Requiem
08/30/18 06:44 PM
58.175.193.140
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A couple of issues that has always bothered me is that of the actions of the Great Houses during the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War.
No, I am not against them staying out of the war, in the beginning, in that I believe their actions were correct …
As per House Steiner Book Page 40 when Robert II described his logic behind not helping Kerensky, in that he described situation as…
“Who knew whether we would gain anything by helping General Kerensky? If he won without our help, we would still have been among the Council to choose who would become the next First Lord. If he lost, then Stefan Amaris would still have had to deal with us, fighting us if he dared. Either way, we would be in control. If we had chosen to fight with General Kerensky, our military would have been even more decimated than it is today, and how would we have defended ourselves in the terrible years to come?”
What I do not understand is the Great Houses thought processes during and when the outcome became obvious.
Each Lord must have realised that one way or another the only way a new First Lord would be decided was on the field of battle, and considering that the SLDF had the largest military force by far, this would therefore make Kerensky the King Maker, if he so chose post Amaris.
Thus when the writing was on the wall in that Amaris would fall why wouldn’t you at that stage step in and help the SLDF and General Kerensky with the final push? (with the quid pro quo that he would make you the next First Lord).
For even General Kerensky must also have realised that without a first Lord there would be a nuclear war on a scale as yet undreamt of.
As the CO of the SLDF his job is the preservation of the Star League and to ensure the safety of all the people within all the realms – thus any Lord who could preserve the status quo and halt any major war would be a better scenario for the Star League than none at all.
Also from the start of the Civil war how many war game exercises were run by each House’s ‘super-computers’. As this would have provided them with multiple scenarios in that any war between the Great Houses to claim the title of First Lord would also require nuclear ordinance.
Thus the best option is politically is to get the SLDF to back your Houses Claim above that of everyone else (back to the kingmaker situation).
Also if that failed then why didn’t each House Lord, prepare their military, industry and civilians as best they could for the oncoming nuclear war – ie.
Hide your naval yards within unknown strategic systems;
Require all major industries be placed deep underground in nuclear / biological proof bunkers;
Establish nuclear fall-out shelters within all major cities;
The preservation of Art, Literature and knowledge in general by having them transferred to secure bunkers;
Being honest with the people of each realm and let them know that if a consensus cannot be reached as to whom the nest First Lord will be, then in all probability this will lead to a nuclear war between the Great Houses …. Thus each Lord gets their peoples assistance in making the realm as secure as possible for any future hostilities.
etc
Thus each realm’s Lord prepares their Realm as best they can,and for their preservation, during an Armageddon War that would become known as the First Succession War.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/30/18 11:19 PM
66.74.61.223
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Possibly, the house lords each thought they would be chosen and not have to put forth any effort to make it happen?
Kerensky would have to name someone, and it couldn't be him or his kin.
As for still not getting involved when Amaris was seen to be destined to fail, you would still not want to risk your forces as the other lords may well decide to end the league with invasions of your realm. It would stand to reason, no one else helped him, so they were conserving their forces to attack their neighbors.
A second idea goes with this, as you plan to be the one that isn't picked to run the league. Then you have to be on guard as well.
Hide your naval yards within unknown strategic systems;
Require all major industries be placed deep underground in nuclear / biological proof bunkers;
The naval yards is not something you can up and move when ever you want. And before the wars started, most needed them to build the ships to explore and colonize their regions as well as supply them. Having them built there to begin with, would mean the system isn't unknown.
The factories is an interesting thing, as Defiance was built under a mountain, but by the league, not the LC. With this, do you really spend the time and money putting them underground when there wasn't much in the way of wars? Just pirate attacks?
They had other things to spend money on, including supplies for the colonial worlds still forming during the league era, as well as civilian factories that were more prevalent, and might even have been the basis for the quick war factories.
The fall out shelters should have been done long before the threat of war. Though I am not sure if they really expected the nukes to go off first, or if they thought it would start up as border flair ups, and escalate. And honestly, military bases would be the main target, not cities. That turned out to be incorrect, but who started dropping them like that? I would think the DC started it, though not sure about it. The main devastation written in the FS books suggested the DC border suffered from nukes, yet not a whole lot said about the CC. And the LC was spared alot of it, as the combine went mainly after the suns.
So of this might have also been ignored as each house generals thought they would rule any wars, so didn't bother with some preparations.
But this is only a possibility.
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Requiem
08/31/18 01:14 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: Possibly, the house lords each thought they would be chosen and not have to put forth any effort to make it happen?
And yet this is a very dangerous situation for each House Lord, for would it not be more prudent to go with “hope for the best and prepare for the worst” – any Lord would have Known the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War would take many years to resolve, so one way of another as a Lord a war could eventuate between either another House Lord, the SLDF or Amaris at this stage – so why not use that time to increase your House Units and prepare for a nuclear war?
Not doing so by any House Lord defies understanding, as each side must realise this war would be initiating the M.A.D. Principle and thus a War of Attrition – so the better you are able to ride out any strategic nuclear attacks the better your forces will be able to retaliate.
For the next war was for the Crown and as such each lord would require an sustainable military infrastructure to ensure their ascendency, to spend it on other projects would have been seen as irresponsible (look at the 100 year war as an example) at this stage from the point of view of each House Lord.
As for the shipyards – in creating them you would ensure they are modular – easy to break down and move when each battlefield required you to do so – as you have ships that are able to become ship yards and at the same time you would have yards that can be quickly broken down and moved as required. If you don’t then you are giving up a strategic concession to your enemies. I for one would have demanded of the contractors building the yards to ensure this little trick was available to my fleet – making them strategically hard to find and maintaining their operational flexibility during any war.
Anything else is again tactically irresponsible when it comes to space warfare with large fleets moving over large distances. Each fleet would have they own Carriers, Destroyers, Missile Carriers, Transport Carriers, Maintenance Ships, Mobile Maintenance Yard that could double as a Command and Control / Resupply hub for each fleet – thus strategic and tactical flexibility for each fleet during long periods within operational combat zones. (Small Space Station also?)
As for fearing the other House Lords at a stage during the final push to kill Amaris. No, I doubt they would attack (politics would hold them back) then (during the final assault upon Amaris) as Kerensky is still the King Maker and any attack upon an allied force of the SLDF will require him to immediately defend his allied forces (thus making the allied Lord the First Lord of the Star League in all but name) especially if Kerensky happened to die during an attack by a rival House Lord, your ascendency is all but assured by the SLDFs support!.
Plus the SLDF would have more than enough forces at the end to keep all the remaining house lords in their place when a new Fist Lord was determined. As it was only in their absence did the First Succession War Start.
In addition if he had chosen the the children of the two strongest realms (militarily) to wed initially – and there after the three remaining children of the three remaining Houses to wed in succession a new “Cameron Line” could be created from all the Houses was also an option that should have been considered – even to the point of kidnapping them and having a shotgun wedding.
As for fall-out shelters – first strike targets would include, military industries, military bases, large civilian cities (psychological – shock and awe and control centres for civilians – make it easier to pacify the world without a stable government), Power Plants, food storage and distribution points and any major transport hubs. As each realm would have more than enough nuclear weapons to kill off hundreds of entire worlds when it comes down to it in the end (or so each House Lord would believe) as we are back to the old belief that as long as two of your people survived and only one of theirs then it is a victory (General Curtis LeMay to Kennedy if I remember correctly).
At the very least would you not have looked at a deep strike to kill of the Capital World of your rivals as a first strike package in an attempt to kill off your rivals Command and Control / Government as a precursor to a full invasion by your forces?
In all likely hood preparing for a nuclear war at the start of the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War should have been seen as the best preparation for what was to come next (mitigating risk / reward) as a House Lord this seems to me as the most prudent thing to do at this stage.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/31/18 03:03 AM
66.74.61.223
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Not sure if the houses were at their limit for forces, which would mean, any build up may be punished, once Amaris was taken care of. So wasting the funds to do so, may have been why they didn't. It is also possible, no one had the resources to do more then simple replace those lost in combat. Not likely, but possible.
The ship yards were not modular in the 2750 book. So I don't think they were even thought of. I would think they didn't do it, as the structure would have been weaker then necessary to make what ever ships they were making. Much like the ship yards in the world today. To my knowledge, not a single one of them is mobile.
Also, stories of the periphery war suggests they had to send damaged ships back into the IS for repairs. The houses were still doing that much, but reluctantly and expensively. So they did not have any sort of mobile repair dry docks moving with them. But that is based on the stories.
I think at the time Amaris was being driven back, the house lords knew the League was over with. None of the lords would even consider allowing a rival, even across terra from them, to run the league. They all basically had the same thoughts.
As they did use nukes, I don't understand why that is the first option that comes up. I would think leading with them would destroy any hope of taking worlds that have something you want or need to use in further strikes.. Using them once you run into a snag would be more likely.
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Requiem
08/31/18 05:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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Increasing the size of any House’s Army once Amaris starts his coup would be automatic by all the house lords as who is there to enforce the law to maintain original limits upon size?
House Cameron no longer exists and Kerensky has better things to do – also if a House Lord is supplying military arms at the same time to the SLDF they are now in a position in which they can’t prosecute the House as it is no longer in their interests to do so.
And post Amaris each lord could easily hide any increase in the forces within hidden facilities located within hidden systems if it became necessary to do so.
As for the Shipyards – I have not read a rule saying they can’t be modular and moved around when necessary – so why not? – if they are then they have a tactical and strategic advantage and to me it just makes sense when creating them to provide for this advantage.
If larger naval shipyards can’t be moved then why not make smaller ones that can? Thus Financial costs can be minimized whilst once repairs ae made travel time in returning to the wars front line is minimized also thus providing fleet Admirals with fleet flexibility when it comes to repair work
Consider it like attaching many smaller mobile ship docks together to establish an even larger ship dock that can accommodate all the larger ships in the fleet.
It just makes tactical, strategic and financial sense that your ships are designed in such a manner so that they are able to complete this task whilst in the “field” – a hidden star system close to the front line as it were.
As for whom would run the League once Amaris was dealt with – whomever had the strongest military and could at the same time impose the fear of using that military upon their enemies would rule.
So the two strongest realms children united in marriage and placed on the throne plus the SLDF to back up their right to rule – would the remaining three Great Houses combine their forces so that one of them could be the next First Lord ….. doubtful ….. their petty bickering as to whom the next First Lord should be would scarper any military union by the remaining three Great Houses towards making any future venture towards the throne. (In addition public sentiment would be against them if they stared a war so close to the defeat of Amaris).
As for the use of nuclear armament- what was the loss of a couple of worlds when compared to the bigger prize of the Star League Throne itself?
As in a war for the throne it would be “find the biggest heaviest weapon and hit you enemy as hard and as often as you can until they do not get up again” kind of war.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/31/18 06:11 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sadly enough, the only thing that has been modular in the game was omni tech and the mech armor.
Now if you can show me an example of something else, then you might have a basis for the ship yards.
Not the I don't agree that there should be modular things in the game, but none of the rules seem to support it.
Well since the one novel had a battlemaster drop a ppc to punch a mech, they came out with hand held jettisoned devices.
Not sure if the smaller blocks could handle the needs of building the larger ships. Though the SL shipyards around Titan, should have alot of gravity wells to deal with. Jupiter itself being the big one.
Davion did have a large force then legal, as they were training them, then rotating them out of the military, but they did have the training to use the equipment. As for making more, I believe the League had complete access to the military makers of things like mechs. Don't think personal mechs were allowed in League time, but nothing to back that one up.
As for the use of nuclear armament- what was the loss of a couple of worlds when compared to the bigger prize of the Star League Throne itself?
One thread suggested this with the CC defending itself, and someone said they would not do so.
Now on a more realistic note. Destroying worlds with nukes is not a smart idea. You think a few worlds is nothing when trying to get the become first lord, but at that time, who really thought the League was going to be around?
No one. They knew it was dead, and it would not come back in their life time.
Destroying those worlds could well destroy needed resources as well as just farmlands to feed your people. Granted, not much that I have seen suggested anyone had shortages at that time, though the stories suggest they did during and after the first war.
Another aspect of destroying the worlds comes with needing air to refresh your ships. How many jumps can be done before complete air replacement? Not sure. And this does tie into the exodus.
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Requiem
09/01/18 02:09 AM
58.175.193.140
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Over time existing weapons systems have undergone retrofitting and including weapons upgrade packages – improving upon their exiting weapons systems to improve their survivability and lethality. This principle was extended to include Battlemechs, Armour, Aerospace Fighters and Dropships.
So why not extend this basic principle to shipyards – retrofitting them to improve upon their original design, thus providing a more advanced and flexible system that can be used for future tactical requirements and be there for the future benefit of the military.
As for Davion – hiding in plain sight – train people; rotate them out; however, establish secret supply depos so that when necessary a reserve unit can be armed quickly and deployed quickly to defend the home-front, and at the same time completely off the books (just another reservist garrison force?)
As for nukes –
1. Denying your enemy access to their military industrial complexes; and
2. Fear – Psy-ops – making your enemy capitulate due to fear of what might happen next is a legitimate strategy.
As for resources – no one knew that resources would become so scarce due to multiple Succession Wars fought over the years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/02/18 12:28 AM
58.175.193.140
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During the age of the Star League era Newgrange-class Yardships was established as a mobile repair and refit support vessel.
So why not design a new class of Yardship so that they can dock with another of the same class of Yardship(s) and become one Large Naval Shipyard.
The question then is how to transfer the modular pieces of a ship to this new shipyard to begin building new ships?
Have a complete manufacturing processing system upon a hidden world and once the ship(s) are ready to be put together the mobile Yardships jump in, combine into a Shipyard, build the ship then jump out so that no one realizes the existence of a complete ship manufacturing system in located within an uncharted system – due to the missing orbital Naval Shipyard that usually accompanies such a manufactory?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
09/10/18 01:15 AM
50.53.22.4
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Here's a nasty thought:
Aleksandr Kerensky knows he's too old to take up the First Lordship himself, and has no offspring[1] to succeed him anyway. He *does* know he has the "stroke" to appoint a successor -- the House Lords still respect him, and his decision-making skills -- but he also knows he cannot choose one of the HLs without touching off an Argument[2]. So, instead, he selects a new First Lord from among the remaining Terran Hegemony personnel who aided him in retaking Terra -- Jerome Blake makes a particularly interesting possibility -- with Kerensky himself "retiring" to an advisory position (making sure he's made the right call at the same time). The House Lords would likely accept this, each knowing it's the least-pessimal option -- "maybe I don't get to be First Lord, but at least none of *them* get to, either". And with the SLDF still being the biggest armed force in space, who's going to argue with Kerensky?
[1: Which asks the question: Just who the [CENSORED] *is* "Nicholas Kerensky" really? >:) ]
[2: Imagine if he had access to that ComStar transcript on p.54 of the first _House Davion_ sourcebook... >:) ]
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Requiem
09/10/18 04:47 AM
58.175.193.140
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This is an interesting point, I agree initially they would agree, however sooner or later each of the High Lords would attempt to assassinate both Kerensky and his proxy First Lord before he/she has any sires whilst at the same time attempting to graft their way to controlling the SLDF.
Then in a moment of turmoil they would attempt to take control of the Star League.
I am under the belief that only a Council of Lords, were each High Lord has one vote and at the same time them and their children are kept under protective custody on Terra – any communication with their realms can be done vie HPG – could preserve the Star League long enough for normality to once again become the norm.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/18 12:05 PM
66.74.61.223
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Nicholas is the love child he didn't know he had?
Kept in secret until he had proven he could take over, as alot of the plots go?
Adopted?
There was little stopping the house lords from doing that to any of the ruling line, as well as the League from wiping out house lords. Now what would have happened if all the house lords were to die before they left the league to wither?
The league would well move in to the vacuum and seal the league's future. No one would be opposing them, as they would have at least a major say in each house's affairs.
And yet, how different would it have been for just one house lord to have been killed?
Would this have prevented the war? Or thrown support behind one of the others so the war was done faster, and less destructive?
But if you go that route, the entire history after the league is null and void. A whole new line of stories would have to be done up, and maybe the IS would not be as bad off as it is. Then again, it may well be worse.
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Requiem
09/10/18 04:27 PM
58.175.193.140
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Aleksandr Kerensky was fully aware that his wife Katyusha and his two infant sons Nicholas and Andery were on Terra at the start of the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War. (As he was 64 when his eldest Nicholas was born)
(Side note – You can now understand why Nicholas chose to destroy everything his father had believed in, that of the Star League and the SLDF, due to his belief that he had been abandoned and disowned and then upon his return to Terra kept at arms-length to ensure the Hose Lords do not gain any knowledge of his existence by his hero father until it had become politically acceptable to allow them knowledge of their existence during the exodus)
If knowledge of his wife and two sons (now teenagers 16-15 years old) had become common knowledge, in all probability they would have become political chips (kidnapping and ransom) for the position of First Lord – though if they were ‘Kidnapped’ how could Aleksandr order the SLDF to rescue them as would this not be a civil issue?
If all or even just one of the Great Houses’ Lords were to die upon Terra – War, despite the difference in size of the Army the child of the slain lord would declare Aleksandr a murderer before all the people of the Inner Sphere and a second civil war would commence. The other House Lord would again do nothing until they believed the SLDF and their rival House Lord was weakened – they would then go for the prize of being First Lord – thus First Succession War would commence.
Though the scope of the War would have been limited to those worlds where the SLDF were posted – then a drive to reach Terra First, with taking and holding Terra and declaring their Liege Lord is ow the First Lord the war would go on until one Lord / House remained or a political accommodation was reached by the two largest realms (political marriage), thus they would have been in a position to cower the remaining House Lords (and if Aleksandr was still around he and the remaining SLDF may have also gotten behind this political union of the two strongest realms) .
So the war, in my opinion, wouldn’t have been as devastating as that of the 1st Succession War due to the reduced scope in the war’s area and in all probability the duration of the war.
So a second Star League First Family would have become a reality – the Inner Sphere would have been better off and who knows what level of technological development would have become a reality in the next 300-400 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/18 06:00 PM
66.74.61.223
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Some units in the army, may well have done independent actions to rescue them if kidnapped. Even against orders.
I would say you are missing some information with the death on Terra and war. The rival houses with shared boarders with the one trying to go to war, would jump at the chance to remove a rival. One less person to vote against you, as well as being able to keep the 'protectorate' worlds they took at the time.
And that is if the League was thought to have done the assassination. Any other house would rightfully go to war with the one that killed their leader, and frankly, the house on the other side of them would assist. The SDLF would have an issue there, which could go either way.
I don't think the 1st war would be limited to the League worlds around Terra. As said, remove threats to your people. What better way then to destroy the enemy on the other side of the border. Force them to surrender and recognize you as first lord, and vote with you in all things. The axe over the head concept. Or blackmail if you want to go that route.
I would think the first part of the first war, would be even more destructive then it was. Well at least for those worlds around Terra. All would have to destroy Kerensky's power base, to keep him from getting involved in the wars. Otherwise, all risk him siding with the enemy, as they know he would not be with them. Well a 20 percent chance to side with them, with 5 house lords available to choose from.
It may well be, those worlds as well as Terra would be uninhabitable still from the nukes that would have been used against them. Other WMDs as well.
This is with a different outcome of his leaving.
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Requiem
09/10/18 07:36 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes I agree some of the SLDF may go rogue and go after his kidnapped wife and children – however what would be the political ramifications for this, as they have now effectively gone rogue …. Dis-avow their actions – sending another SLDF force to stop them (even to the extent of using lethal force) and there would also be other political consequences for the SLDF (the price you pay for getting caught doing something you shouldn’t)
As for rival Houses, wouldn’t they just hang back until such a time as you have lost a large percentage of your forces in a war with the SLDF then attack – taking advantage of a weakened military.
As for Kerensky and the SLDF – rather than destroying them would it not be better to align with them as this would have given that House a greater claim to being the First Lord.
Unfortunately Kerensky will find himself in a nil sum game – no matter what he does it could / would lead to war with one or more of the Great Houses. The real trick is to get out of it without causing a war for the throne.
The only answer I can see is if all have the power and none have the title – make the position of First Lord Obsolete and force them to accept a Grand Council of the Star League …. This could have been done if a plea was made to all the people by sending out a message via Blake and the HPG network. (you get an Inner Sphere Spring?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 01:18 AM
66.74.61.223
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Send in other units and find out they are helping the 'rogue' unit rescue the hostages. Or drag your feet, and wait as long as you can before sending in the units to bring back the 'rogue' one.
Depending on the view and worlds you are talking about, waiting until the two butt head for a while might be counterproductive. Hesperus comes to mind as a big one, but any of the worlds the league/houses have could be used to a lesser extent. The fight may well destroy what you want on those worlds, so if you could get in, and take it, especially being seen as helping the SLDF, they may well let you retain those worlds. Granted, the League would not relinquish control of Hesperus, but I hope that gets the idea across.
I agree that there is no good solution to that issue, besides rejecting all the current rulers. Maybe getting a vote on the next generation might help solve some of the issues, but not likely. But there is a such a thing as being the power behind the throne. Support the 'heir' Kerensky puts up, and they may well be friendly to your nation.
Flare up on the border. Sure. We will have SLDF peacekeepers on world, and allow you to shape policy there, so we don't have a repeat. Or tell the opponent that they will be relieved of control for a while, until the situation improves (which it never does).
The house lords were the grand council, though the first lord regularly ignored their advise. In some cases, went counter to them, ie the house military reduction act.
And if I recall right, Blake was appointed head of comstar when the 1st war broke out.
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Requiem
09/11/18 04:30 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, you could assist rogue units, however sooner or later the House Lords would demand action against these units, to the extent they will send in their own forces against them.
Also what can be done if they are successful / unsuccessful in their mission regarding the hostages?
It is not as if they can be returned to the fold politically, or is it?
Hesperus is an interesting idea – what if the hostages are within this complex, how would it look SLDF forces assaulting a Lyran factory complex? Kerensky would have to inform the Inner Sphere that the SLDF forces are attempting to recover his family, who have been kidnapped, otherwise how would this appear to the people of the Inner Sphere as to why a SLDF unit is assaulting this complex?
As the SLDF become peacekeepers on the borders Kerensky must ensure he does not decrease his centralised power around Terra. If he does one of the House Lords will attempt to conquer it – that is unless he has made the planet inviolate in one way or another.
Though what about Comstar and their control over the HPG network – could Kerensky have threatened the House Lords with an Inner Sphere wide Interdiction of the HPG net if they do not behave and come to the table and be part of the Star League Council. Reactivating each sector as their Lord arrives upon Terra to take up their post.
Thus Blake and Kerensky form a joint front to ensure the continuance of the Star League – militarily and through the Communication Network.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 05:09 PM
66.74.61.223
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With the fall of the Star League, control of Defiance Industries passed to the Lyran Commonwealth, who assigned control to the Brewer family.
I knew the league controlled defiance, but had to find the proof of it.
So no. The league would not have been assaulting a Lyran facility.
And returning rogue units to work isn't that hard. Court martial, demotion, and hide in other units until the situation cools down. The would need a scape goat, but a fake death of the commanding office could cover it.
And the example was if a war between the League and the LC, they could well destroy the facilities. The DC or FWL could send in their forces to help take control of the facility, and retain that control if the Kerensky still decided to leave. But that is along the lines of him staying and trying to make the league work.
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Requiem
09/11/18 05:42 PM
58.175.193.140
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Then just change the example from that of Defiance Industries to that of a Capitol World.
Same problem, in that how could the SLDF justify to the people of the Inner Sphere that such an action is necessary?
As for creating a fake court-martial, yes you could go down this track, however, what if evidence as to this fake became public – what next?
And if Kerensky did stay in an attempt to make it work – would not an alliance between him and Blake’s new Comstar make sense in that they could drive the House Lords to the table by shutting down the HPG network and having the military might in enforcing this – especially if every world and all the people on this would was told they were doing this action to ensure peace in their time as each House was on the verge of starting a nuclear war and this was they only way they could see as a means of stopping such a useless war – especially since each house Lord was part of the government and they were starting a war based upon their own avarice and greed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 10:25 PM
66.74.61.223
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How could you justify attacking terrorists that have kidnapped your family?
Did you really suggest this?
Evidence of fake evidence comes out quite often now. How do they cover it?
One method is spamming the information sources with fake news with some truth, some lies, and saying it is all lies. And as you suggested with Comstar/WOB withholding information on the coms, the League had control at that time.
And Blake was appointed to rebuild the network in 2780. Comstar came about as a name change after the SLDF had gone on the exodus. So the power Blake had, was not that great at the time. The only reason he was appointed was all the house leaders didn't have a huge problem with it.
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Requiem
09/12/18 04:35 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, we are discussing each Great Houses’ Lords possible responses to becoming First Lord and how Kerensky could have kept the Star League together.
Second, rather than attempting to convince each Great Houses Lord as to a possible solution going to the people of the entire Star League and informing them of a solution and the reason(s) why each Great Houses Lord would not accept it at that time is a justifiable way of forcing each Great Houses Lord to accept Kerensky’s solution.
As, how long could each House’s Lord remain in power without the support of the people they are supposedly governing?
Thus, with the aid of Blake and the HPG network he can get his side of the story and his solution to the Issue of not having a First Lord, thus preventing an unnecessary War, to the entire population of the Inner Sphere.
So, how many respect Kerensky above that of even their own House Lord?
Did he not vanquish Amaris when each house lord just sat of their hands and did nothing?
So why not use the respect of the people to obtain a non-violent (War) solution to the problem of not having a First Lord – thus going to a Council of Lords to manage the affairs of the Star League?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 05:02 PM
66.74.61.223
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Human nature. I don't care as long as it isn't in my back yard.
So, how many respect Kerensky above that of even their own House Lord?
This is a very apt question. How many would trust the Terran Hemegony over their own rulers? It isn't like everyone wanted to join the League. Paying taxes to yet another organization that didn't do a whole lot for you and your world, yet kept spending trillions on their war toys?
Basically feasting, while those not part of it starved.
So yeah. How many would care about that?
So Kerensky attacked Amaris for taking control of the Star League. How many people rose up in protest when their state rulers did NOTHING to help in that war?
And Kerensky could very well elect or raise up another house ruler to the position and leave them high and dry.
If you leave out the League worlds, you have 5 nations that could be raised up with their leader being installed into power. That is 80 percent likely, verses your 20 percent of being the one.
What odds are you looking at?
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Cray
09/12/18 05:29 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
So Kerensky attacked Amaris for taking control of the Star League. How many people rose up in protest when their state rulers did NOTHING to help in that war?
It's worth noting that the people of the Terran Hegemony voted Amaris in. It wasn't a completely clean vote, but they were really disgusted with the last Cameron and Amaris had really secured the favor of the Hegemony's nobles. Since Amaris was from the Rim Worlds Republic - an area heavily settled by the Hegemony for 200 years - this coup wasn't any weirder than, say, Germans voting an Austrian into power.
That sort of puts Kerensky and the tepid response from the Houses in a clearer light. At the beginning, the Houses were looking at a duly (?) elected new leader of the Hegemony. A popular changeover backed by the Hegemony's nobility is hard for Houses to question, especially when they're 100-pound chimpanzees compared to the Hegemony's 500-pound gorilla. (Look at Field Reports: 2750. House militaries had nothing on the Hegemony.) And what's that mean for Kerensky? He was in rebellion, maybe.
Amaris proved himself to be a douche in the long run, but the situation wasn't cut and dried at the beginning of the Star League Civil War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
09/12/18 06:03 PM
58.175.193.140
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Is it not usually the fringe group who bemoan the saying “not in my yard”?
And yet how many still pay their taxes, gripe about it, and yet life keeps on moving forward and they still keep paying their taxes each year?
For in life there are three certainties are there not? And one of them is taxes.
As for people of the Inner Sphere helping Kerensky during the Amaris – Kerensky Civil War an example would be the Lyrans who voyaged out to Kerensky’s forces ”in Droves” to become part of his ‘Mech reconnaissance forces (if I remember correctly in their purple ‘Mechs).
I am still under the belief that if Kerensky had elected to rise one of the House Lords above that of his/her piers sooner or later either an assassination would occur (putting the problem right back to square one) or a War would commence when the remaining Houses Armies begin a war against the SLDF and that Lord’s (who was elevated to the position of First Lord) army.
No, the only correct step would have been to ensure the position of First Lord can never be revived – then ensure a council of lords rules where each state is given an equal voice.
This is the only possible way forward, in my opinion, that could have stopped a succession war.
And the only way to bring these Lords to the table would be through mass protests by the people of the Inner Sphere demanding of their leaders to act responsibly (as per Kerensky’s peaceful vision for the future).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 12:06 AM
66.74.61.223
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Major cities constantly fight things being built in there city. Nuclear waste being one of them. Not a fringe group. Garbage dumps. Tearing down buildings for new farms. There is a whole slew of things that the fringe does not have the exclusive rights to say NIMBY.
Paying taxes or be arrested and serve jail time, possibly losing house and home? Hmmm.. Tough one to figure out.
A lot of the regular people were not benefitting from the League, like the house rulers or big companies. I would think the little man suffered even more. Taxes being one, while being forced to do what those in collusion wit the League decide. They want your lands, they can get it thru eminent domain. Who is going to stop them? Planetary leaders? House leaders?
All of those units that went out in droves would be court martialed, with probable execution had Kerensky not won. They disobeyed orders to stay put, and endangered the Commonwealth to repraisals.
I don't doubt assassination would come hard and fast if Kerensky had propped up one of the house leaders. They almost did with Davion before they left. But with that, you think the FWL or LC would attack Davion if the CC or DC did? Or the League? They would more likely hit the weakened back side of the invading houses and forced a reconsideration of their nomination. They would have more territory, and stronger forces then those that did attack the league and other house. Davion is only used as they were being looked at. Any house could be considered in this discussion.
Again. The only correct step? This is not alt history, but saying the writers were wrong. It was stated most would have supported Kerensky as first lord. He was not interested. Had he done it, the league would have lasted longer. Probably failed once he died, but then others may well have gotten into a position to take it without the war.
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Requiem
09/13/18 05:15 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, the Lyrans who went to help Kerensky were civilians’ not military personnel – Kerensky trained them and gave them ‘Mechs from which to fight for him. Thus no court martials and no reprisals.
The question is what could Kerensky do to stop, what would be seen at that time, as an inevitable war between all the Great Houses as they squabble over who should rule as first Lord.
No matter who he chooses from the exiting Lords the others will not accept Kerensky’s decision.
Thus the only possible way forward is something out of the box …
As far as I can see there are only two paths open (rather than ratting off into the void)
First, A council of Lords where each state will have an equal voice.
Second, A political marriage between Houses Davion and Kurita by forcing John Davion’s Son (John Davion) or one of Minoru Kurita’s Sons (probably Zabu the younger son) and an unknown female from either Davion / Kurita minor branch family line to marry and become the the new ‘Cameron’ First Family. (Both the male and female could also come from their respective minor branch families also just as long as the Minoru and John both accept it at the time – probably at the end of a gun)
As only a union between these two, at this time could possibly stop a future war.
Then the SLDF, Federated Suns and Draconis Combine militaries would force peace upon the remaining Houses.
And in all probability Kerensky would have to make this a shotgun wedding.
Thus if the people accept it, the Houses accept it, it could stick and thus there wouldn’t have been a succession war.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 03:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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Why the Davion/Kurita lines? Any pairing could be done.
The council of lords would still need someone to lead them. A first lord would still be needed, as a 5 way split on alot of things would happen. There needs to be someone to break that cycle.
No reprisals? I don't think that is fully accurate, but then nothing in the canon material says otherwise.
The fact, it would be better to have two houses on opposite sides of the most likely to start a war over it, so they would have 3 opponents to deal with comes to mind if going the marriage route was used.
Steiner was an industrial powerhouse that would benefit anyone they sided with. The FWL has advantages as well. Kurita and Liao would be the most likely to start a war.
But arranged marriages don't normally work.
Who raises the child? One state or the other.
How do you teach him what is best for all?
Each side would push for the child to do their bidding. And the parents would have their ideas.
The war might just start if the child takes the values from one house over the other.
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Requiem
09/13/18 07:39 PM
58.175.193.140
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Sorry no, you could not have just any pairing.
Davion line has the support of the Star League in his egalitarian views plus his massive Army will help.
Kurita because if you do not include them they will start a war no matter what! However, their Inclusion however will ensure the Star Leagues continuance plus they also have a massive army.
The other three can be, at that time, negotiated with to accept this union – thus ensure the Star Leagues continuance
The Council of Lords does not need a leader just a very good bureaucracy.
If you want someone to have the gavel – just rotate it each meeting.
If you just have five members each with one vote how would there be a problem where yu need someone to break the vote?
If the Marriage route was taken you would have the armies of the Federated Suns, Draconis Combine and the STDF Vs. Lyran Commonwealth, Free Worlds League and the Capellan Confederation – guess which side would win?
It is surprising how many arranged marriages work – Have a look at India.
As for the Children they would remain on Terra where they would receive a very comprehensive education.
Yes, the Grandparents and Parents would have issues with regards to their First Lord children / Grand-children but the council of Lords will still have power (look at when Richard Cameron ordered the House Lords to disband their military).
Doubtful a war would start based upon a decision made by the new First Lord, it hasn’t in the past due to the absolute size of the SLDF so why now?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 10:42 PM
66.74.61.223
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It is surprising how many arranged marriages work – Have a look at India.
Bad example. They are in a social lock down much like the clans are. Only marriage will allow movement up, while you can fall in status from mistakes. They are set to accept it, as there is little way to change it. There are other issues there as well, but won't get into them.
Massive armies? This is the same house lords stuck with the leagues ruling on having large armies? The trick Davion did was not as effective as most would think. This is when the Combine invaded them first. To remove all the toys from the weekend warriors before they really learned how to fight.
Doubtful a war would start based upon a decision made by the new First Lord, it hasn’t in the past due to the absolute size of the SLDF so why now?
In the past, there was an established first lord and a family line. All agreed, they would run the League. Now you are trying to force a new line on those in the league, and you don't think they would revolt? And that isn't saying that either the DC or FS would sit out of it, letting the others beat them selves silly, then take control of all of it?
Also, the first lord had a very good control over the League. At this point, they would not have the loyalty of the legions under their command. It is very possible the League would split into a civil war. Kerensky was the only one that could hold them together. And even that was starting to show signs of failure. I don't think the council would have accepted the marriage route, as it meant sharing power with a hated family. And as said before. All or nothing.
Also something that needs to be pointed out at this time. The SLDF has been thru 2 wars in a row. The periphery conflict, then Amaris. How large are they really at this point?
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Requiem
09/14/18 01:52 AM
58.175.193.140
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Once a new first Lord is established (Davion / Kurita Lineage) no I am positive the remaining House Lords would not revolt and start a war over the idea of who the First Lord is.
First the remaining three Houses, Liao, Marik and Steiner, would have to form a consolidated front against the SLDF, Kurita and Davion. This means these three would have to decide in advance who they want to replace the current First Lord with. Can anyone see these three individuals coming to a consensus on this point? And I cannot see an individual House going against the combined might of the SLDF, Kurita and Davion.
Good Control over the League?
He ordered his Lords to disarm …. Was laughed at … and promptly put in his place by those same Lords.
He began a program of replacing his own military with that of amaris’
More to the point he was a child who was pretending to rule.
As for the SLDF, if Kerensky did die during this time period, his adjutant was more than capable of stepping up to the plate and taking control.
So in all opinion I believe both options could have worked if presented in the correct way.
As for their size – look at the Operation Exodus facts – in it it states that 113 Divisions Remain
Operation Exodus also included 1,349 JumpShips 402 WarShips and over 5,000 Dropships
So add on another 20% to these and you should be in the vicinity of the total SLDF Force pre Operation exodus.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/14/18 11:20 AM
66.74.61.223
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The last Cameron was the one that had no real control over the league. Most of the others did.
As for the SLDF, if Kerensky did die during this time period, his adjutant was more than capable of stepping up to the plate and taking control.
Control of the army, but probably not the government. People knew Kerensky, or the image he had, and trusted him. Someone else stepping into that position would not have the support Kerensky did.
I can agree it could have worked presented correctly. And it would depend on the leaders at the time.
113 divisions. Was that in name only, as some casualties might have caused them to have taken heavy losses? Rebuilt to full strength? Were they all of the division in the exodus, or did they have units in that division stay?
And this isn't saying they were at full strength to begin with. I suspect some were a few units in the division, but were never the full division. Maybe a battalion in an RCT situation. Also, you run into the ones that are oversized. This is the issue without the hard numbers.
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