Karagin
02/02/20 11:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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What was really gained at Twycross by the FedCom? Beyond realizing they could fight the Clans if they used larger forces and better tactics, what did the FedCom gain from their fighitng on Twycross?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/03/20 06:09 AM
1.158.235.15
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I don’t have the Twycross book, however given the available information within other source books …
Sarna.net wiki Twycross
First Battle of Twycross
“though losing the planet, they brought intelligence that aided the FedCom High Command in developing a strategy to overcome the Clans”
“ the 1st Somerset Strikers stole equipment from Jade Falcon to help close the Inner Sphere's technological disadvantage from the Clans”
Sarna.net wiki 1st Somerset Strikers
“they captured Clan technical data and material for the Vulture OmniMech and Elemental battle armor. This data had a considerable impact on FedCom R&D efforts, most notably providing solutions to overcome development problems plaguing the Bushwacker BattleMech, as well as the Infiltrator and Sloth battle armor programs.”
Second Battle of Twycross – September 3050
10th Lyran Guards
• Mechs – Reinforced Regiment (156)
• Armor – 5 Regiments (540) – PR (panzer) – CR (cavalry) – HA(R) (Heavy Armor) – PR (panzer) – AG (Artillery)
• Infantry – 6 Regiments (5,964) – 4 x MI (Mechanized) – JI (Jump) – BAB (Battle armor)
• Aerospace – Brigade 4 Wings (72)
• (unknown No of Conventional Aircraft)
9th FedCom RCT (Nt. Not included in the Field Manual Federated Suns)
• Mechs – Regiment (120)
• Armor – Brigade – 3 to 5 Regiments (324 to 540)
• Infantry – Brigade – 2 to 4 Regiments (1,626 to 3,976)
• Aerospace (Unknown)
• Conventional Fighters (Unknown)
Two Battalions of Kell Hounds (72)
Vs.
Jade Falcon Guards
• 55 Omni Mechs
• 150 Elementals
• Nil Aerospace
Jade Falcon Eyrie (elements of….)
Total force consists of …
• 50 Omni Mechs
• 75 Elementals
• 30 Aerospace
The Gash – Kai Allard-Liao – blowing it up and burring the Jade Falcon Guards -
Question following the Jade Falcons exodus how many Guards / Eyrie OmniMechs / Elemental / Fighters were salvaged and made operational once more? <Unknown>
Then it was lost in November 3051 to Gamma Galxy of the Steel Vipers (423rd Assault Cluster; 428th Assault Cluster and 94th Battle Cluster) during a sandstorm
423rd Assault Cluster
• 55 Omni Mechs
• 75 Elementals
• 30 Aerospace
428th Assault Cluster
• 55 Omni Mechs
• 75 Elementals
• 30 Aerospace
94th Battle Cluster
• 55 Omni Mechs
• 75 Elementals
• 30 Aerospace
Logically,
1st The Buswacker, why do you need Clan OmniMech information to make this “Mech”? You obtain the plans for an Omni and yet you make …. this …..why?;
2nd Infiltrator / Sloth – as first generation battle armor I wonder why / how they were ever approved for mass production as is beyond my understanding.
Second Battle
348 IS Mechs; 864 to 1080 Armor; 72 aerospace; 7,500 to 10,000 infantry; Unknown No. of Conventional Fighters Vs. 105 Clan Omni + 75 Elementals + a max of 30 Aerospace - doubtful the Clans can win – the IS don’t really need better tactics they can just pound on them – Artillery + Aerospace superiority
Steel Vipers
IS - 348 IS Mechs; Unknown No. of Salvaged Clan Omni Mechs + Weapons within IS Mechs; 864 to 1080 Armor; 7,500 to 10,000 infantry
Clans – 165 Omni Mechs, 225 Elementals
Nt. Aerospace / Conventional Fighters not included as was fought during a sandstorm. – ie. the Clans gave up their only advantage – their available 90 Aerospace fighters.
Note: I have a very hard time believing the Steel Vipers could have won this fight – even just a straight up Mech Fight it was still a two to one fight, but when you add in the armor + artillery - not a hope.
Plus the 10th and the Kell Hounds are supposed to be Elite units, so it is doubtful they would get spooked during a sandstorm.
In all reality the IS forces would have hunkered down and used their available scanners to the best they could until the sandstorm passed by.
Plus – They have been on the world for nearly a year – surely you would have gotten used to them (sandstorm) and even run multiple military preparation drills by utilizing their Salvaged Clan Mechs to evaluate the quality of their scanners during a sandstorm / night / day etc.
Infantry - by this stage you would arm your Infantry with enough weapons that can take down Elementals – SRM (Inferno); A very large Cal. Rifle that can bring down an elemental etc. So I doubt they would have survived for long.
So what was it I gained from Twycross –
Recognizing the need for 3 to 1 advantage when fighting the Clans;
Don’t know where advanced tactics come in to it. But if they did, great; and
Recognizing that TPTB completely ignore every other military unit except for available Mechs and completely rig the game!
other than that nothing - I still want to know what happened to the Omni-Mech plans - where are the Omnis that come from this information?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/03/20 01:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, that is grand, but it's a bunch of stats and really doesn't answer the question I asked. until the end where you repeat what I stated, beyond having to outnumber the Clan to win, which was an already known factor.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/03/20 04:58 PM
1.158.235.15
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Known factor?
To put forward my view doesn’t this require an analysis of the facts by utilizing / presenting all of the available information to hand so that everyone is on the same page?
That said,
Question: what did the FedCom gain from their fighitng on Twycross?
Information – 1st Somerset Strikers – Technical Information
BattleMech – Bushwacker
Power Armor – Infiltrator and Sloth
Assessment: BattleMech and Power Armor were all below sub-par for what you believe the information should have provided.
The Battles
Second Battle
Omni-Mechs – Salvaged Omni-Mechs from the gash plus other battles (Elementals and omni-fighters) + Salvaged Clan Tech that could be implemented into the 10th Lyran Guards, 9th FedCom RCT, Kell Hounds + R&D sites to learn how to build an omni
Knowledge – Why anyone is impressed by such an old tactic – “the gang bang” – is not really that impressive –using numerical numbers to win is not all that impressive or that new of an idea – is perhaps one of the oldest!.
Clan Omni-Mech performance report – salvaged Mechs would be put through their paces as to weapons (range and damage), sensor suite performance, movement and heat performance etc
Tactics – Unfortunately, not really that great – Wolcott utilizes sensor chaff within the trees to baffle Clan sensors – can’t see anything that important her .
Trellshire Heavy Industries – building Stalkers, BattleMasters and Riflemen
Note Jade Falcon Won the planet June 3050 and lost it September 3050 – within that short period of time what did Falcon engineers do to the plant?
It is stated they were still building the older model BattleMaster, but what else?
Information – FedCom should have received a copy of Clan Jade Falcon’s plans for Trellshire? How they were going to improve the production line / convert the production line? New Clan equipment / technology that was beginning to be included into the factory? Could this information be used to improve building practices throughout FedCom space?
Unfortunately no evidence of any real improvement.
When the DC won Wolcott they began manufacturing their own first generation Omni-Mechs
When the FC won Twycross they began manufacturing two ‘useless’ power armor designs – really? Where are the FC Omni’s?
Viper Battle – other than one of the most ridiculous battle ever considered and postulated as truth?
So overall Fed Com came out of it with a little information and examples of Omni-Mechs / Clan Weapons etc– that was never really used correctly (as no new FedCom Omni-Mechs were developed shortly there-after).
What they also should have come out of it – who ever called for the retreat off the planet when fighting the Vipers should have been put up on charges – cowardice in the face of the enemy! – should have been considered.
- Also the FedCom should have retained Trellshire Heavy Industries.
There is no excuse for loosing this world to the Vipers – this world should have become the FedCom version of the DC world of Wolcott – you would also assume that Camelot Command should have also been a second version also at the same time – and yet wasn’t!
So, what the game-players should have got out of this – how badly written a piece of history this could be that limits the future game development / options within the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/03/20 11:24 PM
70.118.172.64
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So what are you saying? Again you give these factoids, which I am going off the theory that are already known to folks who have played the game for a hot minute or two. Which tells me that you are not sure what they did or didn't do.
So let me try this for you, what did the FedCom gain as far as an operational understanding for future battles against the Clans? Did they fighting there actually gain them anything of importance that would have come from other fights or from studying things the Combine was facing at the same time?
You bring up the power armor and the Somerset silliness, I never asked about those factors which were not a part of the fighting on Twycross, so agian you are adding in information that was NOT aviable for the event. So can you answer the question set without the extra?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/03/20 11:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the high command is worth a damn, any contact with the enemy can give you some information on how they work.
I would think those generals and such that think they can just throw troops at them were shown that doesn't work.
I don't think they gained a huge amount of information on them, as they already knew that staying out of the clans sight with terrain was about the only way you can deal with the clans anywhere close to one on one.
It might also show they are like the DCMS before the 3039 war. Piss them off, and they come at you even harder.
They might have found out how good the clan sensors really were, as they could figure out who or what they did see, and what they didn't see.
Without a full accounting for what they found in things like the factories, I would say they won by beating the Falcons, as well as finding out the hard way, that another clan could void any such wins.
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Karagin
02/04/20 12:01 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
If the high command is worth a damn, any contact with the enemy can give you some information on how they work.
I would think those generals and such that think they can just throw troops at them were shown that doesn't work.
I don't think they gained a huge amount of information on them, as they already knew that staying out of the clans sight with terrain was about the only way you can deal with the clans anywhere close to one on one.
That does seem to be something that every military faces, you always have the commanders that want to keep feeding units in no matter what. Even when the situation calls for something else.
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It might also show they are like the DCMS before the 3039 war. Piss them off, and they come at you even harder.
They might have found out how good the clan sensors really were, as they could figure out who or what they did see, and what they didn't see.
This a good point, I think you are on to something, they would have indeed learned more about the limitations of the Clans and their technology in an environment that forced both sides to fight differently.
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Without a full accounting for what they found in things like the factories, I would say they won by beating the Falcons, as well as finding out the hard way, that another clan could void any such wins.
They did run into "C" models of second-line (one could almost say third-line) Clan Mechs, aka known SL and IS designs that had Clan weapons on them, like Stingers and such, but given the time the Falcons were on the planet, I don't think they had geared the factories up for anything else. Also your point about the Vipers coming along, yeah that does add another factor into things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/04/20 01:10 AM
1.158.235.15
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First, reading comprehension;
Second, the logical process of investigating available information, looking for assertions / hypothesis, and creating a logical explanation;
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what did the FedCom gain as far as an operational understanding for future battles against the Clans?
Nothing information wise …. they shouldn’t have already known from previous battles …
The Clan are very hide bound in their fighting styles …
When an IS unit assaults another IS unit they must assign forces throughout the world – to defend strategic points of importance;
However, this is not true for the Clans …
Due to the many years of Trial of “…….” And circle of equals for “……..” the Clans view of war is about as basic as it comes, what they want is a set piece war – one Fighting “Defensive” force on one side and the other Fighting “Attacking” Force on the other … so set your ground accordingly and then put your set pieces in place … then decimate the attacking Clans by utilizing a sliding scale of one RCT to one Cluster ….
Psychological assessment - The Clans sense of “ego and the id”, has produced warriors with such high opinion of self importance they are crazy enough to try almost anything to prove their value over another – all so their genetic legacy is maintained – they can obtain a surname – and they can rise through the ranks – where being the most violent and destructive proves their worth as a fighter.
The Gash –
question why didn’t the Clans sensor systems pick up the explosives?
Question why did the commander fall for such a stupid ruse – hatchetman no weapons – Boom – head flies away safely … does their psychological / military training produce gaps when it comes to understanding something every child at recess knows?
Material wise … whatever they were able dig out of the gash and collect off the battlefield … then examine … then disseminate the information so that all other regiments understand their capabilities … and limitations.
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Did they fighting there actually gain them anything of importance that would have come from other fights or from studying things the Combine was facing at the same time?
In a manner that shouldn’t be difficult to understand …… No.
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You bring up the power armor and the Somerset silliness
Historical relevance ... question: If the 1st Somerset Strikers acquired information resulted in an omni-mech comparable to the Avatar would this change your opinion?
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So can you answer the question set without the extra?
Simply put …No …. Context IS always required!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 01:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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If they were able to bring out salvage for the C units, they should have gained insight into making the weapons lighter and less bulky, as the clans normal 'SL' weapons were like that. But another tech advancement that was 'forgotten' or left out. Or did they write that out of the game in a future rule book?
Though I thought the Falcon Guard was omnimechs.
I would also think the different fighting styles would show that one tactic will not fit all clans. There will be some similarities, as with any sort of military force, but that each clans needs it's own 'playbook'.
As for nothing new informational wise, I believe they did. I believe this was one of the first times they had front line omnis with garrison units in the same fight. It would show that there is a difference on how they treat each other in the Falcons at least. The garrison units would be more willing to die then the Omnis, as they want to prove themselves to return or even be in the front lines for the first time.
The Vipers were described as being ones for quick strikes and pull back to set up another set of strikes. Without having books to read, the IS commanders would not know this. So this should give them some insight to the Vipers.
This combined with the Falcons soon chasing the Vipers out of the FC, should tell them that it is not one big happy family in the clans.
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Requiem
02/04/20 03:18 AM
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Quote:
another tech advancement that was 'forgotten' or left out. Or did they write that out of the game in a future rule book?
Completely ‘forgotten and left out’, why would you give the FC Omni Tech as they did with the DC? and yes the Guards were Omni …
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he different fighting styles would show that one tactic will not fit all clans.
I wouldn’t go that far
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I believe this was one of the first times they had front line omnis with garrison units in the same fight.
Where did you come by this information? and the idea that Garrison units are more “adventurous / reckless” may be hard to prove …. POWs is about the only way this information could be verified.
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The Vipers were described as being ones for quick strikes and pull back to set up another set of strikes.
Utilizing the ’strike and fade’ approach to war has been around for how long? And how many cavalry units use this tactic?
So really nothing new!
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This combined with the Falcons soon chasing the Vipers out of the FC, should tell them that it is not one big happy family in the clans.
Inter Clan fighting should show this …. then when POWs (Bondsman) are captured as well as “the Dragoons Report” from Outreach is when all hypothesis will be put to bed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/04/20 09:07 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem
Again the Strikers were NOT a factor since they were NOT around for this fight, I did not ask about Adam and his misfits, I am asking about the battle on Twycross. Let's stick to that. Anything that came AFTER the battle was done other than an analysis of the fighting on Twycross is NOT part of this. I did not ask you for extra; I asked the basic question about Twycross and the fighting there, I did not ask or want an overview of the entire warzone. No, it would not change my opinion, the whole Strikers was a joke and half and FUBARed many things and that is an entire topic of its own which has NO bearing on Twycross at all. Also, the Strikers were a retcon to the events, added in AFTER the damn cartoon came out to give it some kind of footing in the overall setting of the game since they wanted to market it, thus NOT a factor in this disucussion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (02/04/20 09:20 AM)
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Karagin
02/04/20 09:18 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
If they were able to bring out salvage for the C units, they should have gained insight into making the weapons lighter and less bulky, as the clans normal 'SL' weapons were like that. But another tech advancement that was 'forgotten' or left out. Or did they write that out of the game in a future rule book?
The C mechs were not forgotten as more of just not used, there were record sheets in the old record sheet books the mid to late 90s. So they were there to be used, just never went anywhere in the novels beyond Stackpole using them once in the novel Natural Selection with the Clan unit having them since it was solhama unit.
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Though I thought the Falcon Guard was omnimechs.
They were Omnimechs. Not sure why Requiem thinks otherwise.
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I would also think the different fighting styles would show that one tactic will not fit all clans. There will be some similarities, as with any sort of military force, but that each clans needs it's own 'playbook'.
As for nothing new informational wise, I believe they did. I believe this was one of the first times they had front line omnis with garrison units in the same fight. It would show that there is a difference on how they treat each other in the Falcons at least. The garrison units would be more willing to die then the Omnis, as they want to prove themselves to return or even be in the front lines for the first time.
Yes, a playbook is what would come of this, since they would expect and assume that each Clan fought differently or adjust as the Inner Sphere units would. Recalling this is still BEFORE they get all the info from Wolf and share things with the Combine. And the mix of front line units and second line units does show a change at least for the Falcons.
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The Vipers were described as being ones for quick strikes and pull back to set up another set of strikes. Without having books to read, the IS commanders would not know this. So this should give them some insight to the Vipers.
This combined with the Falcons soon chasing the Vipers out of the FC, should tell them that it is not one big happy family in the clans.
The Vipers came and pulled the same tactics the FedCom used against the Falcons, aka using the planet and it's weather to their advantage. That alone should have been something of interesting even a year or two later for the Inner Sphere to make note of.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 11:05 AM
66.74.60.165
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From the books saying anything with anything but front line troops tend to want to prove themselves enough to get to the omnis and the front lines. It is the only way they can be assured of having the DNA used. Otherwise, they fade away into nothing. The whole superiority complex thing. The Hunchback IIC has something suggesting this in the fluff.
So the fighting styles of the different clans don't need their own little tweaks to deal with? So the strike and fade isn't more difficult to get into IS weapons range, as they do fall back to re-engage with their superior range, verses the ones that just keep moving forward, or don't give ground? Tactics fail?
I can see why the IIC shouldn't have taken hold much, as solemha units aren't really what people wanted to fight. Also they were bottom of the military ladder, so they would not be in the front lines as much.
I had forgotten about the 'custom' mechs that the clans made, like the Kodiak. So was going to ask what they used other then omnis. I would ask about the future of the story, but this is dealing with Twycross.
It was written that only a rare few PGC units were omnis.
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Karagin
02/04/20 01:01 PM
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Okay, C mechs and IIC mechs are TWO different animals entirely.
The C mechs are nothing more than a standard mech, be it a common IS mech or an SL one, with ONLY Clan weapons in place of what those mechs had, so a Warhammer C would be the same in terms of two-particle cannons, some lasers, and an SRM pack, just all would be Clan Tech weapons. Nothing else changes.
The IIC second-line mechs are PURPOSE built machines that have ALL Clan tech from Internal structure to heat sinks to the engine to weapons. That is the big difference between the two, and many aren't rotated to the PGC until AFTER events like Twycross.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/04/20 02:35 PM
1.158.235.15
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Karagin,
Let us look at the questions you asked:
“What was really gained at Twycross by the FedCom?”
“Beyond realizing they could fight the Clans if they used larger forces and better tactics, what did the FedCom gain from their fighitng on Twycross?”
The question refers to ALL FedCom Forces upon Twycross, and the questions are also NON Date / Battle specific … so what does this infer / comprehension of the questions asked ….
All FedCom Forces and their dates therefore include the following units…
Twycross TMM …. 3050
1st Somerset Strikers …. (between these two dates)
10th Lyran Guards
9th FedCom RCT
Kell Hounds ……… September 3050 …. And November 3051
If you wish to exclude certain items from your question please review and reformat the original question … suggest ….
“What was really gained by the FedCom Forces, upon Twycross during the Battles of Twycross ranging from September 3050 to November 3051?”
Specific questions are required, I am not a mind reader, otherwise the questing refers to an overarching of every unit and every time period …. OK.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/04/20 03:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, for those of us who don't just accept something because it was shoehorned in like the Strikers and Twycross which was a way around the idea that unlike the Combine, the FedCom NEVER asked for copies of the Clan Tech and thus weren't going have nifty battlearmor, etc.
So let me help you out, I am referring to the ONLY battle of Twycross that has a scenario book, does that help?
I would love to edit the original question/topic, but alas Nic has a limit placed on that ability, wish he would adjust it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (02/04/20 03:24 PM)
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Requiem
02/04/20 03:41 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
They were Omnimechs. Not sure why Requiem thinks otherwise.
Please refer my post 02/03/20 04:58 PM – “Omni-Mechs – Salvaged Omni-Mechs from the gash plus other battles (Elementals and omni-fighters) + Salvaged Clan Tech that could be implemented into the 10th Lyran Guards, 9th FedCom RCT, Kell Hounds + R&D sites to learn how to build an omni”
Quote:
Yes, a playbook is what would come of this,….
Please refer my post 02/04/20 01:10 AM … known from previous battles … The Clan are very hide bound in their fighting styles …
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The Vipers came and pulled the same tactics the FedCom used against the Falcons, aka using the planet and it's weather to their advantage.
Please refer my post 02/03/20 06:09 AM under the heading Steel Vipers
Utilizing the same tactics here should not have worked – this “in my opinion” – is very poorly written scenario.
What we have here is a classic example of the Battle of the Bulge – however the 101st, 2nd, 99th and 9th in this case have massive supplies and are ready for anything …
IS forces have been upon the planet for nearly a year – and sandstorms are a near constant phenomena upon this word - so can anyone explain how Elite units are not prepared to fight in such conditions after being there for such a long period of time? Especially when they have salvaged Clan tech that they can use to simulate any previously recorded clan attack patterns – plus any other possible scenario that any half decent commander could come up with.
Hit and Run; long range sniping; Dropping right on top of the base from a drop-ship (headhunter CO and staff – disarray / panic); arrow formation to punch through (again - headhunter CO and staff – disarray / panic) plus any other that could be thought up would have been extensively trained for – that is unless you think they should just sit down and do nothing but guard everything (and scattered over the world) over the past year, and there are has been no preparations whatsoever for a Clan Counter attack.
IS Forces have anywhere between 864 to 1080 Armor and 7,500 to 10,000 Infantry (many are mechanized units!) – plus 348 IS Mechs and an unknown number of Clan Mechs and IS mechs with updated Clan weapon tech.
With a fortress approach groundwork – pre-established gun emplacements for the armor, with interlacing / multiple field of fire from artillery and armor (to which they have already been zeroed in for certain locations) – plus a ready reaction unit of Mechs and Cavalry Armor I doubt the Clans 165 Mechs and 225 Elementals could have made a significant dent. Especially if you had pre-arranged positions to fall back upon that could concentrate the field of fire in any direction (360 Degrees – Battalion artillery support) if necessary.
Plus the infantry by now understand how the elementals move and fire and they understand how to detect them in all conditions – subtle they are not - the fear they once evoked is gone, all infantry have by now developed tactics to bring them down – and they would have the weapons to do so, and they would have the tactics and training to do so.
Plus fighting within a sandstorm is a waiting game – once it is gone you can get your air support up (both sides) to determine who has air superiority – I would also like to point out that the IS should have access to a vast array of conventional fighters and bombers (something that is overlooked by everyone every-time)
No, this canon battle with the Vipers is a complete sham!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/04/20 04:09 PM
1.158.235.15
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I would also like to point out the following …
Sarna.net wiki Twycross
“where cataclysmic events and powerful wind storms are common …. Due to these storms and events the population placed their cities and towns underground or made surface structures squat and flat. Twycross has a massive and continuous storm known as the Diabolis, which spawns never ending destructive weather”
‘During the last years of the Star League, Twycross supported a garrison of Star League Defense Forces.”
With towns and cities being underground … does this mean they have inter connecting tunnels …. Does this also mean that you can lure clan units underground?
If so can I call for city tech strategies – infantry in the walls / buildings etc with Inferno SRM and anti- mech Jump tactics where they can swarm the Clan Mechs and lay many traps of the Elementals like what was done on Huntress and other worlds to defeat elementals?
Plus is the Star League Guarrison still Operational and can it be used by the IS forces as their central base?
Psi-ops – by placing IS forces with a SL military facility wouldn’t this enrage the Clans – desecrating a church? – when people get angry they get sloppy and on a battelfied this will just get you dead!
Moths to a flame – provide the right bait and the clans will come to you ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/04/20 04:11 PM)
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Karagin
02/04/20 04:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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And none of that was a factor when Victor picked it, so again can you stay on topic, which is about the FedCom and their attack on Twycross and what they learned from it, NOT all the retcon added stuff from later on down the road. If you need help, I would suggest re-reading the novels Lethal Heritage and Blood Legacy.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/04/20 04:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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Also the factoring in of salvage doesn't mean they automatically get Clan tech on their mechs, everything they took would end up in NAIS for study, not field use.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/04/20 04:24 PM
1.158.235.15
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Also the factoring in of salvage doesn't mean they automatically get Clan tech on their mechs, everything they took would end up in NAIS for study, not field use.
Can I laugh now at the absurdity of this statement ….
How many times have we seen IS forces who capture clan tech who end up using it rather than sending it to R&D?
Yes NAIS and other R&D sites will receive a percentage of the salvaged vehicles but can you see Victor giving up an advantage of maintaining an anti-clan ready reaction force that has been equipped with their own Clan Omnis?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/04/20 04:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, the factoring in of salvage doesn't mean they automatically get Clan tech on their mechs, everything they took would end up in NAIS for study, not field use.
Can I laugh now at the absurdity of this statement ….
How many times have we seen IS forces who capture clan tech who end up using it rather than sending it to R&D?
Yes NAIS and other R&D sites will receive a percentage of the salvaged vehicles but can you see Victor giving up an advantage of maintaining an anti-clan ready reaction force that has been equipped with their own Clan Omnis?
At this stage of the war, they would be sending the items BACK for study; later on, sure, they would keep it. Still, again you seem to be confusing things here, I am not asking about post 3055 events or how things are done after that date, I am talking about Victor's attack on Twycross, nothing more. So can you stay on that topic and stop trying to derail things with your retorts on what you feel are wrong with the game and its backstory. If you want to gripe about those issues, then start a thread that is solely for that point and purpose.
So moving back on to the topic ANYTHING Victor and his forces took OFF world when they left Twycross would have gone back NAIS since that would be the standard operating procedure for them at that point. Given that while Victor would be well aware of the tech advantage, etc...the compatibility factor comes into play. They would not have the tech ability to make the stuff work, and they would be under NO illusions that it would work with their mechs. Thus it takes time to figure those things out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 07:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Interesting. I didn't think Karagin meant anything but the time between retaking Twycross from the Falcons to the time the Steel Vipers took it from the FC.
Enough with suggesting every unit in the FC can be at one place at one time. This is not, and will never happen. Not guarding some place other then ground zero is impossible because ground zero is there only for a short while. Without having telepathy, you can't know exactly where the enemy will strike. Using the end books to change the combat after the fact does not work.
I do think that most, but not all salvage would have gone back to the NAIS or some other research facilities.
As the Revenants were using clan tech in later battles, it would suggest they kept some of it. But then, that is after the Dragoon meeting, which would or should have techs being trained. The Dire Wolf Victor used had to be clantech.
At the time of this question, most clantech was beyond the IS to maintain, much less fix properly.
Twycross should have told the IS that clans were not immune to carefully placed mines, though I guess Vibromines have something advanced probes can detect. But remote controlled ones? Especially wired ones, not air gapped as some would call it, seem to be undetectable.
And with that, it would be a tactic to use canyons and such as a means to cause uncertainty with the clans, as they would wonder if it was rigged or not. Even if you couldn't, it would still be a trick.
Maybe pitfall traps might have been used more afterwards. Shame they didn't use the MAC buildings and traps in the clan invasion. Simple doors that open when a mech steps on them, and drop them into explosives and such would help a lot.
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Karagin
02/04/20 08:33 PM
70.118.172.64
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Twycross should have told the IS that clans were not immune to carefully placed mines, though I guess Vibromines have something advanced probes can detect. But remote controlled ones? Especially wired ones, not air gapped as some would call it, seem to be undetectable.
And with that, it would be a tactic to use canyons and such as a means to cause uncertainty with the clans, as they would wonder if it was rigged or not. Even if you couldn't, it would still be a trick.
Maybe pitfall traps might have been used more afterwards. Shame they didn't use the MAC buildings and traps in the clan invasion. Simple doors that open when a mech steps on them, and drop them into explosives and such would help a lot.
This should have become, in my opinion, a very common tactic the Inner Sphere would have used, mines and lots of them. Thunder LRMs should have been in play more, and yes the Clans would figure out a way around them, but the mines would still work since it forces them to fight on the IS level and gave things back to the Inner Sphere.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/04/20 09:28 PM
1.158.235.15
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Michael A. Stackpole, Lethal Heritage
10 September 3050
– Page 254
“considerable number of vibro-bombs were deployed”
“violent sandstorms made communications difficult except by landline”
- Page 255
“explosives in the gash – needed to close the gap”
“The Diabolis will make fighting tough, but it gives us an advantage by shortening ranges and diffusing energy beams at anything but point blank range. The infighting will be nasty”
“The Diabolis has moved into the area, which means communications are all fragmentary …"
- Page 257
“Wind s in there have been clocked at more than 350Kph”
- Page 258
‘At point blank range, the invaders targeting edge meant nothing, reducing the battle to a contest that would be decided by the opponents’ sheer firepower and the strength of their defences.”
“Because of their superior numbers, they concentrated fire on a single target ….”
“The Falcons, in keeping with what Victor saw as their standard battle doctrine, picked out individual targets and attacked them to the exclusion of all others…”
“The Falcon commander quickly reined in his people, and the invaders began a controlled advance, willing to let the mercenaries choose their own place to die. …. Once they engage solidly, then we can call in the Second Regiment. …. I think this is actually going to work!” (Reference to Hounds Vs. Eyrie)
- Page 259
This is when it was discovered that the Guards were pouring through the Gash
- Page 261
APC mentioned as well as sappers placing explosives in the Gash – caught by the Toads.
- Page 267-8
Kai Challenge – accepted – detonating his Hatchetman’s fusion engine and setting off the explosives – entombing a “regiment” of Clan Mechs.
- Page 270-1
This is where it doesn’t make sense – Unbeknown to Victor (as he believes the Gash is open and the Clans are about to pour through into his rear / falank) orders his dropships to hold the Gash.
He then orders the 10th to shore up Akira’s right flank – the 9th need 45 min to be free of the storm.
<Question - what the hell is his armor doing/>
- Page 273
“ as nearly as we can figure out, the Falcon Commander knew something was up when their reinforcements did not come through the Gash. She issued the order to pull her people back to they could slip out of the Plain as evening came on. They did not expect to run into the Ninth F-C and so lost a few mechs there. The Ninth is still pursuing the rest of them, but those damned Mechs run very cool, so they’re stretching out the range on our people.”
- Page 273
… report on heat sinks – “The Techs think those units, which are about the size of our own heat sinks, probably are 150 to 200 percent more efficient than ours.”
“The prisoners seem rather shocked at the defeat too, but they’ve adapted. Mostly they want to know the name of our clan so they know to whom they owe their allegiance”
10 November 3050 – Victor is on Tharkad
Report, the Clans have pulled back and made no attempt to retake Twycross.
Michael A. Stackpole Blood Legacy
16 November 3051 – Victor Inbound Alyina F-C
No mention whatsoever as to Twycross.
So, what was learnt –
Choose your ground carefully
Restrict range
Concentrate Fire when you can
Falcons – are very traditional in their use of rules – fighting one to one to the exclusion of all others … accepting challenges etc - retreat in good order
Strong discipline in drill marching their mechs whilst in combat – wheel on a dime, form a line and advance quickly etc
The Clan’s ‘Mechs run cool – twice as efficient heat sinks for the same size.
Prisoners want to join “Clan Victor”.
Though what I want to know is why you would start a battle when a third of your ‘Mech force is over an hour or two away and stuck in a sandstorm.
I would also like to know where the hell the entire infantry , armor units as well as aerospace / conventional fighters were during the entire battle – Victor has a battalion of artillery attached to his armor and yet it required Kai to set off the explosives in the Gash by sacrificing his Hatchetman …. What the?
I would also like to know where the hell Victors reconnaissance assets were – such as Boomerang spotter planes – these should have been used to keep an eye over the battlefield – so when the Falcons moved in on the Gash it really should not have been that big a surprise.
The entire story was written from the point of view that the only forces Victor had was his ‘Mechs, maybe a company of infantry engineers with APCs and great deal of demolition explosives and vibro-bombs (that were never used)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/04/20 09:42 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
At the time of this question, most clantech was beyond the IS to maintain, much less fix properly.
How many ‘Clansmen’ became part of Clan Victor at the end of the battle in 3050?
Quote:
At the time of this question, most clantech was beyond the IS to maintain, much less fix properly.
The mines were off line – the HE det charges that were in the Gash’s Walls when detonated will cause a sympathetic explosion causing the mines to explode (and are then wasted if needed in the future)
Quote:
Shame they didn't use the MAC buildings and traps in the clan invasion.
Post year of peace is where these should have become more evident.
Here – they couldn’t do it – sandstorm would probably bury the door.
Quote:
…..mines…..
Unfortunately the writing was very bland on this topic.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/20 01:58 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well some armor, the hover craft, and the spotter planers were probably grounded as the 350 kph sandstorm would have sent those units into oblivion. And if physics actually work, the shells from artillery would be dramatically affected by those same winds.
I would guess the infantry stayed out of the battle because of the winds as well. By the time it calmed down enough to do anything, it was too late.
As the terrain was at least rough near the gap, it is reasonable to believe the vehicles were reduced in what they could do, so guarding their base camps, with their ammo dumps would probably be a good idea. Also, calling in the dropships to ground themselves to guard the pass would suggest that maybe those units weren't even dropped.
Again. Every unit you have will NOT be in the same place all the time.
Now for some logic.
How many clan warriors actually know how to fix their own equipment? Bondsman in the clans tend to have techs that help them, or even order them to do the crappy tasks, such as cleaning the heatsink grills, or scrubbing the mechs armor. It would be like taking a fighter pilot and demanding them to maintain their aircraft today. Most could not do more then wash it. I doubt it that even a few could fix the guns or missile pylons on their aircraft. So this is a total misconception that they can just train the IS how to do this.
Not all the buildings were out in the open to fire on enemy units. Some used remote sensors to track and target the enemy.
But all of this is getting away from the question.
As said. The FC learned a few things about the clans, including the fact that they are willing to risk moving in a sandstorm to win a battle. That means the Steel Vipers were not the same as the Jade Falcons. The Falcons were more bound by their tactics of move in and fire while doing so. The Vipers would do so, but they prefer the hit and run style over the stand and deliver style.
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Requiem
02/05/20 04:28 AM
1.158.235.15
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the 350 kph sandstorm
Think about this, can anything move within 350kph wind, even an assault ‘Mech?
Within the Diabolis – similar to that of a Typhoon / Hurricane - The speed varies according to environmental conditions. It does not mean that this was the speed of the wind with the Diabolis at that time …. Otherwise I doubt any Mech from either side could have moved, both sides would have to hunker down until it passes!
And outside of it, normal wind speed…. So,…. Artillery works, hovercraft work, spotter planes work … otherwise how can ordinary infantry walk around planting vibro-mines and explosives within a cliff face if they have to do it in 350kph wind?
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As the terrain was at least rough near the gap, it is reasonable to believe the vehicles were reduced in what they could do,
Then how did A.P.C.s get into the gap loaded with engineer infantry, HE demo charges and vibro-mines?
Quote:
calling in the dropships to ground themselves to guard the pass would suggest that maybe those units weren't even dropped.
1st Day of Tactics / Strategies Class 101 – “Do not ever divide your forces in the face of the enemy!”
Question why would you only engage the Clans with a partial amount of your forces? – only the king of all fools would attempt this! … again sending in your forces piecemeal is the height of stupidity!
Quote:
Again. Every unit you have will NOT be in the same place all the time.
Your intelligence Unit has stated that there is one garrison unit on the planet and they are located in one place.
Why would you send your forces all over the world, dividing up your overall strength, and then just leave the ‘Mechs and some armored engineering infantry to fight the unit you were sent to destroy? …. So Victor’s ability to lead is ….?
Quote:
How many clan warriors actually know how to fix their own equipment?
Depends upon the philosophy of the Clan you work for …
If you treat MechWarror the same as a Pilot today – they would know absolutely nothing, they would need to trust their ground crew, but you must remember if something does go wrong the chance of the aircraft being able to land is next to nil, so there is no real point in training them for the event they land their busted aircraft and have the tools to fix it – it would more likely become a smudge on the ground.
However, if you treat a MechWarrior the same as a crew for a Tank – they would have a reasonable amount of knowledge to keep their vehicle in the game – treads and engine at the minimum – so the same would be for a ‘Mech – in the event you are far away from your Tech Crew you should still be able to know how to keep it going.
In my opinion, basic maintenance would be required in the highly unlikely instance the warrior is separated from their technical crew and they need to get it going. Weapons however would be a technical crew requirement.
Sorry, no it is not a misconception that they can just train the IS how to do it – Gray Death Legion is a good example – Field Manual: Mercenaries – Page 56 – Technical and Transportation Support – “Every MechWarrior is also a trained astech and is expected to contribute to the regular maintence of his or her machine …. all infantry perform their own maintenance …”
Quote:
The F-C learned a few things about the clans, including the fact that they are willing to risk moving in a sandstorm to win a battle. That means the Steel Vipers were not the same as the Jade Falcons.
Even after the first couple of battles it would be evident that each Clan utilizes different strategies whilst in combat …. The Dragoons should have confirmed as much whilst on Outreach.
However,
After reading this section again within Lethal Heritage – It is quite clear the writing completely ignores the true capabilities of a RCT – what we get is a sanitized ‘Mech Battle with the odd Vechile, armor, infantry, aerospace.
If used to their full force the arrayed F-C force should have flattened both units with relative ease.
If this is how TPTB determined the fight of every world within the Clan Invasion I am here by stating that the entire canon history is a fraud and must be disregarded for the fallacy that it is!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/05/20 10:04 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, thanks for the information and I am sorry you feel the story is a fraud.
And on that note Cray can you close this topic down please thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/05/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reduced capacity. Not completely useless. If one road exists to get into the area, the APCs can get up there to drop off infantry. That does not mean fighting vehicles can maneuver, or even contribute to the combat below.
The master of tactics is at it again. Dividing your forces is necessary at times, as things like Pincer movements occur. Then there is diversionary tactics. But again. You can magically fit an entire RCT on a single map in the game. Wait. No, you can't.
Sending forces all over the world is the make sure the intel is accurate as well as try to protect other places incase the enemy flees or breaks off some units to destroy something like the factories. It isn't like that hasn't happened in the history of the IS wars. Raids are especially well known for things like this. But then 300 years of succession wars needs to be dropped immediately for a new foe.
You do realize we are talking about clan warriors not mercs. The clans fight short battles, and a warrior would not stoop to doing such work for the most part. That is for the worker caste. They are warriors.
Mercs are so limited on resources a lot of the time, having trained pilots helps keep the bottom line low.
Sorry the thread got off so badly.
It has been suspected that bagging on the developers is the main thing for one person.
I do not believe things are alright in the game, but I don't say they need to do it my way.
It bites another thread gonna get locked because of this.
Not that I don't carry some of the blame.
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Requiem
02/05/20 04:18 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
If one road exists to get into the area, the APCs can get up there to drop off infantry. That does not mean fighting vehicles can maneuver, or even contribute to the combat below.
Lethal Heritage – Page 255 – It is clearly shown that Victor has identified that the Gash MUST BE closed to ensure his flank / rear is kept secure.
If an APC can make it then a panzer or heavy armor can definitely make it.
Then you expect me to believe that only a couple of squads of engineering infantry are sent to secure the area?
He as anywhere between 864 to 1080 armored units – including two panzer, one heavy armor, and one artillery regiments as well as between 7,500 to 10,000 infantry and you expect anyone to believe that a contingency force / contingency plans are not in place to secure his flank / rear?
Wouldn’t you - at a minimum - have your entire regiment of artillery as well as a fighter complement armed with gravity bombs zeroed in on the Gash and ready to go at a moment’s notice if it was that important?
Again this is not believable when you consider the entire TO&E available to Victor!
Quote:
The master of tactics is at it again. Dividing your forces is necessary at times, as things like Pincer movements occur. Then there is diversionary tactics. But again. You can magically fit an entire RCT on a single map in the game. Wait. No, you can't.
This is the Clans we are talking about, not the DC.
Page 258 – Hounds Vs. Eyrie
One Battalion of Kell Hounds (36) Vs. elements of the Jade Falcon Eyrie (it appears that only their ‘Mechs were on the battlefield - Their maximum force is 50 ‘Mechs).
What everyone has learnt so far is that you need a minimum of 2:1 in ‘Mechs before you should engage them due to their heat, movement and range advantage – so why even attempt this? The single Hounds battalion are being used as a tethered goat to lure out the lion. Or are they supposed to be the anvil on which the hammer will strike?
Where is the IS rapid reaction force to hammer them? He has the entire 10th – just the ‘Mechs, 156 … where are they?
As only the Second Kell Hounds (a further 36 Mechs) were sent in …
And then we are expected to believe the 9th are still 45 minutes away (Minimum of 120 Mechs) as they are caught within the Diabolis!
As for the Map problem due to the size of the forces available – you just build a bigger Map by adding more and more for a bigger game - I’ve done it.
Quote:
Sending forces all over the world is the make sure the intel is accurate as well as try to protect other places incase the enemy flees or breaks off some units to destroy something like the factories.
A series of satellites can do the intelligence.
Question – have the Clans ever committed a scorched earth approach in the past when you abide by their rules?
So you use their own rules against them,
Issue a Trial of Possession for the entire planet – attack en-force – and when defeated and offer Hegira, so they just leave. Any captured Clan individuals / equipment – Isorla!
Thus by defeating the clans in one massive concentrated strike you win your objective of getting the world back.
So this is not an IS Raid – this is annihilating a Clan Garrison (and a second front line unit that was not supposed to be there!)
Quote:
You do realize we are talking about clan warriors not mercs. The clans fight short battles.
Yes, and this is the case as noted – you have two short battles – one lasts minutes and then they are entombed.
The other lasts hours before they cut and run.
Quote:
Mercs are so limited on resources a lot of the time, having trained pilots helps keep the bottom line low.
This is the Kell Hounds – Their Col. Is Duke of Arc Royal …..
What we have here is a battle with many unanswered questions – that needs to be discussed.
Why would Cray shut it down? No rules have been broken (to my knowledge) – this is an interesting topic – what was written within a Novel was limited in its scope when compared to what the TO&E is available within the source books – what happened? This is supposed to be a military game with military Novels – why limit the Novels to just a small part of the overall TO&E? If only ‘Mech battles are counted then why do we even have Vehicles / fighters etc within the Game?
How many other questions does this open when it affects the canon History of the Game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/20 05:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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A 20 ton APC going up a trail, verse even a 50 ton tank. Not everything is rated to handle much over 25 tons, so a 50 ton unit would destroy it. Then you have units stranded along the trail. Depending on when, say a small bridge, finally gives out, how do you recover units that made it across? Or fell into what ever it was crossing?
Also, a single shuttle could drop off the APC. They don't want a huge force to alert the clans to what is being done.
Fighting the clans means you don't do V formations or pincers, so you can flank them? No diversions to have their backs towards you for an initial volley?
No tactics, seems to be the case. Just a frontal deathmatch concept seems to be the only tactic in this.
Why would you think there are any satellites left over from any fights on the planet? Not sure about you, but they are not something most forces bring along with them, as they take up space that is better suited for more weapons, armor, ammo and the like. Just one thought of them being used and they would be wiped out by the clans, or even the IS.
Still not getting it thru your head that the IS still did not know what the clans were capable of, or worse. The actual use of the Saber Cat to raze Turtle Bay. Wasn't it before Twycross that the Falcons threatened to use a warship to raze another world? So scorched earth tactics was used once, and threatened a second time. Why would you think otherwise at this point of the invasion? Don't quote end war crap here. This is without the benefit of reading the whole thing after it's done.
Guess the idea that since clans fight short wars, the warriors do NOT need to learn how to fix their own mechs didn't sink in. Even routine work is done by the workers. So clan warriors could not tell you much about how to even change out omnipods, much less how to fix a ERlaser that has been shot up.
There was at least one rule broken. Threadjacking. This was not a topic to start bagging on the developers, or put in the whole concept of they should do this or that. It was asking with the battles fought, did the FS win anything?
Another is keeping real world things out of the threads. So quoting people, or using past battles is violating that rule.
Those that write the novels don't care about what is there. Just to make the heroes seem better. If this was about a tank crew, then they would have included a lot more.
And why have tanks? Really? Pure Logic is why. Who is guarding the worlds and doing all the dirty work? Mechs are the main focus, but they are not the ones doing all the back ground things. It even states, that to hold ground, you need infantry. Ammo carriers aren't mechs, neither are the aircraft used for more then just a few things. So really . Why have tanks is asking, why have humans involved. Just let AI's fight each other.
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Cray
02/05/20 06:41 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Why would Cray shut it down? No rules have been broken (to my knowledge) – this is an interesting topic – what was written within a Novel was limited in its scope when compared to what the TO&E is available within the source books – what happened? This is supposed to be a military game with military Novels – why limit the Novels to just a small part of the overall TO&E?
Because this went off-topic (rule 8), and there's always rule 2 if it's needed to calm down a thread.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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