Karagin
02/14/20 09:27 AM
70.118.172.64
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That was the question Hanse had to figure out, now it makes some sense to hit the Combine from two fronts since your new powerhouse of a nation (the Fed-Com) needs to show its teeth and not be a paper tiger.
Hanse had to know that the Combine wasn't going to be an easy fight, and while it would be impressive to take a chunk away from them and hurt them, it should have been clear that they would not get a knock out blow, not against the Combine and not with Theodore and his changes to the DCMS and other things that Hanse found out about a bit too late.
So, IMVHO, the Fed-Com should have finished off the Capellans. Yes it was the weaker of the two by far, and yes it would the big kid on the block picking on the hurt smaller kid, but it would have been a better way to show the military skills of the Fed-Com and to show that they had learned from the 4th War and removed a future set of threats. Flipside, would be a possible stronger FWL since they would be crapping themselves to death over the idea of an enlarged Fed-Com on their borders and the Combine would get to see things unfold and learn as well, plus they could rebuild their military and better prepare for fighting that would come their way as well.
I know I have left out things, but hey what better way to open the floor then let y'all fill in the missing stuff and given your thoughts on this one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 12:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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As said in other threads, the CC should have lost Capella in the 4th war. Even just heavily raided. I do understand the thought of a weak enemy on one border to take out the biggest threat to your realm on the other would be a good choice. Also removing the weak enemy placed a more powerful one on your entire border.
It is very possible ego is what made that decision. Hanse wanted to be the one to break, or at least start the downfall of the DC. Another big factor would probably be retaking worlds lost in the 4th war. I honestly think Comstar was the biggest reason for the DC to repel the FC. But that is moving away from the topic.
The idea of the bully picking on the smallest opponent seems right, but in the supremacy war, being the last one standing is the end result. Eventually, you will need to do so, as some will never surrender.
With the St. Ives Compact, limited strikes could have done more then a full out invasion. Having Candice trying to bring peace to the CC might well have played well, but that was not meant to be. Kai should have been able to take up that goal, yet TPTB, didn't want that.
And yes. That would have lead to the 2nd SL falling before it did.
Still. They could have opened up raiding the CC heavily before hitting the DC to avoid any big military actions on their back sides. The rebuilding might well have been the issue for that not happening. It would also have shown Comstars hand to be no doubtedly against Hanse, so even media manipulations would not be able to do much about it.
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Requiem
02/14/20 03:08 PM
1.158.235.15
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And the post entitled
Alt. History Operation Rat Revival – The Capellan’s Fall War (3039-40) and the new FC Capital World.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/14/20 07:59 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
And the post entitled
Alt. History Operation Rat Revival – The Capellan’s Fall War (3039-40) and the new FC Capital World.
Thanks for that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 09:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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This thread is not asking for advertisement to an alt thread. It is asking about the canon story of if Hanse was correct hitting the DC, not the CC.
It would have been a huge victory if the FC could have taken the DIeron district from the DC. I believe this would have started making the DCMS start having real issues, as they would slowly be whittled down as well as make the DC divert funds and resources to reinforce worlds that were considered behind the line enough to not do more then a limited amount of work on defenses. Then the question of how many would commit suicide from the loss.
It would be interesting to find out if this would put their military issues even further in the hole, as now materials would have to be sent to those new front line worlds to bolster their forces.
The CC would have been easier to take, but holding it in the face of the FWL might have negated some of this. Also. Would the FWL have declared war on the CC to try and take as much territory, or even attack the units invading the CC to try and destroy them before they could be turned on the FWL. It wouldn't be past Hanse to hit the CC, then hit the FWL afterwards.
Now having the FC on both sides of them may well have united them under the Marik banner. It could have also finally shattered their nation as well.
The question here would be who would think Marik was worse then the FC?
I think it was the correct choice to hit the DC, but there is a what if here. What would have happened if Hanse hit the CC when the DC got their toys from Comstar?
That might be a new thread....
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Karagin
02/14/20 09:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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Interesting points Ghostrider. If they did go after the Combine (as canon shows), then they would need to take Dieron and hold it, while linking up with attacks from the Lyran side. With ComStar playing all sides off, this would have stopped the Rasalhague Republic from being stillborn since it's not likely they would have been able to get their toys to them and broker a peace.
Your point about the FWL is a good one, they would most likely have invaded the CapCon to keep some form of buffer against The Sun's portion of the Fed-Com, and they would have possibly held off since they did have a longer border with the Fed-Com as well. The FWL is in an odd position; they can't fight the Fed-Com by themselves, so I think you are on to something that would grab what they could of the CapCon to stave off an invasion of their worlds. They might allow Laio forces to retreat into their space and absorb them into their own military.
Another factor at play is the Perphiery powers on the borders of the Suns' portion of the FC and the CapCon, I would think they would see this a chance to grab a couple of worlds and to also see what weaknesses they can exploit and what military forces they could obtain from the collapse of the CapCon.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/14/20 09:46 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
This thread is not asking for advertisement to an alt thread. It is asking about the canon story of if Hanse was correct hitting the DC, not the CC.
I did thank him for his offer of that thread. So let's move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/15/20 12:45 AM
1.158.235.15
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These were both discussed, in depth, within the Rat Revival Post - suggest re-reading to familiarize with all sides of the story.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/15/20 12:52 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
These were both discussed, in depth, within the Rat Revival Post - suggest re-reading to familiarize with all sides of the story.
Again that has nothing to do with this thread. If you want to take part, share your ideas for discussion. Tell us about another thread that is not what this one is about. No alternate universes, just ideas about why Hanse had a choice and why going after the CapCon might have been a better plan long term vs short term, that is what this about. I am not trying to revamp things or offer alternate versions of events. This more a looking at the options Hanse had and Monday Morning Quaterbacking them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/15/20 01:00 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
ghostrider wrote:
I think it was the correct choice to hit the DC, but there is a what if here. What would have happened if Hanse hit the CC when the DC got their toys from Comstar?
I doubt the Combine would have gotten the new mechs from ComStar if the Combine was not the target. I don't think we would have seen them help Laio out either. Marik would be the key factor of a CapCon front, they would be the ones who would be the counter balance.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 01:22 AM
66.74.60.165
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I want to say the books said they aimed at taking Deiron, and the LC portion was supposed to hold it while the FS portion hit elsewhere and linked up. The assassination of the LC high command doomed that.
And the issues of the FWL taking CC worlds or even having a full border of them was said to be part of why Hanse stopped the 4th war. I want to say this was in the NAIS 4th war books.
I would love to say I thought of this, but I can't.
I do agree with the logic there, though don't agree with some of the outcome.
But it is canon, so if I want to play in anything but home games, that is how it goes.
Now I do wonder if Comstar would still have given the DC the agreement for the mechs. It is possible Comstar knew of the invasion plans, or TPTB decided to make it coincidental that they were working on shoring up the DC's forces. It may have cost the DC far more then what it did, had they not been the target.
If Hanse hit the CC, then MIIO should have seen the 'new' mechs and known something was up. Which would have changed any future war, had the clans not shown up. Then again, taking out the CC might have actually had them come in sooner. The Outbound light may well have run into the invasion forced without getting to Huntress.
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Requiem
02/15/20 07:00 AM
1.158.235.15
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Note the following has been transcribed from Operation RAT REVIVAL – SOME of the highlights as it were ….
House Davion would not attack House Kurita in the war of 3039-40 rather the target would be House Liao, due to political / strategic issues …
• The no. of worlds to be captured Liao Vs. Kurita and the consideration that attacking Liao is a risk whereas Kurita is a gamble;
• Using the 20yr update book – the Capellan Confederation has only 26 regiments including 7 mercenary regiments; (NOT INCLUDING 4 MAC Regiments as I do not believe they should have survived the 4th SW)
• Most border worlds are protected by a single Battalion of ‘Mechs and Militia only;
• The main reasons however – if Hanse Davion is able to defeat another House – an act that no one else has ever achieved – it would go a long way to appointing him the new 1st Lord of a New Star League also it is simple Machiavellian theory – if you are on the way out – stab them in the back as quickly as possible. ;
• …. And keeping his wedding day promise to his wife – the Capellan Confederation;
• Attacking House Liao rather than Kurita the economic impact to both Davion and Steiner would be minimised / long term – the integration of the Capellan economy would be a boon to both the Steiner / Davion realms - the integration of its people and its economy into the new Federated Commonwealth.; (Plus their Jump-Ships)
Thus by 3050 the AFFC would have an additional 25 to 30 new RCTs and the addition of its former Jump-ships / Drop-ships to transport them to the Clan Front – making their “charge” through the inner sphere even more difficult.
The AFFC would gain access to Raven / Cataphract Mech
If the AFFC attacked the CC the DC would step in and take advantage of the weekend front, the Davion side would take a big hit. (however considering the AFFC has over 260 Regiments and the DC has only 99 – and all you need to assign to kill of the CC is about 40 this assertion, in my opinion, doesn’t hold water)
FWL, even being enemies with CC, would not sit idly by while their neighbor and smaller nation would be under attack. They would know they would be next. They would concentrate effort on the Lyran side and stall their effort in helping the newly formed alliance. (Again I do not believe this is accurate – The FWL would request a non aggression pact on this occasion – they would then immediately attack the CC to get their pound of flesh at the same time – ie. if they don’t have it yet they will get Betelgeuse (The majority of CC personal electronics etc.) as well as any other world they can get.
The idea they want to retain the CC as a border between them and The FWL has lost its validity – ¾ of their birder is already open the AFFC so why worry about the remaining ¼ - also this last ¼ is Andurien (and like Skye they keep on adjitate for freedom – with the AFFC on their border this should permanently shut them up and return them to the FWL, that is unless they want to become part of the F-C)
I would also like to say St Ives would join the fight in order to increase the size of their realm.
Plus on a side note I would like to see Kali and Sun Tzu rescued from Sian and taken to St Ives – plot development for the future.
New Post:-
Picture Hanse Davion in your mind – warlord - statesman – master tactician – then ask ‘how many periphery states (no matter how many military industries they have or how strong they are) are invaded and subdued would equal the same psychological shock and awe to the remaining Great Houses (and Comstar) as to the invasion and destruction of the CC (one of the five great houses)?’
Ans: not even all of them would equate to that of the destruction of the CC … the destruction of the CC is a pivotal moment in time …. One of those great moments in time when people ask each other, where were you when you heard of the Fall of the CC? … that which will send shockwaves throughout all the IS … hence his (Hanse's) glory will rise above all others … egotistical much … this is Hanse Davion … this is why the CC will fall! (it is not about strength or industries it is about being seen as the heir to the Lord of the Star League – and this can only happen when there is only one great house remaining! And with the fall of the CC in 3039/40 we are now down to 3!!!!!!!)
New Post:-
We all agree that the aim of all IS wars is to become the new First Lord of the Star League.
Therefore let us categorize the aims of a House Lord
1. Becoming Stronger – militarily and economically than all others;
2. Being recognized as the strongest;
3. Becoming the new First Lord;
With destroying one of the Great Houses (Liao) we can say that ‘yes’ this action does take the victor one step closer to becoming the new First Lord – thus achieving No. 1 and No. 2.
However, would driving the DC to their knees make them the new First Lord? As this is the only step above that of being recognized as the strongest – ans: no it would not, the border would shift however the war would continue at a later date ….
So the point of driving them to their knees was what … they are still fighting, still defying FC’s right to be the new First Lord?
Can it be said the gains of attacking the DC will be greater that the gains of destroying the CC?
Liao – this DOES give you glory, it DOES give you a greater economy, it DOES give you a larger army, It DOES give you more worlds than that if you attacked the DC (Plus more military industries inc. Cataphract and Raven), it DOES give you a larger Navy (Jump-ships) (therefore a greater flexibility when attacking the DC in the future), It DOES put you one step closer to becoming the new FIRST LORD.
Can you say at the end of 3039 if you attack the DC you wold end up with more than what is discussed when attacking Liao and the CC? ans:– the border would shift however the DC would continue to fight? Will it give you more industries a larger economy more jump-ships etc
The only rational argument that could be given at this stage is either the destruction of the CC or the destruction of the DC?
Can it be said the 3039 war would destroy the DC in the place of the CC? How could it?
Can it be argued that the war of 3039 would destroy the DC? Ans:- no
Can it be argued the war of 3039 would destroy the CC? Ans:- yes
Can you then utilize the former CC assets to overwhelm the military of the DC in the future? Ans:- yes
This is why the CC must fall 1st
New Post:-
So what are their important worlds / industries are within Dieron
Dieron Area:-
Dieron – a capitol world only;
Altair – Mining – Iron Ore and Titanium and medicines; Riever class aerospace fighter
Al Na’ir – space mining of rare minerals – Small Battlemech facility – (so small it is not even mentioned In the House Kurita book #1620) – Yori Mech Works – Hatamoto-Series & Atlas Mechs (plus other components for the Catapult) plus vehicles Pegasus, Saladin, Scimitar, Maxim, Hover APC; (though other books say the Hatamoto is produced on Errai)
Ashio – has the biggest Volcano in the Inner Sphere;
Algedi – Nil. Of importance;
Kessel – heavily industrialized;
Vega – manufacturing myomer cable bundles and Pyramids;
Quentin – Nt. This world exchanged hands from FC to DC during the 3039 war so this world does not play a part in the decision to invade or not; (though it does have JagerMech, Marauder, Victor and Atlas production plants)
Benjamin Thrust:-
Huan – Sparkling Spirits Incorporated;
Sadalbari – food export;
Fellanin II – minerals and petrochemicals;
Marduk – Victory Mech Works – Griffin and Wolverine
Galedon Thrust:- Nil. of any real importance
Thestria – precious metals;
No of Worlds captured: approx. 40 worlds
Attacking FC Forces: approx. 75 Regiments
Defending DC Forces: approx. 60 Regiments
Economy – non quantifiable amount;
Jump-ships / Dropships – the DC would endeavour to hold onto as many of these as possible – in the event of possible capture retreat back into DC held space;
Battlemech units captured / destroyed – non quantifiable amount as Kurita could easily retreat as many of these out of the combat region, thus preserving his military for any future campaign or stay and fight;
Duration of war / Exit Strategy from war – Unknown and if pushed back to the FC’s original border.
Prestige gained – the capture of Part a small part of Dieron and a change in border worlds between the FC and the DC only. Therefore very little prestige at all – similar situation to mostly all the wars in the past.
So the FC were looking for a gain of approx. 40 worlds two Battlemech factories / 5 various vehicle manufactories / one aerospace factory / food / precious metals – unknown amount of jump-ships – unknown amount of captured ‘Mechs etc. during the war. – so overall this war is just a change in the border only.
(so what was the outcome – little to both sides – a change in border only – then peace – However 75 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged requiring repair)
Now let us compare all of this to conquering the remaining half of the CC
Their remaining worlds are adjacent the periphery and the FWL (the Duchy of Andurien)
So what are their important worlds / industries are within the remaining CC?
(Note I am excluding Ares, Necromo and Betelgeuse)
Bithinia – steel mills; weapons AC5 / AC20;
Capella – Vindicator ‘Mech / Transit Aerospace Fighter / Jupships –Merchant, Invader, Monolith, Drop-ship - Triumph, Excalibur, Avenger
Grand Base – Stinger and Cataphract Mechs
Menke – Armor and Armament
Sian – Vehicles Vedette, Scorpion, Hover APC, Pegasus, Maxim – Mechs Wasp and Raven – Aerospace – Transgressor
Victoria – Electronics
No.of worlds captured: approx. 100 worlds
Attacking FC Forces: approx. 40-50 regiments
Defending CC Forces: 26 regiments (7 mercenary)
Economy – A quantum leap above that of those suggested within the DC.
Jumpships / Dropships – most of their remaining fleet (so a high number)
Battlememech units captured / destroyed - up to 19 Regiments worth of captured ‘Mechs (in various states of repair – even if you could salvage 25% this would still give you 4-5 new Regiments worth of 'Mechs strait off the bat).
Duration of war / Exit Strategy from war – Unknown and unless serious casualties are incurred during the duration of the war
Prestige gained – for the first time ever a Great House has fallen to that of another – Prestige would be very high – for the first time since the fall of the star league there now appears a front runner to the title Lord of the Star League …
So the FC were looking for a gain of approx. 100 worlds three battlemech factories / 4 various vehicle manufactories / two aerospace factories / three jumpship / three drop-ship / food / precious metals etc - the entire remaining CC economy – near to all of the former CC navy – a large number of captured ‘Mechs– So, the entire CC is gone – therefore a massive change in the border
(so what would be the outcome – a massive change in the border with the removal of the CC from the border – then peace – However only 40-50 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged requiring a reduced amount of repair whereas the above is at 75 or thereabouts requiring repair)
So – the FC achieved much more including jump-ships / dropships, ‘Mechs, fighters (as per the Objective raids book) – more worlds captured – the prestige gained by destroying a rival house and this is all completed with fewer FC regiments – thus you have more on the border to protect your other border worlds
So how can anyone still say that the CC is still not the primary target of the 3039 war?
This also now gives the FC a good chance within the next 15-20 years to expand their army to such an extent so that neither the FWL or the DC could survive the next war.
With the additional transport / ‘Mech units available to Hanse Davion …. It puts him closer to the IS throne than anyone has been before him … and still No? why? (remember we are talking about a decision prior to the war not what may or may not happens within the war)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/15/20 08:47 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
ghostrider wrote: I want to say the books said they aimed at taking Deiron, and the LC portion was supposed to hold it while the FS portion hit elsewhere and linked up. The assassination of the LC high command doomed that.
And the issues of the FWL taking CC worlds or even having a full border of them was said to be part of why Hanse stopped the 4th war. I want to say this was in the NAIS 4th war books.
I would love to say I thought of this, but I can't.
I do agree with the logic there, though don't agree with some of the outcome.
But it is canon, so if I want to play in anything but home games, that is how it goes.
Yes, they didn't get off to a good start overall with things in the Combine. I think Hanse was not listening to his intell officers and he was convinced that the feuding between Theodore and his father was hurting the Combine to the point that one hard push and the whole thing falls apart. Which wasn't the case when push came to shove. At this point IF he focused on finishing the CapCon off, and even if he was planning on putting Candance one the throne, the FWL would still need to react, they would not want a new ally of the FedCom on their border which would be just as bad as the Fed-Com on both sides and given the fractious nature of the League itself I think we would see them attacking the Caplleans to offset anything else that happens. Also, the Periphery powers would be lurking like vultures ready to feed on the CapCon and the League if things went south. So Marik would see the writing on the wall and join in on the bloodletting in the CapCon.
Quote:
ghostrider wrote:
Now I do wonder if Comstar would still have given the DC the agreement for the mechs. It is possible Comstar knew of the invasion plans, or TPTB decided to make it coincidental that they were working on shoring up the DC's forces. It may have cost the DC far more then what it did, had they not been the target.
If Kurtia wasn't the target of the 3039 conflicts I doubt we would have seen ComStar helping the Combine, there was no need.
Quote:
ghostrider wrote:
If Hanse hit the CC, then MIIO should have seen the 'new' mechs and known something was up. Which would have changed any future war, had the clans not shown up. Then again, taking out the CC might have actually had them come in sooner. The Outbound light may well have run into the invasion forced without getting to Huntress.
Again, I doubt the Combine would have gotten the help from ComStar. So there would be no new mechs, ComStar would not be doling out advanced equipment to anyone. The Clans are still 20 or so years distant and a change in who Hanse attacks in 3039 I doubt would speed up their arrival. Either way they would still be working with outdated information and still have the same issues to face.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Anduriens little nation may well get that independence, if only for a short while. Recognizing it causes turmoil in the FWL without having to fire a shot.
As stated in another thread, the CC's economy isn't great to begin with, and with a war taking the last of it, it would require a lot of time and resources to get it going again. On top of that, the rebellious population would require far more occupation troops for a long while.
Also, I believe the CC would start using nukes and other devices to try and stop the invasion.
If the factories aren't destroy by fighting or scorched earth tactics, then they would be nice. There is a good chance those units that run would head into the periphery and join up there, or start a new community. Also, as said, the FWL and DC would have no choice but to launch a full out war, probably one that would be very destructive to border worlds and any industries there, because it is only a matter of time before they get hit.
Hitting the DC would gain them more in the way of removing DC troops as well as sending a message to the rest of the DC. They are not going to stop the FC. As shown in all scenarios, the DC is the greatest threat to the FC.
Taking out a chunk of their forces as well as lands, means they are that much weaker. With enough damage, the FRR might well sign a pact with the FC, and start hitting the DC. Granted the DC may resort to WMD once they realize, they are going to lose.
With the CC, heavy raids with a few real invasions would be enough to start their downfall. The FWL is the one thing that would cause issues. That is IF they get involved. They might even fall as you are hitting the DC hard. The CC would have to reinforce Capella, or risk losing their only jumpship production. That alone would give the FC forces a huge advantage. That means other worlds have less defenders on it, making the invasions less likely to be hurt, or hurt badly.
Not saying it would be an easy choice to hit the DC, but in the end, Hanse and the FC could become the rulers without having to destroy the other realms. Removing Ramana, Kali and Sun Tzu and putting Candice to run the CC could be done without a full scale war. And with that, make the transition that much easier, as it is a Liao person in charge, not the FC.
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Requiem
02/15/20 05:05 PM
1.158.235.15
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Anduriens –
Problem like Skye but with the F-C on their border will they still be a problem or will they shut up and look for more FWL forces to defend them for the onslaught to come?
CC economy –
Yes in 3039 / 3040 it’s economy is a basket case. However wasn’t Germany, Japan and China in the same boat at the end of WW2 – however when you look at them now, powerhouses is an understatement!
By 3050 -3060 -3070 – how big could the new F-C CC economy be then?
Yes they may require more garrison troops to start off with – however they will be shifting from a Totalitarian Government to an open liberal Government - how may will appreciate the new system over the old? – East Germany?
Nukes – as stated in the Operation Rat Revival Post – How can Sun Tzu legitimize his run to restore the CC in the future if his mother is known for using nukes like candy – no one would trust him as he would be painted with the same brush as his mother (destabilized / cannot be trusted etc.)
Quote:
There is a good chance those units that run would head into the periphery and join up there, or start a new community.
Highly doubtful – a more believable action would be they turn to the only Liao remaining – they would go to St Ives – and in the fullness of time look to Sun Tzu to restore the CC.
Quote:
the FWL and DC would have no choice but to launch a full out war
No they do not!
What will it serve to defend the CC when it is obvious that once the AFFC attack the CC it is just a matter of time before it falls over – this is simple Machiavellian Theory – if someone is on the way out, do not attempt to prop them up, stab them in the back as quickly as you can!
DC – they can watch and preserve what they have – then begin increasing production for the next war to come.
FWL – they would join in on the feast and take as may CC border worlds as they can to increase their own power.
Quote:
Hitting the DC would gain them more in the way of removing DC troops as well as sending a message to the rest of the DC. They are not going to stop the FC. As shown in all scenarios, the DC is the greatest threat to the FC.
Refer above as well as Rat Revival Post – in it attacking the DC proves nothing other than another shift in the overall border.
However killing of the CC, an entire rival hose – an achievement no single house has ever achieved since the fall of Amaris and the TH – This is sending a message not only to the DC but to the entire IS and periphery realms.
Quote:
Not saying it would be an easy choice to hit the DC, but in the end, Hanse and the FC could become the rulers without having to destroy the other realms.
The only way to becoming Fist Lord is through conquest – in the bedroom or on the battlefield.
Quote:
Removing Ramana, Kali and Sun Tzu and putting Candice to run the CC could be done without a full scale war.
As stated in Operation Rat Revival – do this and you will always have the risk they will declare independence from the F-C – thus you are back to square one. The F-C will have to squash them again!
The only way to ensure long term compliance is with a new regional lord with the name as either Steiner or Davion.
Though a compromise may be considered with the name Steiner-Davion-Liao, a marriage of convenience. Kai and Yvonne (Katherine would balk at the idea) – or how about Arthur or Peter and Kali Liao (that marriage would go down like a lead balloon).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 08:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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Or does Andurien petition to join the FC or open a bid to become independent? It isn't just defend or shut up. They may well be the ones to start a war with the FC, so they can gain the worlds they want. Not smart, but then they attacked the CC during the 4th war.
The main issue with the CC economy being rebuilt is who will risk funding it? And with that, who will the government allow to even try? Large companies going in and making their own little kingdoms is very possible at that point.
And the economy would take more then the FS after the 4th war. The CC wasn't well known for everyone having any sort of funds.
The fall of the CC means the FC has 2 foes to attack, not three. And even before they could move, the DC/FWL would have to strike hard, in the hopes of setting back the FC enough so they remain on the defensive. Otherwise, you might was well just sign over control to the FC. They will eventually come for you, and with such numbers, even the stupidest social generals will succeed in battles.
Did I miss something or isn't becoming the rulers without destroying the other realms mean the end of the wars? And isn't that conquest as well? I don't understand how it was missed that without destroying the other realms means not conquering them.
Sorry but having a last name of Davion or Steiner would not be sure of loyalty. Michael Hasek-Davion and then Katherine are two good examples of those that would destroy the alliance if they weren't in charge. As been stated elsewhere, agreements put in place would help to make sure that didn't happen. It could well be that they would not gain the whole CC, but only parts of it, so as to keep the people content without giving them the base they need to successfully revolt.
And Justin Allard would have pull to help avoid it. Now Kai and the rest of the family would probably not revolt, so one generation would be some what calm. After that, it is anyones guess like the rest of the universe.
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Karagin
02/15/20 09:12 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
– as stated in the Operation Rat Revival Post – How can Sun Tzu legitimi
Okay, this IS NOT the thread you keep referring back to. Second off, this is not about your thread at all. It is about looking at the point where did Hanse decide the Combine was to be the target. That's it. It is not a what-if or should have been topic. It is a look at things from the point of view of which was the better target for the showing of the military prowess of the Fed-Com.
If you want to take about what if's then do so in the topic you keep alluding to. Thank you.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/15/20 09:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
The Anduriens little nation may well get that independence, if only for a short while. Recognizing it causes turmoil in the FWL without having to fire a shot.
They might but again Marik is in the weigh the odds factor, do they want to jump in if the Fed-Com goes against the CapCon or sit it out? They didn't jump in to save Kurtia in the canon so their factors are going to be pulling and pushing them to no end, and that could cause them to have more rebellions and revolts.
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As stated in another thread, the CC's economy isn't great to begin with, and with a war taking the last of it, it would require a lot of time and resources to get it going again. On top of that, the rebellious population would require far more occupation troops for a long while.
Also, I believe the CC would start using nukes and other devices to try and stop the invasion.
If the factories aren't destroy by fighting or scorched earth tactics, then they would be nice. There is a good chance those units that run would head into the periphery and join up there, or start a new community. Also, as said, the FWL and DC would have no choice but to launch a full out war, probably one that would be very destructive to border worlds and any industries there, because it is only a matter of time before they get hit
Odd we have not brought up the CapCon encomoy and seeing how this thread is not about that but about Hanes's opitions, let's just stick to the topic okay?
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Hitting the DC would gain them more in the way of removing DC troops as well as sending a message to the rest of the DC. They are not going to stop the FC. As shown in all scenarios, the DC is the greatest threat to the FC.
Taking out a chunk of their forces as well as lands, means they are that much weaker. With enough damage, the FRR might well sign a pact with the FC, and start hitting the DC. Granted the DC may resort to WMD once they realize, they are going to lose.
True, they would be mixing it up more with a force that has well trained and battle hardened troops. As for their resorting to nukes etc...it's not something was normally used during this time frame so I doubt they would do that, let's leave that kind of what-if stuff on the outside.
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With the CC, heavy raids with a few real invasions would be enough to start their downfall. The FWL is the one thing that would cause issues. That is IF they get involved. They might even fall as you are hitting the DC hard. The CC would have to reinforce Capella, or risk losing their only jumpship production. That alone would give the FC forces a huge advantage. That means other worlds have less defenders on it, making the invasions less likely to be hurt, or hurt badly.
Not saying it would be an easy choice to hit the DC, but in the end, Hanse and the FC could become the rulers without having to destroy the other realms. Removing Ramana, Kali and Sun Tzu and putting Candice to run the CC could be done without a full scale war. And with that, make the transition that much easier, as it is a Liao person in charge, not the FC.
This is a valid point, a big push into the CapCon would more than likely cause it to start to fall apart. Your point about Candice being the one to take the throne and pull it back together hold water since it is mentioned in one of the novels, I believe by Candice or Justin that they did have plans for that at one point or another. And given that she knew ways into the Laio palace...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/16/20 12:35 AM
1.158.235.15
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Question: with the F-C now on their border why would Andurien switch sides or declare independence or attack the F-C on their own?
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The main issue with the CC economy being rebuilt is who will risk funding it?
Question why did the US rebuild Germany’s and Japan’s economy at the end of WW2?
If you conquered the territory you have the responsibility to fix it.
Assign a new Duke and they will govern the new realm.
Yes it will take time to rebuild but within 10 -20 -30- 50 – 100 years what will be the economic and military advantages to the F-C by having this new March? If it goes anything like Germany / Japan the benefits would be vast.
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The fall of the CC means the FC has 2 foes to attack, not three. And even before they could move, the DC/FWL would have to strike hard,
Would they?
Considering Thomas is in charge of the FWL – if you offered him a marriage Victor and Isis for a military alliance against the DC what would he say?
Especially considering that post 3039 War with the CC just on salvage alone they should get 3-6 new ‘Mech Regiments – so they (the F-C) would be over 270 Regiments! And how long will it take for the F-C to get the former CC Mech factories on line and producing again?
In this case if you were offered a chance to be on the winning side wouldn’t the FWL take it? Especially since Thomas’ grand-child will one day be the First Lord?
And then it it just a question of time as to how long the DC will remain …
So, wouldn’t Hanse have asked his psy-ops teams to look into Thomas’ psychological profile as a long term what if?
ie.given his psychological profile wouldn’t he ask them to consider a number of questions and ask them their best guess as to how Thomas would react? ie. If the F-C takes the CC ….
– how would the FWL respond?
– would they join in destroying the CC or sit back and watch?
- how would they respond to the idea of alliance at that stage against the DC?
As well as many more questions – Hanse would then read the answers and he would make his own decision based on what he knows about the man?
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Did I miss something or isn't becoming the rulers without destroying the other realms mean the end of the wars?
Has it ever stopped humanity in the past? – so no it will not be the end.
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I don't understand how it was missed that without destroying the other realms means not conquering them.
Then what is the Federated Commonwealth?
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Sorry but having a last name of Davion or Steiner would not be sure of loyalty.
This is correct … but the reverse is also true having the Steiner – Davion name can also be a sign of loyalty.
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St. Ives
Politically, militarily and economically St Ives would join in on the destruction of the CC – hopefully to gain more worlds.
Also having a Liao with the invading forces would be seen as a legalization of the attacking force / destruction of the CC.
Something Hanse would be more than willing to publicize …. during the invasion.
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this IS NOT the thread you keep referring back to. Second off, this is not about your thread at all. It is about looking at the point where did Hanse decide the Combine was to be the target.
Then be specific about you question – if you leave it open ended then you will get an open ended repose ….
If you want an extremely closed answer like this the read the opening paragraphs of the adventure pack.
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They might but again Marik is in the weigh the odds factor, do they want to jump in if the Fed-Com goes against the CapCon or sit it out? They didn't jump in to save Kurtia in the canon so their factors are going to be pulling and pushing them to no end, and that could cause them to have more rebellions and revolts.
Question: isn’t this a “what if” that you say I am alluding to?
Question: Since when doesn’t the change in economy (due to the war itself as well as the after affects) affect a House Lords decision to attack or not and which target to attack or not?
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This is a valid point, a big push into the CapCon would more than likely cause it to start to fall apart. Your point about Candice being the one to take the throne and pull it back together hold water since it is mentioned in one of the novels, I believe by Candice or Justin that they did have plans for that at one point or another. And given that she knew ways into the Laio palace...
Hanse is a warlord – get in his way and he will remove you from the board – the CC is his, Candice and Justin will just have to accept the fact that if attacked by F-C forces in 3039 the majority of it will belong to the F-C.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/16/20 12:46 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
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this IS NOT the thread you keep referring back to. Second off, this is not about your thread at all. It is about looking at the point where did Hanse decide the Combine was to be the target.
Then be specific about you question – if you leave it open ended then you will get an open ended repose ….
No, maybe you need to stop trying to shoehorn in YOUR version of what YOU think things should be. You want to offer things relative to the topic, then do so, copypaste things from your alternate take things is NOT what was asked for. It was not open-ended, it was a question that had it's meaning explained, you chose to jump with your well if you look here at my topic you will get the answers, when that was never the question, nowhere did I ask you for solely for your opinion on the matter.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/16/20 12:53 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Quote:
They might but again Marik is in the weigh the odds factor, do they want to jump in if the Fed-Com goes against the CapCon or sit it out? They didn't jump in to save Kurtia in the canon so their factors are going to be pulling and pushing them to no end, and that could cause them to have more rebellions and revolts.
Question: isn’t this a “what if” that you say I am alluding to?
Question: Since when doesn’t the change in economy (due to the war itself as well as the after affects) affect a House Lords decision to attack or not and which target to attack or not?
No, it's not a what it, it's looking at the facts as given in the canon setting and trying to get into the thinking of the mind and thought pattern of Marik and Hanse. The What If is in their minds, if I do things what could happen, this not a single thought to the point of departure, it's how did we get to Hanse deciding the Combine was the target over a sure win in the CapCon. That is where things differ from your endless revamps. I am not looking for what-ifs as the finial outcome I am looking the analytical end result being what factors did he exhaust to reach the conculsion that taking on the Combine was the better long term end for the Fed-Com vs as I said the sure thing win against the CapCon.
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This is a valid point, a big push into the CapCon would more than likely cause it to start to fall apart. Your point about Candice being the one to take the throne and pull it back together hold water since it is mentioned in one of the novels, I believe by Candice or Justin that they did have plans for that at one point or another. And given that she knew ways into the Laio palace...
Hanse is a warlord – get in his way and he will remove you from the board – the CC is his, Candice and Justin will just have to accept the fact that if attacked by F-C forces in 3039 the majority of it will belong to the F-C.
He is, but he's not the rape and pillage and rape again kind of warlord, he comes across as the true believer in the cause of his version of Humanity is the right one, join or die kind thing. But he's also not one to ground things to dust just to win. And if he wins by having Candice on the Laio throne in the end, then he wins, which is what is important to him.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/16/20 02:03 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
How did we get to Hanse deciding the Combine was the target over a sure win in the CapCon.
In writing up both plans to invade the CC or the DC wouldn’t Hanse consider …
- The psychological response of both DC and CC leaders and their military;
- The capabilities of your military over their military;
- What you will possibly win / loose;
- What economic affects will occur to your realm if you win / loose (short and long term);
- How your actions will be viewed by the other houses not involved;
- The affects of your actions upon your own citizens – economically, socially their morale;
At the bare minimum these are the factors that Hanse will need to consider.
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And if he wins by having Candice on the Laio throne in the end, then he wins, which is what is important to him.
And he is also intelligent … does he want another Liao on the Throne … does he want a puppet or how about owning the realm – so that there is no CC there is only the Free Worlds March with a new F-C Duke.
Plus the issue of the ego trip – he is the first Lord to kill off another House a feat NO ONE has ever done before, can you really say he would give that up for anything?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/16/20 02:03 AM)
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Karagin
02/16/20 10:12 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
In writing up both plans to invade the CC or the DC wouldn’t Hanse consider …
- The psychological response of both DC and CC leaders and their military;
- The capabilities of your military over their military;
- What you will possibly win / loose;
- What economic affects will occur to your realm if you win / loose (short and long term);
- How your actions will be viewed by the other houses not involved;
- The affects of your actions upon your own citizens – economically, socially their morale;
At the bare minimum these are the factors that Hanse will need to consider.
Now you figured out where this is going, those things would be the issues and the information would be given to him from his military and other advisors. He would then do all the what-ifs himself. The idea here is to figure out which one tipped things for him to go after the Combine. And I know which one it is already, but was it the logical reason or not, that becomes the question.
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And if he wins by having Candice on the Laio throne in the end, then he wins, which is what is important to him.
And he is also intelligent … does he want another Liao on the Throne … does he want a puppet or how about owning the realm – so that there is no CC there is only the Free Worlds March with a new F-C Duke.
Plus the issue of the ego trip – he is the first Lord to kill off another House a feat NO ONE has ever done before, can you really say he would give that up for anything?
Have a puppet on the CapCon throne would still be him in charge and his ego would still be intact. The CapCon under Candice would not be the same size or have the same ability to wage a war that the one prior to that had, because Hanse would not allow them to become a threat later on and he would have safeguards in place.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/16/20 06:24 PM
1.158.235.15
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3039 - The Ronin War occurred in 34 – so really this should not have been a factor in Hanse’s consideration.
But it was, Hanse wanted to demonstrate the power of the new AFFC he wanted to flex his new muscles and demonstrate his new prowess in battle – so he did what anyone would do, he picked a fight with the biggest meanest bully on the block, just so he could prove his AFFC are superior to any other Houses forces.
With that in mind he wanted to take Dieron away from the DC to prove his combat prowess.
To put everyone in their Place as it were.
So that like many wars before they could end it all by Christmas – with a DC defeat he could then declare himself First Lord and no one could stop him.
Though no one would give in – he would still need to defeat all the remaining houses.
Ego and vanity as well as delusions of grandeur? – not something I would usually ascribe to Hanse.
This is were everything comes off the rails if you want to say Hanse did something for ego and vanity it would be the CC – not to demonstrate his martial proves but to say he killed of an entire house – he has done that which no one can claim – he has the strength of will and power to do what no one has ever done before! This action is what would even give the DC pause for though and not that of taking Dieron away.
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Have a puppet on the CapCon throne would still be him in charge and his ego would still be intact …. Hanse would not allow them to become a threat later on and he would have safeguards in place.
Puppet states have a nasty way of rebelling in the future no matter how many safeguards you put in place.
Safer and better for the F-C as a whole to just absorb them into the F-C – it may take many generations but over time the people of the former CC will come to see themselves as part of the F-C as long as you treat them with dignity and respect and you allow them to retain their cultural heritage. That is you make their identity a part of the F-C identity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 09:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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Tikonov would be a good example of how the FS would absorb with the rest of the CC. Having Candace and Kai settle things down for a pair of generations. With Kai, he may well have helped transfer power.
Figuring the DC, may well have been the ego talking, with the main thing that disrupted the plan was the Comstar mechs. Had MIIO found anything like that, I think he would have used more units in the assault. Then again, the target might have shifted to the CC.
Yes. The CC would have given him the possibility of more industries to work with, which could have been used for future issues, but it was not going to stop possible future raids from the DC. I think hitting the DC would partially have been done, to throw off the others guesses about where he would go. The CC was a very obvious of a target.
The strike on the DC would have been better done when it was originally planned, but as we know, the Skye Rebellion stopped it.
But this also gave him some excuse to have more units where they would normally be a concern. So using them to strike at the DC with his plans could have cemented the strike on the DC.
Hanse did know how to beat Takashi, but could not marshal the resources to do so. Which, as suggested above by someone, may be why he went after the DC. Take it down, or at least hurt it badly before Theodore could throw in complications to future wars.
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Karagin
02/17/20 12:00 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Ego and vanity as well as delusions of grandeur? – not something I would usually ascribe to Hanse. This is were everything comes off the rails if you want to say Hanse did something for ego and vanity it would be the CC – not to demonstrate his martial proves but to say he killed of an entire house – he has done that which no one can claim – he has the strength of will and power to do what no one has ever done before! This action is what would even give the DC pause for though and not that of taking Dieron away.
One thing weighs FAR more than all of that for Hanse, even a bit more than Max's little doppelganger game. One thing he harbors ill will over.
Quote:
Puppet states have a nasty way of rebelling in the future no matter how many safeguards you put in place.
Safer and better for the F-C as a whole to just absorb them into the F-C – it may take many generations but over time the people of the former CC will come to see themselves as part of the F-C as long as you treat them with dignity and respect and you allow them to retain their cultural heritage. That is you make their identity a part of the F-C identity.
Really? With Sunny out of the way by being DEAD, do recall Candice did tell him that she would kill him since his mom would more than likely be dead and thus the state would not be rebelling anytime soon given that they would be gaining more for an alliance with the FedCom then they would against it IF they were indeed conquered by the FedCom.
Hanse would know that after all he was a student of history and was well aware of his vassals and their manipulations and backroom schemings and double-dealings. So another player in the mix would not be something he couldn't handle. Plus the puppet would need to Hanse and his military to keep the predications of the FWL at bay.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (02/17/20 12:03 AM)
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Requiem
02/17/20 12:45 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
One thing weighs FAR more than all of that for Hanse, even a bit more than Max's little doppelganger game. One thing he harbors ill will over.
Are you suggesting the death of his brother?
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rebelling anytime soon
With a puppet Liao government, can you say they will still be a puppet in two generations or how about five?
In contrast with a member of the family controlling a new March that over time you have been slowly changing their society from CC to a more pro F-C society ….
If it was me I would feel better with a member of the family …
As if I was FWL I would attempt to stir the feelings of the old CC antagonism towards the F-C, what would happen if the puppet Liao leader believed this and was backed by the FWL … this would cause a major problem.
No it would be better to nip it in the bud now and have your family in charge than allow the possibility of another war in the future to capture territory you have already won.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/17/20 12:57 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Quote:
One thing weighs FAR more than all of that for Hanse, even a bit more than Max's little doppelganger game. One thing he harbors ill will over.
Are you suggesting the death of his brother?
That along with the attack on his wife when she was on her trip to see him. Those are personal issues and revenge is a powerful motivator. And I do believe after all the facts and figures were weighed and discussed all the what-if games were wargamed and sand tables ran. It came down to the Combine as the target because of their transgressions against him and his own thus it personal. It wouldn't be the first time a leader sent their military into a war over personal insults etc...
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rebelling anytime soon
With a puppet Liao government, can you say they will still be a puppet in two generations or how about five?
In contrast with a member of the family controlling a new March that over time you have been slowly changing their society from CC to a more pro F-C society ….
If it was me I would feel better with a member of the family …
As if I was FWL I would attempt to stir the feelings of the old CC antagonism towards the F-C, what would happen if the puppet Liao leader believed this and was backed by the FWL … this would cause a major problem.
No it would be better to nip it in the bud now and have your family in charge than allow the possibility of another war in the future to capture territory you have already won.
Here you are thinking that the Capellans will revolt to go back to what? The crazy nuts who got them into war after a pointless war? Candice has peace, they have a secure border and the Suns aren't attacking them every year or three. Plus their lives improve with better technology and access to better things. Not seeing the downside to their being a puppet of the FedCom, plus it frees up a lot of military forces for Hanse to use against the FWL or the DC at a later point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/17/20 04:28 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
It came down to the Combine as the target because of their transgressions against him and his own thus it personal. It wouldn't be the first time a leader sent their military into a war over personal insults etc...
The death of his brother, the attack on his wife, Versus. an ego trip to demonstrate his new muscles, Versus, treating a person as an object, eliminating their personal identity, converting them into another person so that they can take over another realm …..
Sorry to say but these are not the reasons Hanse Davion would go to War.
If you were going to describe him what would you say … Highly complex and yet some of the traits I would assign him would be …
Highly Intelligent and innovative;
A man who appreciates a good education;
A man who is able to accumulate the best of people around him then ask for their assistance, a man who listens to others;
And those that do form part of his inner circle love him and would die for him;
Consummate Statesman, diplomat and politician;
Layer of traps within traps – a man who understands the political arena and the hearts and motives of people;
A man who can identify the worth of another man and put them just where they are needed most;
A man who is not above using his people for his own ends – even his political enemies who have plotted against him and repent are not above the uses, for a couple of minor conditions;
War-master and master tactician;
Cunning and ruthless;
A man who knows when and where to go straight for the jugular – or to destroy a person psychologically, slowly and irrevocably – and in the end deliver the Coup-de-grace;
Loyal and trustworthy friend;
And not above gloating when necessary;
Bitter and hated enemy – and yet his enemy must respect him as he respects them in turn, for they know how devious on the battlefield, the political arena he can truly be;
In private loving, kind and even has a good sense of humor;
A man who enjoys playing with the boys when he can to foster relationships of trust;
These are but a few of the litany of descriptions I would apply to him ….
I would not however describe him as petty – in taking the death of his brother personally – his brother knew the risks – he would morn and grieve, but he would not seek vengeance.
I would not describe him vengeful or wrathful for the trap laid for his wife – relieved that she is safe yes, but not vengeful – in time he will come to learn their identity and in time he will set a trap for them and them alone.
As for an ego trip to flex his muscles – no, this is too simple a reason for Hanse Davion – there must be more in than just to demonstrate his new martial prowess – all the IS knows how dangerous he is, he does not need to demonstrate his strength like some child in the playground.
As for the reason he destroyed the CC, it was not, treating a person as an object, eliminating their personal identity, converting them into another person so that they can take over another realm ….. this was just Hanse sticking the knife in and giving it a good twist, in order to say I got you good!
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H ere you are thinking that the Capellans will revolt to go back to what?
Here, they are NOT going back to the CC – No, they are going forward to something else … something still under the rule of a Liao.
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Not seeing the downside to their being a puppet of the FedCom, plus it frees up a lot of military forces for Hanse to use against the FWL or the DC at a later point.
Are you going to allow them their own forces …. Are you going to stop the FWL creating forces in exile who at the correct time will jump the boarder to regain their lost realm?
Hanse would be a madman to remove the bulk of the military from a puppet state – you are just making it easier for them to revolt to form a new state, that you will just have to conquer again.
What about access to all the Factories – BattleMechs, Fighters, DropHips, JumpShips – in the future the CC are even making Warships – what about the CC economy – taxation revenue – access to resources?
But most of all access to new staging grounds from which you can invade the FWL – for the first time you can attack by striking them in the rear – take Andurien First … would the FWL even see it coming?
I stand by my assertion in answering the title of this post:- “Kurita or Liao War of 3039?” – the answer (in my opinion) must be Laio
More Worlds for less damage to the AFFC;
More armaments factories – including the Raven and Cataphract that can be used to increase the size of the AFFC quicker;
Greater long term economic benefits to the F-C – not only money but resources and people - what about the majority of the CC Mechant Navy (Jump-Ships and Drop-Ships); and
But most of all The accolade that comes with being the First to Destroy a Rival House.
To name but a few ….
The idea of having a puppet state is a political, military and economic impossibility … the inclusion of the former CC can only be considered a long term benefit to the F-C.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/17/20 05:43 PM
1.158.235.15
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In the 4th SW they used the majority of their jump-ships to fight the CC, FWL and DC.
How many more former CC Jump-ships could they add to the F-C to fight the remaining realms FRR / FWL / DC?
How many more units could they use as a first strike to overwhelm and destroy their enemy.
How many units that were used against the former CC can now be assigned to the FRR, FWL or DC?
Is this not a good reason, on its own, to absorb the former CC into the F-C?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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