ghostrider
03/14/20 04:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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Again, the only two scenarios is only for the alt. There are other ways to deal with the warships. In canon, the nukes are just plain dirty junk. Other capital missiles are better in damage, and don't cause glowing things around it.
The developers seem to have selective amnesia when it comes to the own, or maybe the novel writers, ideas. More then a few should have been done/used, and were left out or retconned back in, once they realized they missed it.
Now with the alt, changing ANYTHING before the invasion means an entirely different outcome. Taking the CC in the 4th war/3039 war changes the whole situation of the IS. Not just the extra units, but the fact that the FWL may well have been a little more active in the defense of the IS before the Dragoon meeting. I think the special mechs made in the CC would not have been done, nor would their warship designs come out.
With the Achilles dropship manufacturing, you could well use your pocket warships with them. They are fast enough to get within range to fire off their weapons. The additional regiments of fighters also would change the outcome of most, if not all the battles for the IS.
Not only removing the warship threat, but taking out dropships is another big step. No forces on the ground if they can't reach at least orbit.
Then actually having the vehicles fighting along side the IS mechs would change a lot too.
Then comes the added advantage of not having so many units destroyed with the DC in the 3039 war. There is a good chance the clans would have gotten maybe 3 jumps in, then got stopped cold by the houses, not comstar, and then pushed back out.
And again. Rewriting the game without fixing the rules and things before 3025 that needs to be done, will only cause further issues with a new story, or even fixing the numbers and such from the current one.
The entire issue of no advanced tech making it to the 3025 era, including designs and such is a bit much.
Then again, what were the mechs in the league like that the 3025 mechs were downgraded copies of?
As the League was supposed to be that advanced, and should have had all the toys in everything they could, to 'keep ahead of the houses' there is a lot missing. It is highly unlikely that the only units to be housed in caches were the bottom of the tech line units that exactly match the 3025 era models. Just not going to happen.
So the entire history, including the Star League itself has continuity and logic problems.
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Requiem
03/14/20 06:06 PM
101.185.93.54
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There are other ways to deal with the warships.
1. Other Warships;
2. Aerospace fighter with nukes;
3. ?
So number 3 is the Achilles with capitol missiles …… and with 4. a big wing aerospace fighter assault what missile will assist in tackling a warship?
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…..changing ANYTHING before the invasion means an entirely different outcome.
Correct.
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I think the special mechs made in the CC would not have been done, nor would their warship designs come out.
It would be up to individual GM’s to decide what is in / out ……
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taking out dropships is another big step.
I have to read of any security forces for their grounded dropships – they are wide open for capturing – if they leave their doors open whist on the ground even a commando unit could take them ….. then how are their units supported whist on the ground? …. Do they send in more dropships or do they just leave them there running around the planet?
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Then actually having the vehicles fighting along side the IS mechs would change a lot too.
Where were the vehicles in the Canon setting? If used correctly IS forces should have won far more battles than given – Clan forces would have had to drastically increased their bids and as for their elementals far more should have been killed off - considering the numbers they entered the IS with I doubt a single elemental would have been alive by the end of the third wave if infantry units were using all their support weapons correctly.
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There is a good chance the clans would have gotten maybe 3 jumps in, then got stopped cold by the houses, not comstar, and then pushed back out.
Correct – the Clans must change tactics to the IS way of fighting – they must have support vehicles – they must reduce the length of their Logistics chain to something more reasonable – and they must change their system of creating Warriors from a sibko to something else or the will never have the numbers the IS does.
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Rewriting the game without fixing the rules and things before 3025 that needs to be done, will only cause further issues with a new story, or even fixing the numbers and such from the current one.
One point in time must be chosen and from there it must be followed throughout time so that logistics and available numbers can be determined correctly – but this will also necessitate actual Jumpship and dropships figures / class for every unit / merchant group / house – shortly thereafter you will have a mathematicians nightmare when attempting to calculate what is going on month to month / year to year – there needs to some simplicity when it comes to numbers (such as logistics) – and yet there also needs to be an understanding of how logistics are distributed, where they are stockpiled in vast quantities so that they can be broken down into manageable numbers so that they get to every unit .
A point that should have been included – taking out logistical hubs are a primary attack point after all.
Also recruit numbers and where are they trained – these too should have been included as well as the possibility of increasing the size of these schools when needed in the future …..
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The entire issue of no advanced tech making it to the 3025 era, including designs and such is a bit much.
The entire concept of the entire IS slipping into the dark ages is a bit much – removing every worlds / academies / universities libraries / every businesses training facilities etc. is not possible unless every world was hit with massive nuclear attacks in which every world was blasted back to the stone age all at once …..
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Then again, what were the mechs in the league like that the 3025 mechs were downgraded copies of?
Royal Mechs – what about Project Phoenix – 3020 Improved Jump Jets – Super Griffin – double heat sinks and a jump of 180m and then the illegal variant 270m – why did it become obsolete? Why wasn’t this technology brought back in the future for fighting the Clans?
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there is a lot missing.
Agree …. The game creates many technological advancements (from the Star League) and yet in the future for both the IS and the Clans it is just not there - for example when it discusses the Star league’s aerospace pilots / Mechwarrior Pilots uniforms and it goes into how these interrelate with their machines sensor suites so that it makes you the pilot almost one with your machine ….. what happened here?
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So the entire history, including the Star League itself has continuity and logic problems.
Yes …. Way too many once you delve into all the books – to correct every misstate they would have to start from scratch pre Amaris and work forward.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/14/20 08:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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The game has other missiles besides nukes. For canon, they are better then nukes.
Ground batteries, such as the original Star League had is another. Even massed battle sats, like the DC was making would do. Granted, getting the battle sats made is an issue.
Now the context of the sentence about taking out the clans dropships: Not only removing the warship threat, but taking out dropships is another big step. No forces on the ground if they can't reach at least orbit.
This means BEFORE they can even deploy troops. Not after they are grounded. You can save that for when the IS starts pushing the clans back, and they can't get airborne with them.
shortly thereafter you will have a mathematicians nightmare when attempting to calculate what is going on month to month / year to year
Yet you said that doing so was easy as a spread sheet would allow it. So which is it? Easy or hard? This flip flopping is where the issues are coming from.
Without even going into the slide, the IS should have had better tech, as all those League caches found across the IS should have had the higher tech items in it. There is no way a League Locust would be the same exact thing as the 3025 Locust, for example. The canon story basically says it shouldn't be. The League's units were far better then the 3025 units line of thought..
And with all those caches being found, there had to be SOME reverse engineering and such to allow recovery of things that did get lost.
A 3025 Commando is the same thing as the 2750 version?
The Royal mechs should not have been that much more upgraded then the regular line mechs the SL used. Unless it was some new tech coming out, like a better range and damage er/pulse weapon, or maybe missiles systems that were better then streaks. Maybe something that used larger missiles for more damage, but has a smaller ammo bin.
There is an example of the SL coolant suit for mech warriors in the game. Only Comstar had them though. Which in itself is bs. The clans would have had them, and probably improved upon them as well. But that would mean the tech line would have had to have been done long before it was put out. Not retconned in, and making a mess as it did. But that goes with all the advanced tech ideas.
As you would suspect the black boxes came from the intel department, the question is WHO actually built them? Or used them?
Guessing doesn't answer the basic question. And with that, they were found in the periphery during Katrina's run from her uncle. Did the SL even make them? Was it a secret tech the Rim Worlds had to bypass the Leagues control of the HPG?
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Requiem
03/15/20 05:35 AM
101.185.93.54
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The game has other missiles besides nukes. For canon, they are better then nukes.
Such as?
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Even massed battle sats, like the DC was making would do.
As long as they are armed with the naval weapon with the greatest range – as if you bring in a warship with a weapon that has a greater range than a battle sat you can just stand off and obliterate them one and a time with absolute impunity.
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dropships
Orbital drop …. Drop-ships are only allowed to land for logistics / repair purposes only and must then return to orbit until they are called on to return by their units on world?
Every time they come down / go up IF forces will send in fighter attack – what if the IS is able to hide artillery units and when they are landed they come under attack!
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mathematicians nightmare
Yes it is a mathematicians nightmare and yes it can be put upon a spread sheet – however getting people to agree with all the assumptions will never occur – no to people will agree with the underlying assumptions.
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the IS should have had better tech
Agree …. there needs to a dedicated update of technology list …. As well as an explanation as to where it came from where it was reverse engineered and when it underwent mass production …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/15/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Kraken Missile is over 2 times more effective then the Santa Ana. 10 points verse the 4 for the nuke. The Killer Whale is the same damage as the nuke, without the mess.
The example of the naval weapons range is the case for all battles where one side it trying to minimize damage to their forces. Sit at range and fire while the enemy can't fire back. But it doesn't lessen the fact that it is true. Same thing with a massive fort. You try to get in forces that out range it, and pound away. As the fort(battlesat) can't really move, then you have the advantage. So that means you make the satellites with the longer range weapons, but even that doesn't mean victory. The enemy probably has better armor, and far more weapons then your satellites do. And you can pull back to repair. Massing the sats is another issue, as the enemy came just move out of your coverage. But it is at least something.
You could use atmospheric craft for hitting dropships as well, if you can detect them in time. Say a squadron of 18 mechbuster fighters could well bring down any dropship rather quickly. Doing this two or three times, would force all of their dropships be guarded by fighters. Which means scrambling to get them allowed into the forces, then sent to the IS. Which for some clans, isn't going to be enough. Mech and elementals being the primary focus of most, so fighter pilots isn't in huge supplies.
The issue of not all will agree with the assumptions made in the numbers, may well be one of the reasons the developers didn't make a list of unit assets for even each year. And to be honest, I don't think they could. The Jumpship count can not even come close, as it would show that their little 'lack' of them isn't correct. Otherwise, the periphery would be dead. Most don't make jumpships, and if the need were that great, the houses would be confiscating them for their own purposes.
Now add to it, those that do, would be invaded in those systems that do make them.
As a side note, this would remove pirates for the most part. There would still be some, but not as many.
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Requiem
03/16/20 06:09 AM
101.185.93.54
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Killer Whale – year available 3051 (FC) – 50 tons
Kraken Missile – year available 3057 – 220 tons
Can someone explain how a HE warhead has the same damage as that of a nuclear warhead?
Wouldn’t fortresses have their own artillery – so dueling artillery – also conventional bombers access to these alone can defeat an artillery battery.
Yes I agree conventional aircraft can take on a Dropship – the issue however – how many turns do you get before they reach your altitude limit?
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so fighter pilots isn't in huge supplies.
Disagree … when canon books state that every world have conventional fighters they also must have the pilots to use them.
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The issue of not all will agree with the assumptions made in the numbers, may well be one of the reasons the developers didn't make a list of unit assets for even each year. And to be honest, I don't think they could.
I believe they could, but the arguments that would evolve from this would be never ending …. Hence no numbers.
I agree however – the peripheries access to jumpships over time would decrease as the Great Houses would steal them for their own use …. And yes pirate numbers will decrease …..
So maybe the number of jumpships should be far more than given and every house is able to create more and in mass numbers so that the periphery will have access to Jumpships in numbers …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/20 01:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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First off, dropships require time to do some things. But I was thinking more of hitting the dropships as they descend to a world, not so much as lift off. Grounded, those ships would make even a bigger target, though the forces they have might counter that.
Mech and elementals being the primary focus of most, so fighter pilots isn't in huge supplies.
Full sentences helps when trying to figure out meanings. The Mech and Elementals being the primary focuse, should tell you that was meant for the clans not having the fighter pilots in huge supply. The IS would have more then a few waiting or could be sent/trained.
We also had the discussion of how a real nuke would/should do more damage then an HE or other type of missile. Game rules for canon.
The range example was for naval weapons, not conventional ones like artillery. Still annoying that they had ground batteries in the original SL, yet nothing is allowed in the clan invasion and beyond? Only the attacker has access to things like this, to make it harder for the defenders to return the favor.
We already know the stated numbers is far too low to even begin to keep the IS working. Some are not even owned by the houses, but private investors, which would account for more then hinted at with the 2000-3000 range.
Also, a point that needs to be made. Some periphery states make jumpships. The monolith production from the old jumpships and dropships, suggests they are made 2 ships in 3 years. That is the largest jumpship in normal production. Not sure how many are lost in combat, but for 30 years, that is 20 jumpships. Not a huge number, but what should be the extreme end of making them. Resources were said to be a limiting factor.
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Requiem
03/16/20 02:59 PM
101.185.93.54
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Grounded, those ships would make even a bigger target.
Grounded and ….
• Unloading military forces; or
• Logistics – repair and refit services.
Available security forces need to be considered.
Also if they are just unloading military forces – how long does it take – and once embarked will they then return to space to await being called for a logistics run – ie. the time they are on planet can be considered a short period of time.
I agree the number of clan fighter pilots to that of IS fighter / bomber pilots should be a vast difference in numbers – thus the issue of gaining air superiority for many IS Vs. Clan battles should be taken into doubt.
I also believe if the IS has access to naval weapons they should be allowed as Ground based artillery against warships in low orbit attempting an orbital bombardment. In addition Capital missile silos should also be allowed upon the worlds and be used against any warship within their proximity.
Though the main issue is that the majority of all battles written are just Mech on Mech fights – they forget the IS have vehicles, VTOLS, Infantry and conventional fighters – it is just too unbelievable to consider the Clans could stand up to these forces whilst attempting to fight on a planetary scale.
If Periphery states can make jumpships – why didn’t a Successor state attempt to annex it as they are just that precious, wouldn’t it be worth annexing an entire Periphery state just so they could control this one vital facility? …. And once under their control, and with production increase measures, how many more could manufactured form 1 ship every 18 months to one a year so that is 30 in 30 years or could they even double this to 60 in 30 years – how many more units could they move to the front if they had such a resource – how would this increase their merchant navy capability (ability to trade).
Could such a number reduce the resource gap for other facilities – we will never know as the economics of a Successor state is beyond our ability to compute.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/20 05:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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The only thing I can say about how long it takes is by some of the fluff in the jumpship and dropship book as well as some novels and other books.
The dropships have to turn off their main drive in order to debark units on the ground. It said it takes a few hours to refire the engines when the go to take off, yet you see so many dropships touch down, load up a few mechs, then launch again. Part of the writers ignoring, or not being told how things go.
There is also in those books that it says it could be 20 minutes on up to 2 or more hours to load, depending on dropship and units being done. Unloading was said to be about half that time.
From the stories, it seems clan dropships stay grounded. Those involved in the truce war did, and I do not remember anywhere,other then in trials, the dropship was needed, and didn't stay after dropping off the combatants.
Take the ground based naval weapons one step further. They can target dropships. Which is probably why they didn't allow any to be done, except in the video games. So more inconsistent bs.
I don't remember where it is, but the TC had a jumpships manufacturer in their main center, and I want to say the MoC had one.
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Requiem
03/17/20 04:57 PM
101.185.93.54
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Jump-ships
First – turn off their drives and then disembark – Hours to cool down and then you can launch;
Second – park and idle the engine – depending on the Drop-ship disembark (20 min to 2 hours) then just launch back into space;
Third – grounded others remain in space;
So it is up to the player to decide what their drop-ships will do? Or is up to the GM?
Ground-based naval lasers
Sooner or later they will have to become a staple weapon upon the majority of important worlds.
If both the TC and the MoC cam manufacture jumships why wouldn’t one of the successor states near them invade – it shouldn’t take all that long and it really shouldn’t be that damaging.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 12:10 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with the TC is where it's at and the main cluster of their realm. The core is supposed to be surrounded with asteroids and such, that it is very risky to jump in without exact coordinates. And the TC isn't going to just sit by and let that happen.
I have to find out if the objective raids is correct, or what other sources had the MoC. Objective raids doesn't say either has them, but this would counter another source book.
The MoC would likely be left alone, as they were on the border of FWL and CC. I think the MoC had agreed to sell some to those houses, so kept them from doing much with them. With other, more powerful and hostile forces on the opposite sides of those realms, they might have decided to just stick with that.
The big problem with naval ground batteries is the same thing with having the harsh space force. The game would have to lose the mech as the main focus of the game. Something the developers don't want, and more then a few players would hate. As this isn't a space game per se, it would destroy a lot of the base players. Same thing with VTOLS and such.
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Requiem
03/18/20 06:26 AM
101.185.93.54
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The issue with the TC
It does not matter if it is surrounded by asteroids – a jumpship can jump just outside in open space and move in under its own power.
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The MoC
Why didn’t the CC invade – the MoC is right on top of them
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The game would have to lose the mech as the main focus of the game
Doubtful – unless you can fire horizontally with a naval laser taking out whole mountains in the process – given their mass – doubtful.
Thus as they are in the up position permanently the Mech should still be allowed to land outside of their line of sight and then hoof it in an attempt to penetrate their security force and then destroy / capture the weapon.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 11:02 AM
66.74.60.165
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It does not matter if it is surrounded by asteroids – a jumpship can jump just outside in open space and move in under its own power.
Think about what you just types. A jumpship is NOT going to even try to maneuver thru an asteroid field. At least in the older books it said going thru there in maneuverable dropships was dangerous enough. It is why the TC was the hardest to conquer. Those outside of the cluster were bad enough, but those inside were aided by the lack of easy way to get forces inside.
Still don't seem to understand the Piranha Effect it seems. The CC had the FWL and FS on their borders. To hit the MoC, they would have to remove forces from some where. Moving units would attract attention, and possibly get several raids on up to invasions going. This is not even going into worlds revolting or even just major protests to shut them down. The FWL might have been able to do it, but the little states in it were all over the board, and would not organize to do so.
On a side note, I can't find out where it said they had one. I have seen where it says they make the Leopard dropships. That would explain why they could not do much to invade the IS. 4 mechs and 2 fighters per ship? And how many dropships of what type would be needed for a battalion of troops to be sent?
The land outside the weapons firing arc is possible, as long as they don't have all the arcs covered. The big issue with this is orbiting the planet. From the sounds of it, all dropships do several orbits around a work and it isn't a geosyncronus orbit. I would suspect that is just normal landing procedures, and you should be able to change it, but I don't know.
And the permanently up position for the ground guns wouldn't happen. They have to fire in a full arc to the horizon. And it might be semantics, but they can fire along the ground. They just can't target anything smaller then a dropship. You could very well defend the emplacement from mechs with gun emplacements and vehicles. Art batteries with good spotters is another element to this. Fighters would be a bit more difficult to stop from doing damage, as they can fly in fast, hit and run. Even defending fighters can't really slow them down to take them out quick enough.
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Requiem
03/20/20 12:35 AM
1.158.222.248
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Jumpship can move towards and then send the Dropships through – from any angle plus this is a huge sphere – there is no way the asteroids can cover all of this sphere …. There must be gaps ….
Question – what age would either CC, FWL or FS his the MoC? As when it was attacked will determine their response …..
Considering the number of units the number of units the FS has at certain times they should have had more than enough to hold both the DC and the CC off whilst taking the MoC.
The FWL or the CC however would be difficult ……
Remember there are massive variants per dropship class – the union alone is supposed to have twelve ….
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I would suspect that is just normal landing procedures, and you should be able to change it, but I don't know.
New rules would be required for this …..
In addition with a complete and thorough explanation would also be required …..
So until then, home rules?
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they just can't target anything smaller then a dropship.
Not so – establish a grid system for all the area around the gun – in the enemy goes into a grid then fire for effect with a wide beam then just work out the chance of hitting anything in that grid – considering the power of the energy discharge even a near hit would cause massive damage due to the thermal discharge.
As for fighters this would be very difficult to hit ….. especially when they are moving extremely fast ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/20/20 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are gaps. Unstable and require maneuverable ships to get thru, hence no jumpships. And it is possible to have asteroids around the entire area. This isn't a mine field, but debris from the area forming naturally. Most single star systems tend to pull stuff towards the plane that all planets tend to follow. That is where the statement of not surrounding is true. But it is not absolute. I don't know the whole story of the area, just what was printed a long time ago.
The CC had the FWL and FS to deal with. They could not afford to pull forces off their borders to think about hitting the MoC.
The FS could not pull enough forces off their borders with the DC and CC in order to really do more then raids on the TC.
The FWL might be able to hit the MoC, as the CC and LC could be stalemated for a while. The lack of coordination or cooperation was the problem. Some in then FWL had trade agreements with the MoC, and would fight against any sort of attack by the others.
If the union example was to answer the Leopard Dropship statement, a max of 6 mechs can be put into one, but that means removing the fighters. As the MoC only builds Leopards, they would have to buy ships from somewhere to even think of invading other realms. Even defense is a nightmare with just using those ships.
Larger ships have more flexibility. That is for sure. But the Leopard isn't really one of them.
I was the one that has said you should be able to use the naval weapons on ground targets, but having tunnels/chasms cut out by the weapon, so you just shoot down that position. It would be preset, and fill the entire opening with fire. It just isn't in the rules, and I doubt it ever will be. Too easy to defend positions like that.
One more weapon that doesn't seem like it would make a comeback. An airburst style that doesn't need to strike an aircraft, just explode in proximity. Capital missiles comes to mind. Take out fighters with this style. But it prevents ground battles as well, since you can't use fighter strikes or even VTOLs to take down defenses.
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Requiem
03/20/20 03:36 AM
1.158.222.248
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And it is possible to have asteroids around the entire area.
Really? – consider the area this would represent ……. How?
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They could not afford to pull forces off their borders to think about hitting the MoC.
Completely disagree - 1st SW and 2nd SW this could have been achieved also when you use y Alt in defeating the CC they could have easily have secured the FWL border and sent half the attacking force into the MoC following the end of the War.
However as stated in my Alt if you give them assistance you can form an alliance – you could even then purchase half of it rather than invading – and in so doing place a knife in back of the FWL via the MoC
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It just isn't in the rules, and I doubt it ever will be. Too easy to defend positions like that.
And yet common sense says you can do it.
The Game has allowed them in via the Jihad – thus from then on they should have become common place ….
By restricting them shows a lack of understanding as to the proliferation of military armaments ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/20/20 11:37 AM
66.74.60.165
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You are talking about a dust cloud in space. There are some that are larger then the Milkyway galaxy. Normally, they are ones that form stars, but not always. Might want to actually read up, or watch a video on the subject.
Unobtainium tech. Only the bad guys can have tech that does things beyond normal, and are more powerful then you can get. Too many games do this.
I don't have a problem with restricting a few things, but keep it restricted. Don't use it and say it isn't possible, or can't be reversed engineered.
And as it seems the questions come, and get answered then the alt is brought up, you are not looking for how or why things happen in the game, you are looking for arguments. Don't ask things then say in the alt it isn't like that.
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Requiem
03/20/20 01:54 PM
1.158.222.248
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Asteroids are not the same as a Nebula.
consider
https://nineplanets.org/asteroid-belt/
Also remember Drop-ships can go “over” or “under” the asteroid belt – also our belt in not very dense (average distance of 1 million Kilometers between objects) so there isn’t much to avoid.
So as for the TC’s asteroid belt how dense is the field and is it like ours a plane shape or is it supposed to be a sphere shape, as without this information it becomes very difficult to comprehend what is there.
If technology is brought into the game by TPTB, at any point in time, then how can it remain permanently restricted?
It cannot be!
Over time everything should be able to be reverse engineered – case in point where are all the WoB weapons systems they introduced into the game? – Case in point why does it take so long to create a more advanced anything …. It is like research and development is next to non existent …..
Just saying it is lost to time does not hold water …..someone somewhere should be able to work it out ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/21/20 12:19 AM
66.74.60.165
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Think about it before you write. If you could go over it, then jumping into the zenith or nadir point would put you above the plane of asteroids. So why would they say it was an issue if this is the case?
Asteroids are part of what makes up a solar system. The only difference between them and a meteor, is asteroids don't fall to earth. Entire galaxies contain fields like this, though they are not the galaxy. Might want to look up the info on the this, as you won't believe me.
The issue with WOB is that not all facilities they used was destroyed. There should be records and even full schematics on some of the items. As was the point with the old Star League tech. There is no way Comstar could have made sure all advanced tech was destroyed. The entire Helm discovery would show this. There had to be others like this.
And the frustrating but true answer to them being able to do what they want, is it is their game to do with as they please. It does cause people to walk away from the game, or do like most and just ignore the rules and do it their way.
So the houses don't invest in clan tech. You damn sure know others will. I seriously doubt Brewer would have said no to making it for Defiance. The periphery would have done so, as they need something to counter the IS and their massive reserves. They don't need millions of them, as they don't have the units to put them in, other then pillboxes and such.
I did learn some about the universe in school so many years ago. Not sure of the junk they are teaching today, or even since then. Also check out the definition for a planet. It goes something like a body orbiting a star that has cleared the debris from it's orbital passing.
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Requiem
03/21/20 06:43 AM
1.158.222.248
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Think about it before you write.
A sphere of asteroids which is very, very dense ….. consider the area ….. consider if the sun’s rays can get through (Permanent winter on any planet there in) or is it so large that it encloses the sun ……
Really?
You might want to look this up …… and Nebula …..
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The issue with WOB is that not all facilities they used was destroyed. There should be records and even full schematics on some of the items.
And yet all WoB tech just disappeared, just like all the tech from the Star league to just prior to the Helm Memory Core being discovered ……
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is it is their game to do with as they please….
No it is not ….. it is our game thus we can put this missing tech back in whenever we want for our home games.
There is something every wrong with the game when after many years of the clans being within the IS the Great Houses still do not have a comparable Technology with the Clans - with these new weapons they could have easily inserted them into the IS Omnis that never eventuated at the same time!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/21/20 12:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Page 15 of the book The Periphery #1629. Paraphrasing it, basically the Hyades Cluster is surrounded by a think nebula, that obscures all visual sight into the nebula, as well as being surrounded by s massive asteroid field several hundred kilometers wide. Inside there is no less then eight systems linked within each others gravity fields. 37 planetary bodies shunting back and forth between the competing stars.
Also. A nebula can produce it's own light, as the gases are hot and as said before, some produce stars.
For game purposes, this one has a few solar systems in it. As they do have a type called a planet nebula, it is very possible to have planets in one. I don't know if they can have stars in with them, though some nebula are formed from super novas.
Ahhh. Now the correct wording comes out. OUR HOME GAMES.
As said before, you don't own the game, but had the rights to use it's context.
Every game has things wrong with them. At this time, the only matter known to travel faster then light is the neutrino. Ships? We can't get to half lightspeed yet as the fuel consumption is more then the ship can hold. This is being worked on, but until then, it isn't possible for humans to go even light speed much less faster.
A lot of weapons don't exist either. And quick action exoskeletons haven't come about.
Now back to the topic. A lot of TO&Es are annoying as hell, as they have mechs made in rival nations in them. I understand capturing them, but how long do you normally have them in combat? Even the ultra elite pilots get hit from time to time. And this is why I doubt they will ever had a full TO&E that spans even 20 years.
I would like to see the Dragoons after the 4th war. And with this, shouldn't Davion/Kurita have some salvage of Imps, Hornets, and a few others the IS didn't have before the Dragoons arrived?
Oh yeah. The ones without ammo blew up when their reactors were hit. Yet in all of those explosions, the legs remain.
Some units have had complete lances or more be destroyed in combat. The 33rd Avalon Hussers (I believe) were mauled during the Galtor campaign. I seriously doubt they could have gotten all the mechs that were destroyed, in the same models and numbers. Some are not made in FS space. The LC and maybe FWL might sell some, but doubtful the DC and CC would. Relying on salvage isn't going to happen.
But it would be nice to see something like this, as some mercs never seem to lose any units, except tanks and infantry.
The changing out of mechs does change how the unit works, including tactics. Fire support with nothing but short ranged weapons just isn't the same as LRM/LL/PPC carriers. And an assault unit with a company of wasps, stingers and locusts?
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Requiem
03/22/20 03:53 AM
1.158.222.248
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surrounded by s massive asteroid field several hundred kilometers wide.
Ie. donnut shaped – you can go over or under.
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Inside there is no less then eight systems linked within each others gravity fields. 37 planetary bodies shunting back and forth between the competing stars.
Unless you have a computer program that understands these shunting planetary bodies it will be almost impossible to know its exact location at any given point in time.
This is where the real problem lies – knowing where it should be
However – did anyone consider the weather changes as they shunt around these systems as well as the time for each of these different conditions – agriculture would be incredibly difficult – how you could expect anyone to live in these conditions would be incredibly difficult to understand.
Also what happens on a planetary body when the gravity changes when it shifts from one sun to another has anyone worked this out?
Sorry but this situation requires a book on its own just to explain everything …..
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TO&E that spans even 20 years.
It comes down to replacement parts – either off the shelf or made by engineers on the spot as a means of fixing – restoration of your Model A Vs the conversion to a hot rod / Rat rod!
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shouldn't Davion/Kurita have some salvage of Imps, Hornets, and a few others the IS didn't have before the Dragoons arrived?
Yes they should have – and no the legs would not have survived
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Relying on salvage isn't going to happen.
Depends on the GM and what they say remains ….. ie. how it died will determine the salvage …. it will also be dependent upon when one side retreats from the battle and what its rear echelon security force is ….
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The changing out of mechs does change how the unit works, including tactics.
Correct – over time all house units should become more standardized to the machines they produce only mercs who travel widely should have a constant access to many different machines from different houses.
And only during wars – raids etc – should a rival house have the chance of acquiring an enemies Mech etc.
And as such these captured variants should be placed in a raiding unit to cause an initial confusion with your enemies Mech Warriors via a visual scan.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/22/20 04:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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Surrounded doesn't work the same in space as it does on the ground. A speck of dust is surrounded by water and freezes like that to become a snowflake.
And I do agree that the gravity shifts would make jumping into the area a nightmare, if not close to impossible. Growing on the surface would take a lot of time to figure out. This also depends on the cycles of being sent to another star's gravity. If it takes a dozen years, then it isn't as bad as the term 'shunted' sounds. The way it does sound is like the worlds are a pinball in a machine.
It isn't likely there will be even a single arm actuator in stock for a Panther or Vindicator in the FS, even though they are some of the main mechs the enemy uses. There may be a few places, as was said in another thread that someone might do limited runs of this stuff. Probably a border world that sees a lot of raids and such.
It is possible to get them, but relying on salvage isn't going to keep you in parts. The GMs can do what ever in their universes, as you could even build your own factories to do such things, as well as make the units, but in canon, it isn't so likely.
Yes, our group did something like this one time. Didn't like the way canon was setup with a few units, so we modified them, and made them for ourselves, while selling the stock versions to customers. The Jenner and Panther mechs from the DC were nice. Remove the srms out of both, and heatsinks in the jenner and lrms in the panther.
As for changing the way a unit works when getting replacement mechs, most of the time, at least in canon, you dealt with what ever you had. Either that, or you were dispossessed. Even in the LC/FS, you were probably not going to get the mech type you lost in combat. Supplies and such being as they were. Even just a shortage of them would cause issues, such as the factory being damaged. The big one is the Awesome in other nations. From the books, It is only produced in the FWL. Which was stated as having problems making ppcs. Kind of stupid, but just another quirk in the game.
During the 4th war In the novels, the Davion Light guards commander turned down a few good mechs, as they didn't fit in the Light Guard concept. Too heavy. But this just shows you how fast your unit composition changes. I think it is foolish, but I didn't write up the story, or the ideas behind it. Like Zeta battalion in the Dragoons, I seriously doubt they kept the same mechs through out the time they were in the IS. No way to get a brand new Imp, Shogun, and such. For their own versions, a new mech that was bought, would be refitted their way. Which is a waste, but I can see people getting used to a specific set of weapons.
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Requiem
03/27/20 06:51 AM
1.158.222.248
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Inner Sphere Military Academy
Consider the size of many American Universities; Their population can reach nearly 60,000 for a graduate to earn a three / four year University degree.
Considering the population size of each House as well as the size of their military forces their Academies could be size of small Cities 300,000 to 600,000 would not be considered unreasonable given the small number of military universities each House has.
In all reality at least 60 - 70% of the graduating class will end up in positions behind the scenes Logistics Support Administration Naval positions on Jump / Drop Ships etc - you would only expect the remainder to be assigned to front line positions
And then there are the Boot Camps – as these were never written into the game the number they could produce is anyones guess.
Given these numbers it is quite conceivable that with every missive requesting logistics requirements you could, as a House Unit, request a personnel number update and upon the next Logistics transport low and behold there they will be.
Something the Clans could never achieve with a Sibko system geared to replacement personnel (on the Clan Home Worlds this may work but within the Inner Sphere this is absolutely useless!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/27/20 12:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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How many try to join the military and are completely unfit to do anything? Even with behind the scenes jobs, they still have to make it thru physicals and even psychology evaluations. Then some drop out, as they realize this isn't for them.
I am reasonably sure that most academies are no where near full in students most of the time.
Without conscription, in times of war, most people DON'T want to join up, as they would probably be sent to fight. A few would, as they want to get out and shoot others. But that is more of an exception.
The boot camps are written into the game. The training 'battalions' being a good one for those that can't get to the academies, as they are not on every world. The lack of equipment limits this, as well as the planets/regions requirements. But the numbers of what can be produced it a question. I believe most of the training units are using what little reserves the area has, with a few probably being machines assigned to active duty soldiers, so they are not something the trainees will keep upon graduation.
The whole sibko system was not based on high losses in a quick amount of time. The limiting of losses with the trials removed the necessity, as well as the lack of bloodnames that were available. There was no desire to have thousands of candidates for a single name. Waste would be something to consider here, and as stated in the books. The younger warriors were chaffing as the older blood named warriors were not retiring as fast, so they could move up. Had more graduated, this would probably have started a civil war. Much like the world today. Pressures from the masses pushing against the 'elite' few.
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Requiem
03/27/20 05:55 PM
1.158.222.248
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How many try to join the military and are completely unfit to do anything?
This is where a little research would assist in understanding the future, such as the Battletech Universe …. Currently Westpoint accepts 9.6% applications out of every 100; Annapolis accepts 8.4 applications out of every 100;
Then when you compare the populations of a single country to that of hundreds of worlds within a single Successor State mathematical trend analysis indicates some very high numbers. So unless the Military Colleges are restricted in their scope by the size of their infrastructure (Buildings and teaching corp.) the size of these institutions would be staggering.
Also consider the size of the each Successor State Military – what is printed is just the front line forces – ever considered how many people it takes to keep a single person in the front line? At the moment it is approximately 6 – however when you factor in that each successor State’s logistical state is spread over hundreds of worlds this number could quite conceivably be considered a ridiculously low number – in all probability you could be looking at a factor of ten to a hundred times this quite easily due to each world requiring a military presence – not only to advise the local lord but to ensure their militia is operating to a minimal standard and equipped and paid correctly (plus recruitment facilities) etc.
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The boot camps are written into the game.
Really? Where are they as the game only discusses MechWarrior Training units ……
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…… as they are not on every world. The lack of equipment limits this
Infantry equipment is a limited …..
Vehicles are a limited in numbers ……..
Conventional Aircraft are limited in numbers …….
Sorry but this must be qualified to each era …. 3020 maybe ….. 3050 and beyond …. No don’t think so when you consider the number on new vehicles and ‘Mechs being produced at the same time – the military industrial complex post 3040 would be ramping up again thus by 3050 would be staggering.
However this will never be quantifiable as again there are no hard numbers thus we are back to making assumptions based upon each GMs underlying belief as to what is going on.
However I would like to say every world (unless very backward) should have their own small arms manufacturer as well as a vehicle manufacturing facility than can convert their vehicles produced into a military vehicle (ICE).
Remember post 3050 the idea of scarce Inner Sphere resources and technology can no longer be conserved a factual statement.
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The whole sibko system was not based on high losses in a quick amount of time.
Jade Falcon – Officially 1 made it through their trial of position – the other 1 had to be given a second go around to win their position ….
What has been the highest number ever graduated from a single Sibko? Again a number that has NEVER been printed so each GM is back to guessing once more …..
So if this number is considered the Norm the entire number of graduates within Clan Space is next to nothing compared to a Graduating Class at a Military College within the Inner Sphere.
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Had more graduated, this would probably have started a civil war. Much like the world today.
Consider - Loss depletion report of Clan Warriors within the Inner Sphere ….
As this statement indicates the Clans DO NOT have the numbers to replace the massive amount killed within the Inner Sphere Operations Zone. Over time their limited numbers would force them to retreat – they can in no way win in a war of attrition against the Inner Sphere unless they completely change their society and the way they create their warrior Caste – they need to introduce a vehicle logistics corp – they need a dedicated PGC corp that is 100 times the size it is as written within each Clans 3050 Touman to even be considered an effective garrison force. However that would mean that the Free-births now outnumber the true-born within their military ….
No matter how you look at it the numbers do not add up there are too many holes in the story that cannot be considered factual when exposed to rational thought.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/27/20 11:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Blackjack School of Combat is one such boot camp style academy. It puts out grunts, not mech warriors. I do admit, It might be more suited for infantry officers, but I know they have trained normal infantry.
I want to say they do anti mech infantry.
Again. How many actually try to join, and how many fail even the physical? I would also throw in there, planetary governors and such limiting that even more as they try to promote their children being the best.
Infantry would be higher to be accepted, thought vehicles less likely, with air craft being even more limited. Mechs and space assets even more limited.
I made a poor assumption that we were talking about mechs for the lack of equipment. So that is on me. Each world should have some sort of machining ability, even if it is just to make ammo. Ground vehicles is the most likely armored unit to be built, but that may well require importing the equipment. Limiting arms to potential anti government groups would be the case here. No one thought of a force like the clans coming in. Just other successor states and pirates.
I don't remember where it was stated, but between 0 and 5 is the normal number for warrior graduation. The Jade Phoenix Saga was put in that way, as to promote the story. Aidan was the first to get a retry that I know of. All others were if you fail, you wash out. No do overs. That number may have been in the Jade Falcon series.
The clans could not win a war of attrition, but does that mean the house lords should spend their troopers lives needlessly doing such a combat? Before changing infantry damage, a clan Warhawk could wipe out close to a company of infantry in one volley. Each vehicle destroyed would have between 1 and 8 or so crew members that could well die. And even then, getting to the surface to deploy was an issue. Once combat to take the world was over, the bid to do so was over. There is nothing to really stop them from using any forces available to destroy those ships and units. And with this, the clans should have had pocket warships available to them. As they had the tech and resources, it makes more sense then the IS, which was just coming up with the naval weapons.
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Requiem
03/28/20 06:42 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
The Blackjack School of Combat is one such boot camp style academy.
A privately run military academy …. being open to any student who could afford the entrance fees
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jade_Falcon_School_of_Conflict_on_Blackjack
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How many actually try to join, and how many fail
As per above…. approximately 9 in every 100 are accepted.
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between 0 and 5 is the normal number for warrior graduation.
Even with 5 per Sibko graduation it is still a ridiculously small amount when it comes to reinforcement numbers ….
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but does that mean the house lords should spend their troopers lives needlessly doing such a combat?
Needs must as the Devil drives ….
Individual units are one thing, however when you have combat teams that is another …. Especially when they have been trained to work together in as a team.
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And with this, the clans should have had pocket warships available to them.
When were these ships made?
Just to create the Exodus road you will need – two massive space stations one in Clan Space and the other in the Deep Periphery to form massive pallets of equipment and in the Inner Sphere to Bulk Break them - A massive number of HPG relay stations to communicate from the Hall of Khans to their front line units within the Inner Sphere – A massive number of Potemkin Class ships to transport Logistics to and from Clan Space / Deep Periphery – then a massive number of merchant navy jump-ships and Drop-ships - even with the 50 years from inception to invasion these forces will take time to create.
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As they had the tech and resources, it makes more sense then the IS, which was just coming up with the naval weapons.
If this is the case …. nuclear war upon the same scale as the First Succession War.
Choose a rough parity when it comes to warships or nuclear Armageddon!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/28/20 12:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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How fast did the Leviathan go from concept to being built for the Ghost Bears to get their pop to the IS? I am going to assume they decided this just after they entered the FRR, not years in advance. Also, just how many ships can the clans make? And the big one. They are a warrior race that use warships. Why wouldn't they have pocket warships in their exile? Even if it was just the Snow Ravens, it would have been done.
Experimental models? Proof of Concept?
This actually falls under the mechs rule the game. Pocket warships means less chance of ground combat happening.
Again. The sibko was not meant to replace large losses, like what the IS would cause. They were enough to replenish the losses in the trials. And obviously, that wasn't enough for some clans as they lost more and couldn't regain the stock. The fluff even suggests that, like the Hells Horses being forced to use vehicles heavily. The mech warrior numbers couldn't keep up with their losses.
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Requiem
03/28/20 05:22 PM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
How fast did the Leviathan go from concept to being built for the Ghost Bears to get their pop to the IS?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Leviathan_Heavy_Transport_(WarShip_class)
As per Sarna the design was authorized in 3044 and Introduced in 3055 – Passengers 250,000
And this is where the story runs off the rails … when it comes to the numbers required …. only two were being produced with the start of Operation Revival (3049 -50) – with their new Bear Khan shortly into the Invasion construction ground to a halt until Bjorn Jorgensson became Khan (some-time after June 3050)
It would not be until after the Battle of Tukayyid (May 3052) would the Ghost Bear Khans decide to relocate the entire Ghost Bear Clan to their Inner Sphers occupation Zone – as per Canon - at this stage they only had two Leviathans – passengers 500,000.
The population of Clan Ghost Bear (the smallest of all the Clans – ½ the normal population of most and only ¼ to 1/5 the size of the largest Clans) is over 25,000,000 even with 2 Leviathans you would need a fleet in excess of 4 to 5 times the number of ships Kerensky had in his original exodus to move their entire population in one hit.
Even with the all the Clans entire fleets combined you would still not have enough ships!
In this case, whomever, came up with this did not look at the underlying numbers and consider the Logistical requirements to complete the move.
Requisite numbers – as close to 100 - 110 Leviathans as possible – and this is just for the people
You would also need a comparable number of Potemkin Class Transports for their entire technological facilities to be transplanted into the Inner Sphere
So in all reality this plan should have been 50 to 100 year plan (minimum) to construct the fleet (in secret) to even consider the move viable.
Then when you factor in the three months Clan Nova Cat had to vacate the Clan Home Worlds following their Abjuration some-time after 3058 – depending on the size of their population which could be well over 100,000,000 would require a fleet 4 to 5 times that of the Ghost Bears – so where did this fleet magically appear from?
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Even if it was just the Snow Ravens, it would have been done. Experimental models? Proof of Concept?
When you look at the number of ships / stations required for Operation Revival – these pocket warships would have to be at a minimum 75+ years old (2975). Thus a re-write of Clan history will be required for your game to enable these to be produced – and then stopped (3000) to ramp up for Operation Revival’s logistical requirements.
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Again. The sibko was not meant to replace large losses, like what the IS would cause. They were enough to replenish the losses in the trials. And obviously, that wasn't enough for some clans as they lost more and couldn't regain the stock.
Then where did all the Invasion Clan’s Warriors come from to keep their units at peak efficiency – the numbers can’t say on the one hand they have a shortage due to sibko numbers and on the other say they can maintain their force numbers at peak numbers throughout the entire war!
Again the numbers show that the favoritism given to the Clans with a completely implausible history based upon what should have been their Loss Depletion Report whist within the Inner Sphere.
Over time the Clans should have imploded due to the amount of losses they were taking – so unless the Initial Clans were replaced by other Clans (Trials of absorption) their invasion should have collapsed and they should have been ejected from the inner sphere!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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