House Archaeology Units

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ghostrider
01/31/20 03:11 PM
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There is one major ship yard that was 'discovered' during the clan war. Camelot Command.
With that said, it is very possible ships were placed in a remote system to be disassembled when time permitted. I say remote, as you do not want everyone knowing there were ships ready to be taken by a force large enough to do to. And to have multiple ones as well.
Some ships took 18 months to build, and they tended to be built in multiple shipyards, did they multiple mothball areas?
The LC pulled out their last warship out of a museum to take on the DCs last warship. Comstar had theirs mothballed, but it does make you wonder... What did the SLDF do with the periphery's warships that were captured? I don't know if they used them to take on Amaris, though their lower tech might still have been forced into service.

Just sections of a warship wouldn't be all that could be taken. Simple things, like ammo feeds or electronics could give rise to advancing the rediscovery of warships. Simply taken the coding for weapons targeting from a working model would advance such ideas.
Learning advanced techniques, like life support that wasn't as big and bulky as standard could be done. Even the layout might well help rebuild ships.
It isn't like all ships dies because of the same reason in the same location. If you live in an area where you get rear ended in car accidents that wipe out the left rear bumper, would give rise to a lack of parts for it. But say you found a car that the front end was destroyed, and the rear was in good shape. Needs in one location may well be solved by something in another location.

I could see this as plausible, though not that often.
It does lead to the what if scenario.
What if there was a few ships that weren't decommed in such a location, that the SLDF taken off stopped them from being 'fixed' to avoid any use. A full operational, minus ammo, ship could well be found there. If you want to be a really nice GM, then having it stocked, and just shut down could be done.
And the clans lost some of their records during the formation period of the clans, I don't think they would know them all anymore. They forgot Camelot Command after all.
Requiem
01/31/20 03:58 PM
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Quote:
There is one major ship yard that was 'discovered' during the clan war. Camelot Command.



How many shipyards should there have been within the former TH? How many could still be orbiting a Lost / Destroyed world? How many damaged shipyards could be rebuilt and refurbished?

Considering the vast armadas the TH produced – both military (warships) and merchant navy (Jump-ships) – where are their shipyards? It is inconceivable that they were only produced within the Terran system.

And yes there must be ship breaking yards – where are they, what could still be there?

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What did the SLDF do with the periphery's warships that were captured?



In all probability, I would suggest they (the SLDF) just renamed it and then painted a Cameron Star on the Hull. It would then be pressed into the SLDF Navy and this would have occurred with any Amaris Warship / Commercial Jumpship captured as well.

(Though for Navy personnel renaming it may be seen by some as jinxing it, a ship cannot have two souls! That is unless you go through a traditional ceremony to appease the gods ……)

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…. Building a Frankenstein Ship …..



I believe that everything that can be salvaged will be salvaged.

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If you want to be a really nice GM



There are many different scenarios available from totally destroyed to near pristine and ready to go ….

New Table to reflect what is found? And what class?

Yes I agree this is plausible Alt. Universe game scenario that should be considered for your home game.

Though care must be taken for when you return from Lost Worlds to the IS, every great House will now put a bulls eye on your unit to find out your secrets. Clearly this should only be allowed under the auspices of one of the Great Houses Government – you may get a Jumpship out of it, but the Warship remains with your employer (unless warships are common within your universe so that it will not upset the game unduly.

Though this will add a great game for your unit and will expand the many interesting sites to visit within the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
01/31/20 09:14 PM
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The questions should be how many ship yards are in the other areas close to the periphery states? Camelot can not be the only one built, though I can understand if all the rest were destroyed. I can also see that some uninhabited systems might hold something, even if it is just a holding area for ships.

I will counter part of that, as not only the Dragoons had personal warships, but the Blue Star Irregulars ended up with one. So it isn't like the IS houses forced them to turn over their ships, with the Dragoons being unlikely to be ordered in the first place. And what do you do if you find such a thing when employed with a house or even noble within a nation? The Argo was very unlikely situation that an employer would gift a unique ship to a mercenary unit.
Requiem
01/31/20 11:44 PM
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Quote:
The questions should be how many ship yards are in the other areas close to the periphery states?




Yes I agree … you have come up with an excellent scenario … thanks.

2577-2597 – The Reunification War – where each of the four major Periphery realms were conquered;
2765 – The New Vandenberg Uprising – began in the Taurian Concordat – substantial numbers of SLDF troops were redeployed away from the core worlds to fight unrest (in the Periphery);

Camelot Command – uses as the homeport of the Star League’s Twelfth Fleet for capital ship repairs, refitting and supply during actions against the Rim Worlds Republic ….

There must be multiple “Camelot Command” Stations scattered throughout the IS and close to each of the four major periphery realms to enable each SL Fleet to propagate activities within each of these periphery states …. And there may even be multiple stations to allow each fleet the flexibility to engage a periphery state from a different direction ….

I also wouldn’t put it past the SL Navy to have established a station close to each Great Houses Capital – in the even t a Great House goes rogue they could then use the station as a spring board to invade the rogue capital world …

Could they still exist, yes I do believe they could still exist. When considering the level of security that is seen with regards to the Dark Nebula Camelot Command each station must be well and truly difficult to find and gain access to ….

So, where is their access information as well as their location maps? …. Lost to time or hidden within a secret Fleet Admiralty Station within the former TH …. So you may need to find this first ….

This scenario makes for an interesting game, especially when you consider the ramifications of what could happen when a station falls to the wrong hands …..

How far would some Great Houses go to locate this information? Could your unit have a spy in it for an unknown agency?

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…. it isn't like the IS houses forced them to turn over their ships,….



Here I wonder why? Being the only Great House with a Navy vessel, how far would any state go to achieve this?

Also, when the Dragoons are working for a rival House, how many would actively target these vessels – or do they fall under the Ares Conventions … “a code of conduct which would ensure the survival of both knowledge and the increasingly irreplaceable JumpShips”, thus making them sacrosanct.

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The Argo was very unlikely situation that an employer would gift a unique ship to a mercenary unit.



I cannot see any situation where a warship would ever become a mercenary unit.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/01/20 02:20 AM
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The argo wasn't a warship, but a unique dropship. One that could dock to a jumpship, and have another attach to it for the jump. It was also able to allow their crew to modify mechs inside the bays, as well as store an large amount of cargo, as you could store at least 10 mechs, though they were split up into 3 parts on the easy mode of the game.
The question of why can't ships double dock on jumpships has come up, as you can fit a behemoth in a docking collar, but couldn't stack a pair of Leopards on one?
This came about when it was suggested the SL Octopus tug could remain attached to a ship that is was moving on a jumpship. Again, inconsistant things going on.

Given how many 'undiscovered' caches and secret research bases, the idea of a few that missed the succession wars is possible. One that might have been both a research base as well as a warship production facility. Make something that can be used to spy on others, yet disclaimed if they are ever seen. Or experimenting with longer jumps. There is a whole line of things that could be used to support this idea. Even dropships with naval weapons being researched when the League fell is possible. A new dropship that didn't get finished for instance. That is the story behind the Stone Rhino(Behemoth) mech. So it isn't like it would be unique in being used as a back story.
Requiem
02/01/20 05:07 AM
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Quote:
…..inconsistent things going on.



Double docking of multiple drop-ships – Sarna.net wiki Docking Collar

The structural integrity of a docking collar should not be a problem when an individual collar costs 10,000 C-Bills.

The issue should be the jump-ship’s jump field – does it completely extends to and encompasses all the docked ships as well as the double docked ships.

So if the field does cover them I cannot see a problem.

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There is a whole line of things that could be used to support this idea. Even dropships with naval weapons being researched when the League fell is possible.



I would prefer naval weapons on Amaris (and in the future WoB) Drones.

As for me – when my unit went looking for lost technology within the former TH – came out with the plans for Titan and Cargo-Master.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/01/20 11:30 AM
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The issue with the game and docking collars falls into the hole of fitting into the KF boom. A Behemoth is much larger then even two of the average aerodyne dropships, yet you can't do a double docking. One on top of the other. Unless they dock with the engines against the dropship, but even then, I don't see why you couldn't stack them along the spine if there is room. Also, it doesn't allow for something like a simple cargo container to be used to dock with the jumpship, then allow a dropship to dock with it.

The KF boom is another wild card. Just how far can it extend from the ship?
What is the minimum it can deal with? The distance of the nose or sail sections being the thought. Yet the spinnerets of the sails looks to be far beyond most dropship sizes.
Quite the distance, as they were using multiple ships to move ice burgs. I am not suggesting two Behemoths would fit, but a pair of Buccaneers or something like it would. Also the wiki says weight isn't an issue.
Except for a few worlds, the idea of a dropshuttle would be useless as space on jumpships are implied to be filled almost all of the time.

Might be a design to make. A dropship that has a docking collar or two on it, so other dropships can dock with it, making space to allow more movement of cargo. Almost like a T on piping. It would allow communications from the other ships to interface with the jumpships controls, so it could accurately calculate the entire payload for all attached.
Requiem
02/01/20 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Drop-ships, docking collars and the jump-ship’s jump field….



Yes I agree there are issues when you look at the practice of utilizing a drop-ship logically. All I can suggest is add it to the list of all issues that make no sense. But when the games core idea is maintain a simple is best policy (even when it doesn’t make sense) – there will always be problems within the game. Unfortunately it is a core tenant of the game / construction rule so I doubt it will ever change.

You always have the option of creating a Home rule based upon how a magnetic field works – create a proximity field distance based upon the strength of your Jump-ships engine as well as a total mass level you can transport per Jump-ship engine strength – then just allow a total number of drop-ships allowed based upon their individual sizes / double docking and mass.

Remember the cost of a docking collar is practically nothing – thus the engineering behind it must be very simple for a drop-ship when either Jumping between systems or when moving to a recharge station.

Problem – turning the game into a mathematical exercise – can’t have that can we?, as it would make the game too logical as well as ensuring accuracy within the game – (It would also turn the game into an accountants / mathematicians exercise – and you would loose much of the fun simple actions) – it’s like the idea of having an accurate loss depletion report for every battle – can’t have that as it would mean that TPTB would actually have to explain how they came to some of their decisions within the game that made no sense whatsoever!

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Cargo transport within the IS



Many of the larger cargo transport drop-ships are unable to land on the planet necessitating the transport of its cargo by shuttle .

Cargo
Mammoth – 37,767 tons
Behemoth – 75,121 tons

So, how many round trips would this take and how long would it take even if you had a large fleet of shuttles (and most worlds would not have access to more than a few)? Plus what about the idea of cargo box size? As well as the idea of transporting Perishables?

However, during the SL era there was the Department of Mega Engineering - so where are the space elevators?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

However, this would mean that the future transfer of all cargo would then become an efficient exercise.

Or are we to assume every one of these (on every world) were also destroyed during the 1st SW?

Can I add this to the list of things we can’t make – like that of terra-forming even though the IS’s technology rating has been F – from 3060 onwards – even above that of the Star League era – so can anyone explain why there isn’t a company per House creating these elevators to allow for greater economic development for worlds that rely upon export / import of goods?

Too sensible an idea, even for just the Capitol of each Great House?

Or are we to assume they are just too expensive (and not cost efficient)?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/01/20 03:48 PM
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Tharkad would be a good place to try some type of terraforming. If to remove some of the cold weather it has.

To be honest, I think it would be easier for shipping if they had some sort of transfer point at the jump points, so they could just dock something like a Behemoth with it, and move all the cargo meant for that system, and load up cargo for the next jump. Then use system ships to move the cargo to the world(s) they were meant for as well as bring out going items to the transfer station.
The could really cut down on wasting a lot of fuel, especially when there is lots of little cargo runs in system. But then that would severely cut into raids, as any ship that isn't a registered, known cargo vessel would draw attention immediately, as it should be that the jump point, not on the way to any worlds.

Now watch how you phrase mathematical nightmare, as more then a few suggesting would bog down game play. Even the needed sensor idea would do so.
But changing the number of dropships that can be brought into a system doesn't really get that involved with math. Right now, a max of 9 for a monolith. Limiting that to just double would be 18.

Just thought about this. It would allow forces with just Leopard dropships to come in bulk, not just 1 or 2 for the smaller jumpships. An invader or merchant class jumpship could only carry two at this time. 4 would be just doubling. It would allow for more raiders in one shot.

Another thought. A suggestion to using this concept in a game might well be the coordinates being recorded in a system, but have it with a false time line, such as the date of some special occasion.
Saying the League was formed on dec(12) of 2199, instead of the real date.
Then one or two entries could be the combination code to accessing the facility or one that has the information to where the one you are looking for is at.


Edited by ghostrider (02/01/20 03:52 PM)
Requiem
02/01/20 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Logistics



There are many different ways to transfer cargo from cargo drop-ships to worlds. As each would have a different economy to work with – as well as many corporations would have their own technological capabilities when it comes to available technology.

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Mathematics in the game



The game can be simple and unrealistic or complex and realistic – to be both at the same time will require many optional rules.

How many list are out there – my private list reaches almost 3 pages as to the points I would like to see changed and why.

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…. changing the number of drop-ships that can be brought into a system….Right now, a max of 9 for a monolith.



Potemkin Class – Dropship Capacity 25

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…. (more) smaller jump-ships….invader or merchant class….would allow for more raiders in one shot.



Correct, however I would leave individual strategies up to each gamming team as to how they would want to prosecute their own war.

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…. a false time line….



Alt. Universe? Is this designed to increase the rate of IS technological development prior to the Clan invasion of during the Clan invasion?

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….TPTB….



In creating the clans in such prodigious numbers – as well as so far removed from the IS, has created a logistical nightmare when it comes to establishing realms between the two empires.

Question: what is the long term goal of having two separate empires – the tyranny of distance makes combat between the two realms extremely difficult.
In the long run shouldn’t these two realms have been closer so that war could eventuate on more than the one Invasion Corridor war? Why create the space between the two realms if you don’t establish many new realms between them, and then have them all fighting each other throughout their prolonged history?
It would make more sense than the mess of a history the canon university suggests is correct ….

Start with Europe (the IS)
Then the pilgrimage to the new world (the exodus)
Rather than Europe imposing their will over the pilgrims we have the pilgrims (the Clans) imposing their will over Europe (the IS)

Next?
The Gold rush – the rush for new land
The Indian wars – settlers Vs. Corporations
The quest for statehood and law and order
The quest for nationhood
Wars between nations over borders and resources…

Question – if the ultimate goal is to have a Universe wide War Between

The Axis – The Clans and all states aligned to them; and
The Allies – the new SL and all states aligned to them

Then why provide one side with a massive warship navy and the other with nothing whatsoever?

Plus what I am suggesting here is wars into the hundreds of years into the future …. And not the limiting wars that would occur by limiting the battlefield to only the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 06:29 PM)
ghostrider
02/01/20 08:05 PM
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First point that needs to be asked is how many Potemkins does the IS own? 0?

A false time line wasn't saying an alt at all. It would be naming a well known event in the games history, such as the formation of the Star League, and using a wrong date. A secret message telling those that read it, some code to use, or maybe a coordinate on the world or even in the system. Longitude, Latitude sort of thing. Even jump coordinates could be given out this way.
Like saying the 4th succession war started in 3031, meaning 30 degrees north, by 31 degrees east. You go there and find a facility hidden in jungle/forest/cave/underwater.
The is says something like war ended in 3049. Meaning a combo of 30, 4, 9.
To anyone not paying attention, they would think it was just a horribly wrong book. To an intel agent, it might be just a location and code for a facility they need to report to. Use that as a drop box, then find another clue.

Most in the IS would be more worried about where they were at, with the exception of taking out the clans. It would be stupid to think the refusal war would end the clans invasion, but building up forces to take them out would be the ideal solution. Not just running off and making new worlds to have to guard from not only the clans, but even political entities in our own government. Some would do so, but not in the numbers suggested. Companies might sponsor some expeditions to find new resources, but that would not start off with 30,000 people being sent to a world. 3000 is far to many. Maybe 30 or so to scout it out. Depending on how long it takes to find anything of value, another couple of years to even 10, to send the next 3000.
The realm you want should run into the millions, maybe even hundred millions of people. Not likely with a hostile enemy in the potential area. The expansion from Terra was different. There were no known organized military entities that would destroy you quickly. Pirates did come up, but they were nothing like the clans.

To be honest, a galaxy wide war would have started with greater clan numbers, then have them have their little spats with issues, and slowly start building their 'empires' soon after being formed. Then when the IS stopped the invasion clans, they broke down into a civil war as all started accusing each other of sabotaguing the invasion or the other clans to make sure they were not allowed to be part of it. Much like the Jaguars/Falcons making sure no other crusader clan could compete with taking Terra, so that would permanently remove those clans from being anything but fodder for the winner.
This would also be used to suggest who ever won Terra, would start wiping out the other political entity in the clans. Warden/Crusader lines.
Greed would be another reason why the clans would have split. Why should the invasion clans get more equipment, as they were poor warriors to even lose them to the supposed inferior IS forces? My clan can't expand because all the production is going to them. Not acceptable.
Requiem
02/01/20 09:55 PM
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Quote:
First point that needs to be asked is how many Potemkins does the IS own? 0?



… and how many could they make, as all they need is the plans – they could even make derivatives of the original?

So, a false time line refers to a cryptography cipher ….

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Most in the IS would be more worried about where they were at, with the exception of taking out the clans.



This would require an understanding the each worlds / Houses sociology – assuming they are the same as any current culture could be accurate or it could be well off the mark. Even in the past 30 years the sociology of many countries have shifted to a new norm. So, who is to say what the dominant societies within the IS could be? To this end I can on assume that every GM and player has the right to determine this for their own Alt. Universe.

The Canon universe, as it is presented, is a very one dimensional portrait of the civilians of the IS – one that cannot explain the difference between the civilians and that of the warriors. Its basic assumption that whole planets will just roll over for one 15 “Mech Company and with no infantry is laughable. The idea that fostering or the Caste system would be readily accepted by many worlds is also laughable – and yet by allowing many worlds to remain under the thumb of the clans it is expected that this is accepted as fact, and that no one objects, and their compliance will be ensured …..

Sorry, but if the TPTB expect me to believe in this severely damaged IS society there is something severely wrong somewhere.

As for creating a new realm through the “wagon train / gold rush” approach – greed and the desire for a better life have always ensured the expansion of the human race – in the future all it will require is the technology.

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The realm you want should run into the millions, maybe even hundred millions of people. Not likely with a hostile enemy in the potential area. The expansion from Terra was different. There were no known organized military entities that would destroy you quickly. Pirates did come up, but they were nothing like the clans.



Diseases … famine ….pestilence….shipwrecked….the possibility of meeting another sentient life form …. The unknown … etc. etc.

It is not only our fellow man we need to fear in the coldness of space ….

And yet we still left the cradle of humanity for the vastness of space …. Which would have required a vast amount of faith and belief as well as the desire for freedom in our solitude from other colonies throughout the IS…..

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a galaxy wide war



When two or more sides arise where each has a perfect belief in their righteousness – and each has a vast military force, then you see a vast war that could encompass everything and everywhere …..

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Much like the Jaguars/Falcons making sure no other crusader clan could compete with taking Terra, so that would permanently remove those clans from being anything but fodder for the winner.



…and here I thought it was going to be more like the one ring to rule them all – the one ring being the right to call your clan the il-Clan …… However, I would like to point out one point, the Clans are Mongols – so even if a Clan won the title today, tomorrow the title could be won in combat by another …. only the current strength of your Khan as well as your Touman can allow you to be called the il-Clan, if this ever changes another will rise up to take it!

Quote:
Much like the Jaguars/Falcons making sure no other crusader clan could compete with taking Terra, so that would permanently remove those clans from being anything but fodder for the winner.



Fist you would have to prove it on and off the battlefield through the use of skillful alliances – lest you enemies combine their forces and destroy you!

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Greed would be another reason why the clans would have split. Why should the invasion clans get more equipment,



…and here I though every Clan had its own military industrial facilities as well as R&D unit.

Expecting every other Clan that is not the il-Clan to pay them a tithe (rent) is getting a little too far fetched – the loss in pride to even suggest an action is unbelievable – better the Clan die off in combat than become the subservient vassal for another …. Their pride would never allow such a situation!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/01/20 11:53 PM
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One of the books suggested that the clan leaders requisition the units, and have then made.
But that goes counter to the Huntress invasion, as well as the Snow Ravens being the main space manufacturing facilities.
The R&D seems fit that each clan has their own, as the heavy laser was from one, while the Epona omni tank came from another.

As stated, most. Not all of the IS would be concerned about where they lived.
For some, the lure of the lands of the free would pull them to do so. It seems that most don't want to deal with possible pirates, or a hard life. The lack of some items would seem to limit those that want to head out and make their own cities and worlds. Large corporations are a different story, and the military would be a toss up. Spreading out their forces isn't something they want, but the ability to strike an enemy in the flank is. So their interest would be short term. Use it as a staging ground, then dump it later.

Being based on, but not actual Mongols being the key here. There are a very large differences in their thinking, which also applies to each clan. Grouping them together is much like saying the entire IS is the same. It isn't.

The thing with the prize for Terra, it was agreed it would make the first clan the Ilclan forever. Not sure how long an agreement like that is, but to suggest only 4 could become such, would not sit well with the other clans. Even if they were weak, they would not just sit back and allow this to happen. If nothing else, they would be using the invasion as a cover for hitting them with trials of possession, if there wasn't an agreement to prevent that. And even then, I doubt it would stop it entirely.
Requiem
02/02/20 12:57 AM
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Quote:
…..clan leaders requisition the units, and have then made.



Requisition units?
Sending in an official order to whom, and for what? This sounds like mercenary units ….

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It seems that most don't want to deal with possible pirates, or a hard life.



Or maybe the lure of a massive plot of land or a fresh start is more appealing ….

As for limited resources …. How much did the first exodites have with them when they left Terra?
This is supposed to be a new exodus.

Quote:
Grouping them together is much like saying the entire IS is the same. It isn't.



However, at their core there really isn’t much difference … the idea of the Ubermensch (the Superhuman) …. Being trueborn and being indoctrinated that they are superior to that of the free-born? Or has the idea of equality for all spread to the some of the clans - can we expect a Freeborn Khan anytime soon?

In addition to this do see any change in the underlining principle that might makes right – circle of equals, trial of position (rank), trial of grievance etc….. so that being the better warrior makes to right no matter what!

No, at their heart they are bigoted genetic supremacists who believe their ability to fight makes them better (and correct in their actions) than everyone else ….

Or is there such a thing as a True-born warrior pacifist who believes it is better to protect people and help people (from any culture, birth genetic materials etc.) …..

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The thing with the prize for Terra, it was agreed it would make the first clan the Ilclan forever.



This is why you have a Trial of Absorption …. Take them, take their title … just because you have the title il-Clan does not mean you are free of all the Clan’s rules and cultural practices!

What it does is put an even bigger target on your back!

Quote:
Not sure how long an agreement like that is, but to suggest only 4 could become such, would not sit well with the other clans. Even if they were weak, they would not just sit back and allow this to happen. If nothing else, they would be using the invasion as a cover for hitting them with trials of possession, if there wasn't an agreement to prevent that. And even then, I doubt it would stop it entirely.



…. and then we are expected to accept the idea that once the Falcons and the Wolves practically decimate each other Trials of absorption are not allowed as well as the Harvest Trials practically allow these two Clans to rebuild stronger than before ….… so that they may still proceed to become the first il-Clan.

What a complete load of ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/02/20 12:12 PM
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It said that the warriors tell the merchant caste what they want, and the merchants get them. Not sure where, but I want to say it was in the original clan books that focused on each invading clan. As I only have Falcon and Wolf, I believe it is in the Falcon one. I will have to check.

There were a few characters in the novels that was not as arrogant as the other warriors, but pacifist isn't the word. There were also a few that were more willing to prevent losses of the non warrior caste, and the wardens concept of protect the IS, but nothing that would really approach a humanitarian.

I suspect the invasion was not to remove the barbarians of the IS so much, but to show the other clans just who had the 'best' warriors, without starting a major session of trials, especially of possession. The more fights around factories, the most likely they will become damaged or even destroyed. Except for Clan Wolf, the others all fought it out, and had to rebuild. Which makes me wonder. How long did it take to rebuild, and where did they get the pilots? Normally you don't get moved up from the PGCs.
Did they have a mini harvest war before moving out to the IS?
Requiem
02/02/20 04:25 PM
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Sarna.net wiki Clan Caste System
“The merchant caste's role in a Clan is the acquisition or manufacturing of all materials and goods necessary for their Clan's survival; within the merchant caste is a wide variety of occupations, including artisans, machinists, and free-traders …...Despite this and the essential role that the merchants play in their Clan's affairs, the warrior caste in most Clans treats the merchants with disdain and suspicion, or even outright hostility”.

Acquisition of materials … understandable;
Manufacturing of materials … requires additional information – what specialist manufacturing and into what and for whom?

Characteristics of a Clan Warrior
The characters within a novel must be tempered down lest they risk censure by the wider community when you know who their primary demographic are.

Operation Revival

Hidden Hope Doctrine ….“We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters”

Nicholas …. viewing it as a literal order to be followed, bordering on a divine revelation from his father.

The wardens – “saw the promise of return as an ideal to inspire the Clans to greatness rather than a literal command, that the Kerenskys meant the Clans to develop free of Inner Sphere ways while remaining ready to defend their lost home against any outside threat.”

The Crusaders – “took a literal view of the Hidden Hope, as a direct order to raise a new Star League from the ashes of Inner Sphere civilization with them at its head.”

With the invasion it is obvious the Crusader philosophy has won the argument with the aim of establishing a new Star League – their version of what a star league should be a Clan society.

This is where the Canon history really loses the plot and forgets the people behind the scenes as all they can think about is war and robots Vs. robots ….. the TRUE “twilight of the Clans” story arc is something far more important … a more meaningful story arc that espouses the reasons people go to war … not for power … but to ensure the freedoms we all hold dear to our hearts ….

This is where the role of the archivist and archaeologist would have been invaluable to the IS – if the Clans want a return to the Star League first they must understand what that means …. Collect all the documents from that era as well as all the remaining video files and give it to them via their merchant caste. What they will find is that the society they have created for them is a bastardization of everything the Star League stood for …. Even though the Star League was deeply flawed system (that was bound to destroy itself – self promoting prophecy).

The High Council – little more than a council meeting … and over time many backroom deals were forged.
Titles of Nobility – originally served as job titles (…to prevent the kind of Class stratification found in some of the realms) – however over time they became hereditary and rather than preventing Class stratification they formalized it for all time.
Nearly all of Bureaus of the Star League Affairs were established with the best of intentions however over time they all fell over due to their inbuilt flaws.

However, the Star league is also known for ….
its laws (siding with the rights of a planet’s people over the wishes of its leaders) – rather than using force diplomacy was the first action rather than undertaking military operations;
its art – freedom of expression;
its education policies (maintaining a first rate education system and providing free information to anyone with access to a computer or library;
its aim – promote peace and understanding between states and people – amicable trade relations between worlds and states;

People were free, well educated, with a high availability to medical and legal assistance.

So when comparing a Star League Citizen to that of a Clan Citizen the disparity between the two is stark.

Question: What would happen if the Clan Non-Warrior castes came know exactly what freedoms / advantages they had if they lived under the Star League in comparison to what was imposed upon them by both Alexander and Nicholas Kerensky’s Clans and his Warrior Caste ….?
The Perversion of the Star League ideals would be evident to even the least educated ….
How bitter the people would become, they were lied to by the warriors, the Clan system is clearly the polar opposite of what the Star League truly represented …
So what are they going to do … live under the tyranny of the Warrior Caste or are they going to return to the true values of the Star League … (Civil War!)

And how can this be done … every state should have their own repository of information / videos etc as a start …

However there is also “The Department (of education) also ran Prometheus Inc., a government-owned subsidy responsible for publishing books and managing almost a thousand libraries across the Star League. Putting out material designed to promote peace and understanding, Prometheus Inc. also ran a massive information database, accessible by anyone within their libraries or through a personal computer, which was located on Terra.”

Could there still be one (or more) of these libraries hidden within the IS? …. Could it be found by your unit? …. Could it then be returned to your House (Lyran for example) who could then provide it to Clan Diamond Shark / Clan Nova Cat / Clan Ghost Bear ….

Could we not see a reformation within these Clans? And then a war would ensure for the heart and soul of the Clans (as well as the personal liberties and freedoms of their non-warrior castes).


As for canon questions asked ….

Quote:
How long did it take to rebuild, and where did they get the pilots?



In reality you would assume a couple of years after acquisition – however to complete this task it will require bringing in laborers etc from Clan Space to get the job done correctly.

A point that was missed within all books ….

So utilizing IS workers – even longer.

But given TPTB fudging of the facts when it comes to the Clans – Overnight to bring it up to Clan Tech Standards.

Quote:
Did they have a mini harvest war before moving out to the IS?



No point, they didn’t need to – the Clans were debating the Invasion well before the Dragoons were sent to the IS – more than enough time to ramp up your True-born / Sibko training numbers so as to have an adequate Touman by the time they will invade the IS.

Plus at that stage the position of il-Clan would require a “pure” Clan to win it – only their genetics to prove they are the best Clan would do! Is the mentality they would be going through prior to the invasion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (02/02/20 04:30 PM)
ghostrider
02/02/20 06:59 PM
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Most wars boil down to one side or both are greedy. Freedom can be the goal, but it tends to be on my terms school of thought.

Maybe looking at what happened right after the decision to invade was made.
The clans fought trials of position to determine who would go in, and where in the invasion corridor they would be at. According to the books, the fighting was fierce.
With this type of fighting going on, there had to be a semi large number of losses in machines and warriors. It is stated, they had to pause the invasion for the winning clans to rebuild. I doubt the factories on the clans worlds pumped out 30 mechs a month, and the warriors to fill them is the question. Where did they come from? New sibkos? Old units being promoted? Making clones? It doesn't really say.
First response would probably be from established units. Which is possible as the clans, as they don't list the entire clan forces available to them. Just the ones that invaded. Not that many PGCs reported in the invasion numbers.
But this might have issues with those in the 'better' units. Someone getting a second chance to prove themselves, while those current in, and still living didn't need a second chance. So the 'new' warriors coming in would be considered lesser warriors. That may well have caused chaos among some of the more tradition bound warriors.

And it has been established that the power of plenty is corruptive in societies that don't have alot of luxuries.
Requiem
02/02/20 10:47 PM
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Quote:
According to the books, the fighting was fierce.



Yes I can agree with this statement.

Quote:
With this type of fighting going on, there had to be a semi large number of losses in machines and warriors.



Yes I can also agree with this statement.

Quote:
It is stated, they had to pause the invasion for the winning clans to rebuild.



and here is where the wheels fall of the rails ….

If the two statements above are correct then both sides have suffered greatly in the previous battles in men and material ….

Thus the Clans are now in a worse situation than that of the IS

Men – Theirs are a Sibko trained military – replacement numbers are small in comparison to the IS and it will take them over 6 moths travel time for a reinforcements to arrive from Clan Space – if even one reinforcement ship is intercepted the front line Clan units will be in trouble.

Material – a logistical chain spanning over 6 months as well as consumables – unless you have many large depos already set up to keep the front line advancing there is going to trouble down the line.

This is why attacking the Clans rear is so vital – Military Intelligence / Wolf meeting at Outreach should have pointed this out!

Also the FC had over 260 Regiments – so reinforcements from the FC should not be an issue ….

Whereas with the Clans they had best temper the exuberance of their new reinforcements or they will have their mech shot out from under them in no time flat!

Quote:
he power of plenty is corruptive in societies that don't have allot of luxuries.



True ….

Psi-ops would have fun with regard to this …. Especially when you can prove to the lower castes that they were lied to by their “betters” with regards to what the true Star League stands for.

So, for the Clan Invasion we now have …
• Front Line forces on both sides;
• Garrison Forces Vs. Commando / Partisan Forces – including objective raids – intelligence Ops. And POW extraction ;
• Fenrir Forces fighting in the Periphery / Deep Periphery against Clan Logistics fleets and sites – as well as Warships (if deemed to be achievable);
• Archeologists looking for missing libraries …. Assigned by military intelligence / psi-ops for their future war plans …
• Big Wing Aerospace forces engaging Clan’s Warships;
• Looking to find Clan Diamond Shark – to relay information for the IS …
• Dark Nebula / Wolcott (and others)– holding Force and rear echelon fighting …

Missed any?

An envelopment strategy (The Battle of Cannae – large scale)? Sending a second army into the Clans rear – cutting off their logistics - opening a second front?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/02/20 11:07 PM
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Point that needs to be reminded. It wasn't two sides, but all the clans except Wolf fighting for a position in the invasion. So it wasn't a battle or two.

To be honest, there is a few more things that needed to be done. The development of the IS warships (Non Comstar) should have been done sooner, and included in the refusal strike on Huntress, if not sooner.
Trying to take warships from the clans or even jumpships, for data on their way into the IS. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how to get to the clans homeworlds with just their coordinates.
Along with this, the ships should also have the location of supply bases that could be hit with IFF codes from those very ships, allowing for even more surprise advantage. After a couple of hits on their supply lines, they would reinforce them with troops. Granted, where they get them from is questionable, without tapping into the reserve clan. Which would embarrass both the Jaguars and Falcons.
I would think those two might swallow some pride and allow a couple more clans to become involved, if for no other reason then garrison certain worlds as they push forward. Even supply routes would be 'perfect' for the additional clans to deal with.

Wolcott had it's own issues once the DC retained that world. Getting to and from the jump point. Which shows the issues with detection. The Black Rose group had seen the only way the clans figured out where they came in at, was chasing another set of dropships to the jumpship. There wasn't anything like the forces detected it, and with clan tech being so superior, would have been able to figure out pirate points for different days. Something that is over looked, as a simple satilite could cover those areas, and just signal something came it.

It might be a second front, for a while. The clans in the IS would have to turn back to deal with strikes on their lines, if those strikes could disrupt to completely blocking communications to the home world or incoming reinforcements. Double Entrenchment, I believe the term is. Once the clans started losing supplies, how long could they hold the worlds they got? Not sure. We know some tech is ONLY made in clan space. It is frustrating that the game doesn't say outright if things like IS endosteel or Ferrous armor is compatible with Clan made stuff. It would be kind of stupid if it did. Different critical spaces taken up by both.
For some models, even the use of IS double sinks wouldn't work. Not enough crits left in the units to do so. Same thing could be said about XL engines, but not as much.
Requiem
02/03/20 02:24 AM
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I am describing the war within the IS Invasion Corridor, not the trials that got them there!

Quote:
The development of the IS warships (Non Comstar) should have been done sooner



Correct – the absence of warships leaves but one course of action – Atomic.

Quote:
It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how to get to the clans homeworlds with just their coordinates.



That is unless you purge your navi computer record of every bit of information every time you reach a certain Jump point, such as every Mobile HPG station that connects the IS with the Clan Home Worlds.
<Note: I would assume that if a HPG station is in danger of being captured there would be a dead man switch – to kill the station>

Quote:
ships should also have the location of supply bases that could be hit with IFF codes from those very ships, allowing for even more surprise advantage.



A limited number of bases for their individual clan as well as the main Logistics station – yes – but I doubt they would have all of them – and again in the event of capture the navi computer and all backup data will be wiped clean. So unless you can take it without anyone being aware you are even there I doubt you will find any relevant information.

Standard Protection upon all ships.

Quote:
After a couple of hits on their supply lines, they would reinforce them with troops.



Warships would be more probable.

Quote:
I would think those two might swallow some pride and allow a couple more clans to become involved, if for no other reason then garrison certain worlds as they push forward.



No, I believe the Clans would rather die than swallow their pride – if the problem has been Garrisons all along and the idea of PGC doesn’t work due to its size then this just leaves Clan Goliath Scorpion’s remedy (refer sarna.net wiki Clan Caste System) – The Garrison Caste as a possible solution.

Quote:
Even supply routes would be 'perfect' for the additional clans to deal with.



When you have a supply route that takes 6 months to reach you there will be problems – you need to predict what you need and in quantities – so how good are you at predicting what is required?

Point – The Clans believed they could just walk over any IS forces – so isn’t it reasonable to suggest they didn’t predict their supply parts for the first year (at a minimum) – and also their weapon’s consumables may have been under ordered!

So isn’t it reasonable to assume some of their units were “offline” during this period to allow for optimal use of resources that were still operational - as well as utilizing more energy weapon options.

Quote:
… Wolcott …



Yes I agree this was not thought through … but how many issues throughout the Clan Invasion was not thought out to the fullest.

Quote:
…. a second front ….



Having only one history with holes in it poses problems.

The idea of removing the clans supplies is an interesting hypothesis – and without information on the subject I am back to guessing what effect it may have and how serious it would be – how many resupply missions does each clan receive each year and when - how many ships must go missing and how long before it creates a severe impact upon the front line forces.

And yes I also agree it is frustrating with regards to utilizing Clan tech – However if Huntress had occurred correctly this would be a non issue – question: How many Commanding Officers (LA, CC and DC) who were sent to Huntress and returned with nothing to show (technology wise, when they had the opportunity to take a copy of the entire library) found themselves hanging by their ankles over a pit of snakes? My bet, all of them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/03/20 12:48 PM
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Interesting that atomics is the 'only' thing to counter warships. The first things suggested was the large aerofighter forces (without nukes). The lack of naval classed weapons is the issue. The missiles are nice, but limited in numbers that can be carried at one time. I really think that was done to avoid really challenging or destroying warships.

Even the location of one supply base would be enough to start getting into the network of them, for one clan. Hitting the base, might then give you an idea of where others are, and if you can hit them by surprise, mainly spec ops, you should be able to pull more data from them. And hitting isn't just going in, guns blazing. Simple stealth to gain the information, then take it with combat. One or more may well have things that would help indirectly. Schedules of when pick ups or drop offs will occur. Meaning taking out those jumpships and dropships, which may contain locations to other depots. It would not be hit one, and find the entire history and military positions of the entire clans.
It is also likely each clan knew a limited locations of other clans supply depots as well. To hit in the future, at least.

The issue with rather die is the key. You get weak enough, and the other clans will start hitting you with trials ending with absorbtions. That is probably the worst fate of a clan like the Falcons. To be remembered as nothing more then being beat by a lesser clan. You were talking about Marthe's solution. That isn't at all likely in the tradition bound clan.

Well the idea of the nations that had troops on Huntress brings up a very interesting set of questions.
As Comstar was part of those forces, they would have the tech expertise to take clan tech and make it without being so 'expensive'. As they did not, nor WOB did not, make use of it, there seems to be an issue. For both, building clan tech wouldn't be that big of a stretch.
Also. What happened to the Jaguars warships? They all didn't just explode once the Jaguars were beaten. Which clans got them? This would change some of the future battles in both the IS and the clans home worlds. From the sounds of it, they were forgotten. Setting up for a Jaguar comeback?
Requiem
02/03/20 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Interesting that atomics is the 'only' thing to counter warships. The first things suggested was the large aerofighter forces (without nukes).



Really? …. Please go back to the start of this discussion – Alt History Kurita’s response to Turtle Bay 01/29/2019 - …. plans for a ‘Kamikazie’ attacks upon clan warships / jumpships …. Given the targets conventional munitions would not be enough, the decision therefore is to use thermo-nuclear devices.

Quote:
limited in numbers that can be carried at one time. I really think that was done to avoid really challenging or destroying warships.



Nt. Larger fighters get 2 missiles - The anti-ship missile weighs 2 tons and takes 6 bomb slots
So if you use a vengeance carrier – 40 fighters – thus you could have a payload of 80 Nukes.

Quote:
Even the location of one supply base would be enough to start getting into the network of them, for one clan. Hitting the base, might then give you an idea of where others are, and if you can hit them by surprise, mainly spec ops, you should be able to pull more data from them.



So are my Fenrir forces now viable? – fighting the Clans within the Deep Periphery or is this just an IS Commando attack?

Quote:
You were talking about Marthe's solution. That isn't at all likely in the tradition bound clan.



The Marthe situation is the same as the CC situation – TPTB cannot bide the destruction of certain forces when they have been beaten down - in all reality Falcons and Wolves – absorption – CC – utter annihilation.

Not impressed!

Quote:
…. Task force Serpent ….



2nd Com Guard Division was Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht’s choice …..

The decision not to take Clan Tech back to the IS will haunt the IS for centuries to come … and is perhaps the most unrealistic plot ever put forward by TPTB.

The entire IS – ComStar included - was about to be technological level F – above that of even the Star League – so really it should not have been that hard for any of the IS Great Houses (and ComStar) to begin manufacturing Clan Tech especially when you could have transported entire factories back to the IS at the same time.

Lets call it what it is – it is TPTB restricting the IS access to Clan Tech and leveling the playing field, something they have never allowed and makes little to no sense.

Quote:
….Jaguar’s Warships ….



Refer sarna.net wiki - Clan Smoke Jaguar Touman
Obsidian – Destroyed - Mongoose
Veiled Huntress – DC captured – so heavily damaged – scuttled (DC)
Streaking Mist – SLDF isorla kept in orbit above Huntress – stolen by former Clan Smoke Jaguar’s
Unnamed Sovetskii Soyuz – Unkown
Korat – Destoyed by SLDF in Huntress system.
Osis’ Pride - acting as a mobile citadel for the surviving Smoke Jaguar warriors to venture out of as they raided Periphery worlds.
Queen Lynx - transported to the Terada yard at Dieron to be mothballed. (weapons removed?) (DC)
Lioness - transported to the Terada yard at Dieron to be mothballed. (weapons removed?) (DC)
Snow Leopard - crippled and not destroyed during the Battle of Luzerne. Assumed scuttled by the DC.
Firecrest - to the Terada yard at Dieron to be mothballed. (weapons removed?) however never arrived / fate unknown (DC?)
Hunter’s Pride – damaged during the raid on Luzerne in 3055 – fate unknown - may not be the Clan Jade Falcon WarShip of the same name,
Unknown Congress Class – Unknown
Griffin - destroyed around Matamoras
Storm Cat – destroyed
Sabre Cat - captured by the Draconis Combine, the Sabre Cat entered service with the Draconis Combine Admiralty (DC)
Dark Claw - recovered by the Draconis Combine mothballed over Dieron (DC)
The Iowa – information suggesting that it was destroyed between 3059 and 3060.
Unnamed Whirlwind Class – Unknown
Ripper - didn't survive the battle at Huntress.
Azov - destroyed at Huntress.
Simas Osis - reported destroyed in combat at Huntress
Unnamed Vincent Class – Unknown
Unnamed Vincent Class – Unknown
Hell Fury - Clan Cloud Cobra captured it from Clan Smoke Jaguar in 3053.
Unnamed Fredasa Class – Unknown
Unnamed Fredasa Class – Unknown

So 7 to the DC and 7 unknown.

Question, if technically the SLDF captured these ships then why did the DC get them?

The DC get a clan removed from their territory as well as all their captured warships as well – what a great deal for them – and what a load of BS for the other members of the SLDF.

However what is really worrying is the missing seven warships – who has them? / what was their fate? Also of interest is the fact that two vessels were taken by former Jaguar Warriors?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (02/03/20 06:48 PM)
ghostrider
02/03/20 11:34 PM
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There is a difference between a large scale sweep of the Periphery, and a few surgical strikes. Outside of the alt, the game keeps the numbers of ships limited.
For the alt, it should get away from canon, as it changes so much, there is nothing in common with it, other then names.

But I do have a question for you about the nukes.
Why limit the amount that can be carried, as you have changes the damage it does?
One nuke should wipe out a warship according to the way you make them sound.
Also, even a 50 ton fighter should be able to carry several bombs. Make it a bomber, not a fighter that is carrying bombs. Probably get 10 or more on it.

There is also an issue with clan tech being brought back to the IS.
First would be any equipment salvaged. Unless they are talking schematics.
Second off, the IS already has that tech. There are more then a few units running clan omnis. So the only thing the Huntress load would do, is give them a head start on reverse engineering the items. Maybe even removing the need to research it. So that whole bs line is completely busted.
Look at the ship list. The DC got 7 ships worth of clan tech. So they didn't even stay consistent with that.
Enough repair manuals would allow for quicker results to build the actual tech.
Did they purge everything off the ships? That would mean the ships couldn't move. Clan naval weapons are a good score in my opinion.
Requiem
02/04/20 02:13 AM
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Quote:
There is a difference between a large scale sweep of the Periphery, and a few surgical strikes.



Correct …. This is where gathering accurate and reliable information comes in so that can be analyzed to produce viable results …

Quote:
For the alt, it should get away from canon, as it changes so much, there is nothing in common with it, other then names.



Why? Improvements can be minor or major …. As stated previously, we are the dreamers and we have control over the dream … individuality should be allowed free reign.

Quote:
Why limit the amount that can be carried, as you have changes the damage it does?



80 is limiting the amount that can be carried?

Every warship will need a screening force to protect it in the future …. You thus need a minimum of one fighter to be able to break away and make a successful solo run against it ….

As for the damage …. I am just returning it to its correct lethality, the games version is little better than HE in comparison!

If you convert a fighter into a bomber and a missile into bomb how does this work in the vacuum of space - also when it explodes how will your fighter be out of range when the explosion travels at the speed of light!

Quote:
One nuke should wipe out a warship according to the way you make them sound.



Question – please explain how a warship survives a nuclear explosion (50Mt) who’s temperature reaches the interior of the sun about 100,000,000 Degrees Celsius and can be represented by a cube of 312 meters (1023 feet) on a side (approximately the height of the Eiffel Tower). - and remember, this doesn’t include the other radiation effects.

I would really like to know how this works …. As if a warship can take this amount of damage please explain how a Naval PPC can do little more than scratch the paint.

Quote:
There is also an issue with clan tech being brought back to the IS.



Everything that can be stuffed into a drop-ship will be stuffed into a drop-ship …. Entire factories (their equipment), schematics, and people ….

There may be a few units than are running Clans Omnis – so?
Where does this come into it when you can make as many as you want for your entire military?
Then just reverse engineer (research) the factory to produce multiple factories ….
So, quicker and more efficient use available technology …

Quote:
Did they purge everything off the ships? That would mean the ships couldn't move. Clan naval weapons are a good score in my opinion.



Why? Are you attempting to transfer them from a smaller class vessel to a larger class vessel? Right now they work – transferring them, who knows if they will ever work again …. Right now the vessel only needs a crew and you can put it on the front line …. Taking one of the weapons out you would have to scuttle the ship …. Plus is there anything in the rules that allow you do this? Or is this another TPTB fiat?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/04/20 11:37 AM
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First off, you have been calling the nukes bombs for most of the thread, so calling it out now is a bit pointless.
Second off, a bomber, like the B1B carries cruise missiles as well as nukes in today's world. Why would you need to use bombs in space? Simply add in more missile rack type of equipment for a 'bomber'.
Third off the explosion doesn't travel at the speed of light. It does move quickly, but not that fast.

Again. The game does not follow logic all the time. Since changing the damage done in the game, you change more then just that.
And you are in space. Deep space for the most part. It would be entirely stupid not to have some sort of radiation shielding on the sections people live and work in. Initially, the cockpit of a mech was to prevent radiation from a cracked fusion reactor from killing the pilot. They changed the fusion engine, but the cockpit remains the same. They do fight on and around radiation sources, so why a mech and not a space craft?

Read the context of sentences. Did they purge the ships was referring to the warships the DC got. That means the DC GOT CLAN TECH ON THE WARSHIPS. This alone gives them a head start on dealing with naval weapons, fire control, ecm and other things from warships. So the idea of not bringing back clan tech is violated with this one fact.

Sorry. It's the B2 bomber that carries the big missiles. I mistakenly says B1B.


Edited by ghostrider (02/04/20 01:39 PM)
Requiem
02/04/20 04:46 PM
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Quote:
And you are in space. Deep space for the most part. It would be entirely stupid not to have some sort of radiation shielding on the sections people live and work in.



Question – what happens to radiation shielding when exposed to a temperature reaching the interior of the sun, about 100,000,000 Degrees Celsius?

Quote:
Third off the explosion doesn't travel at the speed of light. It does move quickly, but not that fast.



When the blast wave is created, it travels at a speed around 300Km/s, which is 100 times faster than the speed of sound.

About 5% of the energy released in a nuclear burst forms ionizing radiation: neutrons, gamma rays, alpha particles and electrons moving at speeds up to the speed of light.

If the fighter is close to this when it explodes then it to will be gone!

So what happens to a ship when you put a 300m x 300m x 300m hole in it with a 50Kt warhead?

Quote:
So the idea of not bringing back clan tech is violated with this one fact.



Please read where they got the ships – Operation Bulldog.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/04/20 07:33 PM
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Do you really need to suggest radiation would be a factor in that scenario? Nothing would survive the explosion. Which is why I hate a lot of games saying nukes are the worse of all weapons that can be used. Beginning weapons for the most part.

So you are suggesting that an explosion can propel matter faster then the speed of light? Something in this figure isn't correct.

And I thought all your fighters were Kamikaze. Why would it matter if they were caught in the explosion. And with this, why not go with bombs, as you crash the fighter into the ship. You don't need fuel or targeting and tracking items either. More room for the boom.
Requiem
02/04/20 09:58 PM
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Yes, I agree, the game should never have allowed Nukes in the game … that said, unless they allow the IS to have their own Warships, prior to the Invasion, the only weapon they have when Warships have been used (Twice) is the Nuke.

Quote:
propel matter faster than the speed of light



A nuclear burst forms ionizing radiation: neutrons, gamma rays, alpha particles and electrons moving at speeds up to the speed of light.

Quote:
And I thought all your fighters were Kamikaze.



Kamikaze = DC Samurai (as per WW2)!

Missiles = FC

Quote:
More room for the boom.



50-150 Kt warhead dimensions – 31.4 inches (80 cm) by 11.8 inches (30 cm)

So, not that much room required.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
02/05/20 02:07 AM
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Radiation is not the same as the physical force of an explosion, which is what it sounded like when saying the explosion moves faster then light.

Why would suicide fighters only be for the DC, and with that, why would you want to waste your units, when they can do the job without dying? During WWII U.S. planes rammed their disabled fighters into the Japanese ships. This should not be the only tactic in a fight. Do what you can, and escape, unless damaged so badly, you won't make it back. Otherwise, you lose your soldiers for not good reason. And a full vengeance with all pilots doing the suicide run means 40 fighters gone as they would all be in the explosion radius, unless destroyed before getting there. Not a good use of your pilots or equipment.

The size of a missile warhead does not cause as much boom as a bomb does.
Hell just put a cockpit with some sensors on a frame and become a guided missile, if you really want to use suicide units. I can guarantee once you do, your soldiers will start deserting your command.
Requiem
02/05/20 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Radiation is not the same as the physical force of an explosion, which is what it sounded like when saying the explosion moves faster than light.



Question:- what happens to an inorganic aero-space fighter and an organic pilot when they are exposed to a lethal dose or radiation? <when they were unable to outrun the explosion radiation wave>

Quote:
Why would suicide fighters only be for the DC



Do you see any Samurai within the F-C?

Quote:
During WWII U.S. planes rammed their disabled fighters into the Japanese ships



Proof please.

Quote:
And a full vengeance with all pilots doing the suicide run means 40 fighters gone as they would all be in the explosion radius, unless destroyed before getting there. Not a good use of your pilots or equipment.



Yes, logically this does not make sense from a Western perspective.

Please read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

However, when you are discussing older equipment and older pilots who are willing to die for their Coordinator to ensure victory.

Quote:
The size of a missile warhead does not cause as much boom as a bomb does.



This is dependent upon the warheads explosive.

Quote:
Hell just put a cockpit with some sensors on a frame and become a guided missile, if you really want to use suicide units.



What is the radius of a ship based E.C.M. suite?

Quote:
I can guarantee once you do, your soldiers will start deserting your command.



They are volunteers. (please read the above wiki – Kamikaze)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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