Requiem
06/23/19 08:42 AM
1.158.130.13
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During the Star League era vast navies were maintained by all Houses as well as the SLDF.
The Lyrans Port Sydney Naval Shipyards upon Alarion (for example) never came under attack during the Succession Wars – and yet we are expected to believe they somehow lost the ability to manufacture Warships as well as manufacturing Jump-ships in the vast numbers they were completing during the Star League Era.
Thus can we assume the number of docks that were made during the Star League era to service vast fleets has not reduced in size by the time of the Clans?
That said with the reintroduction of technology may I ask how Port Sydney Naval Shipyard, as well as many others throughout the IS, are not manufacturing vast number of ships from then on.
The Docking areas are there to manufacture large fleets.
The education / employment system required to train vast numbers of people to build ships is a purely academic matter and easily remedied.
The idea that there is only a permanent small number of factories that can manufacture the parts for a warship, and as such restricts the number of ships being produced at any one time, is in my opinion a quite ludicrous proposition. Economies of scale – would not the Lyran Government ensure all plants are duplicated (and at the same time) many times over to ensure that fleets can be manufactured within a short period of time.
And if the fleet is made up of only a small number of designs – one carrier, one battleship, one cruiser / fast attach frigate, one stealth submarine and one support – again you maintain economies of scale.
How many years of uninterrupted work would it take to go from the little to no output – that of 3025 – to return it to the level of output being produced at the same time as that of during the Star League era when vast navies are being produced and maintained?
What I am saying is that it seems very strange that even a decade after the first warships are being produced in the IS that they are still only being manufacturing in very small numbers.
Being the largest gun on the battlefield you would believe these fortresses would have been given priority in their manufacture above all else.
How long did it take the Star League to create vast Navies in comparison to what the IS forces are producing during the Clan era? It just seems strange that the time taken to produce a warship never reduces – I would have thought the figure they produce would be increasing over the years as well as the time taken to produce a warship would reduce to a quantifiable minimum time (as the number of employees, support factories and dockyards increase over time) to produce an individual warship of a specific class.
Or am I being a little “glass half empty” in my thought process that it was decided early on that the number of warships held by everyone must be kept to a minimum so that the ‘Mech integrity of the game is never superseded?
Where are the vast number of industries held that are required to keep an empire of hundreds of worlds and who knows how many people serviced with all their day to day needs as well as all the luxury goods that many would crave?
I guess what I am asking overall is - does / should the IS ever regain all the technology of the Star League and as such with these industries and a decade (or two) of relative peace should they become similar to that of industry Level / militarily Level - the same as they once were when the original Star League was still in force? Or would it take a century of peace to once more return to the level of technology they maintained prior to the fall of the Star League?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
06/23/19 01:32 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
The Lyrans Port Sydney Naval Shipyards upon Alarion (for example) never came under attack during the Succession Wars – and yet we are expected to believe they somehow lost the ability to manufacture Warships as well as manufacturing Jump-ships in the vast numbers they were completing during the Star League Era.
Because if a shipyard managed to avoid a nuke, their suppliers still got nuked. Shipyards don't turn raw ingots of metal into finished JumpShips, they're assembly points for components from across the Inner Sphere.
During the Star League, the Terran Hegemony had a particular habit of concentrating critical suppliers in its borders so the Inner Sphere would be screwed if they ever rebelled against the Star League. Ground Zero for the Succession Wars' nuke happiness was the Terran Hegemony. So, WarShip and JumpShip production faltered across the Inner Sphere by the 2840s.
Quote:
Thus can we assume the number of docks that were made during the Star League era to service vast fleets has not reduced in size by the time of the Clans?
No, most shipyards and repair docks were prime targets during the early Succession Wars. The survival of one or two doesn't mean the rest escaped intact.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/23/19 07:24 PM
1.158.130.13
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Really?
First, given the economic and military size of the Lyran state at the time of the Star League, no empire under any circumstances allows their military industrial complex to be beholden to that of another state for the key components of its military.
Would they not react like any of the Senates we have today – to win the contract the technology and the intellectual rights must be transferred to that of “Lyran State” and be built here in the “Lyran State” – like what many countries do today.
Sorry, but I cannot believe the Lyran government would allow key military parts – especially those that are key to their warship development be controlled by that of the Terran Hegemony.
Are we not back to the stage of transferring this knowledge to the Lyran state – the same as when the BattleMech first appeared on the battlefield.
If a “critical supplier components manufacturer” existed – especially a primary monopoly industry that is a part of your military industrial complex and affects the development of our state naval assets, would you not ensure over time that new subsidiaries are established within your state so that the Terran Hegemony cannot dictate requirements – by strangling your components economy?
What you are saying is that even by the end of the original Star League the Terran Hegemony had the ability to put their foot on the neck of the Lyran military by restricting key component parts. If this is so then why didn’t the Lyran (as well as others) initiate reverse engineering process or just steal the information and set up shop in secret, sorry but I cannot believe any ruler would allow this to occur for any period of time.
Second, where is the evidence as to an attack upon the Port Sydney Shipyards? Where does it say they were successfully able to penetrate the mass naval and aerospace fleets that would have been permanently stationed there – together with mass Space Stations with Naval Lasers and aerospace fighters that would have been em-placed within them – together with the mass number of remote controlled mines that would have been strategically located throughout space to restrict access.
Thy may have been a prime target – however the resources need to get to it, it should have required a mass naval fleet – and a battle of that size should have been noted down somewhere.
That is unless you have a revisionist historical approach to the Battletech Universe.
Sorry but overall I cannot believe in the factualness of these statements.
Lastly, if your key naval military components facilities were within the Terrn Hegemony why didn’t you inform the SLDF that if they did not take all care to preserve them you would kick them out of Lyran Space – the same as House Kurita? Better yet why didn’t you send in your own commando groups to seize and return them to the Lyran State?
Or was it all Amaris’ fault at the first sign of invasion scorch earth policy to his own kingdom – you invade and I will kill my own people – a threat he carried out – holding his own people as hostage?
Sorry, but overall I have a very difficult time coming to grips with these statements – that they somehow represent the totality of the situation.
Given the Amaris situation and what was likely to be the SLDF’s response why didn’t the Lyran State ensure they had all the key knowledge at this point in time – saying they didn’t is just criminal on the part of the Lyran Leadership.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/23/19 09:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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In todays world, there are plenty of items built in one country only and shipped out to others. Alot of Europe buys things only made in the U.S.
Fighters and tanks being the main things.
The houses were not able to threaten the TH like you think. The laws required house forces to be so much less then the TH, and honestly, they could well ask the houses besides the one having issues, that anything they take is theirs to keep. So it is possible the LC, in this example, could well be cut off by the TH, and have the FWL and DC hitting border worlds.
Where I agree that shipyards should have been rebuilt, especially jumpship makers, I can understand some of the reasonings for it.
First off is the parts suppliers.
Hard to be a monolith jump drive installed when the company that makes it is obliterated.
Second. Much like the car 'manufacturers' in the U.S. most of those parts are delivered from elsewhere, not built here.
This, combined with the possibility that the only one that builds said part is in a foreign realm and is banned from being sent comes to mind.
The issue with the so called permanently stationed ship. Do you really think they would keep that fleet there if the enemy was breaking thru elsewhere, such as hitting the capital? We do know in the LC's history, they had to move it to Tharkad. It would be very likely the garrison fleets were dispatched to deal with the enemy in and around Arcturus.
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Requiem
06/23/19 11:30 PM
1.158.130.13
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Quote: In todays world, there are plenty of items built in one country only and shipped out to others. Alot of Europe buys things only made in the U.S. Fighters and tanks being the main things.
This is correct – this is also why we have NATO and ANZUS Treaties, and as to why we have military trade within these treaty member states – However, to correctly put this situation within its most simplest of terms, can you see either Russia, China or America entering into a military trade arrangement with each other? For this is what is being advocated here between the TH and the LC.
Restricting the military size of an empire is one thing – Germany Post WW1 – comes to mind.
And yes if both the FWL and the DC launched a combined assault to restrict Lyran access to the TH this would pose a serious issue if a major part of their main military parts came from the TH.
Thus would not this situation demonstrates the main reason as to why you wold never allow a situation like this in the first place? Or am I wrong?
Is this not what I am advocating here – if the parts manufactures are so vitally important to not only the military and the economic stability of a realm, should not every house have their own suppliers - and as such should they not all be established within the same level of security as that of the BattleMechs plans on Hesperus – under mass concrete slabs and beneath a km of natural rock.
As for the analogy of vehicle manufacturing – how does manufacturing a car come into the same category as that of creating an oil tanker / cargo ship or an aircraft carrier?
Jump-ships and Jump-drives are the bedrock from which ALL power is derived – remove them and every planet is now isolated and alone. Thus it is quite evident as to the extreme importance they play in keeping everything and everyone together. They are even more important than that of individual BattleMech Factories – so why didn’t anyone take the necessary steps to safeguard them – sorry but I cannot rationalize the stupidity of not safeguarding these institutions as well as all the plants necessary to keep their production ongoing and safe.
As for being Banned this is irrelevant – BattleMechs were once banned – but somehow every state got hold of them – it would be the same for Jump-ship Manufacturing every state MUST have the ability to manufacture Jump-Ships without which the security of the realm will always be compromised and open to attack.
Remember every state is a black-sea fearing state – they must have the ability to sail and trade otherwise their realm is compromised militarily and economically.
If you are able to find the book “Girt- the un-authorized autobiography of Australia”, you will see the lengths some countries will go to secure their navy –when the then Prime Minister of GB – Pitt the Younger- was having trouble with his hemp rope dealer – Catherine the Great – because she had cornered the market. They decided to form a new Colony to grow their own rope products – thus we get the Colony in Australia and not before the GB government purchased an island that did not exist! The original idea of getting rid of their Convicts was just a way of obtaining cheap labor in the future, for the growing and manufacture of ship quality rope.
Just remember how many Kms of rope go into just one sailing vessel and you will see the importance they play in the security of the nation at that time.
This is the lengths empires will go to ensure their component Jump-ship / sail-craft components are maintained. To believe otherwise is in my opinion ludicrous.
As for the idea of a permanent fleet – YES – I am convinced that due to the incredibly strategic importance a ship yard plays within a sea going society there will be a permanent fleet attached to every-one. Planets may come and go but as for shipyards they are beyond any planet, even that of the Capitol, they are just that important!!!!!!
If Tharkhad did fall they would just move it to Arcturus, thus securing two important aspects under the one roof as it were.
Though why they didn’t do this from the start is beyond me, other than Tharkad being geographically in the center of the LC.
Docks and slips to manufacture and repair ships are as important within the Battletech era as they were in all the Sea faring ages – even today. They must be safeguarded at all costs for both the military and that of the economic security of the country / empire they serve.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/24/19 01:24 AM
1.158.130.13
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In addition, if you are in favour of having hidden worlds – this is the absolute one where you can say, without equivocation, it must be hidden from the entire universe – any system and the worlds contained therein which is utilized for the production of Jump-ships and/or Warships must become restricted knowledge, and in so doing, the security of the realm is maintained.
Churchill once wrote “truth is so important in times of war that she must be surrounded by handmaidens of lies”
In the Battletech universe “Starship manufacture is so important that she must be be surrounded by assassins of lies”
And just like Germany post WW1 - pre WW2 - this is where all the Houses would violate the size requirements, placed upon them arbitrarily by the Star League's First Lord within the TH, upon their military requirements.
That is until one of the Hoses decides to break from their repressive tyranny. In my opinion the dream that was the Star League was coming to a close - If it was not Amaris then sooner or later it would have been one or all the Houses breaking away. The First Lords had become an idea that no longer had any true relevance.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/24/19 02:44 AM)
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ghostrider
06/24/19 01:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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can you see either Russia, China or America entering into a military trade arrangement with each other?
It is sad, but China tends to provide the electronic components to a lot of U.S. military tech.
I can see the houses wanting to make their own plants to build parts for their warships. I know if possible, I would. And that is one of the many things the TH had to hold the houses back from any sort of attack.
But what about just pure resources. More then a few countries can not produce enough oil to keep their people going. I would think this also falls into the tech issue.
Having a shortage, and being able to fix it is the issue. It is possible the LC didn't have the techs that could build the things like warship engines, no matter how much they wanted it. Much like a lot of countries can't make nukes. Some component is missing.
The importance of jumships is why they were such a priority target in the wars. If the enemy can't get to you, then you can take your time to take them out. And the example of moving the warships to a more threatened target, like a capital world would have happened. Even a minor noble with access to them would have moved them to protect that nobles **** and properties.
But then even keeping them there, do you think the enemy didn't do what they had to, in order to stop production there? Your fleet guarding it, may have been more then enough to stop pirates, and even minor attacks, but what about several fleets from planets in your enemies territory? They pull in say 5 systems worth and hit all at once. You obliterate the defending forces, and honestly, if they are there to protect ship yards, do you keep them there after the enemy destroys the yards, yet defenders still live?
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ghostrider
06/24/19 01:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe the fact the houses were still reliant on the TH for more items then just military is being missed. Just ponder that the houses outside the TH were like the U.S. when it was first founded by England. We needed them for a lot of things, and only started learning to make it before the revolutionary war. What if the non TH realms were like this? Can make defensive weapons, but kept from having things like ships that were war ships? Even advanced weapons? How many jumpships did the TH control and would boycott worlds and the coms network, in an interdiction type set up?
Could the houses cope with that for long? No matter desire, not all can get the skills needed to do it all. And just ordering people to become this or that doesn't work. That is what causes the leaders to fall.
As it is not said, did any of the houses own ship yards? Did the TH own them all, and they only came into house possession when Kerensky left? Well ship yards capable of building warships. I know they could make dropships, or at least long range shuttle craft.
Hemp for rope is easier to get and grow then making special circuits needed for things like jump computers, fire control, even thruster control. There are countries today that can't make turbine engines for a lack of casting the blades correctly. Do you think they aren't trying to do something as simple as that? No turbine for jet engines and no fighters. Well unless you are going to use prop planes. Even missile technology like tracking isn't easy to do. Point and shoot is about the top for some countries. Making a cruise missile is beyond them completely.
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Wick
06/24/19 04:45 PM
45.43.104.179
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Back to Alarion...
Objective Raids (and maybe other books) establishes that Lyrans have been building Invaders, Scouts, and Monoliths at the Ioto Galactic plant for ages. So whatever component became lostech must be warship-specific. I'm willing to accept the lack of warship-scale interplanetary transit drives is what doomed Warship production at Alarion, based on fact that only Rolls-Royce of Terra (with ComStar's consent) could manufacture warship transit drives by the 3050s, with all other producers presumably destroyed in the First Succession War. Even if Port Sydney could construct everything else, without the transit drive its not much more useful than a regular jumpship, but many times more expensive to build and maintain.
If that's not enough, same Objective Raids page (under Bowie Industries heading) makes reference to the orbital platform being used more and more often for dropship repair and maintenance, thanks to other facilities being lost. It may be that the Lyrans chose to focus on maintaining their dropship fleet to move their regiments around rather than warships which, for all their might in the blackwater, can't win you planets like the ground forces can. Quite possible that the orbital station was reconfigured to support more dropship slips (sacrificing unused warship slips to do so) during the First and Second Succession Wars, causing an even more rapid deterioration of Lyran warship assets. (And other Houses may have followed the same plan.)
It is somewhat interesting that the Free Worlds League and Draconis Combine never launched a serious attack against Alarion, but focused mightily on Hesperus II many times. Wiping out Port Sydney would have been a crippling blow to the LCAF. Its difficult to figure out what facilities existed in the Clan occupation zones, but assuming they had no jumpship or dropship facilities lost to the invaders (and I couldn't identify any), then Port Sydney appears to be the Lyran's *ONLY* jumpship plant by the late succession war era, and housed three of their ten dropship lines. Alarion must have been exceptionally well defended for such an interior world to discourage an attack on such a vital facility. Only a massed warship fleet attack by the WOB managed the feat (which still presents the problem of how and where the Lyrans are maintaining their naval assets after 3069.)
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Requiem
06/25/19 01:44 AM
1.158.130.13
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Corporations may find parts from foreign countries, in order to make higher profit margins, but how may Senate Hearings have been held denouncing their unpatriotic and quite frankly dangerous behavior that could end up hurting the military to which they were intended to assist?
Can I say in the future this would not happen again …. No … but can I say, with a degree of certainty, there would be a law against this …. In all probability yes I could say they should be a law to this effect.
Remember laws concerning empires are just pieces of paper until one side decides to consider them irrelevant - Chamberlain “Peace in our time” – Germany / Russia agreement over Poland – and then operation Barbarossa.
If you adopt the idea that Houses have hidden their most valuable Ship yards and Naval fleets it just makes sense that every House would be conducting this illicit expansion to the military – so that when the time is right they can obtain a sovereign government and tell the Star League and the TH to take a hike. If they are such a priority target then why not hide them away?
As the projected size of enemy fleets increases so to will the production numbers within you own home fleet – remember the issue of the nuclear missile gap during the 50s and 60s and the mad rush to close it? Same principle …
As for resources – considering the size of many of the Great Houses (two to three times the size of the TH) can I say that I highly doubt the TH is the only state to hold a precious resource and as such a monopoly on that resource.
As for the analogy of the Nuclear Club – no matter how hard you try to keep it secret it somehow gets out – Russia, GB, China, France and what about both Pakistan, India how did they get it? Some countries just have the expertise and the natural resources available so that they do not need another country to assist in its manufacture.
Let us then consider the idea regarding Warships and transit Drives / Compact Kearny-Fuchida Drive – when you look at the Wiki notes you have about 15 corporations who are able to manufacture them.
In addition to that the first true warship – the Dreadnought-class – was introduced in 2300 – can you say in all that time no one other than that of the TH was able to manufacture them – just like the original BattleMech money, bribery, kidnapping and even outright theft will ensure the information becomes common knowledge sooner or later.
The Canon history also states that with the rediscovery of lost technologies during the Clan invasion Warship production was once more viable – then as a stop game issue regarding the Rolls-Royce factories supplying the engines – however over time and the recovery on more lost technology saw the great powers to field their own warships (Thus they could make their own!)
However it is also written that only one at time can be made due to their extreme cost.
Can I say how ludicrous this statement is! – one at a time due to extreme cost…..Ha! – can I say economies of scale – mass production lines (Henry Ford etc.) – basic economics regarding the mass production even very large engines wold reduce over time as it is just a question of manufacturing a Mega Production facility to mass produce engines that is required – not a system that can only produce one at a time.
Have a look on the internet at some of the mega factories scattered around the world that were created for mass production and the cost corporations and governments paid in order to build them (tax subsidies etc.)
Sorry but this statement is beyond ludicrous – it demonstrates that the game developers desire to maintain a future Uber Clan scenario within the game – 1st we had Uber FC now Clans?
Designing and building a mega factory for the production of mass drives should be achievable – and more so in the time of the Star League!
Remember how advanced technology was utilized throughout the IS during the age of the Star League – its dissemination was utilized to re-engineer worlds so that they could become habitable etc. Sorry but I doubt even the First Lord could have controlled some of the Corporations – especially is they had multiple subsidiaries scattered throughout the IS.
Anyway the hemp rope analogy was an attempt to explain the lengths countries will go to secure the safety of the nation.
And as such is it beyond reason to believe that once they know how to make a warship engine that they also at the same time design a mega factory for the mass production of said engines – in reality I cannot see how any state would not implement the construction of a plant like this at the earliest time so that their Navy fleet can begin to become a reality. National Pride is on the line – so establishing a Fleet ASAP would be forced through no matter what the final cost would be.
Wick, this is where the story falls down – we can say that the LC did have Transit drive technology by the end of the Star League – this should be a given.
The question is thus how did they loose this technology? I have worked for large Corporations and they always have their own educational department to maintain quality / safety control etc – so how did the corporation and the state loos this information over time?
And sorry I do not believe a nuclear blast(s) caused the loss of its technology – where are multiple bunkers where this information is stored within self-contained air-gaped computer systems – or even on paper format (Y2K) as a backup?
Sorry but when you look at the First Succession War and the use of Nuclear ordinance – can I ask this how many businesses were destroyed to that of how many survived – as it is clear to everyone that with Amaris taking over and Kerensky fighting back – with the absence of a First Lord there will be a shooting match for the title and in all probability this will include WMDs – so why did no one take any precautions what so ever to protect the state – can we go back to the hysteria of the Y2K debacle as a guide as to the level of precautions that would have been implemented to safeguard the state?
Unfortunately I believe that many of the hypothesis as to why the states did not have have warships is that of clutching at straws – they are the biggest gun on the battlefield and the most prestigious to National Pride – the belief that all the states somehow lost the ability to manufacture them to me this is just wishful thinking.
Even at a stopgap armed merchantmen – Jolly Rodgers – would have been manufactured – look at what happened to HMS Sydney.
Sorry but I find this to be a major error on the part of the development of the game – especially at the time when the Clans invaded – having them there and not using them was a major failing within the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
06/25/19 02:49 AM
50.53.22.4
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Rarity of materials: If memory serves, there is a mineral (germanium?) which is appalling rare in the universe, relative to the amount required to build a jump drive. If the mineral cannot be obtained -- either by destruction of sources, or just plain "running out" (I'm old enough to remember *both* 1970s oil crises, thank you so very bloody much...), it matters not if the machinery to build the jump drives survives, or not. (Remember the lead-in narration to _The Road Warrior_: https://www.quotes.net/mquote/120750 .) This also applies to the rest of the advanced-tech -- if one cannot get the materials to make the equipment....
Repair Knowledge And Skill, or lack thereof: For a real-world example, look at any "Third World" nation (particularly those once aligned with the Warsaw Pact) with "modern" jets given to it by its more-powerful patron -- they have a bad habit of sitting and rotting, as the country's personnel lack the knowledge and skill to operate them; and if some fool tries to actually use one, inadequate training and inadequate maintenance result in said unit being splattered across the landscape somewhere. The result is: The complicated stuff is left to rot, and more-practical methods are employed. (I'm reminded of the TV show _Top Gear_'s "Botswana Adventure", where the VP of the country showed up in a powered parachute -- not even a helicopter, or a light airplane; a Powered Parachute.)
Then there's the problem of "the one guy in the office who knows how this thing works" -- what happens when he retires, or dies? Heck, I know people who are desperately trying to resurrect the computers used on the Apollo space program, so they can get the data off the tapes, and onto more-current media; because if those computers go away, it is bloody unlikely anyone would ever be able to recover the data on the tapes.
"Secret Stashes" Of Data: I have associates who, shall we say, deal in "end of the world" scenarios (in fact, some of them helped write John Ringo's _Black Tide Rising_ series). The tales they tell of "secure stashes of data" which were obliterated by a moderate rainstorm put a bullet in the skull of any argument that "secret stashes guarantee survival of data". (Ever seen a pic of a 3.5" floppy disk "backup" stuck to a wall with a magnet? Yeah -- that's *minor* compared to the horrors my associates have witnessed.)
The ability to make WarShips did not disappear in a day; more like a classic car in a junkyard, it slowly rotted away over many years, until there was nothing left which was usable.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Carns
06/25/19 08:32 AM
168.9.128.5
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Because the answer to every single one of your questions is ALWAYS the **** same.
It's a game about big, stompy robots. The fiction is altered to the point of making big stompy robot the focus of the universe, and to make the table top game fit on a tabletop.
Space Navies and orbital bombardment make things like ground forces basically obsolete. So they were eliminated.
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Requiem
06/25/19 09:01 AM
1.158.130.13
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Csadn sorry but I am going to disagree with your assessment due to the following reasons …
First, Rarity of Materials
When discussing the number of worlds within the IS the concept of “rarity” is a very difficult concept to determine as it depends upon how each individual system was formed, and what raw materials were on hand. In addition I would also like remind you that many of the mining operations within the IS deal with the concept of asteroid mining in the middle of nowhere – so what is rare within one system could very well be common in another. Given the balance of probability and the number of systems that are available throughout the the IS – for every one system we see on the IS map there should be a couple of thousand systems not included -thus I would say the concept of rarity is pretty much a moot point, as all you need do is just find it.
Second, the Road Warrior …. Mad Max
Despite it being an average and dated film, I would like to make the comment that the destruction of one world by two superpowers does in no way correspond to the thousands of worlds each Great House is currently in control of.
If you want to understand nuclear war / weapons can I suggest the following two BBC programs -
1. War Games – this was supposed to be for TV – however due to its realism it was banned from TV prior to its release and was only allowed for military training purposes; and
2. Threads – which contemplates life after a nuclear war.
Removing the knowledge of one world with the level of atomic devices each superpower holds should be a relatively easy when you consider the distance between the two of them and the number of warheads utilized. However, when you consider the vast distances and number of worlds and then the required intimate understanding for each worlds in order to ensure an accurate strike upon the target.
However when you consider the duration between when Amaris Coup began and that of the First Succession War there is ample time to ensure multiple copies of the entire knowledge base is manufactured and hidden – even to the point where a satellite revolving around a geostationary position within a hidden system or even within deep space.
There is also the issue as to educational institutions – Universities, Academies, Technical Collages and Corporations – how can you ensure the destruction of all of these institutions?
So how could you ensure that ALL OF these targets are destroyed, and as such the decline of knowledge occurs?
Thus I remain unconvinced as to the idea regarding a universal loss of knowledge – including the ability regarding repair.
Third, Repair Parts and knowledge.
Third World Countries – did countries like Russia provide the opportunity to their citizens undertake courses as to “aircraft repair”, thus did they ever have the knowledge in the first place – second when Russia no longer had an interest in the country they inevitably turned off the spigot – so how is that the third world countries’ fault.
Whereas within the Battletech universe you have only empires with vast number of planets and industries upon each planet – so how does repair parts come into it? Yes major production facilities have been destroyed over time – and yes there would be short term problems – however I still contend that with the application of knowledge the ability to rebuild is still achievable – and as such the ability to manufacture repairs is also achievable.
Fourth, Key man information
Yes there is an issue when a key man with specialized information retires or dies – however within my last organisation we ensured this specialized knowledge was transferred – yes I agree that certain information can become obsolete and even to the point where it is stored upon archaic devices – but again with the right application of knowledge this still can be overcome.
However I wold also like to point out the idea of master tradesman and apprentices.
Fifth, Secret stashes of information
As stated above the ability to manufacture and secrete information is very readily achievable – even to the point that even after a century it will still be viable.
Satellite – Solar Energy – Shielding – etc. or even within a hoe in the ground, comes to mind …..
Sixth, The slow decline of knowledge
Yes this is a slight possibility but I still contend the possibility is slight – just like a classic car that is restored to show room condition so that it can survive for many years to come, until there was also new models with a greater number of models which represented all the different aspects of vehicles for efficiency – speed – torque – the roadster, the soccer mum’s vehicle, utility vehicle, outdoor sports etc. until there is a vast number of usable vehicles each with their own purpose.
Seventh, was the nuclear war as devastating as it was purported to be?
When you look at the number of worlds devastated and then the total number of worlds that were not devastated it appears as though there is a vast gap – and how many industries survived because of that gap? And as such how many industries also survived.
The war was not as devastating as it was purported to be!
The argument can be made that knowledge can be retained and it can be used to recuperate even after a nuclear war.
QUOTE: Space Navies and orbital bombardment make things like ground forces basically obsolete. So they were eliminated.
And yet we have them reintroduced with that of the Clan Invasion – even to the point that the IS does not have any – and then there are “honor” restrictions in their use … can I say how silly this is appears to be?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/25/19 03:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Can I say how ludicrous this statement is! – one at a time due to extreme cost
How do you know this isn't true?
The clan home worlds could very well lack the resources needed to build these ships and keep their military in the form they are. The concept of wastefulness with resources is there for a reason.
And this is not to say how large and robust the clans economy's are. Imagine they hold the size of the FRR. That is all 17 clans left. Industry for civilians would be low, and most of the resources and money going to maintain their toumans. Until that is addressed, the canon implies a lack of such resources.
It was said a lot of tech was lost in the succession wars. Transit drives could well have been one of those not recovered. This is the same argument about tech stored in libraries and vaults. The IS had examples of ER technology, but no one seemed to try and bring it back.
The question is thus how did they loose this technology?
Nuking a world and no information was off world at the time? Cuts the risk of someone getting ahold of it when you only have one place it is kept sounds reasonable. KFC recipe is a good example. If that safe was destroyed, then there would not be the formula left, especially if it went up with the people that know it was there.
How many of those that knew the tech died of anything, even old age? It takes so long to build a single warship, and when being invaded, you put all resources you can to building the stop gap measures. A single warship in a year in a half will help, but it won't stop an broad invasion. So you put that aside, and deal with the small stuff. Also raids as well as virus's could wipe out information as well. Why let the enemy have that tech at all?
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ghostrider
06/25/19 03:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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First, Rarity of Materials
So how much Germanium is on Mars? Venus?
How much is in Alpha Century?
Assumption is what you have. The canonverse is set up so resources of certain things is limited. The arguments that canon has it wrong is just one person saying they don't agree with it, and trying to force others to believe they have the right idea.
With working for a big corporation, you already know the backstabbing that goes on, which would include virus's, deletions, the gauss idea to erase data if taken from a room, as well as stealing and putting in a fake. How about a location only they know of and it is lost when that person dies? This isn't even bringing in outside forces. Star League had very good intel and spec op forces. What would prevent them from taking out a facility with a fuel incident for a ship yard? Radiation prevents the use of facilities.
What happens to unprotected electronics with nukes going off near them? EMP.
Something that seems to be missing here is companies do NOT hand out their secrets. The Rollsroyce factory on earth is not about the hand out how to make the transit drive to the FS, or DC. And a lot of companies don't expand outside of their owns and secured territories.
If companies did, then they would waste billions of dollars of research for what? Someone else to make is cheaper? Someone you have no control over?
Today, we get a lot of things like computer chips made from out of the U.S. (in my case). Yet the main people that know anything about them is the factory workers. Espianage is always possible, but given how long things have been kept secret, they are doing a good job.
Now with the example of warships drives. That tech is owned by one house. ANY new engines that come out the they did not authorize would lead to a full out investigation and possible attack on the facilities. You can't hid something like a ship yard, for long, when the enemy owns the main coms systems. Simple supply runs would show where it is at. The TH was the top dog there.
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Requiem
06/25/19 07:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider,
QUOTE: How do you know this isn't true? – I was discussing the IS not the Clans …
However to answer your question,
Government and Corporation Finance – Can I suggest you look into the finances when not only establishing Mega Factories but also Mega Ships – Oil Tankers and Cruise Liners – then ask why they are doing what they are doing – even to the point they are blowing out the National Debt by Hundreds of Billions of Dollars - Or have you seen the price of some of the major takeovers lately even when some of these organisations finances appear a little bit “unique”.
When you have completed university courses in economics / international business etc. I can say with confidence that not only the State but also any corporation assisting the project would go into’ hock’ for a hundred years to ensure the mass manufacture of Warship engines – the long term profitability is there, plus the banks would also be happy to put up the funds also this project would meet the repayment-ability and security (Government Backed) requirements.
Plus when placed within an unknown system and provided with a massive amount of military so that a massive naval dock could be placed in space above it I cannot see what the problem is.
I agree that the chance of proprietary information that is held on only one world the chance of that information being lost to the universe is high.
However what we are discussing are transit drives for warships – can you see any state government not ensuring this information is safely secured so that they can continue manufacture in the years to come – a repository of all military technology as it were – I cannot determine why any IS government would not have multiple (even hundreds) copies scattered throughout their Realm to ensure its safety when it is quite obvious that a nuclear war is on the offing.
When considering the time to manufacture a warship – Consider the WW2 Liberty Vessel - SS Robert E. Peary - as well as the following
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-fast-could-america-build-more-aircraft-carriers-13653
Rarity of Minerals –why is this reply all about the negatives? What about the positives – Profit Participation for those who find the minerals for the company? You find it you get a massive one off golden payment that would set you up for life!
Company Secrets –
Proprietary Information – Don’t you think that maybe the government would ask for a copy of ALL the plans (including how they manufacture every part) of all the weapon systems they are purchasing?
As for Organisation Ownership – wouldn’t the government have restrictions as to who owns their military industrial complexes and who has access to all the secrets of all their military industrial complexes?
Sorry but if you are building a massive yard for the building of warships and all of the parts necessary to build it on the planet below it – don’t you think the government that is commissioning it wold be extremely paranoid as to every aspect of its security?
As for simple supply runs – sorry but there are methods that can be used to hide even them from its true location – but think about this put a dot in space create a three dimensional X, Y and Z and then consider all the points within the sphere within this 50 light years radius – you should have what a couple of thousand hidden systems and then if you are jumping first to empty space and then to a further 50 light year radius this would increase the number of what tens of thousands of hidden systems within a 100 light years from your original starting point?
So tracking a Jump-ship over 100 light years how is this possible without being detected upon the first or even second jump to reach the Naval yard?
I still contest you can hide it – space is just that vast (how many points can you jump into when invading a sysyem / planet therein – think about the sphere around that one systems and the multiple coordinates you could use) – and as long as the security is very tight its location could remain a secret for hundreds of years – and by then how many other hidden shipyards could you have established – not putting all your eggs in one basket comes to mind ….
Sorry, but I still contest that the Information would have been retained / and hidden shipyards exist. It is just too implausible to think otherwise!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/26/19 01:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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As with all non military air craft, they require flight plans. Do you think this isn't true for jumpships? Dropships?
Simple logging in at a destination would be the first step to finding a base. No registration for the Secret Project within a 30 light year jump of where it originated at. Or 60 if it is known to possess the Lithium batteries, which is doubtful on any non military vessel. Ordinary one. I am sure some ambassadorial ships have it.
why is this reply all about the negatives?
The sustained attack on the canon writing puts forth assumptions that things were not as the developers said they were. Sadly, they did not say just how bad it was in numbers, but did say materials were not as readily available as they should be. If they were, exploration of the periphery would not be needed.
I agree more then a few things don't work right, but I don't try to demand my ideas be the only way things should go. Rule issues need to be solid. The amount of bubble gum in the Combine doesn't.
Saying it is all wrong because there is 20 tons of bubble gum per person in the combine, while the writers imply there isn't even 20 tons on a world is the biggest issue going on again.
How can the makers of the games universe be wrong on what is in it?
Science has come a long way since the game was released.
But realize. You are talking about jump ships traveling up to 30 light years in a few minutes. That alone puts it beyond what we know today.
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Requiem
06/26/19 02:48 AM
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Tower this is the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird …Permission to file flight plan …. We will be leaving From Airforce Base at this time and date …. And we will be proceeding to fly over the USSR to photograph the following Nuclear Missile sites Located at …. as well as the Black Sea Fleet Located at …
Really?????
Errrr but no, covert missions do not ever get a flight plan that anyone can just look at … even in WW2 … please read the history of the USS Indianapolis as an example.
To get access to this level of information you would have to have clearance at the highest level imaginable within the military and/or State Intelligence Operation.
Well I can answer one question, “The amount of bubble-gum for recreational use within the Combine is zero, like Singapore as of today it is illegal to merely import or sell as chewing gum as it is illegal, unless it is for medical, therapeutic, dental or nicotine purposes – so you will need a Dr.’s Certificate”
That flippant remark aside I thought what was being debated was an issue not that we all sing kumbaya and talk about how the great developers never ever get anything wrong and the Cannon history is so infallible and that we should all just discuss how perfect the history has developed so far.
So, can I say then how perfect the following historical points are…
- The war of 3039 – Attacking Kurita and not subjugating Lia when they had the chance;
- The Clan Invasion – It was not rushed at all there was not a myriad of problems with the Invasion and the strategies employed;
- Turtle Bay – Yes it is correct to assume that Takashi Kurita would just sit in his tea room whilst the Jaguars obliterated an entire DC City via orbital bombardment as punishment for allowing his Grandson to escape – Yes the Developers truly understand a person like Gen. Tojo (WW2) as well as the Code of Bushido and the Samurai mentality;
- Huntress – Yes it is absolutely acceptable the IS forces return to the IS without a any copy of the complete Clan Technological Schematics for all of their weapon systems as well as their R&D – and all of the Factories that were captured upon Huntress – and all other sciences – including medical etc.;
- Jihad Era – yes the entire jihad era was absolutely wonderful – yes it was absolutely correct to see WMDs to the scale that entire worlds were killed of all life just for one man could be killed;
- Republic era – yes you can take away my Warhammer and give me a petrol powered forestry mech;
- Dark era – yes I believe someone didn’t pay the bill so the power has now been turned off.
Can you see this from my perspective please … when I look at the game there are issues that need to be discussed all I am asking is Keeping an open mind as to the possibility of an error and discussing it rationally and not always say the cannon is absolutely correct and I should just accept the correctness of their statements.
How can anyone say the totality of human knowledge was lost when all throughout the IS multiple worlds who have retained Universities of higher education and were never attacked – Like those on the Capitol worlds for example – how can their libraries one day not have the books they had in the past? How can all the experts in one filed just die out without ensuring their knowledge is passed down to another (preserved for the future)?
Sorry but a totality statement of this magnitude within both the Inner Sphere and Periphery cannot be considered to be a viable truth.
It comes down to the old Politician’s Syllogism – All cats have four legs; My dog has four legs; Therefore, my dog is a cat!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/26/19 03:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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I said there are plenty of issues with the canon storyline. I have yet to say my version is required as a rewrite.
I have said the rules need to be fixed before anything can go forward.
Some of those points are an opinion. There are more issues with the entire game that aren't listed and would have stopped a majority of the later issues had they been expanded on.
But this is a war game, and you can not sell product with the consumers guide to household items.
I have been trying to keep an open mind, and probably failing a lot, but some how canon subjects keep getting alt visions pushed in.
Saying things were not right, as they didn't fit your alt is causing alot of the argument. Arguing the developers game can't be the way they made it, because it doesn't make a good story, is the base of the issue.
The game is set up so some resources, such as trained techs, and a lack of raw materials is very well implied. Saying that the archon craps germanium isn't going to fly. Saying it is wrong is where this continues to be an issue.
Industry. There is no reason why certain items were lost, as the factories that built things like Endosteel and Ferrous armor were still in space. Most would have been automatic running. Just add fuel and materials. Instead of forcing the IS to build them, they just fixed the ones that remained.
But wait. That would mean they weren't all destroyed in the succession wars. So losing those two tech items is the start of issues. But that goes on long before 3025
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ghostrider
06/26/19 03:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue of League tech being in almost any cache found was never addressed. Not even finding a lance with upgraded weapons right after the stuff was found was even mentioned. Not even after 2750 came out. So the League tech should have been there before the Helm system.
Companies are not going to let anyone know their secrets, such as how to make the materials for, well, anything.
Buying items from other realms that have paid for the research and making the factories to make the stuff is easier then doing it yourself, as you have other concerns to put the money towards. The 5 houses of 3025 were not like they are now, while the TH was running things. They would still building and exploring parts of their realms as well as integrating the nation as a whole.
I do agree that they would try and get some items for their own building, but can see where that might be difficult. The fact the CC could build warships in their territory in the canon verse says just how bad some of the planning was. With the CC's condition after the 4th war, I do not see any way they could have a ship yard that could build warships. Even with WOBs help to make it, that just doesn't seem right.
But again. This is a war game. Outside of being politically correct, having the CC survive means they have openings for future story lines. As much bs as that is, it gives them an out.
I agree with the fact the FC should never have formed, and started alot of the issues that showed up later. Yet they tried to use that as the reason for the clan attack.
Agree with it? not completely. But it is not my story, nor am I a developer or contributor to it. So saying my way is the only way to fix it is going to get anyone to listen.
Keep that to the alt, so those that don't want to see it in the canon talk don't have to.
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Requiem
06/26/19 05:21 AM
1.158.130.13
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Then let me put it this way ….
Canon Statement of Fact – Due to the endless wars technology has declined throughout the IS and the Periphery.
Sorry, but I have looked at the Canon version from many points of view and I cannot reconcile how this could occur to the extent that is portrayed throughout all the books for the 3025 era on-wards.
So, how can this be realistically achieved so that the above statement rings true?
The only way, in my opinion, this could be made factual would be to have a brief and yet at the same time very vicious First Succession War in which EVERY planet within both the IS and the Periphery was virtually annihilated with only a fragment of the previous technology available as well as only a limited number of the original population.
It must also occur very quickly post exodus – thus ensuring there is only a very limited time for the existing House Lords for the preservation of existing knowledge on most of the technological / scientific topics.
It also ensures that all of the Successor States 3025 situation, as per the games historical setting, is adhered to.
So the answer is mass battles with very large fleets from all of the Great Houses and Periphery not only destroyed everything but at the same time destroyed 99% of all of their individual forces in a futile attempt at becoming the First Lord / or just protecting their individual Empire from that of their neighbors.
This is the only way I could rationalize such a technological decline throughout the IS and at the same time that of the Periphery. It also explains why humanity is continually striving to reclaim its lost scientific technology as well as the obsolescence of the Battle-Mechs / Drop-ships / Jump-Ships etc. throughout the IS and the Periphery as at the 3025 era.
Any other situation where you have limited battles over an extended period of time brings forth the issue of not only technological restoration but also the issue of human knowledge restoration that can reform the technology of each Great House at a much earlier date than that of the introduction of Helm Memory Core (The only memory core to survive the The Fall of Humanity – The First Succession War).
The above rant also explains why there is a neo-feudalistic society - 1st Prince, Duke of ..... etc. - in place rather than a government that could actually represent the entirety of each citizens within each realm.
Edited by Requiem (06/26/19 05:52 AM)
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ghostrider
06/26/19 01:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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I would think the SLDF has several thousand virus's in the coms system they could activate to remove the stored tech from any system that can be reached by an outside source. Even having it set up that it is refined for each house, just incase one of them gets adventurous.
As a back up, sleeper cells in each realm to go after those that are 'offline' and must be reached manually. I would also assume the other houses had similar things going on. Even competing companies would do the same thing.
And since the coms belonged to the SLDF, a repeating release of old and stored viruses could be done as the houses scramble to put everything they can into building weapons of war.
But consider this. How many of the different companies actually had the plans and made the more advanced items? It doesn't even have to be military, but things like regeneration machines and such. Donal PPC manufacturer probable didn't have anything dealing with missiles. And storing the information on how to make erppcs on a back world that isn't researching or manufacturing anything wouldn't be cost effective. It could have a normal ppc factory there, but with no plans to update it, having that information on a unsecured sight would be a folly. So the low tech things may have survived that way.
why there is a neo-feudalistic society - 1st Prince, Duke of ..... etc. - in place rather than a government that could actually represent the entirety of each citizens within each realm.
You do understand how humanity works?
Representation of each citizen is only an illusion to keep the masses from constantly revolting. The rich and powerful do not want the citizens to do more then support them, and not someone else. But there is no way you can represent them all.
If I said tax all the rich, and someone said no, because then they wouldn't hire people, who do you support? Normally the majority, but with the issues of power and money, there is really no such thing as equality. The feudalistic society allows that more then a democratic, and it is a lot faster of getting things done. A full concencous of what all want would take too long to get things done, even on a small world.
Use your own history. Why did feudalism survive for so long? The rich controls the government. So piece of bread are put out, so they can make more money and gather more power. The fact there were not more civil wars or even worlds ceding from the houses seems out of place.
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ghostrider
06/26/19 01:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Sorry that the last part of the last post seemed political.
Even with HPGs and such, a centralized government could not handle several star systems, much less something even the size of a periphery state with more the a single system.
So you put in people that you think would do a good job, or those that you know, and hope for a peaceful time.
With succession in power comes corruption, as those born into it, start to feel they deserve it and more.
I do agree that the level of tech fall is far more then it should have been. Their own 'history' shows this. Galtor is a prime example. They found a League base in 3025 era. Yet not a single shred of information on how to build League tech being there? They had the working weapons and such there, and could not do anything with them?
But again. Asking questions about why things didn't go right is fine. Saying that someone else's created world is wrong and needs be a certain way, and yet, not coming up with your own gaming system and put it out there with your views is very hypercritical.
As the original post asks, will the IS gain back all the League industry? (paraphrased)
No. As that will cause a major imbalance of the game, such as warships do. Wipe out invasion fleets from a distance, and still hit ground targets. Without your own, it is difficult to prevent this. And I will say, warships should be able to handle fighter swarm. Maybe not full regiments without their own, but then, that is what dropships are for. Carrying the things the main ship can't.
If production alone, the FC would take over. The FWL would have been the first ones to hit, in order to remove their industries from the equation. But the current lords wanted to be the hero, so chose the most aggressive or dangerous enemy and went for them.
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Requiem
06/26/19 02:59 PM
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Questions,
RE: Coms System – How is the Virus Deployed so that it affects every enemy communications system and penetrates every firewall / anti-virus program every House has devised? HPG / Warship Transmission one world at a time / A very advanced “Black Box” transmission aligned to the one frequency every House Unit (of one Great House) uses for all transmissions?
RE: Sleeper Cells – do you have one cell on every planet – how do they know if their worlds military communications have been effected – How do they gain access to the military and major industry communications rooms to go after them? Physically or via computer on every individual planet? This would require a great deal of for-thought and organisation to achieve.
Afraid the Comms do not belong the SLDF – Refer Wiki for Jerome Blake – HPG personnel provider Starlight Broadcasting Ltd and the Star League’s Department of Communications.
A pre-programmed virus would require an extremely Machiavellian individual to not only devise it but also to execute it through the manufacturer – if even one sleeper-virus is found and is communicated to all their rival great houses – they all then check theirs and find it also – how long do you think it would take for all the Great Houses to declare war on the TH. Politically what could the First Lord do when this is discovered? Resign / fight a war against all of the Great Houses at once , that will in all likelihood result in the destruction of the Star League / through the individual as well as the company involved under the “political / legal” bus whilst ensuring anti-virus programs are provided to every Great House together with a public apology (and a level of reduced political power that has now been transferred to the Heads of every State) .
QUOTE: How many of the different companies actually had the plans and made the more advanced items?
Is it not in the best interest of the Government at the time to ensure the dissemination of information for the security of the Realm? Could not the Government bring pressure onto an organisation or inducements such as a reduction in company and individual director’s tax rate, as well as ensuring ample compensation is provided for the licence provided to upgrade older technology to more advanced technology. Thus the dissemination of advanced military technology is disseminated throughout the realm.
QUOTE: You do understand how humanity works? Types of Government you are advocating is that of the Monarchy and the Dictator – However there are others Constitutional Government, Democracy, Distribution of Authority, Federal System and United States etc.
Just because someone has wealth and power does not make them the absolute ruler – humanity has fought too long to give up its rights that were first achieved at Runnymede – The Magna carta – “what know the reeds at Runnymede ….” – and down through history this document has ensured the rights of man over that of tyranny and will do so even to the end of time! As for corruption (as well as Nepotism) this too will always be a part of government – yet this is why we have a strong media to shine the light upon all the darkness.
Warships – and yet they exist within the game, as do WMDs – parity of weapons ensuring there is no imbalance in the game – an interesting idea, and yet has never once been achieved in human history – so why should such a concept exist in the far future, other than for the idea that it is game – and yet the FC should not have been a reality - and yet the CC should have fallen - and yet the Clans invaded – and yet with the invasion of Huntress there should have been a weapons parity between the IS and the Clans – and yet the WOB invaded with all of their new toys …. which somehow just disappeared from all the IS states when their final units also disappeared …..
Sorry, but I disagree the FWL would not strike at the FC (war being a very risky proposition at best) – being consummate politicians they would strike a deal and with the Marriage of Victor and Isis Marik the FC would become the Free Federated Commonwealth (FFC) or even remain as the FWL and in one fell sweep of a pen the universe can remove the DC and restore the Star league under a First Lord Marik-Steiner-Davion heir. Thus ensuring the safety of the former FWL people, industry and more importantly the wealth of its nobles.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/26/19 09:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Coms. The SLDF controlled the HPG. Leaving a special package that attacks information outlets after activated is it. The Black box tech wasn't used by the houses.
Sleeper cells. You don't need someone on every world. Just specific ones, and even them, in certain companies. A janitor could well be the one to activate the purge of the system. It doesn't have to be a programmer.
The good of the country does not over ride the good of the company. Especially big and powerful ones. Apple with the attack in California. They would NOT give up the encryption code to unlock the phones used. They tried to shut down Microsoft and lost there as well. So this doesn't fly today, why would if fly in the future.
Also, does Washington state have all the tech Silicon Valley has?
However there are others Constitutional Government, Democracy, Distribution of Authority, Federal System and United States etc.
How many in the U.S. government have been committing crimes over their careers and never being busted for it? Right now, the White House is ORDERING all ex employees to ignore subpenas for congress to do their investigations into the 2016 election. Corporations dong as they want, and not being proscecuted do to being in with the current powers. The oil and coal industry is having the government roll back pollution controls that protect the general public. Try living anywhere that has a coal plant that doesn't have to filter it's fuel stacks. This is even worse in a Corporate Republic. The reporters are having issues as well. Tow the line or be left out of any information given out. Oh wait. That is being done no matter if you back the current government or not. Any news, except the ones dictated from the top is being called fake news. Even if the person in charge is recorded saying it on live tv.
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ghostrider
06/26/19 09:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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parity of weapons ensuring there is no imbalance in the game – an interesting idea, and yet has never once been achieved in human history
Really?
A game meant to continue to make money needs to keep it balanced so there is always a war. Humanity, in reality, will never allow an even par for anything. That is pure communism, which means those in power would lose it all. Even China and Russia don't have it. They have their rich and leaders, and then there are the workers that suffer while the others have their extravagant parties and landfall of money flow, off the backs of the workers. The one government system for the world would really show that equality is fiction.
Sorry, but I disagree the FWL would not strike at the FC. That was saying the FC should have struck the FWL during the fourth or 3039 war. Remove the industrial base left to threaten the FC. Then it comes down to numbers.
being consummate politicians they would strike a deal and with the Marriage of Victor and Isis Marik the FC would become the Free Federated Commonwealth (FFC) or even remain as the FWL and in one fell sweep of a pen the universe can remove the DC and restore the Star league under a First Lord Marik-Steiner-Davion heir. Thus ensuring the safety of the former FWL people, industry and more importantly the wealth of its nobles.
Again. This is not about the alt. This solution does not exist. This was a discussion of why the canonverse had issues with the warship situation.
If it was about the alt, then the FC, FWL and others would not be even close to this situation, and therefor irrelevant.
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Requiem
06/26/19 11:40 PM
1.158.130.13
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How does a HPG Signal form one HPG to another HPG gain access to any military computer – as I would believe the two systems are air-gaped?
Question: How many security access levels would there be between the outside and that of any serious communications systems?
Quote: The good of the country does not over ride the good of the company.
Ans: China as well as here in Australia, as we both do have excellent laws that allow our intelligence agencies / police access to phone encryption to protect our citizens. Thus some countries do have established laws that most definitely look at the benefit of the State above that of the Company and the individual.
So how long before even Silicon Valley will be forced to comply?
Ghostrider, can I please suggest you quickly delete the extremely political paragraph contained within the entire last paragraph from the post timed it at 9.39 pm – I think this may have crossed the line somewhat.
Parity of WEAPON SYSTEMS
Yes the game is designed to have an almost continual war in one area or another. But how can you say there has been any parity when you compare 3050 IS weapons and that of the Clans and then when you compare it to the WOB forces would you say there was weapons parity there?
In answer to your reply timed in at 1.49 … and the first to suggest this in this post rather than discussing the issue of industry…. I contend that ….
FC – 4th Succession War – Half of the CC destroyed;
3039 – The remained of the CC id destroyed and subsequently merged into the FC;
Just prior to 3050 both Victor and Isis will come of age – uniting their states with a non-aggression pact as well as their military to remove the DC military is a sensible political next step for the FWL – in addition the FWL will also gain access to NAIS technology etc
Thus the next First Lord is not only half Steiner-Davion but is also half a Marik as well.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/27/19 02:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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How does a HPG Signal form one HPG to another HPG gain access to any military computer – as I would believe the two systems are air-gaped?
Do you understand Wireless networks?
Do you think Wireless networks aren't used in the future?
There is more then a few cyber attacks on things that don't have a land line attached to them.
And then the imagination that the HPG isn't attached to land lines so they can send out the command to other systems to begin the virus bombardment.
Stop asking for answers in the canon verse, that it appears you don't want any answers then say it is all wrong as it doesn't work in your alt.. If it was to be a non canon question then state so in the title.
Otherwise, I will agree with a few and say this type of post is heading down the trying to start argument lines.
The part of the post was not set for politics, but to show real life issues you are suggesting can't happen in a game or the future. If the admins think it is politics, then they will tell me, and delete the post.
Once corruption takes hold ALL government forms stop 'being' for the little guy or unity, and just to support the power people to gain more power.
In game terms, it is one of a few things that brings down the cohesion in the clans.
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Requiem
06/27/19 04:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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Can I say sorry, I was not intending to start an argument – I was just concerned for you that the post may be seen as going too far ….
So, can I ask where is it written down as to the different level of communication technologies?
Is the mode decided by via HPG (Representative) code? Such as ….
A – Wireless;
B – Landline;
C – Fax; and
D – post out via paper.
Also on the first day of Operation Barbarossa, in the afternoon of Sunday June 22, Stalin ordered the following, which became reality in the near future – “We must order them to evacuate the population and enterprises eastward. Nothing must fall into the hands of the enemy.”
With the Fall of the Star League due to Amaris’ Coup and the prospect of a future war between the Great Houses (First Succession War). Is it safe to say that those industries who were able to do so, and who could also be said to have a forward thinking CEO and the money to do so, moved their industry from a world that is considered to have a close proximity to that of another Great House (close to the border) to a more secure location within the Heart or a more remote location within their Great House – the decision of the world in question being determined upon a characteristic such as future trade access to their clients?
Would it also be considered prudent for the government at the time to assist with tax relief / subsidies to assist certain high tech industries to make the move?
Moving significant industries to the frontier makes sense ….
So why not move significant Jump-ship / war-ship docks etc as designing them as a modular and transportable system would be incredibly prudent ….
Other industries for consideration – Computer manufacturing, Communications, Pharmaceuticals, Health Care industry – high tech. equipment, certain military industrial complex organisations, important Government Departments – as well as many, many others …..
Thus the survive-ability (and the preparedness) of a Great House that implements such an order in a timely manner - their technology infrastructure as well as their underlining economy could be considered to survive for a longer time frame during what would become to be known as the Succession Wars.
Frankly I do not see why this was was never written into the history of many of the Great Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/28/19 02:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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If it went to far, then I am more the willing to take the punishment. I mess up, and I do the time.
A simple message sent over the air waves, to systems waiting to receive that message and start their thing. The SLDF is supposed to be the most advanced technological state. Why is it beyond them to have set up this years, maybe even decades in advance? That the same goes with the houses.
Now moving your industry is something I would think several tried to do. But first you have Amaris running things, so even attempting to move anything he wanted would mean confiscating the company to outright destruction. He forces were brutal.
Some could not be moved, such as Defiance. I would think others were caught in route or did get the move done, only to have the war wipe it out.
Moving the industries to the frontier is not a good idea. The periphery states would well hit them, just to pay you back for the war against them, and maybe gain the equipment to restart their factories. I mean, you are going to hit me when the two large states next to you are invading? I doubt it.
And where is a safe location to start building?
Let's not forget trying to acquire the land. How much time do you have to do this?
With the wars going on, it is likely more then a few companies died as the government was more concerned about fortifying their borders, then expediting a few companies factories to be built. So all resources that isn't nailed down would be geared towards defense/attack at this point.
Even with moving, there were deep raids in all realms. The little frontier world you set up making say Atlases on. The enemy figures that is a good target, and obliterates it. Well who is to stop them? Most of the forces would be shifted to the front lines.
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