Requiem
07/14/18 01:45 AM
58.175.193.140
|
Cannon
Katherine hired an assassin …. that assassin found his way into the Draconis Combine and its Capitol Luthien ….. the assassin then set a trap for Omika Kurita within her own garden …. Omika was subsequently murdered … in retaliation her father and brother hunted the assassin from one end of the Inner Sphere to the other end of the Inner Sphere … where and when the assassin thought himself safe was cornered and decapitated within one of his safe homes by Omika’s brother.
Following the end of the Civil War between that Katherine and Victor she was to be locked away for all time … however due to Clan Wolf’s IL-Khan’s intervention at that time she was given to Clan Wolf as a bondswoman in the hopes she would test out as a warrior …
The following relates, therefore, to “my opinion” on what would have been a more probable outcome for Katherine considering her sins and to whom she sinned against …
The Sin: ………………The Murder of Omika Kurita
Whom she Sinned Against:………………….. Coordinator Theodore Kurira - Omika’s father and also that of her brothers and the entire Kurita Family – The Draconis Combine and that of their people also.
When considering the level of guilt / responsibility consider the following – who is more guilty the arm that perpetrates the crime or the mind that conseved of the crime?
I would believe most would say the mind holds the balance of the guilt and the responsibility for the crime.
Then let us consider to whom the crime was perpetrated upon the Kurita family … Samurai!
Prior to the end of the Civil War Katherine was inviolate … however once she became part of Clan Wolf all this changed …
One must also remember the true story of the 40 Ronan Samurai … they waited years to gain vengeance upon their fallen master and when the time came they got it … killing the man who had wronged their master, forcing him to commit seppuku …..
I therefore propose that with Katherine now a part of Clan Wolf … House Kurita’s time of waiting is at an end …. one way or another once DEST agents had located her upon whichever Clan Wolf world they had her transferred to ….. Coordinator Theodore Kurita would order her abduction either by DEST agents or a full invasion by the entire Genyosha, he would have his vengeance ….
Once captured and returned to Luthien she would have been thrown into the deepest darkest cell … undergoing torture until one dark night where she would be taken to Omika’s garden and there decapitated.
Her crime was too great against house Kurita for her to be left alive … only her immediate transfer from Victor’s side to that of the Clan Home worlds could have delayed the inevitable ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
07/14/18 12:30 PM
66.74.61.223
|
Katherine was responsible for more deaths then just Omi. Most would try and say that is the right of a ruler.
I would agree with alot of the post, except the location of the execution.
The garden is supposed to be a place for peace, not dishonoring it with the execution of a criminal.
This act, would defile the garden's purpose, as well as destroy the entire thoughts behind any such garden. The assassination of Omi would be an argument that is was already defiled.
A war would happen if Katherine was taken, as the FC and Wolves (if that late in the story line) would not allow the DC to keep her. Executing her where found would be the most likely solution, as it would not allow state secrets to be gained by the DC. There would be demands for the act, but given she ordered the execution of Omi, there could not really be much weight behind it.
Even with Victor wanting to let her suffer, he could not be seen as giving in to the DC. That would reignite the civil war. Probably destroying the FC in the process. There would be no peace afterwards.
Some would see her as a hero for striking at the heart of the Kurita family, in both sides of the FC. Others would see her as a murderer, as she did that with so many others on both sides of the FC. Best she die quickly and quietly. Even just a strike from DEST would work.
But that does not promote a good story line, and shuts down alot of conflicts for the future.
|
Requiem
07/14/18 07:26 PM
58.175.193.140
|
The garden was dishonoured when Omika was assassinated in the first place … executing her in the same place has a strange sense of symmetry to it (closing the circle as it were) …. In executing Katherine there it, in my opinion, would exorcise any ghosts within the garden and allowing it to be returned to a garden of peace …. a very Japanese thing to do would you not agree?
Katherine is no longer a part of either the Lyran Alliance or the Federated Suns – she is now Clan Wolf …
how many would be allowed to know this, that she has been given to Clan Wolf?
Would this be a state secret?
And if it is what would the cover story be, that she is locked up in a prison hidden away on some desolate planet? …
So therefore, how could Victor then break this state secret and tell everyone that not only did he give her to Clan Wolf to stop a war but also in addition to this that now the DCMS have her?
Would he not be forced to retain the secret that she is still locked away some-where safe thus preserving the ignorance of the masses as to her true fate and thus ensuring no future conflict with Draconis Combine?
Thus Victor’s only option is to make a private request of the Coordinator at this stage?
There is also the point that the Lyran Alliance and the Federated Suns have just gone through a Civil War – they both have new rulers – and they are both in no shape to start another war with the Draconis Combine at this stage …. they need time to heal … and politicians being politicians they will lie to their people to keep the illusion that they are safe and they are healing, a point that Katherine is rotting away in a Draconic Combine cell would shatter the people’s illusions ….
Second, if she is taken in battle by Clan tradition she can be considered to be Isorla – the spoils of battle that warriors claim as their right, including bondsmen (Katherine) …. thus, there would be no war with Clan Wolf …. And Luthien bound she would go upon a DCMS victory by using the clan’s own traditions to gain the prize.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/01/19 05:44 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Katherine Steiner Davion, a second more realistic future for her could be the following …
Jihad era – she is now apparently a Clan Wolf Warrior
Tharkad is besieged by WOB and Archon Peter was cut off from the remaining realm
In 3071, Peter abdicated so that the Blakists could no longer symbolically control the Archon and in his place, he designated Adam Steiner as his successor. (an illegal act due to the law regarding the rules of succession!)
Question: What would happen if at this stage if Katherine returned and announced she is retaking her position of Archon in this dark age?
How many would follow her rather than Adam?
In all reality, I believe, most if not all of the Army would swear allegiance to her (despite some of them being on Victors side during the FedCom Civil War) – Peter has failed utterly and though Adam is in command of the Military he does not have the pedigree Katherine has to become Archon the military could very easily shift their allegiance to her given the extraordinary circumstances.
The Estates General could conceivably reinstate her rather than accept Peter's wish of making Adam the next Archon .... she would still have the political capitol to make it happen as Peter has none with the Estates General he has just given up and abdicated not only his right to rule but that of his son (Hanse) as well ... whereas she never gave up .... she fought to the last. She could very easily be seen as a returning Valkyrie to save them from the WOB if the media gets involved ....
At this point in time she could very conceivably stage a coup and retake the throne, and there is nothing Peter or Adam could do to stop it – that is unless they want to start a second civil war whilst simultaneously fighting off the WOB ..... so would they fight a two front war or fight for the Lyran people under her rule?
For me if Kurita has not killed her off by this stage this is what she would do – remaining with Wolves is just not in her character – once free from their shackles she could very conceivably re-take the throne as the Lyran people would still see her as their legitimate ruler as Victor (jealous of his sister) used his army to be rid of her and in doing so destroyed the Federated Commonwealth.
Viva La Re-write / Battletech 2.0
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/01/19 11:42 PM)
|
Requiem
04/01/19 11:53 PM
1.158.130.13
|
A twist of fate and she is Archon once more …
Then when you take it further …. Victor having to work together with Katherine to defeat the WOB
How many concessions would she demand of him ….?
And how many would prefer to see her once more on the throne … than Victors puppet ….
And Vlad of the Wolves his reaction? Probable she would leave a message he would understand, something like … “a Khan can be nothing else than a Khan, I return to take my rightful position once more ….”
Would the Wolves and the Lyrans then fight together against the WOB?
Thus Kells Wolves / Kells Hounds / Lyrans and Vlad’s Wolves fighting together?
Would make for a more interesting story this way
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/02/19 08:37 PM
1.158.130.13
|
How many times in history have we seen the exiled King / noble lord (or even more recently - politician) return in triumph during or after a climatic event that they can utilize to springboard their return?
So it is not beyond the realms of possibility that she could return at this stage … especially that she is now a warrior, trained by the clans, to fight in a ‘Mech (thus the image of her as a Valkyrie gains strength)
Though of more importance, how would the average Lyran citizen react to the with Katherine’s return.
Given the level of admiration you see in past books many would sigh a deep sigh of relief that a true Steiner was once more upon the throne. So how could the Estates General appoint anyone other than her to the position as Archon? You would have rioting on the streets upon multiple worlds …. Many mobiles might find themselves without a world due to revolution if they did not support her.
To me the return of Katherine would have provided for a greater plot twist than that of the canon provided.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/04/19 02:25 AM
1.158.130.13
|
So how does Katherine return to Lyran Space? … what if ….
A former Lyran Noble who was a supporter of Katherine’s during the Civil War came to know in advance of the abdication …..
With the majority of the Lyran Government upon Tharkad …. However, a minority of the Estates General members could come together, even in this turbulent time, together with rogue Loki operatives in a plot to either send a regular Lyran military into Clan Wolf Space (as I would assume Loki would be keeping tabs upon her location (as best they could)) / a mercenary unit / or a lone Loki team with instructions to kidnap her (in a similar way that her bother was kidnapped ie. apparently killed off)
Once successful they could smuggle her back to Lyran space.
To put a twist into the story –what if Kell’s Clan Wolf in Exile become aware of the plot? What would they do? Stop it if they can? In the open or in secret? Try to kidnap her also to stop her retaking the throne ….
If in secret, if they do get caught by Vlad’s Wolves – the consequences would be high ….
Though, somehow she slips the net and is able to meet up with the Free Estates General Members (all nobles who supported her during the Civil War) – there once the decree of abdication becomes known a second decree is sent to all Lyran worlds and military units that she is reassuming her rightful position as Archon.
Who would side with the “general of the army” and who would side with the “former” Archon?
It makes for an interesting plot twist rather than the simplified and illegal action that was forced upon us ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/04/19 09:48 PM
66.74.60.165
|
First question would be how many of the Estates supported her because they had no real choice? With me or against me sentiment.
Second question. Why didn't the wolves in exile try to kill her? Or use her as a means to cause issues in Vlad's wolves. Katherine was not a warrior when taken, so why would the clans bother training her as one that late in life? That isn't the clan traditions. Freeborn no less. (IE, issues with the crusaders thinking.)
Along with this, there would be 'rumors' of the trial of position being rigged, as few would believe a non warrior could be taught to become one, and beat a clan warrior. Might be a logic hole in the canon storyline.
Who would side with the “general of the army” and who would side with the “former” Archon?
This is a can of worms.
How many would see her willfully going with the Vlad, as betraying her own people? How many would see it as a sacrifice?
Most would have to think she is tainted by the clan ways of thinking, and would be more frightened by her actions, as the Lyrans fought against the clans to avoid becoming part of the clans. Now she wants them to willingly join? Or so should the propaganda lines would be really harping on.
As there was no fight for Vlad to take her, that would play very well into the hands of those that want her to stay out.
Third. Would any of comstar or WOB try to kill her? WOB would know she would be trouble for them, as she was trained by the clans for a while. Comstar might want her dead from the Civil war issues, or just to keep the clans from becoming better accepted in the IS.
Some might actually help her, as the 'honor' of the clans should counter a lot of the political backstabbing in the IS.
|
Karagin
04/04/19 10:20 PM
72.176.171.47
|
Y'all do you realize that Vlad and her had a son who is currently the head of the Wolf Empire right?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/05/19 03:34 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Alaric Wolf? He has no relationship whatsoever to Vlad! he is an iron womb born individual
(the clan version of Lebensborn!!!!).
Gene-mother - Katherine Steiner –Davion
Gene Father – Victor Steiner-Davion
All the clan scientists need is the gene material of each individual and they can make him any time, as well as his brothers and his sisters if they want.
So the point is? this will not change history - except that his biological mother is now on the Lyran Throne and he is in Clan Wolf (perhaps even Khan at this stage)... this just adds to the juxtaposition of the story down the track .... if she can hold the throne to old age how will she react when she is presented with the knowledge that the clans have made her a son.
And what would happen if he demands the throne Clan Wolf Vs Lyrans in an all out battle of absorption
OR/-
What if she did marry and have children - thus upon her death (natural causes - old age) her natural children Vs her iron born child for the throne?
Makes for an interesting story(s) for the future .....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/05/19 04:50 AM
1.158.130.13
|
ghostrider,
First, go back to the notes regarding the FedCom Civil War – then ask how many were happy that Victor forced his brother Peter on them.
Then ask how may are currently happy with Peter’s performance so far during the Jihad and how many are happy that he has decided to abdicate not only himself but that of child Hanse as well.
Then there is the decision regarding handing over the Throne to the General of the Army (Nt: he is a commoner - he has no real pedigree and no title to the throne whatsoever!!!).
Plus they are bypassing how many Steiners to give Adam the throne (so you need to ask how many political favours these people who were bypassed have with others within the Estates General, and how many will use them now to see that both Adam and Peter fail due to the slight they have received for not being chosen as the next Archon (especially when they were on the list of succession before even Adam was even considered).
As a member of the Estated General (remember to be a member of the Estates General you must have a minimum Rank Title to be a member, thus they are snobs /elitists of the highest level) – so, very (censored) off …… (putting it mildly).
Thus most if not all would be not happy …. and given Katherine is one of their own … so the likelihood they would choose her over Adam I would consider is very high.
Plus information / rumour would have gotten out that Victor “gave” his sister to the Clans – she did not go willing, she was just given away – he did it to get rid of her!
Thus getting her bask would be seen as a rescue mission – especially in this dark times of the Jihad where their current Archon can be considered to be a dismal failure by the common man and those of rank and title.
So, yes the propaganda machine would go into overdrive upon her return – as the valiant “Valkyrie” who will save the Lyrans from the WOB.
Second, why would the Wolves in Exile Kill Her? It comes back to the same argument as to why Vlad would want her, then make her into a Warrior – they would only want to kill her if they are in a stare of war.
As the Canon has her becoming a warrior (despite all her limitations) so even though it is a huge plot hole …and I cannot believe it … I do not even know why Clan Wolf in Exile would allow Vlad to undertake a mission to get her …. Circle of equals by most of the Wolves High Command to stop him re: this decision first … then if he wins he can go get her … but yes it doesn’t make sense!
Third, ComStar killing her – probably not they have their hands tied with WOB for an assassination mission;
As for WOB Killing her – initially probably not – they would want to send a delegation to her first to see if she will attempt to reform the Star League (with them as members) – depending upon her answer then yes / no as to an assassination attempt.
Remember she could surprise everyone and act as the peacemaker - She could even attempt a cease fire not only within Lyran Space but IS wide / by attempting to communicate with the other House Lords to reiterate WOB aims – in that if they reform the star League, make WOB a member, they will stop the war (yet WOB will retain their protectorate).
So for the cost of the Protectorate and the reforming of a pomp and circumstance / gravy train / organisation that has no real power whatsoever they can stop the war.
Thus Star League reformed- everyone gets out of the Jihad – WOB get’s their protectorate – Katherine becomes the peacemaker of the IS (thus making it impossible for Victor to remove her for a second time) and becomes the next head of the Star League for her actions as the great peacemaker.
So yes, A can of worms does not begin to describe the possibilities that could eventuate if you take the story down this Alt. Universe Story Line!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
04/05/19 01:02 PM
72.176.171.47
|
Quote:
Alaric Wolf? He has no relationship whatsoever to Vlad! he is an iron womb born individual
(the clan version of Lebensborn!!!!).
Gene-mother - Katherine Steiner –Davion
Gene Father – Victor Steiner-Davion
All the clan scientists need is the gene material of each individual and they can make him any time, as well as his brothers and his sisters if they want.
So the point is? this will not change history - except that his biological mother is now on the Lyran Throne and he is in Clan Wolf (perhaps even Khan at this stage)... this just adds to the juxtaposition of the story down the track .... if she can hold the throne to old age how will she react when she is presented with the knowledge that the clans have made her a son.
And what would happen if he demands the throne Clan Wolf Vs Lyrans in an all out battle of absorption
OR/-
What if she did marry and have children - thus upon her death (natural causes - old age) her natural children Vs her iron born child for the throne?
Makes for an interesting story(s) for the future .....
Bonfire Of Worlds you need to read that one...they make it clear he see's her as mommy dearest and will do anything she says.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/05/19 05:43 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Quote from above - the last paragraph: "So yes, A can of worms does not begin to describe the possibilities that could eventuate if you take the story down this Alt. Universe Story Line!"
So, therefore this is an Alt. Universe and not in anyway a Canon variation ... so Bonfire of Worlds is no longer relevant ...
Though if he does have mommy issues in the Alt. future .... probably abandonment issues ..... toxic relationship?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/05/19 06:25 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Regarding Alaric Wolf's claim to the Lyran Throne ....
I would assume every Great House would have a new law (as soon as Iron Born technology becomes common knowledge) in that it that states only natural born children from the rightful rulers can assume the throne.
If Iron born are considered to have a right to any throne then the clans can "create" any number of children at ant time in history who could have a right to the throne then they can go on a trial of assassination to kill off an entire family line so that "their" child becomes the new ruler of an IS realm.
Which is quite preposterous
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/05/19 07:53 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The wolf in exile itself may not be blood hungry for Katherines death, but Khan Phelan would be. Katherine killed his mother, and wounded his father in that attack. And a few of the warriors close to him, would want her dead as well.
I will also point out, that killing Katherine after she becomes a warrior would show just how poorly skilled she was. Which could then be used to create issues with Vlad. Also, the Kell hounds that are in the ARDC would want her dead. Not sure if they would be allowed to use clan omnis to do some sort of head hunting mission or not, but it could well add to the story. Even just using their normal units could suffice.
Granted, since this isn't canon, it is very possible she becomes the first lord of a new government of the IS, leaving the Star League name to rot, as it seems destined to fail every time it is tried as the government.
It would not be keeping well with the story line up until that point, which is where some questions beg to be asked.
Some others come to mind as well.
Did Vlad want Katherine because he was attracted to her? Did he take her to piss Victor and the others off, by making her a warrior? Did he do so to piss off the other clans? Maybe use her to show up the Falcons as she tested out in a trial?
Does anyone even trust WOB at this point to even think of letting them stay as an organization at this point?
They did use nukes on more then one world and nation.
As a side thought, the clans may well decide WOB is to be wiped out completely for the use of nukes. No skills are needed, and a world that's nuked is beyond useless to anyone.
|
Karagin
04/05/19 08:15 PM
72.176.171.47
|
Quote:
Quote from above - the last paragraph: "So yes, A can of worms does not begin to describe the possibilities that could eventuate if you take the story down this Alt. Universe Story Line!"
So, therefore this is an Alt. Universe and not in anyway a Canon variation ... so Bonfire of Worlds is no longer relevant ...
Though if he does have mommy issues in the Alt. future .... probably abandonment issues ..... toxic relationship?
How is a canon book not relevant anymore? Do you have a source as to when that novel was ruled non-canon?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
04/05/19 08:17 PM
72.176.171.47
|
First, the Inner Sphere isn't using the Iron Wombs to do anything, again do you have a canon source that says they are?. and second the Inner Sphere Houses have folks making claims all the time never comes to anything since most are either ignored or have a tendency to disappear if they become to noisy.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/06/19 01:20 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Karagin, comprehension is required, this story is at a tangent to the original canon – thus it is an Alt. History Story from then on (anything beyond this point that was cannon no longer occurred). As to the Iron Wombs – please re-read what was written – I was discussing the Clans not the IS Great Houses. In that, what if the Clans were able to gain a genetic sample of a leader of a great house – and they “made” a child of that person's DNA – does that clan made child then have a claim to the throne? Therefore, all Great Houses – once it becomes common knowledge as to the Iron Wombs and their abilities – would establish law(s) to ensure that no clan made child of a leader of their Great House could ever assume the throne – only Husband / wife natural conception and natural birth child could assume the throne …
Sorry, I do not understand what you are attempting to discuss in regards to the following …
Quote “and second the Inner Sphere Houses have folks making claims all the time never comes to anything since most are either ignored or have a tendency to disappear if they become to noisy”.
ghostrider, Phelan may want to kill her yes, however, he is now part of the ARDC and any action on his part will have ramifications as to his father, the Kell Hounds and the ARDC (and on a side note remember the Kells are part of Heimdall – the loyal opposition – so how would that pan out?)’ .
If he kills her or even attempts to kill her, the Lyrans will have no choice but to declare war upon the ARDC, his Wolves in Exile and the Kell Hounds – so unless he wants to attempt to establish a new realm with either himself or his father as the new “King”, (that is if his father goes along with this) he will have to leave her alone.
Also consider this situation, if he does attempt to kill her and misses – his father and the ARDC may have to denounce him as a traitor in order to retain / save the ARDC and ensuring a new second civil was does not start within the Lyran realm during the Jihad - thus for his wolves it could end up as a war between Father Vs. Son – Kell Hounds Vs. Wolves in Exile … in order to stop a potential civil war.
Other questions
Did Vlad want Katherine because he was attracted to her? – Yes
Did he take her to piss Victor and the others off, by making her a warrior? – No
Maybe use her to show up the Falcons as she tested out in a trial? – if that was the case then why didn’t the Falcons attempt a trial of possession for her?
Quote: Does anyone even trust WOB at this point to even think of letting them stay as an organization at this point? They did use nukes on more than one world and nation.
You are correct no one trusts the WOB (as they have used nukes on more than one occasion) however consider the alternative – continuing the war with them continuing to use WMDs as well as Orbital bombardments, dropping large “rocks” on worlds – killing off worlds with WMDs and you have no idea where their technological bases are.
It is the best of a bad situation – no you don’t trust them – but it is better now that you stop the war – rebuild your forces – get your spies going to find their hidden manufacturing worlds / intelligence operations – then once you know everything about them – chop their knees off and decapitate them in one massive strike when they least expect it …. Ie. keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer – that is … be the friend now so that in the future you can be the villain and decapitate the WOB completely.
So we have a first WOB war … Katherine and Star League returns …. WOB protectorate established …. For a time peace … 5 worlds found / location of WOB command known …. One day in the not too distant future a massive war upon the 5 hidden worlds plus a massive strike at the WOB command to decapitate their CIC – then, hopefully, just a clean-up operation followed by all Great houses dividing up the former WOB protectorate as per pre-First WOB war borders.
As for the Clans continuing the War with the WOB – unknown but if they did continue the war, if they sustain severe casualties, I would assume Steiner, Rasalhague (ComStar?) and Kurita would take advantage of the situation and strike – to regain lost territory during the initial clan invasion.
So, in my opinion, it comes down to their ability to continue to fight (Number of soldiers, 'Mechs, Elementals, Aerospace Fighters etc.) – or do they also need time also to rebuild and then continue to fight with the WOB in the future?.
Makes for an interesting scenario? Thoughts ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/06/19 02:45 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Quote “and second the Inner Sphere Houses have folks making claims all the time never comes to anything since most are either ignored or have a tendency to disappear if they become to noisy”.
I believe he is saying that claims are made all the time. Those that seem to be more believable then a drunken patron, seems to have the government tell them to shut up or kill them outright.
Morgan Kell lost his arm and wife to the bomb Katherine used to kill Melissa. He pulled the ARDC out of her hands in protest, and from the sounds of it, the region would have ceded had he went that route. As the Alliance didn't have much choice but to allow it, I seriously doubt the Alliance could have declared war on the ARDC if he went after a criminal that plunged the entire FC into a civil war. One that most in the LA/LC/FC would see as a foreign agent at the time trying to get back into power. Public support for her may well turn their subjects against them for doing so.
And the Combine would probably back the ARDC if the Alliance did try to go to war with them, as well at the FS. Granted, with WOB doing their thing, it may all be moot.
The Falcons are not likely to try to gain a freeborn as a bondsman, but the whole ordeal may well have been done to show them, the family line does indeed breed warriors, even if not trained from birth. Not likely, but there is more background to this then just his Vlad's lust. The Crusaders would not like the idea that a freeborn may well be controlling their destiny, as they opposed Phelan doing so, and he showed them he was better then most of the trueborns. I doubt Katherine was even half as good. Well in real combat, not the faked trials. Refer to the Jade Falcons khan that Vlad killed in hand to hand combat. Critchal Or something like that.
One potential flaw with surrendering to the nuke droppers. That would mean the houses would have surrendered in the first war, when the nukes of all houses were being used.
If they did, then WOB would become the Leaders of a new League, or something else. No one to oppose them.
|
Requiem
04/06/19 04:04 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Public opinion for the current Archon, Peter, would be very low at this stage due to both his inability to stem the WOB assault as well as his apparent decision to give up the throne …
The arrival of Katherine (a native Lyran daughter returning from an imposed exile), however, as stated before would be seen as a breath of fresh air for the majority of the Lyrans - their Valkyrie returned to protect them ….
However, overall public support is not required at this stage – just the support of the Estates General, with their backing she is once more the Archon – she can fix her public image later when everything calms down and she gets her media machine up and working again.
The Combine may support the ARDC – however how does it help militarily – the WOB are attacking – the entire Clans Separate them (geographically) from one another – so overall the Combine cannot be considered to provide assistance – they would have to assist by attacking Skye – and how is this helping the ARDC? It just helps the DC gain more Lyran worlds.
As for the the Falcons, if they desired Steiner-Davion DNA – there would be trial of possession.
For Katherine to achieve rank she would have to go through a trial of position – can Vlad fake this – plus she doesn’t have a clan “name” for her to achieve the highest rank – Vlad again would have to make this official within the Clan – politically speaking cold he do this? And would the other clans accept a new freeborn’s DNA into the mix – even if she is the sister of Victor?
And if the Steiner-Davion name was added to the Wolf Clan’s DNA registry – wold it not be more probable they would want Victor’s not Katherine’s?
As for the issue of surrendering – they are not surrendering it is a mutual ceasefire agreement (big difference between the two)
The WOB is not being recognised as the superior “Great House” – they are being recognised as an equal to the existing “Great Houses”
(some-thing every great house will ensure to be a short lived protectorate – once they discover the WOBs hidden secrets – worlds etc – they will initiate plans to kill them off)
Thus the new Third Star League will be a League of equals – that is until Katherine starts plotting her ascent ion to the position of first among equals – the new “Cameron” as it was ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/06/19 07:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Any attack helps divert troops from going after the ARDC. Even just sending supplies would help.
Having Katherine test out and put the Falcons in a bad light, isn't about the DNA as much as trying to suggest an IS leader is better then most of the Falcon warriors. Especially, when that leader had no real combat training before they went into the clans. Might even suggest the training the wolves do is far superior to the Falcons, or any other clan.
Vlad can fake the trials needed for Katherine to advance. Weither the wolves go along with it for any time, depends on if Katherine can actually fight.
The surrender issue with WOB depends on if WOB decides they want a cease fire or peace. Without the ability to co-ordinate a counter strike, and the use of orbital bombardments/nukes, would they really want to let the IS leaders scheme and plot the get back at them?
Which might be a good time to point out that the black box tech wasn't utilized like it should have been when WOB attacked.
This would probably lead to WOB splintering, once they started to get the houses under their control. Power struggle.
|
Karagin
04/06/19 09:59 PM
72.176.171.47
|
Okay first off you offered YOUR opinion on things, NO where did make it clear you wanted an alternate universe setting on this, my point was a lot of things you are pushing have already be in some shape put into play by the canon novels mainly as references in Bonfire of Worlds.
Also if you want input, don't bite the hands around here, your ideas while interesting are not over all brand new to the discussions around here.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/06/19 10:39 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Diverting Lyran troops in one thing – conquering Lyran worlds as a pretext to assisting the ARDC is another – as for supplies, what course will the DCMS navy take? The quickest would be through the Periphery shirting the Clan Invasion Corridor.
With regards to the Falcons, the question that should be asked is how they perceive her? A washed out leader who failed in her bid due to her lack of understanding military tactics due to her never been trained as a warrior? The Wolves – rather than creating a true warrior they created a fake warrior - so if she returns to the Lyran alliance as their Leader once more why should they care – a failed Khan should be removed and never allowed back – returning her to her Khan-ship over the Lyran realm just shows how inferior the Lyrans are!
It would take a successful war by the Lyrans over the Falcons before they will change their perception of her command her ability!
As for the WOB – what is it that their “prophet” reiterated as well as what is written in their “holy book of revelations” – In it it clearly states their aim is to be a member of the Star League – when offered this of course they will accept it – is it not what they live, hope and dream for! – they, the WOB, will not splinter (in my opinion) they (their Leader) will accept Katherine’s offer – as will all the Great House Lords – that is until the Great Lords know all the WOB secrets that is.
Karagin, can you please provide the title of the forum and where it is located regarding any other discussions as to what would happen if Katherine returned during the Jihad – and thus reclaimed the Archonship of the Lyran realm once more?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
04/06/19 10:49 PM
72.176.171.47
|
Requiem, again YOUR opinion was stated, we went from there, if you want an alternate take on things state that from the start. Also go read the Bonfire book, she makes it clear her desire to rule is still there and Alric knows that. Now if you want to go over things let's look at a certain General running the Dragoons, called Mave, she is a product of ALL of the House Lords genetic makeup, so again your idea is not a new one, that even the Dragoons had the tech and know how to monkey with things and that is made clear in the Wolf Pack novel.
The Jihad timeline is a mess, NOTHING is set to show what actually happen and the source material runs from the unusable to the vague, in other words poorly handled push to reset the universe that ended up doing nothing but putting a game on life support right into the ICU ward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
04/06/19 11:11 PM
72.176.171.47
|
Also the Dragoons used the iron wombs as well, so again the idea of non-Clan powers using the technology isn't that far fetched.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
04/06/19 11:29 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Did tactics just go out of the conversation?
You have to take worlds in order to assist others in a fight?
Simply hitting the enemy, and pinning them in place is no longer valid?
Or just destroying the forces and leaving the world so a new set of troops have to 'retake' the world and hold it from all, including pirates.
As for what an organization states it wants to do, and what the leaders in charge want to be done, isn't always the same. Hell, someone that gets some power like being able to dictate terms to someone like a house lord, when they were born a nobody, causes a lot of corruption to set in.
And again. Why be a member of some defunct organization, when you can run it all?
WOB Supremacy comes to mind. Even going as far as taking the clans and forcing them to submit comes to mind.
Karagin. The only issue with the IS using iron wombs is the developers don't like the IS using tech. They still haven't figured out how to make clan tech that is nothing more complicated then Star League tech.
The problem with better tech in game is like tv shows. Once out there, you can't take it back.
|
Requiem
04/06/19 11:46 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Do you mean Maeve Wolf? The genetic clone of Jamie Wolf …..
In that she was a clone it is the same to a certain degree …. But what I was discussing is the logical conclusion of this thought process … what happens in the Inner Sphere when it becomes common knowledge that not only are clones possible but they can create offspring based upon a small DNA sample. How will Inner Sphere law recognise these children – are they the responsibility of their genetic parents and do they have any rights as a child of their genetic parents.
Or, due their “unusual” births are they considered from a separate lineage – that their lineage is that of the Clans … and as such they have no legal standing within the Inner Sphere……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
04/07/19 12:21 AM
72.176.171.47
|
I am pointing out that the ideas are NOT uncommon with in canon, and really the idea of clones is not new to the game, Maeve is a mix of Jamie AND the House Lord kids genetic make up, read the novel Wolf Pack it's explained in there.
The idea of advance medical tech wasn't new either for the Inner Sphere, recall in the novel Lethal Heritage Wolf makes mention that the Dragoon medical know how which was both Clan and SL tech helped Kell and his wife have Phelan.
The Inner Sphere won't care, as long as the person isn't claiming to be Hanse Davion, and recall that once the Clone is out of training they start to adjust to their surroundings like everyone else, so they are NOT the same no matter their make up genetically since environment shapes people as much as genes do. Over all just another human in the sea of billions if not trillions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/07/19 12:24 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Would Morgan Kell condone the actions of his son in attempting to or even killing Katherine (thus starting a civil war again) – thus placing him, his family, the Kell Hounds, the ARDC and the world of Arc Royal at war with the Lyran people?
Would he condone the type of assistance the DCMS is offering – War and Conquest of Lyran worlds to ensure his own realm and the safety of his son his Clan Wolf in exile?
If he did accept the assistance of the DCMS would this not make him the puppet ruler of any realm he is able to carve out of Lyran space? – Thus a puppet of the Draconis Combine
As for the WOB they are more like the warrior monks of old – they are a very religious organisation – if their leader says stop, they will stop – so, what is the underlying aim of their “church” I thought it was being part of the Star League – and how do they see themselves - being the “Teutonic knight” defenders of the realm comes to mind.
Trying to rule it all is not part of their underlying dogma!
If Katherine is able to assist in reforming the Star League and their elevation to becoming a member of the Star League – in all reason I would think some of them would consider “canonising” her as a living saint.
So if the Wolves in exile did go against her, the entire WOB will go against the wolves in exile – and how long do you think the wolves would last – 3 months / 6 months at a maximum!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
04/07/19 12:29 AM
72.176.171.47
|
Kell would have no say in what the Wolves in Exile do and given that Kell knows she had her mother killed he would more then likely pull the trigger him self.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
04/07/19 12:30 AM
72.176.171.47
|
Also the people of the Lyran Commonwealth have a new Archon in Adam, so they won't be shedding too much in the tears department over her being killed off.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/07/19 12:43 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Karagin, Please read what I am discussing, it is NOT about a medical procedure to create life. It is about the legality of the issue once born – who’s child is it legally? – the genetic parents (the House Lords) or the state that made the child (the Clans) this is what is being discussed …. OK
So, I guess the novel and the canon are at loggerheads once more with regards to Maeve and what went into the genetic soup to make her.
Quote: “The Inner Sphere won't care”
I beg to disagree … the people WILL DEFINITELY CARE that a clone / iron born substitute is being placed on the throne …. This WILL lead to another Civil War – this time with WMDs as the issue is going against everything the people believe in.
They are definitely NOT “just another human in the sea of billions if not trillions”, they are Iron Born and as such not natural.... no person within the IS will ever accept an Iron Born as their Lord - as the majority would view this procedure with abhorrence.
So, If the Khan of the Wolves in Exile kills Katherine the Lyran people would demand a war upon them – in clan terms a “War of annihilation”
Also the Kell Hounds would have to assist the Lyrans in the wolves destruction – to do nothing would paint them with the same brush of treason. Thus we are in a situation of Father Vs. Son.
As discussed above we are discussing Katherine replacing Adam – Kathering becoming the Archon once more - Adam’s candidature for Archon before the Estates General being rejected (his pedigree is too distant from the throne to be considered for Archon – no matter what the last Archon has requested)
Also part of this discussion revolves around her surviving the assassination attempt by the Wolves! what's next?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/07/19 12:59 AM)
|
Karagin
04/07/19 12:56 AM
72.176.171.47
|
I am reading what you wrote and I pointing out there is more to things then you seem to be willing to entertain. Clones are not going to be 100% the same person as who they are made from, different factors come into play, their up bring, how they react to things and how the environment reacts to their reactions ALL need to be factored in.
And many in the Inner Sphere would not see the iron wombs as abhorrence given that it's no different the invetro when you break it down. They won't care since first it's not going to be a replace to the tried and true method, second for most worlds it would be a godsend in that they would the chance for the population to grow faster. The military would love it since they could get better soldiers thus have better armies. Hell that alone would have several of the houses jumping to lay their hands on it.
Legally, that is a question that would differ from world to world, house to house, recall in the FWL many worlds hate cybernetic implants, so "cyborgs" for the lack of a better word would be seen as far more abhorrent then a clone would. And how would the average person even known the clone is a clone? Again environment will make changes to the clones, thus again how would Joe Average on Bone-Norman know a clone unless he was told the person was a clone?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
04/07/19 01:16 AM
1.158.130.13
|
The issues being discussed are more complicated than this, and delve into “unsavory” topics that occurred in the mid 20th Century.
It also relates to command - the super versus the normal
This topic is best discussed elsewhere.
In Battletech terms, however, they go into how the Clans are ruled - and how they rule their people in comparison to how the Inner Sphere rule themselves - and how the their people are ruled.
With the Inner Sphere people their perception is that the Clans Subjugation of everything they consider normal comes to mind - they will become slaves ... loss of all freedom of choice if a clone is put on the throne.
There is no way they would permit this.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/07/19 02:06 AM)
|
Cray
04/07/19 01:01 PM
97.101.136.19
|
Quote:
The only issue with the IS using iron wombs is the developers don't like the IS using tech.
The reasons the Inner Sphere doesn't use iron wombs has nothing to do with developer preference. None of us care if the IS used iron wombs, it just doesn't fit the cultures of the Inner Sphere.
The most likely place for the Inner Sphere to use iron wombs would be on wealthy planets' fertility clinics where women don't want to deal with pregnancy. The motivations are rather different than the Clans'.
Quote:
They still haven't figured out how to make clan tech that is nothing more complicated then Star League tech.
You mean, aside from Clantech being a century more advanced than Star League Civil War-era technology?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
ghostrider
04/08/19 02:05 AM
66.74.60.165
|
I guess the idea of something like a jump drive having a problem, taking out Katherine isn't something that was thought about to remove her from being a threat again?
WOB is like a lot of powers in history. They say they have noble goals, but alls it takes is one person to get in power, and changes everything. Not saying it would in your alt, but the potential is there. NO organization is pure like that. Comstar wasn't even before the 3000's. I mean, there goal was to preserve technology, and not get involved in IS politics.. Like that happened.
The IS did have regeneration equipment in the past, so cloning isn't really that far fetched. As for genetic modified leaders... that is done in the slow way. Leaders with great tactical skills, tend to be place higher then those that can play a piano. So they tend to marry others with abilities they want their children to have. It is history of humanity.
And the idea of maybe someone changing some DNA or some such in the hospital, or even Comstar doing something secretly is possible. They should have cloning and such as it should still have been examples on earth, even with the Amaris war.
They are definitely NOT “just another human in the sea of billions if not trillions”, they are Iron Born and as such not natural.... no person within the IS will ever accept an Iron Born as their Lord - as the majority would view this procedure with abhorrence.
In the canonverse, this is completely inaccurate. There are those that actively flocked to the clans, to try and get an edge up on others. The clanners rejected most of them, but Phelan accepted a clan leader. Others have as well.
Katherine accepted Vlad as her leader. Fanatical? That is the key.
The discussion of why the IS has not made clantech in the 3100's is why it seems the developers didn't want the IS to make or have it. Taking Huntress was a treasure trove of tech, as it is doubtful the Jaguars would have destroyed it before they lost some facilities. Tech from one house seems to be available to other houses within a few years. I believe you cited costs in the one thread.
In the long run, building your own means you have a constant, semi-reliable supply, and gets cheaper then buying it from others.
|
Requiem
04/08/19 05:19 AM
1.158.130.13
|
The following is “in my opinion”,
The death of Katherine in such an anticlimactic manner, especially villainy such as hers, could / would not stand – her character evokes strong emotions within the Battletech community.
Returning her to the Lyran throne, I am convinced, would have sparked renewed interest in the game and the Jihad era – I can only consider this an opportunity lost for the canon history.
As for the WOB for all their good intentions they are zealots – writing them into the cannon history with this hard core philosophy was a mistake – WOB should have just been an orthodox ComStar and by making them into extremists it nearly destroyed the game.
With the return of Katherine, WOB as an orthodox ComStar, and the absence of all WMDs, orbital strikes, asteroid strikes et al …. The continuation of the game together with new players, in my opinion, would have been at a more positive state than it is now.
A zealot WOB and WMDs has irrevocably damaged the game and the brand.
Yes I agree, at some time genetic manipulation and cloning will become part of the IS – however only for the wealthy – and to be kept hidden from the average person – The culture of the average IS person is not ready for the introduction of such technology – if discovered the individual would be vilified.
Though, on a side note how would the Lyran people view Katherine if she was either pregnant or with an infant child? …. Shock would be an understatement …. Sympathy, maybe …. It would be interesting to consider the Lyran people’s reaction… so, could the regime change still take place even?
Can I ask – Who flocked to the Clans in an effort to gain power over another IS power and when? As I cannot remember reading of any IS power even contemplating this during the initial invasion – it was only with the destruction of the Jaguars did the Cats become an independent power within the DC (though they were in no way a part of the DCMS). And it was not until way in the future did IS leaders start to form mutually beneficial agreements towards a common agenda with individual Clans, though, in my opinion, this go’s against the ethos of most Clans sense of morality.
As for Phelan – they checked his DNA and found that his DNA related to that of named individual’s DNA who fought with N Kerensky - thus they accepted him due to both his fighting skills and his DNA – fighting skills alone would never have allowed him to become a Khan. This is an underlying tenant of the Clans (in comparison to the IS) in that you must have the correct DNA – otherwise you are either a second or third rate individual.
Katherine was forced to accept Vlad as her leader when Victor just gave her to Vlad – something she would have hated …. And this may be one of the reasons why Alaric never had Vlad’s DVA.
As for the proliferation of Clantech within the IS (even after 100 years since their initial invasion) technology remains a sore point with all gamers – there should have been a closing of the gap as from Huntress forward – and then by 3100 to 3125 parity of technology.
Though when you look at the WOB technology it must also be asked as to why this technology was not widely distributed throughout the IS post Jihad …. Another lost opportunity by the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/08/19 03:38 PM
66.74.60.165
|
It wasn't nations that flocked to the clans, but individuals did. One of the FRR worlds was turned over at the simple threat of attack, as Phelan had brought the offer to the leader of the world at that time. Don't remember the name at this time.
I guess you missed the part in the novels where Katherine actually met Vlad before that, which is what prompted him coming to take her. I want to say they had an affair during that visit.
The suggestion of a jump drive failure wasn't meant as mechanical issues, but assassination of Katherine. Anti climatic? Probably. Unless it is shown to be an assassination. Though at this point, Katherine was a warrior, so head hunting might be the way out of any backlash.
One possible reason the developers didn't want the IS making clan tech, is it destroys the clans ability to create fear in the IS. The clan warriors tend to be better fighters, but they lack the numbers. With equal tech, the sheer numbers of the IS means the clans would be wiped out.
The WOB tech is another thing going along the lines of making a small group look powerful, but when the masses get it, destroys the balance in the game.
And warships did that as well. Orbital bombardments were discussed on the board, and most agreed, it voids the need for ground combat most of time.
|
Requiem
04/08/19 06:10 PM
1.158.130.13
|
First, the FRR world of Gunzburg – Natasha bid him alone to take the world … the population did not go willingly – they capitulated under the threat of overwhelming destruction to their world and their people …. They surrendered to save lives. They are a conquered people - this is not the same as seeking them out for power!
No, I didn’t miss it where Katherine and Vlad had their tryst …. This was when they were as equals ….. when he came for her post Civil War, they were no longer equals.
What Vlad did then was very un-Clan like …. Warriors usually did not have emotional entanglements … it was only ever physical and in the moment ….
So his reason for taking her from a Clansman’s point of view is perplexing to say the least …
This should have been explained – Vlad’s sa-khan should have asked him why he was willing to go to war over a failed IS Khan …..
Sorry, but I cannot see someone just assassinating Katherine – her character within the IS requires something more unexpected …. something that would evoke a very strong emotion in the reader when reading of her death scene.
She may have tested out as a wolf warrior, but she will be forever be an Archon first and foremost.
As for the issue of technology – this is a sore point with all within the game as it makes no rational thought whatsoever – the ongoing Fiat with regards to technology is just one more coffin in the game. After a period of time the Clans should have been wiped out – graduate sibkos were never producing high enough graduates to replace ongoing battlefield losses – attrition would have slowly killed off each Clan within the IS – that is unless they adopted a new means of procuring willing warriors.
As for the WOB technology – every IS state should have been able to reverse engineer these weapons post Jihad. So again the Fiat makes no sense whatsoever.
And as for warships and orbital bombardments, as I stated before in one of my rants – ‘Mechs are no longer king of the battlefield – Warships are – From now on warships will destroy the majority of resistance upon any world and ‘Mechs will be only utilized for mop up assignments (the days of ‘Mech pilot glory is long gone as the number of fleets increases).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/09/19 06:08 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Except for making a better story, there isn't any real reason that you would need a huge fiasco dealing with Katherine, as noted. Yet, there have been a few big leaders that simply died in their sleep, or like Hanse, died of a heart attack. So why not change that fact as well?
There is no real huge plot with that one. Protecting his home world from an assassin squad, or even being in the front lines to bolster morale and get attacked would have made a far better ending.
To be honest, aerofighters were the kings before they got nerfed. Warships took over when they came out, but in the initial books, they strafed a whole map sheet, possibly hitting anything in their path, if using an energy weapon. They could kill dropships, mechs, tanks, infantry and such all at once and in any numbers that is in that path. Being hard to hit was another reason why they were the kings. So they got nerfed.
And as said before. If the game was more to life, mechs would be bombarded the moment they got a ship within artillery range, with anything in the area going after them. There would be no mech to mech action, unless it was away from any civilized areas, or a hot drop on a mech unit. Sneaking units on world would require using ships known to the ground control. ALL ships would be detected before they could drop.
But that means no game.
|
Requiem
04/10/19 12:46 AM
1.158.130.13
|
The only fiasco I would contemplate is that of her successful extraction from Clan Wolf (with or without child in tow).
Once returned to Lyran Space she would announce not only her return but also her intention to reassume the throne … if announced post Peter (and his son’s) abdication and prior to the Estates General’s reformation as to whom the next Archon is … this would place the Lyran state into a constitutional emergency the likes of which has never happened before … thus both would have to lobby the Estates General members for their vote.
All the while the Jihad conflagration is progressing throughout the Lyran state …
It would make for an interesting backdrop as the war wages on …
Introducing the idea of a Clan Wolf in exile assassination attempt is possible … what if their attempt coincided with WOB peace mission? That is they were requesting of Katherine to re-establish the Star League with them as a member and recognising their protectorate ….
So what’s next?
Wolf in exile declared rogue by Katherine?
Adam siding with the wolves – Katherine in talks with WOB he declares a charge of Treason upon Katherine?
WOB announce, through Katherine, their terms for a cessation of hostilities (IS wide cessation) – thus undercutting Adam’s chage and turning her into the peacemaker.
By now she also would have bribed everyone she needed to ensure victory ..
Some would go along with Adam; Some would go along with Katherine – most would be happy that an end to the war is now in sight.
If peace does occur – she will be back on the throne …
So how would the remaining House Lords take this request and its requirements to end the war with the WOB … (That is the question – most would sign for peace now so that we have a war in the future once all sides are re-armed with new weapon systems to take on the WOB – and are ready to eradicate the WOB once for all – just remember what we learnt from WW1 – an unjust peace leads to an unjust war! (WW2) and peace between states – peace in our time! – the document is not worth the paper it is written upon )
And as for Wolf in exile .. hunted not only by the Lyran State, the ARDC, they also could be hunted by Vlad’s wolves …. So where could they go to seek asylum? DC – FS or FWL? …. Makes for an interesting decision?
To me this reads as a more dynamic history than that of the canon history. Plus if written correctly you could even write the whole story without the use of WMD (and them bane them from the game!)
The only issue with fighters is the staffing corridor they have at high speed … if you spread your mechs out and put in specialist anti-aircraft mechs and tanks it makes for an interesting situation.
The only thing you really have to worry about is bombs falling from the sky … but this is why both sided have fighters to battle over air-superiority.
So it is not as doom and gloom as you wold think.
However with Warships you had better pray you have nuclear missiles and your fighters are fast – otherwise your ‘Mechs are going to become a smear on the landscape if you allow orbital bombardments.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/10/19 03:51 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Then again, what if the assassination went off when Katherine was talking to some of the heads of WOB? Maybe wound Katherine but take out some of the WOBS leaders, causing a major power struggle in WOB?
Or the Falcons could do so. Prevent Katherine from getting the Alliance to side with the wolves would be a very tactical idea.
But there is a point that seems to need answers.
You are keeping WOB set along the canon path. Yet you want to change almost everything else. Why?
Instead of peace, have all splinter even more, and really cause war. Or have the other leaders that are already in power get the peace going.
Adam or someone else has a secret fleet of say 3 warships, with orders to nuke WOB HQ on earth. They hit and destroy the WOB high command. The lower leaders can't figure out how to reorganize, so sue for peace, and with the nuking of their own HQ, decide WMDs are the worse idea, with orbital bombardments being second.
I would think introducing ground batteries that can target ships, but maybe have them only be able to hit larger ships. So you can remove the threat of warships from getting close to a planet. They can still operate around jump points and such. But that is just a suggestion.
|
Requiem
04/10/19 06:22 AM
1.158.130.13
|
In my opinion, (free to change if you want, depending upon how you want your Alt. Universe to finally evolve into – as for me ….)
It is a possibility that you could attempt an assassination upon Katherine, and in her stead you get WOBS – though I doubt the “supreme leader” would come out of hiding – he would send his flunkies …. So flunkies only!. (So no, not in my universe, good idea though!)
As for the Falcons … I cannot see them initiating an assassination …. It just doesn’t seem like they would even contemplate that …. So, I need to think how would the Falcons attempt to stop an alliance between the Wolves and the Lyrans ….. via the Inner Sphere Grand Council? … politics, getting another clan to initiate multiple trials of possession, against their worlds is always a favourite way of keeping another clan preoccupied whilst they, the Falcons, conduct something on the side.
(another good idea to consider, thanks)
As for keeping the initial path of the WOB – I want to keep the size and the ferocity, the hidden five worlds (even though the thought of establishing these worlds and ensuring no one who remained with ComStar know of their existence is a very ludicrous proposition) – then I want to ensure all WMDs are ditched – thus I get to keep their technology and cyber implants etc. as I also want a new SLDF that includes the WOB – plus I want the cyber implants are to become IS wide, over time … et. al.
In the future this could give me …..
New IS Omni-mechs based upon WOB Omni-mechs and transformable fighters; OR
A SLDF that could go toe-to-toe against ALL of the Clans within the IS and the Deep Periphery; OR
A second IS Vs. WOB war where all five hidden worlds are fought over …. By the IS Great Houses - thus each Great house will have access to WOB production facilities for future wars …
Just as a first thought on what could go next ….
As for Adam utilizing nuclear weapons upon Terra … sorry but this will make him the second Amaris. And as such to be hunted down and killed by every Great House and Clan out there …. Though when you see him during the old Battletech TV show this goes completely against his psychological profile, so no I cannot see him ever contemplating this action. In all probability, when Katherine returns to the throne she keeps Adam as her Commander in Chief for the Lyran Military (keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer – to keep an eye on him). Plus politically it would look good from the point of view of the people and the army to form a coalition with those who were against her at one time – forgive and forget for past slights and crimes – for now that is, over time …. Slowly …. Slowly …. accidents will happen, with no pattern that could tie them back to Katherine).
Removing WMDs must occur throughout the game – the last point in time they became outlawed – Turtle Bay (orbital bombardment) and in response Kurita’s reprisal – Vengeance class Dropships with Kamikaze aerospace fighters with Tactical nukes attached against Clan Warships and Jumpships.
(at this point in time everyone would have had a sit down to ensure WMDs are once again put back in the box with the lid firmly shut … that is until the next nut case wants to use them!)
Yes, you can reintroduce ground batteries that can target ships in orbit – but they would need to be close to ensure they are within range. Anything just out of obit would be out of range from any ground weapon … that is unless you want something like the Robotech grand beam weapon used against the Zentradi fleet (and I cannot see that ever being introduced!).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/10/19 06:12 PM
66.74.60.165
|
It seems space is the main thing limiting better weapons on space craft. Not going so far as the Grand Canon on Robotech, but you could very well increase the range of ground based weapons to keep any warship from getting close enough to even thing of a standard bombardment. Use of asteroids is always possible, but I think keeping that out of the game is a great idea.
I think you are missing some information with saying Adam would be considered the new Amaris. The IS is not some single government, and frankly, the WOB owns terra. They have shown no remorse or even hesitation to use nukes, so if he takes out WOBs leaders, he may well be hailed as a hero. Except the 'bond' of terra being the birthplace of human kind, there is no real ties or need to allow WOB to live after their deeds. In fact, WOB should be seen as Amaris, as they were willing to kill as many as they can with WMDs. So there is a bit of argument that can be done there.
And as such to be hunted down and killed by every Great House and Clan out there
This sentence seems out of sort, since it didn't happen when WOB did the nuking. Something out of place?
Now, the second part of that sentence. OR some one else. Comstar forces, Mercs that got ahold of a warship that had nukes. There is a long list that can be used. But that simplifies the story alot.
No one thought the Falcons would use the legend of the Red Corsair, but they did. That would be considered dishonorable in the clans outlook. And assassination isn't necessary, just a strike on the force that is going with Katherine, or even Vlad. Head Hunting, as she is now a warrior. A stretch? Probably.
It is also possible those in Vlad's Wolves might want to remove her. Jealousy? Being passed over so she could rise in the ranks? She is a dezgra person being allowed to corrupt the wolves?
You could always have Yvette come back with a vengeance and start crap. Teach all those that put her down sort of thing. There are others as well.
I will admit, the way the developers used Katherine, I really dislike, so that may be part of why I would hate to see her keep in power.
Add on:
The idea of Victor's and Omi's son being the sinister being to do this came to mind after I posted the main idea.
Edited by ghostrider (04/10/19 06:13 PM)
|
Requiem
04/10/19 07:39 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Naval Warship Weapons (especially energy weapons), and again in my opinion, should be in the hundreds of kilometers (close to even one thousand kilometers) – standard Anti Fighter weapons should start at one hundred kilometers – and the armour upon a warship should be increased by a factor of ten – thus the idea a couple of squadrons of aerospace fighters can kill off a warship is reduced considerably.
Thus the idea of a real warship will become a reality.
As for Adam – assassinating the WOB command personnel – if he kills them upon Terra with a nuclear weapon he will be vilified by everyone (as he used a WMD upon the sacred soil of mother Terra) – However if they are in space (say a warship / dropship) and he uses the same nuclear weapon conversely he could be hailed as a hero. I know it sounds strange but in my opinion politics can be a strange subject – even within the 31st Century on-wards.
Yes, maybe it is possible for a Falcon unit to strike at Katherine – however why would they – fear of a Wolf Lyran alliance?
Would it not be easier to assume that if this was contemplated the Wolves in Exile would strike out at their former Wolf compatriots (and supported by the Falcons) – a head-hunter group by Phaelen to kill Vlad thus stopping the alliance. Or/- a war between the two wolf factions to not only reform the two groups but to determine whom is to rule over the new combined wolfs.
Many of Vlad’s wolves may switch sides due to his – dalliance – with Katherine and his underhanded means of promoting her to warrior status.
Yvonne however is within the FS –she has enough problems as is with the WOB upon New Avalon. Plus there is the the time taken for a Jump-ship to travel From the FS to the LC as I doubt there would ever be a chance of arranging a command circuit during the Jihad war – thus by the time Yvonne got there the situation would have resolved itself one way or another.
QUOTE: “I will admit, the way the developers used Katherine, I really dislike, so that may be part of why I would hate to see her keep in power”.
And this is the reason why I would put her back into power – having a villain back in the story would entice many back to the story due to the dislike they have for the character – how many stories were so compelling because of the villain and how many villains are so detested as that of Katherine?
A good story needs a good villain and who better than that of Katherine?
As for Victor and Omi’s son – he is being brought up as a Kurita Samurai – if he is told at all about his parents – though if he is told then yes he could become a villain also in his desire to kill the woman who ordered the death of his mother.
In this he would have assistance with from the Nova Cats and his Uncle Minoru (currently Oathmaster).
So this could lead to their son joining the Nova Cats also – and in time a war between the Nova Cats and either the Lyrans or their allies (?) the Wolves.
So yes this could start another war that was as yet not considered before.
(Thankyou I had not even considered this, but now that I have it could lead to something interesting)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/11/19 04:36 PM
66.74.60.165
|
There is another question that needs to be asked.
By this time in the alt universe, things have been changed dramatically. Yet you seem to want to keep to canon things, like WOB's attack. The fact the CC is history, gives the FS extra worlds to deal with,
In the one thread, you said Victor gets involved with Isis Marik. Nothing there?
Just running with the FC situation, a few more things have come up.
What if Victor had a child with one of the clan warriors or bondswoman they took in combat?
Same with Peter.
The general estates decide to reject Katherine and put one of their own on the throne.
Fosht reveals his identity, or maybe Victor does, in order to get someone else in line for the throne, as he continues with the Comguards.
And with that, the Comguards follow Victor in his support for the ARDC.
Another thread had the WOB assault not happen. What happened there?
And lastly, why rely on canon for a villain? Make up your own.
Someone from the comguards that WOB supports, or something like that. Even Victor deciding to remove all the 'evil' in the IS and beyond, starting a full cleansing of all realms.
|
Requiem
04/11/19 07:38 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Victor and Isis – this was Katherine’s first “assassination”, the destruction of their budding relationship. However, to be honest Victor is also to be held responsible for the deteriorating relationship – being on the front line constantly with his ‘Mech unit didn’t help matters – as the First Prince his role changes to that of being in command and not a RCT commander. So it was easy for her to poison their relationship. So friends – yes – anything beyond that – no.
Somehow I doubt either Victor or Peter would have a fling with a Clan warrior – it is not beyond the realms of possibility – but not for my Alt. History – though if it did – media would hunt them down for a story “The First Prince’s love child” and then it would go from there … let’s just say we now end up in soap-opera territory (and this is not for me).
If the Estates General went against Katherine – Cladius the Cruel would have nothing on what she would do next …. So in the best interest of not only themselves and their family staying alive they will vote as per her directions.
Anastasius Focht has rejected his past … if it got out I would assume he would just shrug it off … plus his age – born Sept. 2972. Though Katherine still has a closer claim to the throne – so unless Victor puts his hand up she will be the next Archon. And to be honest even if he did put his hand up I still believe Katherine would be elected due to her ability to politically control the major political powers within the Lyran Commonwealth. Victor has never cultivated political friendships the way she has.
Victor taking the Comguards one again? – this time Comstar would fire him – so he is now back to rogue Comguard units to support the ARDC and this time there will be no coming back to command all of the Comguard for Comstar –they (Comstar) may even send loyal Comguards against him – so this could lead to a war between the loyal Comguard and the ARDC in a time when IS needs unity of forces from all of the Great Houses and some of the Clans in the event Katherine’s push for a cease fire with the WOB does not eventuate so no I cannot see him destroying an alliance of forces form many different Houses, Clans and Mercenary units to achieve a common goal.
This is a possibility –the WOB war not occurring – in this thread the Star League Survives and the WOB become members – they join the new SLDF and war eventuates against all of the Clans that do not side with the Star League …. The story continues from there ….
Sorry no, Katherine is it for my villain – putting her back into power is just too much fun … she is chaos incorporated …. the entire IS would literally hit the roof over this … and returning her to the great game would force others to move against her or those that support / protect her.
Battletech history from this one action alone would turn on its head – it creates so many possibilities that it excites me to just contemplate them all …. and this is what I want in a story excitement, the unknown, many characters operating all at once and no one can predict the future … so as far as I can see, she is it! (plus it reminds me of a certain sitcom series that everyone is talking about currently!)
As for Victor cleaning up the IS …. it is not in his personality to do this …. And how many Great Houses would allow him to do that as he would need the internal security forces of every house to even contemplate such an action.
No, it is more fun to put Katherine back on the throne and sit back and watch the chaos ensure throughout the IS.
So, in my opinion, the game developers missed out in reshaping the Inner Sphere – not with the WOB and WMDs – but with Katherine’s return and the many wars this would have sparked (and no WMDs) plus we get the added benefit of introducing the WOB’s technology to all of the Great Houses of the IS – how many characters could now have WOB surgey to “improve” their abilities as their soldiers did?
Plus we get third/fourth generation IS Omni-Mechs!!!!! And a transformable fighter!!!!
It just takes the game to the next level – something the current canon history / game development has failed (spectacularly) to do!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/13/19 06:25 AM
1.158.130.13
|
The world of Melissia, Jihad era (as per sarna.net wiki)…. “During the Jihad those members of the Estates General who either had the fortune to not be on Tharkad when the Word of Blake struck at the Lyran capital, or who managed to later escape from the siege there, convened as a quorum on Melissia. Although the Estates Genereal took on responsibility for managing the more mundane matters of state during the Jihad, they also managed to achieve a greater degree of authority over the infrastructure of the Alliance than was historically the case for their station”.
And upon Melissia … many plots grew due to Achon Peter Steiner-Davions misrule and absence due to the ongoing Jihad war …
In January of 3071 one member of the appointed twenty-member Estates Steering Committee was Lisa Steiner II (and one of the three children of late General of the Armies Nondi Steiner – whom Peter had killed in the final days of the Civil War) entered into a plot with Hauptmann-General Isadora Agravaine, the commanding officer of what was left of the 3rd Alliance Guards.
Meeting covertly these two individuals hatched their plot of nearly twelve months in the planning, where moving through abandoned star systems and empty space they would proceed to Clan Wolf held world of Tamar. Once there they would undertake a raid upon the planet. However whilst this diversionary mission was in full swing the real objective could then be sought out by the infantry commando units of the raid and once found she was to be immediately repatriated back into Lyran Space.
This true prize, known only to a few, was that of the former Archon … Katherine Steiner-Davion!
As Lisa was also in command of the Department of the Quartermaster she was also in a position to be able requisition everything necessary to reform the Third into a Light Combat Team consisting of two new “Mech Divisions, including armor, VTOLs, Special Services Infantry and aerospace fighters for the mission to hand …
And as they say .. the rest is history.
Elements of the Thirteenth Wolf Guard were engaged by the 3rd Alliance Guards whilst the information provided by the Tamar freedom fighters proved to be accurate – the hidden Wolf training unit was easily breached by the Infantry of the Special Services Unit, there they acquired the target and were able to extract her.
The Third then disengaged under fire and were able retreat off world in good order together with their “package” and those Clan Wolf ‘Mechwarrior students that were also present.
Upon learning of the Lyran theft Vlad dispatched a warship to bring Katherine back to Clan Wolf … for the next month the Third played a game with the Clan Wolf Warship before they were able to eluded it within Clan Jade Falcon space.
Unknown, to all at the time Vlad’s sa-khan issued a challenge as to his un-clan like behavior regarding “that Inner Sphere bondswomen”. The two fought augmented within the circle and by day’s end Vlad lied dead within his cockpit whilst Clan Wolf recognized their new Khan.
Then in Late- November 3071, following Peter’s abdication decree and his desire to place Adam upon the Throne, Katrina Steiner-Davion made her move letting it be known to the entire Lyran people that she she had returned to lead them out of the Jihad war and to dispute Peter’s illegal transfer of the throne to Adam Steiner, whom she stated in no way was linked to the right of succession – She was shortly thereafter ratified by the Estates General in Exile as the one true Archon.
Thus within the Lyran state an age of multiple Archon’s began –Peter who abdicated himself and that of his son Hanse Steiner, Peters appointed successor Adam Steiner and that of the once deposed Archon and now reappointed Archon Katherine Steiner-Davion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/13/19 08:21 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Before declaring herself as Archon once more Katherine must secure not only the Military but also she must understand the mood or temperament of the people.
So, how does Katherine contact the Lyran Military without going through Adam’s High Command – through the Supply-chain and that of the Quartermaster Corp of which is controlled by Lisa Steiner II.
As for the mood of the people – there she would once more go through the media organisations that supported her so passionately in the past. They would be able to supply her with this information – and when she goes public they could use social media manipulation to drive the populations opinion towards the desired thought – Katherine has returned and she will save you as your Archon once more.
As for Peter’s desire to put Adam on the throne, I am of the opinion that the Estates General members with him upon Tharkad may even have trouble deciding to support Adam, as the media would paint his ascension to Archon as a Coup by a faction of the army, and if Katherine is able to win the support of the majority of the Army it would be suicide to support Adam.
So what next – rather than putting Adam on the throne will Peter put his infant / adolescent son Hanse Steiner upon the throne, backed up by a triumvirate of Adam (the Army), his wife (the child’s interests) and the speaker of the Estates General (the State)?
So what would be the best plan – if he fails his wife and child will die at Katherine’s hands at a time of her choosing – thus he must be in a position to send them into exile (into the Federated Suns) if he fails.
So we come to delicate time in the Lyran Alliance, so if Katherine enters into discussions with the WOB and brings about a peace proposal that is acceptable to all the House Lords.
1. Peace throughout the IS
2. A return of the Star League – including the WOB as a member;
3. A return of the SLDF – including WOB as a member; and
4. Recognition that the protectorate established by the WOB during the previous hostilities be recognised as an Inner Sphere State with all the benefits and responsibilities there-of.
There could be little argument Katherine is the Archon. Though there would still be a minor group of malcontents who would have wanted the war to continue to its bitter end – total destruction.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/14/19 09:16 AM
1.158.130.13
|
And as for Heimdal – the loyal opposition?
With Katherine one more upon the throne as long as the peoples freedom are not threatened their creed is not to react. But as for the Kells of Arc-Royal their hatred is tactile – however once again attacking her will once more destabilize the nation into civil war once more and at a time when unity is required …..
So will the Kell Hounds and/or the Wolves (in exile) lend Hanse Steiner (the son of the late Archon Peter Steiner) transport the heir to safety / into enforced exile within the Federated Suns and give up their station within the ARDC?
(Makes for an interesting situation don’t you think?)
As for the current enemy …
The Falcons and the Wolves (and even the wolves in exile) are at the door – followed quickly by the Nov Cats.
Would the entire WOB now protect the one who fulfilled the prophesy – returned the Star League and with the WOB as a member – would they see themselves as part of the new SLDF. Thus if these three Clans attack the Lyran State could the Lyrans and the WOB push them back?
And would the Kells / Wolves (in exile) as part of the ARDC be there to assist in the defence of the Lyran Realm?
And those wars that must be fought in the future ….
The WOB may once more be fought for atrocities past (once all their secrets are discovered and how much of their technology could be disseminated throughout the IS?) – or could the WOB have their own civil war – a war of reformation extremists Vs. modernists …. and if the modernists win –could the protectorate become a permanent state within the IS?;
And as for the former Archon Peter Steiner-Davion’s son Hanse will he return from exile with the Kell Hounds and /or Wolves (in exile) and others to take back “his” throne?;
Draconis Combine Vs. Bears and Federated Suns?
Then could there be a second Clan invasion? (post wars of reeving – to atone for the shame of the previous invasion)
And during this time, what upheaval what could the Lyrans and the FWL get involved into?
Then let us not forget the conquered CC – could they attempt to reform from the ashes?
The Periphery Realms? What mischief could evolve from them?
Thus my list of possibilities grows ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
04/23/19 12:51 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Third Possible fate for that of Katherine Steiner-Davion
Due to, possible the most puerile decision ever contemplated – a lack of funds, one of Yvonne’s first decisions when she became Regent (again!!!!!) was to resign from the Star League – effectively destroying the institution yet again.
(If this decision does not prove how politically incompetent her character was – nothing will – but surely it does show that the writing team were groping for any old excuse to kill of the Star League, even the most ridiculous)
And yet I digress from the point at hand – what we can see here is that both the Federated Suns – under First Princess Yvonne and the Lyran Alliance under Archon Peter were both being ruled by incompetent rulers.
Thus we get to the main issue – for the WOB – to ensure a return of the Star League (and their place within the Star League) they recognise that a true and rightful leader is required upon the throne of these two realms whom they realise could then reform the Star League, as both Yvonne and Peter are just too incompetent.
Enter …. Katherine Morgan Steiner-Davion.
Thus rather than start a war throughout the entire Star league – which would be detrimental to one of their underlining goals – with the WOB as a member of the SLDF they will remove the clans from the IS once and for all – they can prove their martial might and their dedication to the Star League and the Inner Sphere by waging a war with Clan Wolf – “With what forces do you protect Katherine Morgan Steiner-Davion?”
OR / They could just kill all the Wolves until they find her!
So with the Wolves now dead … or assimilated into the WOB ….
Then with their proxy leader / saviour safely within their possession the WOB can provide an ultimatum to the Lyran Alliance and the Federated Suns – turn over these thrones to Katherine or it will be war.
So, now that Victor has sworn an oath never to get involved with IS politics again will he get involved with ComStar troops again destroying his oath once more?
Will those forces once loyal to Katherine declare for her once again?
And what of the other Great Houses what would they do? Support the existing rulers / do nothing / conduct invasions of their own ….
Thoughts …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/23/19 01:04 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Is comstar run by the first circuit still? Or does Victor have full control over it?
I can see if the first circuit having control, deciding WOB needs to be removed from Terra, and orders Victor to hit them, while they are off doing other things.
Second. Peter and Yvonne were not really trained to run the states, so incompetent might be the wrong word. Victor and Katherine were trained, as they were the first heirs.
And that same argument could be used to WHY the general estates allowed Adam to take over when they did. Katherine was a Clan Wolf warrior. The clan wolf, the IS wanted nothing to do with. So politically, she would be the worse person to push for the Alliance throne. WOB would have been against it, as the clans goals were still to take Terra. Might not be that pressing at this time, but still a goal. Vlad would be one to try and get it.
So. Do you trust that Katherine didn't fall sway under Vlad, and would use the Alliance to help the clans remove WOB/Comstar, and take Terra?
Given her past, do you trust her not to try and take the others out anyway she can?
Would she destroy the League by pulling a Sun-Tzu? Using League forces to start occupying old LC/LA territory, while she pushes to recover the forces in the Alliance?
Even starting the war to remove some of the clans, ie the Falcons? Not for the benefit of Vlad, though he would, but to remove them from threatening the Alliance, and relieving the pressure, so they can start moving against the other houses?
Yes, this is your alt, but a few of these questions come to mind, that may not have been pondered.
|
Requiem
04/23/19 02:33 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Victor, has never been in command of ComStar …. He has only ever been in command of the ComGuard.
Yes, I too can see the First Circuit of ComStar ordering Victor to take the ComGuard to re-capture Terra. However, I can also see him equivocating …. Stating the need for additional forces to complete the task … and then the First Circit would say “Yes, we recognized this possibility … to that end we have hired the ELH, Wolfs Dragoons …. (and maybe other heavy hitter mercenary units) … to assist you in this task!”
(though if Victor times it right he could ed up having to fight Katherine’s WOB due to widening escalation of forces and battles upon numerous worlds – he would then be free of his oath and he could engage Katherine’s forces once more anywhere under the guise he is protecting the safety of ComStar)
As for Peter and Yvonne never been trained … sorry no I disagree … their Father Hanse received the throne when his elder brother was killed in battle with Kell Hounds … there is no way he would not prepare all of his children that one day they too may be required to assume the throne.
I put it down to the point the game developers wanted them to be ill prepared – whereas they all should have been trained extensively in Politics / Tactics and Strategy / communications / Law / Mech-combat etc. until they were all ready to take the throne by say early to mid-twenties (it’s just another ooops moment by the game developers) so the charge of incompetent stands – how hard is it to rationalize thoughts of others – if I do this (resign from the Star League) …. what would the other leaders do? Keep going – resign etc and what would that mean for the Inner Sphere – how hard would it be to think this through or ask another person about their thoughts it I did this … what’s next?... so the charge of incompetence stands as far as I’m concerned.
Adam is an ILLEGAL Archon (brought on by a game developer’s fiat) in reality there is no way he would ever be allowed to be Archon!
We have been through this before (read above) Katherine can return and she can take the throne once more … it was Victor’s revenge to place her with the Wolves, this does not translate into her being banished forever … as upon her return she will become the saving Valkyrie and she could push for the restoration of the Star League ! The people will flock to her once more and there will be another war for both the thrones once more. Just this time Victor is sidelined and unable to assist and it is up to Peter and Yvonne to hold their thrones against the WOB and those that side with her once more.
Remember the WOB prophesy - becoming part of both the Star League and the SLDF – then they destroy he Clans. So yes, it is possible that with Katherine’s help (being First Princess and Archon) upon the Federated Commonwealth Throne and a restored Star League with her in command) the new and improved SLDF will engage a d destroy the Clan threat once and for all.
The WOB never wanted an Inner Sphere Jihad – circumstances forced this upon them when the leaders of the Inner Sphere became Intractable and refused to listen to common sense.
Thus leading the way, destroying the Wolves returning Katherine to the throne of the FC – then re-establishing the Star League and a new SLDF does make sense for the WOB forces.
As for Katherine falling under the sway of Vlad …. Sorry, no … there is only one that Katherine loves …. power from being absolute ruler.
So again, if the Lyran Alliance falls to Katherine – Victor would set a trap for her and her WOB allies that would allow him to fight for Yvonne and the FS. Though if she was able to sidestep his trap – her would be unable to assist Yvonne in any capacity.
Given Katherine’s past and her predilection for killing her enemies, yes she does have an “Arya” list – so watch out Archer and Adam Steiner and many many others.
Sorry but in my game world the CC no longer exists … but if it did … Sun-Tzu had better watch out there are other assassins out there! … so putting Kali on the throne with her death cult as an ally ... what fun the CC could do next?
As for the Falcons they are now surrounded – so what they would do next is unknown? Stay put / continue the invasion / blindly fight out at everyone?
In my opinion this would make for an interesting hypothesis as to an alternate universe to that of the Jihad era and beyond.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/23/19 12:01 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Would she destroy the League by pulling a Sun-Tzu? Using League forces to start occupying old LC/LA territory, while she pushes to recover the forces in the Alliance?
That should have been one question not two, as I made it sound like.
I was using the St. Ives maneuver as and example, and screwed it up.
This question deals with Yvonne pulling the FS out of the League.
Why would that destroy it?
I would figure the others would just continue, and isolate the FS with sanctions and heavy reprimands for any 'raids' that were launched by the FS, real or a set up. It could also lead to the downfall of the FS if things continued that way.
And since you said something about the periphery states joining, they should have more 'power' and might even remove Yvonne's pulling the FS out of the League.
|
Requiem
04/24/19 02:49 AM
1.158.130.13
|
After Thomas Kurita attempted this you would have assumed that “the abuse of powers” charge against the First Lord would have become law to ensure this act never happens again, by utilizing the SLDF to gain territory (Lyran Thumb) would have been outlawed from this point onwards. And yet what do we get? Yet another “Fiat” by the game developers – and this time by Sun-Tzu – so if it was the game developers writing this story I would say yes she could. However as this is mine – definitely not, there must be limitations and rules to those in power – on a side note you would have thought all the different House’s lawyers would have ensured this could never occur when they were drafting the new Constitution of the Star League – I guess they forgot to add a clause developers Fiat will override all other reasonable and expected laws.
As for Yvonne stating that due to the civil war any funds that were due to paid to the Star League must be utilized for war repairs – thus as she could no longer pay her “union dues” she was resigning – hence everyone else said if your taking your bat and ball and going home then I am going home too! – became the situation.
Yes all the House Lords acted like petulant children – another Fiat moment – in reality the House Lords would have placed a finance clause into the constitution (where were the lawyers again?) so that any payments could be delayed for future periods of time until such a time they could make good any arrears payments.
Thus the Star League would have continued on.
But the game developers wanted it gone – it was past it’s story arc used by date – the same as the Federated Commonwealth they (the game developers) wanted the Suns and the Alliance to return and not a single unified realm.
So, yes, I agree with you on this point it would have been more realistic to assume that if one party dropped out the others would retain the league and then use its constitutional rules to destabilize – either militarily or economically – the realm that no longer was part of the Star League.
Yes, I also agree that the periphery states could now have a voting block that could rival that of the Great Houses during Star League council meetings – that they could use for their development. As for stopping Yvonne’s decision to remove the FS from the Star League – we come back to game developers fiat / incompetence – they wanted it gone so it is gone, and yet in the real world Yvonne could not declare that the FS would leave – this is not the League of Nations / United Nations.
It is better to be part of the game than being on the outside looking in – at least you can then be part of how the decisions are made and implemented!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/24/19 02:56 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Timeframe. Sun Tzu was the first person to hold first lord of Star League. Theodore was second. Which couldn't happen in the alt, as Sun Tzu didn't have a nation to sponsor him. So there is an issue with that thought.
Now another thing about the Yvonne leaving the league. Since the FS owned the CC at this point, would this case even come up? Your own argument was with the CC's economic state joined with the FC at the time, wouldn't this counter the lack of funds? Or may be make it so the FS never joined the league.
It looks like to run the Alt, you need to get completely away from the canon.
And I agree that forming the FC was stupid, breaking it up continued that. They need to break everything up into small regions and start again, or finally form a full stable IS government.
And with the later issue of the DC destroying so much of the FS forces, this goes back to having to break them up. If still part of the FC, or League, that would not have happened. Not that the DC wouldn't do so, but the FS wouldn't be forming up the forces to strike the DC.
|
Requiem
04/24/19 08:53 PM
1.158.130.13
|
An issue? Not really, as it does not matter who was first and who was second … the issue remains the same a House Lord used their position as First Lord to order SLDF units to achieve their own Houses / personal ambition rather than that placing the needs of the Star League first – and they got away with it.
Where as in a sane society, when they were establishing a new government, such as the Star League, there would have been a “regiment” of Lawyers involved from all the initial members / signatories to the Star League as to the establishment of an agreed upon constitution. As such there would have been provisions within the constitution to ensure malfeasance through the use of the SLDF and on the part of the First Lord was impossible towards that of another member of the Star League or even a non-member.
As for Yvonne Leaving the Star League – in my Alt. Universe this would not happen.
The Star League does NOT have an expiry date just because you want to start a new story arc – to think to can just dispose of the Star League is quite laughable – how many walked out on the League of Nations, and did the League cease to exist because of this?
As for never joining – remember why it was established. To provide a unified and stratified front against the Clan Invasion – Militarily – and to undercut the clans reason for the invasion – politically – it will also ensure a level of peace throughout the IS by stopping Succession Wars. So yes the Federated Commonwealth would join the Star League.
As we are back to the old saying “we either hang together or we hang alone” when it comes to the Clans.
So yes, I would agree with the assessment that my Alt. may have an undertone now and again as to the original Canon but overall I will be moving very far away from the canon as I just do not consider the canon story to be credible in spots.
For example –
The idea that Thomas Marik survived a bomb explosion within a heavy walled room is laughable – if the explosion did not kill him the pressure wave an explosion creates would have;
The clan invasion - why my Fenrir / commando strikes within clans rear garrisons were not considered and the use of sniper rifles – it has been clearly demonstrated that the Clans were unable to provide a serious garrison upon the majority of the captured worlds and the idea that they could flout their own traditions and just add more troops is not credible – that is unless they assign an entirely new Clan to the invasion corridor – they bided a certain amount and they are stuck with that number - it cannot change unless they are moving their entire forces plus civilians to the IS (that is whilst they are within the IS – once kicked out and fighting starts in the Deep Periphery they can then add additional forces);
The entire Turtle Bay incident was completely mismanaged due to a complete lack of understand as to Japanese Samurai cultural norms – refer to Gen. Tojo WW2 and the idea of the Kamikaze pilot;
And why warships were not taken out asap at this stage is a complete unknown – by either big wings / modified dropships with naval lasers etc. – as at this stage the rules of war should have shifted from war with the all the rules to that of total war (thus nukes are allowed) due to the action of using an orbital bombardment – if Clans want to stop total warfare they must request ComStar to initiate talks – all Khans and all House Lords, in one room, as to this action and its consequences and how they will deal with it;
Then we come to the rules of nukes – where for some strange reason the damage they inflict is more like a normal HE explosive than that of a nuclear reaction – where one 5KT warhead would be enough of a detonation within say. 1Km to reduce any warship to a pile of scrap metal (that is unless we want to add energy shields to our warships);
The issue regarding Sibko replacement personnel was never adopted within the story arc (it was more like unlimited personnel for the Clans) – replacement personnel within the Inner Sphere must become an issue of the Clans – depletion report as to when deaths exceed replacement numbers must be clearly shown within the story arc;
The issue of changing strategy from direct warfare to an attrition based warfare system should be implemented – especially within the DC – though as for the others, not so much;
The issue of just removing one clan from the Inner Sphere is laughable – The only rational decision would be to remove all of the Clans at the First Whitting Conference;
To this end the Star League would use the 15 year truce to build new units, build new omni mechs and fighters, build new pocket warships, build new PT craft etc and once complete then attack – in this the cannon story arc is completely not believable;
The idea that at the end of the Falcon / Wolf war the IS forces do not attack them due to their weakened condition is also quite laughable – it is the perfect time to retake lost FC (LA) worlds;
The idea that Clans had vehicles only holds water if there is a single pilot to the machine – otherwise the only place you would find them is within a Solhama unit, with lower technology weapons, and piloted by freebirth teams)
As for this idea that single weapon configuration ‘Mechs would dominate the production lines so close after the initial invasion by the Clans is also laughable – procurement of Omni’s only by the Great Houses and Comstar;
The idea Katherine needed to assassinate her mother to achieve power is also laughable – she only needed to assassinate her brother Victor to achieve the throne;
The ongoing issues regarding succession to the throne of realm was also mismanaged on occasion – the idea that Adam could become Archon is beyond stupid – as why would a father give up his son’s right to rule?;
And as for Yvonne who would ever trust her to rule when she just folded over at the slightest political breeze?.
And then the biggest issue – technology – going to huntress and not returning with a complete understanding and including factories that were upon Huntress is the most ludicrous idea I have ever heard of;
And as for the WOB and the Jihad ….. enough said on that stupid idea of 5 hidden worlds and returning WMDs on mass to the game.
And then it just gets more and more unbelievable ……the establishment of Stone's empire .... taking 'Mechs away form units .... the dark age of HPG failure .... groan!!!!!!!!!
Do I need to go on? The Canon story arc is just not believable (or even fun due to undertones of the era involved), thus the need to get away from it and establish my own story arc that I can be comfortable with – thus for me, I am happy with its development so far as I have removed most (though I might have missed / created others) issues.
That is why I like to post some of my changes as I like people to debate with me and tell me I am wrong, it helps me clarify my position – and be provided with new ideas that I had not considered before.
So thanks to everyone who debates with me, very appreciated.
As for a FC / DC war post clan invasion – even though you have a Star League and a SLDF you will always have raids and even retaliatory invasions. The main war is now through the new proxy states – for me this is within the Deep Periphery as the FC / DC / Clans are engaged in multiple wars for planets of strategically important or have an abundance of minerals or are considered to be agriculturally / water rich etc. as each side is attempting to establish a new mini state. And from there we will have wars of independence etc.
And then who knows …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/24/19 08:55 PM)
|
Requiem
02/05/20 02:32 AM
1.158.235.15
|
What could have occurred if Katherine’s “gifts” were spotted by her parents earlier and were encouraged?
Let’s be realistic-
Victor’s ability to manage an empire is severely lacking. However his ability to wage war and manage the military are “supposed to be” second to none!
However, his sister is his polar opposite – she is a consummate politician – and a complete scoundrel and assassin when necessary.
So what would happen if their parents recognized each child’s attributes and encouraged them.
Victor could wage the wars.
Katherine would be the iron and clawed gauntlet within a velvet glove, behind the scenes running everything within the F-C, to all intent and purposes she is Victor’s Loyal Regent whilst he is off playing soldier.
However, to be an effective regent what would happen if she was trained to take over both intelligence agencies within the F-C?
Oh what an interesting story these two could weave when we make the decision to convert her into a loyal and loving sister who does not want the throne when her power, behind the throne and in the shadows, is far more powerful and entertaining than anything Victor could ever conceive.
Let Victor have the throne and the lime light. She can play the game in the spotlight better than anyone when necessary, and yet in the shadows she has found her true place and her power!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/05/20 12:26 PM
66.74.60.165
|
That would have lead to the end of the game. If both worked together, very little could stop the FC from wiping out all opposition. I think it would be a better way to go with the story, but that doesn't mean it would end well. There would always be a civil war on the horizon, or major uprising in the occupied territories.
And the clans? Yeah. They would provide a fight, but in the end, lose due to the lack of reserves.
So this would remove a huge chunk of time, until the children or grand children become monsters.
|
Requiem
02/05/20 05:17 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
That would have lead to the end of the game. If both worked together, very little could stop the FC from wiping out all opposition.
Doubtful, the way I look at how it should be written is as another Hanse and Quintus, just that they are marginally better – and weave more interesting traps.
Quote:
There would always be a civil war on the horizon, or major uprising in the occupied territories.
Possible … The Draconis March and the Isle of Skye attempting to break away could be a possibility.
With the fall of the CC – there will always be uprisings within the newly established occupied territory.
Quote:
And the clans? Yeah. They would provide a fight, but in the end, lose due to the lack of reserves.
With the fall of the CC – the F-C should have over 300 ‘Mech Regiments – so lack of resources is a non issue. Plus the F-C obtain the CC jump-ships / Drop-Ships – more combat forces can be moved to the combat zone and in a more ‘timely’ manner.
DC – they should have produced more Genyosha / Ryuken type units by the time the Clans Invade.
Quote:
So this would remove a huge chunk of time
If written correctly the Clans wars could become the second 100 years wars.
Quote:
until the children or grand children become monsters.
Negative waves again? …. Who knows what their off spring would be like or how they will act in the universe they find themselves.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 205 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 12778
|
|
|
|
|
|
|