Questions re: 2750-2751 First Lords

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
ghostrider
08/26/21 09:33 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Why else was the use of bombers so prevalent during WW2 – what was the main reason for the failure of the Rommel in North Africa, operation Market Garden, Battle of the Bulge – why did every side have mass submarine fleets, what were they trying to achieve?
This is why the 4th war was concerned about taking other worlds besides the mech producers. To deny the enemy use of anything that comes from those worlds including places to strike from trying to hit your supplies and flanks. Something that seems lacking in your analysis of military goals. What good is having those facilities when the enemy has destroyed your lands? Your own people will rise up against you for leaving them high and dry.
That's right. I forgot that your responses show you think a free society is a dictatorship that obeys their leaders every wish. They do as they are told or get punished. So if they die because you pulled units protecting them in order to invade even a manufacturing world, then it's ok.

How long before the FWL sees this and hits your weak side as you have all your focus on specific worlds? How long before the DC, which if not for Takashi, would have destroyed the FS and LC. They fumbled around because of the coordinators focus on the Dragoons. They would have swept in, and removed the entire Terran connection region and prevented the FC union. It isn't like the DC and FWL would not sell to the CC. Or even worse, have things like the Sword of Light regiments trouncing the planets in that area. A full scale invasion of the Draconis March would be in order, as the others would know they HAD to remove the FC from those locations. And that is HOPING saboteurs do not wipe them out. Why bother keeping them around if you can't retake them? This is the death struggle after all.

Hmm. Do you think the FC took every world by force in the 4th war? How about any other invasion along the borders? Worlds were captured to use as exchange for worlds the enemy took. And even then, a few worlds would change hands when other worlds around them fell. Actually, that should be systems, as more then a few had multiple worlds in them. Why risk losing great farming lands in assaults when you can just take their defenses from other worlds and fight there?

And your bombardment threat isn't much different then an attacker threatening to burn the entire world if you continue resistance. Which has been done before.
One more thing. What would have happened to history if the scientists working on the Nuclear bomb for Germany was killed? Would you be able to say the world would be the same thing as it is now? This is the very basis on why the future can not exist when you change major factors in the past. The U.S. and Russia would not become the world's superpowers. Other countries would have risen up without nukes. The entire landscape as we know it would not exist.
Karagin
08/26/21 10:02 PM
70.118.172.64

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
He doesn't want nukes, okay cool, but given that the use of fission and fusion power are needed to get humans OFF of Terra and into space means it's going to be hard to get rid of nukes. We keep going in the same circle with him, he won't see that his ALT is not going to work and won't adjust anything when we point out the issue. Might be time to let this go and move on to other topics.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
08/26/21 11:25 PM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
During the 3025 - This is not total war – As for the “Total War” during the 4th Succession War - this
is just the requisitioning of available jump-ships for the war effort. May I suggest research is undertaken as to the meaning of total war as per WW2 and how this would effect each houses output and military numbers (conscription).

Where does 3000 mechs a year come from? – which era, is it 3025? and how is this broken down per House? As shortly after the Clan Invasion there is an explosion on new Mech designs, naval ships etc as well as production sites can this be explained if the IS is such a basket case of a military industrial capabilities.

Shortages of Jump-ships - Read the 4th Succession War books - what I am suggesting is no more than that which occurred here.

So on the first note Logistics don’t matter (Get the total warfare economy out of your head) and then Logistics do matter (you would understand that raids main function it to wipe out stockpiles when found)

Which is it? How do you want to proceed with your game logistics don’t natter or they do matter or they are only included in the game when your units are involved against the enemies units and then post scenario you determine how resupply and rearmament is to occur – for me the only way forward is to think about a simple method that is right for me and mine alone, as no one would ever agree with it.

Quote:
All the items you listed shows why there is no way to track everything on a pin board as you have no clue on what is where.



And here I thought I was tracking just the regular units of each military and NOT the logistics as there is absolutely no way to tack or to provide a definitive amount as this aspect of war was never included in the game – so the only way anyone, including TPTB, can use logistics in the game is if the god mode is on. As the ability to manufacture a spreadsheet based upon the IS wide economy has never been quantified by anyone including the TPTB as far as the books are written.

So unless there is some kind of tracking number assigned to every unit that simplifies this – as well as some kind of simplified logistics resupply figure and a technical repair figure the idea of Logistics within the game is pointless. So how do you track battlefield damage as well as replacement personnel numbers and what timeline is involved? No one else has thought this through – all the books you are just supposed to assume that the TPTB are correct, so where is their underlying figures?

So unless at the start of the game every conceivable aspect of the game has been quantified down to the most minute detail and can be tracked on a monthly basis for every unit Inner Sphere and Clan the only thing that can be done is where the writer makes an assumption based upon their projections and belief …

And yes there is reality involved here … the closest that I can get based upon me belief and the limitations of the game due to how it was constructed.

As for the base being wiped out – this is why you have security forces – also this is why every unit in the BattleTech Universe must be a mobile army – they must have the ability to take everything of importance with them if necessary – thus all that is left to guard is empty buildings, that can be rebuilt. Or each military has a combat arm and a non-combat arm in the event of a combat arm being sent to war the non-combat arm is withdrawn to a position of safety. Or each Army recognises that combat will between combat units and they do not involve non combat operations units in a war setting.

Choose.

I am NOT telling anyone anything - what I AM saying is that everyone has the freedom to design their game the way they want it to go – each gaming group is not beholden to me or to the canon story. They can use my suggestions or ignore them as they wish – the game is supposed to be fun and exiting – so make it fun and exiting – if there is something in the game that disturbs you then remove it. If you think up a new dimension to the game that you believe will be fun and exiting then give it a whirl and see what happens.

What I am doing is pointing out the inconsistencies within the canon story that require rethought – in this situation you have to ask yourself - do you believe that the canon story or their characters are acting as per historical canon tomes have portrayed them? Or is what is written accurate and believable or do you have another take on what was written – do you believe its accuracy?
As we all have beliefs and we all have freedom to express our beliefs do we not have the freedom to let others know what we believe and try to express why we believe as we do?

As for the 8th FedCom RCT – this is Civil War Arc – First Princess Katherine Steiner- Davion Vs Victor Steiner-Davion’s supporters … so please, explain how future events (3062-64) once again impact upon past events (3050 onwards) as my time machine is broken and I believe the topic was concerning the Clan Invasion era.

I want to build a story that does not make me cringe at the multitude of implausible scenarios – as demonstrated by many late 1800’s boys own adventure books.

Quote:
D&D does not have everyone expecting to step into another groups campaign and have everything the same.



And I am not expecting others to step into my campaign – I am expecting people to use their judgement to determine where they want to be, when they want to be, and with whom they want to be with.

Each individual has the ability to create their campaign – there is nothing wrong in changing canon to fit your beliefs or to move wildly away – individuals must be allowed to have choice.

Continuity is not gone – just because you remove / change a character – the writer, as an individual and having freedom to do so, has the ability to modify and add new characters that can change the dynamics of the story – So what would be the damage to the story if I did change Phelan (male) to Phebe (female)? Is this such a capital sin?

Quote:
This is why the 4th war was concerned about taking other worlds besides the mech producers. To deny the enemy use of anything that comes from those worlds including places to strike from trying to hit your supplies and flanks.



Have you actually read about every world within each Great House? – I have and I have the spreadsheets based on geographical location stating the importance of each world – many of them have absolutely no information at all as to their worth.
So why attack a world that has no real economic worth?
Also this is space warfare not land warfare – Naval fleets are used to attack flanks – Naval fleets distribute logistics ….
The Primary Targets are all military Industrial worlds followed by regional capitol and then high population or important mining / agriculture … With the CC and their limited number of armed forces circa 4th Succession War – Take all the Military industrial capability worlds and it is then just a matter of time before the CC falls over – it can be done in 2 to 3 waves depending on the CC responses!

You do realise that that the Fs has enough forces to mount an effective defence and at the same time kill of the CC.

In war there will always be acceptable collateral damage – otherwise no one would ever go to war and the BattleTech game would end as everyone has now joined the peace train and are singing kumbaya ….

As for the FWL don’t they have enough problems with the LC? And as for the DC you do realise that the LC and the FS have enough forces to keep them occupied with the CC are killed off … as per canon !

Also if the corridor is attacked wouldn’t the FS and the LC adapt and just move their forces also into the corridor or even attack the DC from the rear due to depleted numbers now engaged in the corridor?
So now that the FS and the LC are in the DC’s backyard what is the DC to do?

Quote:
What would have happened to history if the scientists working on the Nuclear bomb for Germany was killed? Would you be able to say the world would be the same thing as it is now?



Actually, this is very easy to answer, and it is yes – it was not until after the war that the USA discovered that the German scientists were no way near completing a nuclear bomb and it was all USA’s hysteria about being beaten to the bomb that led to the development of the bomb.

This is why the future can exist – the writer can add new players and new scenarios so that they can end up exactly where the writer wants them to end up.

In a world without nukes there would have been a 3rd and maybe even a 4th World War by now if all we were going to use was conventional armaments! Nukes preserve the peace – the consequences of a war on this scale are just too terrifying to comprehend M.A.D.

So its anyone’s guess as whom the superpowers could be.

Question – does the removal of military applications reduce the applications to civilian at the same time or are they separate from one another with independent research and development teams – does the same team that works on the Powerplant also work on the bomb or do we keep these two separate – civil and military? How is research and development organised?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/26/21 11:26 PM)
ghostrider
08/27/21 03:53 AM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
You mean shifting manufacturing towards military purposes at the expense of civilian goods isn't total war production, as the FS did for a few years prior to the 4th war? Maybe you should do some research, or reading the information given without adding in all the little things that aren't there.

3000 units is basically adding up all the mech production in the IS when Objective raids came out. It isn't exact but close enough to show this. And with it, the information said that they barely kept up with the losses.

And distance is forgotten with those jumpships. Conscription is one thing when the jump ship is within a few jumps of where it operates at. Sending it to the other side of the IS creates a far different issue. There is no quick way to get it back into position where it was needed. The fact that the 4th war removed a very large chunk of those ships used for moving necessary things is why the FS was hurting so badly. Now, you are suggesting the same thing only sending them out even further.

Did you bother to read the context provided with the total warfare post? The statement with context.
Get the total warfare economy out of your head. The IS did that for so long, they basically destroyed the economy for so long, that in the 3025 era, they were just barely starting to come back.

for me the only way forward is to think about a simple method that is right for me and mine alone, as no one would ever agree with it.
Stop trying to use the alt numbers to say canon is wrong. This is the simple thing. You are trying to defend your position with numbers that don't matter at all in canon.
Logistics is very important, but in the case of the clans, the supplies you had, were mainly what you had to use. And this is going back to why the IS DIDN'T go total warfare. It wasn't required. The IS did not have the ability to come back from destroying their economy. Something that seems to elude you entirely.
Setting up for another war was probably going on before the clans invaded. So total war production isn't needed.

As you said it yourself. There is no data provided on what ships had what equipment going to what unit. So you did NOT have the numbers the developers had, so saying they should have done this or that is just blowing smoke. You put in what ever you wanted to. This is simple as well. Do the alt, but trying to say canon is wrong because you put in what ever you wanted to, when the developers had completely different ideas on what was going on.

That is correct. TPTB are correct in everything they put up for what happened in their canon story line in their game. Even if they just said it happened that way, they are right about their story. I don't agree with chunks of it, but they are right for their story of their game.

The statements made by yourself say you don't have guards, or security forces. There is a major assumption that you have all the dropship space and jumpships to move everything you have. And by doing so, leave things like your factories that build your munitions and units without thost guards. Oh yeah. You think you can take everything in your base with you that is valuable or important. This shows a lack of actual thinking of everything required to go to war. I do scorched earth with any supplies you might pick up on your assault, while wiping out your ability to produce more.
Requiem
08/27/21 06:30 AM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

Actual research would include …. For WW2 Total War, Rosie the Riveter, The Economies of Total War, Liberty Ship Production, Aircraft Production, Conscription and the list goes on and on ….

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Objective_Raids:_3067

Sorry but my … ‘notoriously error-ridden, Objective Raids sourcebook’ … only has production sites and a listing as to what is manufactured, and it does not have quantities listed … can you please provide a more detailed information regarding this 3,000 units figure.

Quote:
The fact that the 4th war removed a very large chunk of those ships used for moving necessary things is why the FS was hurting so badly.



Actually, from a Total War Economy perspective, this would be the reverse – rather than destroying the economy it actually invigorates the economy – there are many papers written on the topic that help in understanding economics during the Total War Era – may I suggest having a look at USA’s economy during WW2 as well as all of the social implications this caused.

Also it appears that you didn’t realize that the FC now has control over all the former CC ships and the FWL are also engaged in moving mem and material to the front lines – so if taking this logic to its conclusion then it is simple to realize that there is still ample shipping to conduct the transport of goods between those home worlds whom each states deems that they require them during this total war period. So no it is not as bad as the 4th Succession War would have you believe.

Also, as we have moved to a total war footing the number of new Liberty Class Jump-Ships and Dropships should be starting to come out of their moorings … have a look at how many were produced WW2 and their time frame …. due to a Total War footing.

How can it not be about numbers –
How many Mechs, tanks, vehicles, fighters, VTOLS, conventional fighters / Bomber, artillery pieces, Infantry etc on the Inner Sphere’s Side
Vs
How many Mechs, Elementals and Fighters for the Clans
Then it is just a question of each side’s loss depletion report and repair and maintenance and reinforcement numbers as the war progresses

Also time and civil engineering need to be considered as well as a multitude of other factors that may impact the war … just as they did in all previous conflicts.

Total warfare not required????

Sorry but I do not believe this … if the game is move beyond a SLDF single assault (that makes about as much sense as a cat flap in a nuclear submarine) against the Jaguars to a multi SLDF assault against ALL the remaining Clans that have not switched sides then there is but one path – A total War Economy throughout the IS – Effectively a Clan Invasion in reverse!

And as stated above and in many economist papers on the subject - A total War Economy does NOT destroy the economy it actually invigorates it!

What numbers the developers had? If they did have numbers don’t you believe that they would have incorporated them into a book – by not doing so then the logical assumption would be that there are no numbers!

Thus, it is at the freedom of the writer - based upon their logical assumptions which are backed up by economist figures and other research papers based upon previous wars – to determine their cause of completely different cause of action going forward.

TPTB are correct in everything they put up for what happened in their canon story line in their game – and no one is allowed to create any works that tamper with this view, all we are allowed to do is go by what canon has written even if we get different outcomes in our games at home?

Quote:
And by doing so, leave things like your factories that build your munitions and units without those guards.



It was clearly stated – Bases; So, since when did military industrial complexes become bases?

Quote:
Oh yeah. You think you can take everything in your base with you that is valuable or important. This shows a lack of actual thinking of everything required to go to war.



Then can you explain how this was achieved in WW2 for example – how did Patton’s Third Army move if they didn’t have what was required at the time?

As for a scorched earth mentality – we are nor right back at the 1st Succession war Scenario.

Also, no comment on Phebe? Or how there are military products and there are civilian products as to how research and development is utilized?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
08/27/21 09:12 AM
70.118.172.64

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Hey Ghostrider if you are going to quote him, use the quote tag code please.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
08/28/21 02:14 AM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I was wrong about the objective raids book having the production numbers in them. Been looking thru some of the books and found a few numbers. The main one is the house books.
House Marik says on page 114 that they estimate 500 mechs a year are produced, and on page 115, it breaks down the types and numbers. It also states on 114 that it is estimated that only 30 assault mechs are produced a year.
What I find odd with this is the listing of the Goliath being made, yet was not in the 3025 TRO. The wiki says that the Goliath was produced by a few companies including Defiance. So there is some questions that pop up.
House Davion says the Corean Enterprises factories pump out over 130 Valkyries per year, with Independence weaponry being able to put out Victor and Marauder mechs at 20 a year, though Atlas mechs are only 5 a year on page 150 of the old book.
I had gone thru those books trying to find out just how many mechs they made quite a few years ago. Not all were stated, and I don't have the Liao book.
The house Kurita book says the FS had the most forces with the DC being second.

The total war concept does not invigorate economies where distance of light years and the lack of supplies moving to planets is a problem. You first lose imports of luxuries, then start having issues with necessary items. The manufacturers have stopped making parts for things you use everyday, so once they break, you are out of luck. Buying a new one isn't happening. People like salesman lose their jobs until they can get in stock of non military things. Emergency spending by the government means funds going for social programs on worlds is cut. Prices shoot up, as only profiteers can find some items. You want it, you pay out the nose for it. So in the case of distances, total warfare production does NOT increase the economy.
ghostrider
08/28/21 02:42 AM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
As I had IE close on me answering some things before the last response, I will try again.

Saying you are NOT telling anyone anything is a false statement. You are demanding a rewrite of the game because it does not fit your numbers or vision.
That is very much telling everyone they have to kneel to your view. The developers have it all wrong because your numbers say so. This fact has been missed in the analysis of the entire time of saying canon is wrong. As the developers did not give you everything, you are missing vital concepts to even begin to demand it is wrong and they should have done this or that. The fact that units are destroyed and damaged was beyond those numbers you were running, as you seem to believe new units just pop up and damage is fixed instantaneously. Read the stories and fluff in the books sometime. Units have been down for years waiting for parts and to be fixed. Simple rules tell the story as well. Partial repairs basically removes how much armor a location can have. 1-4 points in this case. For an assault mech, that isn't that much, but for a wasp or stinger, that means you can lose the entire arm armor. 1 point on a leg is almost as bad.
The games concept of rolling the number or higher is to show just how difficult parts are to come by. Even normal armor or weapons loads can be missing, meaning if you didn't bring enough extras, you deal without. But again, your numbers with everything doesn't work with this. So you say canon is wrong.

Funny. You said show you an example of troops ignoring a march lords orders. I did not see anything that dealt with a specific time. Also, Michael Hasek had constantly defied Hanse before the 4th war. There were a few times he moved units so the CC could hit worlds.

It seems you forget a major thing with fighting. Not a surprise as you believe you can keep everything you have in one location. Just because you have 100 regiments, does not mean they are all on the same world. It does not mean all the units that make up one regiment is on one world. You have to defend as much as you can, otherwise you will lose those locations. You suggest only military manufacturers are worth defending. This is faulty logic. Take Defiance and the stories about it. The workers of the factory do NOT live in the factory but a city near by. You have to defend them in order to keep the skilled workers available for making the units the factory makes. Remove them, and you lose the ability to make anything. No imports or exports. You are dead in the water. And as the books say, Hesperus II does NOT make enough food to feed them all, so you HAVE to import that as well as parts. The Fusion engines are not in adequate supply, which is why Defiance put a fusion engine manufacturing plant on another world. I forget the name.
You can not have everything at one location. Iron, copper and a few other metals are needed to make the components of almost everything needed for war. You will not find mines that you can set a single factory on all of them at once, to avoid having to protect them all.

I know you told me how to do the quote thing, but the one time I tried to use it, I got frustrated with it. I will attempt it again in the future, but no promises.
Requiem
08/28/21 08:19 AM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Helm Memory Core - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Helm_Memory_Core - After its discovery in 3028 … This led to the improved military equipment, medical treatments, and purification equipment for water, atmospheres, and whole planetary environments.

Between 3028 and 3050 what developments to production numbers occurred?

Quote:
The total war concept does not invigorate economies where distance of light years and the lack of supplies moving to planets is a problem.



Wouldn’t this depend on the number of Jump-ships requisitioned for the military – yes, I will agree that under some economies luxury items will drop, however, that said read the attachment below – as for necessary items, again, only if there is a shortage of Jump-ships.
The salesman that lost their job, though this may be because she/he has been conscripted or is now working in a military industrial facility such as the new munitions plant that has opened.
Military programs may now supplant social programs – which may be a good thing as unemployment is now no longer occurring due to the massive drive for workers within new military industrial facilities / or in the military - education is on the up as upon graduation you can now look forward to a career in the military or if you are a Senator’s Child in a university … , thankyou Creedence Clearwater Revival. Housing is no longer a problem – on base housing has exploded.
Prices remain the same as the law has now initiated anti-war profiteering legislation – though at the same time the Black Market has also exploded thus the need to ensure the Peelers are doing their job (Peelers is a nickname for a Police constable).

That said …. https://prospect.org/health/way-won-america-s-economic-breakthrough-world-war-ii/

I would, however, like to point out one error – America won the war abroad – historically speaking this is not the case, in both Europe and Asia, Russia won the war!
Europe – have a look at the statistics – Russia engaged more and killed more than the US, and were first into Berlin – also due to a certain US’ President’s belief that he could work with Stalin and completely ignore Churchill’s warnings how many countries fell behind the iron curtain?
Asia – as stated many times the Bomb did not force Japan to Surrender – the idea that Japan would fall to the Russians, as they had just declared war on them, was the reason why Japan very quickly surrendered to the US as it ensured they had the possibility of retaining the Emperor under the US whereas under Russia this was impossible (as what happened to Russia’s?).

Thus, as per all reasonable documents I have read and arguments considered total war production WILL increase the IS’ economy overall.

Quote:
Saying you are NOT telling anyone anything is a false statement. You are demanding a rewrite of the game because it does not fit your numbers or vision.



What happens if you are demanding a re-write because the original story was … reading like an 1800’s boys own adventure book and was lacking excitement, was too predicable, the characters and plot development was stilted in their response, and the plot development was totally lacking …

Also, when you compare the characters in the warrior series to that of the Clan Invasion book you begin to wonder what is going on, as the character development has fallen off a cliff …

The biggest issue - when you actually begin to try to understand the Inner Spheres response to the Clan invasion you begin to wonder what is going on. As no sane leader would actually consider doing 99.9% of what is written within those very awful plot developments … where a great many of them are so badly written it is hard to understand what is going on …

In my opinion the only way this can be accepted is if the information is taken at face value - without trying to understand. But for me the entire plot development, as well as the majority of characters, were a very bad joke – I kept on wanting it to get better but never did.

Yes, some of the individual stories are interesting – however the main arc story has a great deal to be considered anything other than very badly structured and executed.

Thus the need to point out some of its very many flaws! With the hope that someday someone may consider re-writing it into a more expansive and insightful story with vastly more characters and engagements (a new age of warfare!) – as this is the only way justice can be done to such a comprehensive story - for example Warhammer 40K and the Horus Heresy mid 50s books and how large is each book … this is what should be considered!

Anyway – I have had a great deal of fun with my alternate missions to canon! So why not disseminate …

Quote:
as you seem to believe new units just pop up and damage is fixed instantaneously



Er, no … this is why there needs to a running loss depletion report for ‘every’ unit – Clan and Inner Sphere … Though I would like to point out how this occurs on the Canon Clan side.

This is why more information is needed, as to the output for Military Industrial Capabilities, and Logistical transport on both sides …

As for units being down for years - when was this? pre or post Helm Memory Core as the expansion of new mech designs would indicate that the issue of spare parts taking considerable time to fix is no longer a consideration …

As stated above the only way Military Industrial Capabilities – output – and logistical transport can be implemented in the game is if a very simple set of rules is established prior to the clan invasion. The question is how? As the massive number of variables to consider will impact everything.

So again why are the clans allowed nil damage and yet the IS is expected to put up with antiquated rules when it comes to post battle assessment / repair – either one rule for both or I call discrimination and biased game rules.

Quote:
So you say canon is wrong.



YES – when were these rules adopted for which Arc? And once you adopt a total war scenario these rules become absolutely-irrelevant!

Quote:
I did not see anything that dealt with a specific time.



Then discussing a specific era or anything for that matter is now pointless … I raise a question regarding an apple and in return I receive an orange as to why …

Will equivocating issues will now be standard in all future replies?

Quote:
It does not mean all the units that make up one regiment is on one world.



Problem is when a unit is assigned to multiple worlds with the tomes they specifically state which are off-world.

So unless there is a specific note stating this the assumption must be that the entire RCT is on world – as to their disposition on world this depends with what also is on world - what are the RCT there for – garrison – Military industrial capabilities – spaceport – capital what is it and then there is the issue of distance between these primary targets – again this comes back to what is written or not written. Thus if there is no information regarding the planet it is up to the defensive player to create the world that they will defend.

They should be allowed to create the fortress they will defend. This is the only logical coarse of action.

Quote:
This is faulty logic. Take Defiance and the stories about it. The workers of the factory do NOT live in the factory but a city near by. You have to defend them in order to keep the skilled workers available for making the units the factory makes. Remove them, and you lose the ability to make anything



Three issues with this,
First, after how many repeated invasions don’t you believe that invasion shelters have been established to protect civilians from this very situation – as during the cold war civil defence shelters and personal fall out shelters were in vogue, so why not here?
Second, killing off the workers and you have now become a war criminal – I do not know about your game, but you can guess with my stance on WMDs that I will have a dim view of this!
Third, if you did kill off the workers and captured the plant who and where are you going to get the workers to do their job to produce the exports that brought you there in the first place – real own goal then!

Quote:
You will not find mines that you can set a single factory on all of them at once, to avoid having to protect them all.



If you are fighting a fellow IS House I would agree as this is just SOP.
However, as you are fighting the Clans the issue of defending multiple sites over the planet is pointless. The Clans view of a circle of equals and the belief that everyone should adopt their way of fighting creates massive blinkers. They believe in attacking all HQs in a child’s capture the flag game as the aim of all war – capture the flag, capture the world. This, however, allows all out reaching units who were not attacked in their game of ‘what forces do you defend this planet?’ -assigned elsewhere on the world to immediately initiate a guerrilla war to which the Clan view of war has never even considered a viable strategy. Especially as most garrison units cannot be above trinary level – as this will overtime deplete the remaining invasion numbers down to nil by about the three-quarter level – as they really did not think through their bid numbers when considering the numbers actually required to reach terra.

This also raises the question as to how all these clans thought they could reach Terra -and have enough to actually take Terra when it was academically evident that given the number of garrisons maintained that this becomes academically impossible!

Even cheating by calling in free-born garrison units will not work when you evaluate each Clan’s Touman this also becomes evident that this also will not work – none of the Clans has an adequate number of free-born garrison forces to make this achievable.

Thus at the three quarter mark there really is only one option – reaving from another clan or a trial of absorption – join two together – give up on the losers territory and use this new combined number (again if it is viable considering the damage sustained during such a trial) – Thus for the trial of absorption to become viable for both clans to enable them to maintain their strength for this war there would have to be a limited engagement - so now they will have available forces to continue the march to Terra - This is the only solution given the limited number of units each clan bid for their right to be included in the invasion! Did anyone ever consider this that the numbers just did not work considering the invasion objective?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/28/21 12:19 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Unemployment dropping? Unless people are being moved from worlds that have lost access to a lot of things to the worlds that have the boon because of increased manufacturing, then that concept fails. You can not ship jobs to a world to build mechs that have no mech factory.

The only person that I have seen demanding a rewrite has been the one arguing that the story should have done this or that. So far, everyone else said the story was entertaining. There were some points they didn't like, but then in all stories, things are expected. The heroes magically do things no one else can. You know certain things are going to happen as the story forces it to, like Tyra taking out the bridge of the Direwolf. Funny thing is when their ride home jumped, all the pilots should have considered doing just that, as it was fight and die, or surrender. Being at the jump point with enemy ships around, and yours just left, means no fuel to get to any worlds.
Most don't agree with the Jihad. Most say it shouldn't have happened like it did. They do not say it has to be rewritten along their visions of the game.

This issue is not showing what you done, it is saying canon is wrong because they didn't do things that way. As stated before, not knowing what the developers had for numbers leading up to events, there is no way you can argue they did it wrong. Yet that is what it has turned out to be. This simple fact is what is causing the problem. Stop saying canon should have done this or that, and you will find less arguments.

Having units out for a year or more has happened before and after the Core. Trying to get a replacement engine is one of those things that can take a year or more. They don't have thousands of them stockpiled, and depending on where you are assigned, just not a lot of traffic or maybe even having the shipment hijacked. There have been several things come up. This is especially true when only one mech type uses that engine and you are not in the nation that originally builds them. Example: A Stalker on the OA border.

The clans did take damage. They didn't tell you what and how much as losing mechs isn't such a big deal for them. They don't send them all into combat, and will shift pilots to mechs not being used. So the entire concept of Baker Trinary being down doesn't affect them like it does the IS. They can shift units from Charlie Trinary if needed. You don't notice it because you don't know how many they had to start with. Also, a lot of damage that takes time is changing out damaged or destroyed components, normally weapons. The pods negates this for the most part.

Considering the argument that canon is wrong, and using the alt to show why, is very much arguing apples and oranges. Something that doesn't seem to have appeared in comprehension of the threads, yet has been said multiple times.

They do keep some records of where units are, but for some missions, the exact location and what they are doing is not listed. This is how you keep raids and strikes quiet. If you had a list of where units where, simple hacks into your system would tell the enemy what they need to know. And this does not include one of the higher ups taking the unit for a mission.

Shelters were made, but the fact is, just by threatening them, you shut down production at the factory. Also, shelters only last so long. You need food and water stocked in them along with other supplies.
So anytime you bomb a factory in war, and kill the workers, you become a war criminal? The whole reason to destroy factories is to prevent them from working. Yes, there is a difference as you are going after the workers outside of the factory, but then any assassinations would be a war crime. It isn't like wiping out cities hasn't been a popular event during wars.
Experience is the main key between workers there and bringing in your own. Loyalty is the reason why you would want your own people in those positions, as sabotage will be likely. From damage to the factory itself to having extra things installed in what they are making. Simple software that pings the location of the enemy using a unit on up to remote detonated explosives or shut down. There are so many things someone can do, and if the manufacturers were smart, they would have coding like this as part of their primary functions, so you can find or remove it easily. Part of unrewritable chips.

The mines I was talking about was not explosive, but with the context given, ore mines, IE iron, copper and such. This is why I continue to say you don't read everything and comprehend what is being said. This pattern suggests you do this with the story lines, and miss why things were done a certain way. Adding in things that aren't there is another issue that shows up from time to time. I do understand that examples can help others understand the point of view, so haven't been that vocal on that point.
ghostrider
08/28/21 08:43 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The question on why you would take worlds that don't have military manufacturing has been asked.
There is a very simple reason for this besides denying safe places to the enemy.
The question of how governments pay for anything is the answer.
Taxes. He who has lands will gain money from those living on the lands. I would say the rich are the exception, but that is a given.

Military units are sold in other nations, and having the money to buy them is necessary when you lose your ability. To think your enemy is defeated when they can't make their own weapons is being naive. In the world today, there are a lot of nations that don't make the equipment they use. They buy from others.

The idea of Comstar being a bank of sorts shows true in this case. Credit is transferred thru Comstar to worlds. Without the HPG network, there would be no way to deal with the nations in a war.

So just because a world does not build military equipment does not mean it isn't economically important.
Requiem
08/28/21 09:32 PM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
You can not ship jobs to a world to build mechs that have no mech factory.



And yet this is done all the time in the USA – as how many industries are required to keep the military operational? …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defence_companies_by_country

Food, Clothing, Heath care, communication, technology, civil engineering requirements, - small arms requirements - ordnance requirements – vehicle requirements (and the list goes on and on) Then there are the individual parts than make them – so how many parts are made in one state, then shipped to another for final construction, just so that individual house armed services commission members will accept defence policy when it comes to decision of making a new vehicle for the military?

The military are not just manufacturing new Mechs. The logistical requirement of keeping any military operational is staggering – the ability to transfer one of those plants to a world that requires an economic boost is also achievable.
Then there is the reverse – transfer people from depressed worlds to those that have requirements for more personnel.

Let me guess you are then going to say this is impossible due to the shortages in Jump-ships – and I will counter with stating that as we have no exact figures this suggestion becomes impossible to quantify.

So lets put this on the table – in 3025 and the 4th succession war there was a shortage – then along comes the Helm Memory Core … As Jump-ships and Drop-ships are the vehicle to which each states military and economic prosperity is achieved at what point does any state stand up and say now that we know how to build ships and warships once more the question now is how to build then en mass? - so let us start with this. When is the point reached when each state starts a program to build ships in numbers as they did during the Star League Era? As this is perhaps THE most singular important concept in a black sea universe – when do you start building more ship-yards so that you can build more ships?

This is one of the most fundamental issues in the Battletech universe – who and when does any Great House recognise that the problem can now be fixed – they have the technology and the manpower to mass produce … America recognised this prior to joining WW2, they recognised that England required ships en mass thus whole new ship yards were created for this very purpose – Kaiser Shipyards for example where ships and yards grew together … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUm6xjXq3MU

Sorry, but in my opinion this must have started some time prior to 3039 – then the question is how many new yards can be established and how many – and this is where I leave canon and start a massive new shipping program for the FC (including their captured former CC territory) and sometime soon thereafter the DC and the FWL will also have to recognise this and shift resources to ship building.

Thus, the question is, what effect this would have by 3050? as this figure is now at the discretion of GM …

As the Clans arrive in 3050 and the invasion continues the number of ships requested will only increase … and again this figure will be at the discretion of the GM.

So again I say, there is an issue here that should have been addressed by canon and has never been adequately addressed.

Quote:
Most don't agree with the Jihad. Most say it shouldn't have happened like it did. They do not say it has to be rewritten along their visions of the game.



If more individuals did stand up and say this is poorly written, and that they are dissatisfied then maybe someone would have recognised the need for more informed and exciting stories and the universe would not have ended up as a poorly written as it has.

Quote:
This issue is not showing what you done, it is saying canon is wrong because they didn't do things that way.



No it is poorly written because (in my opinion) no one actually took some time to do some research and think through the invasion and the responses to the invasion – it appears to have been a very cooky cutter approach to war as it was rushed through and not given the time and diligence that is required to turn a story into something vastly superior.

This is the hallmark of the Clan Invasion – it was all too rushed and not given the time that is required to adequately create a superior product from a mediocre product.

This is why there are so many grumblings about the invasion …

When told who was in command of the FC and the DC and then you compare their actions during the 4th Succession war and 3039 to that of the Clan invasion what is your response?
When told that the IS could manufacture Clan Weapons what was your response?
When told that during the 1 year of peace nothing was going to happen to reinforce any position what was your response?
When “Finally” the Dragoons decided to inform the IS about their heritage what was your response?
Then the 15 years truce and the rush to kill off just ONE clan what was your response?
Where are all the IS Omni mechs – in reality the Angel WOB mechs should be standard for all IS forces at this stage!
Then Huntress itself – no technology or factories taken home? Sorry but again did someone loose track of the bigger picture here?

I stand by what I have written – this is perhaps one of the worst examples of a science fiction war that has ever been published! There is no getting around it – it does not survive the test of time, if I attempt to re-read these books now I end up throwing them against the wall due to the complete and utter implausibility of the stories written. So there is but only one solution – re-write it!

Thus I have placed suggestions forward as to how this can be rewritten – how it can be made more exiting.

Quote:
As stated before, not knowing what the developers had for numbers leading up to events, there is no way you can argue they did it wrong.



The issue is that as far as any book has been produced – THER ARE NO NUMBERS!

And without numbers you cannot adequately quantify how an interstellar war involving nations can be said to be realistic. Vague issues just leads to speculation and doubt as to what can and cannot be achieved!

When comparing the manoeuvrability of the 4ths Succession War and that of the Clan Invasion it is easy to hypothesise that during the Clan War they were using a the jump-vastly reduced ship fleet and there were absolutely no good reasons for doing so.

So again there is but one solution – we the fans need to stand up and say we are displeased – please make note of why we are displeased – and please fix it.

Question – If presented with the possibility of a re-write to make the game more enjoyable, that could also reinvigorate the game – bring in vastly new people to back when it first came out - would you be upset at this prospect or would you think this was all in the best for the company and get on board?

Quote:
Trying to get a replacement engine is one of those things that can take a year or more. They don't have thousands of them stockpiled, and depending on where you are assigned, just not a lot of traffic or maybe even having the shipment hijacked. There have been several things come up.



Then why is this only happening to Inner Sphere forces – Clan Space is far more distant, the number of ships they brought with them indicate that they do not have mass quantities stockpiled and the Inner Sphere also has the opportunity to hijack their shipments – so why does this never seem to occur for the clans?

Again - pitiful writing.

Then with Total War and the expansion of the armaments industries – how will this alleviate the shortages – remember the IS has shorter logistic chains and far more manpower than that of the Clans – A further point that was never addressed in any of the books!
Comparisons to the Inner Sphere should be that of USA WW2 and Japan – the industrial might of the IS is staggering (many, many times greater) when compared to that of the Clans – their manpower and their ability to mass produce warriors is far more in excess of that of the Clans … and yet this was never addressed ….

Again – pitiful writing

There must come a point in time for every House to recognise that there is issues with their military industrial complex as to shortages – such as engines – and at that point they should do everything they can to alleviate the problem and not to let it stagnate

All of this is achievable with Omni Tech – reduce the number of weapons systems so that spares no longer become an issue and yet what do we get the complete opposite for the Inner Sphere … again can someone get a grip on reality!

Quote:
The clans did take damage. They didn't tell you what and how much as losing mechs isn't such a big deal for them.



This issue was never truly explored - every battle with the Clans never explored this – even post Tukayyid – the damage each clan must have sustained would have been vast – so why didn’t the Inner Sphere take advantage of this to launch a massive retaliatory strikes into the heart of many of the Clans – to keep them off balanced – keep their numbers low – the Falcons demonstrated that such actions are allowable with their strike above the line, so why not in reverse and in numbers, utilizing their own traditions against them? You have them on the ropes so why not keep them on the ropes for the next 15 years … do nothing and you risk them digging in, you allow resupply through – you allow then time to build their own military industrial facilities within the IS … all this must be opposed!

Again, this is now getting beyond a joke as to how bad writing can get – this is war – you cannot cede them one planet. The Objective can only be their total and utter expulsion for the Inner Sphere – there is no other that can be allowed!

Quote:
They do keep some records of where units are, but for some missions, the exact location and what they are doing is not listed.



Then who gets to say what is and what is not there if there are no records – is there going to be an emergency email I can send a question to every time I am going to propose an invasion that will provide me with all the information that I require?

Until then the best I can do is go by the book – it says the unit is here on this world – and the book also says the unit has XY&Z forces – thus I will have all of these forces available to me when the Clans arrive, as per how I have created my defensive operations for the campaign to come.

As how am I supposed to account for the higher ups taking a unit for a mission if there is no book on the subject and there is no table that says you have to role 2D6 prior to every planetary invasion to determine how many units have been sent off world prior to invasion, just so you can mess with defensive operations?

Quote:
just by threatening them, you shut down production at the factory



Depends on the factory – if built into a mountain where all supplies are maintained for production then there is absolutely no point to halt construction.
Above ground facility - yes you would as this is a safety issue where all personnel would be sent to the bunker.
Why else would Germany begin constructing vast underground factories at the end of WW2?

So again in reality considering the severe number of wars within the Inner Sphere wouldn’t every important facility be underground from the get go?

Quote:
So anytime you bomb a factory in war, and kill the workers, you become a war criminal?



Quote:
The workers of the factory do NOT live in the factory but a city near by.



You stated that they live in a city nearby – so in all reality, they live there with their families ie. civilians. Also, since when did factory workers equate to the same level of military personnel?

This is a very interesting legal argument that I am more than willing to argue if you like – but it will get technical as to the rules of land combat very fast!

As for assassinations – against whom and by whom? Is this person a Designated Military Target?

Quote:
Experience is the main key between workers there and bringing in your own.



Do they know how to operate the machinery in the correct sequence – this is not just pushing a button and it all works – this is vastly more complicated – and do they know how to fix things when they break?
The education time to get this up and running again could be in the years!
Great own goal you captured a plant – killed off its workers – and now for the next couple of years you can figure out how to turn a paperweight into a factory once more!

Quote:
I do understand that examples can help others understand the point of view, so haven't been that vocal on that point.



As per every teacher in school … if you do not understand, ask me. I am not a mind reader – be vocal and ask.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
08/28/21 09:47 PM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
So just because a world does not build military equipment does not mean it isn't economically important.



Then there is strategically important

As stated before you take the strategically important first – then after these have been taken you can mop up the less than strategically important.

This is the only way real gains can be achieved in the shortest possible times.

Also what is the GDP and tax revenue of a world that does not have a record when compared to world that has a vast population, an A ranked HPG and its Socio-industrial levels are all B or above …. My bet the magnitude would be vast.

So why bother nickel and dime the war when the real gains and the real money are located on the most strategically important worlds that in all likelihood will also have massive military industrial capabilities?

Take these take the money and take the ability of the military to rebuild – reduce their logistics to nil how far will they get in the next battle if their consumables are reduced to next to nil?

How many Mechs / vehicles out there are highly reliant on consumables to fight compared to those that are primarily energy based?

This must be taken into consideration when engaging the enemy. You do not have to damage an enemy by taking them on you can damage them by destroying their consumables and their ability to resupply – then attack them as once all consumables are gone how effective will they be now?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/28/21 11:58 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
How do you ship jobs to a world to build mechs, that have no mech factory? And you say it is done all the time in the U.S.
Do the workers just fax in their work and the mech is made by 3d printing? You physically have to be in the factory to build something like a mech. Building support items for it is not the same thing. Such items as internal structure, armor and a massive amount of other things needs to be done in the factories. Most worlds do not have such items.

All the production in the universe is not going to help when there is no transports to move the items to where they are needed. This simple concept seems to be non existent in your view.

The term deficit spending is only possible when someone else has the funds to buy your IOU. For most of the history of the succession wars, this didn't happen. War bonds only did so much. But eventually, you have to pay them back. When you default on them, people will stop buying them in the future.

This is getting old, but I will say it again. The developers did not want the IS having clan tech as it meant that their next big threat would require something more powerful. As WOB didn't have the great numbers needed to threaten everyone, they brought in higher tech. Had the IS actually have used clan tech in everything, then the WOB fight would have been a minor threat except for the nukes. Even then, a fleet of warships around worlds would have stopped that as well as the invasions into some of the capitals. It would also mean the clans would cease to be a real threat, and would have been pushed out of the IS without requiring full scale invasions. SO TPTB did track what would happen. And they wanted to keep it from spoiling their next steps.

So no numbers means no quantifiable way of saying the developers are wrong for doing things they way that did? No numbers to tell what and where they did things wrong? Imagine that.
And there are some numbers in the books. They don't have a big list saying what is what, but they do have snippets scattered around the older books. 2000 jumpships. Then 500 mechs made in the FWL, along with 130 valkyries per year. So saying there is no numbers is false. Go research the older books to gain more information on it.

Comparing the 4th war to the 3039 war is apples and oranges. There is an entirely different set of circumstances that went down. They have been explained before, but again, they don't fit your view.
4th war. Intel of the CC was pretty accurate and was exploited. 3039 war, intel was spotty at best. Comstar working with the DC removed any sure bets by the FC. Hmmmmm. Yeah, I think I was wrong. I see the same thing in both wars.

Why doesn't the clans have problems with units? Maybe because they did not require a mech for each warrior, but moved them all around as there is NO private mechs in the clans. So mechs can be moved up from another unit to fill the ones that are active. So you see they are always full, yet do not see that they have a trinary waiting for repairs. As Omnis have a standard engine, it is more likely to have spares, as you don't have dozens of models on one weight like the IS has. Less space needed to bring in spares.

Still not getting the fact that the IS had issues with spares for most mech parts? Even ammunition wasn't a sure fire bet. And then ignoring the supply issues with jumpships and such shows thru. Even making more jumpships does not mean you have dug your way out of the whole the wars have made. 20 ships sounds like a lot, yet jumpships are lost in combat due to fire. Dropships that are attached are the targets, but we know the game isn't great with accuracy, so the jumpships do take hits. Pirates don't care. They target jumpships to get them to surrender. If they don't, well examples need to be made. Gutting one might well fix a few that need parts. Hmmm....

So you might have figured out the secret to invasions and why most fail. You have to do it with the forces you have on hand. There is no mix and match units to create the perfect unit to deal with each specific scenario like the board game allows, You don't get to pull out the support company assaulting a heavy woods area. This is why casualties occur. You don't get to send in a battalion to take out a company most of the time. You are lucky to have a company there. No waiting allowed, as you need things done. Air transport is not going to help. Speeds of the craft as well as needing to remove and replace things on the units to get them to fit. Air superiority is unlikely as well, as a lot of invasions had fighters trying to wipe out each other. Much like real wars. I'm sorry Patton. I don't have a full battalion of Tigers here today, so we will have to postpone the fight until next week.

You think that Defiance had all their workers underground? The books say specifically they lived in a city away from the factory. Having an underground rail way would not prevent the enemy from stopping them. Destroying the railway or at least just occupying it would shut it down. They might even try to use it to hit the factory or set up a trap incase the defenders tried the same thing. This sort of recon is far easier then finding out where a unit is heading to and what their mission is.

Argue your legal crap all you want. The same laws are not present in the game future. Taking out the enemy's ability to produce is a valid target. Blockades do that more effectively then not. The military starves less then the population when food is cut off. The fact those very factories are turning out things that will kill your people tends to get others to forget about things like being nice to the enemy populations. This is a big part of WHY the fights happen. To protect your people, you need to keep the enemy away from them. Also, living and working in a factory like Defiance is a known target area. How many people died in WWII that lived in certain cities and had nothing to do with military production? How many times have those factories been placed by civilians to avoid being destroyed?

Governors and such get targeted for assassinations. Non military personnel like the scientists working on projects get targeted. Not part of an explosion to kill high ranking military but are the actual targets of the assassination. Even mayors, which don't order military units around get sniped.

Oh, you mean the factories don't have all the blueprints and paperwork to operate the machines on hand? They are kept in one location that could be struck and take out off of this in one shot? For the most part, the machinery is the same thing in all nations. Yes, it will take a little bit of time to figure it out, but then there is always someone ready to show others how to do it for a bonus, even if that is nothing more then their loved ones not being tortured.
levelup
08/29/21 12:41 AM
113.179.53.73

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Post deleted by Cray
Requiem
08/29/21 05:40 AM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
How do you ship jobs to a world to build mechs, that have no mech factory? And you say it is done all the time in the U.S.



As stated above - so how many parts are made in one state, then shipped to another for final construction. How many Mech plants can be said to have all the parts on world to manufacture a complete Mech – How Many have subsidiaries on other worlds – that make the weapons, and on others, the engine and gyro, and on others the communication and targeting computers, and on others the Jump Jets / armour ….
Ever considered why? As would it not be more economically feasible to make everything on one world?

The same goes for all vehicles – and all associated plants necessary to keep the military operational – by placing these plants in economically depressed areas they will have the effect of invigorating the local economy.

Quote:
All the production in the universe is not going to help when there is no transports to move the items to where they are needed. This simple concept seems to be non existent in your view.



Hey! I was correct … stated as predicted … and ignored …. What a surprise!

Quote:
The term deficit spending is only possible when someone else has the funds to buy your IOU. For most of the history of the succession wars, this didn't happen. War bonds only did so much.



Please do provide the BattleTech Universe Bonds page? As well as all information regarding the Banking industry and international derivative market?

As per Jump-ship numbers, Logistics numbers etc – Bonds also do not seem to exist.

can I just make it up as I go along?

Quote:
The developers did not want the IS having clan tech as it meant that their next big threat would require something more powerful.



Problem is that every rational engineer would say otherwise – it may take time and money but there must come a time when the IS can mass produce.

Quote:
It would also mean the clans would cease to be a real threat



And this is why you actually create think tanks to consider this at the beta stage before going to mass marketing and stop having people like me poking holes in the entire story due to a very bad story.

Quote:
So saying there is no numbers is false. Go research the older books to gain more information on it.



Question – what does 3025 production quotas tell us about the 3050 and beyond – that between these periods there was an X% increase in production due to new technology brought on by the Helm Memory Core and that is about it.

If discussing 3050 then there is requirement for 3050 analytical information!

Quote:
Comparing the 4th war to the 3039 war is apples and oranges.



And when comparing the military leadership style of all the Great Houses during 4th Succession War, the 3039 war – as the majority had the same person at the wheel for all three – how do you compare them then to how their forces acted during the initial Clan Invasion? - in this case it is Apples and Apples – your assessment please …

Quote:
Maybe because they did not require a mech for each warrior, but moved them all around as there is NO private mechs in the clans.



Can you please provide me with the book and page number where this comes from as from a sociological, psychological and military logistics perspective this completely goes against everything that has been written about the clans.

Quote:
Still not getting the fact that the IS had issues with spares for most mech parts?



When did this first occur and when did it cease? As any logical military commander – ie House Leader – this would be one of the first issues that they would want to address and fix so as to win more wars.
Or do you presume to suggest that no matter what the Inner Sphere does that they can never ever fix this – that all throughout their history they must have an issue when it comes to spare parts – whereas the Clans do not ever have to have an issue …

Quote:
Even making more jump-ships does not mean you have dug your way out of the whole the wars have made. 20 ships sounds like a lot



What happens if that 20 ships is at each yard per year! and the number of yards that are being created also increases each year ….
Say the FC start off with ….
10 yards – that’s 200 ships per year
Then in those 5 years … that’s now 1000 ships
20 yards and now 40 ships per year – that’s now 800 ships per year
Then in those 5 years … that’s now 4,000 ships
So from 3039 to 3050 we add in well over 5,000 new jump-ships all of different Classes
And this is not even getting to Warship production …

Then when Total War arrives this number increases even further … and between 3039 to 3050 the number of pirate activity where there is high volume Jump-ship traffic is next to nill – no ships lost there!

Quote:
The books say specifically they lived in a city away from the factory.



What is the time between Jump-ship shock wave that can be registered until arrival – what is the Jump Point distance in days? So how long does it take to evacuate a city to the underground bunker in days?

And how many security precautions would there be in place for an underground railway – as wouldn’t someone ensure that there is a security system in place, just in case it was ever needed?

Quote:
The same laws are not present in the game future.



And yet ethics endure – as well as the battle cry Remember Kentares!!!! …. I guess we can add a new Remember (new planet name)!!!!

This will be great for the propaganda – used to rally the troops as well a painting the states troops that committed the deed as the most evil of evil …. People throughout the IS will through up the hands decrying the act, just because of the propaganda that’s now been fed to them.

Quote:
many people died in WWII that lived in certain cities and had nothing to do with military production?



Cutris LeMay …. “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier.”

https://www.history.com/news/dresden-bombing-wwii-allies

see how history views such actions now.

Quote:
assassinations.



May I suggest research on what is and what is not a legitimate military target … during many of the wars as they seem to vary … Also suggest reading Nany Wakes’ (White Mouse) ideas on this topic …

Quote:
Oh, you mean the factories don't have all the blueprints and paperwork to operate the machines on hand?



They were all purged … and funny thing, your soldiers just murdered everyone who could have explained … so how will your liege lord think on this? and how will you explain it to your liege lord? – He ordered this vast military expedition just so he could capture a paperweight! … and all just because your troops were let off the leash! …. About now suicide will sound like a good proposition ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/29/21 11:54 AM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Have you seen the lists of where parts are made? Not even close to every world. They are made at specific plants on specific worlds. Just saying the auto plant on planet x can be converted to making mech parts isn't that simple. It can be done, but not worth it. They do require higher end manufacturing concepts, such as the internal structure requires furnaces, and without having a dedicated staff watching the employees, things like mismade ones happen a lot. Opening the door to cool the place down make substandard parts. And how many worlds are you going to try and set this up on? It also does not answer the question of how do you move those parts? Each world needs another jumpship. The best answer is to have the factories for the parts on the wolrds were you are building the units. This does little to nothing for the other worlds.
You can't just take a pick up truck and ship parts from New Avalon to Hesperus II.

You believe that making parts on worlds and not being able to move them is a good thing? It would be far better for those worlds to build things like infrastructure then parts that will just sit and take up space. And that is IF those worlds have factories that can make the parts. Otherwise, you convert things to war specs, probably removing them from building commercial goods ever again. Then comes the depression as nothing is made for sales and prices skyrocket as jobs are lost. Yeah. Great for the economy. The only that profit from this is the rich. Good call.

You can make up all everything as you go along. You can't use those made up things as fodder against canon saying it is wrong because of your made up numbers. Which happens in almost every post. Telling everyone that your numbers must be used as you demand a rewrite that follows your views. Still not getting the picture?

I haven't heard anyone say that producing clan tech was a bad idea. Most have even argued it should have been done. The cost thing is BS. They upgraded the factories to build SL tech. The elite units of each house would have clantech in all of them at the least. Even if it was nothing more then a single factory per year, clantech would be done. As stated, I think the double sinks would be one of them. The half weight missile launchers would be another, though I can see why TPTB don't want to do this. It would allow vehicles to become far more powerful, with the missile carriers being able to carry double the launchers, or armor up so they don't die as they only have 12 armor. Also, clan tech kills faster. So more units are lost that much quicker, meaning their low numbers of mech would be far worse. Take out an Atlas in one round isn't something they want.

You forgot to add in that you are not looking for production numbers for any period. You were specifically looking for 3050. Which the original statement made was the 3025 era being around 3000 a year. Following the history of the game, you can figure out a decent number from knowing what is done in 3025, and removing destroyed factories and adding in new ones.

You think the same circumstances happened in 3029 and 3039? There is only people dying being the same thing. No sure why you believe they are one and the same. I don't hear you complaining the DC got the short end of the 4th war. Takashi focusing on the Dragoons instead of taking more FS worlds should be one of the top priority complaints. But that would hurt the FS. So yeah. Takashi's performance leading the DC during the 4th war, then again during the 3039 war was about the same. Theodore was the one making the better decisions. SO when the clans hit, the DC was set to lose with Takashi in charge. So yeah. That is taking history and showing what the future holds. In that, I am wrong to say oranges.
ghostrider
08/29/21 12:20 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
There is no privately owned mechs in the clans. Mechwarriors will sometimes call for a challenge to pilot a specific mech, but if they stay in it or not is decided by the leaders. You want an instance of a clan warrior moving mechs. Take Vlad. He used a Timberwolf when he first fought Phelan. His normal ride was the Executioner. Aidan liked the Summoner, but piloted other mechs in his career. There are more examples in the game.
No matter what, the use of the mechs is up to the Khans, then galaxy commander on down the line. If your ride is needed elsewhere, you can challenge to be part of the fight, though it is not certain they would allow such a challenge.

The issue with spares first started when the factories making mech parts were destroyed in the 1st war. To my knowledge it was not solved even after the clans invaded. The clan invasion is about when I stopped buying the books. I would think that reducing the number of mechs in the RoTS era, they finally had spares.

Given the fact it takes time to make the shipyards, it is not likely to be done in anything under 5 years, and even that is short. Now the example of 20 ships was not per shipyard. That was total for the example, for the IS. The single Monolith producer is lucky to get out 1 ship per 2 years. This is stated in the dropships and jumpships book. I don't remember off hand what they said in the 3057 tro about it.
The one jumpship yard being built was suggested at 10 years. Not sure how many slips it was slated for. I know they used the lack of Germanium for the jump drives being a factor on how many could be produced, but this sounds artificial.

So many worlds perished under the nuclear fire storm. Kentares is famous for the coordinator demanding the sword be used to execute the people. Funny how Katherine brought back the horrors to Kentares.
Nukes were outlawed at one time, and what happened? The one that got it done decided to abandon the treaty.

To be honest, there is no legitimate targets for assassination. None. It makes it easy to remove problems instead of an all out war, but you are basically sending a hit man in. Where I do agree it is far better to take out someone that will cause an unjust war, then going to war. It does not change the fact that it is a targeted murder. This covering up of the law may be why wars were so popular in the past. You could kill millions and get away with it. I do agree with defending yourself. I don't agree with claiming things that aren't yours and trying to take it by force.

All purged? You mean when a factory was falling into enemy hands, they destroyed the documents on how to run it? Imagine that. Losing tech because of the scorched earth concept of factories being taken.
You still believe that no one will know how to run the factory? Where you can gain information from those moved, the DC was well known to ship local populations to worlds more under the control of the DCMS. No one said you have to kill everyone just yet. Gain the information to use the equipment and then finish the job. Most of the time, you have someone undercover that has learned how to run such equipment. And the traitors that will help always show up at some point. As the tag line in the game says. "Life is cheap" I dislike this a lot, but it follows the trend going on now. You can always find others to do the job. Make people desperate enough and they will flock to your hazardous, underpaying jobs in droves.
Karagin
08/29/21 12:29 PM
70.118.172.64

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
On the DC thing, I do believe that in Heir to the Dragon it is hinted that Takashi had a couple of strokes prior to calling Theodore back to Luithen. That would be an explanation for his problems in the 4th War. As well as his issues overall after that.

As for the rest of the ASB things, it is clear that Requiem has no idea how economics works. It doesn't make any sense to put every comment for a mech (or vehicle) on a single planet. That is asking for the enemy to blow up the whole planet.

As I said before, we are back to the same circle with him, he doesn't want to hear the information we have given him, he is set that his ALT is the ONLY way things can go. I am sure that he reads the stuff, but I doubt he fully comprehends the information.

I am all for one defending their ideas, just like I do mine, but even I can see a logical reason for something, and nothing logical has been present for the WoB storyline sorry Cray, and I am willing to add the information to my pool of knowledge. That doesn't seem to be the case for Requiem. He wants to present his ideas as canon, and I must say we are being far nicer to him than would have been done in the past around here over that issue.

So I am bowing out completely. His stuff has gone back to the same idea that his take is the only one and why aren't we just agreeing with him.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
08/29/21 03:03 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I am with you on defending ideas. I am totally against the saying canon is wrong because it doesn't fit their idea.
There are a lot of points I agree are wrong in the story line, based on what the game books provide. The fact 10 RCTs were formed for the FC RCTs, yet the production rates say that wasn't possible. I know they came from other units, but there is still some major issues with that.
The famous clantech issue is another thing that doesn't fit with the game. And lots more.
But I am not saying a rewrite and give them demands on HOW it should go on the rewrite.
A few things should happen, with one of them being the novel writers actually following the game rules. Coming up with things that aren't in the game, or have rules against it just shouldn't happen.
Kai being able to use elemental armor like a clan warrior that has been training for years in it is one such thing. The concept of pulling the torso back to give the arms a greater firing arc is another.

I believe the time has come again to ignore the purposeful ignoring of facts. I could do the same thing and say the alt is wrong because my numbers don't match, but that is entirely hypocritical. So I try to stick with canon facts.
Ignorance is not knowing, once told, then it becomes something else.
Requiem
08/29/21 05:40 PM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
Just saying the auto plant on planet x can be converted to making mech parts isn't that simple. It can be done, but not worth it.



How many times must I reiterate that establishing mech ancillary plants is not what is occurring? What is occurring is establishing a multitude of different plants, based upon their suitability, where necessary and transferring people where necessary.

If the planet has an auto plant on planet X – then convert the plant into the manufacture of a military vehicle – so is the vehicle hover or wheeled?

Moving all parts is done on a hub and spoke arrangement thus an efficient use of jump-ships. As isn’t this what it being attempted, determine their most efficient use in all areas of commerce / manufacturing – then transferring all excess craft to military fleet.

Furnaces and open doors for heating / cooling? when did 3050 plants devolve back to circa 1900-1940’s?
Quality control ? hasn’t this concept been standard and integrated into all forms of work? Thus making this this point specious.

Quote:
You can't just take a pick up truck and ship parts from New Avalon to Hesperus II.



In the event that there was a map, which indicated existing shipping routes, I would say this is highly plausible.

Quote:
Then comes the depression as nothing is made for sales and prices skyrocket as jobs are lost. Yeah. Great for the economy. The only that profit from this is the rich. Good call.



As stated above …. https://prospect.org/health/way-won-america-s-economic-breakthrough-world-war-ii/

There are numerous web pages on this topic that I am basing this on that categorically states the depression alluded to never occurred. That in reality it was through this the USA was finally able to get out of their financial crisis prior to ww2. Therefore, please find proof to back up this assertion and express why this is the case, other than just an opinion.

Quote:
Ignorance is not knowing, once told, then it becomes something else.



Quote:
You can make up all everything as you go along.



How many times have I provided real life examples as well as links to posts as evidence to back up my assertions?
Telling and demanding that I am in error without examples and posts, just opinion, is not going to change my opinion. If you want to do this than please, research the issue and provide examples and posts that reaffirm your point of view.

Quote:
I haven't heard anyone say that producing clan tech was a bad idea.



Thus we agree, by a certain date Inner Sphere weapon systems (Mech, vehicle, fighter etc) will be slowly retrofitted with Inner Sphere Clan knock offs – I would also like to add front line units will also be converted also into 100% omni units (efficiency of spare parts etc).

Quote:
Following the history of the game, you can figure out a decent number from knowing what is done in 3025



How many more times more efficient? As this is effectively going from hand made (circa 3025) to mass manufacture (circa 3050’s) utilising robots and an assembly line process – what can be considered a plausible example. The issue is to find figures on a fully automated Mech Plant as a base then increase this by a factor of 2 to 5 depending on many factors that go into its manufacturing process.

Quote:
You think the same circumstances happened in 3029 and 3039?



Homework Topic - Compare and contrast the tactics, number of units utilized etc by the House Lords in both the 4th Succession War and the War of 3039 with that of the tactics, number of units etc utilized by the same House Lords in the Clan Invasion.

Is there an obvious difference that appeared strange – and why do you believe so?

For example – Hanse Davion
Where is the massive and daring strikes that used time to perfection, that was so common in the 4th Succession war - where is the planning and the intellect that was so commonly seen – where is the fox! as it is clear that this person is absent (MIA) during the Clan Invasion!

Quote:
There is no privately owned mechs in the clans.



And the majority of the regular forces for each great house? Those purchased by the state were they privately owned?
Please explain – Omni Mech A is owned two days a week by one unit and the remainder by another? Where the two units must perpetually move together or there is an issue over which target world, and unit, this Mech is to go with?
Then on paper we have an over inflated military – in reality this could be much smaller?

As for rides – what about on Kathil during the FedCom Civil war - wasn’t a certain mech swapped between lances? Then there is the issue in the Kell Hounds didn’t a certain officer (Daniel Allard) become dispossessed only to be provided with a Wolfhound?
This is not a clan only system– all military units and their commanders will be looking to optimize their units through trade, battlefield salvage or upgrades as they come along.

Inter military unit swapping is normal SOP for all – Clans and IS.

Quote:
The issue with spares …To my knowledge it was not solved even after the clans invaded.



Here I disagree – this is a critical issue within all IS military that must be solved. With the Arrival of the Helm Memory Core this would have been very high on list to solve ASAP.
Thus, In my opinion, it must be solved prior to the arrival of the Clans.

Quote:
Given the fact it takes time to make the shipyards, it is not likely to be done in anything under 5 years, and even that is short.



And yet during the Star League Era it was that short – The Pyramids – The Great Wall of China …. There are many examples throughout history where through manpower humanity has achieved what was believed to be impossible.
And 20 ships total is not even an increase of one jumpship per yard per year!
What is occurring in the shipyards is also the same as that which is occurring in Mech production – a vast increase in the number of, and new models.
Again look at the post above for shipyards prior to and during WW2 – a vast expansion in the number of yards and the number of ships being produced.
Have a good look at Los Alamos, New Mexico – and others. The ability to manufacture when necessary is staggering.

Quote:
Funny how Katherine brought back the horrors to Kentares.



Really? Where as history points the blame at Marcus Roland – 5th Donegal.

Quote:
there is no legitimate targets for assassination



Operation Foxley / Valkyrie – Adolf Hitler
Operation Anthropoid - Reinhard Heydrich

Quote:
All purged?



Grasping at straws? How many months years even to restart a factory.

Quote:
Theodore Kurita



He was on Luthien – it fell to him to stop the Clans – so where is the man who used the Ghost Units to such effect?

Quote:
It doesn't make any sense to put every comment for a mech (or vehicle) on a single planet.



Please re-read exactly what was written.

Quote:
He wants to present his ideas as canon



How many times have I said this is not the case … including within this forum!
Only to be accused again and again
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/29/21 11:27 PM
45.51.181.83

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
You have not read Objective Raids at all? The layout of Lushan factories specifically state that workers get disciplined for leaving the large mech door open to let in cool air. Page 185 under Forges. So yes. Workers do perform dumb things when they think it is safe.

Are you trying to be funny? You can not drive from New Avalon to Hesperus II in a pick up truck. You need a jumpship and a few months to get there.

The assertations you provide in game format is inaccurate at best. Little is accurate when providing canon material. I can link to pages that suggest things that I know aren't true. It doesn't make things right. Sun Tzu did NOT come up with all the wisdom he wrote down. He just took what was already known and wrote it down in one book. Yet the way things are presented, it makes it sound like no one knew anything before he did.
With being educated in the U.S. I find some things suggested as propaganda from others around the world. I know not everything taught to me was accurate, but I have less faith in education systems around the world.

By the way, the U.S. deficit came from the spending on war. The war bonds had to be paid back, and spending money on credit continued after the wars. This is because taxes were not collected, as people did not have the funds shortly after a great deal of people lost their jobs.

So the automated system that build the Valkyrie isn't valid. Nice to know.
Oh yeah. You read all the books and didn't read that one. Interesting how things like this keep coming up.

4th war. Hanse had the intel on what was where and had Max's intel department shooting darts in the dark to figure out what was going on.
3039 war. Comstar made accurate intel on the DC impossible. The fact that the DC was sold mechs by Comstar didn't get known until after those mechs just appeared. The fact Yakuza were piloting those mechs took Hanse by surprise because Takashi would NEVER have done so himself. Takashi's strategies were known to Hanse.
The clans. NO intel at all was being received to even begin to understand the enemy at first. The fact Nondi was running the LC show also says that even if they did, the truth would be twisted and ignored by the LCAF.
So yeah. It was all the same thing with each war.

What do you know. Trinaries and even Clusters were traveling together so when a winning bid was made, they could move the mechs to the unit to fight, while the losers of the bid sat in orbit complaining about being stuck on the ships without a mech. The exception MIGHT be those that were bid out last. They MIGHT be called into battle as a loss of honor for the winning commander.
The Kell Hounds had spare units. They also were able to take prize units and put them to field as well.
And there are privately owned mechs in the regular armies. It is part of a deal the mech warrior had with the unit and nation.

And your statement answers the question of Daniel Allard. To become deposessed means losing your personal mech. And with that, you are talking about a merc unit, not a normal house unit. Apples and oranges yet again.

The SL era. Massive amounts of supplies on hand with thousands of trained workers skilled in the very construction job that is required.
3025. Most people that are trained are already working in the few ship yards left. No large scale force waiting to defend the site, as there isn't enough to adequately cover the border much less 3 jumps deep.
Not sure where you got 20 ships over 20 years from. The statement was even 20 extra ships per year isn't enough to dig the IS out of the deficit the succession wars created.

Funny. It was suggested that taking over a factory means all information on how to run that factory dies with the work crew. How is this if the information isn't purged? But again, the context solved that issue, yet it was ignored to try and get out of the facts.

Not sure what is going on with asking where the man that used the ghost regiments to great effect is.

Reread the statement? You want a listing of every last piece of equipment to every unit on every world. You also want to know who is on shore leave or off on a secret mission every day of a war or just before one. There is no need to reread that. This is trying to side step the fact that units have units out of action for a length of time, and don't want to admit they are not at full strength every time they are deployed. This throws off your entire concept of numbers.

When you say that the alt proves canon wrong, then it is very much saying the ideas are canon. Saying the alt is the ONLY VIABLE way to fix canon suggest as much as well. Not sure where the quote came from as I looked thru the past few comments and didn't see it, so I suspect there is more to that context then shown.
Requiem
08/30/21 04:37 AM
1.158.137.81

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
You have not read Objective Raids at all? The layout of Lushan factories specifically state



Objectives Raids book No 1665
Lushann Industrials Limited is on page 165 - the workers in this section are often disciplined for leaving the large northern door open to let in cool air.

Isn't this both a HR issue by not ensuring the building has an adequate AC and an issue for its three platoon strength Lushann Security Force for not ordering adequate locks that can be tied into the security net - having someone stationed at the door - placing a camera on the door? or all three.

Quote:
You can't just take a pick up truck and ship parts from New Avalon to Hesperus II.



Did I really have to put Ha Ha after this?

Quote:
The assertations you provide in game format is inaccurate at best.



And yet when asserting a proposition this requires enough evidence and logic to convince an individual that there is a more reasonable assertion to believe when attempting to disprove it.

Quote:
Little is accurate when providing canon material. I can link to pages that suggest things that I know aren't true. It doesn't make things right.



Then state your case as to why.

Quote:
Sun Tzu



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu

Yes, it may have been ‘common knowledge’ and yet he is credited with being the first writer to actually document these philosophies and to use it as a teaching device.
Thus he demonstrated a level of wisdom no one else was capable of in collating the information an documenting it for the preservation of future generations.

Quote:
education Vs propaganda



Then undertake independent research – read from other sources – watch more documentaries from around the world – at the minimum you will come to see how others see the US from around the world.

Quote:
bonds



Yes, I agree they do exist IRL – the problem is how can they be valued within the game – that is unless there is a massive amount of financial information required or the game decides to link this to an IRL system.
Or Taxes can be considered – but again as this information has never been provided the idea of understanding Capital Revenue and Capital Expenses is all but impossible.

That is unless your GM makes it up as they go along …

Quote:
Hanse Davion – Intelligence



Big MAC – Sarna.
Ghost Regiments of the DCMS

Inaccurate or incomplete information is a constant in war – and yet to be an effective Commanding General you must be willing to place your military in harms’ way.

What is envisioned in the Clan Invasion is total timidity – in in no way represents the true fighting style of Hanse.

As Takashi put it best when it comes to Hanse, That you must constantly fight to your best, lest Hanse will go straight for your jugular and rip your throat out!

The Hanse, as described here, is absent from the Invasion!

Quote:
NO intel at all was being received to even begin to understand the enemy at first



Problem is any gun camera footage – personal reports received from survivors is information and the following department must also be considered
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intelligence_Secretariat
Then when you consider that the Clan Invasion – first wave started early March 3050; and the Invitation to the leadership Conference by Wolf’s Dragoons – Tharkad was 10 November – As the Dragoons actually dispatched people to invite people to this meeting – moths of wasted time by not sending a HPG message - And then the Outreach meeting commenced 12 January 3051.
At this point the Clans have completed their 4th wave and the Year of Peace is just over one month old!

Sorry but this once again infuriates me if any conference is to be called Wolf’s Dragoons they should have supplied all Militaries involved with an intelligence breakdown of the Clans, their culture etc, as soon as the Clans entered the Inner Sphere. By not doing so the have hampered all Inner Sphere defensive operations for the first 4 waves !

Also circa January 3051 how can all House Lords be on Outreach when at this point all militaries should be instituting a massive rest and refit program and a preparation for the resumption of the Clan war – ie a massive civil engineering program as well as a massive number of meetings and plans to get ready for the start of the next wave etc.

Thus I am greatly disappointed with timing here! First the Dragoons should explain why they took so long to confess and then apologize for not coming forward earlier (there should be a real good reason for this).

Post Meeting – they must also repent – to the front lines with them! Or they must agree to become an Oppfor Unit for all Units that are going to sent to the front.

Quote:
The Kell Hounds had spare units.



Not at this stage they didn’t! remember he begged not to be dispossessed and take a desk job … he said he would take any Frankenstein Mech ….
And mercenary Units didn’t engage in trade?

Quote:
The SL era. Massive amounts of supplies on hand with thousands of trained workers skilled in the very construction job that is required.



And how long would that take to train thousands of workers once all the documents have been accessed? It is just a question of resources.

Again not that long!

Quote:
Not sure what is going on with asking where the man that used the ghost regiments to great effect is.



The same as Hanse Davion – Theodore is also MIA from the Clan Invasion when it comes to some of the initial strategy requirements for the Invasion.

Quote:
Reread the statement?



This relates to why certain parts for certain vehicles are made in special voting locations throughout the USA – Why else to get it through government! If you put a plant in their district that provides their voters with employment then they will allow the vehicle to proceed through committee and allow it to begin to be built – you scratch my back by helping me to get re-elected and I will allow your vehicle out of committee and building can commence as per order request …. How hard was this?

Quote:
When you say that the alt proves canon wrong, then it is very much saying the ideas are canon.



Er…. No it does not!

Remember my rant – everyone has the right to make and choose what they want to do, be with who they want to be with and in what timeline they want to be … that it is not up to me or canon but the player to decide their game …. That everyone has the right to make their game as they want it to be … they have the right to change canon if they disagree with it to whatever they want it to be ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
Extra information
1 registered and 101 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 13114


Contact Admins Sarna.net