Requiem
02/08/20 01:55 AM
1.158.235.15
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Is Alexander Kerensky just incompetent or a villain and Tyrant ….
Born 16 December 2700 Died 11 June 2801
Alma-mater: Tharkad University, Nagelring
Profession: Commanding General of the SLDF.
Spouse: Katyusha Lumilova
Blood Children: Nicholas Kerensky (Born 4 May 2764) and Andrey Kerensky (Born 9 November 2766)
Charge:- Dereliction of Duty
In 2751, the then First Lord Simon Cameron died (Murdered), and his eight year old son, Richard Cameron II, becomes First Lord of the Star League.
General Kerensky you were appointed by the five House Lords as Regent and Protector of the Star League for the remainder of Richard’s childhood.
As Regent your duties to the SL are as follows:-
- Appointed to govern because the monarch is a minor;
…. And to the Heir apparent are as follows:-
- Appointed to ensure the upbringing of the minor in a way that they are prepared to take the throne and rule with all due knowledge (including as First Lord his legal responsibilities and abilities), wisdom (Education, Psychology and Social upbringing)
- He would thus require an above average understanding of politics and its capabilities and limitations;
- As this is a Feudal Society the minor will also be required to be brought up with an understanding of military tactics / procedures / capabilities;
- As this is a highly technological society he would have to acquire an above average understanding of how the media works and how to present himself in public and behind a camera to best Communicate with his subjects;
- Be a well rounded individual so that his psychological position is willing to accept the hardships the throne will bring in the future;
- Socially as a ruler he must be able to charm people, get them on his side, have the ability to tell friend from foe;
- When combined all these should produce a Formidable First Lord who can stave off the Machinations of the First Lords as well as any other individuals who may wish to use him for their own ends.
Evidence Kerensky ignored his duties as to the SL State ..
- Sarna.net Wiki Richard Cameron II – “During this time, the high council diluted the First Lord's power.” (As he has a duty to represent Richard’s best interests at all time – and this does not include allowing the House Lords to dilute the First Lord’s Power).
- “When he came of age, his (Richard’s) actions and assassination led to the collapse of the Star League. “
Evidence Kerensky ignored his duties as to Richard’s upbringing …
- Executive Order 156 – Inability to understand the political realities of what was and wasn’t possible;
- Manipulation by Stefan Amaris (inability to tell friend from foe);
- Inability to understand basic military tactics by allowing RWR forces to supplant SLDF within the TH;
- Being a weak and ineffective human being with no real inner strength;
<Nt. 2762 – Richard Cameron comes of age, and becomes the First Lord of the Star League – in the same year Executive Order 156 is passed, and repealed after the House Lords declare it illegal. – if he didn’t know this would not pass demonstrates a level on ineptitude when it comes to his understanding as to the Fist Lord’s power and abilities.>
Clearly the verdict is guilty, Alexander Kerensky’s - your inaction when it came to both the state and Richard allowed the Amaris Civil War to become a reality, and as such the Fall of the SL.
By not stopping the House lords diluting the Power of the First Lord … and you are also guilty of not properly preparing Richard for his future position as First Lord – So yes, you are either inept or guilty of being incompetent when it came to your duties as Regent.
Charge:- Dereliction of Duty
As to his family - Katyusha Lumilova , Nicholas Kerensky (Born 4 May 2764) and Andrey Kerensky (Born 9 November 2766)
Katyusha Lumilova
Upon marrying Alexander in a small private ceremony in 2759 (Whilst he was still Regent to the SL and Richard)
– How did you find the time to court her when his duties as Regent were so onerous?
- How did you sneak around so that the paparazzi and other Houses spies were never to discover this relationship?
The Marriage was kept secret to “protect her identity” – Is this not the complete opposite? The secret made her more vulnerable, whist within in the public eye her security could have been included into that of her husband’s. Or was it kept secret to protect you own Political position as Regent?
Richard would have been 15-16 at this time, and as we have no knowledge as to when his mother Jessica Drillson Died, Katyusha could have been a substitute mother, a stabilizing force, for Richard at this important stage in his life if you had not been so secretive.
Whist Alexander was on combat operations she remained in Moscow, alone and then as a single parent with the Children, couldn’t she have gone with him to a secure facility near his operation zone? Why did you abandon your wife and children on Terra whilst you went to war - wars that were expected to be years long? Why did you just leave your wife and children in the hands of your parents that were both living in Moscow at the same time?
Even during the period between the end of the Amaris Civil War and that of his Exodus you still refused to acknowledge publicly their existence of his wife and his two sons. It was not until they were within the Exodus did his father recognize his family.
Nicholas Kerensky , your eldest son ....
Within Sarna.net Wiki Nicholas Kerensky, he is described as – “he was a sociopath with a troubled childhood that had apparently left him emotionally scarred and with severe psychological issues; he may also have had a genetic disposition since his mother, too, had suffered from psychological issues.”
Why didn’t you provide your son with medical assistance – Post Amaris Civil War – or even during the Exodus? Were you so removed from his son (and your family) that you never noticed or didn't you even care?
In the future your eldest son will use deceit and propaganda as means of manipulation and positively embracing harsh dictatorial rule, where he would stop at nothing to create what he felt was a perfect utopian society: The Clans.
Is it not clear to see that when your son, Nicholas, was finished with the SLDF remnants he had his revenge against you, as his father, for the years of almost constant abandonment – he turned the noble SLDF into an Amaris’ Forces in all but name.
It can also be assumed that not only did he kill his mother but he also killed his younger brother to secure power - what monster did you let loose and never took the time to realize was by you side?
Andrey Kerensky, your youngest son ....
All he ever wanted was your respect, for you to treat him in a manner a father treats his loving son ......
What kind of a father are you that you would, due to the Prinz Eugen incident, (where that ship and eight other ships mutinied and split off from the fleet), you (Aleksander) held / blamed Andery as being partly responsible for the crisis. So you ordered him to serve as part of the boarding party together with 60 marines and headed by Major Elizabeth Hazen who was tasked with recapturing the Prinz Eugen and its small rebel fleet.
You then crippled his soul when you forced him to partake in the subsequent execution of the mutinous officers - you did this - did you even watch the execution? did you see what it did to your son when he was forces to murder anther person in cold blood - standing right in front of him when the light of their eyes went out forever?
And what of your sons relationship .... Sarna.net wiki Andery Kerensky “The relationship between Andery and Nicholas Kerensky was always a cold one, with the elder Kerensky viewing his brother as weak and a disgrace to the family name. For his part, Andery saw Nicholas as an egotistical man with a messiah complex, and resented the fact that their father favoured Nicholas”
Clearly the verdict is guilty, Alexander Kerensky’s - your inaction as a dead beat father - as a tyrannical military leader rather than a loving husband, family man and father brought upon the psychological issues of your wife and your two sons who within the fullness of time would cause more suffering and evil than any that had ever come before. You are responsible for their actions - and thus you are responsible for their creations - "The Clans!"
Operation Exodus
Charges:- Treason, Dereliction of Duty – Cowardice in the face of the enemy - Incitement to Dereliction of Duty of Duty – Desertion, Kidnapping are but a few of the charges laid against you.
First questions .... why did you give up on one empire, the SL, just to form another in the Clam Home Worlds? Were you so afraid that your Messianic image within the IS would be tarnished - the people of the IS would come to know the real you, the Amaris that was within you, the tyrant, the inept statesman (as evidenced when you were Regent)? Were you that scared of the hope people placed in you - that you, the great General, would save them from the darkness to come - if you could just show a little courage?
You swore an oath to protect the SL – but in the end you could no longer face the rigors of war so you used his fame and convinced many others to desert their positions - It was you hidden, and in the dead of night, within a storage room where you convinced your fellow officers to desert their positions – You knew it was illegal you knew it was unethical - why else did you conduct the meeting in a "Storage room" - if it was such a noble venture why not conduct it within the main auditorium of GHQ Building. You knew it was wrong ... why else do it in the middle of the night ... and in such an isolated "storage" building?
You sneaked around in the dead of night and whispered the idea of desertion into your fellow officers ears - you in-sighted Treason!
During your exodus from the IS ... was it not your idea to kidnap miners from worlds you passed so that in the future you could use them as workers to build your empire ....
Then whist on this voyage of the damned .....
You had no destination whatsoever – nearly six million people – from 8 July 2784 - August 2786 he wandered the galaxy ... trapped by your will alone ..... pushing them to higher and higher states of anxiety ... with no relief in sight .... and when finally they could take no more some defied you ... and this is the real issue, not the desertion, .... they defied you, they rejected you as their leader, you the "Great" General, the hero of the Amaris Civil War .... and then when you discover your son's involvement .... the rage you must have felt at this betrayal .... so you sent out your army once more and dragged them back to you and your justice .... but rather than showing understanding that you drove them to this action by keeping them entombed within these ships for nearly two years with no end in sight you ordered their execution …. and you made sure every person and every ship knew one thing ... you were in charge and any disobedience to your rule would end in their death .... it was at this point you became a Tyrant, this was no longer a military action it was an action of establishing a new colony - making a better society for your people and their children and their children .... at this point in time you must have known you failed!
Clearly the verdict is guilty, Alexander Kerensky - your actions within the exodus can only be described as that of the Tyrant ... and not that of a Commanding Officer.
You may have been a Great General …in the beginning ….
But as a Regent you were inept, as a husband and father you were worse …. then as you aged you could no longer face the people who looked to you to save them from the war to come, rather than making the hard decisions you just ran away … trapping 6 million people on a voyage to hell.
Rather than reforming the Star League – you just ran away from “Factional Houses"
So what is your Legacy? Due to you being the absent father for most of your son's early life your eldest decided upon the ultimate revenge upon you - he formed the Clans – to which their rules would one day form a Tyrannical Warrior Culture to which Amaris would recognize as one of his units rather than the noble SLDF units they once were.
So the final verdict – definitely an incompetent Regent and Father; I would not call you a Villain; However I would give you the title of Tyrant when it came to the exodus – as were there not other habitable worlds that were found earlier on that would have allowed for the establishment of a new colony? Did you really have to keep going for two years? Why so long? And why are there no star charts of this time period, what are you hiding by removing all these star charts from this era?
Could be that if they did exist they could be used as evidence as to your tyrannical 2 year voyage to hell!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/08/20 06:18 PM)
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Requiem
02/08/20 11:33 PM
1.158.235.15
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Now, let us continue our investigation as to your itinerary …. Into your career …. and your personal life
2763 - Sarna.net wiki 2763
Taxation Edict of 2763 implemented - Terrorist attacks and revolts.
2764 - Sarna.net wiki New Vandenberg Uprising
“Lord Richard ordered General Aleksandr Kerensky to take charge personally of the situation and reinforce the region with more troops.”
“While in the Periphery, General Kerensky had a meeting with Lord Richard's closest adviser, Stefan Amaris, in 2764 ….”
Sarna.net wiki Camadeierre
“In 2764 the Star League Defense Force launched an operation against a Taurian Freedom Army base located on Camadeierre, acting on intelligence provided to General Aleksandr Kerensky by Stefan Amaris of the Rim Worlds Republic.”
2765 - Sarna.net wiki 2765
Some-time after the 14th April “the New Vandenberg Uprising begins in the Taurian Concordat”.
2767 - Sarna.net wiki New Vandenberg Uprising
“New Vandenburg was also one of the last to be conquered by the SLDF prior to the end of operations in the Periphery in the wake of the coup performed by Stefan Amaris on Terra. New Vandenburg was conquered by the SLDF on the 7th of January 2767, just over three weeks before news of the coup arrived and a ceasefire would be ordered General Aleksandr Kerensky.”
2767 / 8 – Sarna.net wiki Amaris Civil War
Amaris Coup December 26th 2766 – January 31st 2767 Stefan Amaris declares himself Director-General of the Terran Hegemony and leader of the Star League.
We know that Nicholas Kerensky born 4 May 2764 (Conceived late July early August 2763) and we know that Andery Kerensky born November 9th 2766 (Conceived late January early February 2766)
Where was your wife, Katyusha Lumilova, late January early February 2766? (ans:- either in the Periphery or Terra, Moscow)
Was she in the Periphery with you - late January early February 2766?
Then, why did she return to Terra and Moscow, as she was pregnant for a second time?
Was it because Nicholas was 19/20 months old and a new child on the way?
Did she return to Moscow to be with your parents? (were they still alive at this stage?)
Why didn’t you want to keep your pregnant wife reasonably close to hand? – your in command of the SLDF – security and money for a nanny shouldn’t have been a problem.
And then you hear of Amaris’ Coup – how did you feel? If she and your son had just remained with you for just a few more months she and your family would have been safe?
Did you feel it was your fault? – did you push her away …. <how this would have eaten him up!>
However, if she was in Moscow January early February 2766
Andery is not yours!
<Pride / Ego / Masculinity – all will take a battering>
Ramifications / Explanations
Post Amaris Civil War
- You still kept your marriage and ‘your’ sons a secret – could it be because Andrey was not ‘yours’?
Exodus
- In such a ‘tight’ environment, only now do you now have no choice but admit to the fact that you are married and have two sons.
Prinz Eugen incident
- Your disappointment in ‘your’ son – tasked with recapturing the Prinz Eugen and its small rebel fleet …. then you forced him to partake in the subsequent execution of the mutinous officers – could it be because Andrey was not your son?
Relationships
… with Nicholas Kerensky viewing his brother as weak and a disgrace to the family name … because he was only his half brother, and had no right to the Kerensky name.
… it is believed Nicholas set his brother up so that he would be killed in combat … because he was only his half brother, and had no right to the Kerensky name.
… it is believed Nicholas murdered his mother… because she betrayed his father.
<question:- If Alexander Kerensky’s parents were still alive (as they too live in Moscow) surely Amaris would have targeted them as hostages against Kerensky as he did Kurita. So when did they disappear / die?>
<question:- did any Clan scientist ever put Nicholas’ and Andrey’s DNA side by side to look for the best warrior genes and come to a startling revelation (that got them killed!)>
If Andrey is not your son - then what kind of vindictive person does this make you during the Prinz Eugen incident?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/20 01:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. So Kerensky was at fault for Cameron ordering him into the periphery, while the charismatic Amaris was able to sit with him and con Cameron into doing thing he was told not to. Told by lesser people in the scheme of the SLDF. So this is Kerensky's fault. Following direct orders.
So no one knew where the wife and child were at, so it is very possible they were sitting at one of the rally points or even a secretary aboard one of the ships, like a hospital ship.
Now. The Prinz Eugen incident is very much like the middle ages. Where rulers were taught at a very young age that to hold power, you needed to learn how to order someone's death and watch it. History repeating itself.
And since the story of the children isn't written, anything dealing with them outside of print is all supposition. I could some up with several scenarios, and they would be just like your outlook. Not based on anything in writing.
It was stated that the wife was hidden from Amaris forces, though can't remember where it said that at this time. Also, you missed one way that Andrey could be Alexanders legal child and not be with him for the inception. Invetro Fertilization. And that is as far as that goes.
And here is something to ponder. What if the Kerensky line is all from Andrey and not Nicolas? One of the scientist could well have done that out of several issues. Hatred on several fronts being the main one.
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Requiem
02/09/20 04:39 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
So Kerensky was at fault for Cameron ordering him into the periphery, while the charismatic Amaris was able to sit with him and con Cameron into doing thing he was told not to.
Question – what are the duties of a Regent when it comes to the Heir Apparent?
Question – When said Heir Apparent takes the throne and then sends the majority of his loyal military to edge of known space, then invites another realm’s soldiers in to protect him …. What is that called? …. And who is responsible for ensuring the Heir Apparent grew into such a man?
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So no one knew where the wife and child were at, so it is very possible they were sitting at one of the rally points or even a secretary aboard one of the ships, like a hospital ship.
Correct … but the sticking point is they (Katyusha, Nicholas (at 32 months) and Andrey (at 2 months)) must be home on Terra and in Moscow before or on Christmas Day 2766.
So if Andrey was conceived late January / early February then a heavily pregnant Katyusha (for the majority of the trip, Nicholas and Andrey (when he is born) has only has 10/11 months (approx.) to travel from Taurian Space to Terra – so, is this even possible?
Especially as she will have to take public transport – no one in the SLDF knows of her existence – and if he did use a SLDF ship then this is abuse of power ….
Question – what do Medical Professionals suggest as to heavily pregnant women undertaking multiple jumps for what could be the majority of her pregnancy? As I do not think they would be too keen on the idea.
So what would make Katyusha take such a risk with her as yet unborn child?
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The Prinz Eugen incident is very much like the middle ages.
Questions:
What era is this set in? Ans: Star League
What was Alexander’s stared objectives of the Exodus? Ans:
Sarna.net wiki Operation Exodus
“On 14 February, 2784, in a meeting at an empty wooden warehouse on Terra, Kerensky and the rest of the High Command outlined their intentions to over two hundred high-ranking officers, that the heart and soul of the Star League still lived on inside each soldier and that the only way to preserve it was for them to escape the coming storm.”
…. The heart and soul of the Star League … to preserve it ….
With the last firing squad execution the soul of the Star League lay dead, forgotten to time.
Where is the mitigating circumstances ... the empathy?
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And since the story of the children isn't written, anything dealing with them outside of print is all supposition.
Correct, but I have yet to hear another plausible scenario based upon the above canon history.
Please explain why Nicholas would want to convert the SLDF (defenders of an egalitarian society) into the Clans (A totalitarian Society) – Please explain why only warriors are allowed to lead, The Caste system, the loss of surnames, Fostering etc. etc.
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It was stated that the wife was hidden from Amaris forces, though can't remember where it said that at this time
When undertaking a Coup would you allow any ship in or out of the Terran System – or would you keep it all under lock and key to make sure your forces can find everyone on your list so that they can did their own grave?
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Invetro Fertilization
Yes this is a possibility …. However would a man of Alexander Kerensky’s stature (Commanding General of the SLDF and at one stage Regent of the Star League) consider such a procedure? Considering the level of his Ego, I doubt he would have ever considered or accepted this as a possibility.
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What if the Kerensky line is all from Andrey and not Nicolas? One of the scientist could well have done that out of several issues.
How did Andrey describe his brother? …. “an egotistical man with a messiah complex.”
Don’t you think he would made sure his line would prevail, he would make sure the scientists did what they were told to do, and if not their death would be long in pain and suffering?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/20 12:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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So Kerensky is to ignore the orders for him to personally head up the SLDF in order to play baby sitter for Cameron? Being a military man, he would follow the orders of leading the troops by the front lines. Cameron would have had personal guards, tutors and other people to deal with him and his learning about the world. Things Kerensky could teach him. But no. Let's just say he needed to be court martialed for ignoring his direct order to lead the troops.
The context of the Prinz Eugen says why it was like the middle ages. Heirs to the rulers were made to watch executions in order for them to become hardened enough to order them in the future. Treason being one of the first ones that required execution in the middle ages, with cowardice being another.
It was explained why Nicholas made the clans like he did. He believe military protocols would allow them to stay true to the Leagues ideas. A military designed to protect the IS from outside threats being a main one. From what? We might see it in the future. The ability to fight out issues gives the clans a released for the violent tendencies. It, like all forms of government, became corrupt as a few with power decided they wanted it their way. The fact that the military of the SLDF was the focus of the exodus, this would make logical sense.
The warriors coming into power was from the fact that once they started using their military might, they found the other castes couldn't fight back. So it got shifted until it is what it is today. Given the fact the entire basis of the home worlds was to create and support the military, might well have had a large part in this. The fostering was to find the best of the best. As genetic breeding by nature is slow and unreliable, the use of Iron Wombs came about. You can control how many and from what parentage they come from. I would assume they had DNA modification going on as well.
Now remember your time travel issue the next time you suggest that forces from deep in the FS could reach the clan front line is a few weeks. Command circuits can only hold so many ships, depending on the jumpships used. So full RCTs? Not at all.
There is no where written that Alexander did not take off a couple of weeks, in which time he met with his wife. So that is another possibility. Even heading back to a major supply point to check on some bottle neck, could have been the excuse for him to be there. Then a simple dinner off the base, and... well. If you can't figure that one out, there isn't much that I can do.
The I will assume the he would be Nicholas in making sure his line would prevail statement. With that, how do you know by looking at a vial, what is actually in there, and more importantly WHO's material is in there. For all we know, one of the scientists decided he was the better choice. But that is not something to discuss. The fact is, Nicholas would have to take the word of what is on the container. Though at this point, the fact of Andrey being Alexanders son would be solved. Either the DNA was almost an exact match to Nicholas, or had about half match his mother, and little to nothing to Alexander.
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Requiem
02/09/20 02:48 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
So Kerensky is to ignore the orders for him to personally head up the SLDF in order to play baby sitter for Cameron?
Sarna.net wiki Commanding General – List of Commanding Generals / Admirals
General Aleksandr Kerensky 2738 - <Star League Dissolved>
Appointed at a very young age?
Sarna.net wiki Aleksandr Kerensky
“The five House Lords gathered on Terra and appointed General Aleksandr Kerensky as Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF, and as Regent and Protector of the Star League for the remainder of Richard's childhood.”
His EXTENDED duties at that time included that of being the Regent for the eight year old Richard Cameron and Protector of the Star League.
Thus it is his duty to ensure the young Cameron grows into a respected First Lord.
However, it is clear that he completely ignored the young boy’s upbringing – leaving him vulnerable and alone – easy prey for a man such as Stefan Amaris, who showed him kindness when he needed it the most, and in so doing was able to stage a Coup.
Here is where Aleksandr’s personality and work ethic becomes evident <something that the First Lords were Hoping for in the beginning?> at 38 and still a bachelor – single minded drive to rise through the ranks too quickly?
• Constantly working for the betterment of the SLDF at the expense of anything and everything around him.
• Could this have been the House Lords plan from the start – they knew he would make a poor and ineffective regent for the Star League and for young Richard.
• Thus when the House Lords implement new laws to curtail the First Lords power – he takes no interest!
• He assigns people as tutors to a young Richard – but he takes no real interest in the boy! So when he takes the throne he is a poor imitation of what a true First Lord should be.
To have been a true Regent and Protector of the Realm he should have resigned his commission in the SLDF and taken up his true duties as Regent and Protector of the Ream.
In not doing so we get to see the true Kerensky and what he viewed as important – the SLDF.
In not being more attentive to the young Richard, in not preparing him adequately for the rigors of the throne, it is Aleksandr fault the Star League fell!
Aleksandr, in my opinion, is a very blinkered man when it comes to “his” SLDF, he works too hard (workaholic) at the expense of a social life and it is quite clear he was promoted way too early for the position of General (38) and whilst he was still a bachelor! – The position requires a more seasoned hand on the tiller as well as a person who has a family, not a workaholic who cannot see the people around him.
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The context of the Prinz Eugen says why it was like the middle ages. Heirs to the rulers were made to watch executions in order for them to become hardened enough to order them in the future.
So we are now to assume that Aleksandr is the First Emperor of the SLDF? – He drove them to mutiny and then rather than recognizing his own faults he silences his only detractors – permanently!
He gave up one empire for that of another?
It is quite clear, here and now, with these executions is where Aleksandr put down the old girl called the Star League with a firing squad!
He should been called Aleksandr “Bull” Kerensky!
Please remember this is not the Middle Ages this is supposed to be a voyage to preserve the Star League! – It isn’t until 2nd / 3rd Succession Wars do we see the return of Middle Age values and beliefs …. and in the Clans far more earlier.
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It was explained why Nicholas made the clans like he did. He believe military protocols would allow them to stay true to the Leagues ideas.
What are Star League Values?
A Totalitarian run government …… where only 0.01% of the population decide what the other 99.99% are allowed to do?
A government run by only one Caste? …. How is this egalitarian?
Justice – where is the Justice when a warrior can do anything they want and the rest must just accept it as their lot in life?
The destruction of the family unit / identity by removing last names and then with the idea that when a child reaches 13 they should be separated from they parents and sent to work …. An idea that comes from the industrial revolution and the most destitute of people …. Suggest reading about Peterloo Massacre.
A Caste system where you, your current family and all future family members are locked into permanently – with no real chance for advancement due to the poor education they receive. …. How is this like the Star League when they promoted free education and freedom of information?
Do the people within the Caste System have freedom of movement, freedom of association, free speech even? … how is this like that of the Star League?
The Clans values and principles are the complete polar opposite of that of the Star League!
Can even one Star League Value be shown to exist within the Clans?
This is the fate of their humanity due to a father and son’s madness …
Protection – when the IS is 6 months away and no one within the IS knows where they are – Paranoia is a more correct assessment …..
Release Violent Tendencies – do we now find ourselves within ancient Rome and the Coliseum?
Government – doomed to fail from the start unless every person has an equal voice and representation.
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The fact that the military of the SLDF was the focus of the exodus, this would make logical sense.
The warriors coming into power was from the fact that once they started using their military might, they found the other castes couldn't fight back.
Since when did the Star League espouse the values of the petty tyrant and the idea that might makes right? ... did it work with the Periphery states in the Long run?
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The fostering was to find the best of the best. As genetic breeding by nature is slow and unreliable, the use of Iron Wombs came about. You can control how many and from what parentage they come from. I would assume they had DNA modification going on as well.
Please refer to Germany WW2 – the idea of the superman – Ubermensch.
Please refer to Germany WW2 – the idea of the ‘racially pure’ and ‘healthy’ within the Lebensborn.
Two ideas that were very readily accepted by the Clans and into their society.
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There is no where written that Alexander did not take off a couple of weeks, in which time he met with his wife.
Yes, I agree it is a possibility, however it does not fit with the idea of him being a workaholic. (as noted above)
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The I will assume the he would be Nicholas in making sure his line would prevail statement.
Print out of DNA – machine should be just that simple – put in sample – and results are printed out – then even a layman should be able see if there are any differences.
Plus Nicholas was not shy of inflicting torture to get his own way (Betrayal of Ideals) so yes I can be sure his DNA sample is correct.
Plus any irregularity he would have made sure would disappear – he is his father’s son …. Complete megalomaniac.
Edited by Requiem (02/09/20 02:59 PM)
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ghostrider
02/09/20 04:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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The military is the military. If they are to maintain order, they are required to remove those that turn against the system. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.
And I don't see him leaving one empire. The SL was not his. Never would be either. And if the military's regs makes him an emperor, that I guess he was one since the time he was promoted.
Being a regent is not the same as being a parent. He was not there to teach the boy anything. There were tutors and other teachers there to do this, as well as guards and such to keep him safe. It was his job to make sure there were people doing so.
This will get into real politics slightly, so I take responsibility for it. Now with that. Maybe you should actually look at all the nations in the world. They are ruled by a very small amount of people, and the rest get stuck obeying things. Depending on where you live, you have laws that differ from someone living a few thousand miles away. Why would that change in the future?
The flight and starting of the pentagon worlds had to be a military dictatorship. Otherwise you would get nothing done as everyone would say everyone else needs to do all the work. Where evolving into a democracy should have happened once things were settled, but that was stopped by the clan civil war.
Mock the violent tendencies all you want. There are sports today that do the same thing. Boxing and mixed martial arts come to mind off the bat. I would also suggest not getting near a mosh pit. So the middle ages never ended in some respects.
I guess the fact that as new leaders come into power, some of the old ways get changed. Circumstances are another thing that forces change.
And I doubt the idea of Iron Wombs was readily accepted into the society. Only the warriors would be able to add to it. The rest would become forgotten, even though some achievements were greater then the military winning a battle.
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Requiem
02/09/20 11:36 PM
1.158.235.15
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The military is the military. If they are to maintain order, they are required to remove those that turn against the system.
This is a WW1 understanding …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_French_Army_mutinies
“The new commander, General Philippe Petain, restored morale by talking to the men, promising no more suicidal attacks, providing rest for exhausted units, home leave, and moderate discipline. He held 3,400 courts martial; 554 mutineers were sentenced to death but only 26 were actually executed.”
Even Petain understood the idea of extenuating circumstances …. so why not Kerensky?
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And I don't see him leaving one empire. The SL was not his. Never would be either.
… and yet how was he viewed once they reached their destination and from then on?
Sarna.net wiki Aleksandr Kerenky – Petagon Worlds
“…..came upon five marginally habitable worlds …. Kerensky and his followers tried to re-create a new Star League in Exile as best as possible. However within a year, cracks were beginning to form along cultural lines and soon the Pentagon Worlds were entering what would be later called the Exodus Civil War, a state of anarchy and widespread devastation eerily similar to the early Succession Wars affecting the Inner Sphere
Questions –
What were those worlds, in which he used to restore his fleets water and food stocks. like in comparison to these “marginally habitable worlds”?
Did you, ‘General’ Kerensky, realize you went too far?
And then when the people of the fleet rejected you, rejected the New Star League, how did you feel?
How did you feel when you realized your Exodus was pointless – you ran from the possibility of a civil war within the Inner Sphere – Only to bring the seeds of that Civil War with you, with the start of the Exodus Civil War?
Did you come to realize that it may have been better if you had not deserted and attempted to hold the TH together?
The worlds did not require re-colonization, full medical everything – were you just scared of what you perceived the next war to come would be like?
Or were you just scared or frustrated that you could not get the First Lords to come to a consensus?
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Being a regent is not the same as being a parent.
This is true, it is not the same as being a parent ….. IT IS FAR MORE ONEROUS, if you stuff up with your child the damage is usually limited. However, if you stuff up an Hair to an Empire … you are putting that entire empire at risk – every person, everything, will feel the mistakes you made with an incompetent Heir Apparent ….
And this is what happened here … YOU, Kerensky …. made too many mistakes with Richard – YOU turned him into a weak willed incompetent ruler and YOU must stomach the consequences of your inaction …. YOU are responsible for the fall of the Star League, not Amaris, ….. YOU ARE!
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It was his job to make sure there were people doing so.
It is quite clear he was incompetent at this as well!
Please consider reading - https://www.nps.gov/inde/upload/Thoughts-on-Government-John-Adams-2.pdf
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The flight and starting of the pentagon worlds had to be a military dictatorship.
Sorry, but I disagree … there are many other models that could have been considered – why go for the worst possible solution first? Nicholas asn his desire for absolute power is the only answer!
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Where evolving into a democracy should have happened once things were settled
How? …. When the rulers are all military and no one else has access to weapons … and their Messiah said this is the one and only way! So unless you can kill off every warrior at the same time, you are going to have problems. …. Again Nicholas ensuring his warriors could never be deposed!
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Mock the violent tendencies all you want. There are sports today that do the same thing.
Please … where are the gladiator games to the death?
Question – How does this compare to the 17th Century and before Lacrosse to the Clans version where you have Elementals, Mechwarriors and aerospace pilots all on the same team at the same time …
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changed. Circumstances
Changes can be made to each clans internal society … However the rules for the Warriors would be near inviolate / quasi religious doctrine – Dogma! Again by the hand of Nicholas.
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Iron Wombs
Restricted Tech … Warrior Caste Only!
Andery saw Nicholas as an egotistical man with a messiah complex – I would also say he wanted to live forever – and he got his wish in that of his children via his DNA to be used for all time!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/10/20 02:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe Alexander was unable to take care of a child. There are some that have no skills at all in this area.
Deserting with a multi billion c-bill ship as well as the war machines stored in them might have a factor in this. There is a slew of things that could be, with the main one being Kerensky did not tolerate desertion.
I guess suggesting Kerensky was an emperor of the SL or the pentagon worlds was a misstatement on your end.
You disagree that military rule during the exodus and starting to build new homes was right? There was no room for debate. Things had to get done, and that wouldn't happen under many other forms of government. And as they left the IS in a military rule, why would that change as the got out of the IS?
So Nicholas was at fault for national racism that tore the SLDF apart? And with this, what would be the solution to it? He removed what he could from the warring factors and started the clans. Had the civil war not started, there would not be any clans. Then again, if the house lords were not doing everything they could to rule, while making sure the SLDF, or the Hegemony bore the brunt of it.
As for lord Cameron, he may well have been the spoiled brat that got mad when he didn't get his way. So those dealing with him didn't do what they needed to, as they feared what he would do. But that would mean Kerensky wasn't the evil that tore apart the SLDF.
Evolving into another form of government should have started before the civil war. But again. This detracts from the rant of who is responsible for all the bad things in the universe.
Where do you come up with having to have gladiators fighting to the death to have violent tendencies? This is yet another thing that is making me wonder how much you understand about the game world. But if you need one example. the arenas scattered around the IS tends to have fights to the death. Mechs that is. Oh sorry. Those aren't gladiators.
Maybe you need to look over the beginnings of the clans. The 5 castes had the same rights. It was after Nicholas died, that they started to move towards military rule. But then that has to be Nicholas's fault as we all know people don't become corrupt when they have the advantage over others.
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Requiem
02/10/20 04:46 AM
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Maybe Alexander was unable to take care of a child.
On the balance of probability, given all available information, I believe you are correct.
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Kerensky did not tolerate desertion.
Ironic much? …. Given his exodus is desertion …. So, when he orders it, it is a noble and valiant effort to preserve the Star league ….. however, if anyone else attempts to desert him (The Great General) that is high treason and they must be put before a firing squad. <Narcissistic?>
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I guess suggesting Kerensky was an emperor of the SL or the pentagon worlds was a misstatement on your end.
Correct, however like Rome’s Emperors, Nicholas made sure to beatify his father upon his death …. and, in so doing made himself the son of one who was ‘beatified’. <Did Narcissistic traits run in the family?>
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You disagree that military rule during the exodus and starting to build new homes was right?
Correct, the military had NO right to rule!, what is being established is a new colony – the people as a whole must determine how they wish to live in this new phase of their lives.
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So Nicholas was at fault for national racism that tore the SLDF apart?
No, The Star League died (for the most part) during the Exodus, the Exodus Civil War is just the final gasps for air – Nicholas just threw her into the coffin and buried her for good, making sure she could never be resurrected.
It is obvious that those who departed upon the Exodus were not the best and brightest.
Suggested reading - https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/how-did-hitler-happen
Nicholas at this point is using the same “spell” Hitler did …. Resulting in the same outcome for the people.
Solution – Democracy would be a good first step – someone other than Nicholas rising up and resurrecting the true Star League (though to do this they would have had to Kill Nicholas off prior to or during his second Exodus prior to his thoughts becoming known to anyone else!)
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Had the civil war not started, there would not be any clans.
Correct – had the people formed a true egalitarian Star League Nicholas and his views would have been ignored <probably to the point he was shunned by most people as being odd>
If you want to make the argument of reforming the Star League, post Amaris Coup, there is only one viable path ….. for kerensky
Terra (like the Vatican) becomes an independent state belong to no Great House (an independent state unto itself – All Great Houses military are forbidden within the Terran System even the SLDF are forbidden except for when their Commander is called upon to report to the High Council;
A New Star League Capitol is established upon Terra;
Every Great House’s ruler will move to this city (together with their entourage);
The post of First Lord is to be removed for all time;
The High Council will rule the Star League from this date forward where each candidate has one vote (as per previous votes). Refer sarna.net wiki Star League – High Council; and
The SLDF – they will remain a military force – they will be controlled by the High Council – Though their remit is to keep the peace between the Great Houses – if it appears two great Houses are about to go to war they will step in and separate the two Houses Military (By force if necessary). Also if a House Lord is found Guilty of a War Crime (for example) the Star League can be tasked with brining that House Lord to justice.
(It would be hoped in the future that Periphery Realms Ruler may one day be elevated to a position on the High Council – when their economy (size) demands it.)
In my opinion this is the only path that Kerensky could have suggested to maintain peace in the Inner Sphere. He could have even forced it’s establishment by holding the House Lords by force, then just informing the people of the IS that this is the new system and they have no choice but to just accept this new system. Then once it is up and running, resign’s his position!
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As for lord Cameron, he may well have been the spoiled brat
Discipline him! – until you get the desired result – explain it very carefully when he gets to be about 15 as to what will happen to him if he is not a good ruler, he may resent you for a couple of years however if he has any maturity he will come to understand why you did what you did to make him the best him you could in the given time you had.
This is why Kerensky when made Regent must take a leave of absence from the SLDF – he must be with the boy proving him the most stable and “normal” life he can (within reason) to produce a well adjusted and formidable First Lord.
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Where do you come up with having to have gladiators fighting to the death to have violent tendencies?
How many survived a circle of equals etc. – or a trial to obtain their Blood-Name? … similar to gladiators becoming a Rudiarius and winning their rudis?
Also how violent could the Clan’s idea of Lacrosse get?
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Maybe you need to look over the beginnings of the clans. The 5 castes had the same rights.
Were they allowed to vote like the warriors were …. Were they allowed to have their own representative within the Hall?
So all castes should have a Khan and sa-Khan for each Clan and all of these representatives should then be allowed to participate making laws, governing people etc – so this will then mean that the leader of most of the 20 Clans may not be a Warrior, they may come from one of the other castes!
Nicholas preferred ho have his foot on people’s neck so they knew who was in charge!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/10/20 11:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Desertion? The SLDF died before Kerensky left. It died the day the house lords voted to remove him from protector. Everyone knew the war was coming, yet a few choose to ignore it for a little too long. The FS paid for that ignorance in the first war. But the question is, how do you desert an entity that no longer exists? To my knowledge he served the SL, not the Hegemony.
Why stop with just Terra? Why not declare most, if not all, of the Hegemony as off limits?
And since the League failed, to you really think the house lords would come to, much less stay on Terra? They would be hostages before the end of the week, and that isn't saying the military would be doing so. Also, their butts not being in the firing line, would have caused even more destruction, as they were 'safe'.
Do you think the house lords would agree to a new SL? They wanted full control themselves. They would never agree to someone else being in power. So that idea would fail due to their egos.
I don't think peace at this time would be possible. The lure of ruling it all was too great.
I also think that if the SLDF tried to intervene, they would have died as the house they were defending did. In a nuclear firestorm. The SLDF would have to protect all the borders, and that would have made strikes on Terra that much more likely. Assassination of Alexander would be the order of the day, so the 'great' rulers could sway the SLDF to serve them.
So the clans had ways to fight without it being to the death, and releasing the violent tendencies? Wow. that is what I said. I couldn't tell you how many survived, as I don't have all the information to each one. Not all were to the death. If they were, then each clan would have fallen apart as each warrior would soon hold a complete hatred for anything in the clans, including their own. They would be in an eternal warfare with the other units, maybe even those in the same Trinary/Binary.
To my knowledge all the castes had the same rights when the clans first started. The warriors took those rights away quickly, then they realized the other castes couldn't stand up to them.
Now wether Nicholas excellarated that is the most likely question.
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Requiem
02/10/20 06:42 PM
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The SLDF died before Kerensky left. It died the day the house lords voted to remove him from protector.
Major General Lauren Hayes (1st Commander of the ComStar Armed Forces)
When you, Aleksandr Kerensky, deserted your post
At your behest, we see proof of Incitement to Dereliction of Duty once more –at your request Lauren too deserted her post, taking her 151st and becoming ComStar’s military.
During Operation Silver shield all Non-ComStar forces on Terra were eliminated – and because of your perfidy, Lauren fired on and killed allied forces – the last SLDF as well as any House units were eliminated upon the face of Terra in 72 hours of combat.
Any other loyal remaining SLDF forces within the IS would be destroyed shortly thereafter.
YOU Kerensky are responsible for these desertions and YOU are responsible for what should have been allied forces firing on each other …..
Thus the only remaining SLDF forces (who at the beginning still retain a vestige of the SL spirit) are within the Exodus.
Their spirit dies the same day as the Prinz Eugen incident firing squad.
<Kerensky if you were so old and tired and could no longer fulfill your duty, why did you not hand it over to one who could – such as Major General Lauren Hayes – with making her the next CO of the SLDF you knew that she would have done all she could to hold the SL together!– Were you afraid that if you gave ‘your’ position to another they would be remembered as a greater General than you? – is this why you left? Your pride, Your place in History, Your fear ….. do you think she could have kept the Star League alive, but in a reduced size, such as in the former TH?>
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….. how do you desert an entity that no longer exists? …..
The Star League is still thought to exist by some even after the exodus leaves the IS …. as why would Kurita declare himself First Lord over an empire that no longer existed (at that time)? …..
<Side Note:- For the Great Houses they are squabbling over a position that can never be recovered …. as it is clear, no one House has the necessary forces to win at the start of the 1st SW.
Did no Great House run the figures through their war computers?
So why not set up the above SL (and then start a mass reinforcement program) and when you do have the forces necessary then attack – and at the same time subvert the remaining SLDF to your side?
But this would change the overarching premise of the story from ‘Mech battles to Political (RPG) with the few Battles now and then.>
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Why stop with just Terra? Why not declare most, if not all, of the Hegemony as off limits?
Politics – the House Lords could (politically) accept Terra being off limits. I doubt they would accept the whole of the TH. Even Kerensky should be able to understand this.
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And since the League failed, to you really think the house lords would come to, much less stay on Terra?
At this stage the League has not failed – the position of First Lord is gone – and each House Lord has a vote to rule. But what is most advantageous is that all the House Lords are in one place – they can be watched I can play this ‘pretense’ game of a ruling council till that time – and when “My” forces are large enough I can strike – I can easily kill all the other lords in one strike and take the throne in one hit! (…. What every House Lord is thinking now?)
Ie. Keep your friends close but keep your enemies even closer! ….. Caesar, et tu Brute?
It would have pleased Kerensky no end that the SL was ongoing. But the seeds for a second political Coup are there!
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Do you think the house lords would agree to a new SL?
You need to put it in a way they believe it is their idea, and that they will have more power and wealth as a council lord than if they were fighting a war where, do the similar number of units, could be ongoing for years to come with no end in sight.
They all should realize they need a bigger army to win so they all need time to build.
And in the interim, time can be wasted on the council – plus you can obtain very good IS wide PR whist on the Councils – as you will need this when you are the next First Lord!
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They wanted full control themselves. They would never agree to someone else being in power. So that idea would fail due to their egos.
How do you get full control when your military is not the biggest and the best – computer scenarios should indicate a stale-mate.
You need time to build, you need a good IS wide PR – you need t keep the other lords close at hand (to watch and ease of killing them (night of the long knives) when you stage your coup.
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I don't think peace at this time would be possible. The lure of ruling it all was too great.
I disagree, it is possible …. And they will be ruling just not on their own (Council format as they have since the beginning of the SL).
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I also think that if the SLDF tried to intervene, they would have died as the house they were defending did. In a nuclear firestorm.
Doubtful, at the end of the Amis Coup they were still way larger than any single House – and have they not gone through a nuclear war with Amaris’ forces where as the House units are all Green as Grass – thus they also have the experience factor over the House Units.
If they have their own facilities to rebuild then every House unit will find they are the top dog on the block!
Plus wouldn’t you be afraid that if your House Started a war the SLDF as well as the House you attacked could join forces and destroy your house?
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The SLDF would have to protect all the borders.
No they do not have to do this at all – they are not border guards, they are the SL’s guard dogs, and as such they would remain within the TH until called upon the House Lords Council to intervene – Do you really think any House would allow this? Small numbers – not a problem – en mass, no way!, - This is a point every Ghreat House could agree upon (Remember the Council is now in overall charge of the SLDF)
Also having the SLDF close by would reassure every House Lord that any Coup attempt by another House Lord is unlikely – it would give them a sense of security whilst on Terra.
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Assassination of Alexander would be the order of the day, so the 'great' rulers could sway the SLDF to serve them.
Don’t need to assassinate him, …. Refer President Truman relieving MacArther of duties ….. Truman, “Give him a ticket tape parade! … They will forget him in a week.” ….. and they did, and they will also with Kerensky.
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…. Bloodnames …..
How many last pairs fighting for a Bloodname would have to kill their rival to take the name? given how prized they were I believe the majority would end in the death.
Remember the rules are there to keep their ‘violet’ tendencies in check …. Until they are needed.
Nicholas would have made sure of that …. Otherwise he could never have felt secure in the position of ilKhan (sooner or later a young gun would have killed him off and he can’t have that – need rules to keep the dogs in line as it were).
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To my knowledge all the castes had the same rights when the clans first started.
Not even close …. as were they allowed to vote? did they have any say whatsoever in the governance of the of their Clan?
Refer sarna,net wiki Clan Council and Grand Council
“A Clan Council comprises all of the Bloodnamed warriors of a Clan and acts as its governing body.”
“The Grand Council is the supreme governing body of the Clans to which it can issue decrees applicable to all. Each Clan is represented by its Khan and saKhan”
Though,
Sarna.net wiki Clan Diamond Shark
Clan Sea Fox we see …… “While adopting the Clan Caste System as a way of giving every person a meaningful role to play in society, the "lesser" castes would not exist solely to support the warriors but all would be treated as equals (and yet still not allowed to vote within a Clan Council!). The bonds between castes would be further strengthened by allowing a level of freedom of information and association not seen in any of the other Clans.”
Sarna.net wiki Clan Wolf
Clan Wolf … “remained in the forefront of new developments and economic expansion. This was thanks in part to the fact that the Wolves allowed their civilian castes a measure of freedom unseen in most other Clans, granting them the opportunity to explore and create.”
Note:- a measure of freedom does not mean the right to represent their Caste on the Clan Council!
As for the others …. “lesser” castes exist solely to support the warriors.
Sarna.net wiki Clan Smoke Jaguar
“ …. some workers made the population rise in a general insurrection, fueled by histories of torture and rape by some of the Jaguar warriors.”
“….vast damage to the civilian infrastructure, and the jaguars refused to assist the civilians that had been rendered homeless.”
“ …. When a group of "terrorists" sought refuge in a apartment complex, refusing to surrender, the Jaguars began a systematic bombardment of the block, causing its collapse and killing more than 80 civilians.”
“ …. The success of the Smoke Jaguars' military endeavors only furthered the discrimination the ruling warrior caste directed towards not only their own civilians but freeborns as well, until even their very existence was scorned. “
“ …. the Londerholm Revolt. In the wake of that bloody massacre Khan Ian Moon formally removed what little measure of self-governance the civilian castes had, placing absolute authority in the hands of the warriors.”
Refer … Women’s Suffrage Movement.
Nicholas would never allow, other than a Warrior, the right to be in charge …. His personality would never allow it, it is just beyond his comprehension that other Castes should have the right over their own lives … they are his serfs and they will remain as such!
Whilst in Moscow I think Nicholas got a hold of Romanov History books and came to idolize the Romonov way of life … the lord …. the serf …. and when he had the chance he made this system real (in the form of the Clans).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/10/20 10:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Some think the SL died when Amaris killed Cameron.
Claiming the throne to the SL would be a symbolic gesture, making sure the others bowed down to him. As he tore thru the FS, it would become a symbol of his might. The other lords just ignored him for the most part, and did their plans.
So the house lords could seize TH worlds just because? And you suggest this is allowable to the SLDF forces? Isn't that abandoning their duties? No. They might give up a few worlds, but not all except Terra. I would say at least 2 jumps from Terra minimum. But even that sounds like selling out.
Again. You think the house lords would come to stay on Terra? It is a definite hostage trap. The only way they might is if they get the first lord title and command of the SLDF forces. Otherwise, they would be stupid to even think about it.
You gain full control when you become the first lord. Your forces aren't needed to be the biggest, as the First Prince controls the SLDF. When they become your forces, then you stomp out the others that resist. Part of why the claim to the position had to be stated. Otherwise, others might start to think you don't want it.
Interesting that when I suggested the SLDF get another house or two to attack anyone that hits the SLDF, you said it would never happen, yet now you are suggesting it. Which answer is the one you want to stick with?
And yet the clan warriors had trials of position for what mechs they wanted to use. Bloodnames, as suggested before, is one that normal, but not always, ends in death of one or both. A wrecked unit, or knocked out of a circle of equals for hand to hand, was enough to declare a winner. The 'officials' would not try hard to keep the death from happening, but it has happened.
Though the Star League officially disbanded in 2781, Aleksandr Kerensky would spend the next two years shuttling between the Great Houses in an attempt to salvage the situation. He finally abandoned this effort by August of 2783 and began work on a plan he hoped would at least preserve the spirit of the League.
Interesting how the time line says the SL was officially disbanded before Kerensky even thought of leaving. Guess that shuts down the abandonment argument.
Edited by ghostrider (02/10/20 10:14 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 12:03 AM
1.158.235.15
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Some think the SL died when Amaris killed Cameron.
and yet the people still had hope, Kerensky would save them, the House Lords would come around …..
and when push came to shove Kerensky deserted the IS and the people who had faith in him ….
As for a symbolic gesture, taking all the House Lords would be a good first step when they arrive on Terra to discuss the future …
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So the house lords could seize TH worlds just because?
With the main fleet of the SLDF garrisoned within the TH? As well as their remit is to stop all wars – even the forceful acquisition of the TH.
Each house may have a considerable force but even at the end of the Amaris Coup the SLDF was superior to any one House.
I would also like to point out why they would attack now? If the aim is to become the next First Lord and every house has adapted a strategy of an arms race so that they can ‘quickly’ conquer the IS it will be a decade or two before any one House will be ready to take on the SLDF as well as any other House in a War to take the IS.
Also Kerensky would have had to retire at this stage – so we now have a new SLDF Commander,
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You think the house lords would come to stay on Terra? It is a definite hostage trap.
Yes, and they will come! And yes they know it is a trap …. But to allay fears and to watch your enemies you must play the game! And for the next 20 years (or so) they must play “happy Star League” so that they can increase the number of pieces on the board, and they then have to get their pieces in place for the war to come.
Remember … you may say you have the Title of First Lord, but that does not mean the SLDF will obey (Amaris learnt this the hard way!)… you need time to get your people inside and corrupt the SLDF from the inside out - to your way of thinking!
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the First Prince controls the SLDF
What would happen if all four remaining Houses went against the FS and the SLDF at the same time?
Just having one House and the SLDF will never be enough – at the bare minimum you will need two houses plus the SLDF to make a run for the Throne and the title of First Lord.
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Interesting how the time line says the SL was officially disbanded before Kerensky even thought of leaving. Guess that shuts down the abandonment argument.
Correct, hope lives eternal in the attempt to salvage the situation.
The problem is that by this stage Kerensky (now 81) is past it, he has been the CO of the SLDF for 43 years – and I would suspect the longer this is going on (his attempt to re-forge the SL) the worse his public standing is with civilians (the military – his base still have respect for him). So by the end of the 2 years no civilians have any faith in him … so rather than finding a new CO of the SLDF the public could have faith in, he just up and deserted.
With news of his desertion the people of the IS would have then burnt effigies of him in the street! Such as their disgust in him by this stage!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 11:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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With the main fleet of the SLDF garrisoned within the TH? As well as their remit is to stop all wars – even the forceful acquisition of the TH.
Really? This was saying that SLDF would not take just Terra, but other worlds in the TH, possibly trying to keep it all. Yet it was suggested only Terra was the world they would keep. So which is it? Just Terra or the whole TH?
The idea that the house lords would come to live on Terra without controlling it is one point that I will say is utterly wrong. There is no way they would stay, or even visit at this point in history. To do so, would be signing over their realms to the SL. Their egos would not allow it at all, even if they had a slightest idea they would not be taken or killed immediately.
The first prince was meant as the leader of the SL, not the FS.
But there is a major contradiction to the forces available. How is it the SLDF had forces far superior to the other house, yet if they sided with one house, they could not do anything without a second house assisting them?
Don't you remember what you wrote? It seems these contractionary statements are becoming the norm.
His age may have had something to do with his decision, but nothing like all the house lords refusing to even bother trying to keep or get the SL back on track.
Kerensky had to know that the only way to do this is to take the realms on, and that would end in utter failure. Not because the SLDF didn't have to forces to defeat them, but trying to garrison all those worlds would be impossible with just SLDF forces. And given what happened with the Amaris war, nukes would be the norm.
His frustration with them probably started when they refused to help take down the periphery realms that each wanted removed. All the lives lost to their egos, and now, it has come to it's logical conclusion. The SL was dead, and none of the house lords wanted anything to do with it, if they weren't the leader of it. Not even a council would work, as they didn't want it before it was disbanded. Or did that fact get changed in a future retcon as well?
The outcome was a foregone conclusion, but the treachery of Widowmaker Khan Jason Karrige was revealed by the ilKhan, and Franklin Hallis received the justice of slaying him before he was defeated by Star Colonel Ferris Ward.
This seems to argue that Nicholas was able to hide the actions of Widowmaker, as it says HE revealed the plot.
Retcon?
Edited by ghostrider (02/11/20 12:18 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 04:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Yet it was suggested only Terra was the world they would keep. So which is it? Just Terra or the whole TH?
They are not taking either ….
Terra is an independent state – access to this system is by order of the High Council.
Many worlds within the TH were utilized as Fleet Staging grounds before deployment - ie. 20th Fleet was staged above New Earth.
The SLDF bases are being rebuilt to house the remnants of the SLDF – The TH is still a part of the SL
Thus the Admiralty are using these worlds for Logistical purposes.
The Fleet is acting as a security force.
They are not taking the TH by forceful acquisition - this is where they are garrisoned / stationed.
Prior to the Amaris coup the Director-General was in charge (that of Richard Cameron II)
With his death and the subsequent transition of power the Terran Hegemony is now ruled by the High Council.
So politically – Each individual High Council Member rules their own realm with their own military.
However, collectively (as a group) the High Lord Council rules the TH (Important decisions will be made by democratic principles – one House one vote) – Day to Day ruling of every world is via each world’s independent government – and within this area the military is the SLDF (a force not aligned to any one House).
This provides each House Lord on Terra security from rival Houses – any military adventurism toward Terra will require them getting through the TH and the SLDF first, as it was pre Amaris Coup. But this time NO military from any external House will be allowed beyond the TH border – security for the TW will remain with the SLDF.
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The idea that the house lords would come to live on Terra without controlling it is one point that I will say is utterly wrong. There is no way they would stay, or even visit at this point in history.
Sorry but I disagree – they will live on Terra when required and when required to go home they can do so.
They are not signing over their realms to the SL – their realms will still remain independent. It is just the central TH is now under control of the entire Grand Council – and is being protected by the SLDF.
As for their Egos – yes there will be tantrums within the Grand Council – however militarily, until a state has an army that can take on at least two rival houses and the SLDF at the same time any military adventurism is doomed to failure. War is a very risky business (Refer to Elizabeth I policy re war). So the best course of action is to form an alliance(s) build your forces and when ready then attack.
This is the political game for the IS arena – post Amaris Coup. To go straight to war is M.A.D. (mutually assured destruction – as per original canon story – which is quite ludicrous).
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The first prince was meant as the leader of the SL, not the FS.
Post Amaris Coup – there IS NO first person of the SL – there is only a group OF council of members who each have an equal power – one vote)
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How is it the SLDF had forces far superior to the other house, yet if they sided with one house, they could not do anything without a second house assisting them?
In Theory - The SLDF will assist the defender against the aggressor state – or they could just hammer both of the Houses – so as to return them both to their side of the border.
In Actuality – Like the UN of today their blue helmets are rarely assigned – regional wars if kept small the Grand Council will order the SLDF not to interfere in the internal workings of each state.
So as long as the TH is not attacked the Houses could engage in limited wars along their borders and keep the SLDF out.
However if a major conflict was to start the SLDF could intervene without the consent of the Grand Council. (ie. based upon their remit of keeping the peace).
The Canon Kerensky, in my opinion, for all his years of war he had become old and tired – he would also be attempting to appeal to the better nature of each House Lord. Doomed from the beginning – because they don’t have a better nature -
Best therefore to appeal to their base nature (an if that doesn’t work threaten them and even a limited strike may have been warranted to get their attention).
At this time Kerensky should have channeled President Theodore Roosevelt’s foreign policy: “speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far”. Refer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Stick_ideology
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nukes would be the norm.
M.A.D. – mutually assured destruction – why now? …. why then?
This is a point I never understood in the game why House lords would start multiple nuclear wars with no end in sight! Taking this situation to its logical conclusion – you go straight to the Jihad Death Drop-ships – multiple ships on every side killing off whole worlds!
Contradicting everything as to a political / military exit strategy – as you do not go into a war without knowing when / why you are stopping the war.
Looking at the Amaris Coup / War each House Lord should have a very clear realization as to what an IS war would mean – nukes and all – the damage of even a single war on this scale would be apocalyptic – there would be no exit strategy, no end in sight, just a continual ratcheting up of the destruction of one side on the other and then the inevitable retaliatory strike.
This is a point Kerensky could have easily shown to each house lord – pictures / films of the devastation – he could then provide each House Lord with a projected Loss Depletion Report from his own intelligence unit as to the damage they could expect if they go to war – fear is a very good motivator!
And then if he really wanted to play dirty – go to the people of the IS – send out an interview between himself and a reporter – a tell all interview regarding the Amaris Coup and describing (in detail) all the atrocities he had witnessed – he then ends it with his fear for the future. How many people in each state would then demand their leader seek the path to peace? … get the people within each House to drive their leader to the table.
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The SL was dead, and none of the house lords wanted anything to do with it.
I disagree it is not dead until “everyone” give up on the idea … and not just the House Lords.
Kerensky must give up, the people of the IS must give up … as long as one person still believes the SL is not dead!
Remember V for Vendetta quote, “People shouldn’t be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.”
The council solution is the only practical solution that has a chance of working!, the only other choice is too horrific to be considered by any sane leader.
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Retcon?
Get the book!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 04:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Terra (like the Vatican) becomes an independent state belong to no Great House (an independent state unto itself – All Great Houses military are forbidden within the Terran System even the SLDF are forbidden except for when their Commander is called upon to report to the High Council;
This is part of your 'only viable path' statement.
This is why I asked why would you just keep Terra, and not all the worlds in the TH. So which is the 'only viable solution'?
You don't understand that each house thought a quick victory would secure their position as First Lord? Nuked worlds do not rise up against you as you move to take another world. They do not need to be feed, or have any supplies sent to them.
It is a very harsh view, but similar to the scorched earth policy, only on the offensive. Each world destroyed means one less you have to deal with. And if there happens to be a large military force on and around those worlds, so much the better.
Not something I agree with, but understand the principal behind it.
In this case, you stop the war when the enemy becomes your puppet or absorbed into your realm. There would be no peace treaties, as it would let the enemy regain their strength. You want them so weak as to unconditionally surrender. It makes it easier to show the others your power.
Might makes right yet again.
Showing the house lords what their little wars would do, wouldn't have worked with those leaders. Dreams of Grandur comes to mind. It isn't THERE world that will suffer for it. And the nastier the end result is, the more fear you instill on those that do not admit your great might.
And the people may have wanted the SL, but knew they would be attacked once it fell. There isn't much they could do, as war was coming no matter what.
The information given was done long before Pardoe wrote his book. So any change from it is retcon. Doesn't matter what they want to say in the future. It changes the past history of the game.
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Requiem
02/12/20 03:10 PM
1.158.235.15
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When is taking vengeance too far?
Sarna.net wiki Stefan Amaris
“Charged with high treason and crimes against humanity; Amaris, his family and his closest aides were found guilty after the barest sham of a trial, and by direct order of General Kerensky, were summarily executed by SLDF troops in November 2779.”
“Though Kerensky's troops slaughtered everyone in the Rim Worlds Republic with the name Amaris, maternal cousins with different names were overlooked.”
…. His family ….. everyone with the name Amaris …..
So Kerensky, YOU ordered the death of Amais’ family? …. A family for a family is that what you were thinking? …. And whilst your army was engaged in the destruction of the Rim Worlds Republic did YOU order the death of everyone with the surname Amaris, irrespective of their guilt or innocence – irrespective of whether they were related Stefan or not?
… for it is YOUR fault – you didn’t ensure Richard was ready – you allowed Amaris to gain access when you knew what kind of a man he was – you were just followed orders when Richard ordered the SLDF to the Periphery, thus allowing your SLDF to be replaced by RWR forces – surely you could have seen what was going on - surely you could have prevented it – if only you had done something / anything ….
So, did your guilt finally cause you to ‘loose’ control?
Killing his family and anyone with the last name of Amaris … men, women, children, infants …. All dead because you wanted vengeance …..did it make you feel better that you killed his entire family (as well as anyone who’s last lame was the same as his) just because?
You got it! … they are now all DEAD, and at YOUR orders …. the innocent and the guilty alike …. Did the idea of reveling in death make you happy?
You know you are in command ... and being in command makes you legally responsible ...
Congratulations!, ….. you have just now joined the club of every leader who considers the idea of a “purge” of anyone not favored by you a good idea.
Where is the justice in this! – where is the nobility in this! -This is not the work of a General sworn to uphold the Law in Battle as in peace …. This is the work of a tin pot dictator from the dark ages who is afraid …. This is the work of a mob – it is most definitely not the work of disciplined army….. or are they now allowed to run wild whenever they want …. So is looting, pillaging and murder now common practice when the SLDF are engaged in war?
By taking “this” revenge you have committed a War Crime – genocide!
The verdict – Villain and War Criminal!
Is this why you chose Exodus – where you running from your past crimes – were journalists finally asking questions of what the SLDF really did during the Rim Worlds Republic battles – your image was becoming tarnished – so you just ran away to preserve your image?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/12/20 07:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. What a sham rant.
You just described the DC and CC rules for stomping out anyone that resists your commands. And wait. That has happened long before the exodus expansion into what becomes of the IS.
And blaming it on Kerensky is really showing the idea of destroying the game is entirely the end game to it all.
Interesting that the entire blame is on Kerensky when the house lords set this up.
The periphery wars removed Kerensky from the scene and they took over. They dismembered the SL after they basically helped Amaris take Terra. The lack of assistance being that little think you call an accomplice to murder. They did NOTHING to stop Amaris from razing the TH. War criminals not being hunted down comes to mind.
And worse, they started destroying the Laws of the SL as no one was there to stop them. Then the started picking apart the TH even before the 1st war started. Mainly with the first attacks even before Kerensky left.
But then no blame is on Cameron himself for thinking his position he gained by just being born made him a god among men. No matter how to train someone, or teach them what is and isn't real, they still think their word will make the entire universe change. Watching the news and even dealing with the advisors left behind would have told him far more then he wanted to believe.
And then Amaris himself. Had he not decided to try and take the throne, none of the civil war would have started.
So in the end, yeah. Only Kerensky is at fault for a spoiled child ignoring everyone and doing things their way.
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Requiem
02/12/20 09:28 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Rant
This post was written this way on purpose …. creative license … a form of literary genre, style, from the get go.
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Sham
Far from it!
This “rant’ is not about what the DC / CC have done or will do – it is about General Alexandr Kerensky, hero of the Amaris Civil War, Commander of the SLDF …. Canon, He is supposed to be a honorable humanitarian – has all the best bits you want in your Armies CO ….
And yet …….
Yes, when you boil every-thing down, yes it is his fault the Star League fell – He was Regent and Richard II Cameron was his ward / Heir Apparent from the age of 8, and rather than molding him into a formidable ruler we get a weak ineffective child who is looking for anyone to be his father figure and give him praise for doing a good job …..
Then he allows his SLDF within the TH to be replaced by RWR forces …. And still he did nothing ….
Any sane person should have put in place contingencies just in case, if not for him then for Richard's wife and children …
So yes the fall of the SL and the death of the entire Cameron family is on his head …. If he hadn’t been such an incompetent Regent.
I proportionate the majority of the responsibility for the fall on him, Alexandr Kerensky.
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Interesting that the entire blame is on Kerensky when the house lords set this up.
How? The House Lords took their pound of flesh AFTER the Amaris Civil War – not before it.
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They did NOTHING to stop Amaris from razing the TH.
Yes, this is to be expected of any Duke to a king – If the King becomes weak, demonstrates any weakness the Dukes will have his head …. As Regent it was his duty to prepare Richard for this …. Only by creating a formidable king can you keep the Hyena / Vulture House Lords in line!
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….they started destroying the Laws of the SL as no one was there to stop them.
Further proof of Kerensky’s incompetence, as Regent it is his duty to represent the Heir … to preserve his political power base. By not doing so it shows he did not understand the game he thrown into ….
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… then no blame is on Cameron himself for thinking his position he gained by just being born made him a god among men.
… and who’s responsibility is it to dissuade him of ‘that’ notion prior to becoming First Lord ….. Could it be his Regent?
…. Consider Elizabeth 1 as an example as to how to create a true ruler.
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And then Amaris himself. Had he not decided to try and take the throne, none of the civil war would have started.
If Richard had been brought up correctly there would never have been a means of exploiting him ….that means there never would have been a civil war, because Richard would have kept Amaris on a leash (where he belongs) …. He never would have gotten into the position to begin with, sending away the majority of his SLDF to the fringe of space (the Periphery) ….
As a formidable ruler with all his powers he would have demanded his Banner men’s forces (all the House Lord’s Forces) be put under Kerenskys command to deal with the Periphery issue once more …. As they did during the Reunification Wars.
If Kerensky had not allowed for the dilution of the First Lords Powers by not stopping the House Lords do this in the first place Richard would be able to command them to provide all the necessary forces. Whist at the same time preserving his own forces within the TH – Thus no exchange of RWR forces for SLDF forces – Thus no Civil War – and all because Richard is now a truly formidable First Lord.
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So in the end, yeah. Only Kerensky is at fault for a spoiled child ignoring everyone and doing things their way.
Yes, yes he is …. He was the Regent and this was the Regents duty – to rule in his stead until the Heir is of age to take the position – that means the preservation of his powers for when he rules! – He is also to take charge of the boy and to mold him into a man worthy of the title First Lord.
So yes it is his fault the Star League fell.
Incompetence is no excuse in the great game – it will just get you dead!
As for the rest …..
Kerensky is supposed to be a decent man, a great general, a humanitarian, a person with whom the SLDF believes in ….
And yet in a fit on anger he orders the death of EVERYONE (Men, Women, Children, Infants) within the RWR to be executed just because their last name is Amaris …. Then after the briefest sham of a trial he executes Amaris and his ENTIRE Family on Terra …. You do realize both these two actions are war crimes?
So in the end he is not a Great General … he has become little more than a tin-pot dictator … which can be shown again … he just cut and ran away, he deserted his post as protector of the realm …. A position once given can NEVER be rescinded by anyone ….. then with his 2 year exodus voyage of the damned with no end in sight and the Prinz Eugen incident (and that of his son’s forced duty to be part of the firing squad) …. These truly demonstrates how far he has fallen. It is however lucky for the 6 million who went with them that by the time they arrived at their new home worlds they finally abandoned him – I guess by this stage the people had finally had enough of him and his tyranny and just abandoned him.
The myth is one thing but the reality is he may have been extremely competent when he was young and a workaholic. But when he obtained his position, when he was far too young to comprehend the position and the politics that came with it,
He was incompetent as Regent and Protector of the Realm.
Due to his inaction, refusing to lay down the reigns of the SLDF, whist being the Regent and the Protector of the Realm his inactions led to the fall of the Star League.
During the War his direct orders made him a war criminal when he ordered the death of anyone with the surname Amaris.
Following the war he became a deserter, and a person who insighted others to desert their post, then he is guilty of the theft of Star League Property.
(once he departed he knew the House Lords would Start an Atomic War – so rather than attempt to stop it he deserted!, Coward!)
During the Exodus, he used his tyrannical powers to incite a rebellion and mutiny … and rather than comprehending his role in the mutiny he viciously murdered the conspirators - whilst forcing his own son to participate.
He was a poor excuse for a father – due to his actions / inaction once again with his two sons he produced a fanatical madman who was worse than Stefan Amaris for his cruelty that would perpetuate down through the ages. A son who was not above matricide and fratricide …. Genocide (Wolverines) …. a son who tyrannical rule surpassed that of even his father’s …. Who’s personality maintained an absolute god complex from those around him.
So yes he is guilty, he is incompetent, and yes he is definitely a villain and a coward towards the end of his life!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/12/20 09:42 PM)
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ghostrider
02/12/20 09:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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So when the first lord orders you to send your home forces out, as he has an alternative to them, you disobey direct orders?
The house lords set this up by coming in and greedily changing a lot of the way things are done, as Kerensky had no authority to counter their plots, even if he knew about them. He was a military man, not a scheming politician. Then refusing to help in any way, stop or remove Amaris before the SLDF had to turn around and come back for the horrible war, then release him of his protectorship, isn't setting him up? Basically forcing him into a corner, so he would have to back one of them as they pushed for first lord. He did the unexpected. He took his 'people' and got them away from the never ending war. Not like that hatred stayed in the IS, but it was a doomed hope.
Maybe the concept of regent is the issue here. I don't think regent is for the person to become the parent of a child. It is setting up those to deal with the child as he had other things to do. I will say he was foolish to think those he put in charge while he did other business were strong enough to rise to the challenge, but other then taking him into combat zones, there wasn't much that could be done. Now if he was relieved of running the SLDF until the child was crowned would have been a different story.
Funny how this rage didn't come out when Kentares massacre happened. You know. Where the Coordinator orders his troops to kill everyone on the planet thru swords. Oh yeah. Didn't that come because his father was killed by an assassin on that world? Picking facts to try and make the game seem wrong?
Again. If you don't like canon, then don't play canon. Bagging on the developers is the only point to a lot of these points. Make your own perfect game and get it out to the public. Oh wait. Then others would be doing the same thing to your game.
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Requiem
02/12/20 11:20 PM
1.158.235.15
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So when the first lord orders you to send your home forces out,……, you disobey direct orders?
Start with providing - all the alternatives available as well as all the ramifications of each alternative;
If he still orders your forces out ….this is where you put in place your contingency forces … and if you have an excellent people around you … this is where you put in place your irregulars (spies, assassins, commandoes etc. all hidden in plain sight) to protect the little SOB of a First Lord and his family ….
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He was a military man, not a scheming politician.
Correct, this is where you outsource and find a real devious individual who understands the game and who can be trusted to be one of your hidden advisors.
As for putting him in a corner …. he was never in a corner to begin with … putting him in a corner is when you grab his wife and sons and tell him to go along or else ….
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He did the unexpected. He took his 'people' and got them away from the never ending war.
So he just ran away, deserted his post ………………
Second, question: How can he know how long the war duration is going to be? How does he know what the War’s conclusion will be – politically or militarily?
Third, question: If he wanted to just keep his people safe then why didn’t he just set up a new realm close by and then once the IS had stabilized he could return? …. Though returning after the war would prove his coward behavior.
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Maybe the concept of regent is the issue here.
No absolutely correct, consider historical figures like Edward VI of England (Father Henry VIII);
also consider the Lyran Triumvirate Regency – Duchess Rebecca Morgan – to represent Elizabeth – Henry DeCalidore (Speaker of the Assembly of the Estates General) – to represent the Government – and Duchess Illya Aten
Regent please refer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent
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Now if he was relieved of running the SLDF until the child was crowned would have been a different story.
Isn’t this what I suggested? …. and yet he retained his SLDF position …..
You would think a person of his intelligence would understand when they are over their head …. That they might require specialist assistance ……. when you need to put aside one of your positions so that you can devote all of your time to the most important job in his life – that of ensuring the state continues and that Richard becomes a First Lord to be proud of …..
It is clear that by not stepping down his priorities were completely different that what they should have been ….
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Kentares massacre
Operation Exodus of 2784
Kentares Massacre of 2796
How could Alexandr even know?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/13/20 12:25 AM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe the very people he thought could do the job, ended up thinking just how far ahead they could get, convincing Cameron to do as they wanted to, cutting Kerensky's legs out from under him?
Or there was so much infighting, that they all seemed to be little babies fighting over who got to eat the last bit of ice cream?
So only threats on his family can force him into a corner? You are mistaken.
First off, Kerensky didn't have the authority to do more then advise. You make it sound like he had full authority to change every little thing he wanted to. He didn't. He had to abide by all the laws written in the SL. Otherwise, he could have just arrested all the house lords and held them on contempt of court or some other charges until the border situations were taken care of. And on top of that, he did not want to be that person.
Given the fact the periphery wars were something like 20 years? It would take far longer for the houses to deal with each other, as they didn't have the overwhelming forces the SLDF had over the periphery realms.
Racial hatreds, the closest thing I can use to describe the friction between realms, would make it go until they beat themselves to death trying to kill each other. The 'pirate' scourge on the borders was basically an undeclared war between them. But I guess 'reading the writing on the wall' doesn't happen.
He could have set up closer to the IS. But he would be long dead before any of the wars even slowed down. He also knew that the houses would find and send out people to try and rile up the SLDF to enter the fray, with trying to start a civil war in the SLDF if they couldn't get them on their side.
You suggested he leave his post, not have the government relieve him until Cameron was crowned. Big difference.
Yeah. HIs priorities were to keep the SLDF safe from attack. Not to raise a child. As stated above, it is most likely that he did put in good people, only to have political favors remove them, or worse, keep them in position but have Cameron not trust a single word they said. But then that situation hasn't been the case in the past... oh wait. Yes it has.
How about you read that whole statement. Here it is so you don't have to scroll up.
Funny how this rage didn't come out when Kentares massacre happened. You know. Where the Coordinator orders his troops to kill everyone on the planet thru swords. Oh yeah. Didn't that come because his father was killed by an assassin on that world? Picking facts to try and make the game seem wrong?
I have not seen a single word stating the DC had hunted down families and not because of name but just living on a world that was the site of an assassination was the same or worse. Not a single word from you saying anything of the like. Just Kerensky. And given this whole line of posts and threads, it is very obvious you are trying to convince someone that your idea of the game's history is the 'only viable way' it could be.
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Requiem
02/13/20 03:29 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Maybe ……
Richard is an 8 year old child who has been told his father will never be coming home again ….
Start with a child psychologist …..
He needs a great deal of love and care to start with …. And then you need to go from there ….
The problem is Aleksandr, at this stage has never had a child, he had no idea how to bring up an 8 year old traumatized child. He is now 51 years old, still unmarried, he has been the CO of the SLDF for the past 13 years, and he has now been appointed Regent as well as Protector of the Realm …..
Rather than give up his position of CO of the SLDF he decides he can do everything …. and when you think you can do everything, then nothing is done well …. as evidenced in the future man that is Richard II Cameron …. which indicates the man has a massive ego, and was also incredibly arrogant!
Something’s were missed at this stage ….. and given all the information available that was Richard and the changes to the First Lords Power (Political Changes) that occurred in the Grand Council ….
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Kerensky didn't have the authority to do more then advise.
Really? His titles would say otherwise ….
CO of the SLDF;
Regent of the SL;
Protector of the Realm;
What more authority does he need, as Regent he has the same authority as the First Lord.
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But I guess 'reading the writing on the wall' doesn't happen.
At the beginning of the 100 year war could anyone have predicted it would take that long before it ended?
Even with utilizing nuclear warheads to “speed up” the war – a nuclear war on this scale is completely senseless!
As for the Exodus ”protecting” the SLDF - All you need to be is about 10 jumps out and no one will know you are there – then all you need to do is send in a reconnaissance unit now and then.
When was the last time a ship was sent out to find a new world?
Given the size of the SL would anyone really notice a single small merchant scout Jumpship?
Really what was in the idea of travelling for 2 years and ending up 6 months away?
What this shows is that Aleksandr had no idea where he was going …. Just winging it demonstrates that he really was running away from the IS and his past!
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You suggested he leave his post, not have the government relieve him until Cameron was crowned. Big difference.
No, He needs to take a leave of absence from his position as CO of the SLDF, his exec could take over running the SLDF. He would then take up his full time position as Regent .
And as such, he will still require regular scheduled meetings with his exec who is now pro tem CO of the SLDF (so he will not be out of the loop).
PS. Has anyone considered the power / work he will be required to complete as Regent … the same as First Lord of the Star League?
Powers:-
First was the ability to call on the Star League Defense Force;
Second was the ability to shut down any exchange or mint, or any company dealing in inter-realm trade, at will;
Third was the ability to withhold advanced Terran Hegemony technology from the other realms;
Duties:-
Govern;
Implementing policies;
Council meetings were held in the capitol city of the Star League, the Court of the Star League (on Terra);
The Council met biannually to discuss and ratify the government's budget, summon witnesses to testify on an issue, hear petitions, and address other League concerns;
A crisis an emergency meeting could be called, and for a matter of great importance a Council Directive, or Council Order, would be drafted and put to a vote, with a majority required for passage.
The Royal Court, which met for two months during the spring and winter Council meetings - social gathering of nobles, intellectuals and celebrities, with the festivities led by the First Lord's spouse or Master of Protocol – he would be expected to attend the most import of these meetings – as during these events that many backroom agreements were forged (He would have to master this to get his policies through);
(Nt. If he did not attend these meetings it would be seen as a snub and these important people will obstruct his ability to govern and to implement policies);
He will also have to have to attend meetings for each of the seven departments on an almost constant rotational basis – these being - Department of Administration, Department of Social Relations, Department of Economic Relations, Department of Revenue, Department of Education and Information, and the Department of the Attorney General – as well as the SLDF.
And then on top of this he also believes he can run the SLDF? And he is also expected look after a young boy’s development (in all areas) as in a few short years that boy will be expected to become the Fist Lord when he reaches his majority?
It is quite obvious things were missed … errors were made …. Some worse than others, as there is no way he could be ready for the amount of work required to just be the Regent.
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I have not seen a single word stating the DC had hunted down families and not because of name but just living on a world that was the site of an assassination was the same or worse. Not a single word from you saying anything of the like. Just Kerensky. And given this whole line of posts and threads, it is very obvious you are trying to convince someone that your idea of the game's history is the 'only viable way' it could be.
Consider the title …. Then consider Rules ....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/13/20 03:36 AM)
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ghostrider
02/13/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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The SL was not a dictatorship. There were laws in place to protect the state as well as the people. There are processes that have to be gone thru in order to do things like shut down mints, banks, businesses and such. This is how the houses got their agenda pushed thru. It was the house lords that were making the laws at this point, as Kerensky knew military, not politics. Well except for those needed by military commanders. So no. He didn't have the authority to do what every he wanted to. Otherwise, Cameron's call to disarm the houses would have stuck.
I guess the way to wage war isn't something you understand. Nukes are a great way to remove huge amounts of enemy troops. You don't have to nuke a world until it all glows. Just the parts that make them dangerous to your forces. As most worlds don't have the ability to make dropships, nuking military targets as well as star ports should be enough to remove the threat of retaliation. And military targets includes fighter bases. Orbital facilities are another prime target.
Given the border strikes the houses were doing to each other during the League days, it was obvious the war would have to burn itself out. Given what it took to take down the periphery states, it was a good bet the houses would be at war for more then 50 years.
So no prior posts of the DC massacre is due to rules? Or that it somehow didn't matter?
The same could be said of other incidences, yet the issue that allowed the game to be 'created' is the problem?
Right now, it seems you want the developers to stop making any background stories for the game. Demand they spell out everything that happens. Then complain that they don't allow the GM's to alter the game as they want for their players.
I suggested you take this to the official board, and yet nothing. Suggesting you didn't get banned says you did no such thing. The developers are the only ones that can or will change the game.
And again. The way everything is presented, the feel of almost all the threads done is canon is wrong, and my way is the only viable solution to fix it. This is not presenting an alternative, this is saying that your view is the only way it can go.
Kerensky was no where near perfect. And to suggest he stay in the IS when the other powers were set to kill anything they thought was a threat, that would eventually mean hitting the SLDF. He erroneously thought taking the main core of the SLDF out of the fighting would preserve the spirit of the SL. TPTB made sure that didn't happen. But as said before. They need to keep the war going, and need new enemies to threaten the houses beside just another house.
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Requiem
02/13/20 04:16 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
It was the house lords that were making the laws at this point, …., So no. He didn't have the authority to do what every he wanted to.
Available information regarding a Council Meeting …
Council meetings were held in the capitol city of the Star League …. Officially: Council met biannually, though in a crisis an emergency meeting could be called at any time …. The Directive / Order is then put to a vote, with a simple majority required for passage.
Usually within a meeting such as a government meeting they Require:
A Leader (chair): As Regent this would be Alexanndr
Participants: The House Lords
The requirements of the meeting would be laid down by an Act of Government -
Decisions are made by a majority of the members present at the meeting voting in favor, providing a quorum is present.
If there is a tied vote the chair has the casting vote.
All members present at a council meeting may vote on every motion, unless they have a conflict of interest.
The issue, however, is the First Lord’s Power base as to what they can and cannot do and how the House Lords can make changes to the Law to make changes to their (the First Lord’s) power base.
Precedent: There were five previous First Lords who’s power remained intact – and then we have Alexandr – and the destruction of the First Lords (Richard’s) Power.
So, given the limited available information, Alexandr dropped the ball – probably in not understanding the Act (the underlining rules).
The underlining question is what he didn’t understand – ie. what was the mechanism previous First Lords used to retain their power base – if I was to guess as Chair of the meeting they had a Veto over the issue being presented – thus the First Lord could restrict what was brought before them. It would be easy to insert “Government” language to bamboozle Alexander …
Though no matter how it is viewed, no matter how it occurred – it is all on Alexandr – if he did not understand what was being discussed then he should have brought in an expert to explain what he did not understand – so why didn’t he?
If you want to discuss the DC issues – start a new post.
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Kerensky was no where near perfect. And to suggest he stay in the IS when the other powers were set to kill anything they thought was a threat, that would eventually mean hitting the SLDF. He erroneously thought taking the main core of the SLDF out of the fighting would preserve the spirit of the SL. TPTB made sure that didn't happen. But as said before. They need to keep the war going, and need new enemies to threaten the houses beside just another house.
First – as the CO of the SLDF and the former Regent and Protector of the Realm – What is his duty and his responsibilities and to whom is he accountable to?
Second – when a threat is presented what is his response given he is the CO of the SLDF?
Third – Should the Game be realistic in its history or should it defy all sense of reality because you just want more war?
Fourth – when an Officer of the SLDF is told that their Superior is going to desert his post in the face of an oncoming war what is their duty, to the SL, to the SLDF, and to their individual Honor?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 12:19 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well let's see. The SL died before he gave up on it. And with that the SLDF died with it, as there was no government to support the military. Or did you forget that?
With that he had no authority to do more then get his soldiers out of the way, and that was only if they listened to him. They could have said no and defected to the houses, or just stayed to try and protect what they could.
Realistic? Really? A game with mobile fusion engines that use craft to teleport into other systems is real?
And real does not mean niceities as that isn't real life. Realistic story lines is not the cut and dried making the greatest story in the world. There would be no such thing as intermittant use of WMDs. They would be used at least use them once a year or maybe once an invasion or raid. Reality would mean that your wish for commando strikes and such would be more common as those that don't like the current government would be bombing everyone trying to make them be the only ones that were perfect for the positions. The houses wouldn't exist, as even with HPGs, the distances to be traveled are just too great to do much. The Terran Alliance comes into a good example here.
The fourth statement goes back to the first two. There was no SLDF when Kerensky was going to leave. There is your realism. It died 2 years before he said to leave. And that was after trying to get the house lords to stop their bickering.
Now. With that U.N. approach, Kerensky would have been stuck fulfilling the agenda of the house lords as it would be 5 votes to 1. The dictator you claim he is, did not come out and threaten the lords with violence if they continued to dismantle the League. Which they did over the years as the last Cameron grew up, then died. That is not even going into the local government on Terra corrupting the system. Kerensky was a military man, not a lawyer. He only knew regs and that does not work well or long in a civilian setting.
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Requiem
02/14/20 01:49 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
The SL died before he gave up on it. And with that the SLDF died with it, as there was no government to support the military.
Ideas and ideals cannot be killed by fire, people die, but ideas and ideals never die. No man and no force can abolish memory ….
Taking liberty with a quote from Franklin D. Roservelt
…. because what is built endures, and what is loved endures, ideas and ideals endures. And The Star League …. The Star League endures.
Taking liberty with Babylon 5 Rising Star
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With that he had no authority to do more then get his soldiers out of the way
Questions –
Since when has it ever been a soldier’s duty “to get out of the way”?
Is not their duty to put their life on the line so that they can protect all they love even if that means attacking the gates of Hell itself with a water gun?
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….Realistic….
Being realistic ….. frivolity on the subject?
WMDs ….. even once in one too much, the concept they will be used intermittently is ludicrous. As if it was true how many wars would they have been used – Korea (The Big Mac requested wanted to use them on the Chinese) – Vietnam – rather than agent orange why not limited nuke strikes ….
Commando strikes …. Yes they should be used more often ….
The tyranny of distance …. This and the number of enemy forces has available is the reason why Nukes do not work “to speed up” a war.
Being a science fiction game underlying rules are provided that underline the game - The use of Jump-ships and HPG communication are a given to explain how ……remove them and the game falls over ….
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There was no SLDF when Kerensky was going to leave.
How was the SLDF still in operation? How were the SLDF getting paid? The Department of Revenue … The SL is alive ….
Was the SL government starting reconstruction projects (looking after the refugees) throughout the TH during these 2 years? Departments of Aministration, Social Relations, Revenue … the SL is alive ….
Who is paying the civil servants, public hospitals, public schools etc….
So as long as SLDF holds the government together it is still alive … so long as one world is listening to the Terran Government it is alive ….
Kerensky abandoned and deserted his position – he deserted Rome as the Vandals came within sight … to the villainy of his name!
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With that U.N. approach, Kerensky would have been stuck fulfilling the agenda of the house lords as it would be 5 votes to 1
The United Nations Security Council “power of veto” refers to the vetopower wielded by the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council (China, Russia, United Kingdom, and United States), enabling them to prevent the adoption of any “substantive” resolution.
How else could the previous five First Lords have kept their Power and at the same time kept the House Lords in check? And yet with Kerensky and only with Kerensky did these Powers of the First Lord deteriorate.
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The dictator you claim he is, did not come out and threaten the lords with violence if they continued to dismantle the League.
Yes, and this is the problem … at this stage in his life he is just a tired old man …. what is needed at this point in time is the General who WILL threaten the lords with violence if they continue to dismantle the league … if he couldn’t do the job he should have found someone who could!
This is his duty, to stop the deterioration and to hold it all together …. even if that meant he cheat to win! The Battlefield is not with BattleMechs …. The battlefield is with the hears of the people, ideas and ideals. It is in finding those within each houses government who wish to retain the SL and assisting them over their own Lords – using the majority of the people within each house to demand they remain with the SL. This battle will be fought through the media throughout the IS.
Not every problem requires a gun to fix it.
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Kerensky was a military man, not a lawyer. He only knew regs and that does not work well or long in a civilian setting.
Agree … he is a neophyte / incompetent!
However, he is supposed to be intelligent, and in a situation like this he should have surrounded himself with people who could advise him so that he can do the job.
And yet ……. everything went pear shape ….. which is the thunderous!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 04:27 AM
66.74.60.165
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I didn't say his duty was to get his soldiers out of the way. I said he lack authority to do anything more then get his soldiers out of the way.
And they did storm the gates of hell. And hell snuck up behind them and destroyed what they loved. With it gone, there was no reason to stay. Also, the devil and his children where hunted down for the act. So which is it going to be? Hunting down every Amaris, or the League falling?
Using WMD near your home isn't smart. If it was another world? Well, it wouldn't be so bad. I don't like that concept, but it is valid. And sci fi games have things like planet killers as well as creatures that eat humans. Other things that are just as horrible as well.
As the TH did not become a non entity when it formed the SL, they could well have picked up on paying for the soldiers during that time. It was to be destroyed when the house lords decided they had some nice worlds that needed to be theirs.
Still not getting that not everyone has the skills to do everything? Kerensky was not the master of media. Nor was he the great diplomat or politician or any other thing like that. It may well be that the house lords and others in the government put him into that position just because he would be easy to manipulate. Just so many were trying to carve out a little empire, there wasn't anything left to carve up.
Tired old man. Sounds human.
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Requiem
02/14/20 05:33 AM
1.158.235.15
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1st Lack of authority
I doubt the House Lords have the authority to remove him as CO of the SLDF and even if they did would anyone even listen?
Plus as a PR act this would have fallen flat with the people of the IS.
Also he was once Regent and Lord Protector – in any power game he should have used this past position to enforce his will over that of the House Lords.
First prior to the meeting declare to the people of the IS (via the media) that due to the extraordinary circumstances he is once more assuming the Positions as Regent and Protector of the Realm – and that once these circumstances has been resolved he will stand down.
He immediately gets the high road ... and just watch how quickly they then travel to Terra ... rather than procrastinating on their home Capital World.
Once on Terra .... he just lays down the law, as Regent , this is how it is going to be .... they say no .... he then threatens them
and then brings in the media (in an ambush) and says this is what I have believe is the best cause of action ....
So what are they going to do next ... in front of the media .... storm out?
So yes he does have the authority he needs – he just needs to be creative!.
2nd Amaris and his family
Legally – If a war crimes trial is held and he is found guilty Amaris can be executed.
However, executing his family (non-combatants) is a war crime no matter how you look at.
3rd Amaris or the League Falling
These are two separate and independent events – there is no or in this case.
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It may well be that the house lords and others in the government put him into that position just because he would be easy to manipulate.
If he was easy to manipulate then Amaris could have convinced him that he was the new First Lord.
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Tired old man. Sounds human.
Yes it does.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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