Requiem
05/29/19 02:31 AM
1.158.130.13
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Getting back on topic ….
Yes, I agree that the FC and the DC were now the sole targets of the Clans and the game developers should have allowed the clans to expand outwards rather than just sitting in their invasion corridor. Thus allowing for some of these Clans to find a new invasion corridor separate from their competitors … and to keep their Talons sharp as the Falcons would express it.
So the question must be asked why were there no specialised units formed specifically to combat the clans – if the IS could make Clan Weapons why didn’t they? Cost be dammed if you could have the entire Sword of Light outfitted (100%) with clan weapons weapons I cannot think of a reason why the DC wold not have established these “new” units, and the same goes for the FC.
Also when he Refusal War was coming to its end why didn’t the FC attack? Thus one of the periods of IS advantage was lost to the IS – if only they had attacked the Falcons – one of the great what if was lost?
And I am in agreement the story had become lost – more time should have been taken, such as an additional six- twelve months to script out the Clans invasion more comprehensively before its launch – and also during the invasion to reach Tukayyid – and then onto Huntress to complete the story arc – the entire story arc was just way too rushed to be published, a lot more care and time should have been utilized to ensure the quality of the product (thus more stories / game books could have been produced.
For example the ones I hypothesised ….
- Running a hunker group in the deep periphery against clan forward supply bases and fleets;
- Camelot Command – the FC Wolcott base of operations within the Falcon’s OZ;
- Expanding the Partisan activity within the Clans OZ;
- Introduce the concept of a Space Navy War to the game;
- Expanding the idea of Clan deserters etc (closed society Vs. open society) with regards to the human psyche; and I am sure there are many other ideas that others have come up with ……
However I disagree that the Clans could move throughout the IS with impunity (and end up with that of the situation as seen in the canon 3150 history) – by the end of the 15 years – as they are not allowed to increase their numbers due to the original bid the IS would pretty much expel them all from the IS – Total War / mass production by utilizing all of their manufactories / equal technology as the IS is now on par with the Clans as to weapon technology - and for the past 15 years conscription would expand all house units to the point they would be expelled.
What should have then happened, in my opinion, is a new border between the IS and the Clans somewhere within the Deep Periphery – and over time new states within the Deep Periphery could have eventuated – Mass Naval engagements throughout the entire space between the IS and that of Clan Space – new worlds would have been populated – new bases formed – new space stations formed – mass raids upon the IS by Clan forces – mass raids on Clan Space by IS forces – and then the politicking behind the scenes in both the IS and the Clan Space.
I am completely at odds with the entire story line from 3039 on-wards – it needs a radical rewrite!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
05/30/19 12:15 AM
45.43.104.179
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Don't forget the Rashalhagians becoming doves either. They spent 600 years itching for independence under the thumb of the Draconis Combine, they finally get it and less than 30 years later, they're happily working with their new Ghost Bear overlords. I could see opinion changing over several generations, but the same generation can't be fighting tooth and nail for independence and then just not. I can buy that the inhabitants of planets in the former Tamar Pact or Alshain Military Districts overrun by the Clans could be too demoralized to fight back, but the Rashalhagians should have been fighting a guerrilla war against Clan occupation for decades, if not centuries. This is something else that happened way too fast based on other established canon. It seems done entirely for the benefit of advancing the Ghost Bears story and introducing a power vacuum in the Clan homeworlds with two of the original Clans weakened and two more out of the picture. Earlier canon suggests the Bears would have had an easier time settling in the near periphery or carving a chuck out of someone else's territory to colonize (the Wolves should have been an easy target - the Horses eventually gobbled up a number of worlds, but the Bears did little to take advantage of the Refusal War boundary)
I still think the Clans moved unrealistically fast in the 3048-3052 years (especially with a year and half off in the middle) but accept it. Its what happens after Tukayyid that spoiled it for me. I got out of BattleTech for many years because it just got stupid and inconsistent as the 3050s progressed. If you want to plant your flag at 3038 or 3039 as the last good year of canon, that's fine - I'll put mine around 3052-3056.
As far as the Clans moving with impunity after the 15 year truce ended, why not? Canon shows they absolutely DID, and did so TWICE. In two a half years between 3048-3052 four of them got about halfway from the edge of known space to Terra. In the Dark Age, Clan Wolf gobbles up 99 entirely different worlds along yet another fortified border. I don't know what that 15 year truce was supposed to prove. I think Focht needed to bargain for much more; if the Inner Sphere did nothing but recover their forces to about where they were in 3049 or 3050, then the invading Clans probably finish the job in under 5 years after the truce elapses and one of them claims Terra by the early 3070s. Whether it makes good fiction to claim such rapid advance was possible isn't the point I was arguing - its the fact that canon established in two different times and places that they could have, and therefore should have if events like the Refusal War and Operation Bulldog weren't written to stop it.
As far as Clans not able to increase numbers, there's two sides to this coin. I seem to recall reading that the number of Clans to be involved was set at seven, based on the result of Clan Wolf's Trial of Refusal over the Go-No Go vote (for which they are initially outnumbered 16 to 1.) They did well enough in Trial to reduce the number of invading clans from 17 to just 7. But as we see through the Harvest Trials, there was a way around this limit to restock the invading Clan's forces. It seems possible that if things got dicey and the IS powers started to push the Clans back out of the Inner Sphere, the stronger clans could just make a bid to entirely absorb the weaker clans outright as a means to replenish. A Total War scenario could mean the Inner Sphere has to face three or four times the strength of the invading Clans that they actually witnessed. Even if you give the Inner Sphere powers 12-14 years to prepare, that seems like a tall order.
And even by 3150, the Inner Sphere couldn't easily replicate Clan-level technology or obtain enough of it through salvage and Diamond Shark deals to meet demand. When they can, its 5 or 10 times as expensive and only used in limited numbers or on experimental units. You can't equip entire regiments with that stuff - its neither cost effective nor good strategy to put that many eggs into one basket. It thus gets spread around a little more evenly - commander's units or lance and company sized strike teams. Though I can't quite understand how the Clans managed to invent all their advanced tech in the course of 15-20 years (2823-2840 for most of it) and the IS couldn't duplicate it over the course of eight or nine decades. IS should have been pumping out Clan-quality tech well before the turn of the century and refitting a great number of their front-line units with the stuff well before Grey Monday. I suppose the Jihad slowed down advancement a bit, but it just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like an artificial way to ensure Clantech is just as rare and valuable in the Dark Age as it was during the Invasion, Civil War, and Jihad eras. I wasn't against the idea of the Dark Age, but was after the details of the Jihad became clearer and the realization that it wasn't quite as disruptive to military industry as I was led to believe. (I was thinking far worse than First Succession War level of destruction, and its actually not even a quarter that bad.)
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ghostrider
05/30/19 01:35 AM
66.74.60.165
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The end of the refusal war is an issue. The canon says the FC was worried that if they did attack, they would be seen as weak to the clans and not given the Batchall option.
Now. The fourth war should have caused issues, or right after it, as the FWL border in the LC would have been furious to lose worlds to Marik, and even more when they were reorganized into the defense zones the FS uses. The DC border would be happy, as they were after the combine. But I didn't see much political pressure about the FWL border. So there was a logic fart.
Now Rashalhague. It is possible the ghost bear administrators did enough to keep the main populace happy on some worlds. Maybe bringing in the civillians from the home worlds may have struck a sympathetic cord with the FRR populace. Both seemed to be oppressed by others. Freeborn vrs trueborn mainly. Though failed warriors may well help add to that pressure.
But the struggles could, or maybe should, have had more push to it. Then again, they may have realized, the Ghost Bears were better then the Jaguars.
The Bears and wolves were 'on the same side' so to speak. They were neutral to friendly with each other, and used that to garrison their borders with the Jaguars/Falcons. It also was a big help to allow the Wolves to race ahead of the others. Convenient story line.
As for the IS making clan tech, the first units would be extremely pricey, but once you start getting numbers out, or even made at a military base, where alls you paid for was materials, everything else was done by your engineers, it would come down. And it is interesting that nothing is said about any materials left over by the Minnesota tribe. They had to have had damage, and possibly lost limb/mechs.
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Requiem
05/30/19 07:10 AM
1.158.130.13
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Wick, I agree with you the issue of Rasalhague finally throwing off the yoke of the DC to finally become part of the Bears is not believable when you consider it was the same generation that ensured their freedom to only give in.
Is this another example of the game developers not thinking things through?
Where was the partisan forces battling for their freedom once more?
The only reason as to why the Federated Commonwealth became such an easy target for everyone in the culmination of their Civil War followed by the Jihad – the game developers determined that the the LA and the FS were both unable to rebuild the forces.
However, for my scenario during the 15 years of “peace” all of the IS are rebuilding and establishing new units with new Onmi weapon systems + conscription / Total War armaments programs + as the CC no longer exits (is part of the FC) their armaments industries are also bent towards the re-armament strategy etc. This alone would ensure the Clans adventurism within the IS is slowly minimised and over time pushed back due to numbers alone (attrition warfare).
As for expanding the size of each Clan through so called “garrison” units – sorry but no, each clan agreed before the Invasion as to the units they were allowed to use, and if they go back on this and demand more in the future I would have assumed that the Home Clans would say the original bid had been made null and void and as such they are now allowed to invade also.
So as an invader Clan what do you do, keep the number you have and adopt a stiletto approach to the invasion or break the bid and allow all the clans to invade?
As for the Falcon / Wolf Fracas – I concede you are correct – both the FC / LA and the Bears should have invaded towards the end of this war within a few weeks of each other – both the Falcons and the Wolves are weak and should be invaded / destroyed by those on either side of their borders or by the Horses / Other ?.
So the Falcons become bondsman of the FC and the remaining Wolves within the Invasion Corridor fight bravely but finally succumb to the Bears / Horses / Other? – where also some of the former Wolves are taken by the Bears.
So, we just have two different perspectives as to the invasion and what should / should not have occurred.
For me the idea that by 3150 the IS could not replicate clan weapon systems – this again shows the stupidity of the thought process that went into the canon game.
You have two and a half Clans joining the Star League for all intense and purposes – their techs should have assisted the entire IS with retrofitting to Clan Tech standards; and
Huntress – this is criminal folly on the part of the game developers – everything not nailed down (plus many Clan civilians) should have been sent back to the IS to advance the new SLDF into an age of Clan tech.
So no, I do not believe the Clans could have progresses as far as that of the BS Canon story.
To me it just does not make sense – by 3075 we should be looking at starting a war between the Clan and the new SLDF within the deep periphery (as they should have been kicked out of the IS by now) – at this stage the invading Clans can call in reinforcements – as for the home Clans getting involved I would assume that the invading clans would still attempt to keep them out of the War.
However, as time progresses (3090 approx.) and if a Clan or two fall to the new SLDF I would allow the Clans to undergo a new trial to determine those who can join the war and those that remain in the Clan Home Worlds.
I would also have the new SLDF to be on parity (in size) with all the clans by 3090 – I would also have many fronts to the war spread throughout the space between the IS and Clan Space.
Thus what I am looking at is a new 100 year war between that of the Clans and the IS – not only a ‘Mech War but also a Navy War.
As for the issue of the Jihad etc – I just completely disregard this history – however as for the WoB weapons and medical advancements (as to warriors) I would allow this into the SLDF.
The idea of fully transformable fighters to “mechs as raiders would be intense – especially when you jump into a pirate point above Strana Mechty and decimate the Hall of Khans (sometime in 3100).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/30/19 10:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a question that comes to mind about the costs of IS building and shipping clan weapons. Didn't they do the same when League tech came back? Having to redesign mechs as well as make the League items needed to be done. At least with omni tech coming out, they could very well use most of the clan tech, except maybe Endosteel and Ferrous fiber. And even that shouldn't be that difficult. Most of the clan tech seems to be electronics, not actual materials or the way they are built. And for those, the invasion of Huntress would remove that issue. That information would have gotten back to each state that had forces there.
As for expanding the size of each Clan through so called “garrison” units – sorry but no, each clan agreed before the Invasion as to the units they were allowed to use, and if they go back on this and demand more in the future I would have assumed that the Home Clans would say the original bid had been made null and void and as such they are now allowed to invade also.
I will point out again, that the bids do not include garrison units, for the record.
Now I do agree that the clans could see the ones invading could not do the job, so would again, push for replacement of them, or for their clan to become part of the invasion forces. How many out of the clans would say yes to being restricted from being able to become the ilclan? This alone, would suggest there would be more trials to remove that restriction.
But again. Fix the rules before trying to get anything rewritten. Without the rule fixes, any new writing is pointless. The logic holes and ways things are done, would erode any such attempt to rewrite.
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Requiem
05/31/19 01:53 AM
1.158.130.13
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When Star League era tech came back units were issued with refit packages – the way I read it – they were just un-plug; remove stabilizing bolts; remove weapon system / ammo loading system; re-plug and re-arm / re-attach ammo etc. – it did not require a total redesign of the Mech.
So why would the introduction of Clan Tech require a total re-design of their mech – it is just another refit package. So, if you have the ability to create Clan Tech why not? Being too expensive is just a false statement – economics is a false statement – you would ensue all your best units are outfitted with 100% Clan Tech if you could do so – this again is the hobbling of the IS in favor of the Clans.
I agree it would be infinitely easier with omni – another reason why there should have been more omnis being produced by all the Great Houses rather that single weapon package mechs- and again we have have another example of the hobbling of the IS in favor of the Clans.
As for the Clans allowed to having “Garrison Units” can we go back to our previous discussions regarding this where I pointed out that it was written that this was illegal and also covered up by all the Clans because they all realized that their initial bids were completely substandard.
And what about pg. 137 Crusader Clans when Khan Vlad pushed his “Garrison Units” into front line actions – at this point the entire original bids that formed the invasion Clans became moot – at that point all the Clans should have been allowed to attack the Inner Sphere, and yet why didn’t they? At this point all of the Clans could have become part of the invasion and yet they didn’t. Why?
The story has many instances of contradiction / equivocation and outright favoritism of one Unit / House / Clan over that of its rivals, and as far as I am concerned as from 3039 on-wards the game needs a re-write due to the increasing and often baffling history the canon version proposes.
I agree there must me new rules – but there also needs to be a completely new game system for both naval conflicts and that of any battles above company level – and any battle that incorporates infantry, armor, VTOLS, Mechs, Aerospace, Power armor, Artillery etc. etc. all on the same board at the same time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/31/19 11:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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First, the Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars were pushing to get garrison units in place. So the head crusaders, which the Falcons were supposed to be tradition bound hardliners, pushed to get them into the IS. Ulric had them waiting in the close periphery for the ok to use them.
I don't remember Vlad pushing for them, but Ulric did. He used their own wording against the others. He was garrison towns and such the attack units just took, so he could move the attack units on. Counter attacks were handled by the garrison units. This is where he pushed them into the front line. Battle over, no fire, zone secured. Planet or even continent may not have been cleared, but oh well. It was only a matter of time.
And the IS DID create new units with Star League tech. The did so quickly. Some were in the works for a while, but others were made to sound like they were pushed into design as the clans attacked, and had them out for the truce battle.
The Fireball is a good example of it. The FC needed a unit to deal with the elementals, and built it in 3053.
Edited by ghostrider (05/31/19 11:33 PM)
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Requiem
06/01/19 04:36 AM
1.158.130.13
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I find it interesting that the ability to equivocate regarding the rules of Battle law is still a practice even within the the time of the Clans.
The rule of law should have been set in stone – I bid this amount of units – Yes I am using this force as my attack force! I just have a second unit that I can use during dubious battles as a back- up force they are not a part of the main force even when battling on the same world and at the same time …. No, they are two separate forces …. Pinkie swear!!!!!
As for the use of the Wolf Garrison forces ….. Ulric brought them in …. however, post Falcon / Wolf fracas Vlad repurposed them for front line activities, thus breaking the initial bid.
As for creating new units – sorry I haven’t seen any new units – only issuing new ‘Mechs to existing units. As for the Fireball, this ‘Mech should be renamed as the spark-ball! As it is an overpriced wimp even against elementals – it’s completely under-gunned.
What was needed totally new units that have a complement of 100% IS omni-mechs / omni-vehicles / omni-fighters / and power armour – was anything like this created to fight the clans? No, so no new units as far as I can see!
Also a response to the clan elemental is a very powerful armour piercing sniper rifle – that has a range at the one to one and a half kilometre range – ammunition – how about uranium depleted rounds – one hit and they are cooked, literally! Thus providing the IS infantry with a weapon that they can defend themselves against a clan elemental – and can be used by commando and partisans as a sniper rifle to assassinate Clan personnel upon captured worlds.
The idea that the Clans could pacify all their worlds after they have captured it is completely silly idea – within Rasalhague there should have been an eternal partisan war – they didn’t just win their freedom from the DC just to give up when the Bears arrived! Another poorly written scenario as far as I am concerned.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/06/19 10:02 PM
45.43.104.179
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>>> each clan agreed before the Invasion as to the units they were allowed to use, and if they go back on this and demand more in the future I would have assumed that the Home Clans would say the original bid had been made null and void and as such they are now allowed to invade also.
>>> As for the use of the Wolf Garrison forces ….. Ulric brought them in …. however, post Falcon / Wolf fracas Vlad repurposed them for front line activities, thus breaking the initial bid.
There's two parts to this.
First, all those Provisional Garrison Clusters (PGCs) of the invading clans were created after their invasion began, partly from salvaged equipment they took in battle, and partly as hand-me-downs from the front-line units (who got new equipment shipped from the homeworlds). So while one of the Clans may have originally bid five galaxies, but creates four more en route, and then uses assets of those four later during the invasion, it doesn't seem to break the original bid. Instead of thinking as the invasion bid as "How many galaxies will you need to take Terra?", think of it as "How many galaxies will you begin your invasion with?" Its something of a cheat but apparently one that didn't raise any red flags with the homeworld Clans. (It likely would have been discussed in Grand Council and accepted as normal practice under the circumstances of the invading clans needing to garrison many, many more worlds than they were used to.)
Secondly, replacing personnel apparently was absolutely demanding more, in line with Clan philosophy that the warrior matters, not the machine. I guess leading up to the invasion you could "hide" valuable warriors in less valuable units, such as gathering 25 MechWarriors in an infantry star, then assigning them to the PGCs as mechs become available, but this is bad form and I'm not sure how FASA was explaining how the warriors for PGCs came into the picture. Perhaps if the bids were constrained to front-line forces only, but that doesn't entirely fit with good bidding practice. As far as front-line warrior replacement, the invading clans certainly had to come up with a workaround in the form of the Harvest Trials - they wouldn't pull from their own reserves, but from other clans via Trials of Possession. If I'm not mistaken, some of the Clans fought many Trials of Refusal over this whole idea, as they thought this was a cheat, and even then used it as a basis to invade just as you suggested (see Clan Ice Hellion)
Also, don't forget that Vlad's new Clan Wolf, born of the absorbed, then freed Clan Jade Wolf, was technically no longer bound by the terms of the old Wolves. Just as Clan Stone Lion was no longer bound to the Inner Sphere taint of their Hell's Horses brethren. New Clans get fresh starts, so Vlad converting his PGCs to front-line galaxies had no bearing on Ulric's original invasion bid. The other Clans would possibly be breaking bids to do the same though.
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Requiem
06/06/19 11:01 PM
1.158.130.13
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First, If the Clans are allowed t establish new PGC units – why were there no IS units – specialist anti-clan units that were also comprised of 100% omnis?
Biased towards the Clans?
Second, Sibko numbers are in no way large enough to establish whole new military galaxies – there is no mention of Harvest Trials - So how did they ever obtain the number warriors to crate these new Clan forces? So that they could adequately garrison every world they had captured – where as if you use the original number and an Excell sheet you will see the maximum is about a trinary upon each world only.
Biased towards the Clans again?
So if each Clan is allowed a fresh start if they just change their name or go through a trial of absorption – so why didn’t many of the home clans use this get around and join the invasion fleet – no I am no longer this clan I am the new and improved that clan thus I can do as I like …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/19 02:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. Time to poke more holes into this.
First off. A single 100 member sibko was NOT the only one the clans produced per warrior generation. I suspect there were several thousand, to maybe over tens of thousands of potential warriors were made each year. If only 100 were tested a year, it would not keep up with clan trials, as maybe 5 would graduate to become a mech warrior. And with the Aidan Pryde story, we know the falcons had several in training at once. The one he failed out of, the one he joined, and the two freeborn ones he dealt with as well.
how about uranium depleted rounds. Supposedly ALL ammunition in the game is such. Unless specifically said to be otherwise.
The clans bid for the initial invasion of so many units for the assault. Clan customs had the PGCs some in if they took an area, unless it was very important, then the front line units were put into place. It is established history. Vlad may well have used the PGC's to provide the man power to bring his forces up to the initial bid. Making more is possible, but would violate the bids, if it was still in effect. The battle for the truce was a draw for the wolves and the falcons won their objectives. So as a whole, the clans were stuck. The falcons decided to honor the treaty, even though they had the right to ignore the outcome. They won.
The lack of IS omnis can be explained by the 'long' times needed to research them, as well as make such units, and train techs to work on and with the new technologies. It was not quick to change over production lines to build units they already knew how to make, much less completely new ones. And these were still in the beta testing cycle by the time the Tukayyid battle was done. Afterwards, I will agree they should have had more, but then the mech base for some were junk to begin with. The blackjack? The firestarter? Both niche mechs.
And hiding warriors isn't really necessary, as those sent to PGCs and such were not horrible warriors. Some were far better then the front lines, but politics did get involved. Some were put there because they failed to win a battle, or maybe just beat the hell out of their commanding officer.
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Cray
06/07/19 05:40 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
Ok. Time to poke more holes into this.
First off. A single 100 member sibko was NOT the only one the clans produced per warrior generation. I suspect there were several thousand, to maybe over tens of thousands of potential warriors were made each year
Definitely. Per "Warriors of Kerensky," page 34, the Clan homeworlds had 110,500 people in the warrior caste in 3058. Their average lifespan was 45.2 years (page 37) and warriors were largely driven out of combat roles by their late 30s. This means warriors have (on average) 20-ish year careers.
In turn, this means the Clans as a whole need to replace 4-5% of the warrior caste every year: 4,000 to 5,000. That's at least 300 for each of 17 Clans per year.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/07/19 07:20 PM
1.158.130.13
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One Galaxy
Two to Six Clusters – though most most have three to five, with an average or four ;
A Cluster - Three to five binaries and / or Trinaries, with an average of four to five Trinaries
So for a four Trinaries Cluster – this is sixty – and four Cluster Galaxy – this is 240
And five Trinaries Cluster – this is seventy five - and four Cluster Galaxy – this is 300
And yet the average replacement personnel (as per Cray’s estimate above) is 300
Thus we can say that if a new Galaxy is established it would require all to almost all the replacement personnel you are able to produce through your Sibko training program for an entire year.
However, this is not taking into account losses in personnel through normal operating procedures.
It also does not take into account all-out war with another clan / IS Great House – can we assume that the attrition numbers – depletion rate of Clan personnel throughout the Invasion period are higher than the average 300 replacement personnel for each year?
Unfortunately the depletion loss of a clan is very hard to determine – except in those rare cases when something extraordinary occurred.
However when you look at the depletion rate of the IS forces for the same period the way it is written it indicates that whole units are being decimated – so are we to assume that despite the mass slaughter of IS units Clan forces suffered only a minimal amount of damage, no more than a star?
Give me thirty commando groups on thirty worlds all armed with 50 cal and above sniper rifles / as well as a high quality explosives and I believe you could get to three hundred in a month.
In an all-out war I cannot see how the Clans could have kept their depletion levels below the average replacement numbers of three hundred a year – Also how many resupply missions were sent to each individual Clan – Monthly? Or even half-yearly? – so that is only on average an additional 25 personnel each month to replace your losses throughout your entire Touman to maintain you current level of forces fighting strength as at their initial level within the invasion corridor of the IS.
To me this seems not just a bit unrealistic it is beyond the bounds of reality.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/08/19 02:56 AM
1.158.130.13
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Remember the time taken from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS was approximately six months (or there about) – so if you only receive your replacements every six months if a major battle occurs early on and you lose a large amount of fighters early on you will have to continue on within reduced circumstances.
And if you have to wait six months for the next replacement personnel to arrive from the Clans Home Worlds, you can see when you receive these replacements becomes a time of critical importance.
And if you can stop one or more of these replacement personnel shipments you could quite literally put a single Clan in bind.
And yet this was not even contemplated.
The timing of replacement personnel and material should have considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/08/19 06:14 AM
1.158.130.13
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The only other consideration is if there is a forward training facility for their replacement personnel or do they come directly from Clan Space to the Clans forward Space Station, where the bulk breaking of their material inventory occurs, and is then on-forwarded to their respective Clans.
This is important because it will affect what you are hunting for when you are using my Fenrir Unit Game within the Deep Periphery.
And most importantly it will affect Clan forward operational units ability to (re-supply materials) / availability to (pilots) continue the fight as well as the re-supply materials held within their transport units which can then be transferred back into the IS for IS front line unit refit packages .
Over time what does your intelligence unit discover when you capture a Clan resupply fleet?
- Just the coordinates of a forward Space Station;
- More – coordinates for bases where additional pilots are housed before they enter into the IS.
Becoming part of a wolf-pack unit (refer submarine units WW2 – both American and German fleets), will provide for an exciting game within the Deep Periphery as you unit hunts and is being hunted by the Clans for fleets and forward re-supply bases.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/11/19 12:31 AM
45.43.104.179
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Quote:
So that they could adequately garrison every world they had captured – where as if you use the original number and an Excell sheet you will see the maximum is about a trinary upon each world only.
Neither the invading clans nor Houses placed garrison forces on every world. For the vast majority of planets not along a border, their nearest help is a jump or two away. The House armies aren't stationing companies on every world, they station a regiment or battalion on one and count on it providing sufficient coverage to react to an attack on a nearby world. Likewise, the Clans would place a cluster to provide the same multi-world coverage.
Presumably, riots and uprisings weren't much of a concern on conquered worlds, and if they were, then the planetary militia would solve the problem. It can be assumed that the Clans mostly left planetary militias intact to police the conquered worlds after they'd moved on.
It can also be assumed that the Clans, for the most part, can create as many warriors as they need to keep up with losses. (With the last month or two of Clan Smoke Jaguar being the obvious exception.) Also, there isn't a death, a wait for six months for new Warrior to arrive, and then the point is available to battle again - its all happening concurrently. Losses were probably replaced within a month or two, second-line trueborns in the invasion front could be promoted to front-line duty, and if a Clan had an excess of Warriors, they could assign those Warriors some of their reserves they were keeping in the near periphery. The concept of frequent eugenic sibkos and Brian Cache reserves always allowed the Clans to recover losses quicker than their IS counterparts. Short of a major loss in which an entire cluster is wiped out, the Clans can generally recover to full strength within a month or two. Most IS units require many months to replace a company and several years to replace a battalion or regiment.
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Requiem
06/11/19 01:28 AM
1.158.130.13
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If there isn’t a Garrison on every world – how long would it take for the IS to place a Garrison on that World?
How long would the people on that world obey their Clan Overlords and not return to their original Houses? How hard would it be for the IS to resupply insurgent groups – lay very complex traps for their Clan overlord to stumble into?
No, just like all wars – if you want to say you control that area you need boots on the ground – otherwise we are back to Vietnam – Air Cav in – reconnaissance mission / small battle – Air Cav out – and the Vietcong can just walk back in and take control / or the Battle of Pork Chop Hill – what did that prove?
So, sorry but I disagree – there is no way the Clans could say they held the planet unless they had boots on the ground and were in control over all the planet’s government agencies.
As for the IS yes they did have defined border and major units were only upon a small number of worlds. However, every world did have a defined militia and a defined government that had its allegiance to its House. When conquered you can bet there was a newly established militia who was loyal to their new house on that planet ensuring the government was loyal to its new masters.
As for the Clans creating all the warriors they want – it may seem that way when you read the books – however mathematics does not lie on average every Clan only gets approximately 300 per year.
This is another issue the game completely fell down on!
If this was included in the original game how different it would have been.
There is not an infinite number of pods to make an infinite number of true born warriors for each and every clan. If you look at a sibko training – two to three graduates per sibko is considered to be a good – thus for 300 new warriors you would need 100 Sibko units for one year – if they graduate at 18 – then 1,800 sibkos – then consider how many do not becoming a warrior.
How could each clan accommodate such a rapid increase in their population – food, Shelter, Healthcare, employment etc
Sorry, but no there must be a cut off level – and there should have been a schedule for when each clan receives their new warriors. This would have allowed for a new game strategy to capture / destroy all re-supply transports into the Clan Invasion Corridor – another missed game opportunity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/11/19 10:07 PM
45.43.104.179
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I didn't say garrisoning one world amongst a group made sense, I said that's what the IS does as well. One thing of note is that by the 31st century, planets were used to being conquered and fought back and forth over, so the populaces got used to their overlords changing somewhat more frequently than we in the 21st are used to. Its become second nature to them. The problems are expressed with groups like the Rasalhaguians who desired freedom or a long time, had it briefly then lost it again with little pushback.
Assuming your numbers of 100 sibkos per year producing 300 warriors is what's needed to replenish an average Clan's losses...
Why would it create problems with food, shelter, care or employment? If 100 sibkos, and 97 in each sibko fail to make it to Warrior caste, that's 9,700 new members into other castes per year in an average Clan. This is utterly insignificant in the terms of the 25-50 million total populations that most Clans had from the Golden Century onward so I really don't see what the fuss is about regarding being able to accommodate the population growth of failed sibko candidates. The non-Warrior caste births should greatly outweigh the failed sibkos. Even in the best case scenario of an average Clan lifespan of 100 years (and it was probably less; the WOK book may even say so), we're talking 250,000 to 500,000 births per year in a clan just to keep population stable. 9,700 out of 250,000 is less than 4% -- insignificant to be the blame for food, shelter, care, or employment problems.
Why can't a clan produce 100 sibkos per year? The eugenics program should allow them a practically unlimited number of embryos, so iron womb availability is the factor to measure. Given that the iron womb is the Clans absolute pinnacle of technology, above and beyond even the Omnimech or Elemental suit, production would naturally be a priority. 10,000 sibbies per year, assuming a nine month gestation rate, requires 7500 wombs (and the iron womb is probably much more efficient than that, perhaps as little as 3 or 4 months gestation timeframe, bringing the number down as small as 2500 or so.) All a Clan needs to do to reach 7500 is build 30-40 wombs per year over the course of Clan history, and they can whip out 100 sibkos per year by 3048. You can't sell me on the idea that a Clan could not possibly have constructed 30-40 wombs per year, but be pumping out hundreds of mechs and Elemental suits in same. Each clan really should have been able to attain 100 sibkos per year well earlier, probably even by 2900.
So I stand by my assumption that the Clans could produce as many Warriors as desired to fill empty spots in their toumans, and doing so does not create any problems back home from washouts flooding the market or require the creation of an unreasonable number of iron wombs.
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Requiem
06/12/19 01:14 AM
1.158.130.13
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Yes, I agree that by the 31st Century planets were becoming used to being conquered by one house or another depending upon their location, and as such they were used to the change in house loyalty.
However, the problem revolves around the issue of the Clans – they are not from the Inner Sphere and as such are not expected - thus psychologically an individuals level of uncertainty and paranoia is on the upswing with regards to being conquered by an unknown - second the Clans way of life is extremely alien to that of the Inner Sphere, can you imagine what would happen on an Inner Sphere planet when they attempt to enforce their war of life – a caste system as well as the removal of children from their parents (like they do on the Clan Home Wolds) – try that in the Inner Sphere and you will have a revolution occurring on every world where they try to enforce it – the entire population would rise up in revolt would be understatement!
Consider – where you are going to place these 9,700 individuals – jobs, increase in food allocations etc – have a look at the Russian (Communist era) 5 year plan – the question is can the local administration continually accept this additional population upswing? After a while I believe it would become difficult – however it is not as bad as that, as a major percentage of the 9,700 would have been killed off during training.
As for why you can’t produce 100 sibkos per year – available resources sounds like a good excuse – This is where it gets a little bit sticky in that there is almost no records as to what can and cannot be achieved – most are purely hypothetical assumptions given the little bit of information available – however the game does need a cut off limit and until a definitive figure is provided I trust the Calculations as supplied by Cray (refer post above dated 06/07/19).
Other than that I can only assume that each Game master can set their own limit as per their own games unique way of doing things. So may I suggest that you set your own limit and run with what amount you believe is a reasonable amount of new reinforcements and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks – your game, so you tweak it however you want to, and just have fun – just consider when they arrive Monthly / Quarterly / Half Yearly – as large battles before and the timing to when new soldiers arrives may cause individual Clans problems within your game world – to which either other clans or the IS Units may wish to exploit (makes for a good back story one way or another).
Also if you are running my suggested Fenrir Units – Units hunting Clans in the Deep Periphery - you will need to decide if the recruits are being sent to a staging area (world) before being sent to into the IS or if they come directly from the Clan Home Worlds to the Clans Major Space Stations hidden in the Deep Periphery that deal with Inventory bulk Breaking for each Clan, before they are then sent to each individual clan unit upon different worlds directly.
As this may affect how your individual stories as to what your Fenrir unit has encountered within the Deep Periphery.
And on a secondary note there should have been a map established for each clan and IS House as to their major transport routes for resupply - this is a major target of opportunity - as units can be brought down by lack of consumables as well as a direct attack. (Plus it wouldn't be bad if you could raid a major inventory staging area to replenish your own lack of consumables / replacement parts etc during the game).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/19 01:51 AM
66.74.60.165
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First off, garrison units might well be militia. Also, a single lance or star could well secure the world until reinforcements come. Especially if the government is supporting them, or their family being held hostage. Solve all or fix all? Not in the least bit. Even sympathizers could maintain order on a world. Police tend to keep the masses in line. Or did I miss something with the states in the United States?
Solemha units could well be the militia for the clans to keep a world pacified. We do know they were used in the front lines of the invasion. Fodder. Those were not part of the bid to my knowledge.
The three hundred per clan was an average. Some clans would not get that many, as they were not the large clans like others. The Hells Horses relied more on vehicles then mechs, and the Snow Ravens were more Aerospace heavy then mechs. If they had all included then there is no way they could replace normal trial losses.
Consider – where you are going to place these 9,700 individuals – jobs, increase in food allocations etc. How is this a problem per year? Even per month won't be that harsh. There are more then a few cities in the U.S. that have this birth rate per year.
With the increase, the workers are already working the fields, and houses do not need to be made of metal, or even stone for that fact. And I doubt worlds are even close to max capacity in the clans area, even the pentagon worlds. So room to grow shouldn't be a problem.
Now I will support part of the numbers game. Having the sibkos made, and getting them trained in a certain time frame is where they would have some issues.
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Requiem
06/12/19 03:16 AM
1.158.130.13
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Securing a world with a Star of ‘Mechs – and a half dozen commandoes with long range sniper rifles will end that star all in one volley if they do not have the ability to secure the surrounding area – and nothing has shown me the Clans have any base security elements, as they were never needed in Clan Space – However here in the IS – a base without a suitable security force is just one big open target.
As for control of a world – Questions must be asked of each world …. Just the first couple of questions that must be asked ….
Who are you?
What do you want?
Whom do you serve and whom do you trust?
What does freedom mean and how far will you go to achieve it?
What is their population level and what is their technological and sociological development – and to what forces remain hidden and what assets do they hold?
As for the Clans
How do they hold power – with what leverage?
Will the people even listen to them?
Can they even enforce their will on the population?
Again – the Clans bid a certain amount of forces available per invasion corridor that never included these forces and it was not until after Tukayyid the need for these forces became evident – So despite the illegal use of Solhama units or PDZ units aside to boost their numbers so they cold say they could hold the worlds. In reality they never had the troops or the people who form the administration of the government available to hold many of the worlds – that is unless they ended up with a Quisling / Vichy government on their hand who used the power of the state to keep themselves in control – and yet this is another area of the Cannon Invasion that was never explained. The Military like those of Roan Legions never had a bureaucracy available to administer worlds – their dependence upon worlds to administer themselves in the Clan’s interests is just wishful thinking – also how do non-warrior Clan individuals receive an education in government bureaucracy to run a world with all the government departments necessary to ensure the population remains compliant?
Yes the 300 is an average – some more / some less – and yes there is no way they cold replace losses over a set time.
War within Clan Space is stratified – losses are quantifiable and minimized so that a replacement schedule of 300 per year is an acceptable to their loss depletion rate.
However, total War within the IS is a quantum leap away from the wars experienced within Clan Space. They are meaner / dirtier – and as per Patton’s speech “no one ever won a war by dieing for their country, they got the other so of **** to die for their country!”
The creativity of the IS soldier to kill the enemy extends to the assassin, the IED, the use of poison (in water / food anything for that matter), traps, commando raids, using partisans – Total War / Attrition War – using hidden units to strike from the shadow, psychological warfare upon their technicians, the use of traitors to destroy the clans from within, etc. – something the Clans have never had to worry about …. Until the Invasion … they are ill prepared for a total IS war, a point that was never investigated within the original books because they rushed the development …. If they had slowed down and considered everything how the game would have become so magnificent …and yet all we really have is just the canvas and frame of a universe devoid of all the remaining paint and inspiration to turn that canvas into a masterpiece. Thus it is now up to the fans to discover their own universe through the application of their own paint to the canvas supplied.
Did you ever think that maybe Ulric wanted to lose at Tukayyid? This was so that in order to properly re-establish a new Sibko reshine within his Clan – Upon the Initial Invasion each Clan was receiving an average of 300 replacement personnel (for all the Branches – “Mech, Elemental, Aerospace and Warship) Initially the He could see that his Loss depletion rate was becoming greater than that of his ability to supply replacement personnel without increasing the number of freeborns within Wolves. To fix this he would need the 15 years to double / triple the number of Wolf Clan Iron Wombs / Sikos than he has now so that in 15 years time he will have the replacement personnel to fight off a resurgent IS force with an expected parity in weapons and weapon systems. Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe he was gambling that his forces within the IS could hold off the IS (even if this meant reducing the size of their captured territory) so that in 15 years time he would have the forces available in Mechs / Elementals / Aerospace pilots / Warships to achieve his objective.
He needs time for these babies born in 3052 to become warriors by 3066-7 when he is expecting the IS to resume Total War once more.
So to do this he needed to some-way to break the initial bid without getting the other Clans still in the Clan Home Worlds to accept his new increased force numbers without getting upset and declaring the initial bid null and void – thus they too will say they too can join in the invasion – which is not what he wants at all – with a smaller number the chance of becoming il-Clan is a better prospect.
And yet the initial bid was made in stone and the PDZs cannot be front line units – politically I cannot see this working so early on – a new more devious scheme needs to arranged and at a later date so that he gets his new front line units in the IS and still forces all those Clans, currently not involved in the invasion, to stay out of the invasion corridor.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/19 03:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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and nothing has shown me the Clans have any base security elements, as they were never needed in Clan Space
Huh? So they didn't need anything to secure their bases from the Bandit caste in clan space? The very one you are suggesting would rise up and support a revolution? Solemha infantry would fill this role if not the elementals that were less then stellar.
The clans had a lot of fear for them. The IS could not hold them back during the invasion, and with the warships and such, people would rather rebel in little ways, then armed conflict. The did not know the clans honor system at that time. Without the future knowledge you have, and are using to say everything is wrong, there would be no hard ground to stand on. I played during the release of the clans. The writers filling out how they act and such gave the game master the ability to play them better then just another house. Oddities like engaging one foe until either were dead is one. It took a few games to see that. The fear issue is what kept most in line. They did not know if they were better or worse then the Kurita security forces. They did know, normal weapons only pissed off the armored soldiers. They did kill when the offense to the clans laws was broken. No one knew if any other worlds were still free and could send help. So you sit and plan until you get an idea and weapons you can use.
Again – the Clans bid a certain amount of forces available per invasion corridor that never included these forces and it was not until after Tukayyid the need for these forces became evident – So despite the illegal use of Solhama units or PDZ units aside . This argument was proven wrong in the books. ALL of their military actions that dealt with taking lands did not include defense forces, and were expected to garrison the property so the front line could move on. They were not supposed to be used in offense.
War within Clan Space is stratified – losses are quantifiable and minimized so that a replacement schedule of 300 per year is an acceptable to their loss depletion rate. How do you control multiple clans deciding to set trials of possession or greivence?
How do you control losses of units, as a single thing like an erppc or gauss shot to the head of all your units?
Or even having your assault force's drop ship fail and kill all aboard? Even warship battles did happen.
Did you ever think that maybe Ulric wanted to lose at Tukayyid? I know he wanted the clans to lose. It was to show them the IS invasion wasn't against a bunch of ill equipped, drunken rabble like the crusaders made it sound like. And it worked. The most arrogant of the clans suffered heavy losses, with the Falcons being the only ones to take their objectives. Most retreated with leaving alot of their own, dead on the field. Ulric opposed the invasion, along with a large chunk of the Wolves. The defeat at the hands of the IS, IE Comstar, was a blow to the crusaders. The IS would be able to build up forces to defeat the invasion. The infighting, which was very logical, is what stopped that from happening.
Writers hobbling the IS? Probable. But again. They need conflict to sell books.
And few want to play someone poisoning a water source, or nuking a base with portable nukes. I find the idea of it to be sickeningly wrong for a game. I am pretty sure this is why the writers turned away from this.
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Requiem
06/12/19 07:15 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider,
- Can you please provide evidence as to utilizing solhama as base security?
- Can you show in any instance where the Bandit Caste has attacked a Clan military base – where a softer target is more probable?
Yes, elementals have been used as base security, however when you get back to your excel sheet per world you are down to a very small number and then if you have an 8 hour, or even 12 hour rotation - even less? With a decent marksman / high powered rifle and scope a 1Km range is not unbelievable – so unless you never leave a building unless you are within your machine – goodnight – and with a commando squad who all have these sniper rifles and everyone is outside at the same time?.
The question revolves around attitude – have the clans ever had to initiate base security the way IS forces do? – IS military know the risks – which is why they have so many infantry with them – RCT for example + Canine corp. etc. – Never have the Clans had to initiate such procedures they are completely unprepared for insurgent warfare using assassination as a weapon – plus they do not have infantry with them in the invasion bid just elementals. Have a look at the initial number of jump-ships and Warships – there is barely enough room for their what they did declare in their invasion bid – there is absolutely no room for any solhama Infantry units.
As for the Bandit caste uprising – they would only join the fight and engage in large scale activities when the following is also happening;
- Mass uprising by ALL the castes against the Military elite;
- Post sabotage of most bases / machines by free-birth Techs as a first strike; and
- In all likely hood an invasion by the SLDF at the same time.
As for the invasion – the ludicrous writing and biased game developers got them so far as they did, it was not their military prowess that achieved this – How many battles allowed for attrition warfare tactics from the get go? – after 12 months there should have been an anti-elemental infantry rifle where was it? Where were the partisan fighting / SOE fighting in the rear – where were the Fenrir forces disrupting Clan logistics / replacement personnel within the Periphery / Deep Periphery – where were the mass aerospace assaults upon Clan Jump-ships (they all had only very limited numbers of these, so take out a large percentage of these and you will slow down / stop the invasion) – where are the dropships converted into PT / Submarine Vessels (as a stop gap to warship production) – Where were the FRR citizens fighting their new overlords, after just winning their freedom against the DC? – why wasn’t the tactics used of Wolcott used upon all battle fields after say the second invasion wave? Surely by then the IS military would have picked up on the Clans military limitations.
Again this invasion is a complete white wash it was a completely biased invasion by the game developers in favour of the Clans to achieve a very rapid invasion (have a read of the invasion book – it is the same tactics over and over again it does not make sense whatsoever) – it was rush rush rush to get the new IS Clan realms established – then use Tukayyid (which makes little sense in war – as it has never happened before to stop them) - if a little more time had been utilized a little more for-thought then and only then would you have seen an invasion that we could have believed in.
As is it is a complete and utter farcical mess.
As for fear – yes initially I agree – but as soon as you know they are human that will soon erode – what about the clans imposing their way of life upon the IS people – how many would put up with that?
Sorry to say but you and I have completely different ideas as to the invasion – and yes I was also with a massive game group when the invasion came out (at that time there was a group of about 50 of us in the school hall once a week for 5-6 hours continual game play) and yes we had mass rows about what we could and couldn’t do – in a stand up fight one to one it was always a slaughter in favour of the Clans – as this is just how the game’s weapons / pilot stats had them as well as the use elementals to dissect ‘Mechs – that is why you (as an IS force) had to be more creative to win by using mass vehicle / VTOL / aerospace fighter assaults – by getting in their rear and stealing their downed dropships and Techs – by going to ground and waiting until they pass then emerging / killing the garrison unit – taking everything and bugging out once the black box call had been made – Utilizing the Tactics of Walcott as an example of winning – put them in a place where range does not count – use physical assaults / give all your ‘Mechs hatchets / swords etc. – ague about having anti-elemental infantry weapons (as there should have been something as the war progressed – the lack of which just shows how biased the game was designed to be for the Clans over the IS – so use in house rules if allowed for Infantry Vs. Elementals).
Remember reading about the elemental who chased a DC child into a building only to have a spike drop from the roof (mass weight behind it) to impale him against the wall – the child and her grandfather then used a stake and a sledgehammer to drive the stake through his helmet into his head. So if a hand held weapon could penetrate the helmet may I ask why a 50 Cal. Round is unable to penetrate?
Yes, Ulric wanted them to loose for the reasons you have given – however, what I am suggesting is he also realised that he needed to increase the number of true-born / iron wombs now to two / three times what they are now because in 15 years when the IS fight all the IS clans to win back their worlds by using attrition warfare tactics and in all reality weapons parity with the Clans - he realises they will be mass casualties on both sides – so unless he has the mass children being born now he will not have the warriors to fend off the SLDF units in 15 years – that is, in 15 years he will need three times the number of replacement personnel to stay in the game, due to mass casualties, otherwise the loss depletion rate will be so grate the IS will just roll right over the Clans – they just will not have the replacement personnel to survive a the protracted war to come.
15 years is a long lime
West Point 2019 Graduating Class – 1270 cadets – and this is for only one Academy in one year.
Clans – 3052 – approximately 300 for each Clan and for only one year.
If the IS can move to a total war production economy (like America in WW2) – how many new units should it have been able to establish after 15 years? 100 to even 250 new SLDF units RCTs with 100% omni tech and with 100% IS comparable Clan Weapons should not have been beyond reality - and all second line units (3052 - front line units) at a minimum of 50% - 75% IS comparable Clan Weapons.
How many pocket warships and aerospace fighter carriers should the IS have been able to manufacture - 50 to 80 ships in total does not sound unrealistic - together with how many PT / Submarine Class Vessels?
By 3067 numbers alone will dictate the winner ....
So again we are back to the game developers being biased toward the Clans – a way too early kick off and only just against one Clan (The Jags) – sorry but this is the most unbelievable rubbish I have ever had to read.
QUOTE: “And few want to play someone poisoning a water source, or nuking a base with portable nukes. I find the idea of it to be sickeningly wrong for a game. I am pretty sure this is why the writers turned away from this”.
And yet only a few years later we have the Jihad era.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/12/19 07:31 PM)
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ghostrider
06/13/19 01:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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There were anti infantry rifles. Lots of them. As for penetrating armored infantry suits is another story. But then it would have to be more powerful then what is carried on military units such as mechs.
This would lead to the question of why it wasn't invented long ago and used against mechs?
The question revolves around attitude – have the clans ever had to initiate base security the way IS forces do?
This goes back to the question of how Wolfnet was so effective at spying to begin with.
taking everything and bugging out once the black box call had been made . As noted before, the only time this was talked about was during the fourth war, and when the invasion of Luthien was announced. With this, only the FC was supposed to have this tech, and it would NOT share it with anyone else. That is how almost all new tech would have been. The FC wanted the DC bled out, while the DC wanted the FC bled out. Pull back and let the enemy over extend themselves seemed to be the idea the IS was going to use. But again. Without knowing anything about the enemy, as they did at the time of the writing, how do you know they were not just using the minimal force, but had thousands of clusters ready to pounce when you moved your forces in bulk. The IS was good for doing tricks like that, so why would you think the invader would be any different? And that isn't mentioning not knowing how many warships they actually had, or if they would use them as they did at Turtle Bay?
And yet only a few years later we have the Jihad era. Did you play the WOB forces doing so?
by using mass vehicle / VTOL / aerospace fighter assaults. So the writers hobbled the clans by not having the vehicles and such to use in the assault? That is what this suggests.
to fend off the SLDF units in 15 years. Please explain how Ulric would come to this conclusion? He somehow knew the IS would reform the SLDF?
He wanted the clans to leave the IS period. The Wolves lost the least amount of warriors in the invasion from the sounds of it. It would have been to his advantage to let the fighting continue and bleed out the Jaguars and Falcons, while keeping his forces relatively intact. Just had to make sure they didn't take Terra. It was very possible once the two fell, he could pull the Wolves out of the IS, and the Bears would probably have done so as well. They need for additional troops may well have been in the works before the invasion. Ulric was smart enough to realize, the IS could very well swamp them, and with any decent warriors drive them out completely. If not for being forced to participate, the Wolves would have remained in the home worlds.
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ghostrider
06/13/19 01:33 AM
66.74.60.165
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Pocket warships would need the weapons to begin with, which wasn't something everyone knew how to make, and then design/redesign the ships to use them. Not a quick thing to do. Mechs are much easier to change out. More of them, and more facilities to deal with mechs.
The ships that would be done. The Achilles dropship was made in the CC. Leaving out the alt, the canon story is being discussed here, so only the CC would be able to do so. The DC one was taken by the Jaguars if I remember right. Yet the CC was the last one to get League tech. Without WOB's help, they would have been much further behind in tech then they were later in the game.
The canon version suggest that the IS was still having issues replacing lost machines, much less be able to make whole new regiments of units. They hadn't replaced the losses from the 3039 war yet. So where would all of these new machines come from? How many units were at full strength when the clans invaded? Most on the periphery were probably down so many, they needed a breather to refit.
As for why a 50 caliber shot couldn't penetrate elemental armor is the same reason why it can't penetrate mech armor. Or tank armor. Magic maybe? The game rules say it doesn't happen, so as said more then a few times, the game does not follow logic or physics all the time. But again. Nukes don't do that much damage in the game.
If they had, then the canon IS would be more of a wasteland then what it was. The Terran Hegemony worlds would be in worse shape then what they were. Terra should still be glowing, as it sounds like nukes were used by both sides in the Amaris war.
Even the DC is not the ultimate dictatorship that can tell all companies to make this or that. Suggesting something like the FC or the FWL could is foolish.
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Requiem
06/13/19 02:53 AM
1.158.130.13
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An example of the Naval weapons availability is …..
Naval Lasers ….. NL55 ….. The Draconis Combine produced Battlesats with these – first prototype Battlesat was in 3056, so how many ears earlier did they produce a working NL55? and as for capital Missiles – they were introduced in 3051.
What it comes down to in the Alt History however is …. How do you want to respond to Turtle Bay incident? - where the choices are ....
1. No Navy, No PT retrofit Dropships – thus you start a Kamikaze Nuclear War with big wing attack groups;
2. No Navy, however you do have retrofitted Dropships and you allow some kind of non-nuclear ship killer missile that can be fired by an aerospace fighter (same rules as Alamo) and are introduced the same time as those for ‘Mech's artillery missile - introduce big wing attack groups;
3. Go back to when the Helm Memory Core was found and say in 3042 (approx.) the totality of naval knowledge was once more available to the IS – thus by 3050 and the Clan invasion, Naval engagements can be once more a reality + big wing attack groups; and
4. Somehow you slot in the ratification to the Ares Convention and have naval / big wing attacks outside planetary objects that have civilians in them.
The choice is there to make… for each house group.
As for the Achilies made in the CC –in my Alt. the CC no longer exists, it is now part of the FC.
However as per the 3057 Technical Readout Pg. 38 … stated that …. At present, the Draconis Combine maintains the largest quantity of these …. Achilles Class Dropships…
So we can say then that both the FC and the DC in my Alt. History are using a retrofitted PT craft – and by using my PT stopgap could have these Dropships with Naval Lasers and Capital OS Missiles
As for the canon stating they were having problems with technology as to replacing ‘Mechs – then why were there so many new ‘Mech / Vehicle / VTOL / Aerospace Fighter / Power Armour etc. Designs post 3055 and on wards ….? Either you say you are having problems and there is nothing new – just mass produce all the old designs or there isn’t a problem and technology is on the upswing …. However, I did say that the IS is changing to a war footing as per America WW2 – this is effectively everything that can be is being converted to a war production plant – and everyone who can is being trained for a war armaments productions plant – plus the naval shipyards (as per the Victory Ships of WW2) are now undergoing mass production.
Plus when you add in the procurement department of every great house stipulating guidelines as to procurement requests (as they do now).
Thus in all reality when you combine all of these factors and the new EGM League to spread new omni-'Mech technology throughout the IS, yes I am confident that the IS can mass produce the quantity as stipulated in my 15 years assessment - a min of 100 to max of 250 new RCTs by the end of the 15 years.
As for the game rules … they do love to contradict physics constantly don’t they …. You have a canon story that says you can use a sledgehammer and a spike to pierce an elemental helmet as well as a spike falling from the roof with a weight behind it to trap / pierce him against the wall and yet say a 50 cal round will not penetrate (as it is being used by the IS infantry and heaven forbid the IS infantry are armed with a weapon that can take out the game developer’s beloved elementals …. (heavy of the Sarcasm)).
This is why I placed them in you cannot have a story that demonstrates it is possible to penetrate their armour and then turn around and say no that’s not possible with a weapon that can strike with over a couple thousand times more times kinetic force and with the pin loading necessary of (like a stiletto shoe on the floor) an armour piercing round and say no you can’t do that ….
This again shows the game developers biased attitude towards the clans.
Either you obey the rules of physics or you just give up go totally and adopt a pure Sci-fiction story. Thus I want my anti-gravity fortresses and warships that can land on planets and fly in the atmosphere to engage targets on the ground … you cannot pick and choose when it comes the physics of the game … MAKE A CHOICE and stick with it!!!!!!!!
That includes Nuclear weapons - change the rules to make them explode with the correct force, change them to a new HE explosive or throw them out of the game - the thermal energy of a Tc Nuke is greater than the sun! so one Alamo hit would kill any warship.
QUOTE: “Even the DC is not the ultimate dictatorship that can tell all companies to make this or that. Suggesting something like the FC or the FWL could is foolish”.
Oh, please …..
Can I please reiterate – please read how the American military procurement system works – especially as to guidelines they set as to what the basic minimums are.
FC and FWL military procurement department would say to the corporations – Request a new Omni-Mech to fulfil 'this task' – then they would then go into specifics – such as - the pod space and the pod itself for each weapon system must have the the following dimensions and must use the following locking systems and cable ports (the same as the Clans use) so that if a Clan pod are captured they can be used immediately by IS omnis whilst on operation against the clans.
The Corporations would then have to follow these guidelines – if they don’t then they are not in the running for the procurement contract.
Simple.
Yes, Large corporations do have some leeway when it comes to contacts however usually every single one of these procurement contracts have some point that is inviolate…
Such as for the -35 Joint Strike Fighter – what if they changed how the missiles are attached to the fighter so that only 'their' missile could be used rather than the standard locking mechanism that allows for all types of missiles to be used by the fighter? What then? …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/13/19 06:36 AM)
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ghostrider
06/13/19 11:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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Again. This thread is not about the alt. This is not about how to 'fix' the story that you don't like. This is about the canon battle of Tukayyid, and if it was a victory for the IS. So arguing the alt does this or that is partial threadjacking of this topic. The alt should not even have the clan invasion, so this is kind of pointless.
Now for responses. Anytime a civilian attacks DCMS personnel, the response should be execution of the person and their family according to how the game portraits Bushido. Yet that does not happen with the resistance fighters in the FRR region when they were part of the Combine. So before pushing the warship response, deal with that.
Total war production wasn't used often in the succession wars. And that was when capitals of 2 realms were threatened. The FS and LC was in a horrible position. The LC moved the capital to Tharkad, while the FS was able to push the DC back. Talk about hobbling forces... the massacre on Kentares did that to the DC. Lowered moral for the DCMS, and enraged the FS citizens. Without that, the FS would have fallen.
Now new designs coming out in 3055. How much longer was that then pushing the new equipment in 3049? Basically back before they had an idea of what omni technology was. Some of the new designs were in process before the clans invaded. They were pushed when it happened.
I am not disagreeing that IS omnis should have been produced in greater numbers. I just see the companies not wanting to risk funds on an (for the IS) untested technology. Few understood it.
An issue with the spike. The weight of it, broke thru the armor, yet did not kill the trooper. The hammering did not cause the initial breech, but pushed it in to finally kill the trooper. And as was said in another thread, the writers do things at times that the rules don't really allow. I agree that this should not have happened, but they needed something to be exciting and allow normal civilians to defend themselves.
If the DC was the ultimate dictatorship, then no one at all would even attempt to sell arms and munitions to rebels. Well DC manufacturers. The coordinator would have changed out dropships that were built inside the DC, as well as even jumpships, as well as tanks, mechs, fighters and so on. Even second and third hand sellers wouldn't touch it. The black market would not exist. But they do.
As a side note, one of the books suggests the combine's electronics industry is sub par.
The missile example is why Omni tech is better then the fixed weapons issue. Most, if not all manufacturers have their own design. The game just doesn't make you keep track of missiles needed for Holly verses Harpoon or other makers. They do explain the ac sizes and what they compare to in todays world. An ac 5 isn't one size. The engines are all the same size and shape from GM, Vlar and such. Yet the torsos they go in are completely different. Some engines would not fit in some mechs, but you can change fit them. In reality, you would have to redesign the torso or the engine. Something that isn't possible in the field.
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Wick
06/14/19 10:23 PM
45.43.104.179
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>>> Consider – where you are going to place these 9,700 individuals jobs, increase in food allocations etc – have a look at the Russian (Communist era) 5 year plan – the question is can the local administration continually accept this additional population upswing?
So Clan society is operating fine at a 100:100 birth to death ratio, but somehow collapses at 104:100? The failed sibko rate just isn't large enough to endanger Clan socioeconomics. Not one bit. Surely the freebirth rate is higher than 104:100 or they'd have never grown to the population sizes they're at. (Which, upon looking back into WoK I cut the average Clan population about in half - most clans are in the 60-100 million range which makes the truebirth contribution to population growth more like 2% than 4%.) Furthermore, the Communists had no jobs to offer and an insufficient amount of arable land; the Clans can always use more farmers, builders, and miners, and on most worlds, have a surplus of land to support such efforts.
>>> As for why you can’t produce 100 sibkos per year – available resources sounds like a good excuse
You can't accept 20-40 iron wombs constructed per year but arguing same Clan must produce more than 300 'mechs, elemental suits, aerospace fighters, and sometimes vehicles to keep up with loss? Why is production of a half a dozen combat units every week possible but not a single iron womb? I just can't accept that a society heavily geared toward the goal of producing a superior Warrior genome can't accomplish a 100 sibko generation rate per year. There's going to be more than enough iron wombs, more than enough genetic material, more than enough Scientists, Technicians, and Laborers to ensure the embryos and children are appropriately cared for and mentored, more than enough former Warriors for training, and as shown above the overall impact to housing, food, and care are minimal. What other resource could possibly be preventing the Clans from meeting this goal?
>>> He needs time for these babies born in 3052 to become warriors by 3066-7 when he is expecting the IS to resume Total War once more.
Again, Ulric and the Wolves are not waiting that whole time without reinforcement. He should get roughly 300 in 3053, roughly 300 more in 3054, etc. That math suggests he'll get about 4500 new warriors between Tukkayid and the end of the truce. That's enough to replace about 2/3 of of the Wolf touman (and matches up quite well to that roughly 20-year timeframe of typical Warrior usefulness.) Things are not so dire in 3052 that Ulric has lost 2/3 of this forces and needs the full 15 years to recover. Perhaps Ulric and the Wolves were losing more than 300 per year and were falling behind their normal sibko graduation rates, but a couple of years at most would have been all he needed to be back to full strength personnel-wise, not 15 years. By canon terms, losses incurred during the Refusal War did much more damage to Clan Wolf (and Jade Falcon) than the invasion losses did. Clan Wolf was not remotely at risk for absorbtion in 3052 - they were by the end of 3057.
You're not wrong that there's some major holes in the Clan Invasion stories, but a sufficient Warrior replenishment rate is absolutely not one of them.
Also,
>>> and nothing has shown me the Clans have any base security elements
Dropships. If there was any risk of being attacked by snipers, they could just load up in the dropship. No infantry rifle is getting through that armor.
>>> I am confident that the IS can mass produce the quantity as stipulated in my 15 years assessment - a min of 100 to max of 250 new RCTs by the end of the 15 years.
This may not be too farfetched from a construction standpoint, post-Helm Memory Core. Using 100 RCT estimate and assuming infantry are more or less free, that works out to only about 800 mechs and 3600 vehicles per year. That much is well within acceptability. I have some concerns about being able to move that much material from factories to Clan front-lines without serious damage to economies like what happened to the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth during the Fourth Succession War by coercing many of their commericial jumpships into transport roles. There may simply not be enough jumpships or dropships to not just move that many units to the front-lines in 15 years but to then support a counter-invasion force for 5-10 more years, and jumpships just aren't built at fast enough rates in the 31st century to make much difference in 15-25 year timeframes. (And many of those yards would have to choose between building transport jumpships or warships.)
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ghostrider
06/15/19 04:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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I would think the clans limit their production, to keep blood names a sought after thing. 800 was the start when Alexander created the clans. 40 trueborns can carry a blood name. Phelan, because of the writers, is the only one I know of that is free born in the invasion era that had a blood name.
I am sure they had a of the iron wombs to get their warrior population up to par right after the civil war. So why is it so difficult to think they put alot of them in storage?
Oh yeah. It is to justify the need for a rewrite, which isn't going to happen in the canonverse. If they do without fixing the rules, it will just have the same holes, only a different way of doing some things.
Also, the 300 is average, not what each clan gets. The larger ones will get more warriors then the smaller ones. Waste would be the key here.
Building the machines to fill the wanted numbers does seem to be an issue. In canon, they did not replace a large chunk of what was lost in the 3039 war. The alt should not even be discussed here if you use the first League alt timeline. So many things would not be here, it isn't even funny.
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Wick
06/15/19 08:19 PM
45.43.104.179
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Actually its 25 bloodheritages per bloodname, and originally 40 bloodnames per Clan.
While almost always a trueborn, freeborns are eligible to compete for a bloodname, so long as his or her birth mother was a trueborn (as names are derived matrilineally.) Having a trueborn father as proof of "genetic purity" is probably also a requirement for all but the most liberal of Clans, but its not clear if that's merely a preference or actual law like it is with the mothers. Diana Pryde is the preeminent example of a bloodnamed freeborn, but is often misunderstood as inheriting the rights from her father (Aiden Pryde) when its actually from her trueborn mother, Peri (of the same sibko as Aiden, and therefore eligible for the Pryde bloodname herself had she remained in the Warrior caste.) Jaime Wolf could therefore have never been bloodnamed, as he was ineligible for his father's Vickers surname, and his mother was a freeborn who had no rights to one. (Note: First generation sibkin could compete for either father or mother's bloodnames, if different, otherwise only the female's names would have persisted, but this is a moot point by the invasion timeframe.)
The Kell bloodname is a writer's invention. FASA backed it though and made up rules about what a Khan could do if splitting their Clan into two (as later happened with the Jade Wolves and Stone Lions, albeit without introducing new bloodnames.) Its inferred that as a new Clan, the Exiled Wolves could only have 40 bloodnames at most, not the entire 100 or so names available to the entire Wolf Clan at the time, and with Kell being one of them, it would mean they took no more than 39 classic names with them.
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