Requiem
07/14/18 01:45 AM
58.175.193.140
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Cannon
Katherine hired an assassin …. that assassin found his way into the Draconis Combine and its Capitol Luthien ….. the assassin then set a trap for Omika Kurita within her own garden …. Omika was subsequently murdered … in retaliation her father and brother hunted the assassin from one end of the Inner Sphere to the other end of the Inner Sphere … where and when the assassin thought himself safe was cornered and decapitated within one of his safe homes by Omika’s brother.
Following the end of the Civil War between that Katherine and Victor she was to be locked away for all time … however due to Clan Wolf’s IL-Khan’s intervention at that time she was given to Clan Wolf as a bondswoman in the hopes she would test out as a warrior …
The following relates, therefore, to “my opinion” on what would have been a more probable outcome for Katherine considering her sins and to whom she sinned against …
The Sin: ………………The Murder of Omika Kurita
Whom she Sinned Against:………………….. Coordinator Theodore Kurira - Omika’s father and also that of her brothers and the entire Kurita Family – The Draconis Combine and that of their people also.
When considering the level of guilt / responsibility consider the following – who is more guilty the arm that perpetrates the crime or the mind that conseved of the crime?
I would believe most would say the mind holds the balance of the guilt and the responsibility for the crime.
Then let us consider to whom the crime was perpetrated upon the Kurita family … Samurai!
Prior to the end of the Civil War Katherine was inviolate … however once she became part of Clan Wolf all this changed …
One must also remember the true story of the 40 Ronan Samurai … they waited years to gain vengeance upon their fallen master and when the time came they got it … killing the man who had wronged their master, forcing him to commit seppuku …..
I therefore propose that with Katherine now a part of Clan Wolf … House Kurita’s time of waiting is at an end …. one way or another once DEST agents had located her upon whichever Clan Wolf world they had her transferred to ….. Coordinator Theodore Kurita would order her abduction either by DEST agents or a full invasion by the entire Genyosha, he would have his vengeance ….
Once captured and returned to Luthien she would have been thrown into the deepest darkest cell … undergoing torture until one dark night where she would be taken to Omika’s garden and there decapitated.
Her crime was too great against house Kurita for her to be left alive … only her immediate transfer from Victor’s side to that of the Clan Home worlds could have delayed the inevitable ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/18 12:30 PM
66.74.61.223
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Katherine was responsible for more deaths then just Omi. Most would try and say that is the right of a ruler.
I would agree with alot of the post, except the location of the execution.
The garden is supposed to be a place for peace, not dishonoring it with the execution of a criminal.
This act, would defile the garden's purpose, as well as destroy the entire thoughts behind any such garden. The assassination of Omi would be an argument that is was already defiled.
A war would happen if Katherine was taken, as the FC and Wolves (if that late in the story line) would not allow the DC to keep her. Executing her where found would be the most likely solution, as it would not allow state secrets to be gained by the DC. There would be demands for the act, but given she ordered the execution of Omi, there could not really be much weight behind it.
Even with Victor wanting to let her suffer, he could not be seen as giving in to the DC. That would reignite the civil war. Probably destroying the FC in the process. There would be no peace afterwards.
Some would see her as a hero for striking at the heart of the Kurita family, in both sides of the FC. Others would see her as a murderer, as she did that with so many others on both sides of the FC. Best she die quickly and quietly. Even just a strike from DEST would work.
But that does not promote a good story line, and shuts down alot of conflicts for the future.
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Requiem
07/14/18 07:26 PM
58.175.193.140
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The garden was dishonoured when Omika was assassinated in the first place … executing her in the same place has a strange sense of symmetry to it (closing the circle as it were) …. In executing Katherine there it, in my opinion, would exorcise any ghosts within the garden and allowing it to be returned to a garden of peace …. a very Japanese thing to do would you not agree?
Katherine is no longer a part of either the Lyran Alliance or the Federated Suns – she is now Clan Wolf …
how many would be allowed to know this, that she has been given to Clan Wolf?
Would this be a state secret?
And if it is what would the cover story be, that she is locked up in a prison hidden away on some desolate planet? …
So therefore, how could Victor then break this state secret and tell everyone that not only did he give her to Clan Wolf to stop a war but also in addition to this that now the DCMS have her?
Would he not be forced to retain the secret that she is still locked away some-where safe thus preserving the ignorance of the masses as to her true fate and thus ensuring no future conflict with Draconis Combine?
Thus Victor’s only option is to make a private request of the Coordinator at this stage?
There is also the point that the Lyran Alliance and the Federated Suns have just gone through a Civil War – they both have new rulers – and they are both in no shape to start another war with the Draconis Combine at this stage …. they need time to heal … and politicians being politicians they will lie to their people to keep the illusion that they are safe and they are healing, a point that Katherine is rotting away in a Draconic Combine cell would shatter the people’s illusions ….
Second, if she is taken in battle by Clan tradition she can be considered to be Isorla – the spoils of battle that warriors claim as their right, including bondsmen (Katherine) …. thus, there would be no war with Clan Wolf …. And Luthien bound she would go upon a DCMS victory by using the clan’s own traditions to gain the prize.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/01/19 05:44 PM
1.158.130.13
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Katherine Steiner Davion, a second more realistic future for her could be the following …
Jihad era – she is now apparently a Clan Wolf Warrior
Tharkad is besieged by WOB and Archon Peter was cut off from the remaining realm
In 3071, Peter abdicated so that the Blakists could no longer symbolically control the Archon and in his place, he designated Adam Steiner as his successor. (an illegal act due to the law regarding the rules of succession!)
Question: What would happen if at this stage if Katherine returned and announced she is retaking her position of Archon in this dark age?
How many would follow her rather than Adam?
In all reality, I believe, most if not all of the Army would swear allegiance to her (despite some of them being on Victors side during the FedCom Civil War) – Peter has failed utterly and though Adam is in command of the Military he does not have the pedigree Katherine has to become Archon the military could very easily shift their allegiance to her given the extraordinary circumstances.
The Estates General could conceivably reinstate her rather than accept Peter's wish of making Adam the next Archon .... she would still have the political capitol to make it happen as Peter has none with the Estates General he has just given up and abdicated not only his right to rule but that of his son (Hanse) as well ... whereas she never gave up .... she fought to the last. She could very easily be seen as a returning Valkyrie to save them from the WOB if the media gets involved ....
At this point in time she could very conceivably stage a coup and retake the throne, and there is nothing Peter or Adam could do to stop it – that is unless they want to start a second civil war whilst simultaneously fighting off the WOB ..... so would they fight a two front war or fight for the Lyran people under her rule?
For me if Kurita has not killed her off by this stage this is what she would do – remaining with Wolves is just not in her character – once free from their shackles she could very conceivably re-take the throne as the Lyran people would still see her as their legitimate ruler as Victor (jealous of his sister) used his army to be rid of her and in doing so destroyed the Federated Commonwealth.
Viva La Re-write / Battletech 2.0
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/01/19 11:42 PM)
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Requiem
04/01/19 11:53 PM
1.158.130.13
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A twist of fate and she is Archon once more …
Then when you take it further …. Victor having to work together with Katherine to defeat the WOB
How many concessions would she demand of him ….?
And how many would prefer to see her once more on the throne … than Victors puppet ….
And Vlad of the Wolves his reaction? Probable she would leave a message he would understand, something like … “a Khan can be nothing else than a Khan, I return to take my rightful position once more ….”
Would the Wolves and the Lyrans then fight together against the WOB?
Thus Kells Wolves / Kells Hounds / Lyrans and Vlad’s Wolves fighting together?
Would make for a more interesting story this way
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/02/19 08:37 PM
1.158.130.13
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How many times in history have we seen the exiled King / noble lord (or even more recently - politician) return in triumph during or after a climatic event that they can utilize to springboard their return?
So it is not beyond the realms of possibility that she could return at this stage … especially that she is now a warrior, trained by the clans, to fight in a ‘Mech (thus the image of her as a Valkyrie gains strength)
Though of more importance, how would the average Lyran citizen react to the with Katherine’s return.
Given the level of admiration you see in past books many would sigh a deep sigh of relief that a true Steiner was once more upon the throne. So how could the Estates General appoint anyone other than her to the position as Archon? You would have rioting on the streets upon multiple worlds …. Many mobiles might find themselves without a world due to revolution if they did not support her.
To me the return of Katherine would have provided for a greater plot twist than that of the canon provided.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/04/19 02:25 AM
1.158.130.13
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So how does Katherine return to Lyran Space? … what if ….
A former Lyran Noble who was a supporter of Katherine’s during the Civil War came to know in advance of the abdication …..
With the majority of the Lyran Government upon Tharkad …. However, a minority of the Estates General members could come together, even in this turbulent time, together with rogue Loki operatives in a plot to either send a regular Lyran military into Clan Wolf Space (as I would assume Loki would be keeping tabs upon her location (as best they could)) / a mercenary unit / or a lone Loki team with instructions to kidnap her (in a similar way that her bother was kidnapped ie. apparently killed off)
Once successful they could smuggle her back to Lyran space.
To put a twist into the story –what if Kell’s Clan Wolf in Exile become aware of the plot? What would they do? Stop it if they can? In the open or in secret? Try to kidnap her also to stop her retaking the throne ….
If in secret, if they do get caught by Vlad’s Wolves – the consequences would be high ….
Though, somehow she slips the net and is able to meet up with the Free Estates General Members (all nobles who supported her during the Civil War) – there once the decree of abdication becomes known a second decree is sent to all Lyran worlds and military units that she is reassuming her rightful position as Archon.
Who would side with the “general of the army” and who would side with the “former” Archon?
It makes for an interesting plot twist rather than the simplified and illegal action that was forced upon us ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/04/19 09:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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First question would be how many of the Estates supported her because they had no real choice? With me or against me sentiment.
Second question. Why didn't the wolves in exile try to kill her? Or use her as a means to cause issues in Vlad's wolves. Katherine was not a warrior when taken, so why would the clans bother training her as one that late in life? That isn't the clan traditions. Freeborn no less. (IE, issues with the crusaders thinking.)
Along with this, there would be 'rumors' of the trial of position being rigged, as few would believe a non warrior could be taught to become one, and beat a clan warrior. Might be a logic hole in the canon storyline.
Who would side with the “general of the army” and who would side with the “former” Archon?
This is a can of worms.
How many would see her willfully going with the Vlad, as betraying her own people? How many would see it as a sacrifice?
Most would have to think she is tainted by the clan ways of thinking, and would be more frightened by her actions, as the Lyrans fought against the clans to avoid becoming part of the clans. Now she wants them to willingly join? Or so should the propaganda lines would be really harping on.
As there was no fight for Vlad to take her, that would play very well into the hands of those that want her to stay out.
Third. Would any of comstar or WOB try to kill her? WOB would know she would be trouble for them, as she was trained by the clans for a while. Comstar might want her dead from the Civil war issues, or just to keep the clans from becoming better accepted in the IS.
Some might actually help her, as the 'honor' of the clans should counter a lot of the political backstabbing in the IS.
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Karagin
04/04/19 10:20 PM
72.176.171.47
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Y'all do you realize that Vlad and her had a son who is currently the head of the Wolf Empire right?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/05/19 03:34 AM
1.158.130.13
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Alaric Wolf? He has no relationship whatsoever to Vlad! he is an iron womb born individual
(the clan version of Lebensborn!!!!).
Gene-mother - Katherine Steiner –Davion
Gene Father – Victor Steiner-Davion
All the clan scientists need is the gene material of each individual and they can make him any time, as well as his brothers and his sisters if they want.
So the point is? this will not change history - except that his biological mother is now on the Lyran Throne and he is in Clan Wolf (perhaps even Khan at this stage)... this just adds to the juxtaposition of the story down the track .... if she can hold the throne to old age how will she react when she is presented with the knowledge that the clans have made her a son.
And what would happen if he demands the throne Clan Wolf Vs Lyrans in an all out battle of absorption
OR/-
What if she did marry and have children - thus upon her death (natural causes - old age) her natural children Vs her iron born child for the throne?
Makes for an interesting story(s) for the future .....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/05/19 04:50 AM
1.158.130.13
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ghostrider,
First, go back to the notes regarding the FedCom Civil War – then ask how many were happy that Victor forced his brother Peter on them.
Then ask how may are currently happy with Peter’s performance so far during the Jihad and how many are happy that he has decided to abdicate not only himself but that of child Hanse as well.
Then there is the decision regarding handing over the Throne to the General of the Army (Nt: he is a commoner - he has no real pedigree and no title to the throne whatsoever!!!).
Plus they are bypassing how many Steiners to give Adam the throne (so you need to ask how many political favours these people who were bypassed have with others within the Estates General, and how many will use them now to see that both Adam and Peter fail due to the slight they have received for not being chosen as the next Archon (especially when they were on the list of succession before even Adam was even considered).
As a member of the Estated General (remember to be a member of the Estates General you must have a minimum Rank Title to be a member, thus they are snobs /elitists of the highest level) – so, very (censored) off …… (putting it mildly).
Thus most if not all would be not happy …. and given Katherine is one of their own … so the likelihood they would choose her over Adam I would consider is very high.
Plus information / rumour would have gotten out that Victor “gave” his sister to the Clans – she did not go willing, she was just given away – he did it to get rid of her!
Thus getting her bask would be seen as a rescue mission – especially in this dark times of the Jihad where their current Archon can be considered to be a dismal failure by the common man and those of rank and title.
So, yes the propaganda machine would go into overdrive upon her return – as the valiant “Valkyrie” who will save the Lyrans from the WOB.
Second, why would the Wolves in Exile Kill Her? It comes back to the same argument as to why Vlad would want her, then make her into a Warrior – they would only want to kill her if they are in a stare of war.
As the Canon has her becoming a warrior (despite all her limitations) so even though it is a huge plot hole …and I cannot believe it … I do not even know why Clan Wolf in Exile would allow Vlad to undertake a mission to get her …. Circle of equals by most of the Wolves High Command to stop him re: this decision first … then if he wins he can go get her … but yes it doesn’t make sense!
Third, ComStar killing her – probably not they have their hands tied with WOB for an assassination mission;
As for WOB Killing her – initially probably not – they would want to send a delegation to her first to see if she will attempt to reform the Star League (with them as members) – depending upon her answer then yes / no as to an assassination attempt.
Remember she could surprise everyone and act as the peacemaker - She could even attempt a cease fire not only within Lyran Space but IS wide / by attempting to communicate with the other House Lords to reiterate WOB aims – in that if they reform the star League, make WOB a member, they will stop the war (yet WOB will retain their protectorate).
So for the cost of the Protectorate and the reforming of a pomp and circumstance / gravy train / organisation that has no real power whatsoever they can stop the war.
Thus Star League reformed- everyone gets out of the Jihad – WOB get’s their protectorate – Katherine becomes the peacemaker of the IS (thus making it impossible for Victor to remove her for a second time) and becomes the next head of the Star League for her actions as the great peacemaker.
So yes, A can of worms does not begin to describe the possibilities that could eventuate if you take the story down this Alt. Universe Story Line!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/05/19 01:02 PM
72.176.171.47
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Quote:
Alaric Wolf? He has no relationship whatsoever to Vlad! he is an iron womb born individual
(the clan version of Lebensborn!!!!).
Gene-mother - Katherine Steiner –Davion
Gene Father – Victor Steiner-Davion
All the clan scientists need is the gene material of each individual and they can make him any time, as well as his brothers and his sisters if they want.
So the point is? this will not change history - except that his biological mother is now on the Lyran Throne and he is in Clan Wolf (perhaps even Khan at this stage)... this just adds to the juxtaposition of the story down the track .... if she can hold the throne to old age how will she react when she is presented with the knowledge that the clans have made her a son.
And what would happen if he demands the throne Clan Wolf Vs Lyrans in an all out battle of absorption
OR/-
What if she did marry and have children - thus upon her death (natural causes - old age) her natural children Vs her iron born child for the throne?
Makes for an interesting story(s) for the future .....
Bonfire Of Worlds you need to read that one...they make it clear he see's her as mommy dearest and will do anything she says.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/05/19 05:43 PM
1.158.130.13
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Quote from above - the last paragraph: "So yes, A can of worms does not begin to describe the possibilities that could eventuate if you take the story down this Alt. Universe Story Line!"
So, therefore this is an Alt. Universe and not in anyway a Canon variation ... so Bonfire of Worlds is no longer relevant ...
Though if he does have mommy issues in the Alt. future .... probably abandonment issues ..... toxic relationship?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/05/19 06:25 PM
1.158.130.13
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Regarding Alaric Wolf's claim to the Lyran Throne ....
I would assume every Great House would have a new law (as soon as Iron Born technology becomes common knowledge) in that it that states only natural born children from the rightful rulers can assume the throne.
If Iron born are considered to have a right to any throne then the clans can "create" any number of children at ant time in history who could have a right to the throne then they can go on a trial of assassination to kill off an entire family line so that "their" child becomes the new ruler of an IS realm.
Which is quite preposterous
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/05/19 07:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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The wolf in exile itself may not be blood hungry for Katherines death, but Khan Phelan would be. Katherine killed his mother, and wounded his father in that attack. And a few of the warriors close to him, would want her dead as well.
I will also point out, that killing Katherine after she becomes a warrior would show just how poorly skilled she was. Which could then be used to create issues with Vlad. Also, the Kell hounds that are in the ARDC would want her dead. Not sure if they would be allowed to use clan omnis to do some sort of head hunting mission or not, but it could well add to the story. Even just using their normal units could suffice.
Granted, since this isn't canon, it is very possible she becomes the first lord of a new government of the IS, leaving the Star League name to rot, as it seems destined to fail every time it is tried as the government.
It would not be keeping well with the story line up until that point, which is where some questions beg to be asked.
Some others come to mind as well.
Did Vlad want Katherine because he was attracted to her? Did he take her to piss Victor and the others off, by making her a warrior? Did he do so to piss off the other clans? Maybe use her to show up the Falcons as she tested out in a trial?
Does anyone even trust WOB at this point to even think of letting them stay as an organization at this point?
They did use nukes on more then one world and nation.
As a side thought, the clans may well decide WOB is to be wiped out completely for the use of nukes. No skills are needed, and a world that's nuked is beyond useless to anyone.
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Karagin
04/05/19 08:15 PM
72.176.171.47
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Quote:
Quote from above - the last paragraph: "So yes, A can of worms does not begin to describe the possibilities that could eventuate if you take the story down this Alt. Universe Story Line!"
So, therefore this is an Alt. Universe and not in anyway a Canon variation ... so Bonfire of Worlds is no longer relevant ...
Though if he does have mommy issues in the Alt. future .... probably abandonment issues ..... toxic relationship?
How is a canon book not relevant anymore? Do you have a source as to when that novel was ruled non-canon?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
04/05/19 08:17 PM
72.176.171.47
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First, the Inner Sphere isn't using the Iron Wombs to do anything, again do you have a canon source that says they are?. and second the Inner Sphere Houses have folks making claims all the time never comes to anything since most are either ignored or have a tendency to disappear if they become to noisy.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/06/19 01:20 AM
1.158.130.13
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Karagin, comprehension is required, this story is at a tangent to the original canon – thus it is an Alt. History Story from then on (anything beyond this point that was cannon no longer occurred). As to the Iron Wombs – please re-read what was written – I was discussing the Clans not the IS Great Houses. In that, what if the Clans were able to gain a genetic sample of a leader of a great house – and they “made” a child of that person's DNA – does that clan made child then have a claim to the throne? Therefore, all Great Houses – once it becomes common knowledge as to the Iron Wombs and their abilities – would establish law(s) to ensure that no clan made child of a leader of their Great House could ever assume the throne – only Husband / wife natural conception and natural birth child could assume the throne …
Sorry, I do not understand what you are attempting to discuss in regards to the following …
Quote “and second the Inner Sphere Houses have folks making claims all the time never comes to anything since most are either ignored or have a tendency to disappear if they become to noisy”.
ghostrider, Phelan may want to kill her yes, however, he is now part of the ARDC and any action on his part will have ramifications as to his father, the Kell Hounds and the ARDC (and on a side note remember the Kells are part of Heimdall – the loyal opposition – so how would that pan out?)’ .
If he kills her or even attempts to kill her, the Lyrans will have no choice but to declare war upon the ARDC, his Wolves in Exile and the Kell Hounds – so unless he wants to attempt to establish a new realm with either himself or his father as the new “King”, (that is if his father goes along with this) he will have to leave her alone.
Also consider this situation, if he does attempt to kill her and misses – his father and the ARDC may have to denounce him as a traitor in order to retain / save the ARDC and ensuring a new second civil was does not start within the Lyran realm during the Jihad - thus for his wolves it could end up as a war between Father Vs. Son – Kell Hounds Vs. Wolves in Exile … in order to stop a potential civil war.
Other questions
Did Vlad want Katherine because he was attracted to her? – Yes
Did he take her to piss Victor and the others off, by making her a warrior? – No
Maybe use her to show up the Falcons as she tested out in a trial? – if that was the case then why didn’t the Falcons attempt a trial of possession for her?
Quote: Does anyone even trust WOB at this point to even think of letting them stay as an organization at this point? They did use nukes on more than one world and nation.
You are correct no one trusts the WOB (as they have used nukes on more than one occasion) however consider the alternative – continuing the war with them continuing to use WMDs as well as Orbital bombardments, dropping large “rocks” on worlds – killing off worlds with WMDs and you have no idea where their technological bases are.
It is the best of a bad situation – no you don’t trust them – but it is better now that you stop the war – rebuild your forces – get your spies going to find their hidden manufacturing worlds / intelligence operations – then once you know everything about them – chop their knees off and decapitate them in one massive strike when they least expect it …. Ie. keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer – that is … be the friend now so that in the future you can be the villain and decapitate the WOB completely.
So we have a first WOB war … Katherine and Star League returns …. WOB protectorate established …. For a time peace … 5 worlds found / location of WOB command known …. One day in the not too distant future a massive war upon the 5 hidden worlds plus a massive strike at the WOB command to decapitate their CIC – then, hopefully, just a clean-up operation followed by all Great houses dividing up the former WOB protectorate as per pre-First WOB war borders.
As for the Clans continuing the War with the WOB – unknown but if they did continue the war, if they sustain severe casualties, I would assume Steiner, Rasalhague (ComStar?) and Kurita would take advantage of the situation and strike – to regain lost territory during the initial clan invasion.
So, in my opinion, it comes down to their ability to continue to fight (Number of soldiers, 'Mechs, Elementals, Aerospace Fighters etc.) – or do they also need time also to rebuild and then continue to fight with the WOB in the future?.
Makes for an interesting scenario? Thoughts ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/06/19 02:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Quote “and second the Inner Sphere Houses have folks making claims all the time never comes to anything since most are either ignored or have a tendency to disappear if they become to noisy”.
I believe he is saying that claims are made all the time. Those that seem to be more believable then a drunken patron, seems to have the government tell them to shut up or kill them outright.
Morgan Kell lost his arm and wife to the bomb Katherine used to kill Melissa. He pulled the ARDC out of her hands in protest, and from the sounds of it, the region would have ceded had he went that route. As the Alliance didn't have much choice but to allow it, I seriously doubt the Alliance could have declared war on the ARDC if he went after a criminal that plunged the entire FC into a civil war. One that most in the LA/LC/FC would see as a foreign agent at the time trying to get back into power. Public support for her may well turn their subjects against them for doing so.
And the Combine would probably back the ARDC if the Alliance did try to go to war with them, as well at the FS. Granted, with WOB doing their thing, it may all be moot.
The Falcons are not likely to try to gain a freeborn as a bondsman, but the whole ordeal may well have been done to show them, the family line does indeed breed warriors, even if not trained from birth. Not likely, but there is more background to this then just his Vlad's lust. The Crusaders would not like the idea that a freeborn may well be controlling their destiny, as they opposed Phelan doing so, and he showed them he was better then most of the trueborns. I doubt Katherine was even half as good. Well in real combat, not the faked trials. Refer to the Jade Falcons khan that Vlad killed in hand to hand combat. Critchal Or something like that.
One potential flaw with surrendering to the nuke droppers. That would mean the houses would have surrendered in the first war, when the nukes of all houses were being used.
If they did, then WOB would become the Leaders of a new League, or something else. No one to oppose them.
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Requiem
04/06/19 04:04 AM
1.158.130.13
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Public opinion for the current Archon, Peter, would be very low at this stage due to both his inability to stem the WOB assault as well as his apparent decision to give up the throne …
The arrival of Katherine (a native Lyran daughter returning from an imposed exile), however, as stated before would be seen as a breath of fresh air for the majority of the Lyrans - their Valkyrie returned to protect them ….
However, overall public support is not required at this stage – just the support of the Estates General, with their backing she is once more the Archon – she can fix her public image later when everything calms down and she gets her media machine up and working again.
The Combine may support the ARDC – however how does it help militarily – the WOB are attacking – the entire Clans Separate them (geographically) from one another – so overall the Combine cannot be considered to provide assistance – they would have to assist by attacking Skye – and how is this helping the ARDC? It just helps the DC gain more Lyran worlds.
As for the the Falcons, if they desired Steiner-Davion DNA – there would be trial of possession.
For Katherine to achieve rank she would have to go through a trial of position – can Vlad fake this – plus she doesn’t have a clan “name” for her to achieve the highest rank – Vlad again would have to make this official within the Clan – politically speaking cold he do this? And would the other clans accept a new freeborn’s DNA into the mix – even if she is the sister of Victor?
And if the Steiner-Davion name was added to the Wolf Clan’s DNA registry – wold it not be more probable they would want Victor’s not Katherine’s?
As for the issue of surrendering – they are not surrendering it is a mutual ceasefire agreement (big difference between the two)
The WOB is not being recognised as the superior “Great House” – they are being recognised as an equal to the existing “Great Houses”
(some-thing every great house will ensure to be a short lived protectorate – once they discover the WOBs hidden secrets – worlds etc – they will initiate plans to kill them off)
Thus the new Third Star League will be a League of equals – that is until Katherine starts plotting her ascent ion to the position of first among equals – the new “Cameron” as it was ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/06/19 07:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Any attack helps divert troops from going after the ARDC. Even just sending supplies would help.
Having Katherine test out and put the Falcons in a bad light, isn't about the DNA as much as trying to suggest an IS leader is better then most of the Falcon warriors. Especially, when that leader had no real combat training before they went into the clans. Might even suggest the training the wolves do is far superior to the Falcons, or any other clan.
Vlad can fake the trials needed for Katherine to advance. Weither the wolves go along with it for any time, depends on if Katherine can actually fight.
The surrender issue with WOB depends on if WOB decides they want a cease fire or peace. Without the ability to co-ordinate a counter strike, and the use of orbital bombardments/nukes, would they really want to let the IS leaders scheme and plot the get back at them?
Which might be a good time to point out that the black box tech wasn't utilized like it should have been when WOB attacked.
This would probably lead to WOB splintering, once they started to get the houses under their control. Power struggle.
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Karagin
04/06/19 09:59 PM
72.176.171.47
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Okay first off you offered YOUR opinion on things, NO where did make it clear you wanted an alternate universe setting on this, my point was a lot of things you are pushing have already be in some shape put into play by the canon novels mainly as references in Bonfire of Worlds.
Also if you want input, don't bite the hands around here, your ideas while interesting are not over all brand new to the discussions around here.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/06/19 10:39 PM
1.158.130.13
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Diverting Lyran troops in one thing – conquering Lyran worlds as a pretext to assisting the ARDC is another – as for supplies, what course will the DCMS navy take? The quickest would be through the Periphery shirting the Clan Invasion Corridor.
With regards to the Falcons, the question that should be asked is how they perceive her? A washed out leader who failed in her bid due to her lack of understanding military tactics due to her never been trained as a warrior? The Wolves – rather than creating a true warrior they created a fake warrior - so if she returns to the Lyran alliance as their Leader once more why should they care – a failed Khan should be removed and never allowed back – returning her to her Khan-ship over the Lyran realm just shows how inferior the Lyrans are!
It would take a successful war by the Lyrans over the Falcons before they will change their perception of her command her ability!
As for the WOB – what is it that their “prophet” reiterated as well as what is written in their “holy book of revelations” – In it it clearly states their aim is to be a member of the Star League – when offered this of course they will accept it – is it not what they live, hope and dream for! – they, the WOB, will not splinter (in my opinion) they (their Leader) will accept Katherine’s offer – as will all the Great House Lords – that is until the Great Lords know all the WOB secrets that is.
Karagin, can you please provide the title of the forum and where it is located regarding any other discussions as to what would happen if Katherine returned during the Jihad – and thus reclaimed the Archonship of the Lyran realm once more?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/06/19 10:49 PM
72.176.171.47
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Requiem, again YOUR opinion was stated, we went from there, if you want an alternate take on things state that from the start. Also go read the Bonfire book, she makes it clear her desire to rule is still there and Alric knows that. Now if you want to go over things let's look at a certain General running the Dragoons, called Mave, she is a product of ALL of the House Lords genetic makeup, so again your idea is not a new one, that even the Dragoons had the tech and know how to monkey with things and that is made clear in the Wolf Pack novel.
The Jihad timeline is a mess, NOTHING is set to show what actually happen and the source material runs from the unusable to the vague, in other words poorly handled push to reset the universe that ended up doing nothing but putting a game on life support right into the ICU ward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
04/06/19 11:11 PM
72.176.171.47
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Also the Dragoons used the iron wombs as well, so again the idea of non-Clan powers using the technology isn't that far fetched.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/06/19 11:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Did tactics just go out of the conversation?
You have to take worlds in order to assist others in a fight?
Simply hitting the enemy, and pinning them in place is no longer valid?
Or just destroying the forces and leaving the world so a new set of troops have to 'retake' the world and hold it from all, including pirates.
As for what an organization states it wants to do, and what the leaders in charge want to be done, isn't always the same. Hell, someone that gets some power like being able to dictate terms to someone like a house lord, when they were born a nobody, causes a lot of corruption to set in.
And again. Why be a member of some defunct organization, when you can run it all?
WOB Supremacy comes to mind. Even going as far as taking the clans and forcing them to submit comes to mind.
Karagin. The only issue with the IS using iron wombs is the developers don't like the IS using tech. They still haven't figured out how to make clan tech that is nothing more complicated then Star League tech.
The problem with better tech in game is like tv shows. Once out there, you can't take it back.
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Requiem
04/06/19 11:46 PM
1.158.130.13
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Do you mean Maeve Wolf? The genetic clone of Jamie Wolf …..
In that she was a clone it is the same to a certain degree …. But what I was discussing is the logical conclusion of this thought process … what happens in the Inner Sphere when it becomes common knowledge that not only are clones possible but they can create offspring based upon a small DNA sample. How will Inner Sphere law recognise these children – are they the responsibility of their genetic parents and do they have any rights as a child of their genetic parents.
Or, due their “unusual” births are they considered from a separate lineage – that their lineage is that of the Clans … and as such they have no legal standing within the Inner Sphere……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/07/19 12:21 AM
72.176.171.47
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I am pointing out that the ideas are NOT uncommon with in canon, and really the idea of clones is not new to the game, Maeve is a mix of Jamie AND the House Lord kids genetic make up, read the novel Wolf Pack it's explained in there.
The idea of advance medical tech wasn't new either for the Inner Sphere, recall in the novel Lethal Heritage Wolf makes mention that the Dragoon medical know how which was both Clan and SL tech helped Kell and his wife have Phelan.
The Inner Sphere won't care, as long as the person isn't claiming to be Hanse Davion, and recall that once the Clone is out of training they start to adjust to their surroundings like everyone else, so they are NOT the same no matter their make up genetically since environment shapes people as much as genes do. Over all just another human in the sea of billions if not trillions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/07/19 12:24 AM
1.158.130.13
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Would Morgan Kell condone the actions of his son in attempting to or even killing Katherine (thus starting a civil war again) – thus placing him, his family, the Kell Hounds, the ARDC and the world of Arc Royal at war with the Lyran people?
Would he condone the type of assistance the DCMS is offering – War and Conquest of Lyran worlds to ensure his own realm and the safety of his son his Clan Wolf in exile?
If he did accept the assistance of the DCMS would this not make him the puppet ruler of any realm he is able to carve out of Lyran space? – Thus a puppet of the Draconis Combine
As for the WOB they are more like the warrior monks of old – they are a very religious organisation – if their leader says stop, they will stop – so, what is the underlying aim of their “church” I thought it was being part of the Star League – and how do they see themselves - being the “Teutonic knight” defenders of the realm comes to mind.
Trying to rule it all is not part of their underlying dogma!
If Katherine is able to assist in reforming the Star League and their elevation to becoming a member of the Star League – in all reason I would think some of them would consider “canonising” her as a living saint.
So if the Wolves in exile did go against her, the entire WOB will go against the wolves in exile – and how long do you think the wolves would last – 3 months / 6 months at a maximum!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/07/19 12:29 AM
72.176.171.47
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Kell would have no say in what the Wolves in Exile do and given that Kell knows she had her mother killed he would more then likely pull the trigger him self.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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