Requiem
06/18/19 05:06 AM
1.158.130.13
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Note: This Alt History is taken from the point of view of that of the Clan’s who remained behind whilst Operation Revival was in full swing.
This relates to an IS where … (some of the main points (not all of them) are …)
CC no longer exists – absorbed into the FC;
Thomas Marik was assassinated – there was never a Comstar substitute;
Clans Invaded – Wolf Falcon, Bear, Jag etc
Turtle Bay occurred
Second Ares convention established to negate a full nuclear war and establish rules regarding Warships proximity to inhabited planets etc.
Tukayyid – 15 years no forward momentum towards Terra.
Star League is reborn together with the SLDF
Omni-(all weapon systems) are beginning to be established
Total economic production war footing is established
The Immortal Extreme Gladiator Mech League is established to promote the great houses ability to put aside the past and look towards a brighter future – R&D test new omni weapons – exchange information regarding weapons designs to defeat the Clans ….
Both the Cats and the Bears decide to “switch sides” and join the Star League … the cats and the Bears enter into a joint program to establish Arc-Ships to remove their entire populations etc. into the IS
As the last Arc-Ship leaves Clan Space … they inform the grand council ……
Explained in a little more detail …..
The speed and ferocity of Wolves was ill matched by many others assigned to Operation Revival, several of the Clans found themselves floundering as their Toumans where clearly unprepared for the established resistance by many of the Inner Sphere Forces during the initial years. And then having to accept the Truce of Tukayyid the home Clans wasted no time in scapegoating the Inner Sphere Clans for not only for their collective failures, but also for Tukayyid and the entire invasion.
As the years progressed on the enmity of home-world Clan’s Khans increased as they began plot and consider their options in secret.
Tension increasing steadily between those chosen for Operation Revival and those who remained on the Home-worlds. The tipping point, however, came in early 3060 as the last Bear ark-ship was leaving Clan space and with the formal announcement of their relocation as well as their intention to formally become a member of the new Star League.
Incensed beyond reason the Khans abjured all of of the Clans or their respective units who were associated with the Inner Sphere. Not only would they forever cut their ties with these Clans these Khans immediately announced Trials for the absorption for their remaining territory, people, everything within Clan Space.
And as a result it was also decided to establish a forward colony that would forever represent a boundary between those who failed and those who finally would succeed. At first the Inner Sphere Clans assumed there must have been a technical issue between their forces and landholdings within the Clan home worlds and that of their forces with the Inner Sphere. It would not be until the arrival of the last Bear ark-ship they would discover their fate – to be forever cut off from the Clan home worlds.
Unable to move forward and unable to retreat the remaining Inner Sphere Clans pondered their fate.
By 3063 the Terminal Colony was being established within the Deep Periphery from one end just beyond Nueva Castile and extending all the way beyond the planet of Ghent - a new Hadrian’s wall that will forever establish the boundary between Clan civilisation and failure.
As for those Cans remaining within the Inner Sphere now exiled with the absence of logistics support and reinforcements their Khans finally called for a conclave in late 3063 in a neutral system within the Deep Periphery. There they were forced to accept some hard truths as to the possibility of their future survivability.
Thoughts on what the abjured IS Clans could do next ….
1. Continue the war to become il-Clan?
2. Establish their own fiefdom – taking the Bears technology they brought into the IS to ensure their future survival?
3. Join the SLDF and retaliate against those wo abandoned them?
4. Exodus from the IS and attack their traitorous breatherin in a war of annihilation?
5. Other?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/19 07:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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If I remember right, the Bears lands went to clan Snow Raven and one or two others. The Ravens, as they build the ships the Bears used. So technically, the canonverse already had that covered. Not sure if you are going to stick with it, or have trials fought for these lands and assets.
The Bears did have access to some factories that was in the FRR. The Nova Cats would be a question. Not sure where they had to settle or build factories.
But the question does come up. Is the Diamond Sharks forbidden to trade with the two? I can see raw materials and IS made 'junk' being in demand for shipment back to the clan homeworlds.
As this is supposed to be a smarter rewrite, wouldn't the clans have forward bases and even factories along the Exodus route? Munitions being the most needed, no matter what else happens.
More farms and such created as well. Fuel depots are a must as well. Ship fuel being the most needed.
There would be fights happening, but hard to say if it would be a dedicated push or not. As the Warden part of the Wolves were neutral to the Bears, that would be a buffer. Since those that sided with the clans were Crusaders, I could see the entire border being questionable. I want to say the Wolves would have kept that border neutral, so they could focus on the Falcons and IS.
Now the next question comes on wiether or not other clans joined the Star League. The cats and bears were inside the IS, so joining was relatively easy. Those that didn't have direct contact comes to mind.
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Wick
06/18/19 07:40 PM
45.43.104.179
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Continue invasion / side with the SLDF?
Jade Falcon: Continue; Too strongly Crusader to join Inner Sphere "barbarians"
Smoke Jaguar: Continue; Same situation as Jade Falcon
Steel Viper: Continue; They don't trust or desire to work with freebirths
Wolf: Mostly continue; Some remaining wardens may be enticed to switch sides
Wolf-in-Exile: Join SLDF; Might as well. It's basically the the charge Ulric gave them, though they are very weak at this point and in no real position to give much martial support (which is why the canon Cats were SLDF and the exiled Wolves were not.) They could give assistance in other ways though, such as technology.
Diamond Sharks: Join SLDF; Without any homeworld assets, and no planets in the Inner Sphere outside of a few periphery bases, their economy (and livelihood) would collapse if they didn't side with the new Inner Sphere markets.
Hell's Horses: Special case, see below.
Create own Fiefdom?
The Clan occupation zones already pretty much were. The Bears were even negotiating with Rasalhague diplomats by this point to even legitimize it. The Cats would end up doing something similar in the Irece Prefecture. The other Clans probably just continue to rule with an iron fist, but they are effectively their own nations. Without access to homeworld factories though, I'd expect them to invest more in building new factories and upgrading their captured factories to produce Clan-spec equipment earlier than they do when cut off in canon.
Exodus from IS?
I can't see any reason why the invading Clans would give up their occupation zones. That's resources, factories, HPG communications, and a large labor force to continue getting stronger, especially if cut off from homeworld assets. I don't see moving into the periphery as a better option for any of them.
Other:
* How is Clan Hell's Horses handled? At this point they would control three Inner Sphere worlds, but weren't considered an invading Clan and didn't fight at Tukayyid. Are their forces on these three worlds abjured as well, or are they allowed to abandon them to return home?
* Presumably, the Inner Sphere Clans would set up an ad-hoc council in the style of the later Council of Six. The Exiled Wolves would still be excluded though.
Kudos for selecting a "just-past Grenada" to Ghent as your delineation line. That seems to be about as good as you can get with 3060 mapping data. Although from Waypoint 531 to the cluster later labeled A51 might be another line, pushing it back closer to Caliban Nebula and more in line with what Clan picket patrols might routinely monitor. The less distant from the Kerensky Cluster and Pentagon, the more tightly they can watch for anyone trying to sneak by and contact the Dark Caste so as to make off with the contents of a Brian cache or some other technology. (The Sharks in particular might try this to reclaim inventory that the new enclave owners may not even be aware of.)
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Requiem
06/18/19 10:20 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, Simplicity would be the easiest way to go forward when it comes to what is happening within the Clan Home Worlds – for the most part I believe I would stick with the Canon. However I may change a coupe as / when I research / complete this scenario.
So, The Bears establish the FRR / Bears Enclave – as for the cats if you want to keep their relationship with House Kurita – somewhere near the periphery and near the Jags sounds about right.
However if you want to break their relationship with House Kurita – how about in the former Rim Worlds Republic?
As for Diamond Shark – as long as they don’t get caught by other Home Clans they can trade with whomever they like.
The question of forward supply bases –
For me the forward supply bases would be within the deep periphery only along pre-determined re-supply routes for each invading Clan as they move away from the Main Space Station where the Main Re-supply fleet from the Clan Home Worlds would unload their cargo which would then be then be “bulk-broken” into individual allotments for each individual Invasion Fleets Re-supply Feet. – however, where I have placed my Hadrian’s Wall this is a little further out than this.
There are no military factories etc along the exodus road (as they are within the Clan Home worlds) – The exodus road contains space stations only with two HPG dishes and the odd Naval base.
If I have anything on the ground it will be for Naval / Space Station personnel R&R facility or the odd mining excavation / smelter where very rare minerals / gems were discovered or food and water production facilities for the Navy / Space Stations and the odd depository with anything and everything to keep the exodus road open (spare parts, fuel, food etc.).
So for the IS Clans at this stage they have to form their own council and for the most part they have to come up with a unified decision as to what to do next. For the Crusdaer Wolf, Horses, Steel Viper, Jaguars and the Falcons – I believe it would be a flip of the coin decision as if they would decide it more prudent to either break the Tukayyid Agreement and then continue with the invasion (to prove to the Home Clans their error as to their warrior superiority) OR/- attack Hadrian’s Wall and those Home Clans garrisoning it for their perfidy.
No Matter what they decide as their future aim they need to establish a Clan enclave now (including industries, food, people (serfs), etc.) and then they need to turn it into a fortress from which they can use it as a springboard against whomever they decide.
Thus they would need to shrink the number of their existing held worlds into something more defenceable so that they could then hold onto a dedicated industrial base to service the military etc. They also need to link up the two half of the invasion corridors – so this will mean going through the Bears and the FRR to achieve this – the question is where? Along the edge periphery is probably the most advantageous as it will also allow them to relocate any Deep Periphery assets back into their new combined enclave – however some of the more deeper Clan Held worlds (Those Closest to Terra and those closest to Hadrian's Wall) will have to be sacrificed to achieve the link up.
Whist the unification battles start between the two invasion corridors - They could also establish a second dedicated force with one aim – go straight for the neck as it were - a Head Hunter diversionary strike against the SLDF command base of operations!
If they are able to achieve the destruction of the SLDF command – this wold push back any combined invasion by the new SLDF into the IS Clan Territory by years!
Once this has been achieved - it is back to the question of which target is the primary target - Terra or Hadrian's Wall.
As for the Wolves –I could see Ulric splitting the wolves again with the establishment of the Clan Enclave – as half (Crusaders) will join the new crusader enclave /attack the SLDF Command base etc – the other half now under Phelan are to join the Star League via the Kells on Arc Royal.
Wick, I think you are correct Diamond Shark would join the Star League and I believe the Lyrans would welcome them in due to their similar understanding of the importance of commerce.
As those Hell's Horses units within the IS they have also been abjured, and are a wild card – they could stay within the new Clan enclave or they could do something completely outside the box – disappear only to reappear some-where else within the Deep Periphery or the IS only to establish their own realm - such as annexing one of the existing periphery powers.
So, thus over time (a jump of 10 years) there could be …. Outermost Deep Periphery – Hadrian’s Wall
Then coming in closer there could be the Deep Periphery which would have areas controlled by either - Star League / FC / DC / Ghost Bear and FRR upon many worlds with military and civilian colonists. Something similar to the Chaos March - lots of new states and all at each others throat.
Just past the periphery there is a new Crusader Clan enclave that is still debating about their primary target – Home Wold Clans or Terra.
Then the four IS powers - FC / FRR and Ghost Bears / DC / Cats
Wick, I like your idea of an delineation line from Waypoint 31 to the Cluster later labelled A51 – can I suggest though we look at WW2 Italy – the many lines established by Kesselring. So there is a primary wall Hadrian’s and a secondary Gothic Wall after the ten years from the initial establishment of Hadrian’s Wall.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/18/19 10:23 PM)
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Requiem
06/19/19 10:34 PM
1.158.130.13
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Suggestions for Clan assault upon SLDF Command
SLDF – Command Base – Combat Information Centre - Planetary Location – Fort Loudon
Within Fortress Loudon a Castle Brian that remained operational during the Succession Wars and the Clan Invasion – formerly the home of the original SLDF Unit – 123rd Infantry Division
This Fortress was subsequently expanded to include facilities for the entire new SLDF Command – and includes a variety of new emplacement weapons
The Planet is to be defended at a minimum of four to five elite units at any one time
DC – One of the Swords of Light
FC – Either the Davion Guards or Lyran Guards
ComGuards – Unknown
FWL – Silver Hawk Irregulars (as an example)
FRR – First Drakons (at the time of the Clan assault assume this is the new merged unit - baptism by fire!)
and also include a mercenary unit - if you have your own put it in or one of the Heavy Hitters - Grey Death, Snord's, Wolfs Dragoons, ILH etc. (a wild card no one was expecting to be there - and yet they are there)
Plus there should be multiple spaceports and airfields (fighters)
Navy – IS forces and Clan Forces – GM to determine what is available on both sides.
Also assume for this Clan head hunter unit each Clan are to supply their force – which when combined will become the Clan Task Force tasked with destroying the facility and killing the SLDF Command personnel.
I would assume they are to come out of a pirate point with an immediate release of Drop-ships – followed by an immediate combat drop within ‘Mech Pods. As both fighter units attempt to gain air superiority.
Each Clan will be assigned to assault one of the Planetary Defenders – however a combined elemental assault unit will dropped right on top of the Castle Brian.
However, the Castle will be defended by new IS power Armour units from all the planetary Defenders - causing a mass battle between the two groups.
Thus this battle will be on the scale of Luthien and will be needed to be planed accordingly – you also could have Focht / Victor or one or more of the other major players on the field. Just to keep it interesting.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/19/19 10:44 PM)
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ghostrider
06/19/19 11:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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If you stick with the nuking of clan forces, I would think the clans would retaliate with over whelming force. But with this, doubt the Bears and Cats would join the League.
I would think coming in with as much of the space assets they can scrounge, they wipe out anything that isn't clan, and just bombard the hell out of the world. Then spike it even further, buy making sure the surface is molten or completely fused, so nothing can live. All possible air vents and exits glassed.
The concept of using nukes against a foe would drive this as it is without honor.
But then, if you have the large aero wings taking out and holding jump points and supply depots, how would the clans even get anything of size there? The SLDF would have anything within jumping radius mined/guarded, so at least they could get off a warning to the main HQ.
There would definitely be a few around the HQ, maybe staging for further raids, or advances in the war.
It would also stand that more then a few battle stations be built around and supporting the HQ world.
Now with logic stated and out there, I would think there would be more then a few garrison forces as well, such as vehicles and fighters that aren't attached to anything that would be sent out. Might even be a warship or two as well. Vtols and Artillery should be in numbers and sited in.
Now, elite units is what? Companies? Regiments? Brigades? There is a huge difference between them. The entire Sword of Light could be there with Brigades being the unit. I know it sounds picky, but it would change the entire composition and how the defenders would fight.
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Requiem
06/20/19 02:01 AM
1.158.130.13
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No, I am not sticking with nukes – this is why I came up with the Second Ayres Conference and its subsequent ratifications of the original treaty concerning warships presence to populated planetoids and the restriction upon orbital bombardments , thus for this story line they are still in force.
I would therefore believe that a society that has demonstrated its willingness towards nuclear restraint would receive the respect and honour of the some of the Clans – first amongst then the Bears and the Cats – and one of the reasons they joined the Star League.
Thus the idea of an orbital bombardment upon the SLDF CIC will become irrelevant.
As for battle-sats – yes I could see them having about four of them from the DCMS for anti-Drop-ship operations. But I would also believe the Clans have their own Big Wings by now as well as their own variant of the aerospace ship-killer missile.
And as for getting above the fortress world – as stated previously - the Clans are using a Pirate Jump-point above the planet that is unknown to the SLDF.
As for the Fenris Teams operating within the deep periphery – by this stage I believe there would still be only a limited number of forces operating (no more than 20 for for both the FC and the DC). That said the Clans should still have some of their facilities operational within the Deep Periphery as Fenris has been unable to find them all – plus their ability to move within the Deep Periphery has not been restricted unduly – thus they can still transfer a number of these facilities over time into their new enclave.
It is hard to believe the Fenris teams could find them all or even blockade their return access into the IS – they might get lucky with a very few but considering the vastness of space I doubt they would be able to get them all.
Yes – the command centre would be protected by every form of weapons – vehicles, VTOL, Artillery etc. But how many units would all the Clans be bringing if in my opinion the elite units would not total more than 5 RCTs + additional aerospace big – wing support units + a small fleet of no more than three IS warships + no more than a single regiment belong to an unknown Mercenary unit that has just arrived for …. Either ….
1. Staging for a raid within clan space – thus they are within the precincts of one of the adjacent star-ports used to service the Facility; or
2. Undergoing additional anti-clan training as an OpFor unit against one of the defending units – thus they are about 100 to 200 Km away (or more) from the fortress when the initial Clan task Force presence becomes known. i.e they will not arrive until about 1 or 2 hours into the battle.
Thought of these just to keep it interesting …. Depending on how you want to run it … or you could add your own restriction to the game.
Please also note the 5 IS RCT elite units will have a majority of new IS onmi designs - 80%+ for each unit.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/20/19 03:05 AM
1.158.130.13
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Hopefully everyone realises the Clans Objectives ….
Elemental First Primary Target - HPG Dish – without which the SLDF’s CICs ability to respond to a mass invasion of the FRR / GhostBear Dominion will be minimised.
Also due to historical animosity, if a Commander of a specific region is not of 'your' units original House there may be “issues” when it comes to receiving orders, where as when orders are received from the CIC they would be acted upon with no questions asked.
Thus timing to respond to any situation (requesting reinforcements for example) or even knowing about the situation as a whole may become a serious issue for the IS SLDF units stationed around Clan Space.
As for the issue of using the Black Boxes as a backup transmission, they will take days to reach their intended target and be limited in the size of the message.
Elemental Second Primary Target – Commanding Officer Focht, as well as any senior officers and intelligence officers / computer mainframes etc within the Fortress – without which could stall the future invasion plans by the new SLDF against all remaining belligerent Cans. – They would also have orders that upon completion of the mission they are to burn the Fortress to the ground!
‘Mech Units Alternate Target are to be considered to be all their defending elite forces – they are to inflict severe damage as long as the Clan forces are able to remain as a viable force and they are to remain in the field until the two primary targets have been neutralized – they are then retreat in good order.
Aerospace Fighters Alternate Assignments – 1. Drop-ship insertion Protocol – 2. Gain Air superiority – 3. upon completion of elemental mission and successful extraction they are to turn the remaining fortress into rubble – 4. assist with evacuation.
What is occurring elsewhere in the IS whilst the invasion is occurring?
As all belligerent Clans are invading along a broad front, from the Periphery border to deep inton the FRR / Ghost Bear Dominion (from both the Jags and Wolf space) in an effort to link the two invasion corridors.
Reduced information is being received within the CIC as well as their ability to respond to this information as to what is exactly happening within the FRR and the Ghost Bear Dominion..
Many raids are occurring throughout the IS putting both the Lyran half of the FC and the DC into a state of uncertainty. With the absence of information from the SLDF CIC many areas are now becoming chaotic due to the level of uncertainty about what is transpiring elsewhere.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/20/19 06:24 AM)
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Requiem
06/20/19 10:20 AM
1.158.130.13
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Hadrian’s Wall – basic overview
Note:- All Aerospace fighters will be issued with ship killer missiles whilst on patrol and will be authorised to attack any target where the chance of inflicting severe damage whilst at the same time maintaining the security of their assignment – i.e. They will not attack if it could lead to a security issue, until additional forces can be assigned to satisfactorily deal with the threat.
Note:- Merchant Caste to maintain strict protocols regarding logistics / replacement personnel assigned duties at all times – Schedule – Identification Protocols etc.
Note:- Each individual Clan will be assigned a region of space within the primary and secondary wall to ensure no incursion by utilizing the exodus road to reach the Clan’s Home Worlds / to ensure the abjured clans remain in exile permanently.
Third Line of Defence Systems – System Early Warning Satellites – within remote and non-strategic systems;
Satellites with the ability to detect incoming Jump-ships – determine its entry point as well as its approximate tonnage then automatically relay that information, via an advanced Clan ‘Black Box”, to its assigned naval space station.
Ground Installations:- None
Second Line of Defence Systems - Space Stations (Small / Medium) – within second tier systems of importance;
Multiple stations have been emplaced within key systems which have the ability to detect incoming Jump-Ships throughout their assigned System – they have incorporated a HPG communications system – One Squadron worth of fighters have been assigned to each station in addition to two Cats-Eye – awacs - deep reconnaissance craft.
In the event of an unauthorised entry into the system the Space Station is to contact their Naval Space Station. A Cats Eye and three fighters will then be assigned to gather a deep reconnaissance identification of the incoming vessel – the Cats-eye will then transmit this information back to the space station, who will then transfer it to the Naval Station.
Ground Installations: - Minor Agricultural, Technician or Scientific Caste Facilities.
Primary Line of Defence Systems - Naval Defence Space Station (Large) – within primary systems and to cover their assigned position;
A Naval Station is assigned to a system together with a fleet of warships commensurate with the importance / number of systems they have been assigned to.
Four Aerospace fighter squadrons are permanently attached to the station.
In the event a warning message has been detected the Commanding Officer of the Facility will dispatch a commensurate amount of warships or other available forces equal to the threat.
On average a Naval Defence Space station will be assigned to cover an area that includes fifty or more third line systems and twelve second line systems.
They will on average be assigned six or more warships.
Garrison Installations:- Major Agricultural, Technical, Scientific or Military Caste Facilities together with all additional facilities, such as a major city to ensure its logistical requirements are maintained.
Within each Clans operational zone they will maintain a ready reactionary fleet that can be dispatched to any Naval Defence Space Station or second or even third line system within a minimum amount of time in the event of a detected major incursion.
There is no set base for this fleet they operate throughout their Clans Operational Zone as per the Khans orders.
On average these fleets would be from a dozen to even two dozen warships (This is dependent upon each of the individual Clans available warship resources).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/19 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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I was thinking more along the lines of the Bastion Defense Station with upgrades. Not the Battlestats the DC uses.
The issue with stopping all word from getting out would be harder then described. Any jumpship in the system at the time of the invasion that wasn't neutralized could well jump out and send word. So there needs to be something to stop this. And there would be jumpships in system. If for no other reason, then bring in dropships to reinforce or removed items found by the other teams.
Also, the question of IF comstar would be making ship HPGs. This would make sense as they know how well the clans network was working during the initial invasion. WOB might as well.
And the question of if the clans would work together cohesively, or do their normal bidding to see who does what and when. I don't see some clans allowing others to gain anything if the first clan thinks they can do it themselves. Much like Tukyidd battle, only smarter on the clans part.
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Requiem
06/20/19 08:14 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, yes I agree that a Defence Station could be incorporated.
I also agree that a Jump-ship could jump out with a message the world is under attack – however, by the time a relief force is dispatched I believe the Battle for the fortress would be well and truly over.
The Fortress HPG staff could have even sent a brief message out – advising regional commanders they are to assume control over their border area as the CIC has come under Clan attack.
However this returns to the idea as to accepting orders from a commander who is not from your home House. i.e. would a ‘FS’ unit newly assigned to the SLDF and has been paced along the border where a ‘DC’ officer is in command – would they obey any order from this person? (Robinson Rangers obeying an order).
This shows that care needs to be taken when assigning units to the SLDF and where they are ultimately assigned – but if you do not mix units how do you break the historical animosity between rival houses units? Ultimately, they need to work together as one SLDF.
Ultimately, the idea of stopping a Jump-ship would be difficult unless the Clans are able to place a warship at either normal jump points and they are able corral these Jump-ships quickly. It is an intriguing scenario that could be added to the game.
I also agree that sooner or later every House and ComStar will design a Flag-Ship model Warship with one or even two HPG installations and their own internal CIC to conduct fleet wide operations.
However, I would like to say, for the nature of this proposed game, this new warship class is still being constructed within ComStar’s Shipyards.
As for the Clans working together within this cohesive task force – bidding occurred earlier as to individual targets – who does what when – unlike Tukayyid they will all be engaging at the same time.
I would also like to ask a question – could the clans ever learn to work together for a common military goal? During the Huntress campaign you see all the Houses working together for a common goal – could the Clans also achieve this? Could they put aside their animosity and assist each other during a task force battle?
I know in the traditional sense you would say that this is impossible – but this is not a normal case, they have all been abjured, there is no hope for any future supply ships / resupply personnel thus for them to survive in the IS they may realise that they need to help each other.
And how scary would it be for the new IS SLDF that these Clans demonstrated for the first time a willingness to assist each other during the invasion – they demonstrated a more IS way of battling to achieve their common objectives?
All your preconceptions as to how you would fight the Clans would have to be re-evaluated before any invasion of the invasion corridor could be even contemplated.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/21/19 12:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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I believe it is possible for the clans to work together, but the circumstances would be very limited. An IS invasion of the clan home worlds might do it, but not sure how unified it would be. The use of WMD's may well result in the same thing, but again, not sure how closely it would be.
As for the ones in the IS, I could see limited cooperation between them. Well at least the Wardens and those that joined the SLDF. The Falcons and Jaguars did for a limited amount and time, but that was to get the invasion going, and to show up the Wolves. But when Huntress was invaded, you seen how much support they did.
I would suspect the SLDF would have a few jumpships at pirate points around the system, just for this reason. Where as reinforcements probably wouldn't get there in under 2 weeks, if they could affect the outcome depends on how quickly it is over with.
Also, I would think all houses involved in operations from this base would have someone able to issue orders to their own troops, that would be part of the high command. I seriously doubt Liao forces would follow most FS commanders no matter who it was.
I will assume for this scenario, there would be no rapid response forces waiting to deal with attacks on the front lines.
A few questions do come up with this though. Do the IS have clantech in their forces? This will go a long ways to countering the clans, meaning more clan forces needed.
How many and how much of the military of the clans would be involved?
I would think the clans would have had extra production in things like dropships, fighters and jumpships before considering this.
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Requiem
06/21/19 12:54 AM
1.158.130.13
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So, how could the Abjured IS Clans come together, to work together, upon a common task force mission? This could only happen with a visionary il-Khan … a new il-Khan …. But who?
With their notification – becoming abjured from the Clans – these IS Clans then meet to discuss their failures and how they can survive – forget the past and embrace the future … establish a new il-Khan …
However, just prior to this conclave Ulric’s intention of splitting Clan Wolf into two came into fruition – the Wardens with Phelan and onto Arc Royal to become part of the SLDF.
And during this shattering of the Clan Ulric died in combat.
But who can we say took command of the Crusaders?
What if I suggested that Natasha Kerensky, the Black Widow herself, took the post of Khan of the Wolf and then she took the post of il-Khan of the IS Clans.
It was she who reformed the Clans just as her ancestor once did to ensure their survival ….
And it was upon her orders and her vision that they form the Clan’s Enclave – and to ensure its establishment she ordered a simultaneous assault upon the FRR and the Ghost Bear Dominion by a combined assault force originating from the Clan Wolf space and from Clan Smoke Jaguars space at the same time by all the Clans within their respective invasion corridor, with the aim of linking the two corridors together from the edge of the periphery as far down as achievable.
And not only this assault but a simultaneous assault by a united Clan Task force assault upon the CIC of the new IS SLDF – not only to demonstrate their strength but also with the Death of Focht and his command staff time the establishment and fortification of their new Realm.
And with everyone’s eyes firmly fixed on the battles raging in the IS she uses ‘slight of hand’ to send her merchants and technicians out into the Deep Periphery to acquire as many hidden Clan facilities and repositories of technology and armaments and return to the new Clans Enclave.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/21/19 01:43 AM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, in response your post above ….
First, let us assume the IS clans have, with the announcement of being abjured from Clan Society, split along political lines – Wardens / Crusaders
As evidenced by Clan Wolf (refer above)
Second, I believe the Battle of Fort Loudon’s SLDF CIC will be over one way or another in under 24 hours – this is a surgical strike.
Third, as stated previously, yes there will still be inter House command problems – though the issue regarding House Liao is a non-issue – they no longer exist due to the war of ’39.
As for the issue of Rapid Response Forces – yes these forces exist – however if they do not receive orders to activate from the CIC, as to where to go and who they will be engaging and what the aim of the mission is – they are just another Garrison Force.
As for Clantech – these are elite units assume they are heavily modified units with a minimum of anywhere between 50-75% Clantech.
As for who is involved – go along Crusader political lines- unfortunately time has run out for the IS Clans they have to Act soon otherwise they will find themselves isolated and unable to survive.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/21/19 05:19 PM
45.43.104.179
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Quote:
So, how could the Abjured IS Clans come together, to work together, upon a common task force mission? This could only happen with a visionary il-Khan … a new il-Khan …. But who?
With their notification – becoming abjured from the Clans – these IS Clans then meet to discuss their failures and how they can survive – forget the past and embrace the future … establish a new il-Khan …
However, just prior to this conclave Ulric’s intention of splitting Clan Wolf into two came into fruition – the Wardens with Phelan and onto Arc Royal to become part of the SLDF.
And during this shattering of the Clan Ulric died in combat.
But who can we say took command of the Crusaders?
Canon establishes Lincoln Osis as effectively the leader of the Crusuder movement of the remaining invading clans following the deaths of folks like Elias Crichell and Vandervahn Chistu in the Refusal War. If this scenario takes place after Refusal War but before Bulldog, he's the obvious choice. He's been Khan much longer than Natasha Kerensky or Marthe Pryde.
Of technical note, the leadership of the Crusader movement of the overall Clans may have fallen to Asa Taney instead of Osis, but given abjuration of the invading clans, he's out of the picture. Please note though that he is a strong Neg vote for the concept of an impassable Hadrian's Wall, and would make a very serious Trial of Refusal - possibly a several cluster sized bid (which is highly uncommon for a Grand Council vote not of the Annihilation/Absorbtion kind.) Depending exactly how you handle the kind-of-there, kind-of-not situations of the Sharks and Horses, they could be Neg votes in the council as well. I'd suspect the Horses wouldn't risk much more than a few trinaries in refusal, but the Sharks would if they're about to be stripped of their entire homeworld assets.
I think you need to consider the Grand Council treating the two elements of this story as different votes.
Abjuration:
Invading Clans are all Negs.
Non-Invading are all Affs.
Pretty simple vote based on clans affected. Assume that Clan Smoke Jaguar will win the bid for Refusal, and be willing to put forth a whole Galaxy in defense. Not sure who wins the bid to uphold the vote. (Star Adder would be the obvious choice, but they'd be busy with Absorbing the Burrocks and in poor position to commit enough forces to enforce the decision. Coyote seems the next obvious, but their support of the Dragoon Compromise and friendship with the turncoat Clan Wolf would make the other Clans wary of commitment. I think the duty would fall to Goliath Scorpion or Cloud Cobra, and they'd demand - and receive - Huntress as the prize for risking a significant portion of their touman to uphold a council vote.)
Hadrian's Wall:
Ice Hellion: Neg
Diamond Shark: Probably Neg, unless assurances given to allow time to vacate property or trade it away
Hell's Horses: Maybe either way
Steel Viper: Maybe either way. (Whichever gives them the one-up on Jade Falcon for being booted out of the occupation zone. Probably yes, if they can claim JF enclaves before the others but not sure this would be enough as they'd forever be giving up long-term revenge.)
All the others are probably Aff, though Crusader Khans may vote Neg on the basis of keeping the door open for a future invasion.
Almost certainly to be refused by Clan Ice Hellion and no one else out bidding them - they may even put as many as three clusters on the table. Clan Coyote can probably be the upholder here, but they'll be claiming the Hellion enclaves on Foster and/or mining rights of discovered worlds in the Hadrian's Wall picket area.
On the bright side, you've effectively crippled the Crusader movement in the homeworlds with the Falcons, Jaguars, and remaining Wolves abjured, the Vipers still stinging from a humiliating retreat from the Inner Sphere, and the Hellions losing face in a Trial of Refusal. You've still got many Crusaders left, but they're all busy minding their own business (Star Adders and Burrocks) or not effective leaders of the Crusader movement (Fire Mandrill, Blood Spirit) joining the foiled Vipers and Hellions.
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Requiem
06/21/19 07:51 PM
1.158.130.13
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Wick, Yes I agree with you, if this was using the majority information we know from Canon what you are suggesting is a very reasonable, rational and well thought out argument.
However, what I am considering is a broad new concept within Clan society which will require a complete juxtaposition in Clan laws, customs and norms as an Alt History (or more accurate an Alt. Universe within the Multi Verse.) As such the people whom you have come to know through the canon stories do not have the same personalities – consider them a little less rational and more human in their thought processes.
My ultimate aim therefore is to try and iron out some of the more blatant ‘issues’ that were raised within the canon story.
What I am suggesting is this ….
- First there was a process to determine involvement in the invasion - for those found ‘lacking’, politically would they (their Khans and sa-khans) not hold a grudge against those who were allowed – and if these feelings were left to fester would they not become toxic .
- During the invasion many Clans began to ‘lag behind’ – would some ‘arm-chair-general’ the invasion – if they do not state it opening they may be think it - if it was my Clan was in the invasion we would have never lagged behind! ….. further destroying the relationship between the haves (on Invasion) and have nots (stay at home)
- Then we have Tukayyid – how many would even considered this challenge by ComStar, and worse yet when the Clans loose.
Here let me take a step back and include the following about the Clans … my thought process
- They are Spartans – an ultimate Warrior Culture, who’s ruling warriors must demonstrate their superiority for every second of their life – a belief that stems from their genetic purity and their martial skill – demonstrated in hundreds of battles;
- They have established a Totalitarian / Communist government where a very small council (the 0.001%)who determines the face of the majority (99.999%);
- In such a society if a warrior demonstrates weakness – would they not be shunned / ostracised by the majority?
- They are vying for the ultimate prize – il-Clan for all time.
- Those that are going are the best of the best for the entire Clans that they have to offer.
- And then Tukayyid ….
- At this stage politically and mentally would you not only have a chance for revenge but how can you as a warrior reconcile what has happened with your view of the universe – You are the ultimate warrior race – genetically pure – warriors of hundreds of victories over hundreds of years - and yet you failed to a bunch of free-born sudo-priests who have never fought a single battle since before the exodus! Would not your hatred boil over just a little at the thought of such a shame – your forces have won victory after victory – you are genetically pure and yet somehow the best of the best have fallen?
- How do you reconcile these different views? There must be something wrong! And at this stage would you not believe that which is wrong / weak / failure must be excised less it taint the whole of Clan society.
- Would they (the Home Clans) at this stage begin to consider that the IS Clans have somehow become infected – that has somehow weakened their martial prowess - as the reason for their failure.
- What else could be the reason for their failure – either the IS warriors are better fighters than they are – but how is that possible? The IS Clans are they not genetically pure, do they not have the ultimate weapons of war – thus the fault MUST be due to those IS Clans – their prowess must have reduced somehow.
- At this stage, all throughout history, where societies have iron clad belief systems that have been rocked to the core they usually adopt the most stupid answer as the one ‘truth’ behind the failure and accepted this as fact for which the fault occurred – despite it being total BS. Most closed mind societies cannot handle the truth – thus there needs to be an excuse / invented truth that can justify the error in a way that will still uphold their belief system.
Thus if the IS Clans are now somehow “infected” due to their proximity to the IS – which justifies their reduced martial prowess / destroyed their genetic superiority - they must be excise them lest they infect the remaining genetically pure!
Thus the IS Clans can no longer get a say in what must happen next – they must be gotten rid of one way or another!
So how do you do that without getting infected yourself – you isolate the victim! And this is what was done.
All remaining Home Clans vote Yes
Those infected get isolated and no say whatsoever – they are now the honoured dead who have shown the Home World Clans there is a virus within the IS that can destroy their genetic superiority.
“Let us all Hail those that died to show us the endemic taint prevalent within the IS!”
All remaining home clans can say they have saved themselves from whatever has destroyed the IS Clans genetic superiority – as evidenced by the failure at Tukayyid.
Yes I know it sounds very silly, but no one ever said being rational was part of the human psyche, and when you consider some of the issues - even during the later 20th Century and even now that being debated - it is not as so far-fetched as you might first believe for a closed warrior race society to believe the only way their forces could have failed is if they have somehow become tainted.
So with the failure of Tukayyid – the Ghost Bears leaving and taking everything with them – they have shown the way forward – isolation from the infected to ensure the purity of those remaining behind.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/21/19 08:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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What if I suggested that Natasha Kerensky, the Black Widow herself, took the post of Khan of the Wolf and then she took the post of il-Khan of the IS Clans.
This would assume the Refusal war didn't go the way it did. Natasha died when she fought Joanna on Twycross.
Would the home clans have held it against the Bears and Cats for joining the new Star League?
Would some of them have done the same?
It is very possible the clans would go into a small civil war, as this point came to the forefront. The clans main goal was to reform the League, though I will admit, it was supposed to be a clan effort to do so. Without invading the homelands of the clans, it should have had an issue where the clans tried the batchall approach to taking over the League. Trials of Greivence comes to mind right now, but even a trial of position might be called for. Make the leader show they know how to fight.
And no. Might makes right doesn't work well.
The wolves are a very different story, as Vlad in the canon line, did NOT destroy the bloodnames that went with Phelan. He filled them with Crusader wolves, but that doesn't solve that issue well. The blood named could well call for those of the same bloodname to fight each other for the right.
On a side note, the wolves did have clan bloodnames they could use, from winning the absorption of at least Clan Widowmaker and part of the Wolverines if I recall. With this, they could increase their power base by having more bloodnamed warriors.
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Requiem
06/22/19 01:03 AM
1.158.130.13
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What I am suggesting is that the Refusal War did not occur at all …
The Home Clans have now become isolationists … they do not want any contact with the IS …. I also would not put it past them that they are currently undergoing a purge within the Clan’s Home Worlds to ensure any taint of the IS is removed, “permanently”.
So unless any of the IS Clans attempt to return to the ‘Home Worlds’ their former compatriots will want nothing to do with them – Thus any IS force from any Clan or House Unit will be killed on site.
What I am proposing is that the Home World Clans are now thoroughly irrationality society – considerate to be something like McCarthyism on Steroids.
Even the Scientist Caste are going along with the program because if they don’t they fear they will be purged next.
Thus if you want a trial of grievance … ok, but the suspicion that you must also be tainted could be a real consideration …. and we all know what happens to the infected, don’t we?
As for blood names – if the genes remained within the Clan Home Worlds they should be safe. However any gene source material was sent to the IS – under no circumstances would that material be allowed to be used to create any new children the risk that it has somehow been infected is too great – purge it!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/22/19 12:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a point that should be addressed. Except for the Bears, all the invading clans had large chunks in the home areas. How would that be addressed?
The Cats joined the League, but I don't remember them moving their civilians into the IS.
Which leads to the question of if the invading clans had enough forces to stop any such abjuring of their clans in the IS. Given the prospect of gaining ranks by removing those that failed in the IS, they may well go along with the abjuring of the IS forces. But that does lead to a very dangerous concept. A few units were the premier of their clans. To abjure them, means destroying some of your own history and glory.
I am going to assume there is no resistance in the home front to removing the failed invasion units. I know there would be some, as a few were looking forward to being called into the IS and do what the others could not.
A complete removal would destroy their own forces as well, since the genetic material for their warriors will have been mixed with those abjured. Would that taint their names as well?
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Requiem
06/22/19 05:31 PM
1.158.130.13
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As for the IS Clan’s holdings on the Clan Home Worlds – lost to the Home Clans – new trials of possession were arranged and fought.
As for the Cats transferring their entire population to the IS - this is just creative writing on my part, to allow a new realm within the IS be created the Cats Enclave.
No, I am confident with the way I am going, yes I am removing Refusal War, the destruction of the Jags, the Battles upon Huntress et al. – However, sooner or later I had to make a major departure from Canon and I believe this is the best point as I have been railing against the Jags being the only Clans to fall …
As for resistance against the “failed invasion Clans” – within the IS there will always be resistance, many units were able to act independently and engage them when they were attacking the CIC / forming their enclave / sending their technicians into the Deep Periphery.
and within the Clan Home Worlds – yes this will require “resistance” as their fellow clans decide to purge all the failed warriors form the Clan home Worlds – most will die in ‘glorious’ battle protecting their assigned holding – though some may flee and turn bandit …. Or even try to establish their-own little fiefdom upon a “hidden world”.
As for Genetic material – this is not about the source material – it is about its geographical location – if it had proximity to the IS then it is tainted – purge it!
This is now an irrational response to unexpected occurrence – introduce genetic purity checks to ensure you have not been infected by those who remained within the IS too long?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/22/19 09:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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In the canon, a few leaders began to think contact with the IS was going to go badly for the clans, even if they had taken Terra. The corruption was that complete, and no matter what, it would tainted the clans anyways.
Would you bring any clan warriors or units back to the home worlds? Some that are so sick of their leaders inefficiency, or worse, becoming tainted with the corruption the IS has.
Khan Critchell comes to mind. No warrior skills left to him, but yet not being retired comes to mind. The whole Aidan story is a tale of a trueborn posing as a freeborn, then doing a second trial of position in the Falcon touman. This should have sickened most warriors before he became a hero. I would think trials, both official and unofficial, would have come so hard and fast, that he would not be in any shape to fight on Tukyidd.
Even going as far as recalling, or removing the il-khan when they Jaguars fell behind the 'inferior' wolves.
Not sure, but the invading clans had a large portion of the merchant's jumpships. Would they have been recalled before the abjuration? That may tip off the invasion clans something was up.
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Requiem
06/22/19 10:47 PM
1.158.130.13
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All clan Units, this includes the merchant Jump-ships, that were assigned and had taken up their position within the IS are now considered to be tainted – there will be no coming home for them ….. ever.
They will be purged on site!
All IS Clans must now adapt to their circumstances – if they remain Hidebound I cannot see their new enclave surviving for very long. They need to adapt, overcome ….
This therefore provides an opportunity to reforge the Clans somewhat ….
They can no longer treat their citizens as serfs – if this continues it will lead to a civil war that their neighbors will exploit – they may even now require a new Caste – The Diplomatic Corp who will need to work closely with the merchants and the warriors to survive.
Some of their traditions will therefore have to change – as well as the introduction of new traditions.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/24/19 06:21 PM
45.43.104.179
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Quote:
What I am suggesting is this ….
- First there was a process to determine involvement in the invasion - for those found ‘lacking’, politically would they (their Khans and sa-khans) not hold a grudge against those who were allowed – and if these feelings were left to fester would they not become toxic .
- During the invasion many Clans began to ‘lag behind’ – would some ‘arm-chair-general’ the invasion – if they do not state it opening they may be think it - if it was my Clan was in the invasion we would have never lagged behind! ….. further destroying the relationship between the haves (on Invasion) and have nots (stay at home)
- Then we have Tukayyid – how many would even considered this challenge by ComStar, and worse yet when the Clans loose.
All of these points are exactly what happened. The left behind Clans were rather irked, but in fairness, they had only their own failure to blame. Some harbored a dislike that Clan Wolf was forced to be an invading Clan, and then did so well. Others miffed at being bested by their competitors for slots, or being taken advantage of during the Harvest Trials. (For example, the Hellions harbored a grudge against the Bears after being narrowly beaten by them for the invasion spot, then expanded that grudge to all invading Clans after the Falcons, Wolves, and Jaguars took many of their warriors in Harvest Trials.) Almost all of the home Clan Khans were boasting that a failure like Tukayyid wouldn't have happened to their Clan.
I'll concede the Khans were often irrational, but rarely destructively irrational. If you're banking on an Inner Sphere taint that must be destroyed like a virus, and every Clanner who had visited the Inner Sphere must be annihilated or abjured, then the scope is rather profound. I believe most, if not all seventeen, extant Clans had observers on Tukayyid. Wolf and Goliath Scorpion both had warriors with Wolf's Dragoons who returned to the homeworlds in 3009, and some of these likely introduced genetic material into later generations. Even if the major invading Clans are booted and the other Clans are willing to forfeit their few IS visitors (some of which may have been the Khans or saKhans themselves), you're left with complications. The Scorpions have almost got to be a Neg vote on this basis because they may be at risk of losing a large portion of current warriors and sibkos, despite doing exactly what the Grand Council had ordered them to do (and doing so honorably.) The Horses would lose a Galaxy or two of warriors who had carved out that little three-world invasion zone (unless undone in your story.) The Vipers would be facing extinction with no Inner Sphere territories to which they could return (unless you're undoing that bit of canon as well.) The Snow Ravens may be forfeiting the spacecraft they'd loaned to other Clans (particularly the Falcons) if you're including material on top of people. So now you're talking nine or ten Clans Neg (all seven Tukayyid clans plus CGS and CHH, and maybe CSV as well) to eight or fewer Clans Aff, and the motion would fail the Grand Council. And a Clan or Clan Warrior simply does not try to Refuse a failed vote on Annihilation/Abjuration, as to do so effectively places yourself and your bloodlines at risk of same: the loser of a Trial of Refusal basically inherits the original punishment. Politically, the votes just aren't there as you've written it. I'm not against the idea of abjuring the seven major invading Clans, but the method of abjuring anyone and everyone tainted by a visit to the Inner Sphere puts too many Clans into the loser bucket to pass a single vote needed to do so. You've got to scale it back a bit to ensure a safe landing for the Horses and/or Scorpions to have the votes, and omitting any jumpship or warship taints. Now maybe you follow Brett Andrews' pattern and do it in stages - first by lopping off the major invading Clans in one vote, and then the Horses and Scorpions in later motions - but that seems tricky. I don't think it was good writing in canon, and it probably wouldn't be now either.
And you still have to contend with a Refusal to the permanent Hadrian's Wall type of separation from a rabidly Crusader Clan like the Ice Hellions. I've no doubt they, and likely a few other Clans, would believe themselves so superior that they'd feel immune to the taint/virus that doomed the previously invading Clans. The Clan Warrior ego and sense of near-invincibility just shouldn't let them be afraid of something imaginary like an Inner Sphere taint. Each Clan thinks themselves superior to the others, so just because the invading Clans fell victim to it doesn't mean they'll think it would happen to theirs, too: its much easier to believe that the invading Clans were simply weak and that a stronger Clan is needed to continue the invasion. So I still don't think you get Hadrian's Wall without a major Trial of Refusal, and the Hellions seem like the most potent obstacle based on canon similarities.
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Requiem
06/25/19 12:14 AM
1.158.130.13
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Yes, I agree they are often irrational but they have been destructively irrational in the past … Wolverines (not the historical version but the truth as outlined in the Novel).
Thus I would like to say that it is not beyond reason to believe they may go down the McCarthyism Trials scenario – reds under your beds historical analogy – but in this case they establish an isolationist approach to save their empire.
I would like to say that if warriors returned in 3009, 40 years before the invasion you could say there is no evidence of the malady that affected future generations and as such they are quite safe from the purge.
Clan tradition dictates when a Clan is weak they should be absorbed – Scorpions Trial of Absorption and as the Horses have lost their galaxies – can we thus say these two are subsequently absorbed by each other – Clan “Chimera”? who knows ….
(Scorpion Horse? Or Horse Scorpion? …. So, Chimera is the only word that makes any sense if these two ever became one)
The Vipers will find their place within the Clan Enclave – Nat. K. will see to that!
The Snow Ravens are just going to have to accept the loss
What I am looking at is the larger Clans using their political weight / threat of annihilation to get their way – in addition to future promises – in addition all Home Clans will receive new worlds upon the Hadrian’s border – resources – new factories – new space stations – enlarging of all Home Clan Sibkos – Every home Clan will be receiving new territory, would they give that up if the larger Clans promised their security for the next 20 years so that they could rebuild?
Makes for an interesting question though – what would the sa-khans and khans do now if they were allowed to expand their empire? - where as it currently stands the area in the Clan Home Worlds are fixed and difficult to expand without incurring the enmity of another Clan.
So with this said would there even be any refusal battles?
All Home Clans obtain
- An increase in the area they hold;
- An increase in wealth – new resources – new industries – new space stations etc.;
- Over the next 20 years as the number of sibkos are increased multiple new Galaxies are expected to be created for each Clan;
And all with an agreement that for the next 20 years there shall be no absorption or annihilation.
What would be the best political step for each Home Clan – look at their situation now – or look at where they might be in the next 20 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/29/19 11:15 PM
45.43.104.179
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New worlds in the Hadrian's Wall area are not Terra.
I don't think there's anything that could be offered to the more rabid Crusader Clans to have them give up the dream of Terra. The Crusader philosophy is based on the Great Father's intention (or inferred intention) that the Clans would one day return the Inner Sphere and rebuild the Star League. For the Crusaders, it is their ultimate goal. Abandoning it is tantamount to asking the Clans to not follow Kerensky's vision anymore. It does not work so long as the Crusaders are in power.
I'm not against the Hadrian's Wall concept, and for some Clans like the Coyotes its a wonderful proposition, but it would be a very difficult thing to get past the Grand Council as a whole in the 3050s and is a sure bet to be Refused by one of the very Crusader Clans. And not just a token Refusal, but challenged with utmost seriousness on the part of the Crusaders (which is why I think it would be at least 2 or 3 clusters on both sides.)
Now, if you give it 15 or 20 years for opinions to change and the Crusader philosophy to wane and the Bastion philosophy to gain support, perhaps it can work. That's what happened in canon. But it can't be a spur of the moment thing without complete disregard for the motives of the majority of Clan warriors in the 3050s. The Crusaders are in power, and they aren't giving up Terra for -anything- until someone else shows them through military might (i.e., Operation Bulldog), they fail through their own attempts (Ice Hellions), or suffer tragic functional meltdown (Fire Mandrill, Burrock, Blood Spirit) Canon had to eliminate five Clans, occupy a sixth with the Absorbtion of one of those five, split a sixth, and eject seven more, all over the course of 20 years to make it happen.
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Requiem
06/30/19 12:42 AM
1.158.130.13
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Wick,
Question, how do we gauge the psychological impact of an event upon a society …
How do we gauge the effect of the defeat upon their strongest and most experienced clan warriors at Tukayyid?
The ComGuard has NEVER been in battle – they are as green as it comes - Their weapons have been locked away since the time of the exodus and has only just recently been allowed out for parade duty in front of many HPG’s throughout the IS.
How as a warrior society do you reconcile the fact that your most elite units failed overall to win given the enemy they were sent to fight?
Without getting into more the more recent tragedy – is it a Pearl Harbor moment?
The best were sent, and they failed! – what should have been a quick strike through to Terra has now stalled.
Given their (the Invasion Clans) abject failure to do what they were assigned to do what would the home clans decision to do next?
For me sitting on their hands and just watching what is going on in the IS would not be option.
All the IS Clans must be punished for their failure at the very minimum for this failure!
So if you don’t consider the option of becoming abjured – then mass wars of refusal / absorption upon the IS Clans to either remove them from their position of being allowed to contend for the right of becoming the IL-Clan, as they quite categorically failed against the Green ComGuard which proves they are not worthy to be allowed to contend for such a noble prize as that of becoming the Il-Clan – or their (the Invasion Clans) command has in someway become weak and must be replaced with a more capable leadership – thus absorb them and once they have been absorbed and a change of leadership established – continue on with the prosecution of the war to become the Il-Clan (and one more of those Home Clans is now also allowed to vie for the position of Il-Clan)
So at this stage given the clans warrior mentality (mongol) and when a small number of their members have shown weakness through absolute failure to an untested Army of green recruits - fighting in pre-exodus Mechs – there must be ramifications for this failure … the weakness must be purged less they infect the strength of the healthy .... for a Mongol (or any warrior culture throughout history) this point of view would be quite rational - you failed, thus you must be weak, and we do not allow the weak to be a member of our tribe - you must be gotten rid of one way or another!
In the Canon it was the refusal war Falcons Vs. Wolf.
However I would like to contend this is just too small a punishment - it does in now way demonstrate the true gravitas of such a failure upon the all the invasion Clans – For all those that failed / ended in a draw THEY MUST BE either abjured from the IS invasion corridor and return home in utter disgrace (and in the knowledge they have lost their candidacy to become the Il-Clan and be replaced by another more worthy Clan - which would result in a refusal war) or face a trial of absorption at the very minimum.
Those that won may be allowed to remain – however given Clan politics any excuse that could be manufactured to destroy the Wolf would be used against them for the actions of their Khan in this debacle.
Thus this is the only, in my opinion, way forward post Tukayyid – either all the IS Clans are abjured / replaced / absorbed by the Home Clans against the IS invasion Clans
Just sitting at home doing nothing is not what a warrior would do – only action and the spilling of blood could there be a closure to such a bitter defeat at the hands of such an inexperienced and ill-equipped force as that of the ComGuard.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/30/19 12:45 AM)
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ghostrider
06/30/19 12:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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The ComGuard has NEVER been in battle
They were not in a battle that large, but they have been in battle. Simulators can only do so much, and more then a few pilots were elite.
The Comgaurd was deployed to stop pirates from hitting their facilities when first introduced to the IS. They did attack the NAIS during the fourth war, so that shows their skills.
Now how do the rest of the clans deal with the failure?
They recall those that failed and make them laughing stocks of the clan society and give them the dezgra name.
Equipment would be confiscated, as it would be completely wasteful to leave the most advanced clan tech in the hands of bandits in such a large number.
There would be a shift in power, but doubt they would just kick the others out. And with that, nullify the treaty, or suggest one that all clans that weren't participants, fight. Each clan would suggest those that fought on Tukayyid were inferior. Most would not give up on trying to gain the genetic materials of those clans. The wolves were not a top clan just because of the Kerensky name. They had warriors that were the devil himself on the field. Ulric himself would be seen as a valued asset to any of the home clans. More then a few others as well.
The best of some clans, not all clans comes to mind. My clan is better then yours. The only reason we didn't make it is (excuse).
In the Canon it was the refusal war Falcons Vs. Wolf.
However I would like to contend this is just too small a punishment.
Huh? This war was fought to prevent the falcons from trying to reignite the invasion. This was not done at the councils demands. Unless you think it is some sort of punishment the developers put in there.
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Requiem
06/30/19 06:59 PM
1.158.130.13
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Yes, NEVER …
Simulators do not equate to battle, how does an advanced computer game, that is run from the safety of your Academy equate to the actual terror of battle upon an unknown world and an unknown environment – the pure terror of a first battle cannot be simulated! – You never know what you will do in battle until you are put in that situation.
Simulation is a very poor education tool in comparison to actual fighting ….
How many within the entire ComGuard fought pirates and how can you equate fighting pirates to that of a Clan Warrior – skill, ferocity, Machines …. everything is completely different, the shear terror they evoke ... remember what happened when you first fought the Clan .... Warhammer one shot .... the Clan Unit then guttered you Warhammer and after one turn you were left with a pile of scrap that was your Warhammer.... remember this?
Attacking NAIS – First they all died, so that experience died with them; Second, The Crown price within his Battlemaster - alone - was able to effectively corral their unit until help arrived in dribs and drabs from Team Banzai – thus showing their green inexperience …..
Have a look at what happened at the Battle of Kasserine pass (WW2) to an American green as green unit when engaging a battle hardened and very experienced German Force under the leadership of Rommel. Utter debacle does not begin to explain what happened …
Not only were their commanders green as it got but their troops were also – how can you expect green officers make the correct decision in battle? Is this not why you initially place them with a very experienced NCO who can iron out the bumps until he/she understands what is required.
Quesion: How does a warrior culture, such as the Clans, deal with failure?
Sorry to burst your bubble but in a warrior culture any sign of weakness cannot ever be tolerated!
Those that lost (and the Falcons who ended in a draw) have proven they are unworthy – the unworthy can NEVER become the il-Clan.
Would anyone ever consider a Clan who was defeated by the green ComGuards worthy of being allowed the right to compete for the title of il-Clan? I cannot believe in any warrior society they would still allow them to remain and to compete for the ultimate prize – they must PROVE they are still worthy – and if they are found lacking they must be removed!
Yes – the home Clans WILL see them as weak for this disgrace and they WILL act.
This again shows the game developers poor understanding of what they have created – they created the “Ultimate Warrior Society” – their culture, their society, their psychology, would demand that they act – and in so doing challenge the unworthy, those that failed for the right to prove themselves in combat, and in so doing the right to become il-Clan.
As I have stated – the refusal war is too small a punishment – it is punishing one of the only two clans that actually won against the ComGuard. So how is that punishing those Clans that LOST and the Falcons who despite ending in a draw – They did not win!
A Clan’s are supposed to be MONGOLS – a council of Khans and sa-Khans would demand the right to re-test the invasion clans as to their worthiness to become the il-Clan – Psychologically this is the only response to their failure – their entire culture is based upon the concept of the Trial – Trial of Position, Trial of Grievance, Trial of Refusal, Trial of Annihilation etc. etc.
The only logical response to this situation is a Trial by one Clan against another to prove they are worthy!
To believe the home Clans would just sit at home and just do nothing is ludicrous in the extreme.
“Ultimate Warriors” my petunias they are just fluff if they just sit and do nothing in a situation like this.
Action and a new Trial to prove your worthiness is the only response.
Again this just shows a lack of understanding as to what was created and is a way of insulating (favoritism to their pet Clans once more) the invading clans from the reality and gravitas of the situation which is caused by their failure.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/30/19 10:38 PM)
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ghostrider
07/01/19 12:06 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Com Guards, formally referred to as the ComStar Guards and Militia, was the military arm of ComStar. Kept hidden by the supposedly politically neutral organization until after the Fourth Succession War, the Guards were a force on par with the militaries of the Successor States.
Interesting. The wiki says they were on par with the house militaries. So the house militaries were green and never in combat?
Second. Warrior cultures do suffer military ineptness, since hiers are not always what they need to be. Oh wait. The Samori warriors killed any leaders that were not able to do the job. Ever time.
The Crown price within his Battlemaster - alone - was able to effectively corral their unit until help arrived in dribs and drabs from Team Banzai
Guess the book I read was written wrong. He did NOT stand alone. He fought with the wounded of several units until forces from around New Avalon could respond. He was never alone. He was one of the very few that was not wounded before the battle.
As I have stated – the refusal war is too small a punishment – it is punishing one of the only two clans that actually won against the ComGuard.
Punishment? The grand council nor the home clans had anything to do with this war. So how do you figure punishment? I consider it hobbling the clans.
Second. Clan wolf won. So only one of one clan won. The Falcons and the Bears got a draw. So that is two draws, one win.
Now where is it written the clans are Mongols? The ranking is set for it, but the mongols were destroyers of all they could reach. The mongols did not attack with equal or lesser forces. They hit with all they could. The did not leave an enemy alone that defeated them. They hit with larger forces. They were raiders that conquered those around them. Honor was internal to the armies. Not to anyone outside of that. So this comparison is wrong.
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Requiem
07/01/19 01:22 AM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: “The Com Guards, formally referred to as the ComStar Guards and Militia, was the military arm of ComStar. Kept hidden by the supposedly politically neutral organization until after the Fourth Succession War, the Guards were a force on par with the militaries of the Successor States”.
Comprehension of Statement Required- “the Guards were a force on par with the militaries of the Successor States” – This is referring to their size not experience level - where they were on par, size wise, with a House Unit and does in no way suggest they have the same experience of a house unit.
Clans are supposed to be the ultimate warrior culture – that includes strategy - whose roots are taken from the Mongol Empire and like the Samurai they too had seppuku – the DC defeating the Jags at the Battle of Wolcott Galaxy Commander Osis had one of his Elementals execute him for his failure.
Reference Page 88 – The Fourth Succession War – Military Atlas Volume 2 – January 3029 – January 3030
Battle September 10 – In it it clearly states that the Prince destroyed – Panther, Marauder, Griffin, Locust and Stinger BEFORE the walking wounded of Team Banzai arrived …. "arriving on the scene singly or in pairs, the ‘Mechs of Team Banzai eventually outnumbered the Commandos and turned the tide".
Cannon - he was initially alone.
Ghostrider, sorry but I think you are missing the point in that a warrior culture must constantly test an individual as well as their unit and their Clan’s ability. If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession, or to that of a Trial of Absorption or Annihilation depending upon the severity of the deviation.
What I am proposing is just the natural extension of their cultural rules by which all laws are derived.
Sorry the results are Wolf – Win; Bear – Win; Falcon – Draw all others loss.
As per the Canon writings - Mongols – Page 9 – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky book – Bottom Right hand corner last paragraph – “Nicholas borrowed from various historical eras to create the new society – among them the Mongol hordes of the thirteenth century ……”.
He also included …
The Shogunate Japan – but does not go on to explain which shogunate.
The twentieth-Century China – but does not go on to explain if it is early century, mid century or late century as each of these have vastly different characteristics.
However what he forgot is that cultural norms are passed down by the parents to the children and then subsequently to their children – we are all trapped by the historical and cultural norms that out progenitors install in us as children - how many of us remember the songs that were sung to us as children or the stories that were told to us about our cultural heroes – thus there will ever be a Davion, Kurita, Steiner, Marik, Liao and Cameron characteristics within the mix, that will rise up now and again.
So the comparison can be considered to be quite accurate, he desired for his warriors to revere the culture of the Mongols and that is what he got – all the good and all the Bad.
May I suggest you read about Genghis Khan (Born Temujin) – died in 1227 – However, for all he established the unified Mongol Empire ends in 1271! Yes they achieved great things and conquered vast areas of land – however without someone to hold it all together it just fell apart (infighting).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 12:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession,
Wrong. The clans were all warden when formed The crusaders seized power after the clans were formed. This is a deviation from norm.
Then again, the crusaders would have just destroyed the wardens when they could. The warden way is weak. Defense is no for a warrior, but a coward. Or did that some how get lost in this translation?
Also, all the clans have wardens and crusaders in them. Yet none of the clans wiped them out. Explain this one.
Second. The Prince had destroyed a little over a lance with his Battlemaster before the walking wounded showed up. But that is mech forces. This does not mention the vehicles or infantry. Which we know infantry were guarding the NAIS. They were the ones to finally stop the last commandos from comstar.
Thru out history, there have been more then a few times were warrior driven cultures followed a non warrior. So the attempts to say it doesn't happen is wrong.
However what he forgot is that cultural norms are passed down by the parents to the children and then subsequently to their children – we are all trapped by the historical and cultural norms that out progenitors install in us as children - how many of us remember the songs that were sung to us as children or the stories that were told to us about our cultural heroes – thus there will ever be a Davion, Kurita, Steiner, Marik, Liao and Cameron characteristics within the mix, that will rise up now and again.
Then the clans would never have become the way they are. The warriors would never have surrendered to Kerensky's vison, as well as the civilians according to this statement. And for clearing up a misfact, Cameron characteristic wouldn't be there as the story says no known Cameron blood ties survived the Amaris war, that left with the exodus.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Now. With changing how the exodus road, and even just some of the 3025 era for the alts become laughable to even try to follow anything canon.
The exodus idea means nothing of the first war happens, so anything coming after it is gone. Didn't happen.
Possible reasons. The planets and even regions near the league may well have joined them, and not a single one of them wasn't force into the house they were in. They would have also suffered from Amaris's forces.
Two. None of the houses helped bring about peace, so this shows most there, they were not a priority. This does lead to the first one, so I can agree it might just be a sub cause.
The exchange of planets that happened during the first war didn't happen. The invasion used nukes and bombardments to remove defenders so the troops could move on quickly. Without that, the main drives, such as the DC nearly destroying the FS wouldn't have happened. So alot of the marriages and births would have been different. None of those ruling today would be born into the situation they were.
Three. The industries were not destroyed to the point of scraping by for spare parts, meaning the entire losses of the first war would not have happened. With this, there may never have been a break and the entire succession wars may well have been one long war.
3025 and beyond.
Saying the writers screwed up and allowed the CC to remain yet doing the same thing with the alt, only at a later time frame is following that stupid story line. Sun Tzu and Kali would have been hunted and killed. If not by the FC/FWL, then some of their own people. The DC would not have allowed Kali into their borders and her ties to the Thugee were sure to bring them into the DC.
The end of the FC civil war. Katherine would have been killed no matter what. Even a lone soldier would have put a bullet thru her skull to avoid her getting away with her crimes. Even if it meant dying immediately afterwards. Victor probably would have done it himself, giving in to the fact she sent the assassin against Omi. The DC would use the same thing. They may well have even give over a few worlds to soothe the FC people for it.
Even Heimdall could be used. She destroyed millions of lives with her games, and grab for power. Only one, claiming to work alone would do so.
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Wick
07/01/19 05:48 PM
45.43.104.179
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More on the "on par" statement:
NUMBERS:
Field Manual ComStar, p 14 (3052): ComStar redeployed the equivalent of 144 combined arms regiments to Tukayyid.
Objective Raids, p 13-43 (3054): AFFS, 56 regiments; LCAF, 131 regiments; DCMS, 60 regiments; FWLM, 74 regiments; CCAF 29 regiments; SIMF, 9 regiments.
Granted this is after the invasion and represents about 50 traditionally AFFS regiments reassigned the Lyran state command to help guard the Clan border, but its obvious that ComStar fielded a larger military than any single house by a fair margin, and was only challenged by the combined AFFC.
EXPERIENCE:
I don't think its any secret that the ComGuards were exceptionally green and in this regard a poor match for the mostly regular/veteran House militaries, let along the elite Clans.
COMPOSITION:
ComGuard had much better technology than the Houses, mostly Star League-era stuff, and all very well maintained. The Clan stuff would still be better though. Also, ComGuards maintained a large aerospace component - a dedicated Level III for each Level IV, or 1/6 of their forces. The House militaries are more like 5-8% aerospace, and generally reserve those units for garrison duty or major planetary assaults, making them greener than the ground forces.
TACTICS:
ComGuards, either guarding an HPG facility or at Tukayyid were playing the role of an entrenched defender, which is the strongest military position. They'd have strong aerospace superiority to the House militaries, and competitive to the Clans. (Tyra Miraborg and her 15 minutes of fame aside, the Inner Sphere powers were totally overwhelmed by Clan aerospace forces in every engagement.)
So with raw numbers, superior position and control of the skies, its quite possible the ComGuards could make up for their lack of experience to compete with the House militaries. Focht knew this and played to his military's strengths at Tukayyid, making his forces the defender in all cases with superior ammunition supply and logistics. The Clans brought 25 galaxies (roughly equivalent to 100-125 regiments in battle value), which should have been enough, but the Clans weren't used to fighting long, drawn out battles over the course of days, and all but the Wolves were running short of ammo after a day or two. ComGuards took a beating early, but as the Clans ran out of ammo and stretched their supply lines too far, their experience and weaponry advantages were curtailed. Only the Wolves were savvy enough to foresee this outcome, and struck with heavily energy-weapon configurations. The other clans just didn't prepare smartly for the coming battle (and the home Clans would have roasted them for it.) So despite being green, ComGuards won mostly by surviving a battle of attrition thanks to having more ammo on hand, more quickly able to repair minor damage, and continuing to put up resistance from fortified positions. Remember that the Clans didn't fight until all dead; Ulric and Focht were watching each battle unfold and mutually agreed when a Clan was no longer capable of taking the objective. When each Clan other than the Wolves were losing 40-50% of their offense through ammunition shortages, that tipped the scales. It didn't matter that the ComGuards were green or had inferior equipment. They were able to make more of their equipment last longer and had the superior position. They didn't need to beat the Clanners as much as outlast them.
I don't see the home Clans as doing anything but accusing the invading Clans (sans Wolf) of being exceptionally stupid at Tukayyid. No plague or curse to blame the failure upon. Just poor tactics. Perhaps its a hindsight accusation for the home Clans to make against the invaders, but its hard to argue. Maybe if every Clan had fought at Tukayyid and they all got humiliated, there wouldn't be any fighter-pointing and it can be blamed on some kind of plague/curse, but you can't abjure them all. I find it more likely the 10 home Clans just think of the six failing Tukayyid clans as weak and stupid as opposed to cursed or sick. And if you're weak and stupid, we're going to attack you, not defend your incompetence by building a wall between us.
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Requiem
07/01/19 05:52 PM
1.158.130.13
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What is considered “Normal” changes over time within all societies!
For the Clans, initially the Normal was a warden philosophy. However, over time this Normal shifts to either a Right Wing or Left Wing philosophy / politically – have a look at the policies of any Government over time the initial philosophy of what is important now is not the same as the philosophy of a hundred years ago.
Italy - Roman 2,000 years ago - 1,000 Dark Age - Renaissance era - the Italy of today.
When comparing a Clans “Normal” it must be done within a specific time-frame – it is therefore a mistake to compare the Clans of the 3050s with that of its inception.
Yes, there are Wardens and Crusaders within every Clan, however how does the leaders, the Khan and the sa-khan, become the leaders and how do they impose their will - as an example consider America Republicans / Democrats – Australia Labour / Liberal – majority rule – can it be said that there is a democracy for the Warrior Leadership? Otherwise mass trials of Position?
And yet within some the Clans philosophical debates this became a rift ….. and the rift became ...
Clan Wolf – Clan Wolf in Exile ... the Clan splits in two.
Clan Cloud Cobra and Fire Mandrill – factionalism into Crusader / Warden groups within their own Clan.
Clan Coyote – the rift got so bad it could have brought about their absorption. Eight entire Blood-name houses were eliminated because of the strife – the Blood Scandal.
Clan Ice Hellion – with the Warden-Dragoon Compromise they were so outraged they were going to launch an invasion of their own – thus producing a Trial of Grievance – thus a civil war ensured.
The Price and the Battle at NAIS
Semantics, your equating security guards within NAIS as fighting alongside the prince? I was under the belief it was MechWarrior within a ’Mech with that of another MechWarrior within a ’Mech – as this is how you usually look at it isn’t it?
So, did any of the infantry use anti-mech weapons / tactics during the battle? All I read concentrated on the infantry within the building fighting other infantry – ie. two separate engagements – one within the building – infantry – one outside the building – ‘Mechs.
Since when has any “Warrior-Culture” Battletech Clan followed a Non-Warrior / had a non-warrior Khan?
Cultural norms within society – missing the point – it is an undertone within society…. When growing up people of one society will in-still upon their children certain beliefs that represent the cultural norms. Example – Many native tribes have oral histories that is passed down through the generations – Japan – the Peach Boy – many Anglo-Saxon’s align with tales from King Arthur -China – the Monkey King etc. The question I ask is how many of these stories survived and were then re-told even in the Clans Domain in 3050 and beyond? My bet would be quite a few as they underpin our cultural and historical norms – what we consider as right and wrong / how we view the world around us as a society.
Yes the Clan’s main ethos of Mongol – Samurai – China society was to supposed to become the dominant belief system – however this view is predominately a warrior view. However, how many of the old Religions survived within the Clans and how many tales of their for-bearers also remain? It is to these that underpin so much of each societies values.
This is also a main error in the writing – it is quite clear from the pedestrian writing the developers of the game do not have a clear understanding regards this fact. If they did they would have realized that the repressive culture of the true born upon the free born should have produced more than one civil war between the two groups. The scientists rising up virtually on their own is a clear representation that the writers / developers have a very plebeian understanding of what they have created. There are many great writers / intellectuals from many countries if only they had discussions with more intellectuals the game would not have had as many issues as it does, as well as a level of writing that is continually targeted for a young teenager and has yet to grow up as many of supporters have.
As space operas go this one has way too many issues with it, a lack of continuance that makes the entire story very jerky as well as being overly too simplistic at times, and in more than one occasion a very badly thought out plot development is introduced where the scenarios presented are quite contrived and make little to no sense whatsoever.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 07:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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When comparing a Clans “Normal” it must be done within a specific time-frame – it is therefore a mistake to compare the Clans of the 3050s with that of its inception.
If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession,
So which statement isn't correct? The fact the clans changed from the beginning, and weren't destroyed? Or that the clans would destroy any that changed from the norm? There are crusaders and wardens in ALL of the clans. Even the Falcons and Vlad's wolves. Plus there are more then a few comparisons put up that compare the old clans to the new era.
Since when has any “Warrior-Culture” Battletech Clan followed a Non-Warrior / had a non-warrior Khan?
So now you clarify this. Your statement wasn't about clans but history of warrior cultures, including ancient Japan, Mongol and others. They did follow non warriors as they were children of the leaders. Not all, but they were there. Technically Critchall wasn't a warrior anymore. His skill had faded as he tried to keep control of the Falcons thru politics.
Do you really think the capital of the FS doesn't have units stationed at the NAIS, or a quick way to get there? Even those wounded infantry would have been there, that came in with the other wounded. Oh yeah. The FS was stupid about security. They didn't have several RCTS on the world. Infantry protect buildings. Mechs protect regions. But that would mean understanding what the RCTs actually do. Well any militia and such for that fact.
You are suggesting the trueborn culture was how the clans got their start? That the entire exodus force wasn't trueborns but freeborns that started it as the clans were made, and it wasn't trueborns that made the repressive society, but continued it and made it worse.
Do us all a favor and drop anything canon, because it just doesn't work. The same issues are showing up in the alt by trying to use anything canon is showing thru.
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ghostrider
07/01/19 08:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession,
By this very definition, the crusaders would:
One. Never allow sibko member with warden sympathizes to even try a trial of position in their clan, as it would violate their visions. They would be destroyed before this happens.
Two. Would never take a bondsman that is a warden for the very same reason. In addition, they are all weak anyways. So why waste the effort to retrain them.
Third. Would have been in a long standing war just to eliminate the threat.
Next. By hobbling the clans you are doing the same thing you accuse the writers of doing. Making 'their choice' be the stronger of the warring factions.
On top of this, the lack of casualties from the 3039 war, would have meant far more troops to counter the clan invasion, meaning they would have been stopped sooner, and not needed comstar to be written in to do so.
By your ideas of removing the invading clans, the home clans would never have allowed the invasion clans to compete for the il-clan without them. If forced to stay behind, as soon as the invasion stalled, the home worlds would have been a feeding frenzy of trials of possession, as the front line clans were weak and failures. So this alone remove canon from this point.
The perfect changes to the story isn't so perfect. To say that, means ignoring alot of things, just as the accused writers supposedly did in their version of the games history.
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Requiem
07/02/19 12:57 AM
1.158.130.13
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Wick,
NUMBERS:
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
So, what ever happened to these figures?
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
QUOTE: I don't see the home Clans as doing anything but accusing the invading Clans (sans Wolf) of being exceptionally stupid at Tukayyid.
Let me just say three words – Politics and Opportunism and Greed – What is the one desire almost all of the Home Clans want? Is it not to become a part of the Invasion and does not the Invading Clan’s defeat at Tukayyid give the Home Clans the right to question their competency.
Being stupid was never an excuse the Clans would tolerate.
However being able to exploit the current situation – being able to gain a measure of revenge, as well as access to their territory and to expand their standing.
Sorry, but I cannot see how many would not take up this chance, one way or another this political situation must be used to benefit the Home Clans over that of the invader Clans so that they can become stronger and more wealthy than they currently are.
Ghostrider,
Both of the above statements are correct at the same time – norms change and it is against these changing norms that they are judged.
Warrior Cultures follow the rule of succession – and as such as long as the child ruler is brought up within the warrior tradition and is able to demonstrate strength, cunning, the ability to be vicious on the battlefield they will be adopted into the “Warrior Lodge”.
Question:- What was the ultimate fate of Critchall who killed him and what was the chare levelled against him?
Warden Vs. Crusader – is this not why the Ice Hellions ended up in a civil War – is this not why the Wolf became two separate entities – is this not why there were so many battles of grievance during this age?
And I would not put it past Crusaders who were assigned to sibko training would remove the weak from the fold through a “training accident”.
How am I hobbling the Clans –Am I not suggesting to let the Clans be what they were supposed to be a Mongol – Samurai – China blended warrior, and as such given this blended psychology would they not act as I have suggested? i.e. Let the Clans be the Clans!
When defeated in such a disgraceful manner how could they still be allowed to be considered as an invading Clan – if they wish to retain this title and honour should they not prove their worthiness?
The Canon story can be said to ignore their culture as well as their psychology at this point – all I am suggestion is allowing the Clans to be the Clans.
What is so wrong with what I am suggesting? Sorry but I do not understand.
Having those Invader Clans who failed at Tukayyid to once again prove they are worthy of the honour of being considered to be an Invader Clan is, in my opinion, a very Clan like action.
The only question is where should these trials take place and how many units are involved to determine your Clan is still worthy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 01:27 AM
66.74.60.165
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is this not why the Wolf became two separate entities
Did you really read the refusal war? The two separate entities came from the fact that Vlad and the crusaders didn't die as Ulric tried to do. It was not a civil war in the Wolves. Had Vlad died, the wolves would have ceased to exist in the invasion forces. How do you get anything other then that?
How am I hobbling the Clans
Destroying them, so they can not rise to take out the IS. Making sure they do not carve up the IS when the Republic time. Much as was accused of the 3039 war.
As a side note, the writers were not for the clans, because if they were, Comstar would never have gotten to challenge the clans. More then 7 clans would have invaded, and there would not have been any stopping them at all. If nothing else, they were pro FS/FC. The fact the FS survived do to stupidity on the part of the DC with the Kentares massecre. Then taking out the CC from being a major player.
When defeated in such a disgraceful manner how could they still be allowed to be considered as an invading Clan – if they wish to retain this title and honour should they not prove their worthiness?
They got beat because most followed the clans ways of fighting. To be honest, the other clans would NOT have allowed only 4 then 7 clans to invade. This puts them completely out of the running to be Il-clan. Not something a warrior nation would allow. Ever. Twisting cultures to fit the desired effect, and suggesting they not do so long before or far after doesn't work either.
Having those Invader Clans who failed at Tukayyid to once again prove they are worthy of the honour of being considered to be an Invader Clan is, in my opinion, a very Clan like action.
This would mean challenging the invading clans in a face to face match. Which more then a few home clans would never do, as they would get beaten. And yet suggesting they are cowards and would abjure those very clans from the safety of the home worlds while a majority of those clans fighting forces are in the IS really shows knowledge of honor systems.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 01:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Canon story can be said to ignore their culture as well as their psychology at this point – all I am suggestion is allowing the Clans to be the Clans.
You had said a few times in previous threads, you did not understand the clans and their thoughts.
The mongols did not attack even up. They hit with all forces they had, and destroyed everything in their way. Nothing in the clans suggests this sort of behavior. They tended to hit with sneak attacks as well. Where is this in the mongol writings?
And if they were so belligerent, then there could never be an agreement to anything. With this, they could never have gotten past the civil war, much less rebuilt their society and improved on it.
The clans would not have invaded the IS if they were being clans before the war.
When defeated in such a disgraceful manner
How is being beaten by a larger force disgraceful? Did they some how just fall all over themselves and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn? Did they wet their cockpit seats? Except clan Wolf, these are the same warriors that beat them out to even be part of the invasion forces. So if they got beat then the entire clans got beat.
But again. The events changed before this makes this whole ordeal a waste of energy. This would not happen, as the IS would have had far more numbers then they did. The FC/DC would have met them and driving them back. Even greater tech would have been more available.
And with this, the FC civil war would not have happened. With the clans pushed back, Victor would not have gone to the clan homeworlds, so he would not have let Katherine do the **** she did. He would never have made her Reagent of the LC part. End of story.
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Requiem
07/02/19 03:21 AM
1.158.130.13
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And here is me reading the following wiki notes ….
“The permanent split of Clan Wolf into Crusader and Warden Clans. The 'Crusader' Clan Wolf, viewed by other Clans as rightful heir to the Wolf Clan, was founded by Vlad Ward. The 'Warden' Clan Wolf-in-Exile, led by Phelan Kell”,
and
“Ulric would simultaneously cripple or kill the strongest Crusader Clan and by sending the Warden elements of the Wolves into exile and safety into the Inner Sphere, he ensured his Clan would survive. By then placing all the Crusader Wolves into his own personal Galaxy, he would force Crusader Wolf to fight Crusader Jade Falcon in a war of mutual annihilation”.
What it comes down to in the end is that the Wolf Clan split into Crusader and Warden factions!
I am destroying the Clans so they are not around in the Republic era?
First, is this not an Alt History (as per the title of the Post)?
Second, have I not made it abundantly clear that virtually everything including the Clan invasion requires a re-write and the Jihad era should be removed permanently? Thus the Republic era will never occur in my Alt History!
Sorry, but I stand by my statement the game developers have hobbled the entire story in favour of the Clans from the time they were introduced to that of 3145 and probably beyond.
- The invasion writing alone supports this when you look at all the suggested battles – pitiful game development and writing does not begin to explain the number of worlds the clans were able to capture.
- Post one year lull – where was the introduction of a Kesselring line – where was the war of attrition including vehicle units (as used in Wolcott) – why were the IS denied the use warships Dropships with Naval weapons – why were the DC not allowed to strike back post Turtle Bay with Nukes and Kamikaze – why were special forces / SOE not allowed to kidnap / kill units in the Clan’s rear – why were no units allowed to hunt for Clan Supply lines in the Periphery – And the most damming of all – why just go after one Clans (Jags) as this defies political / military understanding – and why when they were upon Huntress did they not Loot it for everything it was worth (thus allowing the IS to have weapons parity with the Clans!)
- Refusal War – why didn’t any IS forces attack at the end of this – both the Falcons and the Wolves were spent as an effective and viable military force – the LA could have very easily defeated these two clans right then and there!
- They even allowed the clans to rig the game by saying garrison units were not part of the original bid – thus they were allowed to increase their numbers and yet what about the IS forces were they given time to rebuild theirs – No – and where are the vast numbers of IS Omni mechs / vehicles / aerospace that should have been created – if only allowing those few pitiful designs as well as limiting the IS’s access to advanced weaponry is not hobbling the game in favour of the clans I do not know what is!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry but I also stand by my view of how a “warrior culture” should act in in this case – there must be a trial to prove their worth once more – it is just a question of where the trial will take place and with what forces (you do realize this could be a one galaxy (each) fight on a periphery world don’t you?).
Quote: This would mean challenging the invading clans in a face to face match. Which more then a few home clans would never do, as they would get beaten.
Do you have no faith in those Clans that remained behind – I doubt they would have the same belief – they would fight and die for the right to promote their Clan to invader status. If given the chance, no matter the circumstances behind the reason, they would take it!
As this is an Alt History can I not first ask the question as to Abjure and then ask a second question to annexe / absorption?
Sorry no the Mongols did not constantly attack with all their forces and they did not destroy everything – the great Khan was busy building, introducing reading, writing, science and the arts – they even took a bribe from their enemy not to attack for quite some time – keep reading their history.
As I have stared before
With the establishment of the Star League and the SLDF – they (the IS) would have used most of the 15 years re-arming
Victor would have made his Mother and Sister co-regents in charge of the FC. And over time Katherine would become the sole regent.
In all likelihood the Clans should have been expelled from the IS. However they would have formed a buffer state between the IS and the Clan Home Worlds.
The IS would have formed new Periphery States – sponsored by the FC and the DC as a buffer state of their own between the Clans and the IS proper.
At this state Katherine would attempt to kill Victor / take the FC throne – which would succeed – he has spent too long away fighting on the front lines and not enough time looking after he state as he should have.
Victor now resigned to his Periphery exile ream, so he begins to rebuild with those who are still loyal to him.
The story continues on from there ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again. How do they hobble their own universe?
Saying that they need to do this and that, yet only assumptions of what they had, or could do is the basis of saying they needed to do this or that. And then adding in numbers that wasn't used in THIER universe.
With the changes in place, canon is no longer anything you can follow. Events don't take place, as they would not develop along the canon routes. Just drop all canon.
Another event that would not take place without the Tukayyid fight. Learning the exodus road. Mechwarrior Trent captured the comstar agent while the Jaguars were being routed. This would not take place.
The alt is doing the same things that were said about the canon.
have I not made it abundantly clear that virtually everything including the Clan invasion requires a re-write
Then rewrite it. Don't just change a few things and think it will work out right. More and more holes show up as the story gets moving.
The whole citizens of a nation striking back at an occupier was shot down when suggested the CC would do so, but now advocated because the clans are the target.
Warrior culture was not cut and dry as the movies and shows have them.
the game developers have hobbled the entire story in favour of the Clans from the time they were introduced to that of 3145 and probably beyond.
Again. If that was true, then the LC part of the FC would have been ripped apart, no truce, and all clans would have come in. The race for terra would have named the leadership for eternity, and the idea that ANY of the clans would sit it out still doesn't register?
If nothing, invasion corridors for all, and how soon they could start would have been the fights for doing this. Not to see who would sit it out. Put that into your warrior culture of the Mongols.
As I have stared before. From this point on would not happen given the changes in the alt. Less forces destroyed in the 3039 war. More military being built and trained as all would be gearing up for the next succession war that would come. All these extra forces in the DC/FC and the FRR would benefit from this as well. That means no comstar truce. The FC/DC might be able to get their own, but I doubt it. They would removed the clans from their area, and possibly help the FRR. The comguard would be busy trying to defend comstar because their duplicity would be revealed as the two houses started taking back their lands.
So the Star League would not have been reformed.
But again. Logic is being throw out in order to push the story just like the canon story did.
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Requiem
07/02/19 06:47 PM
1.158.130.13
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Creating a plausible story line based upon the story line created by myself is in itself the removal of many of the Canon lore for that of a more robust story line.
For example the only way to remove Tukayyid from the game is to 1. Decrease the range / Damage and increase Heat of all Clan Weapons 2. Ensure the Star League is established at an earlier time frame 3. Allow the IS to begin warship production no later than 3041 4. Ensure the ComGuard become part of the SLDF upon the establishment of the Star League and the SLDF 5. Retain the original IS units as per the 20 year update book and not that of the revisionist House books that reduced their forces numbers 5. Allow attrition warfare tactics from the get go – mass attacks of hovercraft / VTOL vehicles – allow commandos / SOE etc etc.
Ensure there is an established Clan resupply lines (tonnage received) as well as Sibko graduate reinforcement numbers for the entire invasion – so that if the IS can kill the Clans quicker than they can get resupplied the Clan forces will begin to suffer due to depleted numbers – ie. their original bid was too small and they are now paying for that hubris. (as per the Canon they just assumed they had unlimited numbers of both supplies and people and never once considered this “minor” aspect for the game – biased again!)
Post one year truce – establishment of multiple “Kesselring” lines in front of the Clans utilising the tactics of Wolcott.
There should also be a reduction in the number of actual Clans – it is clearly evident that the game developers created way too many clans from the get go – by 3050 half of them should have been removed or never created in the first place. OR/- there should have been one il-Khan and il-Clan from the get go and you reduce the size of every Clan and base the scenario upon the Great Kubla Khan’s invasions, and then yes the invasion could include all the Clans from the get go. But this would also require a total revamp as to the Clan traditions / society / everything would have to change to accommodate this.
There should also be debate regarding the Clan’s home worlds location – in the interest of establishing many future wars they should be way closer to the IS than that of the Cannon writings - - Look at the 3050 deep periphery map – no more than three times this distance away – what was established is just silly in the extreme - this distance will negate the possibility of a future where the IS invades the Clan home worlds en-mass in the same manner as the Clans have with the IS
Learning the exodus road – yes I agree Trent would no longer exist – however I would consider re-introducing a new bug-eye – Mata Hari II who is able to shadow a clan resupply fleet all the back to the Clan Home Worlds with the use of bug drones that can latch onto a clan Jumpship / dropship and has “Black Box” technology incorporated into its frame.
If there are holes please elaborate.
Yes, I still contend the game developers are increasingly hobbling the game in favour of their pet Clans – The FC is ripped apart by 3145 – the Falcons new Empire – the Wolf Empire – The Cats empire (in the FWL) etc. – have a look at this era’s map it is quite clear they have allowed the game to develop so that these new empires could develop. And yet all through this Clan development there has not been one word as to how the ordinary people are suffering under a Clan society – going from a liberal democratic society to the totalitarian Clan state without even a whimper – HOBBLING THE GAME YET AGAIN!
– look at how the forces of the IS have diminished year in year out so that by 3145 the RCT of this era is barely recognisable to the RCT of 3050 era.
Look at the Canon writing as to what the Wolves did to Tharkad and the Archon. This just goes to show the level of of favouritism as well as the characters they are putting forth within all the novels etc – where is a single IS hero within the Canon story arc at this stage who can Combat the Clans?
OK the CC
They were a totalitarian state that repressed their people.
Yes the FC destroyed they ‘Mech units then went after the Capital itself.
Yes they then would have have gone “planet hopping” and put down with extreme force any Home Guard / Reserve units.
Yes they then would have put in place a more liberal government – Provided more food, more luxury goods etc.
yes there will be resistance units for many years to come however over time as the wealth of the individual increases over time so too will the number of extremism causes decrease.
Yes many would have welcomed this and a great many would have resented it – however I contend it would be either Germany or Japan WW2 scenario here – I gave them an expert in the area of finance to rule the lower half and a Lyran to rule the upper half – restoration will lead to economic prosperity slowly over the next 40 – 60 years.
And Yes I have left open the possibility of a new Liao empire – Sun Tzu and his sister Kali are alive and with their Aunt.
QUOTE: The race for terra would have named the leadership for eternity, and the idea that ANY of the clans would sit it out still doesn't register?
Can I use one of your arguments- how could they sell books if the game is won by one of the Clans?
The IS Canon Clans of 3145 can be said to be only concerned with establishing their own massive empires out of the remnants of Great Houses – they are no longer interested in Terra or becoming the il-Clan.
The story has taken on fanciful and bewildering scenarios that make no point what soever ….
Anything can be rationalized even the bizarre state of the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/19 09:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you honestly think the home clans would agree to the initial invasion to begin with?
A clansman would give up the right to become the leader of all clans until they died, with a legacy of his genes ruling the clans into eternity?
There is no way they would allow this. Once the 13 other clans found out they were not the main invasion, and given they all believed the 4 would succeed, there would have been a major movement before the invasion forces even left.
And worse, adding in a clan that specifically said it didn't want to participate, which would leave a slot open for others, would not happen.
So a clan civil war may start from this.
The CC had fanatically loyal people in it. Not just soldiers, but civilians as well. I will grant the belief most were people that relied on house Liao, but not all of them.
the only way to remove Tukayyid from the game
So the FC and DC having more troops at the time of the invasion would not have countered the clans so Comstar was not needed isn't a way to remove Tukayyid? Having the whole clan issue of who will actually get a chance to become the leader of all clans and have their clan be leader for all eternity isn't another?
And now to use one of your defenses. With the black box tech, they could get around comstars forges reports from worlds that were under attack or conquered. So the houses could make a counter attack, stalling the clans drive.
Can I use one of your arguments- how could they sell books if the game is won by one of the Clans?
That would work if we weren't talking about the alt. Why? Are you selling books for your alt?
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ghostrider
07/02/19 09:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Actually, they could very well sell books if one clan became il-clan. All the others decide to rip that one apart, as well as getting WOB to attack them along with all other houses. A full grand melee concept, where the IS is up for grabs. So ceding entities and such would succeed, as all with any sort of dreams of leading would create complete chaos. Even the clans doing their free for all in and out of the IS. Remove all the states and make little pacts and alliances to survive and grow. The Brewer house would eclipse the Stieners at that point, as they controlled Defiance.
The basic line of canon is they can do with their creation as wanted. Saying the only way to 'fix' this is with specific ideas. Yet those are done without knowledge of what the creators had for any sort of resources. I could say that planet x has a moon z around it that has a crystal that increases fusion power by so many factors. Is it in the creators universe? No.
Did a simple thing like finishing off the CC in 3039 remove all future canon storyline from the alt? Almost certainly.
According to your own figures, the war would have been far less damaging to all states then the DC hit. And the benefits creating more boon for the FC. This changes canon story line even further.
This would also mean there is no reason for Victor to head out to the clan home worlds as they would just fight them as they did the other houses. And this would also mean production of clan tech.
It is also likely the Dragoon meeting would not be needed, so Omi would not have personally met Victor. That could be said for all those that did, including getting the FWL to make the weapon packages. Just by doing the CC war in 3039.
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Requiem
07/03/19 03:38 AM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: Do you honestly think the home clans would agree to the initial invasion to begin with?
Warrior societies are usually (on the whole) a superstitious / deeply ingrained into a religious cult society and are dominated by their traditions and their lore – the Clans, with their totems, are no less ingrained psychologically to their way of thinking.
As they are all given over to the Cult of Kerensky to one form or other – in addition or their ‘unique’ education when it comes to topics such as ‘ethics, ‘scientific racism’ and ‘eugenics’ have been utilized to indoctrinate true-born individuals into its creed.
However when it comes down to it they are like the knights hearing the Popes call for the First Crusade. If the ‘Pope’ says invade they will invade, and like the knights of old they have but one objective in the back of their minds.
However in this case due to their “unique” philosophical outlook and the law that they all share they believe only the worthy may become part of the invasion – thus the reason for the trials to determine whom is worthy and who is not. Thus an organised ‘tourney’ is called to determine whom is worthy.
However within a warrior societies when an event occurs such as a cataclysmic disaster, such as Tukayyid where their martial prowess is called into question, this will give rise to questions as to their continued worthiness – and as such the need to hold a new ‘tourney’ - new trials to determine if their continued worthiness – if found wanting they must be removed as per their lore, law and tradition.
To go against lore, law and tradition will result in immediate abjuration from the whole.
Thus this is no way a Civil War it is a second tourney (similar in size and ferocity as the first to determine whom was initially worthy) to determine if the invading clans are still worthy of the honour that was bestowed upon them by the application of the martial prowess.
The Fall of the CC
Please re-read above – “yes there will be resistance units for many years to come however over time as the wealth (and freedom) of the individual increases over time so too will the number of extremism causes decrease”.
Tukayyid
What I am saying is the idea of having a Tukayyid peace for 15 years is a little strange and as such if the writer wanted it removed there is a combination of events a writer could use to ensure this scenario does not come the fore. One such is returning all the house units back to their original numbers before the game developers decided to hobble the IS by reducing the number of all the IS forces as evidenced from the Clan era onwards. A point I view as criminal on the part of the developers.
QUOTE: Can I use one of your arguments- how could they sell books if the game is won by one of the Clans? That would work if we weren't talking about the alt. Why? Are you selling books for your alt?
In the Canon universe – do you see any of the Clans as their empires are increasing (circa. 3145) moving towards Terra? As is this decision on the same par as their being a First Lord circa. 3040’s when the FC was in ascendant?
If one of the Clans does take Terra and declare themselves the il-Clan doesent their lore, law and tradition demand all the other clans acknowledge this – if they decide to attack this Clan and annihilate it does thin not mean they are spitting on the word (and Cult) of Kerensky?
QUOTE: The Brewer house would eclipse the Steiners at that point.
Sorry, but I do not understand what is being postulated here – why would all the Clans invade if one became the il-Clan? Especially in a post reeving society within the Clan Home Worlds?
Question: is the question of logistics – resource material / sibko numbers – within the creator’s universe? Yes – they were when it came to IS Mech production, so why when it came to the issue of the Clans this point was totally ignored? Why does the writing regarding the invasion provide the Clans with all the munitions and replacement parts they need when they need it and all the replacement personnel when they need it when it takes six months to reach the inner sphere from clan space? If they obtained IS plants to manufacture ordinance why were they not destroyed prior to capture, why was there never an SOE mission to destroy them if the Clans were so dependent upon using IS ordinance?
Hobbling the game once More?
QUOTE: The basic line of canon is they can do with their creation as wanted.
Saying it’s my bat and ball and if you don’t do what I say I am going home with my bat and ball is a little childish. What’s worse is treating your customers like they are children!
As for the idea that Victor should go to the Clan Home Worlds with his Army – all I can say is I am not surprised Katherine usurped him – rather than being the first price he wanted to play soldier – the duty of the first prince is that to his people it is in no way being at the head of the army. This is why he has capable generals.
When all is said and done Victor was a great General and yet when you compare him to great leaders (statesmen) he is a very poor excuse for a leader of a nation. It would have been far better for the FC if Katherine was give the throne and Victor was made her General - her strong right arm who would prosecute all the wars in her name. The FC would have come out in a far better place with Katherine at the hem than that of Victor at the helm or that of their brothers and sisters. She is politics personified – and only she should have been considered to have had the Tile Archon - First Princess – Machiavelli / the Borgia’s of Italy would have recognised her as a true monarch.
OK, my reasoning
3039/40 – CC defeated and absorbed into the FC;
From this time until the arrival of the Clans the number of FC units increase;
In all likelihood the FWL will enter into a military / economic alliance with the FC - due to an arranged marriage;
Canon
3050 – the Clans invade – Cannon the Clans strike deep into the IS as the IS is incapable of stopping them. The ComGuard stops them and the IS gains 15 years of Truce.
My Alt.
The Clans do in no way make it as far as they do – in all likelihood they only make half the distance the Canon story eludes to – they suffer far more casualties and many of the Clans are requesting additional Clans be allowed into the IS to elevate their logistics / replacement personnel problems they are experiencing.
For me - putting Tukayyid in or not is still an un-known at this stage.
Yes at this stage there is no reason for Victor to head to huntress.
The reformation of the Star League and the SLDF occurs – continual fighting along the border.
Two of the Clans switch sides to the Star League.
Ultimately a complete blueprint of Clan Technogy is provided to the Star League who has it distributed throughout the IS or it is acquired through reverse engineering capturing clan techs within the clan’s rear.
Over time the IS gains military technology parity with the clans and strikes against all of the Clans forcing them to retreat into the deep periphery.
New satellite realms are established (to act a buffer between the IS and that of the Clans) within the Deep Periphery by the FC, DC, FRR (Ghost Bears) and Cats.
Victor will no longer welcomed within the IS – Katherine is now in charge – he retreats into his new Periphery realm and consolidates power there as the realm grows over time.
Sorry but the Dragoon meeting would go ahead, as it is an independent event separate from the Fall of the CC, the Dragoons are still an autonomous mercenary unit who were once clans and have now thrown their lot in with the IS – the IS still needs them to explain the rules as they are interpreted by the Clans – thus the Omika / Victor meeting will still occur.
This also includes the FWL weapon packages – they are an independent event separate from the fall of the CC – and as stated above if there has been a union between the FWL and the FC then the weapons packages are still on.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 01:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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The main law is all warriors live to rule. To purposefully step back and say, no. I don't want to rule, isn't going to sit with any warrior. As stated about being the first lord in other threads, this is just the same thing. There is no way any of them would even agree to using only 4 clans. To prove yourself, you reach Terra. Otherwise, you have shown you are not worthy. It's that simple. And then to give up some of your warriors so those that 'won' are full strength?
What I am saying is the idea of having a Tukayyid peace for 15 years is a little strange and as such if the writer wanted it removed there is a combination of events a writer could use to ensure this scenario does not come the fore. What does this have to do with the alt? It is bagging on the original writing, but as the events have changed, there is no place for this. The battle should not have come to pass. Comstar should not have gotten involved with the Comguards as the nations would have more assets due to the changes in the 4th and 3039 wars.
In the Canon universe – do you see any of the Clans as their empires are increasing (circa. 3145) moving towards Terra? As is this decision on the same par as their being a First Lord circa. 3040’s when the FC was in ascendant? Actually, this is the logical outcome of the Psy-ops being done against the clans. Greed and corruption has taken hold and the leaders decided to make empires for themselves. Taking Terra was a symbol of the past. Now, you rule your area and expand. This outcome is the same as the Fiefdoms in the deep periphery that was brought forth.
QUOTE: The Brewer house would eclipse the Steiners at that point. This was suggested as the entire Battletech universe crumbles into little states and alliances. That was a suggested alt to some things, which the clans creating their little empires would be part of.
And to go against tradition and law. There is nothing saying you can not call for a trial of possession to become the il-khan once another has the title. Do you honestly think the Jaguars or Falcons would not do so if the Wolves or Bears won it? According to your take on warrior societies, no warrior would sit back and allow another to rule just because they were the first to touch land. They would fight for control. This is why most warrior societies that don't have something like Bushido in it, fail. After a while, there is no way to stop the infighting.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 02:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Victor not leaving the IS means Katherine's power base is not there. Being regent, and Victor being a distance from the FC is what gave Katherine the power to take over. It wasn't a popular uprising that did it. It was her having a powerbase and being politically sneaky.
The Dragoon meeting came about as the house leaders shown they could not stop the clans without coming together and working together. As the clans get stopped, probably before Tyra even gets into it with the Wolves, it isn't needed. And with this being change, the suicide run would probably have not happened. No year of peace to even think of having the meeting.
This is why leaving canon completely out of the new rewrite is becoming a stronger case.
And a rewrite isn't what is seems you are after. It is a reboot.
Alot of the unrealistic and logic filled holes are being kept, but moved around. The CC needs to be destroy, so the FC doesn't fight the DC, yet keeping Sun Tzu and Kali alive amounts to the same thing.
With the FWL being more friendly, your idea of Victor and Isis may come to pass, meaning Katherine has less power overall, though some in the LC would freak out about it. Omi would not have bore Victor a child, so that story line is gone. Changing events to come to the conclusion wanted, just doesn't work. Not trying to keep canon in there. To many other logic holes open up.
The alt is fine as an alt.
Saying it’s my bat and ball and if you don’t do what I say I am going home with my bat and ball is a little childish. What’s worse is treating your customers like they are children! Did you think that maybe a majority of the players like the canon verse, and you are but part of a very small group that thinks they need to be in charge of remaking it?
Do you play other games and say their story line needs to be erased and restarted?
I suspect since most I see are death match people, the clan tech was the best thing to happen to the game.
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Requiem
07/03/19 04:40 PM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: The main law is all warriors live to rule. To purposefully step back and say, no. I don't want to rule, isn't going to sit with any warrior
And yet by 3145 here we are!
QUOTE: There is no way any of them would even agree to using only 4 clans.
And yet how many invading Clans were there?
QUOTE: What does this have to do with the alt?
I was under the opinion an Alt. Universe was just that …. The ability to consider any historical point from many different options …. Even to the point of not including it in the Alt. History, and then discussing how your reasoning came to that point.
QUOTE: In the Canon universe – do you see any of the Clans as their empires are increasing (circa. 3145) moving towards Terra?
In the Canon universe the Clans will have to go through “Fortress Republic” – this is how the developers will smack the Clans around and yet not to the point the overall size of their new empire decreases to a great extent. Thus blunting the edge as it were … maybe even killing off some of the more “unique” Khans that have quite outlived their purpose (Jade Falcon / Wolf ?)
There will be many new ‘Mech / Power Armour / Aerospace / Warship etc designs coming out of Fortress Republic – this will be a given – something along the lines of the WOB ‘Mechs on steroids as well as a few new weapon systems that will put many of the Clans and the Great Houses in their place.
QUOTE: this is the logical outcome of the Psy-ops being done against the clans. Greed and corruption has taken hold and the leaders decided to make empires for themselves.
I see it as the Clans conforming (learning to live in) their new environment.
QUOTE: There is nothing saying you can-not call for a trial of possession to become the il-khan once another has the title.
And yet the way I read it once a Clan has the title they have it in perpetuity.
QUOTE: no warrior would sit back and allow another to rule just because they were the first
And then I went on to explain the importance of lore, law and tradition in keeping a unified society, have a look at the Spartans as an example of Clan Society – especially when it comes to the idea of Helots.
QUOTE: Victor not leaving the IS means Katherine's power base is not there.
I bed to differ, whilst the cat is away the mice play!, whilst Victor is away Katherine can form numerous political and economic power blocks to thwart Victor in the future. One of these power blocks was via a successful media campaign in which she be becomes the darling of the people – thus by the time Victor returns there is a popular uprising by the people to enthrone Katherine rather than an absent war mongering individual – the Star League has entered into an era of peace the people desire such ruler – they have been pre-conditioned by psychology to accept Katherine as that ruler.
No the Dragoon meeting came about because Wolf Dragoons had finally come to turms with their decision to support the infer sphere – and by doing so they provided the leaders of the Inner Sphere with the Knowledge they required to understand their new foe.
It was a way of purging past sins so that they could move forward.
As for the Kamikaze run – again this is an independent action that is in no way dependent upon a variable such as the Dragoon meeting.
If you enter the idea of a Reboot rather than a rewrite then then this gives me Carte blanche to do anything. Even to the point of killing off the Clans completely – they went on their exodus, they found a new home, the caught a rare disease they all died – The End.
Sorry I beg to differ that Keeping Sun-Tzu and Kali amounts to being unrealistic. As a parent do you not wish to keep your children safe – even rom their psychotic mother who is loosing her sense of reality each day the invasion of Sian is progressing (just like her father) and to the point where the bunker scene is beginning to appear like a suicide cults final day – thus ensuring their survival with their Aunt who can bring them up in a loving household is not the most unrealistic situation to consider.
Victor – Isis – Omika
Sometime between 3040-3050 when a formal peace treaty is announced Victor and Isis (or someone else as Thomas should have died in the assassination explosion due to the concussion waves of the explosive within a brick room) are formally engaged to one another
Clan Invasion War
Dragoons Meeting – Victor is introduced to Omika
…
Victor is triumphant the Clans are kicked out of the IS
Victor’s throne has been usurped by Katherine
Victor retreats back into the Deep Periphery
The engagement between the Victor and the Isis (?) is called off due to Victor no longer being in power.
Somehow Omika returns to Victor within the Deep Periphery ….. DC goes ballistic at this …… new story.
Where are the holes?
I agree that many of the players like the Canon – however when you go onto all the other forums out there how many of them include Alt. Histories – All of them? Thus there is a groundswell of opinion who do not like the Canon. There has never been a comprehensive census by the players as to what is good / bad and if there has been can I say it might be a little flawed considering the introduction of Jihad, Republic era etc. so calling the Alt. Universe players in the minority might be in error – they could be in the majority.
So,
How many people like the Jihad era?
How many people like the Republic era of removing your military mechs for agricultural implements and having only Two mechs on one world?
How many people like the Dark age?
Sorry but the ideas that have been postulated by the game designers over recent years appear to be getting a little silly in my opinion as well as incredibly biased and one sided in many of the wars to the point the game designers have lost my respect as to what is been coming out over the last couple of years.
With the role playing games I am into the world is how I want it to be (DM restrictions though) - If I want to go to this city and do this and that - I can – If the wider universe does something silly I do enter into discussions as to why I believe it is silly. The fighting should only be a small, yet integral part of the game, what is more important is the people along the way and how you achieve your objectives within the game – you do not need to use your mech every second of the day to blow things up to achieve your objective.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 07:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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I bed to differ, whilst the cat is away the mice play!, whilst Victor is away Katherine can form numerous political and economic power blocks to thwart Victor in the future. Where is Victor going? Not the clan homeworlds as the clans would not be the big threat they were in canon. They would be held to a small area and slowly pushed be into the periphery with the increased units that weren't destroyed in 3039. Or did you change this again?
No the Dragoon meeting came about because Wolf Dragoons had finally come to turms with their decision to support the infer sphere. They did this when the refused to return to the clans. Then refused the recall, which was showing the clan council they were not going to come back. How you got the meeting was them coming to terms with their decision is far fetched.
As for the Kamikaze run – again this is an independent action that is in no way dependent upon a variable such as the Dragoon meeting. The kamikaze run is what allowed the meeting to take place. The year of peace from losing the il-khan, and electing a new one. So you are right, the run didn't depends on the Dragoons, but the meeting was done during the lull. So how did this get backwards?
If you enter the idea of a Reboot rather than a rewrite then then this gives me Carte blanche to do anything. Even to the point of killing off the Clans completely – they went on their exodus, they found a new home, the caught a rare disease they all died – The End.
Your game is yours. But saying the canon is wrong because you don't like it, then keeping with it is the issue. Making the same plot holes but only with those against your favorite is doing the same thing in reverse.
The entire argument with the alts and such is the fact the canon did not fit your views, and that ONLY your views could save it. Dump it entirely and make your own universe. Just stop the garbage of saying the alt is the ONLY way the game should evolve for all.
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ghostrider
07/03/19 07:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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How are all the alt histories portrait?
They say their way is the only way it should be? Do they stick tightly to the canon story, so it is nothing more then a small area being changes while the larger picture remains?
Maybe looking at some of the player companies will show you how to do it. Nothing in them says the canon is junk and says only their way works.
They have their little niche and that is it. They don't become the Star Lord or il-khan. They don't change the borders themselves.
Crossroadian alt is the only one I have even the slightest clue on, and very little of it says the canon is horrible. They just took ideas they had and built on it. I don't agree with some of the tech and units they have, but they haven't gone to Terra and destroyed the IS with it. To my knowledge, they keep to their small area of the periphery, and don't really interact much with the IS.
And if the other boards have them on there, then suggest this on there.
Where are the holes?
Other then the periphery realm, it is the same nonsense of the canon, as you so love to put it.
But instead of fighting on the 'northern' edge of the IS, it is now in the periphery. This changes the fact that the clans can no longer hit the LC and such. Does it end the endless wars?
No. It makes is so the clan fight isn't important to IS politics anymore. It is a side show, just like the CC in the alt.
Yet the reasons why things are done, ring the same way canon does, but because it was done by someone outside the developers, therefor it is much better.
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Requiem
07/03/19 11:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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When the SLDF engages all the remaining belligerent Clans within the Inner Sphere it will not be just a question of fighting them to the edge of the periphery and then stopping. The SLDF are going to fight all the way through the Deep Periphery until they reach one end just beyond Nueva Castile and extending all the way beyond the planet of Ghent on the other. This entire area is to become a new buffer state between the Clans and the Inner Sphere in the event they decide to return.
(Nt. This entire area, in the future, will become Victor’s new realm)
Sorry but I do not consider the Clans expulsion from the IS to be a hole – it is an opportunity to expand the game beyond its current canon stagnation.
However for all this new (Victor’s) ream purportedly aims to protect the Inner Sphere from a second invasion the clans can still flank this and attack either the Lyran half of the FC or the DC . However to do this effectively the Clans will have to establish a new supply line that will be susceptible to attack by Victor. Thus forcing them (the Clans) even further around – and subsequently increasing the time taken to resupply any invasion even further from the original 5 / 6 months to something like 7 / 9 months depending on how far you go around the periphery to form your new attack corridor.
The logistics of such an invasion will therefore be a nightmare to establish.
The wars therefore will not end they will just become more complicated to establish if an IS Vs. Clan War. However a Victor’s new realm Vs. Clan shouldn’t be a problem.
Though the issue of distance still poses a problem between the IS and that of Clan Space. If the game is looking at an Inner Sphere invasion of the Clan Home Worlds to get around this, and establish future wars between the IS and the SLDF, there can be only one solution a new Jump-Ship engine that will double the original Jump distance and double the amount of Dropships transportable for a similar size / weight etc as an existing warship engine.
The introduction of which could half the time between the two realms and would require whole new tactics to consider when defending / attacking.
So no the issue of a second Clan war will be a continual problem / continual war with the new Star League until such a time as the Inner Sphere invades Clan space, way into the future and they destroy their realm once and for all or the Clan people finally rise up in mass and kill of the entire Clan Culture (including their eugenics program).
However I would like to say within the Canon universe the Home Clans are a side show for the IS and they have always been a side show. It was only when they invaded did they cease being a side show.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
07/03/19 11:49 PM
45.43.104.179
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>>> "the removal of many of the Canon lore for that of a more robust story line."
Debatable. As we've shown, there's some logic problems. At least regarding the Hadrian's Wall idea is the fact that the Crusaders of the mid-3050s would have never allow it. I thought Tukayyid, or just after, was the point of divergence for this alt, but now you're having to retcon things earlier to change which Khans are in power to make it a feasible solution. Other threads are talking about total wars, changes to Fourth Succession War and War of 3039, etc and now that seems to be part of this Hadrians Wall what-if as well. If you're moving your point of divergence to the early 3000s (or earlier?), then maybe Tukayyid never even takes place, so its a moot argument. It's unclear what part of canon is used in your alt, and what parts aren't. You've got the same Clans, but they aren't of the same mindset; mostly the same IS except the CC is gone and nobody seems to wonder what problems that brings the FC; a Clan invasion that somehow stalls but there's still a Tukayyid battle, but instead of against ComGuard its against a renewed SLDF. It seems like you're cherry-picking the canon ideas that work, but discarding the stuff that doesn't. Frankly, I'm confused what is and isn't part of the story, so "robust" is definitely not the word I'd use.
>>> "The basic line of canon is they can do with their creation as wanted."
Right. Militarily speaking, a lot of what Requiem proposes is more realistic that what happened in canon. But that doesn't always make for good stories. Let's use a different universe as an example: Star Trek. The Borg unquestionably could have destroyed the Federation, but instead of sending thousands of cubes, they seem to always send one at a time. It makes little sense from a military standpoint, but what are the writers supposed to do? Give up after 4 or 5 seasons of Next Generation and/or the first movie? I don't mind anyone pointing out the flaws in canon and suggesting it should have happened another way, but don't tell us it was absolutely wrong and writing a more military sound alternate universe always makes for a better story.
I'll be honest, I don't want the IS weaponry to ever come on par with the Clans from a gaming aspect. The fact it is inferior introduces additional difficulty to the game when playing those scenarios. Does it make historical or military sense? No, probably not. But it's better for the game that it doesn't. If you want equality, you can play Clan vs Clan.
>>> "Being regent, and Victor being a distance from the FC is what gave Katherine the power to take over. It wasn't a popular uprising that did it. It was her having a powerbase and being politically sneaky."
On one hand, I thought it was lame for writers to not have Victor take over after Hanse's heart attack, and lamer when he didn't after his mother's assassination. Let's be clear that there's 750 years of House Lords and for the last 280-ish they've been jockeying for title of sole leader. Victor was raised on this concept, was raised to know he would take over the greatest single empire in history, and he just turns it down? Not once but twice? Its what his father wanted him to do and he's supposedly too busy endearing himself to new ComStar followers. It's what his mother wanted him to do and he's more focused on setting up a defense against the Clan offensive that shouldn't arrive for at least another 12 years. It's what his people wanted, and he basically told them to take it up with Katherine and Peter. The First Princes are expected to be soldiers, but Victor was taking it way too seriously and was basically pissing off his people by not putting down the sword to lead from New Avalon or Tharkad as First Princes and Archons were expected to do. Even his father, who wanted nothing more than to be a MechWarrior, gave it up after Ian died. Surely he instructed his son to understand where his true responsibilities lay. It smelled suspiciously like a setup for a post-Clan Civil War, and that's exactly what happened. (And in my opinion, they made a mess of wrapping up the Clan story too quickly and too haphazardly just so they could move on to this new story arc.)
Of course, turning down the throne(s) completely explains why the FedCom populace did not like Victor at all and why so many supported Katherine's moves to consolidate power. Victor basically turned his back on his nation. He practically gave Katherine the powerbase in the Suns half through his actions, and she didn't have to be sneaky about it at all. Only displacing Peter in the Lyran half introduced sneakiness, and even that's questionable. If Victor wasn't willing to take the throne(s) - and he showed no willingness to do so - then it fell to Katherine as the next oldest. Questionable if she could have taken the title officially though, without being a member of the FedCom military per requirements of the Archron-Prince as inherited from the First Prince requirements. But officially or not, I think it was obvious by 3058-ish or so that someone had to lead the FedCom and if Victor wasn't going to do it then the public would support Katherine in his stead.
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ghostrider
07/04/19 12:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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However for all this new (Victor’s) ream purportedly aims to protect the Inner Sphere from a second invasion the clans can still flank this and attack either the Lyran half of the FC or the DC
Logically, Katherine will have to attack and take or destroy this realm. It gives Victor a base to strike back at her. This is something she would think, no matter what he says.
Also, the power it would provide the LC/LA/FC would give her the ability to take the First Lord position and keep it, by force if necessary. That is the mind of Katherine, even as you describe her.
And the clan expulsion wouldn't be a hole, but it wouldn't be something to concern the IS with as more then an organized pirate set up. Unless you radically change the clans, in which case all of the arguments change as well.
Katherine did use media manipulation to encourage the resentment against Victor and the rest of the family. This is why I say sneaky. I am not saying some or even most weren't upset with him, as he rushed off to play the great general, but the rest of the family didn't.
This thread is supposed to be a continuation of the CC being destroyed, and the 3039 war not being fought between the FC and DC. Basically, the only alts that aren't part of this story line was the idea of using the Rim Worlds people to form the clans, as Kerensky was killed, and his second stayed in the IS. Which in that case destroys any chance of keeping anything canon except the houses and states names. And even that isn't necessarily true.
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Requiem
07/04/19 02:48 AM
1.158.130.13
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Story Arc. (Simplified Version)
Two propositions –
Proposition number one
The “Clans” are former Amaris forces / supporters fleeing from the IS now returning due a “health crisis” upon their Home Worlds.
Their intention is not to conquer the IS it is to establish a new realm for themselves within the IS.
To this Universe I have assumed the Rim Worlds still remains as well as the Terran Hegemony are still in existence – Kerensky did not leave in his exodus he was assassinated by one of his own officers.
Succession Wars erupt – however in no way as devastating as the Canon
Technology remains and increases throughout the IS
Looking at changing the entire history.
Second Proposition – most detail to date
Keep the canon IS History as is up to a point
FWL
Kill off Thomas Marik – replaced with next in Succession – Start a civil War etc.
Have Andurien / Canopus league established
LA / FS alliance will be established
4th Succession war will proceed as per Canon, however
MAC – will not get off Sarna Alive.
St Ives will be larger than Canon incorporating another 6 / 9 worlds
And. /Canop. Will take Betelgeuse
3039/3040 – The remaining half of the CC will fall to the FC, FWL, And./Caop. And St. Ives
3040 – IS begins re-building Warships – Dropships equipped with Naval Weapons – Dropships begin to be converted into heavy bombers etc.
Sometime during 3040 o 3050 the FWL and the FC enter into a pact – hidden clause Victor to marry FWL female I order to establish more permanent alliance.
Nt: From the end of 4SW onwards the DC has been undergoing a re-militarization project by 3050 they will have an additional Regiments (suggest 11 new Regiments)
Introduce “Black Box” technology throughout the FC.
Introduce Steiner Solaris Stadium technology to certain FC cities.
Still considering re-writing the Clans or Keeping them as is – too many similarities between them and the Nazis.
Turtle Bay – response introduce re-write the Ayres Convention as per my writings etc..
Also introduce – SOE / PsyOps etc – commando strikes in the rear / kidnapping of techs / assassination of warriors using sniper rifles etc; Anti-Elemental Infantry Rifles; My Fenris forces within the Deep periphery; introduce partisan forces; Make sure Camelot Command becomes a FC forward ant-clan base etc.
Introduce more naval battles between the Clans and the
Keep the one year of peace – Kamikaze strike – Dragoon Confession – Re-introduce the Star League and the SLDF made up of all the houses etc.
Establish the Immortal Mech League
At this stage I am going to have many Kesselring lines (refer WW2 Italy) established in front of the Clans Advance as well as changing all IS tactics to that of the Attrition Warfare( similar to Wolcott). Also start total war production within all military industrial plants throughout the IS.
Introduce 1st Gen IS Omni mechs etc.
With the resumption of the War the Clans Advance will be very slow as their blitzkrieg has now become siege warfare.
Hanse / Takashi Die of natural causes – Victor / Theodore take over.
Victor decided to make his Mother and Sister (Katherine) joint regents for the FC whilst he is engaged on the front lines.
As the war progresses that Clans are going to experience problems …
- Due to re-supply issues
- consumables are be rationed – increase the number of energy weapons throughout the Clans.
- Replacement personnel issues – many units are being combined to overcome a lack of replacement warrior personnel.
- Elemental numbers will be reaching critical numbers.
Il-Khan will need to activate support Clan’s to assist with the invasion – at this stage he will give them two new invasion corridors on their own and away from the main invasion corridor in an attempt to draw away forces from the invasion corridor – one in the Lyran FC the other in the DC.
SLDF scrambles to contain these new forces.
<Many years of Warfare> - During which Tsun Tzu will attempt a coup on St. Ives – Kali ensures that all remaining claimants to throne are either dead, on the run or disgraced – Kali takes the throne of St. Ives after executing her brother herself (publically televised event following his trial).
2nd / 3rd Gen IS Omni begin to be introduced
Have the Cats / Bears defect to the Star League with their entire populations via Leviathan Carriers
From here on slowly introduce IS made Clan Spec. Weapons etc
Begin to push back the Clans out of the IS and into the Deep Periphery.
Continue the wars into the Deep Periphery
Have Katherine Steiner –Davion place her mother in seclusion due to “Fatigue” – Have her take the throne from Victor.
Victor conducts a quick snatch and grab to take his mother to safety.
FWL calls off the engagement between Victor and ?
Cessation of hostilities with the Invading Clans is established
Kali (st. Ivs) and And. / Canous enter into a pact to conquer Taurian Concordat. –(they enter into a mutual trade alliance at the same time)
Katherine threatens Victor through their remaining brothers and sister – Victor assumes his post as the “FC Periphery Warden”
Exodus of individuals / Companies into the Deep Periphery – wild wild west scenario with Victor’s forces being the Cavalry / Marshals.
Have Omika run to her one true love Victor – DC goes nuts – Katherine stops them via the Star League rules (and in so doing becomes First Lord).
Black dragon Society rise up against Theodore – minor civil war within the DC
Units with the DC attempt to take back the FRR from the Bears – war breaks out between the Bears and the DC.
At this point I would like it if Katherine became First Lord in perpetuity – I have not yet been able to think of a reason as to why?
I would like to have a brief era of peace here whilst Victor establishes his new realm etc
(at this stage I believe the IS will have technological parity with the Clans)
In the near future – war of succession between the FC and Victors Realm – FRR, Bears and Cats side with him. Whilst this is occurring – Kali will strike out to conquer back world lost during the 3039 war in order to link her realm up with And. / Canopous / Taurian Realm. (taking back Sian)
Thereafter –New Era – Old Katherine still hanging on to power however Victor / Omika’s children are now in the game.
Second Clan Invasion - prior to this when the Clans were kicked out of the IS - Clan civil war erupts between the True Born and the Free Born + Dark Caste – Free born win – eugenics etc outlawed – complete reformation of the former Clan Society into something else (as yet undetermined)
Shortly thereafter I would like to introduce a new Clan Jump-drive Distance two to three times the max. distance of the of the original.
They proceed to expand their realm by recolonizing worlds towards the IS.
Somewhere along the Line the former Clans and the IS SLDF personnel meet – the SLDF personnel panic killing the former clan people – due to a complete misunderstanding the Second Clan Invasion begins.
Other ideas I am considering placing into Alt. the history somewhere:-
Skye attempts to / is successful in becoming an independent state
FWL fragments
DC and the Draconis March Border worlds reignite in war due to an as yet unknown event.
With the release of Comstar’s historical documents the quasi- religious order undergoes a violent internal reformation between those who are religious and those who are not.
I also want a brief conflict between the Taurians and the Periphery Suns-FC somewhere prior to their absorption into the And. / Canopus / St. Ives League.
Plus many others -
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/04/19 03:18 AM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider,
Initially Victor will be under Katherine’s thumb – and this realm is officially part of the FC
She, as a candidate for the First Lord, must play her part – the peacemaker this is why when Omika makes her run to Victor via her brother and the Cats she will act as the peacemaker between Victor / Omika and the DC and Theodore, and in so doing becomes the new First Lord.
(On the side if there is a war it would be between the FC and the DC – and this is not what she wants)
It also doesn’t hurt that she is able to put the DC in their place – so no she doesn’t attack them at this stage – why attack yourself – plus there is the public relations image problem of her mother with Victor and Omika.
Later once the realm is no longer the wild wild west and becomes a more civilized society, when it will seek its freedom from the FC then she will be free to attack.
Please re-read above regarding the Clan Flanking manoeuvre and the problem of logistics that goes with it.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/19 12:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is an issue with the 'rabid' attack on the Saber Cat from Turtle Bay that seems to have been over looked.
The fact Theodore was training the DCMS to stop such suicidal charges, or committing the same thing. It was part of how the DC repelled the FC attack in the canon 3039 war. And it was what helped repulse the Luthien attack as well.
This puts a major hole in the MUST avenge themselves at Turtle Bay.
Now. Does Victor chase the clans into the periphery? I am missing something between him not heading to the clan home worlds, and how he was not in the IS that allows Katherine to take over. Or did the fact he should have been in the IS still being over looked?
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Requiem
07/04/19 06:48 PM
1.158.130.13
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As stated previously - The Problem with this assumption is that Takashi Kurita is still alive at the time of the Turtle Bay incident …. As well as the era needed to compare the DC with in order to understand its cultural norms … especially for the DCMS …
Takashi – Traditional upbringing by his father Hohiro Kurita,
Education – Sun Zhang Mech Warrior Academy and Wisdom of the Dragon
Assigned Unit – Second Sword of Light then Otomo
Assassination of his father – He personally took the head of the Assassin.
Rumour suggested he was involved – those spreading this accusation where subsequently rounded up and executed.
Attempted Assassination upon himself – had the body of the assassin hung from the main gate of the Imperial Palace
Throughout his entire life he strictly adhered to the principles of bushido.
When you consider bushido – you must look at the interpretation used – Considering the DCMS and its traditionalist views I believe you are looking at the re-emergence of the ‘Hagakure’, that emerged in the 1930’s and would become like a kind of bible for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy – it is an obscure collection of 18th Century samurai maxims and anecdotes and starts with the idea “The way of the samurai lies in death” – promoting the idea that a samurai must be prepared to die for his lord. Though in the DCMS era I would say this has also been extended to include the State.
(Nt; The closest person(s) we have within modern memory in which to compare / understand him (them) to the DCMS in the far future is General Tojo (Japan WW2), the Emperor, and the Japanese Military of that time– During WW2 the echoes of seppuku are evident in the suicide charges the Japanese troops made on Various Pacific Islands, as well as in the Kamikaze pilots who drove their aircraft into Allied ships – also consider the tale of traditional samurai vengeance the 47 Ronin).
This also comes down your interpretation of “face” within Japanese society (1930-45 era).
Psychologically, if Theodore would not order the use of the Kamikaze then his father, Takashi Kurita, most certainly could be put in a position by his Generals that he would have to “consider” the order and then show reluctance, but order it anyway.
Have a read here of how the Emperor of Japan was convinced by the military as to the necessity of war. (one source - Wiki re: Hideki Tojo)
Yes it is evident in the Canon writing that during the Clan Invasion he, Takashi Kurita, left the defense of the realm in his son’s hands. However, when that threat came to Luthien he and his Dragon’s Claws did engage the Invaders, showing that he would act if he deemed it necessary.
When many traditional Generals meet with Takashi, and make the suggestion, appearing to show reluctance at first he would have no choice but to discuss the issue with his son Theodore. Theodore is now put a position where would be unable to stop this – If he did then this would not only have shamed himself in front of many of his traditional Generals he would also have shamed his father (loss of face and honor) – resulting in his fathers’ immediate seppuku.
However, this is the problem the game developers do not understand cultural psychology – I only have a very passing familiarity due to international business and the readings I have undertaken over the years re WW2.
When you analyse Takashi’s personality I consider it highly probable he would use his more “older / more traditional” members of the DCMS (and those Generals that are still within the DCMS) or even those that had retired to once more return to the cockpit in the defense of the realm – once started it would be almost impossible for anyone to stop.
Thus, from all I understand I am convinced that this option would have been utilized at this stage.
Although, if there is evidence as to the contrary as to why I would be more than willing to consider it.
Victor the Clans and his sister.
Victor chases the Clans through the Inner Sphere and into the Periphery, from there he chases them even further into the Deep Periphery – where upon the Clans / SLDF cease Hostilities – I was thinking something along the line of Korea – the war “officially” never ended but both sides have established a DMZ area and a tentative peace is holding (for now).
He does not proceed to the Clan Home Worlds at this stage. The IS does not have the ability to ensure the logistical support to prosecute a war that far removed from the IS.
Whilst otherwise engaged in the Deep Periphery – Katherine Seizes power – although it will look like a popular uprising by the people requesting her to take the throne for the good of the FC (Historical precedent: Katrina Steiner and Alessandro Steiner). For the protection of her people she will agree to the request after first putting it aside –and the howls for her ascendancy increase)
Thus when Victor returns from the Deep Periphery he will find he no longer has a throne – but she will still have a use for her brother – As an exiled prop (with an appropriate grandiose title) within the Deep Periphery – ensuring the safety of the IS against the Clans.
Victor has been out maneuvered politically – so unless he wants to start a civil war, rip the FC and the Star League apart he will have to comply.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/19 08:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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The DC warriors were not the old school samuri. They followed alot of the ways, but not all, nor where they that fanatical about it. If they were, ANY loss would lead to mass suicide among the troops. As stated with the FRR, that would not have been allow if they were fanatical. Some rebelled and tried to reclaim the lands. Where is the undying loyalty to the realms lord at that point?
And what you are saying about the generals talking to the lord of the realm, if the lord says no, then that is it. Unless you already have a conspiracy going on to remove the lord, you are not going to even argue with them, as the others may show their loyalty by removing them.
The coordinator(emperor) says what happens and that is it. You follow orders or kill yourself.
So you are using the canon garbage but just in a different way. So logic holes that were there and needed to be closed remain. Hence the need to get away from canon entirely.
Victor would be getting reports on what is going on a lot sooner and head back before it got to that point. But logic stops the alt, so therefor it can't exist as such.
This is why claiming canon is the devils work, doesn't fly. You are using the same storyline, only changing the faces of who is doing what.
so unless he wants to start a civil war, rip the FC and the Star League apart he will have to comply. This did not happen in canon, and there is no reason to believe it would happen outside of it. If nothing, the other leaders would help Victor remove Katherine. Most already know what she will do for power, and with her removing Victor, means she is helping the clans. Otherwise, the others would have to hit her to prevent her from expanding her power into the periphery. She would be worse then the clans at this point.
Although there is one major point that is here and not in the canon. According to your breakdown, Melissa is still alive. She would be able to more then counter Katherine with this. This alone negates trying this route.
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Requiem
07/04/19 11:17 PM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: The DC warriors were not the old school samurai.
Hagakure bushido is not old school – yes it was written in the 18th Century but was adapted to that of 1930’s military views as at that time.
When you compare the norms (especially in regards to the military) of a Japan for the 1930-45 period to the DC of pre Theodore Kurita reforms they are very closely aligned sociologically.
That is they mesh very well – so I cannot see how the DCMS would not install the Hagakure bushido school of thought, especially when it comes to the very traditional military academies / schools throughout the DC.
I would also expect all of the soldiers within each of the Sword of Light Divisions to be indoctrinated with this school of thought.
Other units and areas within the DC may have their own variations regarding bushido – however I would not expect many within the DCMS command to have an opposing view.
QUOTE: if the lord says no, then that is it …. You follow orders or kill yourself.
Sorry but again this is viewing the Japanese culture from a very western perspective – as stated above – Read about the Second Sino-Japanese War – “aggression was recommended to Hirohito”. I also consider reading about the resignation of Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe – “…In short, the Emperor had absorbed the view of the army and navy high commands”.
QUOTE: So you are using the canon garbage but just in a different way.
Is that sarcasm? …
Popular uprisings can occur very quickly and when timed when Victor is otherwise distracted with a protracted campaign / and she has ensured that critical information does not reach Victor in a timely manner she can get away with it.
Why would the other realms help Victor – unless there is something in it for them I highly doubt they would do anything – review current world views between different countries, how many actually assist one another with regards to internal politics? … that is unless it can be used to embarrass / gain favorable trade status etc.
In my Alt. Universe where have I written that she has entered into any arrangement with the Clans? …. She is not the Katherine of old and this is not the Canon Story Arc!
Expansion into the Deep Periphery
FC, DC, FRR and Bears, Cats – all are expanding into the Deep Periphery at the same time – no no war at this time.
All sides are unsure of each other including Katherine – her background is politics and the art of the deal – most on the Star League Council would prefer her to that of her brother being on the Council as they wold believe she is more likely to change her mind / be acceptable to changing winds / acceptable to changing trade terms and negotiations – than that of her brother.
It will take many years for them to come to realize how truly dangerous she is.
As for her mother being alive – Melissa can thwart some of her plans yes this is true – however holding the office gives her tremendous power alone and if she is careful when exercising said power it can become all but near impossible for Melissa to interfering without appearing to be seen as interfering with the state – There have been many instances throughout history where this occurs – parent Vs sibling over control for the state and I believe would make for a unique story arc thus its inclusion could be considered very interesting.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/19 01:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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The fact a lot of the people thought Victor killed his mother, is one of the big reasons they started backing Katherine. And with her encouraging that way of thought, even more started backing her, as it made Victor look like an uncaring warmonger. So this is part of why Melissa being alive will cause a lot of big logic holes in this.
Most of the FC loves Melissa and would follow her any day of the week over Katherine. So unless that was changed, I just don't see Katherine becoming Archon, nor First Lord.
Now I would like to know how Katherine would interfer with information getting to Victor, unless the Comguard aspect is completely removed. And even with that, there would be command chains in place to have orders being sent. This isn't the 6-8 month journey to the clans home world. Morgan Kell would see to it that he kept in touch, if no one else.
Now a side note for thought.
With the extra resources the IS has due to the 3039 war not being done, would the states have been exploring the periphery for new resources? Comstar was already doing it. The whole argument of the big corporations pushing the houses would very well be in effect before the clans arrived with such resources being available.
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Requiem
07/05/19 02:54 AM
1.158.130.13
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Canon – People believed in the rumor that Victor killed his mother.
My Alt. – It is a question of Integrity – A question of an absentee ruler who would rather be on the front lines – warmonger.
Canon – Melissa’s reputation.
My Alt. – Pharmaceuticals / Video manipulation / Conspiracy to destroy reputation through the mass media etc.
No logic holes!
Information manipulation via “Black Box” relay – bribery / Loki agent loyal of Katherine / Sabotage / exchange of message real for fake etc. – even Morgan cannot ensure message compliance if you are able to put a spy in the right spot at the right time.
I do not believe there would be mass exploration of resources within the periphery circa 3039 – you might have one or two large corporations as well as an equally small number or “pirate” operators attempting a get-rich-quick job for very rare metals etc.
Yes, corporations do have massive lobby power commensurate with their wealth – however Houses have large contracts / Tax inducements of their own. In addition if you corporation looks like it is going to be taken away by a foreign military power – no insurance, no compensation – who would you be going to ask for a favor from?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/19 05:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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As shown in the novels, the black box could reach from DC border to New Avalon. That is more then how deep Victor would be. It would not be instantaneous, but would get there.
Plus if the SLDF was involved or Comstar, they would be keeping Victor informed. Even ships making supply runs would have information.
And didn't Morgan Kell run with Katrina during the Red Corsair days before she took over? Katrina's husband was Heimdall. So that should open up issues.
And like all media manipulations, a lot of people would not believe it. After Melissa is out of 'rehab' she could very well change what damage the media did. Not all of it, but enough to stop Katherine from gaining more power like that.
And let's not forget people like the Brewer family knows Melissa. I don't think even tax breaks and such would move him from supporting Melissa.
First off, exploring the periphery doesn't mean towards the clans exclusively. And it doesn't mean just the FC or DC. But even with that, someone like Defiance could very well be looking for ores to make mechs with. The FC/LC commands would make sure if they did, the planet would have mech forces on it. Now that is just one of the biggest.
There are also corporations that operate in a few states. Ownership doesn't seem to be an issue, but management changes. I have yet to hear of any successor lords owning ANY of the factories making war materials. Now unless that has changed, most states would not remove the owners as much as changing management to meet their desires.
Now. Offering to sell to the one most likely to take any factory is a good way to avoid seizure. In fact, it might be a good idea to do so, as they may supply some protection.
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Requiem
07/06/19 04:56 AM
1.158.130.13
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A Coup de tar is a “sudden” overthrow of a government and seizure of political power. It could be years I the making and one hour in the completion if executed correctly.
However with a popular uprising it could be all over in a couple of days if it too is choreographed correctly.
Remember even with a command circuit how long will it take for him to reach the Capitol of of the FC – The Planet formerly known as New Earth and given the new name of Anschluss (Connection) following the end of the 4th Succession War as a symbol of connecting the two realms into one (and to tell every house post 4th Succession War that Hanse is going to be the next First Lord in bright neon letters) – Or Tharkad for that Matter.
So by the time he even attempts to reach this world from the Deep Periphery it will be all over.
Heimdall – is the loyal opposition – it was set up to ensure Loki did not go overboard with curtailing the freedom of the people it was not set up as an anti-Coup force. It was also set up as individual cells – so who is to say if some cells didn’t support her?
Yes this is quite true many people would not believe the media, however many still support their candidate despite the opposition – without getting political can I just say the current approval / disapproval rates of many heads of state – Paris, Germany, England, America, Australia, Turkey etc. as an example.
Unfortunately I believe the Brewer Family would support her – she is viewed more Steiner than Davion – Robinson, that would be a different matter I doubt the Draconis March would support her – but once she has the power there is very little they can do, that is unless you believe they will initiate a bid for independence from the FC.
Yes, I agree exploring does not mean directly towards the Clans. And it doesn’t mean just the FC and the DC – my above note suggested FC, DC, FRR, Bears, Cats, Large Corporations, Individuals (and I should have also included Religious Communities).
I am saying that one the military has established transport routes it will be easier for any company / individual pioneer train moving into the wild wild west to be far easier than striking off on your own into unknown territory. In addition military surveyors / geologists etc would have created detailed reports as to every planet they have been to. And if they are leaked to certain companies / individuals in advance this will just fan the flames for a new exodus (homesteading) within the deep periphery.
Ownership
Defiance Industries passed to the Lyran Commonwealth who ASSIGNED control to the Brewer Family. Ownership – Steiner – CEO – Brewer
May I suggest business takeover strategies and the protection theories that go with it – However, once a world is taken everything of any worth will be transferred to the new state – the state will then assign a new management and security unit. The old owners will have no legal rights for compensation or the right to challenge the change in ownership - it is just a fait accompli.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/19 05:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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Once Melissa was 'sick', Victor would have returned home to find out why. Melissa was in charge of the FC entirely when Hanse died. This is why Katherine had to kill her in canon. I don't really see a way around it in the alt. Conflicts of logic abound here. So he would have been on the way at least when Katherine started her moves.
I doubt Victor would have been leading from the front after hearing about his mother.
In canon, he felt like those he left in charge could do it. Katherine was undermining them which is known.
With Melissa being alive, I doubt Victor would have become the 'great' general to chase the clans back, and took up actually running the governments.
I think with both parents gone, he threw himself into military thinking to avoid feeling their loss.
With the alt, this does lead to the question of if Hanse actually would have the heart attack. The realm would have been much better off, with the clans being more like the 4th war then an invasion that they were losing. Probably would still have it, but the catalyst wouldn't be the same.
Unfortunately I believe the Brewer Family would support her – she is viewed more Steiner than Davion.
I would assume you are talking Katherine with this one, but the point that Melissa would have made a media statement that she was taken hostage by Katherine. I would think the Brewers would follow Melissa, but the whole thing with Defiance and such wasn't about politics so much as what would happen if the IS splintered.
However, once a world is taken everything of any worth will be transferred to the new state.
This is not true with military factories. There were a few that changed hands in the 4th and 3039 that are still on the worlds they were originally. Hell, the panther factory in the FRR would have been moved inside the more stable regions, instead of being left in the middle of the rebellious Rasslehague, when the DC first conquered them.
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Requiem
07/07/19 04:52 AM
1.158.130.13
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I disagree, Victor would not return home, even if his mother was ill – first, he would view his duty is to that of the soldiers and the prosecution of the war – second, it is not very easy for the deputy commander who is in the field to pack up and leave at a moment’s notice. Succession theory would suggest it should be – however in this case I cannot see him relinquishing is post.
It also comes down to if in the Alt – his personality is changed from that of the canon.
(Katherine’s agents – heartless son who would rather be a warmonger that be at his mother’s side whilst she is ill – those who ever served however would know better)
Yes, you may have point Ghostrider, in that with the death of both of his parents this may have been the catalyst for producing the great general within the canon. As this is just an Alt however I am just going to assume he naturally evolved over time to become the great general.
Yes I am going to give Hanse the heart attack as per cannon - there needs to be a change in the rulers from Hanse to Victor sometime during the Clan Invasion – though I could give it a couple of more years if I want.
The Brewers
Yes I did mean Katherine – if they too have a younger lord rather than that who ruled at the same time of Melissa - yes I can see hem supporting her, especially if she had a hand in the “retirement” of the old lord if you get my drift. If you have the older Lord still in power I cannot see him/her shifting their support from Melissa to Katherine.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/19 12:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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it is not very easy for the deputy commander who is in the field to pack up and leave at a moment’s notice.
You do know that retreats do this all the time?
Unless knee deep in enemy bodies, it wouldn't take that long. Even a day wouldn't be too much considering dropship to jumpship, then jumps to where ever. Charging delays if the command circuit isn't available would be the longest issue there.
Another thought comes up with Melissa still in the picture, Yvonne and Peter would not have been so easily pushed into retiring. They would have been doing a 'better job' with mom around. And once mom 'recovered', they would start fighting back as well. They would have been looking into the stories of Mom being 'sick'.
Now there is ways to get around the General Estates backing Melissa, one of which requires Katherine to do something she may not be able to undo. Give the Estates more power. In the end, she would try to take it back, but for the time being, it would set a dangerous opportunity to supplement Katherine for say Yvonne, or someone else they can control easier then Katherine.
Also Focht is still alive. He would know how to counter Katherines manipulations somewhat. Any sort of assassination attempt on his life, may well cause issues with the whole League. If proven to be from Katherine.
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Requiem
07/07/19 05:05 PM
1.158.130.13
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An organised retreat involves the movement of the entire unit from point A to Point B – establish a new base etc, and as such the Commander remains with the Unit.
When a commander retires from the field this requires him / her handing over all their responsibilities / knowledge to another and leaving the Unit on their own (together with an an aide if one has been assigned) and travelling to the rear via whatever transport is available (usually re-supply ships).
Then there is the perceived loss status for a Unit’s Commander when they retire from the field whilst their unit remains on the filed – as what it usually means is they have failed and are being replaced by a more capable officer and many may see it as such.
Thus if you do not explain what is going on rumour may spread – and not in the good way – throughout the unit thus Victor could end up ‘loosing’ the respect of some of his troops when he retires from the field (and even if he did explain he could still ‘loose’ their respect).
It is not an easy decision to make – stay in an attempt to retain unit cohesion (at the expense of filial duties) – retire from the field and possibly damage unit cohesion whilst fulfilling your filial duties.
So what it comes down to is what is most important at the time of the decision.
Yvonne, Peter and Arthur
In the canon story I find the characters of Yvonne, Peter and Arthur to be quite contrived, bland and very one dimensional – the question must be asked if this was done on purpose so that they didn’t want them upstaging the main characters of Katherine and Victor?
In the real world however (and especially in my Alt.) these three characters need to evolve way beyond that of the canon – thus they will no longer be the wallflowers they are portrayed as in the canon.
Both Peter and Arthur need to become warriors and over time they could even rival that of Victor in their ability – together with their own Units and friends.
Arthur – One of the Robinson Rangers – Strong ties with the Draconis March / Sandoval family etc.
Peter – I am going to have him establish a new unit – and just to keep things interesting his main ally will be Kali Liao (introduced to him by Justin Xiang Allard).
As for Yvonne her character, she needs to be completely revamped – in my Alt – over time she will become a consummate Warrior / Politician – the equal of both Victor and Katherine in both their respective fields – one day both Katherine and Victor will wake up and find that she is no longer their naïve young sister but a capable woman who could give them both a run for their money.
With “Mother” now with Victor in the Deep Periphery with his soon to be Bride Omika Kurita you can see this will cause friction within the family – Katherine gains an ally in Arthur and through him access to manipulate the Draconis March in her favour? As for both Peter and Yvonne – wild cards.
The Estates General has always been a place of politicking, factionalism and the exercise of power and favours – I am going to provide Katherine with the ability to take control of this most “esteemed” body over that of her mother – like many stories the fops will not know what is really happening until it is far too late and by then if they step out of line – well we all know what happens to those who displease Katherine, don’t we?
Focht is a member of ComStar and also he is the Commanding General of the SLDF – as long as he gets his re-supplies / people etc and Katherine does not meddle in the war he will not cause issues with her. He has given up his old life and embraced the new. Yes he may have noticed what was going on but he may have decided not to do anything also.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/19 07:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Focht is a member of ComStar and also he is the Commanding General of the SLDF
When a commander retires from the field this requires him / her handing over all their responsibilities / knowledge to another and leaving the Unit on their own (together with an an aide if one has been assigned) and travelling to the rear via whatever transport is available (usually re-supply ships).
Doesn't this cover the units in the periphery? Focht should have been in charge while giving unit commanders their orders. Victor would have just been one of those in the chain of command, not the over all leader.
A change in leadership isn't that difficult. If it was, they would never swap them out in the field. And it happens alot more then you might think.
More then a few times commanders were recalled to answer for something that happened. So why would it be an issue that Victor take off to check his mother. The troops under him would be concerned about here to, especially the LC troops from the FC.
Them knowing, and having him stay would create more problems with moral.
One more thing about Focht. He knew Katherine was a bad apple.
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Requiem
07/07/19 10:09 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider,
I am just retiring the individual General and her/his aide to the rear – I need the Unit to remain where it is – as it may be engaged with the enemy.
Rotating out a unit for an incoming unit might prove problematic – especially if the enemy decided to launch a full scale assault at the time – both friendly forces could be caught left footed as it were and without it usual Commanding Officer – Thus the units morale / confidence in the new CO might be low for a time!
One of the issues of war is that when you are the Commanding officer you cannot micro manage everything – you need to delegate tasks and responsibility – Yes Focht may be able to have an overreaching command but on the ground this is an entirely different situation. At a point you have to trust those on the ground to get the job done.
As for Victor – he has a dual role –
- as Second in overall Command he would be attached to HQ;
- If the Area of Attack is too large (multiple systems and planets) areas will be needed to created, in which each area has its own chain of Command leading back to HQ – e.g. think about the D-Day Landings. Victor may very well be in charge of an area attack involving many units upon many planets within many different systems at the same time – pulling him out therefore will cause problems for everyone under his command.
- However, as CO of the Tenth he needs to be on the battlefield wen required – as a CO of one of the truly elite units his unit needs to be a ready reaction unit that can respond to any crisis if an when it develops.
Yes I agree it does happen often, however, whenever you do swap one out there will always be a slight period where the units under this command are slightly concerned about their new CO.
Relieving someone of Victor’s stature of his command, even for a short time, will be noticed by everyone within the army and they will speculate as to what is going on – anxiety increases etc. – performance drops off etc.
In this situation you would withhold any information about his Mother’s heath to the troops – you need to keep their minds on the enemy and not daydreaming about something that is beyond their control.
Yes, Focht may have known she (Katherine) was not what you would call a stand up person – but at the time he also did nothing because Melissa was with her – hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the time there is little he could say / do as she is Victors sister, and she is next in line for the throne and being bad is one of the job requirements when you are in line to becoming the head of the state. You have to be willing to send people off to their death – you have spies who lie and cheat for you etc – you have to be able to give someone an order to assassinate individuals etc when necessary. So being bad can be considered a virtue when you are next in line for the throne – you won’t be squeamish when it comes time to kill off people.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/19 03:25 AM
66.74.60.165
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Might not be able to hide the info. Normal coms on civilian stations would report that Melissa has been out of sight. Might not say why, but this should give them a clue.
Also, I don't know it a full black out while the troops are in the field would be in effect, so personal messages to the soldiers could well tell them Melissa was out of sight.
With the alt changing the amount of troops, would Victor have been assigned to the 10th guards?
Or maybe one of the house regiments, like the Davion Heavy guards or some other unit with a great rep?
Might be Melissa would assign him to the throne mech duty, to avoid him dying so soon after Hanse.
This is suggesting other commanders are not that great.
Which gave me the idea for a suggestion on Yvonne.
The idea is that a failed attempt on her life made her realize, she had to get her act together. If she wanted to beat Katherine, she would have to learn it all.
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Requiem
07/08/19 05:57 AM
1.158.130.13
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In the IS they will know that Melissa is having “issues”. However in the Deep Periphery I doubt they will have wifi whilst on active duty.
Whilst on active duty I am absolutely positive that most forms of communication / information as what is occurring in the inner sphere will become restricted to approved information – though with re-supply / receipt of mail these will always include non-approved information.
Victor will be assigned to the 10th if and when it is deemed hat his command is required for a specific mission. If another unit is required I would just include then in the TO&E and place them under his command.
Like all mothers I believe she would want to keep Victor safe – but that is a little hypocritical when many other mothers send their children in harm’s way – Victor and the royal family must lead the way through example, this includes being on the front line.
This is not suggesting other commanders are not great it’s a question of optics – if Victor wasn’t that great they would have given him a minder to watch over him and keep him safe.
Yes I like the idea you have for Yvonne – this could quite conceivable be put into the story. Thanks
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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vanlisur
03/15/22 03:23 AM
27.58.169.35
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if you have the large aero wings taking out and holding jump points and supply depots, how would the clans even get anything of size there? The SLDF would have anything within jumping radius mined/guarded, so at least they could get off a warning to the main HQ.
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ghostrider
03/15/22 11:06 AM
45.51.181.83
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You can still use pirate points to jump into systems. They are not stable, so one hour one might be just outside the orbit of the moon towards deep space, while the next, it may well be near Jupiter in the Sol system. Three days from now, there may be one near Mars. It is very resource intensive to try and block access to a whole system.
Also, if you have the resources, a jump bomb set up can be made. During the WOB Jihad, they used throw away jump drives to get forces across longer distances that a 'safe' jump drive could reach. A suicide ship ladened with explosives could be used to remove stations and such. The question is if the clans would used such a device. They would likely have troops bid to be part of it,, so it wouldn't be a 'dirty' attack.
The big issue is if the clans would see what is being done and actually change their war strategies to counter it. The large wing concept would need to be started before the clans showed up, which is why most suggest it is countering the future without knowing it was coming.
And it would take the clans 15 years minimum to even begin to increase their aero forces, as they would use the iron womb with DNA from their proven pilots. Training would also likely have to be changed some, as they could not sit back and try for the 1-3 out of 100 to graduate, as the sibko system seems to do.
Increasing the items produced doesn't seem to be a problem, as the clans hatred of waste seems to be what limits the amount of machines they build.
One way the clans could counter the large wing tactic is to destroy the IS jump ship production, as they aren't tied to the clans own production. No jumpships made, means all forces are locked into the system they are currently in. It will take time to destroy the ones that are already made, but it will start limiting the IS to figure out where they need to protect. Also, no jump ship manufacturing means no warship manufacturing.
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