Requiem
05/23/21 04:33 AM
1.158.176.232
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Tank warfare has changed … suggest you watch the following West Point lecture by Dr. Phillip Karber - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CMby_WPjk4
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/24/21 12:31 AM
70.118.172.64
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Tanks are more digital and more driven by things that are found in neurohelmets and HUDs, they are working on taking the tracking links that they use on the Apache gun system and linking that to the Tank Commander (TC) so the remote weapons platforms are able to be better used.
The main gun firing systems are linking more things to the helmets and doing more to allow the gunner to be better at what they.
Vehicles in Battletech have been nerfed since day one of the game because the focus was on the late 70s early 80s crazy for MECHA, big stompy robots trashing everything. Go watch Sun of the Fang Dougram, Robotech, etc...and you will find the vehicles don't last long, and oh wait, correct if I am wrong, but they mechs and such come from anime from the same time frame.
Get the CityTech rule book, the original one, look at the Falcon hovertank (hey here is another name reused later on for the Wolf's Dragoon Falcon mech) and they give a decent tank, yet trying using it against even the original version of the mechs and it's toast in two turns, this because of the damage to-hit location table and how unbalanced that is.
You can give vehicles everything extra and mechs still win because the damage hit tables favor the mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/24/21 07:12 AM
1.158.176.232
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As pointed out, however, during Victors final push to dethrone his sister.
Utilize a regiment of artillery and then work out how many Mechs survive – especially when it comes to fighting the Clans – how many spotters can you have over any area especially if you have created a kill box?
A point that is seriously lacking within the game especially when you consider how many should be self propelled artillery class?
Then when you use them in concert with Bombers – VTOLs – Fighter bombers etc
Then when the dust clears you send in infantry with HE to finish anything off that is prone on the ground ….
The point is clear the Mech may think it is King of the Battlefield and yet if it is caught in the open and in range of vast number of tanks it should end up a smear on the landscape! As how easy is it to manufacture a tank plant Vs a Mech plant?
Which again brings the question back to cost effectiveness of your weapon systems …… and the question of strategies and tactics within the game as well as TO&E per planet when it is invaded and how many regular forces should be included in any battle.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/21 01:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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Numbers tend to have the advantage, so regiments of tanks verses even a battalion isn't a fair comparison. Even weight can be misleading. A 20 ton mech verses a 20 ton tank will probably have the mech winning more often then not. The hit locations give the mech a better chance to survive, as the to hit numbers will be high. The tank is more likely to have ammo dependent weapons on it, so they can't just potshot all day long. Mechs can with their energy weapons, if they have medium range. Small lasers aren't going to work well for this, though can be helpful when in range.
Sorry to the person that said this, but aircraft are the game changer, as they can take down units without too much worry of accurate return fire. This is true. I think this is a big part of why they nerfed aerofighters. The shortening of the strafe has removed them from being the real threat to land based units. I don't disagree that the original strafe was overly powerful, but 5 hexes seem a bit to little.
The real life things with self propelled artillery doesn't really work in BT. The to hits screw this issue up. Then again, if it was easy to hit with artillery, then even mechs couldn't do much against forts and bunker positions. Orbital bombardments, with is basically artillery fired from orbit, would be the main way to deal with such places.
I just realized what might be causing the issue of unit skills on vehicles to some. The idea of a bunch of backwater party boys going out on the weekend to do their militia training is no where near the training of front line vehicle units. So it could very well be seen that those backwater units would be very poorly skilled verses the main line units.
This could be used for mechs as well, but a mech pilot has to be better skilled at piloting at least, otherwise they would run up huge repair bills as well as having to have recovery vehicles go out to pick up a fallen mech. Even with a neurohelmet, an poorly skilled pilot can't get a mech standing easily.
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Karagin
05/24/21 04:38 PM
70.118.172.64
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A regiment of tanks will still die facing the regiment of mechs. The mechs care MORE firepower overall and have a better spread on the damage, and that is the key.
Mechs have roughly 12 areas to apply damage to, tanks (vehicles in general) have four to six depending on vehicle type, the majority being tanks, hovertanks, and VTOLs. This is where mechs will dominate regardless of what tech the vehicle is using.
Try it, build a tank using Endo and DHS, run it against some mechs, and watch it die fast. Go look at the vehicle to hit the table, note all the little numbers next to it, then read the extra damage those add or as some will say the disadvantages, then look at the mechs, oh you took some damage to your legs no big deal you can move at half speed, oh you lost an entire torse and arm, big deal still in the fight.
Some of you keep trying to explain away things, there is nothing to explain away, the messed up with the vehicles and simply don't want to change them. Vehicles are so bad that even the attempts in the craptastic clicky tech setting failed to really give them anything since even there the focus was on the mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/24/21 06:17 PM
1.158.176.232
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regiments of tanks verses even a battalion isn't a fair comparison
This is the point, one RCT vs assaulting unit - how many vehicles are available?
And how many MCT are in the Heavy - Assault Category?
Also how many have been converted over to all energy weapons?
Also nerfing a ‘branches of the military’ because it is too powerful (Aerospace – Bombers etc) or have been restricted in their movement / firepower (Infantry) proves the game has lost the plot – this is supposed to be a military warfare!
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if it was easy to hit with artillery, then even mechs couldn't do much against forts and bunker positions. Orbital bombardments, with is basically artillery fired from orbit, would be the main way to deal with such places.
This is one of the main black holes of the game …
Science fiction game built into space warfare equals a massive number of warships (it should be a given that almost every world should have a space fortresses (from small to absolutely massive) above them – where every world can then repair jumpships to those that can also accommodate military ships. It is a space opera after all!
Restricting the games warships has only made the game worse!
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The idea of a bunch of backwater party boys going out on the weekend to do their militia training is no where near the training of front line vehicle units. So it could very well be seen that those backwater units would be very poorly skilled verses the main line units.
And how many worlds – based on population and technology level should have a very well trained and supplied military? As how easy is it to build military vehicles?
Plus how many countries Reserves are better trained than some of the worlds leading armies active soldiers? Just looking at the negatives proves nothing – must look at all the possibilities.
Twycross – Population 1.2 Billion Technological Sophistication – Advanced
Given this information they should have a massive Military Industrial complex building everything except for Mechs on massive numbers + a reserve unit that should be incredibly well trained – Population of USA 2019 is only 328 million and how many reserve and active units do they have?
So even when you are discussing Clan Galaxies and orbital bombardments I will be discussing massive number or combined arms forces + long and short range nukes + what should have been in orbit massive orbital space stations with massive weaponry.
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A regiment of tanks will still die facing the regiment of mechs.
What happens when you have a single world that should have a massive number of RCT Units (Minus the mechs) + with a massive airforce of conventional fighters + Bombers vesus a Clan Galaxy?
What happens when you send massive bombers with massive payloads over a clan LZ – how many fighters do they usually have for an air superiority battle Vs how many an inner sphere unit should have + missiles that should have been designed to take them out like the SAM?
Take Twycross – then take a comparable sized military US / Russia / China etc and work out a comparable military strength based upon population and technology – guess what unless the Clan starts using massive number of orbital bombardments it is going to get nerfed – it just does not have the military numbers to sustain a protracted war for any length of time!
This is the point – the game requires a massive overhaul or ditch the pretence that vehicles / fighters / infantry / warships etc. should even be in the game at all and only allow Mechs Vs Mechs. (and how believable is this in a space opera – warfare game?)
As for the current vehicles rules – someone really needs to overhaul them!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/24/21 06:37 PM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, let's see, if four mechs or tanks make up a lance and 12 of these make up a company, and three companies make up a battalion and three or four battalions make up a regiment, the math is easy.
It's not about the category, it's about mechs vs vehicles. Even a medium mech cares more firepower than most heavy vehicles, then add in the agility of the mech, did you recall that terrain stops vehicles? Like most can't even enter light woods and god forbid there is a stream since you need special equipment for the vehicles to cross that.
Fighters vs tanks, that will mean a lot of dead vehicles since those fighters would be aerospace they can still win mainly because they can fly back to orbit. Since the ground forces can overrun the airfield and poof dead confighters. Do note I kept this the ground units vs ground units, so your counterpoint is not even in the same realm or scope.
The idea of Wick's that tank crews are somehow undertrained or just not well trained is a wrong one to draw. No military is going to let their armor units be a total mess. Even the most third-world country will train their forces as best they can and they will have units that can perform on or close to the next nation's best. To say that the militia on WBFE is not well trained just because they don't have mechs is a sure-fire way of getting your munchkin player unit will all that cool high-tech Post-Jihad wonder weapons rear ends handed to them.
Running joke, trees start speaking Ewok you know you are in trouble.
What the game needs is the rules fine tuned, they need the vehicles revamped and on par with mechs as far as tech goes and the damage location table revamped to make things more in line of stopping the one hit one kill that only happens to mech if rare changes, where as the vehicles have 5 or more from a single yep your rolled the numbers you need to hit.
The game doesn't require a massive overhaul, it needs certain things tweaked to fix the issues. It needs to be revised to allow things to follow a better path that doesn't grossly weight things in favor one unit type over another.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/21 10:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of how many heavy/assault vehicles are in a regiment of tanks can not be answered. Every unit is different.
For some, jeeps are about the only thing the locals can afford and use, while others might well have nothing but Hunters. I would also suspect that tactics will play a part in this as well. Demolishers might well be stationed in a factory that the enemy wants to capture, so won't risk long range shots to hammer them, while a smart commander may well have Pikes and Partisans guarding a ridge, with PPC/LRM carriers in the mix. With the introduction of SL, then Clan tech, this becomes even more difficult to deal with. With good reserves, the Alacorn tank is a brute in defense with reinforced emplacements. Nice lines of fire, with plenty of scouting support. No artillery on the invaders side, it can be that a company could hold off a battalion of mechs. But then if those defenders have a skill no better then say 6 gun, then this reverses quickly.
I don't suggest that even up, tanks are even remotely equal to mechs that are the same style/weight configurations. Missile and ballistics makes tanks able to avoid overheating, but the lack of ammo tends to doom them in any fight that lasts longer then 20 or so rounds. Granted, most tanks don't seem to last that long before a crit pretty much cripples them. The larger armor ability doesn't really do much to counter the lack of areas that can be hit on the tank as well.
The game seemed to put in vehicles as a way to gain skill points to level up without having to fight other mechs when you have horrible skills.
The game wanted mechs to be king, but yet wanted to have them in short supply, so they had to have something to prevent others from just walking in and taking their possessions. So tanks were it. But they seemed to be put in as a token resistance, which goes along with their main logic, that reality and logic have no real place in the game. Other games that use robot mechs don't seem to be able to be killed in one shot like BT. But all seem to allow those robots to just wipe out large chunks of vehicles without an issue. You have a large logic hole there, as most would ask why bother wasting resources on the vehicles if they can't stop the robots? All resources should go to making something that CAN stop the robots.
The story line of the game, as well as the rules, doesn't work with real logic. An artillery regiment should be able to wipe out a square kilometer without much of an issue, depending on the ordinance used. And yet, the game makes sure you can't, otherwise people would bunker up with the artillery, making it impossible to assault the defenses. Even trying to move up artillery to fire back wouldn't work, as the spotters should see this and call down shots to destroy the enemy artillery. Tube mounted artillery on mechs would be the only real way a ground battle would have a chance. Everything else requires set up time. Some fast hover craft with the fastest of mechs might be able to clear the blast zones fast enough, but would tend to lack the firepower to stop the artillery, as any smart commander would have nice walls protecting the artillery.
Basically, the mech, the way it is set up, can't be king if ANYTHING is not nerfed to the abyss to prevent a fair shot.
As stated so many times, people want to play big stompy mechs that use physical attacks from time to time. So the game logic has to make that a reality, or people don't play.
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Requiem
05/25/21 07:31 AM
1.158.176.232
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Do note I kept this the ground units vs ground units, so your counterpoint is not even in the same realm or scope.
Please re-read Chaper 10 Sun Tzu’s The art of war. – re: Choosing your terrain.
Pick the correct terrain where a military comprises the correct vehicles for that terrain en mass and no clan force aside from combining multiple Galaxies for a sing world should be able to put up a decent fight.
Loss depletion report (sibko replacement system) + Logistical instability (6 months distant) + unable to garrison worlds effectively (trinary per world and by the 2/3rds mark no clan should have any forces left to continue the fight) = The Clans would never have been able to win the first Invasion!
Re-write please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as a cat flap in a nuclear sub makes more sense at this stage.
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The question of how many heavy/assault vehicles are in a regiment of tanks can not be answered. Every unit is different.
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The story line of the game, as well as the rules, doesn't work with real logic.
And this is the primary Black hole!
Sooner or later someone is going to come along with a game that is built upon view of realism. When that occurs how long will Battletech Last?
If Battletch wants Just Mechs they it should be written that way!
Problem is they have introduced all other military areas – so either fix it or kill it off once and for all.
So, bring in logic or Kill it off once and for all!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/25/21 10:20 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, you are trying to compare apples to oranges.We are talking about vehicles vs mechs and things that need to be either allowed or changed.
NOT Conventional fighters vs vehicles. The Confighters are just as messed up, but they have more issues than the vehicles and that requires rule changes where as vehicles don't require massive rule changes.
How about sticking to the subject and stop trying to turn this towards your pet peeves.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/25/21 12:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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The only time you get to choose your terrain is IF the enemy agrees to it. In the time Sun Tzu wrote his book, battles were not fought where armies could move and fight over miles of terrain in an hour or so. Yes, you can put up defensive units in the terrain you want to protect, but when you have to defend a specific point, like a city, you do not have the options that you would want.
You have to fight in what is there. And more then a few times, that does NOT give you an advantage. As said before, LRMs in an area with heavy forest that is widespread doesn't work well. IDF was introduced after the game was going, but without a spotter, can't be done. And to my knowledge you need special training for it, so any single person in a tank can't call for it. Now the next argument would be train everyone to be able to do so. Not feasible, as it costs. Yes, real life economics does have an impact. The game doesn't really address the IDF issue as it should. It avoids having to slow down the game in order for someone to have to stop firing to perform the duty. And simply calling out where the target is compared to you doesn't work, otherwise the artillery section is completely wrong. Also, this would mean MGs and such could kill far more infantry in the 30 meter hex. Even a mech doesn't cover the whole thing. Yes, the to hit roll can be use to simulate the problems, but this still needs to be addressed.
I can guarantee any sort of rewrite would not come out the way you want. There are some instances that logic, at our current technology, will never fit. So far PPCs and jump drives are out of our reach. Even the ability to reach the jump point in 7 days here in the Sol system is beyond us. The way the story is and goes would be different but not the way you want.
As it is part of the world today, they will continue to have to avoid discrimination as much as they can, or be sued. The CC should have died in the 4th war. I dislike the fact it remains, but this isn't because of the war, but real life politics. Oh well. I can hate it all I want, but it isn't going to change.
Another point just came to mind about the numbers of assaults in each regiment. How many regiments have remained the same after any battle? Major or small? A simple lance on lance will result in something being destroyed. SO no matter what you think is the 'perfect' unit, it will change after combat. And in the game, replacing units with the same ones is NOT likely. Atlas, Awesome 8Q, Stalkers, and such are in very limited supplies. With this, tanks are a little less rare, so you would be more likely to, but not always able to, replace the destroyed ones.
And as much as you hate it, costs are a very big thing when run logically. Planets having only a hundred million for defense, can't buy a dropship every year. Replacing not only units but fixing things like bunkers and walls is part of that. Even building new ones. That budget gets eaten up quickly without purchasing new units.
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Requiem
05/25/21 07:06 PM
1.158.176.232
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First, Clan way of fighting dictates they will attack the defending force wherever they are, thus the defending force can prearrange a good defensive position. So the Sun Tzu principles are still viable.
Thus, if the ground has been pre-arranged in advance for a clan strike – as they were moving in a straight line – it really should not have been difficult!
Second, every soldier should be trained in calling in an artillery strike. Plus given the number of Drones that should be on the Battlefield that are lined into one massive communication web calling in an artillery strike should not be that difficult.
As for cost – this training is included in basic Boot camp so really it is feasible!
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I can guarantee any sort of rewrite would not come out the way you want.
Simple logic is all I want within the game – is this soooo difficult that it cannot be included?
If you had a world of 1.2 billion how many regular forces + military industrial capabilities should be present to keep society going? It really is not that difficult to work out.
Plus how can any Clan force garrison such a world when they DO NOT have the capabilities to do so? Sorry but this is stretching the realms of what can and can’t be done to breaking point!
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The CC should have died in the 4th war. I dislike the fact it remains, but this isn't because of the war, but real life politics.
PC external to the game not internal to the game – if you write a military book and cave in to the external mob then what does this say?
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the numbers of assaults in each regiment.
For IS forces – yes this was included
For Clan forces – this was completely ignored to the point it became obvious someone was tipping the scales in the Clans favour at the expense of all reality all the way form 3050 to 3150 and beyond.
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costs are a very big thing when run logically
Where were the Clans logistics? In reality given the number of ships brought with them they should have run out of consumables as well as food and water a long way back in the invasion. Replacement Sibko personnel! Again another point that was completely ignored.
There is no way the Clans could maintain their military numbers in a full on war within the IS – Loss Depletion Report should made that clear from the start – they just do not have a system in place that could have absorbed and replaced the numbers that should have been killed off during the invasion!
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budget gets eaten up quickly without purchasing new units.
Really? How is that theory working out in ANY country? In a perfect society that looks after its people maybe this would be true – and yet how many countries allocate a massive percentage of the budget straight to military before looking at what the people require – to new hospitals, schools and infrastructure etc?
Again, all societies within the game have been at war for how many centuries – thus how well ingrained should the military industrial complex be? The answer is very well ingrained and upon every world – from basic weapons all the way up to the most advanced weapon systems available depending upon population and technological development!
The idea that the entire universe lost all of its technology due to the massive number of wars is ludicrous – it is not a plausible scenario unless EVERY world was nuked back to the stone age, and as this never occurred the point is all the technology should be there on one world or another.
This is why I have given up on the Canon version of the game – this is why I am writing my own – I can only groan or laugh at the proposition when I read the Cannon version of events as there are just too many plot holes that make absolutely no sense whatsoever form a political, military or social level.
All I ask for is a little realism and yet all I get is a 1800’s Boys own adventure book story.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/25/21 07:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans pick an area that they WANT to fight in, that is different from picking an area you know you have an advantage and due note that even when you think you are ground you know so well, the enemy will still manage to surprise you and can still defeat you.
Requiem, you seem to be trying very hard to apply Sun Tzu to everything you want to counter here, nice, but it's not the right use of that. Each player is going to run the engagements differently. They will go right when you think that they will go left because that's what they did three battles ago or that how you read the terrain, meanwhile their forces are behind you and you are stuck trying to countermarch to prevent a rout.
I have enough computer games and micro-armor games that are set up for refighting everything from battles of Ancient Rome to WW2. And I can beat the computer and other players pretty regularly because I don't play them like they think I should be. I am not going to make similar mistakes, I will make new ones, or I will make a move that keeps things so in chaos, that the AI can't predict my next move. That is what is going to happen for your examples. The Clans lands do their own bidding, then they move out, meanwhile, the other side is not going to sit there. A buddy thought I would let him move to the fight and I attacked him as he moved on to the board. He cried, but got over it and pushed his forces into the fight, it was a good game and we both saw that we can spring tricks on each other.
Really? The idea of losing technology due to a massive war is crazy...odd how history has evidence of that happening. Tribes move through and wiped out the military forces and the folks left behind take decades or longer to recover.
So moving back on topic...vehicles as written, even with adding in better IC engines (aka true turbines (or as close as you can get in the game) and allowing them to use DHS and ENDO will not alter the game to the point that mechs lose their niche role and pride of place. IT does even the playing field in that they able to be used better, but until the Hit Location Table is revamped and the locations increased, mechs will always win out because they carry more firepower, can move through terrain that vehicles can't, not without having to switch to a different vehicle class, and then they can take more damage overall and far longer than vehicles can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/21 02:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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Letting vehicles have the tech they should isn't going to stop the mechs from being kings. It will give them more of a challenge then most want to deal with. It is embarrassing to lost an atlas to a medium tank, since a lot of those that claim to be the best can't play tactics. It is brute strength.
The main thing with DHS is heat generation using energy weapons. It isn't like tanks can go up on the heat scale, nor do they survive one hit to their fusion engines. Endo is just using better materials for the frame. Just like mechs do. With the beating internals take from combat, I have suggested this might be a way to cut the weight of ICEs as well. 5 tons to hold a 100 ton mech together with it heating up and if it has jump jets, even more punishment.
So you pick an area and set up. There is NO rule saying the enemy has to enter the area the way you want. They could very well hot drop into the area, removing all chances to use the mines and sighted artillery points in the areas you think they have to move. The clans might have been slow to adapt, but they do adapt. And the entire argument falls apart when dealing with non clan forces. You want to defend that area? Fine. I will take the capital, factories, your supplies and anything else you refuse to defend because it isn't in your zone of defense. THEN I will see about taking you out. I could just siege you and starve you out. Every point of damage is something you can not replace, as I have a strangle hold on you. Yes, hidden supplies will keep you in the fight for a while, but without outside forces, you will slowly die.
Simple logic does not exist in the entire game. Even before the clans, you could not feasibly invade a lot of worlds. Their just isn't enough ships to invade another world of several billion without local support. Then garrison the hostile world and try to invade a second one. Just not possible. This is true with all scenarios in games that do so. The harsh tactics to keep a majority of them in line would be needed, and that will cause those you invade in the future to fight even harder. Die on your feet, verses living on your knee sentiment.
Simple merchandising says you have to appeal to a large crowd to survive. Caving in to outside pressure? Don't try to suggest how to make money as this suggests you would cut your nose off to spite the outside pressure. Realistically, the DC should have been reverse of the CC. There is far more people of Chinese decent then Japanese. But this also suggests that each state is solely from those countries. They aren't.
The numbers given in the books only represents a short time frame for troops. Every battle will have losses, and those numbers also include units that may well be broken down, waiting for repairs. The adventure packs are horrible for this. All units have some damage, yet if you play the scenarios the way they suggest, every combat has the mechs in the same condition for the most part. There is no fixing them between scenarios. I can understand not repairing some engine damage as you don't have the parts. But to be down armor? Yeah, that doesn't work.
I know in the U.S that the military builds things like schools and such with part of their budget. Training, replacing buildings along with building new ones and such eat into the budget. No matter what you think, countries pour money into their military and still never get what they want, or sometimes even need. You have a budget of say a billion dollars. That won't buy you certain military equipment, let alone keep what you got working. And for a lot of countries a billion dollars is more then what they have to spend on their military. So buying replacements for lost units may well have to wait a few years. It is why rifles and infantry are a big part of militaries. They are cheaper then buying a horde of jeeps.
And no. Spotter training is not cheap or standard in military units. And with that, it normally isn't infantry calling in shots with IDF in the game. It is normally other mech warriors or maybe vehicles. And even that is off, since the invention of TAG and NARCs are easier to relay information then someone calling it out. Even C3s are easier to use. This is just a cheaper version of saying all infantry should be trained in anti mech tactics.
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Karagin
05/26/21 10:16 AM
70.118.172.64
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Ghostrider, a medium tank won't drop an Atlas even with the DHS and Endo. The mech will kill the vehicle faster than it can kill the Atlas. Again unless the Damage Hit Table for vehicles is revamped and adjusted to stop the secondary effects from happening everything a side facing is hit as well as the number of facings is increased like giving the turret four facings, then the medium tank won't make it long to dropping an Atlas unless it rolls a 12 and has a weapon that cores the head.
You are correct about the budget for the military, the money goes to everything from weapons to bullets to beans to buildings, etc...it's all going to be spent to get them what they need, not what they want. One thing that the whole damn Jihad crap showed is that at the time, TPTB had no real clue about logistics and how a military would truly work. I posted pages about it and if you want to wade through the hostile comments from all sides to read about it feel free, the point is an army can't remain hidden and there will always be trails of paper that show things. Reality says that mech forces would be there but at their cost, they would be super rare and only certain worlds would have them. Now, this is a game and the fun is bashing the mechs against each other.
Infantry is cheap and will be used by all, regardless of their wonderful toys, mainly because it's cheap, even with the cost of feeding it, housing it, etc...
On spotting, we are all taught to call for fire, aka calling in indirect, the issue is for most in the military it's a one-day class to give you the basic understanding and you never use it again. And until Iraq happened that was indeed the case. Once we saw that Iraq was not going to be the warfighting that we had trained for things changed. Calling for Fire Support was adjusted, more training, and while that was good, again not everyone needed to use that skill and didn't.
Anyone with a radio and an understanding of how calling in fire support can be a spotter, the running joke, or in some cases the ideal, was One over, One under, One on Target. Things like TAG and C3 systems and the Probes do help and in some cases make it easier than waiting for PVT Snuffy to get over being scared shitless and calling in the information.
If you want to know more look up Call For Fire and you can see how the US military does it. IT's not a state secrete so it's on the Goggle and the Duck.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/21 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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Calling in artillery fire isn't the same as calling in a missile strike from a friendly unit. In 10 seconds, you have to know where you are at, where the target is, figure out coords and hope the friendly unit can figure out where to fire. If this was simple, then the game would have better chances of hitting things with their own sights. And with the LRM IDF, you don't have LOS for long most of the time. Also, Radar would be effective as well for 'spotting'. But then I can see real life not being part of the game.
But I was wrong about the military training spotting in real life. Do the vehicle drivers as well as pilots get the same training? For some reason, i get the feeling it is part of boot camp.
Also, how much of the artillery fire is directed against moving targets? I know they are used as bunker busters, but the mobile combat is the question here.
The main reason why I know part of the military budget goes to building non military things is the issues with the border wall here in the U.S. The transfer of money caused more then a few projects to have to be shelved, as the funds earmarked for them were diverted. It shocked me to hear that the military was the ones that helped fund those projects.
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Karagin
05/26/21 01:03 PM
70.118.172.64
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Six elements of a call for fire
Observer identification.
Warning order.
Target location.
Target description.
Method of engagement.
Method of fire and control.
That is what is needed, then comes the radio call, then you can adjust things if the munitions are Laser guide or if you are doing ranging fire. It doesn't take that long to call it in and yes you can spot it quickly with simple commands. So a crew or Mechwarrior can do without losing their ability to keep fighting.
Everyone is trained, the skill is not used by all of the militaries, a soldier sitting in the finance office isn't normally going to be need to use the skill and they will be rusty as hell if they have to, but we also have cards with the steps on them. Combat and Combat Support units do train in this. In my last unit, before retirement, we did drills every Thursday and Friday. Also, the Battalion would have exercise set up where oh crap the command element is taken out so SSG Snuffy is in charge, guess what he's now doing the stuff the higher-ups would have handled. Crossing training is going to happen.
For example, I am an 88M30, a transporter, which means if it has wheels I can drive and operator it, but that also means I am crossed trained other platforms like tracked vehicles, doesn't mean I am going to be an expert but I can move it out of danger. Battletech makes these wild-**** assumptions that Mechwarriors can pilot battlearmor and other things and while that is true, they won't be doing so effectively or at the same level as the crews or pilots/drivers of those platforms.
As for the budget money going to the border, first no real-world politics, second the military has extra money, if there are short falls the MIC (MIlitary Industrial Complex) is over charging for items and work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/26/21 05:24 PM
1.158.176.232
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The Clans pick an area that they WANT to fight in
Really?
Please do elucidate me – when and were did any Clansman ever sit back and wait for the enemy to come to them without rushing in?
All it takes if for the IS to do nothing on a ground favourable to them and the Clan forces will come to them!
They are after all ‘genetically bread super people’ and that fact comes with it the hinderance of having to prove this 24 / 7 and to everyone – even their own people – this comes pre-engrained from the womb to death!
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… can beat the computer ….
Ever wonder what it would be like to go up against some-one like Hanse Davion / Theodore Kurita / Takashi Kurita? They were all alive during the initial Clan Invasion and yet the response provided by their military was pitiful even when the Clains were explained to them by the Wolfs Dragoons.
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the idea of loosing technology
How many universities are their on any civilized world? - how many corporation have their own education and training departments? – and how many corporations today have multiple information backup storage sites to ensure the safety of their information? - how many militaries have online or courses with ALL the information contained within a manual? – and how wide spread is all this information?
The only way all the information is purged is if EVERY world and EVERY University and EVERY Corporation and EVERY Military on EVERY world has had their information destroyed.
And how many worlds were never touched – how many University Libraries on these worlds were never destroyed?
The plausibility of an Inner Sphere purge of Information is impossible – since many of the succession wars never touched certain worlds whose Libraries are quite intact!
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letting vehicles have the tech they should isn’t going to stop the mechs from being kings
Problem is one WW2 bomber can carry how much gravity bombs? And be at an altitude how far removed from the Clan weapons and how many Artillery platforms should be available to any IS military RCT etc ?
And how many IS units have available to conventional fighters that are an equal for aerospace fighters on the deck?
The Clans do not have aerospace numbers to obtain air superiority and if they don’t they can be bombed back into the stone-age – this is why a fully functional military that has access to more weapons systems than just utilizing only Elementals, Mechs and fighters is a dumb idea - unless the clans have access to a RCTs the game looses the plot somewhat!
As for elementals – did someone realise that if you breed them that big and put them in a huge armour you loose all hunting ability that any infantryman / hunter comes to possess.
Plus one Infantryman with one 50 cal or above sniper rifle should he able to get a single head shot.
Also if a squad is equipped with support class weapon or even a SRM with inferno rounds – one each per squad member how long should an elemental last?
And how many times have we seen where a lower-level tech soldier out wit a more advanced because they know how to use the land to engage and destroy the enemy.
Relying on technology dulls the senses!
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simple logic does not exist in the game
Then kill off all warships, vehicles and fighters etc and only allow Mechs, Elementals and Aerospace fighters …
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There is No rule saying the enemy has to enter the area the way you want
How much patience has the average clansman to sitting outside an OZ because they do not like the ground they have to fight on?
The average Clansman has how much hubris when it comes to war with the IS?
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There is far more people of Chinese decent then Japanese.
Problem is every state is massively culturally and ethnically diverse.
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There is no fixing them between scenarios. I can understand not repairing some engine damage as you don't have the parts. But to be down armour? Yeah, that doesn't work.
Problem is this should also apply to replacement personnel from Clan Sibkos – if you don’t have the replacement personnel - Yeah, that doesn't work.
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the issue is for most in the military it's a one-day class to give you the basic understanding and you never use it again
Problem is every IS state has been at war with their neighbour for how long? And how important is it for every military to be able to call in artillery support … just like it was discovered in Iraq?
Thus how important would it be to keep this training up to date for your average infantryman even those who drive the vehicles should be able to call in a strike due to necessity of the ongoing wars?
Sorry but again I stand by my assumptions
If a world has a high population and with a high technology rating then it stands to reason that that world should have a massive standing army which utilizes a massive infantry / armour / VTOL / fighters / bombers etc and that has a massive number of bunkers etc for hidden warfare due to the nature of the ongoing succession wars.
To believe otherwise is venturing into the implausibility once again.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/26/21 05:27 PM)
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Karagin
05/26/21 05:51 PM
70.118.172.64
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It was fun Requiem. You can't seem to understand that none of us interested in your version of how the game should be done or played. Your POVs all seem to one of you are right and the rest of us don't have a clue. So on that note, I am bowing out conversing with you in the future.
You are here telling me, the guy who has 30 years of military service, who did the stuff daily, that I am talking out my rear end with your comments as you question things just because you think you know more or think you have the better understanding. I will be sure to let my fellow NCOs know that a guy online is and has far more in-depth knowledge and tuned to how a military is going to be trained given that the basics won't regardless of the decade or century.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/21 06:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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There are a few times where the defending clan did indeed sit back and let the enemy come to them. Poor bidding starts it, while some commanders are just out to kill the enemy, no matter if there is any sort of batchall that is comparable or not. I doubt the Wolverines ran out to engage the enemy, as they were buying time to get their people out. They would have done everything to slow down the enemy, which means bunkering down in good defensive positions. Some areas would require a full out counter attack. But you want something more canon, like Twycross when the IS attacked the world. The enemy was pulling back, trying to reform their lines. If not for the pass and the Falcon Guard, they would have been purely defensive, trying to preserve all they could.
Real world time. How many corporations have their tech kept in public places? How many actually have it in multiple locations, especially extremely secret information that the enemy can take or destroy while being moved? KFC is a good example of this. The recipe was kept in one location to make sure others couldn't get ahold of it. Had the site been nuked, like in the 1st SW, then it would be gone. Period. It was only when the 3rd SW was going did the IS stop just destroying everything they could. And this is not even adding in Comstar doing what it could to keep tech out of the hands of the houses. And that is a bit of the problem. Terra DID have a lot of the tech, but would not allow it outside of the order. So having every last trace of it go missing is a chunk of it, but having a powerful communications facility blocking as much of it as they could helps the idea of losing in entirely.
Regeneration should have been in every hospital in the IS once it was researched. It wasn't. Simply putting things into storage, and having someone move it, elements destroying it like flooding, and even viruses being unleashed erasing data in anything that it reached all help to remove the tech.
Use the Roman technique for concrete as a guide. With all the tech today, they still can't match the concrete the Romans used as seawalls and such.
Still not getting the clue? The game has more issues in the past that isn't fixed, there is no reason to think the current and future states can be fixed without dealing with the basis. Spackle on a wall doesn't change the fact that the boards inside are broken. Quicksand base comes to mind. NOTHING can be done right without fixing it from the base up.
The existence of mechs is illogical. The room temperature fusion reactor is illogical at this time. The same engine being put in a vehicle, and has only 1 level of shielding, yet put into a mech has 3? Current day tech as surpassed the games, as a lot of it removes the ability to rely on mechs as the king of the battlefield. Drones with bombs can wipe out mechs, and not cost nearly as much as the mechs do. Part of why they are kept out of the game. The SDS is a fine example of this with drop ships and war ships. Part of the issue with modern missiles verses BT. The 2 mile range of a sidewinder, which would rip apart most aerofighters shows logic is missing, and can't be reinstalled. Only Naval weapons reach a mile or more. Funny that sensors as set up so they aren't reliable at that distance.
How many infantry learn to use mortars and never touch it in combat? When you get a call from someone that isn't your spotter to fire on a position, you tend to have to get the authorization to listen to that person. How do you know it is not an enemy with your codes? Do normal infantry have your frequency to even try? The more sophisticated things get in the military, the more convoluted it gets. You don't get to bypass the chain of command just because you want it. Given the games implications that artillery isn't as common as you would like, what makes you think everyone under the sun has a howitzer under their pillows? Ammo would be even more of an issue.
The IS used total war tactics in the first two wars. And that set up the IS for the state it was in. The discovery of the Helm Core helped reverse that, but that still does not mean everyone has everything they need. Putting out 1000 mechs a year doesn't cover the losses from all the raids and such that happen in that year. Even a quiet year, you would have enemies doing their strikes. Resources going towards mech production means the supplies are being funned AWAY from other sources. The IS was not the place of plenty.
The clans having unlimited money is the fact that the military says what goes. Civilians get the left overs. So their way of getting equipment don't exist in any other situation but theirs.
And again. The clans not having the numbers to guard a hostile world is nothing new. The formation of the DC could never have worked, as trying to take worlds and hold onto hostile ones would not have the manpower nor the equipment to move what is needed. So again, complaining about the clans and not entire history of the game shows a bias of wanting to be right.
And no. I don't think I am right on everything. I keep finding more issues I missed or something that was overlooked when I first came to some conclusions.
Solid rules that make sense first, then you can redo things to make it all fit.
The problem here is they had the middle to end being done, without having the beginning even thought out. And retcons don't do it.
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Cray
05/26/21 09:07 PM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Real world time. How many corporations have their tech kept in public places? How many actually have it in multiple locations, especially extremely secret information that the enemy can take or destroy while being moved?
Speaking as someone who works in aerospace, while we keep digital backups of even personal computers off-site and hence are technically safe from hurricanes, tornadoes, and building fires, a lot of critical information only exists in the heads of personnel. I've worked on several programs that take gut punches with each retirement.
And as new kids are hired, I find myself trying to impart lessons that aren't in our blueprints, aren't in our process specs, aren't in our work instructions, and aren't in suppliers' technical data sheets. Some vital knowledge is only in employees' heads.
If you nuked my location and wiped out the work force then the rest of the corporation could not resume production of my site's products despite having every necessary computer file and blueprint. At best, it'd be a 3 or 4-year effort to rebuild the supply chain and requalify production, getting an entirely new work force to figure out how to build these complicated systems.
This might make you wonder about how the Inner Sphere beat itself up so badly and lost so much technology when it only needs a few years to recover, but the Inner Sphere didn't stop the nukes after hitting one factory. All the factories of my employer would be primary targets in a strategic war to nuke away the war-making industrial capacity of a nation. Many of our suppliers (like the folks who build jet engines and avionics) would also have "Nuke Me" targets painted on their roofs. The avionics' suppliers like Intel and AMD and Texas Instruments would have "Nuke Me" targets painted on their microchip fabs. The jet engines' superalloy metal suppliers (only a handful in the world, easy targets!) would have "Nuke Me" targets painted on them. Our aerospace competitors would also have lots of "Nuke Me" targets painted on them.
Like ze Germans and their ball bearing plants in WW2, there are choke points of specialized, irreplaceable knowledge in the industrial supply chain that are relatively easy to target and have wide ranging effects.
The Inner Sphere prior to the Succession Wars was dominated by the Terran Hegemony, a methodical empire that was very deliberate in its efforts to learn from the Terran Alliance's mistakes. It concentrated the Inner Sphere's advanced military industry on Hegemony worlds, sparingly allowed the Houses to have a little bit of that technology, and worked hard to guarantee that the Houses couldn't fight squat without Hegemony-made equipment. Terraforming gear, water filters, and other vital systems were all built on Hegemony worlds. The supply chains for the best and shiniest equipment were concentrated in the Hegemony.
The First and Second Succession War focused on seizing those Hegemony planets and nuked them off the map when one House or another couldn't hold them. You lost all the specialist workers, factories, and their suppliers, and the survivors that settled into one House's hands after three generations of total war weren't the ones who knew how to run the factories-turned-nuclear craters.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
05/26/21 09:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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Spreading things out is great! But here is the next question, does the cost of having transport items A and B from two different worlds to world C so then that semi-finished product can move to worlds D thru J before you have the final finished product make it worth spreading everything out?
I can understand having two or three plants on three or so worlds making similar items, but I don't buy into the massive cost for a company of them having it spread all over the House's interstellar holdings either.
Real-world, in Europe you have regions like the Saar-Rhineland, TONS of factories, and other industrial companies. In England you have the Liverpool-Birmingham area, in the US you have the Detroit to Pittsburg Corridor of industry. Russia has their version etc...and as you said, Cray, the Terran's followed a similar pattern for the most part. So I don't see the Houses doing any different.
Personally, I think BT underestimates how settled and industrialized planetary systems truly would be and how much traffic that would be jumping in and out on daily basis. Think about it, you have a major weapons manufacturer as well as one making mechs in the same planetary system, the amount of support for those as well other commercial industrial setups and secondary support would be huge. The number of orbital and moon-based setups would be very high. Then the mining of the local asteroid belt alone would be an enormous presence of dropship and shuttlecraft flying around. Then the normal commercial traffic of ships bring both consumer and luxury goods, not to mention the ships bring in the needed industrial components to build the weapons and mechs, that would mean far more than we seem to be getting in the BT universe and the descriptions of the worlds and such.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
05/27/21 12:23 AM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
I do admit the updated information in the wiki does support the helm being useful for more then just balance, but it also says physical actions needed to do things in conjunction with it.
Reading a bit more after the neurohelmet question, you might need to reread how the mechs work. They do require levels and such to move the unit as well as fire. Even the fiction says things like torso twisting means turning the control sticks and such. The helm is not a control all of the mech.
I didn't say control of all, I said control of most of the finer actions, and in particular the arms. While there are paddles for leg movement and a joystick for torso twist, the canon descriptions and artwork of the cockpits provide no manipulators for arms. The neurohelmet apparently controls arm movement, including the rough aiming of weapons attached to arms (with the TTS correcting for accurate shots.)
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Also, this seems to forget they do have dual cockpits that allow two people to work a mech...
This isn't how dual cockpits work. One pilot is in control of the mech, and the other is a passenger who has access to some mech systems like the communication system, sensors, and company/battalion/regiment control systems. The passenger's piloting and gunnery skills have zero impact on performance. They are effectively a battalion or regimental commander, not a second pilot. I'm doubtful they can even take over the mech if the primary pilot is KO'd or killed (except maybe by swapping seats to sit in the pilot's chair.)
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The 5/4 mechwarrior isn't straight out of training. It is the skills that TPTB decided would be best to allow a play to actually do some killing rather then missing so much and dying. There is no fun in constantly dying as you couldn't hit the barn sitting next to you with a mech with 20 mgs. Tanks were originally meant to die to mechs, so they weren't damaged so badly when they did fight other mechs. The hero of the stories is the mech pilot. It doesn't help having the hero on death's door just after stepping out of their own home.
You're making my point. If tanks are supposed to die easily and be no match for mechs, then giving them skills such that they are competitive to mechs defeats that purpose. Sure, tanks die on critical hits all the time, but a a long range tank can take out a short ranged mech too easily if the skills are too close. The tanks are supposed to miss frequently - and they make up for it in raw numbers. The 5/4 skills is a cop out to give one tank the ability to defeat one mech. Or at least two or three tanks to defeat one mech.
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Tanks are the main forces that are dealing with far more then mechs. Infantry being even more commonly used. Mechs are the 'elite' of the game, and gain all the credit for everything. The game is slanted that way. The main garrisons and even assault units are tanks and infantry. Mechs are used for the do or die parts of any assault/defense.
I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me. Being most common doesn't mean most used. I never said tanks weren't more common. I did say mechs were most used in battle scenarios, which is true.
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... did you recall that terrain stops vehicles? Like most can't even enter light woods and god forbid there is a stream since you need special equipment for the vehicles to cross that.
But this is bad use of vehicles. Mechs are meant to be the offensive spearhead, and would cross the river first, securing a beachhead on the opposite shore before tanks cross at bridges (or bridgelayer units). If on defense, the tanks should use that stream to their advantage to slow down advancing mechs and make for easier shots. Vehicles can't do all the things mechs can do, but they also shouldn't be asked to do all the things mechs can do.
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The idea of Wick's that tank crews are somehow undertrained or just not well trained is a wrong one to draw. No military is going to let their armor units be a total mess. Even the most third-world country will train their forces as best they can and they will have units that can perform on or close to the next nation's best. To say that the militia on WBFE is not well trained just because they don't have mechs is a sure-fire way of getting your munchkin player unit will all that cool high-tech Post-Jihad wonder weapons rear ends handed to them.
But then why wouldn't they do the same with mechwarriors? You're missing the point that if a well trained tank crew can get up to 5/4 skillset, why can't a well trained mechwarrior, with the inherent advantages of a mech, get up to 4/3 or better? Your answer seems to be that the mechwarriors aren't as good as the tankers, but the technology makes up for their deficit such that the end result is an even skillset. I'm not the one saying one of the two is less well trained than the other - that's actually the point you're making. I'm saying that if both are well-trained, the mechwarrior has the advantage because of technology. The neurohelmet allows him to react faster and aim more quickly and thus should have lower piloting and gunnery skill numbers. The only way to say that both should be the same level is to claim one of two things: that the mechwarriors are not trained as well as tank crews, or that the technology is actually a hindrance. If neurohelmets were a hindrance, or of no benefit, they wouldn't be used, so you're left defending the position that mechwarriors aren't trained as well. But that would put the military as not doing their job to fully train their forces to the best of their abilities, which is exactly what you're complaining about, so you've effectively argued against your own position. (And for some reason, blamed me for it.)
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Basically, the mech, the way it is set up, can't be king if ANYTHING is not nerfed to the abyss to prevent a fair shot.
YES. That's why the 5/4 skill rating for tanks in Master Rules sucked. Tanks die easily, but such a skill rating gave them the ability to take out mechs too easily (especially at longer ranges). If tanks outnumber mechs a good 4-to-1 or better, there's no way planetary assaults would be successful, at least not without losing so many mechs that attrition would have made them virtually extinct during the Succession Wars. The entire fiction relies on each mech in an assault force being able to take out a several (half dozen perhaps?) tanks, as well as a few companies of infantry (or cow them into surrendering). If its unbalanced to the point that two or three tanks can routinely beat a mech, then the fiction is no longer believable. Ergo, the tanks should have skill ratings at least a point, if not two, below their mech counterparts. This is not meant as disrespect to the tank crews or an indication of unequal training, its meant as the shock and awe of what is supposed to be the overwhelmingly superior Battlemech.
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First, Clan way of fighting dictates they will attack the defending force wherever they are, thus the defending force can prearrange a good defensive position.
It is however considered dezgra to use terrain and static defenses to your advantage. There is no honor in things like minefields. The defender can of course choose a terrain that maximizes his units potential, but, at least in Clan vs Clan engagements, he must accept the attacker's bid to counteract such an advantage. If defender has a lot of jumping, short range units and they choose a forest, then its perfectly acceptable for the attacker to bid units with indirect fire, flamers to burn down the forest, etc. If the defender chooses a position that can not be successfully taken through normal combat, then the defender is dezgra and that's when you might see the attacker call in artillery, airstrikes, or orbital bombardment to dislodge the defender. Bidding is sort of dance where both sides want to maximize their unit's capabilities, minimize their losses, but also give the appearance to the other side that they can win without having to resort to dishonorable tactics. When the Clans resort to dishonorable methods, it is usually because they feel the opponent did not bid fairly. Sun Tzu doesn't care about honor - he cared about winning, and that means minefields, overwhelming numbers, chokepoints, etc - stuff the Clans consider disgraceful. When the IS uses these, the Clans are more brutal, unforgiving, and less interested in fair fights than they are with each other. It reinforces their belief that they are morally superior to their IS counterparts, and when they go on to defeat the IS despite those tactics, it only further fuels that belief. In truth, most of the planets hit during the Clan invasion just didn't have the means to defend themselves against such a powerful aggressor with advanced technology. Whatever they had to defend with, the Clans had enough firepower to overcome it. Only in a few places (like Wolcott) did the terrain play a significant factor in defense. Ultimately, the IS defenders could not simply hole up in canyons and mine the hell out of the entrance expecting the Clans to simply keep coming at them and die in the minefield - the Clans would instead simply blast them from orbit. If there were no way to win the battle with honor, then I'm certain the Clans would have resorted to such tactics.
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ghostrider
05/27/21 01:30 AM
45.51.181.83
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There is a good reason why some things would be spread out. Mainly comes down to where the deposits of resources needed to make the main items. For some, it is a patchwork of buying up the companies that use it. The Germanium used in jump ships being a prime example. Building Galax ship yards where the main source of it for that area is a good idea. But the parts, like the jump computers, may well be built in a system 3 jumps away. Moving it may destroy the economy there, as well as being stuck there do to the local nobles making sure it doesn't leave. I don't see a company having the blueprints for the jump core at the corporate office the deals with making the computer chips.
The joysticks that can cause the torso twist also controls the arms for firing. The Gray Death Legion books show that often enough. Even the adventure packs, as the joysticks can be rotated in order to rotate the torso accordingly.
There are also stories of the two seater battlemaster that has one person pilot while the other fires. The Red Corsair from the Falcons had that very issue shown in it. The issue in the clans is that the warriors are so arrogant, they could not work together. In a tank, it is very possible that only one person drives and shoots. The hunter would be a good example as the tank needs to face the target as it lacks a turret.
The statement that tanks are supposed to miss frequently explains the thought I was trying to get across. TPTB didn't want tanks to be anything more then a nuisance. Which is crap. Nerfing them by saying they could not use this or that tech is garbage. They could have stopped all this crap by one simple thing. Saying no fusion engine could reside in a vehicle. But the reason for the shielding was bs, and it did nothing to protect the engine or the crew. No radiation from the engine. And as said before, they take fusion engines from vehicles and they work fine in mechs. Not sure if it is just brackets to hold the engines, so there is a bit of wiggle room here.
As stated a 4 gunnery skill is the same thing no matter if it is in a mech, vehicle, aerofighter, dropship, warship, elementals suit or even normal infantry.
The game suggests a lot of mech pilots get bare minimum training with some being tossed out before they go far. A lot of the stories has someone just barely into training being better shots then those with years of experience. 5/4 mech pilots are more common then they should. A lot of green troops are out there, which doesn't fit this skill set.
Tank crews can be extremely skilled, but that is more of an exception then a mech pilot. Average tank crews should be more skilled then the game suggests.
In the example of most common is most used. Tanks are used to prevent the enemy from taking things that are needed, but the more valuable mechs are held in reserve. Without tanks performing well, there would be no mechs that weren't in guard duty that could be used to attack anyone. The game does not focus on that, as stompy mechs are the fun of it. That does not change the fact that vehicles are the main backbone of the armies for things infantry can't handle. You don't see a lance of mechs holding a mining area from the enemy. It is vehicles and infantry. Not enough mechs do even attempt it. The mechs are brought in to 'save' the day.
I believe the example of a river was meant to show the limits of vehicles verse mechs. They are nerfed in the fact they lack the mobility of mechs for things like this. The big thing always comes down to what type of vehicles you have. Rivers can be crossed by hover craft, but the question is do you have them there when needed? Are the banks set up to allow them to go over the water and onto the far side? Flyers are self explanatory. This is something that gives the mechs the mobility over vehicles. Not just being able to stomp on a unit. Not just run into a forest. This is a big part of why mechs are kings.
Not sure where it is said that mech pilots can't be well skilled. I said that tank crews should have a higher skill starting out then a mech warrior. Easier to train and skill in. Mechs will be better in the long run, as they don't die as often. And this also means that tank crews may well be split up to fill spots in other units, lowering the over all skill level. You are not going to keep a simple APC crew together if your Demolisher needs a crew. The commander may well be someone that doesn't know anything about the tank, or maybe a crew member was killed. Barracks being hit is a good way to disrupt the crews of units. Some being asleep, while others visiting their family when an attack comes. So it isn't all crew die at once. Even having them chased down to be killed is another scenario. One the game doesn't really go into, but we do see mech warriors being chased down and killed.
Now with the statement of the mechwarrior has the advantage because of technology. The neurohelmet allows him to react faster and aim more quickly and thus should have lower piloting and gunnery skill numbers. This would mean the pilot has less skill, as the tech gives him an advantage. This also suggests tank crews are more skilled as they need the same numbers to hit a target.
And again, the helm is there to help keep the mech upright. It has a very MAJOR purpose in that. Mechs can be piloted without the helm, but have a hard time staying up. Saying they are worthless if they don't help with gunnery is the issue.
If tanks outnumber mechs a good 4-to-1 or better, there's no way planetary assaults would be successful, at least not without losing so many mechs that attrition would have made them virtually extinct during the Succession Wars.
That statement shows why the idea that only mechs are used in attack. Vehicles are brought in for planetary assaults to try and counter some of the number advantages.
And now an issue that someone else seems to forget. Having 20 regiments on a world, does NOT mean they are all in one place. They are normally spread out to guard areas and important sites. Almost every major planetary assault says there are vehicles brought in to help with the assaults. Mechs are the main focus of combat. But that does not mean they are the ONLY units in combat. Fighter strikes are important to wear down enemy strongpoints. Mechs are the easiest to land and get out, as pilots can walk them into their cradles, while vehicles have to be strapped down after being moved into position. It takes more time to secure the vehicles. As most vehicle dropships are aerodynes, they tend to take off like a normal plane. This makes it absolutely necessary to have them strapped down, while a union, or overlord can take off while the mechs are being strapped down.
Using terrain to your advantage is not dezgra thinking. Clan warriors are tacticians. That means using terrain, especially if you are on the weaker side. Mines and such I will agree would be dezgra tactics.
There is an issue with the bidding concept that needs to be addressed. Depending on the unit commander, the bidding includes fighters and such. If not for the invasion, clans would not have bid away warships in combats.
I would think the galaxy commander or khans would negate a bid if the enemy did hole up in a canyon and mine the hell out of it before resorting to the bombardment. The honor loss for doing so would weigh heavily against such tactics. Increasing the bid is more likely, as mech combat is more desired. They might even send in the PGCs to deal with it to avoid the honor loss.
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Requiem
05/27/21 06:01 AM
1.158.223.134
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KFC
Problem is that they are a franchise and if they exist in Battletech world then the chicken recipe will be required on every world for logistical reasons. Thus in order to obliterate the recipe you will need to kill off every franchisee and every manufacturing plant on every world – this is the point – to kill off all knowledge you need to kill it off on every world – if even one world retains the knowledge then it can be easily duplicated and disseminated.
Regeneration
How many hospitals have internal schools etc to assist with personal development?
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NOTHING can be done right without fixing it from the base up.
What is the age of Battletech now?
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have to get the authorization to listen to that person
SOP – wouldn’t there be set directions (policies and procedures) for just this type of eventuality as it is not beyond the realm of possibility?
Cray – after working in a massive corporation for many years can I suggest you have a word with Human Resource Management.
This type of scenario should not occur – I had a standing document on my file stating what I an working on and where I am up to just in case I was hit by a bus. Also we have a standing process in order to retain implicit knowledge – This requires long term planning and preparation – smart organisations have plans in place encourage knowledge transfer prior to an employee leaving.
Suggest discussing with HR a process whereby you can develop a knowledge transfer strategy ie create an internal knowledge database – an internal internal-pedia whereby any new members can study the information during the onboarding process or a utilized in conjunction with a mentoring process to assist with knowledge transfer.
Loosing information due to retirement should not occur in this day and age – HR would have a conniption if they thought this would occur with us – as information is worth its weight in gold in order to maintain a competitive advantage of the competition!
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Semi finished products
Depends on the industry and the product – large corporation logistical chains in a globalization market require attention to detail when determining viability. Suggest a course in International Business would assist.
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I don't buy into the massive cost for a company of them having it spread all over the House's interstellar holdings either.
Problem – Logistics transport – How many tons can the largest dropship carry and how many of those are in existence. Yest it would make like sense if you have a vast cargo fleet that can transport a vast amount of tunnage between worlds. However, given this is the Battletech universe – I would believe, long term, it would be more cost effective to build a plant on all worlds than to ship it between worlds. Also having a viable Military Industrial Complex on every world would assist with planetary / Realm security – it would be harder to invade!
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It is however considered dezgra to use terrain and static defenses to your advantage.
Except if you are an Inner sphere force and then it is just SOP.
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They might even send in the PGCs to deal with it to avoid the honour loss.
And now we are right back at the discussion of Spartacus – demanding freedom.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/21 12:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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KFC had all their stores buying the premixed batter from one location. It is possible that a company would have all the parts made in one location and ship them out to be assembled elsewhere. Pretty much what a lot of Asian car companies do to avoid tariffs in the U.S. The assemble the vehicle here, not make the parts.
Having a plan on where employees are at all times doesn't negate the fact that having worlds nuked to the abyss will stop the data loss. Even having them on multiple worlds may not stop it.
This is not saying that the only copies are there, but many times backups are forgotten in hidden areas, hence the concept of finding the hidden caches, like Helm. It states that it was the largest intact cache found, but not the only one. Secrets like how to make a certain chip tends to be kept secret, and having them stashed away on other worlds does not mean someone from the company didn't move them, and not tell anyone.
It is obvious that you haven't really worked much with computers and programming them. You can tell someone how to run things, yet the system will have back doors, and most of the time, even the main programmer doesn't know about them. A few lines of code is alls it takes. When dealing with millions of lines, it is very easy to miss something, especially if they are an outside source. And NO. They are not scrutinized like they should be. If you have time to try and figure out the coding, then you don't need to have someone else do it.
Well let's see. When the main tech was done, the SL was not set up for a major war. Dropships and jumpships were abundant, and the company may well have had everything on one world, maybe even one city. When the firestorm did come, they could not rebuild, so had to move production to where standing buildings were at. Tech was sure to be stolen by even their own nations, such as competitors and those of groups that wanted to gain the information for themselves. Also, the concept of tax breaks would come into the mix and companies would be offered incentives to build something on this world or that one. The economy is not set up for even the nation in question. Most businesses were out for themselves to make money. With border factories, you would want to ship in the stuff, as the world could be invaded and you did not want the enemy to get it.
Your comment:
It is however considered dezgra to use terrain and static defenses to your advantage.
Your response"
Except if you are an Inner sphere force and then it is just SOP.
The IS was not set up for having honor rules. Not sure why this was even an issue. The clans will use terrain to their advantage, as that is part of TACTICS. Unless you think they do the old stand in a line and fire on each other routine. They did seem to look down on some things, but did not say it was dezgra. Ambushes did happen, and that requires terrain and such.
The clans are military. There is no such thing as revolt without severe punishment. For most PGC personnel, being able to pilot a mech is all there is. They want to die with glory, so charging even a dezgra enemy was something to look forward too. Even Freeborn pilots were brainwashed into this belief. NOW, not all were like this, but those that disregarded orders were punished, with death being a normal end result. Commanding officers tended to be great warriors, so a trial of grievance would be done if the commander didn't think it would dishonor them for fighting a dezgra warrior. For somone that pushed Kurita honor, you seem to fail to understand it here.
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Requiem
05/27/21 06:27 PM
1.158.223.134
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KFC had all their stores buying the premixed batter from one location.
Food is perishable by nature – and considering the vastness of space and the time it takes to transport via jumpship
Problem is Every-world throughout the entire Inner Sphere would have a single library to multiple large libraries used for either Universities or Research and development.
Again if even one site remains in tact all information can be quickly and easily disseminated!
How many capitol worlds were nuked back into the stone age – for wouldn’t they have the prestigious Universities for their realm – thus the most comprehensive libraries – so doesn’t it stand that if they were never obliterated then then the information should still be intact.
Case in point – Tharkad – “Being an interior world, Tharkad was spared the ravages of the Age of War and the Succession Wars”
So how does a capitol world that was never attacked suddenly loose all of its understanding of technology when all of libraries from the Star League era are still intact? And how many books are on paper not electronic?
Also Tharkad was home to the 8th Fleet SLDF which maintained a massive space port (space station) – where is it if no one ever attacked the Tharkad system?
Sorry but again the hypothesis that ALL information up to a certain level can be eradicated from thousands of worlds does NOT hold water ….
Considering the level of data security that is used currently why would it be reduced to an almost ineffectual status far into the future?
As for Clan Warriors – on the whole how patient are they when it comes to war and battle when they are engaging some-one they believe is inferior to them?
Revolt
Human nature – kick a person down over and over and how long until they fight back? – Spartacus Lives! – when a closed society meets an open society what happens when confronted by freedom ….
Kurita Honour – The Honour of Samurai is vastly different to that of the Clans ….
As for Clan Commanding officers … all they had to be was great pilots when killing others – this DOES NOT make them great generals and tacticians at the same time. They are not mutually inclusive! They are also not great at understanding people, … in failing to understand people and culture how many wars have been fought for the right for self determination? A point that is clearly lacking partisan fighting and loss of warriors with no replacement numbers (Sibko) there is a clear discrepancy between replacements and that of the loss depletion report …. Sorry but again I stand by my assertion given the numbers that invaded there is no way they could have survived for an extended period of time – they would have been kicked out of the Inner Sphere and only until the Clans have a major reformation as to how their warrior system operates the inner sphere numbers would sooner or later have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers alone.
That is unless someone extremely ruthless decided to kill of every Clan home world which is not that beyond the realm of possibility – one dropship at full speed rammed into a planet that is just one massive killer nuke – as per the rules once activated it cannot be stopped! And how many worlds do the Clan have?
So once the exodus road is known – how many would vote for such an action – just asl Le May as to his action in Japan.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/21 10:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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Might need to look at just how long food really lasts today. Freezing items allows them to last far longer then leaving them on the counter. The entire IS has a lot of food shipped, as this is part of how things like Defiance can maintain their population as they state directly that the food grown locally can NOT feed the planets population. We are not talking non perishable foods either. This is things like milk, fresh fruit and such.
Universities and libraries would not have protected information in their files. How to refine uranium into bomb making materials is not sitting in them so anyone can just check out the books. Fusion plants would NOT be there for anyone to read up on how to make them. Fusion bombs comes from that sort of thing. The old flamers would be a good example of another weapon.
Might need to read the history of the IS. Tharkad was hit a few times. Not the full nuke strikes, but they did suffer damage. And not all attacks need to be bombs. Simple raids with viruses that wipe out information as well as back ups did happen. The entire raid on the NAIS was done by Comstar. Think about the TH making the first mech. By your reasoning, the houses should not have had to raid the facilities for such knowledge.
Also the concept of all the information was lost isn't quite true. Parts of it could be lost, which prevents the making of the items or concepts. Space factories show this. The inability to make ferrous armor, endosteel and other low g items would be a good example. Factories and habitats were not all destroyed, so why, other then TPTB didn't want the items made?
How long do cult members stay brainwashed even when opened to outside influence? For the open society to have any influence on a closed one, it takes time. As the clans were a closed society for over 200 years, it isn't something that happens overnight. The splintering of the clans shows it is happening, but it will not just revolt in a day or two. You want instant results and that WILL NOT happen.
Again, you try to suggest that only the clans didn't have the resources to garrison worlds, yet refuse to look far to the past. The DC would never have been formed with holding each world hostage. So the entire IS would not exist. More then a few leaders would have splintered the houses with their actions. The Terran Alliance found that out when the great exodus and colonizing the IS happened. So no. The issue is far more then just the clans.
As a side note that you missed, the clan leaders had to be good tacticians, otherwise their khans would have removed them or prevented them from rising in the ranks if they couldn't win. The trials pit almost even forces against each other, and that meant having to win with tactics. Some defenders didn't get given the almost even forces and still had won.
The willingness to engage units they feel inferior shows the lack of understanding clan thinking again. Most warriors would avoid fighting someone they feel is inferior, which is why solemha units are sent after pirates. It is beneath them. Hatred of a particular unit would be an exception. Otherwise, most warriors would not rush into a battle with an opponent they feel is inferior. The IS warriors were considered inferior, but the thinking was that they were spoiling the SLs lands, which they held dearly. It would be more like a religious crusade. Once the IS started finding out the clans ways, only then did they find out they had to respect the IS.
Then again, this seems to be saying all clan warriors were morons and beyond arrogant. This is not true. They did not shy from battle, but if they constantly did what you are suggesting, then they would be removed or killed by the others as they would be breaking the ways of fighting. Remember that the clans were not horde on horde, but large scale one on one battles. You waited until an enemy was available.
Again, the return of absolute destruction of worlds is required. Once that starts, the 1st war returns in full force. It will splinter houses as the question comes up as to WHEN, not IF, you will do it to them. There is no bs about leaders thinking it wouldn't happen to them. Some would even try to extort others with such threats. To suggest otherwise would be a failure to understand the human nature.
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Requiem
05/28/21 07:39 AM
1.158.223.134
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Question – after transferring the secret ingredient form one planet to the next what would the base price of a single piece of chicken be? A couple hundred C-bills, in order to make this situation economically viable?
Thus putting the ordinary KFC into the Luxury food category – far our of reach from normal people.
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Universities and libraries would not have protected information in their files.
Er ….. Research and Development, and their role within the knowledge bases society and technological innovations …. These institutions can provide a significant role in any countries R&D as well as their economic development …
As for protected information …. How many backups would there be to ensure its safety – including paper?
As for NAIS – how successful was that raid?
Also Tharkad … why is there no record of their raids on Sarna?
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You want instant results and that WILL NOT happen.
Since when did I say this?
Deprogramming can occur and should be included - Psychological warfare units would be utilizing these tactics upon all non-warriors as well a PGCs - there is also a chance an Iron born could flip.
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Again, you try to suggest that only the clans didn't have the resources to garrison worlds, yet refuse to look far to the past.
Please do explain how any garrison force is supposed to effectively garrison Twycross when their population is over one billion.
Also do explain given each Clan’s total TO&E they are supposed to garrison every world they capture during the Initial Invasion – Jade Falcons alone by garrisoning with a Trinary alone would run out of forces to continue the invasion by ¾ mark (approximately) – and some of the others are not even that good.
Sorry but mathematics does not lie, the entire 3050 clan invasion is a complete farcical joke (in my opinion).
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As a side note that you missed, the clan leaders had to be good tacticians, otherwise their khans would have removed them or prevented them from rising in the ranks if they couldn't win.
Problem is how many in their history have been complete and utter wase of space except for the fact they are great pilots?
If you can hold the position through force then you are the leader.
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this seems to be saying all clan warriors were morons and beyond arrogant. This is not true.
Really …. Problems from logistics to lack of information to lack of advanced planning to not understanding their enemy’s culture as well as their response to being invaded ….
Yes they are morons and beyond arrogant to the point of hubris …. TPTB made them this way – just have a look at Operation Neptune and Operation Overlord and the massive level of planning that went into this.
In all reality an operation of this scale would have had to commenced up to 10 years prior to the invasion to ensure Logistics etc were in place – also any office should have completed a loss depletion report and worked out that within a protracted war - their Sibko numbers would never work.
Ignorance and a lack of preparation are no excuse … the only thing that saved them was the TPTB (again in my opinion)
Absolute destruction
Really the clans invade – use ordital bombardments and you expect mercy?
There are people who will use any means to destroy their enemy – and the Clans are not visible they are six months distant – you really expect someone like Indrahar to show mercy?
Just like LeMay if given the chance he would obliterate every clan home world to ensure the safety of the Draconis Combine.
Time to bring some realism to the game!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/21 12:14 PM
45.51.181.83
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The entire discussion about psy-ops has been one that you have pushed for the clans to go into a revolt almost immediately after they were in contact with the IS. When Chandy Kurita was used as an example, you basically scoffed since it didn't set off the revolt. Dropping agents onto world and not having the clanners not revolt against their leaders suggests the end result is instant revolt.
The entire concept of holding a full hostile world with even a million troops isn't possible. Especially with there being billions of people on that world. You need local support, which the clans got. This is why the focus on the clans is just bias. The Terran Alliance pulling back to what they did would still have not worked right given the forces the TA had, and the amount of worlds rebelling, even the ones in their own borders. So stop demanding a band aid fix and start from the beginning.
Missing the point that the clan leaders can and did use their positions to refuse certain pilots from being promoted? There are more then a few pilots in the PGCs that were better then front line star captains. They were moved out because of things like age and a bad battle. It got to an extreme shortly after the clans invade, as this is what lead to Trent finally having enough and giving the IS the way back to the home worlds.
Also, they wash out of training if they aren't able to perform tactical thinking. So yeah. All of them had to be good with tactics.
The clans used bombardment once, and you make it sound like they used nothing but? And yet the IS was using more underhanded tactics, like assassinations, bombing of their own to get at the clans, as well as other things.
The clans were preparing to invade when the Dragoons were sent in. So 45 years or so? They were not just sitting on their buts while that was going on. Though they were not building the stations along the routes at this time, do you think they didn't have them premade, and ready to go? That they were preparing for the IS from the first report, which would have them at a greater advantage then what they had in 3049? SL tech helped prevent even more losses.
The flaws are not just the clans, but there before the clans existed. The invasion shown some of them in a greater light. I am not arguing the garrison and logistics issue was bad. They were written that way to allow the IS to hold off the clans. Eventually, TPTB splintered the IS for the wars to continue without causing the Amaris war destruction.
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