Requiem
04/10/19 04:00 AM
1.158.130.13
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Question: Post First Succession war all houses are experiencing a decline in technology – would not all Houses establish both civilian and military units to preserve what is left as well as implement a recovery mission of any lostech technology that is buried within the ruins of the old?
Consider them to be a pre-curser to Snord’s Irregulars – but on a much larger and more organised scale?
We know the DC established a civilian organisation for that exact purpose – so why not a military unit with the same remit?
Thus for an Alt. Universe game – The year is 2837, Archon Marcus decided to take advantage of House Marik’s plight by establishing an offensive against the Marik worlds of Oliver and Graham IV.
Though the initial invasion timetable was interrupted when the Draconis Combine once again attacked Hesperus II. The green defenders were able to route the attacking Kurita forces after only two weeks of intense fighting leaving the way open for Marcus’ original attack force to commence their operations upon the Free Wolds League once more.
Attacking Lyran Units….
32nd Lyran Guards (Originally upon Solaris); and
1st Lyran Paragons (The Reclaimers)
Unit Briefing:-
Graham IV – Applicable Information.
Currently…..
Graham IV still retains a small mining presence on the world that is focused upon the few resources and ores that could be safely removed. Unfortunately most of the planet is radioactive and as such most of their population lives within two massive space habitats orbiting Graham IV
Prior to the Amaris Civil War….
A SLDF Space Defence Sysyem;
Two shipyard which were both destroyed during the First Succession War;
Five Castle Brians were built upon the planet;
Three of the Five Survived the Amaris Civil War and the remaining two Castles Brian - Fort Baldwin, located near the planetary capital, DeKirk City, and Fort Ball were defeated with the use of repeated nuclear strikes;
Dekirk City was also leveled by one large nuclear weapon. The destruction of the city also revealed a secret aerospace R&D facility built beneath the planet’s capital, the Icarus Research Centre, which caused the facility to collapse turning the entire area into one large radioactive sinkhole;
The widespread nuclear bombardment leveled most of the planet’s surface and apparently destroyed the planet’s multiple manufacturing complexes;
Manufacturing complexes upon Graham IV prior to the Amaris Civil War included….
First, Mitchell Vehicles; and
Who manufactured…
Battlemechs …. MCY-97 and 98 Mercury; GLH-2D Galahad; HEP-2H Helepolis; SHG-2H and 2F Shogun
Vehicles …. Kanga
AeroSpace Fighter …. HCT-213 and 213B and HCT-213BC Hellcat and Hellcat II
Dropship … Colossus
WarShips … Luxor-Class Heavy Cruser and Essex-class Destroyer
Secondly, DeKirk Aerospace.
Who manufactured
Warship …. Congress-Class frigate
Possible Defending Military – Unknown – Assume Regimental Military Unit.
Lyran Commonwealth Aims – Graham IV is to be brought under the Lyran Commonwealth dominion – Thus planetary conquest followed by space and planetary archaeology survey
32nd Lyran Guards
Primary Targets….
The two massive space habitats orbiting Graham IV are to be acquired by marines prior to planetary insertion.
Planetary spaceport is to be acquired.
Planetary defending force is to neutralised or driven from Graham IV.
Alternate Target …
The 32nd Lyran Guards are to hold until the 1st Lyran Paragons have completed their survey to the satisfaction of their Commanding Officer In the event they consider the situation to be tactically unviable over the long term.
1st Lyran Paragons …. To investigate the following ruins (radiation permitting)
Primary Targets ….
Manufacturing complexes for Mitchell Vehicles; and
Icarus Research Centre located below Dekirk City
Alternate Target ….
The two shipyards that were destroyed during the First Succession War
All five Castle Brians that were built upon the planet.
Thoughts about my alt. universe unit / game?
So what would happen if any of the lostech was found – what would you want? – so, what’s next?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/10/19 06:32 AM
1.158.130.13
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The main reason why I thought such a unit might be valuable is that of both the Technical Readout for 2750 and also Succession Wars.
I want my mercenary unit circa 3025 to be able to have ‘Mechs from both of these two books. (just remove all the advanced weapons and electronics)
How many others out there would also like this proposition?
plus I believe this would make for a great ongoing adventure ... and the research would be fun also as you target a world along the border (or even a deep raid being and hidden to all others whilst you conduct your dig!) .... then attack!!!!
Fun, Fun, Fun!!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/10/19 06:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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There should be mechs from 2750 and earlier in Cache's and such. Might need a refit, as some things like endo steel would not be available to fix any issues.
And such caches should contain information that had to be left behind, especially those 'secret' research labs that seem to be pretty common in the IS. Maybe the prototype or alternative research on a better gauss rifle, or maybe more efficient ER mods for the lasers.
If you really wanted to change a few things, the initial research into lighter missile launcher that were say 3/4ths the weight.
Even some new research into making the League weapons better. ERPPC that only builds 14 heat, instead of 15.
One point that should be made here, is the League and clans targeting systems are not better then the 3025 era units. Why?
They were supposed to be superior. Special things like targeting comps, but it should be in the main units, not an add on.
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Requiem
04/10/19 07:52 PM
1.158.130.13
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Good points,
Hopefully many others may adopt this strategy to bring back many ‘Mech designs that they once thought was lost forever. And even bring back manufacturing some of the designs.
So, they find the plans and ten years latter, Hesperus II is manufacturing the Mercury – the Lyrans needed a good light ‘Mech.
It could even return advanced weapon systems earlier than originally thought of, so that when the Clans returns the IS may have warships also – thus they are more on par when it comes to the invasion.
Thus the scale of wars between the IS and the Clans may increase – it would also fix the Turtle Bay incident – the DCMS could send in their own warship against the Jaguar warship rather than ignoring any act of revenge.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/11/19 07:03 AM
1.158.130.13
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These units could also be used to re-examine old maps and the worlds that are no longer colonized for their strategic usefulness – due an ever changing border.
So, consider looking into lost maps and their subsequent lost planets contained there in
For example, between Vantaa and Ridderkerk (near Twycross) is the world of Kreller –A hidden base of operations for clandestine operations during the Clan Invasion could have been considered and as yet no one looked through their old Maps - and the Clans didn't go in for hiding their forces upon depopulated worlds - and they should have them upon their current maps as theirs are from the end of the Star League!
I just wonder how many other worlds are out there that are lost to all except for those that go hunting for them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
04/11/19 07:27 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Question: Post First Succession war all houses are experiencing a decline in technology – would not all Houses establish both civilian and military units to preserve what is left as well as implement a recovery mission of any lostech technology that is buried within the ruins of the old?
ComStar did run operations to hunt down and collect/destroy old Star League facilities.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
04/11/19 08:22 PM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE “ComStar did run operations to hunt down and collect/destroy old Star League facilities”
How? Really, this is one of the largest plot holes in the game – upon every world – every university – every school – every home (school text books regarding science, technology, mathematics etc) – How many companies that were never attacked – like the Lyran world of Alarion – Port Sydney Shipyards - You can assume they have their own educational departments to ensure the workers work to a level that is required by their KPIs. So how did these just disappear one day with everyone not knowing how to do their job one day?
There is also training where you have a master craftsman teaching his apprentice – as from year dot to consider, so how did the IS loose everyone from every field to loose this information!
So how do you remove all the information from all of the worlds?
Plus, how many governments would have established bunkers full of technology – art work – historical documents et al in the event of nuclear attack during the First Succession War!
Sorry, but I cannot see how this blanket statement could ever be considered to be factual as it is just not believable.
so there must be a level of technology that even ComStar cannot remove from the IS.
As for hunting for information contained within the rubble - how did they do this - someone would have noticed - the government would never allow ComStar (or anyone) to go poking through the rubble, and again how could they do it upon every world - there are also lost worlds that are heavily radiated and poisoned with WMDs that make any form of a detailed investigation very difficult.
Plus some worlds remain important - how do you conduct an illegal excavation of a former Star league Facility under the eyes of the security forces of every Great House and get away with it every time!
Plus there is also human error - they could have assumed that with the city above the nuke destroyed everything and they never investigated - so when a group does conduct an investigation they could come up with something.
sorry but in my opinion they may be able to gain access to some but not all.
Thus ComStar will need to create other "white" groups (Military Units with 'Mechs?) to stop all the exploration groups from all the houses at the same time or send their agents to sabotage any finds - but sooner or later someone is going to get caught - and when that day occurs ComStar will have a lot of explaining to do (and this needs to be taken into consideration).
In my opinion a level of technology can be returned to the Inner Sphere if units like this begin hunting - plus it would be fun to run - and it would provide units with former lost 'Mechs.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/11/19 09:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not thinking sneaky enough.
Simply removing the information wouldn't do it. But replacing it was faulty information would go further to destroy anyone trying that out again.
This is not saying removing it wouldn't work at all.
Any transmission that comstar could access, could well distort or add a virus to make sure information was wrong, or incomplete.
As the first war rages, there would be alot of issues keeping information valid and up to date. Some worlds may well be destroyed beyond help at that time, so were 'forgotten'. Even those in the government could well remove that information, and kept it safe for only a small few to see.
And when they die without telling anyone, it becomes like lostech.
Comstar working to remove vital information from the data banks of all houses is a part of it. If you really want to deal with anyone looking for it, a simple upgrade of navigation information that has the wrong jump co-ords for a system could well make anyone else think the system is dead, or something doesn't allow ships to return. Not even needing to use military force to destroy them. Simply move it too close to the main star would suffice.
But as said before, there would be information in older systems that might have been pulled off line during the Amaris war. With all the caches found, comstar did not have anywhere close to a full record of what was out there. Camelot Command is a good example here. Losing a war ship production facility that was not destroyed shows something went wrong, maybe even corrupting Comstars files.
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Requiem
04/12/19 12:17 AM
1.158.130.13
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The biggest problem is saying all the information from every world concerning one specific topic no longer exists … the huge scale to achieve this is incredibly complicated and the amount of people involved would have to be in the tens of thousands.
You would have to go to every world – investigate all probable and actual sites – complete a thorough investigation including a dig – and remove / destroy everything.
There is no way this can be done.
Let us consider some of the prime candidates ComStar would have to have access to and all without anyone noticing
All major Universities upon not only Capitol Worlds but also any other major world;
All Military Academies throughout the IS – they should have examples of every weapon / military electronic device – thus you should be able to re-engineer from their held information alone!
All major corporations – as they have their own educational departments;
And remember the Academies and the Corporations would have their own security teams – so bypassing them is not really that believable!
Let us consider the Rim World Republic – in all the confusion of Kerensky’s forces attacking Amaris home how much was lost? And how much could be found in the future if a team went out there and investigated.
Yes, you could have a ComStar team attempting to destroy some of the finds – but they must be aware if they are caught then it is game over for ComStar – so we are discussing very high risks for ComStar – thus I could postulate that they would only attempt an intervention when and if something very major was found – as for a new Battlemech design this would not qualify as a new weapon would mean one state would be able to kill off another quicker – and is this not the overall aim of ComStar – all houses kill each other off – ComStar rides out and re-established the Star League under a Blakeian Theocracy!
No, the overarching premise that all technology / understanding concerning a specific topic was destroyed utterly throughout a universe with how many hundreds of worlds is a complete and utter fantasy and should be treated as such.
It is just a question of finding the information and returning it to an educational body who could them disseminate it …..
And in all reality this is where the ComStar agent would be …. In a position to hide what he/she can …. or replace where possible ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
04/18/19 09:15 PM
50.53.22.4
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An example of ComStar's methods for acquiring/concealing Tech appears in the novel _The Price Of Glory_.
As to "groups existing to preserve Tech" -- [looks upward; whistles innocently]
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Karagin
04/18/19 09:56 PM
72.176.171.47
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Or the ComStar raid on the NAIS HQ on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War...another stellar example of their "preserving technology" or more like their preserving their monopoly on technology. I am surprised that they allowed the Wolfhound to even be built...or the Hatchetman.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/18/19 11:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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How many of the houses had tech levels equal to the League when it fell?
As it was suggested, the houses did NOT have that level of tech, nor did they have solid information of where to find it. So a chunk of tech was never known to the houses to begin with.
Now with the 1st war being so damaging, how many of those areas that houses built were destroyed by nukes?
Or raids? It wouldn't be difficult for Comstar to hit repositories and such, and frame someone else. They did have control of the coms for the IS. Simply deleting, or adding to some reports, then making sure those issuing it did not survive to get back home.
Viruses and such consistently loaded in reports and such would eventually do their work. Uploading directly to some data banks would spread the false or modified information, removing that from use.
One thing that has to be added here. This was not done in a 6 month, to 2 year cycle. This was done by the League and then Comstar. Yes. The League would have had their own counterspies doing such a thing to protect the Leagues systems.
Then you have the issues of if you trust someone from say the CC when you work in the DC. Do you think they are misleading you? Check the coords, and find it is deep space or a world so radiated, it glows all night long?
One thing that might have allowed the Wolfhound to be built was comstar was not supposed to side with any nation, until the 4th war. They were, but the first circuit only started overtly showing it when the FC was going to gobble up the CC. And it was only because of this, the first circuit was 'forced' to deal with it. The Wolfhound was pretty well done at that point. Same with the Hatchetman. The Axeman might be one that would come to mind, as well as any back doors in the programs running all of those mechs. But that could be said of all mechs produced in since the first war. Simply having parts of a virus in several programs that would only activate when you ran several different programs together. Such as engine monitoring, with tracking and then use the coms.
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Karagin
04/18/19 11:47 PM
72.176.171.47
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Thing is we don't know fully what the houses had or didn't, recall, that over 90% of the information we have about the houses are from ComStar sources as in-universe books like original Housebook or the TROs etc...then the next level are the intell reports for things like the 20 Year Update, so our Point of View is not a clear one. Even the novels muddy the water since each author writes from their characters point of view and that too is bias and skewed.
Prime example, the raid by the Dragoons on Huff in Wolves on the Border, they attack a facility that is working on double heat sinks, only to find out that there was much more that was truly being worked on.
ComStar and the WoB had a vested interest to NOT let anyone get to advanced, and thus they would do all they could to prevent things from moving forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/19/19 10:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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I agree with advancements being worked against. The wolfhounds only real 'progress' was the full head ejection system. Otherwise, it was just putting in parts in a different configuration. Nothing new.
Which does bring up another question. The original Star League had the tech in 2750 TRO, but was the house tech equal to that? Or was it more of the older versions of it? More weight. More crits. Less effective. Those sort of things comes to mind.
Now for comstar screwing with people, the Goliaths found just as the 4th war started up, is something that should fall under the houses not finding such things.
Overall, the one nagging question that comes to mind is just how many storehouses did the League have around the IS? If you think about it, they seemed to have more in storage then was being used. 300 plus years later, and they are still being found.
Someone said comstar would not be able to do digs on house worlds without someone knowing it, yet the League was able to BUILD on worlds without the houses knowing about it.
Those buildings and warehouses should have been the first things the warring houses went to take. Comstar did have some ways that they could have done so, though it would be a stretch to have multiple worlds suffer from a nuke leak in areas, IE drop some from a passing ship to clear out an area. Even looking for a new com station comes to mind.
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Karagin
04/19/19 11:32 PM
72.176.171.47
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Okay so there were store houses, cool, but let's be real, stuff dry rots, seals break, components age, wear and tear happens to things even sitting in mothball.
Okay a SL team or company building on a world...hey company A is going to build this mega project for Planet R, so while they are doing that they just happen to build a hidden storage site. Not hard to guess on that.
Or they bribe the locals to ignore the happens and then if anything leaks, they are like uhmm, we are building solar power stations and that is what is shown built. Rumors are easy to start and easy to keep alive.
The house tech folks like NAIS and others would have the information on the older tech, and they would have figured out how to make a version of it, but is the cost worth it? The Inner Sphere can make Clan spec weapons but the cost in money and materials is not something the House rulers are willing to pay for.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/20/19 07:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Dragoons and Snord's unit were looking for league caches when they first got into the IS.
Some were already looted, while others weren't.
What did they find?
Where did it go?
Not really a huge deal, but it shows the logic failures. I will grant some leeway, as I don't think the initial release believed it would get that far. But I am probably wrong on this.
Now the novels and adventure packs screw up the perception of a cache find. I don't remember seeing much about having to fix the units they find. Some were jump in and use them to defend the unit immediately.
And even if you did take time to fix it, how much of the equipment at that time actually fit into the league mechs? Some that were not used in over 300 years?
To make all the clan stuff might be too expensive to do at once, but after a few years, the costs would drop. Unless the materials are that rare. Then the clans shouldn't be able to make them. Magically finding a world rich in those resources is very questionable.
I would think double sinks would be worth the cost. Less criticals used means more equipment can be used. Maybe fit the ferrous fiber armor, or endosteel to free up some weight. The ERPPC is another one worth it. Doing the extra damage with the same heat cost seems to be a good reason to do so. The missile launchers is a no brainer. Even if it is just used for the elite units, it would be worth it.
We already had the discussion of just how much bs the cost thing is to most houses. The earth today seems to spend that much, yet only has one world. Not hundreds.
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Karagin
04/20/19 11:59 PM
72.176.171.47
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The idea of SL caches is and has been one of the things that can make or break things in the story line. Sure you can find stuff but again how much is actually usable? How much is still functional?
Ghostrider you argument on the IS making Clan tech is similar to ones I have used, and depending on who was here at the time as far as active members, the remarks were either hey good point to how dare you question things. The idea is they would have made similar weapons and kept some of things that worked for them, with the "normal" stuff being dumped on the merc market as well as on the minor powers. House militaries (just like real world ones) get the new wonder toys before merc units would.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/21/19 02:31 AM
1.158.130.13
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Even during the FC Civil war we find Snord’s Irregulars upon Odessa conducting an archaeological dig.
And what of all the abandoned and lost worlds that occurred for a variety of reasons from war’s WMDs; during the Amaris War how many Rim Worlds Planets just disappeared or even satellite factories or just due to a natural disaster (famine) etc. how often has anyone returned to investigate these worlds for possible salvageable technology for at the time people when they were being evacuated, were they forced to leave behind their large machinery? – such as agricultural / mining etc.
Has anyone completed a survey of these lost and forgotten worlds contained within the historical vaults upon each capitol world – what secrets might they contain by just finding a world’s name and its coordinates. Consider all the Military Unit Reports that may contain a snippet of information.
Also consider this during the 3039 war FC Vs. DC – the utilization of lost jump points used by the DC to strike at the FC. Why not remember lost worlds that could become staging bases for future invasion corridors – unseen and unknown once more.
And then we have the ComStar’s White Aerospace fighters destroying a found warship within the Periphery … and what about the WOB’s hidden five worlds …
And lastly what of the time travelling warship – let us not forget this hidden gem ….
There are just too many instances throughout the canon history to consider the supposition that all that was lost is gone for good at any time the writers just put them in for one reason or another and yet we the gamer's are not allowed to even consider this as a viable game as it might upset everything!…. Plus, I must say, it makes for a good story /game as it gives the gaming group the chance to re-introduce lost tech into their game, so why are we supplied with TROs if you are never allowed to use its contents (such as when the 2750 initially came out – and we were never allowed to use it with the 3025 war) ….
People and gaming groups must be allowed the chance to expand “their universe” through the acquisition of the unknown hidden find …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Jakapan
06/18/19 07:42 AM
72.130.232.87
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I'm enjoying this thread and will definitely use some of the ideas in my games with my exploration group, GAS, Galactic Astrographic Society.
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Requiem
12/02/19 09:36 PM
1.158.182.82
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Book: Shattered Sphere Page 5 – A History of the Inner Sphere – “By the year 2235 (119 years after the first colony upon New Earth), an Alliance survey had counted more than six hundred human colonies across a sphere roughly eighty light years in diameter.”
Think about this statement – 600 Colonies – 600 systems within area of only 80 Light years.
So, over the years - some were abandoned – others destroyed outright during the Amaris / Kerensky War and the following Succession Wars.
However, once you consider this information, shouldn’t this area contain the remnants of these former colonies - also shouldn’t many of these worlds also have the remnants of space stations and naval yards that were used to establish the IS as it is known currently.
My interest therefore revolves around the possible salvage contained within these lost Terran Alliance Worlds.
Would they be completely picked over (by the Houses of old and ComStar) in the intervening years or could there still be items of interest?
Also considering how contested the area of space around Terra has become why were these worlds never converted into hidden bases – as some should have still been livable – not all can be considered totally lost!
So why not go exploring through the lost systems of the former Terran Alliance?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/03/19 01:29 AM
66.74.60.165
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Think about this statement – 600 Colonies – 600 systems within area of only 80 Light years.
The 600 systems isn't stated in the first part of the post.
So that there is the start of a bad foundation.
The main thought is that a colony could be on different worlds in a system or even on the same world, IE German and Italian colonies on one world, yet each considered their own.
Would they be completely picked over (by the Houses of old and ComStar) in the intervening years or could there still be items of interest?
I would think a combination of both. Something that is trash to one person, may well be the part someone else needs to fix something of theirs. An example might be the thrusters of a drop ship. Say it fits a Vengeance class dropship, but you need one to fit a Leopard. Only so much modification can be done to make it work. Especially if you found the lighter one and needed a heavier one.
Much like junkyards. Rear end accidents means rear bumpers and such are in high demand, but the passenger side door might be too abundant to even sell.
Also considering how contested the area of space around Terra has become why were these worlds never converted into hidden bases – as some should have still been livable – not all can be considered totally lost!
So why not go exploring through the lost systems of the former Terran Alliance?
I want to say most of the worlds in the old Alliance are still inhabited. A few dropped out of the lime light, as things dried up, or were wiped out, but I don't see all of them being 'forgotten' like the WOB bases. Comstar should know they were there.
I do agree that there should be large chunks of things in some systems, like parts of a ship yard. Destruction of a station does not have to mean vaporization. In fact, I would doubt that was done at all. How many war zones have partial buildings in a bombed out area? It is possible things still function in a few of them, especially if in a protected structure. If not, then what are bomb shelters good for?
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Requiem
12/03/19 07:13 AM
1.158.182.82
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Go to Sarna.net Wiki and have a look, yes there are 600+ systems within an area of 80 light years.
So how come there is no concentration of worlds like this in any other area of the IS? Creating a amp for this number / not to mention all the worlds names would have been a horrendous exercise ….
Sorry but I cannot see 600 entire systems worlds being picked over completely – there must be something still there – especially when you consider what is still upon lost worlds within the Great Houses – ie. FS’s former capitol Avalon - still there when explorer groups were sent out to find the WOB lost 5 worlds!
Everyone should know the location of these worlds not only ComStar – it is just a question of digging up the records in the archives.
Good to see that partial stations could still exist – these alone could contain a wealth of information / technology and who knows what else …
For me this is an excellent game scenario that could be fitted in almost anywhere in the time line.
Employers could be Houses or large corporations or it could be just an ancient treasure map
Enemy – ComStar, WOB, rival treasure hunters etc
Who knows what you could find?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/03/19 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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At the completion of the Alliance Grand Survey of Inhabited Planets in 2235, the Terran Alliance stood at the very zenith of its power, controlling more than 600 inhabited colonies within 120 light years of Terra.[2][5] However, this statistic is misleading; less than 360 worlds were actually controlled by the Alliance, while illegal colonies and blockade running were common practice
This is under Terran Alliance on the wiki.
So there is a problem in the numbers, not that it really matters that much.
Naming systems might only be done for those that could be inhabited, which might give the developers a break, and say the rest need biodomes and such.
And I agree that some of the caches should have this information in them, as well as any worlds around where the cache is. I would figure a research facility that is looking into jump technology would have all known jump points in memory. Maybe as a way to find a ship they test incase it doesn't work right.
Even the finds on Galtor should have had something in it.
The stations isn't written down, but logic would say some would. Even ones that were boarded and gassed should be around. And of all those ships decommissioned.. They all just ceased to exist, even though more then a few of them would never have been touched due to money or time issues? Camelot Command should have a full listing of all systems in it, as it was a navy base. It might be well protected, but this should mean a few secret ones as well.
Speaking of secret bases, there should be some in systems for things like researching black holes or other spacial anomalties.
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Requiem
12/03/19 06:53 PM
1.158.182.82
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Yes, the text (Sarna.net wiki – Terran Alliance) does include the following “At the completion of the Alliance Grand Survey of Inhabited Planets in 2235, the Terran Alliance stood at the very zenith of its power, controlling more than 600 inhabited colonies within 120 light years of Terra.[2][5] However, this statistic is misleading; less than 360 worlds were actually controlled by the Alliance”
However within the Faction Profile under controlled systems it states 600+ - this is also reiterated within Page 5 of Shattered Sphere – and rather than being 120 light years this book states it was 80 light years.
So, which source is the more factual / correct? …… Ruling required by moderator please?
Maps
I believe every House’s archives should have a complete map of the entire IS – it would just take a very good archivist to find it – maps have always been highly prized documents and during the age of the Star League commerce / tourism was/would have been of major importance to all – they (Star League Government) would have ensured anyone and everyone could purchase a map (it would have been that accessible!).
Camelot Command
The maps within this Stations computers would contain all secret military bases (once you are able to hack the security protocols) – so 1st Somerset Strikers would have given this to the Lyran Govt. – who (once hacked) would send in a recovery team. If another Houses / ComStar / WOB learn of this info. From their spy (and they are able to get a copy of the information) it will become a race to see who gets to each one first and who is able to hold onto them.
And yes, I also agree there should be civilian / university stations used for researching special anomalies.
So, this would make for a good nay great backdrop for a game!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/03/19 08:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Any sort of expedition, done right, would make for a great campaign, if not few missions. It doesn't even have to pan out as correct for the objectives.
Simply looking for star charts could well result in some new information being found that could help reduce the chance of a misjump by so much, or even open up more pirate points.
Even a new jumpship or fighter could come about. I would say a functioning warship, but that might be too much.
Even just another jump point to follow a trail, could lead to things like a warehouse of 20 gauss rifles before the helm core.
Then add in trying to restore the factory without attracting attention could be another scenario that comes from it. Even a few mech line or two. But most don't want anything other then being mercs, so getting a base might not be in their interests.
Add in the old political betrayal, or Comstar doesn't want the tech returning to the IS arsenals.
Even if it is nothing more then advance terraforming, or maybe regenerative equipment for restoring lost limbs could be done.
And to make an ongoing mission, finding one area that has only a small part of the map, and sends you to another that has a bit more, not having a complete map in one location. Maybe someone thought of the maps being lost or hunted down, so scattered them across the entire IS. Even finding a code to decrypt some archives that has them could be done.
The nasty thing you could do is have the map not show up WHERE it is complete. So they have to piece which part goes where.
Like one map is around New Avalon, but doesn't say that. Or you need 3 different locations to make the map full around it.
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Requiem
12/05/19 09:36 PM
1.158.182.82
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The end of the Terran Alliance? Or the beginning of something more terrifying ……
Sarna.net wiki – Terran Alliance does include the following … At the completion of the Alliance Grand Survey of Inhabited Planets in 2235, the Terran Alliance stood at the very zenith of its power, controlling more than 600 inhabited colonies within 120 light years of Terra.[2][5] However, this statistic is misleading; less than 360 worlds were actually controlled by the Alliance.
However within the Faction Profile under controlled systems it states 600+ - this is also reiterated within Page 5 of Shattered Sphere – and rather than being 120 light years this book states it was 80 light years.
So was there multiple colonies upon single worlds?
Also how do multiple colonies upon a single world live – harmoniously? or trepidation? or hostility?
However, this does not dispute the fact that their remaining worlds are a mere fraction of its original complement.
How could this have occurred? Why did this occur? Why does no one know about all these former worlds?
Did it occur from the Amaris / Kerensky War through the initial succession wars? Or what if it was something else?
Let me create an alternate hypothesis ….
The worlds of the Terran Alliance are the oldest colonies – thus they would also be the most technologically advanced and containing some of the most populated worlds within the IS. The jewels of the Star League!
Thus every Great House would desire these worlds.
And what if the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere were not obeying the Star League restrictions as to the forces they were allowed. What if they maintained vast fleets and armies upon hidden systems within their realm’s vast area? Then at the end of the Amaris civil war these fleets from all the houses descended upon all these systems and in one vast battle, lasting mere months, the majority of these worlds became uninhabitable for one reason or another.
Thus these battles were the true opening salvo of the First Succession War!
Thus these systems are considered be just a mass graveyard of warships and the remnants of these worlds from all Houses and all the battles therein.
Why does no one know it? The atrocities conducted by every fleet in the name of each of the Great Houses – the population upon every world must have been incredibly vast - the loss of life must have been immeasurable!
Thus over time this must have been removed from all the history books and over time been consigned to myth and legend!
As a consequence this may have been the reason all Houses have minimized / refrained from using WMDs and Orbital bombardments.
However, what if the IS needs a new enemy in the future, a new Clans as it were, so what if some of the peoples of these worlds survived and over time they rebuilt their societies? What if rather than finding dead worlds your archaeology team becomes the new “Outbound light”, The former worlds of the Outworlds Alliance would hate all the IS and especially the SLDF when they just left – thus allowing the Great Houses to decimate their worlds. This society thus would have no love for the Great Houses or the Clans. So rather than the Republic Fortress opening its borders once more, what if what come s out are the decedents of these worlds – and they have just one goal – the destruction of the Inner Sphere?
And what if the remnants of the WOB that just disappeared were taken by these forces – so their former technology is now available to the former Alliance worlds military?
So there is now a new invasion but this time from the inside out – and their technology is even superior to that of the Clans.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/05/19 10:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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Multiple colonies on a single word was done. Hence the conflicts of those ancestors in modern(their time) time.
This comes about when the first succession war breaks out, as ALL the houses invade the old Hegemony and take worlds.
The only world that I know of that wasn't taken was Terra.
If it wasn't glowing or had chemical clouds hanging over everything, I believe the state house took and fought over them.
Also, multiple colonies may have been in the same system. Not just one world. So I would think the numbers are off. In the Sol system, you could very well have Mars and possibly Venus as colonies.
Multiple colonies on a single world is a mixed thing. Just like the countries on Earth, it is up to those living there. I would assume the entire gantlet was run on different worlds. It is very possible they didn't know of each other for a few generations.
Time frame would be an issue for those that survived the war and fled to form a new 'clans' type society. Kerensky took millions with him and over 300 years finally got to the point of attacking the IS. And even with the iron wombs, they did not really have the numbers to do much.
But that isn't saying there couldn't be colonies with high numbers, stuck in an agricultural setting, just needing someone to bring in advanced tech. I know you love the idea of the Wolverines doing something. I could see setting it up with 'pirates' raiding worlds for 'slaves', which turn out to be free on the worlds they are taken to, with one exception. Not being able to return home. Large amounts of raids could get you the numbers, as long as you have the resources. Brainwashing is possible, but I would stay away from that.
The WOB story has some merit. But the time frame here would be an issue. With WOBs defeat, comstar could very well maintain a technological edge. But WOB could very well still be tapped into the HPG network. So it does have some basis.
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Requiem
12/06/19 06:01 AM
1.158.182.82
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Consider the war within the 600+ systems
Apocalyptic comes to mind, these are the oldest and most populated of worlds – rather than allow a rival house to conquer the world the opposing forces incinerate it or turn it into a chemical quagmire.
And this occurred on what 550 systems (approx.)?
What if some were able to survive and over time were able to find other survivors, and over time what would be their desire?
Given the track record of the game’s developers, would having a new “Clan” army be unsurprising?
From Hidden Clans, to hidden space stations, to hidden worlds why not a hidden former Star League realm?
AS for their population – how many survived and were able to thrive over the many years between the fall and 3150?
Also how many were able to escape the war and yet found themselves in another part of the Alliance and yet despite everything were able to survive?
Even if you don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of a new “Clan” – this doesn’t remove the fact that approx. 550 systems became unlivable - and yet no one discusses this atrocity by all the Houses’ military in their quest for absolute power.
Has anyone considered what was done here? It makes all past atrocities seem insignificant to what was perpetrated here.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
01/06/20 03:12 AM
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The following was brought up in another post, I am just putting it here also due to how it relates to the above title ....
Question – where are the ship scrap-yards? As I haven’t read of any of these being in existence
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How many ships were mothballed to be scuttled or disassembled, and were forgotten in the wars?
Excellent question - The only ship I remember is the Tirpitz and the one the WoB were going to give the LC to re-establish the SL– and as no one else established this topic – none - or we are to assume the ComStar got to them all first.
Though I would like to say if the game allows for individuals to find lost SL BattleMech factories I don’t see why we can’t have Warships.
Again we are back to creating units that wander the lost / forgotten / destroyed SL worlds in the hope you can find something.
I would also like to suggest sites of large naval battles – if you want spare parts for your warships you may find something within these wrecks floating in space – also there may also be secure compartments that contain other SL treasures - has anyone gone wreck hunting?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
01/30/20 08:17 PM
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Question: Whilst exploring many Naval graveyards you come across many "hulks" that still have some viable sections - if you were able to find enough sections and you were able to transfer them back to a dry-dock could you create a "Frankenstein" warship - one made up of parts from all different ships?
There could be parts from all sections of ships still out there and still viable depending on where they were hit during a battle and where the main explosion occurred.
The wiring would be nuts - the electronics would be a nightmare - creating a new keel from which all the sections would have to be mounted on would be difficult (and yet not impossible when you could use a Jump-ship keel).
Cutting up the parts so as they can fit together and then joining them together may also be difficult and yet not impossible considering your House still has the ability to manufacture Jump-ships.
But once done could you build such a ship? and could you have then built them even after the last true warship was destroyed?
Thus by using this technique could a House build a small fleet of these "warships" undetected by their enemies - thus giving them a competitive advantage over their rivals - even if it took 50 to 75 years to complete?
Plausible / non-plausible? and why
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/31/20 03:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is one major ship yard that was 'discovered' during the clan war. Camelot Command.
With that said, it is very possible ships were placed in a remote system to be disassembled when time permitted. I say remote, as you do not want everyone knowing there were ships ready to be taken by a force large enough to do to. And to have multiple ones as well.
Some ships took 18 months to build, and they tended to be built in multiple shipyards, did they multiple mothball areas?
The LC pulled out their last warship out of a museum to take on the DCs last warship. Comstar had theirs mothballed, but it does make you wonder... What did the SLDF do with the periphery's warships that were captured? I don't know if they used them to take on Amaris, though their lower tech might still have been forced into service.
Just sections of a warship wouldn't be all that could be taken. Simple things, like ammo feeds or electronics could give rise to advancing the rediscovery of warships. Simply taken the coding for weapons targeting from a working model would advance such ideas.
Learning advanced techniques, like life support that wasn't as big and bulky as standard could be done. Even the layout might well help rebuild ships.
It isn't like all ships dies because of the same reason in the same location. If you live in an area where you get rear ended in car accidents that wipe out the left rear bumper, would give rise to a lack of parts for it. But say you found a car that the front end was destroyed, and the rear was in good shape. Needs in one location may well be solved by something in another location.
I could see this as plausible, though not that often.
It does lead to the what if scenario.
What if there was a few ships that weren't decommed in such a location, that the SLDF taken off stopped them from being 'fixed' to avoid any use. A full operational, minus ammo, ship could well be found there. If you want to be a really nice GM, then having it stocked, and just shut down could be done.
And the clans lost some of their records during the formation period of the clans, I don't think they would know them all anymore. They forgot Camelot Command after all.
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Requiem
01/31/20 03:58 PM
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Quote:
There is one major ship yard that was 'discovered' during the clan war. Camelot Command.
How many shipyards should there have been within the former TH? How many could still be orbiting a Lost / Destroyed world? How many damaged shipyards could be rebuilt and refurbished?
Considering the vast armadas the TH produced – both military (warships) and merchant navy (Jump-ships) – where are their shipyards? It is inconceivable that they were only produced within the Terran system.
And yes there must be ship breaking yards – where are they, what could still be there?
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What did the SLDF do with the periphery's warships that were captured?
In all probability, I would suggest they (the SLDF) just renamed it and then painted a Cameron Star on the Hull. It would then be pressed into the SLDF Navy and this would have occurred with any Amaris Warship / Commercial Jumpship captured as well.
(Though for Navy personnel renaming it may be seen by some as jinxing it, a ship cannot have two souls! That is unless you go through a traditional ceremony to appease the gods ……)
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…. Building a Frankenstein Ship …..
I believe that everything that can be salvaged will be salvaged.
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If you want to be a really nice GM
There are many different scenarios available from totally destroyed to near pristine and ready to go ….
New Table to reflect what is found? And what class?
Yes I agree this is plausible Alt. Universe game scenario that should be considered for your home game.
Though care must be taken for when you return from Lost Worlds to the IS, every great House will now put a bulls eye on your unit to find out your secrets. Clearly this should only be allowed under the auspices of one of the Great Houses Government – you may get a Jumpship out of it, but the Warship remains with your employer (unless warships are common within your universe so that it will not upset the game unduly.
Though this will add a great game for your unit and will expand the many interesting sites to visit within the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/31/20 09:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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The questions should be how many ship yards are in the other areas close to the periphery states? Camelot can not be the only one built, though I can understand if all the rest were destroyed. I can also see that some uninhabited systems might hold something, even if it is just a holding area for ships.
I will counter part of that, as not only the Dragoons had personal warships, but the Blue Star Irregulars ended up with one. So it isn't like the IS houses forced them to turn over their ships, with the Dragoons being unlikely to be ordered in the first place. And what do you do if you find such a thing when employed with a house or even noble within a nation? The Argo was very unlikely situation that an employer would gift a unique ship to a mercenary unit.
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Requiem
01/31/20 11:44 PM
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Quote:
The questions should be how many ship yards are in the other areas close to the periphery states?
Yes I agree … you have come up with an excellent scenario … thanks.
2577-2597 – The Reunification War – where each of the four major Periphery realms were conquered;
2765 – The New Vandenberg Uprising – began in the Taurian Concordat – substantial numbers of SLDF troops were redeployed away from the core worlds to fight unrest (in the Periphery);
Camelot Command – uses as the homeport of the Star League’s Twelfth Fleet for capital ship repairs, refitting and supply during actions against the Rim Worlds Republic ….
There must be multiple “Camelot Command” Stations scattered throughout the IS and close to each of the four major periphery realms to enable each SL Fleet to propagate activities within each of these periphery states …. And there may even be multiple stations to allow each fleet the flexibility to engage a periphery state from a different direction ….
I also wouldn’t put it past the SL Navy to have established a station close to each Great Houses Capital – in the even t a Great House goes rogue they could then use the station as a spring board to invade the rogue capital world …
Could they still exist, yes I do believe they could still exist. When considering the level of security that is seen with regards to the Dark Nebula Camelot Command each station must be well and truly difficult to find and gain access to ….
So, where is their access information as well as their location maps? …. Lost to time or hidden within a secret Fleet Admiralty Station within the former TH …. So you may need to find this first ….
This scenario makes for an interesting game, especially when you consider the ramifications of what could happen when a station falls to the wrong hands …..
How far would some Great Houses go to locate this information? Could your unit have a spy in it for an unknown agency?
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…. it isn't like the IS houses forced them to turn over their ships,….
Here I wonder why? Being the only Great House with a Navy vessel, how far would any state go to achieve this?
Also, when the Dragoons are working for a rival House, how many would actively target these vessels – or do they fall under the Ares Conventions … “a code of conduct which would ensure the survival of both knowledge and the increasingly irreplaceable JumpShips”, thus making them sacrosanct.
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The Argo was very unlikely situation that an employer would gift a unique ship to a mercenary unit.
I cannot see any situation where a warship would ever become a mercenary unit.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/01/20 02:20 AM
66.74.60.165
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The argo wasn't a warship, but a unique dropship. One that could dock to a jumpship, and have another attach to it for the jump. It was also able to allow their crew to modify mechs inside the bays, as well as store an large amount of cargo, as you could store at least 10 mechs, though they were split up into 3 parts on the easy mode of the game.
The question of why can't ships double dock on jumpships has come up, as you can fit a behemoth in a docking collar, but couldn't stack a pair of Leopards on one?
This came about when it was suggested the SL Octopus tug could remain attached to a ship that is was moving on a jumpship. Again, inconsistant things going on.
Given how many 'undiscovered' caches and secret research bases, the idea of a few that missed the succession wars is possible. One that might have been both a research base as well as a warship production facility. Make something that can be used to spy on others, yet disclaimed if they are ever seen. Or experimenting with longer jumps. There is a whole line of things that could be used to support this idea. Even dropships with naval weapons being researched when the League fell is possible. A new dropship that didn't get finished for instance. That is the story behind the Stone Rhino(Behemoth) mech. So it isn't like it would be unique in being used as a back story.
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Requiem
02/01/20 05:07 AM
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Quote:
…..inconsistent things going on.
Double docking of multiple drop-ships – Sarna.net wiki Docking Collar
The structural integrity of a docking collar should not be a problem when an individual collar costs 10,000 C-Bills.
The issue should be the jump-ship’s jump field – does it completely extends to and encompasses all the docked ships as well as the double docked ships.
So if the field does cover them I cannot see a problem.
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There is a whole line of things that could be used to support this idea. Even dropships with naval weapons being researched when the League fell is possible.
I would prefer naval weapons on Amaris (and in the future WoB) Drones.
As for me – when my unit went looking for lost technology within the former TH – came out with the plans for Titan and Cargo-Master.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/01/20 11:30 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with the game and docking collars falls into the hole of fitting into the KF boom. A Behemoth is much larger then even two of the average aerodyne dropships, yet you can't do a double docking. One on top of the other. Unless they dock with the engines against the dropship, but even then, I don't see why you couldn't stack them along the spine if there is room. Also, it doesn't allow for something like a simple cargo container to be used to dock with the jumpship, then allow a dropship to dock with it.
The KF boom is another wild card. Just how far can it extend from the ship?
What is the minimum it can deal with? The distance of the nose or sail sections being the thought. Yet the spinnerets of the sails looks to be far beyond most dropship sizes.
Quite the distance, as they were using multiple ships to move ice burgs. I am not suggesting two Behemoths would fit, but a pair of Buccaneers or something like it would. Also the wiki says weight isn't an issue.
Except for a few worlds, the idea of a dropshuttle would be useless as space on jumpships are implied to be filled almost all of the time.
Might be a design to make. A dropship that has a docking collar or two on it, so other dropships can dock with it, making space to allow more movement of cargo. Almost like a T on piping. It would allow communications from the other ships to interface with the jumpships controls, so it could accurately calculate the entire payload for all attached.
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Requiem
02/01/20 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Drop-ships, docking collars and the jump-ship’s jump field….
Yes I agree there are issues when you look at the practice of utilizing a drop-ship logically. All I can suggest is add it to the list of all issues that make no sense. But when the games core idea is maintain a simple is best policy (even when it doesn’t make sense) – there will always be problems within the game. Unfortunately it is a core tenant of the game / construction rule so I doubt it will ever change.
You always have the option of creating a Home rule based upon how a magnetic field works – create a proximity field distance based upon the strength of your Jump-ships engine as well as a total mass level you can transport per Jump-ship engine strength – then just allow a total number of drop-ships allowed based upon their individual sizes / double docking and mass.
Remember the cost of a docking collar is practically nothing – thus the engineering behind it must be very simple for a drop-ship when either Jumping between systems or when moving to a recharge station.
Problem – turning the game into a mathematical exercise – can’t have that can we?, as it would make the game too logical as well as ensuring accuracy within the game – (It would also turn the game into an accountants / mathematicians exercise – and you would loose much of the fun simple actions) – it’s like the idea of having an accurate loss depletion report for every battle – can’t have that as it would mean that TPTB would actually have to explain how they came to some of their decisions within the game that made no sense whatsoever!
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Cargo transport within the IS
Many of the larger cargo transport drop-ships are unable to land on the planet necessitating the transport of its cargo by shuttle .
Cargo
Mammoth – 37,767 tons
Behemoth – 75,121 tons
So, how many round trips would this take and how long would it take even if you had a large fleet of shuttles (and most worlds would not have access to more than a few)? Plus what about the idea of cargo box size? As well as the idea of transporting Perishables?
However, during the SL era there was the Department of Mega Engineering - so where are the space elevators?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator
However, this would mean that the future transfer of all cargo would then become an efficient exercise.
Or are we to assume every one of these (on every world) were also destroyed during the 1st SW?
Can I add this to the list of things we can’t make – like that of terra-forming even though the IS’s technology rating has been F – from 3060 onwards – even above that of the Star League era – so can anyone explain why there isn’t a company per House creating these elevators to allow for greater economic development for worlds that rely upon export / import of goods?
Too sensible an idea, even for just the Capitol of each Great House?
Or are we to assume they are just too expensive (and not cost efficient)?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/01/20 03:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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Tharkad would be a good place to try some type of terraforming. If to remove some of the cold weather it has.
To be honest, I think it would be easier for shipping if they had some sort of transfer point at the jump points, so they could just dock something like a Behemoth with it, and move all the cargo meant for that system, and load up cargo for the next jump. Then use system ships to move the cargo to the world(s) they were meant for as well as bring out going items to the transfer station.
The could really cut down on wasting a lot of fuel, especially when there is lots of little cargo runs in system. But then that would severely cut into raids, as any ship that isn't a registered, known cargo vessel would draw attention immediately, as it should be that the jump point, not on the way to any worlds.
Now watch how you phrase mathematical nightmare, as more then a few suggesting would bog down game play. Even the needed sensor idea would do so.
But changing the number of dropships that can be brought into a system doesn't really get that involved with math. Right now, a max of 9 for a monolith. Limiting that to just double would be 18.
Just thought about this. It would allow forces with just Leopard dropships to come in bulk, not just 1 or 2 for the smaller jumpships. An invader or merchant class jumpship could only carry two at this time. 4 would be just doubling. It would allow for more raiders in one shot.
Another thought. A suggestion to using this concept in a game might well be the coordinates being recorded in a system, but have it with a false time line, such as the date of some special occasion.
Saying the League was formed on dec(12) of 2199, instead of the real date.
Then one or two entries could be the combination code to accessing the facility or one that has the information to where the one you are looking for is at.
Edited by ghostrider (02/01/20 03:52 PM)
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Requiem
02/01/20 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Logistics
There are many different ways to transfer cargo from cargo drop-ships to worlds. As each would have a different economy to work with – as well as many corporations would have their own technological capabilities when it comes to available technology.
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Mathematics in the game
The game can be simple and unrealistic or complex and realistic – to be both at the same time will require many optional rules.
How many list are out there – my private list reaches almost 3 pages as to the points I would like to see changed and why.
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…. changing the number of drop-ships that can be brought into a system….Right now, a max of 9 for a monolith.
Potemkin Class – Dropship Capacity 25
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…. (more) smaller jump-ships….invader or merchant class….would allow for more raiders in one shot.
Correct, however I would leave individual strategies up to each gamming team as to how they would want to prosecute their own war.
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…. a false time line….
Alt. Universe? Is this designed to increase the rate of IS technological development prior to the Clan invasion of during the Clan invasion?
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….TPTB….
In creating the clans in such prodigious numbers – as well as so far removed from the IS, has created a logistical nightmare when it comes to establishing realms between the two empires.
Question: what is the long term goal of having two separate empires – the tyranny of distance makes combat between the two realms extremely difficult.
In the long run shouldn’t these two realms have been closer so that war could eventuate on more than the one Invasion Corridor war? Why create the space between the two realms if you don’t establish many new realms between them, and then have them all fighting each other throughout their prolonged history?
It would make more sense than the mess of a history the canon university suggests is correct ….
Start with Europe (the IS)
Then the pilgrimage to the new world (the exodus)
Rather than Europe imposing their will over the pilgrims we have the pilgrims (the Clans) imposing their will over Europe (the IS)
Next?
The Gold rush – the rush for new land
The Indian wars – settlers Vs. Corporations
The quest for statehood and law and order
The quest for nationhood
Wars between nations over borders and resources…
Question – if the ultimate goal is to have a Universe wide War Between
The Axis – The Clans and all states aligned to them; and
The Allies – the new SL and all states aligned to them
Then why provide one side with a massive warship navy and the other with nothing whatsoever?
Plus what I am suggesting here is wars into the hundreds of years into the future …. And not the limiting wars that would occur by limiting the battlefield to only the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 06:29 PM)
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ghostrider
02/01/20 08:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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First point that needs to be asked is how many Potemkins does the IS own? 0?
A false time line wasn't saying an alt at all. It would be naming a well known event in the games history, such as the formation of the Star League, and using a wrong date. A secret message telling those that read it, some code to use, or maybe a coordinate on the world or even in the system. Longitude, Latitude sort of thing. Even jump coordinates could be given out this way.
Like saying the 4th succession war started in 3031, meaning 30 degrees north, by 31 degrees east. You go there and find a facility hidden in jungle/forest/cave/underwater.
The is says something like war ended in 3049. Meaning a combo of 30, 4, 9.
To anyone not paying attention, they would think it was just a horribly wrong book. To an intel agent, it might be just a location and code for a facility they need to report to. Use that as a drop box, then find another clue.
Most in the IS would be more worried about where they were at, with the exception of taking out the clans. It would be stupid to think the refusal war would end the clans invasion, but building up forces to take them out would be the ideal solution. Not just running off and making new worlds to have to guard from not only the clans, but even political entities in our own government. Some would do so, but not in the numbers suggested. Companies might sponsor some expeditions to find new resources, but that would not start off with 30,000 people being sent to a world. 3000 is far to many. Maybe 30 or so to scout it out. Depending on how long it takes to find anything of value, another couple of years to even 10, to send the next 3000.
The realm you want should run into the millions, maybe even hundred millions of people. Not likely with a hostile enemy in the potential area. The expansion from Terra was different. There were no known organized military entities that would destroy you quickly. Pirates did come up, but they were nothing like the clans.
To be honest, a galaxy wide war would have started with greater clan numbers, then have them have their little spats with issues, and slowly start building their 'empires' soon after being formed. Then when the IS stopped the invasion clans, they broke down into a civil war as all started accusing each other of sabotaguing the invasion or the other clans to make sure they were not allowed to be part of it. Much like the Jaguars/Falcons making sure no other crusader clan could compete with taking Terra, so that would permanently remove those clans from being anything but fodder for the winner.
This would also be used to suggest who ever won Terra, would start wiping out the other political entity in the clans. Warden/Crusader lines.
Greed would be another reason why the clans would have split. Why should the invasion clans get more equipment, as they were poor warriors to even lose them to the supposed inferior IS forces? My clan can't expand because all the production is going to them. Not acceptable.
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Requiem
02/01/20 09:55 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
First point that needs to be asked is how many Potemkins does the IS own? 0?
… and how many could they make, as all they need is the plans – they could even make derivatives of the original?
So, a false time line refers to a cryptography cipher ….
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Most in the IS would be more worried about where they were at, with the exception of taking out the clans.
This would require an understanding the each worlds / Houses sociology – assuming they are the same as any current culture could be accurate or it could be well off the mark. Even in the past 30 years the sociology of many countries have shifted to a new norm. So, who is to say what the dominant societies within the IS could be? To this end I can on assume that every GM and player has the right to determine this for their own Alt. Universe.
The Canon universe, as it is presented, is a very one dimensional portrait of the civilians of the IS – one that cannot explain the difference between the civilians and that of the warriors. Its basic assumption that whole planets will just roll over for one 15 “Mech Company and with no infantry is laughable. The idea that fostering or the Caste system would be readily accepted by many worlds is also laughable – and yet by allowing many worlds to remain under the thumb of the clans it is expected that this is accepted as fact, and that no one objects, and their compliance will be ensured …..
Sorry, but if the TPTB expect me to believe in this severely damaged IS society there is something severely wrong somewhere.
As for creating a new realm through the “wagon train / gold rush” approach – greed and the desire for a better life have always ensured the expansion of the human race – in the future all it will require is the technology.
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The realm you want should run into the millions, maybe even hundred millions of people. Not likely with a hostile enemy in the potential area. The expansion from Terra was different. There were no known organized military entities that would destroy you quickly. Pirates did come up, but they were nothing like the clans.
Diseases … famine ….pestilence….shipwrecked….the possibility of meeting another sentient life form …. The unknown … etc. etc.
It is not only our fellow man we need to fear in the coldness of space ….
And yet we still left the cradle of humanity for the vastness of space …. Which would have required a vast amount of faith and belief as well as the desire for freedom in our solitude from other colonies throughout the IS…..
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a galaxy wide war
When two or more sides arise where each has a perfect belief in their righteousness – and each has a vast military force, then you see a vast war that could encompass everything and everywhere …..
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Much like the Jaguars/Falcons making sure no other crusader clan could compete with taking Terra, so that would permanently remove those clans from being anything but fodder for the winner.
…and here I thought it was going to be more like the one ring to rule them all – the one ring being the right to call your clan the il-Clan …… However, I would like to point out one point, the Clans are Mongols – so even if a Clan won the title today, tomorrow the title could be won in combat by another …. only the current strength of your Khan as well as your Touman can allow you to be called the il-Clan, if this ever changes another will rise up to take it!
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Much like the Jaguars/Falcons making sure no other crusader clan could compete with taking Terra, so that would permanently remove those clans from being anything but fodder for the winner.
Fist you would have to prove it on and off the battlefield through the use of skillful alliances – lest you enemies combine their forces and destroy you!
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Greed would be another reason why the clans would have split. Why should the invasion clans get more equipment,
…and here I though every Clan had its own military industrial facilities as well as R&D unit.
Expecting every other Clan that is not the il-Clan to pay them a tithe (rent) is getting a little too far fetched – the loss in pride to even suggest an action is unbelievable – better the Clan die off in combat than become the subservient vassal for another …. Their pride would never allow such a situation!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/01/20 11:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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One of the books suggested that the clan leaders requisition the units, and have then made.
But that goes counter to the Huntress invasion, as well as the Snow Ravens being the main space manufacturing facilities.
The R&D seems fit that each clan has their own, as the heavy laser was from one, while the Epona omni tank came from another.
As stated, most. Not all of the IS would be concerned about where they lived.
For some, the lure of the lands of the free would pull them to do so. It seems that most don't want to deal with possible pirates, or a hard life. The lack of some items would seem to limit those that want to head out and make their own cities and worlds. Large corporations are a different story, and the military would be a toss up. Spreading out their forces isn't something they want, but the ability to strike an enemy in the flank is. So their interest would be short term. Use it as a staging ground, then dump it later.
Being based on, but not actual Mongols being the key here. There are a very large differences in their thinking, which also applies to each clan. Grouping them together is much like saying the entire IS is the same. It isn't.
The thing with the prize for Terra, it was agreed it would make the first clan the Ilclan forever. Not sure how long an agreement like that is, but to suggest only 4 could become such, would not sit well with the other clans. Even if they were weak, they would not just sit back and allow this to happen. If nothing else, they would be using the invasion as a cover for hitting them with trials of possession, if there wasn't an agreement to prevent that. And even then, I doubt it would stop it entirely.
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Requiem
02/02/20 12:57 AM
1.158.235.15
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…..clan leaders requisition the units, and have then made.
Requisition units?
Sending in an official order to whom, and for what? This sounds like mercenary units ….
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It seems that most don't want to deal with possible pirates, or a hard life.
Or maybe the lure of a massive plot of land or a fresh start is more appealing ….
As for limited resources …. How much did the first exodites have with them when they left Terra?
This is supposed to be a new exodus.
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Grouping them together is much like saying the entire IS is the same. It isn't.
However, at their core there really isn’t much difference … the idea of the Ubermensch (the Superhuman) …. Being trueborn and being indoctrinated that they are superior to that of the free-born? Or has the idea of equality for all spread to the some of the clans - can we expect a Freeborn Khan anytime soon?
In addition to this do see any change in the underlining principle that might makes right – circle of equals, trial of position (rank), trial of grievance etc….. so that being the better warrior makes to right no matter what!
No, at their heart they are bigoted genetic supremacists who believe their ability to fight makes them better (and correct in their actions) than everyone else ….
Or is there such a thing as a True-born warrior pacifist who believes it is better to protect people and help people (from any culture, birth genetic materials etc.) …..
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The thing with the prize for Terra, it was agreed it would make the first clan the Ilclan forever.
This is why you have a Trial of Absorption …. Take them, take their title … just because you have the title il-Clan does not mean you are free of all the Clan’s rules and cultural practices!
What it does is put an even bigger target on your back!
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Not sure how long an agreement like that is, but to suggest only 4 could become such, would not sit well with the other clans. Even if they were weak, they would not just sit back and allow this to happen. If nothing else, they would be using the invasion as a cover for hitting them with trials of possession, if there wasn't an agreement to prevent that. And even then, I doubt it would stop it entirely.
…. and then we are expected to accept the idea that once the Falcons and the Wolves practically decimate each other Trials of absorption are not allowed as well as the Harvest Trials practically allow these two Clans to rebuild stronger than before ….… so that they may still proceed to become the first il-Clan.
What a complete load of ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/20 12:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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It said that the warriors tell the merchant caste what they want, and the merchants get them. Not sure where, but I want to say it was in the original clan books that focused on each invading clan. As I only have Falcon and Wolf, I believe it is in the Falcon one. I will have to check.
There were a few characters in the novels that was not as arrogant as the other warriors, but pacifist isn't the word. There were also a few that were more willing to prevent losses of the non warrior caste, and the wardens concept of protect the IS, but nothing that would really approach a humanitarian.
I suspect the invasion was not to remove the barbarians of the IS so much, but to show the other clans just who had the 'best' warriors, without starting a major session of trials, especially of possession. The more fights around factories, the most likely they will become damaged or even destroyed. Except for Clan Wolf, the others all fought it out, and had to rebuild. Which makes me wonder. How long did it take to rebuild, and where did they get the pilots? Normally you don't get moved up from the PGCs.
Did they have a mini harvest war before moving out to the IS?
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Requiem
02/02/20 04:25 PM
1.158.235.15
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Sarna.net wiki Clan Caste System
“The merchant caste's role in a Clan is the acquisition or manufacturing of all materials and goods necessary for their Clan's survival; within the merchant caste is a wide variety of occupations, including artisans, machinists, and free-traders …...Despite this and the essential role that the merchants play in their Clan's affairs, the warrior caste in most Clans treats the merchants with disdain and suspicion, or even outright hostility”.
Acquisition of materials … understandable;
Manufacturing of materials … requires additional information – what specialist manufacturing and into what and for whom?
Characteristics of a Clan Warrior
The characters within a novel must be tempered down lest they risk censure by the wider community when you know who their primary demographic are.
Operation Revival
Hidden Hope Doctrine ….“We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters”
Nicholas …. viewing it as a literal order to be followed, bordering on a divine revelation from his father.
The wardens – “saw the promise of return as an ideal to inspire the Clans to greatness rather than a literal command, that the Kerenskys meant the Clans to develop free of Inner Sphere ways while remaining ready to defend their lost home against any outside threat.”
The Crusaders – “took a literal view of the Hidden Hope, as a direct order to raise a new Star League from the ashes of Inner Sphere civilization with them at its head.”
With the invasion it is obvious the Crusader philosophy has won the argument with the aim of establishing a new Star League – their version of what a star league should be a Clan society.
This is where the Canon history really loses the plot and forgets the people behind the scenes as all they can think about is war and robots Vs. robots ….. the TRUE “twilight of the Clans” story arc is something far more important … a more meaningful story arc that espouses the reasons people go to war … not for power … but to ensure the freedoms we all hold dear to our hearts ….
This is where the role of the archivist and archaeologist would have been invaluable to the IS – if the Clans want a return to the Star League first they must understand what that means …. Collect all the documents from that era as well as all the remaining video files and give it to them via their merchant caste. What they will find is that the society they have created for them is a bastardization of everything the Star League stood for …. Even though the Star League was deeply flawed system (that was bound to destroy itself – self promoting prophecy).
The High Council – little more than a council meeting … and over time many backroom deals were forged.
Titles of Nobility – originally served as job titles (…to prevent the kind of Class stratification found in some of the realms) – however over time they became hereditary and rather than preventing Class stratification they formalized it for all time.
Nearly all of Bureaus of the Star League Affairs were established with the best of intentions however over time they all fell over due to their inbuilt flaws.
However, the Star league is also known for ….
its laws (siding with the rights of a planet’s people over the wishes of its leaders) – rather than using force diplomacy was the first action rather than undertaking military operations;
its art – freedom of expression;
its education policies (maintaining a first rate education system and providing free information to anyone with access to a computer or library;
its aim – promote peace and understanding between states and people – amicable trade relations between worlds and states;
People were free, well educated, with a high availability to medical and legal assistance.
So when comparing a Star League Citizen to that of a Clan Citizen the disparity between the two is stark.
Question: What would happen if the Clan Non-Warrior castes came know exactly what freedoms / advantages they had if they lived under the Star League in comparison to what was imposed upon them by both Alexander and Nicholas Kerensky’s Clans and his Warrior Caste ….?
The Perversion of the Star League ideals would be evident to even the least educated ….
How bitter the people would become, they were lied to by the warriors, the Clan system is clearly the polar opposite of what the Star League truly represented …
So what are they going to do … live under the tyranny of the Warrior Caste or are they going to return to the true values of the Star League … (Civil War!)
And how can this be done … every state should have their own repository of information / videos etc as a start …
However there is also “The Department (of education) also ran Prometheus Inc., a government-owned subsidy responsible for publishing books and managing almost a thousand libraries across the Star League. Putting out material designed to promote peace and understanding, Prometheus Inc. also ran a massive information database, accessible by anyone within their libraries or through a personal computer, which was located on Terra.”
Could there still be one (or more) of these libraries hidden within the IS? …. Could it be found by your unit? …. Could it then be returned to your House (Lyran for example) who could then provide it to Clan Diamond Shark / Clan Nova Cat / Clan Ghost Bear ….
Could we not see a reformation within these Clans? And then a war would ensure for the heart and soul of the Clans (as well as the personal liberties and freedoms of their non-warrior castes).
As for canon questions asked ….
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How long did it take to rebuild, and where did they get the pilots?
In reality you would assume a couple of years after acquisition – however to complete this task it will require bringing in laborers etc from Clan Space to get the job done correctly.
A point that was missed within all books ….
So utilizing IS workers – even longer.
But given TPTB fudging of the facts when it comes to the Clans – Overnight to bring it up to Clan Tech Standards.
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Did they have a mini harvest war before moving out to the IS?
No point, they didn’t need to – the Clans were debating the Invasion well before the Dragoons were sent to the IS – more than enough time to ramp up your True-born / Sibko training numbers so as to have an adequate Touman by the time they will invade the IS.
Plus at that stage the position of il-Clan would require a “pure” Clan to win it – only their genetics to prove they are the best Clan would do! Is the mentality they would be going through prior to the invasion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/02/20 04:30 PM)
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ghostrider
02/02/20 06:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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Most wars boil down to one side or both are greedy. Freedom can be the goal, but it tends to be on my terms school of thought.
Maybe looking at what happened right after the decision to invade was made.
The clans fought trials of position to determine who would go in, and where in the invasion corridor they would be at. According to the books, the fighting was fierce.
With this type of fighting going on, there had to be a semi large number of losses in machines and warriors. It is stated, they had to pause the invasion for the winning clans to rebuild. I doubt the factories on the clans worlds pumped out 30 mechs a month, and the warriors to fill them is the question. Where did they come from? New sibkos? Old units being promoted? Making clones? It doesn't really say.
First response would probably be from established units. Which is possible as the clans, as they don't list the entire clan forces available to them. Just the ones that invaded. Not that many PGCs reported in the invasion numbers.
But this might have issues with those in the 'better' units. Someone getting a second chance to prove themselves, while those current in, and still living didn't need a second chance. So the 'new' warriors coming in would be considered lesser warriors. That may well have caused chaos among some of the more tradition bound warriors.
And it has been established that the power of plenty is corruptive in societies that don't have alot of luxuries.
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Requiem
02/02/20 10:47 PM
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According to the books, the fighting was fierce.
Yes I can agree with this statement.
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With this type of fighting going on, there had to be a semi large number of losses in machines and warriors.
Yes I can also agree with this statement.
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It is stated, they had to pause the invasion for the winning clans to rebuild.
and here is where the wheels fall of the rails ….
If the two statements above are correct then both sides have suffered greatly in the previous battles in men and material ….
Thus the Clans are now in a worse situation than that of the IS
Men – Theirs are a Sibko trained military – replacement numbers are small in comparison to the IS and it will take them over 6 moths travel time for a reinforcements to arrive from Clan Space – if even one reinforcement ship is intercepted the front line Clan units will be in trouble.
Material – a logistical chain spanning over 6 months as well as consumables – unless you have many large depos already set up to keep the front line advancing there is going to trouble down the line.
This is why attacking the Clans rear is so vital – Military Intelligence / Wolf meeting at Outreach should have pointed this out!
Also the FC had over 260 Regiments – so reinforcements from the FC should not be an issue ….
Whereas with the Clans they had best temper the exuberance of their new reinforcements or they will have their mech shot out from under them in no time flat!
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he power of plenty is corruptive in societies that don't have allot of luxuries.
True ….
Psi-ops would have fun with regard to this …. Especially when you can prove to the lower castes that they were lied to by their “betters” with regards to what the true Star League stands for.
So, for the Clan Invasion we now have …
• Front Line forces on both sides;
• Garrison Forces Vs. Commando / Partisan Forces – including objective raids – intelligence Ops. And POW extraction ;
• Fenrir Forces fighting in the Periphery / Deep Periphery against Clan Logistics fleets and sites – as well as Warships (if deemed to be achievable);
• Archeologists looking for missing libraries …. Assigned by military intelligence / psi-ops for their future war plans …
• Big Wing Aerospace forces engaging Clan’s Warships;
• Looking to find Clan Diamond Shark – to relay information for the IS …
• Dark Nebula / Wolcott (and others)– holding Force and rear echelon fighting …
Missed any?
An envelopment strategy (The Battle of Cannae – large scale)? Sending a second army into the Clans rear – cutting off their logistics - opening a second front?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/20 11:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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Point that needs to be reminded. It wasn't two sides, but all the clans except Wolf fighting for a position in the invasion. So it wasn't a battle or two.
To be honest, there is a few more things that needed to be done. The development of the IS warships (Non Comstar) should have been done sooner, and included in the refusal strike on Huntress, if not sooner.
Trying to take warships from the clans or even jumpships, for data on their way into the IS. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how to get to the clans homeworlds with just their coordinates.
Along with this, the ships should also have the location of supply bases that could be hit with IFF codes from those very ships, allowing for even more surprise advantage. After a couple of hits on their supply lines, they would reinforce them with troops. Granted, where they get them from is questionable, without tapping into the reserve clan. Which would embarrass both the Jaguars and Falcons.
I would think those two might swallow some pride and allow a couple more clans to become involved, if for no other reason then garrison certain worlds as they push forward. Even supply routes would be 'perfect' for the additional clans to deal with.
Wolcott had it's own issues once the DC retained that world. Getting to and from the jump point. Which shows the issues with detection. The Black Rose group had seen the only way the clans figured out where they came in at, was chasing another set of dropships to the jumpship. There wasn't anything like the forces detected it, and with clan tech being so superior, would have been able to figure out pirate points for different days. Something that is over looked, as a simple satilite could cover those areas, and just signal something came it.
It might be a second front, for a while. The clans in the IS would have to turn back to deal with strikes on their lines, if those strikes could disrupt to completely blocking communications to the home world or incoming reinforcements. Double Entrenchment, I believe the term is. Once the clans started losing supplies, how long could they hold the worlds they got? Not sure. We know some tech is ONLY made in clan space. It is frustrating that the game doesn't say outright if things like IS endosteel or Ferrous armor is compatible with Clan made stuff. It would be kind of stupid if it did. Different critical spaces taken up by both.
For some models, even the use of IS double sinks wouldn't work. Not enough crits left in the units to do so. Same thing could be said about XL engines, but not as much.
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Requiem
02/03/20 02:24 AM
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I am describing the war within the IS Invasion Corridor, not the trials that got them there!
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The development of the IS warships (Non Comstar) should have been done sooner
Correct – the absence of warships leaves but one course of action – Atomic.
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It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how to get to the clans homeworlds with just their coordinates.
That is unless you purge your navi computer record of every bit of information every time you reach a certain Jump point, such as every Mobile HPG station that connects the IS with the Clan Home Worlds.
<Note: I would assume that if a HPG station is in danger of being captured there would be a dead man switch – to kill the station>
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ships should also have the location of supply bases that could be hit with IFF codes from those very ships, allowing for even more surprise advantage.
A limited number of bases for their individual clan as well as the main Logistics station – yes – but I doubt they would have all of them – and again in the event of capture the navi computer and all backup data will be wiped clean. So unless you can take it without anyone being aware you are even there I doubt you will find any relevant information.
Standard Protection upon all ships.
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After a couple of hits on their supply lines, they would reinforce them with troops.
Warships would be more probable.
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I would think those two might swallow some pride and allow a couple more clans to become involved, if for no other reason then garrison certain worlds as they push forward.
No, I believe the Clans would rather die than swallow their pride – if the problem has been Garrisons all along and the idea of PGC doesn’t work due to its size then this just leaves Clan Goliath Scorpion’s remedy (refer sarna.net wiki Clan Caste System) – The Garrison Caste as a possible solution.
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Even supply routes would be 'perfect' for the additional clans to deal with.
When you have a supply route that takes 6 months to reach you there will be problems – you need to predict what you need and in quantities – so how good are you at predicting what is required?
Point – The Clans believed they could just walk over any IS forces – so isn’t it reasonable to suggest they didn’t predict their supply parts for the first year (at a minimum) – and also their weapon’s consumables may have been under ordered!
So isn’t it reasonable to assume some of their units were “offline” during this period to allow for optimal use of resources that were still operational - as well as utilizing more energy weapon options.
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… Wolcott …
Yes I agree this was not thought through … but how many issues throughout the Clan Invasion was not thought out to the fullest.
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…. a second front ….
Having only one history with holes in it poses problems.
The idea of removing the clans supplies is an interesting hypothesis – and without information on the subject I am back to guessing what effect it may have and how serious it would be – how many resupply missions does each clan receive each year and when - how many ships must go missing and how long before it creates a severe impact upon the front line forces.
And yes I also agree it is frustrating with regards to utilizing Clan tech – However if Huntress had occurred correctly this would be a non issue – question: How many Commanding Officers (LA, CC and DC) who were sent to Huntress and returned with nothing to show (technology wise, when they had the opportunity to take a copy of the entire library) found themselves hanging by their ankles over a pit of snakes? My bet, all of them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/20 12:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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Interesting that atomics is the 'only' thing to counter warships. The first things suggested was the large aerofighter forces (without nukes). The lack of naval classed weapons is the issue. The missiles are nice, but limited in numbers that can be carried at one time. I really think that was done to avoid really challenging or destroying warships.
Even the location of one supply base would be enough to start getting into the network of them, for one clan. Hitting the base, might then give you an idea of where others are, and if you can hit them by surprise, mainly spec ops, you should be able to pull more data from them. And hitting isn't just going in, guns blazing. Simple stealth to gain the information, then take it with combat. One or more may well have things that would help indirectly. Schedules of when pick ups or drop offs will occur. Meaning taking out those jumpships and dropships, which may contain locations to other depots. It would not be hit one, and find the entire history and military positions of the entire clans.
It is also likely each clan knew a limited locations of other clans supply depots as well. To hit in the future, at least.
The issue with rather die is the key. You get weak enough, and the other clans will start hitting you with trials ending with absorbtions. That is probably the worst fate of a clan like the Falcons. To be remembered as nothing more then being beat by a lesser clan. You were talking about Marthe's solution. That isn't at all likely in the tradition bound clan.
Well the idea of the nations that had troops on Huntress brings up a very interesting set of questions.
As Comstar was part of those forces, they would have the tech expertise to take clan tech and make it without being so 'expensive'. As they did not, nor WOB did not, make use of it, there seems to be an issue. For both, building clan tech wouldn't be that big of a stretch.
Also. What happened to the Jaguars warships? They all didn't just explode once the Jaguars were beaten. Which clans got them? This would change some of the future battles in both the IS and the clans home worlds. From the sounds of it, they were forgotten. Setting up for a Jaguar comeback?
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Requiem
02/03/20 06:44 PM
1.158.235.15
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Interesting that atomics is the 'only' thing to counter warships. The first things suggested was the large aerofighter forces (without nukes).
Really? …. Please go back to the start of this discussion – Alt History Kurita’s response to Turtle Bay 01/29/2019 - …. plans for a ‘Kamikazie’ attacks upon clan warships / jumpships …. Given the targets conventional munitions would not be enough, the decision therefore is to use thermo-nuclear devices.
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limited in numbers that can be carried at one time. I really think that was done to avoid really challenging or destroying warships.
Nt. Larger fighters get 2 missiles - The anti-ship missile weighs 2 tons and takes 6 bomb slots
So if you use a vengeance carrier – 40 fighters – thus you could have a payload of 80 Nukes.
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Even the location of one supply base would be enough to start getting into the network of them, for one clan. Hitting the base, might then give you an idea of where others are, and if you can hit them by surprise, mainly spec ops, you should be able to pull more data from them.
So are my Fenrir forces now viable? – fighting the Clans within the Deep Periphery or is this just an IS Commando attack?
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You were talking about Marthe's solution. That isn't at all likely in the tradition bound clan.
The Marthe situation is the same as the CC situation – TPTB cannot bide the destruction of certain forces when they have been beaten down - in all reality Falcons and Wolves – absorption – CC – utter annihilation.
Not impressed!
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…. Task force Serpent ….
2nd Com Guard Division was Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht’s choice …..
The decision not to take Clan Tech back to the IS will haunt the IS for centuries to come … and is perhaps the most unrealistic plot ever put forward by TPTB.
The entire IS – ComStar included - was about to be technological level F – above that of even the Star League – so really it should not have been that hard for any of the IS Great Houses (and ComStar) to begin manufacturing Clan Tech especially when you could have transported entire factories back to the IS at the same time.
Lets call it what it is – it is TPTB restricting the IS access to Clan Tech and leveling the playing field, something they have never allowed and makes little to no sense.
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….Jaguar’s Warships ….
Refer sarna.net wiki - Clan Smoke Jaguar Touman
Obsidian – Destroyed - Mongoose
Veiled Huntress – DC captured – so heavily damaged – scuttled (DC)
Streaking Mist – SLDF isorla kept in orbit above Huntress – stolen by former Clan Smoke Jaguar’s
Unnamed Sovetskii Soyuz – Unkown
Korat – Destoyed by SLDF in Huntress system.
Osis’ Pride - acting as a mobile citadel for the surviving Smoke Jaguar warriors to venture out of as they raided Periphery worlds.
Queen Lynx - transported to the Terada yard at Dieron to be mothballed. (weapons removed?) (DC)
Lioness - transported to the Terada yard at Dieron to be mothballed. (weapons removed?) (DC)
Snow Leopard - crippled and not destroyed during the Battle of Luzerne. Assumed scuttled by the DC.
Firecrest - to the Terada yard at Dieron to be mothballed. (weapons removed?) however never arrived / fate unknown (DC?)
Hunter’s Pride – damaged during the raid on Luzerne in 3055 – fate unknown - may not be the Clan Jade Falcon WarShip of the same name,
Unknown Congress Class – Unknown
Griffin - destroyed around Matamoras
Storm Cat – destroyed
Sabre Cat - captured by the Draconis Combine, the Sabre Cat entered service with the Draconis Combine Admiralty (DC)
Dark Claw - recovered by the Draconis Combine mothballed over Dieron (DC)
The Iowa – information suggesting that it was destroyed between 3059 and 3060.
Unnamed Whirlwind Class – Unknown
Ripper - didn't survive the battle at Huntress.
Azov - destroyed at Huntress.
Simas Osis - reported destroyed in combat at Huntress
Unnamed Vincent Class – Unknown
Unnamed Vincent Class – Unknown
Hell Fury - Clan Cloud Cobra captured it from Clan Smoke Jaguar in 3053.
Unnamed Fredasa Class – Unknown
Unnamed Fredasa Class – Unknown
So 7 to the DC and 7 unknown.
Question, if technically the SLDF captured these ships then why did the DC get them?
The DC get a clan removed from their territory as well as all their captured warships as well – what a great deal for them – and what a load of BS for the other members of the SLDF.
However what is really worrying is the missing seven warships – who has them? / what was their fate? Also of interest is the fact that two vessels were taken by former Jaguar Warriors?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/03/20 06:48 PM)
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ghostrider
02/03/20 11:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a difference between a large scale sweep of the Periphery, and a few surgical strikes. Outside of the alt, the game keeps the numbers of ships limited.
For the alt, it should get away from canon, as it changes so much, there is nothing in common with it, other then names.
But I do have a question for you about the nukes.
Why limit the amount that can be carried, as you have changes the damage it does?
One nuke should wipe out a warship according to the way you make them sound.
Also, even a 50 ton fighter should be able to carry several bombs. Make it a bomber, not a fighter that is carrying bombs. Probably get 10 or more on it.
There is also an issue with clan tech being brought back to the IS.
First would be any equipment salvaged. Unless they are talking schematics.
Second off, the IS already has that tech. There are more then a few units running clan omnis. So the only thing the Huntress load would do, is give them a head start on reverse engineering the items. Maybe even removing the need to research it. So that whole bs line is completely busted.
Look at the ship list. The DC got 7 ships worth of clan tech. So they didn't even stay consistent with that.
Enough repair manuals would allow for quicker results to build the actual tech.
Did they purge everything off the ships? That would mean the ships couldn't move. Clan naval weapons are a good score in my opinion.
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Requiem
02/04/20 02:13 AM
1.158.235.15
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There is a difference between a large scale sweep of the Periphery, and a few surgical strikes.
Correct …. This is where gathering accurate and reliable information comes in so that can be analyzed to produce viable results …
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For the alt, it should get away from canon, as it changes so much, there is nothing in common with it, other then names.
Why? Improvements can be minor or major …. As stated previously, we are the dreamers and we have control over the dream … individuality should be allowed free reign.
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Why limit the amount that can be carried, as you have changes the damage it does?
80 is limiting the amount that can be carried?
Every warship will need a screening force to protect it in the future …. You thus need a minimum of one fighter to be able to break away and make a successful solo run against it ….
As for the damage …. I am just returning it to its correct lethality, the games version is little better than HE in comparison!
If you convert a fighter into a bomber and a missile into bomb how does this work in the vacuum of space - also when it explodes how will your fighter be out of range when the explosion travels at the speed of light!
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One nuke should wipe out a warship according to the way you make them sound.
Question – please explain how a warship survives a nuclear explosion (50Mt) who’s temperature reaches the interior of the sun about 100,000,000 Degrees Celsius and can be represented by a cube of 312 meters (1023 feet) on a side (approximately the height of the Eiffel Tower). - and remember, this doesn’t include the other radiation effects.
I would really like to know how this works …. As if a warship can take this amount of damage please explain how a Naval PPC can do little more than scratch the paint.
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There is also an issue with clan tech being brought back to the IS.
Everything that can be stuffed into a drop-ship will be stuffed into a drop-ship …. Entire factories (their equipment), schematics, and people ….
There may be a few units than are running Clans Omnis – so?
Where does this come into it when you can make as many as you want for your entire military?
Then just reverse engineer (research) the factory to produce multiple factories ….
So, quicker and more efficient use available technology …
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Did they purge everything off the ships? That would mean the ships couldn't move. Clan naval weapons are a good score in my opinion.
Why? Are you attempting to transfer them from a smaller class vessel to a larger class vessel? Right now they work – transferring them, who knows if they will ever work again …. Right now the vessel only needs a crew and you can put it on the front line …. Taking one of the weapons out you would have to scuttle the ship …. Plus is there anything in the rules that allow you do this? Or is this another TPTB fiat?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 11:37 AM
66.74.60.165
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First off, you have been calling the nukes bombs for most of the thread, so calling it out now is a bit pointless.
Second off, a bomber, like the B1B carries cruise missiles as well as nukes in today's world. Why would you need to use bombs in space? Simply add in more missile rack type of equipment for a 'bomber'.
Third off the explosion doesn't travel at the speed of light. It does move quickly, but not that fast.
Again. The game does not follow logic all the time. Since changing the damage done in the game, you change more then just that.
And you are in space. Deep space for the most part. It would be entirely stupid not to have some sort of radiation shielding on the sections people live and work in. Initially, the cockpit of a mech was to prevent radiation from a cracked fusion reactor from killing the pilot. They changed the fusion engine, but the cockpit remains the same. They do fight on and around radiation sources, so why a mech and not a space craft?
Read the context of sentences. Did they purge the ships was referring to the warships the DC got. That means the DC GOT CLAN TECH ON THE WARSHIPS. This alone gives them a head start on dealing with naval weapons, fire control, ecm and other things from warships. So the idea of not bringing back clan tech is violated with this one fact.
Sorry. It's the B2 bomber that carries the big missiles. I mistakenly says B1B.
Edited by ghostrider (02/04/20 01:39 PM)
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Requiem
02/04/20 04:46 PM
1.158.235.15
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And you are in space. Deep space for the most part. It would be entirely stupid not to have some sort of radiation shielding on the sections people live and work in.
Question – what happens to radiation shielding when exposed to a temperature reaching the interior of the sun, about 100,000,000 Degrees Celsius?
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Third off the explosion doesn't travel at the speed of light. It does move quickly, but not that fast.
When the blast wave is created, it travels at a speed around 300Km/s, which is 100 times faster than the speed of sound.
About 5% of the energy released in a nuclear burst forms ionizing radiation: neutrons, gamma rays, alpha particles and electrons moving at speeds up to the speed of light.
If the fighter is close to this when it explodes then it to will be gone!
So what happens to a ship when you put a 300m x 300m x 300m hole in it with a 50Kt warhead?
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So the idea of not bringing back clan tech is violated with this one fact.
Please read where they got the ships – Operation Bulldog.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 07:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you really need to suggest radiation would be a factor in that scenario? Nothing would survive the explosion. Which is why I hate a lot of games saying nukes are the worse of all weapons that can be used. Beginning weapons for the most part.
So you are suggesting that an explosion can propel matter faster then the speed of light? Something in this figure isn't correct.
And I thought all your fighters were Kamikaze. Why would it matter if they were caught in the explosion. And with this, why not go with bombs, as you crash the fighter into the ship. You don't need fuel or targeting and tracking items either. More room for the boom.
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Requiem
02/04/20 09:58 PM
1.158.235.15
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Yes, I agree, the game should never have allowed Nukes in the game … that said, unless they allow the IS to have their own Warships, prior to the Invasion, the only weapon they have when Warships have been used (Twice) is the Nuke.
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propel matter faster than the speed of light
A nuclear burst forms ionizing radiation: neutrons, gamma rays, alpha particles and electrons moving at speeds up to the speed of light.
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And I thought all your fighters were Kamikaze.
Kamikaze = DC Samurai (as per WW2)!
Missiles = FC
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More room for the boom.
50-150 Kt warhead dimensions – 31.4 inches (80 cm) by 11.8 inches (30 cm)
So, not that much room required.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/20 02:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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Radiation is not the same as the physical force of an explosion, which is what it sounded like when saying the explosion moves faster then light.
Why would suicide fighters only be for the DC, and with that, why would you want to waste your units, when they can do the job without dying? During WWII U.S. planes rammed their disabled fighters into the Japanese ships. This should not be the only tactic in a fight. Do what you can, and escape, unless damaged so badly, you won't make it back. Otherwise, you lose your soldiers for not good reason. And a full vengeance with all pilots doing the suicide run means 40 fighters gone as they would all be in the explosion radius, unless destroyed before getting there. Not a good use of your pilots or equipment.
The size of a missile warhead does not cause as much boom as a bomb does.
Hell just put a cockpit with some sensors on a frame and become a guided missile, if you really want to use suicide units. I can guarantee once you do, your soldiers will start deserting your command.
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Requiem
02/05/20 02:58 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Radiation is not the same as the physical force of an explosion, which is what it sounded like when saying the explosion moves faster than light.
Question:- what happens to an inorganic aero-space fighter and an organic pilot when they are exposed to a lethal dose or radiation? <when they were unable to outrun the explosion radiation wave>
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Why would suicide fighters only be for the DC
Do you see any Samurai within the F-C?
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During WWII U.S. planes rammed their disabled fighters into the Japanese ships
Proof please.
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And a full vengeance with all pilots doing the suicide run means 40 fighters gone as they would all be in the explosion radius, unless destroyed before getting there. Not a good use of your pilots or equipment.
Yes, logically this does not make sense from a Western perspective.
Please read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze
However, when you are discussing older equipment and older pilots who are willing to die for their Coordinator to ensure victory.
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The size of a missile warhead does not cause as much boom as a bomb does.
This is dependent upon the warheads explosive.
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Hell just put a cockpit with some sensors on a frame and become a guided missile, if you really want to use suicide units.
What is the radius of a ship based E.C.M. suite?
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I can guarantee once you do, your soldiers will start deserting your command.
They are volunteers. (please read the above wiki – Kamikaze)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/20 12:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not sure what the radiation limits are on a fighter, so really can't say. They do have some to deal with such issues.
Did you see any Samurai in the U.S. military as they were doing so in WWII? And I guess that means Myra was a samurai as she took her fighting into the Wolf ship. No one but samurai would take their own life by ramming into another unit. Misconception of the way of bushido? Others can't follow it be the samurai?
And kamikaze is not just for the Japanese warriors.
Logically it doesn't make sense at all for your first action is to die ramming an enemy unit. As said before, if this is your only tactic, then you should fill up your craft with explosives before you go out after them. And it is a waste of troops and equipment. Not saying honor bound warriors wouldn't consider it, but not as a first tactic.
Bombs can be made to any size. A warhead on a missile is normally smaller then a bomb. The one thing that may not be better is possible armor penetration. But then a piloted ship could well find weak points, such as cargo bay doors and ram them.
I would like to know what ship based ecm has to do with a cockpit attached to a missile frame so the pilot guides it into the target. Not reading it all? Skimming thru the posts is showing up as not comprehending things.
You are pushing for your warriors to commit suicide in their attacks, yet they are all volunteers? Will you be the one leading the charge? Or hiding several hundred light years in the bar at HQ?
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Requiem
02/05/20 06:29 PM
1.158.235.15
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They do have some to deal with such issues.
Open Cockpit?
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Did you see any Samurai in the U.S. military as they were doing so in WWII?
Nisei – 442nd Infantry Regimental Combat Team WW2 – Go For Broke!
Considered to be the most decorated infantry regiment in the history of the United States Army.
Eight Presidential Unit Citations; Twenty-One Medals of Honor Recipients
Refer – Go For Broke! (1951 film) directed by Robert Pirosh.
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And I guess that means Myra was a samurai as she took her fighting into the Wolf ship.
Myra? …..Tyra Miraborg …. On the final attack run her fighter was severely damaged … did she have control of the craft or was it locked on course with no hope of maneuvering it? ….. did she know the damage was so severe that no matter what she had only seconds left, so suicide was more preferable by spitting in the eye of your executioner as it was?
There is a massive difference here … Tyra never went out with the intention of dying for her realm hers was suicide …. Samurai (Kamikaze) however do go out into the void with the intention of dying for their Coordinator and their Realm!
So in this case she can-not be considered to be Kamikaze.
I implore you again – please, read the google wiki on Kamikaze.
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Logically it doesn't make sense at all for your first action is to die ramming an enemy unit.
As stated previously – for the most part western logic doesn’t come into it! … the only thing that does is Martyrdom.
Question: Assumption - You are a General within the DCMS – Turtle Bay has just occurred in which the Coodinator’s son was successfully saved - and you have just now been called before the Cooradinator (and his father) to table a report upon an appropriate response ….
Target: Clan Warships.
What are you going say to them?
<you do not have any warships and Drop-ships are just massive targets that can be swatted from the ‘sky’ with impunity (and even if you did go down this path you are not allowed to retrofit them with Naval Weapons)>
So, what are the options you present to them?
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Not saying honor bound warriors wouldn't consider it, but not as a first tactic.
And what about the zealots within the DCMS?
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Bombs can be made to any size. A warhead on a missile is normally smaller then a bomb. The one thing that may not be better is possible armor penetration.
Errrr…nuclear warhead ….. why do you need armor penetration?
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I would like to know what ship based ecm has to do with a cockpit attached to a missile frame so the pilot guides it into the target. Not reading it all? Skimming thru the posts is showing up as not comprehending things.
Please make reference to the original quote:-
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Reference Ghostrider Post 02/05/20 02:07AM “Hell just put a cockpit with some sensors on a frame and become a guided missile, if you really want to use suicide units.”
A sensor “guided missile” does not equate to a “…. cockpit attached to a missile frame so the pilot guides it”!
So, what happens to sensors when it hits an ECM field? Do the sensors stop working causing the missile to veer off it trajectory, thus keeping the ship safe?
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You are pushing for your warriors to commit suicide in their attacks, yet they are all volunteers?
I implore you again – please, read the google wiki on Kamikaze.
Yes they are Volunteers.
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Will you be the one leading the charge? Or hiding several hundred light years in the bar at HQ?
First, I am not a Samurai and I do not, and have never, fought for the DCMS.
Second, if my character was a zealot Samurai within the DCMS – and being an aerospace pilot – yes, I would seriously consider volunteering my character.
Also – the DCMS don’t have a bar par say – drinking is an obligation, look into nomikai and izakaya etc. ….
The Japanese Salaryman - http://www.worldhum.com/features/how-to/how-to-drink-like-a-japanese-salaryman-20101118/
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/20 10:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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Why bother using an expensive fighter, when something like a shuttle would do the job, and pack more ordinance?
Make a specially built one that has a fast move, and just enough armor to survive until you hit the ship.
And Samurais do NOT go out intending on dying for the hell of it. They will face overwhelming odds, but don't go, 'well. I am going to kill myself today.' And if you order them do just go and die, you will lose their loyalty.
By your idea of martyrdom, that would mean all land forces would just rush the enemy and explode bombs as they got in contact with them. Why restrict it to space?
I said strap a cockpit on what is basically a guided missile, and your response was how would that work with a warships ecm being used. Not sure how that was misunderstood.
Wow. A cockpit should imply a human piloting it. Hence the pilot rides the missile in, being the guidance system. The sensors is only to make sure you know your target. You don't want to find out the hard way, you got turned around and hit your own ships. That is a guided missile here. Human riding it in.
Consider volunteering. All pilots are volunteers. Not sure how that would fill up a Vengeance carrier full of suicide fighters, as I don't really think anyone volunteers for such a duty before hand. They seem to be spur of the moment, as they realize all is lost, and have nothing left to lose.
And wikis are the same thing as some news casts. They got modified by those that have no idea of what they are talking about and edited to slant information to the way the writer wants it. The U.S. had suicide runs on Japanese ships before the Japanese started doing it in WWII. Propaganda? I can say the same thing about who said otherwise. Welding a pilot into a plane, and having that pilot rescued saying they had no choice does not sound like a volunteer.
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Requiem
08/12/22 03:46 AM
1.147.88.67
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Whilst Katrina Steiner was on the run with Arthur Luvon and Morgan Kell, as the Red Corsair, they rediscovered the K-series transmitter (The Black Box). Apparently they were in the Periphery when they would discover the lostech under ‘undisclosed circumstances’ at an undisclosed location.
This beggars the question as to when Katrina becomes Archon – wouldn’t she dispatch a unit to undertake a detailed excavation of the site in order to determine if there is any additional lostech hidden there?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Pht
08/15/22 07:01 PM
98.20.185.65
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Um:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_HOLY_SHROUD
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Requiem
08/15/22 11:42 PM
1.147.88.67
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Can you please explain how a lost Star League Defence Force Facility, that was never found during the time of Operation Holy Shroud (way in the past), and was discovered by Katrina et al – stopped an expeditionary group being sent to investigate the facility or became aware of the facility and raced them to the base – then conducted their own dig and were able to leave with no trace of them being there to start with?
Just remember in doing any dig you are going to disrupt the soil strata levels that form over time – so even if ComStar did perform the dig first any archaeologist will know instantly that the site has been excavated recently.
Also if Katrina was proactive about this dig – what is the chance ComStar was fond there performing the dig if they ran ahead?
And again – please explain how ComStar was able to remove all knowledge from all home libraries (especially intellectuals), schools and Universities on every world, Businesses (own training facilities), Military Academies on every developed world etc ….
Sorry but this is an impossibility … Also how many sites are buried and contain lost treasures (As Snord proved that there are still many out there!) hat ComStar never found.
Also every country has its own “Congressional library” so can anyone explain how these libraries on every Capitol world were destroyed?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 10:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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No one said Katrina dug up an entire campus. It is more likely that as they were looking for shelter, they found a way into some ruins, where they discovered the black boxes. It is very possible that they were in an old vault that was partially destroyed. It is also possible nothing else of value remained, which is why they never went back.
Given the destruction of the 1st and 2nd wars, and the fact that even today, most documents are being done on computer hard drives, this is what happened in the future. Sensitive information is normally kept in very specific, and tight security locations, meaning you public library is not going to have access to that information.
Funny thing about Snord. He did NOT just find the locations, He was proved them from the clan archives. That was part of the Dragoons mission, Find and secure the SL bases. So he did not prove anything.
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Requiem
08/16/22 06:01 PM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
It is very possible that they were in an old vault that was partially destroyed. It is also possible nothing else of value remained, which is why they never went back.
How can anyone say that ‘nothing else of value remained’ without conducting an extensive dig to determine the veracity of the statement?
Consider the size of most Castle Brian’s https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castle_Brian
If all was found was one section there is a vast additional amount to search.
The unknown needs to be investigated – if Black boxes remain who knows what else there is to find.
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Sensitive information is normally kept in very specific, and tight security locations, meaning you public library is not going to have access to that information.
And what of the textbook used to educate a university student – as apparently all of these are missing and at the same time from every world within the IS – and this information is the foundation upon which all sensitive information has been derived!.
Also isn’t sensitive information usually held in sensitive vaults and upon highly secured worlds – and their location are known only to the Government. So are you saying that the map to all these sensitive sites was lost and no one went looking to find them over the past few centuries?
Also shouldn’t there be a master copy of this information upon every capitol world - within a secure vault – and again known only to the Government of the Day – so again how did they all loose this information at exactly the same time?
Sorry but once more reality and common sense have lost the plot.
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He did NOT just find the locations, He was proved them from the clan archives.
And what of the House Archives? Wouldn’t they also have locations of cities – also consider what was found – artwork, jewellery etc How are the Clan Archives so specific?
Wouldn’t a House maintain their own national library of congress that contains detailed papers from their worlds as what is happening – that could also then be used to find lost artifacts?
The answer is yes – so what his proves is that Snord used his copies to find artifacts – so why can’t the Houses use the same technique? – use their documents from the past to find lost artifacts also?
The answer is yes, they can use the same technique – so if they can then why not as who knows what they may find?
Also this makes for the basis of an excellent game within the IS setting.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 07:02 PM
45.51.181.83
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It may well be the facility was picked over and the only reason the vault was left was it being uncovered by a land slide. Or it was the only thing left of the complex, after being wiped off the face of the world. It could well have been picked clean during the 1st war, and no one knew the fax machines were anything more then fax machines.
And it may have been nothing more then a warehouse that had them stashed in, not a full complex. Not everything is stored in the huge complexes. A small research station could suffice in the location of them as well.
Student text books that have top secret information in them, is NOT going to be put in a public library or even school. They would be kept for private schools, which might explain why a lot of tech was lost. One place of higher education might be the only place to learn how to make the ERPPC, or the XL fusion engines. And those would be kept to specific worlds as well, as those that have that tech are NOT going to be handing it out to everyone asking for it.
Once the tech starts being targeted, it makes those that have it even more unlikely to share it with others.
Out of all the raids and such done during the wars, even Defiance has had a few successful commando style raids hit it. Also, the description says some of the building lines were destroyed in different battles. That could well mean the areas this information was stored at.
You really asked: And what of the House Archives?
What good is having secret SL bases if the house archives had them in there? Do you think this is not the first place that would be attacked by multitudes of viruses and burning to remove any information they might have? Why didn't the houses know of Comstar's hidden worlds? And yet the constant bombarding of having secret bases comes from the same person who has to ask this? And does this mean they have the locations of those built in other nations?
Think before responding.
Again, so you understand the question and responce.
What good is having secret SL bases if the house archives had them in there?
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Requiem
08/16/22 09:36 PM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
It could well have been …
And yet no one will know unless an expedition is sent to undertake a complete and thorough excavation.
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Student text books that have top secret information in them …
And now we have left the realm of reality …
University books are the foundation of knowledge from which students become engineers and scientists etc. – and from which their future R&D will once more unlock knowledge that was lost …
Or isn’t the concept of education a factor any more?
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What good is having secret SL bases if the house archives had them in there?
You do realise that this does not make any sense whatsoever?
What is the point of housing Secret HOUSE documents within an SL facility? They would be stored in secret HOUSE facilities upon their key worlds – including their capitol world.
Also wouldn’t these facilities be within Tesla Cages and also air-gapped?
So no virus …
Also where is the information that every capitol world was obliterated during the succession wars thus making these archive facilities destroyed beyond recovery?
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Why didn't the houses know of Comstar's hidden worlds?
And at the same time why didn’t ComStar know of all the Houses hidden worlds – be realistic if ComStar can have hidden worlds then it is a given that the IS Houses would also have their own at the same time – especially when you consider the idea of warship production within secret shipyards or secret Mech facilities …
RWR and Amaris got away with it for decades so why not all the other Houses?
So again Think before responding, so that you understand the question and response!
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What good is having secret SL bases if the house archives had them in there?
Really? So has America transferred all their secret documents to NATO HQ for safe keeping lately – as this is what is being suggested here!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 10:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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Do you know the difference between SL locations and unknown locations?
It is so simple, even someone looking for gotcha questions can figure it out.
Known locations have been raided already. Like has been done since the SLDF left the IS.
The unknown locations are those still holding items and secrets.
And yet with all the supposed great information coming out, the concept that the base was already raided, or found by someone else and couldn't get back to finish looting it all, is a valid concept? The 'base' may well have been a crashed or abandoned ship as well. Oh, but since the great writer didn't think of it, therefore it can't be possible.
So reality is left out? When you suggest that top secret information is found in universities and such, then you are correct. Reality is gone from your responses anymore. The more you post, the more wild the responses are, and get further from reality.
Case in point....
What is the point of housing Secret HOUSE documents within an SL facility? They would be stored in secret HOUSE facilities upon their key worlds – including their capitol world.
This can in response to What good is having secret SL bases if the house archives had them in there?
The capital world of the SL is Terra. Imagine trying to explain why the houses have not searched Terra for all of the SLDF secrets located there. Reality here?
Do you honestly think those KNOWN SL bases weren't raided, or destroyed in the 1st war? That the houses that got the worlds from the TH didn't scour them?
Viruses can be put into a system directly, meaning say ROM agents destroying the data so no one else could get them. And they may well have ways to contact them. Special frequencies and codes to activate the systems come to mind. Windows can be turned on remotely, meaning your PC can be used by someone you don't know.
Because the other houses were being watched closely? Because the inspectors didn't ignore unauthorized building of things like warship facilities? The fact that most of the other houses were keeping things above the board for the most part?
And the BIG answer to why the RWR got away with it, is because that is how the STORY WAS SUPPOSED TO GO.
Without this plot armor, the RWR would have been destroyed and the Amaris war would not have happened.
Comstar's hidden worlds were not hidden, so much as erased from nav computers. The houses knew they existed, but didn't know they were not glowing balls of space dust. Since the system was not inhabited, no one would travel thru them unless absolutely necessary, and even then, would not try to explore anything. It is also possible that any jumpship that did end up there was blown apart by Comstar to keep the system quiet. But again, the lack of thought shows thru.
Do you bother actually reading anything? I mean actually comprehend what is being said, and not your made up fantasy of what is there? Too many gotcha tries and still showing that the only thing you can do is try to start arguments.
What good is having secret SL bases if the house archives had them in there?
Really? So has America transferred all their secret documents to NATO HQ for safe keeping lately – as this is what is being suggested here!
Losing grip on reality? How is asking what good is having a secret base if everyone knows exactly were it is at, come even close to transferring all the secret documents to other nations?
It should be so very obvious that having secrets in an unknown base that everyone knows about is beyond stupid. Now just because you keep suggesting that secret information should be spread around to every city on every world to prevent the loss of it, shows why you don't comprehend that.
Just realized you don't understand why you would put some sensors on a unit with a cockpit in order for the pilot to guide it into the enemy. Maybe because when you launch at several thousand KM, you need something to show you where to fly to, especially if the target moves.
This is also important when there are other targets around, and you are looking for a specific one. This is not on remote control, but the pilot flying the explosive ladened missile, so ecm would not prevent them from seeing what is there. Part of why a pilot is being used.
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Requiem
08/17/22 01:46 AM
1.147.88.67
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No, do you know the difference between SL locations and unknown locations? … Known locations have been raided already.
And locations containing artifacts that have yet to be looted – are unknown locations – and yet when Katrina Steiner, Arthur Luvon and Morgen Kell find the location it suddenly becomes known to the ‘Red Corsair’ only - so when she sends an expeditionary force to excavate the site all unknown artifacts become the property of the LA.
Is this too difficult to understand?
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When you suggest that top secret information is found in universities
“University books are the foundation of knowledge from which students become engineers and scientists etc. – and from which their future R&D will once more unlock knowledge that was lost …”
Comprehension of the English language … can you please point out where the concept “top secret information” is contained within this statement.
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Imagine trying to explain why the houses have not searched Terra for all of the SLDF secrets located there.
Could it be due to the fact that during the Amaris Kerensky War the majority of the Star League military facilities became combat zones – and then Kerensky took control of the Terran Systems with the entire might of the remaining SLDF – and then the world was transferred to Blake, who now controls all HPGs within the IS – thus turning Terra into a persona-non-grate zone for all other Houses’ forces during this entire time frame …
Is this too difficult to understand also? …
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Viruses can be put into a system directly, meaning say ROM agents destroying the data
“within Tesla Cages and also air-gapped”
Essentially computer viruses cannot get to the information as it is on a stand-alone-system …. And a Faraday cage shields an enclosure form all electromagnetic fields – so no “special frequencies” … also how does a special frequency reach into a hidden bunker?
Sorry, this may have been too technical.
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the BIG answer to why the RWR got away with it, is because that is how the STORY WAS SUPPOSED TO GO.
So no one else is allowed to go into an unknown system or off the track because they do not have permission from TPTB – even when this is a what if / Alt. Universe setting? …
Can you please explain how someone gets this permission – do we need this also IRL or do we have free will?
Thus the idea of maintaining an exploration jump-ship in the future becomes an obsolete concept because you need TPTB’s permission before you can start?
So do I need TPTBs approval for everything else I want to do in the game?
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Now just because you keep suggesting that secret information should be spread around to every city on every world to prevent the loss of it, shows why you don't comprehend that.
The official NATO HQ is known – can you say for certainty where the war room is located?
Also can you please show where I wrote this? as the above statement was “Also where is the information that every capitol world was obliterated during the succession wars thus making these archive facilities destroyed beyond recovery?”
So for the Lyran Commonwealth – Tharkad – and their congressional library – how was this destroyed and when was it destroyed and wo destroyed it?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/22 02:32 AM
45.51.181.83
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You complained that Katrina never sent someone to the site to excavate it. So how did it become: so when she sends an expeditionary force to excavate the site all unknown artifacts become the property of the LA.
It is difficult to understand how you complain something never happened, yet say it happens in the next post.
The original statement that you cut out the last half of: Student text books that have top secret information in them, is NOT going to be put in a public library or even school.
Your statement after leaving out half of mine: And now we have left the realm of reality …
University books are the foundation of knowledge from which students become engineers and scientists etc. – and from which their future R&D will once more unlock knowledge that was lost …
Or isn’t the concept of education a factor any more?
This is where it is suggested that top secret information is stored at public schools. This is on top of the suggestion that all tech be available to every city on every world, and anyone could gain access to it. But you forgot you wrote that as well.
I guess most of the questions posted for you to respond it beyond your understanding.
Your statement: They would be stored in secret HOUSE facilities upon their key worlds – including their capitol world.
Can you understand that the capital world of the SL/TH was Terra? So when did the IS get to search that world for some catalog that was probably erased when the SLDF left the IS? Anyone would have already figured out that if the catalog existed, Comstar would have gotten to every single one listed there. Understand this now? Or do I have to type even slower for you?
also how does a special frequency reach into a hidden bunker?
Really showing how stupid the responses are getting with that one.
There are devices as well as containers that are shielded from gauss coils and such so you can get data past them. Also, shutting off the power and sending a signal thru works as well.
The initial post was asking for canon reasons on why things didn't/did happen. When did this become the alt crap? Well normally when you don't have a leg to stand on is normally the start of it.
The constant saying that the lost tech should have been on every world from multiple threads is where to start. Basically, the concept of that tech could not be lost as every world should have and build it come to mind? Or do you have a problem that you don't bother remembering what you wrote, or go back to reread your own garbage? Every world is an island is the current form of that.
And yet the tech you think should be on every world was owned by the TH/SL, not the houses. SO why would they have that tech in their possession?
Wait, that requires thinking before spouting off on things.
Now back to the alt crap. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
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Requiem
08/17/22 03:12 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
It is difficult to understand how you complain something never happened, yet say it happens in the next post.
When – referring to time or circumstance … when will we send the expeditionary group …. Ans. ?
Trying to argue semantics is a fruitless endeavour.
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Ghostrider post 08/16/22 07:02 PM
Student text books that have top secret information in them, is NOT going to be put in a public library or even school.
This is where it is suggested that top secret information is stored at public schools.
Yes, in your statement – not mine, you made the assumption where as mine was based on the foundation of knowledge.
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This is on top of the suggestion that all tech be available to every city on every world, and anyone could gain access to it. But you forgot you wrote that as well.
Where is this written - anyone could gain access? Or is this just another assumption?
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They would be stored in secret HOUSE facilities upon their key worlds – including their capitol world.
I see comprehension of the English language issue …
“Stored in secret house facilities upon their key worlds”
“Their” in this case refers to the house in question (LA), it does not refer to the SL or the TH specifically …
If you want it to refer to either of these then it should be re-written to
“stored in secret house facilities located within the SL’s TH …”
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There are devices as well as containers that are shielded from gauss coils and such so you can get data past them
Through a Faraday Cage? Within a high security facility?
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shutting off the power and sending a signal thru works as well
Can you please explain how an electronic device responds to a signal when the power has been turned off first – so does this mean my TV will respond to the remote when there is a blackout and there is no power?
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The initial post was asking for canon reasons on why things didn't/did happen.
Since when has what if / Alt Universe been excluded from this forum? The title of this Forum is House Archeology Units - by this title alone this states in bold that the forum is discussing an Alt. Universe / What if scenario as canon never included this!
still too difficult?
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The constant saying that the lost tech should have been on every world from multiple threads is where to start. Basically, the concept of that tech could not be lost as every world should have and build it come to mind?
Then go on prove how every piece of information on every world contained within every hard book or database was destroyed so that the IS ended in the mess it is – including House Capital Worlds.
Also every world is an island!
And if a single House lord does begin the proliferation of knowledge and businesses throughout their realm within a short period of time that realm will supersede all others.
Or is this concept - of existing international business - too difficult to understand?
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and yet the tech you think should be on every world was owned by the TH/SL
Really? – BattleMechs, Aerospace Fighters, Warships, Jumpships, Drop Ships all owned and built by the TH only? As well as all the tech that went with them to manufacture these military industrial vehicles.
So do please elucidate, what tech did the Houses have if they didn’t have access to these noted above?
And yet canon says they are obtained this information - so is canon no longer telling the truth about this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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