Dermenore
06/25/20 11:13 AM
92.169.144.247
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At read your last post (again, sorry for don't read all, but you two seem to debate about that for a long time) Ghost, I think I was too hard on Kerensky. I think "a fail" is too hard for the man. "Incompetent" depends on what. As a political man, maybe. As a military, no.
The fact is, even after two costly wars, the majority of SLDF was still loyal to him, to the point to propose him to seize power and follow him into Exodus. I don't think you can inspire this kind of loyalty if you are incompetent. Propaganda and manipulation can't buy you that after two costly wars. So Kerensky was competent and probably very good to take care of his soldiers.
But again, I don't think he is a "great" general. For me, a great general is someone who wins against a more powerful enemy (like Hannibal) or who revolutionizes the art of war (like Napoléon). Kerensky "just" win a war against an inferior foe.
As a political man, it's complicated. In first, yes, he probably wouldn't become a political man. But he became one when he accepts the mantle of regent and was a force to became one when he became the de facto leader of the Star League loyalist, then the leader of the Exodus.
And as a political man, he didn't make any success. With Richard, with Amari, with the Houses Lords, and with the Pentagon World. But someone can't argue that success was impossible: Richard was too immature, Amari as a too good cover, the Houses Lords were too stubborn, the hatred in the colony was too strong. Maybe only a miracle can save these situations and we can't ask for a miracle. So it's why I said now "maybe" incompetent.
About the Exodus, I buy more the argument of Requiem. Yes, the Terran Hegemony was politically dead. But not his people, people who suffer a lot in the first Succession Wars. It's was not about protecting a state or the Cameron legacy but about protecting these people. I still think Kerensky could do it and should have to do it. And I still think that the Exodus was the easy option, even it's an understandable one.
About the fact that SLDF soldiers would fight each other like in Pentagon Worlds, I think:
- it's not sure, because in the Pentagon they were frustrated by their demilitarization.
- Kerensky could just use the Terran Hegemony division (the Royal Division no ?) to protect the core world.
In the end, I think Kerensky is just a good man, a competent military who faces a situation too difficult for him (and to be honest, for the vast majority of people).
I think I understand better why he is so glorified in the Battletech universe, for a man who just won one war then just suffer the event before taking a bad decision (the Exodus). Clans haves deity him, so of course, they will exaggerate his deed. And for the Inner Sphere, Kerensky is the last figure of the Star League, the last figure of a mythic golden age who was also exaggerated. The last good man before the horror of the Successions Wars. And it's why the Inner Sphere honors him so much. At least, it's why I think.
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ghostrider
06/26/20 03:04 AM
66.74.60.165
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As avoiding the question on if you would stay and defend the now dead SL, I have to take that answer as a no. The fact that most people don't want to die if they can avoid it, stands true with even soldiers. You say he swore an oath and took the coin of the first lord, but when Amaris killed him, it basically ended that oath.
Saying Kerensky was at fault is completely ignoring the fact that Amaris pulled the trigger, while Kerensky was in the periphery, which meant others were dealing with Richard.
How did Amaris get the laser pistol past the guards and such that were around Richard?
Oh. So that means Kerensky is at fault for security failing to do their job making sure that could not happen. I would bet they are the same guards that were guarding him while his father was alive.
Speculative is exactly the complaint about Kerensky. You say he wasn't taught right, but how do you know this? You don't. The most likely thing with Richard is he was a kid wanting to have fun. Kerensky and his guards were keeping him from doing that. Amaris was there to try and show him what fun is, then killed him when Richard trusted him. Sound about right?
Do you think that Richard didn't have people tutoring him while his father was alive? Those very people would probably have kept their position and tutored him after his father died. Or does history change in this case? Regs would say that a routine like this would continue as the tutors were already vetted years before hand.
Still not understanding that Kerensky was not on Terra to teach Richard, even if he knew how? That his tutors had it all covered while he was leading the troops? It is very possible Kerensky hated the politician, which is why he stayed with the troops. Again. He didn't have to be there. Others were still doing the jobs they did before his father died. Or are you saying that they couldn't do the job right?
The exodus was a good indication that he did step down. He did NOT order everyone the leave with him, but gave them the choice to stay. He could be charged with stealing SL equipment, as he did take a lot of it with him.
And the forces would definitely have started siding with their homelands. They would break orders to stay bunkered down and cause the SLDF to become participants in the wars, probably looking like they sided for one nation. Also, the fact that Kurita did not relay the letter to the others, meaning that very action prevented the SL from staying together.
But in the end, only one person can be faulted for the breakup and you don't like the fact it was Amaris. He set it up and pulled the trigger himself.
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Requiem
06/26/20 05:53 AM
1.158.192.25
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but when Amaris killed him, it basically ended that oath.
Oath of Enlistment Research?
….. US …. Constitution of United States ….etc.
……England…… to heirs and successors ….. to the United Kingdom …. Its rights and freedoms.
…… Others …… to the motherland (country) …. Allegiance to a country …..
As the SL is a more libertine state the Oath can be assumed to be both to the First Lord and the SL.
It is only with dictators that the oath is rendered to an individual person …. WW2 Germany, when it was given Adolf Hitler ( to which I would assume Amaris had his RWR forces swear.)
Does military Oath Expire?
Capt. Seid Waddell ….”…our Oath never expires. It is our duty to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”
It is not in the military DNA to cut and run! …. Surrender under certain circumstances, yes this occurs….. retreat in good order in order to reformat for a counter attack, yes this also does occur.
The only two examples I can remember that that ran away …..
Gedeon Pillow …. Who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, who then ran away, leaving Buckner to surrender Fort Donelson and 15,000 Confederate Troops …and marked the beginning of the end of the Confederate.
Pierre-Charles-Jean-Baptiste-Silvestre de Villeneuve – ran away from the Battle of the Nile … disobeyed orders and in so doing scuttled Napoleon’s plans to invade England … responsible for the Battle of Trafalgar that established British sea supremacy for the next century.
So at this stage which is closer comparison to that of Kerensky running away?
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Saying Kerensky was at fault is completely ignoring the fact that Amaris pulled the trigger, while Kerensky was in the periphery,
Which is more guilty the brain or the hand in committing the crime?
Most would argue the mind and not the hand – With an adequate education / security force this situation could have been averted.
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Richard Cameron II
Executive Oder 156
2763 Taxation Edict
Two very good examples that demonstrate his incompetence as ruler of the SL.
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Do you think that Richard didn't have people tutoring him while his father was alive? Those very people would probably have kept their position and tutored him after his father died.
Going through an education system – has anyone kept the same teachers from primary school all the way through high school and at the same time a university education?
Experts are required for each individual topic Richard will need to understand.
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Still not understanding that Kerensky was not on Terra to teach Richard,
Has any person who has been appointed as ruler of a realm run away from the Capitol of their Country?
Kerensky is regent … and as such de-facto ruler ….
Richard, the seat of power and the Government’s bureaucracy are all on Terra.
He will have no choice but to reside on Terra.
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The exodus was a good indication that he did step down.
Then why did the military obey a civilian? If he has stepped down, he is no longer a part of the Chain of Command, there is another person in command of the SLDF (so who is it? Where is it written who his successor was?) – Thus, charges of mutiny, abandoning their posts, must be considered …..
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But in the end, only one person can be faulted for the breakup and you don't like the fact it was Amaris. He set it up and pulled the trigger himself.
As stated above it is not Amaris but Kerensky who is at fault here …. His incompetence as Regent …. And his inability to hold the line – then using his charisma within the military to coerce a mass desertion …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Dermenore
06/26/20 12:16 PM
92.169.144.247
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I don't know if you were questioning me with your "if you would stay and defend the now dead SL", ghostrider. Sorry if yes, I didn't saw the question until now.
It's really complicated and hard to know. Of course, if I was magically teleported into the BT universe at this date, me the young Europeans who live all this life in peace and privilege, I don't think I would risk my life for the SL. I would probably try to find a scientist to speak about my magical teleportation. 
But, if I was born into this universe? Well... I wouldn't be the same person anymore and it's would be hard to answer.
I think we can relate the question at what happens in the European country occupied by the Nazis during Wolrd War II, who all fall when Germany seems unstoppable.
At this moment, people had a choice: would you still fight for your government on exile and his allies, who only fail until now? It's not exactly the same of course. Requiem will probably argue that the SLDF was way more powerful (in comparison to his enemies) that England and the resistants. But it's hard to find a perfect analogy. I think this example would be enough to illustrate my words.
So, facts are, despite all the propaganda some governments did after the war, that not everybody fights back. Just a minority. The majority stay passive. Wait and see. As one of my history teachers said, "not everybody is a hero". It's easy now to say "yes, of course, I would have resisted and fight the nazi". But when you don't know history, have your life at stake...
That why I said that the choice of the Exodus was a comprehensible one. Kerensky didn't know if he could win. He didn't know if he could improve the situation. Maybe just stay in the Inner Sphere will make things worse, adding more firepower in a war where there is already too much of it. By the Exodus, he could maybe save what he could. Building a better society. Save the human technology. Do a good thing. But in return, he condemns the Inner Sphere.
It's why I still think that stay and fight was the better choice. The heroic choice. The difficult choice. Heroic because he could, maybe, save all. Difficult because he put him at a greater risk.
And in the end, we can't ask at everybody to be a hero.
It's not bad that Kerensky made some decisions and fail in politics. If he was a great politician and prevent Amari, or even just stop the Houses Lords, there will not be Successions Wars, which are the first setting for Battletech. We can have a universe based on conflict if the good men act perfectly and/or always succeed. Imagine if, in Lord of the Ring, Isildur would have destroyed the ring? There would be no more story!
After, I agree it's exaggerated to blame him for all the bad things that Amari has done and all the stupid things Richard has made. He has a little part of responsibility but far less than a lot of people. And less than Amari for sure.
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ghostrider
06/26/20 12:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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Kerensky was not the great general the game portraits. He lacked knowledge in more then a few areas. Incompetent suggests he was a bumbling idiot. The very fact he was fighting in the periphery when Richard was growing up suggests the house lords probably elected him as he would not just up and leave the troops in someone else's hands. They were scheming as much as Amaris did. I don't think they were planning an assassination of Richard, but making a puppet out of him.
Not sure how much of the Royal Division was still intact at the end of the war. I would think they rebuilt it, as I believe it was one of those units that was on Terra when the take over started. But even that has some issues, as those in the Royals were not always better then those in other units. The martial testing was a good idea to allow the best of the best to retain being soldiers driving mechs. Quirks do happen, and the best isn't always going to side with you on things. If they do, then you aren't running a government the way it needs to. Without opposing views, and just having yes men, you don't get all the facts you need.
If the oath wasn't to the Camerons alone, then why did you say it was an oath to Richard? As the house lords basically destroyed the League, which Kerensky did waste 2 years afterwards, what was left of that oath? The people may well have turned on Kerensky, asking why he wasn't there to stop the entire thing as well as nuke and destroy cities and worlds trying to retake the Hegemony? Also, given what happened, he may well have seen there was no stopping the entire fall. As he was not going to take power, who would? Any sort of favoritism to any one of his officers would have created more infighting. This was a no win situation.
Cut and ran is not correct. If the house lords would have shown any interest in restoring the League, without them being head of it, he may well have stayed. But again, showing favoritism would have cause conflicts in and out of the SLDF.
Also saying that he could hold the Hegemony from the houses neglects the fact that they could all have hit him at once. The lack of understanding that you have to protect ALL in order to protect any shows here. They could not group everything into one large force, then go out to hit one house or another. That leaves the Hegemony open to raids, which became a fact of life in the IS with the succession wars.
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ghostrider
06/26/20 12:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Also, where is it written that Kerensky was never going to return to the Hegemony after the fighting died down. His response to the clan civil war may well show this was his intent, but got sidetracked with the exodus. As the Wardens held power for so long, their idea was to protect the IS. Protect them from what? The Crusader platform seems to be what you favor as it is suggested they seize power. Yet the complaint that the clans invaded the FC comes up.
Which is more guilty? The brain or the hand that commits a crime? If it was on the same person, that might apply. But given the analogy, why not make it the truth? Which is more guilty? The person firing a gun, or the gun itself? Maybe the security detail failed to find the person before they committed a crime. Maybe it is the manufacturer, as if they had not made the weapon, the crime wouldn't have happened. Oh wait. That isn't true. The crime would still happen, even if the weapon was a screwdriver or other house hold item. Might as well lock everyone up to prevent this from happening. So who would get to do any work? Everything can be used as a weapon to commit a crime. But with this, you suggest the person that planned the operation and pulled the trigger is not the one ultimately responsible for the crime, shows logic just does not work right.
The question of defending was to Requiem as he suggests that the Kerensky should have stayed in the Hegemony area and died fighting. He seems to believe that stand and die is the only legal thing a military should do. No retreat, no surrender. Just die where you are. More then a few responses leads to that conclusion. If you are not the leader, then this does not seem right. Conscription is the only way you could have an army if you are like this. The normal people will NOT join if they see you are to die in spot if anything goes wrong.
Now as for Richard making bad decisions, it shows he was a spoiled child that believed he was ruler of all under the heavens. He specifically ordered the disbandment of the house forces in order to show his power. He only showed rage and tyrannical ambitions. He was poorly trained to deal with the house lords, which again, is not something Kerensky was able to show him. Or maybe his example of leading the war showed him the wrong way.
The biggest, best equipped army at your disposal, Richard may well have decided to seize it all. Much like Katherine did. Amaris just got to that point first.
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ghostrider
06/26/20 12:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Having the same tutors for his life is very possible. This is not going to a public school, where teachers focus on one age group. This is private teaching. Granted, some would have to be changed out, but a math tutor should know it all from simple addition to full trigonometry, maybe even jump point calculations. Speech and languages might have the same person if all he was going to learn was the 'common' English, as the game has not really hinted at anything other the English.
Specialists would come in when needed, but again, Kerensky was not part of the team that would vet these people. It was not his specialty, and the SL intel department was doing the job.
Kerensky probably ordered those watching Richard to continue to do the job as well as the rest of the government while he took care of the issues in the periphery. Being on Terra would not have changed them doing the same job. It was the status quo. Something that has worked for years before he was appointed. The only difference here is Amaris was able to skirt the security detail in order to gain Richard's trust then kill him. Kerensky being there would not have changed that. It might have pushed Richard into action even sooner, like in the middle of the periphery wars. If Richard was the spoiled child, he would have acted out with Kerensky being there making sure he did not try the crap he did.
It is the law enforcement that is responsible for crimes? Not the person committing them? So anarchy is the best way to run things? Anarchy is the first step to a dictator, once you remove another form of government or someone in charge. The next step is to show the rest, you are in charge. Still not sure why this is an issue. In the case of Amaris killing Richard, it was a crime committed by Amaris. He, alone, is responsible for it.
And to put an over view of this, the developers used this story as a means to set up the game in the 3025 era. If they would have stayed away from filling in the back story, this whole discussion would not happen.
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ghostrider
06/26/20 01:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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A little off track, but the idea to stand and die comes down to a few things. First is if your death will do anything. Can you give others time to get away by slowing things down, comes to mind. Then if there is much chance of even slowing down an enemy.
The leaders do not know everything of every situation. They make choices that are based on limited or non existent facts. They tell you to hold, not knowing the building is falling in on itself. Most don't want excuses, just obey my orders.
Most would not just sit there and die. Even soldiers. They would try something to slow down the enemy, but still not just stand and die for the fun of it. Most heroes are not those that stand up and say shoot me. They are the ones that take out an enemy, usually thru 'underhanded' methods, such as traps and hit and runs. But this runs counter to the stand and die concept.
And a thought just occurred to me. When the Kuritan coordinator that got killed and started the Kentares massacre discussion came up, it was the security details fault for not protecting the coordinator, yet the same doesn't hold true for Richards death? One argument says the coordinator shouldn't have been in the field, yet was an adult making his own decisions, yet Richard WAS killed at home. Irony?
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Requiem
06/27/20 02:54 AM
1.158.192.25
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Quote:
Requiem will probably argue that the SLDF was way more powerful (in comparison to his enemies)
Conflicting Information as to SLDF at the end of the Amaris conflict …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
‘Kerensky then led the surviving 113 divisions out beyond the Inner Sphere.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Star_League#Dissolution
“Kerensky gathered 80 percent of the SLDF forces, and they jumped out of the Inner Sphere,”
….. 113 divisions equals 80% of the remaining land forces.
Therefore 100% of the remaining land forces is 141.25 divisions
However.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
At the end of the civil war only 113 Divisions of the SLDF remained. At the end of the civil war only 113 Divisions of the SLDF remained. Of these units over a hundred agreed to follow Kerensky: thirty-two BattleMech divisions, seventy-six infantry divisions, and sixty-three independent regiments. A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips.
1 Armored Division Remained
32 BattleMech Divisions Remained
76 Infantry Divisions Remained
63 Independent Regiments Remained
Total 172 Regiments remained …..
And if this represents the total 80% that departed with Kerensky
Then the 100% is now 215 Regiments
Then there is the Navy – if 402 Warships is again 80% of the total fleet then 100% is 503 Ships
Thus depending upon source material the SLDF Army is either 141 or 215 Regiments – and the navy is at 402 to 503 Ships.
Then I would also like to stress the time between the End of the Amaris War and that of the Exodus – September 2779 to September 2784 – Between these two time periods was no effort placed in rebuilding and recruitment?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Federated_Suns
As of 2765 they were well equipped with 110 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet had a volume of 51 vessels.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Draconis_Combine_Mustered_Soldiery
by 2765 this had increased to 115 well-equipped 'Mech regiments, with thousands of conventional regiments, and a naval fleet of 42 WarShips with several hundred fighter wings
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Free_Worlds_League_Military
As of 2765 they were well-equipped with 95 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet strength was listed at 47 vessels
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Capellan_Confederation_Armed_Forces#2765
By 2765 they were well equipped with 92 'Mech regiments, and a naval fleet of 37 vessels.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth_Armed_Forces
By 2765 this had increased to 90 'Mech regiments and 60 WarShips.
Yes, the SLDF is outnumbered when it comes to Land Forces
However, when it comes to Warships ….
House Warships as at 2765
AFFS…………………..51
DCMS………………….42
FWLM…………………47
CCAF………………….37
LCAF………………….60 Total 237 (Compared to the SLDF’s approximate 402 to 503 warships)
The entire IS Houses will have to engage the SLDF otherwise they will be severely outnumbered.
The SLDF could effectively stand-off and destroy every Houses Military fleet as they are transported within their Drop-ships.
Also considering the number of warships available to the SLDF they could easily rain down more death and destruction with orbital bombardments / nuclear weapons if it came to a full scale war.
Why else is there peace between the house lords whilst the SLDF is still within the IS? THEIR NAVY
Remove this and the Houses are now at a state of almost parity when it comes to their military forces – thus we have the First Succession War.
If the SLDF Navy remains – considering its size - none of the remaining houses could have made a move.
For such a great General, Kerensky must not have been a capable Admiral of the fleet to understand that the remaining military might of the Naval SLDF compared to that of the combined might of the IS Forces has the potential to sink all the IS Houses Naval assets and then held the peace.
As this is the duty SLDF to Keep the peace .....
Thus demonstrating once more Kerensky's incompetence ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/27/20 06:25 PM)
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ghostrider
06/27/20 08:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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Actually, there were ships produced between the end of the Amaris war and when the SLDF left.
But the fact that their own numbers aren't constant is more then enough to say they didn't have the research done right. The SLDF was supposedly using the high tech to keep their forces one step ahead of the houses. So I can see the SLDF outnumbering one house alone. As for all 5? That is questionable. But then, this is the time frame where the houses were not spending as much in armed forces as expanding and building. Why do you need 200 warships when someone else it paying for them to protect your area? You can get away with far less, unless you are paranoid that those with the ship will attack.
Which also goes back to the need to own it all. Why did the Hegemony form the SL? It would have been easier to just annex everything and take it all for themselves? They gave up the Defiance plants, which really didn't make any sense. That much I agree upon.
And given the history of the game, didn't the LC produce the first mech from stolen designs in the Defiance plant?
But it all comes down to them using some excuse to break up the SL in order to move the game into the position it was in when it came out.
Not sure of the history they had when the game was still named Battledroids.
Incompetent is not correct. Ignorant of a few things would be. Also the term great general was because he was the commander of the SLDF. What else would you call someone in that position? The little go to boy that kills on command? Isn't that an assassin?
They may referred to him as such, because he removed Amaris from the throne. What happened afterwards was in an area he had no real training for.
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Requiem
06/27/20 10:25 PM
1.158.192.25
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Quote:
Actually, there were ships produced between the end of the Amaris war and when the SLDF left.
Correct, EVERYONE has the capabilities of producing more warships Houses and the SLDF.
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So I can see the SLDF outnumbering one house alone. As for all 5? That is questionable.
FACT – as shown above the SLDF has a minimum of 2:1 ratio based upon total IS Houses – However this will not be case if an individual house steps out of line.
Given the above information each house is looking at an 8 to 10 to 1 ratio if they went up against the SLDF.
FACT – not one house alone can stand up to the SLDF Navy!
FACT - Ground force numbers do not have no part to play in modern warfare of this era when Naval Numbers will determine the war.
Quote:
Incompetent is not correct. Ignorant of a few things would be.
Can I laugh now at this statement?
As the commander of the SLDF you have 402 to 503 warships + the number of warships you have built from when Amaris was destroyed.
Not one house has over 100 warships at the same period of time.
And it is expected he does not understand / ignorant in which these numbers represent – he has just fought a war from 2766 and 2780 – how many of these engagements were naval battles alone?
He knows exactly what firepower his warship fleet can bring to bear against any hostile force!
And as such if he does not utilize the fleet against the renegade Houses it is Dereliction of Duty!
Try to spit any way – the Facts remain as per the above facts – the SLDF have 402 to 503 warships (minimum) at the time of the exodus where as each House had yet to reach 100.
Kerensky stated that he wanted to preserve the Star League as the reason he initiated the exodus – correct?
However, he could have stood off and sank every House Fleet to Keep the peace if he so desired and the removal of the SLDF fleet is the reason the First Succession War Kicked off.
He knew full well, given his meetings with the House Lords, their avarice towards becoming the next First Lord of the Star League.
He knew full well that if he removed the bulk of the SLDF Navy he ensured there would be no impediment towards a Succession War between all the Houses.
Thus I hereby make this charge against ALEXANDER KERENSKY ….. VILLAIN OF THE HIGHEST ORDER. (Far surpassing Amaris in Villainy towards the Inner Sphere)
Motive: Revenge against the House Lords that removed him from being Commanding General of the SLDF.
That he, with full knowledge and forethought, orcustrated the events following his removal as Commanding General so as to ensure the first Succession war between the Great Houses – he knew the only impediment to starting the war was the SLDF Navy.
Thus he arranged his meeting within a deserted and isolated building, knowing that he could manipulate the people under him if he provided them a good enough bogus reason as to the reason for exodus – a reason that sounds plausible and yet when investigated fully shows there is a massive flaw (The Fleet Numbers SLDF Vs, all Houses).
He knew full well that when he took the fleet out of the IS all the Houses would then be in the same position he was in, in 2766, when he was alone and in a massive shooting war with Amaris.
I hereby put it forward that Kerensky wanted the House Lords to nominate him as First Lord (he never wanted to take it himself – he wanted the House Lords to raise him to this position …. And yet rather than taking this path they removed him from his position ….. and in so doing they set him on his path of vengeance to them and the entire Inner Sphere.
Thus we finally see the true Kerensky a petty and vindictive man who is ruled by his baser natures when it comes to any slight against him personally …. Which is again seen again when the Prinz Eugen mutinied and he ordered his son be a member of the execution squad …..
This is the true reason of the Exodus …not to save the Star League …. But to condemn the IS to the same situation he found himself in 2766 when the House Lords refused to assist him in a shooting war against Amaris …..
Kerensky is truly a petty and vindictive individual and villain of the worst order (in my opinion!) he never wanted to save the Star League he wanted to condemn them for not elevating him, the Great arrion, him the Great General to the highest post.
Plus when viewed this way the issue of the abandoned warship in the periphery that was said to contain Richard Cameron’s children becomes clear – yes they did escape terra – yet the crew and the legitimate heirs of the Star League did not escape Kerensky …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/28/20 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Not what I meant when saying ships were being produced. Kerensky had ordered more then a few of them for his exodus plan. But this does lead to several questions, which also include recruiting people for the SLDF.
How many ships were built?
How many recruits were actually trained to become soldier, or in the process of doing so?
I don't know if this is where the differences in numbers comes from, or if the final figure includes this.
The ship production does require an answer as to how many yards were still in shape to produce anything? Those in the Hegemony were probably damage at the least, while some probably destroyed. As the game suggests ship yards can not be built in two years, this causes issues on just how many ships the SLDF could actually make for the exodus and those that stayed.
The fact of the ratio of numbers is something I would like to see in print. But the question comes to mind, is that number AFTER the Amaris war? You have the periphery war taking a toll on them, then the Amaris war. So 2:1 being after this?
Which also needs answers, is this after the Exodus left?
What renegade houses? The ones that stripped him of his responsibility to the now dead SL? He could have become an emperor maker, but choose to remove the people that would follow him from further wars. As he just went thru the war of horrifying issues, you want him to continue to be forced into a style of war that forces him to destroy entire cities?
The removal of the Fleet is what kicked off the succession wars? Might need to reread that time line. Kerensky was not out of the IS when the DC was already invading the FS. The DC thought the SLDF was planning an attack on their area. Then used him movement to position their forces in order to hit the FS.
And funny how this was what caused the whole thing, but Amaris killing the first lord has nothing to do with it? Try again.
Massive flaw? To decide the coming war would cause the Amaris conflict to look like a pair of babies in a slap fight and want no part of it? To have to go against the entire SLDF concept, as they were meant to be a police force, not someone that is destroying those around them?
The twisted perception of what took place causes people to think your analysis is a failure. Though opinion is stated.
The logic that leads up to it does not follow the facts, but follows the desired outcome,
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Requiem
06/28/20 04:28 PM
1.158.192.25
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Kerensky had ordered more then a few of them for his exodus plan.
Yes, all of them civilian Jump-ships and none of them relating to warships.
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How many ships were built?
Unknown – no information has been supplied regarding this …..
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How many recruits were actually trained to become soldier, or in the process of doing so?
Unknown – no information has been supplied regarding this …..
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how many yards were still in shape to produce anything?
Unknown – no information has been supplied regarding this …..
However considering he required 1,349 Jump-ships and over 5,000 Drop-ships for Operation Exodus there must have been a few yards still operational …
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As the game suggests ship yards can not be built in two years
Supposition only as this statement refers to the game world of 3025 it does in no way relate to the game world of 2766 …. thus the issue becomes can they? When considering the number of ships that were supposed to be active during the star league (as well at the time it required to change over warship classes within the SLDF) the point must be in the affirmative they can and they did …..
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The fact of the ratio of numbers is something I would like to see in print.
The above Links provides all the documented information – ratios are then a simple mathematical calculation …….
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….. So 2:1 being after this? ….. is this after the Exodus left?
Basic comprehension again…….?
House Warships as at 2765…………….. SLDF Warships (402)……….SLDF Warships (503)
AFFS………………….51…………………(51 : 402)...1 : 7.9…………..……1 : 9.9
DCMS…………………42………………………………..1 : 9.6……..………..1 : 12.0
FWLM…………………47………………………………..1 : 8.6………………1 : 10.7
CCAF………………….37………………………………..1 : 10.9……………..1 : 13.6
LCAF………………….60 ……………………………….1 : 6.7……………….1 : 8.4
Total ………………… 237……………………………….1 : 1.7……………….1 : 2.1
On a one on one fight each individual House is at great disadvantage compared to the SLDF Navy.
With the removal of the SLDF Warships it is clear to see that each House is at an almost parity with that of their neighbor.
Ie. Remove the SLDF Navy and you remove the one and only thing stopping the Houses going to war with each other.
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What renegade houses? The ones that stripped him of his responsibility to the now dead SL? He could have become an emperor maker, but choose to remove the people that would follow him from further wars. As he just went thru the war of horrifying issues, you want him to continue to be forced into a style of war that forces him to destroy entire cities?
My New Hypothesis regarding Alexander Kerensky….
Kerensky’s aim from the time was appointed as Regent was and is to become the next First Lord ….
He sabotaged Richard Cameron’s early development …. Hence the basket case we see in later life ….
He made sure the wrong kind of people would be provided access to Richard ….. all the House Lords and especially Amaris ……
He did not kick up a fuss when Richard allowed Amaris’ RWR forces to subsume SLDF bases and positions within the Terran Hegemony ….. a sure sign there is going to be a Coup I the offing …..
Post Coup Kerensky knew he could ride, like the hero of old on a white stallion, and defeat the tyrant Amaris. Thus legitimizing his right to the throne.
He then make sure to kill off any person who could expose his goal ….. the entire Amaris family, as Amaris must have worked it out that he as vying for the throne also …..
However, his plan came unstuck when the House Lords sacked him as Commander of the SLDF.
So being the petty and vengeful man he was ….. he devised a way to ensure that all the Houses who had abandoned him as the only legitimate Ruler of SL would regret their action ….. so removed the lynch pin (The SLDF) and he abandoned his post with the exodus ….. thus allowing him to create a war of revenge against all the Houses that would become known as the Succession Wars…
This also explains why he abandoned his post (something no true warrior would ever contemplate) and ordered the Exodus …..
It would also allow him to the chance to become an Emperor once more when he could discover the new home for the SLDF ….. surely they would make him their ruler ……
And we see the true Alexander Kerensky ..... in the Prinz Eugen mutinied and he ordered his son be a member of the execution squad.
And again we see the true Alexander Kerensky in the DeChavilier Massacre …. When his SLDF became a renegade force, falling back to their old House ways, Kerensky ordered the execution of the rebels - Settlement after rebel settlement on all of the Pentagon Worlds was burned to the ground. (This means non combatants - men; women; children; infants – ie. genocide of an entire group of people). That was also describes as “orgy of death that followed General DeChavilier's ambush and slaying.” (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/DeChavilier_Massacre)
At this stage I would also state that the apple does not fall far from the tree when it comes to Nicholas Kerensky!
Thus I state that Alexander Kerensky was a far more evil figure than that of Amaris …. He was driven to obtain personal accolades from those around him – he was driven to ensure he was obeyed in all things – he was driven to be glorified by all as the great Statesman, Leader and General of the IS - and when he was rebuffed by the House Lords he became vindictive to such a state that the House Lords would regret for all time refusing his rule – he knew that by removing the SLDF Navy he would leave the IS in a state of war, it was inevitable.
I would not put it past him the reason he took 2 years to find the Pentagon Worlds was that he was half expecting the IS House Lords to send a delegation to find him and plead for his return to become the next First Lord …. And in so doing recognizing the great error they had inflicted upon the him and the IS.
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Might need to reread that time line. Kerensky was not out of the IS when the DC was already invading the FS.
Not so ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Draconis_Combine#Star_League
“……when General Kerensky led eighty percent of the SLDF into exile in 2784, he had also removed any impediment to outright warfare. Minoru Kurita declared himself First Lord in 2786, once his assault was underway.”
Two year gap in between the Exodus and the first shot of the First Succession War …..
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And funny how this was what caused the whole thing, but Amaris killing the first lord has nothing to do with it? Try again.
Kerensky predicted this would occur – Amaris was Kerensky’s most valuable pawn and Amaris may never even have known it but this was Kerensky’s aim all along. To allow someone to kill the Cameron family so that he could avenge them …. And in so doing become the only viable person to become the next First Lord ….
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Massive flaw? To decide the coming war would cause the Amaris conflict to look like a pair of babies in a slap fight and want no part of it? To have to go against the entire SLDF concept, as they were meant to be a police force, not someone that is destroying those around them?
Have you ever seen a Police force with warships where its members are given military ranks?
They were military! …. and they were used as a military force …. to ensure Kerensky could ride in on a white stallion and be seen as the conquering hero .
The facts hold – there is no mistaking all the evidence provided –In my opinion Kerensky is a Villain through and through!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/28/20 04:32 PM)
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ghostrider
06/29/20 01:08 AM
66.74.60.165
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Mistake one. The amount of ships Kerensky needed was not all from newly built ships. As we know he took warships with him, as the entire clan history tells that one, including the mutiny. The idea that some of the ships took close to a year and a half to build means there would be only one per slip made. Some would be faster, but that assumes the workers were still in the location, the yards were working, and the resources available.
Mistake two. Kerensky did not take all the warships with him. Even before they got out of the is, they had some malfunction. And the troops that stayed behind did have some initially. He had to reject a few, as they were not going to be ready by the time they were to leave.
Now the whole story of the SLDF needing more troops in the periphery sounds odd. They supposedly outnumbered the IS houses by a big margin, why would the forces in the periphery, which was fall less in number for all of them, then say the FS or DC, combined? I understand they guerilla tactics the Periphery used, but this is just wrong.
Thinking the IS would send a delegation removed the fact that they boobytrapped jump points. Changed course several times and just made it difficult for anyone to follow them.
The new theory follows most of the ones presented. Making it look like the person that wasn't responsible for something, look like they planned it all along. That is fine for the alt. But the logic failure dooms it to repeat the same mistakes that canon is claimed to have. To even begin to have Amaris near Richard, would mean leaning on all those that were surrounding him as protectors. NOTHING even supports this idea. Amaris had them ALL KILLED. But then Kerensky probably had the laser pistol made for Amaris to use. Well why not go all the way. Kerensky hired Amaris to kill Richard.
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Requiem
06/29/20 02:13 AM
1.158.192.25
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Mistake one.
Does not support the argument that there is a mistake …..
As, the 402 to 503 warships in question relate to those ships that survived the Amaris War – thus prior to the Amaris war the amount of ships available was far more …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine#Late_SLDF_4
It is assumed that the fleet prior to the Amaris War included
200 Cruiser Class
300 Battleship Class
800 Frigate Class
300 Destroyer Class
1000 Corvette Class
3200 Assault Class Total 5,800 War-Ships
Of these 2,600 ships mounted advanced weapons.
And at the end of the war only 402 to 503 of these 5,800 ships survived ….. still does not change the point that the SLDF has far more ships than that of any single House Navy!
Thus it is quite clear the SLDF must have access to a massive amount of yards to manufacture / service these fleets …. And included the quote “ …. to build large numbers of hulls. This is something that the Star League could do with ease. This in turn allowed them to build large numbers of large ships …”
And if any of these survived the SLDF should be able to rebuild their fleet numbs at a far greater rate than that of any House …..
Thus they should have been able to out produce any House and Keep the peace with their Navy alone if they remained within the SL …. It is only with Kerensky removing this fleet through his direct intervention do we have the Naval restriction to war being undone …. Thus with the removal of the Navy we have the First Succession War!
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Mistake two.
Again, does not support the argument that there is a mistake …..
Yes he did not take all the Warships with him ….. the ComGuards were the recipients
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
“Kerensky brokered a deal whereby Hayes could remain but had to obey Blake and the Ministry of Communications as the last vestige of the Star League, hidden from the Great Houses.”
Thus there were no available forces remaining in the IS to stop the House Lords from waging war on one another – Kerensky gets his revenge two years after the Exodus when the DCMS commence the First Succession War.
All other forces that were left behind were due to a communication mistake …. Read the above page!
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Now the whole story of the SLDF needing more troops in the periphery sounds odd. They supposedly outnumbered the IS houses by a big margin, why would the forces in the periphery, which was fall less in number for all of them, then say the FS or DC, combined? I understand they guerilla tactics the Periphery used, but this is just wrong.
Yes there is something wrong with this statement - it supports my conjecture Kerensky knew full well that the Coup was on the off – he needed Amaris to be the Villain of the Story so that he could become the Hero of the story, and in so doing (In his mind) become the next First Lord….. Kerensky ordered the majority of the fleet and the military to the Periphery, he allowed Amaris and his forces to take command so that they would stage a coup so that he could be the hero.
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Thinking the IS would send a delegation removed the fact that they booby trapped jump points. Changed course several times and just made it difficult for anyone to follow them.
As proven in previous forums you cannot booby-trap a jump point.
And as proven by the explorer corp. it is possible to track the Exodus fleet.
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The new theory follows most of the ones presented. Making it look like the person that wasn't responsible for something, look like they planned it all along.
The argument I have presented explains a great deal of irregularities within this time frame from Richards’ education, allowing Amaris forces to take command of the SLDF bases, to transferring almost the entire SLDF fleet / military to the periphery as only a very small amount should have been required in the first place. To killing off Amaris and his entire family why his war took so many years when his navy should have been 100 to one at the start of the Civil war.
As shown above he should have had close to 5,000 ships at the start of the Civil War – so why did he take so long in fighting his way through to Terra and retaking the planet with the aim of saving the Cameron Family? One swift Blitzkrieg and the war should have been over – so why take so long?
Lets put the situation in context
The president of Country Super Power send the majority of his forces half way around the world to fight a war against a 3rd Rate Army – in the mean time that same president invites the army of his countries enemy to take up garrisoning the bases of his army. Is it any wonder that President soon looses his country to his enemy due to a coup staged by his enemy and their forces?
Why would any Commander in Chief of an Army allow this to ever happen unless the Commander in Chief is in on the Coup for their own ends ……..
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Kerensky hired Amaris to kill Richard
The same way Katherine hired Ryan Steiner to kill her mother?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/29/20 02:44 AM)
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ghostrider
06/29/20 12:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Might need to reread the 2750 TRO where they said certain ships took up to 18 months to build. This information was not about 3025 or even houses in the SL era. This is about ships the SLDF was building.
Now the assumption that every ship Kerensky needed to leave the IS was built is where the mistake is at. A majority of those he took were those already in use by the SLDF.
Also missing from the response is just how many shipyards were not functioning while Kerensky was planned the escape option. I seriously doubt more then a quarter survived the Amaris war.
The second mistake was the implication that Kerensky took all the warships with him. You make it sound like the Hegemony did not have any defenses. This is not true at all. Granted, it didn't have anywhere near the forces it had before the exodus, it had some to protect what was left.
Misinformation is in the response to the needing more troops in the periphery and Kerensky's supposed plot. It sounds like they were called out before Amaris had contact with Richard. Amaris only offered Richard the use of RWR forces when the 'need' was pushed. As Kerensky was fighting the RWR forces, the idea that he expected Amaris to offer up guarding Terra is way out there. But I will offer a bone here. If you stick with the theory that he expected an assassination, he may have left the IS to cover up the participation that he would have played in it.
I think it is full of logic holes, but oh well.
It wasn't impossible to track the exodus fleet, just expensive in materials. As Comstar had a fleet that they were trying to avoid showing the houses, they had the resources to do this. They were not so short handed on ships that they were scrambling to cover basic necessities. Now the being unable to trap a jump point is yet another contradiction the developers have with their own rules. They don't want jump points trapped, as it stops a majority of the fights that could happen, yet their own story says it can be done. Rule flaws yet again.
The holes in the story seems to happen because the developers did not really see that someone would pick apart their lack of cohesion with each other, and just wrote parts of the plan, then filled it in later. We have seen this happen more often then it should, but they are a game developer. The writers the have working for them, don't seem to get information straight with each other. Then again, I would not be surprised if more then a bit of it was retconned in after the story was set.
The idea of having so many troops guarding the Hegemony means that the Amaris coup could not have gone down. So the developers pushed to remove those forces, so the civil war could take place. It seems they missed the whole expanded numbers thing to prevent the houses from ganging up on them, and the idiocy that a single periphery realm, already at war with the SL could do so much damage, causing the whole SL to fall. That is what happens when you don't really look at what you already have.
It seems you forgot the fact that not all the ships and forces could be moved from the Hegemony. So there wasn't the all warships that survived up until the Amaris hit was in the periphery. To do so, would be inviting the houses to remove the rulers and replace them with their own.
As you love to push forth, the general of the armies is bound to follow the orders of their leaders. As they had their orders to take down the periphery realms, that is what they focused on. The fact that Amaris was able to con Richard is the very basis for this to happen. To do otherwise, would be disobeying the orders of his superior. So which is it? The general disobeying his commander, or following orders that he did not agree with, as was the 'duty' of his position?
The lines before the suggestion of Kerensky hire Amaris didn't set the context to that? Where is says he probably had the laser pistol made just for such an event?
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Requiem
06/29/20 08:15 PM
1.158.192.25
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Might need to reread the 2750 TRO where they said certain ships took up to 18 months to build.
So? All this therefore indicates is that the number of individual ship yards available for the SLDF Navy must be immense.
What it also indicates is that Aleksandr Kerensky status as a Great General is a complete and utter Myth.
When considering the Naval assets of every Great House at this particular time averaged only 47 ships and that the SLDF Navy comprises over 5000+ ships. The number of Battlemech Divisions Amaris maintains at this time (100+) becomes irrelevant when the tactic of orbital bombardment is considered.
Also, if the Amaris Civil War started in 2766 and Operation Chieftain began in 2772 (6 years) this would indicate that the Amaris forces had access to the SLDF Naval ship yards for all of this period of time to build their own massive fleet of warships.
Again why would you give your enemy time to build up their forces and to dig in when you have 5,000+ warships and a simple Blitzkrieg could have ended the war in mere months after it started if you adopted a head hunter approach / orbital bombardment of every RWR military position to find and take the Amaris military CIC?
Answer – Kerensky knew Amaris would hunt down every Cameron and kill them – so Kerensky gave Amaris the time he needed to ensure this would occur ….. so that Kerensky’s ultimate plan to become the next First Lord would succeed …….
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I seriously doubt more then a quarter survived the Amaris war.
If the SLDF Navy has shipyards in numbers to produce ships in the thousands even if you have a quarter of them survive this still means that the SLDF can out-produce any single House by a massive amount.
Thus it is quite realistic, at this period of time, that Kerensky can maintain the status quo (peace) and over time rebuild – thus turning the SLDF military from a military organization into a UN peace keeping organization ie. NO Succession Wars.
Thus in performing Operation Exodus it shows his true barbaric nature in desiring revenge against the Inner Sphere and in particular the House Lords who rejected him from becoming the next First Lord ie. by removing the SLDF Navy he removed the last lynch pin to start the succession wars.
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The second mistake was the implication that Kerensky took all the warships with him.
Ghostrider, did you read what was written above on this topic?
Kerensky made sure to provide ComStar with all of the Military forces who had not defected to one of the Great Houses – they were therefore for all intense and purposes out of the great game by the time of the First Succession War.
As for the Hegemony – The Amaris Civil war has just ravaged this entire area of space – so good luck in rebuilding - The defense of the Hegemony at this period of time is linked to that of the remaining SLDF military units.
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Misinformation is in the response to the needing more troops in the periphery…
Correct …. Amaris is Kerensky’s most valuable pawn (and he may or may not even know it at this period of time).
Kerensky must have allowed RWR forces to take up these positions so that the Coup could occur …..
The ‘need’ for additional forces is purely a prefabricated ruse by Kerensky ….
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I think it is full of logic holes….
Where? – as stated it explains, utilizing Occam’s Razor, quite neatly why everything occurred ……given all the irregularities of this time period …..
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It wasn't impossible to track the exodus fleet,
As shown above it is quite possible that ComStar was provided with 100 warships (503-402=101), by the SLDF, at the time of the Exodus – With a fleet this large it would not have been that difficult to track the Exodus Fleet.
Thus again – no hole.
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The holes in the story seems to happen because the developers did not really see that someone would pick apart their lack of cohesion with each other, and just wrote parts of the plan, then filled it in later.
Then why did other games of this time period produce a game back story that where impossible to pick it apart?
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The idea of having so many troops guarding the Hegemony means that the Amaris coup could not have gone down.
If this was correct then that would mean that the RWR should have been on par with the SLDF with regards to Naval assets from the start of the War – thus the number of ship yards within the RWR must have been on scale with that of the SLDF.
Thus any yards not destroyed during the invasion of the RWR by the SLDF should have fallen into the hands of the Lyrans – thus the Lyran fleet numbers over time should have been far in excess of that of any of the other Great Houses ….
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…..the idiocy that a single periphery realm, already at war with the SL could do so much damage, causing the whole SL to fall. That is what happens when you don't really look at what you already have.
And yet this is supposed to be a believable back story from which the game world comes from ……
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It seems you forgot the fact that not all the ships and forces could be moved from the Hegemony.
Not forgotten …. Any number that is still within the Hegemony must be eliminated in the first days of the Amaris’ Coup – thus it comes down to how many ships Amaris has Vs. remaining number of SLDF Naval vessels.
Too many SLDF ships and the coup will not succeed - as SLDF captains will use orbital bombardment to reduce Amaris’ forces to scrap metal within the first week of the Coup …..
So how many could the SLDF Navy have within the Hegemony but a skeleton number of ships ie. the majority of the fleet is with Kerensky in the Periphery ….. to ensure the Coup actually works …. And this can only be achieved with Kerensky’s affirmation …… (more proof Kerensky was in on the Coup.)
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The general disobeying his commander, or following orders that he did not agree with, as was the 'duty' of his position?
If you were reading my hypothesis it is quite clear the “orders that he did not agree with” were actually exactly the orders that which Kerensky and Amaris wanted – both required a depleted Hegemony defense force …..
Amaris so that he could stage his coup …..
Kerensky so that he could ride in on his white horse – defeat the Villian – and become the next First Lord ….
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Where is says he probably had the laser pistol made just for such an event?
Where is it said with absolute proof that Katherine paid for the assassin? It is all supposition …. Victor was never able to prove her guilt …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/29/20 08:23 PM)
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ghostrider
06/30/20 03:47 AM
66.74.60.165
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So Comstar was actually a military force left to guard the Hegemony, but failed to even try? They got the military forces to do so, yet didn't? Hmmm. Sounds like Kerensky didn't just run out on the Hegemony, but left forces to defend it. With all the ships Comstar had, with the troops, they should have been able to hold more then a few worlds in the Hegemony. This runs counter to leaving it defenseless.
The idea that Kerensky left the IS to cover up the assassination is full of holes. The big one to start with is if he could cover it up, then why even bother leaving? Then it goes down hill from there.
The SL was at war with the RWR. There is no way that the SL would let RWR forces into the Hegemony, much less guard Richard. Just not going to happen. So that entire part of the story line is complete garbage. But again. The developers made a mistake in trying to fill in the blanks.
Every story can be picked apart. There is nothing that is proof against it. But most ignore some issues and focus in on what is going on, with a little backstory to make sense. To start off the 3025 era, they had a large political organization fall to pieces, such as the Roman empire, and those that were part of it, were trying to pick it apart, while defeating their enemies. It went south when they tried to make things work that aren't going to. The biggest military known to man, would need additional forces to remove forces that when combined, were barely a quarter of their might. The hole on RWR forces guarding Terra has been said. The only real assistance the SLDF needed was a place to repair and refuel. With the mobile ship yards, the repair was not as difficult as it was lead to believe.
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ghostrider
06/30/20 04:02 AM
66.74.60.165
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The fact that there were so many garrisons and such in the Hegemony, even with Kerensky having a chunk of it, would have been more then enough to stop Amaris from taking more then Terra without a major fight. And if they were allowed in to even close to being equal to the SLDF forces, is beyond bull. But oh well. I can still play the game without having all the I's dotted and t's crossed.
I know why the developers put so many ships in the periphery. To allow their story to advance the way they wanted it to. If you want to pick it apart, then do so. Just stop with the 'my idea is better then everyone's' concept. The only viable solution. It isn't.
The general disobeying his commander goes back to the stand and die concept you have been pushing. Richard wanted the periphery under heel, weither Kerensky wanted to destroy them to do it or not. This was also pushed forward by the house lords and even Richard's father. The conspiracy of him orchestrating the whole thing makes no sense. He did not order the attack. It was given to him by his commanding officer. The way it had to be fought was against the SLDF's idea of war. But they had to adapt, or be forced out. Kerensky could not just tell the council to stuff it, and walk away. So atrocities abound. Which might well have been why the houses didn't want to be part of it. They set it up, so they could ride in and 'save' the periphery from the evil SL.
Where is it said that Kerensky tried to remove the first lord? Where does it say he moved to take the power for himself? Oh wait. It says directly that he did NOT even attempt to take the power for himself. So the whole argument that he was the mastermind to remove Richard is junk. It may work in the alt, but not in anything that resembles canon. Which is yet another reason why the logic holes continue to show in the alt. Stop basing everything on canon, as you said it was not believable. It doesn't change when you throw in your version, as the base junk is still there.
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Requiem
06/30/20 05:53 AM
1.158.192.25
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The idea that Kerensky left the IS to cover up the assassination is full of holes.
Ghostrider, this statement suggests you did not even read or comprehend my new supposition? How can you say there are holes when it is clear you do not understand what was written.
Ghostrider ,Can I please suggest that you may need to re-read ‘the SUPPOSITION’ in order to understand Operation Exodus.
It is designed to remove the only force that could keep the peace in the Inner Sphere – this is Kerensky’s final act of revenge on the House Lords who refused to appoint him as the First Lord, a position in which his believes he is the only person capable of ruling. By removing the SLDF Navy – Kerensky is putting the House Lords into the same position he was in at the outbreak of the Amaris War – Alone and in a Nuclear War.
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So Comstar was actually a military force left to guard the Hegemony, but failed to even try? They got the military forces to do so, yet didn't? ….. This runs counter to leaving it defenseless.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_SILVER_SHIELD
“he (Kerensky) was able to convince the former general (General Lauren Hayes) to ask some of those troops who declined to join Operation EXODUS to assist the Ministry of Communications' reconstruction efforts.”
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The SL was at war with the RWR. There is no way that the SL would let RWR forces into the Hegemony, much less guard Richard. Just not going to happen.
And yet they did …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War
‘It was at this point that the First Lord revealed his secret treaty with Amaris, allowing for the deployment of Rim Worlds Republic Military units to take their (SLDF) place….they were given complete access to the SLDF bureaucracy, gaining control of more than half of the realm's Castles Brian and allowed to learn the workings of the Space Defense System. By December 2766, more than half of the Republican military had been redeployed to the Hegemony, equivalent to 16 divisions (144 Regiments) and twice as large as the remaining SLDF forces.”
NT: Transport requirements for 144 Regiments – where did the RWR obtain the necessary Jump-ship and Drop-Ship transport to enable this transfer from the RWL to the TH? If this is the cas then the RWL MUST HAVE a massive number of shipyards to produce this amount of ships.
So, what Happened to them? Did the SLDF destroy them all when they invaded the RWL in the early days of the Amaris War? For there is no reason for House Steiner to destroy them when they took over what was left over after the SLDF departed this area. Or were they targeted for destruction during the First and Second Succession War.
However, given every-ones’ surprise as to the number of ships the RWR had to transfer this massive number of forces this would indicate that many of the shipyards were located in Hidden Systems (far from prying eyes).
Thus the Lyrans should have a larger amount of ship-yards than is given circa 3025 – someone dropped the ball on working this out through the centuries …… again.
Can I suggest that someone go looking for all these hidden ship-yards sooner or later?
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The general disobeying his commander goes back to the stand and die concept you have been pushing. Richard wanted the periphery under heel, whether Kerensky wanted to destroy them to do it or not.
Again please re-read my synopsis,
Richard wanted the Periphery to be brought to heal …..
Amaris wanted a coup to kill Richard so that he could become the next First Lord ….
Kerensky, wanted Amaris to Kill Richard and his family so that Amaris could become the Villain of the story, so that he (Kerensky) could become the white knight of the story by killing Amaris …. And in so doing he (Kerensky) could become the next First Lord of the Star League when the House Lords place him (‘the one and only’ Kerensky) on his throne ………
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They set it up, so they could ride in and 'save' the periphery from the evil SL.
And yet the House Lords did absolutely nothing ……
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Where is it said that Kerensky tried to remove the first lord? Where does it say he moved to take the power for himself?
Ghostrider, Again please re-read my synopsis where it stated this was my HYPOTHESIS of the events based upon utilizing Occam’s Razor,
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I can still play the game without having all the I's dotted and t's crossed …… Stop basing everything on canon, as you said it was not believable. It doesn't change when you throw in your version, as the base junk is still there.
Ghostrider , then why have such a negative position(s) as to many of my opinions if it doesn’t matter that all the I's dotted and t's crossed?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/30/20 05:56 AM)
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ghostrider
07/01/20 11:20 AM
66.74.60.165
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The numbers of ships thought to be available for Kerensky to deal with Amaris is missing some information. The total would not be for the fight against Amaris, as the periphery war was being fought. More then a few ships would be destroyed in that before the war with Amaris.
As the war with the periphery as pretty much a foregone conclusion, the only question is when and how many lives lost, so it is doubtful that the SLDF was in a panic rush to make more. This IS NOT saying they would not make any during this time, it would not be enough to replace all lost. Otherwise, you are talking about a single state, even with full access the SL equipment, destroy around 4500 war ships.
The SDS systems should very well have had some secret codes to shut them down, just incase someone was able to hack them. Nukes is a strong likelihood of taking out a lot, but Kerensky had and used them as well, so something is off here.
The fact that Comstar had enough forces to hold the house lords out of more then a few worlds seems to have been ignored when saying the SDLF left the Hegemony defenseless. The only thing removing the SLDF from the Hegemony did, was spread out the houses plans to attack each other. The succession wars were going to happen. There was no stopping that, short of attacking all the houses, which would have destroyed all chances of the SL getting back together. At that point, a new leader would have to be done, otherwise, the whole system goes back into the trash. So the idea of leaving the IS was staged, doesn't work. It might get the house lords to realize the dismantling of the SL was wrong, it would also further destroy the Hegemony worlds, as the house lords would attack them. Just staying out of it, protecting the Hegemony would have been the action here, not fleeing.
Still don't believe the IS was looking for SL sites? This would be suggesting that the houses didn't use mechs to try and gain an advantage over the others. But then logic seems to be left out in a few things written.
144 regiments of units from a state that was being invaded by the SLDF sounds like some bs. Moving them is an issue, but the meer existence of them leads to the question of how did they still have that number? And with the assassination, Kerensky hunted down the rest. So how many units did the periphery have? How many did the SLDF have? Numbers don't add up.
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ghostrider
07/01/20 11:37 AM
66.74.60.165
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The disobeying orders has nothing to do with the wars at the time. It has to do with saying Kerensky was in complete control, yet still having to answer to Richard and the house lords. Kerensky was ordered to deal with the periphery. If he was in charge, then it would have changed how this was done. The fact he was ordered to pull more troops out of the Hegemony came from somewhere, other then Kerensky. So that means he did NOT have complete control.
He did not just order the de-escalation of the wars, to prevent his troops from being killed in large numbers. If I remember right, the periphery wars were going on for something like 20 years. A simple hit one with everything, then move to the next will all the forces you have mobile, not split them up for dealing with each one at the same time.
It makes me wonder if the house lords weren't going to strike, so wanted as many troops out of their hair as they could.
The bs that Amaris could get troops into the SL when at war with the SL is a major fail. Amaris was supposed to be the leader of the RWR, but couldn't tell his units to stand down? Not happening.
The house lords did nothing, as Amaris pulled off his plans before the houses could. The fact the LC was actively helping the RWR so they could move in after the war is a major treasonous action against the League. It is more likely the houses were scheming to take control over Kerensky taking it.
Occam's Razor is missing a few things. First off, the story says straight up, Kerensky was NOT trying to seize power. That alone is enough to stop the canon bashing. It is more likely that someone in the higher ranks, maybe one of those training Richard was trying to position themselves for the first lord. Kerensky would have turned it down, and did.
The real power running the SL while Kerensky was out, is so much more likely to be doing this then Kerensky. A mad grab for power is NOT what everyone is after. If it was, Richard would have died quickly after his father did.
I have an issue with the canon is wrong, and only viable solution is someone elses, which is using the same flawed backstory, saying their changes makes it all right. Canon has some huge flaws in it, but again. It is THEIR story, no matter how you want to say it. This is not an alt presentation, but saying this is the only way it should have gone. It isn't. Presentation is the problem. And for a few parts, I don't think the story would go down the road presented. Glossing over facts, and adding in things that are not only not there, but the evidence shows it wasn't even possible is put up.
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Requiem
07/01/20 04:50 PM
1.158.192.25
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The numbers of ships thought to be available for Kerensky to deal with Amaris is missing some information. The total would not be for the fight against Amaris, as the periphery war was being fought. More then a few ships would be destroyed in that before the war with Amaris.
First this based o the assumption that the RWR was a target in the first place – if 100% used against the TH how long should have Amaris’ Forces have lasted utilizing a Blitzkrieg / Headhunter tactic?
Second, https://www.sarna.net/wiki/SLDF_Task_Force_Outworlds
It contained SLDF Naval Task Force 82 – 31 Warships – a drop in the bucket when you consider the total amount if ships available to Kerensky at this point I time.
This is what is so ‘hinky’ with this time frame – if Kerensky did have over 5,000 warships why would you sit on the outskirts of the TH f or a couple of years to begin Operation Chieftan in 2772 – on the face of it, it does sound like a plausible strategy to conduct research before invading. However, when factoring in the TO&E of the enemy – 144 Regiments – 100 ‘Mech - how long would all the outlying units last against orbital bombardment followed up with ground force invasions.
The only real obstacle is Terra itself and the space defense system – though with an immediate invasion of terra this would have minimized Amaris’ time to prepare to an absolute minimum – again the question must be asked how long should have Terra lasted if the full might of the SLDF Navy was dispatched to Terra in one massive battle? My bet not long at all ….. when concentrated Naval bombardment is used upon single military objectives.
The only way this period becomes realistic is if the SLDF Navy numbers is reduced considerably – but to do this opens the SL and the SLDF to assault by the House units - and then there is also the issue of the final numbers of the SLDF Fleet – 402 to 503 ships?
Even if the SLDF only had this number of ships from the start how long would have Amaris’ forces lasted utilizing a blitzkrieg / headhunter / orbital bombardment strategy?
The answer is again a pitifully short period of time.
So again sitting on the outskirts of the TH until 2772 makes little to no sense whatsoever – so the idea that Kerensky is a great General must be held to question …. In all reality he is similar to that of Major General John P. Lucas (US VI Corp – Anzio) or General McClellan (American Civil War).
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The succession wars were going to happen.
This is a complete misnomer when the SLDF has 402 to 503 warsips.
This force alone kept the peace until 2 years after the Exodus occurred due to the fear they evoked – none of the houses can stand against this force / none of the houses dared to make a move against another house with this naval force located within the TH.
This is how the SL kept the peace for so many years – their Naval force when wielded would decimate any Great House – only internal wars were allowed – all wars that would expand out of control were quickly shut down by the Navy.
So in reality if Kerensky did remain and he did convert the SLDF from that of a military force to that of an UN Peace-Keeping force there is no evidence the Houses could have stood against them in keeping the peace.
So again the removal of this force is Lynch Pin in starting the Succession Wars – and can be laid at the feet of Kerensky.
As a General who was not only the aid to the previous commander of the SLDF but also the commander of the SLDF and the Regent of the SL he must have known this.
It is therefore a reasonable to postulate that the removal of the fleet was a deliberate act by him … and as such is an act of villainy ….. “vengeance” …. the base human emotions is the only verdict that can be applied to Kerensky at this period of time.
So the idea of leaving the SL is most definitely a staged event!
The question also must be asked how long would it have taken his forces to rebuild to their previous levels?
If the SL had fallen the TH could have become the UN Peace Keepers – an independent “House” to ensure all the other Great Houses did not step out of line.
Only by fleeing does the Succession war scenario pan out! And this can only eventuate due to Kerensky’s darker more villainous actions …..
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144 regiments of units from a state that was being invaded by the SLDF sounds like some bs. Moving them is an issue, but the meer existence of them leads to the question of how did they still have that number? And with the assassination, Kerensky hunted down the rest. So how many units did the periphery have? How many did the SLDF have? Numbers don't add up.
And yet they are a canon fact!
Amaris invaded with 144 Regiments - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War
And the SLDF has 20 Army Groups - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
So when pitted against one another considering the numbers available to Kerensky and his actions during this time period and the time taken to initiate Operation Chieftain suddenly do not make any sense whatsoever!
Consider the amount of time it took him to invade the periphery / RWR – then when you factor in all the other wars the SLDF was involved in during the past century before the Amaris Coup – there was no real time at all in sending out the fleet / army to when war commenced.
Then compare it to the time taken to initiate Operation Chieftain
There is something really ‘Hinky’ here when it comes to the time taken to start Operation Chieftain - and again that is at the feet of Kerensky.
So what is the real reason why he did not prosecute this war just like every other war before it?
There is something missing, some underlying reason as to why Kerensky did nothing and it does not relate to any military action that we are not being told – it is something nefarious that is behind the scene otherwise everything as written does not make for a logical and rational story.
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The fact he was ordered to pull more troops out of the Hegemony came from somewhere, other then Kerensky. So that means he did NOT have complete control.
Compare this to Nimitz and his relationship with Washington – If Washington had its way the Battle of Midway would never have occurred.
Also compare it the deployment of Modern Navies – CIC is usually in control, it is only with the interference of Government do problems arise due to political issues – and yet the danger is clear for all to see, especially Kerensky when Richard unveiled his alliance with the RWR and the secret provisions that would replace SLDF with RWR forces – Richard allowed in twice as many as was allowed within the document, and still Kerensky did nothing …… this is an incredibly strange move on the part of Kerensky and can only be considered rational if he agreed with it and went along with it …. So the question must be asked why? …. Simple obedience of orders at his level does not work, he must hold the line to protect the SL not the Office of the First Lord.
And in so obeying such an order proves the point that the Office of First Lord must come secondary to that of protecting the ideals and the SL state itself.
As commander in chief his duty is first to the state not the Office of the First Lord.
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It makes me wonder if the house lords weren't going to strike, so wanted as many troops out of their hair as they could.
If they were going to strike they would have at the end of the Amaris Civil War when the SLDF was at it’s most vulnerable and was still reeling from the damage it had sustained from the immediate battles it had just participated in. Plus there is the issue of fatigue – the SLDF would have been exhausted at the end – throwing them into another conflict would have put them into a severe disadvantage compared to the fresh House forces.
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The fact the LC was actively helping the RWR so they could move in after the war is a major treasonous action against the League.
Shouldn’t this be the DC …. And this was only under duress as the current Coordinator’s relatives were held by Amaris as hostages and that the former Coordinator begged his son on his death bed not to go against Amaris and risk his relatives lives?
So the scheming to take control is just not there ….. that is until they learn that all the Cameron’s are dead and that the position of First Lord is up for grabs!
Occam’s Razor – philosophy – the least number of assumptions make for the more likely explanation ….
If Kerensky was not trying to seize power – then why evacuate the majority of the SLDF to fight the periphery when you compare it to the amount of forces used to destroy the RWR (refer above web page for details) – then there is the issue of allowing the RWR to take up defensive positions within the TH – then there is the time gap to start Operation Chieftain – then there is the exodus itself (Kerensky proposed his decision in a vacant building in the middle of no-where) – then there is the issue of with the Navy in the TH there is no war – with the removal of the Navy – Succession War!
Sorry but the simplest is that Kerensky is out for himself … then everything makes sense
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A mad grab for power is NOT what everyone is after. If it was, Richard would have died quickly after his father did.
The true power lies with the military – ROME.
If anyone had tried without the backing of the military would have been squashed!
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but saying this is the only way it should have gone.
And where did I ever say that it should have gone as per my narriative? ….. what I stated from the get go was this was my hypothesis based upon all available data…..
If you assume that Kerensky is a Villian from the get go then all the strange issues within canon for this time period suddenly make more sense …..
The removal of the majority of the SLDF to the Periphery (using a sledge hammer to crack an egg) to weaken the TH and give Amaris the opening he needs … so that it gives Kerensky the opening he needs ….
The Time to start the invasion ….. give Amaris the time he needs to find and kill all the Camerons …. Thus Kerensky will not have to appear the tyrant when he takes over, when the other House Lords raise him to his exalted position ….
Etc. etc.
Which facts have I glossed over? What evidence is there that shows it wasn’t even possible?
As far as I can see everything I have suggested can be considered plausible when viewed through the assumption that Kerensky’s villainy starts from some time during his early days as Regent of the SL.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/01/20 05:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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The DC was the one to push the doubling of the house units as well as taxing the periphery which caused the revolts. Then refused to do anything to help remove Amaris, which was in League with the Kuritan family. Interesting. So Kerensky was supposed to have planned the assassination, yet the DC seemed to be the ones pushing for the whole thing. Almost like they wanted to destroy the SL.
I will have to check some of the books as I know one of them said the DC was invading the FS before Kerensky made his final jump out of the IS. Retcon information seems to be common anymore.
Also, the wiki says Kurita declared himself first lord after his forces were already engaged in battle.
The ship numbers isn't from the RWR front, but the TC front. I know they lost more then a few there.
The pause before hitting the TH after the assassination could well have included, but not limited to: trying to get more forces in place, gaining intel, trying to get the house lords to do something besides resist everything that was going on...
The idea of bombarding the TH worlds would be the last possible military option, as it would mean destroying the very thing he had sworn to protect. Doing so would negate the oath of protecting the TH.
Also, the SDS system was placed in other systems besides Terra, as WOB only fixed it in a few systems, not built it from scratch.
Do you believe that the house lords did NOT have something in the SL charter to prevent the SLDF from invading them? The succession war would have gone on no matter what. This is why the SL was dissolved before hand. For Kerensky to do anything like stepping in to stop the succession war, would be in pure violation to that. Which may well be one of the main reasons he decided to leave. There was no saving the IS at that point.
A point comes to mind. The SLDF was not in the business to bombarding worlds to oblivion. If it was, the periphery states would have been destroyed a lot more thoroughly as well as quicker resolution to that war. So that entire idea is not something that would happen. They did some with Amaris's forces. But it was NOT the primary way they fought. Why have ground forces if it was?
The numbers are not supported by the storyline. 15,000 regiments and an equal number of ships just does not fit with the downfall of the SLDF. Yes, they were spread all over the place, but this is just not something that even comes close to the storyline. The SLDF was supposed to be better, yet for them to have fallen like this?
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ghostrider
07/01/20 06:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe you should have seen by now, the SLDF was the U.N force of the IS. All houses contributed to it, which is why it was able to operate correctly. The members of the U.N. were the ones to dissolve the SL. There was no authority to be had in order to stop the houses from fighting. It is very likely each house would have demanded the SLDF come in on their side to remove the other pretenders to the throne. Which goes back to what was said before. The SLDF would have had their civil war sooner had they stayed. Also, the game could not develop as planned. The massacre would have caused the DC to be eliminated before the end of the first war. That would had destroyed any chance for 5 houses fighting each other. The FC would not happen, as the FS and LC would have been fighting each other in the DC territory. SO poor story or not, this would have caused the entire premise of the game to fail before it even started.
Kerensky was not commander in chief. He was second or lower. And protecting the TH would conflict with obeying the first lord. So which was the more important oath? There is no way to uphold both in this case? And the house lords would have continued this. He pulled out of the politics as he could, since it was no win for anyone in the SLDF had they stayed. This is the conclusion he would have come to.
You suggest Kerensky was grabbing power, then say Richard would not have died quickly after his fathers death, and say the military would has squashed an attempt? You do not see the star size logic hole in this?
The entire discussion of anything to do with the alt, you said your vision is the only viable way it could go down. Where does that mean it wasn't saying your vision is the only correct one?
The entire story of Kerensky not even using the power of the regency for starts. That follows the PRINTED situation that he did not want the power. If otherwise, they would have said that, just as they retconned the Wolverine story with the nukes. That came out long after the clans invaded. So which is it? The printed story is the one to follow, or did the Wolverines plan the operations to go off, only to have it backfire on them? This is the same situation.
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Requiem
07/01/20 09:18 PM
1.158.192.25
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Council_Edict_of_2650
<Nt. Spelling Mistake on the above Page – has Tadea Amaris where it should have Tadeo Amaris.>
In 2752 The High Council of the Star League introduces amendments to reduce the limits of the Edict Council of 2650. It is not an issue of one house pushing an agenda to double their military forces. It is an issue of ALL GREAT HOUSES pursuing an agenda of increasing their forces by any means necessary.
Periphery limits on military forces were much harsher than on those of the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere.
Under the Regency of Tadeo Amaris The DC (in secret over a three month period) provided the RWR with an additional 9 BattleMech Regiments of various sizes.
Rather than demand that Amaris (RWR) disband these additional forces, or send in the SLDF, the Edict of 2650 is amended to allow the RWR Military to be increased to 12 ‘Mech and 8 Conventional.
In addition the Edict 2650 is amended to ultimately allow each of the Great Houses to findi ways to circumvent their limits which were imposed by the Council Edict of 2650 by one means or another.”
2760
This RWR is allowed 30 Mech and 10 Conventional – however an internal Rim Royal Guard Act allows the RWR to expand its military secretly
<Nt: And yet ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rim_Worlds_Army
This is where the figures really begin to get strange …….
By April 2765 – RWR Navy is at 270 Warships (Amaris Civil War starts in 2766 – Note at the end of the Amaris civil war the SLDF Navy has been reduced to 402 / 503 warships and at its start the RWR Navy has only 270 Warships – as seen there is something very ‘Hinky’ with the War when the RWR fleet is so small in comparison to that of the SLDF’s Fleet numbers – this therefore must question the legitimacy of Kerensky’s status as a Great General and that of his Tactics in remaining outside the TH for many years before starting Operation Chieftain – I would also like to ask how the SLDF fleet which should be above 5,000 ships becomes so devastated it is reduced down to 402 / 503 ships when the enemy has only 270 Warships at the start of the war. Am I missing something?)
(Compare this to the Great House Navy as at 2765 ….. AFFS…..51; DCMS….42; FWLM…47; CCAF…..37; LCAF …...60; This would indicate that the RWR must have a Navy technological advantage above that of any great House as at 2765 ….. so where did all disappear to?)
Officially ………. As at 2765 - Cavaliers ….. 4; Chasseurs ….6; Dragoons…… 18; Fusiliers ……. 8; Lancers ……… 10; Legionnaires …….. 11; Regulars …….. 6; R. Guards ……….. 14; Imperial Division …….4 (1 Division = 3 Brigades; 1 Brigade = 3 Regiments) Thus 36; R. Dragoon ………… 1; R. Lancers ………….. 1; R. L. Lancers ……….. 3; Patriots ……………… 10 ………….. Total ……. 128 (Whereas Council Edict of 2650 says they should only have 40)
However 144 Regiments were transferred to the TH by 2766 and this was in no way the majority of the forces he had available.
(Again where are all the Military Industrial Complexes within the former Rim Worlds Republic that were created to maintain such a fighting force?)
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The idea of bombarding the TH worlds would be the last possible military option, as it would mean destroying the very thing he had sworn to protect.
The Military are not bombing the entire world – this is strategic – ie. find the military concentration of foces / base of operations and eliminate this from space …..
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the SDS system was placed in other systems besides Terra.
Again only Terra matters as that is were Amaris and his CIC are – kill the head of the snake ……. Or should I say shark …..
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Do you believe that the house lords did NOT have something in the SL charter to prevent the SLDF from invading them?
Any internal war the SL were not allowed to interfere …..
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Why have ground forces if it was?
Mop up operations ….. boots on the ground to say we own this bit of land …..
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The SLDF was supposed to be better, yet for them to have fallen like this?
This is where the numbers really do not equate with the issue on hand …. Amaris’ fleet and ground forces are just way too small to defeat the 5,000+ warships and the 20 Army groups of the SLDF.
The disparity in their sizes does not equate – The Civil war shouldn’t have even lasted 6 months from the time the main fleets arrives at the TH Borders …..
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The SLDF would have had their civil war sooner had they stayed.
Sorry no ….. the military tithe occurred for the entire duration of the SL …. There is equal assumption to believe this could have occurred at any time during the SL history – and it didn’t – thus the probability it would completely fracture under Kerensky is a little hard to believe unless every house had agitators within every unit to stir up fractional discord based upon a person’s original nationality. The MPs would be quick to quash this!
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the game could not develop as planned.
Sorry again …. Yes it could it just needs more realistic military numbers / strategy / Houses getting involved earlier etc. or a longer time frame in the fall of the SL empire (similar to Rome).
As is the numbers just do not add up in relation to the Kerensky – Amaris Civil War – Kerensky should have just walked over Amaris given the size and scope of the SLDF Navy.
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Kerensky was not commander in chief. He was second or lower. And protecting the TH would conflict with obeying the first lord.
This is where a little history is required ….
Post Richard’s Ascendency to the Throne and up to the time Amaris took the throne Richard is technically in command over the military and he can provide overall mission goals (such as bringing the Periphery into line) – However tactical and strategic command resides with the Commander in Chief of the SLDF as to how this will be achieved as well as which units will be involved.
However as stated above Kerensky’s ultimate oath is to the State and not the Individual sitting in the Chair.
Once Amaris declares he has taken over the Government – Kerensky automatically becomes Regent / Government in Exile (Refer Charles de Gaulle – WW2 as well as other Governments in exile who resided in London at that time)
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You suggest Kerensky was grabbing power, then say Richard would not have died quickly after his fathers death, and say the military would has squashed an attempt? You do not see the star size logic hole in this?
Missing the point …
The only threat to the First Lord is the Commander in Chief of the SLDF and the people as a whole.
If history has taught us anything it is that assuming power through the direct application of force is a quick way to becoming labeled a dictator, and from there to a executioners block …..
However if the person assuming power is placed in that position by their people and the Lords of the realm then their government will last generations …..
This is where I have the belief that Kerensky has a world view similar to that of an Upper English boy of the late 1800’s early 1900’s who believes in the English boys own adventure books of this era …..
And this is what Kerensky attempting to accomplish through his villainy ……
First he got a patsy, “Amaris”, to kill off the entire Cameron line …. Without even realizing that this is what Kerensky wanted him to do in the first place …..
Second, he and the SLDF were then able to then ride in like the avengers they were with him playing the main part as the Hero of the story on a white horse ….
Kerensky then defeats the Villain in a war for the ages ….. Harrah for Kerensky ….. he gets the people to demand his appointment as First Lord ….. Harrah for Kerensky …..!!!!
Lastly, he expected that House Lords to put him on the throne ….. and they promptly sacked him …… booo / hisssss!!!!!
So rather than stay and maintain the peace with the only viable force that could do so (The SLDF) he ran way and ensured the succession war would commence ….. thus getting his vengeance upon the House Lords and the people who failed to make him the next First Lord ……
Simple ……
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you said your vision is the only viable way it could go down.
Where? …. I stated this was my hypothesis based upon the events …….
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The entire story of Kerensky not even using the power of the regency for starts.
Ghostrider, have you considered researching the duties of a Regent or even comparing it to the Lyran Triumverate way in the future?
As for the Wolverines being in the same situation, sorry but I cannot see how this can ever be considered the same.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/01/20 09:37 PM)
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ghostrider
07/02/20 12:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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The information was retconned in, and someone didn't check the numbers. Even with a secret build up, this has to be wrong. The RWR had more warships then the entire house lords combined? Not a chance.
The factories that were building units were all destroyed, or at least the ones the SL knew of when the rage destruction happened. Yes, some secret ones could have survived.
Even with 1000 warships sent to each periphery realm, there would still be 1000 or so in the TH. So again, the numbers do not allow the Civil war to even begin. One possible thing is Amaris being able to manipulate where they are, but that is a big leap.
To get to Terra, they had to go thru systems that did have the SDS as well as needing to remove ALL forces loyal to Amaris. They did NOT just leave the enemy in their rear. Part of the reason to destroy the RWR entirely. Some escaped, but it wasn't from a lack of trying.
With the numbers, the Amaris war should never have been able to happen. Doesn't matter later on. It should never have happened.
The SLDF would have gone into a civil war once the Succession wars were going. The MP's are soldiers that are drawn up from the houses as well as the TH. It is more likely for some to start attacking or at least harassing those soldiers from the other realms. To suggest otherwise is leaving out vital facts. It would definitely have started between the FS and DC soldiers with the massacre. That is IF the high command didn't get involved afterwards. And the use of nukes would have had them shift from neutral to having to fight all of them at once. With the numbers they had dealing with the periphery, there is no way they had that many forces to begin with. There would be no way to prevent the succession wars.
The first lord has the ability to override the head of the army when ever they want. Smart ones know they can not come close to being as skilled as the person in that position, so leave it to the professionals. But they can change plans. That fact is part of being the ruler. It is why countries failed in objectives from time to time.
Take the idea of numbers and apply it to before the take over. The SL should have been able to walk all over the periphery quick enough to prevent Amaris from even getting close to Richard. So the analysis is off. Source of the problem, not the result of the problem.
Richard could have been killed by any house, or even just a single person. Proving it was a ploy by a specific government would be why the use of military force would not be used, until such accusations are proved. Amaris had no alibi, as he did it in front of witnesses, though not sure if it was on the news live.. The witnesses would all be put to death to cover it up, if it wasn't.
As stated, the ENTIRE alt subject has been filled with the only solution. It was said before the conspiracy of Kerensky planning this, so suggesting the concept has changed is unbelievable at this point.
And there was no way to maintain the peace without seizing full power. To do anything against the house lords, which are now the ones in command, would mean they would all have to be branded as traitors, which would need proving, and that would take years. In this case, innocent until proven guilty goes against a quick resolution. And as the house lords pulled out of the SL accords, that mean the TH was the ONLY one still part of it. No governmental leadership meant no say in anything. It was a no win situation at the best. At the worse, he would have had to completely destroy the TH in order to go to war with all houses. The damage to the TH was horrible with Amaris, it would continue with fighting the houses. Doesn't matter if he had 1000 times the number of the houses, they would still do more damage to the TH. In this case, the IS had the resources to perform things like strikes on supply lines.
And the Wolverines are considered the same when you actually read what was written. The developers would have retconned in the fact Kerensky would seize control. The Wolverines were not vindicated until much later in the game, as the story of what happened was NOT in the game when the clans invaded. So yes. It is the same thing. It was information that was put in after the game developed.
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Requiem
07/02/20 10:51 AM
1.158.192.25
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Let me now add in some additional information utilizing the following wiki page ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
…. and then an excel sheet utilizing all 20 of the SLDF Armies, whist considering the following information contained therein ….
BattleMech Divisions – consist of two ‘Mech brigades, one infantry brigade, one armored Brigade
Mechanized Infantry Brigade – two mechanized infantry brigades, one ‘Mech Brigade, one armored brigade.
Infantry Divisions – consist of two non-mechanized infantry brigades, one light ‘Mech Brigade, one armored Brigade
Jump Infantry Divisions – two jump infantry brigades, one light ‘Mech brigade, one armored brigade, two wings
A Division consists of 3 to 4 Brigades …. and a Brigade consists of 3 Regiments.
Ground Units:-
Heavy Assault – heavy-to-assault BattleMech units + fourth company of artillery
Battle – medium-to-heavy BattleMech
Striker – light-to-medium weight BattleMech
Dragoon – heavy-to-assault BattleMech, tanks and hovercraft
Hussar – medium-to-heavy BattleMechs, tanks and hovercraft
Light Horse – light-to-medium BattleMechs and vehicles
This originally provides the following information:
Royal BattleMech Divisions ………………… 25
Royal Mechanized Infantry Divisions ….. 28
Royal Jump Infantry Divisions …………….. 13
Royal Infantry Divisions ……………………….. 3
BattleMech Divisions ……………….………… 95
Mechanized Infantry Divisions ………….. 165
Jump Infantry Divisions …………………….. 62
Infantry Divisions ……………………………… 42
Independent Regiments …………………… 271
Once calculated this provides the a more definitive information package regarding the Land Army of the SLDF as at 2765 …..
BattleMech Regiments ………… 1,299
Additional ‘Mech Ground Units:
Heavy-to-Assault …………………..18
Medium –to-Heavy ……………… 18
Light-to-Medium …………………. 23
Light …………………………………….360 …. Total ….. 1,708 Regiments
Combined Arms Units:
Heavy-to-Assault ‘Mechs + Vehicles ….. 72
Medium-to-Heavy ‘Mechs + Vehicles … 49
Light-to-Medium ‘Mechs + Vehicles ….. 49 …. Total …. 170 Regiments
Armor Units:
Armor …………………………. 1,299
Heavy Tank …………………. 4
Medium Tank ……………… 1
Light Tank …………………… 1
Hover …………………………. 3
Wheeled ………………….…. 1 ….. Total …… 1,309 Regiments
Artillery Units:
Artillery ………………………… 6 Regiments
Infantry:
Infantry………………..…….. 360
Jump Infantry …………….. 45
Mechanized ……………….. 561
Non-Mechanized ……….. 270
CAAN Marine …………….. 15
Marine ………………………. 2
Royal French ……………… 3 (approximately)
French Infantry ………….. 3
French Cavalry …………… 2
Grunt Infantry …………… 1…… Total …….. 1,262 Regiments
Aerospace:
Wings ……………………….. 165
Then when you compare this to Amaris’ 144 Regiments (100 Mech) within the TH in 2766 the idea of a straight up fight between the Kerensky and Amaris becomes an absurd concept.
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To get to Terra, they had to go thru systems that did have the SDS as well as needing to remove ALL forces loyal to Amaris.
Ghostrider – this thinking is 2D chess – remember what the DCMS completed in the canon version of war of 3039? – Kerensky can use hidden systems below or above the normal TH shipping lanes to enter into the Terran system from an undisclosed location – thereby gaining an immediate surprise. All he then needs to do is fight his way through to Terra and perform a drop on top of the Capitol city with his eliet ground forces, and in a matter of months / 1 year max., after word was received as to Amaris’ treachery he will be either dead or captured.
From that point on if the remaining RWR forces and the RWR itself wants a fight I am sure Kerensky would be up for it ….. but I doubt they would last very long ……
Thus the entire Kerensky-Amaris Civil War becomes a completely strange event when attempting to understand it from a Canon perspective …..
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With the numbers, the Amaris war should never have been able to happen. Doesn't matter later on. It should never have happened.
Agree
The only way around this is if there is some super weapon – Star Wars: Death Star / Star Blazers: Wave Motion Gun – than is used to keep Kerensky at bay ….. so were are the plans for this super weapon?
Once word gets out every House would want this …….
So once again there is something ‘Hinky’ with regards to the canon history.
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Richard could have been killed by any house,
Succession plan in place ….. the House would have to kill off every member of the Cameron Line in one hit to cause an issue with regards to the First Lord position.
Sorry but I cannot really see how this canon setting works ….
If the war is over than less than one year and the RWR surrenders prior to an invasion by the SLDF the idea of the House Lords sacking Kerensky becomes hard to comprehend.
Sorry to say but In my opinion this history needs to explained in such a way as it can make sense …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/20 05:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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Hidden systems? Like the ones the SLDF knows about and Amaris has access to? He did have access to information like this.
Also, the map of the IS contains only 2d information. The systems may well be almost 30 light years above, or below the 'level' of Terra's rotation. So 2d thinking is exactly what the above and below concept shows. They do not show a 'side' view of the IS which would show the rollercoaster set up of stars in the IS. There will be more then a few with nothing but maybe a mining outpost or science station, but that is also up in the air.
The SLDF would have to make sure there is no units behind them as they advance. To do otherwise, would result in far more of the RWR forces escaping 'justice'.
The house lords would not have to kill them all, just until they reached one that would be a puppet for them. Which would mean the others houses would be doing the same. It would not be easy.
There are questions that would like to see the real answers to, but this comes from trying to write a story about it and try to rewrite it as more ideas came up. Had they not tried to do the story, none of this would even be a thought. The original short version was fine for making sense. The extra details throws it all out the window for some things.
But again. A rewrite is not going to fix anything until they get the rules straight and get the writers to stop adding in crap that isn't there. And put in things that were there, and skipped over.
The idea of writing to keep the reader occupied is what has caused a lot of this.
No matter what they think, they could not wipe out all of the Cameron line. Those that would come forward would die, but there has to be some unknown relatives to it. Even if they are 3 generations distant from the full blood line.
The idea of the lords sacking Kerensky is easy to comprehend. They wanted the most powerful man in the IS at the time removed from his power position. Each had their own thoughts and did not want Kerensky to get in their way, which would have happened if they let him keep the regent position. He would have rescinded the size limits of the houses, as well as removed some of the other blatant power grabs.
I would suspect that all the lords had the notion that they could force the others to bow to them, but could not even begin as long as Kerensky was in power.
As one of the books said, one leader was shocked Kerensky left and said something like, 'how can he just leave? Who will be here to repair it all once we knock ourselves silly?'
So the succession wars would go on wether he stayed or not.
The question would be wether to get involved or just sit back and fix the TH while the others fight it out. To intervene, would cause even more damage, as the TH people would see it as fighting a losing battle, while the houses would see it as the TH trying to enforce their ideas upon them.
The entire IS and periphery would become a major guerilla battleground. His own officer corps would start resenting him from taking down their favored lord and start resisting orders. This would lead to the SLDF civil war that you suggest would never happen. They had issues with this even before they left the IS. It was dealt with or so they thought.
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Requiem
07/02/20 09:57 PM
1.158.192.25
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Hidden systems? Like the ones the SLDF knows about and Amaris has access to? He did have access to information like this.
From the point of view of navigating in space – for every one world upon the IS map there is a couple of thousand systems surrounding this one.
Amaris has 270 Warships
Kerensky has approximately 5,800 Warships
The Mathematical probability Amaris would be able find all the fleets before they arrive in the Terran System is negligible (remember all fleets would be converging and coming in from a different vector based upon their original location within the IS / Periphery), and even if his (Amaris’) Navy did ….. considering the disparity in numbers between his fleet and the SLDF they would wish they didn’t.
The only way he (Amaris) can inflict damage on the SLDF is to pull everything back (go on the defensive) to Terra itself and fortify this one planet with every SDS system and warship available and even then you would have to be very quick about it. Amaris has a limited time - to the time Kerensky discovers the Coup occurred and from there the travel time from the Periphery to the Terran System - whilst coordinating at the same time all the fleets scattered throughout the IS to converge on Terra on a particular estimated date and time (similar to what Hanse Davion was able to replicate during the 4th Succession War.)
And even then one Admiral with a significant fleet under their command who was close enough to Terra could Jump into the Terran System and take him out prior to Kerensky’s arrival.
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The SLDF would have to make sure there is no units behind them as they advance. To do otherwise, would result in far more of the RWR forces escaping 'justice'.
The RWR military is not at fault here – the only individual at fault is Amaris himself. Bring him to justice and the Civil War ends. Thus if the fleet offers amnesty to those RWR forces who haven’t committed a crime how long before the RWR forces remove Amaris and hand him over and return home without a shot being fired? (Plus within the RWR how long would it take for every Amaris crony to be rounded up ad brought to justice to forestall an invasion by the SLDF?
(Consider ‘The Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Die Neue These’ as an excellent example of how such a situation can be dealt with very quickly by a competent leader - Look at Siegfried Kircheis during the Imperial Civil War.)
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The house lords would not have to kill them all, just until they reached one that would be a puppet for them.
How? …. With the arrival of the SLDF how close would a House Lord get to the new First Lord?
Kerensky would have no choice at this stage but to put into place new security reforms to ensure the safety of the First Lord – ie. the Amaris issue can never occur again. That is the secret service would be increased to a massive level.
Once this occurs the puppet can cut its own strings.
At this stage no single house can survive the combined might of the SLDF.
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The original short version was fine for making sense. The extra details throws it all out the window for some things.
And yet there are many science fiction stories that are produced each year that are written with an opening narrative that cannot be shown to have an issue with regards to the numbers / people involved in the war that establishes the beginning of the story.
This is why editors and fact checkers are so important.
Either write a story with a level of believability or walk away ….. an origin story, like a house, must be built on a solid foundation – just look at the mess the Clan Invasion produced due to level of mistakes found therein.
In my opinion, a re-write is the only way forward …. Make it believable!
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The idea of the lords sacking Kerensky is easy to comprehend. They wanted the most powerful man in the IS at the time removed from his power position.
Actually this is again another poorly written issue ….. The House Lords cannot sack him unless they have someone in the wings to take his place (better the Devil you know) ….. and given the level of disharmony between the House Lords their ability to find a new CO of the SLDF will not happen any time soon. Thus if they did sack him – his XO automatically takes over as his – so is this a better situation?
Then there is the legal issue – if there isn’t a First Lord and all the Great Houses refuse to act as per the Star League Legal requirements of the High Council – the Star League is then in a de facto state of being dissolved – and as such thus the House Lord’s Order to fire Kerensky suddenly becomes unenforceable and Kerensky is once more the CO of the SLDF.
I have also given the issue succession a great deal of thought – and the idea of Designated Survivor – if the First Lord (and all the successors are dead) – and at the same time the High Council is removed from the equation there must be a Designated Survivor – Thus the Highest Star League Court (Department of the Attorney General - the Supreme Court, located in the District of Columbia on Terra) as well as its Constitutional Lawyers would be required to figure this out ….. and once this is determined a new First Lord should be enthroned …. And the Star League goes on …….
And in the interim Kerensky would be the Regent (Defender of the Realm).
The Star League as an entity should be able to survive this constitutional issue ….
As written the canon story is once more too simplistic …. In reality the issue would have been determined by the Supreme Court if the High Council was unable to derive a solution!
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I would suspect that all the lords had the notion that they could force the others to bow to them, but could not even begin as long as Kerensky was in power.
This would place General Aaron DeChavilier (Deputy Commanding General of the SLDF) in command.
The DC would rather have Kerensky – as he was born on Kestrel within the Federated Suns so again why would the DC remove Kerensky and put a Fed Rat in charge of the SLDF?
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how can he just leave? Who will be here to repair it all once we knock ourselves silly?'
So the succession wars would go on whether he stayed or not.
This statement is built upon a faulty premise in that the SLDF does not have the ability to stop a war between the Great Houses and their militaries ….
Given that actual canon figures for the SLDF is 5,800 warships and over 1,700 Mech Regiments
Versus House Fleets that do not exceed 60 vessels each the point is ludicrous once more; the SLDF can stand off and destroy every House with ease.
Thus there will not be a Succession War as Long as the bulk of the SLDF remains within the IS.
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To intervene, would cause even more damage, as the TH people would see it as fighting a losing battle, while the houses would see it as the TH trying to enforce their ideas upon them.
Really?
First, the Great House Navy as at 2765 ….. AFFS…..51; DCMS….42; FWLM…47; CCAF…..37; LCAF …...60; and the RWR ….. 270; Total fleet complement …… 507 ships
SLDF Total Fleet Complement 5,800
That’s a ratio of 11 to 1 in favor of the SLDF.
So again unless the Houses and the RWR have wave Motion Guns this is going to be over quickly ….
Second, how could this ever be considered to be a loosing battle when considering the vastly superior military of the SLDF? This just does not make sense?
Third, as for the TH enforcing their ideals upon them …. How long has the SL been in existence? …. How long has it been since each of the Houses has joined the SL? ….. ever since these dates has the TH / SL has influenced these Houses with their ideology ….
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The entire IS and periphery would become a major guerilla battleground.
Only if the SLDF was surverly damaged within the Kerensky – Amaris Civil War …. Or battle to be more exact – as it would only take one battle on Terra and Amaris and his forces would be no more.
So no not likely – they would be quickly put in their place once more – just as they had been so many tmes before.
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His own officer corps would start resenting him from taking down their favored lord and start resisting orders.
Who are you referring to here? More information required ….
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the SLDF civil war
The SLDF has existed with foreign forces for how many centuries?
Removing Kerensky will only unify the SLDF behind his successor …..
If the assumption is to create factionalism within the fleets / Armies of the SLDF so that all the SLDF breaksi into its constitutional parts – then returns their parent Houses – and from there a massive Civil war erupts because the there is no longer a force large enough to keep the peace between the Great Houses then may I suggest that a more realistic and comprehensive story be considered.
As is the destruction of the Cameron Line – and the Great Houses becoming petulant about how should lead the SL is not a justification for the SLDF to disband.
There needs to be a massive outbreak of Fascism / Nationalism within the SLDF prior to it dissolving into its constitutional parts and this issue has not been established within the narrative of the story.
So again … in my opinion ….. if the aim of the story is to create a universe of warring states the underlying story needs a massive rewrite as the underlying Canon evidence does not support the hypothesis. In that the Amaris – Kerensky war could have been as damaging as it was unless there is something that has never been included into the story so as to explain how Amaris’ forces of 270 ships and 144 Regiments + those on the RWR worlds could defeat 5,300 to 5,400 SLDF Warships and over 4,000 Regular Army Regiments ….
So again there is issues that need to be resolved if there is to be a believable story …. The underlying issues need to be fixed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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