, since you asked...
No Clan BA could manage 10 LRM tubes and 120 missiles. That's 1350kg for a BA, while the minimum weight of a 2-ton assault suit is 700kg (chassis), not touching the motive system or armor.
It does seem that BAs, with their severe weapon weight discount, can carry a small launcher (up to 5 tubes) with an appreciable ammo load, but there's not the cost savings you're reporting. For example:
This is an assault quad BA with an LRM-5 launcher, 10 salvos, and 3MP (ground) at about 700,000 C-bills per suit (not counting the 200K C-bill training for each trooper):
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,13075.0.html
This is an assault BA with 1 medium laser and 2MP (ground) at about 870,000 C-bills:
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,11580.0.html
This is a 7-ton protomech with an LRM 5, 18 salvos, an ER micro laser, and 5/8/5 movement at 810,000 C-bills:
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,12582.0.html
This is another 7-ton proto with 2 LRM 2s (10 shots/e), an LRM 4 (10 shots), an ER Small laser, and 4/6/0 movement for 820,000 C-bills:
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,12580.0.html
I can look up additional examples. Suits CAN get cheaper, like this low-tech design with a medium recoiless rifle, 2MP (ground), and 5 armor points for 335,000 C-bills...
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,11118.0.html
...but the cost savings are not high compared to protomechs, a maximum of about a factor of 2. I think protomechs can be designed to outperform BA to make the cost worthwhile. Note that protomechs and BAs with similar weapon loads tend to have similar costs, while the protos have more armor and speed.
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The point is the BA can do the role of scout just as well if not as better as the protos
Aside from BA stealth armor options, how do you figure a unit as slow as battle armor can make a decent scout?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/28/05 01:40 PM
65.129.167.115
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What I would rather have is fine china, but that isn't in the cards.
I can get more done with hundreds of BA then a few a Protos.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/28/05 01:41 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Finally, coming to cost, the old saying of "If you want to do it, do it properly" will ring true here.
Er...actually, you're forgetting the conservatism streak in Clans. But, once again, I'm running into my NDA here. Just note that the Clans did not adopt protomechs en masse.
Protomechs, especially the low tech protos I posted on HMPro's forums, would be very well suited for the Periphery's and Inner Sphere's tactics, but not the Clans'.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/28/05 01:42 PM
65.129.167.115
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I have found that BAs work better as scouts then Protos and given that, I won't use or advocate Protos in the role as scouts.
Speed is important, but NOT being seen is just as important.
So that's where I stand.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:47 PM
168.209.97.34
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Well, with the Protos it is a case of "Not Being Hit" - moving at 15 hexes per turn is not exactly an easy target now, is it? Besides, they also have useful scouting/spotting equipment like active proves, which any commander should prefer over tin-encased guys with rockets strapped to their heels.
Evolve or Die
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Cray
01/28/05 01:47 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Speed is important, but NOT being seen is just as important.
Well, I'll grant IS BAs certainly have outstanding stealth options compared to Clan protomechs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/28/05 01:48 PM
65.129.167.115
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So on that note, we can agree that our ideas of what unit makes good scout differ and leave it at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:51 PM
168.209.97.34
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... All right, before we come to blows.
Evolve or Die
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Cray
01/28/05 01:57 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
So on that note, we can agree that our ideas of what unit makes good scout differ and leave it at that.
Actually, now that I think I understand you're pointing out the stealth options of BAs (yes?), I kinda agree with you. Sneaky little bastards have their place in scouting duties, if they're available.
Though Clan BAs don't have those sneak options available, I don't think, just ECM...which Clan protos can carry.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Wraith
01/28/05 02:14 PM
129.101.55.124
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Makes ya think that maybe the cost of protomechs is broken?
-Wraith
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Greyslayer
01/28/05 02:50 PM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
I have found that BAs work better as scouts then Protos and given that, I won't use or advocate Protos in the role as scouts.
How have you found this? You seem to struggle with the fundamentals of protos, have no knowledge of the prices of the units or what both sides are capable of carrying.
While protos were introduced as a mechanism to scrape in more money for fasa than any really well thought out progression of the timeline, it doesn't mean they are automatically weaker than BA in the role of scouting etc.
Quote:
Speed is important, but NOT being seen is just as important.
For the clans, importance would be on the speed. A scouting force ahead of a force that can quickly recon an area without the wasting of mech resources and be able to engage in a skirmishing capacity rather than being 'stopbutts' for long-ranged weapons (I would call elementals falling targets in this situation) would appeal to that faction's method of operation. Clan battle armour don't hide their movement, once they get to a location they can hide easy but the difference in time so could the protos anyway.
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Karagin
01/28/05 03:14 PM
65.129.164.85
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Sigh...why is it that if one has a different take on what a unit or design is good at you attack them?
To answer your question, let's see basic military tactical doctrine for staters, talking to folk WHO are scouts (ie 19D is the US Army MOS for them) and reading books on the subject as well actually using elementals in the role in games before. How about you?
Protos as written, have problems, they cost more then their BS cousins and over all NOT worth it for any Clan that is dire need of units.
And it seems since you want to point out how things should be, Clans wouldn't use scouts since they would simplely challegene any enemy to a duel and be done with it. That is if you are playing them as fully written.
So how about you stop with flame baiting, and try to add to the topic without turning it into a war? So far Cray and I have tossed our take on things round and we each put out what we think is better, and so far nothing of any kind of personal or other kind of attack has been launched till you chimed in. So please don't go down that road.
I don't think protos make good scouts mainly do to size and cost, I am more in favor of BA doing that job, leave Protos as fast attack units to exploit any holes the BAs find. Then TOGETHER the two dash behind the enemy and do what damage they can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/28/05 03:24 PM
65.129.164.85
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One unit vs 5 BAs...seems you get more for your money with the BAs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wraith
01/28/05 03:41 PM
129.101.55.124
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Ah, Karagin, Protos are cheaper by his post:
Point of Elementals: 3,500,000 C-Bills
Cost per unit: 700,000 C-Bills
Cost of one Siren with 10/15/0 movement: 636, 974 C-Bills
Cost of one Satyr with 7/11/0 movement: 662, 688 C-Bills
Each elemental is 700,000 C-bills. The point of five is 3.5 million...
-Wraith
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Karagin
01/28/05 04:24 PM
65.129.164.85
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Two protos are cheaper NOT all of them, in the long run the elementals are cheaper, because the Protos are a limited in supply and need need a different geno type then the BA.
So we have two protos that cost less then a single BA. Okay now if the logical think as pointed out would mean that the Clans should not make any more BA and go with the these two Protos. Bu they don't and again I point out, that the lack of seeing protos in MWDA means this a dead end technology that could and should have, ended up like the LAMs. Now if they ever allow Protos in to MWDA then the units were meant to be in the game.
So on a volume buying the elementals seems to win out, given that you are getting then faster and easier then the Protos. We should take into account WHICH clans have them [PROTOS] and how many factories are making the "suits".
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wraith
01/28/05 04:59 PM
129.101.55.124
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True, the cost of warriors must be accounted for. But there's no way to do so in the game... Especially since the EI will cause the proto pilots to go insane eventually (like certain people must have to have allowed Protos to be put into the game)...
-Wraith
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 05:56 PM
168.209.97.34
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Just for the record, here are all of the Proto costs: only when exceeding 700,000 C-Bills apiece are they more expensive than Elementals.
Harpy: 614,559
Siren: 636,974
Satyr: 662,688
Centaur: 727,020
Hydra: 757,927
Roc: 839,388
Gorgon: 871,902
Minotaur: 946,556
Only the first three are cheaper than BA's, but then again, only the first three are likely to be used in the scouting role.
Karagin: I really do not mean to belittle your knowledge of BattleTech, but do you know anything about these Protos at all? And please: do not use their lack of show in MWDA (which everyone seemed to hate last time I checked, so why their word should be Law now seems really odd to me...) as an excuse - it bears no relevance to the topic.
Evolve or Die
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Karagin
01/28/05 06:19 PM
65.129.165.196
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I know how to make them and how to play against them and how to use them. Beyond that the only thing else know is what I have read in the books.
So what does this, your question have any relevance on the topic as well? I take it a belittling since you are suggesting that I know nothing about the Protos. When in fact I do. So to avoid a flame war I will take you apologie and leave it at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wraith
01/28/05 06:31 PM
129.101.55.124
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I'm glad I started coming to the BT boards here, instead of just the Neveron section; much more exciting here... I still remember the Nadin/Karagin/Jonathan "Becky" Stuart/Bob Richter flame wars 
-Wraith
Edited by Wraith (01/28/05 06:32 PM)
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Cray
01/28/05 08:12 PM
24.165.245.77
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Quote:
Two protos are cheaper NOT all of them,
But a lot of them are, or nearly so. The priciest BA I've posted is still under 1 million C-bills.
Quote:
Bu they don't and again I point out, that the lack of seeing protos in MWDA means this a dead end technology that could and should have, ended up like the LAMs.
There's more protos coming out in Combat Equipment Guide, as is the explanation for why they're unpopular with the Clans. It isn't technical, it's cultural.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/29/05 01:03 AM
168.209.97.34
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Karagin, I was just curious as to how someone who claims to know everything about these Protos would persistently go on about about BA's being cheaper when, in fact, they are not always.
As for the MWDA: I also found it curious that while no-one seems to like MWDA and the way the story goes, its storyline (which also had to stand much abuse) is now suddenly good enough to be used as base/proof of your argument.
But fine, we will leave it at that.
PS: apologies work best when they come freely - not when demanded.
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
01/29/05 03:08 AM
203.214.144.82
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I dunno. I negotiated a ceasefire between Karagin and Bob, and it worked for a little while.
All of three posts, IIRC :P (Actually, I think it worked for a few weeks, but then both of them picked up their +3 Flaming Burst Greatswords of Trollslaying and went at it again.)
Nah. The Great Sarna Flamewars are, thankfully, a thing of the past.
As an aside, I already explained why we haven't seen Protos in the MW: DA setting yet.
The books concentrate on the Republic of the Sphere. In the time since Operations Bulldog and Serpent, the Lyran Alliance might have been able to get the ASF phenotype up and running (they have Clanners handy) and might be able to get EI happening. Maybe. And they have the Proto scematics.
Maybe they could have deployed a few Protos of their own. Maybe. It's not likely.
The Clans that do possess ProtoMech technology haven't appeared in the storyline, and nor are they likely to in the immediate future.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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chez
01/29/05 09:07 AM
62.173.81.122
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Is it me or are things getting a bit warm in here 
To sum up :-
Some protos are cheaper than BA some are not
Some people think that protos would be better in a scouting role than BA some people vehemently disagree.
I did discover that a proto has to take it's engine size from it's running speed
And that the pilot is a failed aerojock, but EI was never defined.
All I wanted was a little more background info on protos, logged out for 24 hours and ......WOW!!
Stay tuned for my next electronic version of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand . And yes I am fully aware that the Great Powers of 1914 would have ended up fighting sooner or later anyway.Human nature is just great isn't it
Chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Wraith
01/29/05 11:27 AM
68.67.32.114
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Pg. 188 of TRO 3060: "The technological advance that finally made the ProtoMech viable was the advent of enhanced imaging (EI).
-Wraith
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Greyslayer
01/29/05 12:41 PM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
Just for the record, here are all of the Proto costs: only when exceeding 700,000 C-Bills apiece are they more expensive than Elementals.
What are the prices of the other elemental suits fielded by the clans if I may ask? This would probably help to make a decent comparison since we are using multiple proto units to prove a point... lets see if the elemental price is consistant.
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Greyslayer
01/29/05 01:36 PM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
Sigh...why is it that if one has a different take on what a unit or design is good at you attack them?
Its not an attack if the person can prove their POV (not to prove someone else wrong but rather their POV is a valid one, both side can still disagree just accept their respective POVs) is valid rather than just an unseeing rant.
Quote:
To answer your question, let's see basic military tactical doctrine for staters, talking to folk WHO are scouts (ie 19D is the US Army MOS for them) and reading books on the subject as well actually using elementals in the role in games before. How about you?
Well if you want to bring real life into this gaming universe, fine. I served in a RECON unit in the Australian Army. Now that all that pathetic chest-beating of over, back to fiction.
I'm not the RPG expert for btech. I'm more a tourney tactical/strategic expert in the game and as such I would need far better information than what you have come up with as to how a single suit of a BA is better than a Protomech. Remember 5 protomechs make a point just like 5 battlearmours do. The one main advantage I can see of battlearmour is that they can be effective engineers, so as a commander I would not totally leave them out of a force.
Quote:
Protos as written, have problems, they cost more then their BS cousins and over all NOT worth it for any Clan that is dire need of units.
Some, as have been proven, are CHEAPER. You are yet to prove how they are 'Not worth it'. At a strategic level I can think of several ways they are less effective over a battlearmour but apart from the engineering comment above I won't be holding your hand to help you come up with more.
Quote:
And it seems since you want to point out how things should be, Clans wouldn't use scouts since they would simplely challegene any enemy to a duel and be done with it. That is if you are playing them as fully written.
I suppose that is why the Koshi has a beagle probe? The reason they 'just challenged' was that they already knew the forces they were coming up against. Later novels (which I assume you have read) indicate that they do in fact use scouts. Even in Tuk, they used light clusters to screen ahead of the main body. these were usually recon configured mechs and elementals, why? because they were not certain of the forces they were facing thus they had to scout ahead.
Quote:
So how about you stop with flame baiting, and try to add to the topic without turning it into a war? So far Cray and I have tossed our take on things round and we each put out what we think is better, and so far nothing of any kind of personal or other kind of attack has been launched till you chimed in. So please don't go down that road.
I think you just insulted all the trolls out there. I just think you have cornered yourself with poor arguments and now you are playing the victim.
Quote:
I don't think protos make good scouts mainly do to size and cost, I am more in favor of BA doing that job, leave Protos as fast attack units to exploit any holes the BAs find. Then TOGETHER the two dash behind the enemy and do what damage they can.
Elementals don't 'dash' behind enemy lines. They struggle to keep up with assault mechs, if you mean by being driven there by Dashers then my bad (lol).
Size: for the board game they are both level 1 in height.
Price: they are remarkably similar in price for their equipment. The price of the warrior may or may not prove the difference.
As for effective job, if the BA detect something they don't like, it not as though they are going to get away without a mech or vehicle picking them up. Not really that good for a scout. jammed communications would make these slow units useless for scouting since they may never be able to get a communication off. Meanwhile Protos have the speed to get away from heavy units and the firepower to hinder lighter units giving them time to raise a warning or assist in redirecting assets.
BAs are better for OP work (observation post) than protos as they are harder to detect hidden. Perhaps that is what you are meaning, after the Protos have scouted the area for enemies first of course
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Karagin
01/29/05 05:02 PM
65.132.126.68
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Taking into count the idea that the tech for Protos is limited, thus harder for the Clans to make and use as well as the geno type being less likely to there for the other Clans, as well as retraing of the pilots to run the Protos adds more to the over all cost. Meanwhile BA is cheaper, and after looking at all of the CANON Protos, only two are cheaper then a single BA, so in the long run BAs are cheaper.
For the record I never claimed, unlike some, to be the know it all about the Protos, I said I have read the rules, and what info there is on them, beyond that having used them a few times isn't making me or anyone else an expert.
But thank you for trying to say that I was, I am flattered that you feel that I know so much about them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/29/05 05:33 PM
65.132.126.68
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Greyslayer if someone doesn't agree with a POV of someone else doesn't make them wrong. You play the game how you want with what you want, and I and every one else will play as we want.
I pointed out the BAs are cheaper since they are a proven tech and unit, and that to me they make better scouts and that is where I have had better results then with Protos.
Beyond that I am not sure were the topic went south, but that is what we were talking about. Protos vs BA as scouts and recon. Beyond that the rest flame baiting and personl slams can be drop otherwise neither of us are doing anything but spinning our wheels.
Now can we go back to the topic or do you want to countine with the grade school sillyness?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
01/29/05 05:38 PM
203.214.144.167
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The other types are all fairly comparable.
Gnomes: 1,050,000 ea
Salamanders: 665,000 ea
Undines: 700,000 ea
Sylphs: 700,000 ea.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
01/29/05 05:53 PM
203.214.144.167
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Sigh.
Different units, different applications.
Battle Armour? Head hunters. Some fast, some not. Some heavily armed and armoured, some not. Some expensive, some not. Combat drop them in. Ablative armour on 'Mechs. Able to knock off lighter 'Mechs and annoy heavier ones.
Protos? Bridge the gap between BA and Light 'Mechs. Some fast, some not. Some heavily armed and armoured, some not. Some expensive, some not. Use them as you would giant Elementals.
You'd think the Clans would use their WarShips and ASFs for recon any way, but apparently that made too much sense for FASA or anyone else.
Eh.
The only Clan that's really jumped on the ProtoMech concept is Clan Blood Spirit. This Clan is unusual in that they have more men than machines. Only the very, very best warriors make it; the rest are relegated to the lower castes. Even so, hose castemen are probably better than a number of warriors from other Clans, due simply to the fact they survived the Spirit's insane training demands.
The spirits want 'Mechs, but don't have the resources. On the other hand, they have a ready supply of "failed" ASF pilots who (remembering that they're Blood Spirits) are perfectly happy to go Kamikaze and get IE implants.
The Spirits are probably the only Clan that will develop the ProtoMech concept to any form of extreme.
The other Clans regard them as interesting, but are probably likely to only toy with them, if they deploy them at all. After all, they're a bizzarre new creation, and Clan society doesn't really like that sort of thing.
As an aside, the Clans do possess the means to counter EI-induced insanity. They just choose not to bother with it, since probably only sub-par, overly zealous, or slightly deranged pilots are opting for the procedure any way. They might as well get rid of them now and take advantage of what EI has to offer in the doing.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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