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Issues with regards to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War

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Requiem 07/03/20 06:53 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Combining Information within – Is Alexander Kerensky just incompetent or a villain and tyrant (fyi – all three) As this has progressed to a stage where it requires its own forum page Military forces prior to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War:- SLDF Navy:- https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine#Late_SLDF_4 It is assumed that the fleet prior to the Amaris War included 200 Cruiser Class 300 Battleship Class 800 Frigate Class 300 Destroyer Class 1000 Corvette Class 3200 Assault Class Total 5,800 War-Ships Of these 2,600 ships mounted advanced weapons. SLDF Army:- https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force …. and then an excel sheet utilizing all 20 of the SLDF Armies, whist considering the following information contained therein …. BattleMech Divisions – consist of two ‘Mech brigades, one infantry brigade, one armored Brigade Mechanized Infantry Brigade – two mechanized infantry brigades, one ‘Mech Brigade, one armored brigade. Infantry Divisions – consist of two non-mechanized infantry brigades, one light ‘Mech Brigade, one armored Brigade Jump Infantry Divisions – two jump infantry brigades, one light ‘Mech brigade, one armored brigade, two wings A Division consists of 3 to 4 Brigades …. and a Brigade consists of 3 Regiments. Ground Units:- Heavy Assault – heavy-to-assault BattleMech units + fourth company of artillery Battle – medium-to-heavy BattleMech Striker – light-to-medium weight BattleMech Dragoon – heavy-to-assault BattleMech, tanks and hovercraft Hussar – medium-to-heavy BattleMechs, tanks and hovercraft Light Horse – light-to-medium BattleMechs and vehicles This originally provides the following information: Royal BattleMech Divisions ………………… 25 Royal Mechanized Infantry Divisions ……… 28 Royal Jump Infantry Divisions …………….. .13 Royal Infantry Divisions …………………….. 3 BattleMech Divisions ……………….…….… 95 Mechanized Infantry Divisions ……………. 165 Jump Infantry Divisions …………………….. 62 Infantry Divisions …………………………… 42 Independent Regiments …………………… 271 Once calculated this provides the a more definitive information package regarding the Land Army of the SLDF as at 2765 ….. BattleMech Regiments ………… 1,299 Additional ‘Mech Ground Units: Heavy-to-Assault …………………..18 Medium –to-Heavy …………….… 18 Light-to-Medium …………………. 23 Light ………………………………..360 …. Total ….. 1,708 Regiments Combined Arms Units: Heavy-to-Assault ‘Mechs + Vehicles ….. 72 Medium-to-Heavy ‘Mechs + Vehicles. … 49 Light-to-Medium ‘Mechs + Vehicles …... 49 …. Total …. 170 Regiments Armor Units: Armor …………………………. 1,299 Heavy Tank …………….……. 4 Medium Tank ……………..… 1 Light Tank …………………… 1 Hover …………………………. 3 Wheeled ………………….…. 1 ….. Total …… 1,309 Regiments Artillery Units: Artillery ………………………… 6 Regiments Infantry: Infantry………………..…….. 360 Jump Infantry …………..….. 45 Mechanized ……………….. 561 Non-Mechanized ………….. 270 CAAN Marine ……………… 15 Marine ………………………. 2 Royal French ………………. 3 (approximately) French Infantry ……………. 3 French Cavalry …………… .2 Grunt Infantry ……………… 1…… Total …….. 1,262 Regiments Total Regiments………………4,455 Regiments Aerospace: Wings ……………………….. 165 However there is conflicting Information as to SLDF at the end of the Amaris conflict ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force ‘Kerensky then led the surviving 113 divisions out beyond the Inner Sphere.” https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Star_League#Dissolution “Kerensky gathered 80 percent of the SLDF forces, and they jumped out of the Inner Sphere,” ….. 113 divisions equals 80% of the remaining land forces. Therefore 100% of the remaining land forces is 141.25 divisions However. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS At the end of the civil war only 113 Divisions of the SLDF remained. At the end of the civil war only 113 Divisions of the SLDF remained. Of these units over a hundred agreed to follow Kerensky: thirty-two BattleMech divisions, seventy-six infantry divisions, and sixty-three independent regiments. A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips. 1 Armored Division Remained 32 BattleMech Divisions Remained 76 Infantry Divisions Remained 63 Independent Regiments Remained Total 172 Regiments remained ….. And if this represents the total 80% that departed with Kerensky Then the 100% is now 215 Regiments Then there is the Navy – if 402 Warships is again 80% of the total fleet then 100% is 503 Ships Thus depending upon source material the SLDF Army is either 141 or 215 Regiments – and the navy is at 402 to 503 Ships. Force Depletion Report …………………..Prior to conflict……………..Post Conflict ………………..% Damage Navy……………..5,800 Warships…………….Max. 503 Warships…………91.3% destroyed Army…………….4,455 Regiments……………Max. 215 Regiments ………95.2% destroyed Then I would also like to stress the time between the End of the Amaris War and that of the Exodus – September 2779 to September 2784 – Between these two time periods was no effort placed in rebuilding and recruitment? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Federated_Suns As of 2765 they were well equipped with 110 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet had a volume of 51 vessels. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Draconis_Combine_Mustered_Soldiery by 2765 this had increased to 115 well-equipped 'Mech regiments, with thousands of conventional regiments, and a naval fleet of 42 WarShips with several hundred fighter wings https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Free_Worlds_League_Military As of 2765 they were well-equipped with 95 'Mech regiments, and the naval fleet strength was listed at 47 vessels https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Capellan_Confederation_Armed_Forces#2765 By 2765 they were well equipped with 92 'Mech regiments, and a naval fleet of 37 vessels. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth_Armed_Forces By 2765 this had increased to 90 'Mech regiments and 60 WarShips. Yes, by the end of the Civil War the SLDF is outnumbered when it comes to Land Forces House Army BattleMech Units as at 2765 RWR ………………….144 Regiments in the TH – considered to be half of their total forces AFFS………………….110 Regiments. DCMS………………….115 Regiments FWLM…………………95 Regiments CCAF………………….92 Regiments LCAF…………………. 90 Regiments Total House Numbers is at 502 Regiments (Compared to the SLDF’s 1,708 Regiments at the beginning of the war and the 215 Regiments at its end) However, when it comes to Warships …. House Warships as at 2765 RWR ………………….270 AFFS…………………..51 DCMS………………….42 FWLM…………………47 CCAF………………….37 LCAF………………….60 Total House Numbers is at 237 (Compared to the SLDF’s approximate 402 to 503 warships and also the RWR at 270) The entire IS Houses will have to engage the SLDF otherwise they will be severely outnumbered. House Warships as at 2765…………….. SLDF Warships (402)……….SLDF Warships (503) AFFS………………….51…………………(51 : 402)...1 : 7.9…………..……1 : 9.9 DCMS…………………42………………………………..1 : 9.6……..………..1 : 12.0 FWLM…………………47………………………………..1 : 8.6………………1 : 10.7 CCAF………………….37………………………………..1 : 10.9……………..1 : 13.6 LCAF………………….60 ……………………………….1 : 6.7……………….1 : 8.4 Total ………………… 237……………………………….1 : 1.7……………….1 : 2.1 On a one on one fight each individual House is at great disadvantage compared to the SLDF Navy. Quote: The numbers of ships suggest either a typo… The Poblem: What is Canon? And what is an error based upon miss-information? How difficult could it be to create a book / page on the official web site / page on sarna that amends any errors placed within previous texts so as to explain the truth of the situation? Information once provided can be analyzed and then debated. The problem here is the complete in-congruous of the information supplied …. Thus in order to maintain the 20 Armies of the SLDF as well as the damage inflicted upon the SLDF during the Kerensky-Amaris conflict and in addition to this the many of the entries regarding the Periphery conflict there is but one solution. That is the TO&E of the every House and Periphery state must be increased. May I suggest that every house is increased to 60-75% the comparable size of the SLDF and every Periphery State is at 30-55% that of the SLDF. However with regards to the RWR – they must be an anomaly within the IS – their wealth (GDP) must be above even that of many of the Great Houses for a long period of time. They also must have decided on a course of action 200 years prior to the Kerensky-Amaris conflict in which they established many hidden worlds (and the populations there on) that also provided a level of technology even greater than that of the SL and their Royal Units. Thus by the time of the conflict the RWR has a military that is either slightly smaller / equal to / slightly larger than that of the SLDF. In my opinion, this is the only way to explain the canon civil war. However, what this also brings with it is the massive infrastructure of the RWR – and was it completely destroyed during the SLDF invasion? Then there is the issue when the SLDF exited the area and the Lyrans invaded wouldn’t they have created many units to hunt down and find these facilities? And at the same time wouldn’t the DCMS be conducting the same reconnaissance within the former RWR? Thus during the First Succession war a massive war was conducted within this region of space – using atomics – so that neither side was able to gain the upper hand with former RWR hidden military industrial facilities – and at the same time it would go al long way to explain the following Research into the former RWR – of the 252 known RWR worlds 145 of these (58%) became abandoned / dead etc. shortly there-after. Thus these 145 worlds were so heavily fought over they are now wastelands ….. So all good …. History explained ….. Plus this would allow for a new unit / mercenary contract – Archeology within the former RWR worlds - in an effort to find hidden manufacturing facilities - Research and development sites etc Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/04/20 05:28 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: I said Amaris did NOT have to leave Terra to cause diversions to the advancing SLDF. Just having a few troopers make some noise would pull of units to hunt them down. Sorry but I disagree, from time immemorial “he who holds the capitol, holds the realm” - a point that was quickly pointed out to Pompeius Magnus when he fled from Rome when Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon – and a point that would have been drilled into Kerensky when he was studying history, politics and tactics …. Thus if troops are sent to cause diversions they must strike of the highest of priority targets (and as such will be protected in a manner befitting their importance); Otherwise they are but a mere nuisance ….. Though with a force of 5,800 Warships versus 270 there is very little the 270 can strike at that would cause a mass diversion and even then the SLDF could still send a small force of 500 – 1,000 Warships to hunt down this raider fleet with the remainder still proceeding onto Terra to take back the Capitol world. There is really nothing that Amaris can do given the limited size of available forces …. In reality there are only a limited number of options …… 1. Hold his ground on Terra and fight against the majority of the SLDF; (Quickest way of loosing) 2. Initiate a hit and run strategy and try attrition warfare - ie. a Vietnam strategy; (Where it will take time for the SLDF to run him to ground – and once he leaves Terra, Amaris will be considered a terrorist not the First Lord – it will also cause him massive logistical issues in finding resupply / maintenance etc for his fleet and ground forces) 3. Run back to the RWR and dig in; Thus a more stand up war but again if the majority of the SLDF is assigned to the war in the Rim Worlds it is again just a matter of time as to when his military will collapse.; 4. Probably what he should have done prior to the Coup (over a very long period of time) …. Established a political alliance with as many of the Great Houses as possible …. From there establish a secret “society” within high schools throughout the Great Houses Worlds with the aim of finding individuals who can infiltrate / would be accepted into the SLDF (officers and enlisted personnel) who’s numbers can increase over time via the tithe system – so that when the balloon goes up a large percentage of all the regular forces defects back to their Home Great House – thus leaving the Star League (TH and Cameron) Forces with their Royal Forces and as small amount as possible Regular forces who’s belief in the Star League cannot be wavered. Thus what you end up with is a true civil war – Kerensky Vs. The Periphery and all the Great Houses – a war that is Inner Sphere Wide …… Problem is with the destruction of the Star League and the TH, they may be peace for a time but sooner of later every one will begin fighting everyone else ….. But isn’t this what the game designers wanted in the first place? Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/04/20 05:29 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The longer you cause the enemy to fail in their victory, the more likely their own forces are to become angry and bitter. This in turn causes moral issues as well as fatigue. They stop working as a team and become the zombies you want. This only works if you have a sizeable force to keep up the pressure on a majority of the bases / supply ships / warships etc – in this case with only 270 Warships and 144 Regiments this will not work – the force is just too small to become an effective resistance force. Sooner of later this force will be run to ground and destroyed ….. Quote: A single unit that starts destroying cities on other worlds, causes more damage to people believing the SLDF can protect them. Backfire …. Amaris’ forces will be viewed as terrorists not liberators …… Quote: The personal hatred of Kerensky does not negate the fact the SL died before Kerensky left. Disagree ….. Why did Blake beg him to stay if everyone hated him? Quote: I don't know why you stop short of going to the base of all these issues. Might be just wanting to destroy certain people, while raising those that actually did the deed. Battlefield Ethics ….. plus it is better to keep the damage to the people and their industry to a minimum – as first, you may need them as allies in the future and second, humiliating a nation will lead to an unjust peace followed by an unjust war – ie. WW1 – humiliating Germany via the Treaty of Versailles followed with a Crash to the Economy produced a ultra nationalist movement within Germany – and over time WW2. And in all reality this is what could have happened ….. if the Star League was still around ….. Quote: Apples and oranges with Adam verse the SLDF. Adam can never be considered a true person regarding the succession …. As far as the law is concerned he is just a person they picked off the street (consider the profound distance his family is to that of the true line) to take the job … so yes the symbolism between the two is very apt. Allowing Adam to take the throne is a COUP by the TPTB over the Lyran People! Legally he can never ever be considered for the position – he can assume the position of protector of the realm and a member of the Triad for Peter’s son (the rightful Heir of the Lyran state) Hanse Steiner-Davion – though because he was mentally handicapped due to his birth the position would shift once more - you would go back through the family tree to Katrina Steiner’s sister Nondi Steiner and then to her eldest child Lisa Steiner (and if deceased at this point in time) to her eldest child Sabine Steiner. This is true line of succession! Adam can never be considered for the position of Archon! Quote: The SL did NOT have a rightful ruler to choose anything. You can go back infinitum until you find some-one who is alive and within a sub branch of the family. Thus you have your ruler! Quote: That shows you aren't concerned about the logic holes as much as ripping on canon. The line of succession concerns the law of the realm – and as such has nothing to do with ripping on cannon – consider the Family tree it demonstrates that the position of Archon is transferred to the next immediate family member from Seth Marsden to that of Melissa Steiner – Victor, Katherine, Peter – it is only with Peter do we see an absolute fabrication of the Archon succession… https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Steiner Quote: How many army units were hurt in all of the war? It doesn't really say. And yet I worked it out ….. Force Depletion Report - SLDF …………………..Prior to conflict……………..Post Conflict ………………..% Damage Navy……………..5,800 Warships…………….Max. 503 Warships…………91.3% destroyed Army…………….4,455 Regiments……………Max. 215 Regiments ………95.2% destroyed (and this was completed by the periphery war within the Taurian Concordat, The periphery war within the Rim Worlds Republic and the Invasion of the Terran Hegemony …..) Time to get real as to the complete fabrication of this, either Amaris’ and his staff are the greatest generals that was ever created, or the Kerensky and his staff are the most incompetent or both for this to be considered believable. Quote: And with the idea that one corp can deal with the entire TC shows a lack of understanding the need to secure and hold worlds taken. Taurian Concordat - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taurian_Concordat As a protectorate the total number of inhabited systems are 13 The 19th Army TO&E – 2765 https://www.sarna.net/wiki/19th_Army_(Star_League) BattleMech Regiments (unknown Type.) ………69 Heavy to Assault Regiments ……………………..2 Medium to Heavy Regiments …………………….4 Light Regiments ……………………………………2…….Total ……………77 Regiments Heavy to Assault Mechs + Vehicles Regiments .13 Medium to Heavy Mechs + Vehicle Regiments ...4 Light to Medium Mechs + Vehicle Regiments….3 ……..Total…………..20 Regiments Armored Regiment (unknown Type) ……………60 Wheeled Armor Regiment ………………………..1 …….Total …………..61 Regiments Artillery Company ………………………………….1 Jump Infantry Regiments ………………………...30 Mechanized Infantry Regiments …………………48 Non-Mechanized Infantry regiments …………….24 Royal French Demi Brigade ………………………3 (approx.) French Infantry Regiment ..………………………..1 Grunt Infantry Regiment …………………………...1 …… Total…………… 107 Regiments Aerospace Wings …………………………………..3 Warships ……………………………………………Unknown <however considering the SLDF has 5,800 warships and 20 Armies at 1/20 this could be 290 warships - at even 100 warships the TC will be in trouble!.> The Taurian Defense Force – 2765 https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taurian_Defense_Force BattleMech Regiments …………………………115 Conventional Regiments………………………..78 Warships ………………………………………….31 Please Note:- House / Periphery Army BattleMech Units as at 2765 RWR ………………….144 Regiments in the TH – considered to be half of their total forces TCM……………………115 Regiments DCMS………………….115 Regiments AFFS…………..……….110 Regiments. FWLM…………………95 Regiments CCAF………….……….92 Regiments LCAF…………………. 90 Regiments I find it interesting that Periphery Realms were able to create more regiments than that of the Great Houses ……and it is also of interest that the size of the Great Houses militaries have not changed very much from that of 2765 to 3050 (as per the 20 year Update!). Yes they did align with Amaris ….. However this was only to act as a diversion for the SLDF …… putting up a long term battle would be all but impossible ………………. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/04/20 01:31 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply You do realize that the statement of holding the capital, holds the realm, is the concept of why planets tend to stop resisting an enemy when they fall? So that is the only city an enemy like the clans can hold them without needing thousands of troops stationed there? Protected? Who is left to protect target the RWR forces would strike? And yet again the inaccurate fact of how many ships were available to the SLDF at this time taints the entire analysis. Nice to see other options being explored, but #3 is not possible. The RWR was destroyed before Kerensky went to Terra. There is little, if anything left there. He could try to seek refuge in the other realms or just hide in the devastated planets of the RWR, but on the verge of impossible to rebuild a force there. Units being involved in a war start getting irritated the longer they are on alert. It does not even have to be in the war zone, but having to stand at attention the entire time on duty when in a 'safe' area, wears on them. Officers have to discipline them, or lose the entire unit to those types of problems. With the exception of travel time, a lot of the units were part of the periphery invasion. So for a few years, they have been in an area that hit and runs as well as ambushes behind the lines was more likely then not. One mistake with Amaris being seen as a terrorist, rather then a liberator. He already was seen as a terrorist or dictator. And when fighting to keep the first lord title thru fear, you are not worried about public opinion. Until the SLDF gets to your area, the RWR has the gun to your head. The statement of personal hatred was not from those in the SL. It is the writer that seems to want to destroy the character, which seems like a personal vendetta. Blake begged him to stay, as Kerensky was the main person people knew and would back. Blake was probably worried that the houses would ignore his position and try to sack Terra as well. What does the response to you stop short of going to the base of all issues have to do with the question? You blame the gun manufacturer for someone using it in a crime. You seem to want to ignore the fact the person that used it is at fault. This has been the case not only in the SLDF fall thread, but all of them that you are trying to promote the individual that caused the entire mess, while trying to destroy those that were part of it, without causing it. So Adam was not of the Steiner blood line? He was just someone that had the last name? I don't disagree that there were others closer in line for the job, but how many of them were able to lead the LC against the WOB? And if I recall, Adam gave that title back when WOB was done. So maybe they could have said regent, but with the archon still living, but not able to get off world, the power was diluted. Try the numbers again, only using the Periphery war to determine how many forces were available to attack Amaris on Terra. The question is HOW many units were really available to Kerensky to attack Amaris on Terra? They would have lost units in the periphery war, as well as those in the TH when Amaris took the throne. They would also have to leave units to guard bases in the rest of the galaxy. So the full number they had before all the wars started can NOT be the number they had to hit Amaris with. To use the pre war numbers as the amount used to hit the TH to remove Amaris is just one example of a logic hole opened by not keeping track of the timeline and data.
Cray 07/04/20 06:31 PM 71.47.193.139	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: In my opinion, this is the only way to explain the canon civil war. This analysis leaves out a lot of details found in Jihad Hotspots: Terra, which has a chapter examining Terra's history in detail. It adds new details to the Star League Civil War. The simple view of things from the 31st Century is that this was a battle of good (Kerensky) vs evil (Amaris). As soon as Amaris announced his coup, Kerensky leapt into action and, of course, the question is why wasn't Amaris squashed immediately? The reality is that this was a civil war. The Terran Hegemony voted for Amaris. They had almost 20 years of incompetent rule by Richard Cameron. Amaris was virtually a Hegemony citizen, from the outlying Periphery realm where most Hegemony citizens settled. It was like Canada to the US, or Austria to Germany. While ComStar and Succession Wars-era sources make Amaris look like a sleazy, bumbling, mustache-twirling villain, he was perceived differently at the time. He was the intelligent, attractive option compared to Richard Cameron. Sure, there was a coup to move military elements out of the way, but he then gave the Hegemony a chance to vote. Since all of the Hegemony nobles and their house guards had lined up with Amaris, there wasn't even much vote rigging or intimidation. The SLDF, stuck in the depths of the Periphery, had just lost all of its factories, major depots, and logistics core. The Star League had concentrated most of its military industry in the Hegemony. Further, the SLDF was faced with most of the Hegemony's leadership and citizenry telling it, "Why have you abandoned us? Why aren't you listening to us?" This is why the other Houses sat on their hands during the Civil War - they were deeply intermarried and economically intertwined with the Hegemony, which was saying, "Don't listen to the SLDF and Kerensky! Back your new emperor!" Had the SLDF just suddenly jumped on the Hegemony, it would've looked like the greatest mutiny in history. By drawing out the response, Amaris had time to make himself look like a fool and villain. Quote: However, what this also brings with it is the massive infrastructure of the RWR – and was it completely destroyed during the SLDF invasion? The answer to that well detailed in the two Liberation of Terra books. Short version: no. The Republic had light defenders who only put up a little fight. The SLDF badly, badly needed all the industry it could salvage from the Republic because it had lost everything it was built around in the Hegemony. As noted in JHS:Terra, the Hegemony ruled the Star League carefully. It kept all the vital military factories in the Hegemony, it kept the major fleet bases there, and it kept the money there. When the Hegemony sided with Amaris, the SLDF was rendered into decomposing, unmaintained military units in the field. It badly needed the Rim Worlds intact, and the Rim Worlds was no replacement for the Hegemony. On the other hand, during that years of stand off early in the Civil War, the Hegemony could and did rebuild a new army to fight the SLDF. (It's not like the Rim Worlds troops stuck around for long.) Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Requiem 07/04/20 07:59 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: You do realize that the statement of holding the capital, holds the realm, is the concept of why planets tend to stop resisting an enemy when they fall? So that is the only city an enemy like the clans can hold them without needing thousands of troops stationed there? You do realize that there is a caveat to this statement – Government in Exile – however this is not applicable in regards to Amaris as he was never considered to be the legitimate ruler in the first place. Thus if Kerensky takes the world he effectively takes the Government as well … and as such deposing Amaris’ claim to being First Lord (He may call himself First Lord but in the minds of the people he is just a jumped up terrorist / murderer from the RWR). However, with regards to Clans they may take the Capitol World but as long as the legitimate Government still exists the capitol in effects moves with them …. So they may have the physical world but the Government and the ruler still continue to exist. It is based upon the people’s perception of events ….. Quote: And yet again the inaccurate fact of how many ships were available to the SLDF at this time taints the entire analysis. Then prove to me this is wrong …. Find a document that shows the true size of the SLDF fleet numbers! As this is the only document I have found to date, so as far as I am concerned this is Canon ….. Quote: #3 is not possible. The RWR was destroyed before Kerensky went to Terra Again this canon fact does not hold water – Modern day Battlefield Ethics comes to the fore once more …. If Kerensky sends the LA and DC 6 Army Groups (or a portion there of) against the RWL in an effort to destroy the entire realm in a fit of vengeance his position within history WILL immediately change from being a Great General to being a Genocidal Nutcase …. ie. he would be remembered in the same light as that of Jinjiro Kurita and the Kentares Massacre ….. as well as the controversial WW2 figure of Bomber Harris and Dresden As from …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Arguments_against_justification Wing Commander H. R. Allen said, "The final phase of Bomber Command's operations was far and away the worst. Traditional British chivalry and the use of minimum force in war was to become a mockery and the outrages perpetrated by the bombers will be remembered a thousand years hence". He (Kerensky) can hunt down all of the Amaris’ belligerent military units as well as all of Amaris’ Government Cronies he wants but when he shifts the orders to the destruction of the RWR he has crossed the line becoming a War Criminal due to petty vengeance …. Also the SLDF military is of a size that he can attack two or more targets at the same time - 6 Armies against the RWL that still leaves 14 Armies to strike Amaris’ 270 Warships and 144 Regiments on Terra. Quote: He could try to seek refuge in the other realms….etc. Political Asylum or hiding is again a non issue ….. Kerensky and the entire SLDF is on the Warpath …. As long as the SLDF remains unified they have the forces necessary to destroy every Great House / Periphery state …. Remember the film “Zero Dark Thirty” …… this will pale in comparison as to what Kerensky would be implemented to find Amaris …. Amaris’ is now politically toxic ….. there is no political / military reason to help him …. also if he does hide he will have massive logistical issues – as the most basic question is how is he going to feed everyone? Also how is he going to maintain the morale for all of his forces if all he does is hide? Also, every Military Commander within the SLDF and many Commanders within the Great Houses will also be hunting him in perpetuity – ‘he’ who brings Amaris to justice will be remembered for all time …. plus Kerensky will put a bounty on him …. thus every bounty hunter will also be hunting him ….. Thus the entire Canon version of events evaporates given Amaris’ limited available forces …… Re-write please…… Quote: Units being involved in a war start getting irritated the longer they are on alert. True …. However given the time taken to reach a planet from the Jump point or even from a pirate point …. as well as the Jump-detection systems every military unit / base would have as well as the small forces available to Amaris (given the size of the SLDF military) the idea that every SLDF base would be on alert 24 / 7 becomes a ridiculous idea. Also even in combat areas you are not always on alert ….. there are many good documentaries / films / series that demonstrate this point as to how soldiers act ….. Quote: He already was seen as a terrorist or dictator. And when fighting to keep the first lord title thru fear, you are not worried about public opinion. First if he was seen as a terrorist from the get go he never would have been allowed on the same planet as that of the current First Lord ….. so their ‘relationship’ ends ….. no coup …..etc. etc. Second …. Uncle Ho Chi Minh – both France and America had issues with him and yet he has a sustained view as being a great leader. <Side Note: At the end of WW2 Ho Chi Minh offered to become an official ally of America if they would assist in helping Vietnam become an independent country from France …. America said no. and history rolls on ….> Quote: Until the SLDF gets to your area, the RWR has the gun to your head. Terrorist, Bandit, Pirate …….. Quote: Blake begged him to stay, as Kerensky was the main person people knew and would back. Blake was probably worried that the houses would ignore his position and try to sack Terra as well. Yes, I agree Blake was worried …. Still shows that Kerensky is no way near the “Hero” his PR team portrays him to be …. Quote: you are trying to promote the individual that caused the entire mess, while trying to destroy those that were part of it, without causing it. Battlefield ethics and Battlefield law are legitimate military subjects …. They should be considered within the game ….. had a look lately as to some of the issues brought into the game lately from 3100 onwards? I am not impressed …… Quote: So Adam was not of the Steiner blood line? As for as the right of succession goes he is just someone they picked off the street to do the job ….. Quote: I don't disagree that there were others closer in line for the job Well over a couple of hundred people ….. Quote: how many of them were able to lead the LC against the WOB? Irrelevant point ….. he can become the ‘Protector of the Realm” ….. and many rulers have Generals who assist with military matters ….. Though In this case though both Lisa and her daughter Sabine were both within the Lyran Military ….. so again the point Adam can become Archon is illegal based upon Lyran Law. Quote: And if I recall, Adam gave that title back when WOB was done. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adam_Steiner Sorry no he didn’t - his term as Illegal Archon was from 3074 – 3121 – when it was transferred to Adam’s son Andrew until 3127, when it was transferred to Adam’s daughter Melissa Quote: The question is HOW many units were really available to Kerensky to attack Amaris on Terra? We are supposed to believe the remaining elements of the First army within the TH have been destroyed as well as 30 Regiments of the 19th Army have been destroyed by the TC – every other unit throughout the IS can be pulled in destroy Amaris …. Still far too many for Amaris to defend against. Quote: They would also have to leave units to guard bases in the rest of the galaxy. You would think so, however the above after action depletion numbers indicating 91.3% of all warships and 95.2% of all SLDF military units were destroyed in the conflict says otherwise – as well as the fact that all the bases that were closed and hidden (many had to be unearthed as their entry points were closed with demolition charges – as the base itself was underground – or hidden in space such as Camelot Command) also supports the fact that every unit was called in to fight the war …. So no logic holes at all … just fact based upon all available information provided …. I would also like to ask – at the end of the Kerensky – Amaris Conflict why didn’t his fleet take up their hidden bases once more – and in so doing return the sword of Damocles over the head of every Great House? Militarily and well as politically this is next step to keeping the peace and telling in no uncertain terms that he will not put up with any of House Lord’s shenanigans with regards to the issue of who the next First Lord would be , again another issue which defies any logic within the game? Re-write please as the story has too many plot holes …… Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/04/20 09:50 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Cray, Quote: This analysis leaves out a lot of details found in Jihad Hotspots: Terra, which has a chapter examining Terra's history in detail. It adds new details to the Star League Civil War. And as stated previously I do not have this book and I have not found any information within Sarna as to this new information ….. Thus given the limited information to hand ….. I can only go on the information to hand …. However, let me critique the new information as supplied Austria to Germany I understand however as Canada is part of the Commonwealth so this does not hold …. However this is where everything comes un-glued …. This is a Coup backed up by foreign forces (Austria to Germany during the Anschluss …. So yes to the above note) …. However, Kerensky does NOT answer to anyone other than the Legitimate First Lord and The Council of House Lords and in the absence of the First Lord Kerensky can assume the position of Regent once more or protector of the realm? (Charles de Gaulle WW2), thus eliminating any enthusiastic action by any of the House Lords. First, Logistics capabilities of a space faring (like the sailing ships of old must be tapped into the local economy as well as retaining vast military supplies in the event of any future protracted war – this is just logical logistics when it comes to the military (ie. having a just in time logistics system is beyond ludicrous). Second, having a vote to determine the ruler of the Terran Hegemony makes Amaris the Prime Minister / President it does in no way make him Emperor / First Lord as these are based upon the Rules of Succession. Stefan proclaimed himself FIRST LORD OF THE AMARIS EMPIRE – so the idea the vote has any sway in the matter becomes irrelevant. Third, Remember Amaris changed the designation from Star League to Amaris Empire – this is all the evidence I need to allow Kerensky to declare war on Amaris …. and his so called Amaris Empire. Two different nationalities are now at war! Fourth, Do not forget the Throne Room Massacre of the 80 people – under any legal definition he is now to be impeached as he is not above the law. How can he explain the complete absence of the Royal Family as well as the fighting with the Black Watch – to which they used a tactical nuclear device. I find it difficult for him to hide the fact that he just used a nuke on the personal body guard of the First Lord! Fifth, several members of the Regiment escaped forming the Ghosts of the Black Watch Guerrilla movement. As long as any SLDF unit was under attack Kerensky is well within his rights to counter attack to save them. Sixth, when a complete TO&E of the 20 Armies of the SLDF is completed (as above) the idea that Kerensky would just sit outside is complete lunacy of the highest order … Quote: Had the SLDF just suddenly jumped on the Hegemony, it would've looked like the greatest mutiny in history. Cray, you do realize this statement does not make any sense whatsoever? Kerensky is Star League Defense Force; Stefan Amaris is Amaris Empire. Can you please explain how you can mutiny against an Empire that you have never sworn an oath to? Lets put this in another way during WW2 if a country was invaded and captured by Germany did that countries’ complete military just switch sides to Germany or did those who object fight on, despite their limited logistics and how many moved to England to join the fight against Germany? Same here – The SLDF forms a government in exile under the supreme commander / Regent / Protector of the Realm Gen. A. Kerensky – they then declare war and invade – considering that even with battlefield damage inflicted on the 1st Army within the TH and the 19th Army (and others) within the TC the SLDF still maintains a fighting force of over 4,000 Regiments plus over 5,000 warships to Amaris’ 144 Regiments and 270 Warships. Did Churchill drag it out for as long as possible? Sorry to say but the idea that “By drawing out the response, Amaris had time to make himself look like a fool and villain.” Is not a valid reason I will accept – Timing has always been key to winning a battle – Consider the Battle of Anzio Major Gen. John P. Lucas he could have taken Rome the City was open and yet he just sat on the beach and allowed the Germans to create a massive defensive perimeter. After a month he was replaced by Maj. Gen. Lucian Truscott - then when you consider the costs of the Breakout and the costs to take Rome demonstrates that some people do not know what they are doing. If Kerensky sat outside for all this time allowing the RR to build a force comparable to the SLDF shows a level of ineptitude never seen before or since …. Keresnky has the means and the military / political right to strike at Terra as his primary target – thus killing the head of the shark. Quote: The SLDF badly, badly needed all the industry it could salvage from the Republic because it had lost everything it was built around in the Hegemony. Question: where were all of the 19 Armies Garrisoned thoughout the IS? Also how do you sevice / maintain your vehicles / Mechs / Fighters etc without a local repair facilities - thus requireing massive wharehouses, logistics personnel etc.? Then there are other facilities such as ..... Camelot Command + all others scattered throughout the IS. Defiance Industries of Hesperus II - largest in the IS - Jointly made with the SL Norse-Storm on Loxley – star League era “Mech Factory? Snord’s Irregulars - how many other hidden Star League bases did they find like the one under their museum? Then there is the issue of logistics maintained by all 4000 Regiments – if desired couldn’t you transfer a percentage of these to an attack group of 500 Regiments – thus having enough logistics for a mini war with Amaris’ 144 Regiments? Then there is the point of 4,000 Regiments Vs. 144 Regiments …. Call me skeptical but if Kerensky needed worlds for his logistical requirements I doubt 144 Amaris regiments would have posed an issue if he decided toliberate worlds from the Amaris Empire back into the Star League. Quote: When the Hegemony sided with Amaris, the SLDF was rendered into decomposing, unmaintained military units in the field. It badly needed the Rim Worlds intact, and the Rim Worlds was no replacement for the Hegemony. Sorry but can I laugh now? This statement only holds when there is going to be a protracted war over many years – considering the difference in scope between the two military forces Amaris would be lucky to survive one month of all out war. Thus the complete requirements of the SLDF are returned to them by the end of this one month of war …. The only way you can have a protracted war id if Amaris’ forces are slightly larger than that of the SLDF! Quote: On the other hand, during that years of standoff early in the Civil War, the Hegemony could and did rebuild a new army to fight the SLDF. Of which proves the point that Gen. Kerensky is perhaps the most incompetent of all military commanders to be ever given command of a military unit ….. perhaps Kerensky is the reincarnation of Custer? Didn’t he learn anything as to why the Allies bombed into oblivion all the military industrial complexes of the German and Japanese nations? Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/04/20 09:56 PM)
ghostrider 07/05/20 04:24 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Space travel is worse then keeping planetside for a war. You are stuck in a smaller area, with people that will get on your nerves after a while, that that is if you like them. If not, it becomes worse faster. This is not including runs faster then 1g. How does Blake wanting Kerensky to stay show Kerensky is no hero? A lot of people, including those that went with him, wanted him to stay. Actually, the SLDF had a lot of bases around the IS. The fact that they are still finding them, and have been for some time points to this. Which brings up another point. How many units were left to guard them before the exodus? Better re read the story of Camelot Command. There was a crew at the station and they died there AFTER Kerensky left. Now why do you think they just abandoned their hidden assets? Even during the wars, they would not do so. Using them as they did in peace time makes a lot of sense. For some, it would make even more sense. The retcon of the mobile repair base basically removed the need for their repair bases like Camelot. The houses were NOT trained to build and service the warships, and probably the dropships of the SLDF. That may well go for the units as well, since they were supposed to have tech the houses didn't. How did that go? The winner of a coup is the new lord? I didn't know about the voting, which turned the TH into a democracy setting instead of the feudal/dictator setting under Richard. The people of the TH had the right to change leaders. I have issues with it, but oh well. It doesn't stop from playing the game, especially looking for League caches. Funny thing. The name of the SL changed to Amaris Empire. Does that mean that the oath to protect the TH changes? Kerensky would have to deal with the new rulers, just like the old ones. The change of government format is what happened. The military forces of the SLDF would become the forces of the AE if they followed procedures. I don't agree with it, but it does follow the revolt scenario you love so much. And the name isn't the end all. Richard could well have been planning to call it Richards Playpen for all I know. It is still the SL with a new name. Repairing units requires parts. Parts that should not be produced locally, as they are illegal tech for the locals to have. Worse, where do you get new units to replace those lost? Again. The locals should not be able to build Highlanders with the advance tech the TH uses. Which goes to the question. If the SLDF refitted the RWR factories, shouldn't they have been set up for the more advanced tech? A find there should be in better shape then elsewhere. How long did Amaris have Richard's ear? Simply asking him to open up some assistance to begin with, to help his people resist the 'evil' in his realm. That soon becomes him being able to order things as Richard would probably be uninterested in what is going on with the manufacturing plants. This is true if Richard gave Amaris the access that was suggested. He could well have ordered even warships be made/transferred to people sympathetic to Amaris. Without the need to pay for things, he forces may well have had all the tech they could fit into the units when Kerensky hit. Only the royal guards had a lot of the tech in their units. The others were not so packed.
Requiem 07/05/20 10:29 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: the SLDF had a lot of bases around the IS……How many units were left to guard them before the exodus? Considering the size of the remaining forces following the end of the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War, best guess, skeleton crew ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command “It was abandoned by the Star League Defense Force on the eve of the Exodus in the late 28th century and only rediscovered centuries later.” Sorry but the Sarna wiki does not include any information as to crew that were marooned on the base …. do you remember where this information is located? Quote: The retcon of the mobile repair base basically removed the need for their repair bases like Camelot. Except they were also used for large scale repair, refitting, resupply (that a repair ship was unable to complete due to its complexity) and to assist spy missions into the RWR. Quote: The name of the SL changed to Amaris Empire. Does that mean that the oath to protect the TH changes? The Oath taken is usually very specific In nature, once Amaris declared the end of the Star League and the beginning of the Amaris Empire he has in effect declared war on the SLDF – as such Kerensky is within his remit to lay siege to and invade Terra, with the aim of removing Amaris and restoring the Star League. Quote: Kerensky would have to deal with the new rulers Not really, he just need to invade – capture or kill – and then for those captured, stand trial for treason and for those found guilty, executed. The change in government is from a legal to an illegal government – ie. from the point of view of the French Government in Exile in London to that of the Vichy and their German Allies. Quote: The military forces of the SLDF would become the forces of the AE if they followed procedures. Under no circumstances would Kerensky hand over the SLDF to the Amaris Empire – they are an illegal government …. war to the death. Quote: It is still the SL with a new name. No it is not the same! Are we to assume every country conquered by the Axis powers should be considered part of their conquers country and as such their nationality instantaneously changes from that of their original country to that of whichever axis power conquered them? They are a conquered people – and as such they should be liberated. Quote: Repairing units requires parts. Parts that should not be produced locally, The Fleet contains 5,800 ships – unknown many of Camelot Command shipyards – and the expected duration of war is of no more than 12-18 months – there should be supplies to keep the fleet going, if not use one ship to repair the more valuable - ie. form time Kerensky learns of the Coup, and the travel time each fleet takes from their respective patrol locations to that of their primary target – Terra, Amaris and his Government / Military Commanders – thereafter mop up operations with regards to any of the remaining forces …. And whilst this occurring a second fleet is dispatched to the RWR to remove any co-conspirators of Amaris and then install a new government. Quote: RWR access to SL Tech. Richard gave Amaris access to virtually every defense platform etc However the true issue is time – Kerensky must coordinate the closest fleets to a rendezvous point then dispatch assault force to Terra as quickly as possible, the point being he must not allow Amaris and his forces to become entrenched – he must eliminate the threat asap less he will use the Star League Facilities and Technology against Kerensky’s SLDF. Still does not change the fact that Kerensky can assemble a massive invasion fleet and army forces many times that of Amaris’ – it is just a matter of when Amaris falls not if he falls. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/05/20 12:48 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Not abandoned, but volunteers. I want to say it was in the Rhonda's Irregulars pack when they found the station. The oath is specific when you want to removed someone, but isn't when the now nationless decided to leave the IS? The only thing that is different besides the name is bringing to justice the people that conspired to kill the ruling family. The fact that the TH voted to retain Amaris, which would also extend to the nations name, says they were supportive of the change. I don't agree with this, but it does make sense of what happened. Given the new information, the SL were not that much of conquered people. Not saying it was noble of Amaris, but he did remove the Cameron line. Which for years, had been upsetting the civilians of the SL. The pause before the invasion could well have been to see if Amaris and his people were going to start sacking the TH, as well as killing the people. How many supplies were sent to the repair facilities outside the TH? How many were diverted before the Amaris strike? Again, you are using the numbers and such before the periphery war, to say that is what was available to attack Amaris. How many ships were damaged that didn't have parts in any facility? How many weapons and other supplies for the people were not there anymore? They were still involved in the periphery fight when Amaris killed Richard. STILL IN THE WAR. No matter what the SLDF was doing, they needed time to even start making the parts. Again. The higher tech of the SLDF was not made outside of the TH. To have done so, would violate the law saying you can not hand such tech outside of the TH. Time is correct on what Kerensky would be facing, but dispatching ships to assault the TH without having numbers and back up would be foolish. Knowing what awaited them, small ship contingents would be wiped out without doing much damage. Not sure how much of the information sent out was modified by Amaris, but it is very possible he was able to slow, counter or even stop some of it just before he killed Richard. So upgrading his forces probably started soon after he personally met with Richard. The concept of Katherine pushing her place as the next ruler concept comes to mind. Richard could order things, as he would be the next ruler, when he came of age. So if he ordered say a regiment of Amaris's units refitted or changed out with new tech, it would be obeyed. And as suggested before, this may well have not gotten the Kerensky in the periphery. Getting the forces to Terra might be another reason on why it took so long. Some units were out of contact it remote areas in the Periphery. I would assume more then a few were flanking from outside of the borders as well. Radio silence would be used.
Requiem 07/05/20 07:18 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The fact that the TH voted to retain Amaris, which would also extend to the nations name, says they were supportive of the change. I don't agree with this, but it does make sense of what happened. RWR military forces invaded the TH and the SL - their secret alliance was nullified not only by the fact that they insinuated twice as many forces into the TH as per the agreement. It was also nullified when Stefan himself murdered the legitimate ruler (and his entire family) – the issue of being voted into a position of power is not only irrelevant its results are also illegal, as at this stage as he has committed a coup to enable the vote to be conducted in the first place. Two Legal issues - Fruit of the poisoned tree doctrine - Stefan cannot benefit due to his lawbreaking! Second, the doctrine of undue influence – Stefan (who has just murdered the Cameron’s, the Cameron’s Security force (Black Watch with a nuclear device) and has placed his military into security positions throughout the TH is now in a position of power in which they can unduly influence (actual via physical coercion or presumed in using a nuclear device to demonstrate to the people his resolve – the people fear Stefan due to his current actions) the voters situation is now of the weaker party being influenced into an agreement in that if they were offered the choice would not have entered into. That is the vote itself is a sham as far as the SLDF and Aleksandr are concerned. Then there is the issue of Changing the States Name – a violation that directly opposes the SL – and as such must be defeated with all necessary force. From Aleksandr and the SLDF’s legal point of view (in addition to their oath to protect the SL) they are fully within their remit to protect the SL by invading the TH and removing Stefan and his RWR forces. Quote: Given the new information, the SL were not that much of conquered people. Completely disagree …. As per above, the level of undue influence upon the people through the murder of the entire Cameron line as well as utilizing a nuclear device that would have been communicated through Media Organizations (News etc.) produces a psychological response by the people as well as personal media devices as well as any RWR military parades through the streets – all of these would communicate to the people that they have been conquered and must act accordingly. Quote: How many supplies were sent to the repair facilities outside the TH? Depends upon manufacturing and logistics chain specifics etc. Consider searching for the Department of Defense Appropriations for 1959, supply etc. Page 321 – entitled Multiple layers of stock retention levels, within the document it discusses….. 1. Peacetime operating stocks; 2. Mobilization reserves; and 3. Long Reserves - based upon economic reserves – more cost effective to purchase in bulk as well as Contingency reserves (“which may be valuable in case of emergency or other possible need. So there is no hard and fast rule on this topic – however I would like to point out that if the majority of supplies are being transported from the TH and is being distributed to every SLDF military base throughout the IS their logistical chains are now not only vast but are also time consuming (ie. they have adopted a hub and spoke approach to a logistics chain) – thus the amount of supplies every base must maintain would be staggering (a couple of years worth minimum!) if this logistical chain strategy has been adopted by the SL for the SLDF as the duration periods between resupply runs (given the information provided) would be incredibly time consuming. I would like to add in the point that this supply chain approach is extremely counter-productive form a strategic military point of view. It would have been more efficient for the SLDF to adopt the same policy as the ComStar / WOB – the hidden worlds doctrine in that the SLDF maintains a number of hidden worlds throughout the Inner Sphere that have been established with the express purpose of re-supplying the SLDF with everything they require for their geographical location – thus cutting down the resupply time; ensuring the local SLDF is more self sufficient and mobile; reducing overall costs due to the massive supply fleet that would be required for a TH hub and spoke approach to logistics. And in all reality this is where the WoB hidden worlds could have originated from in the first place – if you believe in the Exodus, that is – ComStar could have discerned their locations over time and have made them operational once more …… thus making the hidden worlds a little more plausible when you explain their SLDF origin story. As for the quantity that was diverted to diverted to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War – let me be flippant in my answer, How long is a piece of string? Depends upon original stock reserves – estimated time to next stock update – quantity of stock to received – consumption levels off combat and within combat …. Etc. So the answer can never be answered …. Each GM will need to make a best guess based upon their own interpretation of the information provided. Quote: They were still involved in the periphery fight when Amaris killed Richard. STILL IN THE WAR. This comes down the size of the fleet assigned to the war. At this time period the TC has only 13 worlds, 115 Mech Regiments and 31 Warships – if the full 1/20th of the SLDF fleet was assigned to the war than this little rebellion of theirs would have lasted days / weeks at the most. Quote: No matter what the SLDF was doing, they needed time to even start making the parts. Again. The higher tech of the SLDF was not made outside of the TH. To have done so, would violate the law saying you can not hand such tech outside of the TH. Again the hidden world doctrine would be needed to be considered – however it is my opinion that SLDF Armies within Steiner / Kurita space could deal with the RWR. The remaining SLDF Units within Davion, Liao and Marik space could have been sent to deal with Amaris on Terra first then double back and mop up any RWR forces still remaining on any TH worlds. (The disparity in the quantity of SLDF forces begins to show given the numbers supplied.) Quote: Time is correct on what Kerensky would be facing, but dispatching ships to assault the TH without having numbers and back up would be foolish. RWR Naval Forces:- The 280 warships that they brought with them; The SL Space defense system they ‘acquired’ from the SLDF; and Additional ships manufactured / appropriated during their time within the TH. SLDF Naval Forces:- 9/20ths of the entire SLDF fleet – 2,610 warships (or there about) So in reality the RWR forces should not last very long unless they have access to wave motion guns …. Quote: it is very possible he was able to slow, counter or even stop some of it just before he killed Richard All orders need to go through the Chain of Command ….. so in reality highly doubtful. Quote: So upgrading his forces probably started soon after he personally met with Richard. No …. Upgrading would start when he murdered Richard and took command of the TH – however any remaining SLDF upon any world that maintains military industrial complexes will have to be dealt with first prior to obtaining any updated equipment from them. So in reality it comes down to how long it will take all the fleets to come together and attack in one massive force. My bet ….. not that very long 6-7 moths tops for those fleets stationed within each house to coordinate a joint strike force – objective: Terra …… So it comes down to how efficient are the RWR military techs in utilizing SLDF refit packages to their vehicles / Mechs / Fighters etc …. Quote: Richard could order things, as he would be the next ruler, when he came of age. So if he ordered say a regiment of Amaris's units refitted or changed out with new tech, it would be obeyed. No, Richard must be seen to be obeying the law. He cannot be seen to be ordering this as the Department of Administration as well as the Attorney General should have the ability to stop such a move ….. Richard is NOT all powerful, even he must obey the law. If he did it under the table - then the issue of reverse engineering comes to mind and as such the entire RWR forces within the TH and the RWR would have been updated prior to the Coup. Quote: Getting the forces to Terra might be another reason on why it took so long. Some units were out of contact it remote areas in the Periphery. I would assume more then a few were flanking from outside of the borders as well. Radio silence would be used. I am just utilizing those forces within the IS – 9 / 20 th of the entire SLDF – a hammer to crack an egg – still should not be a problem As for the 4 Periphery Armies – Strategic Reserve As for those in radio silence – this just means they cannot transmit – they can still receive – one flash override and that will quickly end. The Periphery conflict and the civil war should both be over within no more than 18 moths tops – the issue is what comes next with 80 main house branch of the family dead and who knows how many of the sub branch families – never discussed except in generalities. Thus the the Department of Administration as well as the Attorney General will have to undertake an immediate census to determine the extent of the damage / update births / deaths / Marriages registry ….. and will then have to take it from there as to the Line of Succession ….. You may have a short constitutional crisis but I really cannot see it lasting very long …… Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/05/20 07:23 PM)
ghostrider 07/06/20 02:40 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply How many countries have changed hand when the new regime kills the old one? The U.S could be accused of doing so. Most middle east countries have had rulership changes like this. Asian, Europian, African. This is not something new. As once said, legal is what those that win say it is. I don't support this idea, but it does solve some of the issues. Where in the SL charter does it say it is illegal for them to change the name? Companies do it all the time. The people didn't like getting rid of the Cameron line? You mean those that over taxed the people for things that the people didn't benefit from? Richard was the last straw for a lot of them. Why did the TH need to be the police force for the IS? The other houses were helping remove wealth from the common man, especially when they started the periphery war. The only ones that would have loved this is the weapons manufacturers, as they were making a killing in profits. Do I think this was a majority? Not really, but enough of them went along with it. Also read where it says Amaris DID NOT influence the vote. So you want a villain in Kerensky, then maybe his coup against the winning government is more realistic. I don't agree with this, but then I am not trying to destroy Kerensky to destroy the storyline. Making manufacturing plants around the IS with tech that is illegal for the house lords to have, is just asking for 'pirate' raids hitting them non stop. Hidden worlds only stay hidden when you control the coms networks, or don't consistently have supply caravans going to them. It is very possible they did have some stocks in hidden places, but were being watched, so did not risk exposing those facilities. It is also possible that with Amaris taking over the SL, the automated defense systems code words were changed, so they fired on 'renegade' SLDF forces. Do you understand that the TC and RWR were not the only periphery states involved in the war? It sure doesn't sound like it, as you continually leave out that fact. Without firing a shot, more then a few ships were out of commission as they were needed to patrol the areas conquered. Oh yeah. The master tactician doesn't understand that. Sheesh. Yeah. Being on the defensive, you would group every last unit into one group and hope you can take down the superior enemy. You would not scatter your units and do massive hit and runs, while forcing the enemy to split up, so your out numbered and out gunned units can start taking down the enemy as they foolishly send a single unit to look for you, and you pounce on it with more... Yeah. Smart tactics. Best to die all together and at once. You were so intent on Katherine being able to manipulate everything, yet no one else could possibly do that in the past? Amaris could very well have been given special clearance by Richard for doing this very thing. If Richard was the spoiled child, he would do things just to piss Kerensky off. A charismatic friend could well convince him that moving a few things, or denying them a few petty shipments would be a way to teach those in the SLDF that choose to ignore Richard a thing or two. Oh wait. That would remove Katherine from being the god of manipulation and demote her to following what others had done in the past. The chain of command. The first lord ordering the industries to produce parts and unit, and have them shipped to a location and leave it there could never happen? The automated process of ordering things could not be changed just a little so someone with access to Richard's personal password couldn't possibly order things and bury it in the mounds of paperwork the SL would have on any given day? Also, look at how things get ordered from manufacturers. Orders are placed. It can be placed by anyone with the authority to do so. Kerensky himself did not sign or even be part of every last parts order that was done. That is accounting. How they are distributed after they arrive on a military base DOES need a chain of command. And if you think otherwise, explain how secret research facilities as well as bases were able to get their supplies. Those need very few people to even know about it, otherwise they aren't secret. What? The ruler isn't the law as you have said in the past? They can't just order things like assassinations or punishment for those that are not breaking the law, but are resisting said leader? So wouldn't he be in the right to send in some military units to remove someone running a factory that produces parts for the SL when they say no? When did this change? I don't even think they could do this, but it was suggested that a ruler could remove everyone from a factory if they refused to obey that leader in a feudal system. Radio silence also includes not believing things that are sent. There have been more then a few times that someone sent a fake message and caused units to act when they weren't supposed to. This is part of why codes are used, and without those codes, they are not to believe things. Even with a code, you are in the periphery without many ways to confirm anything, why would you believe that Richard was killed, with no way to confirm this?
Requiem 07/06/20 10:19 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: How many countries have changed hand when the new regime kills the old one? First corporations law is not applicable, that said …. How many extra stars have been added to Old Glory recently? How many new electoral college votes and new senators etc applies to every country America has ‘acquired’ recently. I do believe Puerto Rico would have something to say on the matter considering it has been an unincorporated territory since 1898. This is the issue, Amaris did not just conquer the TH, he absorbed it into the ‘Amaris Empire’! Thus providing the SLDF with the right to defend the TH / SL against all aggressors, foreign or domestic …. Again this falls within the example of WW2 France Vichy Vs. Free France led by Charles de Gaulle. Quote: The people didn't like getting rid of the Cameron line? So any government official who’s popularity poll falls below a certain level is allowed to be executed with the full support of the people? Quote: Also read where it says Amaris DID NOT influence the vote. Undue influence …. So having a information news broadcast showing Stefan nuking the Black Watch followed by a Military Parade through the streets demonstrating his military might is not propaganda? This is the Godfather telling the TH people that he has an offer they cannot refuse ……. Quote: …. but then I am not trying to destroy Kerensky to destroy the storyline. Based upon mathematical and legal data supplied so far the canon storyline is already damaged ................. Quote: Making manufacturing plants around the IS with tech that is illegal for the house lords to have, is just asking for 'pirate' raids hitting them non stop. ….and yet Camelot Command (and all the others hidden throughout the IS), a large number of hidden SLDF bases as well as the Five Hidden Worlds were never discovered. Thus there is ample evidence to support the hypothesis that the Great Houses / Periphery states will be unable to discover the location of these ‘hidden re-supply worlds’. I would also like to say not every location can be watched all the time …. Plus the sheer size of the SLDF in comparison to House / Periphery Lords Militaries would ensure a minimum of adventurism on their part. Quote: It is also possible that with Amaris taking over the SL, the automated defense systems code words were changed, so they fired on 'renegade' SLDF forces. The Fried-or-Foe identification system would have been changed over on day 1 of the Coup. Quote: Do you understand that the TC and RWR were not the only periphery states involved in the war? Yes, still will not change the outcome as each SLDF Army assigned to each Periphery state has a naval force able to deal with them ….. You do realize that the distraction within the Alliance, Canopus and Taurian space should not be considered that great of a threat to any of the SLDF forces. They may have a close parity with that of the Ground Forces however the difference in Naval forces is still insurmountable… https://www.sarna.net/wiki/20th_Army_(Star_League) 17th Army – assigned to operations within the Magistracy of Canopus. 18th Army – assigned to operations within the Outworlds Alliance Territorial State. 19th Army – assigned operations within the Taurian Concordat Region. 20th Army – assigned to operation with the Rim Worlds Republic Territorial state – “he Twentieth Army remained near the Rim Worlds Republic and subcommands occasionally conducted reconnaissance-in-force operations into the Republic.” - <Note: the 20th were unable to find any evidence as to Stefan’s secret army – suggest multiple hidden worlds with a massive military industrial complexes are required to build this ….. also if the SLDF required these facilities to assault the TH (canon story) did they find them or were they forced to use only the visible complexes …. So where are they? And why didn’t the Lyrans attempt to find them / utilize them during the succession wars?> Amaris’ Secret Army …………….’Mech Regiments………Conventional Regiments……………..Warships RWR………………………………?................................................................? TH……………… 100…………………………44 (approx).………………….280 TC ………………110 (approx.).…………….70 (approx.)……………………16 OA…………………89………………………….17………………………………15 MoC……………… 103 (approx)……………..14 (approx)…………………….? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Taurian_Defense_Force The resulting New Vandenberg Uprising, started by the secession of 18 worlds within the Taurian Taurian Concordat ….…………………..total forces BattleMech Regiments …………………………115 Conventional Regiments………………………..78 Warships ………………………………………….31 19th SLDF Army ….…………………..total forces (Initial Forces engaged in hostilities) BattleMech Regiment ……………………77 BattleMech + Vehicle Regiment…………20 Armored Regiment ……………………….61 Artillery Company …………………………1 Infantry……………………………………..107 Aerospace Wings ………………………….3 Warships……………………………………290 (approx – representing 1/20th of the SLDF total navy of 5,800 vessels) https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magistracy_of_Canopus the Magistracy joined the other Periphery Powers in the New Vandenberg uprising … Magistracy of Canopus …………………..total forces BattleMech Regiments ………………………..108 Conventional Regiments………………………..22 Warships …………………………………………22 (Nt. - Most of which are Amaris’ secret army) The true size of the Magistracy forces at this time was 1/20th the size of the SLDF Garrison Army within Canopus space. 17th SLDF Army ….…………………..total forces (Initial Forces engaged in hostilities) BattleMech Regiment …………………… 96 BattleMech + Vehicle Regiment………… 11 Armored Regiment ………………………. 66 Artillery Company ………………………… 0 Infantry…………………………………….. 112 Aerospace Wings …………………………. 6 Warships……………………………………290 (approx – representing 1/20th of the SLDF total navy of 5,800 vessels) https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Outworlds_Alliance When the Amaris Civil War started in early 2766, Allyce Avellar chose to remain neutral ….. Amaris Secret Forces within the Outworlds Alliance …..total forces BattleMech Regiments ………………………………………. 89 Conventional Regiments……………………………………... 17 Warships ………………………………………………………. 15 2765 forces – 100 Mech Regiments 72 Conventional Regiments and a Naval Fleet of 16 Vessels (15 of which are corvette class) of their own + (most of which are Amaris’ secret army) – however only the 89 Mech Regiments and 17 Conventional Regiments + the 15 corvettes belong to Amaris’ secret army and will be engaged by the SLDF units. . 18th SLDF Army ….…………………..total forces (Initial Forces engaged in hostilities) BattleMech Regiment …………………… 96 BattleMech + Vehicle Regiment………… 17 Armored Regiment ………………………. 64 Artillery Company ………………………… 1 Infantry…………………………………….. 109 Aerospace Wings …………………………. 4 Warships……………………………………290 (approx – representing 1/20th of the SLDF total navy of 5,800 vessels) Quote: Without firing a shot, more then a few ships were out of commission as they were needed to patrol the areas conquered. Oh yeah. The master tactician doesn't understand that. Sheesh. Refer above:- As for the 4 Periphery Armies – Strategic Reserve Following a one week naval war in each Periphery - ground forces will be required to eliminate all ground forces – why? – Stefan’s forces will retreat into populated areas thus making orbital bombardment all but impossible ie. will have to dig the rats out. Additional army forces can be assigned to these areas from their Closest Great House Army – however running them to ground will not take that long unless they begin a Guerrilla warfare strategy. However the number of warships required within these periphery states can be reduced to a minimum number - however by the time Naval forces from the periphery arrive within the TH the war will be over – so the number assigned to Terra assault groups from those Amies assigned to all the Great Houses will still be at a maximum amount. Outcome will still be the same – duration to victory will still be the same. Quote: you would group every last unit into one group and hope you can take down the superior enemy. Stefan has 280 ships and the SLDF is going to hit him with over 2,000 ships – Stefan’s movements at this stage are limited … The primary target will be wherever Stefan is …… what happens to the RWR military once Stefan id dead? Will they continue the war and be hunted down or will they return to the RWR or will they surrender? Scattering your forces may seem to be a sane response, but in the end all it does is weaken the forces defending Stefan personally. Considering his psychopathic / Hedonistic attitude do you really believe he would weaken the forces that are assigned to guarding his personal security? I find the answer as highly doubtful. Quote: being able to manipulate everything …. Amaris could very well have been given special clearance by Richard for doing this very thing Manipulating the quartermaster corps …. Highly unlikely as Logistics reports directly to C2 any attempt to manipulate should be instantly detected and tracked back to originating orders. Plus any overt move like this by Stefan could bring to the for his long term plans. Kerensky could order a greater surveillance over the RWR – what would happen if his secret army was discovered early, before it was transported due to Stefan’s childish prank? Best thing is to appear as you have no agenda other than supporting Richard – thus there is no uncertainty as plans for the future. Quote: The automated process of ordering things could not be changed just a little so someone with access to Richard's personal password couldn't possibly order things and bury it in the mounds of paperwork the SL would have on any given day? Rulers do not get bogged down in the small stuff ….. find an procurement clerk if you want to go down this track …. Just watch out for the auditors! Quote: look at how things get ordered from manufacturers. Orders are placed. It can be placed by anyone with the authority to do so. Sorry but no they do not. There is a process as to procurement – usually going through a specific military department, requiring massive forms (in triplicate) as well as being vetted by an auditors department to ensure the form has been completed as per regs. Quote: explain how secret research facilities as well as bases were able to get their supplies. Hidden fleets of transport ships, easy ….. Quote: What? The ruler isn't the law as you have said in the past? Unless your ruler is a dictator even they will have rules they must follow …. Quote: feudal system. The Star League era is NOT a feudal system – consider reading information as to the SL court system. Quote: Radio silence also includes not believing things that are sent. Recognition codes would say otherwise this is why the communications unit has a code book …. Therefore flash over-rides still can be used to communicate important messages as long as all codes match up …. So yes you can believe a message that missive - Richard was assassinated – once it is decrypted and authenticated. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/06/20 12:47 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The U.S has NOT claimed lands around the world. The reference was in fact when it broke away from England for the revolutionary war. The popularity of Richard is NOT why he was executed. The citizens of the TH did not hire Amaris. A majority, over 50% voted to keep the usurper in. Funny how this is a flip from Katherine taking over the reigns of the LC. She killed her mother, which you said was ok as it was done through out history. So what is the difference here? Oh. I think I see. Killing family makes it ok? Or the favoritism of wanting that person to rule is? As said before. The story line being filled in has been an issue since they started it. Changing things as new ideas comes out, or trying to create stories to sell books has caused some issues with continuity. The rule changes have done so as well. At the base, the story line is fine. Adding in all the little conflicting details is what is causing things to go wrong. The numbers being one of the most prominent issues. Those in the house areas were NOT being used like the jump points around Defiance. And get your facts straight about the 5 hidden worlds. They were KNOWN. Comstar slowly got rid of their positions from them owning the HPG network. They were not hidden at the start. Might be the hidden army was what he used to 'reinforce' the TH with. The quartermaster follows orders handed down from those in command. Not sure why you think he would disobey orders sent electronically or even hand written, that is delivered to him by the office of the SL first lord. Sorry to say, but the presidents of a lot of countries do NOT speak with the quartermaster to get things done. Something the size of the SLDF would make that impossible, as orders would be coming in all day and night. Time is not the same on all worlds. Just because it's morning at SL HQ, does not mean those in the middle of the night on another world, will be doing the morning things. And what do you know. The orders came from Richard's account, and it is very probably when asked, Richard told them to fill it and don't bother him again after the first few times that checked it out. Sound like someone that feels they are the ultimate leader and can't be bothered with trivial things like supplies? You profile Amaris as being a psychopath yet can't figure out Richard? Missing the full story again. Do you think Amaris would not have gotten someone into the system to order things? To stonewall anyone trying to get further, by referring auditors to the first lord, so he could tell them to never bother him with such crap again? Oh yeah. A ruler of a realm isn't smart enough to even begin to think of this. Nice dodge there. The hidden assets need to order the items to continue running. Those orders go thru the quartermasters department. Most of the time, they do not know that the facilities exist or if they are secret or not. They just fill the orders and put them in the warehouses they were told to. Ships come and pick up the supplies, and then sent to hidden fleets of transports. Not sure why I had to explain this. And with this, why wouldn't Amaris find out where some of these assets were if he had such extensive access to the SL files? The SL is made up of individual nations that serve a leader, then goes to autonomous states, that are not part of the main organization, and have their own laws and regulations, yet agree to follow the first lord. Vassal states serving the one organization that leads them all. Sounds like feudalism to me. Even the TH is a vassal state in this set up. They are different entities before, during and after the SL was in effect. I can see where this might be argued that it is like the U.N. Nations agreeing to cooperate with each other. But feudalism seems to fit a little better.
Requiem 07/06/20 10:12 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The citizens of the TH did not hire Amaris. A majority, over 50% voted to keep the usurper in. And yet Stefan is not and has never been a member of the TH Government / Ruling Family – he is a member of the RWR government. Example country A invades country B – country A’s ruler Kills Country B’s Monarch (personally) and Nukes their Army – Country A’s ruler then invites the citizens of country B to vote for him at an upcoming election ……. Ie. this election is not only illegal it is Country A using undue influence upon country B as they have now killed their former monarchy, used WMDs on their forces and have occupied their country with their military forces …. Sorry but the concept that Stefan can be voted into anything by the TH citizens following the murder of the Cameron family, nuking the Black Watch and the occupation of every SLDF military facility within the TH to be completely and utterly ridiculous …… The only way this could be considered viable is if not only the TH people but the entire TH government (including the Cameron Family) supported and welcomed his forces ….ie. a peaceful transition of power (As was seen with Katherine in the far future – the people, the government and the military welcomed her – Peaceful transition of power)……and what was written here for Stefan is far from peaceful. It can only be described as a COUP! PS – The Lyran people did not know and were never provided with proof as to Katherine’s guilt in regards to her mother’s assassination – Victor was never able to source this information – so as far as the Lyran people know she is as clean and white as newly fallen snow! However, everyone would know (or suspect) what Stefan did to the Royal Family – especially when he declared himself Emperor (you cannot have two monarchs one has to go). Quote: Adding in all the little conflicting details is what is causing things to go wrong. The numbers being one of the most prominent issues. Thirty Five years ….. just one book with a notation as to a previous error and a further clarification of the events how hard is that to create once it has been identified there is an issue with the history. I would also like to point out this time line is not some small battle on the fringe of society – the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War is the foundation from which all history going forward is built upon (it is the bedrock upon which all else is built). Thus if there is an error there then ALL history going forward becomes fruit of the poisoned tree …. ie. it too is now questionable! Case in point RWR manufactured at a minimum 500 BattleMech Regiments and navy of well over 300 warships (5x the number of any House in ‘Mechs and Warships) and the Jump-ships / Drop-ships necessary to move these forces to their respective periphery / TH locations (Amaris’ Secret Army) – where are the military industrial capabilities / naval industrial capabilities that were able to manufacture them? During the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War (canon version) they were apparently captured by the SLDF so that they could be used by the SLDF to manufacture enough logistical supplies to sustain a long campaign within the TH against the entrenched RWR forces. Thus at this stage they must be intact …… Post collapse of the Star League the Lyran state walked in and absorbed the RWR with a minimum of damage. Thus at this stage they must be intact …… the Lyrans would have then fortified this entire area and turned on everything to increase their military’s size and lethality. Thus at this stage they must be intact …… and yet canon has them disappearing like they never existed ….. the flow of time and materials are once more modified in a manner that cannot be explained just like the TO&E of every great IS house within the 20 Year Update …. To that of the next House Book produced ….. An explanation as to what happened to the RWR military and Naval workshops would be appreciative at this point … please …. as these massive amounts of industries / space yards do not simply vanish overnight at the same time as that of the Exodus. Quote: And get your facts straight about the 5 hidden worlds. They were KNOWN. Comstar slowly got rid of their positions from them owning the HPG network. They were not hidden at the start. Yes I have heard that argument and disregarded it, the idea is ludicrous – to believe that Comstar could wave a magic wand and have all the maps maintained by every vessel and every sea-faring corporation and every University and every Great House change over a period of time is beyond ridiculous. It is on the same level of ridiculousness that all advanced Star League Information disappeared. Especially when there are hundreds of worlds that were never touched by the ravagers of the succession wars …. That means any information held on these worlds must be intact! One Hospital on one untouched world and they could have a complete SL medical library regarding everything as at that time …. Plus every world must have their own medical teaching facilities once they reach a certain population so how could this knowledge just disappear? The logic behind total knowledge collapse is not viable when thought through. As for the five hidden worlds can I used this as an EXAMPLE as to explain how they could have been inserted into the canon history – ie. rather than being worlds lost to time that Comstar rebuilt – as second explanation that they COULD HAVE BEEN originally SLDF re-supply worlds hidden from the eyes of the Great Houses and used to re-supply the massive war machine that the SLDF had become and yes they were hidden from te start. Quote: Might be the hidden army was what he used to 'reinforce' the TH with. CANNON FACT - The narrative is clear – Stefan provided every Periphery State with (approximately) 100 BattleMech Regiments; 14 – 70 Conventional Regiments and 15 – 16 Warships each so that they can keep the SLDF busy within the Periphery whilst he conquered the TH. Quote: The quartermaster follows orders handed down from those in command. Not sure why you think he would disobey orders sent electronically or even hand written, that is delivered to him by the office of the SL first lord. Highly unusual for the First Lord to issue such an order directly as this is bypassing his C2 Officers and their respective departments – any sane person would request authenticity verification from C2 before taking action. Thus C2 would ask of the First Lord what he is doing ….. It just does not work in such a way as that the First Lord can just issue orders to the quartermaster corps – they have a procedure all of their own that they must flow through ….. Quote: orders would be coming in all day and nigh Correct, and this is why there is a massive bureaucracy – that requires every request to be completed in the appropriate manner and on the appropriate form and to be accompanied by all the necessary forms signed by their respective CO etc. Quote: Missing the full story again. Do you think Amaris would not have gotten someone into the system to order things? The reverse is also true – don’t you think that the SLDF will get their spy into the RWR. Also there are people within the auditors’ office and counter insurgency department. Spy Vs. Spy ….. Plus a ruler of the realm does not have control over their security agencies – they can appoint the top person (who can set some type of agenda) but in reality when it comes to the day to day investigations they-are-out there are on their own. Quote: Nice dodge there. The hidden assets need to order the items to continue running. Military Units dispatch forms via the Quartermaster Corps; They then log them and send the request up via HPG to their respective Cain of Command Officer for approval ….; Somewhere along the line these request forms are either sent to the TH SLDF for processing or to their shadow quartermaster for processing on their hidden re-supply worlds; Supply Jump-ships are dispatched from either location arrive and unload as per normal …. Then disappear back into the void from which they came …. And as far as anyone else is concerned there is nothing untoward going on ….. This is not a dodge, it is the most efficient means of keeping a vast army re-supplied – so that its tactical flexibility is maintained. Quote: And with this, why wouldn't Amaris find out where some of these assets were if he had such extensive access to the SL files? If Stefan had access to every scrap of information then why didn’t he destroy Camelot Command – a base from which the SLDF Navy had been using to Spy on the RWR for the past 200+ years? Thus he did NOT have access to every file only those that were not destroyed during the initial Coup. Quote: The SL is made up of individual nations that serve a leader, then goes to autonomous states, that are not part of the main organization, and have their own laws and regulations, yet agree to follow the first lord. Vassal states serving the one organization that leads them all. Sounds like feudalism to me. Then what is State and Federal Government? Sorry but the closest approximation we have to the SL is that of the United Nations. First Lord = US Secretary General as well as the Ruler of the TH; High Council = UN Security Council SLDF = UN Peacekeeping Force And this is the main issues:- Is the removal of the Cameron Family and the annexation of the TH by Stefan and the RWR an internal issue to which the SLDF has no right to interfere with or is it required to act to maintain international peace and security? And in addition, can a third party remove the current First Lord, by force, and in so doing become the new SL First Lord? Suggest reading the following ….. https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/mandates-and-legal-basis-peacekeeping Sorry but I disagree it is completely the antithesis of feudalism – there is no Lord – Nobility – Vassals – Peasant relationship in existence that would be similar to that of medieval Europe ….. There are rulers and there are nobility however this is as far as it goes as most of the worlds within the IS maintain a democratic government for the majority of the people. Thus for most worlds the similarity is with that of the English Parliament – House of representatives – House of Lords – The Queen (or in this case the noble in charge of the world.) Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/07/20 03:58 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Saying it is fact, and then saying you disregarded the printed facts on it, says what? It says you are not going by facts, but your concept of what you want it to go like. This makes the rest of the ideas more faerie tale then anything else, as it is not based on facts. Worlds could have a lot of things. Then again, certain information was restricted to specific entities on worlds. There is no real reason to have a nuclear tech on a world that does not use nuclear anything. On vacation would be the about the only reason they would be there. No jobs. So with this, if the worlds around it that did use nuclear energy fell, it is highly unlikely that the world without it would have the tech stored somewhere. Printed copies? More and more print shops are closing down as the demand for printed things like books is dropping. Everything it easier to access online. Where does it say Amaris gave out that many units to the other periphery realms? The narrative is clear? Yet it was not printed as such. So only the comprehensive viable solution comes out and now being claimed as fact? Even going thru the whole system, no one is going to tell the First Lord, he can not order anything. Richard was not some responsible, trained leader. He said do this, and expected it to be done without even asking a single question back. Hence the declaration to reduce the house military units. Do your really think he would not help someone he thought was a friend? The law does not apply to him when giving away something. Or so he thought. So no order is questioned, unless it is by someone that uses the same codes and such, but isn't part of the government. Yet there is no way to know this is not from the First Lords office, signed by the first lord himself? Circular logic hole here. Do your really think he would destroy a warship repair facility near his home, when he could take it and use it against the IS? Might as well just chop off your hands as they might type something that you will regret later. Amaris would seize them all as he did Terra, and use them to force the houses to bow to him. First lord is nothing compared to the Emperor. Vain, he was. Stupid, he wasn't. First lord, princes, archons, coordinators... The TH had their own government that was not the SL. So I guess it was all a democracy, as no one had the power to say this is it, and make it stick without years of voting. The council was made of the heads of other nations that were part of, but not a piece of, the TH community. They were separate, just like vassals. And they fought with each other, which doesn't happen in a unified government.
Requiem 07/07/20 09:02 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Analysis is built upon comprehension – assessing the evidence and determining the soundness of the interpretation created from the evidence. It requires the ability of differentiating between expressions of opinion and informed hypotheses based upon / grounded in historical evidence. To understand ‘the narrative’ it requires an analysis of …. How change occurs in IS society; How human (Character) intentions matter to the wider group etc. within the story’s narrative; It is not only about what happened it is about how it unfolded; and You need to assess the information on which to draw a conclusion …. Given the limited amount of information there will always be a healthy degree of skepticism when it comes to the history of the IS. However as stated, I do not know how many times, my writings are my personal comprehension of the events and my skepticism when issues do not produce a logical extension of the narrative ….. Case in point Gen, A Kerensky has 20 Armies …. Those elements of the 1st that were within the TH have been all but destroyed by Stefan when he initiated his Coup ….. <It is only at this point that we are expected to believe that Stefan’s Hidden Army becomes known as belonging to the new “Amaris Empire”.> Three of the Four Army’s that are assigned to the Periphery are engaged with Periphery forces (only within two of these realms MoC and TC) and the third (OA) has decided to maintain a policy of neutrality. However all three Periphery realms were each supplied with a Shadow Army of approx. 100 BattleMech Regiments; numerous Conventional regiments; and 15-16 Warships each. The objective of which is to tie down as many SLDF regiments as possible to as to complete a coup within the TH and at the same time the SL and the SLDF. < This is where the story looses the plot – did no one ask where these additional forces came from? – did no one undertake battlefield salvage so as to identify the source of the component parts used in manufacturing these new weapon systems – what about a metallurgical report? – What about any POWs taken in combat, at this stage any person from the RWR should have been easy to identify. Thus the idea that the Secret Army can remain secret post first contact is beyond ludicrous.> This strategy worked when Stefan advised Richard that the most humanitarian response would be to end the conflict as soon as possible – and n so doing save lives. Thus Richard ordered Gen. A Kerensky to utilize additional forces to end this and that he was to take personal command within the Periphery (thus effectively removing him and the majority of his command staff from Terra) – an order to which he obeyed (though we do not know which additional SLDF units assigned to each House were assigned to ongoing Periphery conflict.) And we are supposed to believe that the SLDF’s intelligence Corps is still totally unaware of how the Periphery were able to increase the size and the professionalism of their forces . However, Gen. A Kerensky disputed Stefan’s assertion of being the First Lord ….. requesting clarification from the High Council Members he was provided with their answer, that they were not going to get involved ….. they were happy to just let events unfold ….. <This is where the story looses the plot.> Gen A Kerensky has one army sitting on the door step of the RWR – it could have been activated at this point to take RWR Capitol and any other important world and hold unto relieved. Remember close by there are at least 5 armies located within Steiner and Kurita space that can be dispatched with all due alacrity to strike at the RWR – to find and hold all of their military industrial complexes – whist at the same time removing any command and control elements within the RWR as well as the removal of their military forces. Then we are supposed to believe that Gen A. Kerensky does not invade the TH. He decides it is better to sit outside for a number of years. Allowing Stefan to build a new army comparable with that of the SLDF’s military. <If he did sit outside and do nothing then he is the most incompetent Gen. ever to have existed …. And that is saying something! Kerensky, as far as IS history is concerned, he is supposed to be one of the Greatest Generals of all time or is this a lie and it is all PR?> So I must ask - Really???!!!! The SLDF is a Marine Orientated Army …… One Armada of warships and transport vessels that can be sent from any of the 5 SLDF House Army’s can be dispatched to arrive at a strike target of Terra upon a certain day, that can be easily computed (Hanse was able to replicate in the 4th SW). Logistics should / would not be a problem and even if there was a logistical issue throughout the army as a whole – the ability to bring together logistics for a “small” strike force is still achievable. FACT – Stefan only has 144 Regiments and 270 ships: ; This force is supposed to keep out the SLDF – TO&E over 4,000 Regiments and 5,800 War-ships – Even at its worst case scenario (sending additional forces to the Periphery and the RWR) Gen A. Kerensky has the ability to send 7-8 Armies worth of Ships, Men / women, and material to Terra and the TH as a primary strike force – utilizing a Blitzkrieg tactic can anyone explain how Stefan could have repulsed a force this large within the opening months of the Coup? Sorry to say but as written (given the information I have to hand so far) this does not produce a believable and comprehensive story! So, please amend <or provide me with an update> so that I can understand the realities of the Kerensky-Amaris War. Quote: Worlds could have a lot of things. Alarion – Lyran Commonweath – only invaded by the RWR in 2575 and again in 2581 during Operation Mailed Fist and the next time they were attacked was during a the FedCom Civil War – and throughout history they have maintained port Sydney Naval Shipyard – that requires a highly educated workforce. In addition to this the planetary population must be of a size that it would require its own Universities / technical collages to maintain society – as we do currently – to believe their entire retained knowledge suddenly disappears is ludicrous. Then there is the issue of the SL Department of Education and Information and Prometheus Inc. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League#Department_of_Education_and_Information “responsible for publishing books and managing almost a thousand libraries across the Star League. Putting out material designed to promote peace and understanding, Prometheus Inc. also ran a massive information database, accessible by anyone within their libraries or through a personal computer, which was located on Terra.” Where did all this information disappear to? Quote: certain information was restricted to specific entities on worlds. Nuclear anything ….. not so even today nuclear medicine and nuclear theory, the of building nuclear reactors as an engineer can be studied at a University Level – it is the ability to create any banned materials that is the real issue! Quote: Where does it say Amaris gave out that many units to the other periphery realms? Please refer to the above web page links below each periphery state – they were placed there to provide where the evidence originated / and as a bibliography reference; They are fact! Quote: Even going thru the whole system, no one is going to tell the First Lord, he can not order anything. There are many unwritten rules with regards to any ruler – one of them is being ostentatious with their wealth – second many Lords (such as those in England following Cromwell) have fixed budget income set by parliament and the Exchequer. Unfortunately the daily purse strings upon the First Lord remain a mystery as it was never considered of any import. Thus there is no definitive information as to this topic. Quote: Do your really think he would not help someone he thought was a friend? The law does not apply to him when giving away something. Help yes ….However even a First Lord is constrained by the Law ……consider reading the history and import as to the Magna Carta and how this document produced many more similar documents / constitutions throughout history. Quote: So no order is questioned, unless it is by someone that uses the same codes and such, but isn't part of the government. Yet there is no way to know this is not from the First Lords office, signed by the first lord himself? Circular logic hole here. Suggest reviewing the older more affordable Jane’s Military Communications books – or how about a simple e-mail (TO: ; FROM: ; SUBJECT: : Missive information). Quote: Do your really think he would destroy a warship repair facility near his home, when he could take it and use it against the IS? Remember Camelot Command is, in all probability, the perfect location for the SLDF C3 for the entire SLDF invasion of the RWR – it should have been a primary target for Amaris’ forces within the RWR. And yet, there is no evidence to suggest that Camelot Command had come under attack by Amaris’ forces - if it did then why is there no evidence of battlefield damage when it came to describing the facility when it was rediscovered by Adam Steiner and next by Snord’s Irregulars? No evident battlefield damage – no battle – Amaris did not know of this secret facilities location - Stefan did not know of its location / import. Quote: The TH had their own government that was not the SL. Which can be found at https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terran_Hegemony#Politics Quote: The council was made of the heads of other nations that were part of, but not a piece of, the TH community. They were separate, just like vassals. And they fought with each other, which doesn't happen in a unified government. By this analogy everyone within the UN is a vassal to that of the Secretary General of the UN. Sorry but again the idea of feudalism within the IS is a complete and utter misnomer – the closest representation is that of the English Government (17th to mid 18th Century). As there is no evidence whatsoever as to Lord – Serf relationship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom - please read. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/07/20 08:40 PM)
ghostrider 07/07/20 12:09 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The thought that those extra forces were not home made, and kept off the books like the house lords did? And the idea that 20 ships can hold up the SLDF for this and Amaris can't do the same shows the flaws in the whole concept here? Another possibility is the forces came from houses opposed to the ones that were in combat with each periphery nation. Not as likely as some of the others, but a one approach fits all isn't going to answer things. The story loses a lot of logic with more then a few things, further back in history then the SL. The government of the Terran Alliance would NOT have allowed all those colonies to form, especially when they were found to not have been oked by the government. They would have been shut down. Hence, they would have limited just how many there were at any one time, and possibly caused each one of them to pay fees for military presence on their world, or to pay for new units. This would slow down even more colonies, as most did not have all that extra funding. The galactic internet could be done by just setting up a few viruses, or taking down the data base physically. I was going to say the software company probably had governmental controls in them to restrict that data on a simple input of a code, but that sounds a lot like a big company has done in our time, so will stay away from that. The printed books.. Hanse was part of a raid that found a cache of books printed in the League era. Most were burned, but those at the bottom of the piles were still intact. That might lead to part of how the information was removed. Strike against places that had such knowledge. Any known research facility would be a target in the succession wars. With this, some facilities would probably fake the destruction of said knowledge to avoid a visit from the shadows of the IS. Through out history, there are more then a few examples of how the ruler of a government has exceeded their authority (break the law) and get away with it. It is happening today. So saying it is illegal, and stopping it from happening are two far distanced things. And that isn't to say that profiteering and embezzlement wasn't rampant at that time. It could well be, it wasn't caught as hundreds, if not thousands were doing this, and kept the investigations from happening, to bribing those investigating. This would also include threats to those doing so as well. A single bribe could well set anyone on the road to luxury. Not saying everyone would accept the bribes, but it is a limiting factor in catching those making the money. And it wouldn't be a surprise if some companies just didn't make the items they were paid for in the amount that was ordered.
Requiem 07/07/20 08:38 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The thought that those extra forces were not home made, and kept off the books like the house lords did? And yet the House Lords were more overt and less covert, whereas the RWR produced (above their legal limit) well over 400 Regiments of BattleMechs and well over 300 Warships … then there is the issue of training the people and providing logistical support and transport ….. all of which was hidden form everyone. I would also like to point out that the SLDF unit assigned to the RWR conducted multiple Reconnaissance missions throughout the RWR thus opening the question as where these units were manufactured and trained as well as what happened to then during the Amaris-Kerensky War as well as post exodus. Quote: And the idea that 20 ships can hold up the SLDF for this and Amaris can't do the same shows the flaws in the whole concept here? Please re-read above:- Any Naval Battles will come off badly for any Periphery (due to their limited numbers); Periphery Strategy – Hit and Run (Hidden systems will be required for this strategy) + attacking undefended logistics Jump-ship / drop-ship fleets; SLDF Strategy – Hunt and destroy to an entrapment strategy; The question is how long can they keep this up? My bet not that long … However, the main problem is that the Periphery forces BattleMech Regiments are for the first time in greater numbers than the SLDF. Also as the majority of these forces are RWR expect they are on a similar professional level as that of the SLDF and they are willing to use human shields – retreat into a populated city – as well as using short range nuclear ordinances against the SLDF - thus it is going to take time to dig the RWR ground forces out of their Periphery bases. Thus there are no concept flaws. Quote: Another possibility is the forces came from houses opposed to the ones that were in combat with each periphery nation. Yes they can be considered a suspect initially, except for the fact none of the Great Houses were involved in any conflict at that time – and then there is the issue of POWs as well as battlefield salvage and component parts analysis. A more exotic issue to consider:- The issue of Strontium (Sr), with regards to their isotopes, within the bones (more precisely their teeth) of the deceased (acquired through eating) – if the intelligence operations groups have access to this information <via medication information> it is possible to determine their origins. <A technique used in archeology currently, but in the far future it could be used to who knows what …> Quote: The printed books… There are almost a thousand libraries out there that contain a massive information data base … has anyone gone through the list to determine where all one thousand libraries are …. As I would have assumed that there should be a llibrary upon every Great Houses Capitol World thus the issue comes back to what happened to these libraries? As for computer virus …. this is why there are firewalls …. and then there is the ability to air gap them from the net …. and then there is the ability to create copies ….. then there is the investigation into who would want to destroy this information … There is a myriad ways to destroy and retain information – the main question is why isn’t there a history entry into such an egregious destruction of public information would have reached the History pages. Quote: Throughout history, there are more then a few examples of how the ruler of a government has exceeded their authority (break the law) and get away with it. True …. And yet how many times have the press as well as internal controls stopped their actions? The issue is what is the true limits of Richard’s power … and to what extent is he willing to go for a ‘friend’? Unfortunately there is again no definitive information on this topic and as such the debate is impossible to resove. Richard is incredibly naive when it comes to Stefan this much is true, and yet Stefan did not tip his hand until the Throne Room Massacre – may I suggest that Stefan didn’t do anything untoward until he murdered Richard and once Stefan declared himself Emperor he used the office to get everything he wanted – and anyone who said no was quickly put up against the wall – thus shortly thereafter there were no obstacles for Stefan getting what he wanted (within the reason of people acting as a resistance movement within the bureaucracy - that would explain Camelot Command not being a target for RWR forces during the invasion of the RWR by the SLDF.) Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/07/20 08:42 PM)
ghostrider 07/08/20 02:29 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Honestly, the question of how the periphery states even got to build warships has come up. Jumpships would be a must, but warships would require tech that is questionable in the IS nations. Not sure why this concept even popped up or why it sounds odd. The idea that say the FS secretly gave the RWR forces to keep the LC and DC occupied with trying to remove them is what I was getting at. As the TC builds what was originally units designed and used by the LC, comes to mind. The DC may well have given units to the TC and MoC, but not in great numbers, or had a better agreement that they would not build the DC units. Firewalls only work when the codes are not known to someone trying to wipe out information. One major OS has been accused of containing such a code, and it seems the government leaned on them to put it in and keep it quiet. The Wannacry malware exploited one such weakness. It was known for years and never patched. The idea that something like the SL would have such a back door is almost guaranteed. It may well have been one of the reasons they had such good intel on those that dealt with them. The periphery states might have been more active in looking for such issues, and fixing them when found. It is possible that he didn't get access to intel like Camelot until after the massacre. But once he did, I don't think any of those facilities were 'secret' anymore. I would bet he sold such information to the highest bidder, then sold it again to the next highest, until everyone had it. Even using it to entice the house lords into resisting Kerensky. They did not have to openly attack the SLDF, but do exactly what they did. Refuse to allow the SLDF free passage thru their areas.
Requiem 07/08/20 06:55 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: how the periphery states even got to build warships has come up? Yes I agree the issue here is how Stefan was able to do it whilst keeping the entire process hidden form everyone – even the SLDF reconnaissance units assigned to keep tabs on the RWR were unable to identify the threat until after it occurred. What this indicates is that the RWR has had a parity of technology with the TH (and by extension the SLDF) for a very long period of time (to build 500+ Regiments and train them as well the transports necessary for these forces, and in addition to all the material and technology to build over 300+ Warships). The amount of time required too build these facilities, as well as the vehicles / ships should also be considered when answering this question. As far as I can see this can mean only one thing – “Hidden Industrial World(s)”- for the manufacture of every weapons system available, the training of their army / navy as well as the massive shipyards that produced the fleets necessary and ensuring the human assets necessary for the entire process to work. This plot, in my opinion, must be multi-generational in that a previous RWR leader started the process and it was only in Stefan's rule did the available forces become available for him to strike. The only solution, again in my opinion, is that a RWR spy was able to penetrate TH (and by extension the SLDF) information archives and in doing so provided the RWR with a parity of technology – and the spy was able to complete this action without the any counter measures being tripped. <Someone needs to create a bio about this person as they are now on the level of Snow Fire as to the interest they would generate from conspiracy theorists.> Then there is the second issue where are these “Hidden Industrial Worlds as well as their massive shipyards”, and down through the ages what happened to them .. are they still out there or were they destroyed and when were they destroyed and by who? Quote: The idea that say the FS secretly gave the RWR forces to keep the LC and DC occupied with trying to remove them is what I was getting at. This is an interesting conspiracy theory, I like it. Though, it would take at least a 100 years (again in my opinion) to manufacture everything in a perfect setting – though this does open questions as to why this amount of equipment could not have been manufactured by a House unit between 3050 to 3150 as well as the WoB prior to the Jihad or by extension by ComStar in their desire to create a new Star League under one Blakean Theocracy (Com Guard only at one tenth the size it should have been at?) That said if the Amaris-Kerensky Civil war started in 2766 – this would implicate the FS First Prince circa 2666. Zane Davion – First Prince 2600-2659 – no other information on him. Sarah Davion – First Princess 2659-2681 – no other information on her. May I make one suggestion though – Have look at Norman Aris CC Chancelor 2599 to 2611 (150 years to Amaris civil war) https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Normann_Aris as well as the Korvin Doctrine https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Korvin_Doctrine Having a religious cult who believes in “the outward expansion of humanity is a desirable social and philosophical objective” would desire to assist the RWR with that aim (Jump-ship / Drop-ship Technology; Warship ?) In addition to “A central authority must be responsible for the reconciliation of divergent human values.” Under a joint CC and RWR rule? … also Norman “was an executive at Earthwerks Limited who oversaw production of several BattleMech designs.”(Providing the RWR with BattleMech Technology). Could he have been enticed to provide the information to bring the RWR into the religious fold? His death on Nanking in 2611 also points at a possible assassination by those whose power was being threatened by him from within the CC. Could this have been a ruse by the RWR to get rid of him as they no longer needed him, they had all the information they needed to start their Hidden Army Program. Makes for an interesting possible back story <Alt Universe History ?> Quote: I would bet he sold such information to the highest bidder, then sold it again to the next highest, until everyone had it. Problem with this is that only the LA and DC would be interested – and yet neither of then made any effort to move on the fortress – thus the secret was kept. If Stefan wants to be the next First Lord then he will need to have the next version of the SLDF to assume their position of power – why would he give away secrets if he will need that information to remain secret in the future to rule? Edited by Requiem (07/08/20 06:56 AM)
ghostrider 07/08/20 12:14 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Push a little further with the houses giving the periphery units. The CC and FWL could have been doing so as well. This would make the SLDF intel gathering operations look like they were having issues, which may have lead to the whole fiasco of the periphery wars, and the events leading up to the assassination. Doubt it would run in canon, but bits and part of it sound like it might be just another piece of the puzzle. If the 3 houses were supplying units, that would explain the explosion of the number of machines the RWR had to get even anywhere near the numbers they had. Excuses like a pirate struck the dropship carrying say a battalion of mechs being shipped, when pressed on why the periphery state had brand new, or even used mechs from another realm. Still would like to know how they were able to build warships. The houses during the Clan invasion had issues with not having the facilities to build the engines comes to mind. Yes, the succession wars destroyed a large chunk of those, but how would the periphery states have gotten them in the first place. One conspiracy theory comes to mind here, and that is places like Camelot Command may well have been an RWR base, found by the SLDF and seized. Not very likely in canon, but would solve a small part of where the warships were built. Not thinking far enough into the sale of information here. Camelot Command was only one of a few facilities spread around the IS. So those near the CC/FS border may well be something both of those states would want, and I can see the FS worrying about Camelot as if the DC gets it, that means more warship production for the DC. The FWL is the same for the LC getting ahold of it. Now what about any mech production that is in the house territory? Tanks? Weapon production? And timing is the key. The information might well be something to entice the LC/DC to help remove the SLDF from their attack. Or flip it around some, and put up information to sell on the nations own facility locations the SL intel found, but other houses didn't know about. Plans to military industries lay out, so infiltrators could get in without being caught.
Requiem 07/08/20 10:48 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: the SLDF intel. gathering operations look like they were having issues Makes for a reasonable assumption based upon the information to hand. To build an Army of a couple of hundred regiments, their training, their transport as well as a couple hundred warships requires that the RWR has a vastly superior intelligence operation compared to that of the SLDF intelligence. If the Great House are also involved then I would agree with you the SLDF intelligence organization is inept. Quote: If the 3 houses were supplying units, that would explain the explosion of the number of machines the RWR had to get even anywhere near the numbers they had. Yes, I agree it could explain a small increase, hypothetically 10 regiments from each house, given the limitations each house fields – as if this was the case each Great house must have supplied the RWR with approx. 125 regiments each and the RWR would need to come up with the balance of 125 regiments – However, when they have an increase of 450 regiments this becomes very hard to justify rationally. Thus I must come back to the “Hidden Military Industrialized Worlds” scenario as the primary reason. I would also like to say if each House supplied 125 regiments (massive investment in money and people) wouldn’t they want to be within the game (make sure their investment is bearing fruit) and not sitting on the side lines? Quote: Still would like to know how they were able to build warships. Stolen technology is the only solution I can determine. If Camelot Command was originally a RWR facility – why didn’t t it crease questions within the SLDF intelligence organization and when the Coup was initiated why didn’t the RWR send a small attack force to retrieve it as given its location it is a perfect staging base from which to launch an invasion into the RWR from. Quote: Camelot Command was only one of a few facilities spread around the IS. So those near the CC/FS border may well be something both of those states would want, and I can see the FS worrying about Camelot as if the DC gets it, that means more warship production for the DC. The FWL is the same for the LC getting a-hold of it. When considering this I ask myself – where are the SLDF Bases within the Great Houses? Then I ask myself what about hidden bases? Let’s consider each of the Great Houses - Each has 3 Armies and each Army can have 3 to 4 Corps if one Corps to a world then each Great House should have at a minimum 9 to 12 worlds within their realms where the SLDF Garrison their forces and above these worlds would be a massive Naval Ship-Yard for their Naval Units (Both Transport and Warship). However there is also the need to consider the SLDF Intelligence Navy in that throughout the duration of the SL they have established multiple hidden Naval Bases – given the location Apollo is to Camelot Command my hypothesis is that within two / three jumps of every Capitol World Periphery / Great House the SLDF have established a SLDF “Camelot Command” Naval Facility – Hidden from their knowledge of each Great House, as to its exact location, but close enough that they can monitor each House Lord – and whenever a House Lord wavers from their duty to the SL it can be hinted at as a Sword of Damocles to keep them in line.. So in reality the SL was never this benevolent / utopian League of Nations who’s primary responsibility was to promote peace. On the contrary it was pretty much dictatorial and the SLDF was their club (it is just that many individuals joined with idealistic values and pretty much never figured out unless they became part of an operation with questionable aims.) So lets step back – each Great House could have 12 worlds garrisoned – and each Periphery state could have 9 worlds Garrisoned (However, the TC has only 13 worlds at the time of the Amaris Coup so would 9 of these worlds be under garrison or would some of them be just over the border in FS space?) – (and With the exception of the RWR who during Richard’s Reighn was asked to leave and yet only moved to world just beyond the RWR border ie. additional Lyran Worlds) So for each realm which worlds are used as a garrison by a SLDF Corps? Quote: Now what about any mech production that is in the house territory? Tanks? Weapon production? I still cannot see the Great Houses supplying the RWR in force unless they had skin in the game and they too fought against the SLDF – was there a shadow war going on behind the scenes between The Great Houses and Kerensky during the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War? <Never made it to the history books – but it did occur – and yes this is where Stefan is selling information to the Great Houses – this is why in the far future no one goes looking for all the other Great Houses’ Camelot Commands – Stefan sold the information to the Houses and they sent their fleets to eliminate the threat once and for all – this is also why Kerensky was unable to make the Houses come to Terra post coup for such a long period of time – he had lost the ability to hold the sword of Damocles over each of the Great Houses from then on – there were finally free of the SL tyranny. Or once captured by each House they were finally used to beef un each Houses Warship Numbers – thus putting Kerensky’s final naval numbers on par with each of the Houses Naval numbers.> Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/09/20 12:29 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The investment may well have been to have Kerensky submit to the houses that were supplying the forces. Simply stepping back away from them expanding their forces, to increasing the tech they got, or even increasing other things like lowering costs for transporting or buying/selling between the SL and their respective areas. Even giving them a few warships would have been worth it. Gains can be anything that someone finds worth it. Say paying 1billion for the units, and getting 4 billion back, or just the ability to build the higher tech might be such a deal. It might also be nothing more then setting up the SLDF to become absorbed into one of the houses military, though this would be a little harder to do then the lords might think. Greater control over the SLDF in their area is another possible goal. The question of building the warships applies to all the periphery realms. The cost of a single warship could very well buy an entire colonies supplies for a few decades. If they were the backwater worlds that seems to be implied, then this doesn't really make sense. Pirates should never have access to anything like it, and even a small fleet of jumpships with fighter carriers would be more efficient to have and use. The houses might send something out to the periphery, but that would be easy enough to determine WHO sent it. And the idea of building the manufacturing facilities to make the stuff makes it that much more of a financial burden on the periphery. It isn't like the SLDF or houses were likely to buy from them. So why the expensive process? The SL came from the TH offering to form a unified set up. That did not mean the TH would give away their only sources of intel or security they had against the others. The automated detection units failed, which lead to having to have people stationed in areas. I want to say this was fluff for the Bugeyes. But there is one minor issue with them having it around the capitals of the houses. The LC capital was moved during the succession wars. Tharkad was not the original, but Arcturus was. That doesn't mean there wasn't one in that area, but it does dampen this a little. The garrison of a single world by each army sounds a bit unrealistic. More likely one HQ with the units spread out to cover multiple worlds. Allow them to scout them constantly, while using the guise of protecting the houses, as well as training the troops. It would also give them a chance to respond to any issues if they were not so condensed. Considering the first succession wars made it sound like fleets of warships clashed over multiple worlds, the idea that 60 was max for each house sounds completely off. And it would not surprise me if some of those ship yards were what the houses used to keep warships in the fight until the last ones were destroyed in the LC. How much time did the houses have to build the massive 51 warships? Was that a few years, or was that for the entire history of the SL? Even one facility over the entire length of the SL would produce more then that. I would think maybe the SL contracted those ship yards outside of the TH to build jumpships and drop ships, while all warships were produced in the TH, and used to trade with the houses for the ships that were made for the SL. Not solid, but just a thought. Those that survived until the 3025 era seem to be too few to have even begun to supply all the ships used since the creation and end of the SL. So unless the houses bought them from the SL, something is wrong with the numbers in this as well. Considering some of the fluff says a few ship yards were repaired to begin producing warships again, suggest they were not destroyed, but only damaged, or shut down to a lack of parts. This seems to run counter to the statement they were all nuked in the first 2 wars. So another example of their own information not really syncing up.
Requiem 07/09/20 02:13 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Possible investment returns that a great House may request of another could be either financial or political in nature. Quote: If they were the backwater worlds that seems to be implied, then this doesn't really make sense. Agree it really doesn’t make any sense unless the backwater realm worlds are (over time) become comparable (socially and technologically) with that of any advanced worlds throughout the IS. Could one of the SL aims have been to increase the technological development of periphery worlds and some-how it worked too well? Or. Could it be that the RWR was able to either convince or they purchased major technological corporations and were able (via economic rather than military power) to have subsidiaries established within the RWR. Time progressed and at the same time the RWR technology progressed until they were o par with the TH. What this would suggest is that over a short period of time the RWR was the recipient of a “gold-rush” involving a high value commodity – and it was subsequently invested in technology that over time produced a massive technological boom for the RWR. Though I would still like to say that the technological espionage angle would make for a better back story …. Everything from the acquisition of technology to the establishment of their military industrial complexes must have been established in secret and this is not easy to accomplish … somewhere along the line there must be secret cabal of very wealthy individuals who have access to a massive amount of technology and at the same time want to be rid of the SL …. and it was these same people who had Richard’s father assassinated …. I would like to say that History is missing something here … yest the fall guy was Stefan and yet there must have been a Cabal behind him …. Could it even exist in the far future? There is Black Dragon Society for example as well as others that exist in the IS so why not one that have never been discussed before and yet who’s members contain the elite of the elite. Quote: The LC capital was moved during the succession wars. Tharkad was not the original, but Arcturus was. That doesn't mean there wasn't one in that area, but it does dampen this a little. I would suggest that with the movement of the Capitol city so to with the hidden “Camelot Command Base” – a second hidden base was established close by. Quote: The garrison of a single world by each army sounds a bit unrealistic. More likely one HQ with the units spread out to cover multiple worlds. Problem with this is the number of worlds quickly increases with 4 Corps – 60-70 worlds is not beyond reach – politically no House lord would allow a military forces to be spread over such a wide number of worlds – from both a political and a military point of view you would rather want them to be on a small number of worlds – from an economic point of view you would want them on a large number of worlds to assist with the local economy …. So how do you want the SLDF spread over the House’s realm small or large number of worlds? Quote: Considering the first succession wars made it sound like fleets of warships clashed over multiple worlds, the idea that 60 was max for each house sounds completely off. Agree …. Somewhere along the line all of the Great Houses must have initiated a similar secret army protocol and were just biding their time – allowing the RWR and the TH to destroy each other before they swooped in and took everything for themselves. Quote: How much time did the houses have to build the massive 51 warships? A secondary consideration is that of the SL rules concerning the how many Regiments / Conventional Forces / Warships each house is allowed under the SL treaty – if they are only allowed 51 then the time to manufacture becomes hard to discern. Comparisons should also be made as to the time taken to manufacture warships post 3050 – it would be difficult to comprehend how the era of 3050 would be more efficient than that of SL era smaller ships months to larger capital ships no more than a year would be my first guess. Quote: So unless the houses bought them from the SL, something is wrong with the numbers in this as well. They could also have been RWR ships – considering that they were able to move 500+ regiments within a short period of time and in secret. Quote: Considering some of the fluff says a few ship yards were repaired to begin producing warships again, suggest they were not destroyed, but only damaged, or shut down to a lack of parts. This seems to run counter to the statement they were all nuked in the first 2 wars. So another example of their own information not really syncing up. Agree this is another contradiction that is hard to explain. There must be more out there that is hidden or lost to time …. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem 07/09/20 06:55 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Please note the following production times ….given the following information (as above) LCAF 2750 – 52 BattleMech Regiments – 40 WarShips 2765 – 90 BattleMech Regiments – 60 Warships (2.53 ‘Mech Regiments & 1.33 warships per year) 2784 – 104 BattleMech Regiments – 217 Warships (0.74 ‘Mech Regiments & 8.26 warships per year) DCMS 2750 – 55 BattleMech Regiments – 30 Warships 2765 – 115 BattleMech Regiments – 42 Warships (4 ‘Mech Regiments & 0.8 warships per year) 2786 – 161 Battlemech Regiments - ? (2.19 ‘Mech Regiments per year) AFFS 2750 – 53 BattleMech Regiments – 25 Warships 2765 – 110 BattleMech Regiments – 51 Warships (3.8 ‘Mech Regiments & 1.73 warships per year) CCAF 2750 – 42 BattleMech Regiments – 30 Warships 2765 – 92 BattleMech Regiments – 37 Warships (3.33 ‘Mech Regiments & 0.46 warships per year) 2786 – 192 BattleMech Regiments - ? (4.76 ‘Mech Regiments per year) FWLM 2750 – 60 BattleMech Regiments – 30 Warships 2765 – 95 BattleMech Regiments – 47 Warships (2.33 ‘Mech Regiments & 1.13 warships per year) RWR fleet as at 2765 – 270 + 15 + 16 ships = 301 ships (ships assigned to MoC as well as RWR are unknown) = given the max production rate of 8.26 per year (LCAF) this would require 36.44 years Assumptions MoC receives 15 Warships and RWR has ½ that of the fleet that was sent to the TH Total = 270 + 15 + 16 + 15 + 135 = 441 ships @ 8.26 per year = 53.39 years However with RWR BattleMech Regiments @ approximately 500 Regiments @ 4.76 per year (CCAF) = 105.04 years. Then there is the time taken to manufacture any Military Industrial Facilities prior to any Mech or warship coming off the production line must also be considered …. This would indicate that the RWR’s industrial capabilities must be many times greater than that of any Great House from at least 50 to 100 years prior to the Amaris-Kerensky Coup. The indication of these approximate time frames must be taken into consideration when considering the time for any secret cabal that led to the future overthrow Coup. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/09/20 11:59 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Several 'possible' things for the tech acquisition could be used. First being the a few companies looking for raw resources could have negotiated a deal with the periphery providing high level tech for better prices on things like ore. The idea of cheaper labor also comes to mind. The workers might well have been funneling information on what they were doing to entities in the periphery states. Even samples of components could have happened. The idea of 'oops. I put in the resistors the wrong way. Well time to throw it out' and the item disappears from the trash heap, along with a few others that were 'accidentally' screwed up in another way. Then again, what about a company coming in with high tech to extract the ores, such as a miner mech? There is a good basis for sneaking in battle mechs with higher tech, and retro fitting them with mining equipment. Multiple bases isn't the issue with moving the LC capital. The issue is how would the SL have known that they would do so? Unless there is some assets in the area of Tharkad before the SL fell, having one there to watch the LC wouldn't make sense. How I want then is irrelevant. I would think they were stationed on worlds important to the SL, as well as worlds that would make a good cover for them being there. Having them sit on worlds that tend to get 'pirates' would be necessary to keep the cover of protecting the nations. I can see the houses trying to keep them off some worlds, as they want to carry out secret projects, which might be stealing the tech, to nothing more then having a pleasure palace to get dirt on officials. Also, the SL would have to use local bases for at least refueling the warships. It would definitely draw questions on how the warships could operate in areas and not have a ship yard for at least maintenance. It might be SL owned, but in the open for all to see. Secret facilities would not cut it.
ghostrider 07/09/20 02:01 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Advanced Robotic Transport System Interesting heading in the wiki. It is part of the orbital SDS systems. So automated and probably remote controlled units that the rule say can not exist is in contradiction to this entire set up. A little more looking for remote control, and the wiki says the teleoperated missiles are remote controlled. So again, the rule saying it isn't possible shows false. Yes, this is a bit off the war information, but yet another issue of the developers not following their own rules. This is where a lot of the logic holes open up.
Requiem 07/09/20 08:17 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Several 'possible' things for the tech acquisition could be used. I agree there are several possible means in obtaining technology – however for the big ticket items like Naval Yards and Warships this will require access to a state who has a dedicated Naval Warship program that is comparable with that of the SLDF’s Navy. Quote: Multiple bases isn't the issue with moving the LC capital. The issue is how would the SL have known that they would do so? Answer – they didn’t. However, once the Lyrans announced the change there was a period of time where the new Capitol was not covered as other capitols were until the SLDF could find and build a new “Camelot Command Base” – that is for a period of time they had warships acting like submarines today – sent out - long voyage there and back - but when they get to their destination they sit out in the dark sea without anyone realizing they are there collecting massive amounts of signal traffic data that will be analyzed by security experts on their return. Ie. pretty much an ad hoc stop gap measure until they had their “Camelot Command” up and running. Quote: SL bases on Great Houses Worlds “ I would think they were stationed on worlds important to the SL.” Agree – strategically placed bases are of importance. Criteria: close to … Regional provinces capitol world; Major House’s Periphery military bases; Major transport routes used by jump-ships; Close to major House Ship-Yards; Close to borders – keeping the peace between states; All should be considered as viable reasons for SLDF base placement “Having them sit on worlds that tend to get 'pirates' would be necessary to keep the cover of protecting the nations.” Internal issue – let the Great Houses to run around fighting pirates – will give them something to do – plus it would be a way to spy on their military to view how they react and what weapons are used against the pirates. “I can see the houses trying to keep them off some worlds, as they want to carry out secret projects.” Can I come back to the “Hidden world doctrine” again? Great Houses MUST have hidden worlds for R&D as well as hidden military industrial complex production. “To nothing more then having a pleasure palace to get dirt on officials.” Honey traps? Yes this sometimes works – however there are a couple of states out there now who would ask for copies of the pictures so that they can give them to their bosses – they would see it as a badge of honor in that they were chosen to be black mailed – So the whole thing falls flat. Thus know the culture and know what is “taboo” before you get your spies to set your trap. As I could see the CC ministers going down this track and asking for a copy of any pictures … “the SL would have to use local bases for at least refueling the warships.” Unless the SLDF has their own hidden re-supply production worlds together with their own resupply ships / (supply-class fast combat ships.) “It would definitely draw questions on how the warships could operate in areas and not have a ship yard for at least maintenance.” That is until Yard Ships become common knowledge – Newgrange / Faslane Class. “It might be SL owned, but in the open for all to see. Secret facilities would not cut it.” And in secret – secret facilities can be built into the SLDF fortress – similar to that which Snird’s Irregulars has under their museum? Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/10/20 12:05 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The SL was famous for having secret bases on known worlds. They did not need full worlds to hide facilities on, though it would help some to do so. All those caches found in the succession wars would show this. The best known one would be the Helm base, which was on a world that was populated. More then a few others have been noted, but don't remember when or where at this time. Well, besides Galtor. There is an issue with letting the houses deal with pirate strikes. The SL had to keep up appearances that they were the ones protecting all the people, otherwise, the call for increasing house units would have been overwhelming. The main thought here is if the SL can't keep them safe, then they need their own forces in greater numbers in order to do so. It would also have a side effect of the houses being able to cut back on funding as well as resources being sent to the SL. The pleasure palaces was not mean to be a main way of getting the tech, but just another option to be used. The CC would probably not want to be shown in the SL council as having people in situations that could be considered black mail material, as it would mean they, as a whole, could not be trusted. After the SL fell, then it might be more desirable, as the government could become more of a dictatorship without the SL breathing down their necks. And with the SL looking for violations to a lot of things, this is just one more thing to want to avoid, lest they look even harder. The idea of using public refueling facilities comes from the fact that if you have a dozen warships in the area, and they do not refuel or even worse, get damaged and repaired in a short time in that area, the locals will know there is something nearby. Hard to keep secret facilities when you do this. Granted the exact location would not be given, but the general knowledge of where the ships don't use public facilities would give you and idea of where to look. This ties in with damage. You do not want to send ships back to Terra, or your secret base to get major repairs done. Time is a big issue here. Yes, you can rely on secret bases a little, but you have to cover it up, with keeping something in the public's eye.
Requiem 07/10/20 06:22 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The SL was famous for having …. bases on known worlds. How do you keep secret many of these ‘hidden’ bases as well as their caches if the majority of bases within any Great House / Periphery Realm is relatively known by the citizens of any given world. It is not as if the Amaris – Kerensky War was over multi generations and everyone forgot about its location – and then shortly thereafter the Exodus occurred. So, wouldn’t you expect the Rulers, and by extension, the people of these worlds to excavate any known bases, just as the tomb raiders of old as a get rich quick scheme, or as means of obtaining advanced weaponry, or even gaining a vast underground complex for the ruler of the world? For any secret base to exist it must have been located in a deserted area upon a world where no one could see the re-entry as well as the exit of any Drop-ships (thus we are looking at a vast areas of empty land) and in addition this area of land is where there are no flyovers of aircraft or satellites used to survey the world beneath it. Thus there must be questions as to the “security” of any hidden base on any world. Quote: There is an issue with letting the houses deal with pirate strikes. I still believe that pirates are an internal issue and by extension the SLDF will not have anything to do with them. Quote: The idea of using public refueling facilities comes from the fact that if you have a dozen warships in the area, and they do not refuel or even worse, get damaged and repaired in a short time in that area, the locals will know there is something nearby. Question: How many fleets today contain supply / support class vessel? + How many fleets have pre-arranged positions and dates to rendezvous with re-supply vessels? Military vessels utilizing civilian merchantmen to re-supply is a recipe for disaster - no true military navy would stand for it. In order to keep bases secret then everything about them must be secret – from their location onwards …. there can be no civilians on the world in question – if there are then security will be compromised at one time or another, it is inevitable. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/10/20 01:58 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply There is the key words to the bases. Known bases. There are a few things that would have stopped such actions to begin with. The automated defenses comes to mind. Then the succession wars may well have made more then a few more off limits from radiation and just pure destruction. Bases can be kept quiet, but that involved not having a huge flow of traffic to and from them. Another method of keeping them secret is to have them attached to a known base, but have only one way to get to it, say a single tunnel a few miles(kilometers) long. Only a few would know about it, so the risks of others finding out about it are low. Large security zones in some areas would allow you to start building without too many watching, though satillites tends to counter this. This also brings up the issue of the jump flares giving away the fact a jumpship has entered the system. You can't make a secret base in a system that can detect this. The locals will sooner or later try to find out who and why they are here. A simple stationing a ship in the general area of the flares would give you the chance to follow them in. Grounding one on an asteroid or such would make it that much harder to find. Which is why I believe the Jump Flare was not used in the earlier versions of the game. There is no real way you can 'surprise' a world with an invading force. Yes a single day flight pirate point can do so, but those are rare and very dangerous. The resupply/refuel does not have to be civilian in nature. Just having a base that does so in local space would be enough. Not having any what so ever is where the questions come from. If you don't have tankers in your fleet, or never see one around it, causes the alarms to go off. Now a sneaky thing to do, is have a 'tanker' that is actually a weapons platform. So the people think it is a tanker supplying the fleet, while anyone that thinks it is an easy target, will find out just how wrong they were as they die. I am not saying the civilians would be working in a secret base, but you would need something in the public's eye to avoid them asking how you can continue to operate without normal support. A single ship from a fleet could be used to resupply a secret base, but having the whole fleet do so would eventually show it is there.
Requiem 07/10/20 05:55 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply A base within a base is an interesting idea. Construction will require a cover a story, then there is the issue of the quantity of soil taken out of the ground – if you are constructing a subterranean facility – if a spy is making note as to the quantity taken out of the facility simple volume calculations could indicate the existence of a larger area of excavation, This principle could also be expanded to the ‘Mech Level – building in the middle / surrounded by a revetment wall and at a height which provides the ‘Mech with cover, especially if they are a Marauder and can crouch down, hidden by the wall, then pop up and fire. The problem with one way in is that there is only one way out! Best to have adjunct exits that can be used similar to that of a Vietcong tunnel system. No one realizing there’s an exist hatch nearby until it is too late. In removing the issue of detecting Jump-flares requires a hidden system once more – vacant from all civilian habitation. Quote: Not having any what so ever is where the questions come from. If they have the appearance of being permanently attached to the fleet or have been dispatched form a local garrison fleet there will be no questions. Quote: Now a sneaky thing to do, is have a 'tanker' that is actually a weapons platform. This is just a navy raider class vessel (in the game it is often referred to as a pirate class vessel) – a good film on the topic is – Under ten flags (1960) – Loosely based on actual events during WW2 – and an actual German Captain Bernhard Rogge (interesting fact he was in the German Navy during WW2 and after WW2 was working with the West German Navy and NATO due to his conduct as an officer whilst commanding a the navy raider.) All bases need re-supply and the only means this is conducted is either from local sources or from a supply depo. / Jump-Ship / Dropship(s). The problem is that it is hard to hide a dropship’s entry and exit from anyone in surrounding thousands of square Kilometers if it is on flat terrain. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/11/20 12:23 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Not necessarily is there only one way out. The SL seemed to have mastered hiding bases, as they exist all around the IS and periphery. The base on Clinton, that Snord was sitting on is a good example of that. The intel departments seem to have missed a lot of things the SL did, just like no one knew of Comstars mechs until the marriage of Hanse and Melissa. Even then, it wasn't spread around. So a lot of this would depend on the level of counter intelligence of the SL. I want to say a story or two did exactly what was suggested. They had a known facility that had some sort of earthquake that opened up the way into another section. Simple projects that get cancelled as they are not needed, but in reality are the secret bases, can be a way to go with making them and covering them. Might be labeled as dangerous waste or something like that. Even a simple training outpost could be used as a cover. As stated before, jump flares did not exist in the game for a while. It was put in when they realized they could not detect incoming ships without something. Think about that response. Having the refuel ship dispatched from the local garrison. That would probably mean they got it from a local source. I know more then a few bases in the world today use local, public resources for things. There are some that don't. So it can be argued either way. As much as using a dropship sounds the most effective, I want to say secret facilities on inhabited worlds would use shuttles, as they are so much easier to hide. And there is a bigger problem with detection of dropships then the flare. They do show up on radar, though ECM is supposed to counter that. Yes, Visual is something you can't really do much about. I guess this would mean atmospheric thrusters would have to be used, as anything with fusion exhaust couldn't be covered. It would still show up on a thermal scope, but not nearly as easy as a fusion drive. And I wasn't talking of having the tanker as a separate unit, but just a decoy so the locals didn't know they were not a real fueler ship. Then again, it could well be a cargo ship. Maybe holding the spec ops or spies that are catching a ride. It would be a nice cover to move them around. Any base, or even a single ship, needs supplies. So using them to send in teams would work pretty well. Even if they weren't fake.
Requiem 07/11/20 07:49 PM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Has this now become a comedy of errors? The SLDF mastered the intelligence of hidden bases from the Great Houses; However, The Periphery states mastered the intelligence of hidden bases to an extent that even the SLDF was unable to penetrate. Quote: …… jump flares did not exist in the game for a while. It was put in when they realized they could not detect incoming ships without something. So it is OK to fix these issues and yet when it comes to some of the larger issues it is impossible to fix them? Quote: That would probably mean they got it from a local source. Question: for diesel ships where does the refueling tanker take on its cargo? As, where can security be maintained? Quote: As much as using a dropship sounds the most effective, I want to say secret facilities on inhabited worlds would use shuttles How big is the secret facility and how much can a shuttle’s cargo area take? Multiple shuttle runs or one drop-ship + what is the difference in size between a shuttle runway and that of a drop-ship pad and how much effort goes into camouflaging either when it comes to the idea of having a hidden base? What gets noticed and what is just accepted as normal? Quote: Tankers as a cover for intelligence Yes, tankers can be used as surveillance craft …. They can also be used for many other purposes … Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/12/20 03:27 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The military does NOT make the diesel for ships. They buy it from someone that does. So the fusion fuel would probably be made and bought from a local source. Drop Shuttle is a VTOL that hooks up to a jumpship without needing another ship. 200 ton ship. But even then, most shuttles seem to be able to VTOL on worlds, though drive flares and infravision is hard to cover. Could well be several shuttles fly over an area every day, but people don't see them land anywhere, but know there is a base in the area. That does NOT mean the one being kept a secret. Wasn't talking as a surveillance craft, but as a shuttle to move agents onto and off of worlds. A false tank to hide a group in would suffice. Hell, they don't really have to take on fuel, if they are pumping it at a military or intel base. Just act like it. The nobles have been able to hide things from their own house as well. And this also include the SL. To extend their units beyond League limit, they had to make them somewhere that the SL could not keep an accounting of. Even with the Davion trickery, they still need to come from somewhere other then the public factories. And it isn't like I disagree with the developers really need to get the issue fixed in the game. A rewrite can, or should, only be done when the rules are in stone and they follow them. Then you can remove a lot of the logic issues like we have discussed over multiple threads.
Requiem 07/14/20 08:55 AM 1.158.192.25	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply How many people realized the problem with regards to the Territorial States (Periphery) Rebellion that started with the New Vandenberg Uprising? Reference: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War Quote: “Stefan's first act, after rename the Star League Amaris Empire, was to order Aleksandr Kerensky to maintain operations (against the Taurian Concordat), which Kerensky refused.” Reference: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stefan_Amaris Quote: “ … May of 2767 when Amaris re-established communications and tried to gain the general's support …. However, General Kerensky …. he declared a cease-fire with all other Periphery realms and declared Stefan Amaris an usurper, starting the 13-year Amaris Civil War.” Problem with the above information ….. Reference: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magistracy_Armed_Forces Quote: “however when they joined in with Stefan Amaris' conspiracy their forces were greatly expanded: by 2765 they were well equipped with 20 Divisions (consisting of 22 conventional and 108 'Mech regiments) and a naval fleet of 22 vessels. While MAF units on paper, most of these are essentially part of Amaris' "Secret Army" ….” In addition to those within the Taurian Concordat and the Outworlds Alliance they too were part of Amaris’ “Secret Army” Question: How can you declare a cease fire with ‘Periphery Forces’ when the majority of their forces are NOT periphery forces they are in fact part of Amaris’ “Secret Army”? And these are in no way small forces - Taurian Territorial State …………………………………….Taurian Forces……. Amaris”Shadow” Forces……….……..Total Forces BattleMech Regiments ………………15…………………………100……………………………………115 Conventional Regiments…………..…34…….……………………44 (approx.).……………………..78 Warships ……………………………………15………………………..…16……………….………...…...…….31 Magistracy of Canopus Territorial State …………………………………….Canopus Forces……. Amaris”Shadow” Forces……….……..Total Forces BattleMech Regiments …………….….5…………………………103………………………………….……108 Conventional Regiments…………..….8…….……………………14 (approx.).………………….……..22 Warships ……………………………..….....7………………………..…Unknown – assume 15…..…….22 Outworlds Alliance Territorial State …………………………………….Alliance Forces………. Amaris”Shadow” Forces……….……..Total Forces BattleMech Regiments ……………….11……………………….…89………………………………….…100 Conventional Regiments…………..….55…….……………………17 .………………….………………..72 Warships ………………………………….....1…..…………………….…15……....…………………………….16 There is something wrong here as…. So, as Kerensky, if you do not fight them they have the ability to strike your rear – or they could be transported to the TH (now the Amaris Empire) and reinforce the forces within. Sorry but I cannot see Amaris’ Secret Army laying down their arms once the SLDF decides to leave them alone at the start of the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War! So in reality Kerensky cannot declare a cease fire with the periphery – he will have to now fight on multiple fronts … Within the Rim Worlds, Magistracy of Canopus, Taurian Concordat and the Outworlds Alliance in order to destroy all of Amaris forces within these realms …… and at the same time; And with whatever remains he will have to then attack the TH ….. War on 5 fronts to start with ….. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/14/20 12:51 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply So Stefan was angling to make Kerensky look like he was disobeying orders, to give him some leverage against him. Whic makes sense. The idea that other forces were increased suggests the SL did not have good intel on the periphery states, or at least the RWR. But it does have a large issue of where the machines came from. The warships being the biggest issue. It is hard to hide a shipyard making them, if the periphery was as lacking of tech and such as the game makes it sound like. And the ships seemed to be updated to the time, as there is nothing saying they were out of date. A conspiracy theory just popped into my mind on how the developers might start another war with this. A secret production world that was deeper in the periphery that only a few in the RWR command knew about, but was missed during the wars. It would have to be out the 'left' side of the IS maps, as the clans would probably have found it on their way in. With it running since the RWR was destroyed, there could well be a huge warship stockpile just waiting to be used. It is possible some of those that fled the RWR, including the leaders family members, could have gone there, increasing the population up to a point that it could sustain itself and grow dramatically. A few worlds could be colonized and expand that population base. Back to the thread... Declaring a cease fire, and actually having the periphery honor it isn't the same thing. It basically says Kerensky was pulling out. It was not a peace treaty or anything more lasting. It also leaves the door open for them to return when ever they feel like it. In 2750 the MAF had still had nine regiments (organized into a single Division) and a fleet of nine WarShips, however when they joined in with Stefan Amaris' conspiracy their forces were greatly expanded: by 2765 they were well equipped with 20 Divisions (consisting of 22 conventional and 108 'Mech regiments) and a naval fleet of 22 vessels. While MAF units on paper, most of these are essentially part of Amaris' "Secret Army" and those which weren't destroyed in the New Vandenberg Uprising did not survive long after the Succession Wars cut off any Inner Sphere support.[14] This suggests part of why the SLDF was looking for more troops. They were not sure of what they were facing. But more to the point, the forces were available BEFORE the periphery war started. Other then raiding SL bases, there seems to be no way Amaris could have accumulated these forces. The plan or increase of units had to be going on before Amaris was born. But this may also be part of why Kerensky paused outside of the TH. He wanted to make sure the periphery was not going to strike him from behind, and to see if the cease fire was going to hold. The world by world advance would support this fear. Making sure he could remove Amaris without opening up to a rear attack would make sense.
Requiem 07/14/20 07:23 PM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: So Stefan was angling to make Kerensky look like he was disobeying orders, to give him some leverage against him. Which makes sense. The issue is that of a lawful order – Stefan cannot provide Kerensky with a lawful order as he is not the lawful ruler – he usurped his position and as such is an illegal ruler – thus war to settle the issue. Quote: The idea that other forces were increased suggests the SL did not have good intel on the periphery states, or at least the RWR. Pitiful writing and not understanding what is going on in the problem – the right hand did not know what the left was writing at the time appears to be issue. When combined they contradict each other as to what is occurring within the Territorial realms (Periphery States) as at that time. The entire Amaris-Kerensky Civil War is full of pot holes – just as the Clan war contains holes and when investigated both are not a very comprehensive / accurate story as to what is occurring …. Given all the mathematical data … and mathematics figures does not lie, they just are! So what does this suggest - the Amaris’ forces must have been given a command override and departed their initial locations for that of the TH and the SLDF were unable to stop them from getting to the TH first? And given the limited forces of each of the Territorial States they too quickly gave up the fight. Thus yes the SLDF intel was way off the mark with regards to what was actually going on ….. Quote: as the clans would probably have found it on their way in. If the Clans had discovered a world of RWR people they would have committed genocide on the world in question and destroyed everything for being tainted. Especially if the Jaguars had found it first …. Quote: Declaring a cease fire, and actually having the periphery honor it isn't the same thing. It basically says Kerensky was pulling out. It was not a peace treaty or anything more lasting. It also leaves the door open for them to return when ever they feel like it. And leave who knows how many Amaris forces at his back? Quote: the forces were available BEFORE the periphery war started. Yes this is why Stefan sent the forces, to get the SLDF out of the TH so that he could take the throne and the TH ….. The problem is what next? Keep them fighting in the Periphery …. Recall them to the TH / RWR or use them to strike at any SLDF Bases in their rear to keep Kerensky from amassing a large enough of a force to invade the TH and Terra. Quote: Making sure he could remove Amaris without opening up to a rear attack would make sense. Problem is that these forces are there and they belong to Stefan Amaris; Can you depart with these forces in your rear – ready to strike? If you just do nothing lunacy! Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/15/20 03:42 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Funny thing about usurping things. You once said that if you get away with it, then it is yours. Amaris did get away with it, and with the even rigged elections, the TH/SL had a new leader. Kerensky would be seen as a deserter in this case. I don't like or agree with it, but it can be considered legal. The forces that went to the TH were known, as Amaris 'offered' them to Richard. Those going to the TC, MoC, AO, and other periphery states were the issue. Those were not know. And I agree that the retcon of how many forces were there and used does not agree with the story put up. It makes it sound like the only units sent into the Periphery were those in the TH, and nothing was sent from the 5 house areas. That is why I said the clans couldn't have found a secret world. The clans would definitely destroy the world. And now the flip flop. Kerensky wouldn't know how many forces would be at his back going to the TH. The same fear would be bypassing worlds to hit Terra. But as said already, this may be why Kerensky paused outside of the TH. To make sure the periphery wasn't heading into his backside. I think you missed the point of the forces were sent out before the periphery war started. That meant Amaris had a lot more units then what was there fighting the SL as well as what was sent to the TH. So how many more regiments and warships did they build to do this and still have the forces to garrison the TH? And this was all missed entirely.
Requiem 07/15/20 08:36 AM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Known Warships applicable to Territorial State (Periphery) Navies Roe Weapon Systems – within the Rim Worlds manufactures - Bonaventure Corvette – Pinto Corvette. Rim Worlds Territorial State Navy circa 2765 Bonaventure Corvette – 32 Pinto Corvette – 52 Carson Destroyer – 18 Mako Covette – Sold to RWTS by DC – Number Unknown Monsoon Battleship – 7 Tracker Surveillance – 1 Known Warships within the Amaris Secret Army and to be a part of the 270 sent to the TH Dart Cruiser – used to secure the shipyards over Mars Stefan Amaris Battleship – 1 Vigilant Corvette – 30 Other Territorial State (Periphery) Warships used within the Amaris Civil War Athena (Warship Class) - MoC Concordat Frigate – TC 6 & MoC 1 Vincent Corvette – TC – 1 Wagon Wheel Frigate – TC (plus other periphery navies) The TH had a new leader (by force not choice), as for the SL this is a disputed subject, hence the war. Quote: The forces that went to the TH were known, as Amaris 'offered' them to Richard. Those going to the TC, MoC, AO, and other periphery states were the issue. Those were not know. Actually the BattleMech / Conventional Forces / Warship Numbers are known – canon numbers are provided within Sarna. And this is the problem, once the numbers are known – how becomes unknown – and then there is the question of where are these military industrial facilities circa 3025 onwards …. The more information is discovered the more unknowns require answers – such as where were all the warships manufactured (as noted above)? As for the breakaway just prior to Amaris Coup – the only combatants were the SLDF and the Periphery States + Amaris’ shadow armies – all Great Houses sat out of the game. Quote: Kerensky wouldn't know how many forces would be at his back going to the TH. The same fear would be bypassing worlds to hit Terra. Disagree – yes once contact is made within the periphery the size of the enemy can be determined by military intelligence over a period of time. As for the TH yes I agree Kerensky would only have knowledge as to the Forces that have been seen by the SLDF prior to the Coup – they should have kept him informed as to the goings on within the TH as well as the security of Terra. All he then needs to do is dispatch his surveillance Jump-ships as reconnaissance and let military intelligence and his spy agencies do their thing. So over a period of time he should have a fairly comprehensive idea as to what is going on within the TH and upon Terra. Quote: But as said already, this may be why Kerensky paused outside of the TH. To make sure the periphery wasn't heading into his backside. Only a complete idiot would leave forces in the rear and go charging off to attack a new target of opportunity – However when you factor in the size of the SLDF from the get go Kerensky has enough to keep the forces in the Periphery pinned down – strike at the Rim World Territory – and at the same time send a strike force at Terra. As for sitting outside – this is beyond an egregious error …. Quote: I think you missed the point of the forces were sent out before the periphery war started. That meant Amaris had a lot more units then what was there fighting the SL as well as what was sent to the TH. So how many more regiments and warships did they build to do this and still have the forces to garrison the TH? And this was all missed entirely. Rim Worlds Territorial State ……………………………………………………Rim World…….…Shadow……..Hegemony……....Total Forces BattleMech Regiments ……………….90* (approx.)……….292………………100…………………482 Conventional Regiments…………..….30* (approx.)……..75 (approx.)…..44 (approx.)…149 (approx.) Warships ………………………………….....110 (min.)…………..46…………………..270………………426 (approx.) Mechant-men Ships……….…………….complement necessary to transport all land / air forces etc. Note: Rim Worlds Warships does not include Mako Corvettes sold to them form the DC. So far this is complete amount of information discovered as to Amaris’ forces ….. and it is still below one seventh of that of the complete SLDF as calculated …. The figures are just not there for a prolonged war between Amaris and the Rim Worlds Territorial State … there needs to be some technological advantage that Amaris has that equalizes the numerical advantage …. Two things comes to mind …. Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and Enterprise Vigilant Corvette – Super Carrier Once one side starts using nukes then the other will reciprocate in kind – so that’s out. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/15/20 08:37 AM)
ghostrider 07/15/20 12:27 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply As someone stated before, the SLDF did not have some TROs or other books stating every last thing the enemy had. We get the full numbers, but the in story characters don't The fact that the periphery had more ships and troops then they should have, would put an unease feeling into the military Intel. So it is possible in their minds, that the periphery was holding back units to start hitting weak garrisons, once the SLDF had turned it's attention elsewhere. This concept, as well as the fact they had no real idea just how many or even where to leave a token force in the periphery, to even attempt to pin in periphery troops. Other then having contact with those troops, trying to pin point them at any one time would be impossible. With the 3d way of the universe, the concept you propose to hit Terra with come back and negate the idea of pinning in troops. If the SLDF knew how many and where the troops were, they would not have needed so many more troops to do anything. The idea of having enemy behind you as you charge a new point isn't being a complete idiot, as most raids, as well as more then a few necessary attacks have had to do that. Pushing up the beaches in Normandy was done, even though there were large chunks of the defenses still very much in tact. It had to be done to remove several threats. Main ones is pin down any Axis reinforcements, as well as silence artillery that could reach the beach and support the defense forces there. Same concepts can be applied to any battle. You are trying to stop a nuclear meltdown started by an enemy. You are not going to engage the delaying force to destroy them all before heading past them. You are going to do your best to punch thru and hope you damage them enough to avoid pursuit. This could also just be them moving up weapons, such as artillery. Taking an enemy's ammo dump and such.
Requiem 07/15/20 07:08 PM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: We get the full numbers, but the in story characters don't The fact that the periphery had more ships and troops then they should have, would put an unease feeling into the military Intel. Yes I agree that the in story characters would have unease …. Once Richard announced his secret alliance with the Rim World’s First Consul this should have produced a ripple of unease …. Problem is that Military Intelligence would have been keeping a very close watch over every and all military assets brought into the TH and that information would have been relayed to the SLDF C3 aboard Kerensky’s Flagship within the Territorial States (Periphery); The most bizarre issue however is the is the issue of the Rim Wolds Territorial State Military Limitations as laid down by the Reunification War (2577-2597) and the aftermath Territorial Treaty in which included a disarmament provision – restricting the Worlds Territorial State to only 8 light BattleMech Regiments and 4 Conventional Regiments (The idea was to reduce the Rim Worlds Territorial States armed forces to a size where they could never succeed form the Star League and endanger the neighboring states.). Which was then modified with the Council Edict of 2650 - The Act allows the Rim Worlds Republic to increase its military form 8 light BattleMech Regiments and 4 Conventional Regiments to 12 BattleMech Regiments of various sizes and 8 Conventional Regiments. However by 2760 – Officially the Rim Worlds Republic visible military has been increased to 30 BattleMech and 10 Conventional Regiments. However the Rim Royal Guard Act has allowed the Republic’s Military to expand its military to more than tripling this figure. Thus despite the rules limiting the military of every House / Territorial State (Periphery) by 2766 Amaris walks in the front door of the TH with 144 Regiments (100 of which was Mechs) to take up positions with the SLDF Bases ….. and when did the 270 Warships and arrive within the TH? …. No one even reacts to the point that Amaris has arrived with a Naval Armada of 270 Warships? Or did it arrive after Terra and Cameron Fell? Then there is the question how do you get 270 ships from the Rim Worlds Territorial State to that of the TH without having every alarm bell ringing? As no House / Territorial state would have been allowed a force this large ….. and this is one of the prime duties of the SLDF to restrict the size of any House / Territorial state to the Legal minimum (Legal Disarmament). Please Explain ….. Quote: So it is possible in their minds, that the periphery was holding back units to start hitting weak garrisons, once the SLDF had turned it's attention elsewhere. This is one of the many questions military intelligence is asking – who, where and how were these forces established as each of the Territorial States (Periphery) has a military on par with a single Amy unit of the SLDF. (Their questions will be realized when Amaris notifies Kerensky of Richard Cameron’s death and his appointment as “First Lord”. Quote: With the 3d way of the universe, the concept you propose to hit Terra with come back and negate the idea of pinning in troops. Mobility is key in this war – however if you can create a blockade of a world then any forces on that world can be hunted down – first by satellites / ship cameras looking for their heat blooms / radio traffic – then by forces sent down to hunt them down. However, the real problem with a war within these Territorial states is that of the limited number of worlds. A full frontal assault upon the SLDF by an Amaris’ shadow forces is pointless if your aim is to pin the SLDF within the Territorial State for a long period of time. So what we are looking at here is another Vietnam! Let me explain using the TC – at this time frame there is only 18 worlds and Amais’ Secret Army arrived via the Deep Periphery – what this means is that they could have already established multiple bases on multiple worlds within what would be known at that time frame as the Deep Periphery. (and they could have been establishing these bases over many, many years thus they could have created defensive positions / fortress brains etc. established on these worlds as well as underground tunnels etc to create kill worlds that the SLDF will be hard pressed to fight against What this means is that you can use maps further in history to show these worlds – and then put Amaris forward fire bases on them). Thus Amaris Forces can raid the SLDF on whim on the TC’s 18 worlds and if necessary can retreat to worlds within the Deep Periphery – What this also means is that Kerensky will be required to send his fleet out to these unknown systems in an attempt to hunt down Amaris’ shadow forces and once found he will require a massive amount of forces to dislodge / destroy them - in all reality this could take years for Kerensky’s SLDF to complete a massive number search and destroy missions within the Deep Periphery (and hoping your forces are attacked so that you can find them) whist at the same time protecting the TC 18 worlds (which he is using for his forward bases / logistical bases). Which are now a target for Amaris’ shadow forces for raids. Thus what we are looking at is a space battle that has the same characteristics as the Vietnam soldiers within the jungle or on leave in Saigon (terrorist bombings / Tet offensives etc.) And, just like Vietnam, Kerensky will need more and more ships and troops to conduct search and destroy missions within the Deep Periphery (at that time). Also if Kerensky pulls his forces out too early just imagine the amount of damage they could cause in your rear. I would also like to point out one other tactic no one has considered – pulling the Great Houses into the War – if Amaris has such a small force in comparison to that of SLDF – asking for assistance from the Great Houses is pointless – what your forces need to do is create a situation that makes it look as if the SLDF attacked one or more of the Great Houses - you need to get their people riled up against the SLDF – forcing the Hand of their Ruler so that they will have no choice but to declare war on the SLDF. For the DC this would not have been that difficult – when researching the era before the coup it is obvious that the Rim Worlds and the DC had a strong relationship – the idea that Stefan would take DC hostages is ludicrous – they are Allies prior to this so why not bring them into the war? Read the Council Edit of 2650 - It also furthered the divide between the Draconis Combine and the Star League as the many within the Combine viewed the Edict as a means of preventing the Combine from growing too powerful. The DC always wanted the SL and the SLDF destroyed - if this was Amaris’ aim from the get go rather than becoming the next First Lord and creating the Amaris Empire I am under the firm belief that the DC would have joined him in the war to destroy both. And once one Great House is in the War the others will also have to choose a side lest the DC gains access to the TH and all of their military industrial complexes – Navy and Army! – thus disrupting the balance of power – they cannot allow a stronger Great House on their border …. Thus we now have the First Inner Sphere War – A war where the majority of all the Great Houses / Territory States (Periphery) are at war with one another. If you wanted chaos war in the Inner Sphere – here it is! Quote: The idea of having enemy behind you as you charge a new point isn't being a complete idiot, as most raids, as well as more then a few necessary attacks have had to do that. Where both sided have a small force – not a problem. Where both sides have a massive force – not a chance – a rear guard force will be required less you will be attacked from the rear and the flanks all at once. Normandy – forward assault upon fixed positions …… not a true example as the Germans are not in your rear this is a breakthrough … Example that should be considered is the Anzio landings …. Quote: You are not going to engage the delaying force to destroy them all before heading past them. You are going to do your best to punch thru and hope you damage them enough to avoid pursuit. Cold War USA Tactics? Sorry but no thanks – putting a small nuclear weapon on a recoilless rifle and then putting that on a jeep (Davy Crockett – Nuke) then using that to destroy your enemy so that your forces can then walk through irradiated areas to destroy the enemy is not what I would describe as a great idea ….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uDWwUToP_8 You tube video of M38A1 Jeep with M28 Davy Crockett nuclear recoilless rifle walk around …. also like to point out that these are the type of Nukes that an army would have during the succession wars! Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/15/20 09:05 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The idea of having bases elsewhere is true for all the periphery states. They could hide it much better then the houses, as they are not as boxed in. The houses have a more limited area they can maneuver in, though their sheer size would suggest his is wrong. the fact that they were being watched better then the periphery would be why this is more likely. Bringing in the DC to fight the SL wouldn't happen, as the DC would not do so, unless the SDLF was hurt far more then what they were. They had to maintain the illusion of being a good member of the SL. Not only to avoid the SLDF hitting them, but in this era, the FS and LC would as well. Even without orders, they would probably say they were helping the SLDF. So this would probably have meant the DC declined such a deal. The numbers of regiments the RWR showed up to Terra with, would have caused Kerensky to relocate as many units as he could to cover the TH. If that meant removing one of the 3 armies from each house, then so be it. The fact they had so many would have caused a full shut down of almost anything else, even if it meant going against orders from Richard himself. There is NO way any security force would have allowed the armies. This would be the first sign that someone wasn't telling the truth with intel. It would make me wonder if the head or one of the higher ups in SL intel wasn't part of the coup. I can see missing a few regiments, as they would be spread out covering worlds, while others would be hiding, but that would be maybe a dozen max, if even that. Not a cold war tactic, but a real war scenario. The enemy has artillery or nukes or what even weapon behind their lines that will cause massive damage if not stopped. Your force will not stand and fight the perimeter untis for hours, as they don't have the time to spare. They will punch thru and run to remove the threat. The idea that the enemy will send pursuit units to slow you down and hoping they take you out would happen. It has happened in real wars, maybe not the nuke, but other issues. The troops that air dropped into Bolagne, I believe it was, is a prime example of this. So was that stupidity to do so? Or a great way to tie up Axis forces trying to remove them?
Requiem 07/16/20 09:58 PM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: They could hide it much better than the houses, as they are not as boxed in. If I remember correctly, this isn’t exactly correct – The problem being the 2D nature of the Map (though how you create a 3D version for a book would be interesting.) creates a limiting bias in understanding the nature of Planets in space. Thus you need to consider that for every world seen on the Inner Sphere Map there is thousands of worlds surrounding this world in a vast 3D area – though when placed on a 2D Map they can produce the illusion of being close but this may not necessarily be true – they could be 100 Light Years away it is the illusion of a 2D map upon a compressed 3D System that causes the issue. As such these worlds that exist all around the worlds on the 2D Map should also be investigated for their suitability. This is a point of contention for me – I believe that every Military throughout the entire Inner Sphere history should have a space cartography / geological survey unit. Not only do they hunt for “Rare Metals” that are required in the manufacture of most of the weapons manufactured, they also ‘scout’ for the suitability of systems that could be used in protecting the realms more vital infrastructure – at the top of the list Ship-yards – especially Warship and Commercial Jump-ship, then weapons manufacturing, then hidden bases for military / Politicians (Ruling Family) especially during a nuclear war. Not only does it ensure the continuality of government it also produces a reason for nations not to go to war due to the uncertainty of war to start with – if you do not know where your opposite state’s military is and its actual size, how are you going to attack? You may attack but could find your forces in that area quickly overwhelmed. Thus in reality the wars would be fought 99% of the time in the shadows in hidden systems surrounding the populated worlds. Thus making the capture of a world only necessary once your forces have enveloped / annexed all the 3D space surrounding it If a 2D Map is to be used then I consider that there should be a hard and fast rule limiting Jumpships to their range and also from one world on the Map to the next – thus forcing the military armies to move one world to the next on the 2D map and at the same time making it illegal to move into space between worlds – thus the 3039 war move becomes an illegal move without establishing more worlds on the map to begin with. Quote: Bringing in the DC to fight the SL wouldn't happen The issue is geopolitics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics The Saga of Tanya the Evil put it best …. Manga graphic novel volume 3 …. Converted to Battletech … “There will be an Inner Sphere wide war – most (if not all) of the powers will be dragged into a conflict that reaches a Inner Sphere wide scale. The Rim Worlds are an emerging state power and comparing to the others they boast an advantage. With the exception of the Star League and the Star League Defense Force, in a one on one fight the Rim Worlds would surely emerge victorious. Its difficult to believe that any of the Great Houses would simply stand by while that happens. They will be forced to confront the question of whether they should allow the birth of a new dominant state or take action to stop it. If the Rim Worlds were able to take the Terran Hegemony, positioned in the centre of the map, and eliminates the Star League they will have a relative advantage … but will it be an absolute superiority? (Consider the damage to both sides at this stage) Thus if the Rim Wolds can’t eliminate the Star League and the Star League Defense Force quickly …. without giving the Great Houses room to interfere …. the conflict will trigger a domino effect that will involve the other Great Houses. That’s why they’ll try to make it so both Rim Worlds and the Star League fall – this can be achieved with providing both sides weapons and volunteer troops. Then when both the Rim Worlds and the Star League have exhausted themselves ... they will swoop in and take everything – some may even team up with other powers for a direct intervention against the remaining forces of both sides. Thus for the Rim Worlds to achieve peace is making attrition of Star league Human Resources their top priority – they must crush the Star League’s ability to continue fighting – They need to keep their military in-tact (as far as they can) so that if necessary they can deliver a decisive blow against any of the other Great Houses – retain strategic flexibility. The Rim Wolds will need to exhaust the Star League Army via tactical disruption and penetrating raids upon the remaining Star League soldiers. Minimize Rim World Losses – consider the attritional containment doctrine.” To which I believe is apt in this case … Consider …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment Clearly the war within the Terran Hegemony initially succeeded. The problem is the Territorial Regions (Periphery States) Wars and the war within the Rim Worlds itself. Each state must use attrition containment warfare and pin down as many Star League Armies as they can. Making sure that Kerensky will not have any available forces to move on the Terran Hegemony – and then exhaust the Star League as quickly as possible. Otherwise the Great Houses will interfere and there will be an Inner Sphere war once the Rim Worlds and the Star League are exhausted. The idea that all the Great Houses will have a sit down with an exhausted Kerensky at the end of the war is farcical – They will just attack, thus producing an Inner Sphere wide war …. Given the length of time it requires to build the Rim worlds Territorial State’s Shadow Army – currently I am looking at 150 years – there must have been a massive amount of War Games Data and discussions on the subject and viewed from every perspective. A master plan must have been produced somewhere along the line. The idea that all the hard work that went into producing this war would be undone by an idiot / sadist etc. like the canon Stefan Amaris is beyond ludicrous. This is why I have decided to create my own Alt Universe: Territorial States – Star League Segregation War …. and move on from there …. Quote: The numbers of regiments the RWR showed up to Terra with, would have caused Kerensky to relocate as many units as he could to cover the TH. The problem is not only the size of the SLDF – 20 Armies – Like the 20 Clans ….. Even with all the data – 3 Territorial States – 9 Armies (3 each) Initially ; Rim Worlds Territorial State – 6 Armies Initially; However, this still leaves 4 ½ (or there about) to engage the forces within the TH; In all reality the idea of becoming a new Fist Lord just does not work given all the available information – thus the need to adopt a new radical shift in my logic. What is it that the Rim Worlds wants after spending 150 years working towards a war – taking over or freedom? And this is what my Alt Universe rewrite is going to be about – not a war of conquest but a war of disbandment from the Star League. Quote: There is NO way any security force would have allowed the armies. I agree this entire premise is impossible. Quote: The idea that the enemy will send pursuit units to slow you down and hoping they take you out would happen. … The troops that air dropped into Bolagne… Is this the Battle of Bologna? …. Except this is a ground battle and the last major battle in Italy. Major Paratrooper Engagements include Crete – took the entire island Sicily – created confusion Normandy – yes they punched through here Market Garden – for the most part they punched through (except for the last bridge) and one minor one of interest … Gran Sasso Raid by Otto Skorzeny - liberated Benito Mussolini I would also like to add one more point of interest Has anyone looked at the Military Dropships of this era? The majority of Military Dropships are the Dictator, Lee (three variants), Czar (two variants) and Triumph (three variants) – as for Overlord (Started Production 2762) and Union (Started Production 2708). Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/17/20 02:51 AM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The issue with the SL having troops stationed across the houses is why it would be a little more difficult for them to hide things, like extra troops or construction facilities then the periphery could. What would be uninhabited systems for most, could well host some sort of bases that no one would know about, as few, if any even go out that far. That is where the story seems to lose their numbers. The RWR making that many units, yet the houses couldn't tells the story that the periphery WAS beyond the rules of the IS. I am not sure if it was illegal for them to do so. They were not really part of the SL. It may well have been the houses wanting the first lord to increase their troop numbers, as the periphery was becoming a real issue to their security. Granted, if they weren't so nasty to the periphery states, they may not have had any issues. There is the Confederate dropship that is in the 2750 TRO, As I don't have any information on the rest of them, I can't say if they are good or bad for dropships with the exception of the standard 3025 version of the Triumph.
Requiem 07/17/20 04:09 PM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The issue with the SL having troops stationed across the houses is why it would be a little more difficult for them to hide things, Difficult ….. yes, Impossible ……no Consider our world as is, if it has only one SLDF Garrison on it how could they surveillance the entire world at once? Ans: Satellites, and yet their trajectory can also be mathematically calculated to determine blind spots. As long as it is not evident as to what is going on it would be very difficult to detect. Example: WW2 – Partisans were able to create a weapons manufacturing plant in a bicycle repair shop. Consider creative solutions within hidden locations. Or create a front that looks and acts like a business and yet has a hidden façade – as long as you are able to maintain the front and not draw unwarranted attention why would anyone investigate? Worlds can be very large and garrisons and those within are so very small – they SLDF cannot be everywhere, and then once major facilities are off world how long will it be before they become self-sufficient? Once base worlds become self sufficient, hidden within the Deep Periphery, the only resource left is people ….. and again the SLDF cannot be on every world. Registry computerized information can be manipulated, people are there one day, gone the next only their community would know they are gone – and if they are in on plan then it will be harder still. Then when you are the Government it is easier still – capital works can allow for hidden construction at the same time during a building contract. Only something out of the normal, bad luck?, could cause an issue if it has been well thought out. And in this case the RWR must have established a very well thought out plan to allow the creation of their Shadow army. The big question is where are all these facilities in the far future as no one has even scratched the surface when it comes to the size and scope of the RWR’s facilities required during this age. It must be remembered that the RWR must have become the second largest manufacturing state in the IS at that time! The Lyrans were never able to capitalize on this fact during the succession wars! They must have gone looking for them – so why didn’t they find them? …. Or didn’t anyone think through the back story issues, as written at the time, and we are only now getting around to it? Quote: if they weren't so nasty to the periphery states, they may not have had any issues. Territorial Treaty following the Reunification War (2577-2597) Given all my reading so far the treaty consisted of the following ….. Territorial Treaty - Each former Periphery state was assigned a Territorial Status within the Star League, whereby …. Each Territorial State will be … Restricted Membership – restricted access to the High Council, through their Star League Administrator only, and no voting rights, as well as having no say in their taxation and tithe requirements; Appointed a Star League Administrator (During a High Council emergency meeting, if the matter being discussed involves a Territorial State, its Administrators can attend the meetings and participate, but were not given the right to vote.); An Administrator is assigned to each Sate (permanently living on each capitol world) and they effectively have veto over each periphery Government’s actions and as part of their duties they will be sending reports to the Star League on Terra as to each Territorial States activities; (Nt. Council Directive 41 – 2722 – removal of their Administrators as from this point forward) Reparations - Required to-meet their taxation and conscription tithe requirements (personnel) to the Star League Defence and the Star League; Refer here to Executive order 34 – “reaffirmed the right of the Star League Defense Force to recruit from any member state without interference from its government.” Territorial Concessions - Provide the Star League Defence Force – 20th Army – with garrisons and fortresses throughout the Rim Worlds Territory; Disarmament – Initially restricted the Rim Worlds Territorial State to only 8 light BattleMech Regiments and 4 Conventional Regiments (The idea was to reduce the Rim Worlds Territorial States armed forces to a size where they could never succeed form the Star League and endanger the neighboring states.); Also refer to The Council Edict of 2650 – this allowed the RWR to increase their military size – however this reduced the size of the DCMS – effectively creating the first Ronin and the First Hidden War. Travel Limitations – RWR citizens’ access to travel outside their Territorial Stare was restricted. So it is no wonder that the people within these Territorial states resented (and came to hate) the Star League –to such an extent that they formed a secret cabal and worked together to overthrow the Star League (as seen via their cooperation with regards to allowing the shadow army into each of their realms.) Quote: There is the Confederate dropship that is in the 2750 TRO, As I don't have any information on the rest of them. Ever Dropship can be found within - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:DropShip_classes Note: The “Category:” section of the sarna wiki is very helpful when researching topics. Quote: Question with regards to Executive order 34 - reaffirmed the right of the Star League Defense Force to recruit from any member state without interference from its government. The discovery of Executive order 34 required me to ask the following consider the following site … https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_Wa Under the Heading – Civil War – contained the following quote, “Both sides then requested aid, which was flatly refused by each Territorial State and each Inner Sphere State.” However Executive Order 34 gives Kerensky the LEGAL right of effectively nationalizing every House’s Military into the SLDF and thereby providing him with the additional forces to crush Amaris …… Remember at this stage he still has the biggest army and the navy on the block and the Star League is still operational … and if the Houses said no then it is now a revolt by every IS House against the legal authority of the SL and the SLDF. Also as Amaris had effectively taken the throne why didn’t he also attempt to use Executive Order 34 – and by doing so effectively throwing the entire IS into a constitutional nightmare as to the duties of the individual states to that of the Star League? This one act alone could have triggered an IS wide war where Kerensky is now not only at war with Amaris, he is now also at war with all of the renegade Houses that refuse his order under Executive Order 34. Sorry but this is a now a massive black hole within the story …. Going it alone against Amaris and the having well over 90% of your entire forces destroyed shows a lack of military and political understanding …..Kerensky is by far one of the most incompetent Generals the IS has ever produced. War is about time – minimizing it – that means shock and awe tactics, with the Houses assistance - complete devastation of Amais – what it also means is that the Houses are in no shape to fight each other for the throne (for the foreseeable future) and once it is discovered that the Cameron line is gone – What this also means is that this gives Kerensky the Political time he needs to come up with a solution to the Great Houses refusal to elect a new First Lord. Thus Kerensky was in no way a consummate politician – inept comes to mind here! Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/18/20 04:11 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Again. The issues with retconning things is anyone that has known of the history, can spot the holes in the information. I believe someone stated that the LC was trying to use economic means to infiltrate and take over some of the RWR industries. The war ended that. Some facilities are done just by needing a coms technician in a remote area, and they start building more then just the tech shack in secret. Covers make great ways to hide things in plain sight. The more remote the area, the better the chances are. Stupid ideas may well be the start of such bases, such as someone building a company factory for boats on a world that doesn't have much water to use them on. The premise being they will ship them off world, then declare bankruptcy. Toxic spills is yet another way to take over a building for such an plan. Other things like a nuclear dump can cover for a massive base, though you don't use the area the public views the waste at. The LC did annex a lot of RWR lands. It is most likely they did look for it, and found a lot of destroyed buildings. It is possible that say LOKI found some working ones and put in the claim that they were all destroyed, then used them for their purposes. Kerensky may well have used the executive order, and the states said no. He probably refused to do anything as it would put an even further strain on the SLDF while he was going to remove Amaris. It does suggest Kerensky didn't seek the power that was there. Then again, he may well have avoided it, as he KNEW the house lords would refuse. This may well have had a major impact on his decision to leave.
Requiem 07/18/20 08:50 PM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: I believe someone stated that the LC was trying to use economic means to infiltrate and take over some of the RWR industries. I am not really surprised, given the Mother Doctrine imposed controls over a wide range of government and civilian technologies - restricting commerce within the Terran Hegemony – thus ensuring their Technological superiority over other Houses, the only recourse is that of the industrial espionage to level the technological playing field. Also for the corporation under the edict – if the information was no longer restricted as it was now within the Inner Sphere wouldn’t they now be allowed to use that technology to sell their products Inner Sphere wide – more consumers = more profit = more wealth! As for creating plausible deniability / front companies etc., yes there are a wide range of options / strategies available. Quote: The LC did annex a lot of RWR lands. It is most likely they did look for it, and found a lot of destroyed buildings. The problem is that the LC never went into the Deep Periphery to investigate hidden outpost realms. Thus the RWR security team did their job and destroyed all evidence as to their existence. Quote: It is possible that say LOKI found some working ones and put in the claim that they were all destroyed, then used them for their purposes. Problem is that if Loki – the LC security team – begins amassing military technology for their own use, this can only mean one thing – A coup is in the off, and it will be occurring soon! Quote: Kerensky may well have used the executive order, and the states said no. Problem is that Kerensky cannot shrug off a no from the House Lords. If enacted and they say no – the House Lords have effectively declared their independence from the Star League and as such the League is now in a de facto state of being disbanded (ie. it does not exist)! This therefore creates the following domino effect – if the League no longer exists, then the tithe system no longer exists – hence all Houses’ personnel who enlisted into the SLDF via the tithe system are now in a state of libo as to the legality of their current enlistment – will they remain with the SLDF and serve out their term or will they leave and return to their house (and will they take their weapons with them - especially their naval and battlemech units)? Will Kerensky demand they remain with the SLDF and shoot some of them for desertion? (Causing even more problems) In all actuality the SLDF at this point in time could split completely into its Component House tithe armies, those willing to remain with the SLDF, and the Royal Units which are 100% TH enlisted personnel. This is the point of why Amaris would use it as a WMD – it throws the entire SLDF into a massive quandary as to whom your allegiance lies – to the SL or to your House? If to your House this could effectively neutralize their superior numbers overnight! House Amaris personnel will definitely defect back to Amaris and the RWR as well as those units where their personnel is from one of the other Territorial States (Periphery States). This could provide an example to others to defect back to their House from this early stage! What it also creates is a military nightmare – what would Kerensky do next – retake the TH and then fight every House and Periphery in an attempt to reform the Star League and who for….. who is the First Lord he will Fight for? (as all the Houses / Periphery States have at this point gone rogue) or just take back the TH and accept the fact that the League no longer exists. Then there is the issue of SLDF units with Houses – if the Star League no longer exists and the houses declare them persona non grata where do they go? what do they do? How do they get permission to move through realms that have declared their independence? Or even remain on any House Worlds to attack the TH? This is the real fun when using Executive Order 34 – it really does throw the cats among the pigeons! It has the potential of fracturing the SL and the SLDF right from the start of the Civil War and creating a massive legal nightmare as to what the SLDF is allowed to do next. Quote: he KNEW the house lords would refuse. As shown above – within the canon he asked for help and was rebuffed –if EO 34 was used then the League is effectively dead from that point onwards – the House Lords didn’t have to go to Terra at all – you are now at a succession war scenario way earlier than was predicted. Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider 07/19/20 06:21 PM 66.74.60.165	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Look at what you said above with the refusal of obeying order 34. With Kerensky looking to take out Amaris, he could not afford any sort of actions against the houses. This very sets up the fall of the SL, with the house lords thinking they have the power. The SLDF is hurt, but the houses don't know how badly. It is possible they thought he was really on the ropes and would use the SLDF to bolster their own house forces to hit the others. When he would not even attempt to lie and say he would, they basically refused to believe anything other then they could take the throne. Amaris using the WMDs on everyone he could, might well have come from the fact that he thought he was in complete control. or maybe trying to make the houses bow to him, as he would use any method at his means to force them. He alone had more forces then most of the houses put together. He may well have thought to split the SLDF forces, and removed that threat from his side, then would use them to hit the houses. The fact so many sided with Kerensky put that idea to rest. The question of loyalty comes into effect here. Those soldiers recruited from the house areas, what would they do? They were only born in the house areas, so why would they return home? They swore an oath to the SLDF and SL to serve. Not sure of the actually wording, but it may have included until death. Either way, They would have been honor bound to serve with Kerensky until a new first lord could be elected. Or they could return home and serve the house leaders, as would be considered right for someone born in that area. This is a very old problem. Even in the middle ages, this was a very important issue. Given all of this, it can be seen why Kerensky decided to leave the IS? Soldiers fight, but what is left? A destroyed TH, with the house lords moving in to remove any sort of civil government as any one of them gets the position and the entire IS becomes what Amaris did. Even for the most dedicated soldier, this is NOT what they signed up for. They signed up to protect and defend all that claimed loyalty to the SL. They did not sign up to make worlds wastelands and kill millions, if not billions of innocent people because their leaders are greedy manipulative morons out for their own power.
Requiem 07/20/20 01:17 AM 1.158.211.140	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Look at what you said above with the refusal of obeying order 34. Yes, I know exact what was written and I know exact what it means – Aleksandr Kerensky is little more than a Lyran Social General – it is no wonder he went to the Nagelring! In war as in politics you use your vassals first inflict damage upon your enemy, so as to judge their strength, and to limit any retribution by your vassals in the event your main army has been decimated by the enemy (as your vassals are unhurt if unused) – thus setting up the scene for a dissolution of the empire and a civil war between your vassals. (as exactly what Kerensky allowed to occur …., further proof of his incompetence!) Quote: Amaris using … he would use any method at his means to force them. Yes, he will use Executive Oder 34 at the earliest stage of the Coup ….. thus throwing the entire SL into a constitutional mess …. Who knows how many forces would have remained loyal to the SLDF and how many would have defected back to one the Great Houses …. Thus effectively destroying the Kerensky's forces …. Remember even with the defections unless a majority of the Navy moves to one specific House Amaris will still have the second largest Military in the IS! Remember the Canon version did not take the nuclear option of using Executive Oder 34 – and it assumed that everyone would adhere to the Tithe System – in reality however with the writing on the wall as the destruction of the Star League what would the majority of the tithes warriors from the Great houses do? My bet the House Lords would offer any SLDF personnel wishing to enter their service amnesty. Thus the destruction of the Star League takes one step closer. Quote: He may well have thought to split the SLDF forces, and removed that threat from his side, then would use them to hit the houses Problem is that Amaris forces inflicted over 90% damage to the SLDF Navy and Army – if he then attempted to take on the Houses he would have been destroyed utterly. Quote: They were only born in the house areas, so why would they return home? No, at 18 they would be drafted for the SLDF as a tithe soldier – you really don’t have a choice in the matter – still want to stay with the SLDF? Quote: They swore an oath to the SLDF and SL to serve. Not sure of the actually wording, but it may have included until death. Some may take the oath to heart, but how many if forced into the situation would keep it – How many at the end of the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War ended up joining one House or another rather than remaining with Kerensky and with the last remnants of the SLDF? Yes I agree it is a vey important issue when you realize the majority of the SLDF came as a Tithe warrior from one of the Great Houses or a Territorial State (Periphery). It is a great way at destroying the SLDF without even one shot being fired. Quote: Given all of this, it can be seen why Kerensky decided to leave the IS? Soldiers fight, but what is left? A destroyed TH A soldier does not fight to destroy, a soldier fights to preserve and to rebuild. Kerensky’s Exodus is just coward’s way out! Remember the Gretest General of his time Commanding General of the SLDF Ikolor Fredasa A thoughtful and intelligent Commander who’s personal loyalty was dedicated to the League as a whole and ideals of the Star League, rather than to the First Lord; and His belief that the SLDF maintains a mandate of protecting and maintaining the peace between Star League Members. Running away is in no way maintaining this belief! Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight. Edited by Requiem (07/20/20 08:26 PM)
Requiem 07/28/20 11:11 PM 1.158.133.26	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply My Alt Universe LDF Rank Structure:- Existing structure too restrictive for a military the size of the SLDF. Star League Marshal - Combined Arms Commander-in Chief; Field Marshal – Member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; General –Army; Lieutenant General – Corps; Major General – Division; Brigadier – Brigade; Colonel - Staff Officer / Regiment; Lieutenant Colonel – Regiment; Major – Battalion; Captain – Company; Lieutenant – Platoon / Lance; Second Lieutenant; Officer Cadet; Senior Enlisted NCO - Advisor to the Chairman – Senior enlisted adviser to the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Command Warrant Officer - Senior enlisted adviser to regiment commanding officer; Senior Warrant Officer – Senior enlisted adviser to battalion commanding officer; Warrant Officer – Senior enlisted adviser to company commanding officer; Master Sergeant – management role of the regiment; Color/Gunnery Sergeant – management role of battalion; Staff Sergeant – management role of company; Sergeant; Corporal; Lance Corporal; Private; Enlisted – undertaking training; SLDF Award Structure:- “Defending the awarding of medals, Napoleon once declared: “You call these baubles, well, it is with baubles that men are led… Do you think that you would be able to make men fight by reasoning? Never.” Legion of Honor The highest award for extreme courage in combat – extreme courage upholding the honor of the SLDF in defiance of overwhelming odds – Honorary Title “Keeper of the Star League’s Honor”; Military Valor Cross Awarded for gallantry and professionalism in the face of the overwhelming enemy forces; Knight’s Liberation Progressive award after winning the Knight’s Valor Medal; Knight’s Valor Progressive Award after winning the Knight’s Cross; Knight’s Cross Awarded for Valor in the face of enemy forces; Silver Knight’s Star * Gallantry in action against an enemy; * With Oak leaf Cluster – denotes an additional second and subsequent awards; Bronze Knight’s Star * Heroic or meritorious achievement or service; * With Oak leaf Cluster – denotes an additional second and subsequent awards; Services Rendered Medal Awarded to those wounded or killed while serving. Gunslinger Clasp Awarded to those who have undertaken a “Gunslinger” program. Combat Action Clasp Awarded for the active participation in combat actions or terrorist attack. Armed Forces Deployment Clasp (Campaign Identification Clasp) Awarded for military service in a designated military campaign. SLDF Long Service Clasp – 10 years; 20 years (+ one pin); 30 years (+ two pins); 40 years (+ three pins). Communication in the SLDF Joint Chief of Staff (On Terra.) – (High Command) To Communications Command – HPG (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force#Communications_Command) To Castle Brian (On world) …. Or …. Naval Base (Orbital Faciliy) – lattice throughout the IS and Territory Regions. (Army Command) To Regular Command – Army / Navy / Special Forces - Castle Brian (On world) …. Or …. Naval Base (Orbital Faciliy – of which there are over 500 SLDF Naval Orbital bases scattered around the IS) – lattice throughout the IS and Territory Regions (Corp level) To To Individual Units in the field …. - New Warship Class Required – Communications – Remains in deep space protected by Aerospace forces. - Has Multiple HPG Built into the ship – upon arrival will transmit location back to Regional Command – eg. On Line : Location as follows …. (now placed into the lattice to receive HPG Transmissions – Position must exactly known (static /or have the ability to determine its exact location) to receive information via HPG network) - Communicates via laser transmission to protect its location to Communications Drop-ships (Hub and spoke arrangement) - Transmit information from Drop-ship(s) with all in-system Army / Navy forces –via Black-Box / Satellite relay transmission. Black Box - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator “The culmination of their work was the first HPG station, built in 2629 just outside the Court of the Star League, which transmitted the first HPG message on New Year's Day 2630” “Project TRANSIENT was terminated in 2614 and following the appearance of the much more capable Hyperpulse Generator in 2630 the SLDF Communications Command ordered all the Black Boxes collected and dismantled, but until then all worlds of the Star League received an exemplar” Question: So it only took 30 years to put a HPG on every world within the IS and Territory Regions (Periphery)? How extensive in the SL engineering corp and manufacturing sites? Question: if a HPG is destroyed in the Star League era what was the SLDF contingency plan? Pony- Express? A very sort sighted plan – 1. Satellite Transmission (slow can take hours to reach the outer worlds) or 2. Black Box technology (Very Fast to reach the outer worlds) should have remained as a contingency and used in conjunction with HPG to maintain communication from Regional Command Corp / Army Level with any Units in System – especially if they are engaged in combat. Thus the question must be asked as to how Amaris could disrupt communication in regards to the Canon Amaris-Kerensky War if the only stations removed was within the two periphery states, the Terran Hegemony and the Rim Worlds? Day 1 – disrupt all communication between all 20 armies – where are the nexus points of all communication – take these out to create communication / tactics / strategies disruption within the SLDF? (at the minimum disrupt communication to increase the time of any retaliatory strike by the SLDF.) Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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