Karagin
09/27/21 08:33 PM
70.118.172.64
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I still see them using the plant for parts and supplying spares to Marik etc..for hard cash and other materials they need. Which would make sense given that they didn't really use the LAMs.
LAMs are fun, but clumsy in the game mainly because of the rules governing them. I found that Airmech mode is way over the top as far as the movement goes and makes them very munchy, or as a buddy said back in the day, "If I wanted to play Robotech, I would be still be drinking while doing the Palladium math". He wasn't a fan of the LAMs as a whole.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/30/21 05:29 PM
68.169.149.5
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I always thought the LAMs were excellent for roleplaying purposes, but lousy for tabletop. Aerospace and conventional fighters also don't quite work right on tabletop either. In my opinion LAMs were effectively equivalent to a Boomerang Spotter Plane. You get good recon out of them, but best to leave them behind while the rest of the company does the fighting.
FASA couldn't ever reach a happy medium with them, and with the unseen lawsuit over their heads quietly wrote them out. Didn't miss them. LAMs should have remained dead but Jihad silliness unnecessarily brought them back into play.
That said, I have long had an idea for an early Cloud Cobra totem mech being a LAM named Wadjet. This would be 2830s or so: when SLDF tactics were still in play for some of the Clans and before the breeding protocols kind of made LAMs a dicey subject. It just matches up perfectly with Wadjet being the Egyptian cobra goddess, the Cloud Cobras adopting a lot of Egyptian mythology in their culture, Cloud Cobra being a heavy fighter user, and even the "jet" part of the name. It almost writes itself.
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ghostrider
09/30/21 08:26 PM
45.51.181.83
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Don't see why you couldn't do something with the Cloud Cobras. Might even be able to have it in the modern age as well, though that might be a bit more problematic.
Since the changed so many rules for things, and 'fixed' so many issues with failed mechs, the idea of a heavy mech being a LAM isn't that far fetched. There are a few that look like they would make a great set up for one. The Catapult is one that would really need to have the conversion gear, and look like a blocky LAM with the LRM pods. It has the Jumpjets, so that isn't something out of place. Granted, the 'wings' might be too small to provide lift, as it has no arms, so that might be an issue. The Crusader-L is the picture of an armored veritech, so there is another one.
The introduction of the Super Heavy units destroyed the top end weight for a lot of units, so there isn't much to prevent it.
Of course a successful run of a Clan LAM might well be WHY the clans hate them so much. A 'sneak' raid might have been done to destroy the factory that made it. As fighters can be part of a bid, it would really screw up a challenge if LAMs were deployed in mech mode. And I don't believe the fragile issues with them. Yes, they have more working things that can break, but they are heavier then their counterparts, ie the Stinger and Wasp LAM are 25 tons, not 20.
Used correctly, they are just as valuable as normal mechs or fighters.
Then again, they might have gone extinct when the advanced components like the XL engine, endo steel, and Ferrous armor become that much more popular. Couldn't get around the issues of conversion with the extra critical space needed.
I would suggest a home rule that would allow you to kick with a AIr-mech mode unit while in flight. Basically destroy your leg in order to slam into the punch table hit locations with added force. Not gravity generated, but full thrust from the jets pushing the unit forward.
Or if you want to be nice, do a standard roll to see if you damage the legs at a penalty.
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Wick
09/30/21 09:31 PM
68.169.149.5
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No, my idea for Wadjet would be medium class. I'd keep all the existing rules, it would just be Clan-tech rather than Inner Sphere-based. Though because LAMs are restricted to standard skeletons, armor and engines anyhow, this means only the weapons would be uniquely Clan-grade. Clan totems need not be heavy or assault-class (Mandrill comes to mind as an early light-weight totem.) I'd probably go 40 or 45 tons simply because the Phoenix Hawk LAM was already at the top of the scale.
I'd also want to respect the fact that LAMs become detestable to the Clans at some point. I've never seen any exact point in time this occurs though. Unofficially, it seems to be at the point the Clans form circa 2807. But at this point in time, all the Warriors would have been trained in SLDF tactics which includes a significant amount of LAMs. New forms of honorable warfare in the form of zellbrigin don't develop until later (and generally not strongly until post-Klondike.) More officially its described to have occurred by the time the geneticists started breeding specific MechWarrior and Aerospace lines, which is around the 2850s and 2860s. (The stories behind Clans bidding against each other for Elemental protocols in the 2860s and 2870s indicates genetic dissimilarity still isn't firmly established by this point.) So I see a window of opportunity for Clan-tech LAMs prior to the 2860s or so.
My personal thought would be the Wadjet begins mid-2830s but falls out of favor around 2850 and by 2870 was no longer in use, even amongst second-line units. Acceptable early, but becomes dezgra through the genetic goals of the Clans. Kind of like how Narc Missile Launchers sour amongst the Clans: nothing wrong with the technology, it just doesn't fit their evolving culture.
The Jade Falcons did experiment with a pair of LAMs from 3058-3060 (one Phoenix Hawk LAM C and one Stinger LAM C). But their plan involved a dual cockpit - one for the MechWarrior and one for the Aerospace Pilot. The Warriors who tested it hated it because one of the two was always left out of the fight, and felt they had to share the honor of any kill. A neat idea, but non-workable for the Clans that late in their history, even amongst second-liners. I'd have liked to have seen that dual-pilot concept developed a bit more during the Star League, or perhaps by a House during the earlier Succession Wars. There's an XTRO entry or two buried in that idea.
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ghostrider
10/03/21 12:25 PM
45.51.181.83
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They would well become detestable to the clans for a few reasons.
First, the 'waste' of training someone to be a mech pilot as well as an aeropilot. They would always be considered inferior in both fields, even though this may not be true.
This means spotting the potential of a warrior to have what it takes to even begin training, as they are trained in sibkos, talent would need to be spotted when they are like 5 or so.
Given clan weaponry, it is very likely they will die that much faster in a fight. The clans are not as concerned about piloting skills as they are weapons skills. So unless all pilots can perform trick shots every time, it would be considered luck for the pilot to win fights.
Given some of the clan trials, it is very possible for a LAM operator to exit a circle of equals without trying. So this would cause most to shun the unit. As a side note, the fact that it carries fuel for flight, this is something most clan mech units don't normally have to worry about, or carry. Dropships would be the main thing to need it.
The fact that mechwarriors and aeropilots can be reassigned units, the LAM would be very difficult for anyone not specifically trained with it to use it with anything more then a substandard skill level.
The specific parts is another issue. The omni concept means a lot of parts are generic. The original Omni's in tro 3050 look like robots more then most. The have the rings where the limbs attach, verses the shoulders and hips of other mechs. I am going to assume that most of the mechs built after the Omni was created, tend to use the same parts as Omnis do, for ease of maintenance and spare parts. One component for say a 25 ton mech should be useful in all 25 ton mechs, which isn't really the case in the units before the Omni. Yes, the game does not deal with this, but for a living universe, it would be something.
Yes, there will be some issues that you will never be able to get away from mech specific parts.
Deployment of LAMs would be another issue. Most clan leaders are not as concerned about maneuvering as they are about being able to take down the opponent. So landing a force behind the enemy doesn't give that much of an advantage in a normal trial of possession. There would be a stigma attached to the unit, as they were more for hit and run then a stand up fight. This is not saying the clans don't maneuver, but it isn't the top priority.
So there are a few reasons why it would fall out of favor for the clans once formed. Granted, it might be possible for the scientist caste to have a small unit of them ready to guard them incase of trouble. Mainly to get them out of the line of fire.
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Wick
10/07/21 11:33 PM
68.169.149.5
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The explanation that maneuverability is, in most clans, secondary to firepower could certainly lead LAMs to be becoming unfavored, but not dezgra. The hit and run tactics, bombing-only roles, or other tactics like that are a better explanation.
You've got me thinking that my Ice Hellions might be one of the last to give up on the idea though. They value maneuverability and don't have as much of a problem with hit and run tactics.
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ghostrider
10/15/21 01:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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Are jumpship and warship facilities set up in a ring, like Star Wars and Starship Troopers?
Or are the free floating set ups like Star Trek?
Or is there a mix of them?
The group is looking to raid a ship yard, and we are trying to figure out which one to go with. The single slips would be easier to raid, as there would be less guards on it, and if you take out coms, making it far easier, while the ring one would have a lot of guards do deal with.
Of course Fighters are going to be a real problem, but that is expected. A few assault dropships in the mix as well.
The GM has allowed us to gain intel that a couple of ships are nearing completion or finish repairs, and we thought to try and grab them.
I don't trust it will be that simple. Our GM is known to add in nasty surprises, like having the full crew including extra security there as the ships near completion. Also we believe there is a staging ground on the world in the system, so extra dropships are very probable.
Supplies and if a good roll, maybe a ship is in the offering. So kind of hard to pass up, while making an unusual fighting area to play in.
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Karagin
10/15/21 03:09 PM
70.118.172.64
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From my take, it's a mix of things for the facilities.
My group has used a lot of mixed ideas to fill what is missing from the background or never really get's a full explanation, etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 12:55 AM
45.51.181.83
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One thought came up while thinking about scenarios.
The max weight of a bridge. Is that per vehicle, or the entire bridge?
This is important, as some have major cities with bridges that can't support more then 20 tons.
This can't be true, as normal vehicles in use are more then 20 tons each.
Some buses, like the double deckers are 47,000 pounds dry. Put on a load of passengers, and it will exceed 50,000 pounds easily.
Some trucks pulling even a single trailer can be over 40 tons themselves, and that doesn't even touch doubles and even triples.
One prime example would be the bridges going into New York City in the U.S. They will have dozens or more traveling across them, while some of the freeway bridges over rivers that aren't in prime cities would do the same thing.
But back to the 20 tons. Older cars could be close to a full ton themselves, with the newer ones being down to almost half a ton. So 40 cars would be over 20 tons, and that would fit on more then a few bridges. This does not account for trucks and SUVs, which may even be towing something like a boat or travel trailer.
We won't get into rail bridges, as they can not be even close to just a 20 ton weight limit as their locomotives are heavier then that.
The description of a mechs foot, suggests it distributes the weight over a larger area then most vehicles, which is why they don't bog down as much in swampy bogs and such. This means they would distribute the weight over a larger area then a bus would.
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rockdee733
02/05/22 03:46 AM
122.177.110.241
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I did know the arrow IV had tag guided missiles, but they did have tag guided aircraft and Aerofighter bombs? Ok. Good to know.
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ghostrider
02/05/22 01:22 PM
45.51.181.83
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A lot has changed since the original release of things like the Arrow IV came out. If you don't have the newer rules, then you don't know about some things. I learned that a while back, as the last rule book I got was Battle Master Rules.
I learn things as they come up.
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ghostrider
04/19/22 09:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of Twycross and the use of ICEs made me think of a simple question.
If the weather is that bad, why did they colonize it in the first place?
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Karagin
04/19/22 10:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
The question of Twycross and the use of ICEs made me think of a simple question.
If the weather is that bad, why did they colonize it in the first place?
Because of the mineral content on the planet and the breathable atmosphere.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/20/22 11:49 AM
45.51.181.83
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Been a while since I seen the data for Twycross. But it makes sense.
As the SL had at least limited terraforming, you would figure they could lessen the storms or start converting other worlds over to breathable atmospheres. Even lacking water wasn't that big of an issue in the SL time. Shipping in ice asteroids would help to get it started. Guess playing games like Surviving Mars is giving me bad information.
I can see the reasoning for terraforming not being done as the machines may well have broken down.
I guess the developers thought making the factory on world instead of shipping the materials off world was the better idea.
Well, at least you wouldn't be so concerned about pollution settling in one area.
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ghostrider
04/25/22 11:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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We really need the real SL versions of mechs to be released.
The Warhammer was a topic, and it seems like it would not survive an encounter with another Warhammer. Yes, some shots will miss, but the SL version would not last long with the armor loads it had. The discussion moved to other mechs, and the patterned seemed to continue.
Even the max possible armor placement seems weak compared to the SL weapons, making the group wonder why armor was not a priority. They were basically one shot units.
Except for hot drops and more armor locations, mechs were an expensive target against vehicles that used the advanced weapons of the SL.
309 armor max for a 100 ton mech isn't much when things like an Alacorn was available. The ferrous fiber armor only allows less weight for same coverage, but at a higher cost. This still would mean mechs were not the bargain the game makes them out to be.
Then add in clantech, which does even more damage then the SL weapons do. This sounds like the logic hole of vehicles having to be nerfed was created by the lack of actually play testing it.
Not sure what I am missing, but something sounds very wrong and off about the entire mech concept.
Yes, it is a game, and without big stompy mechs, it wouldn't be as much fun without them.
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Karagin
04/25/22 11:22 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Royal mechs are out there in one of the TROs as a small write-up. All the SL mechs would have is all the bells and whistles so not seeing much beyond needing the variants listed within the mech write-ups in the TROs that need said such.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/02/22 02:58 AM
45.51.181.83
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To avoid issues with another thread, I thought to put up a concept that came to mind.
Wouldn't changing the weight of a unit mean basically building a new unit, not refitting an old one?
The internal structure would have to be rebuilt, meaning the entire mech would no longer be the type being changed.
Like the Phoenix Hawk IIC. They moved it up to 80 tons, which would mean a new skeleton in it. So trying to use an old version of it to do so, shouldn't work at all. It isn't like you can just weld on another frame to the existing one and make it work.
Same thing with lightening the unit as well. You can't just cut the internals in half and expect the unit to work right. It has to be rebuilt from scratch.
This was an odd thought that came up. Thought I would get it out there and see if my thoughts were right, or I am missing something.
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ghostrider
06/06/22 11:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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Is there anywhere that has stated the HPG needs to have open sky above them to work?
The question came up as the idea of a secret base, such as an underground hidden base, may well have a mobile HPG there to allow it contact with a specific HPG in another system.
Having it move to the surface to send or receive a message lowers the chance of the base remaining hidden.
As the signal is sent into hyperspace as it leaves the antenna, there would not be a reason for the light show most think it would have. The video games depiction of a beam going out should not be there. If it can be blocked, then having a disposable, or even resistant object to place in the way of the dish would be the way to avoid outgoing messages from a defender.
Radio waves can penetrate ground, so why wouldn't the HPG pulse? Put deep enough, you could still have space above the generator to send the message.
The gravity situation may prevent this, but there has been nothing stated that a moon or other object was in the way, so a message had to be delayed.
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Karagin
06/06/22 05:12 PM
70.118.172.64
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Never heard anything about needing an open sky for them to work. Can't find anything in the books either so, going with no you don't need an open sky for them to work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/06/22 08:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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The concept of open skies came up thinking about the video games, and the need for large surface buildings to represent the HPGs. I don't remember places like Twycross suggesting the HPGs were underground.
So the chance of finding a secret base with a small area with a generator hidden far underground, were the only access to it would be inside wire conduits is possible. Might lead to mobile units, or even a full scale working HPG. Maybe a few of them. A black ops hub so to speak.
I doubt Comstar would have access to all secret locations for this type of building. The periphery would be a more likely place for something like this to survive in.
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Karagin
06/06/22 09:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The dish might need a big area but then again maybe not since the whole thing fits on a warship and we don't see no large dish arrays on those things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/06/22 10:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Mobile HPG wouldn't have a large dish either. It is only 50 tons, and needs a lot of that for things like engine, power, armor and such.
Even if a fairly large dish is needed, you could still seal up the chamber it is in, so it does not have much access to the outside. Even just a reinforced roof and collapse or backfill up to the surface is the only thing required. After a while, you wouldn't even know it was there, or better yet, make a lake there. The water would be a decent cover when the land returns to looking like a normal lake.
Just make sure the area by the HPG doesn't leak.
The thought just hit me. What if the dish is only shown as so large due to the video games and artists?
It isn't like they haven't exaggerated pictures before.
It looks like we are to assume they are the size of radio telescope dishes. It could well be the size of the antenna on the Swiftwind car. The generator may be the main weight of the unit, not the dish.
More thought about it, Comstar could well have made it look that large to make sure others don't try and make one themselves.
Using the black box model, the transmitter is the issue, not the dish. The Blackbox is slower, but can send it further then the large dishes. Well, until the WOB garbage came out.
Edited by ghostrider (06/06/22 10:04 PM)
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Karagin
06/06/22 10:42 PM
70.118.172.64
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I wouldn't doubt the dish is the largest part of the whole thing, and I wouldn't doubt that ComStar would make it even bigger to make it look more impressive.
One thing I find odd, is that somehow the whole system crashes and no one has a clue how to reboot it or anything, yeah something tells me that was a poor story plot point that was just there for well here is why the ROTS is not the powerhouse, etc...then again given who many of the PTB during the Jihad/Dark Age silliness were, well logical plots and such were not their strong point Almost surprised they didn't try to lift more from other Sci-fi properties to cover the lack of skilled writing.
Let's look at things, ComStar has to keep their stuff working, it's VERY illogical that the "idea" that they could not repair or build new HPGs is one that has always been hard to follow. And given that we can see tons of tech roll out the second the ComStar splits with their fanatical side, yeah okay. Just like we are to believe everything we are told by ComStar, yet then told they lie...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/07/22 02:17 AM
45.51.181.83
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I do agree that it is very strange that the people that were keeping the network up and running, could not figure out how to keep it running, nor knew how to fix or build new ones.
I could see a system wide crash one time. Something like an old SL code that shut down the network, but it would only last as long as the systems were still powered. Once fully shut down, they could be brought back on line without an issue, unless the code was still transmitting. But that is pushing it a bit.
Something similar to the one IBM compatible virus that shut down comps on the 26th of each month for a while.
But again, this should not have lasted long.
It would have been funny to find out it wasn't purposefully done, but someone looking into the code and found the command or password.
There is a question on this. Does Comstar/WOB update their coding? Or is it the same program made back in the SL time before Amaris? The quasi religious aspect of it would make me think they never coded any of it after a time. It would seem funny if they did not repair things properly due to the same issues. Not likely, but funny.
Yeah. I can see only one back up to the main code, and the tape drive it was on, malfunctioned, sending out bad code each time the update was set to go off. 
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ghostrider
06/21/22 07:26 PM
45.51.181.83
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A major irony just occurred to me.
Alexander and Nicholas Kerensky had performed disciplinary actions on military personnel when they mutinied, and this was considered horrible, but when Katherine Steiner-Davion did so, it was just disciplining those that fell out of line.
As the FC was considered a free realm, not a military operation, isn't this ironic?
Both examples had people put to death.
The issue of legality comes up, yet it was never suggested that a free society should never have done so.
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Karagin
06/21/22 08:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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A couple of things, military courts are different from civilian courts. In the case of the Kerensky's they are both using military Tribunals (military courts), suggest you go read some on the US Military Uniform Code of Military Justice, (UCMJ) it will explain a lot about why a military will sentence a person to death or hard labor for things that would get far milder sentencing on the civilian side. Now for the part about Katherine, she was using existing laws of the Fed-Com and her own picked judges to get what she wanted. that's normally how dictators work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 11:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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The wiki on the Exodus Road seems to be wrong.
The Exodus Road was the route established between the Clan Homeworlds and the Inner Sphere during Operation REVIVAL. At roughly 1,000 light years in length, it was a secret way through the stars leading more or less directly to the coreward border of the Inner Sphere and Periphery. Despite the name, this path is different to the meandering and far longer route originally taken by General Aleksandr Kerensky for Operation EXODUS.[1]
The map given in the wiki shows Operation Revival taking an almost straight path 'down' into the IS, not along the curved road of the exodus.
It is even more confusing as the Exodus Road ends/begins near the OA, not the FRR.
After the Clan Invasion, the Exodus Road became a key supply line between the invader clans and the Clan Homeworlds. To prevent the Inner Sphere forces to discover the road, the road was divided into several stages. Any ship that traveled the route had to erase its navigational data before the next part of the journey as a security measure.
This further suggests the wiki is wrong. Maybe it meant the Revival route, not the Exodus route.
Can someone tell me what I am missing with this?
This bothered me when Trent was returning to the clan home worlds, mapping the road. There is a huge difference between the two paths.
I was looking up where the Tortuga Pirates were and and if they should have found the Dragoon's hidding supply depot. The map shown does not give enough visual to see how far out in the periphery by the OA it goes.
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Karagin
06/22/22 12:05 AM
70.118.172.64
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Keep in mind there are two planets named Ferris as well one in the Barrens and one in the OA. Lots of oddities out there in the "uncharted" Periphery that is still just that as far as TPTB are concerned until they need it not to be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/23/22 06:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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Does this constant reusing names show why the imagination of the developers seem stunted?
I know it is difficult at times to come up with something new, but then I am not writing things to make money.
The example of the Exodus road causes a lot of confusion to people, especially if they don't have access to a website to clarify things, like Sarna has.
The novels don't do much to show this either. Using the Exodus road for Trent, then Serpent, would mean they would have used Revival road, which meant the IS should have run into a lot more of the Jaguars before then got to the clan home worlds. Even other clans should have been encountered.
I know. FASA logic strikes again.
At least some of the novels had contact with forces of the Jaguars, as well as the Nova Cats.
This really shows the developers need to pay closer attention to the novel writers. And maybe get someone else with some creativity and imagination into the team.
Otherwise, just change Strana Mechty to Terra and the pentagon worlds into the IS house capitals.
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Karagin
06/23/22 09:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think the reusing of the names comes from the idea that people will name things how they want. How many Richmonds are there or Greenville's or Georgetown's, etc...that isn't a major issue if was done with a number behind the name, like Carthage Nine or how they treat Solaris VII, we know it's the seventh world of that system, but they don't do that. Maps only show a name, you have to go dig to find out that Ferris and Ferris are not the same planets.
Mechs and vehicles and aerospace units have the same issues. That's going to happen, happens in real life. So their quirk of it is normally fine, but they keep using it over and over and over. The game is a thousand plus years from the then date of 1983/84 time. Worlds would not be just common names, we should be seeing crazy stuff like New Vegas or New Waltworld, or similar things, we all know corporations are going to be jumping to get a world or ten under their control and name it after themselves. Imagine a Walmart world or a Sears wolrd or a Amazon world...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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