ghostrider
07/01/19 12:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession,
Wrong. The clans were all warden when formed The crusaders seized power after the clans were formed. This is a deviation from norm.
Then again, the crusaders would have just destroyed the wardens when they could. The warden way is weak. Defense is no for a warrior, but a coward. Or did that some how get lost in this translation?
Also, all the clans have wardens and crusaders in them. Yet none of the clans wiped them out. Explain this one.
Second. The Prince had destroyed a little over a lance with his Battlemaster before the walking wounded showed up. But that is mech forces. This does not mention the vehicles or infantry. Which we know infantry were guarding the NAIS. They were the ones to finally stop the last commandos from comstar.
Thru out history, there have been more then a few times were warrior driven cultures followed a non warrior. So the attempts to say it doesn't happen is wrong.
However what he forgot is that cultural norms are passed down by the parents to the children and then subsequently to their children – we are all trapped by the historical and cultural norms that out progenitors install in us as children - how many of us remember the songs that were sung to us as children or the stories that were told to us about our cultural heroes – thus there will ever be a Davion, Kurita, Steiner, Marik, Liao and Cameron characteristics within the mix, that will rise up now and again.
Then the clans would never have become the way they are. The warriors would never have surrendered to Kerensky's vison, as well as the civilians according to this statement. And for clearing up a misfact, Cameron characteristic wouldn't be there as the story says no known Cameron blood ties survived the Amaris war, that left with the exodus.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Now. With changing how the exodus road, and even just some of the 3025 era for the alts become laughable to even try to follow anything canon.
The exodus idea means nothing of the first war happens, so anything coming after it is gone. Didn't happen.
Possible reasons. The planets and even regions near the league may well have joined them, and not a single one of them wasn't force into the house they were in. They would have also suffered from Amaris's forces.
Two. None of the houses helped bring about peace, so this shows most there, they were not a priority. This does lead to the first one, so I can agree it might just be a sub cause.
The exchange of planets that happened during the first war didn't happen. The invasion used nukes and bombardments to remove defenders so the troops could move on quickly. Without that, the main drives, such as the DC nearly destroying the FS wouldn't have happened. So alot of the marriages and births would have been different. None of those ruling today would be born into the situation they were.
Three. The industries were not destroyed to the point of scraping by for spare parts, meaning the entire losses of the first war would not have happened. With this, there may never have been a break and the entire succession wars may well have been one long war.
3025 and beyond.
Saying the writers screwed up and allowed the CC to remain yet doing the same thing with the alt, only at a later time frame is following that stupid story line. Sun Tzu and Kali would have been hunted and killed. If not by the FC/FWL, then some of their own people. The DC would not have allowed Kali into their borders and her ties to the Thugee were sure to bring them into the DC.
The end of the FC civil war. Katherine would have been killed no matter what. Even a lone soldier would have put a bullet thru her skull to avoid her getting away with her crimes. Even if it meant dying immediately afterwards. Victor probably would have done it himself, giving in to the fact she sent the assassin against Omi. The DC would use the same thing. They may well have even give over a few worlds to soothe the FC people for it.
Even Heimdall could be used. She destroyed millions of lives with her games, and grab for power. Only one, claiming to work alone would do so.
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Wick
07/01/19 05:48 PM
45.43.104.179
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More on the "on par" statement:
NUMBERS:
Field Manual ComStar, p 14 (3052): ComStar redeployed the equivalent of 144 combined arms regiments to Tukayyid.
Objective Raids, p 13-43 (3054): AFFS, 56 regiments; LCAF, 131 regiments; DCMS, 60 regiments; FWLM, 74 regiments; CCAF 29 regiments; SIMF, 9 regiments.
Granted this is after the invasion and represents about 50 traditionally AFFS regiments reassigned the Lyran state command to help guard the Clan border, but its obvious that ComStar fielded a larger military than any single house by a fair margin, and was only challenged by the combined AFFC.
EXPERIENCE:
I don't think its any secret that the ComGuards were exceptionally green and in this regard a poor match for the mostly regular/veteran House militaries, let along the elite Clans.
COMPOSITION:
ComGuard had much better technology than the Houses, mostly Star League-era stuff, and all very well maintained. The Clan stuff would still be better though. Also, ComGuards maintained a large aerospace component - a dedicated Level III for each Level IV, or 1/6 of their forces. The House militaries are more like 5-8% aerospace, and generally reserve those units for garrison duty or major planetary assaults, making them greener than the ground forces.
TACTICS:
ComGuards, either guarding an HPG facility or at Tukayyid were playing the role of an entrenched defender, which is the strongest military position. They'd have strong aerospace superiority to the House militaries, and competitive to the Clans. (Tyra Miraborg and her 15 minutes of fame aside, the Inner Sphere powers were totally overwhelmed by Clan aerospace forces in every engagement.)
So with raw numbers, superior position and control of the skies, its quite possible the ComGuards could make up for their lack of experience to compete with the House militaries. Focht knew this and played to his military's strengths at Tukayyid, making his forces the defender in all cases with superior ammunition supply and logistics. The Clans brought 25 galaxies (roughly equivalent to 100-125 regiments in battle value), which should have been enough, but the Clans weren't used to fighting long, drawn out battles over the course of days, and all but the Wolves were running short of ammo after a day or two. ComGuards took a beating early, but as the Clans ran out of ammo and stretched their supply lines too far, their experience and weaponry advantages were curtailed. Only the Wolves were savvy enough to foresee this outcome, and struck with heavily energy-weapon configurations. The other clans just didn't prepare smartly for the coming battle (and the home Clans would have roasted them for it.) So despite being green, ComGuards won mostly by surviving a battle of attrition thanks to having more ammo on hand, more quickly able to repair minor damage, and continuing to put up resistance from fortified positions. Remember that the Clans didn't fight until all dead; Ulric and Focht were watching each battle unfold and mutually agreed when a Clan was no longer capable of taking the objective. When each Clan other than the Wolves were losing 40-50% of their offense through ammunition shortages, that tipped the scales. It didn't matter that the ComGuards were green or had inferior equipment. They were able to make more of their equipment last longer and had the superior position. They didn't need to beat the Clanners as much as outlast them.
I don't see the home Clans as doing anything but accusing the invading Clans (sans Wolf) of being exceptionally stupid at Tukayyid. No plague or curse to blame the failure upon. Just poor tactics. Perhaps its a hindsight accusation for the home Clans to make against the invaders, but its hard to argue. Maybe if every Clan had fought at Tukayyid and they all got humiliated, there wouldn't be any fighter-pointing and it can be blamed on some kind of plague/curse, but you can't abjure them all. I find it more likely the 10 home Clans just think of the six failing Tukayyid clans as weak and stupid as opposed to cursed or sick. And if you're weak and stupid, we're going to attack you, not defend your incompetence by building a wall between us.
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Requiem
07/01/19 05:52 PM
1.158.130.13
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What is considered “Normal” changes over time within all societies!
For the Clans, initially the Normal was a warden philosophy. However, over time this Normal shifts to either a Right Wing or Left Wing philosophy / politically – have a look at the policies of any Government over time the initial philosophy of what is important now is not the same as the philosophy of a hundred years ago.
Italy - Roman 2,000 years ago - 1,000 Dark Age - Renaissance era - the Italy of today.
When comparing a Clans “Normal” it must be done within a specific time-frame – it is therefore a mistake to compare the Clans of the 3050s with that of its inception.
Yes, there are Wardens and Crusaders within every Clan, however how does the leaders, the Khan and the sa-khan, become the leaders and how do they impose their will - as an example consider America Republicans / Democrats – Australia Labour / Liberal – majority rule – can it be said that there is a democracy for the Warrior Leadership? Otherwise mass trials of Position?
And yet within some the Clans philosophical debates this became a rift ….. and the rift became ...
Clan Wolf – Clan Wolf in Exile ... the Clan splits in two.
Clan Cloud Cobra and Fire Mandrill – factionalism into Crusader / Warden groups within their own Clan.
Clan Coyote – the rift got so bad it could have brought about their absorption. Eight entire Blood-name houses were eliminated because of the strife – the Blood Scandal.
Clan Ice Hellion – with the Warden-Dragoon Compromise they were so outraged they were going to launch an invasion of their own – thus producing a Trial of Grievance – thus a civil war ensured.
The Price and the Battle at NAIS
Semantics, your equating security guards within NAIS as fighting alongside the prince? I was under the belief it was MechWarrior within a ’Mech with that of another MechWarrior within a ’Mech – as this is how you usually look at it isn’t it?
So, did any of the infantry use anti-mech weapons / tactics during the battle? All I read concentrated on the infantry within the building fighting other infantry – ie. two separate engagements – one within the building – infantry – one outside the building – ‘Mechs.
Since when has any “Warrior-Culture” Battletech Clan followed a Non-Warrior / had a non-warrior Khan?
Cultural norms within society – missing the point – it is an undertone within society…. When growing up people of one society will in-still upon their children certain beliefs that represent the cultural norms. Example – Many native tribes have oral histories that is passed down through the generations – Japan – the Peach Boy – many Anglo-Saxon’s align with tales from King Arthur -China – the Monkey King etc. The question I ask is how many of these stories survived and were then re-told even in the Clans Domain in 3050 and beyond? My bet would be quite a few as they underpin our cultural and historical norms – what we consider as right and wrong / how we view the world around us as a society.
Yes the Clan’s main ethos of Mongol – Samurai – China society was to supposed to become the dominant belief system – however this view is predominately a warrior view. However, how many of the old Religions survived within the Clans and how many tales of their for-bearers also remain? It is to these that underpin so much of each societies values.
This is also a main error in the writing – it is quite clear from the pedestrian writing the developers of the game do not have a clear understanding regards this fact. If they did they would have realized that the repressive culture of the true born upon the free born should have produced more than one civil war between the two groups. The scientists rising up virtually on their own is a clear representation that the writers / developers have a very plebeian understanding of what they have created. There are many great writers / intellectuals from many countries if only they had discussions with more intellectuals the game would not have had as many issues as it does, as well as a level of writing that is continually targeted for a young teenager and has yet to grow up as many of supporters have.
As space operas go this one has way too many issues with it, a lack of continuance that makes the entire story very jerky as well as being overly too simplistic at times, and in more than one occasion a very badly thought out plot development is introduced where the scenarios presented are quite contrived and make little to no sense whatsoever.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 07:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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When comparing a Clans “Normal” it must be done within a specific time-frame – it is therefore a mistake to compare the Clans of the 3050s with that of its inception.
If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession,
So which statement isn't correct? The fact the clans changed from the beginning, and weren't destroyed? Or that the clans would destroy any that changed from the norm? There are crusaders and wardens in ALL of the clans. Even the Falcons and Vlad's wolves. Plus there are more then a few comparisons put up that compare the old clans to the new era.
Since when has any “Warrior-Culture” Battletech Clan followed a Non-Warrior / had a non-warrior Khan?
So now you clarify this. Your statement wasn't about clans but history of warrior cultures, including ancient Japan, Mongol and others. They did follow non warriors as they were children of the leaders. Not all, but they were there. Technically Critchall wasn't a warrior anymore. His skill had faded as he tried to keep control of the Falcons thru politics.
Do you really think the capital of the FS doesn't have units stationed at the NAIS, or a quick way to get there? Even those wounded infantry would have been there, that came in with the other wounded. Oh yeah. The FS was stupid about security. They didn't have several RCTS on the world. Infantry protect buildings. Mechs protect regions. But that would mean understanding what the RCTs actually do. Well any militia and such for that fact.
You are suggesting the trueborn culture was how the clans got their start? That the entire exodus force wasn't trueborns but freeborns that started it as the clans were made, and it wasn't trueborns that made the repressive society, but continued it and made it worse.
Do us all a favor and drop anything canon, because it just doesn't work. The same issues are showing up in the alt by trying to use anything canon is showing thru.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 08:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession,
By this very definition, the crusaders would:
One. Never allow sibko member with warden sympathizes to even try a trial of position in their clan, as it would violate their visions. They would be destroyed before this happens.
Two. Would never take a bondsman that is a warden for the very same reason. In addition, they are all weak anyways. So why waste the effort to retrain them.
Third. Would have been in a long standing war just to eliminate the threat.
Next. By hobbling the clans you are doing the same thing you accuse the writers of doing. Making 'their choice' be the stronger of the warring factions.
On top of this, the lack of casualties from the 3039 war, would have meant far more troops to counter the clan invasion, meaning they would have been stopped sooner, and not needed comstar to be written in to do so.
By your ideas of removing the invading clans, the home clans would never have allowed the invasion clans to compete for the il-clan without them. If forced to stay behind, as soon as the invasion stalled, the home worlds would have been a feeding frenzy of trials of possession, as the front line clans were weak and failures. So this alone remove canon from this point.
The perfect changes to the story isn't so perfect. To say that, means ignoring alot of things, just as the accused writers supposedly did in their version of the games history.
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Requiem
07/02/19 12:57 AM
1.158.130.13
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Wick,
NUMBERS:
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
So, what ever happened to these figures?
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
QUOTE: I don't see the home Clans as doing anything but accusing the invading Clans (sans Wolf) of being exceptionally stupid at Tukayyid.
Let me just say three words – Politics and Opportunism and Greed – What is the one desire almost all of the Home Clans want? Is it not to become a part of the Invasion and does not the Invading Clan’s defeat at Tukayyid give the Home Clans the right to question their competency.
Being stupid was never an excuse the Clans would tolerate.
However being able to exploit the current situation – being able to gain a measure of revenge, as well as access to their territory and to expand their standing.
Sorry, but I cannot see how many would not take up this chance, one way or another this political situation must be used to benefit the Home Clans over that of the invader Clans so that they can become stronger and more wealthy than they currently are.
Ghostrider,
Both of the above statements are correct at the same time – norms change and it is against these changing norms that they are judged.
Warrior Cultures follow the rule of succession – and as such as long as the child ruler is brought up within the warrior tradition and is able to demonstrate strength, cunning, the ability to be vicious on the battlefield they will be adopted into the “Warrior Lodge”.
Question:- What was the ultimate fate of Critchall who killed him and what was the chare levelled against him?
Warden Vs. Crusader – is this not why the Ice Hellions ended up in a civil War – is this not why the Wolf became two separate entities – is this not why there were so many battles of grievance during this age?
And I would not put it past Crusaders who were assigned to sibko training would remove the weak from the fold through a “training accident”.
How am I hobbling the Clans –Am I not suggesting to let the Clans be what they were supposed to be a Mongol – Samurai – China blended warrior, and as such given this blended psychology would they not act as I have suggested? i.e. Let the Clans be the Clans!
When defeated in such a disgraceful manner how could they still be allowed to be considered as an invading Clan – if they wish to retain this title and honour should they not prove their worthiness?
The Canon story can be said to ignore their culture as well as their psychology at this point – all I am suggestion is allowing the Clans to be the Clans.
What is so wrong with what I am suggesting? Sorry but I do not understand.
Having those Invader Clans who failed at Tukayyid to once again prove they are worthy of the honour of being considered to be an Invader Clan is, in my opinion, a very Clan like action.
The only question is where should these trials take place and how many units are involved to determine your Clan is still worthy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 01:27 AM
66.74.60.165
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is this not why the Wolf became two separate entities
Did you really read the refusal war? The two separate entities came from the fact that Vlad and the crusaders didn't die as Ulric tried to do. It was not a civil war in the Wolves. Had Vlad died, the wolves would have ceased to exist in the invasion forces. How do you get anything other then that?
How am I hobbling the Clans
Destroying them, so they can not rise to take out the IS. Making sure they do not carve up the IS when the Republic time. Much as was accused of the 3039 war.
As a side note, the writers were not for the clans, because if they were, Comstar would never have gotten to challenge the clans. More then 7 clans would have invaded, and there would not have been any stopping them at all. If nothing else, they were pro FS/FC. The fact the FS survived do to stupidity on the part of the DC with the Kentares massecre. Then taking out the CC from being a major player.
When defeated in such a disgraceful manner how could they still be allowed to be considered as an invading Clan – if they wish to retain this title and honour should they not prove their worthiness?
They got beat because most followed the clans ways of fighting. To be honest, the other clans would NOT have allowed only 4 then 7 clans to invade. This puts them completely out of the running to be Il-clan. Not something a warrior nation would allow. Ever. Twisting cultures to fit the desired effect, and suggesting they not do so long before or far after doesn't work either.
Having those Invader Clans who failed at Tukayyid to once again prove they are worthy of the honour of being considered to be an Invader Clan is, in my opinion, a very Clan like action.
This would mean challenging the invading clans in a face to face match. Which more then a few home clans would never do, as they would get beaten. And yet suggesting they are cowards and would abjure those very clans from the safety of the home worlds while a majority of those clans fighting forces are in the IS really shows knowledge of honor systems.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 01:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Canon story can be said to ignore their culture as well as their psychology at this point – all I am suggestion is allowing the Clans to be the Clans.
You had said a few times in previous threads, you did not understand the clans and their thoughts.
The mongols did not attack even up. They hit with all forces they had, and destroyed everything in their way. Nothing in the clans suggests this sort of behavior. They tended to hit with sneak attacks as well. Where is this in the mongol writings?
And if they were so belligerent, then there could never be an agreement to anything. With this, they could never have gotten past the civil war, much less rebuilt their society and improved on it.
The clans would not have invaded the IS if they were being clans before the war.
When defeated in such a disgraceful manner
How is being beaten by a larger force disgraceful? Did they some how just fall all over themselves and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn? Did they wet their cockpit seats? Except clan Wolf, these are the same warriors that beat them out to even be part of the invasion forces. So if they got beat then the entire clans got beat.
But again. The events changed before this makes this whole ordeal a waste of energy. This would not happen, as the IS would have had far more numbers then they did. The FC/DC would have met them and driving them back. Even greater tech would have been more available.
And with this, the FC civil war would not have happened. With the clans pushed back, Victor would not have gone to the clan homeworlds, so he would not have let Katherine do the **** she did. He would never have made her Reagent of the LC part. End of story.
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Requiem
07/02/19 03:21 AM
1.158.130.13
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And here is me reading the following wiki notes ….
“The permanent split of Clan Wolf into Crusader and Warden Clans. The 'Crusader' Clan Wolf, viewed by other Clans as rightful heir to the Wolf Clan, was founded by Vlad Ward. The 'Warden' Clan Wolf-in-Exile, led by Phelan Kell”,
and
“Ulric would simultaneously cripple or kill the strongest Crusader Clan and by sending the Warden elements of the Wolves into exile and safety into the Inner Sphere, he ensured his Clan would survive. By then placing all the Crusader Wolves into his own personal Galaxy, he would force Crusader Wolf to fight Crusader Jade Falcon in a war of mutual annihilation”.
What it comes down to in the end is that the Wolf Clan split into Crusader and Warden factions!
I am destroying the Clans so they are not around in the Republic era?
First, is this not an Alt History (as per the title of the Post)?
Second, have I not made it abundantly clear that virtually everything including the Clan invasion requires a re-write and the Jihad era should be removed permanently? Thus the Republic era will never occur in my Alt History!
Sorry, but I stand by my statement the game developers have hobbled the entire story in favour of the Clans from the time they were introduced to that of 3145 and probably beyond.
- The invasion writing alone supports this when you look at all the suggested battles – pitiful game development and writing does not begin to explain the number of worlds the clans were able to capture.
- Post one year lull – where was the introduction of a Kesselring line – where was the war of attrition including vehicle units (as used in Wolcott) – why were the IS denied the use warships Dropships with Naval weapons – why were the DC not allowed to strike back post Turtle Bay with Nukes and Kamikaze – why were special forces / SOE not allowed to kidnap / kill units in the Clan’s rear – why were no units allowed to hunt for Clan Supply lines in the Periphery – And the most damming of all – why just go after one Clans (Jags) as this defies political / military understanding – and why when they were upon Huntress did they not Loot it for everything it was worth (thus allowing the IS to have weapons parity with the Clans!)
- Refusal War – why didn’t any IS forces attack at the end of this – both the Falcons and the Wolves were spent as an effective and viable military force – the LA could have very easily defeated these two clans right then and there!
- They even allowed the clans to rig the game by saying garrison units were not part of the original bid – thus they were allowed to increase their numbers and yet what about the IS forces were they given time to rebuild theirs – No – and where are the vast numbers of IS Omni mechs / vehicles / aerospace that should have been created – if only allowing those few pitiful designs as well as limiting the IS’s access to advanced weaponry is not hobbling the game in favour of the clans I do not know what is!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry but I also stand by my view of how a “warrior culture” should act in in this case – there must be a trial to prove their worth once more – it is just a question of where the trial will take place and with what forces (you do realize this could be a one galaxy (each) fight on a periphery world don’t you?).
Quote: This would mean challenging the invading clans in a face to face match. Which more then a few home clans would never do, as they would get beaten.
Do you have no faith in those Clans that remained behind – I doubt they would have the same belief – they would fight and die for the right to promote their Clan to invader status. If given the chance, no matter the circumstances behind the reason, they would take it!
As this is an Alt History can I not first ask the question as to Abjure and then ask a second question to annexe / absorption?
Sorry no the Mongols did not constantly attack with all their forces and they did not destroy everything – the great Khan was busy building, introducing reading, writing, science and the arts – they even took a bribe from their enemy not to attack for quite some time – keep reading their history.
As I have stared before
With the establishment of the Star League and the SLDF – they (the IS) would have used most of the 15 years re-arming
Victor would have made his Mother and Sister co-regents in charge of the FC. And over time Katherine would become the sole regent.
In all likelihood the Clans should have been expelled from the IS. However they would have formed a buffer state between the IS and the Clan Home Worlds.
The IS would have formed new Periphery States – sponsored by the FC and the DC as a buffer state of their own between the Clans and the IS proper.
At this state Katherine would attempt to kill Victor / take the FC throne – which would succeed – he has spent too long away fighting on the front lines and not enough time looking after he state as he should have.
Victor now resigned to his Periphery exile ream, so he begins to rebuild with those who are still loyal to him.
The story continues on from there ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again. How do they hobble their own universe?
Saying that they need to do this and that, yet only assumptions of what they had, or could do is the basis of saying they needed to do this or that. And then adding in numbers that wasn't used in THIER universe.
With the changes in place, canon is no longer anything you can follow. Events don't take place, as they would not develop along the canon routes. Just drop all canon.
Another event that would not take place without the Tukayyid fight. Learning the exodus road. Mechwarrior Trent captured the comstar agent while the Jaguars were being routed. This would not take place.
The alt is doing the same things that were said about the canon.
have I not made it abundantly clear that virtually everything including the Clan invasion requires a re-write
Then rewrite it. Don't just change a few things and think it will work out right. More and more holes show up as the story gets moving.
The whole citizens of a nation striking back at an occupier was shot down when suggested the CC would do so, but now advocated because the clans are the target.
Warrior culture was not cut and dry as the movies and shows have them.
the game developers have hobbled the entire story in favour of the Clans from the time they were introduced to that of 3145 and probably beyond.
Again. If that was true, then the LC part of the FC would have been ripped apart, no truce, and all clans would have come in. The race for terra would have named the leadership for eternity, and the idea that ANY of the clans would sit it out still doesn't register?
If nothing, invasion corridors for all, and how soon they could start would have been the fights for doing this. Not to see who would sit it out. Put that into your warrior culture of the Mongols.
As I have stared before. From this point on would not happen given the changes in the alt. Less forces destroyed in the 3039 war. More military being built and trained as all would be gearing up for the next succession war that would come. All these extra forces in the DC/FC and the FRR would benefit from this as well. That means no comstar truce. The FC/DC might be able to get their own, but I doubt it. They would removed the clans from their area, and possibly help the FRR. The comguard would be busy trying to defend comstar because their duplicity would be revealed as the two houses started taking back their lands.
So the Star League would not have been reformed.
But again. Logic is being throw out in order to push the story just like the canon story did.
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Requiem
07/02/19 06:47 PM
1.158.130.13
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Creating a plausible story line based upon the story line created by myself is in itself the removal of many of the Canon lore for that of a more robust story line.
For example the only way to remove Tukayyid from the game is to 1. Decrease the range / Damage and increase Heat of all Clan Weapons 2. Ensure the Star League is established at an earlier time frame 3. Allow the IS to begin warship production no later than 3041 4. Ensure the ComGuard become part of the SLDF upon the establishment of the Star League and the SLDF 5. Retain the original IS units as per the 20 year update book and not that of the revisionist House books that reduced their forces numbers 5. Allow attrition warfare tactics from the get go – mass attacks of hovercraft / VTOL vehicles – allow commandos / SOE etc etc.
Ensure there is an established Clan resupply lines (tonnage received) as well as Sibko graduate reinforcement numbers for the entire invasion – so that if the IS can kill the Clans quicker than they can get resupplied the Clan forces will begin to suffer due to depleted numbers – ie. their original bid was too small and they are now paying for that hubris. (as per the Canon they just assumed they had unlimited numbers of both supplies and people and never once considered this “minor” aspect for the game – biased again!)
Post one year truce – establishment of multiple “Kesselring” lines in front of the Clans utilising the tactics of Wolcott.
There should also be a reduction in the number of actual Clans – it is clearly evident that the game developers created way too many clans from the get go – by 3050 half of them should have been removed or never created in the first place. OR/- there should have been one il-Khan and il-Clan from the get go and you reduce the size of every Clan and base the scenario upon the Great Kubla Khan’s invasions, and then yes the invasion could include all the Clans from the get go. But this would also require a total revamp as to the Clan traditions / society / everything would have to change to accommodate this.
There should also be debate regarding the Clan’s home worlds location – in the interest of establishing many future wars they should be way closer to the IS than that of the Cannon writings - - Look at the 3050 deep periphery map – no more than three times this distance away – what was established is just silly in the extreme - this distance will negate the possibility of a future where the IS invades the Clan home worlds en-mass in the same manner as the Clans have with the IS
Learning the exodus road – yes I agree Trent would no longer exist – however I would consider re-introducing a new bug-eye – Mata Hari II who is able to shadow a clan resupply fleet all the back to the Clan Home Worlds with the use of bug drones that can latch onto a clan Jumpship / dropship and has “Black Box” technology incorporated into its frame.
If there are holes please elaborate.
Yes, I still contend the game developers are increasingly hobbling the game in favour of their pet Clans – The FC is ripped apart by 3145 – the Falcons new Empire – the Wolf Empire – The Cats empire (in the FWL) etc. – have a look at this era’s map it is quite clear they have allowed the game to develop so that these new empires could develop. And yet all through this Clan development there has not been one word as to how the ordinary people are suffering under a Clan society – going from a liberal democratic society to the totalitarian Clan state without even a whimper – HOBBLING THE GAME YET AGAIN!
– look at how the forces of the IS have diminished year in year out so that by 3145 the RCT of this era is barely recognisable to the RCT of 3050 era.
Look at the Canon writing as to what the Wolves did to Tharkad and the Archon. This just goes to show the level of of favouritism as well as the characters they are putting forth within all the novels etc – where is a single IS hero within the Canon story arc at this stage who can Combat the Clans?
OK the CC
They were a totalitarian state that repressed their people.
Yes the FC destroyed they ‘Mech units then went after the Capital itself.
Yes they then would have have gone “planet hopping” and put down with extreme force any Home Guard / Reserve units.
Yes they then would have put in place a more liberal government – Provided more food, more luxury goods etc.
yes there will be resistance units for many years to come however over time as the wealth of the individual increases over time so too will the number of extremism causes decrease.
Yes many would have welcomed this and a great many would have resented it – however I contend it would be either Germany or Japan WW2 scenario here – I gave them an expert in the area of finance to rule the lower half and a Lyran to rule the upper half – restoration will lead to economic prosperity slowly over the next 40 – 60 years.
And Yes I have left open the possibility of a new Liao empire – Sun Tzu and his sister Kali are alive and with their Aunt.
QUOTE: The race for terra would have named the leadership for eternity, and the idea that ANY of the clans would sit it out still doesn't register?
Can I use one of your arguments- how could they sell books if the game is won by one of the Clans?
The IS Canon Clans of 3145 can be said to be only concerned with establishing their own massive empires out of the remnants of Great Houses – they are no longer interested in Terra or becoming the il-Clan.
The story has taken on fanciful and bewildering scenarios that make no point what soever ….
Anything can be rationalized even the bizarre state of the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 09:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you honestly think the home clans would agree to the initial invasion to begin with?
A clansman would give up the right to become the leader of all clans until they died, with a legacy of his genes ruling the clans into eternity?
There is no way they would allow this. Once the 13 other clans found out they were not the main invasion, and given they all believed the 4 would succeed, there would have been a major movement before the invasion forces even left.
And worse, adding in a clan that specifically said it didn't want to participate, which would leave a slot open for others, would not happen.
So a clan civil war may start from this.
The CC had fanatically loyal people in it. Not just soldiers, but civilians as well. I will grant the belief most were people that relied on house Liao, but not all of them.
the only way to remove Tukayyid from the game
So the FC and DC having more troops at the time of the invasion would not have countered the clans so Comstar was not needed isn't a way to remove Tukayyid? Having the whole clan issue of who will actually get a chance to become the leader of all clans and have their clan be leader for all eternity isn't another?
And now to use one of your defenses. With the black box tech, they could get around comstars forges reports from worlds that were under attack or conquered. So the houses could make a counter attack, stalling the clans drive.
Can I use one of your arguments- how could they sell books if the game is won by one of the Clans?
That would work if we weren't talking about the alt. Why? Are you selling books for your alt?
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ghostrider
07/02/19 09:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Actually, they could very well sell books if one clan became il-clan. All the others decide to rip that one apart, as well as getting WOB to attack them along with all other houses. A full grand melee concept, where the IS is up for grabs. So ceding entities and such would succeed, as all with any sort of dreams of leading would create complete chaos. Even the clans doing their free for all in and out of the IS. Remove all the states and make little pacts and alliances to survive and grow. The Brewer house would eclipse the Stieners at that point, as they controlled Defiance.
The basic line of canon is they can do with their creation as wanted. Saying the only way to 'fix' this is with specific ideas. Yet those are done without knowledge of what the creators had for any sort of resources. I could say that planet x has a moon z around it that has a crystal that increases fusion power by so many factors. Is it in the creators universe? No.
Did a simple thing like finishing off the CC in 3039 remove all future canon storyline from the alt? Almost certainly.
According to your own figures, the war would have been far less damaging to all states then the DC hit. And the benefits creating more boon for the FC. This changes canon story line even further.
This would also mean there is no reason for Victor to head out to the clan home worlds as they would just fight them as they did the other houses. And this would also mean production of clan tech.
It is also likely the Dragoon meeting would not be needed, so Omi would not have personally met Victor. That could be said for all those that did, including getting the FWL to make the weapon packages. Just by doing the CC war in 3039.
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Requiem
07/03/19 03:38 AM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: Do you honestly think the home clans would agree to the initial invasion to begin with?
Warrior societies are usually (on the whole) a superstitious / deeply ingrained into a religious cult society and are dominated by their traditions and their lore – the Clans, with their totems, are no less ingrained psychologically to their way of thinking.
As they are all given over to the Cult of Kerensky to one form or other – in addition or their ‘unique’ education when it comes to topics such as ‘ethics, ‘scientific racism’ and ‘eugenics’ have been utilized to indoctrinate true-born individuals into its creed.
However when it comes down to it they are like the knights hearing the Popes call for the First Crusade. If the ‘Pope’ says invade they will invade, and like the knights of old they have but one objective in the back of their minds.
However in this case due to their “unique” philosophical outlook and the law that they all share they believe only the worthy may become part of the invasion – thus the reason for the trials to determine whom is worthy and who is not. Thus an organised ‘tourney’ is called to determine whom is worthy.
However within a warrior societies when an event occurs such as a cataclysmic disaster, such as Tukayyid where their martial prowess is called into question, this will give rise to questions as to their continued worthiness – and as such the need to hold a new ‘tourney’ - new trials to determine if their continued worthiness – if found wanting they must be removed as per their lore, law and tradition.
To go against lore, law and tradition will result in immediate abjuration from the whole.
Thus this is no way a Civil War it is a second tourney (similar in size and ferocity as the first to determine whom was initially worthy) to determine if the invading clans are still worthy of the honour that was bestowed upon them by the application of the martial prowess.
The Fall of the CC
Please re-read above – “yes there will be resistance units for many years to come however over time as the wealth (and freedom) of the individual increases over time so too will the number of extremism causes decrease”.
Tukayyid
What I am saying is the idea of having a Tukayyid peace for 15 years is a little strange and as such if the writer wanted it removed there is a combination of events a writer could use to ensure this scenario does not come the fore. One such is returning all the house units back to their original numbers before the game developers decided to hobble the IS by reducing the number of all the IS forces as evidenced from the Clan era onwards. A point I view as criminal on the part of the developers.
QUOTE: Can I use one of your arguments- how could they sell books if the game is won by one of the Clans? That would work if we weren't talking about the alt. Why? Are you selling books for your alt?
In the Canon universe – do you see any of the Clans as their empires are increasing (circa. 3145) moving towards Terra? As is this decision on the same par as their being a First Lord circa. 3040’s when the FC was in ascendant?
If one of the Clans does take Terra and declare themselves the il-Clan doesent their lore, law and tradition demand all the other clans acknowledge this – if they decide to attack this Clan and annihilate it does thin not mean they are spitting on the word (and Cult) of Kerensky?
QUOTE: The Brewer house would eclipse the Steiners at that point.
Sorry, but I do not understand what is being postulated here – why would all the Clans invade if one became the il-Clan? Especially in a post reeving society within the Clan Home Worlds?
Question: is the question of logistics – resource material / sibko numbers – within the creator’s universe? Yes – they were when it came to IS Mech production, so why when it came to the issue of the Clans this point was totally ignored? Why does the writing regarding the invasion provide the Clans with all the munitions and replacement parts they need when they need it and all the replacement personnel when they need it when it takes six months to reach the inner sphere from clan space? If they obtained IS plants to manufacture ordinance why were they not destroyed prior to capture, why was there never an SOE mission to destroy them if the Clans were so dependent upon using IS ordinance?
Hobbling the game once More?
QUOTE: The basic line of canon is they can do with their creation as wanted.
Saying it’s my bat and ball and if you don’t do what I say I am going home with my bat and ball is a little childish. What’s worse is treating your customers like they are children!
As for the idea that Victor should go to the Clan Home Worlds with his Army – all I can say is I am not surprised Katherine usurped him – rather than being the first price he wanted to play soldier – the duty of the first prince is that to his people it is in no way being at the head of the army. This is why he has capable generals.
When all is said and done Victor was a great General and yet when you compare him to great leaders (statesmen) he is a very poor excuse for a leader of a nation. It would have been far better for the FC if Katherine was give the throne and Victor was made her General - her strong right arm who would prosecute all the wars in her name. The FC would have come out in a far better place with Katherine at the hem than that of Victor at the helm or that of their brothers and sisters. She is politics personified – and only she should have been considered to have had the Tile Archon - First Princess – Machiavelli / the Borgia’s of Italy would have recognised her as a true monarch.
OK, my reasoning
3039/40 – CC defeated and absorbed into the FC;
From this time until the arrival of the Clans the number of FC units increase;
In all likelihood the FWL will enter into a military / economic alliance with the FC - due to an arranged marriage;
Canon
3050 – the Clans invade – Cannon the Clans strike deep into the IS as the IS is incapable of stopping them. The ComGuard stops them and the IS gains 15 years of Truce.
My Alt.
The Clans do in no way make it as far as they do – in all likelihood they only make half the distance the Canon story eludes to – they suffer far more casualties and many of the Clans are requesting additional Clans be allowed into the IS to elevate their logistics / replacement personnel problems they are experiencing.
For me - putting Tukayyid in or not is still an un-known at this stage.
Yes at this stage there is no reason for Victor to head to huntress.
The reformation of the Star League and the SLDF occurs – continual fighting along the border.
Two of the Clans switch sides to the Star League.
Ultimately a complete blueprint of Clan Technogy is provided to the Star League who has it distributed throughout the IS or it is acquired through reverse engineering capturing clan techs within the clan’s rear.
Over time the IS gains military technology parity with the clans and strikes against all of the Clans forcing them to retreat into the deep periphery.
New satellite realms are established (to act a buffer between the IS and that of the Clans) within the Deep Periphery by the FC, DC, FRR (Ghost Bears) and Cats.
Victor will no longer welcomed within the IS – Katherine is now in charge – he retreats into his new Periphery realm and consolidates power there as the realm grows over time.
Sorry but the Dragoon meeting would go ahead, as it is an independent event separate from the Fall of the CC, the Dragoons are still an autonomous mercenary unit who were once clans and have now thrown their lot in with the IS – the IS still needs them to explain the rules as they are interpreted by the Clans – thus the Omika / Victor meeting will still occur.
This also includes the FWL weapon packages – they are an independent event separate from the fall of the CC – and as stated above if there has been a union between the FWL and the FC then the weapons packages are still on.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 01:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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The main law is all warriors live to rule. To purposefully step back and say, no. I don't want to rule, isn't going to sit with any warrior. As stated about being the first lord in other threads, this is just the same thing. There is no way any of them would even agree to using only 4 clans. To prove yourself, you reach Terra. Otherwise, you have shown you are not worthy. It's that simple. And then to give up some of your warriors so those that 'won' are full strength?
What I am saying is the idea of having a Tukayyid peace for 15 years is a little strange and as such if the writer wanted it removed there is a combination of events a writer could use to ensure this scenario does not come the fore. What does this have to do with the alt? It is bagging on the original writing, but as the events have changed, there is no place for this. The battle should not have come to pass. Comstar should not have gotten involved with the Comguards as the nations would have more assets due to the changes in the 4th and 3039 wars.
In the Canon universe – do you see any of the Clans as their empires are increasing (circa. 3145) moving towards Terra? As is this decision on the same par as their being a First Lord circa. 3040’s when the FC was in ascendant? Actually, this is the logical outcome of the Psy-ops being done against the clans. Greed and corruption has taken hold and the leaders decided to make empires for themselves. Taking Terra was a symbol of the past. Now, you rule your area and expand. This outcome is the same as the Fiefdoms in the deep periphery that was brought forth.
QUOTE: The Brewer house would eclipse the Steiners at that point. This was suggested as the entire Battletech universe crumbles into little states and alliances. That was a suggested alt to some things, which the clans creating their little empires would be part of.
And to go against tradition and law. There is nothing saying you can not call for a trial of possession to become the il-khan once another has the title. Do you honestly think the Jaguars or Falcons would not do so if the Wolves or Bears won it? According to your take on warrior societies, no warrior would sit back and allow another to rule just because they were the first to touch land. They would fight for control. This is why most warrior societies that don't have something like Bushido in it, fail. After a while, there is no way to stop the infighting.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 02:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Victor not leaving the IS means Katherine's power base is not there. Being regent, and Victor being a distance from the FC is what gave Katherine the power to take over. It wasn't a popular uprising that did it. It was her having a powerbase and being politically sneaky.
The Dragoon meeting came about as the house leaders shown they could not stop the clans without coming together and working together. As the clans get stopped, probably before Tyra even gets into it with the Wolves, it isn't needed. And with this being change, the suicide run would probably have not happened. No year of peace to even think of having the meeting.
This is why leaving canon completely out of the new rewrite is becoming a stronger case.
And a rewrite isn't what is seems you are after. It is a reboot.
Alot of the unrealistic and logic filled holes are being kept, but moved around. The CC needs to be destroy, so the FC doesn't fight the DC, yet keeping Sun Tzu and Kali alive amounts to the same thing.
With the FWL being more friendly, your idea of Victor and Isis may come to pass, meaning Katherine has less power overall, though some in the LC would freak out about it. Omi would not have bore Victor a child, so that story line is gone. Changing events to come to the conclusion wanted, just doesn't work. Not trying to keep canon in there. To many other logic holes open up.
The alt is fine as an alt.
Saying it’s my bat and ball and if you don’t do what I say I am going home with my bat and ball is a little childish. What’s worse is treating your customers like they are children! Did you think that maybe a majority of the players like the canon verse, and you are but part of a very small group that thinks they need to be in charge of remaking it?
Do you play other games and say their story line needs to be erased and restarted?
I suspect since most I see are death match people, the clan tech was the best thing to happen to the game.
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Requiem
07/03/19 04:40 PM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: The main law is all warriors live to rule. To purposefully step back and say, no. I don't want to rule, isn't going to sit with any warrior
And yet by 3145 here we are!
QUOTE: There is no way any of them would even agree to using only 4 clans.
And yet how many invading Clans were there?
QUOTE: What does this have to do with the alt?
I was under the opinion an Alt. Universe was just that …. The ability to consider any historical point from many different options …. Even to the point of not including it in the Alt. History, and then discussing how your reasoning came to that point.
QUOTE: In the Canon universe – do you see any of the Clans as their empires are increasing (circa. 3145) moving towards Terra?
In the Canon universe the Clans will have to go through “Fortress Republic” – this is how the developers will smack the Clans around and yet not to the point the overall size of their new empire decreases to a great extent. Thus blunting the edge as it were … maybe even killing off some of the more “unique” Khans that have quite outlived their purpose (Jade Falcon / Wolf ?)
There will be many new ‘Mech / Power Armour / Aerospace / Warship etc designs coming out of Fortress Republic – this will be a given – something along the lines of the WOB ‘Mechs on steroids as well as a few new weapon systems that will put many of the Clans and the Great Houses in their place.
QUOTE: this is the logical outcome of the Psy-ops being done against the clans. Greed and corruption has taken hold and the leaders decided to make empires for themselves.
I see it as the Clans conforming (learning to live in) their new environment.
QUOTE: There is nothing saying you can-not call for a trial of possession to become the il-khan once another has the title.
And yet the way I read it once a Clan has the title they have it in perpetuity.
QUOTE: no warrior would sit back and allow another to rule just because they were the first
And then I went on to explain the importance of lore, law and tradition in keeping a unified society, have a look at the Spartans as an example of Clan Society – especially when it comes to the idea of Helots.
QUOTE: Victor not leaving the IS means Katherine's power base is not there.
I bed to differ, whilst the cat is away the mice play!, whilst Victor is away Katherine can form numerous political and economic power blocks to thwart Victor in the future. One of these power blocks was via a successful media campaign in which she be becomes the darling of the people – thus by the time Victor returns there is a popular uprising by the people to enthrone Katherine rather than an absent war mongering individual – the Star League has entered into an era of peace the people desire such ruler – they have been pre-conditioned by psychology to accept Katherine as that ruler.
No the Dragoon meeting came about because Wolf Dragoons had finally come to turms with their decision to support the infer sphere – and by doing so they provided the leaders of the Inner Sphere with the Knowledge they required to understand their new foe.
It was a way of purging past sins so that they could move forward.
As for the Kamikaze run – again this is an independent action that is in no way dependent upon a variable such as the Dragoon meeting.
If you enter the idea of a Reboot rather than a rewrite then then this gives me Carte blanche to do anything. Even to the point of killing off the Clans completely – they went on their exodus, they found a new home, the caught a rare disease they all died – The End.
Sorry I beg to differ that Keeping Sun-Tzu and Kali amounts to being unrealistic. As a parent do you not wish to keep your children safe – even rom their psychotic mother who is loosing her sense of reality each day the invasion of Sian is progressing (just like her father) and to the point where the bunker scene is beginning to appear like a suicide cults final day – thus ensuring their survival with their Aunt who can bring them up in a loving household is not the most unrealistic situation to consider.
Victor – Isis – Omika
Sometime between 3040-3050 when a formal peace treaty is announced Victor and Isis (or someone else as Thomas should have died in the assassination explosion due to the concussion waves of the explosive within a brick room) are formally engaged to one another
Clan Invasion War
Dragoons Meeting – Victor is introduced to Omika
…
Victor is triumphant the Clans are kicked out of the IS
Victor’s throne has been usurped by Katherine
Victor retreats back into the Deep Periphery
The engagement between the Victor and the Isis (?) is called off due to Victor no longer being in power.
Somehow Omika returns to Victor within the Deep Periphery ….. DC goes ballistic at this …… new story.
Where are the holes?
I agree that many of the players like the Canon – however when you go onto all the other forums out there how many of them include Alt. Histories – All of them? Thus there is a groundswell of opinion who do not like the Canon. There has never been a comprehensive census by the players as to what is good / bad and if there has been can I say it might be a little flawed considering the introduction of Jihad, Republic era etc. so calling the Alt. Universe players in the minority might be in error – they could be in the majority.
So,
How many people like the Jihad era?
How many people like the Republic era of removing your military mechs for agricultural implements and having only Two mechs on one world?
How many people like the Dark age?
Sorry but the ideas that have been postulated by the game designers over recent years appear to be getting a little silly in my opinion as well as incredibly biased and one sided in many of the wars to the point the game designers have lost my respect as to what is been coming out over the last couple of years.
With the role playing games I am into the world is how I want it to be (DM restrictions though) - If I want to go to this city and do this and that - I can – If the wider universe does something silly I do enter into discussions as to why I believe it is silly. The fighting should only be a small, yet integral part of the game, what is more important is the people along the way and how you achieve your objectives within the game – you do not need to use your mech every second of the day to blow things up to achieve your objective.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 07:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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I bed to differ, whilst the cat is away the mice play!, whilst Victor is away Katherine can form numerous political and economic power blocks to thwart Victor in the future. Where is Victor going? Not the clan homeworlds as the clans would not be the big threat they were in canon. They would be held to a small area and slowly pushed be into the periphery with the increased units that weren't destroyed in 3039. Or did you change this again?
No the Dragoon meeting came about because Wolf Dragoons had finally come to turms with their decision to support the infer sphere. They did this when the refused to return to the clans. Then refused the recall, which was showing the clan council they were not going to come back. How you got the meeting was them coming to terms with their decision is far fetched.
As for the Kamikaze run – again this is an independent action that is in no way dependent upon a variable such as the Dragoon meeting. The kamikaze run is what allowed the meeting to take place. The year of peace from losing the il-khan, and electing a new one. So you are right, the run didn't depends on the Dragoons, but the meeting was done during the lull. So how did this get backwards?
If you enter the idea of a Reboot rather than a rewrite then then this gives me Carte blanche to do anything. Even to the point of killing off the Clans completely – they went on their exodus, they found a new home, the caught a rare disease they all died – The End.
Your game is yours. But saying the canon is wrong because you don't like it, then keeping with it is the issue. Making the same plot holes but only with those against your favorite is doing the same thing in reverse.
The entire argument with the alts and such is the fact the canon did not fit your views, and that ONLY your views could save it. Dump it entirely and make your own universe. Just stop the garbage of saying the alt is the ONLY way the game should evolve for all.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 07:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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How are all the alt histories portrait?
They say their way is the only way it should be? Do they stick tightly to the canon story, so it is nothing more then a small area being changes while the larger picture remains?
Maybe looking at some of the player companies will show you how to do it. Nothing in them says the canon is junk and says only their way works.
They have their little niche and that is it. They don't become the Star Lord or il-khan. They don't change the borders themselves.
Crossroadian alt is the only one I have even the slightest clue on, and very little of it says the canon is horrible. They just took ideas they had and built on it. I don't agree with some of the tech and units they have, but they haven't gone to Terra and destroyed the IS with it. To my knowledge, they keep to their small area of the periphery, and don't really interact much with the IS.
And if the other boards have them on there, then suggest this on there.
Where are the holes?
Other then the periphery realm, it is the same nonsense of the canon, as you so love to put it.
But instead of fighting on the 'northern' edge of the IS, it is now in the periphery. This changes the fact that the clans can no longer hit the LC and such. Does it end the endless wars?
No. It makes is so the clan fight isn't important to IS politics anymore. It is a side show, just like the CC in the alt.
Yet the reasons why things are done, ring the same way canon does, but because it was done by someone outside the developers, therefor it is much better.
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Requiem
07/03/19 11:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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When the SLDF engages all the remaining belligerent Clans within the Inner Sphere it will not be just a question of fighting them to the edge of the periphery and then stopping. The SLDF are going to fight all the way through the Deep Periphery until they reach one end just beyond Nueva Castile and extending all the way beyond the planet of Ghent on the other. This entire area is to become a new buffer state between the Clans and the Inner Sphere in the event they decide to return.
(Nt. This entire area, in the future, will become Victor’s new realm)
Sorry but I do not consider the Clans expulsion from the IS to be a hole – it is an opportunity to expand the game beyond its current canon stagnation.
However for all this new (Victor’s) ream purportedly aims to protect the Inner Sphere from a second invasion the clans can still flank this and attack either the Lyran half of the FC or the DC . However to do this effectively the Clans will have to establish a new supply line that will be susceptible to attack by Victor. Thus forcing them (the Clans) even further around – and subsequently increasing the time taken to resupply any invasion even further from the original 5 / 6 months to something like 7 / 9 months depending on how far you go around the periphery to form your new attack corridor.
The logistics of such an invasion will therefore be a nightmare to establish.
The wars therefore will not end they will just become more complicated to establish if an IS Vs. Clan War. However a Victor’s new realm Vs. Clan shouldn’t be a problem.
Though the issue of distance still poses a problem between the IS and that of Clan Space. If the game is looking at an Inner Sphere invasion of the Clan Home Worlds to get around this, and establish future wars between the IS and the SLDF, there can be only one solution a new Jump-Ship engine that will double the original Jump distance and double the amount of Dropships transportable for a similar size / weight etc as an existing warship engine.
The introduction of which could half the time between the two realms and would require whole new tactics to consider when defending / attacking.
So no the issue of a second Clan war will be a continual problem / continual war with the new Star League until such a time as the Inner Sphere invades Clan space, way into the future and they destroy their realm once and for all or the Clan people finally rise up in mass and kill of the entire Clan Culture (including their eugenics program).
However I would like to say within the Canon universe the Home Clans are a side show for the IS and they have always been a side show. It was only when they invaded did they cease being a side show.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
07/03/19 11:49 PM
45.43.104.179
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>>> "the removal of many of the Canon lore for that of a more robust story line."
Debatable. As we've shown, there's some logic problems. At least regarding the Hadrian's Wall idea is the fact that the Crusaders of the mid-3050s would have never allow it. I thought Tukayyid, or just after, was the point of divergence for this alt, but now you're having to retcon things earlier to change which Khans are in power to make it a feasible solution. Other threads are talking about total wars, changes to Fourth Succession War and War of 3039, etc and now that seems to be part of this Hadrians Wall what-if as well. If you're moving your point of divergence to the early 3000s (or earlier?), then maybe Tukayyid never even takes place, so its a moot argument. It's unclear what part of canon is used in your alt, and what parts aren't. You've got the same Clans, but they aren't of the same mindset; mostly the same IS except the CC is gone and nobody seems to wonder what problems that brings the FC; a Clan invasion that somehow stalls but there's still a Tukayyid battle, but instead of against ComGuard its against a renewed SLDF. It seems like you're cherry-picking the canon ideas that work, but discarding the stuff that doesn't. Frankly, I'm confused what is and isn't part of the story, so "robust" is definitely not the word I'd use.
>>> "The basic line of canon is they can do with their creation as wanted."
Right. Militarily speaking, a lot of what Requiem proposes is more realistic that what happened in canon. But that doesn't always make for good stories. Let's use a different universe as an example: Star Trek. The Borg unquestionably could have destroyed the Federation, but instead of sending thousands of cubes, they seem to always send one at a time. It makes little sense from a military standpoint, but what are the writers supposed to do? Give up after 4 or 5 seasons of Next Generation and/or the first movie? I don't mind anyone pointing out the flaws in canon and suggesting it should have happened another way, but don't tell us it was absolutely wrong and writing a more military sound alternate universe always makes for a better story.
I'll be honest, I don't want the IS weaponry to ever come on par with the Clans from a gaming aspect. The fact it is inferior introduces additional difficulty to the game when playing those scenarios. Does it make historical or military sense? No, probably not. But it's better for the game that it doesn't. If you want equality, you can play Clan vs Clan.
>>> "Being regent, and Victor being a distance from the FC is what gave Katherine the power to take over. It wasn't a popular uprising that did it. It was her having a powerbase and being politically sneaky."
On one hand, I thought it was lame for writers to not have Victor take over after Hanse's heart attack, and lamer when he didn't after his mother's assassination. Let's be clear that there's 750 years of House Lords and for the last 280-ish they've been jockeying for title of sole leader. Victor was raised on this concept, was raised to know he would take over the greatest single empire in history, and he just turns it down? Not once but twice? Its what his father wanted him to do and he's supposedly too busy endearing himself to new ComStar followers. It's what his mother wanted him to do and he's more focused on setting up a defense against the Clan offensive that shouldn't arrive for at least another 12 years. It's what his people wanted, and he basically told them to take it up with Katherine and Peter. The First Princes are expected to be soldiers, but Victor was taking it way too seriously and was basically pissing off his people by not putting down the sword to lead from New Avalon or Tharkad as First Princes and Archons were expected to do. Even his father, who wanted nothing more than to be a MechWarrior, gave it up after Ian died. Surely he instructed his son to understand where his true responsibilities lay. It smelled suspiciously like a setup for a post-Clan Civil War, and that's exactly what happened. (And in my opinion, they made a mess of wrapping up the Clan story too quickly and too haphazardly just so they could move on to this new story arc.)
Of course, turning down the throne(s) completely explains why the FedCom populace did not like Victor at all and why so many supported Katherine's moves to consolidate power. Victor basically turned his back on his nation. He practically gave Katherine the powerbase in the Suns half through his actions, and she didn't have to be sneaky about it at all. Only displacing Peter in the Lyran half introduced sneakiness, and even that's questionable. If Victor wasn't willing to take the throne(s) - and he showed no willingness to do so - then it fell to Katherine as the next oldest. Questionable if she could have taken the title officially though, without being a member of the FedCom military per requirements of the Archron-Prince as inherited from the First Prince requirements. But officially or not, I think it was obvious by 3058-ish or so that someone had to lead the FedCom and if Victor wasn't going to do it then the public would support Katherine in his stead.
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ghostrider
07/04/19 12:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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However for all this new (Victor’s) ream purportedly aims to protect the Inner Sphere from a second invasion the clans can still flank this and attack either the Lyran half of the FC or the DC
Logically, Katherine will have to attack and take or destroy this realm. It gives Victor a base to strike back at her. This is something she would think, no matter what he says.
Also, the power it would provide the LC/LA/FC would give her the ability to take the First Lord position and keep it, by force if necessary. That is the mind of Katherine, even as you describe her.
And the clan expulsion wouldn't be a hole, but it wouldn't be something to concern the IS with as more then an organized pirate set up. Unless you radically change the clans, in which case all of the arguments change as well.
Katherine did use media manipulation to encourage the resentment against Victor and the rest of the family. This is why I say sneaky. I am not saying some or even most weren't upset with him, as he rushed off to play the great general, but the rest of the family didn't.
This thread is supposed to be a continuation of the CC being destroyed, and the 3039 war not being fought between the FC and DC. Basically, the only alts that aren't part of this story line was the idea of using the Rim Worlds people to form the clans, as Kerensky was killed, and his second stayed in the IS. Which in that case destroys any chance of keeping anything canon except the houses and states names. And even that isn't necessarily true.
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Requiem
07/04/19 02:48 AM
1.158.130.13
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Story Arc. (Simplified Version)
Two propositions –
Proposition number one
The “Clans” are former Amaris forces / supporters fleeing from the IS now returning due a “health crisis” upon their Home Worlds.
Their intention is not to conquer the IS it is to establish a new realm for themselves within the IS.
To this Universe I have assumed the Rim Worlds still remains as well as the Terran Hegemony are still in existence – Kerensky did not leave in his exodus he was assassinated by one of his own officers.
Succession Wars erupt – however in no way as devastating as the Canon
Technology remains and increases throughout the IS
Looking at changing the entire history.
Second Proposition – most detail to date
Keep the canon IS History as is up to a point
FWL
Kill off Thomas Marik – replaced with next in Succession – Start a civil War etc.
Have Andurien / Canopus league established
LA / FS alliance will be established
4th Succession war will proceed as per Canon, however
MAC – will not get off Sarna Alive.
St Ives will be larger than Canon incorporating another 6 / 9 worlds
And. /Canop. Will take Betelgeuse
3039/3040 – The remaining half of the CC will fall to the FC, FWL, And./Caop. And St. Ives
3040 – IS begins re-building Warships – Dropships equipped with Naval Weapons – Dropships begin to be converted into heavy bombers etc.
Sometime during 3040 o 3050 the FWL and the FC enter into a pact – hidden clause Victor to marry FWL female I order to establish more permanent alliance.
Nt: From the end of 4SW onwards the DC has been undergoing a re-militarization project by 3050 they will have an additional Regiments (suggest 11 new Regiments)
Introduce “Black Box” technology throughout the FC.
Introduce Steiner Solaris Stadium technology to certain FC cities.
Still considering re-writing the Clans or Keeping them as is – too many similarities between them and the Nazis.
Turtle Bay – response introduce re-write the Ayres Convention as per my writings etc..
Also introduce – SOE / PsyOps etc – commando strikes in the rear / kidnapping of techs / assassination of warriors using sniper rifles etc; Anti-Elemental Infantry Rifles; My Fenris forces within the Deep periphery; introduce partisan forces; Make sure Camelot Command becomes a FC forward ant-clan base etc.
Introduce more naval battles between the Clans and the
Keep the one year of peace – Kamikaze strike – Dragoon Confession – Re-introduce the Star League and the SLDF made up of all the houses etc.
Establish the Immortal Mech League
At this stage I am going to have many Kesselring lines (refer WW2 Italy) established in front of the Clans Advance as well as changing all IS tactics to that of the Attrition Warfare( similar to Wolcott). Also start total war production within all military industrial plants throughout the IS.
Introduce 1st Gen IS Omni mechs etc.
With the resumption of the War the Clans Advance will be very slow as their blitzkrieg has now become siege warfare.
Hanse / Takashi Die of natural causes – Victor / Theodore take over.
Victor decided to make his Mother and Sister (Katherine) joint regents for the FC whilst he is engaged on the front lines.
As the war progresses that Clans are going to experience problems …
- Due to re-supply issues
- consumables are be rationed – increase the number of energy weapons throughout the Clans.
- Replacement personnel issues – many units are being combined to overcome a lack of replacement warrior personnel.
- Elemental numbers will be reaching critical numbers.
Il-Khan will need to activate support Clan’s to assist with the invasion – at this stage he will give them two new invasion corridors on their own and away from the main invasion corridor in an attempt to draw away forces from the invasion corridor – one in the Lyran FC the other in the DC.
SLDF scrambles to contain these new forces.
<Many years of Warfare> - During which Tsun Tzu will attempt a coup on St. Ives – Kali ensures that all remaining claimants to throne are either dead, on the run or disgraced – Kali takes the throne of St. Ives after executing her brother herself (publically televised event following his trial).
2nd / 3rd Gen IS Omni begin to be introduced
Have the Cats / Bears defect to the Star League with their entire populations via Leviathan Carriers
From here on slowly introduce IS made Clan Spec. Weapons etc
Begin to push back the Clans out of the IS and into the Deep Periphery.
Continue the wars into the Deep Periphery
Have Katherine Steiner –Davion place her mother in seclusion due to “Fatigue” – Have her take the throne from Victor.
Victor conducts a quick snatch and grab to take his mother to safety.
FWL calls off the engagement between Victor and ?
Cessation of hostilities with the Invading Clans is established
Kali (st. Ivs) and And. / Canous enter into a pact to conquer Taurian Concordat. –(they enter into a mutual trade alliance at the same time)
Katherine threatens Victor through their remaining brothers and sister – Victor assumes his post as the “FC Periphery Warden”
Exodus of individuals / Companies into the Deep Periphery – wild wild west scenario with Victor’s forces being the Cavalry / Marshals.
Have Omika run to her one true love Victor – DC goes nuts – Katherine stops them via the Star League rules (and in so doing becomes First Lord).
Black dragon Society rise up against Theodore – minor civil war within the DC
Units with the DC attempt to take back the FRR from the Bears – war breaks out between the Bears and the DC.
At this point I would like it if Katherine became First Lord in perpetuity – I have not yet been able to think of a reason as to why?
I would like to have a brief era of peace here whilst Victor establishes his new realm etc
(at this stage I believe the IS will have technological parity with the Clans)
In the near future – war of succession between the FC and Victors Realm – FRR, Bears and Cats side with him. Whilst this is occurring – Kali will strike out to conquer back world lost during the 3039 war in order to link her realm up with And. / Canopous / Taurian Realm. (taking back Sian)
Thereafter –New Era – Old Katherine still hanging on to power however Victor / Omika’s children are now in the game.
Second Clan Invasion - prior to this when the Clans were kicked out of the IS - Clan civil war erupts between the True Born and the Free Born + Dark Caste – Free born win – eugenics etc outlawed – complete reformation of the former Clan Society into something else (as yet undetermined)
Shortly thereafter I would like to introduce a new Clan Jump-drive Distance two to three times the max. distance of the of the original.
They proceed to expand their realm by recolonizing worlds towards the IS.
Somewhere along the Line the former Clans and the IS SLDF personnel meet – the SLDF personnel panic killing the former clan people – due to a complete misunderstanding the Second Clan Invasion begins.
Other ideas I am considering placing into Alt. the history somewhere:-
Skye attempts to / is successful in becoming an independent state
FWL fragments
DC and the Draconis March Border worlds reignite in war due to an as yet unknown event.
With the release of Comstar’s historical documents the quasi- religious order undergoes a violent internal reformation between those who are religious and those who are not.
I also want a brief conflict between the Taurians and the Periphery Suns-FC somewhere prior to their absorption into the And. / Canopus / St. Ives League.
Plus many others -
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/04/19 03:18 AM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider,
Initially Victor will be under Katherine’s thumb – and this realm is officially part of the FC
She, as a candidate for the First Lord, must play her part – the peacemaker this is why when Omika makes her run to Victor via her brother and the Cats she will act as the peacemaker between Victor / Omika and the DC and Theodore, and in so doing becomes the new First Lord.
(On the side if there is a war it would be between the FC and the DC – and this is not what she wants)
It also doesn’t hurt that she is able to put the DC in their place – so no she doesn’t attack them at this stage – why attack yourself – plus there is the public relations image problem of her mother with Victor and Omika.
Later once the realm is no longer the wild wild west and becomes a more civilized society, when it will seek its freedom from the FC then she will be free to attack.
Please re-read above regarding the Clan Flanking manoeuvre and the problem of logistics that goes with it.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/19 12:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is an issue with the 'rabid' attack on the Saber Cat from Turtle Bay that seems to have been over looked.
The fact Theodore was training the DCMS to stop such suicidal charges, or committing the same thing. It was part of how the DC repelled the FC attack in the canon 3039 war. And it was what helped repulse the Luthien attack as well.
This puts a major hole in the MUST avenge themselves at Turtle Bay.
Now. Does Victor chase the clans into the periphery? I am missing something between him not heading to the clan home worlds, and how he was not in the IS that allows Katherine to take over. Or did the fact he should have been in the IS still being over looked?
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Requiem
07/04/19 06:48 PM
1.158.130.13
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As stated previously - The Problem with this assumption is that Takashi Kurita is still alive at the time of the Turtle Bay incident …. As well as the era needed to compare the DC with in order to understand its cultural norms … especially for the DCMS …
Takashi – Traditional upbringing by his father Hohiro Kurita,
Education – Sun Zhang Mech Warrior Academy and Wisdom of the Dragon
Assigned Unit – Second Sword of Light then Otomo
Assassination of his father – He personally took the head of the Assassin.
Rumour suggested he was involved – those spreading this accusation where subsequently rounded up and executed.
Attempted Assassination upon himself – had the body of the assassin hung from the main gate of the Imperial Palace
Throughout his entire life he strictly adhered to the principles of bushido.
When you consider bushido – you must look at the interpretation used – Considering the DCMS and its traditionalist views I believe you are looking at the re-emergence of the ‘Hagakure’, that emerged in the 1930’s and would become like a kind of bible for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy – it is an obscure collection of 18th Century samurai maxims and anecdotes and starts with the idea “The way of the samurai lies in death” – promoting the idea that a samurai must be prepared to die for his lord. Though in the DCMS era I would say this has also been extended to include the State.
(Nt; The closest person(s) we have within modern memory in which to compare / understand him (them) to the DCMS in the far future is General Tojo (Japan WW2), the Emperor, and the Japanese Military of that time– During WW2 the echoes of seppuku are evident in the suicide charges the Japanese troops made on Various Pacific Islands, as well as in the Kamikaze pilots who drove their aircraft into Allied ships – also consider the tale of traditional samurai vengeance the 47 Ronin).
This also comes down your interpretation of “face” within Japanese society (1930-45 era).
Psychologically, if Theodore would not order the use of the Kamikaze then his father, Takashi Kurita, most certainly could be put in a position by his Generals that he would have to “consider” the order and then show reluctance, but order it anyway.
Have a read here of how the Emperor of Japan was convinced by the military as to the necessity of war. (one source - Wiki re: Hideki Tojo)
Yes it is evident in the Canon writing that during the Clan Invasion he, Takashi Kurita, left the defense of the realm in his son’s hands. However, when that threat came to Luthien he and his Dragon’s Claws did engage the Invaders, showing that he would act if he deemed it necessary.
When many traditional Generals meet with Takashi, and make the suggestion, appearing to show reluctance at first he would have no choice but to discuss the issue with his son Theodore. Theodore is now put a position where would be unable to stop this – If he did then this would not only have shamed himself in front of many of his traditional Generals he would also have shamed his father (loss of face and honor) – resulting in his fathers’ immediate seppuku.
However, this is the problem the game developers do not understand cultural psychology – I only have a very passing familiarity due to international business and the readings I have undertaken over the years re WW2.
When you analyse Takashi’s personality I consider it highly probable he would use his more “older / more traditional” members of the DCMS (and those Generals that are still within the DCMS) or even those that had retired to once more return to the cockpit in the defense of the realm – once started it would be almost impossible for anyone to stop.
Thus, from all I understand I am convinced that this option would have been utilized at this stage.
Although, if there is evidence as to the contrary as to why I would be more than willing to consider it.
Victor the Clans and his sister.
Victor chases the Clans through the Inner Sphere and into the Periphery, from there he chases them even further into the Deep Periphery – where upon the Clans / SLDF cease Hostilities – I was thinking something along the line of Korea – the war “officially” never ended but both sides have established a DMZ area and a tentative peace is holding (for now).
He does not proceed to the Clan Home Worlds at this stage. The IS does not have the ability to ensure the logistical support to prosecute a war that far removed from the IS.
Whilst otherwise engaged in the Deep Periphery – Katherine Seizes power – although it will look like a popular uprising by the people requesting her to take the throne for the good of the FC (Historical precedent: Katrina Steiner and Alessandro Steiner). For the protection of her people she will agree to the request after first putting it aside –and the howls for her ascendancy increase)
Thus when Victor returns from the Deep Periphery he will find he no longer has a throne – but she will still have a use for her brother – As an exiled prop (with an appropriate grandiose title) within the Deep Periphery – ensuring the safety of the IS against the Clans.
Victor has been out maneuvered politically – so unless he wants to start a civil war, rip the FC and the Star League apart he will have to comply.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/19 08:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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The DC warriors were not the old school samuri. They followed alot of the ways, but not all, nor where they that fanatical about it. If they were, ANY loss would lead to mass suicide among the troops. As stated with the FRR, that would not have been allow if they were fanatical. Some rebelled and tried to reclaim the lands. Where is the undying loyalty to the realms lord at that point?
And what you are saying about the generals talking to the lord of the realm, if the lord says no, then that is it. Unless you already have a conspiracy going on to remove the lord, you are not going to even argue with them, as the others may show their loyalty by removing them.
The coordinator(emperor) says what happens and that is it. You follow orders or kill yourself.
So you are using the canon garbage but just in a different way. So logic holes that were there and needed to be closed remain. Hence the need to get away from canon entirely.
Victor would be getting reports on what is going on a lot sooner and head back before it got to that point. But logic stops the alt, so therefor it can't exist as such.
This is why claiming canon is the devils work, doesn't fly. You are using the same storyline, only changing the faces of who is doing what.
so unless he wants to start a civil war, rip the FC and the Star League apart he will have to comply. This did not happen in canon, and there is no reason to believe it would happen outside of it. If nothing, the other leaders would help Victor remove Katherine. Most already know what she will do for power, and with her removing Victor, means she is helping the clans. Otherwise, the others would have to hit her to prevent her from expanding her power into the periphery. She would be worse then the clans at this point.
Although there is one major point that is here and not in the canon. According to your breakdown, Melissa is still alive. She would be able to more then counter Katherine with this. This alone negates trying this route.
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Requiem
07/04/19 11:17 PM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: The DC warriors were not the old school samurai.
Hagakure bushido is not old school – yes it was written in the 18th Century but was adapted to that of 1930’s military views as at that time.
When you compare the norms (especially in regards to the military) of a Japan for the 1930-45 period to the DC of pre Theodore Kurita reforms they are very closely aligned sociologically.
That is they mesh very well – so I cannot see how the DCMS would not install the Hagakure bushido school of thought, especially when it comes to the very traditional military academies / schools throughout the DC.
I would also expect all of the soldiers within each of the Sword of Light Divisions to be indoctrinated with this school of thought.
Other units and areas within the DC may have their own variations regarding bushido – however I would not expect many within the DCMS command to have an opposing view.
QUOTE: if the lord says no, then that is it …. You follow orders or kill yourself.
Sorry but again this is viewing the Japanese culture from a very western perspective – as stated above – Read about the Second Sino-Japanese War – “aggression was recommended to Hirohito”. I also consider reading about the resignation of Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe – “…In short, the Emperor had absorbed the view of the army and navy high commands”.
QUOTE: So you are using the canon garbage but just in a different way.
Is that sarcasm? …
Popular uprisings can occur very quickly and when timed when Victor is otherwise distracted with a protracted campaign / and she has ensured that critical information does not reach Victor in a timely manner she can get away with it.
Why would the other realms help Victor – unless there is something in it for them I highly doubt they would do anything – review current world views between different countries, how many actually assist one another with regards to internal politics? … that is unless it can be used to embarrass / gain favorable trade status etc.
In my Alt. Universe where have I written that she has entered into any arrangement with the Clans? …. She is not the Katherine of old and this is not the Canon Story Arc!
Expansion into the Deep Periphery
FC, DC, FRR and Bears, Cats – all are expanding into the Deep Periphery at the same time – no no war at this time.
All sides are unsure of each other including Katherine – her background is politics and the art of the deal – most on the Star League Council would prefer her to that of her brother being on the Council as they wold believe she is more likely to change her mind / be acceptable to changing winds / acceptable to changing trade terms and negotiations – than that of her brother.
It will take many years for them to come to realize how truly dangerous she is.
As for her mother being alive – Melissa can thwart some of her plans yes this is true – however holding the office gives her tremendous power alone and if she is careful when exercising said power it can become all but near impossible for Melissa to interfering without appearing to be seen as interfering with the state – There have been many instances throughout history where this occurs – parent Vs sibling over control for the state and I believe would make for a unique story arc thus its inclusion could be considered very interesting.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/19 01:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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The fact a lot of the people thought Victor killed his mother, is one of the big reasons they started backing Katherine. And with her encouraging that way of thought, even more started backing her, as it made Victor look like an uncaring warmonger. So this is part of why Melissa being alive will cause a lot of big logic holes in this.
Most of the FC loves Melissa and would follow her any day of the week over Katherine. So unless that was changed, I just don't see Katherine becoming Archon, nor First Lord.
Now I would like to know how Katherine would interfer with information getting to Victor, unless the Comguard aspect is completely removed. And even with that, there would be command chains in place to have orders being sent. This isn't the 6-8 month journey to the clans home world. Morgan Kell would see to it that he kept in touch, if no one else.
Now a side note for thought.
With the extra resources the IS has due to the 3039 war not being done, would the states have been exploring the periphery for new resources? Comstar was already doing it. The whole argument of the big corporations pushing the houses would very well be in effect before the clans arrived with such resources being available.
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