Requiem
07/27/20 10:40 PM
1.158.133.26
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tharkad
“Star League - Tharkad (system) was the homeport for the 8th Fleet (SLDF).”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force#Naval_Base
“Over 500 Naval Bases serviced the SLDF, each orbital facility including shipyards, moorings, and housing. Protection was provided for by an ASF wing and two destroyers, although during the final decades that force increased to include a cruiser.”
Question – as Tharkad was the homeport for the 8th Fleet (SLDF), the capitol of the Lyran Commonwealth, and one of the reasons behind keeping the Fleet at Tharkad as to keep the Lyrans in line. Where is their Star League Naval base located?
Question - Then where are the over 500 Naval Bases? Where are they?
Question – Then when you compare the number of Naval Bases built throughout the Star League to the total number of worlds within the Star League and their Territory (Periphery worlds) – where are they?
Every Capitol world even those Territory Realms (in the Periphery) – every regional capitol world – then along borders – then along major logistics routes - then scattered along the periphery border to deter piracy – so where are they / or the remnants of them?
Yes the Succession Wars must have removed many along the borders and even some of the regional capitol worlds – but those stationed against the periphery border?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
07/29/20 09:11 PM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Yes the Succession Wars must have removed many along the borders and even some of the regional capitol worlds – but those stationed against the periphery border?
The First and Second Succession Wars did sometimes remember they were fought in space where there were no real borders. And there are about 1000 uninhabited star systems in the Inner Sphere per inhabited star system, so it's quite easy for JumpShips to "sneak" past borders without ever being seen. That would never work in a war of conquest because of the need for long supply lines, but for independent raids?
It was quite easy for the utterly ruthless First and Second Succession Wars to send raiders behind the lines and drop nuclear weapons on factories, massacre JumpShip convoys in "safe" interior systems, and destroy naval bases. The first two Succession Wars tried really hard to destroy the war making
Karachi (in the A Time of War Companion) is a case in point: the FWL planet was about as far from Liao and Steiner borders as possible, but the Lyrans still raided it:
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The First Succession War was rough on Karachi. Its Brigadier
BattleMech facility enjoyed a ten-year economic boom arming
the Free Worlds League before Lyran naval forces led a deep
strike to the planet. Unable to bypass the space defenses, the
frustrated Lyrans volleyed a pair of capital missiles on long distance
flights. The poor ballistic accuracy led the Lyrans to use
“Metropolis Masher” 100-megaton warheads, which wrecked
the two efficiently concentrated industrial centers on Karachi,
killed almost twenty million people in the target zones, and
gutted the planetary industry. Karachi remained habitable and
the fallout from these attacks did not endanger the remainder
of its population, but the same could not be said for many
Free Worlds planets that depended on Karachian water filters,
weather control satellites, terraforming systems, fusion reactors,
and computer components. In coming decades, worlds would
die for lack of parts and substitutes, as the First and Second
Succession Wars steadily destroyed Karachi’s counterparts.
The attack on Karachi was a perfect First Succession War deep raid: it not only destroyed 'Mech factories, but also crippled Marik's ability to build fusion engines, water filters, and many other systems. First Succession War attacks on worlds like Karachi led to hundreds of planets dying off the map in the Second and Third Succession Wars.
El Dorado (in A Time of War) is another case of an early Succession War deep raid. Its fantastic orbital shipyards were nuked out of the sky by the Kuritans. By 1) being a core world of the Federated Suns, and 2) refusing to host any military factories or shipyards afterwards (until the Clan Invasion), El Dorado largely escaped further wrath of the Succession Wars.
So what happened to all the major, hotly contested Star League Naval bases? A lot of them were blown out of the skies, even if they were over Houses' capital planets.
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Question – as Tharkad was the homeport for the 8th Fleet (SLDF), the capitol of the Lyran Commonwealth, and one of the reasons behind keeping the Fleet at Tharkad as to keep the Lyrans in line. Where is their Star League Naval base located?
Somewhere in the Tharkad system before it was destroyed by the Succession Wars.
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Question - Then where are the over 500 Naval Bases? Where are they?
That depends on the base.
At a backwater planet, it might be a ferrocrete landing pad near the capital, some cryogenic hydrogen tankage, and solar panels to keep the hydrogen topped off from local water supplies with a garrison of 2 half-retired Star League personnel who were planning to retire to local farms. Where's that base now? Either overgrown and abandoned, or still used by visiting DropShips.
On a planet with a decent population and space commerce, the Star League Navy probably just rented some hangar and office space at the local recharge station. Boom, instant Navy Base, the Navy hardly had to pay for it. Where's the base now? Its wreckage plummeted into the sun after a Succession Wars raid, or stripped of cool Star League hardware by the Houses and still serving as a recharge station.
On a core Hegemony planet, then the Star League Navy probably built an awesome, armored space station orbiting the local inhabited planet. It bristled with weapons, was plated in armor, and could handle a dozen WarShips at once. Where is it now? Well, assuming it wasn't blown up during the Star League Civil War, the Houses fought hard over those planets in the First Succession War and they didn't pull punches. So, they probably pulled a fast raid, flying by at a percentage of light speed (see High Speed Closing Engagements in Strategic Operations), and popped some nukes into the Navy base so that its wreckage was slowed and dropped from orbit. It's now located in the Spacebase Memorial Crater.
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Question – Then when you compare the number of Naval Bases built throughout the Star League to the total number of worlds within the Star League and their Territory (Periphery worlds) – where are they?
They are currently located:
1. In Heaven
2. In nuclear craters
3. Occupied, repaired and maintained with much more primitive equipment, and used daily as mundane House spaceports, military or civilian.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
07/29/20 09:48 PM
70.118.172.64
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Spacebase Memorial Crater.
Is the one the high radiation center or the one with deep gouge cut almost to the core of the planet? There are so many in the Inner Sphere it's hard to keep track, since several have mulitple of these sites.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/30/20 06:10 AM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Quote:
Spacebase Memorial Crater.
Is the one the high radiation center or the one with deep gouge cut almost to the core of the planet? There are so many in the Inner Sphere it's hard to keep track, since several have mulitple of these sites.
Heh, yes.
And thank you for a morning chuckle.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Wick
07/30/20 03:05 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
Is the one the high radiation center or the one with deep gouge cut almost to the core of the planet?
Whichever one makes for the most compelling backstory in your campaign of course.
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Requiem
07/30/20 07:00 PM
1.158.133.26
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This is what I do not understand ….
Amaris-Kerensky Civil War and the Wars Prior to, fighting with borders …..
First / Second Succession Wars – fought in space where there were no real borders
- No protection whatsoever to civilians / industry;
- Prior to and during these wars did no one consider to protect their industries and either place them on hidden worlds or put them so far underground a nuclear / chemical / biological attack no longer be considered viable?;
- The entire HPG grid was established upon every world within the IS and Periphery in 30 years thus the industry available to each House must have been vast;
- During the Amaris-Kerensky war contingencies cold have been put in place;
Third Succession war on-wards revert back to fighting with borders? WHY? … given limited resources wouldn’t it be more prudent to strategically attack and hold worlds of industry so that you can rebuild your realms technology / food etc?
Case in point – Fourth Succession War CC front – rather than using the Canon wave strategy – capture every world that contains military industrial capabilities …. Including their capitol utilizing paths through the “1,000 uninhabited star systems per inhabited star system” …. Then switch to identifying every world that has a viable “Mech force on it and neutralizing them ……Wouldn’t this have been a better use of “limited” resources?
Also if Naval bases are so susceptible to Nuclear attacks can anyone explain why the majority are not like Camelot Command? - their location are unknown by all of your enemies? Plus why they do not have an anti-space defense umbrella of different ranged weapons built into them in a hedgehog arrangement of increasing lethality - plus SDS drones – plus mine fields containing massive nuclear ordinance used as an area affect weapon or even as an EMP burst (Fry all electronics) – just like Camelot Command?
Sorry to say but I do not see how this works …. In a game universe where everyone has massive navies and massive amounts of nuclear weapons contingencies ARE put in place …..
The story does not follow a constant narrative …..
Plus back to the issue of “1,000 uninhabited star systems per inhabited star system” which must have been used by the Rim Worlds Territorial Region (Periphery) to manufacture close to 500 Regiments of Battlemenchs + 400 warships prior to conquering the Terran Hegemony. Vs. 4,500+ Regiments of the SLDF and 2750 / 5800 Warships depending on where your read …. And still Kerensky lost over 90%.... it is no wonder he was only a political appointee who believed in apocalyptic dreams / Captain who was put in the top job!
If the Rim worlds could complete this technological endeavour, why didn’t all the Houses undertake this venture at the same time, why you ask? … only internal wars were allowed so destabilizing every House Internally was the means by which the Star League kept the Houses and the Territories in their place?
A Carthaginian Peace, “is the imposition of a brutal “peace” achieved by crushing an enemy”, and as ‘peace’ was imposed by Rome following the Second Punic War the same ‘peace’ was achieved for the Reunification war – The Periphery States lost their independence, was forced to demilitarize and pay a constant tribute to Terra and could only enter war with the First Lord’s permission.
At the end of the Third Punic War, the Romans Systematically burned Carthage to the ground and enslaved its population.
The Rim Worlds Republic decided that they would make sure this would never be them. So why not every House and every Periphery State? The industry is there, the devious nature of every House Lord is there, every House would be looking for the opportunity to strike a knife in the back of the Inner sphere ….
The Star League Defense Force was established with all best intentions with regards to the Inner Sphere and the Territory States, and as such could be called upon to:
• Protect civilians and Star League personnel;
• Non-proliferation of armaments technology;
• Ensure disarmament;
• Monitor disputed borders;
• Provide security across a conflict zone ;
• Monitor and observe peace processes in post conflict zone;
• Assist ex-combatants in implementing any signed peace agreements;
All in an effort to maintain peace! And yet they were a foreign military occupying force based upon every House and Periphery states worlds ….. including their capitol worlds!
However over time the First Lord Family forgot, peace requires an amicable relationship between its members, not the dictatorial rule of Rome and Caesar!
So where is the ides of March and Brutus and all the Senators to remove the dictator?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
07/30/20 09:54 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
This is what I do not understand ….
Amaris-Kerensky Civil War and the Wars Prior to, fighting with borders …..
First / Second Succession Wars – fought in space where there were no real borders
- No protection whatsoever to civilians / industry;
- Prior to and during these wars did no one consider to protect their industries and either place them on hidden worlds or put them so far underground a nuclear / chemical / biological attack no longer be considered viable?;
Because no one fought that way. The Star League Civil War and (200 years earlier) the Reunification War lightly used WMDs. They were conventional battles for conventional conquest. The Age of War before that had been mostly fought under the Ares Conventions - the entirety of the 2412 - 2576 period generated fewer fatalities than the 2-year Fourth Succession War.
You had 350 years of fairly low key wars before the Succession Wars began. Honestly, even the early Age of War (2398 - 2412) wasn't all that violent by Terran standards. World War 2 was bloodier per capita than the Star League Civil War.
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Third Succession war on-wards revert back to fighting with borders? WHY?
That is one of THE most discussed shifts in military strategy in BattleTech. Every House Sourcebook and Handbook discusses why the Succession Wars shifted from total warfare to low key battles in the Third Succession War. This has been discussed and re-discussed for 35 years of BattleTech publications.
After 80 years of all-out effort to destroy industry, the Houses came very close to destroying interstellar civilization. They had no WarShips left, few JumpShips left, few shipyards left, few 'Mech factories left, and were utterly tired of genocidal planetary bombardments. Hundreds of planets and hundreds of billions of people were dead.
No one wanted to court further mass destruction and didn't have giant fleets or armies anymore, so they settled for what they could afford: low key battles on borders, trying to exhaust their opponents. It worked, too - Liao shrank noticeably, and Steiner lost numerous worlds to Kurita.
You've got those Sourcebooks and Handbooks, right?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (07/30/20 09:56 PM)
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Requiem
07/31/20 01:38 AM
1.158.133.26
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After 80 years of all-out effort to destroy industry, the Houses came very close to destroying interstellar civilization. They had no WarShips left, few JumpShips left, few shipyards left, few 'Mech factories left, and were utterly tired of genocidal planetary bombardments. Hundreds of planets and hundreds of billions of people were dead.
Sorry, but I think I did not make my point.
1st / 2nd Succession war ……Deep objective raids to strike at key locations, key facilities, conducted throughout the entire Inner Sphere; (However after the first Nuke was used why every company didn’t take measures to place their facilities underground is beyond me – as considering the engineering prowess of the IS this would not have been a problem!)
With only a small military force than that previously when you look at the 4th Succession War book you view the forces taking worlds close together - one system at a time – then the next, and the next until a geographical area is taken and is then absorbed into the House that conquered them.
So isn’t this a waste of valuable resources?
Shouldn’t you identify key worlds based upon a select criteria
Military Technology
Capture these 1st and bypass all non military / essential worlds
Ie rather than Hanse striking at worlds via wave 1, wave 2 etc – just identify every key military industrial world within the CC and take and hold these worlds as wave 1 Objective Worlds –Logistics can be achieved via Hidden worlds routes – with no major facilities and the loss of their Capitol in wave 1 how long could the CC military survive with the loss of all the majority industries that supply its ammunition and spare parts?
This Head Hunter strategy would have effectively staved the CC military into submission – or try and buy it from the FWL.
This is the key difference I as attempting to allude to.
Cannon Strategy is based upon geo-tactical absorption of an area into the House
Whereas what I am contemplating is striking at only key worlds to achieve victory – and in doing so minimize the damage to my military so that it can take on the next contender …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/20 12:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea of placing factories underground met with the fact that during wars, there tends to be a lack, or hold, on using materials like concrete, or in this case Ferrocrete. This limits how you can do anything like underground building.
Another problem is before the succession wars, the idea of being 'cheap' by making the buildings only strong enough to work happened. This was also combined with the idea of 'it won't happen to me' coming up.
Look at the factories of the world today. Chrysler was tapped to make jeeps and such for the wars the U.S fought. They were not underground facilities, but converted car lines. Even dedicated weapons producers don't spend the funds for moving it all underground. That is not saying it would never happen, but is very rare.
Military intelligence is not the all knowing entity. Concentration of your forces to take one 'continent', then work on another allows you to avoid being so spread out, the enemy's reinforcements can't just drop and wipe out chunks of your forces. And with the succession wars, ambushes as well as dropping unknown forces, was a well used tactic. Again, this goes back to the horrible detection equipment.
The lack of equipment like the Planetlifter didn't allow fast redeployment of your forces to cover things. Again, equipment failures play a big part, as bombing depots and such is very dangerous to the aeropilots and fighters. And this isn't even saying it would succeed.
Essential worlds has a different meaning then grabbing anything you can. Using inhabited systems for jumps is done to help avoid losing ships due to break down. Replacing a jump core is not possible when in a system with nothing in it.
Now with the jump set up, some worlds become essential to take and hold, as they provide access to other systems. The need to have as few jumps to a system is very necessary. Each jump holds the chance of losing not only the jumpship, but everything attached to it. 9 Unions attached to a Monolith means a full regiment could be lost on a miss jump.
Also time is the enemy as well. In order to 'save' a world or system, sitting at a jump point to recharge means an average of a week. This doesn't sound like much, but given how quickly war machines die, it is an eternity for a defender waiting for some help.
Essential is also situational.
You lack say Copper for making items, such as wiring for your war factories. Would you prefer to hit a world that has those resources, or one that produces say jeep, or even scorpion tanks? Even mech production takes a back seat, as you don't have the resources to build what you have, taking another factory puts more strain on your lack of resources.
The strike on the CC came about as holes were seen in the CC's defenses. This was exploited. As I still say Capella should have been hit, the whole war was about destroying the CC. The worlds around Terra, opened up the corridor between the LC and FS. Some of those worlds were not that useful otherwise.
The war is not about land grabs as implied. Otherwise, the LC would be much smaller, as well as the CC. Borders didn't change all that much or maybe the fact that there are far more systems then shown on the map is true.
It seems most invasions were to remove the enemy's forces, and ransom back the world for supplies. Such as the DC owning the most Monolith jumpships, yet only the FS produced them for a long while. Capturing them is highly likely, but I don't think that is the only way. Sales is possible but not as likely.
Try and buy it from another nation isn't likely to happen. Part of a truce or peace deal is about the only other way, besides invasions, to get worlds.
Attacking only worlds with heavy industry is a flawed concept. The enemy will heavily fortify those worlds, once they see you are not interested in anything else, as well as rig those factories to be destroyed if you do. Even removing the equipment and making it a death trap would be common. As you need a supply chain, this sort of action leads to very dangerous situations for your forces. 5 jumps from one secured world to another thru unsecured systems tends to have your forces hit time and time again. This is not a simple one side verses one side. There is such a thing as nations that don't touch each other, sending raids into others, such as the FWL sending in raids against the FS and DC. Not often, but it does happen.
And loyalty of your dukes and such is another issue. You can send in your best forces to take out enemy worlds, but they don't want you to control it. They want full control over it. So they sabotage your plans. Not out right attacking your forces, but just delaying shipments, or letting the enemy know it is coming. Moles are a very big part of this.
What better way to split up your nation, then to send in a few spies that create discord between the rulers of a nation? A civil war benefits them greatly, as it costs them very little, and opens up the chance to invade at a much cheaper cost.
If not for the DC being so aggressive with the LC, the FWL would have lost far more worlds to the LC during the time of Hanse. The civil discord would have allowed the LC to take more worlds, if not for the DC.
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Wick
07/31/20 06:09 PM
173.247.25.195
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Why deep assaults in early wars and border raids by 3rd war? Supply lines.
With many of the Jumpships, transports , and recharge stations destroyed in the first two wars, nobody really had the means to repeatedly drive deep into enemy territory. It took too many resources to maintain a proper supply line, which weakened you somewhere else. Especially when recharge time is taken into account. There were a few cases of deep runs carried or or planned, but these usually didn't pan out well (and cost a few Lords their jobs, i.e. Alessandro Steiner.) A few deep raids (rather than assaults or destruction) occurred but these were almost suicide missions for the units involved.
It wasn't until 4th war that the AFFS and LCAF figured out how to move a large number of troops and keep them properly supported, by working out the kinks in their wargames operations Galahad and Thor.
Battletech militaries typically didn't skip worlds because of the worry of being attacked from behind and having your forces cut off from retreat or support. The Clans started skipping ahead to more important worlds during the invasion though, but I think this was more to keep the spheroids from relocating key industries before they arrived.
Agree with assumption that its better to jump into systems that have a habitable planet than one that does not. Not all jumpships are military-owned, so the ones that aren't won't be taking more risk than needed. Secret raids deep into enemy territory would need military-owned craft, most of which were lost in the first two wars, further limiting ability to carry out such attacks. Deep periphery and exploration would need to use uninhabited systems out of necessity and be taking a risk most commercial craft operating in house-space would not need to take. Even still, the FedSuns and Commonwealth did serious damage to their economies by subjecting so much commercial transport to use in the war effort. Jumpship operators probably paid handsomely, but weren't about to jump all the way to Sian without a means to get back to safe territory once their sails recharged if things went badly.
Taking the 1-2 jump border worlds into consideration though, you then prioritize by military usefulness. Objective Raids even splits the book into border sections and core sections on the assumption that factories on border worlds might be attacked, while the core worlds are generally safe.
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Requiem
07/31/20 06:53 PM
1.158.133.26
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The idea of placing factories underground met with the fact that during wars, there tends to be a lack, or hold, on using materials like concrete, or in this case Ferrocrete. This limits how you can do anything like underground building.
Disagree, First Historically ….
…..
2650 – Council Edict of 2650 – limiting the size of military forces that governments and private families could muster.
The End of the Good Times and the Realization the SL Is shifting to a benevolent Government to a Totalitarian – The SLDF is shifting from a peace keeping police force to an occupation force ……
…
Just as per Rome a series of weak and ineffective leakers brought down the Empire …..
…..
Jonathan Cameron –
Paranoid …. Mental problems that required his sister (Mother Jocasta Cameron) to assist him running the inner sphere ….
He allowed the second Hidden war start and to progress to many worlds contravening the SLDF He had his Commander of the Star League executed …. Ikolor Fredasa
He then replaced him with political General …. Rebecca Retlanral …. And then when she retired due to ill health he appointed a second political General … Aleksandr Kerensky (who’s highest rank in the field was Captain …. Never had command of Division / Corp / Army … never sat of the Joint Chief of Staff …. Etc
…..
Simon Cameron – weak and ineffective - he totally lost control of the SL – third hidden war … and as such was assassinated….
……
Leaving his 8 year son to be brought up by Aleksandr Kerensky who believed to apocalyptic dreams of Jonathan Cameron to get the top Job ….
…….
As from when Amaris declared that he was Emperor
……
The writing was on the wall for those to see – the House Lords would make a play at the end of this war to either take the top job by force or finally get out of the SL once and for all …. The House Lords had been biding their time since the council Edit of 2650 ….
…..
Second, Technologically …..
….
It took the SL 30 years to place a HPG on every world within the IS ….. the industrial might of the SL is beyond comprehension ….
….
Third, Military Loss Depletion Reports / Strategies / Tactics
Massive military computers must have been used to work out how to win the war …….Nuclear Weapons …. And they must have been acted upon …. The massive stockpiles of these weapons required for the First Succession war…. The Basic principles of M.A.D. !!!!!!
….
If you are stockpiling these weapons then you MUST take contingencies to ensure the continuation of your society and your military by placing them underground / under the water etc. to ensure a second / third strike is achievable ….
Even if you leave it to the last minute it still would have been possible …. During the War ….. there is still time to get as much as possible into a safety …. The engineering might of each individual Houses is staggering when you take into account how quickly the Navy of every house was increased in such a very short period of time …..
Then why would the SL go to the expense of building Hesperus II? Joint SL / LC – “To protect the factories from assault or sabotage, workers spent ten years hollowing out one of the Myoo Mountains of the South Whitman continent with the factories built inside.”
The writing is on the wall !!!!!!!
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the idea of being 'cheap' by making the buildings only strong enough to work happened
Really?
There are building standards and there are inspectors ….. only on those worlds that have no common sense whatsoever ….
Have a look at the background of every picture from the Star League era the buildings are architectural marvels …. Hence they have a very strong building fame etc …. Sorry I have never found any evidence that during the SL era this occurred!
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The lack of equipment like the Planetlifter didn't allow fast redeployment of your forces to cover things.
Behemoth / Mammoth Dropships?
How about the tractors used to move Union Dropships as per the cover of the second Federated Suns Sourcebook?
The equipment is there to move anything !!!!!
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Using inhabited systems for jumps is done to help avoid losing ships due to break down.
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some worlds become essential to take and hold, as they provide access to other systems. The need to have as few jumps to a system is very necessary. Each jump holds the chance of losing not only the jumpship, but everything attached to it.
Then why did Kurita use this tactic in the war of 3039 with such a vast armada?
The ability to use hidden routes becomes the same as that as using a regular logistics route within the IS – the chance of a miss jump is the same !!!!
The destination is irrelevant …. Either way hidden route / normal route if there is a miss-jump there is no way you are going to arrive …. Except when it is a time jump … and you arrive a couple hundred years in the future !!!!!
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you don't have the resources to build what you have, taking another factory puts more strain on your lack of resources.
Again this is from the point of view as from 30235 …. Not the SL era ……..
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The war is not about land grabs as implied.
So we are going back to 18th Century military dictums?
Did we learn nothing from WW2 Strategic Bombing / the use of Submarines in sinking merchant shipping?
With a force where you only have limited number of resources you have to become more strategic in your use of forces to achieve the win !!!!! This can only be achieved by denying your enemy access to their military industrial complexes !!!!!
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Try and buy it from another nation isn't likely to happen.
4th Succession war mutual defense agreements - FS + LC and FWL + CC + DC - both signed with ComStar Witnesses.
Thus buying is the only way to keep your ally in the game or do you want the CC to Fall and have the FC on the border of the FWL next?
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Attacking only worlds with heavy industry is a flawed concept. The enemy will heavily fortify those worlds, once they see you are not interested in anything else, as well as rig those factories to be destroyed if you do.
As stated – every planet with military industrial facilities is a FIRST STRIKE TARGET thus they will not see it coming, thus they will have to redeploy forces from other locations or risk loosing everything ….
Second – It is against the rules of war - that all sides obey - to destroy these facilities – BattleMech Factories (etc.) are not to damaged etc.
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5 jumps from one secured world to another thru unsecured systems tends to have your forces hit time and time again.
Except if you are Clan that is ….. tyranny of distance with regards to Logistics is not included in the game cira 3025 onwards ….
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And loyalty of your dukes and such is another issue. You can send in your best forces to take out enemy worlds, but they don't want you to control it. They want full control over it. So they sabotage your plans.
And this occurs 100% of the time?
War of 3039 case in point – the canon version is laughable
CC should be dead by 3040 onwards
All I can say is I am glad I am writing my own game world – the idea of a 3rd Star League 3250 ruled by an ilKhan disgusts me !!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/31/20 07:01 PM
1.158.133.26
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Why deep assaults in early wars and border raids by 3rd war? Supply lines. With many of the Jumpships, transports , and recharge stations destroyed in the first two wars, nobody really had the means to repeatedly drive deep into enemy territory.
Can I ask when is that the IS returns to the pre-technological level of the SL?
This excuse cannot go on forever!
When is that the IS Houses have the expertise and the industry to act in a similar manner as their forefathers did during the SL era?
What about the voyage to Huntress? Canon war of 3039 – Ghost Units?
If it was so onerous why complete such a long distance with such a vast armada?
Sorry but I find this idea to be lacking when there are so many cases as to when it was violated and won the day.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/20 09:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is nothing historical about the response that says nothing about having a lack of supplies to build underground facilities. It was not said there wasn't a reason or even being smart to do so, it said they were limited in supplies they could get to do so. As military factories are NOT run by military or government, they are civilian facilities. Even the SLDF were civilian facilities. They may or probably had military advisors, but they were not owned by the government.
Now explain why the factory owners didn't put the facilities underground before the whole war. Costs. They did not want to pay for the entire operation to do so. Most paid the costs when bombed to oblivion. So again, not going to the root of the problem, just complaining about the end results.
You think the outer coverings of a building are structurally secured? They are window dressing. Most, if any, are holding up the building. You put decorations up after the main building is done. And don't think that buildings going up today are structurally sound around the world. There are many corners that are cut to reduce the costs of buildings, and that is in direct opposition of the laws. Most don't go as far as halving the materials used, but reducing it by even 15 percent is done. The entire border wall the president of the U.S is building, is a fine example of this. Pushing thru the pipeline made by a company with a history of leaking oil lines is yet another. In the future, it is not likely to change.
Do some research before posting. The Behemoth can NOT land on a world. So using it, or even the Mammoth to move troops from say England to Germany isn't going to happen. So you are NOT going to have a timely movement of units if the garrison of Germany is failing to stop an enemy. Even if there was a land connection, you would not get the forces there within an hour.
And loading up equipment and unloading it takes time, especially when the carrier is NOT set up to move them.
Maybe sitting down and looking over the costs of all that stuff, then seeing if a budget would really allow you to have all that stuff sitting around. And that is assuming it is on the market to be sold. Raids are meant to destroy equipment, so try rebuilding after a few raids in a year.
You do understand that the DC was that desperate in the 3039 war to even attempt it. They also had Comstar help, which meant updated maps as well as possible Comstar ships in place? The fact that the units used were not known to the FC, so even if they were seen, it would be ignored for the most part.
Still don't understand that having repair facilities in inhabited systems reduces the loss of a misjump? You could well die of starvation or oxygen deprivation before another jumpship comes along when in an unihabited system. The lack of parts is another big thing. And no. Not every ship is fully decked out with parts and supplies. Having quick responses to a problem saves ships.
The SL was having issues with resources like ores. That is why the TH even suggested the SL. Your love for quoting history seems to fail when it is convenient for you. By your concepts, the SL should have seized the entire IS after the first border wars that happened, as they had the forces to do so, and it would have prevented future issues. SO why didn't that happen?
How is the fact not all wars are land grabs, and the response part of the same thing? Apples and oranges? The idea is to ransom back worlds to the original owners, as you know you can take it again and force more concessions out of them. Simple trading of worlds is common. The headache of taking and holding worlds is a strain on your wallet as well as your forces. Your own statement of needing millions of soldiers to stop billions of civilians from rebelling comes to mind here.
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ghostrider
07/31/20 09:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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You destroy the military complexes, but take only the lands that do you the most good. Might be hard to understand, but there are more then a few times where not taking the factory world is better then taking it. You need food, well hit your neighbor and force them to send some, by ransoming their factories back to them. No one said they had to work right, just trade it back to them. Extra work on them, like remote controls or even a new access way is possible as well. But then the only reason to go to war is to take over the enemy's problems.
How well did the mutual defense pacts work for the FWL and CC? Marik did very little to even help the CC, and with Hanse's spies, the entire FWL was pretty well tied up in political arguments. And mutual defense isn't what the FC did. They went out to remove threats as best they could. The FS was a land grab for the most part. It was covered by the illusion of doing it to prevent the madness of Liao from happening again. And with that thought, both the FC and FWL left the CC in place to avoid the extended border between the two. The CC was a buffer zone for them. Something that alludes your concepts.
Either side could deal with the CC, but having it there so the enemy has to chew thru them, gives you some time to ready your own forces.
The enemy will not see the FIRST STRIKE being against their factories? Should I say how bad that statement really is?
It is illegal to destroy those factories, and you really think the enemy will not destroy yours? Illegal only happens if there is an actual punishment that goes with the crimes. And that is not saying making sure the enemy has to pay dearly to get it operating again, yet not destroying it is a legal dodge to that. Even land mines around it so the enemy loses skilled people to even try to work on it is legal. The succession wars is a statement of what is legal and what wasn't.
So the idea of having supplies constantly hit, doesn't make you see why the front line concept was adopted? Using the few resources you have to guard what you still have makes you scale back things like sending suicide missions to attack the enemy's capital. The idea of hitting supplies is still there. The issue with the clans was the warships to begin with, then the fact that one on one, clan dropships tended to be better. This is not including what systems or when the supplies were being moved.
Simple concept that doesn't really follow logic. The advance of things like massive fleets and upgraded technology will destroy the game. The whole thing with the DC destroying the FS with the orbital bombardment should show you this. It will turn into he who has the warships and resources, wins. Simply blowing worlds back to the stone age, then moving on is a very valid tactic. Part of nuking them. I don't agree with it, but that is where the game would go.
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Requiem
08/01/20 04:04 AM
1.158.133.26
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they were limited in supplies they could get to do so. As military factories are NOT run by military or government, they are civilian facilities.
Why place a multy-billion C-bill facility underground from the get go ……
Consider who the King of the Battlefield is, Warships, then consider the damage an orbital bombardments, can inflict … then there is the issue with regards to the availability of nuclear devices in the Star League era, nearing the end of the Cameron dynasty there were a couple of near misses and one that started the Fed Suns / CC border war ….. retaining a massive military facility upon the surface is not a wise move … especially when you consider the ability to manufacture Fortress Brians have become a common occurrence ….
In order to get around the Council Edict of 2650 – Then there is the issue of Territory states (Periphery) and Houses – and the issue of the Third Hidden War – The Pirate War
Then there is the issue of how the Amaris / Rim Worlds were able to create 500+ Regiments without the SL or the SLDF finding out …. Especially when the majority of the time post reunification war every Territory (Periphery realm) has been assigned an Administrator and all of their world have a massive SLDF Garrison on them.
Where did all these pirate units get their military advanced hardware if one of the remits of the SLDF is enforcing the non proliferation of military weapons?
So, how do state sanctioned pirates get their weapons if the SLDF is counting every weapon coming of the assembly line?
Also how many SL era facilities found in 3025+ were found underground or under the sea etc …. All of them?
So why? Risk minimization and security … not only from the naval weapons but also from the SLDF, pirates etc
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You think the outer coverings of a building are structurally secured?
Have a look at the picture of the cities within the books – their size and scope.
They are structurally sound.
It is only periphery circa 2900’s onwards when you start to see issues ….
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The Behemoth can NOT land on a world. So using it, or even the Mammoth to move troops from say England to Germany isn't going to happen.
And yet moving from Terra to any other planet within the IS, with vast amount of industrial equipment, what then?
As for planet hopping how about a Cargo-King or Cargo-master (if they were ever able to get them up and running)?
As for the fast transport of military units – this is why a ready reaction group is held in reserve and why radar etc can track their landing. Movement can then take place to intercept the attacking force.
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You do understand that the DC was that desperate in the 3039 war to even attempt it.
And Hanse Davion was not desperate at the start of the 4th Succession War? OR any other character engaged in war?
It is not a matter of desperation … it is about what can and cannot be done …. And utilizing a hidden route to a target world is very much achievable once you have all the coordinates … the risk is the same as that as travelling on a normal route for a normal jump.
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Still don't understand that having repair facilities in inhabited systems reduces the loss of a misjump?
What happens in a miss-jump? Distance, location (navigation) and time errors ….wrecked in the process … or just disappears forever ….
Who can fix a Jump-ship ? …. Naval-Yard, and how many of these are within the IS? So local worlds will offer little help other than ringing for tow truck ….
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Having quick responses to a problem saves ships.
If there is that kind or a problem there will never be anyone close enough to help …. Even a recharging station will not be close enough.
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The SL was having issues with resources like ores. That is why the TH even suggested the SL.
When there are 1,000 hidden worlds to every known world the issue of scarce resources becomes difficult to believe.
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By your concepts, the SL should have seized the entire IS after the first border wars that happened, as they had the forces to do so
Keep reading …..the massive build up required time from 2571 onwards ….
Joseph Cameron First Lord of the Star League …
and then by 2646 General Kinnol had “the SLDF had doubled in size”.
And Ikolor Fredasa …. e also became known as "The Father of the Military Renaissance," though in truth he only continued the process of introducing new technology that was already in place
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ransom back worlds
Why? … when land is taken it is held until it is lost in combat …. Are there any examples of this occurring?
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The FS was a land grab for the most part
How lond would the CC last if their military are unable to maintain consumables or spare parts?
With the military becoming ineffective the entire CC is open season for one big land grab.
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The CC was a buffer zone for them. Something that alludes your concepts
By the end of the 4th Succession war – only one quarter and that was only covering the Duchy of Andurien – so what was the point by 3039 of having a buffer zone at the back of the realm along the periphery border?
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It is illegal to destroy those factories, and you really think the enemy will not destroy yours?
Morgan Hasek-Davion – Cripple Kathil’s shipyards by not damaging the shipyards …. Even the CC honored the law of not damaging these facilities ….
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the idea of having supplies constantly hit
How often did this occur? …. This is the reason why secret supply bases were established!
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The idea of hitting supplies is still there. The issue with the clans was the warships to begin with, then the fact that one on one, clan dropships tended to be better. This is not including what systems or when the supplies were being moved.
The issue regarding tyranny of distance / Supply Bases and resupply numbers was and still is a non entity within the game – it only pops up if and when someone wants it to ….. on the whole for the entire clan invasion it did not exist!
Where is real issue with regards to logistics and resupply … and the issue of sibko numbers was completely left in the dark – the invasion was as if the Clans were at 100% resupply and 100% reinforcement for every battle!
The entire clan invasion as written is a extremely poorly written ….
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Simple concept that doesn't really follow logic. The advance of things like massive fleets and upgraded technology will destroy the game.
Problem is that in the SL era they exist and the tile of the post involves the SLDF
Thus there must be massive Naval Battles – remember when Kerensky when into take Terra – Operation Liberation – he went in with over 1,000 ships and came out with less than 300 …
The size and speed by which a navy could be manufactured in the SL era is incredible – how long did it take Amaris to make his 400 odd ships?
In all reality once the clans arrive and the IS begins manufacturing on a total war footing – ten years in to the clan war the House should have multiple fleets in the hundreds considering the speed they were produced in the SL era.
This entire game is not about big robots anymore with the arrival of the Clans and SL technology …. the Warship must take back its rightful spot as the king of the battlefield. !!!!
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the whole thing with the DC destroying the FS with the orbital bombardment should show you this. It will turn into he who has the warships and resources, wins.
Then why let it happen in the first place?
Once this has occurred every house will now be engaged into a war to see who can make the most warships – ie we are now in a post Dreadnaught era once again !!!!!
So once more, with the introduction of warships, the entire games philosophy shifts to who has the largest most lethal navy …. Mud-lovers, MechWarriors, no longer factor into the big scheme of things ….
So unless everyone doesn’t have them or everyone has them …. Choose!
Just remember that in a SL era the amount that can be produced is vast and in a short period of time …. So once the IS is once more SL technology compatible they too are able to produce them in vast numbers and in hidden locations !!!
The IS sea is vast beyond imagining and a single outpost producing vast number of ships is but a speck of sand within that sea !!!!
In all reality the government of ever House should have begun establishing secret bases as from the Reunification War / Edict of 2650 onwards … and that should have progresses throughout the entire history of the IS – yes there are known worlds were civilians thrive …. But there too must be0 hidden military defending their realm from the shadows – this is the truth behind empires in space and three dimensional warfare !!!
The hidden dagger is always the most dangerous. !!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 11:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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Using warships has major impact issues on a world. The game doesn't go into it, but do use that much firepower would cause large clouds of dirt and crap in the air. How long this takes to dissipate and settle? I really don't know, but it is a health issue while up.
Also, the chance of a mis aimed shot going off course and taking out civilians reduces the use of such weapons.
Now you are missing the point of location of factories. They were left above ground as the SLDF, was around, so someone attacking these facilities would be punished, and the owners would probably get paid to rebuild them. Now using your history, how many factories did Germany have underground verses how many were above ground during the wars? That should give you a little more idea of the numbers of the SL, but with more above ground as peace was prevalent.
Maybe the administrator in the RWR was bribed well, and ignored how many were built. The pirates got their weapons from the same place the regular military did. House factories. One question that needs answering before the question of the pirates getting equipment is, how do mercenaries of the time get weapons?
The black market exists in all time periods, so stealing is one way.
Moving items and moving working units isn't quite the same thing. Mechs and vehicles can not be pulled apart, then put back together again in a speedy method. Even with that, loading them onto a ship is time consuming.
The idea of having a reactionary force would be great if you had the resources. Most didn't, as they were raided and other things that needed to be built or repaired comes up. A simple dam that is destroyed costs more then a little money, yet you need it to prevent flooding down stream from it, as well as keep water reserves. So do you ignore that, in order to buy says a company of units?
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ghostrider
08/01/20 12:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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Using non standard jump routes isn't that rare. More then a few raids use them, in order to achieve the surprise it was meant to, much like pirate points are.
The DC was more desperate, as they knew that they would not be able to hold back the FC strikes on a defensive war. They needed to strike at FC holdings. And that is what they did. The issue with using standard jump points is the fleets the FC would have with their invasion.
A miss jump can also be having equipment failure that destroys the ability of the jumpship to jump again, even if it is in the target system.
More then a few systems do have some emergency facilities near jump points that can work on ships. The Olympus Station (I believe) even says they can fit part of a large jumpship in it's bay to work on it. And there are tugs to help with this, as the Octopus was a militarized one, but the books never really went over having normal tugs.
How would the response teams at a jump point never be able to respond fast enough to help ships? Simple hull tears that will vent all air, but take 3 days would be an example. The repair ship would get there and start fixing the issue, as well as have back up air reserves to keep the ship going while being repaired. Something that is not possible in an uninhabited system without any sort of facilities. Station keeping thrusters malfunctioning is another common issue that would cause the death of a ship. It would be the last couple of ships in a convoy jumping out that would be in the most danger to things like this.
Try mining on Jupiter. Or maybe something that has a toxic atmosphere that kills even when inside. There are a slew of other things that prevent mining on some worlds. Even with the best protection, Quasars, Pulsars, and such make it impossible to stay in that system for very long. So yes. there is a lot of material in the galaxy that is there, just accessing it is the issue. Some world will not have certain materials, while others will have an abundance of them.
Still didn't answer the question of why the SL didn't just seize the houses. Start pushing out and 'holding protected worlds' for the start. If the SL had done like the RoTS, it is possible the pirate wars would not have happened, as the limited borders would cause a large buildup of SLDF forces to be in those areas.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 12:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are several examples of such things as ransoming back worlds. The entire history of the succession wars has examples of this. Trading worlds for resources or access to those resources has been done. Even the 4th war books suggests that worlds would change hands back to the original owners in order to get the borders in order.
Counter invasions tend to have this focus after then 3rd war. You have the books, it does seem like you never really read them.
And yet you fail to read where Hanse said that leaving the CC alive would help stall the FWL from hitting the FC. He also had to start dealing with the DC, as their focus on the Dragoons was starting to happen, and they were expanding their operations to more then a few worlds. Leaving the CC in place allows him to use them to train troops as well. Raids would allow combat experience with a lesser risk to his forces. Send in a regiment and take your time to get troops trained. You know you are pretty safe, as the CC will NOT be able to shift forces around to strike at you with a large force.
Still not getting the idea that the FS could remove some forces from those areas that were near the CC to be used elsewhere? Or shifted to cover the TC border a little better? SO many regiments and yet so much more land to cover. For the most part, a single company isn't enough to protect a world. It is hoped that they will slow the enemies advance long enough for offworld reinforcements to get there. Part of why militia and such are there. 200 plus regiments guarding how many hundreds to thousands of worlds and facilities along their borders, yet this isn't even talking of internal worlds. The size of the FC's forces isn't really as big as you would think. Suicide or even skilled raids would devastate the FC if you massed those forces to attack a neighbor. The all or nothing attitude is why this doesn't register.
Raids happened quite often and were focused on removing the enemies ability to strike at you. It may be ammo dumps or water purifiers. Costing the enemy funds and time is where most raids were done. Staging areas that weren't well defended were big strikes.
And there were secret supply bases established. Part of how units kept in combat form without more supplies coming in. But the secret bases become liabilities when found. Now you have to defend those places as well, least the enemy start hiding forces there to strike back at you. It isn't like you will be building many in the enemy's territory. And the lose of the equipment there when the enemy strikes it, telling you, it isn't a secret anymore. A secret base can not have multiple regiments of units guarding it either, as the more forces you have there, the easier it is to find it.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans did have some reserves for their war. Even hitting other clans for warriors happened. So for a while, they did have the replacements. Now the issue is if they were near the IS, or stayed at home until needed is the question.
And the fact that hitting supplies as well as other things only comes to the forefront when it is part of the story is true for all games and novels. This is also true of things like the jump detection concept. Only when it was required to see an incoming jumpship did that come about.
I will admit that warships should have remained dead. I said that before. Bringing them back, changes the entire scope and focus of the game. Much like a few other things, the developers didn't seem to think this thru when they did so. The expense issue is bs. The only thing that might slow down warships is the lack of manufacturers that can produce the engines for them, and eventually, that would become a non issue.
And what makes you think there aren't thousands of hidden bases and such in the game? Because they didn't list them all? The developers need room to come up with new things, and hidden facilities gives them an out there.
But the idea that all or no one has something does NOT follow the actual truth of war. Most wars has it so one side has a better weapon that they are using to go to war with, or developed to defend against someone, and that someone is hitting them to make sure it isn't finished.
The A-bomb starts off this concept. The Star Wars initiative that destroys incoming nukes is another big one. The fact that not all nations have nukes is yet another example of not all having something. Hell, some nations can't build their own tanks. So the complaint of all or no one is moot. It has been throughout history that one side had something the other didn't. It could well be nothing more then more troops.
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Requiem
08/01/20 09:39 PM
1.158.133.26
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Using warships has major impact issues on a world. The game doesn't go into it,
And yet what about every...
Note in History; every House / SLDF / Clan etc TO&E entry / Novel etc.;
Naval engagement orbital bombardment that affect history …. Turtle Bay ….. Palmyra Disaster ….
The game has reincluded warships.
Time to face facts, BattleMechs have lost their position on the Battle field to Warships and Mass Aero-space fighter attacks with bombs / missile attacks from orbit …….so unless every warship and the majority of every aerospace fighters form every House / Clan is killed off within the IS, BattleMechs are no longer that important in the scheme of things ……
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mis aimed shot going off course and taking out civilians reduces the use of such weapons.
How do you miss a city or a unit on the ground when you are in orbit using a warship sensors are required to target a extreme ranges ?
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They were left above ground as the SLDF, was around ….
That is the point ….the SLDF are around ….
1st Defiance Industries – was placed underground …..how many other’s written in the books are also underground? How many within the archives that were destroyed during Amaris era / 1st and 2nd Succession war were underground …… many of them - it's not an absolute that every-one was above ground !!!
2nd How do you hide your hidden weapons manufactory facilities to get around the Council Edict of 2650 – The SLDF remit in the non-proliferation of weapons…..Please explain how all the House pirate forces obtained their Mechs in the First Hidden War if not through illegal weapons factories …. As SLDF will have inspection / quota rights as to the number of weapons each military industrial complex is allowed to manufacture / year …. It is part of their remit !!!!!
3rd Rim Worlds – they had a SLDF Army encamped on the majority of their worlds and a SL Administrator who can override the Rim Worlds Governments Decision at any time if it is not in the interest of the SL ….. how did they build their 6-700 Regiment Army if not utilizing hidden bases …. Remember the SLDF ships patrol the deep periphery, and any signal detected will mean they are discovered. Thus (QED) they must be underground to prevent any signal being transmitted to give away their position.
Thus underground hidden facilities must exist and in mass numbers …..
4th How difficult is it to build a factory into a castle Brian facility ? Thus making it possible to survive multiple nuclear attacks.
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how many factories did Germany have underground verses how many were above ground during the wars?
Many …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelwerk
And many others, for example …..https://wartraveller.com/ww2-location/rabstein-a-complex-of-underground-factories/
So yes, it does provide evidence that during the SL era there should have been hundreds of them established witin each House and thousands throughout the Deep Periphery ….
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Maybe the administrator in the RWR was bribed well …
The Council Edict of 2650 was in direct response to the Rim Worlds Administrator informing the Grand Council that Tadeo Amaris (Regent of the Rim Worlds), over a three month period, the Rim Worlds had increased their military above that as stipulated by the law …. <That they purchased in secret from the Draconis Combine.>
Thus the question has to be asked as to how the DC manufactured these weapons for the RW if the SLDF can review production numbers …. Ie they had to build these for the Rim Worlds in Secret - thus secret manufacturing sites …. and how do you hide a secret BattleMech Manufacturing site if not being underground?
Plus, there is no evidence whatsoever that an Administrator was ever bribed!
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The pirates got their weapons from the same place the regular military did
Really? …. After the first couple of times the SLDF would place a unit as a Garrison to every major BattleMech Manufacturing site. ….. SLDF Remit ….non-proliferation of weapons and they ae allowed to put a base on any world they want even capitol worlds !!!! Where as noted above they usually placed a Navy space station and a fleet of naval ships to remind each House Lord who was really in charge.
So unless there are secret facilities the pirates were only able to steel them, yes I agree, from private holders, army units etc. ….. However, how often will anyone believe the same trick of theft before it gets old - most weapons must now be stored in a gun cabinet so why not a ‘Mech Vault to stop thieves?
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Using non standard jump routes isn't that rare. More than a few raids use them, in order to achieve the surprise it was meant to, much like pirate points are.
If one unit can use non-standard / hidden jump points, then every-one can – they just need the coordinated to do so, and even then computers can work them out in advance - how else did the first colonists find worlds in the first place if not by using computers to find non-standard jump points to find their new home colony.
If it can be completed so many hundreds of years in the past it can be achieved in the future – this is the point, Space is not a two dimensional area – it is a three dimensional area and should be treated as such !!!!
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More then a few systems do have some emergency facilities near jump points that can work on ships.
How many tug drop-ships are out there and how many stations have the ability to fix Jump-ships ? …… very few in 3025 era …. In the SL era vast numbers.
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How would the response teams at a jump point never be able to respond fast enough to help ships?
Small problems the crew of the Jump-ship can fix.
If the problem is large enough that it requires outside help – either it is a major engineering problem and they are out of power / life support / radio etc in all likelihood you are down to minutes / hours to live.
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Still didn't answer the question of why the SL didn't just seize the houses. Start pushing out and 'holding protected worlds' for the start.
Formed via Treaties with noble actions …… over time this devolved into a force of occupation and a dictatorial regime ruled by Caesar and his legions rather than as a UN where everyone has a say in how things are done.
This is why no one would assist Kerensky in the Amaris War – all the rulers wanted the Star League to fall or to become the next Caesar ……
This is why the second fell and why the third is doomed to fall from the start …. Unless everyone is treated as equals and there are no superior groups over others sooner or later people will revolt and topple the government that holds them down …. It is inevitable …. This is why the Clans can never create a Star League except via force …. And over time they too will be toppled from within because they refuse to learn from histories mistakes.
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If the SL had done like the RoTS, it is possible the pirate wars would not have happened
Disagree … every House and Periphery state would have formed militaries in secret and attacked …. It is just a question of time …. A SL government that is not for all the people will not stand.
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There are several examples of such things as ransoming back worlds. The entire history of the succession wars has examples of this.
Book and page number please …..
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And yet you fail to read where Hanse said that leaving the CC alive would help stall the FWL from hitting the FC.
Book and page number please …..
Why? As it is only “protecting” the lower half of the Capellan March? And also the FWL has been in utter disarray until that of the Fake Thomas Marik ? And if the CC was taken their resources become FS resources – just look at the Mech / Aerospace / Dropship / Jumpship / Warship production facilities and their GDP – as stated in the previous forum on the subject there is no justifiable reason why the CC should have survived past 3040 other than TPTB interfering with the logical development of history.
Machiavellianism 101 – when someone is on their way out you don’t leave them alone you stab them in the back as quickly as you can …. Refer Margie Thatcher as to why you never help them ….
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He also had to start dealing with the DC, as their focus on the Dragoons was starting to happen
As stated previously … CC first …. then FWL …. then DC ….. simple military doctrine refer below …..
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (7 mercenary and MAC units that should not exist due to Sarna.)
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
No matter how it is postulated the CC should no longer exist 3040 onwards …. The CC should have been completely and utterly removed from the CC with only St Ives community remaining as an example….
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removing the enemies ability to strike at you
This requires an intelligence organization to find them in the first lace … second most ammo dumps are attached to units or in transport …
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Warships
If warships are back in the game then anti warship missiles must also be in the game …. The game evolves …. The game must have multiple settings ….
1. In space;
2. In atmosphere;
3. On ground ; and
4. How each inter relate to the other.
Then it just comes down to WMDs and how they relate to the game …. in or out …. as is they are now a part of the game !!!
Logistics are a part of the game ….
speed of building new vehicles ere supposed to be a part of the game ...
Reinforcements are a part of the game… amount and time of arrival …
Statistics are a part of the game ….
Loss depletion reports are a part of the game
… where are these even in most of the games eras? Especially when it comes to the Clan’s Invasion? ... no where to be seen ... this is why the clan invasion has no real validity and why the entire history requires a massive rewrite (In my Opinion!) ... unless the game can make some degree of locical sense and is consided to be a fun to play the game it will not stand for very long - as is theis is why I need to create my own universe - the history as written is no longer fun or interesting it is dark and depressing ... and a good portion of it lacks any credibity / reality / logic to it .... where are the innocent days of the orignal books and characters ? ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 11:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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For someone that says stories need action and plots, you don't seem to want the game to have the 'villians' have weapons that force the good guys to fight against it at long odds. That is the basis for almost any action story in existence.
Really? How do you miss a target and hit something that was not the target? Taking out the military in a city, and hitting the areas that no military is in, but full of residences is what I am talking about. Even just the outskirts, you can still hit the main city.
Exactly. How many other facilities were underground? This was done to set up defiance as the LC's main strength when setting up the game. Social generals would buckle quickly under the discipline of the DC, though the FWL wasn't that bad. Still. Without defiance, the LC would be in a horrible shape before 3025. The heavy mechs would not be there. Hell, the entire economy would not be there. Just like the detonation grid, it was set up to give the LC some sort of advantage, as their disadvantage would have destroyed it long ago.
Several examples were given, though it seems you don't think any of them could be true. Supply personnel selling them to others is one such way. Another would be the SL itself sold those units to mercs, that ended up being used in situations that weren't authorized. The SL did use mercs, and with the edict, how did they even begin to get their weapons? Raiding armories and such could very well happen. The embarrassment suffered by the CO of it might just cause them to not report it, or blow up the building suggesting they were destroyed with the building. Stealing the dropship the shipment is on, or at least robbing it. No one thing would deal with it all, but combined, it gives leeway.
Who is stupid enough to broadcast that they were working in an illegal factory? There would be no transmissions at all from the facility that isn't concealed in other things. Then again, short range or laser coms would be necessary for crews to coordinate their efforts, if that is even needed. Land lines would be the proper way to talk to each other, as anything that even resembles radio waves gives you away.
You think that units do not store their units in locked areas? Some are not that secure, but it isn't like they jump out of their unit, leaving it run, while they head into 7-11 for a slurpee. Do you really think that the SLDF is any different from other armies in the history of mankind? The ones that have soldiers hating their jobs, so don't bother to count inventory correctly. Or don't want to get blamed for something missing, so they cover for it? This is beyond those that actually sell the items. EVERY military has people skimming off the top of the supplies, as well as things that drop off the truck as it leaves. The SLDF is no different from those in history.
Overruns are possible as well. SImply making one too many mechs, and hiding it can happen. For guns, it is even easier to hide.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 11:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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The security protocols in mechs are supposed to stop normal thieves. Yet it doesn't stop dedicated ones. Learning the routines of military units gives the thieves their opportunity to take the stuff. Simple walk out when the local aeroforces are elsewhere, such as training maneuvers. Even just stealing parts, to be assembled elsewhere can be done.
The issue isn't can or can't, it is do you risk it. Most don't even try, as they can not afford to lose the jumpship. Normally, only desperate people use uninhabited jump points on any sort of a regular basis. Well pirates would, which sounds odd, as they have less access to new ships then most.
Another factor missing is who even knows were to look if you go missing? Posting your route and time is just asking to be hit. So people not knowing, is a big part of why they aren't used.
Funny that it was stated earlier that the SL just put up stations to watch over the houses as they felt like it, so what do the treaties even do? It does NOT stop the SL from basically seizing things they want. And with this, it was said that the first lord could do what ever they pleased. So which is it?
Stop your bs reading or as you call it comprehensive reading and actually read what is written. The Hanse statement is in the 4th succession war books as well as mentioned in the novels. I want to say there is something in the 20 year update as well. Selective forgetfulness will not work. Or skimming the material and thinking you understand it all.
The St. Ives would not have been allowed if the CC had been destroyed. You said that yourself a while back. You would not give a child of Max Liao a chance to take up the reins of power, to reform the CC. I think that is wrong to some point. As Justin was now part of the ruling family, and their children seemed to be stable and not power mad, it seems they would stabilize the entire region.
So the intel agencies are not the all knowing as suggested? WOW! So they do not follow or learn everything before it is needed. Remember this when the argument says they do.
Well what do you know. Anti warship missiles did come into the game. They were fitted on dropships to try and counter the warships before warships were built. They only thing is they were not instantly done up when the clans came in with their warships. So the numbers had to fight superior technology. Sounds like more then a few historic wars... And something that makes a great story line. Most of this argument comes from not wanting the FS to be hurt. Well that same could be said for those that loved the CC.
Again. You want everything written out for you, but then complain when it is, as it stops creative GMs from doing anything. No matter what happens, you don't seem to be capable of being happy with the developers.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 11:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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On a side note, the thought came to mind that maybe the SL was trying to get cozy with the LC, as their economy was robust and they seemed to be able to get things that were needed. Might be why Kerensky went to LC academies as well as the building of the ship yards and Defiance.
Or just the opposite and the SL feared the LC would overshadow them with the same issues.
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Requiem
08/02/20 02:36 AM
1.158.133.26
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For someone that says stories need action and plots, you don't seem to want the game to have the 'villains' have weapons that force the good guys to fight against it at long odds.
Plot development ….
The Star League Defense Force was established with all best intentions with regards to the Inner Sphere and the Territory States, and as such could be called upon to:
• Protect civilians and Star League personnel;
• Non-proliferation of armaments technology;
• Ensure disarmament;
• Monitor disputed borders;
• Provide security across a conflict zone ;
• Monitor and observe peace processes in post conflict zone;
• Assist ex-combatants in implementing any signed peace agreements;
All in an effort to maintain peace!
This plot development goes a very long way to starting the civil war …. That will create so many more wars down throughout history …..
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exactly. How many other facilities were underground?
A good majority of all military facilities operated within the Periphery and the Houses should have for every one legal - one hidden underground … from the Reunification Wars / 2650 onwards the SL is becoming more despotic …. All sensible House Lords will begin establishing a hidden military for the day they can get out …. thus in secret every House should have been building secret facilities … how else can anyone explain the rapid increase in House Military Forces shortly after the end of the Star League / Amaris ….
Question:- Amaris’ starts using Nukes like candy and no one takes precautions for what comes next ….. ?
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The SL did use mercs
Evidence please – unit name / book and page no.
Supply personnel selling them to others - unless you have someone forging every document and pray there are no auditors counting every stock item that is ….
Raiding armories – they usually have Garrisons ….
blow up the building suggesting they were destroyed with the building. – BattleMechs / vehicles usually leave behind a bid metal corpse of a robot , so the problem is once the clean up begins what are they not going to find …..
Stealing the dropship the shipment is on …. Could work, but after a while this game will get old …. What happens if the SL changes the law and states ever transport to their new home has to go through a bonded courier controlled by the SLDF?
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Who is stupid enough to broadcast that they were working in an illegal factory?
Rim Worlds - How are you going to communicate with your manufacturing facilities …. training facilities (getting recruits from the Rim worlds to their official training facility) …. Etc in creating a massive army – pony express, this is just going to increase the time to establish the military by how many years?
Coordination between the hidden and the visible requires a degree of communication - and it is not as if communication can be completed in a simple manner.
Heavy construction facilities …. Visible training facilities …. Visible roads …. All clues to any human habitation must be scrubbed from the surface of any planet in case they give away their location …..
Training your ‘Mech units how are you going to issue orders when you can’t use any modern comms – someone standing on top of the ‘Mech and using semaphore flags?
Or have the training facilities been created in vast cavern’s underground?
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Some are not that secure, but it isn't like they jump out of their unit, leaving it run, while they head into 7-11 for a slurpee.
And they didn’t have computer override program keys to break the lock on a Mech to get it running?
Overruns are possible as well. - really? …. One good auditor and this will be found asap – especially when all equipment have counters put on them to determine productivity of the machines / people for Human Resource Management – productivity determinations. Or a security video of the production line and a computer program counting the number being produced ….
And it is very hard to hide production overrun when the product is a BattleMech … they are a little big.
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they can not afford to lose the jumpship
3025 – yes – and yet if a military unit has set up a dedicated route of resupplying a forward base it becomes the same as if it were a normal supply route – what is the difference?
SL era – no - too many produced and still corporations and groups are looking for new colonies and mineral deposits etc.on virgin worlds.
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So which is it?
As stated above, what it was initially is not what it was in the end …
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The Hanse statement is in the 4th succession war books as well as mentioned in the novels.
Where? Book and page no please
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The St. Ives would not have been allowed if the CC had been destroyed.
How good and how quick was Justin Allard in converting Candace Liao into a better person so that she defects ?
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You would not give a child of Max Liao a chance to take up the reins of power
If they used WMDs …..
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Well what do you know. Anti warship missiles did come into the game. They were fitted on dropships to try and counter the warships before warships were built.
Capitol missiles …… WMDs ….. and yet I am still not allowed to use a Kamikaze drone with a WMD on it ….
What really is a anti warship missile? A nuke attached to a aerospace fighter ….
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Well that same could be said for those that loved the CC.
And when did the FC get down to the small military as that of the CC – 18 Vs, nearly 300 and how many did the Capellan March alone Have? My bet is the Cappelan March alone could have taken on and killed off the CC if the wanted to …. By 3039
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you don't seem to be capable of being happy with the developers.
IN MY OPINION ….. the idea of battletech is very good and very creative … however ….
The story is good for the 4th Succession war etc. – thereafter it requires a major re-work – war of 3039 wrong target – the clan war lacks a massive creativity infusion, as well as understanding the limitations, put in it by the developers themselves - warships are the biggest gun on the battlefield and they must be taken out first– tyranny of distance when it comes to logistics – tyranny of replacement personnel when it comes to sibko’s – utterly do not understand the Japanese idea of Face etc. when it comes to Turtle Bay …. And then it gets worse and worse … the tactics used / ComStar riding to the rescur with a 15 year truce … and not one state utilizing this 15 years to the maximum … Jihad era onwards …..is a very bad idea ….
This is why I am creating my own reality when it comes to the History of the IS. Like D&D I play, I believe the history should be like a read your own story book … you choose the path you take to make the story your own …
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Might be why Kerensky went to LC academies as well as the building of the ship yards and Defiance.
A teenager deciding to move from Moscow Terra to the Lyran Capital of Tharkad sound more like he is running away …
Going to the most prestigious Military Academy almost guarantees promotion ….
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Might be why Kerensky went to LC academies as well as the building of the ship yards and Defiance.
With a fleet HQ and a massive space station right on top of the planet, I think they realize a sword of Damocles when they see it.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/20 12:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Yet the plot that came about had the good SL turning into a dictatorship, that finally was brought down by Amaris's ambitions. And this is not adding in when the soldiers start getting rowdy or extorting people in the areas they are assigned. The SLDF will cover up a lot of it, especially when the people have political ties.
The SL went from maintaining peace that everyone wanted, to maintaining peace as the first lord thought it should be.
Let's see. Nukes falling on the TH, and the house lords were not as concerned as they should have been. Rich executives and company owners didn't want to spend the money on making underground facilities. It is happening today, as more then a few factories in violence prone countries have not even done this. And a lot of them are owned by rich people around the world. Also, there is an issue that if someone actually captures the facility. The limited access works against the owners.
Not something that should stop smart building, but most don't want smart, as it is more expensive.
Given the level of technology, shouldn't all the factories have been automated? No need for anyone but the repairmen that fix everything. This makes keeping factories secret much easier. The less that know of it, the less someone is going to say something.
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ghostrider
08/02/20 01:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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As said above, there is on one answer that fits the question of how people get weapons of war. Other possible things would include a deserter taking their stuff and running with it, on up to multiple people doing the same in a coordinated fashion. As stated with companies making the stuff and selling it to others is another one, with it being possible they just made and overrun of parts, and sell the extra's to someone other then the SLDF.
Garrisons don't really stop raiders. It just means they bring in more equipment and men to deal with them.
Now the idea of communications would be resolved to a simple data burst. Compact orders and such into something that lasts a millisecond. The need to discuss things would need to be resolved in a blanket order using the burst. Alternate the timing of it, so no one can track the signal. And as said before, land lines do wonders for avoiding people tracing the source. And no. You do not use the local phone company to run it. You run it yourself. The idea of a long, open coms chat is where the stupid comes from.
Considering the use of a code breaker was illegal, it isn't like everyone had one. The criminals would be smart to acquire one or more. The use of it was something that would help them. So no matter how secure you make something, the only way to make sure no one else gets it, is to utterly destroy the item. Otherwise, someone will eventually get it, if they want it.
Even in the SL, ships were expensive to purchase. They did jump into unknown systems, but there is one big difference. You made sure the jump was logged, and had a time limit to when you would report back in. Using uninhabited systems was rare for going anywhere. Remember that the SL had more options then the 3025 time line. More systems were known and alive. Simple asteroid miners helped to keep ships from being lost, just by being there. Calling in for assistance, they could relay that to those that could actually do so. The Yarships comes to mind here.
The story does make Candice turn against her families ways, but it is possible she was able to hide her ambitions until the time to strike comes. But the St. Ives was a way to get the rest of the CC to convert without having to invade them all. Show the difference between the mad Liao line and hers. Without the CC, this would not be necessary. Granted, she would probably be given a world to rule, but the compact would not exist.
WMDs have little to add to the fact that you would not give a child of Max Liao the ability to strike at you. Even Candice had her moments of being devious and nasty. She had her contacts, which is how she got to kill Romana. Sun Tzu showed that the scheming part of the family did not die with Ramona.
You can use what you want in your alt. The facts of what would happen are questioned. To even being using nukes and such, would reopen the door that the succession wars had done. As said before, the thought would slowly turn into being mortally threatened with anything, including a trade embargo. And others would just use it to create fear into those around them, so they could rule.
Anti warship missiles are NOT nukes strapped to fighters. The game uses other things besides nukes, and look like they nerfed nukes to avoid them being used for everything. The actually anti warship missiles were large enough to avoid most fighters carrying them.
The use of kamikaze pilots would be foolish, as you would be destroying your ability to keep fighters around. A single wing of ships is not a guarantee of taking out a warship. In fact, with using the game rules, it is very unlikely you will do more then just damage it some. Trained pilots as well as their equipment is hard to come by. And for each that dies in their 'duty', that is one less you have for elsewhere.
As a side note, if the clans started losing warships, they would have started building more on the home worlds. They would need them to counter the losses in the IS and the attack route.
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ghostrider
08/02/20 01:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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I agree that the game needs to be redone. But it need a full reworking, as just changing a few things does not close up all the holes in the backstory. Rules being one that needs to be done before any sort of rework of the storyline can happen. Otherwise, you just continue the old holes with new writing, that ultimately fails as the holes show back up and destroy the new material.
From 3000 on past the 4th war is decent, but is based on things that are impossible to correct with just a retcon. I agree with the person that said the FC was a bad idea for the game. The scramble to fix that thru the game into a bad spin, that is hasn't recovered from.
But starting with before the SL is needed. Then the SL with all of the number issues as well as placement of things. As said, the idea of SL units being superior to 3025 doesn't pan out. Unless using the advanced tech, which for some reason seemed very limited, there is nothing special about them.
Timing is the key with the Sword example. The factories and shipyards were build before the SL began the dictatorship phase. And with that, the merchants were probably happy, as they would be making more money faster. With the SL being there, it also gave the impression of a secured area, so things like having to put factories underground was not even thought of. The use of nukes was banned, and Amaris was the first one in a long while to use even one. So the illusion of safety comes into effect here.
But another thing with the LC build up, may well be because of the RWR build up issue. As stated, it was reported that they had more units then allowed before Stephan took over. So building up a secured line to deal with them would have been smart.
Using Camelot Command as the base would have exposed it.
And Cray. You can take back over.
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Requiem
08/02/20 09:08 PM
1.158.133.26
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When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will!
President Lincoln
House Lords,
Preserving their power (not being conquered by your neighbor) requires preserving the nation’s military, the nation’s infrastructure, the nation’s economy and the nation’s people …
Allowing a situation where M.A.D. through the mass use of WMDs is completely pointless exercise - as stated previously if you destroy your enemy’s infrastructure at the same rate they are destroying yours levees nothing but ashes for the future from which your forces are expected to use for the next subsequent war ….
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king!
Proverb
In this case the one eyed ruler who initiates the realm wide program of placing the extent of their industries / people who are at risk from nuclear annihilation underground sooner than that of their neighbors will come out of the First Succession War in a position of greater technological and military position than their neighbor – thus when the second war starts they will be in a position to conquer their neighbor
It is in their self interest, if they want to become the next First Lord, to preserve their industry, their military, their economy, and their people!
This is the issue – when you look at the devastation Amaris wrought on the Terran Hegemony you are looking at the future of warfare. It is quite obvious that the Star League will become destroyed due to the complete and utter destruction of their military.
It is also obvious that mad men like that of Kurita will do whatever it takes to become next First Lord - and that means using the example of how Amaris wages war - M.A.D.
As for today – they do not have the engineering or the manpower – whereas in the Star League Era they have both.
This is the point – the situation as written, the canon version of events, describes an entire generation of incompetent Lords (government); military generals and industrial executives all failing to comprehend what Amaris has unleashed at the same time. Sorry to say but I find this to be illogical hypothesis on the same level as that of destruction of the majority Star League knowledge in the Inner Sphere by the year 3000.
On one planet yes but on all planets throughout the entire Inner Sphere – this only holds true if every world suffered a nuclear apocalypse, and at the same time!
i.e. it is impossible given the extent of the Succession Wars!
Shouldn't all the factories have been automated? - who is going to be there to make sure it is working to optimal efficiency / repair anything that breaks down plus a multitude of other tasks …
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there is on one answer that fits the question of how people get weapons of war.
Correct, however the SLDF remit remains in place – no matter how the marauder / pirate receives the weapons it is the duty of the SLDF to hunt them down – e.g. the SLDF FBI.
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Garrisons don't really stop raiders.
Garrisons’ size and access to advanced weapon systems the marauder does not have access to is what will deter them from attacking – it is not a certainty that every raid will result in advanced equipment being stolen.
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data burst
And the SLDF don’t have equipment to detect a data burst? … I find this very hard to believe.
How are the Rim World forces within the Deep Periphery (shadow Forces – Manufacturing, Training, Barracks, warehouses, etc) able to communicate with their compatriots within the Rim Words Territorial State?
1. Pony Express; or
2. Their own HPG; or
3. Black Box Technology
Data burst may work Mech-to-Mech but inter planetary?
Factories, facilities and militaries are being kept secret from the SLDF – not only the Rim World – every House and Periphery Stare would be involved in building a hidden military force – every House and Periphery State will be sending their people into the SLDF military as spies / plants (Deep cover “sleeper” agents.)
This is, in my opinion, another black hole in the game – with the Amaris’ initial strike and the ongoing war where are the spies / agents siphoning away units and technology for their Houses? I am also surprised that the CC and the DC didn’t immediately declare their independence from the Star League with the start of hostilities – declaring it a failed experiment.
In the Far future …. The Compact will not exist …. As for St Ives this is still a maybe. Give a child / grandchild of Max a nuke and yes they will be devious and nasty …. However, if they detonate it you can forget then and their decedents from ever getting near the throne for the rest of eternity.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Capital_Missile
“were developed by the Star League to defend against AeroSpace Fighters and other small craft … engineers and scientists made huge strides in missile targeting and effectiveness. These missiles were very effective at destroying small craft.”
So where are the rules for S.A.M.s – surface to air missiles during the SL age and used by the SLDF and the various – during the initial succession wars …. And when can be will this technology return ?
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Anti warship missiles are NOT nukes strapped to fighters.
One 5Kt missile warhead strike and no matter how big the ship is it is gone – the thermal energy released alone should melt to nothing a huge section of the ship – rendering its structural integrity nonexistent.
These missiles can be placed on aerospace fighters, drop-ships, Mechs etc.- variant Arrow IV
This is why the idea of warships needs to be re-evaluated – every ship needs a mix of a massive number AA batteries built in a hedgehog arrangement (an on every side) each with a different rage so that you need to go through 3 to 4 batteries that act like a umbrella.
If one fighter can kill a Battleship – this and an aerospace fighter screen is their only hope.
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The use of kamikaze pilots would be foolish, as you would be destroying your ability to keep fighters around.
One old fighter and old pilot for one warship is not foolish when you still have the ability to manufacture and train a massive number of pilots and their aerospace fighters.
This is a Japanese cultural phenomena – they revere the Samurai of the past, and as such this would include those from WW2.
This, again in my opinion, is one of the biggest holes in the game!
Just as the same as that of …. Returning SL knowledge to the Inner Sphere …reverse engineering clan tech so that the Inner Sphere can use it …. And then what about Huntress …. ?
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Trained pilots as well as their equipment is hard to come by.
Only in the 3025 era
Star League and succession wars and well as during the Clan Invasion this can no longer be considered an accurate statement.
One Missile with one 5Kt warhead and one warship killed ….
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if the clans started losing warships, they would have started building more on the home worlds.
Yes this is true …. However the industry the Clans have compared the industry the Inner Sphere can make is about 1/100 to start off with and over time with a change to full war production …. 1/1,000. The Inner Sphere’s population / technology in industries are far more numerous than that of the clans … the Inner sphere has the ability to out manufacture the clans.
Have a look at the population Clans to Inner Sphere – one world in the Inner Sphere has the same population as one Clan total – the ability of the clans to govern any large area in the Inner Sphere is non event they just do not have the capability to do so!
You cannot govern a world with just a trinary of mechs – for this is the only size per world that can be used and continue the war in the front lines – too many worlds – too many garrisons!
The Clans just do not have the population to wage a protracted war in the Inner Sphere – attrition warfare would just grind down the clans ability to wage war – the sibko cannot ever keep up with the losses they would have sustained within the Inner Sphere.
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Rules being one that needs to be done before any sort of rework of the storyline can happen.
Not only rules …
Weapons and weapon systems
Cultural identity of Houses – e.g. you have an ultra orthodox Japanese culture and you name your son Theodore? Come on …. And the Lyran – German …. Where is the tradition of adding “Von” to the name?
Then the army …. Standardization of weapons and not this hodge-podge …..
Etc. etc.
I also agree the advanced technology is lacking in the game ….
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With the SL being there, it also gave the impression of a secured area, so things like having to put factories underground was not even thought of.
Normal factories will be on the surface …. But I still contend that military must go underground …. national security must be maintained.
How many times is it written into the history that the SLDF found a terrorist group with a nuke?
Risk minimization must be maintained …. As well as getting out from under the thumb of the Star League and the SLDF.
As for Nukes and all WMDs – they must be banned from the game!
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Amaris was the first one in a long while to use even one.
Not so …. 2760 …. A nuclear weapon detonated on Demeter sparks a border war between the Capellan Confederation and Federated Suns.
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the LC build up, may well be because of the RWR build up issue
Unfortunately the LC only knows of the build-up of legitimate military units not those hidden in the deep periphery.
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it was reported that they had more units then allowed before Stephan took over.
They were all exploiting the holes in the council edict of 2650 … all houses and periphery reals were doing it ….
Stephan was so ineffective at using the SLDF he ended up with a shoot everything that does not identify itself rule ….
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Using Camelot Command as the base would have exposed it.
Camelot proves the point that hidden bases works – and everyone should have them!
The idea they do not exist or are in small numbers just doest hold water when you really begin to dig deep in history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/20 09:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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So how much time was there between the end of the Amaris war, and the start of the 1st succession war? Not enough time to move facilities underground.
As the concept of borders was destroyed in the first war, so to was the idea that factories behind the lines, such as on capital worlds, were not safe. By that time, it was too late.
A data burst is something that last milliseconds. If you are looking for it, you might get lucky and have one that is a full second. It is not like someone chatting on a phone about what they were going to do this weekend. Done right, it is also hidden in another carrier wave, such as a radio stations, or even the GPS/time.
Missile technology died compare to what happened in the real world. This subject has been gone over a few times. There is nothing like a cruise missile in the game, yet the tech was there when they made the game. The entire line of targeting equipment went back to the stone age and seemed to result in iron sight shots. The only thing that approaches the real tech is the Streak tech.
The ideas of a SAM site was having a RIfleman or Archer in position to fire on flying craft. Partisan tanks were another anti air unit. Other then that, automated, or remote control systems seem to become worse then throwing rocks at the enemy.
The use of nukes is nerfed in the game. Or at least when it comes to current times. Funny how nukes were so nasty during the Amaris war as well as the succession wars. Warships are a poor concept from the get go. Trying to make something that can stand up to the pounding of a fight, yet not over powered so it is invincible. There is no real way to do this. Anti missiles systems should have been standard on all warhips, no matter what size.
But the question is, can they destroy incoming capital missiles?
If you can't keep with the game rules, then stop complaining. Nukes are NOT that powerful in the game. If your alt wants to use black hole generating warheads, then fine. Trying to say the game should use them as the ultimate power isn't going to work. Try and think about that before continuing on the fighter/nuke combo.
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ghostrider
08/02/20 10:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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The IS can out produce the clans. So the balance the developers did was give the clans advanced tech, better warriors, and deny the IS the advanced tech. The fact the clans did not take the warships and just blow away anything in space is a sore point. Their honor system isn't that good during the time of the invasion. They definitely would have used the warships to wipe out dropships and jumpships. Especially when facing mercs like the Dragoons.
The lack of understanding the invasion shows again. The clans did not expect an extended fight with the IS. They believed the IS would roll over and die at their commands. When that didn't happen, they resorted to things that were considered dishonorable, but yet nothing more then talk was done about it. Comstar was NOT supposed to have units to fight back, much less do so, as Walterly had a deal with them.
Now a question. How well would the clans have done against the FC/DC without comstar feeding them intel?
I don't think they would have been so quick to take worlds. The attrition concept would have shown up a lot sooner then it did. With this, I believe they would have turned to the warships to remove stubborn areas.
Without fixing the rules weapon standardization will not happen.
The von title may have died when Von Strang helped Amaris. Even that, the LC was not pure German. If I remember right, the Steiner line came from a Norway.
Standardizing weapons from different nations isn't that simple. Honestly the omni concept should have been done in the SL time. The overhead of having something that fits all mechs would more then make up for the cost of changing over. Even if they were permanent mounts, this would be true.
In the world today, the only underground facilities that make military weapons tends to be black ops, or secret weapon systems. Though underground does have some variants to it. Do you consider in a basement to be underground? Or does it have to be say 300 feet or more?
With the succession wars, more then a few civilian factories were pressed into service for making weapons. So there is yet another issue with everything being underground.
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ghostrider
08/02/20 10:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Sterilizing the game by removing the hate generating weapons basically destroys the real feel to it. I don't think they should be used often, and they aren't. But they are the boogieman of the game. Send out forces to remove a nuke from the hands of a madman. The developers were grasping for something to make WOB more powerful then what it was.
I would think the LC knew more about the build up then the SL did. They may well have helped by selling units to the RWR, though the DC was only mentioned because of the kidnapping.
Hidden bases exist. There are problems with it, such as only a few know anything about them, and if they are all killed, then the base dies a slow starving death if they can't farm or hunt. Trying to keep it a secret is another thing. Honestly, how many known bases were secret bases until they were found?
The succession wars were known for destroying anything they found. So secret bases may well have died in nukes and such and were never really identified as a secret base. Not secret if it is destroyed.
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Wick
08/03/20 09:23 AM
173.247.25.195
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I don't think the relative absence of "Von" as part of a surname died out with the Amaris Civil War.
1. Von Jankmon is one of Clan Jade Falcon's most powerful bloodhouses, and the Star League-in-Exile and Clan's absolute hatred of anything related to Amaris or the Rim Worlds Republic probably would have likely forced a name change here. Maybe things are different in the Inner Sphere, but if it didn't happen with the much more focused Clans then it probably didn't in the more varied opinions of the Inner Sphere.
2. Von Strang's World is still named Von Strang's World on ComStar maps well into the 31st century. ComStar could have renamed it and didn't. The Jade Falcons probably did when they conquered it but the name they chose doesn't appear to have been provided in canon. (I strongly doubt they let it stand as Von Strang's World and renamed it back to Erin or something else.)
Lyran Commonwealth was busy building up their own army and likely didn't sell all that much to the RWR. The RWR's buildup seems to have happened internally using secret factories. Sure a lot of these factories were found and destroyed, but at least a few weren't (like the Merkava plant on Vannes that went undiscovered until 2984) and rumors that more existed must have persisted to the 31st century to help explain things like Katrina Steiner's disappearance for a few years, some of Snord's Irregulars forays into former Rim Worlds space, and Gray Noton's supposedly Star League-tech Rifleman. Even if the Lyrans detected a buildup of RWR forces, they were more focused on the Combine and FWL buildups to worry much about periphery simpletons, and to the Lyrans it undoubtedly seemed clear that Stephen Amaris displayed more loyalty to the Star League's peaceful ideals than Minoru Kurita did. If Kurita launched an invasion of Lyran space, the Lyrans may have thought the Rim Worlds army could be called upon to help them, thus any buildup was a good thing in their eyes. Maybe a bit of a stretch and in hindsight certainly the wrong idea, but its a plausible explanation.
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Requiem
08/03/20 09:45 AM
1.158.133.26
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So how much time was there between the end of the Amaris war, and the start of the 1st succession war? Not enough time to move facilities underground.
Why would anyone wait so long?
Start of Amaris Civil War …………… Early 2767 …. When Amaris informs the IS he is the new Emperor …..
Start of the First Succession War …. 2786
Ans: 19 years …… more than enough time.
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As the concept of borders was destroyed in the first war, so to was the idea that factories behind the lines, such as on capital worlds, were not safe.
Problem – there is no evidence whatsoever that the majority of the capital worlds as well as the majority of many worlds within the IS that they were ever attacked ….
The only records state that during the SL era there were over 500 space stations for their SLDF fleet etc; there were over 1,000 libraries throughout the IS etc.
Then shortly thereafter they just disappear …. No record of the attack …. Nothing !!!
This is the problem …. A complete lack of information ….
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A data burst is something that last milliseconds.
So? At the height of the SL given the technology they were privy to there is a good case for a burst communication detection system.
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Missile technology died compare to what happened in the real world.
Sorry but no – SL era missiles as stated above -“ were developed by the Star League to defend against AeroSpace Fighters and other small craft … engineers and scientists made huge strides in missile targeting and effectiveness. These missiles were very effective at destroying small craft.”
This statement proves that the SLDF had ship based missiles that were capable of defending warships against Aerospace fighters – the problem is no one informed those on the team who were writing the Naval books / rules / ships etc ….
Rules please for all ship-to- fighter defensive missiles ……. Heat seekers? – once locked on they need to taken out by rear facing weapons ? Also S.A.M. s whist we are at it …..
Rifleman do not have the range to be an effective AA battery …. What is the altitude of a conventional Bomber and that of the Rifleman’s armament ?
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The use of nukes is nerfed in the game.
Problem is they are still in there ……in the rule book waiting for the next despot to use them …. What is required is a definite reason as to why they will no longer work in the game to ensure they nerfed once and for all.
As for the warships – HE missiles that can penetrate their armour and take out a section of the warship – thus 20 to 50 of these missiles to kill a ship … they really need to take a beating to kill off the ship ?
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If you can't keep with the game rules, then stop complaining. Nukes are NOT that powerful in the game.
Firecrackers are more powerful than the nukes in the game ….
The range of the explosion, their thermal discharge …. everything is wrong with them, so why call them nukes if they are not to begin with … they are just a jumped up HE variant explosive.
So, fix the name or fix the explosive …
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The IS can out produce the clans. So the balance the developers did was give the clans advanced tech, better warriors, and deny the IS the advanced tech.
Problem is …. Advanced tech, advanced warriors can be re-engineered … so in all reality there should have been parity shortly into the war … 10–15 years tops …. After that the IS should have just walked over the Clans – they do not have the population and they do not have the reinforcements (sibko)
So in all reality, the entire Clan Invasion needs a massive re-write. As is I (IN MY OPINION) find the story to be little more than a boys own adventure book from the early 1900’s …. The plot and especially all the holes within the canon story erk me to no end …. There are just far too many problems / issues with the canon story that require work ….
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The clans did not expect an extended fight with the IS. They believed the IS would roll over and die at their commands.
And another hole in the story is identified …. Quick victory equates to a lack of logistical support as well as a lack of replacement personnel – as evidenced by the extremely small fleet each Clan arrives with ….considering the tyranny of distance between the IS and that of Clan Space Logistics and replacement personnel should have been a nightmare for the Clans …and yet this point was just ignored, just like every other problem in the Clan invasion ….thus producing a story that was totally lacking in everything …..
Re write please ….
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How well would the clans have done against the FC/DC without comstar feeding them intel?
Sorry but this is not a simple answer …. As the only way that it can be answered (IN MY OPINION) is by completely throwing out the Canon story and going with something that verges on reality …
The answer comes down to how well the FC / DC can organize a force to engage them, correctly, and not the cannon dribble … the FC and the DC must have access to ALL of their forces as per the 20 year update …
A WW2 – Italian Campaign - The German prepared defensive lines – Barbara, Gustav, Bernhardt, Caesar and Rome Switch …. Where is Field Marshal Albert Kesselring?, and then the amount of forces that they can put in front on them … then how many problems they can cause in the rear .. partisans assassinations ieds etc and hunter groups to find and capture / destroy any Clan Logistics fleet at the same time …. Then there is the issue of their Warships …. Either take them asap one way or another or face massive problems …..
Then on top of that the IS must be allowed to clan tech taken off the battlefield / R&D refit packages as well as clan troops taken as POW.
Then on top of all this the IS must be allowed to add in all conventional vehicles from tanks to fighters and bombers to VTOLs … as somehow they appear to be missing for most of the Canon version ….
Finally, the IS infantry must be provided with a sniper rifle powerful enough to kill an elemental – one shot one kill …. In all reality this should have been the first anti clan weapon produced by the IS …. Armour penetrating sabot round …
Finally the ‘cheating’ has to stop … the clans must have issues with regards to their logistics and their replacement personnel (sibko) … due to attrition warfare and frankly not setting up a logistics system from word one …..
Then and only then could an accurate determination be made …. My bet the Clans will be kicked hard … duelling tactics have no place in a war of attrition …
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With this, I believe they would have turned to the warships to remove stubborn areas
If they did … they have now violated their own warrior code of how to fight …. So the rules of Nicholas Kerensky no longer apply ….
If they did how are the IS is going to retaliate …. back to nukes as this is the only weapon the IS have on hand to take out a warship! That and crashing a drop-ship full of HE explosives into the warship just like the fire-ships of old!
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the Steiner line came from a Norway.
“Katherine Steiner was a German-Scandinavian descendant”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von
Von – with Nordic countries included ….
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Honestly the omni concept should have been done in the SL time.
Considering that the BattleMech designs are become harder and harder to maintain – I agree – BattleMechs should have become Omni within the IS far earlier ….
In my opinion even within the SL era the idea of an Omni mech should have been considered as a means to reduce the cost of the SLDF ….. considering its size the cost of maintaining this military force must have been astronomical ….. it is no wonder they wanted to tax the periphery states considering their need for money !
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In the world today, the only underground facilities that make military weapons tends to be black ops, or secret weapon systems.
And again this is the problem …. When you have 1,000 hidden worlds for every 1 world known the idea of maintaining your military industrial corporations in the open, especially Jumpship / Warship manufacturing, is completely ludicrous ….the only way forward is by maintain your industries in secret less they are captured or destroyed.
It just does not make sense ….
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I would think the LC knew more about the build up then the SL did.
The DC was the realm that really hated the SL. If anyone was going to sell to the RWR it would be them.
That is why in my version of history I have aligned the DC and the RWR to take down the SL (and that also includes the Outworlds Alliance, the Tortuga Pirates, The Taurian Concordat and the Magistracy of Canopus – thus ending up with two super powers and two independents FWL and CC.) Thus 11 powers all fighting it out …. Based upon their view of what is best …. Plus getting rid of Aleksandr Kerensky and Stefan Amaris is definitely a positive ….
The DC has many reasons to hate the SL post reunification war ….
Council Edict of 2650 …. The DC had to actually decrease their standing army …. Which led to Ronin
And this then led to the First Hidden War …. And Executive Oder 34 … where by the First Lord offered the best DC Ronin commissions in the SLDF ….. thus removing them from the DCMS
Then there is the 2nd Hidden War …. The war of Davion succession … the war raged on the SLDF did nothing … then after First Lord had his SLDF commanding general executed he sent the troops in to separate the two fighting units - and declared for the Davions…. And in so doing humiliated the Kuritans and the Coordinator …..
First Lord Jonathan Cameron - believed in apocalyptic visions for Terra – he then appointed Rebecca Fetladral as the next SLDF Commanding general and he also appointed Kerensky as Commanding General – and the only way both would get the top job is if they too believed in his apocalyptic vision
So the idea that Kerensy is such a great general is in reality a sham – he is political appointee who’s highest position in the filed is either as a company or a battalion commander – as there is no way the time line could support anything higher than this – so he never commanded a Regiment or an Corp or even an Army group, he never sat of the Chiefs of staff …. It is a wonder the other officers who were passed over even tolerated him!
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Hidden bases exist. There are problems with it, such as only a few know anything about them, and if they are all killed, then the base dies a slow starving death…
I see no one put in place a succession strategy? And in addition no one has been allowed access to secret records of the previous director …. And that would mean no one actually wrote anything down … and no one knows about the logistics schedule put in place to maintain the facility …. How about replacement personnel?
Oh please, this has too many holes in it ….
The amount of people that know about secret bases is quite large – that is why you have security vetting as well as ongoing lie detector scans – investigations into personal lives / bank accounts etc by agents
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The succession wars were known for destroying anything they found. So secret bases may well have died in nukes and such and were never really identified as a secret base
Only problem with this is that the secret bases location was not so secret to begin with and they were able to penetrate the security navy / army at the base to destroy it ….. sounds a little implausible unless there is some sort of cover story that allows the enemy to know the location of the hidden base to begin with.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 12:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again, you fail to understand the power of not spending so much on factories so the executive board can pocket even more money. The only person that has to worry about damages is the owner. And even they chose the cheap way out most of the time.
Might need to reread the history of the capitals. All of them were attacked at one time or another during the first 3 succession wars. They were not nuked, but had raids hit them all. Otherwise, there would be orbital defenses still around them, which there isn't.
At the very least, space habitats and factories were destroyed around them as well.
Might need to read up on triangulation of coms signals. You need to have time to look for it from multiple angles. A simple electronic burst is very difficult to locate, and if done right, would never be at the same time for more then a few times a year, if that. And this isn't even getting into laser coms. As the only way to intercept that is to be in the beams.
If the SL had this tech, there would be NO way anyone could operate any coms without the SL knowing where it is at. They didn't. Even the Bugeyes could not find a single burst signal. Again. This is used to transmit orders, not chat about the family Christmas vacation. A good example is when Carlyle was sending orders from the jump point to his ground forces during the operations.
You do realize streak missiles are able to destroy fighters? The Barracuda (i believe) was made for that. Yet the entire missile systems of the league are nothing more then rockets, as the SRM/LRM set up didn't change from the SL. So guidance technology degraded from the missiles today. The missiles today look like they are more powerful then the game's are. The fact that even the simplelist of missiles on tanks today, can take down moving aircraft. That isn't the case in the game.
Dirty weapons will always exist in a war game. If you don't like it, then don't use it. But do not say it is the only viable solution. It isn't even close. For your game, that's fine. But to say it has to be removed from all games isn't.
Renaming a device because you don't like the fact that it is not the ultimate power doesn't work. Again, you are saying others can't use it because you don't like it. I came close to doing that same thing discussing with Retry about the CEWS borderline cloaking abilities. If you want to be able to shift in new players, or play in other games, keeping as close to canon is required. Otherwise, things become too complicated when something that works in one game, doesn't work in another, yet you are used to doing so.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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The entire backstory of the clans is the reason for their short sighted beliefs when invading the IS. The superior got to the point of their ego, where not even a god could stop them. So what would the little ant tribes knowns as house states could do to them? And yet the clans worried when the FC was born.
So given their history for a few hundred years, it is concievable on why they didn't come prepared for the reality of the invasion.
Don't like the story, then don't use it. Just don't tell everyone else that they are wrong for going along with it.
The fast victories the clans enjoyed came from intel they were given by comstar. Knowing what type of units, and all defenses the ROM could find, removed the ability to fall back and go guerilla, which is a very common tactic the IS used. Even knowing where in the system each unit was at, allowed them to hit them all without to many worries. I really think the clans would have bogged down in the first wave in the IS, and not gotten to wave 5. The fact comstar made sure news of a new invasion was kept quiet helped to prevent clan losses. The houses would definitely have hit the invaders with forces meant to deal with dropships. The warships were an issue, but had the house known just how many, and what type, the use of fighters equipped right, would have removed that threat. And no matter how skilled the clans are on the ground, they were not that much superior in space. And Overlord IIC held 45 omnis. One of them dies, that remove a big threat from the invasion. Those forces would have to come from the home worlds, and mean the next attack would be short by that many units.
So I do think with the logic, the clans would not have gotten that far before facing serious losses if comstar wasn't helping them.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 01:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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As stated in the Mongoose mech fluff. The concept of having standardized part was already being done. The crap that it was not done sooner is a sore point. I can understand the patent issues with parts being the same, but that should have been solved by buying from one manufacturer only for things like a marauder, or warhammer. Not buying from dozens of others, that each have their own parts. Much like buying a ford or chevy. The parts do not work in the other. Yet the concepts are the same.
So even without the pods, the idea that the ML in storage will fit in all units that have an ML without modifying them should have come about. It isn't like the 3025 time where you were lucky to find any spare, much less the model that was installed on your unit when it was new.
Again. How many secret facilities were found out? It may well have been most of the factories for war were hidden at one time. And now for an amazing concept. The GM is free to put in more secret facilities. So instead of having it etched in stone, you have leeway to put in more. It may well be that you find the facility that makes the Royal Guard Highlanders. So again, complaining that it isn't written, then complaining you have no leeway comes up. You want everything hidden in your game, then do so. Sooner or later it becomes known. The question is how hard is it to keep it running when it is found?
The concept of the LC knowing more about the build up wasn't for arms sales. The fact they were neighbors, and the LC intel did not have to send messages that far, nor have a slower turn around time to deal with things is why I said that. The SL intel had so many things to keep track of, unless they pulled from other areas, they were more then likely shorthanded everywhere.
Do you think it wise to let potential future leaders know where things are at? WIth that knowledge, your term as leader becomes far shorter then you think. The problems with secrets is the more that know, the less secure it really is. There is no real reason for the head of the SLDF to know WHERE the units are being made, just that they are being done and sent.
A pair of execs know that a new facility is being built, but no one else but the workers know about it. The pair die in a freak accident. That means the facility is now 'unknown' to the world. This is especially true if the workers are in a hazardous position and relied on the execs to send necessities.
This is but a small thing. Even industrial sabotage can keep a facility from being known. Agents lying about the status is yet another way.
Example. LOKI is sent out by the SL to discover the location of an RWR site. They get there and find the area destroyed. Well the record the information, then do some real searching. They find a bunker with items in it. Wil they actually report the real finding to the SL? Or just the LC? Or do the agents decide to give up the life of a spy and start using the facilites? And it doesn't have to be the scouting agents that decide to take the facilities. It could be someone up the ladder that gets the intel, and stops it from going further. Things like this help with losing things that shouldn't be lost.
You do realize that the succession wars was not about intel gathering so much as actually invading places? A simple blip on the radar might be the only indication that a secret base was found, and it would be destroyed. The soldiers didn't have to know anything but to destroy it.
A simple search of a system, or some moron making a run for a 'secured' base, ie secret, and showing the enemy it is there. They don't have any clue it wasn't known to their leaders before they blew it up.
And a scenario that makes me laugh a little, is for the players to take a secret enemy base, and set up shop. So when the enemy comes there to do something, you take out their teams quickly and wait for the next set.
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Requiem
08/03/20 09:57 PM
1.158.133.26
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Again, you fail to realize that if you leave a factory above ground, where it is very easily attacked from either orbit or via an aerospace fighter attack is strategically unsound ….
One jump-ship, arriving at a pirate point, with one Drop-ship with one fighter with one nuke in a Bomb-bay and the factory built on the surface is now a wasteland – security is more important than cost – and how are the shareholders going to receive dividends from a nuclear waste land?
This is a major issue in the game – fortresses – underground complexes – hidden complexes – even underground cities should have been included into the game.
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All of them were attacked at one time or another during the first 3 succession wars.
Which book and page no.
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Might need to read up on triangulation of coms signals. You need to have time to look for it from multiple angles.
From the point of view of 20 years ago ….not so much now and then 750 years into the future at the height of the SL technological era?
Bug-eye – “advanced equipment such as a large naval communications scanner suite, as well as a lookdown radar and hyperspectral scanner for observing locations on the ground.”
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…. there would be NO way anyone could operate any coms without the SL knowing where it is at ….
That is the point of a spy craft ….
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You do realize streak missiles are able to destroy fighters?
Range ….
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keeping as close to canon is required.
Keeping to a story line just means reading to new players the story
Changes to rules just means explaining the new rules and going through an example so that it is understood.
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Don't like the story, then don't use it.
No …. Modify it so that it finally makes a degree of sense in an Alt universe …. then run it … or create an alternate solution to bringing in new equipment
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So I do think with the logic, the clans would not have gotten that far before facing serious losses if comstar wasn't helping them.
Where in reality … there is enough hard proof to bury ComStar …. They betrayed the IS and as such FC and DC shold have privatized their stations and kicked them out …. Given the amount of secret wars the Houses have had with comstar throughout the ages it is a wonder they didn’t have a contingency for just this occasion ….
They are not untouchable ….
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The GM is free to put in more secret facilities.
Only the bad GMs
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The SL intel had so many things to keep track of, unless they pulled from other areas, they were more then likely shorthanded everywhere.
Again have a look at the size of the 20 armies and fleets – they were never short-handed.
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There is no real reason for the head of the SLDF to know WHERE the units are being made, just that they are being done and sent.
A leader like this will have a very short life expectancy …..
They know exactly what is going on and who is in charge ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/20 03:37 AM
66.74.60.165
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Now what happened to the ban on nukes? Oh yeah. It fits when you want them to, then need to be followed when they don't. The use of nuke as a main weapon was not seen in hundreds of years. There were some used, but not like the Amaris and succession wars had. And with the succession wars, people kept thinking the war would be over soon. It wasn't, but that didn't stop the factories from remaining on the surface. And being underground did not stop the factories from being neutralized. Might not be destroyed, but when the world glows in the dark, the factory is useless.
Again. Start reading what is printed, and not what you want it to say. Read the house books and you will find all the capitals have had strikes in their system. Book and page number. If you haven't read them, then your entire complaint is invalid as you do not actually know what is written.
And yet, they could not find the secret facilities around the entire space. Their automated satilites guarding the TH failed one to many times. Which lead to the creation of the Bugeyes. But even with the advanced tech, you still need time to find out where the signal is coming from. Less then half a second in a random time frame is not enough to find it quickly. Sometimes you are just lucky to even catch it went off. Something like a burst of static.
You left out the part of IF the SL had the tech. The SL did not have the spy craft that could find a single burst location. They could hack into computers that were constantly broadcasting, but not something that blips and is off line again.
Range? On ground or in space? The missiles do have some range. Yet the capital anti fighter missiles were much larger then those used in other war machines. The barracudas were pretty much standard anti air missiles of our time line. Thinking Aamrams or even something like a Phoenix missile.
Only a bad GM would put in more secret facilities? Did you really suggest that?
This runs completely counter to the idea that a GM has the ability to make changes to the game. So you are saying that if it isn't written, then a gm can't use it in their game?
So everything here is just to get an argument going, with the logic to that one.
Might really need to think before sending a response. The head of the SLDF does not need to know where the units are coming from, just that they get what is ordered and on time. The SL intel department would need to know. The SLDF would say send 20 Warhammers next week. They do not need to know if they all came from one location or dozens. As long as they get them. Military intel has more important things to do, then babysit the supply lines outside of a war.
They were busy watching the enemy and seeing if they got new toys. Then had SL intel deal with it.
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Requiem
08/04/20 09:39 AM
1.158.133.26
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Satire……
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but that didn't stop the factories from remaining on the surface …. Might not be destroyed, but when the world glows in the dark, the factory is useless.
Really ?
My factory still works and I can still get inventory off world, as long as I don’t tarry on the surface, ….plus now I have a great radiation moat ….
How‘s yours on the surface ….. a large radiated hole in the ground ….
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Read the house books and you will find all the capitals have had strikes in their system.
Still not there …..
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the creation of the Bugeyes
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bug-Eye -
“Commissioned by the HAF to replace the aging Nightwing and Tracker vessels in 2524”
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you still need time to find out where the signal is coming from
Now … yes;
750 years from now …. Not so much;
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This runs completely counter to the idea that a GM has the ability to make changes to the game.
The good GM creates everything into the universe before the game starts – once it starts there are no, let me change that moments - for good or bad it is all set in stone …. The payers and the history all run without interference once established by the GM …
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The head of the SLDF does not need to know where the units are coming from, just that they get what is ordered and on time.
Really ?
Ever had a look at the maps for Operation Neptune, Operation Pointblank, Operation Fortitude, Operation Overlord, Operation Cobera, Operation Bluecoat …..
Have a real good look, this is the level of Operational knowledge a Commander in Chief Requires ….. total understanding of every units timing, unit TO&E, debarkation point, transport, objectives, updates as to progress , etc modifications to plans as required ….
Look at the number of ships, aircraft, units etc. required, operational numbers, everything that went into the overall campaign …. Everything had to be known and understood ….
If you don’t have someone with this level of expertise you are not going to last very long against the best that are out there …
Logistics – location -
20 Warhammers ….. which plant are they coming from …. How quickly can they manufacture 20 more … how soon can I expect delivery …. Is there a possibility to increase production if more Rosie the riveter’s are assigned ….what’s their security like – once assigned to me which units should they be assigned to as replacements …
TO&E and the All units Force Depletion Reports must be maintained and evaluated regularly … understanding who your best officers are … who gets results …. Which units need to move up and which need R&R&R
Intelligence reports
Designing new operations to move forward
Submitting the reports / evaluating / meetings etc.
A thorough understanding of everything is required to be competent general ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/04/20 09:40 AM)
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ghostrider
08/04/20 01:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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So you think you can operate a factory when the entire landscape is glowing in the dark? Maybe if nothing alive is using the facility. And even then, radiation has odd effects on things like computers and sensors. This is also not saying the radiation clinging to anything produced there. But without anything alive, it is possible. Just hope nothing breaks down.
Even with better tech, trying to find a split second burst is not going to happen any time soon, especially if there is no pattern to when it happens. Much like catching a neutrino. It can be done, but it is more luck with extremely expensive and complicated methods, but that is a physical particle. Not just a simple blip of energy.
The games history has to change as things are NEVER all figured out in advance. Errors do happen, like a colony being founded in a remote area, that didn't have an influx of settlers, yet some how rivals a well established world for population in less then a century. Or how much raw materials it has verse what it puts out, without additional resources. You can not make a jump drive without the Germanium, and if you don't import it, something has to be fixed. I simple story of a raid on the world, forgotten until someone asks how the factory was still pristine. Or there is no one on world that can work on fusion engines, yet is a major repair center for units. Even a near collision with an asteroid can change things as it wasn't thought thru properly. And to suggest you got everything done before hand is highly unlikely. Granted it could be something small, like a hill being where you were going to put the main door, and it won't fit, so rotating the entire factory is needed, but it is still a retcon.
In all the examples you describe, it is the quartermasters department that gathers all of the units into supply points. It does not say you get 20 jeeps from factory a, and 35 jeeps from factory b, and 18 from factory c. The head general just needs to know how many units are coming in along with other supplies. They do not know if factory A actually made 60 jeeps. It may or may not be, they made more for other orders from other units. Of they may be selling them to someone else. Actual intel departments need to know if any of the 60 made went to someone else, then how many and who got them. This is not the commanders priority.
If it was, then the general would have no time for anything else, especially in something the size of the SL.
I seriously doubt Patton or Rommel was worried with where the supplies came from. Just that they got where they were needed, and were in good quality.
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Requiem
08/04/20 08:40 PM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
So you think you can operate a factory when the entire landscape is glowing in the dark?
It is very possible to do so …. This is why it is built at an extreme depth and under how many meters of concrete like material designed to protect against nuclear radiation ….
How else are we going to put a permanent base on the moon in the future?
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Even with better tech, trying to find a split second burst is not going to happen any time soon,
750 years into the future is not any time soon …..
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You can not make a jump drive without the Germanium, and if you don't import it, something has to be fixed.
Alphard – 2 megatons
Considering the number of worlds within the IS for every 1 known 1000 are unknown the probability of Geranium being a rare commodity is again very low … go out and find it!
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And to suggest you got everything done before hand is highly unlikely.
And yet it can be done ….
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This is not the commanders priority.
WW2 shipping
Ships sunk – Cargo lost Vs ships made it and cargo Vs. new ships being built – rate of ships sunk to ships built – going forward or backwards – long term projections for the future if nothing is dome – then what happens if submarine bases / construction is halted …… how is this achievable?
Quote:
I seriously doubt Patton or Rommel was worried with where the supplies came from.
This statement clearly demonstrates a lack of understand as to both Rommel and Patton …..
“Gentemen, the officer who doesn’t know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless.”
Gen. George S Patton, USA
“The battle is fought and decided by the quartermasters, long before the shooting begins.”
Erwin Rommel
How do you think both were able to maintain their superior ability to operate a rapid offensive pace ….
Look at the Lorraine Capaign ….. Patton’s offensive came to a halt on August 31, 1944 …. Why? they ran out of fuel …. A logistics issue … why? Combined demands on a limited resource pool ….. Logistics issue
Then look at the Battle of the Bulge …. The Germans had a very limited time frame …. Why? Logistics
If you do not understand logistics then you cannot win a war …. http://strategicgrowthmanagement.com/military-logistic-quotes
Again winning the war against the Clans is not about a frontal battle with their forward elite units …. Winning the war against the Clans is all about obliterating their logistics fleets!!!! …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/20 11:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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Again. The army commander is not going to be that concerned where the stuff comes from, just that it is going to be there.
The only time they will care is when quality is an issue.
So ordering up a pair of carriers, it is NOT at all likely they will be built at the same facility. As you need both, the work crews tend to only have so many in the ship yards that have the skill to do certain things on certain ships. So two different shipyards would be used. As long as the ships will be delivered on time, it doesn't matter WHERE they are built. Same with fuel. Does it matter if it came from Texas or Alaska?
It all tends to hit the quartermasters, and stored together. It is then sent into the field with no regard to where the item originally came from.
So go past the end point and look to where it all starts.
This is why a general is not going to bother much on WHERE the item is made. The quartermaster would be. And even then, they put in the orders, and as long as the company produces what was ordered, they really aren't going to care much unless something is wrong.
As a note in history, I have yet to hear of ANY general promoted because they knew where all the equipment originated from. All the quotes in the world do not do anything but let someone know someone said something. Some are filled with good information, while others are just hot air. Only a few get credit for the information, yet it was known and spoken before them.
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Requiem
08/05/20 07:19 PM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
Again. The army commander is not going to be that concerned where the stuff comes from, just that it is going to be there.
Again without having a comprehensive understanding as to Logistics your Army Commander is little better than a social / political appointee General!
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so ordering up a pair of carriers, it is NOT at all likely they will be built at the same facility.
Actually, If the two carriers are of the same class then yes they will be built at the same facility. The shipyards within the Star League era are just that vast ….
How else do you get over 5,800 SLDF Navy and close to 400 for Amaris (at the start of the war)?
Also how did the SLDF manufacture over 500 Space stations?
And then look at the Houses fleet sizes shortly thereafter ….
You cannot mix up 3050 shipyards with that of the Star League era
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It all tends to hit the quartermasters, and stored together. It is then sent into the field with no regard to where the item originally came from.
Tell that to the WW2 German Tank Crews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring
Goering 1936 –
“… was entrusted with the task of mobilizing all sectors of the economy for war ….”
It would have been great if Goering had standardized all parts … so that all parts from all plants could be placed on the same tank. Rather than having the requirement of requesting parts from a certain company at they need to be fixed to their version of the panzer tank … as these parts will only fix this type of the panzer tank made in by their company …
Tell that to the WW2 German Artillery Crews
Schindler’s armaments factory.
This why it is very important to know where it supplies comes from ….
Logistics are just that important ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/20 08:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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No. The general or head of the army does not need to know where everything was made at. Just that it is made and is where it needs to be. Some do know where parts are made, but not the entire line of items the army has.
They do need to know there is 2 million gallons of diesel fuel being shipped to the closes depot near the troops, and that it will be there on time. They don't need to know 400,000 gallons was made at Exxon, while 300,000 gallons were made at BP, and the rest came from local sources.
I was talking about carriers in the world today, but the SL ship yards can suffice. As the SL is likely to have other ships being built, it isn't likely they just happen to have a pair of bays open at the Titan yards. And if you need them now, it makes that even more unlikely. Having a huge overhead of stored parts in one location is a bit much.
Now as for the amount of ships made, this goes back to what was said. They would not be made at the same facility. If it was, there would not be any other ship yards around.
So you are telling me that the head of the army in the past did not know where each part came from? And that practice is still alive today?
It is unlikely that in the future, parts will be standardized. Patents and copyrights will see to that. Each manufacturer will have their own line of parts for their product. But again. This is something that the quartermasters department deals with, as well as the technicians that work on the stuff. The general just needs to now if he has a full 12 tanks to send out, or if he only has 10. They make up the goals for missions. Strategy is where they assign what amount of things is to be used. There is no where that they say only items made from the Chrysler factory on main street, in Chicago is used for this mission, and it can't be the ones from Detroit.
So understanding supply lines and such is not the primary thing the general needs to do. No matter how much you quote people, the fact remains that most of them did not sit in the quartermasters department going over what orders were sent and done. They have a large staff to do that, and only care that they have the stuff.
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Requiem
08/06/20 08:15 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
They don't need to know 400,000 gallons was made at Exxon, while 300,000 gallons were made at BP, and the rest came from local sources.
So you are not going to defend, assign defensive forces / garrisons, Exxon, BP and the other sources based upon their importance to the ongoing war – their importance is totally irrelevant ?
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I was talking about carriers in the world today
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport_News_Shipbuilding
“is the largest industrial employer in Virginia, and sole designer, builder and refueler of United States Navy aircraft carriers and one of two providers of U.S. Navy submarines.”
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it isn't likely they just happen to have a pair of bays open at the Titan yards.
Star League Era …. They could have a hundred bays for all we know … each building a single ship, and all at the same time!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:WarShip_classes
wouldn’t it be more efficient if one ship yard produces one class of ship? As noted above there are 9 classes of ships within this list – and yet there are others that could be considered – stealth submarine – Hospital – Logistics etc.
And remember every time a new class of warship is produced this will require hundreds of warships to replace the older class of vessels that have been determined to be obsolete.
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So you are telling me that the head of the army in the past did not know where each part came from? And that practice is still alive today?
What are you going to defend if in the event the enemy sends forces to destroy these facilities ?
Quote:
So understanding supply lines and such is not the primary thing the general needs to do.
A general needs to defend where it is built …. Where it is stored …. How it is transported to the units … and to which unit it will be assigned to ….
If not one saboteur / bomber could damage where it is built or stored … and open the possibility of destroying how the logistics department are shipping the item to the front line ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 11:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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The concept of guarding facilities is almost opposite of what you have said about not having troops spread out across a world. And yet, this discussion shows why it has to happen.
The military would try to guard all facilities, even ones they are not actively using. Even a simple squad of infantry should be assigned, but the companies tend to rely on private security as well. And some companies will get more protection, even if they don't provide to the military because of politics.
But again. The general has staff that deals with this. They might tell him, they need to shift some assets over to one facility or another, but in general the head of the army is not going to be knowledgeable on what comes from what factory. He deals with what the quartermasters department has for him, and send out orders to add or subtract what he might need.
Maybe you are confusing the local forces general with the head of the army. The head is not going to assign soldiers to guard each facility, but take into consideration the recommendations of the one assigned to that area to send in more forces. It is the local commander that would be knowledgeable in what is needed to defend the area.
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Requiem
08/06/20 06:33 PM
1.158.133.26
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The reality is, at the bare minimum a report would go over her/his desk as to the assigned forces.
And in those cases she /he believe the assignment is incorrect amendments will be made.
The Commanding General has ultimate authority over, and is responsible for all the personnel and operations of the military, reporting only to their Liege Lord.
They need to take every piece of information regarding their own forces, TO&E, state of readiness (including all logistics information), experience level (including training), transport capabilities, support capabilities (Navy) etc … consider defensive, offensive, and reserve requirements … make necessary assignments / changes to existing structures ….
Must take into consideration all information gleamed from their intelligence operations and make multiple necessary operational plans (at the tactical and strategic level – small force to Battalion to Regiment to Corp to army level) based upon objective requirements based upon a myriad of short / long term objectives in order to achieve strategic / tactical objectives.
And then they must have a heart as cold as possible, they must divest themselves of all emotions – just retaining a logical attributes …. However this in itself can be a problem becoming a military officer with many years of experience your thought process becomes attuned to a particular way of thinking – what they forget is that humans for the most part can be animals and act, not on rational action, but on emotion and as such the actions of a caged and beaten animal can surprise the rational mind ….when sipping from the cup of victory do not let it cloud your mind!
Thus the need for many people on her/his operational staff who can supply many different divergent points of view – not only based upon how a military mind may think, but form the point of view of a psychological / emotional point of view …. It also wouldn’t be wrong to have a naysayer – as long as when it comes time to make a decision the Commanding Officer does not hesitate, they strike with all necessary force or they shield with all necessary force as required …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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