Requiem
09/04/21 05:17 AM
1.158.137.81
|
During any age where the warship is in numbers, and nuclear weapons are being used in prodigious numbers, I do hereby postulate that in such eras ground forces should be considered less effective and by default their commanders also should be considered of lesser importance to their Military doctrine
That is during this age the warship is the king of the battlefield and Naval ranks must be considered far more prestigious than that of ground forces – thus any head of the SLDF must be, by default, a naval commander rather than a ground army commander.
Thus, for example, if Kerensky was to be commander of the SLDF shouldn’t he be in the black sea navy rather than that of being in the army?
Once a warship assumes the high ground – that militaries forces now possesses ...
• Greater intelligence in the form of real time evaluation as to their enemy’s position and movement.
• The possibility to use – from that point forward - orbital bombardment, nuclear missile strikes via missile or aerospace fighter upon their enemy.
In such a case the only act for the opposition is to retreat into a castle facility that has the ability to withstand multiple orbital bombardments, as well as nuclear – whilst defending against any insurgent strikes by commando or regular forces. It must also possess a communication system such as a HPG / Black Box to immediately call for naval support.
That is unless they have ICBMs that are designated as land-based ship killers – thus is the ship in range? Does it possess fighters to strike the isle down or does it possess an anti-missile system that can strike at these missiles? Or given the velocity a ship can generate whist traversing to the Jump point can it create a micro-burst of velocity and just move beyond the missiles range? Or can the ship detect these silos and direct their ordinance against them?
In all reality any battle whose opposition has naval support has an immediate strategic advantage over those forces that do not.
Thus, during the age of warship production – shouldn’t this have gone hand in hand with that of the production of the castle to defend any forces from that of the Warships main armaments?
Also, any battle in which a warship is involved shouldn’t this be over and done with by during the 10 minute - 1 hour mark if the catch the enemy any distance from a castle facility to protect them?
Also isn’t there a mech missing from this age? If the Enemy has cruise nuclear tipped missiles shouldn’t there be a Mech armed with anti-cruise system – a arrow IV anti-cruise missile system that can also be used to shoot down aerospace forces - similar to a SAM missile system?
So at this stage I would like to ask where are all the castles built during such an age as they must have been manufactured in prodigious numbers by all forces ….
Thus any war during this age – shouldn’t any war have been completed very quickly given that one side has a vast naval superiority to that of its enemy?
Also shouldn’t ComStar / WOB have recognised this and as such rather than having vast ground forces shouldn’t they have manufactured vast naval forces?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/04/21 11:57 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Nukes should be the absolute LAST option used. Non nuke bombardment should be second to last. This is the way things were supposed to go. Not sure if the SLDF was the first to use the nukes in the periphery or not. This is only morally important as they could have used the excuse that the enemy used them first.
The issue with Naval personnel being in overall charge of the military being in charge means orbital bombardment would be used far more often then it was. The concept is why waste manpower on a ground fight, when you can just wipe out the enemy from orbit?
As this is a ground game, the entire premise of it changes with the concept of solving everything with space craft.
This is NOT saying that the best defense of worlds is to prevent the enemy from even seeing it, much less landing on it. Far from it. But the game is not about aerospace.
As pointed out before the SDS wiki entry states that ground based anti capital ship weapons WERE not only possible but part of that weapons system. That means there should have been at least the ground batteries on worlds. They would be targeted first when the fight comes, but yet not a single mention in the games fluff, stories, or source books have suggested that even the supporting base structures exist. The SDS retcon was used to avoid Terra from being hit with a nuclear hailstorm by the houses to destroy WOB. Now that all the old rules for jump distances is out the window, it removes the concept of borders beyond what the batteries did.
Why would you store all your supplies in a castle, knowing a single bombardment could destroy it all? Scattering them in little caches across the world would be a better solution. That is if you can't defend the world from having warships parking over them.
The question on if the AMS can shoot down capital missiles needs an answer. If they can, it removes a large part of the threat of missiles in naval combat, meaning sitting back firing missiles isn't an option anymore. Not unless you think you can overwhelm the defenses with massive missile barrages.
Also, the possibility of the Large Pulse Laser being used as such comes to mind. They have some range and the damage done is the best of the pulse lasers. It would also question on if the flak ammunition from LBX and silver bullet weapons would work. The Partisan says there is such an ammunition load back in the TRO:3026. The Laser AMS should be more efficient in this as well.
The time frame is what would determine if Comstar/WOB would start constructing warships. Before the Helm Core and the invasion, they would avoid it, as the houses would KNOW they had SL tech beyond the HPG network. At least until the 4th war, they were pretty much acting neutral. The cost of making and maintaining them kept them from being made. Comstar, though rich, did have limited funds to deal with things. They did have their projects going that cost them. Though it is a bit stupid to think they were looking for the SLDF without having those very vessels in the exploration fleets.
|
Requiem
09/04/21 05:58 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Nukes should be the absolute LAST option used. Non nuke bombardment should be second to last.
Supposed to be the last option, and yet
And yet at the commencement of hostilities for the Reunification War – The Amaris / Kerensky War – The Succession wars … There were no rules as to the conduct of WMDs, none, the First Lord for the Reunification War publicly removed this law!
War is now winning by any means necessary, or how else are we supposed to explain 95% of the SLDF obliterated by a vastly smaller force – Then there is the massive collateral damage to the IS that resulted in the extinction of advanced technology. How else are we supposed to explain this without the massive proliferation of WMDs?
Quote:
As this is a ground game, the entire premise of it changes with the concept of solving everything with space craft.
Jade Falcons – threatening to obliterate a FC unit via orbital bombardment unless they surrender …
Jihad – Death of the Master? ….
And then
Caleb Davion and the Palmyra Disaster
If this is a ‘ground game’ these events would say otherwise.
Quote:
But the game is not about aerospace.
Then why are there warships, Jump-ships, Drop-ships, aerospace fighters, conventional fighters, VTOL craft etc in the game at all?
Quote:
SDS
Problem is there are Warships in the game – there is no way of getting around this – they have the ability to sterilize vast areas of land with next to no threat from the majority of all planets in the IS (with the exception of those very few worlds that do have an SDS).
Thus the majority of all worlds do not have any form of naval defence.
So, why have warships or SDS in the game if you are not going to use them?
And as for an SDS system they have massive flaws – that unless they are shielded from all forms of detection equipment (which becomes obsolete the moment they open up and fire) and unless they have an energy weapon with greatest range possible they are just a target on a target range to which the naval officers will use as target practice as they will most surely will have a ship with a weapons package that can out range the SDS system – that is they will just stand off and obliterate the SDS system the same as shooting clay targets for target practice.
Theoretically the only way a SDS system works is if they can close the range – fast – whilst inflicting and sustaining massive damage in the process.
As they are drones this therefore requires an AI system that is also shielded form EMP attack, as any attempt to remote control them is a vulnerability that can be exploited (Shut down at the best or hack and take control of at their worst – when it comes to computer warfare).
Also with an AI system – can a ship also have an AI system designed to predict the movement of the Drone AI and respond accordingly? Thus kill of the drones more effectively? ie. are we now down to a situation as whom has the best AI – surveillance equipment and the greatest range possible?
As for ground based naval weapons – wouldn’t their arc of fire be extremely limited to that of a Naval Ship that has the ability to fire at any ground-based facility at a far greater arc than just (virtually) firing straight up from any land-based facility?
Quote:
Castle
You would not place all your forces / supplies in a single castle and they must be able to survive multiple strikes otherwise constructing them becomes pointless.
Quote:
Naval AMS
Wouldn’t this be standard on every ship as wouldn’t it also be used as an anti-aerospace fighter weapon system as well?
And if not then wouldn’t every Navy be experimenting with one? as it is the basis for defending every warship from such an attack
Quote:
The time frame is what would determine if Comstar/WOB would start constructing warships
If the aim is to take over the IS as a Blakean Theocracy wouldn’t they start construction upon their hidden five worlds as soon as possible, as wouldn’t their goal be similar or if not greater than that of the SLDF’s navy – also they did have hundreds of years to begin and maintain a high degree of output as they never lost their technology as the Great Houses did.
The five hidden worlds prove that they have the ability to hide vast resources – so why not hide vast fleet resources at the same time?
As for limited funds – these funds are only for within the IS – why would you need funds at all for a hidden worlds population? As you don’t, hidden worlds, can operate without the need for a economy liked to the IS.
Quote:
as the houses would KNOW they had SL tech beyond the HPG network.
And yet the five hidden worlds and all the advanced tech belonging to the WOB remained a mystery until they attacked the IS.
As well as, as per ghostrider’s above post, the very vessels in the exploration fleets remained hidden for all these years.
There is absolutely no way the Great Houses would know - as if they did wouldn’t their first reaction be to demand the return of such knowledge?
Thus does it stand that in any age where there are no restrictions on how a warship can be used in war would they use their weapons on any ground forces from the start?
My hypothesis would be to say yes they would, on any legitimate military target.
Thus placing the Navy in a far more important role than that of the Army.
The Black Sea Fleet would be the senior military unit and by extension is they who would rule and not an army man unless there was some sort of a rotation schedule for the top job.
All IS military strategy therefore must be predicated upon the single premise as to whether there is a naval vessel in orbit or not!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/04/21 08:54 PM)
|
ghostrider
09/04/21 08:43 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The examples given of the warship and nuke use is what?
It isn't constant. The way the developers use them is to change the game to fit their new desires. They are not used constantly. I do agree they tend to use them when they write themselves into a corner and can't figure out how to make something a bigger threat without resorting to them.
But it is far worse that mechs tend to be the bringers of doom to worlds more then warships and nukes. The battles claim innocent lives as well as destroy cities and such. That is the product of all warfare. Even the limited ones like the trials the clans hold.
They could have started using asteroids to destroy worlds instead of nukes and warships. Worse, they could use bio and chemical weapons as well. Those are far worse, as they don't always kill rather quickly, and there isn't much chance to get away or live with the results.
What is the game without the means to move between worlds and contest that with flying vehicles? And no war game beyond WWI would be complete without some sort of aircraft. The reason jumpships and dropships are needed, as they have to be used to move those forces to other worlds. It is that simple. Fighters are used to attack and defend those very vessels. The very question of why vehicles are in the game comes up with this. They are supposed to be so fragile compared to mechs, that they are a waste of money. We know this isn't true, but the whole concept is the issue.
The SDS section makes me wonder if you thought it thru before saying anything. It is not just stationary ground batteries. They run all the ECM, counter measures and such that everyone else is using. Outranging them is only possible if you use but one of the systems they envelope. They also include suicide dropships, fighters, and such meant to ram and explode ships, as well as dropping things like missiles and mines on the way it. The target ship will have to move forward thru such things as they get close. The game does not really cover this properly with the rules. These are the same vessels that the invading forces use, so if they are susceptible to ECM and EMPs then so are the attackers. Hacking into them should be impossible, as the attack commands should lock out all input into their systems. Nothing on RAM, only ROM. So hard coded that can not be changed without physical contact with the computer.
Yes, some will say they can get people aboard to do it, but this is more fantasy then the game is.
But I will answer the question of why have them. Threat value and the cost to stop them. It is a poor way to go, but effective.
The AMS issue is something that should have been dealt with long before Naval missiles were done. It is a hole in the game logic, as it would be standard on all ships that could carry them. Even if they were naval grade weights, IE 10 tons instead of .5 tons. And depending on the programing, they might well be used against fighters as well as missiles.
Comstar actually STOPPED building warships before the 3025 era. They had them when the rest of the IS didn't, as well as could start making them when ever they wanted to. They didn't need the hidden worlds. This is why it was said depending on the time frame.
The use of warships is one like nukes. No one wanted to use them against worlds as it would cause everyone else to use them. Each faction had to decide when and what could be used. As stated, nukes did not disappear in the game. They could have been used at any time. But they weren't. There is no way, besides the threat of everyone using them, to keep them from being used.
The argument of the IS using nukes against the clans comes down to a simple fact. If you don't have the books telling you everything about the enemy and what they had. a single use might well have caused the enemy to start using them. A lack of knowledge would make sure that you didn't start something you couldn't stop. The succession wars supposedly taught the house this. Without knowing where the enemy is based at, which being thought of as pirates wouldn't have one, what do you target? How do you know if they would have far more ways to hit you. As the IS didn't nor couldn't watch every uninhabited system, there is always a way to sneak into the inner territories to strike. Deep raids have shown this time after time. With the forces available to the IS, they could not guard every location that a ship could get into a system.
Logistics plays a major role here. Food is required to be brought into a lot of worlds. Luthien supposedly being polluted, shouldn't be able to grow enough food on their own, so it would have to be shipped in. Taking out that food supply means a slow death. You can sit there with all the forces of the DCMS, and still lose.
But the reply was meant to suggest a few things, not start the standard argument.
|
Requiem
09/04/21 09:56 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
It isn't constant. The way the developers use them is to change the game to fit their new desires. They are not used constantly.
Then how does this explain the Amaris-Kerensky War as well as the damage during the Succession Wars?
The only way is via a black sea fleet and WMDs.
Quote:
SDS
What happens if a ship just stands off at extreme range, beyond the range of the SDS, and just uses any target (other than a fighter) as target practice for the main guns – as for the fighter, clan ships have fighters themselves – or the ship should have a batteries built in a hedgehog fashion (with 2 or three independent ranges) to thwart any fighter etc (a pre-version of a AMS that can also take on fighters). Agree – there needs to be an AMS system circa Star League era and beyond …
In my personal opinion – unless the current SDS is upgraded they are a boondoggle – too expensive for any real value – the cost should be transferred to that of a new warship rather than a SDS system.
Their application per world is limited and quite ineffective.
Quote:
COMSTAR and the warship
If the aim is to ride out like Valkyries and establish a Blakean Theocracy whist at the same time looking over your shoulder for any sign of the old SLDF … why not create a massive armada that can withstand any challenge and bring forward the great coming of the Blakean age to mankind sooner than expected (satire)?
ComStar has had how many centuries to build this armada – to me it sounds like a wise precaution rather than a Com-Guard unit limited by only ground forces which also limits any future response.
No for me the way forward is once more with a Black Sea fleet.
Quote:
The use of warships is one like nukes. No one wanted to use them against worlds as it would cause everyone else to use them.
And yet during the Amaris-Kerensky War and the Succession Wars the only logical conclusion was that all sides were using them in such a manner.
It was not until everyone signed and obeyed a set of rules as to the conduct of war can we say such practices became … obsolete … for a time, and until someone believed the only way forward was once more through more destructive means.
As long as they exist in the game with the ability to inflict such damage there will always be someone willing to use them in such a manner …
Quote:
If you don't have the books telling you everything about the enemy and what they had. a single use might well have caused the enemy to start using them.
And where is Wolfs Dragoons during all this uncertainty?
And when you do know everything about the Clans what then? Still willing to do nothing while the Clans use an orbital bombardment on you – or are you, like the 13 days Cuban Missile Crisis, going to find a way to communicate – which at this stage seems to be in a language they understand – violence and the Nuke!
Or do nothing and appear weak to them and invite more acts of barbarity!
Quote:
Deep Raids
And yet the Clans move in one direction only striking at those worlds in front of them …
Quote:
Logistics plays a major role here.
For the IS - Yes.
For the Clans – No.
During the Clan Invasion there appears to be a disparity between the treatment of logistics between that of the IS and the Clans.
The Clans however appear to never consider understanding logistics as a means of fighting war – their only understanding was the enemy unit on front of them. A point that was missing from the writings of the Clan Invasion – and was never exploited by the IS - a point that detracts from the canon story, in my opinion!
As for the reply, this was just a personal observation – and was not intended to initiate a ‘standard argument’.
As if during an age where WMDs are being utilized en mass – the bunker and the Castle system seem to be the only refuge – so where are they when you consider the duration of the Succession Wars for example, and the damage they wrought?
Also considering the time it takes for a single warship to inflict damage upon an enemy world the question needs to asked as to why the succession wars took so long. Wouldn’t it be more realistic to assume these wars where both short and extremely brutal?
In my opinion in space the only real primary military force is that of the Navy – with the army acting in a secondary role. I understand the original intention of the game to put the Army front and centre when there were no warships – However times change and we need to change with the times, thus with the return of warships there can be little room for debate - either create a mechanism to restrict their use as a WMD platform against planets or shift the focus of the game to that of the black sea Navy and accept the new reality of the situation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/04/21 10:05 PM)
|
ghostrider
09/05/21 12:09 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The Amaris war and the first 2 succession wars were supposed to show all that the survival of all means avoiding nuclear strikes. The Warships died out in the 2nd war, so that was a bit forgotten for a while. The statement of all signing something is incorrect in this case. The IS simply decided to stop using nukes, as glowing worlds did nothing for anyone. The Ares Conventions were signed and tossed by the main nation that wrote it, the TH/SL.
The SDS was a poor retcon into the story line. The fact that NO ONE, including Comstar, knew of it until it was used to wipe out the merc forces moving into the Sol system which included SL descendants shows this. It was also done at a time where the clans were part of those forces to strike as well. I would say they did a great job at removing warships in the systems they were operational in, but I think this might be more due to plot armor then actual effectiveness. The desire to remove certain units may well be why it worked so well. Then again, if it worked right, this would explain why the SLDF lost so many units. Warships and dropships all died with all hands on board.
The story line deals with the Dragoons about what was known about the clans. The fact they were at war with the DC should explain why they didn't deal with the DC, and the FC should have been able to handle themselves, but seemed to have Nondi doing things wrong. It was stated she started ignoring the RCT concepts and went back to the LC's old ways. Large plodding mechs that couldn't catch much.
The main units that did decently against the clans were those that were from the FS portion.
Funny thing about the ONE bombardment during the invasion. It never happened again. The ship was removed from the IS. The house leaders didn't know the captain was disciplined for using it, but we know from the books what happened. This was a single city, not like the DC and CC using poison against multiple cities often. If it was the FS that did it, nothing would have been said about it.
Actually, the clans only striking forward is incorrect. The front lines did have to retake worlds behind them, and did hit the flank worlds as well.
It is also stated that the clan front lines started taking supplies from their PGCs in order to keep close to fully operational. So that one is inaccurate as well. Wether you want to believe it or not is the issue.
The castles were not effective against the WMDs as much as you want to believe. Those were among the FIRST things hit with any sort of invasion. If they were effective, then invasions would not have happened. They fell. Once the nukes and bombardments stopped, then the castles started making sense. Mainly HQ's as they were still effective when not being hit by the big guns.
I believe you are confusing wars with battles. Wars take a lot longer to fight, as most fight over the same territories several times before one side is able to move the goal posts. Part of this goes to the old reasons of why land battles were pretty stagnant. The lack of carried ammo meant you could take the enemy position yet have to return to your own supply depots to reload. This is still true with mechs for the most part. Yes, energy only units are there, but you have to replace the armor as well. And since we know how slow they actually move, trying to hit Phoenix from Los Angeles means over a day with driving a unit, sometimes more. Even 60 kph is not that fast. The big movers don't fly much faster with some ground units being able to outrun them. The aircrafts advantage is being able to go over the mountains without slowing.
As stated before, and seems to have to be continually repeated, this is not a space war game. It would be much easier and less frustrating to just play something else, as making Battletech into one is going to be a major failure.
|
Requiem
09/05/21 05:31 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The fact that NO ONE, including Comstar, knew of it until it was used to wipe out the merc forces moving into the Sol system which included SL descendants shows this.
Problem – the SDS system was established pre Amaris-Kerensky War, and all of this illicit technology was still available within their vaults (which begs the question as to what else is in there) – so why not re-create it if you are as paranoid as the master / WOB when it comes to Comstar attempting retaking Terra … so where was the reconnaissance prior to invasion? Why engage in an ad-hoc invasion unless you are an irredeemable commanding officer … ?
As for working … would it have worked so efficiently if the attacking force had known and then fired at extreme range rather than closing in and forcing an engagement at almost point-blank range?
Quote:
The story line deals with the Dragoons about what was known about the clans.
Problem – their Khan ordered them to assist the IS – so where is this assistance. Why didn’t they let the IS know prior to the invasion? Why take 10 months into the invasion for them to covey this information …
Being at war with the DC still does not adequately explain why they couldn’t explain the FRR or the FC.
As for Nondi – she is NOT the commanding officer ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Armies
Marshal of the Armies is Morgan Hasek-Davion (3049-3060) – “In the absence of both the First Price and Archon the Marshal of the Armies served as supreme commander of the Federated Commonwealth’s military … in a crisis, assuming direct command over a military operation …”
Nondi’s rank, therefore, was below that of Morgan during the Clan Invasion! So the idea she decide to use the old ways against the Clans goes right out the window as Morgan has direct control over her!
I would also like to point out that Morgan’s command acumen that we see during the 4th Succession was totally missing during the initial Clan Invasion … can I ask if the TPTB had a set of special rooms set aside for all the greatest Generals of the IS at this time, so that they would not interfere with all the B and C rank Generals who were just winging it (satire)?
Quote:
Funny thing about the ONE bombardment during the invasion. It never happened again.
Funny thing about that ONE bombardment – the Falcons threatened the FC with a second bombardment and I still have not received an answer to the simple question as to how the IS House Lords came to know that the Clans would never engage in such a bombardment again, as both the hunting dog and the Ouija boards were inconclusive with an answer (satire).
So what we are saying here is all the Great Lords were willing to take it right up ……………. and do nothing afterwards? Really? Sorry but I really find this very hard to believe as from this point onwards their credibility as warrior houses (as far as the Clans are concerned) is shot to pieces – they have no credibility, so can I start handing out the white feathers now?
Quote:
Actually, the clans only striking forward is incorrect. The front lines did have to retake worlds behind them, and did hit the flank worlds as well.
And then we look at a map and ….
Quote:
It is also stated that the clan front lines started taking supplies from their PGCs in order to keep close to fully operational.
At this point can anyone explain why there wasn’t a dedicated campaign against the PGCs?
I would like to point out how few in numbers the PGCs were – so taking supplies from them would have absolutely no real impact when it comes the number of front-line invasion units who require logistical support.
Also, if this was the case then this indicates that the Clan(s) in question’s logistical issues are hitting rock bottom – thus why do we never see this in any of the novels etc … when it comes to their continued invasion / fight with the Com Guards?
Quote:
The castles were not effective against the WMDs as much as you want to believe.
And yet many were able to survive multiple nuclear hits … and then there are those facilities built underground that never fell …. Hesperus, for example … So I guess it comes down to where and how they were constructed.
The fact is that all sides should have manufactured vast numbers, and yet for some reason they do not exist.
Quote:
I believe you are confusing wars with battles.
Sorry no – if worlds can be depleted of their military in very quick order by mass warships how long should it take to kill of a Houses military if they incorrectly use their warship assets?
Quote:
this is not a space war game.
Then all warships and all warship incidents throughout time should be erased and replaced with something else!
TPTB put them in the game and made them Canon - so how is anyone going to remove them from the game now?
Limiting their numbers does not remove them …
And putting them in a box and trying to ignore them like they are in Coventry is also pointless …
Since they are in the game how will we deal with this fact?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/05/21 12:26 PM
45.51.181.83
|
I believe you missed the point. Comstar knew of the system. It is possible the Dragoons didn't, but the other clans should have known about it. There were parts of the system still in place after the wars. As there were spies in ROM for both sides, it is not likely this was missed. Also, any traffic going thru Sol should have spotted some of it. A few war manufacturers were on Terra themselves, building and selling to the houses, as I have not heard of Aldis being shut down when WOB took over.
Incase you don't know, Aldis makes Demolishers and Behemoth tanks on Terra and ships them out.
The disclosure of once being a part of the invaders would not have enticed the house leaders to actually listen to them before the threat was known. The return of the SLDF had to be shown as very important, otherwise, the houses would have fallen on the Wolves to destroy them. This also does NOT tell how the Dragoons would be helping the houses. It is possible especially with the Black Widows TRINARY showing the clan tactics to the IS. Yes. That was active before the clan invasion.
Showing each house where they were weak would have been going on. The fact Wolfnet was capable of gaining intel that the other houses couldn't should have gotten more attention and didn't.
So the threat of a bombardment is the same thing as an actual bombardment? Then all war is one continual bombardment. Threats are always used to keep people in line. Or to surrender without a fight. The use of nukes stopped as all knew everyone would start using them again. So if you didn't want to be nuked, you stockpiled them, but didn't use them until someone else did. And the fact that if the CO had called the bluff, the threat wouldn't have worked. SO technically, the CO of the world's forces disobeyed orders to protect the world from invaders. This did not mean surrendering in order to avoid damage.
Look at the map. Is that not accurate in keeping with the clan goals? They were striking for Terra. They were NOT trying to take the entire IS during the invasion. This is called sticking to the objective. And what do you know? When they were stopped, they spread out some. I guess the strike at Coventry didn't happen, as it wasn't in a straight line to Terra.
It was stated why there was no concentrated campaign against the PGCs. The fact that the IS had no real solid intel on where the front lines where, they could not risk losing a huge chunk of forces being caught by the Omnis and the PGC. It was also told of the lack of ships to move troops around in order to do so. Some how this continues to be forgotten and re asked.
Again. The clans rarely used their entire unit. So when one unit took losses or had shortages, then they would pull from other units in the parent group. Alpha Galaxy has 3-5 clusters. Each cluster had 3-5 trinary/binary. Only in fights like the retaknig of Twycross did they use more then a cluster or two. So taking supplies from those that are not bid into a fight happened. The IS tended to avoid this, as discipline problems would arise. The clans did what they were told to do by their superiors. If bid for a fight, you fought. If bid to sit on the side lines, you complained, waiting for the next battle. Some did challenge and were shut down, as all knew, you could lose a fight with a foe if everyone that wasn't part of that fight, challenged everyone else. CGL is very prevalent here.
As they did have the pods they could change out, they could shift to more energy weapons when ammo was low. Armor was something that would be difficult to deal with.
Building castles that can survive an invasion doesn't happen. They can all be taken, but the question is at what cost? The recurring theme with this line of thought is the fact that all involved had other things to use their money on such as building cities. Keeping the flow of necessities, then luxuries flowing to all their people. Upgrading and maintaining roads, water supplies, and other infrastructure. There is no unlimited supply of money for the leaders. And for some, embezzling the money for their own fortunes was done.
The game does not deal with bunker buster missiles. Which we know can penetrate some of the best bunker set ups. So there is a section that is missing from the game. One that would change the entire story line.
How long did it take to fight any of the World wars? One side had overwhelming forces when it started, then got bogged down allowing the enemy to start doing a better job of killing them. For a single world to be invaded with using warships is not the same as taking out an entire house. The battle for a world could end quickly but the war is not over with that. Well that is IF the enemy didn't send their forces to take your leader while you were attacking the one world. But that is the exception, not the rule.
For your own Alt, you simple don't use them. As for dealing with canon, I don't see them being used often to affect your gameplay. I have yet to see any canon scenario where you have to fight with the threat of an orbital bombardment.
You have stated that in the alt, you do as you want. You want to remove things entirely, which for warships, I can agree. Leave them as dead entities. Removing nukes means destroying humanities nature. You do not have to use them. Now if trying to continue the canon line, which you have said you were getting away from, there is no way you can do so.
It is that simple.
|
Requiem
09/05/21 06:39 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
It is possible the Dragoons didn't, but the other clans should have known about it.
Military Academy Education includes historical battles of note, in order to understand combat tactics and strategies.
I would, therefore, assert that during Sibko training this also is true – given the reverence / Cult standing the original Kerensky’s hold it would be illogical to assume that all of his battles would not be considered when it comes to the curriculum – none more so than that of the final campaign to retake Terra given their reverence for the world – which would also include a detailed discussion of the SDS system used by Amaris.
Thus the idea that ComStar / WOB also have access to this information should not have been a surprise to anyone – as their ComGuard are also former SLDF who fought and died to retake Terra – they have the same origin story! Thus they too should know about the SDS.
Also when a new House (in this case WOB) take command of a world from its previous owners – they also take command over all their industries … thus it would not be wise to discuss the affairs of their new masters … Also it may be that they did not know as they were not privy to this knowledge … as all they did know was the regarding the placement of massive new satellites, their exact purpose was unknown.
That said, prior to any major invasion shouldn’t it be standard doctrine to send in a reconnaissance / spy unit of one form or another?
Quote:
The return of the SLDF had to be shown as very important, otherwise, the houses would have fallen on the Wolves
Really? This is what is believed? Sorry but I will come down very hard on a proposition such as this if this was considered.
Just because Natasha Kerensky starts using a Trinary formation … and the Clans also use such a formation should have tipped all intelligence agencies off …
Though the main questions are never truly asked and answered as to why it took so long, and when is the right time to provide the IS with such information?
As the correct answer should be prior to the Clan’s arrival if they had decided to remain and fight for the Inner Spheres right to remain separate from the Clans and retain their own autonomy. Anything other than this can only be considered that the Dragoons are guilty of a coverup and only confessed as they are now about to be caught with their hand in cookie jar so to speak … (due to their use of the Trinary as well).
Also why are the Dragoons acting so half-hearted at this point in time? Why just show a fraction of the information? If they are in they should have been in ALL THE WAY!
Thus FULL DISCLOSURE prior to the invasion should have been the only way forward to demonstrate their allegiance to the Inner Sphere and not to the Clans.
Remember this is a political as well as a military decision – Waco Rangers are correct here, by not coming forward prior to Day 1 of the invasion their allegiance to the Inner Sphere can be brought into question.
The entire Dragoon incident of not communicating for 10 months all they knew is a crime that was just whitewashed by TPTB and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding at the seriousness of the issues at hand. I really am very disappointed that no one considered the political fall out such a late reveal would have by the Heads of all the Great Houses.
For in truth if just one true born was taken prisoner of war during this 10-months this Houses’ intelligence arm should have exactly the same information as that supplied by Wolf’s Dragoons when it comes to their ‘ceremonies of battle’ and history … (as proven within the Battletech Anime …)
So, this topic of information supplied by Jaime should not have been a great revelation …
In all reality Wolf’s Dragoons MUST be heavily sanctioned by all the Great Houses for such betrayal in the time taken to come forward and yet were just let off the hook – not even to be used on the front lines or as an oppfor unit at this point in time.
Sorry to say but I am not impressed – this really was not thought through from the many angles or was never truly understood / explored as to the ramifications of such a betrayal would entail!
Quote:
So the threat of a bombardment is the same thing as an actual bombardment?
YES!
How did the FC Commander know they would not follow through – more importantly how did the FC Military Commanders at HQ also not realize this was a bluff (Nondi Steiner and her Commander Morgan Hasek-Davion)?
The Clans have demonstrated a continued propensity as to their willingness to use orbital bombardment as a tool to victory – so how would any rational Military Commander respond?
At this stage there is only one rational answer – take out their warships by any means necessary – and as TPTB have removed all other options from the table this leaves the only weapon available - the tactical nuclear warhead!
Quote:
you stockpiled them, but didn't use them until someone else did.
This is the point … some else (the Clans) DID use a WMD first!
Quote:
And the fact that if the CO had called the bluff, the threat wouldn't have worked.
What is a military commanders primary duty?
Is it not to safeguard the people under her/his charge – the soldiers and the civilians – can she/he take this risk? As they have demonstrated a willingness to use them.
How many times must I continue to reiterate what should be a very obvious response to the use of WMDs on the battlefield?
Quote:
When they were stopped, they spread out some
This is looking at two distinct timelines – one during the invasion (when they are moving in a straight line) and one post invasion (when they got bored and decided to have some fun)
Quote:
The fact that the IS had no real solid intel on where the front lines where,
Can I laugh now?
Yes they knew all the worlds that had been taken and they knew exactly where the front lines were!
Also Partisan Forces should have provided info that these PGCs did not have OMNI Tech – they only had 2nd Line BattlMechs thus indicating they were not front line forces – they were something else (due to their available equipment). Thus the risk in taking them out is substantially lessened, especially if your aim is to capture Clan personnel and Technology.
As stated and reiterated many times the canon version of the invasion is an incredibly poorly written and executed that I have absolutely no belief in … this is why I recreated my own version!
Quote:
Again. The clans rarely used their entire unit.
And again we see pitiful writing ….
Post year of peace they should have had no option but to use their entire units as the war should have shifted to that of industrialized warfare …
I bid for a fight – I got squashed by a massive Corp of Inner Sphere forces (no longer just one RCT!) – I sent in the reserves, and they too were squashed …. As they now found themselves fighting against fixed and highly defensible positions as their Omnis and elementals lay exterminated all over the battlefield
So what next?
Quote:
Building castles that can survive an invasion doesn't happen.
So when someone parks a Warship over your planet you would find it better to hide under a table?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDjYx6y_KB4
For the past how many hundreds of years warships have been in existence and yet people still cling to the surface of a planet?
Time to get real – when the SLDF are building such fortifications en mass don’t you think it would be prudent to emulate this at the same time?
Quote:
you simple don't use them
So we are now back to – look at this new TRO and all this new equipment – ow and by the way you are not allowed to ever have this equipment for you game it is just there for you to look at scenario …
Quote:
I have yet to see any canon scenario where you have to fight with the threat of an orbital bombardment.
Isn’t this dependent upon the era in which your game is located?
So if you are in the Amaris-Kerensky war or 1st Succession War – this would be a given ….
3025 however becomes an impossibility unless someone has strapped a naval laser onto a Jump-ship.
Quote:
Now if trying to continue the canon line, which you have said you were getting away from, there is no way you can do so.
It is that simple.
Two options …
1. Re-integrate the Ares Conventions back into the game and rigidly enforce them … so that all WMDs and illegal use of Warships becomes impossible.
2. Introduce Energy shields to the game that make all WMDs and Orbital Bombardment a thing of the past …. And turns the game completely on its head …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/05/21 07:15 PM)
|
ghostrider
09/05/21 07:42 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The IS was not one entity. The CC was against sending anything to deal with the clans, while the FRR, FC, and DC had no choice. The FWL was sitting back, letting the others deal with the clans before the meeting. It was only after the meeting that the FWL started supplying the three with field refit kits. The CC still refused to help.
The Dragoons would have known this before the invasion. There isn't anything real about being a traitor to the IS, as were not born into the IS nations. The fact that each house would judge the Dragoons differently should cover any such concept like this.
This is not the first time this has been gone over. If anyone was a traitor to the IS, it was Comstar/WOB. But even their actions were not that far given the fact they could use protecting their own as an excuse. Good or bad, it is something most would concede to.
Full disclosure that you have warships, advanced tech and knowledge of what is to come, and you think they would not be strung up as soon as possible? And this is before the clans invaded. Remember that the Dragoons were not sure when the invasion would happen. They found out about the same time as the rest of the IS did. Natasha told Jamie they didn't know when it would happen, so use the time wisely.
Technically, the Dragoons were traitors to the clans, as they turned their backs on the clans even though Khan Ward told them to. The disobeyed the grand council.
How did the FC Commander know they would not follow through –
This is the very thing people have been telling you about why the IS didn't blitz the clans, nor why they could not take back worlds from them. Even if the action was not a threat but would have happened, the FC commander was under orders to protect the world from invaders. In some ways, they did. In most, he would have been tried as a coward.
When did a bombardment become labeled as a WMD? It should be, but it isn't. There is no complaint when other types were used in the 4th war and 3039 war. All houses had issues with occupation troops committing war crimes, yet nothing said. So again, the focus is just the clan invasion, not the use of those weapons.
The entire IS should be nothing but little tribes on worlds that can't contact each other with the idea that every action needs a full scale retaliation of the same thing. The succession wars should have ended with no one being left alive on most worlds. But the story is supposed to be set in the recovery phase after the great destruction of society.
Reiterate all you want. Most of the facts are against your concepts.
Both timelines show your statement of them only moving forward and not spreading out was misleading if not inaccurate. Their mission was to take Terra. With the exception of hitting the flanks to keep the IS from hitting the main driving force, it would make sense to go straight in. Until the IS learned of that, they could only guess as to what the clans were doing. They could well have been going after Defiance and were trying to throw off the IS by moving off slightly. This would prevent the IS from fortifying it so the clans would have to break with tradition and hit all at once. They could have been going a few other places as well. Terra would seem the target, yet Comstar didn't figure that out until told. The strike on Luthien was an offshoot of the main drive. So they DID spread out some.
So every war, everyone knew exactly where the enemy troops were at? This is not something as simple as someone driving a few hundred miles to get that intel out. Again, Comstar blocked all coms that would suggest where the clans forces were. They did not know how many or what types of forces the clans had. A very famous trap would be to have their 'frontline' forces causing diversionary strikes, while waiting with a large force to wipe out any counter attack. But this is something that does not rely on all forces being in the same location at once.
Refer to this statement: How did the FC Commander know. The first part of trying to suggest the defender didn't know, yet constantly you say they did. This is the same thing time after time.
Without the books telling you, how many troops did the clans have? How many clans were absorbed in the time the Dragoons were out of contact? How many units were made for the invasion? How many were being borrowed from other clans? How many units were made during the time the Dragoons were out of contact? The book tells you, Without it you don't know.
Again, read the books. Comstar gave up the intel needed to determine how many units were needed to destroy the defenders. It was off a few times, which is when the clans suffered the most. Wolcott was one of them, as Comstar did not know the units there were new or name changed elites. As for multiple RCTs, the main time I know of is when the Twycross liberation was attempted. The fact that a Cluster is more then capable of destroying an IS battalion, which should be, as the cluster is like 45 units verse the IS 36, a Galaxy is more then capable of destroying an RCT. Given the equipment and skill difference, two clusters should take out the RCT.
The underground building is why some SL caches are still intact. No one can find them.
To be honest, the fact that almost every world the clans invaded had warships overhead. And having a world that is tough to crack, you simply do what they did to Wolcott. You seize everything around it and start starving it out. You can continue to send in forces to stir them up, as clanners aren't worried about dying. They are concerned about dying with heaps of glory to their name.
Everyone wants to know how powerful a nuke would be in game terms. The developers provided that. It is the same with any big gun or weapon. It does not mean you should try them out at every opportunity, and then create more reasons to use them.
Name the adventure pack or single scenario that you have a warship hanging over your head. The only thing close is when you are fighting them, such as the Direwolf with Tyra.
So where is it written that you have to use them? If the bombardment concept was true, then no world would have escaped the orbital shots, even if it was nothing more then to remind the resistance their world could be taken out if they continue to resist. The trueborns without honor would think like this. Yet, only once did anyone try. And it wasn't a full world, but a single city. It was bad that it happened, but that is how you make people know you are serious. It has to happen once.
Enforcement is the problem with Battletech. There is no one that can enforce punishment on others. Interdiction means the realm could be destroyed, which moves the idea of a Blakean society away from Comstar. They need the houses to do what they were. Making it so only Comstar could do anything. Yet they stopped that with the 3rd war changes. No more total annihilation.
Energy shields only works as long as they are working. Sabotage will shut them down, allowing the ships to bombard. It is about the same thing as having ground batteries. And with shields, how do you land any craft on the world? Once you let it down for ships to come and go, you open up for bombardments. It also doesn't say weither the Steiner Arena can handle naval weapons. We only know it works with normal weapons. I have not seen them say the EMP doesn't take it out. Then again, it doesn't say it would stop a nuke, which would prompt the wholesale use of them again.
They might stop the initial blast, but what about the radiation or other effects?
|
Requiem
09/06/21 12:31 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The IS was not one entity.
In a sane universe –
Thank the AFFS for killing off the CC
And Thank the FWL for being materialistic in nature – willing to provide mass retrofit packages, for a price.
Quote:
There isn't anything real about being a traitor to the IS, as were not born into the IS nations.
The House Lords have a funny idea about what is and what is not important and who is a traitor … as everyone forgets that their position is on a razors edge when it comes to public opinion and how the military views certain incidents and units …
So for the past 10 months sons and daughters have been dying, en mass, against this “unknown enemy” … and then they are told the Dragoons knew all the time and they could have assisted to prevent unnecessary deaths … so how are the public talk shows and media (who drive public opinion) going to take this information …. Very poorly to outright hatred would be my guess – as for the military they would take a very dim view of the Dragoons at this point also
So in order to keep a lid on powder keg of public opinion - every leader would have to sanction the Dragoons – lest they too could lose their position when the mass riots start or if Waco’s Rangers Start beating the drums to killing off the Dragoons!
This is the reality of the situation once this information gets out – and it will get out as many within the IS military have absolutely no love for the Dragoons.
So prior to this the Dragoons would have to concede to joining the Front line or becoming a training unit at the minimum.
Both the FC and the DC would have no choice in this matter – so unless they want to give up Outreach and flee to the FWL or to the periphery where they will instantly be labelled traitors to the IS they will have no choice but accept the sanctions as stipulated.
Please remember at this stage ComStar’s perfidy is unknown and WOB did not exist.
Quote:
Remember that the Dragoons were not sure when the invasion would happen.
Isn’t this why you have contingency plans in place – they knew from their last meeting with their former Khan the invasion was coming so why couldn’t you have a person on every capitol world with a document, with one instruction once the Clans arrive deliver the note to their respective leader together with all the information attached ….
Or better yet they could have asked for this meeting prior to the invasion and let them know in advance what is about to occur … ie. a true preparation for the war to come!
As for using the time wisely – once again (like so many before and after) this never occurred and was squandered by TPTB as they did not understand what they were proposing or how to write it. (in my opinion!)
If the Dragoons took 10 months – they are traitors to the Clans and the IS!
Quote:
… the FC commander was under orders to protect the world from invaders
Sorry but I hold this with derision.
When invaded what is the logical response – to drive them out and regain what was lost.
This is the only orders that the Commander was under – by any means necessary!
As for being a coward, hardly, the correct situation is AWOL due to TPTB unwilling to allow them into the invasion – locked in a room in another universe!
Quote:
When did a bombardment become labelled as a WMD?
There are very strict rules as to the conduct of War on land and at Sea
circa WW1 – International Humanitarian Law, from there on it has been refined …
Thus since the first time it was proposed to be used on civilian target.
A good example of this is the Ares Conventions …
Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not anywhere near populated areas.
Given that they are Article I and II you can take from that the severity of the situation.
So yes the focus is on these types of weapons – from all previous wars not just the Clan War.
Quote:
they could only guess as to what the clans were doing
Take a pencil ruler and a map of the IS with the Clan holdings so far – draw two lines down from the two extremities of the Clan invasion – then review what worlds are within this area that could be considered important – Then when you take the information that the Clans were once the SLDF there is one undeniable conclusion that the target is Terra!
It is not really a great leap of intelligence.
Quote:
Again, Comstar blocked all coms that would suggest where the clans forces were.
Good luck with that – once the invasion had been identified every world with a military presence would be required to send an update.
Then there are Black Boxes
Then there are units escaping from the Clans – and if they have human POWs even better!
Then there are escaping Jump-ships
Sorry but this is quite impossible especially when you realise that there was period of time between when the invasion started and when the Clans sent representatives to the Clans – during which time they were still sending messages out. Thus anything different than this norm for this time would be seen immediately as a red flag incident.
The Dragoons may not have known exact figures – but they could have supplied them with their best guess ….
Then as more time and more information is obtained the IS can gain a better picture of what is going on
Intelligence takes time!
Quote:
Comstar gave up the intel needed to determine how many units were needed to destroy the defenders
They knew what was where at the start of the invasion.
However as the invasion progresses and HQ for all House forces starts to move pieces on the board that knowledge evaporates rather quickly.
It is not like the canon version of events where we see units just sitting there waiting to be hit – demonstrating an altogether pitiful excuse for a story.
Quote:
The fact that a Cluster is more then capable of destroying an IS battalion,
A Galaxy is more then capable of destroying an RCT.
Cluster … on average three to five Trinaries.
Galaxy … two to six Clusters.
In such a situation isn’t it logical for any House commander to consider reforming
Corps … three RCTs
Army … three to five Corps
And take on the Clans head-to-head in massive battels of industrialized slaughter.
As can the Clans keep fighting with rising level of killed Warriors given that they use a Sibko system as the primary means of replacement personnel?
Ans – no they can not – they do not have the logistical support and they most definitely do not have the replacement personnel when it comes to a sibko system.
Quote:
They are concerned about dying with heaps of glory to their name.
What glory is there in an atomic flash?
Either they come to the table to devise a set of war accords or M.A.D. – there is no other way once they start using Orbital Bombardments.
Quote:
Everyone wants to know how powerful a nuke would be in game terms. The developers provided that. It is the same with any big gun or weapon.
How about actually looking up the temperature of an atomic blast as well as its radius ?
The rules as per the TPTB are one thing – reality is another.
Quote:
Name the adventure pack or single scenario that you have a warship hanging over your head.
Which Era?
Reunification War
Amaris – Kerensky War
Succession wars (until they became extinct)
Clan Wars
How about Turtle Bay …
Quote:
It was bad that it happened, but that is how you make people know you are serious. It has to happen once.
And in any sane universe a proportional strike should have been used to kill off that ship – problem is the only ordinance available is a nuke.
It has to happen once to demonstrate to the Clans – keep off the grass!
Quote:
There is no one that can enforce punishment on others.
1. ComStar
2. Those security agencies within the house whose allegiance is to the state not the idiot who sits on the throne.
3. Family members of the ruler who decide enough is enough and either have the idiot killed off quietly or start a civil war.
4. The lone gunman
Quote:
Energy shields only works as long as they are working. Sabotage will shut them down
1st. What happens if they have multiple.
2nd What happens when the delay in trying to get through is what they were after – time to call in their navy
Steiner stadium – 1st Version – what happens to when you reach the 5th or 10th Version of this technology ? something TPTB were never interested in exploring …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/06/21 02:56 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The example given to what the IS would do to the Dragoons is pretty much what would have happened if they had said earlier that they were part of the SLDF forces that left. With the invasion, the hatred turns to hope as the Dragoons did start helping to hold back the clans, as well as inform the leaders of what to expect. No matter how things go, you will always have someone that wants blood. That is a constant.
Also, the Dragoons did NOT know when the clans would come, so saying anything before hand is pretty much someone crying wolf, no pun intended.
WOB did exist. They just didn't show themselves yet. What they did was not something that happens over night, but takes years of planning.
So you want thousands of documents ready to go, with any single one set being stolen would destroy the entire IS. In the hands of say Ryan Steiner, this would have given him the chance to pull Skye out of the LC/FC, and even seen him try to side with the clans when they came in. Comstar would have done far more, with them actively sending warships out with the explorer fleets in order to find their home worlds, probably causing the invasion long before it came, with all clans being part of it, as they would NOT have bid on the invasion but to participate in the destruction of the IS before they got to the clan home worlds. WOB is harder to figure out. They would have used the materials to do the same as Comstar or used it to frame Comstar, suggesting they were in contact with the clans since they left, and WOB was kept from those coms.
When were they supposed to even try to get the documents going? When they first got into the IS? Simply bringing in the warships and exclusive units would have done that. Showing the Minnesota Tribe was a fallen clan would have created havoc or worse. Start a movement to welcome the SLDF back into the IS, causing the 5 nations to split up? This news before the FC was create, may well have prevented it entirely.
One more side effect. If those documents got into the public, there would have been a massive drive to steal jumpships in order to head to the clan home worlds, further making them think THEY were being invaded.
The fact that having the clans landing meant they were not invading elsewhere until they took the world should be more then enough reason to refuse to surrender. Otherwise, the rest of the worlds would just surrender, as it meant their worlds would not suffer the damage. The entire defense would fall.
Still don't see an answer of when bombardments become WMDs. Every treaties dealing with such events has always been violated by power mad leaders. Sometimes the populations demand it as someone struck their lands with it. Bombardment causes heavy damage, but it supposed to be limited to a smaller area then say a single nuke. Chemical and biological weapons are unpredictable at best. A wind storm can blow it for hundreds of miles in the wrong direction, if airborne.
Also, the military operations in the city would have given the green light for an bombardment. I don't like that idea, but it is very much the thinking of more then a few leaders.
|
ghostrider
09/06/21 03:32 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Besides reading a book with all the information, how do you know they were not going to stop with taking out the FRR? Or if they intended to split the IS in half? Go so far, then punch out to the sides taking the top sections of the IS for themselves? Given the fear the DC had with the SLDF before they left, this could well have been something to remove the DC, with the strike against the LC to stall any help that might have been given to the DC. Without the books, I could say a second force was moving towards the OA and getting set up to punch thru that way. Taking Twycross and Hesperus would mean removing a large chunk of reinforcements for the LC. So your straight line theory for taking out Amaris could well be used to removing those manufacturers for the LC, and giving it to the invaders.
The messages going out to the IS were faked messages. Basically repeats of the all clear. Unless there were spies in Comstar, you would NOT know if messages were being sent to the invaders. Given the time tables Comstar kept, this may very well have been normal operations.
Given the fact the crusaders wanted to invade the IS, but no real goal was given, the Dragoons could not know if that meant taking all the worlds in the IS. They could see the numbers issue, but that did not mean they wouldn't try.
The IS DID have larger units then just the RCTs. They are called Brigades. The 8 Cruisus Lancers RCTs formed a Brigade. They were not put in one large group, and to move them all at once meant risking a huge chunk of your jumpships. The IS knew the clans had and used them after Turtle Bay. They would eat up jumpships and strand any units that lived thru that disaster. That meant they would be destroyed without much gained from the attempt.
No other way? Interesting that the story line DID do it another way. They did it in a way that follows the clans honor system, as well as prevented another nuke fest. The fact that the result isn't to your liking doesn't change this fact.
Now for the counter question. Why didn't Taskforce Serpent just nuke the clan homeworlds when they got there? This would have ended the clan threat once and for all? TPTB did not want to go down that road.
Still not thinking the game rules have the last word on what works and how? You want a canon storyline, that means you use the canon concepts. Why didn't Star Trek, or Star Wars use nukes to fight? Why didn't every SciFi storyline just resort to nukes?
What is the name of the scenario? What book is it in? The only time I seen anywhere that a fight happened when the enemy had a warship in play was the Tyra suicide run. Nothing on the ground. So tell me a name so I can look it up.
Why wait before nuking the clans? You want keep off the grass, you do it when they first hit, so they don't continue to invade. And with that, why stop destroying anything that opposes you? The 2nd war should not have ended until all your enemies worlds glowed brighter then the star they orbited.
Comstar was probably helping people use those weapons. It makes the citizens start turning on the governments, sending them into working for Comstar.
Security agents working in the government? The government is the ones most likely to use such devices. To try and stop them is basically being a traitor. The commander in chief has a lot of leeway to dealing with the enemy. Some chose poorly.
Do you think Kali would stop Sun Tzu from using WMDs against the FC? She would applaud it, and demand more. Sun Tzu did nothing to stop Kali from using them, but was worried the others would use them back. More then a few houses had this sort of problem. Nuke the enemy as they upset you.
The lone gunman. How many of them would be needed to take out all the leaders at once? Except the bs of the assassin that killed Melisa and Omi, assassins do not get the chance to perform more then once. And if you had them before hand, then you send them in to avoid using the WMD.
The entire concept of the Shield base on the Arena grid has the mesh grid that is charged to create the energy barrier. How do you do this and still allow space craft access to the world? How many layers can you make, and how much power does it take to keep each one working? Can you prevent someone from taking out part of the network?
Time to call in the navy? Do you believe that every world has a navy? Or that the navy wasn't destroyed before the invaders got to the world?
The Shield was a poor idea to begin with. It created an effect that would have destroyed the game had they pushed it. So they left it as a novelty. Something they should have done with warships.
The metal shields mechs can carry is violating their own rules of how much armor can be put on a mech, much like the modular armor. As the excuse for modular armor is adding in extra supports means this should be standard for mechs, not an add on.
|
Requiem
09/06/21 06:43 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
With the invasion, the hatred turns to hope as the Dragoons did start helping to hold back the clans,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolf%27s_Dragoons#Clan_Invasion
3050 - Wolf recalled all Dragoons to Outreach - the sudden, unannounced withdrawal of Epsilon Regiment and Zeta Battalion from Andurien
3051 - conference on Outreach
3051 - Luthien
For one battle – yes that really helped (satire)
Quote:
so saying anything before hand is pretty much someone crying wolf, no pun intended.
In a Clan-style Trial of Position in July, Victor finished third among the assembled heirs. Kai's refusal to accept Jaime's gift put Victor in possession of a Daishi he named "Prometheus" because of its energy-heavy weaponry.
Question how do you cry wolf when you can provide a Daishi as an example of what you are about to come up against?
Quote:
WOB did exist. They just didn't show themselves yet.
Discussing 3050 to 3051 early
WOB schism did not evolve until 3052
Quote:
deliver the note to their respective leader together with all the information attached ….
So how big is an encrypted computer stick these days?
Quote:
when bombardments become WMDs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate...0be%20justified,to%20the%20concrete%20and%20direct
Protocol 1 of the 1977 Geneva Conventions would also be a good place to start
Quote:
Besides reading a book with all the information, how do you know they were not going to stop with taking out the FRR
The first POW taken in combat
Quote:
The messages going out to the IS were faked messages. Basically repeats of the all clear.
Encrypted message – good luck without the key – also doesn’t the code change daily?
Quote:
Given the fact the crusaders wanted to invade the IS, but no real goal was given
Then why was the idea of the il-Clan created and the idea of first to Terra, just like all their other childish games … ?
Quote:
The 8 Cruisus Lancers RCTs formed a Brigade. They were not put in one large group, and to move them all at once meant risking a huge chunk of your jumpships.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Crucis_Lancers
All eight Crucis Lancer RCT's were used in the Fourth Succession War's assault on Tikonov.
So its OK during the 4th Succession War, however, when it comes to the Clan invasion this is now an impossibility – even after they have manufactured more Jumpships between the 4th and the Clan War?
Lions for Lambs ….
Quote:
They did it in a way that follows the clans honor system, as well as prevented another nuke fest.
And went totally against the Samurai code as well as the House Honour Code … and created a story that suggests both Theodore and his father Takashi take it ……….. rather than actually being Samurai …. Can we say seppuku or Subash Indrahar will kill them off and put someone in who will actually do the job!
Doesn’t change the fact this is very poorly written story as it completely ignores the DC culture.
Quote:
Why didn't Taskforce Serpent just nuke the clan homeworlds when they got there?
So genocide is the way forward? – sorry too many PC at this stage, and not enough Curtas La May / Douglas MacArthur types in the planning and execution.
Quote:
Why didn't every SciFi storyline just resort to nukes?
1. Either the empire went PC
2. they discovered a far more lethal weapon
Quote:
The only time I seen anywhere that a fight happened when the enemy had a warship in play was the Tyra suicide run.
First Wave March-April 3050
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Jade_Falcon
he element of surprise in these opening attacks was further compounded by the Clans' general technological superiority, allowing their WarShips to evade detection until they were already in orbit of the planet and their DropShips and 'Mechs to use landing zones normally considered too rugged for most troops.
Nt - this indicates that it was SOP for the clans to use Warships as transports in the early stages of the Invasion!!!!!
First Wave March-April 3050
Turtle Bay
Finally Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez commanded all Smoke Jaguar warriors to withdraw from Edo and for Beta Galaxy's WarShip, the Sabre Cat, to level the city. Repeated strikes from the ship's autocannons and laser weapons bombarded Edo until there was nothing left but smoking debris.
4th Wave – September – October 3050
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zoetermeer
“The WarShips orbited the planet and forced the survivors of the 10th Donegal Guards RCT & Alpha Battalion of the 12th Star Guards to surrender or be bombarded.”
31 October 3050
Radstadt
Tyra Niraborg crashed her Shilone into the Clan Wolf Flagship Dire Worlf
Quote:
You want keep off the grass, you do it when they first hit, so they don't continue to invade.
You need a pretext to use nukes – ie. a Turtle Bay or a Zoetermeer
Quote:
Do you think Kali would stop Sun Tzu from using WMDs against the FC?
Apples and oranges ….
Then give me another weapon that can take out a warship circa 3050 -3051
Quote:
The lone gunman
Assassin – Snow Fire – 2850 …
Quote:
How do you do this and still allow space craft access to the world?
You don’t you use a shield that covers a city or a base – the energy requirements for an entire planet would be staggering …
Quote:
Do you believe that every world has a navy?
Every world – PT craft I would say yes as they are just retrofitted Drop-Ships
Anything larger and its state controlled.
Quote:
The Shield was a poor idea to begin with. It created an effect that would have destroyed the game had they pushed it. So they left it as a novelty.
Problem was they did and they made shields for mechs …
As for violating the rules sorry but I disagree if you have a hand then you should be allowed to pick up anything at any time that can be made into a shield – I would even aloe throwing rocks … or as an exercise on an artic world – a snow ball fight in Mechs! If you have hands then why not?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/06/21 12:58 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The fact that when the Dragoons started getting the leaders on track, the IS was losing. After the meeting, the IS started winning a few battles. The fact that there was now hope to stop the clans. If they had said anything before, it wouldn't have done much good. And if I know right, the Dragoons were training others as well, not just the house leaders on Outreach.
Still not seeing timing was the key? Even with the tech, which would definitely have had the houses coming to destroy the Dragoons for it, saying the clans were coming in 3005 or even 3039 and them not showing up almost immediately, would have turned everyone against them. If not for the books telling use exactly WHEN it would happen, the fact is, the clans could have waited even longer.
So the goal of taking Terra and leaving the rest of the IS due to a lack of forces was known to the Dragoons? So what was the goals known to the Dragoons before they left, or when Khan Ward told them to defect? Section out the IS and bring in more clans or the vanguard was to do so, then wipe out all houses?
The Crusis Lancers we only together for the Tikonov invasion. They were not used together before or since then. As said, the number of ships required to move them in one unit was massive. As the invasion was stretched over the front, they needed those jumpships to ferry troops across the front. As the Lancer are a premier unit, they were kept where they could deter incursions from others. They would be used when the IS started pushing back.
Remember that warships were normally part of a bid, so they would normally be used to transport part of the unit they were attached to. So it would make sense that they would have the dropships of the units attached.
Still harping on the fact that the game does not follow Bushido in the way you wanted them to? As said before, but ignored so many times, it is based on Japanese Bushido, but not exactly followed. It states that in a few books. The fact that more people were not of Japanese descent should also show you why it can not be exact. Running a nation that is hundreds of light years in size requires modification to any sort of code that was enforced when the nation was only a few thousand miles, not billions.
As you still think they would have survived the succession wars, where the code would not allow them to stop, yet did, this removed the premise for the argument.
The examples given do NOT tell of the canon scenario that you play that has a warship ready to obliterate the world.
As I have not seen any scenario that has a warship in anything but the clan invasion and beyond, that should limit the search. The SL era doesn't seem to have any scenarios for it that you can play.
Snow Fire took out the leaders of the CC? FWL? FS?
Even a city is going to require massive amounts of power. But limiting it to just a city means the enemy can land and start destroying things. Not sure if the shield can be built below ground, so there lies an issue. Even if it did, you can blow up lands under it to cause the portions of the city to distort and fall apart, which would destroy the shield mesh as well as the structures that hold it in place. And there is still no answer on if this stops naval weapons and nukes.
Speaking of naval grade weapons the idea of ground batteries means they were be in an armored bunker when not in use. The same type that would be used to protect normal artillery from orbital bombardment, or your castles. There would also be multiple set ups as there is no way to protect a world from a single location. The curvature of the world would prevent this. It would be smart, if you have the resources, to have multiple overlapping fields of fire.
It is in some novels of hand held axes being throw, though those that are hand replacements couldn't be done. More of the issue of novel writers breaking the rules.
For an alt setting, this could be a thing. For canon, no rules given. Even if no damage given, it could be used as a means to disrupt another's ability to target in that or the next round. The phase issue being a problem. Physical attacks coming after ranged fired. Maybe even causing a piloting roll on the target if hit.
|
Requiem
09/06/21 04:32 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The fact that when the Dragoons started getting the leaders on track, the IS was losing.
In the canon universe where all the Greatest Generals are locked in a room, in an alternate universe, and are not allowed to assist in the defence in the Inner Sphere.
With regards to canon, therefore – very poor writing.
The majority information provided by Wolf’s Dragoons can easily be obtained via any POW as they could have been provided a bondcord and made into an IS Bondsman and assisted with the Inner Sphere with Training.
As for winning – Wolcott occurred October 3050 – WITH OUT the assistance of Wolf’s Dragoons information.
So when it comes down to brass tax what did the Dragoons really do for the IS during this meeting other than get all the leaders together in one room at the same time?
Quote:
Still not seeing timing was the key?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolf%27s_Dragoons
3019 – “During this final supply run, Khan Kerlin Ward, fearing that a Clan invasion would destroy the Inner Sphere, secretly altered the Dragoons' mission: He ordered Jaime Wolf and Natasha Kerensky to prepare the Inner Sphere for the Clan invasion”.
They had from 3020 to 3050 to “prepare the Inner Sphere for the Clan invasion”
And their preparation consisted of ……….. what exactly?
How hard could it have been to work in the background to increase the Inner Spheres technology in order to prepare the Inner Sphere.
They even had an opportunity when employed with the Draconis Combine 3023-3028 – after they had received orders to prepare the Inner Sphere and yet the newly discovered the technology was buried.
They knew where many of the old Star League Bases were – they even had Snord’s Irregulars out looking for them … and yet nothing.
They knew the Clans had warships a point major strategical deficiency with regards to any engagement with the Clans – thus they should have determined that any engagement will result in a nuclear exchange if the Inner Sphere did not have a Naval force of their own … and yet nothing.
They could have assisted with weapons technology … and yet nothing.
When considering the time the Dragoons had and the options available to them a charge of treason against the Inner Sphere is becoming increasingly easy to prove!
So again I state that if the Dragoons want to prove their innocence it must be done in battle against the Clans for the entire duration of the remaining Clan Invasion!
Quote:
The Crusis Lancers we only together for the Tikonov invasion. They were not used together before or since then.
Still proves the point, they can all be moved as one force against a target – if it can be done in the 4th Succession War then it most assuredly can be done during the Clan Invasion War!
The jump-ships and dropships are there as per 4th Succession War
Then if you factor in the Alt Universe theory that the CC should have been absorbed into the FC either during the 4th Succession War or the war of 3039 the FC has now access to even more Jump-ships and Dropships – then there is the CC Jump-ship and Dropship manufacturing facilities – thus making the idea that the FC did not have enough Jump-ships and Dropships available for the Clans War impossible. The FC would have had ample available for the Clan Invasion!
Quote:
Remember that warships were normally part of a bid, so they would normally be used to transport part of the unit they were attached to. So it would make sense that they would have the dropships of the units attached.
And by extension they would now be located above the world being invaded.
And as such a military target – So with what weapon system has TPTB provided the Inner Sphere with to defend themselves against a warship in orbit?
I do believe that the answer is only one – Thermonuclear.
Quote:
it is based on Japanese Bushido, but not exactly followed.
This is a question of Honour and duty – there is absolutely no way of getting around this by attempting to equivocate the point – House Honour and Takashi would demand the retaliatory strike.
Theodore has no choice in the matter – that is unless he wants to commit Seppuku
Quote:
The SL era doesn't seem to have any scenarios for it that you can play.
In the Canon universe where the story has become a lemming jumping off the cliff … defying all reason and logic, creating a massive black hole in its wake …
They are the biggest gun on the battlefield – thus any sane general must designate them a threat and do everything they can to remove them …
We all know who Snow Fire assassinated …
Quote:
Even a city is going to require massive amounts of power. But limiting it to just a city means the enemy can land and start destroying things.
Yes they can – they can land and attack – without the aid of a warship in orbit utilizing an orbital bombardment … which is what the point is all about.
Quote:
More of the issue of novel writers breaking the rules.
Sorry I disagree – the issue is the rules not keeping pace with reality … if you have a hand held weapon then by logic you should be able to throw it. As it is not permanently attached …
Also how many Mech jockeys would consider it a “cool move” and train in secret to use this tactic?
If you can pick it up then you can throw it!
Yes there are many considerations when it comes to thrown items, for canon it is up to the TPTB or your game you could write your own Home rules.
Still think the idea of having a snow ball fight in Mechs is a great idea – it should have been included in a novel somewhere …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/06/21 07:35 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Where was all the resources, including funding, come from to work in the background? Wolfnet was funded by the clans, which is odd, as spying was something they supposedly hated, yet did.
just what were they supposed to do? They were gaining intel on strengths and weaknesses of each house. That alone gave them a big advantage on how each nation would fight. Were they supposed to give out clan tech to each house? As they did train some units from different houses, this was a start.
Unlike the houses, where was the Dragoons supposed to get replacements for casualties? It isn't like they had the large scale iron wombs, though they did have some. Time to train would have made that impossible to replace warriors quickly. Hiring in outsiders was not done, as their background as well as tech was something they could not afford to fall into the wrong hands. Giving it to one house would destroy the IS, as they would make it and go to war with everyone else. This would have removed the ability to defend against the clans.
Warships required parts that no house could even begin to make before the Helm Core. To even suggest doing so would have had Comstar go to war with the Dragoons. Lots of pirate raids in SL mechs would be common. Even if those mechs were stripped of high tech like the DC got.
The fact that using those ships started the economy of the FS into a tailspin. And with this, the LC had the forces to stop the clans. They just didn't know how to fight them at the time, and the FS DID start sending their units to help. Nondi and the local commanders couldn't use them as they needed to because the social generals were still there in force. The bs of the 3039 hit against them shows this.
The fact that Turtle Bay was the ONLY instance of a warship being used to strike ground targets in the invasion shows it wasn't necessary. A single officer had a temper tantrum and cause the entire clan to suffer a black eye. They were removed from the combat zone for it. The fact that the other clans started removing their warships once they found out the IS didn't have any is yet another showing of this. The only kept a few to prevent the other clans from using them in a bid. Warships became a burden for the invading clans when Ulric bid away the Direwolf against the Bears in the opening bid.
On the flip side, the clans should have been ready to be hit with nukes. The IS was well known to resort to them, as they were barbarians.
The idea of wasting so many troops and losing worlds to try and hunt down the ship, as well as destroy it is a far greater loss of face then the bombardment is. Takashi knew this. So he suffered the loss of face instead of being impulsive and doing a far more costly mistake. And you can modify the house honor demands. You are not defending a single city, or even the Japense islands. You are defending thousands of world that require attention. This is no longer just dealing with a small nation. As constantly ignored statements that the DC would have killed itself during the succession wars, as each nuke on their world would demand full retribution, the DC could not stop.
Snow Fire killed one leader. Not multiples. Your example of the lone wolf was what brought that up. A lone wolf can NOT hold all leaders responsible for using nukes and bombardments.
And as you do not have an adventure pack or scenario, the warship bombardment is in the back ground. Just like nukes. Poisons are something you do deal with.
The point that the Arena shield should have been made to protect a world from an invader, became one to protect a single city, and even then it doesn't do the job. And you say that is the point? What good is it, if it can't protect the city? Just make the enemy have to use a different method then normal?
There are no rules dealing with throwing items in a mech. That is the point of breaking the rules. They do far more with other things.
But before you start suggesting the use of thrown materials, understand that someone will demand that mech size grenades be made. Which could well be a ton of ammo for say an AC 20 or a ton of LRM ammo. Why bother with the launchers when you can just throw a grenade that would do the same damage as a full ton of ammo?
Hell, just make a launcher that would do it for you. A real Trebuchet or Catapult.
And there you go, Your alternative to nukes against a warship. Just fire off bombs or grenades.
|
Requiem
09/06/21 10:14 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Where was all the resources, including funding, come from to work in the background?
How vast is the technological difference between the Clans and The Inner Sphere?
How easy would be - created patents for star league era technology?
How easy it would be to unbury lost Star League era fortresses that contain vast wonders that with assistance with any Great House would bring vast wealth.
Under the Irregulars Museum lies a vast medical facility … what would the value of this be to the Inner Sphere ….
Snord’s “finds” could bring untold wealth … and at the same time return the Inner Sphere to a level of technology that has been unseen in hundreds of years …
In such as situation they use the Inner Sphere’s people and resources – they are just the sparkplug that starts the engine ….
Wolfnet was created by Nicky Kerensky in his bid to kill of the wolverines …
In the grand scheme of things training a few units is a far cry from protecting the Inner Sphere when you consider the technology gap!
Quote:
where was the Dragoons supposed to get replacements for casualties?
They sought out young war orphans to train …
Quote:
Giving it to one house would destroy the IS
As it did with the Helm Memory core?
Quote:
To even suggest doing so would have had Comstar go to war with the Dragoons.
How? The Dragoons are too prominent – it would have to be done from the shadows and even then it would be too late the technology has been disseminated – technology is on the rise it is not as if ComStar can stop technological development on hundreds of worlds all at the same time!
Quote:
The fact that using those ships started the economy of the FS into a tailspin.
Basic Economics – Capital Spending
Then why build the Hoover Dam during the depression? Public spending such as this is designed to kickstart the economy not retard it.
Quote:
Nondi and the local commanders couldn't use them
As stated many times – SHE IS NOT IN COMMAND – Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek Davion is … As for social generals this cannot be the case as the Lyran Alliance and the supposed return of the Social General occurred after the FC split back to Lyran / Suns component – that is 3057 when Katherine took command of her half of the realm.
Thus 3050 to 3057 we have a professionally run military. The weeding out of social generals started prior the Wedding with Hanse and Melissa ….
The 3039 bs is due to very poor writing – and in my opinion would have been vastly different when you consider the LC fighting during the 4th Succession War … who’s contact was exemplary and yet we are supposed to believe their conduct went backwards from this in 3039 … sorry but this is not the case, it is once more a very poorly written story that does not take into consideration past events.
What was the original discussion regarding lone wolves? There is no one who can enforce punishment on others … my reply … lone gunman – eg. Snow Fire there are others who can achieve multiple targets such as Dancing Joker …. Who killed Melissa Steiner, Ryan Steiner and Omi Kurita ….
Quote:
And as you do not have an adventure pack or scenario, the warship bombardment is in the background.
So because of pitiful writing no one should attack the biggest threat on the battlefield?
In reality the biggest threat on the battlefield is designated as the primary target – the German Kriegsmarine battleship Bismarck is an excellent example!
Semantics and pitiful writing cant change the facts once a warship is brought into the battlefield it must be taken out with all due alacrity …
So if Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet attacked Pearl Harbour through a land invasion (rather than using aircraft carriers) does this mean that the US Pilots on Pearl are only allowed to attack the landing ships and the infantry as they wade ashore – since Kondo’s warships are not firing their guns, they are just sitting off Hawaii, they should now be designated as non-combatants? As this is what is being discussed here … ANS is?
A. they would be designated as hostile and would be attacked as well
B. they should be designated as non-combatants and ignored
C. other
So if TPTB can’t provide the IS with an adequate ships and weapon system the only weapon remaining is Thermonuclear. Or have you found some other weapon system available to the IS to take on a warship?
Quote:
What good is it if it can't protect the city?
It does the job it was designed for – it protects the city from orbital bombardment – and as this is supposed to be an army game it allows the army to land and come in under the shield to attack or do you want a dome shield where they land and just sit outside hoping that they run out of food ?
This is the aim of a shield – remove orbital bombardments / nukes – make them obsolete from the game!
Quote:
someone will demand that mech size grenades be made
And why not? They can have the same damage characteristics as a drop bomb from a fighter – simple ….
Also the Mech can have an AC rifle with clips attached to the outside of the Mech to which it can reload …
It can have a knife or a sword strapped to it also
Still do not see the problem.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/06/21 11:03 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Coming up with all the lostech ideas, as well as showing the locations of the lost League bases would have had so many attempts to capture, kill, black mail and other things on the Dragoons, it wouldn't be funny. How could they even begin to infiltrate the houses if no one could trust them. And as stated, it was only when the Dragoons left the LC in 3019, did they get the order to help the IS prepare. They could not do so until they learned how the DCMS operated besides fighting them? It was during the 4th war, they left the DC's employ. At that point, they were so torn up, any hint of high level tech on them would have resulted in the rush to take it by force, even the FC would have done so. So after 3019, they had so many chances to prepare the IS for the clans.
The Helm Core was not given to a single house. The only nation that didn't get a copy was the CC, and they finally got the tech thru other means. Before the Helm Core the FC did not really exist. So two nations got the core that became one. Yet if the Dragoons would have given the info to Davion when they first entered, the FC would not have come about. It would also have placed the FS as Comstar's target before Walterly. Comstar would have also been working to destroy the Dragoons as well.
Might need to recheck the history of the Dragoons. They were not prominent when they first arrived, and some of the mechs they did bring with them, would have given the houses a prime target. The CC would have been fine working with Comstar to destroy them. And a 'leak' of intel to the DC would have had them working to remove the Dragoons from history. That level of tech would mean the end of the DC.
To build the Hoover dam, did they have to import items from another world? Did the rest of the worlds in the FS get the same treatment? As stated, I don't remember anyone that buys debt to pay for such things in the game. And with that, did the U.S. have to watch out for attacks on their lands? I don't recall pirates, mercs, and other entities attacking the U.S. during that phase.
Might need to reread the articles of the FC. The point you made about Katherine pulling the LC out of the FC is the very thing that was used to keep the FS out of the LC during the initial attacks. Nondi commanded the LC portion military. Even the 20 year update said that. Yes, that was a little before the clans but was still in effect when the clans got it.
And with this, why would Morgan go with Victor if he was in charge of the AFFC to Huntress? That would mean both the commanders were out of touch for 6 months at least.
If social generals were removed from the LC, then their replacements were even worse. And the fact that regional commanders were politicians means they could not be gotten rid of.
The lone gunman. How many of them would be needed to take out all the leaders at once? Except the bs of the assassin that killed Melisa and Omi, assassins do not get the chance to perform more then once. And if you had them before hand, then you send them in to avoid using the WMD.
That was the first statement of that topic. The bs assassin that killed Katherine and Omi was just that. BS.
Besides Turtle Bay, when was the next time a warship actually fired on a world? The FC civil war. The biggest threat was not used. Given the concept, as soon as a warship was even spotted, then the nukes should have been fired. But then the biggest threat to the IS has always been the nukes. So why did the total warfare stop when nukes were still being made?
So how many aerofighters were there to strike at the warships when they first appeared? Maybe 6? A dozen? None? Oh yeah. I forgot the land of plenty in the alt, which does not equal canon, which is being argued with this. So yeah. Send up the 6 fighters and wait. I would guess they did and the fighters got wiped out. That would have happened with just the dropships being sent down, not even reaching the warship. So yet again, your false numbers have you making faulty conclusions of what happened. Look at the number of fighters Towne had when the Black Dragons invaded. Oh yeah. You read between the lines and seen 3 aerofighter regiments. Not a simple 6 fighters.
TPTB did come up with a counter to the warships. It was not instantaneous. And I did not hear any complaints that the CC should have had more forces to defend with when the 4th war happened. Or that the FS should have had more forces when the DC nearly destroyed it in the first war.
I want to say warships should have stayed dead, but then they never really died off. Comstar had their mothball fleet, while the clans had theirs. What would the complaint be if Comstar had pulled a WOB in 3000? Simple coms black out to prevent word from spreading quickly. No black box tech to counter it. Comstar could well have suggested local leaders went nuts and took out everything they could reach including jumpships in the area.
And the games concepts is based on not having a huge supply of vessels to send into battle. Hence lance on lance being more common then RCT on RCT. It allows for less people being needed to actually play.
You missed more then a few facts with the shield concept. First off is the level in which the shield ends. Simple tunnel under ground level, IE where the shield ends, and plant the nuke there. So that didn't stop the nuke. And there has not been any canon information on weither the shield will stop naval weapons. As the shield needs supports to hold up the netting, those supports would be outside of the shielding effects. Take them out, and you lose the netting.
Mechs are not Robotech mecha. They are not meant to be able to do hand stands and cartwheels. You can not put your foot into the head of a mech that is standing on the same level as you are. And with this, you don't see where the problem is being able to launch explosives by the ton on a mech. Might as well allow naval missiles to be shot out by a mech. It would have a better chance to hit, then a thrown weapon.
Maybe Long Tom shells should be used. But then why bother with ground combat at all? Just drop them from high level or even orbit. Only need infantry to go thru the rubble to see what you got.
|
Requiem
09/07/21 06:09 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Coming up with all the lostech ideas, as well as showing the locations of the lost League bases would have had so many attempts to capture, kill, black mail and other things on the Dragoons, it wouldn't be funny.
Really, sorry but this isn’t even plausible – 22 October 3015
What happened to Duke Anton Marik when he crossed the Dragoons?
Quote:
How could they even begin to infiltrate the houses if no one could trust them.
How? They are bringing prosperity and technology back to the Inner Sphere – they are now on the same political level as some of the major corporations within the IS – and as such this brings with it massive political clout.
Multitasking – 3020 onwards
They are no longer required to learn how any House Military operates, as from this point forward they will no longer be communicating with the Clan Home Worlds (As per their former Khan’s instructions)
Their instructions are to assist with the Inner Spheres readiness – and this can be seen with the Ryuken (“Dragon’s Sword”) when they assisted with their training and development.
The coverup of technology, however, can be seen as contrary to their instructions regarding assisting the inner sphere.
Then the question is, what did they do from this point forward to prepare the Inner Sphere … as the evidence suggests absolutely nothing substantial, and totally in contrast to their orders.
Quote:
The Helm Core was not given to a single house.
And how many corporations, including military, are multi-House? business involves opening your target market up to as wide a market as possible, to generate the largest profit possible. As it is a Company it is also a separate legal entity unto itself – just like every other company thus they are not confined to operating within one House – as if this was the case then how is inter House trade supposed to exist?
Also, they received the planet Outreach in 3030 – and they received their instructions in 3020 thus giving them 10 years to establish their corporate business arm of Dragoons Pty Ltd throughout the IS. And as at 3020 they are within the LC this is the perfect House to start their business empire with.
As for ComStar – again they are now battling them just the same as they are every other corporation within the Inner Sphere when it comes to the advancement of technology.
However, Dragoons Pty Ltd comes with a very serious corporate security arm … Wolfs Dragoons Mercenary Unit!
Quote:
when they first arrived
3005. So, how does this relate to 3020 onwards?
As during that 15 years since their arrival they have been with FS, CC and FWL … and with each house they have performed stellar service … their reputation as an elite unit is established.
Quote:
That level of tech would mean the end of the DC.
Sorry but I find this hypothesis in error – careful proliferation of technology throughout the Inner Sphere (such as through shadow corporations or even allowing corporate spies access to advanced information on purpose) can easily maintain the balance of power.
Quote:
To build the Hoover dam
Basic economics theory that can be applied to the Inner Sphere – each world manufactures a piece of the ship – their economies GDP increases – their unemployment decreases …
Quote:
As stated, I don't remember anyone that buys debt to pay for such things in the game.
This is because anything to do with advanced economics has been excluded from the game.
IRL – debt is purchased all the time https://www.privatedebtinvestor.com/the-rise-of-debt-for-control/
Quote:
And with that, did the U.S. have to watch out for attacks on their lands? I don't recall pirates, mercs, and other entities attacking the U.S. during that phase.
Still did not answer the question ….
So if Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet attacked Pearl Harbour through a land invasion (rather than using aircraft carriers) does this mean that the US Pilots on Pearl are only allowed to attack the landing ships and the infantry as they wade ashore – since Kondo’s warships are not firing their guns, they are just sitting off Hawaii, they should now be designated as non-combatants? As this is what is being discussed here … ANS is?
A. they would be designated as hostile and would be attacked as well
B. they should be designated as non-combatants and ignored
C. other
And yes Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet was there during Midway …. So what if we did transpose this situation to - rather an attack by air upon Pearl there was actually an invasion by land upon Hawaii – what happens next ?
Quote:
Nondi commanded the LC portion military
Look at the Chain of Command –During the Clan Invasion Nondi was in charge of one geographical area – HOWEVER she did have three superiors – Both First Price, Archon and Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek Davion. Thus putting her in the third tier of command below that of these people, thus she can be ordered by Morgan to implement his plans over that of her own – She would not rise to second tier command level until after the LA was formed many years later …
Quote:
why would Morgan go with Victor if he was in charge of the AFFC to Huntress?
Because he is the most experienced General to undertake Operation Serpent – as he is now commanding the new SLDF invasion fleet.
Quote:
That would mean both the commanders were out of touch for 6 months at least.
Actually well over a year – they Departed 1 May 3059 and arrived back into the IS in March 3061 when they arrived on Luthien.
As for Victor he went with the second wave – 18 July 3060 returning March 61 (and at this point you realize that there is a massive timing issue problem as if Victor departed in July he cannot be back in the IS until August 61 at the earliest)
So how does this actually affect the initial invasion at all? – Do I need to get my time machine out of storage again? (satire)
Quote:
If social generals were removed from the LC, then their replacements were even worse. And the fact that regional commanders were politicians means they could not be gotten rid of.
Fallacious categorical syllogism
All cats have four legs
My dog has four legs
Therefore, my dog is a cat
This is why there is a stringent promotion system based upon the FS competence system and not how much money you have, or your title as to purchasing a rank / acquiring a rank due to your birth.
Quote:
Except the bs of the assassin that killed Melisa and Omi, assassins do not get the chance to perform more then once.
Really? The best of the best would be very difficult to stop, not once but on multiple occasions, … this is why they are they best of the best!
Quote:
Besides Turtle Bay, when was the next time a warship actually fired on a world?
As stated many times this is the wrong question!
The question is how can the Inner Sphere Know that this is the last time?
As stated many times the Ouija board and hunting dog available to the Inner Sphere are providing inconclusive results (satire)
They threatened for a second time on Zoetermeer
Can you really trust the clans when you do not even know their intentions?
Sorry, but if you are in command of House your primary duty is to safeguard its people and its worlds – they have used it once and threatened with a second strike … you cannot allow a third time …. The only rational course of action is the destruction of the warships … and again given that there is only one weapon system available the IS’s response can only be – Thermonuclear.
As stated many times there is absolutely no getting around this – the clans pulled a warship and in response the IS pulled Nukes … you want to stop this? then find a means after this has started - as soon as the Clans use a warship this event has now taken on a life of its own, and there is absolutely no way of stopping it …. The ball is in the Clan’s Court!
Again we should not excuse pitiful writing – the canon story is woefully pathetic for this situation and should not be allowed to continue, in my opinion.
Quote:
So how many aerofighters were there to strike at the warships when they first appeared?
Do I really have to answer this, again!, when there are who knows how many Vengeance Carriers within the IS – and this was gone over to death in another forum which categorically demonstrated that there are enough fighters to go down Mallorie’s Big Wing Scenario once more.
Quote:
TPTB did come up with a counter to the warships. It was not instantaneous.
And what happens between the time of the invasion and the arrival of IS warships if the Clans decide to use them on every capitol world … this is a real possibility when you consider head-hunter strikes … there is absolutely no evidence to suggest circa 3050 that they would not consider this tactic … as many within the IS would consider such a tactic as legitimate, if they had warships and their enemy didn’t.
So who’s to say what the Clans would not go down this path? This is a real threat!
So there is but one solution – take out the warships – again, due to a security issues – and given there is only one weapon available ………
Again letting the canon story off the hook just because it is pitiful is not an answer.
As for Towne – they did have the 5th Galedon Aerospace Wing … at the minimum.
Quote:
Simple tunnel under ground level,
Who is to say that it isn’t spherical in nature then? Writers can always through in something to make the day go worse if necessary for the plot …
And again any shield tech would be House Rules – Cannon would have absolutely nothing to do with it …
Quote:
Mechs are not Robotech mecha. They are not meant to be able to do hand stands and cartwheels.
Agree, they can’t do handstands and cartwheels – however they can pick up, they can carry, and they can throw, and they should be able to use a rifle / change a magazine clip … especially when you look at the old Wolverine Mech Images and the AC it carried …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolverine_(BattleMech) – have a look at the bottom of the page at the Original Unseen WVR-6R Wolverine from TRO: 3025 – that is most definitely an external clip carried in the other hand for the AC ….
Quote:
You can not put your foot into the head of a mech that is standing on the same level as you are.
Can you please remind me how Natasha Kerensky died – Didn’t Joanna use her Mech’s Jump jets to burn her cockpit to ashes?
And then there is Death from Above – or has this been removed from the game?
Sorry but I do not see the problem with Mechs throwing explosives around …
Quote:
But then why bother with ground combat at all?
Correct – if you have the high ground, such as a warship, why bother …. Just bomb the entire area to rubble and send in the infantry …
So unless there is something to stop the warship all Ground forces are now obsolete – except for garrison duty … we will always need someone to keep the locals in line …
But for all the important battles from now on it is Navy all the way! And Orbital bombardment … (satire – maybe?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/07/21 07:50 AM)
|
ghostrider
09/07/21 01:59 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Very plausible. 5 regiments verse the entire IS. The fact that Janus decided to not only let the Dragoons live, but hire them as well is what saved the Dragoons. Anton was the crazed leader of a dying rebellion. You love numbers, so do the math.
So you missed the point that the Dragoons had to learn how the DC operates from a friendly stance in order to best train them against the clans. Even though they were ordered not to send that information to the clans, they still needed to know what made the DCMS tick. As it was, their concept of bushido put them at a disadvantage against the clans. One on one, the clans were superior in tech and skills for the most part. Clan warriors were known for throwing insults at their opponent no matter who they were. The loss of face would have the DCMS charging into combat to take out the tauter. So no. The Dragoons didn't need to know how to prevent this from happening.
The response given to the Helm Core has nothing to do with the Helm Core.
Now read the actual story. The Dragoons were in a crunch because of a lack of funds. They were hurt badly during the 4th war, and couldn't even defend Outreach for a while. Hence the reason the Black Widow Battalion was made and sent out to make some money. So for a while, there was no money to even attempt to build factories. And having the Dragoons trying to defend Outreach while most of their units were off on contracts means they were not the strong. Having huge factories pumping out tech beyond SL would have cause their demise. Especially House Liao would have went after them. Take out the jumpships before the Dragoons showed up with warships. Then moving their forces back to defend the world would have been greatly reduced.
I want to say they even touched this in one of the books. I don't remember which one at the moment.
Also comes a major problem that Outreach became a mercenary's hiring place. How many of them would take a contract to hit the Dragoons and gain advanced tech? How many would raid them without a contract? So no. Building massive factories when they just got Outreach would have been their death call.
Later on, then it would have made more sense. They did help Blackwell start making the Marauder II. No advanced tech in it.
This is also not saying the Dragoons didn't invest or start companies that didn't tie back to them after they started making some more money. And this also doesn't stop them from helping decode the Helm Core. Just nothing said about it.
How? The Dragoons are too prominent
Were is the time frame in that response? The context was for the Dragoons to start releasing clan tech as well as showing where the SL bases were at.
Again, read the context of what is written. The statement dealt with the Dragoons releasing the higher tech to house Davion. So the DC would fall if the FS was the only one to have the tech.
Each world produces a piece of the ship, yet no transports to move them. Hmmm.. Why does this sound foolish? Lots of high priced equipment just sitting around on worlds in warehouses, and the local defenders are at their lowest numbers with no way to send more. This isn't like sending forces from another state a few hundred miles away. Do you even consider things before responding? This almost seems like you don't and are looking for someone else to come up with the facts that you miss.
And again the argument of canon being wrong because they don't have non canon items in the game. So the statement of deficit spending in the game stands. There is no one that buys up that debt to let the government spend more money then they get in.
As a side note, the FS has defaulted on payments to others, such as the Dragoons after the 4th war. It was stated that the Dragoons would still be in a money crunch had Hanse paid everything he promised.
Warships and the attack on Pearl Harbor is apples and oranges. Warships require aerofighters to reach. As stated in the response, the limited amount stationed on most worlds would not have even reached the warships, as they were busy engaging the dropships and fighters the clans were using to land those troops. The fact that the aircraft and sea warships needed to be dealt with before you could even land is an entirely different subject.
It wasn't that they didn't want to engage the clan warship, it is the fact that the couldn't.
Maybe having a Star Killer laser on world would have changed this fact.
So you believe the General Estates as well as the Sky region would simply allow Davion commanders to come in and take over LC region units? Maybe putting the blame on Melissa as she did NOT demand the FS commanders to take over. This would be at the beginning. You know, when they thought it was just a pirate gang that found an SL stash. The peace time had things coming in a bit differently, but the local LC commanders were still in charge. They all reported to whom? Nondi. And with Nondi being a fanatical LC supporter, refused to allow the FS commanders to come in and show her up.
The FS sent troops, yet they were restricted by LC commanders. Hmmm...
So the FC sent out their two top commanders to deal with Taskforce Serpent? How stupid it that? Wouldn't Morgan stay in the FC to counter any attacks, as the IS wasn't sure the clans would honor the truce? And they were sending strike against those worlds above the truce line.
|
ghostrider
09/07/21 02:41 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Actual facts stand. The social generals were supposed to be removed, yet their replacements seemed to be worse. As they were promoted from LC staff, this would suggest that the LC portion ignored most of the FS promotion systems.
Given the fact that planetary leaders are politically appointed, means they are politicians with ties to the General Estates or other powerful people. Since they do get involved with troops on their world or in their regions, that means they are social leaders, not military ones. The cat and dog analogy is just trying to distract that theses facts are still that. Facts. The fact that the books even stated the LC commanders did not use the FS RCTs to great effect as they reverted back to the old ways.
How is asking how many times has a warship fired on a world the wrong question? This is a very valid question.
All wars have the risk of someone using WMD in the future. Yet how many were used during and after the 3rd war? There is nothing in the game that states your primary objective in invading a world is to take out the stockpiles of those weapons first. They are a threat, but not the primary when they aren't being used.
Funny thing here. TPTB wrote the story and did so in a way that warships were NOT the main threat of the invasion. The concept of the Smoke Jaguars used it once, and the Jade Falcons threatened to use it, yet you know the DC has used poison and nukes in the past and have used poison more recently, as well as been brutal to populations on worlds they take, including those in the 3039 war, would mean you would be cheering the Turtle Bay incident as well as offering to help remove the DC. The Bears and Wolves never used the warships to bombard. In every combat since WWII, the U.S. has had nukes as well as Russia and others. Yet how many of them have been used in any fight since then? By your definition, Japan should never trust the U.S. after WWII. They were the ONLY ones that got hit by one.
The scenarios of a lot of things will keep continuing until you get it out of your head that your numbers do not match canon, so arguing canon has to do this or that to satisfy you is absolutely wrong. The clans invasion was NOT the priority when they first hit. About wave 3, it was realized they were a greater threat then it was thought. The use of a warship sent the IS into researching how to negate them. Given the limited facilities the IS had to make dropships and jumpships, they needed them to produce normal things so experimenting with them was out of the question. Naval grade weapons were not mass produced and wasn't deployed around capital worlds, which would have been the FIRST thing to have even been done.
Following the game rules, naval grade weapons were not put on dropships, so the idea of the PT HAVING to be used couldn't happen in canon.
And still I haven't seen the complaint from you that the CC should have had the forces to repel the FS invasion of their lands. The difference is the FC had more time to develop ways to counter the clans. The CC didn't.
If not for the lack of jumpships, the FS probably would have removed the CC from the game. The economy was why the FS decided to stop. Something the game does not deal with but is a very realistic concept for a story line.
And the question still stands. How many aerofighters were there when the clans invaded? How many were stationed on the worlds hit? The game has been one to have limited fighters stationed on worlds, and have mobile units to deal with things like defending major worlds as well as assaults. Much like mech forces, yet fighters seem to be even more rare. So where do you concentrate them at? Some world on the periphery that might have some pirates hit, which normally don't have fighters with them? Or near areas like Hesperus?
This answers why the IS did not just sent everything to the clan front.
And what happens between the time of the invasion and the arrival of IS warships if the Clans decide to use them on every capitol world … this is a real possibility when you consider head-hunter strikes … there is absolutely no evidence to suggest circa 3050 that they would not consider this tactic
This is your own response. Given the IS loved to divert attention away from real attacks, the invaders could well have had strike forces on the way to other worlds not in the invasion corridors. So stripping all forces from worlds like Luthien would have left the DC without leadership had they done that. This is true even during the initial invasion.
And when did the defenders of Towne have a DC aero force defending them? Their defending fighters were 6 fighters. So how many fighters were stationed on world around the IS? Not many.
The question was asked if the netting went underground as well, but not answered. There is a major reason with it could not be a complete sphere. The fact that the city would settle on the netting would mean it would be crushed by the weight of the city. And this is leaving out the question of if the netting would be shorted out with constant contact with the ground. The supports for the netting would have to be major, as the weight of the city would be on them, even if you used them to prevent ground contact. They are still vulnerable to damage.
And again. How do you get supplies in and out of the city?
There is one thing that doesn't make sense. If the system prevents lasers from going thru, wouldn't it stop normal light as well?
One last question for the system. Does it stop all items from passing, like air? If so, the city will sufficate if left on too long. So air purifiers on a large scale would be needed. The arena only needed it to stop shots from hitting the spectators. So it formed a dome. The battle area was open for air flow from other directions. A sphere would prevent this.
Yes. Look at the Wolverine. It is a picture of a robotech unit. The AC would not work in Battletech unless the ammo reloads were part of the weapon itself. If you had the precise control that you want for thrown things accurately, then you should be able to target a specific point on an enemy mech. Such as no shot would strike anywhere but the head. See the issue here?
Can you read the statement? You can not put your foot into the head of a mech that is standing on the same level as you are.
DFA is not both mechs standing on the same level. As for the use of a jump jet to burn into a mech standing above the unit, this is yet another writer making things up. TPTB did NOTHING to support or deny such an event can happen. And as much as you think 'gotcha' you are not putting your foot into the head, but using the thrust from the jets to reach up and hit the mech head. Different story completely.
Go play Battlestar Galactica or some other space game. Battletech is not space combat. It is focused for ground combat. Trying to make it as such means nothing is close to canon, and others wanting to play Battletech will not even touch your game.
|
Requiem
09/07/21 05:20 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Very plausible. 5 regiments verse the entire IS.
Why would the entire IS target the Dragoons circa 3015?
Quote:
So you missed the point that the Dragoons had to learn how the DC operates from a friendly stance in order to best train them against the clans.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ryuken
“In 3023 Takashi Kurita hired Wolf's Dragoons to train a regiment in their tactics and tactical doctrines. The Ryuken regiment trained with and fought alongside Wolf's Dragoons, learning how to fight like the Wolf's Dragoon's. The Ryuken succeeded beyond expectations, causing Takashi Kurita to order the regiment broken into companies and to train and expand into their own regiments.”
As for the Clan Invasion – it was decided they were best left out of any Clan entanglements, which makes absolute sense (satire) - a force designed by the Dragoons (hopefully to fight the Clans) and yet were never allowed to during the invasion …
Quote:
The Dragoons were in a crunch because of a lack of funds. They were hurt badly during the 4th war, and couldn't even defend Outreach for a while.
4th Succession War - Reducing Wolf's Dragoons from more than five regiments to a single provisional regiment of mixed troops.
Though the question of a lack of funds is dubious …
3032 – “They opened the Mercenary Hiring Hall – Offered repair, maintenance and training services – Within a few years Outreach rivaled, and eventually surpassed, legendary Galatea which had previously been known as the "Mercenary Star".”
“The Dragoons had previously invested in several firms, most notably Blackwell Industries (originally a minor supplier of spare parts), and with their help, they reactivated the Star League facilities on Outreach and before long used them to produce BattleMechs of their own. This also enabled them to provide commercial maintenance and repair services on Outreach as well as trade in spare parts.”
How could they establish their own BattleMech manufacturing facility if they didn’t have the funds?
Quote:
How many of them would take a contract to hit the Dragoons and gain advanced tech?
How – if they became the centre of new technological development they will be guarded. Also considering their extensive BattleMech manufacturing facilities did this invite the destruction predicted? Ans. No
Quote:
How? The Dragoons are too prominent
Time frame – ever since they arrived
Releasing Clan Tech – could have started 3020 onwards, as soon as the order was given to assist the IS in their preparations. As noted above they have invested in several firms – to which they could have provided advanced tech.
Quote:
Again, read the context of what is written. The statement dealt with the Dragoons releasing the higher tech to house Davion. So the DC would fall if the FS was the only one to have the tech.
Sorry but I disagree – there are innumerable ways to ensure the dissemination of technology throughout the entire IS at the same time.
They even could have come clean with both the FC and DC at this time and let them know what was coming …
Quote:
Each world produces a piece of the ship, yet no transports to move them. Hmmm.. Why does this sound foolish?
Why do you keep asserting there is never ever any transport for anything? If this is the case then how does any minor mercenary unit ever find the transport to undertake a raid? Hmmm..
Also as there has never ever been anything printed as to the exact numbers as to who owns them and where they are located as well as the numbers permanently attached to the military the idea that anyone can simply say there are never any available becomes an impossible statement to verify.
I can say there are and you can say they are absent – and yet neither of us have the facts to prove with any veracity – there is absolutely no way it can be proven by anyone as there are no hard facts!
So again …. If I am the writer I am going so they are available …
Quote:
So the statement of deficit spending in the game stands. There is no one that buys up that debt to let the government spend more money then they get in.
If this is how you want your universe to be then OK.
In mine, however, this will not be a problem.
Quote:
the FS has defaulted on payments to others,
Can you provide the book and page no for this?
Quote:
Warships and the attack on Pearl Harbor is apples and oranges.
No sorry it is not – it is a very good analogy for the Clan Invasion and the use of Warships.
Ans Please.
Quote:
the limited amount stationed on most worlds would not have even reached the warships, as they were busy engaging the dropships and fighters the clans were using to land those troops.
As proven in the forum regarding the aerospace fighter numbers it was proven that YES there are enough available fighters to go after a warship – once in atmosphere all Dropships and Mechs on the ground are now under the purview of conventional fighters to which it was clearly stated that they were in vast numbers.
Also why would any commander designate incoming dropships the primary target when there is a warship behind them?
This is now entering the realm of the ludicrous – as stated many times any warship within any combat zone must be designated as the primary target! There is absolutely no other way, this is the only plausible scenario!
Wave 1 Jade Falcons for example 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs – Three Air Wings – 60 Fighters – one of which specializes in anti dropship ordinance.
And as stated in the house books all RCTs standard aerospace force is two Air Wings.
Quote:
The fact that the aircraft and sea warships needed to be dealt with before you could even land is an entirely different subject.
Since when?
Quote:
So you believe the General Estates as well as the Sky region would simply allow Davion commanders to come in and take over LC region units?
It is not what I believe, it is Canon! https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Armies
Quote:
They all reported to whom? Nondi
And as per canon she reported to the Marshal of the Armies
Quote:
So the FC sent out their two top commanders to deal with Taskforce Serpent? How stupid it that?
Note – as per Taskforce Serpent timeline the FC no longer exists it is the LA and the FS
Thus, it is the FS sending one top commander and Victor who should have known better.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/07/21 09:13 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Are you bothering to read what is going on? The entire IS would hunt the Dragoons if they had started releasing even SL era weapons and/or showing people where SL bases are at.
And the fact that the Dragoons still had to work inside the DC in order to understand how they operated is still fact. The Ryuken did NOT follow standard DCMS procedures. There is the fact that they were ignored during the 4th war. So you have a very complex issue with this. The fact that the DCMS were against this training also says a lot.
And wait. The Dragoons supposedly did NOTHING to help the IS prepare for the clans.
First it was 2 years after the war, and the Black Widows were put out to start making money.
Second, it takes far less funds to restart a factory then build one from scratch. The Dragoons had great techs, as some of them were clan trained, that still was with them.
Your scenario was that the Dragoons would start building clan tech just after the 4th war. Back when they had the provisional regiment. The houses would decide to take that tech for themselves. How well guarded would the factories be when several RCTs dropped on the world and had local merc support to take the factories from at least 3 different nations?
Every firm that started producing clan tech would be seized by the nation they were in, for several reasons, the least of which would be so the seizing house could gain that tech for itself and produce it, while trying to deny the other houses that tech. This may well have cause nukes to be used. Even Comstar would get involved as it was beyond their SL tech superiority over the houses.
Without a home world, and the Warships no where to be found, the spaceborne Dragoons would be destroyed in space.
You disagree that if the Dragoons gave the tech to house Davion, the DC would not have fallen? Are you even bothering to read the posts? Go back and reread them as you respond from now on. There is nothing in that statement saying the other houses got the tech. So ONLY Davion got it, which would mean the DC would fall, and given the initial concept of the Dragoons working with Davion when they first got it, that means the FC would not have been formed as it would not be necessary for Hanse to even bother with it.
The game shows a lack of transportation during the 4th war. It said it directly. Merc normally have their employer supply transportation, which is when mercs tended to get left in bad situations. They were able to hire some, but this is not during the 4th war. The few that had jumpships were unaffected by this problem. Why do you continue to argue canon is wrong when you have no clue on what was available?
This statement makes you look very foolish as you are NOT the writer of canon: So again …. If I am the writer I am going so they are available …
The fact that you continue to use your own numbers saying canon should have done things is the basis of the issue.
Why don't you get off your butt and read the actual books. Several house units mutinied because of a lack of payment. Does that sound like defaulting on payments? That is a big reason why a lot of house units turned merc or pirate. You claim to research everything, yet seem to miss out on very important items such as this. Selective memory loss perhaps?
Where is it it proven that the number of Aerofighters on garrison duty was enough to go after warships? It was proven that they DIDN'T have the numbers as most worlds did not have sufficient numbers to hold off raids, and that is normally a few dropships. Not a single example was shown that the worlds that were hit had enough fighters to take out the dropships much less attack the warships.
How do you know there was a warship in system? I forgot you have fortune tellers that could relay that information. I can tell you why this is false as the clans did NOT bring enough warships with them to escort all the attacks in a single wave. So again, you are putting in numbers that aren't there.
Your fighters are there to try and remove the dropships from landing their forces, so the ground units don't have as much to deal with, or prevent raids as they tend to be scattered around a world. Learn the game before trying to say it is wrong.
So you are going to land forces on an island when there are sea warships and aircraft guarding it? And you say landing on German shores couldn't be done.
The FS did not drop the FC concept. And when Victor got back, Katherine had basically reinstated that.
|
ghostrider
09/07/21 09:21 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Where does it say the 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs had the aerofighters?
As a full galaxy hit the world, having that many fighters would have meant very heavy losses for the Jade Falcons as their dropships would have gotten torn up. So the number of fighters is suspect.
There is one out here, as the Falcons had ECM going on at full, which would also mean the warships would not be detected.
|
Requiem
09/08/21 07:48 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The entire IS would hunt the Dragoons if they had started releasing even SL era weapons and/or showing people where SL bases are at.
And what happened when they did manufacture SL era weapons or when an individual discovered a SL base – did the IS go mad and try and destroy them?
The answer is no they didn’t. So there is absolutely no evidence they would in the future.
Quote:
The fact that the DCMS were against this training also says a lot.
What this demonstrates is a complete and utterly poor story, that has more holes in than Swiss cheese …
Who ordered the formation of the Ryuken and what orders were given at its establishment as to its style of fighting?
This is all you need to know ….
Quote:
The Dragoons supposedly did NOTHING to help the IS prepare for the clans.
In the grand scheme of things how many activities did the Dragoons do to prepare the IS for the coming of the Clans?
Ever considered making a list?
Quote:
It takes far less funds to restart a factory then build one from scratch
Ever considered how much this would be? The last person who tried had to sell half the company to the State to acquire enough funds to get it done ….
Quote:
the Dragoons would start building clan tech just after the 4th war.
And absolutely none of it would be coming out of Outreach as all the products are coming out of existing factories scattered throughout the IS as they have license agreements with these corporations to manufacture Dragoon Tech.
So how well guarded are these factories scattered throughout the IS?
Quote:
Every firm that started producing clan tech would be seized by the nation they were in
Did this ever occur when Clan Tech came out in the future? Ans - No it didn’t … so why now?
Quote:
There is nothing in that statement saying the other houses got the tech.
My post 09/07/21 06:09AM – “And how many corporations, including military, are multi-House? business involves opening your target market up to as wide a market as possible, to generate the largest profit possible. As it is a Company it is also a separate legal entity unto itself – just like every other company thus they are not confined to operating within one House – as if this was the case then how is inter House trade supposed to exist?”
Not confined to operating in one house!
Quote:
The game shows a lack of transportation during the 4th war.
This is because it was stated that virtually every Jump-ship was used for the war effort … This was during the 4th Succession war – this does in no way represent what would be available circa 3050!
This statement si built from the premise that no real additional Jumpships were manufactured and that the FC sere unable to call in all the jumpships again for the war with the clans … which is a complete fallacy as wen you compare the two wars side by side.
So one again there is an abundance of Jumpships available for the war against the clans.
Quote:
Several house units mutinied because of a lack of payment. Does that sound like defaulting on payments?
Please provide a list of Unit names and dates when they mutinied …..
Quote:
Not a single example was shown that the worlds that were hit had enough fighters to take out the dropships much less attack the warships.
Pitiful writing cannot be given as an excuse.
How many were with Tyra Miraborg? 24 aerospace fighters https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tyra_Miraborg
So what would have happened if she had a nuke and detonated as she went through the bridge?
Quote:
How do you know there was a warship in system?
Jade Falcon - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Jade_Falcon
the element of surprise in these opening attacks was further compounded by the Clans' general technological superiority, allowing their WarShips to evade detection until they were already in orbit of the planet
You look up at the sky and you can see there a warship in orbit.
Also wouldn’t there be satellites to track Dropships arrival / departure ?
Quote:
I can tell you why this is false as the clans did NOT bring enough warships with them to escort all the attacks in a single wave.
Jade Falcons – 20
Nova Cats – 14 etc .
Quote:
Your fighters are there to try and remove the dropships from landing their forces
And once in atmosphere conventional fighters can’t do this ?
Quote:
So you are going to land forces on an island when there are sea warships and aircraft guarding it?
Still not answering the question …
So if Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet attacked Pearl Harbour through a land invasion (rather than using aircraft carriers) does this mean that the US Pilots on Pearl are only allowed to attack the landing ships and the infantry as they wade ashore – since Kondo’s warships are not firing their guns, they are just sitting off Hawaii, they should now be designated as non-combatants? As this is what is being discussed here … ANS is?
A. they would be designated as hostile and would be attacked as well
B. they should be designated as non-combatants and ignored
C. other
And yes Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet was there during Midway …. So what if we did transpose this situation to - rather an attack by air upon Pearl there was actually an invasion by land upon Hawaii – what happens next ?
Quote:
And you say landing on German shores couldn't be done.
What reference beach was this to and what era?
Quote:
The FS did not drop the FC concept.
What happened when the FC was broken in two by Victor’s stupid decision to place a double into the game and Katherine used this to take control of the LA.
Quote:
Where does it say the 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs had the aerofighters?
House Federated Suns
Field Manual Federated Suns
Both have the 1st - 3 wings and 2nd a single wing
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/08/21 12:36 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Let's see. Making SL era weapons when everyone else started to. Not suspicious.
Someone finding an SL base, and not being directed to it by the Dragoons. Not suspicious.
Having clan tech made when no one was even able to research building SL tech. Very suspicious.
Having even 5 SL bases being found at the direction of the Dragoons. Very suspicious.
Comprehension seems to be failing a lot. Reading between the lines isn't necessary as the fact not given make up the major parts of such actions.
The DCMS resisting the training the Dragoons were giving, was following their Bushido code. The Dragoons, though skilled warriors, were barbarians in the eyes of the Bushido driven DCMS, especially with your demand of strict adherence of it. First the Dragoons were mercs. This falls below enemy house units. Then to retreat instead of standing and delivering, with lots of quick strikes instead of just duking it out.
You don't know what was done and not written about. So make a list and I know it is inaccurate. Facts seem to be lacking a lot of the time when convenient. History shows this.
Gotta love this: Ever considered how much this would be? The last person who tried had to sell half the company to the State to acquire enough funds to get it done ….
And you suggest the Dragoons had the funds to start several factories to make clan tech, right after they 4th war ended. Where did they get the money?
Now how would the Dragoons protect those factories you want spread out across the IS if they were not on Outreach? Funny that it comes from someone that demands all assets of a nation be in one large clump. The product is what is the issue. Having standard ammunition and normal weapons would not draw much attention. But the SL core was being decoded, SL tech would have. And it would have had the houses seizing those factories. In order to deter this, the Dragoons would have to step up and claim those factories. Hmmm. Deductive logic. Maybe comprehensive reasoning.
Use that comprehensive reasoning. Clan tech being made in the future AFTER it showed up in the enemy's hands is far different then having a whole line of it show up when SL tech wasn't available.
Good. Now read the post where it says only Davion got the tech, and house Kurita would fall because of it. OH? The parameters of that statement was made and someone ignored it in order to post something trying to argue it without the facts? That seems to happen a lot anymore with you responses to things posted.
Yeah. I mean the fact they were moving far more units towards the front, and had far more factories that needed materials and such, wouldn't counteract the maybe 3 dozen new jumpships that were available. Not sure how many were lost in the 3039 war. As well as any conflicts in between, like the Skye rebellions had destroyed a few. So yeah. Same scenario.
Maybe you should throw out your numbers and deal with the canon story when saying canon is wrong. Pitiful writing that they have made it clear that the IS did NOT have the numbers to properly defend all their worlds and have shown planets did not have huge amounts of fighters standing guard over them. So when an enemy hit from an unexpected direction, they could not use those non existent fighters to wipe out warships, or even stop the large scale invasions.
But then magic wands don't exist in the game. You can not simply wave one to create an Aerofighter regiment where none existed.
Imagine that the IS did have the resources to fight the clans. What good would that have been in order to create conflict? OH yeah. It wouldn't. It would be nothing more then a large raid. Nothing to threaten the IS and make some money. But this would also mean the FC wasn't damaged. That is the end result desired. The FC to remove the others and rule the IS.
You might as well rewrite the 3039 war. Have the FC destroy the DC, and then they would have the forces to destroy the clans without much effort. Just like removing the clans by having the SLDF never leaving.
You don't even know combat orders. The aerofighters are to fight the dropships coming in. Aircraft do not last long against a dropship, much less a few of them. And that is IF there are aircraft on the world. As the Warship is something new to the scene, the fighters would deal with the immediate threat of land forces being brought in, then worrying about the unknown.
What always happens when you don't remove a defenders equipment used to defend with? Not sure why this even needs to be said. Your sea ships would probably not have even reached the lands to unload troops. And given the example. you are suggesting the Warships should have opened fire the moment they could and just destroyed the world that was meant to be taken with as little damage as possible. This is not how the story goes, and with this, it would not change the context of the invasion. The IS would NOT have warships to start, nor would they have started using nukes until the second wave or past. And this would also only be one clan, probably the Smoke Jaguars, so the FC would still be invaded. The rest of the clans would have fallen on the Jaguars for violating their own traditions.
WWII. Instead of hitting Normandy, they just landed in Germany, and removed a lot of fighting. The allies had the numbers and tech.
Still not getting the story straight to even say it is wrong I see. Victor did NOT start operation Gemini. He just allowed it to continue. And this is very much what even Thomas would have done if it had been the FWL being invaded. Do what is deemed necessary to keep your realm safe.
And Victor did NOT break the FC in two. Katherine did so by turning traitor to the entire FC. She choose power over keeping the FC in one piece. Had she held firm with Victor, the FWL may well have been reduced significantly in size and power, as the FC's counter assault would have taken worlds from both the FWL and CC.
Ok. I don't have the field manuals. Nothing is said in the wiki about what the Chasseurs had for aerofighters. It still means the Falcons should have lost dropships in the invasion. Destroy the enemy before they can land troops is the best way to deal with invaders. Part of why the game doesn't have strong defenses against invasion.
|
Requiem
09/08/21 06:17 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Making SL era weapons when everyone else started to. Not suspicious.
If everyone is manufacturing SL era weapons at the same time what is the issue?
Research and development establish new technological wonders all the time, this is not suspicious at all – or is there a conspiracy regarding Russia with their new Hypersonic Missile Technology? (satire)
Quote:
Having clan tech made when no one was even able to research building SL tech. Very suspicious.
How would anyone know? – all corporations retain a veil of secrecy regarding their research and development – is everyone going to consider conspiracy theories when the flip phone was phased out for the smart phone?
So , again this not very suspicious at all.
Quote:
Having even 5 SL bases being found at the direction of the Dragoons. Very suspicious.
Only if it can be linked back to the Dragoons – otherwise no … they happen all the time in the IS … Halstead Station – the library found in 3014, Helm Memory Core, Loxley – 34 Star League era ‘Mech Factory ….
Quote:
The DCMS resisting the training the Dragoons were giving, was following their Bushido code.
Actually the reverse in this case – Ryuken “the Ryuken represent some of the most devoted adherents to methods of warfare practiced in the modern DCMS”
Canon is quite clear on the fact their training by the Dragoons was highly successful.
Quote:
You don't know what was done and not written about. So make a list and I know it is inaccurate.
Preconception?
Circa 3050 – if the Dragoons were active in preparing the IS for war with the Clans then … Where is the Inner Sphere Omni? … Where is the Inner Sphere power armour? …
Here is the Inner Sphere Warship program?
Or for that matter why didn’t they institute a new training program that all of the academies throughout the Inner sphere could adopt so as to improve graduates throughout the IS at a minimum?
Time to face the facts that the Dragoons did absolutely nothing of any value in order to prepare the IS for the Clan Invasion. Thus, as a consequence, all of the leaders of the IS should have brought them to task over this and they should have been forced to make amends if their desire was to remain with the Inner Sphere, an yet nothing occurred … again a very pitiful plot development.
Quote:
And you suggest the Dragoons had the funds to start several factories to make clan tech, right after they 4th war ended. Where did they get the money?
And as stated above – patents for a myriad of star league era / clan era equipment (military and civilian) that they allowed corporations throughout the Inner Sphere manufacture for a set royalty figure together with an NDA.
Then there is the stock on these companies when they announce their new technology …. up and up ….
This is a very easy thing to do when you have inside information as to which way the market is going to move …
As stated above this is not a problem, you just need a very creative accountancy / Brokerage firms scattered throughout the IS.
It is easily achievable!
Quote:
how would the Dragoons protect those factories you want spread out across the IS if they were not on Outreach?
How are they protected currently – either their House Lord assigns them with Regular forces or they hire mercenaries … the normal proceedings … you do not want to create waves, this all about the money!
Quote:
In order to deter this, the Dragoons would have to step up and claim those factories. Hmmm.
Just because factories changed side and production went from one house to another is irrelevant – the share registry, contracts and the royalties payments remained the same, to the same people – otherwise why would people like Uncle Chandy invest in corporations not of his own house? Financial Chaos!
It is all good – no matter which state claimed the factory the money kept on flowing …
“Deductive logic. Maybe comprehensive reasoning.”
Quote:
Clan tech being made in the future AFTER it showed up in the enemy's hands is far different then having a whole line of it show up when SL tech wasn't available.
This would be incontrovertible proof that the Dragoons DID obey their orders from their late Khan to prepare the Inner Sphere for the oncoming Clan war … they artificially increased the Inner Sphere’s technology … they would be lauded as being on the side of the Inner Sphere and not the Clans …
Yay, they did everything that they were supposed to do to prepare the Inner Sphere!
Quote:
Now read the post where it says only Davion got the tech, and house Kurita would fall because of it
How can I when I do not know where it is, and you have yet to supply a link to it?
Quote:
Not sure how many were lost in the 3039 war. As well as any conflicts in between, like the Skye rebellions had destroyed a few
That is easy … nil, none … the agreement holds all Jumpships have been designated as non-combatants and no one is allowed to fire on them to destroy them. The Lyrans damaged them, yet they never destroyed them with their orphans.
Still does not change the fact when you look at the number of units being moved in the 4th Succession War and then in the Clan War there is a Clear bias by the writers as to restricting IS military movement.
Quote:
the IS did NOT have the numbers to properly defend all their worlds and have shown planets did not have huge amounts of fighters standing guard over them.
How many units went missing form the 20 year update to that of the Clan Wars?
And again please research the fact that there are available fighters in numbers … go back and re-read the forum on this very issue.
Quote:
The FC to remove the others and rule the IS.
Sorry but this cannot happen, as post Clan invasion the IS would now be in the age of the new Star League (similar to the UN you see on the show The Expanse)
Why? With the ejection of the First Clan Invasion – those Clans that remained on their home worlds would quickly initiate Trials of Absorption / Annihilation on those Clan that failed or defected to the Inner Sphere.
Soon thereafter a second Clan Invasion would commence ….
Thus, the new SLDF would be required to defend the young new Star League against this new threat …. In massive battles stretching all form the Clan Home Worlds to the Inner Sphere …
And new realms would emerge all throughout these deep space worlds …
Simple really!
So rather than manufacturing one of the most farcical eras from Jihad onwards we actually receive a more realistic, and more exiting wars, with many more adventurous plot twists than given … and if written correctly this could have been the start of a new 100 years war!
Quote:
You don't even know combat orders.
Primary Targets – First – The Warships
Secondary Targets – Second – can assign conventional fighters once within atmosphere …
It really is not that difficult.
Quote:
the fighters would deal with the immediate threat of land forces being brought in, then worrying about the unknown.
You do realize that at the academy you study history and the history of warfare – thus all academy graduates would have an understanding of what Warships are capable of during the Amaris-Kerensky War / Successions Wars when it comes to orbital bombardment.
Thus given the threat they pose, as being the biggest gun on the battlefield, THEY MUST BE TAKEN OUT FIRST!
Quote:
Your sea ships would probably not have even reached the lands to unload troops.
Yay… we got there! They probably would not have reached the lands to unload troops.
Thus demonstrating the importance of removing the Warship.
Quote:
you are suggesting the Warships should have opened fire the moment they could and just destroyed the world that was meant to be taken with as little damage as possible.
What is Clan Tradition when you initiate a Battle in this case? I expect the Clans to adhere to their traditions and be Clan.
Quote:
This is not how the story goes, and with this, it would not change the context of the invasion.
First, the old story wasn’t that great so it’s a plus to get rid of it.
Second, yep it would most definitely change the context.
Quote:
The IS would NOT have warships to start, nor would they have started using nukes until the second wave or past.
This all comes down to the writer if a rewrite is undertaken.
Quote:
WWII. Instead of hitting Normandy, they just landed in Germany, and removed a lot of fighting. The allies had the numbers and tech.
Really? Which Beach and how considering the stormy season as there.
Quote:
Victor did NOT start operation Gemini. He just allowed it to continue.
Which proves that he is both incompetent and cruel … and unfit for holding the top job.
And by extension he started the war with the FWL … it was Katherines quick actions that saved the LA from this unnecessary war. Though I would have preferred her to have taken this one step further and demanded his resignation as First Price / Archon for starting an illegal war through committing a crime and getting caught!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/08/21 09:02 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Comprehension failure shown. Making SL tech when everyone else is making SL tech. Not suspicious. Then it goes on to say making clan tech, very suspicious. Context says it all. Not suspicious means no one would even blink an eye at it, while clan tech would raise all sorts of issues. Clan tech is far beyond what they knew what the SL equipment could do.
SL bases found all the time? Since when? And this is odd as you said NO one was looking for them.
Now a new point to add. What happened to the supplies that were in the SL bases the Dragoons found? Nothing was said about them keeping such supplies, so it is very likely the clans got it.
Where is the research into SL tech? Maybe that was being done as the Helm Core was being decoded. So why bother with exposing yourself at the time. Until the clans showed themselves, there is no real reason to give the IS a reason to sack your people. Once the clans showed up, then they would need all the help you could get. Also, some of the research teams, I believe Team Banzai had a friendly relationship with the Dragoons. It is very likely they were helping to decode the SL core. That would avoid some questions best not asked.
Do you really reason out what you suggest before putting it up? Making an internation brokerage while the main coms network is watching your every move. All your funding is being traced by all the houses that can. So yeah. It is that simple. Surprising that the houses aren't broke as hackers steal everything under the sun, since making a financial network is so easy.
Most weapons manufacturers do NOT get a mech lance, much less company to guard it. Even vehicles aren't as likely. Most have infantry and that is about it. Units are assigned as needed, when needed, not stationed there. There are a few notable exceptions with Defiance being a big one.
You said that once a factory changed hands, the previous owners were out of luck. The new owners would stop any sort of funds flowing to them.
Investing in companies other then your own is how you make money no matter what. It is also how you stranglehold the economy, as you have a say on all sides of the fence. Also, with Chandy's investments the government is more likely to be favorable to the company with contracts.
The money does not keep flowing to those that build or ran the business once it changes hands, with a few exception.
So yes. In order to keep the nations from removing all the executive board and stop letting funds go to those that once owned it, the Dragoons would have to step up and claim the factories.
|
ghostrider
09/08/21 10:09 PM
45.51.181.83
|
You really don't understand human nature? So produce Clan tech when SL tech was not even being made would not show loyalty to the IS, but as competition to the houses. The first time any word of such tech shown to be real would drive all the houses to destroy the dragoons, just to make sure the other side didn't get it. There does not have to be proof that you accept to say the Dragoons did what they were ordered to. That tech being made before others were even close would be the death of the Dragoons. They would take a lot of forces out with them, but in the end, they would be destroyed. Jamie knew this. Such tech would have been his ace in the hole. Superior tech is not just handed out to people.
You read the statement I made saying that if the tech was only given to Davion the DC would fall. You made a response to it saying they could get it from others.
So with this, you are saying you don't bother reading the posts before responding? I does follow most of the responses missing parts of what is being said.
This it the original statement : Yet if the Dragoons would have given the info to Davion when they first entered, the FC would not have come about. It would also have placed the FS as Comstar's target before Walterly. Comstar would have also been working to destroy the Dragoons as well.
This was also said when the statement of the DC not surviving had the above happened.
Your response went along the lines of you disagree.
No jumpships were destroyed in the time between the 4th war and the clan invasion? It shows you have absolutely no information on the story line. The Skye Rebellion destroyed a few jumpships to keep the rebellion quiet for a short while. This is canon fact, not alt bs you are talking about. Also given the books say the jumpship production barely outpace the destruction of them due to combat and misjumps, there is battle damage destruction of them.
Yes. Look at the number of units moved, and what it did to the FS. They were jumping 2 to 4 jumps at most. Not across the IS. They could return to their routes in less then 2 months, not years. There is no command circuit to move jumpships from the TC rim to the RWR rim in a few days. Each ship requires time to change, and they will have issues trying to hot load to decrease that time. It isn't passing a dropship between them. And look what happened. Katherine stole all the FS jumpships that were in LC territory when she ceded. The very fear that the FS commanders had about sending them when they did.
The forum you are talking about is your not related to canon numbers. The large concentration of fighters were kept to defend very important worlds, or to attack enemy worlds that were very important. They were not left to defend most world. So even having 30 regiments of fighters is not enough to cover all the worlds in the FC. As stated in multiple books, the fighters were sent to where they were needed most, which meant RCTs were often left with few, if any for their operations. But you don't want to know this, as it shuts down your arguments against canon. The alt is not canon, nor can be used to argue canon is wrong. This is not sinking in for you.
Now what did the rest of the paragraph say about the FC removing all the others and ruling the IS before the clans came in?
If the invading clans were ejected, the home clans would not wait to absorb or do anything else but launch a full scale invasion into the IS. The idea that you pushed would be the very thing to cause this. The clans would KNOW the IS would invade, and launch the offensive to prevent that from happening. And it is very doubtful they were bother with the batchall. They would probably bombard and even nuke things to prevent the invaders from hitting the home worlds. Going after just the Jaguars did what it was supposed to do. Shut down the invasion without setting off all the other clans at once. Had the other clans got involved, Task Force Serpent would have been history, and the IS would have only learned that as all the other clans started a total war concept fight. Which would also include full strikes against nation capitals.
No. Aerofighters first job is to remove the threat of landing units. Then you hit the unknown ships that are not disgorging troops. You do NOT trust the atmospheric craft to take out the attackers, especially with that many dropships coming done. This also means taking out their fighters as well.
And your example of Hawaii is oranges. The idea of invading units is not the same as defending a world. For you to land, you need to remove the defenders. You must remove the defenders, while the defenders need to remove the land threat first, then hit the sea warships. As you were foolish enough not to use the aircraft and battleship to help invade with, they would take out the carrier first, then the battleship.
As the Falcon warship was part of the attacking forces, and did nothing to bring operations against you, you leave it for the more immediate threat. Once the warship fired, or you even found out what it was, as they have not been seen in the IS for over 150 years, then you would have to figure out how to deal with it, but until then, you destroyed the forces heading towards the ground. Your analysis of what is the immediate threat is off. But then to admit this means your entire argument of going after the warships is completely flawed.
So you also know, a galaxy incoming is over 9 overlords. So that would mean a minimum of 3 regiments against your 1.
Funny. The clans did NOT follow traditions when they first entered the IS. No batchall was given for the Jade Falcons.
No rewrite is needed. The canon version used the numbers the developers wanted. Sending in your numbers to say this is what they did wrong because they had this many things doesn't work. What is so difficult to understand with this? Canon is not wrong because your made up number say so. It can be wrong because they screwed up things themselves, but needs to be shown thru that route, not my numbers say so.
Again, the BS comes out. Gemini was a good answer to keeping Marik supplying the troops needed to stop the clans. Joshua was going to die. There was no stopping that. Gemini was meant to give the FC time to survive against the clan attack. As Victor was NOT going to send the imposter to take the throne, it ends there. To suggest that doing so was horrible, yet the alternative would be losing millions of people do the clans shows your flaw in the whole argument. In this case, it would seem surrender was the best option. What else is there? Think about it before spouting more garbage.
It was Katherine's quick thinking that saved the LA. And how does that get her the title of first lord? You claim that by destroying the other houses is how. She had the chance to destroy parts of the FWL and the CC. Your analysis is she could end Victor at any time. Why not use him to further removal of the enemy while you can?
|
LordRuthermore
09/09/21 11:08 AM
87.139.207.25
|
The sarna essay about SLDF Naval Doctrine makes a good point about the SLDF naval doctrine being the way it is specifically because nuclear weapons are in play.
The Ares conventions do not forbid the use of nukes in space, only on the ground and too near a planet.
There really is no compelling reason or explanation for not using nukes against Clan Warships.
|
ghostrider
09/09/21 11:51 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The issue with the Ares Convention is it was abandoned by the co-author, the SL. It was no longer followed before the Periphery rebellions, which some of those states never agreed to the Convention to begin with.
Nukes, as a threat, are part of life. For gamers, they are not necessary to use. The desire to remove them from the game and continue to follow the canon story is just not possible.
Most people who have spoken on the boards believe the Jihad was complete bs. I completely agree with that thought. The use of nukes was a cheap ploy to make WOB look stronger then what they were. I do understand that WOB could not be the next major threat unless they had a game changer. The tech, like the super jump drives totally destroyed their own rule set. It destroys the drive, but you can jump over 30 times the normal distance? Sign me up. A few monoliths and I can hit a nation capital with enough forces to take it out. Holding it would be, or should be, impossible as reinforcements would not be arriving.
Now with this, a non nuclear way to deal with said world would be having improved thrusters on the jumpship and grabbing an asteroid or three and hauling them to the planet at high speed. It is unlikely you will fix the jump drive so the ship is a waste anyways. Use it as a mass driver.
The concept of not using nukes against the clan warships is opening up the Pandora's box. Once one goes off, more people will use them, and their excuses will start becoming moronic like 'well the invasion force coming to my world would have taken us out, so I had to nuke the single Overlord dropship.'
Then the resistances as well as rebels will start littering worlds with tac nukes trying to remove or extort people. The FRR when it was part of the DC would have started using them on worlds outside of the FRR. Same with the resistances on all worlds.
The next stage would be using them to attack others, so you don't have to risk your own forces.
So no. Nukes should remain a threat, but not be used. As stated often enough, the IS did NOT know what the clans had, so to even send one nuke, may well have had the clans respond with total warfare. Since warships make short work of jumpship manufacturing facilities, it would be highly foolish to start this type of war.
One more point that should be noted. The not using it near a world means the world would stash their nukes in population centers, and launch them at ships coming towards a world. The inbound ships could not take out the launchers before they suffered greatly. And this is not going along the route of the planet would still use them even if the ship were closer then the limit suggests. It is in space, so therefor it is not a problem to the world mindset comes about.
|
Karagin
09/09/21 01:58 PM
70.118.172.64
|
The first thing tossed out in a time of war, any treaty or restriction that doesn't give your side the ability to defeat your enemy. Treaties are there to keep the peace and get folks to not want to go to war.
Even the Conventions we have today, the Geneva and the Hague, are ignored or skirted or a nation-state never signed so they aren't bound to it. Nor are certain groups. Also recall who writes the histories after the events, the winners.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
09/09/21 08:08 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Clan tech is far beyond what they knew what the SL equipment could do.
Really? Sorry but I disagree – if during the Clan Invasion war it was stated that the IS could reverse engineer Clan tech, except for the prohibitive cost, the idea that anyone would initiate a battle to exterminate the Dragoons because they are proliferating advanced tech (that would first require an analysis of the entire legal issues throughout the entire IS to even come close to knowing that the Dragoons are behind the proliferation of technology) is ludicrous.
Why shoot the goose that is laying the golden egg?
Rather than this the only other option is nationalization – and even this is pointless as the spread of knowledge has been disseminated throughout the IS and is no longer limited to one House.
Is there any proof available that such a situation has ever occurred? When a technological leap in military technology occurs by any military industrial corporation has any been decimated? The answer is no, none, all have been praised and lauded for their achievement …
This is what they were ordered to do was it not?
This is the most efficient and effective method available.
Quote:
You made a response to it saying they could get it from others.
Aim – Prepare the Inner Sphere for the Coming of the Clans.
Therefore, they didn’t give it to Davion first …
Response – proliferation of technology throughout the Inner Sphere so that all Houses will be ready for the Clans – Maximising the number of units to oppose the Clans.
Thus – yes you could get it from others.
Quote:
The Skye Rebellion destroyed a few jump-ships to keep the rebellion quiet for a short while
Where is this written?
Quote:
jump-ship production barely outpace the destruction of them due to combat and mis-jumps, there is battle damage destruction of them
Again, where is this written? and for what era?
Quote:
Look at the number of units moved, and what it did to the FS.
Yes do look at the massive number of units transferred to each front – how could many return when there is a massive new territory for the FC that has been annexed form CC, FWL and DC?
It appears you have missed the point.
Quote:
the fighters were sent to where they were needed most, which meant RCTs were often left with few, if any for their operations.
There is no evidence to suggest this is credible.
Quote:
The alt is not canon, nor can be used to argue canon is wrong. This is not sinking in for you.
And yes, the alternate can be used to demonstrate that there are other more exciting options other than canon.
Quote:
the home clans would not wait to absorb or do anything else but launch a full-scale invasion into the IS.
Clan psychology would say otherwise.
First destroy / absorb those that that proved themselves incapable … then consider new strategies … then return to the battlefield.
Quote:
They would probably bombard and even nuke things to prevent the invaders from hitting the home worlds.
And thus the transformation is complete … the Remaining Clans are now the children of Amaris …
Quote:
Aero-fighters first job is to remove the threat of landing units
What is the biggest threat to the IS Warships or land based attack units?
Ans: - Warships – First!
Quote:
And your example of Hawaii is oranges. The idea of invading units is not the same as defending a world.
Disagree … this is a very apt analogy, and is this the problem it is too apt?
How many computer trainers within academies would still have Warships on the program – just so the cadets could play around on them – like their version of a computer game?
You destroy their support base, the ships FIRST, then without support those troops on the ground become trapped and easy to deal with once their logistical support is removed.
Quote:
and did nothing to bring operations against you, you leave it for the more immediate threat.
Can I laugh now?
The warship is the most dangerous weapon system on the battlefield and you want to just ignore it?
This goes against every combat doctrine …
Quote:
So you also know, a galaxy incoming is over 9 overlords. So that would mean a minimum of 3 regiments against your 1.
I bid three trinaries ….. as taking a galaxy shows no skill in battle – the minimum amount of forces required to win denotes a higher skill and aptitude for their commander … who can then test for a blood name when one comes available ….
So your 9 Overlords drops to … ?
Quote:
No batchall was given for the Jade Falcons.
Isn’t this being confused with Falcon Fooling?
Quote:
No rewrite is needed. The canon version used the numbers the developers wanted.
Thus, the removal of many forces from the 20 year update … the complete boredom when it comes to the invasion … there is absolutely no real excitement here … if this is what they wanted they succeeded, a lacking story that would ultimately reduce the fan base to …?
Also, there are no numbers if there were they would have been printed!
Quote:
Gemini was a good answer to keeping Marik supplying the troops needed to stop the clans
Quote:
Think about it before spouting more garbage.
Taking the death of a child and using it for political gain is work of the most despicable politician!
Think about this not as a political win / loose situation but as a grieving parent.
What this demonstrates is that Victor is not ready to lead, worse he is incompetent and cruel, this really should not have been a no brainer … the second he knew, the child should have been sent via command circuit back to his family.
And in so doing, the Marik family would have been grateful - that could have created a long term friendship between the FC and the FWL and even a marriage proposal.
What this demonstrates is that Victor is short sighted, inconsiderate, incompetent and cruel – something that Katherine would not have done!
Quote:
And how does that get her the title of first lord?
As it gets her name on the voting ballot for the position.
Quote:
Why not use him to further removal of the enemy while you can?
The Victor you see at the start of the story is no where near ready for any position.
If you learn anything from history it is to remove your political enemy quickly and permanently when you are in an era of Kings and Queens …
Quote:
The sarna essay about SLDF Naval Doctrine and The Ares conventions
LordRuthermore makes a very good point here! (keep it up, good work)
Quote:
The issue with the Ares Convention is it was abandoned by the co-author, the SL.
Signed during the Age of War – The document was created by Aleisha Liao and SHE succeeded in forming the conclave – “The Ares Conventions were signed on the 13th of June, 2412 by eight of the ten nations invited: the Terran Hegemony, Capellan Confederation, Free Worlds League, Rim Worlds Republic, Federated Suns, Principality of Rasalhague, Lyran Commonwealth, and Draconis Combine.”
The SL had absolutely nothing to do with its creation … it’s relationship with regards to the Ares Convention was to see it destroyed so as to allow nuclear ordinance during the Reunification War … thus demonstrating that the SL ere of peace is really a house of cards!
WOB jump drives – make it so that the entire engine room can be easily swapped out for a new one – Thunderbird 2 Style with the drop pods!
Why not use a few mammoth drop-ship slots for spare engines?
As for the concept of Nukes – if TPTB don’t wat us to use them then give us the weapons necessary to do the job! Case in point – you give the Clans Warships, and expect the IS to take it on the chin ! Then say that we are not allowed to use the only weapon system we have available (Nukes) – as you have refused to allow any Inner Sphere States to retrofit any Dropships into a PT Craft capable of engaging the clan in naval engagements. Thus making the entire IS vulnerable to any clan warship attack at any time and still the IS is not allowed to attack them – only sit in the corner and hope they are not used! Sorry but here is a great example of where everything goes off the rails.
As for the proliferation of nukes in the game – first you need to either buy them or build them – so unless this is achieved then the idea of mass proliferation goes out the window.
So who is going to be allowed to sell massive quantities of nukes on the black market to anyone who wants them – as none of the Great Houses would allow it, even comstar wouldn’t go down this track so where and who is perpetrator selling to everyone like cady?
Thus, the idea that they are so well dispersed throughout the IS is now an impossibility.
Quote:
The first thing tossed out in a time of war, any treaty or restriction that doesn't give your side the ability to defeat your enemy. Treaties are there to keep the peace and get folks to not want to go to war.
And yet how many treaties are still in force and how many are still on the docket requesting signatures?
If this was the case then why go through the process of signing if no one is going abide by the treaty?
Quote:
Even the Conventions we have today, the Geneva and the Hague, are ignored or skirted or a nation-state never signed so they aren't bound to it.
Can you please provide examples?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/10/21 12:00 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The IS DID reverse engineer the clan's tech. Making it was the costly issue. Which I don't think would actually have been the case, as they had to retool manufacturers to make SL tech. The fact that the elite units, much like the Black Watch of the SLDF would have the clan tech at the very least. Even the materials may well have been what stopped it from being made, for the in game purposes. TPTB didn't want clan tech being common among the IS forces, as it meant further threats had to use something even more powerful, and the chance of the mighty FC just rolling over other houses would have happened, including wiping out the clans still in their territory. The huge numbers of units would show this.
Did Germany get nuclear technology destroy so the U.S. would make the nuke? Oh wait. Yes they did. With other advances in tech, the ones that discovered it did NOT allow that tech to be given out to others. Luckily, international copyright laws stopped most of it. But today, the advanced tech is being stolen and used in other countries that can produce it. The fact that nukes are not made in all countries has shown this.
The statement went that if the Dragoons gave only Davion the tech when they got in, the DC would have been wiped out along with the other houses because of it, and you say that wouldn't have happened. And yet you once again twist the statement into something that doesn't exist, just to try and suggest you are right. There is nothing in the statemen to say the other houses got the tech at that time.
In the Grey Death Legion book The day of Heroes, I believe, they say the Rebellion destroys a few jumpships to prevent word of their rebellion from spreading when it first starts.
The original jumpships and dropships books stated the building of new ships barely outpaced those lost in combat and misjumps as stated a few times now.
I missed the point? You have more area to cover with less ships now, so the economic failure is more likely. It isn't like the other houses just let you keep the jumpships from the areas you invaded. They ran deeper into their nations. And then releasing those ships you do have meant not being able to move massive amounts of units again. The LC was the only thing that prevented the FS from having to suffer thru a very long depression as well as allow it to avoid being invaded by the very states they were at war with during the 4th war.
Read the Galtor campaign. They specifically state the the aerofighters were sent to free Marduk from the DC and allow reinforcements to move freely to Galtor. So yeah. I guess that meant the fighters were never sent, nor did other stories say the same thing. But you read and comprehended everything dealing with the game. Funny how so many facts are missing from your statements.
Exciting and wrong are not one and the same. WWII was not fought on Mars. WWI was not fought with laser weapons. Aliens from beyond our galaxy did not invade the Roman empire causing it to fall. But you are saying that happened, since it makes it more exciting. And yet, you don't see it. Comprehension is completely missing.
Clan philosophy. Do not try to take in something that would devolve your clan. The others lost in a large way, to the point that they proved flawed. Best to just cut it out of existence and go from there.
The clans would become Amaris because the IS started nuking their ships?
Get real. The biggest threat to the defenders is the ships landing troops to take over the world. Once that is dealt with then you go after what may or may not be a warship. Warships alone do not take worlds. They need to land forces on the world to take them. The biggest threat to the IS would be falling back into using nukes in a panic.
So the defenders would rush out to take out artillery that they can't reach instead of wiping out the infantry marching into a city? Taking out the threat of having people sitting in your offices is not the immediate threat? Doing so would mean the enemy had to ship in more to do so, giving your allies time to get more equipment to the location that can take out the enemy, and you don't understand this?
I won't laugh at how horrible it is to hear someone suggest you send out your defenders to attack another target and leave your base undefended.
And with this, you are saying that a weapon that hasn't been seen on the battlefield in 200 plus years, would be taken as operational? It is more likely going to be seen as a large transport ship until it does open fire. And in the invasion only once did that happen. Get over yourself with the threat. That is not the same thing as firing on a target. The defender folded, which would be the same thing that EVERYONE facing warships would have done until they had the forces to deal with them. You can NOT protect your nation when you surrender and give the enemy weapons and supplies as well as not even trying to tie them up for a while, while others mobilize to stop them
During the Falcon's first invasion efforts, how many actually stuck to bidding? They did not even challenge the defenders, they just dropped. The invasion information does NOT say it was x stars that dropped but the galaxy. So read what is there, and not what you want to see. Or maybe you should delete your edited files that say the clans dropped nuke carrying elementals on all worlds.
Again, it was shown the Falcons did not issue challenges for most of the first wave. Again, it is ignored. Your fake books where you have the clans coming in to carve up everyone with their fangs, and create an army of undead needs to go. These are not canon facts.
Game rebalancing happens from time to time. There is no real way of removing that many units with the exception of a major war, which did not occur. I think it was poorly executed, but oh well. I bought the books afterwards and just rolled with it. As for exciting, you sound very excited about the events.
As stated so often, the alt does not have any say in canon being wrong. It states your inability to see that you are trying to say that you view of what happened, putting in non existent numbers is how the game has to go. It doesn't. Saying that the story needs a rewrite to follow your numbers was old a year ago.
What do you think leaders do? They take the lives of their soldiers and place them in jeopardy every moment of the day to defend their views. Some go out of their way to get their soldiers killed in deranged concepts. Thomas did the same thing to millions of lives, as well as Katherine. One child verses billions of lives. Do the math. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. And what did Thomas do? He started WOBs nuking the entire IS. So maybe Thomas should have been killed to prevent this. OH yeah. That would be doing what you are, and rewriting things in the middle to stop the end of the story.
Think of the grieving parents. How many billions of parents had to grieve for their dead children do to the wars, even before the clans? All this because no compromise was done to end the wars. How many children had to grieve for their parents? But let's focus on the one. Without it, Katherine would not have risen to power. So yeah.
Again the outcome of Katherine would have kept Gemini going and place the imposter on the FWL throne as a puppet would not be cruel. With her in charge, she would have went far further to black mail Thomas into further unspeakable things. And you would say that is was a crowning achievement, not a viciously cruel act.
And now the shortsightedness comes in. Once Victor was about to become first lord, a simple revolt charging him with being incapable of doing anything, according to you, she could have taken it all at once, and become the First Lord once and for all. Having all the other realms in a position that they could do nothing but accept it, meant perpetuity.
|
ghostrider
09/10/21 12:32 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The essay is just that. An essay. It is not the official canon line. So opinions, no matter how good, is not canon.
I love the fact that you left this out: The Concordat was distrustful of the Capellans in general and considered the Conventions hypocritical; the Taurians were fighting a border conflict with the Confederation, during which Liao forces had conducted massacres similar in scale to Tintavel before, during, and after the Conference.[7] The Collective politely declined as they had no interest in waging any wars, and feared that the Conventions would legitimize and trivialize warfare.[8]
See where it says the Liao STILL used those banned methods after signing the Conventions? Ooooops. So it did not even take the SL to void it but the very author did so.
I don't think you understand jump drives. It requires a full dry dock to refit new jumpdrive into the ship. You simply do not just carry parts to rebuild them. Part of why Yardships were made.
When has any wargame been fair that all sides had the same tech, weapons, numbers and such? Part of the fun is to take the lesser nations and win against the greater nations. Otherwise, it has no draw to be fun. Oh look. Our Atlas lance destroyed yet another wasp lance. That was fun. I think we should put the game into storage. It isn't fun anymore.
Clan tech was the IS taking it on the chin. To balance out the numbers the IS had, the clans had far more advanced tech. And the fact that if the clans were going to wipe out the IS, they would have sent their warships to capital worlds with a galaxy or three of troops and removed the leaders as the invasion started. And Comstar happened to be able to work with the clans then stop them from advancing on terra. Comstars leader happened to be insane enough to think she could send the clans against the houses.
Now as you are playing a game someone else made, then saying you can put in what you want, then saying the game has to change so that is what EVERYONE has to do, with a rewrite, you wonder why people say it can't be that way. Make your own game and make the rules support what you want. Stop telling us we have to play your vision.
As for the proliferation of nukes in the game – first you need to either buy them or build them – so unless this is achieved then the idea of mass proliferation goes out the window.
Did that sound ironic? The entire history of the game had nukes in it, yet for the longest of times, the person said that nukes can be removed from the game yet not change the entire history of the storyline. Without nukes, the SL would not have lost so many units to the wars before it's fall. The IS would not have been so devastating in the 1st and 2nd wars. So the entire future, ie 3025 and on, would never have evolved. But yet the person did try to demand that it could.
How do people get nuclear material? Buy it on the black market, steal it, blackmail people for it, all sorts of ways, even, now get this concept, MINE IT. OH NOOOOO! Simple exploration for resources will indeed result in finding uranium, and with the right tools, allow it to be upgraded into bomb materials. Given the concept of the entire galaxy being there, it is not hard to see HOW it can be done.
There will be people that will sell the actual bombs for profit. That is what weapons merchants do from time to time. Even nobles that have a vendetta against people will supply them to someone that will strike back at their hated foes.
Treaties are done to try and calm the populations around the world. If you don't sign one saying you will limit the use of say nukes, then your people will look to be rid of you. Even in dictatorships you have to try and keep people happy. It is also a way to limit what your enemies can do. They are not going to openly threaten to nuke you if you have a treaty. So it gives you some room to harass them.
To answer WHO is getting away with war crimes is getting into real world issues. The main thing is the lack of war being declared. Other then that, there are those in the world violating those very statutes.
|
Requiem
09/10/21 05:40 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
TPTB didn't want clan tech being common among the IS forces
As soon as the Clans arrived within the IS it is just a matter of time – clan tech will be reverse engineered and it will be proliferated throughout the IS – The question is when?
So when is this supposed to occur?
It was denied via the conquest of Huntress – due to the most imbecilic of suggestions …
Then there is just the natural reverse engineering process that occurs throughout the IS – such as the ECM or BAP etc – as soon as it was made by one House the remainder went out of their way to capture and reverse engineer – so why not with the Clans.
Again I find the games interpretation of these events – lacking!
Quote:
the mighty FC just rolling over other houses would have happened, including wiping out the clans still in their territory. The huge numbers of units would show this.
This is where you actually create a viable story line and not just “wing it” and hope for the best.
Quote:
Did Germany get nuclear technology
They were no where near close, and if they did – Russia would have been the first target.
As for a country – the requirements for making nukes – I would assume it is both very costly and technically specific – thus the country in question will require money and scientists, technicians and engineers of a very high quality!
Quote:
The original jump-ships and dropships books stated the building of new ships barely outpaced those lost
ie an outdated book … anything modern? Over the years from when this book represents to the future how does this change. TPTB have never realized that as soon as technology increases there are certain areas of technology that must increase rapidly , in leaps and bounds, at the same time …
Thus the story is lacking once more!
Quote:
You have more area to cover with less ships now, so the economic failure is more likely
Wrong, the same area with more ships – economic failure is reduced!
Increased technology = increased ship productivity – ie. more ships are produced …
And from one year to the next more ship yards can be produced = even more ships are produced
And as time increases even more shipyards are produced whilst older ones increase in size = even more ships are produced
Quote:
Comprehension is completely missing.
The analogy is sound, the warship is the primary target and not the minimized ground forces.
Quote:
Clan philosophy. Do not try to take in something that would devolve your clan
What better way to humiliate an enemy than to absorb them into your clan or to destroy them outright – either way you gain control of their genetic legacy and by extension their future … a point that is very Clan like.
Quote:
the Falcons did not issue challenges for most of the first wave
Then consider the size of the forces used per invasion world ….
This would say otherwise.
Quote:
Game rebalancing happens from time to time. There is no real way of removing that many units with the exception of a major war, which did not occur.
Problem is that this removal from the 20 years update and many other units that were killed off is more like being petty than anything else.
You design a game – continuity is a big part of it – killing off / removing units that have been much beloved by the fans will only cause detrimental waves … and many may leave because of it …
Quote:
One child verses billions of lives. Do the math.
However when that one child is a Marik …. How many dies in this war because of Victor’s stupidity … ask him when he became a parent what he would do if he was placed in Marik’s circumstances and it was his child …
Any parent will say what he did was evil and despicable!
Quote:
The essay is just that. An essay.
Whiten by and in which era ? thus can be used as a credible document regarding the issues and concerns of times …
It is a historical document and as such should be treated as such …
Would you say the Declaration of Independence was just a rambling document that has no place in today’s society?
Quote:
See where it says the Liao STILL used those banned methods after signing the Conventions?
If you read between the lines you would see she is stamping out this type of violence and would not tolerate any further actions like this. So what happened to those commanders who still committed atrocities? This is Liao – so probably something
unique.
Remember state sanctioned Vs rogue elements!
Quote:
I don't think you understand jump drives. It requires a full dry dock to refit new jumpdrive into the ship. You simply do not just carry parts to rebuild them.
I don’t think you understand Mechs it requires a full yard to remove their weapons and reconfigure them with a new set of weapons … you simply cannot just carry weapons in pods to rearm them …. And then when the first model comes off the line? It suddenly becomes standard ….
Quote:
And Comstar happened to be able to work with the clans then stop them from advancing on terra. Comstars leader happened to be insane enough to think she could send the clans against the houses
And yet if the 20 year update was never tampered with the sory could have been improved upon and we would not have required what can only be considered one of the most lame excuses for a battle ever conceived – we would then not have had to gag at the miss use of the 15 years of truce … the let’s only attack one clan strategy …. Etc etc
That turned the entire storyline into a joke!
Quote:
Stop telling us we have to play your vision.
And how many times have I refuted this statement – and put in why only be accused again and again …
Quote:
The entire history of the game had nukes in it
In mass numbers these were all state owned …what is suggested here is that anyone can go down to the corner store and purchase a nuke to kill his neighbour, because he has an issue with their dog’s barking.
Quote:
now get this concept, MINE IT
Now get this concept … refine it and manufacture the warhead – whist at the same time micronizing the size of the warhead and at the same time devising a delivery device …
Good luck in finding the people and the technology ….
Also if it was this easy wouldn’t some African states have them by now?
As for people who sell them – how many would they have one / two at the most and how many spy agencies would be after this person to stop the sale?
This is not like a mass production line selling all different types in a show room.
Quote:
Treaties are done to try and calm the populations around the world.
Really?
And how many times has this been brought up in the media?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/10/21 11:16 AM
45.51.181.83
|
I don't agree with the clan tech being left out. That has been said multiple times. It is one of a very few points that you have a point on, as canon does show it has flaws. I believe grasping at straws is happening, as this continues to come up.
You have your normal area, except for what the DC took in the 4th war, and all the area you took from the CC and FWL. It is only wishes that you gained that many more jumpships. As there is nothing saying how many they captured or lost, I am running on the assumption they gained enough to cover those losses. Now. Where is the math on this? Oh, I forgot that the newly acquired territory would not get any jumpships to continue functioning.
Yes, the book is old. Yet the information in it is still valid. I have seen nothing that states anything in it is inaccurate. So based on this still valid information, you can figure out the IS had a lot to make up for before they were above what is needed for just keeping worlds functioning. More people means more supplies being moved, as well as more resources being needed to supply them and the military. So going from basic barely surviving on most backwater worlds, so the big ones can keep up, to now being adequately supplied without new populations is where most, if not all, any new ships would go. Yes, the military will buy some of those to keep up with expanded capacity, but they will not be the sole benefitiaries of it.
The ground troops that can kill you personally are minimized? While the ship that has done nothing is the primary target? With this logic, the jumpships are the threat as they will be carrying those troops and reinforcements. So take that out, and the enemy can't move to reinforce or invade other worlds. This will lock those minimized ground troops to your world, and give your allies a chance to come kill them. Most invasions are not full destruction of the world, ground troops are sent in to take control of the worlds. Orbital bombardments do only one thing. Destroy everything on the surface. Something invasions DON'T want.
And a side point about satilites. They are the first thing anyone attacking a world would take out. Secrecy is something all attackers want. Even the clans. They say they don't but the initial attacks were done in secret. Their main thrust was covered by Comstar.
Oh yeah. Those ground forces are more likely to remove your ability to take out the warship, as you will need to refuel and rearm. With few exceptions, your aeroforces are NOT going to be regimental in size. Damage will occur.
|
ghostrider
09/10/21 12:06 PM
45.51.181.83
|
You want to humiliate a clan, you make them Dezgra and not even acknowledge they exist. If they follow traditions, they will not try and rise up, as they are no longer warriors.
This also means their genetic legacy ends with the current trueborns as no more will be produced.
There is nothing petty about removing those units. The game can not continue with one side have more forces and the ability to produce even more, then the rest of the opponents combined, including Comstar. The numbers will eventually win. Or the last defense weapons come back to play, which does no one any good.
The entire storyline is falling apart as the retcons continue. There is no continuity as the story did not have anything in there with the new stuff before hand. The addition of the smaller HPG models show this. Not a single copy remained buried in a military installation that was buried, not fully destroyed? That not a single SL cache found had any working models in them? No stranded SL ship, such as a warship graveyard had anything in it, especially left when the SLDF was leaving?
OH no! A child of the enemy died! We need to never attack them ever again! The entire history of the IS is filled with people losing children to war. This one child was going to die. The NAIS extended his life to the best of the medical care they could. Had Comstar come forth with their SL tech, they could have done far more. Yet nothing.
Even sending in raids causes deaths. Any conflict in the IS ends in deaths.
As for Victor, he would not have had to send his child to the FWL as the FC has the second best medical facilities. Comstar would be ahead of them, as they had SL tech.
And how many more children died to Katherine playing with Vlad? Had she worked with Victor, they would have repulsed the FWL/CC attack and taken even more worlds. Which is the path to becoming First Lord for life. Your premise pushed more then a few times in the past. Not rotation, but ONLY first lord. Then with this, they would have gained even more power to deal with the clans and the houses.
One more point. The FC would love to have the entire house Marik die, and cause civil war to rage across the FWL. It is easier to take over when they are not united.
Read between the lines? What crap is this? It was made to prevent the CC from suffering like they were doing to the TC. That is what is between the lines. The fact is, the CC was pushing to make the conventions while violating them before, during and after the signing. War crimes ring a bell here?
This is trying to use the looking glass to avoid the truth. This is also why you don't seem to understand what is truly in the storyline. This is canon.
Yeah. A kilometer drive is the same thing as replacing even a mechs torso. I mean the heaviest weapon, probably an AC20 at the time, the 14 ton model is the same thing as replacing the entire thousand ton plus drive is the same thing. The fact that the drive is surrounded by the main support structure of the vessel has nothing to do with it. Why do you need yarships and dry docks again? Just to waste money?
The fact that mechs can be refitted in the field, and jumpships can't doesn't mean anything. Shows the logic that has been coming thru.
Your statements continue to show the refuting is false. The continued saying canon is wrong, because your numbers say it is shows this constantly. Your numbers are the only way forward in the game. Is this not saying that means only your vision is required to be canon?
Who says a nuke has to be the size of a briefcase? There are plenty of organizations in Battletech that would gladly assist someone in making a nuke if it was used against the enemy. They get the destruction of enemy assets while being able to show they did not do it. Some crazy citizen of the enemy realm did so. Must be horrible to be part of that realm if their own people are doing such things.
And for some people, the idea of a nuke to take out a city isn't beyond reality.
It only takes one nuke to start a war. That is the problem with brainwashed people. They believe that nuking an enemy is the answer to everything. They end up getting millions killed for no reason, other then their ego demanded it.
How did houses build military installations that their own population did know about? How did the RWR or any other nation build secret armies? How often did intel agencies find out where secret bases were? The Black Dragon Society is one such organization that could have built nukes. Even taking them directly from house stores. A small amount of material in a spare casing could be placed where a real nuke was stored at. As no one will open up the case every single day to see if it is a real nuke, well, they get overlooked. This is what happens with military items today. The warehouses have crates with them in it, and no one even tries to open them daily. And the trick when multiple weapons are stored in one, is to take out some, and pad the bottom so the weapons on top are all stored nice and neat, yet the weapons below them are gone.
And in the future, you could well make a refinery for uranium on a dropship, and move around the entire IS. Oooops.
The nuclear treaty between Russia and the U.S. is one such example. There are other agreements that are done to calm down people, such as sanctions against come countries. The fact is, unless both sides are willing to actually abide by them, then it is nothing more then paper with ink on them. Look to the news in order to find where those violations happen, which include watch is considered crimes against humanity. To start listing them would violate forum policies. You love reading between the lines and researching things. Here is your chance.
|
Requiem
09/10/21 08:05 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
It is only wishes that you gained that many more jumpships.
With the fall of the CC to the FC so to falls their fleet of Jump-ships to the FC – also their manufacturing facilities to which they can improve efficiency.
My assumptions, however, state …
The newly acquired territory retains the Jump-ships they had whist producing more.
Math states, therefore, they are slowing improving upon their former position and are slowly increasing their functionality ….
Quote:
Yes, the book is old. Yet the information in it is still valid.
So when then is this so called information no longer valid in game years, 10 years, 50 years … 100 years …. Never …
Contradiction in terms – is the results from a 50 year old census still valid? No they are not – time changes and everything changes with time!
Basing current facts on outdated information is pointless.
Yes it will take time, however, as Jumpships and their production facilities are safe from the ravages of war and as technology and efficiency increases the number of ship production facilities as well as ship numbers increases throughout the inner sphere – why the Inner Sphere is regaining its Star League technology and in some areas surpassing this knowledge – In an era where technology is increasing rapidly so to does their production ability . It is now just a matter of time until the fleet numbers return to Star League era numbers and then even beyond this.
The evidence for this is the massive influx of new BattleMech Designs – new production facilities … new dropship designs and warship production. Technology and production are on the rise and with it so too is the number of Jump-ships.
With total war economics as seen in the USA during WW2 there will be a massive increase in production output.
Quote:
The ground troops that can kill you personally are minimized?
Yes … they bid their numbers down … as seen by troop deployments per world.
Quote:
While the ship that has done nothing is the primary target?
Really – since hen has a command and control as well as an observation base not been a primary target – and if you start winning would any officer believe they would not open up their main guns – as this statement suggests that you believe that officers on one side are trusting their enemy compatriots not to use their main guns and not to supply their ground forces with reconnaissance information as to the location and disposition of your forces – something the warship in orbit should be able do – ie the same as a spy satellite!
Sorry but this is faulty logic – just as the clans go straight for the command and control on ground the inner sphere MUST go after the Clans Command and control in space!
Quote:
And a side point about satellites. They are the first thing anyone attacking a world would take out.
And with this statement you agree – all enemy satellites must be taken out first – ie. The Warship in orbit that is a proxy satellite!
Quote:
Secrecy is something all attackers want. Even the clans.
Secrecy is something all defenders want. Even the Inner Sphere!
Thus consensus is reached – the warship must be killed off First!
Quote:
Their main thrust was covered by Comstar.
Except that clan hour would never allow this – ComStar may provide the information – but clansmen will determine the strategy etc from there on …
Quote:
your aeroforces are NOT going to be regimental in size. Damage will occur.
All I need is one nuke to come in range and detonate – the thermal energy alone would melt the ship to slag …
As the game rules regarding Nukes (which should be completely ignored at this point as they are a complete waste of time in believing they can just turn them into firecrackers, or they believe that their warships can now travel through a sun flare with only minor damage.
And yes damage will occur on both sides!
If TPTB want warships in the game – where only one side has them then look out for a massive use of nuclear ordinance on the other side!
Quote:
This also means their genetic legacy ends with the current trueborns as no more will be produced.
And the Kerensky bloodline by this reasoning will also be no longer produced?
What is worth more, petty revenge, or holding the Kerensky Bloodline when it comes to clan politics.
Quote:
The game can not continue with one side have more forces and the ability to produce even more, then the rest of the opponents combined, including Comstar. The numbers will eventually win. Or the last defense weapons come back to play, which does no one any good.
But the game can allow one side to have an overwhelming technological edge so as to remove any hope at defence for the majority of the invasion which is akin to having one side having more forces than that of the other!
Where is the gameplay in this – Keep loosing again and again at its OK as long as it’s the IS that is loosing … but as soon as anyone says that it should be other way around you are screamed at for not creating a game that will continue …
So what is the balance of a good game in the Clan Invasion? What do you want in a game – where one side just tramples the other with technology or numbers? Or do you want something else?
Quote:
The entire storyline is falling apart as the retcons continue. There is no continuity as the story did not have anything in there with the new stuff before hand.
This is the point – to remove the canon and suggest something different.
Quote:
OH no! A child of the enemy died! We need to never attack them ever again! The entire history of the IS is filled with people losing children to war. This one child was going to die.
Levity is unbecoming when the identity of that one child is known. The entire fate of four realms hung in the balance – and even the outcome of the Clan Invasion with that one child and the despotic decision Victor made.
To what ends would any father go to safeguard or take revenge for their child?
Quote:
The FC would love to have the entire house Marik die
You are looking at this from the point of view of a House in the Succession Wars – we are no longer within this era we are in the Clan Invasion era – and as such – these petty views can no longer be maintained – it is anow an era where all the Houses must band together under one Banner – the new Star League – if they have any hope of defeating the Clans.
This is thinking from the Dark times not the new reformation era!
Quote:
This is also why you don't seem to understand what is truly in the storyline. This is canon.
Yes this is canon – in which all the major powers are agreeing to a certain level of humanity when it comes to war this is the truth.
Quote:
The fact that mechs can be refitted in the field, and jumpships can't doesn't mean anything.
The game is limited only by preconceptions as to what can and cannot occur …
The principle is sound if mechs can be omni so too can ships – gravity is turned to the off position in space remember … this is just a revamp of the old booster system stage one two and three … the engine is dead so just replace it and the room with it – it can still be attached and removed from the superstructure ….
Quote:
Who says a nuke has to be the size of a briefcase?
The delivery system and the damage that it is expected to produce against the target it as designed for will have a great deal of say in the size.
Quote:
The Black Dragon Society
Access to one or two is one thing, being able to produce en mass is another all together different.
You will require very specialist equipment and people both of which would be heavily guarded – so again the ability to put this together is debateable.
Quote:
The nuclear treaty between Russia and the U.S. is one such example.
Correct numbers are down and certain classes of nukes no longer exist … it did its job.
Without treaties the following would not exist
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/10/21 09:33 PM
45.51.181.83
|
What reality do you live in? The fall of the CC brings with it their fleets? You have to capture those ships in order to gain them. The only thing you might gain is the ship yards that build them. And in canon, that doesn't happen. So you have the same amount of jumpships with more territory they will have to deal with. And since the CC wasn't producing all the things the FC made or was at the same standard of living, even more funds had to deal with getting that going while digging your economy out of the sewer.
So all the wisdom Sun Tzu collected is no longer valid according to your statement. Good to know.
The fact that in 3025 there was a shortage of jump ships, says that given the same curve, it is not likely that without further stimulus, future numbers will remain about the same. Yes, new ship building facilities were built. No production numbers given for the new ones, but basing it on what we know, it would not mean they had hundreds of extra ships available in the future. And with this, the most like ships to be increased in number is the Invader, which was the most common jumpship, then the Merchant. Both carry 2 ships. The monolith was basically built at Galax, and 1 per 2 years would not have increased without a new yard. The ships built in other nations does not help the FC, but actually hinders it. More enemy vessels means more raids, and even more invasions.
How long into the future do you think it will be to get anything close to even half the number of jumpships the SL had? Without any wars from the 4th war, it would take over 100 years to get even close to half. With raids and invasions that slows things down considerably. The yards were NOT safe from attacks. They were not targeted directly, but missed shots WILL damage a yard when the ship fired at is behind that ship. Raids are aimed at destroying parts of the ship yard that are not building the actual ships, but do hold things that are needed, such as the jump drives, thrusters and other equipment. Even power is likely to be hit, which stops production until fixed.
The idea of the forces being bid down DID NOT occur to defenders. It also does NOT make it trivial for ground forces to be able to kill you in your command bunker. A single mech with a large bomb, which does not have to be nuclear, can wipe out large chunks of cities and such. This is not minimized.
And yeah. It is smart to send your defenses after the ship in the back and ignore all those ships shooting at you from behind or even in the front. You are going straight after the biggest ship. The clans do not leave equipment that isn't bid into a fight in the way of the opponents. It was very likely the warships were outside of a moons orbit during the invasion.
Ah yes. The idea of the invaders sending only part of their troops down is something that is noticed, yet the largest ships in the field don't do anything are not noticed. Do you see the circular logic here? You argue against yourself with a lot of things. You would trust the enemy not to send in more troops when they are slowed? Or would the first thing to be done in defense would be remove the ability of the enemy to reach you? You remove the forces coming to wipe out your support, then move onto dealing with other things. The dropships are very dangerous in more then one aspect. But of course you wouldn't see that as you read the books and are trying to push a theory that would devour you if they did not follow the book. The ground forces will do what the warships don't need to. They take the world without the warships even risking being fired upon.
Try to reach that 'satilite' when you have fighters, mechs and dropships taking out your fighters. I guess the single infantryman with a bolt rifle should have run into Germany instead of dealing with the forces that will kill him for not even trying to defend themselves moving across the countries to get there. Great strategy.
Also, the dropships can do the same thing, even better then a single warship can do, with relaying troop movements to ground forces. They can spread out and watch the whole world at the same time. This also includes entering the atmosphere and firing on the ground targets singularly, not having to take out half a continent with the strikes.
The fact that each clan was asking Comstar for what forces were on each world, and did not bother with the batchall for a while, says otherwise. They KNEW the IS would swamp them if they didn't do things in secrecy to begin with. The fact that they liked having the ability to target a world without more forces interfering with them was true as well.
Again, the alt comes in when you are losing the argument about canon facts needing to be used to say canon is wrong. Alls I needed was a single person to infiltrate the grand council on Strana Mechety when they were planning the attack and take out all the khans at once, That would have prevented the war. Maybe that should have happened during Hanse's wedding. A whole new IS would have been formed. Or maybe one of Amaris's guards kill Amaris before he killed Richard. Maybe just having the Death Star roll up, with the protective fleet would have wiped out the clans as they were moving to the IS. Sounds stupid when you suggest things that can't happen as the story line didn't give the opportunity to do so.
So ignore the rules because they prevent you from demanding actions that were not part of the story line. Why not ignore the game and move on to something else. This goes back to saying your vision must be followed by everyone else playing.
The clans humiliating the others is more important. Once they are dead, you can do what you want with the genetic material. Even if that means destroying Kerensky's blood line. They failed, so they are inferior and tainted. That is the way of the clans.
Putting words into the storyline that doesn't exist again. There is hope for a defense. There was hope to drive them back out. It was not going to be easy or quick, but could be done. Fighting the 'impossible' fight and winning in very common in story writing. And here you wanted to avoid this story line.
And another falsehood being said. No one is screaming you can not make your own universe. It is being said you can not demand yours be the only one that can be played, as well as saying your universe is canon. A point that is missed by you so often, it isn't even funny.
I want a war game that I can have fun with, and the back ground story doesn't bother me. I get missions to destroy the enemy, though I would like tech equal to them, it isn't expected. As the IS has the numbers verses the clans higher tech, it is a pretty even fight. The quirks the clans have makes the warship issue nothing more then a huge paperweight, with ONE exception. But that is used to make the clans evil villans, just like a nuke would do if used on your beloved house.
Nothing, except making the changes to accept the new information into it to make it work right is all that is needed. It does NOT have to change the entire story line. That is the key that is missing from your argument on this.
|
ghostrider
09/10/21 10:02 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Oh NO! Alexander Kerensky is going to die and to keep the IS from eternal warfare, we much place someone in public to make it look like he is still alive. What are we going to do?
Your statement :To what ends would any father go to safeguard or take revenge for their child? should cover the reason for Gemini to continue.
To safeguard the people of the IS, they kept the impression that Joshua was still alive, when all knew the disease he had would kill him eventually. Marik was NOT going to supply the FC with the equipment needed to prevent the deaths of millions of children. So Hanse made a deal to take him to the NAIS. As the war was far from over when Joshua was headed towards death, the kept the imposter in place to try and save the millions of children that would have died without those weapons. The fact that Katherine wanted to kill any child Victor had has not seemed to be deemed with any sort of notice. And yet where is the rage that Victor needed to take out his sister?
Wait. Didn't you suggest that the only prize that is worth it is being first lord over everyone? And it became that again after the clans were stopped. Yet because another threat was reducing the FC, means that thought had to stop? The concept of a first lord stopped with Hanse. Victor was ready to follow that thought as well. The clans caused the first lord issue to come up, and look what happened. It began and ended like the original one ended. The person on the throne was corrupt and used it as such.
Did it not occur to you that maybe Thomas or Sun Tzu was looking at the first lord position? By making the FC, and even the DC destroy themselves on the clans, they could step forward and claim the title in order to 'save' the two nations from the clans? Or that Walterly wanted to position and would sacrifice all for it? Like she pretty much did.
Yet two of the original 5 houses continued to ignore the conventions and used things like poison, as well as killing their own to gain power. And that is not including the time that the original writer of the convention was doing it.
So yeah. They all followed it.
Yeah. The game rules don't mean anything. That is why canon can't be right, as it follows the rules set down before the story line was created.
Why bother with the core being so large? Why can't you just send troops thru the HPG? It creates the jump field. Then again, why not just base the entire game on a single world and remove the need for a jumpship? Or have everything that can fly in space have a jump drive? Maybe then you can just hyper jump bombs into the enemies worlds and not have to risk sending your troops until they are all dead? Hell, why bother with any of this. Just push a simple button and win the game. Gametrainer.exe loading.... please wait.
A nuke can win a war if it is set in a command bunker's main room. It does not have to blow up a continent. Then again, a normal bomb in the command bunker can end the war as quickly.
Oh? You mean an organization like the Black Dragons wouldn't have secret facilities scattered around the DC? That they could maintain a huge array of mechs, vehicles and what do you know, dropships and jumpships, but couldn't build nukes in anything but a single one at a time? Wow.
So you believe that all nukes of specific classes were destroyed?
The treaties that were signed do not mean they actually work. There are human rights criminals that are still wondering around years after their crimes. But again. To list them is getting into the real world issue with the forums, so get off your backside and look at some of the conflicts that happened in the last 10 years. There are plenty of crimes against humanity that happened there. And no one has been held accountable yet.
|
Requiem
09/11/21 07:40 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
What reality do you live in? The fall of the CC brings with it their fleets? You have to capture those ships in order to gain them.
1. Then how does any former CC exporter export their goods or company that owns a Jumpship maintain their contract – as when you break a contract there will be penalties etc.
2. Where did the entire CC fleet magically disappear to – all of it not one captured?
3. So, how can anyone prove the number of ships the CC had at the beginning of the invasion and how do you determine the number of ships captured to those that disappeared …
Again how is an assumption you utilized in this case proven – as this appears more like wishful thinking.
Quote:
it would not mean they had hundreds of extra ships available in the future.
Correct – by 3050’s there are hundreds of new Jumpships available. As there are more yards and the number of slip docks has increased for the older yards – thus they have been able to produce more!
Quote:
More enemy vessels means more raids, and even more invasions.
Dependent upon if the Dragoons come clean or not!
However – yes there can be more raiding / invasions …so?
Quote:
Without any wars from the 4th war, it would take over 100 years to get even close to half.
Where is the mathematics behind this when no one knows the original numbers – production levels increase over time – number of yards and slips increase over time – production and efficiency increases over time – all parts of a ship can be built in house thus any shortages / time lost due to logistics disappears ….
ie. This is an assumption and not based upon any real facts …
I might as well say that it can be done in 20 years and due to the lack of information there would be absolutely no way to prove this.
It is all a personal assumption
Quote:
It was very likely the warships were outside of a moons orbit during the invasion.
Problem is that Canon stated they were in orbit of the planet they were attacking and not skulking away hidden by the moon like a surrat.
Also it was Clan SOP to engage in head-hunter / anti command and control warfare to believe that the Inner Sphere did not also engage in such tactics is ludicrous!
So when TPTB provide a weapon other than a nuke to take on a warship circa 3050 – this is the only go to weapon to expose the clan vulnerability to a lack of command and control – just as the clans believe the Inner Sphere forces are subject to a vulnerability of a lack of command and control – which again is ludicrous as they would have trained each officer to take over in the event their superior is unable to do their job!
Quote:
Try to reach that 'satilite' when you have fighters
Or aerospace fighters ….
The infantryman deals with what is in front of him.
The commanding general – looks at their complete TO&E and assigns units accordingly.
Quote:
All I needed was a single person to infiltrate the grand council on Strana Mechety when they were planning the attack and take out all the khans at once, That would have prevented the war.
Sorry no … new trials of position followed by a resumption of talks to discuss the invasion … they would not even skip a beat ….
Quote:
Sounds stupid when you suggest things that can't happen as the story line didn't give the opportunity to do so.
And when the story does provide the opportunity what then?
Quote:
if that means destroying Kerensky's blood line.
Overreach that will never be allowed …
Quote:
And here you wanted to avoid this story line.
Amend to improve …
Quote:
It is being said you can not demand yours be the only one that can be played,
How many times do I need to say this is not the case?
Quote:
the clans have makes the warship issue nothing more then a huge paperweight,
A point I categorically refute. They are the command and control of the clans – they are the biggest gun on the battlefield – these two points alone make them the primary target on the battlefield that must be taken out first.
So either give me a Navy or I will use nukes (and not the firecrackers canon wants to use) … it is as simple as that.
Quote:
Marik was NOT going to supply the FC with the equipment needed
This fallacy is bordering on the imbecilic …
Economically and politically this situation is providing the FWL with both a massive economic boon than can be used to rebuild their own military or any number of social projects it is also providing them with prestige amongst the other houses for their assistance.
The belief that Marik would cease all military assistance due to the death of his Child just goes to show how immature Victor is in understanding politics …
A point that Katherine would not have missed – or if he has asked her or anyone of his father’s / mother’s confidants – for example Morgan Hasek-Davion or his wife Kym Sorenson for example.
Victor’s character really isn’t that excellent at politics or running a realm at all when you take an in depth view! Pathetic comes to mind here ….
Quote:
The fact that Katherine wanted to kill any child Victor had
Really? And who is this child she is stalking? As even Victor did not know she was pregnant … at this future date …
As stated many times if she wanted the throne all she had to do was kill off Victor either in reality or politically … and given his stupidity when it comes to politics this really would not have been difficult. He never would have seen it coming!
Quote:
Wait. Didn't you suggest that the only prize that is worth it is being first lord over everyone? And it became that again after the clans were stopped.
What is the political reality of the situation once the new Star League has been formed?
The answer has already been provided.
Quote:
The concept of a first lord stopped with Hanse.
No, not really … if Victor had returned Joshua before he died he could have struck up a friendship with Thomas Marik – and rather than Omika he could have wed Isis and merged the FWL and the FC.
Quote:
It began and ended like the original one ended. The person on the throne was corrupt and used it as such.
This just shows how badly written the entire Clan Invasion Was.
Any sane person would have brought in an army of legal lawyers to hash out the rules of being the First Lord – which in all reality would have been just a rubber stamp, parade duties for the camera as a symbol and being the chairman of any meeting … and that is about it … what we see in the canon story is once more little more than a bad joke in an attempt to bring a dead story to life … and failed miserably.
Did it ever occur to anyone there would be impeachment clauses contained within the document so that one small step over the line and they would find themselves no longer the First Lord.
Quote:
Yet two of the original 5 houses continued to ignore the conventions and used things like poison
Who and when – and was the Ares convention still enforceable when they committed the crime?
Quote:
Then again, a normal bomb in the command bunker can end the war as quickly.
Valkyrie
Quote:
You mean an organization like the Black Dragons wouldn't have secret facilities scattered around the DC?
Facilities – Yes
Nuclear facilities with engineering and scientists etc – Highly doubtful.
Quote:
So you believe that all nukes of specific classes were destroyed?
Yep. – they really are not necessary anymore for war – they have been superseded – hence their removal looks good on paper but at the end of the day they would have been phased out anyway as they are no longer required.
Quote:
There are human rights criminals that are still wondering around years after their crimes.
And there are people who will never stop until they are dead to bring them to justice … point is the main armies do not want this to occur by their forces – thus it is drummed into them from the start what is and what is not legal.
No one wants a PR nightmare in war when they are trying to demonstrate that they are in the right.
Quote:
So get off your backside and look at some of the conflicts that happened in the last 10 years. There are plenty of crimes against humanity that happened there. And no one has been held accountable yet.
Problem is the President of the US government has refused to sign the treaty that would allow US soldiers to be tried in an international court so any alleged incidents that have been notified must be handled in house back in the US, and can anyone really see this ever happening and tarnish their image? No can’t say this will ever occur.
As for Africa first you have to capture them, and this is proving difficult.
Is there any specific issue you want to discuss?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/11/21 10:09 AM
45.51.181.83
|
An exporter is NOT going to just let their assets be seized by a new ruler. So unless they have an air tight agreement in place, they move their jumpships off to a new local. It is likely that a new ruler will negate the deal the exporter had with a company and bring in their own trusted shippers.
As the statement went, you hoped you gained more then lost. Jumpships magically disappear as they jump. Those loyal to the CC head for CC held territories. Some went off on their own. Variants of this are heading to the periphery in order to keep independent, while others may well head to the FWL or DC. Some may well have enlisted with larger companies, or smaller realms.
The third spot is complex. To have hard numbers means people looking to pick apart the story will say that 200 jumpships is not enough to run even the CC. Which I would agree with. There needs to be plenty more. The idea that you seize every jumpship you see is a fantasy. You wanted to complain about keeping treaties, well you are pirating jumpships. Not all jumpships in use are nation owned. And not all jumpships in a nation are locally owned. There will be DC owned jumpships in the CC and vis versa. Some will be hired by Comstar or even the FC. So it appears yet another logic hole opens up in the alt. It seems that you can steal everyone's property.
I said they would not have hundreds of extra ships in the future, and you said correct, then say they would have hundreds of new ships in the future. This does not make sense. To agree their wouldn't be, then say there would be.
Even if the Dragoons announced they were from the SLDF forces that left, it would not stop the fact that the houses, as well as other entities, would not stop raids. Those very raids is part of why the IS has a lack of equipment. Raids are normally against targets like manufacturing plants, or just to take out enemy units. They are also done to see how, when, and where enemy reinforcements are sent to worlds. This allows for invasions to succeed. All this means losing equipment, not gaining it. And you don't see why this is counter productive to building forces to fight the clans. Where is this supposed great comprehension? This is simple logic.
You put in your assumed numbers on everything, so don't go there. The fact the SL had over 5000 warships, meant they had far more jumpships in service. They were needed to keep supplies moving back and forth from the SLDF bases, and this is not counting the rest that dealt with non military needs. So even a high of 3000 before the start of the rebuilding, it would take more then 20 years to bring it up to even half of the SL numbers. At 100 a year, you would just reach the warship numbers, not the jumpships. And this is not including what was available outside of the TH's control.
How does a warship in orbit attack a world without bombarding it? They MIGHT be able to help defend other orbiting assets, but it is known the clans did not have large aerofighters aboard their warships. And those would only be used defending the assets, as if they were bid into the attack, would be in atmosphere with the attacking forces.
Assigning forces statement in only partially true. Most of the time in war, especially when you are the defender, you don't have the option to change out units. You are stuck defending with what is there. And that is IF you had them to begin with.
Again the ignore part of that statement makes the case. The full statement goes : Try to reach that 'satilite' when you have fighters, mechs and dropships taking out your fighters. Leaving out everything beyond fighters changes the statement. This is why you get hammered for statements. You leave out the context that explains the concept.
I do suspect this is what you do with comprehending things. Leave out the supporting information and come up with inaccurate data.
|
ghostrider
09/11/21 11:12 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The entire outlook of the clans would change if they had to go thru that many trials, in order to replace the leadership. The forces that would have gone, would have been depleted for a time, which would put the clans on the back foot. And with those driving the clans gone, the interclan rivalries would flare back up, forcing even more losses as they move to eliminate each other again. But that this was meant as sarcasm. I only need line of thought.
There are some things that a game will never provide an opportunity for. Battletech should never have a Deathstar, that destroys entire worlds with one shot. I mean complete obliteration, not just lifeless. If they try, then the game is pretty much dead.
Side note: The thought that with disabling the jump core safeties, could you send a jumpship bomb into the center of a world and destroy it?
A failed blood line is left and forgotten by all, no matter WHOSE bloodline it is. That is the way of the clans. What are they going to do? Brag that I got the genetic material for a bloodline that couldn't keep up?
The continued use of the terms the only way forward, and has to be rewritten says otherwise.
Warships are not the C&C for ground fights. Those aboard them do not get involved in those fights, unless bid into it. And with that, when you don't have the resources to destroy them, you deal with what you can, then look into taking them out. The assumption that all planets have regiments of Aerofighters is the issue. Besides those attached to RCTs, can you name more then one Aero regiment? There isn't many.
So you assume that Thomas would not step back and let the FC burn a while before trying to help makes you believe the rest of the IS would be fine? The FC would be set upon by blackmail by Thomas as they were grow more and more desperate for resources as the clans advance. It could well win him the life of first lord for a reformed Star League playing this game. Oh yeah. The result that all the leaders want. The dead title of first lord. And Thomas could well have kept bleeding the FC, until they complied with his demands. As long as the clans lost in the end, what would it matter to him if the FC and DC were pretty much destroyed? It makes it easier for him to take over. Sound like something the 'ulitmate' title would produce? The only thing that is wrong with this is, the FC would lose by the history of the responses.
Katherine killed Omi to hurt Victor. She knew they would produce a child sooner or later, and prevent her ascension. And again, you say Katherine could have destroyed him without much effort, but yet say that she would not use him to destroy the others in the IS to gain power. His warlike ways could well have destroyed any resistance to the FC ruling over all. But the lack of vision shows why this would not be.
Your lack of reading the story line shows thru. Victor fell for Omi when they were on Outreach together. There was no Isis romance. And a merger of the FWL with the FC would not have happened, as the FWL would NOT have agreed to let the Steiner line rule over them. Also, this would have cause Katherine to kill Isis and cause the war anyways. That is the way of the Katherine. That would also mean the LC would be pretty much destroyed, as instead of a weakened FS, from a lack of jumpships, to the FWL with the FS hitting Katherine in the LC. Her dreams of being first lord would die at that point, and her alliance with Vlad would show up. She would call on him to help her, and he would refuse.
One point you seem to forget with the concept of returning Joshua before he died. Joshua would never have survived the trip. He was dying in the hospital where he was being treated. Jumping puts a strain on the human body. For Victor to even try, would be seen as Victor kicking the boy out of the FC, to kill him on purpose. That plays into Katherine's hands.
Badly written that the corrupt people on the throne would do bad things? You want logic, yet would suggest this?
I have not seen the writing of the SL accords, so couldn't begin to suggest there is a clause to remove the current first lord.
The Ares convention was not enforced long after it was created. Even House Liao was violating it when it was done and enforced. How did that turn out? Oh yeah. Nothing happened to the CC over their violations of it.
So during the succession wars, violations were not enforced. To even suggest it could be enforced after it was discarded is a poor attempt to grasp straws.
Valkyrie? You really love apples and oranges. Taking out Hitler would have extended the war, not shorten it. With the clans, the leadership was far better then WWII. As explained earlier, the clans would have turned on themselves trying to create a new dynasty among them. So many blood names would have died to make sure their line was the leaders, that it would be left up to the ones that were hurt, but not killed to take over.
You think that scientist would not have the notion that they were far more important then some of the socially appointed leaders in the DC society? That they would think that their ways were the proper form of loyalty? They opposed the Kurian line. You sure you understand human nature? This suggest otherwise.
So you went out and checked all of those weapons that were supposed to be destroyed personally? Wow. That must have taken a lot of time.
Oh. You didn't you just took someone elses word for it. Just like the ABM issue. They were illegal, yet they were still made and deployed. Just like chemical weapons being banned, yet showed up in a few wars.
Funny. The leaders of a lot of countries are elected, not military. So when the commander in chief orders the use of those weapons, the military is under orders to use them. hmmm... Do you disobey your countries leader, or do as told?
I was not talking U.S. soldiers. I was talking other areas of the world, but am not going to get into the real world events by naming them.
And the example you provided shows that the international courts can't do what the treaty implies.
|
Requiem
09/11/21 04:57 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Those loyal to the CC head for CC held territories.
First protection of civilian property is part of the rules of war – thus an exporters property will not be seized, this includes their Jump-Ships – the taxes however will now be required to be paid to their new Liege.
And if there no longer is any CC territories to speak of other than the newly created St Ives.?
How is anyone to determine the number and type of ships that are located anywhere so as to determine boarding and capture protocols and numbers?
Is there anything in the rules that covers when a military unit acquires a vast territory as to the percentage of jump-ships they acquire?
This is, therefore, conjecture only as to the remaining Jump-ships pre and post - it is at the purview of individual writer or the GM.
As for ship numbers – Logic dictates if the back story includes an advancement in technology to such a point that you equal and surpass the Star League it is also reasonable to assume that the primary problems of each House would at the same time be addressed. And for all Houses the majority of their problems stem form the number of Jum-ships they currently have – thus more ship-yards and slip docks the more ships produced – leads to a reduction in both civilian and military issues and a proliferation of technology to all the worlds within their realms – thus reducing the rich and poor status and increasing productivity through the transport of both raw materials, food, water, and advanced technology … etc.
The question is how fast is this Renaissance occurring throughout the IS per House ?
Thus we are again back to conjecture and personal opinion – thus I suggest we agree to disagree and just leave it at the whim of each writer / GM for their game – if they wish to tack this track.
Quote:
Even if the Dragoons announced they were from the SLDF forces that left, it would not stop the fact that the houses, as well as other entities, would not stop raids.
It depends on the chain of events and the House Lords at the time – are they enlightened such as a Hanse Davion / Katrina Steiner or are they more reactionary – such as a Takashi Kurita
Is a consensus reached as to a plan – or an agreement for a Star League – hence no raiding by the major houses
Or does the whole idea fall apart due to ignorance and personal ambition and a belief that they can win by fighting alone – hence the raiding and the personal animosity and rankling malice continues.
Both are equally viable scenarios the writer can pursue.
Quote:
it would take more then 20 years to bring it up to even half of the SL numbers. At 100 a year, you would just reach the warship numbers, not the jump-ships.
As per https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
2571 - Birth of the Star League 270 Regiments – 500 capital Vessels
2764 SLDF 15,000 regiments – 15,000 regiments and just as many Warships, Jump-ships and Dropships
200 years – equates to 75 military ships per year (not civilian)
So how many times this figure would represent both civilian and military – again subjective number of 3 to 10 could easily be considered ….
So again, it is up to the writer / GM to determine a viable figure for their game.
Quote:
How does a warship in orbit attack a world without bombarding it?
Presence alone is a threat that requires an immediate strike – the best defiance is a good offence – strike them before they strike you – they are part of an invasion force and by their location alone they are part of a threat that must be neutralized.
Quote:
The entire outlook of the clans would change if they had to go thru that many trials, in order to replace the leadership.
Really – half a dozen to a dozen trials per clan would change the outlook – so I doubt it unless the Crusader / Warden number changes or the Khan / sa-khan warden / crusader position changes with the leadership change.
Quote:
A failed blood line is left and forgotten by all, no matter WHOSE bloodline it is.
Even one that has a quasi religion based on it? This is no ordinary Bloodline, it can never be forgotten.
Quote:
Those aboard them do not get involved in those fights, unless bid into it.
And how does the forces on ground know this? They don’t ….
Quote:
Besides those attached to RCTs, can you name more then one Aero regiment? There isn't many.
For the AFFS -field Manual Federated Suns Book No 1719 page 23 – aerospace Units
The AFFS groups its aerospace forces into several different categories
Regimental Wings are permanently attached to BattleMech Regiments
Naval forces are permanently attached to a naval task force or warship
Independent wings
Ground support wings are primarily conventional
Guard units are aerospace forces attached to a militia unit
And then there are also Academies who maintain their own Cadre of forces …
So it is not only RCT – it is also Navy, Independent, Ground, Militia and Academy that must also be considered.
And when you add all these together then what do you get?
Quote:
So you assume that Thomas would not step back and let the FC burn a while before trying to help makes you believe the rest of the IS would be fine?
Rewriting Thomas’s character? this is not the Thomas who formed the Knights.
Though if you want to go down this track for your story that is up to you.
Quote:
The only thing that is wrong with this is, the FC would lose by the history of the responses
Doubtful, they have their own manufacturing facilities, and as stated before, turning the key to a ‘total war logistics scenario’ changes everything with regards to the availability of logistics within the IS.
Quote:
Katherine killed Omi to hurt Victor. She knew they would produce a child sooner or later
Question why did Omi hide her pregnancy and their child?
Ans she knew the knowledge of such a child would force Victor to abdicate his throne - can you imagine how the Draconis March alone would receive such news?
So if Omi did have a child and Katherine did obtain proof it would be the political end of Victor as ruler and provide her with the right to assume the throne!
So in all reality if Victor and Omi did get frisky she would most definitely be cheering from the side lines and preying for a child …
Quote:
There was no Isis romance.
That was canon – Omi romance
Alt History – The child is returned and not replaced – Thomas is thankful to Victor for this chance to say goodbye to his son – a friendship ensures due to this goodwill – political parties on both sides recognise the benefit of a FC / FWL alliance via marriage – a point that was reached all throughout the time of monarchies … and was also reached with his parents …
And this is not a Steiner Line – this is a new Marik-Davion- Steiner Line
And yes any attempted marriage by Victor would cause Katherine to act
And no this would not mean that the LC would be destroyed as she is not the ruler of the LA – The LA never came into being as there was no war between the FC and the FWL over the replacement of Joshua.
It would also mean that Katherine never met Vlad – thus this story no longer exists.
Quote:
Joshua would never have survived the trip.
Debateable on how fast the command circuit is.
As Joshua may not leave the hospital – Thomas may come to him.
Or they may meet somewhere in the middle of the journey
And no it is not Kicking the boy out of the FC, it is getting him home to be with his family when the end comes … a very human action that would play well in the media and infuriate Katherine.
Quote:
a clause to remove the current first lord.
How many clauses are not only written into a constitutional document but also corporate documents with regards to their CEOs conduct?
This is not a new proposition.
Quote:
violations were not enforced.
How many violations were there whist the Ares conventions were in force?
Please List.
Quote:
Taking out Hitler would have extended the war, not shorten it.
If Valkyrie had succeeded – the Europe war would have been over within less than a week.
Quote:
the clans would have turned on themselves trying to create a new dynasty among them
Sorry no this is not the case! You are looking at a very few at the most.
Quote:
You think that scientist would not have the notion that they were far more important then some of the socially appointed leaders in the DC society?
Again you have to understand how Japanese society works – it is an arch where everyone knows their position .. so no this view does now work – within a western society however this is believable.
Also any person who steps out of line soon finds themselves introduced to the ISF.
Quote:
So you went out and checked all of those weapons that were supposed to be destroyed personally?
Inspection teams …. actually make sure this occurs.
https://www.un.org/depts/unmovic/ExecChair/Blix%20in%20Ottawa.htm
The role of Inspection as a part of the effort to prevent the possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction
Quote:
Funny. The leaders of a lot of countries are elected, not military. So when the commander in chief orders the use of those weapons, the military is under orders to use them.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-orders-3332819
What to Know about obeying an unlawful Military order?
Which contains the following quote “These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders.”
Quote:
the international courts can't do what the treaty implies.
Can any court and police be 100% effective all the time or are there some crimes that slip through due to a lack of evidence or a lack of suspects etc
So can you hold international courts to a higher standard when the local police cannot even be 100% effective?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/11/21 06:32 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Seizure of private property is NOT prevented with the rules of war. To destroy property is frowned upon, but the only time destruction is 'protected' is when it was done purposefully and with malice. Otherwise no one would fight in or from a city. The whole idea to invade, especially for you, is to seize property from the enemy. Most factories making military units ARE PRIVATE PROPERTY. Not sure why this had to be said.
To build thousands of jumpships in 60 years is not possible with the canonverse. Even with building new yards, this is not possible in the time frame. You are talking over 5000 new ships to even begin to reach what the SL had in warships. That is at the height of the SL. Dozens if not more ship yards then the houses have. The game says 10 years to make one ship yard. It does not say that is standard, slow build or fast build. So even if they started in 3020 when the Dragoons got the orders, that would means the crews could only build 3 ship yards in that time. It does NOT say it was multiple bays or not, so there is some leeway. But not enough to come up with 4000+ jumpships in 30 years.
So how many shipyards did the SL have pumping out ships? Thousands?
Again, trying to refer to the alt when canon history is being argued shows you have no clue on what the canon story line actually is or does. This is why you don't understand how things were working. The FS did NOT get every jumpship the CC had when it took the Terran March worlds. They also did not take every Jumpship from the FWL when they took the worlds from them. Just like the DC did not take every jumpship the FC had when they took some worlds. More then a few of them were owned by international corporations that served multiple houses. Conscription is possible, but unlikely when it came to any of those ships encountered. There is no complete destruction of the CC in the canon story, so suggesting the jumpships could not return to CC space is completely false.
The houses raided each other during the original SL. It is very likely the SL did the same damned thing. The treaty or law that states this would be broken when it was to a nations advantage. Of course, most would claim pirates did the damage or even better, renegade mercs carried it out. Those merc would be 'punished' some while being rewarded greatly. The need to have this explained is remarkably stupid. This is not a guess. It is fact. Canon would have this happen no matter what. The alt has no bearing here again.
Drop alt from all conversations saying canon is wrong. You seem to be unable to use canon numbers at all. The constant saying alt does this is why you are being proven wrong when arguing about canon. You want alt, leave canon out of it. There is no argument of the alt proves canon wrong. There is little, if anything that shows alt proving canon wrong. You continue to say alt is the full proof. It is not.
Half a dozen trials? You do not understand the clans at all. Without the khans to put a limit on what is going on, EVERY bloodnamed warrior would kill and die to become the next khan. There is no one to stop the trials of refusal or grievence from each battle. The only thing that would slow it down or stop it is running out of machines. Then all those bloodnamed slots would have to be filled. Again, you have not even begun to think this thru.
And you still have not answered how to attack a warship when the fighters and dropships block your way. Sorry. You would nuke them as well, as it is the only viable alternative. What a bunch of crap.
And don't worry. There will be no where to return to, but then you would suggest all fighters would suicide to even get to the warship, much less hit it. And again, the alt does not have any say in this. It is a canon discussion.
The Great Kerensky decided to tie his genes to the Wolf Clan. That clan has proven that even the Kerensky heritage could not save it. Therefor Kerensky's choice was flawed, and could not save the Wolf Clan. He will remain the father of the clans, but his legacy will end at that. His genes failed to produce warriors strong enough to keep them alive. So they much be left in the dust along with all over bloodnamed genes.
So even with the religious backing, they would allow the Kerensky line to die out. Maybe mixing it with other genes, but the blood name Kerensky would not be used afterwards.
Wait. You said the incoming dropships would bid away their forces, so the defenders would not have to fight them all, but now you say they would not know this. Pick one. This is why the defenders fighters have to take out the landing forces first, then hit the warship. They could not reach them otherwise.
Name more then one Aerofigher regiment not attached to an RCT. The information given says Aerofighters, not regiments. This means they could have a whole lance of 2 fighters. Some military dropships have fighter bays attached to the ships. Even 9 Overlords worth of ships do not equal an Aerofighter regiment. So try again.
By the way. How many dropships are guarding a world at any time? Hesperus would have a few, along with capitals, but how many guard other worlds?
What where the Knights of the Innersphere? A Marik made unit to show up all other nations, by not only being made by them, but commanded by the FWL. They convinced some of the best in other realms to quit their homelands and join the unit. They were to show what should be done, yet Thomas also used the FWL forces to do the dirty work as well. So basically the Knights were a show piece in the IS history. Much like the SL was hundreds of years before.
Again, running to alt, as your argument of canon being wrong faulters. The FC was losing to the clans. Some of their mech facilities were in clan hands or vulnerable to clan attack. Twycross being a major one. There is no doubt the FC was going to be hurt badly by the Clans. The Marik refits were to help slow and possibly stop that, but the time was cut short with the Comguard defense. If not for that 'miracle' the FC would have had to deal with the clans hitting Skye and possibly Hesperus. Yes, the clans would have to take the factory back or fact a constant supply of units hitting them. This would turn into a must, as it was an SL base before Steiner got their hands on it.
|
ghostrider
09/11/21 06:58 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Try using real logic here. The clans were going to Terra to reinstate the SL. What happens after the Ilclan was made? They would start taking back the old SL worlds to form the SL again. Then they would punish the houses that refused to help Kerensky with taking out the traitor Amaris. It would not be over night, but those would end up being their goals sooner or later.
Omi knew the information of a child would destroy the DC when they needed to be focused on the clans. She knew it would destroy the FC as well when they needed to focus on the clans. Katherine was all for Victor being destroyed, yet she only found out about the child after killing Omi. Had she known before, she would have killed the child to hurt him, and used that to remove the FC from his rule in one swoop. Yet the fact her OWN people rose up against her when she tried upset her. The FC would have shattered, and left Katherine with little of the former powerful realm. And the information of a child would not have to be released at that time. Just letting him suffer would suffice for now. She could reveal the child later. That is the type of person Katherine was.
And again, the alt has no bearing when canon is being discussed. Isis would NOT have been set up to marry Victor.
Time of being in space wasn't the issue. The fact that jumps create issues for the passengers is. This was said, and ignored. This is why people get nasiated from jumps. Joshua was already weakened, this would have killed him at that point.
Given the fact that Sun Tzu was not removed thru those clauses, it would suggest there weren't any. NO mention of it being done either. So show the place in the agreement where it is at.
Well the CC was still violating it against the TC with it being started, while nukes being used the 1st and 2nd war, as well as mass executions of civilians happened, on top of doing things like destroying water purifiers and jumpships to force the enemy into trying to save those people from torturous conditions. You have the history of everything written out. Or did you skip this, as it would interfer with your alt by providing the truth of what happened?
How many fiefdoms appeared in the game? The clans would have found the lure of making themselves as kingmakers was too much. They would have gone looking to making their blood line gods among the IS. They were on their way there with their views when they invaded.
So the tale of the 47 Ronin isn't true? The one lord thought he was better then another, so set up a lie to advance his position? Where is the honor here?
And again, you don't seem to know what based on is. It is not the exact following of.
And yet you believe they were all destroyed and no more made? I got some nice ocean front property in Arizona that is for sale.
So the fact that there can not be 100% means that people commiting crimes are getting away with crimes against humanity? Doesn't this go against your own implication that everyone gets punished?
|
Requiem
09/12/21 05:39 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Seizure of private property is NOT prevented with the rules of war.
Fortunately, this is not the case – private property is currently protected under International Law.
Https://casebook.icrc.org/glossary/property
Why else would Uncle Chandy invest in businesses outside the DC?
Thus ownership is maintained – dividends are maintained – it is just the product is now sold to a different house and with a different tax requirements …
All else being the same though!
Quote:
To build thousands of jumpships in 60 years is not possible with the canonverse.
Utilizing the figures noted above the star League produces 750 new military Jump-ships every 10 years. Thus hen you factor in civilian manufacture I would assume this figure should be increases by a factor of 3 to 10, depending upon the number of yards and slip ways operational at the time.
As for this ‘1 yard every 10 years’ business – My bet is it is set in the 3020’s so by the 3040-50’s this statement has no validity at all.
Thus in 30 years I can easily surmise that 400+ jump-ships have been manufactured once the Star League technology has returned to the Inner Sphere.
Quote:
There is no complete destruction of the CC in the canon story, so suggesting the jumpships could not return to CC space is completely false.
Then what percentage was captured? And where is the proof to support this accusation.
Quote:
The houses raided each other during the original SL.
Yes they did during the Hidden Wars – and what happened to them when they did? The SLDF hit them down hard!
As for the remainder – how many, and how advanced were their technology and who was present to hunt them down will determine how much they got away with.
As for Canon they were so few, had pitiful military equipment meant that the damage they caused was severely limited.
It was only in rare cases that an advanced and sizeable captain took hold.
Quote:
how to attack a warship when the fighters and dropships block your way
Primary force engages
Secondary force flanks
It is really not that difficult.
Quote:
you would suggest all fighters would suicide to even get to the warship, much less hit it
Sorry these comments are in regards to the DC and Turtle bay … only
Quote:
Drop alt from all conversations saying canon is wrong.
What other would or phrase would you prefer to demonstrate the how completely lacking the story is?
Quote:
There is little, if anything that shows alt proving canon wrong.
Virtually every topic studied has degrees of errors found – just that some are pronounced (and lacking in realism) than others ….
Quote:
EVERY bloodnamed warrior would kill and die to become the next khan.
And yet the Loremaster steps in when the Khan is otherwise unable to fulfill their duties …
Also only those considered worthy by the Clan can participate – it is NOT open to just anyone!
Quote:
He will remain the father of the clans, but his legacy will end at that.
TPTB decide to make Clan Wolf the il-Clan when they took Terra with Jade Falcon … as if we couldn’t see that coming from the start … especially when you consider how favourable they were both treated during the invasion … what a shocking revelation? (satire)
Quote:
Name more then one Aerofigher regiment not attached to an RCT.
TPTB decided not to name them – only included notes such as House Steiner: The Lyran Commonwealth page 114 – The Commonwealth Aerospace Force.
They also decided not to name the defensive Dropship fleets
Thus all that was supplied are those attached to some of the units and reservist units such as ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Qanatir_Melissia_Theater_Militia
3062-3067 Qanatir MTH Aerospace 1 Wing – Kommondant Julia Sollars
1st Alarion Jaegers Air Wing
1st Bolan Jaegers Air Wing
1st Coventry Jaeger Aerospace – Wing
1st Donegal Jaeger Air Wing
1st Skye Jaegers Air Wing
27th Arcturan Air Wing
7th Donegal Guards Aerospace Wing
11th Donegal Guards Air Wing
13th Donegal Guards Aerospace
14th Freedom Reserve Fighter Wing
14th New India Fighter Wing
9th Regulars Aerospace Group – 2 Wings 712th Alliance Fighter Wing & 1119th Alliance Fighter Wing
22nd Skye Air Wing – 2 squadrons
Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser – Wing
And this does not even include the naval units as no one could be bothered at this stage even though it was written they existed ….
All in all it is very disappointing that they never diced to create an exact TO&E per house at any one time …. Just some of the land forces …
Quote:
There is no doubt the FC was going to be hurt badly by the Clans.
Sorry but I do not believe in substandard writing such as this – that is why the Alt is required so as to restore a piece of sensibility to a woefully written diatribe …
Quote:
If not for that 'miracle' the FC would have had to deal with the clans hitting Skye and possibly Hesperus.
Problem – given the entry numbers provided they would have run out of front line units well before this stage – so unless they give up worlds to create a front line unit this is just going to get worse.
Quote:
but those would end up being their goals sooner or later.
Give it another 5 years and they might print another book on the issue!
Quote:
yet she only found out about the child after killing Omi
No Victor found out … there is no evidence to suggest she ever discovered that Omi gave Victor a child.
Quote:
Yet the fact her OWN people rose up against her when she tried upset her. The FC would have shattered, and left Katherine with little of the former powerful realm. And the information of a child would not have to be released at that time. Just letting him suffer would suffice for now. She could reveal the child later. That is the type of person Katherine was.
No this is not who Katherine is …
And who of her own people rose up?
Quote:
Isis would NOT have been set up to marry Victor.
And yet he did marry her and they did have three children with her.
Quote:
this would have killed him at that point.
Except for the fact he could have been attacked to machines to support him
And he could have never left the hospital as his father cam to him !
Quote:
Given the fact that Sun Tzu was not removed thru those clauses, it would suggest there weren't any.
Given the fact that the writing had deteriorated to a few levels below sub-par I am not surprised.
By this stage any reality in the universe was long gone.
All I can say is that I am glad I killed off the CC and Sun Tzu …
Quote:
How many fiefdoms appeared in the game?
What? Please elaborate further …
Quote:
The 47 Ronin – The Ako incident
Their lord Asano Naganori was compelled to commit seppuku for assaulting a powerful court official – Kira Yoshinaka
Kira (an official) demanded bribes to be teach Asano him matters of protocol in preparation for an upcoming visit by representatives of the emperor.
Asano refused – Kira publicly insulted him
On the day of the visit Asano drew his short sword and attempted to kill Kira …
And as such Asano committed seppuku
Your point being?
Quote:
and yet you believe they were all destroyed and no more made?
And why keep a weapon that has been superseded by others?
Quote:
Doesn't this go against your own implication that everyone gets punished?
Not my quote! Though Kama is a real **** – and you have to lover her for it!
Edited by Requiem (09/12/21 05:41 AM)
|
ghostrider
09/12/21 01:37 PM
45.51.181.83
|
From the response, you don't seem to understand what invest and seize is. Invest is where you give money for stock and not actually own a business, while seize, especially when the world it is on is conquered means the original owners are left without their business. The same thing happens when a business is nationalized, or by definition, SIEZED by the government of the nation there were built in.
And yet the statement of reaching SL era levels of jumpships is proven, as well as not being able to make thousands of jumpships in 30 years. Notice the s at the end of thousands. That means even a low number of 2,000. 1000 would be difficult as well. The SL had dozens, maybe hundreds of larger ship yards around the IS that was pumping them out. No damage preventing full use or even a lack of parts. So again, NO. You are not going to get near SL numbers in 30 years.
Oh yeah. What was that about using information that is that old? Most of those facilities that the SL used were destroyed or are being used by the IS now. Comstar got the biggest ones still around when they got the Sol system.
Had the FC captured a large number of jumpships from the CC, it would have been stated as such in the books. The fact that Hanse could not continue the war because worlds were running out of necessities, he ended the war. There is nothing that even HINTS at gaining a large number, which could well be as low as 20. There is nothing stated that they got even one. Which I would agree, is very stupid considering what was going on.
You still want to say that you have unlimited forces in which to strike with. A regiment of fighters MIGHT be able to do so, but the worlds did not have them stationed there. As said in the Trell 1 saga for the Grey Death Legion. There were no defensive Aerofighters. That means 0. So how many of them are diversionary and how many are primary? And as stated, the warships and others did have fighters stationed on them, as well as the dropships being a combat force. So again. How many fighters do you have to engage the warship? Forget alt entirely. You can't keep the fake numbers out of your head when arguing canon stats.
You really forgetting things that quickly? Or just not reading the posts? It has been said that you want to prove canon wrong, then use canon facts. Example. The average of 2000 jumpships in the IS can't be right as they would need that just to run one nation right, if they have to ship so much to each world. 2 dropships at a time would mean some worlds would need at least 4 to 5 runs a month to keep it supplied with water. And the asteroid moving jump company is not there to do this. Food being the same thing. Defiance would need dozens to keep work going as they need the supplies coming in, and the product moving out. The capitals would have just as many, with some jumpships being assigned to military units, which effectively takes them out of service keeping the worlds alive. Nothing in this about an alt. It is using canon facts to show canon is wrong.
As stated before, the alt does nothing but put in fake numbers that don't exist in the canon game. If this is what you think proves canon wrong, then you need to go argue with other games as their numbers don't match. Maybe warhammer would be a good one to say canon is wrong. Your side hasn't defeated the enemy yet.
Worthy by the clan? Loremaster being able to prevent others from joining in the grand melee that would happen as each warrior would believe they have the right to be khan? It is the khans that said who is worthy and who wasn't. The lore masters have no real say in who can or can't be part of this fight, unless there is something like the person was named dezgra before the khans died, and even then, they can get into blood named fights thru the grand melee. So try something else as this failed.
It seems you need to brush up on your terms and numbers. Regiment 54 fighters. Wing 18 fighters. There was one Aeroregiment named in the old Davion house book. But since then, nothing. Now with the numbers a regiment is 3 wings. Big difference.
Demand a rewrite. that is why the Alt is required so as to restore a piece of sensibility to a woefully written diatribe …
This does not say my vision is the only way forward? The storyline as is makes sense. A few facts are off, but then that is true with what is shown with the alt as well. So skip your facts as a rewrite would be in order from the holes there.
And again, this does not show canon as wrong, just that it does not use your wishful numbers.
Katherine is very much the vengeful person that makes her targets suffer when she can. The entire Arc-Royal area rose against her. Skye still rose against her. More then a few LC units rose against her. Those that joined the Civil war with Victor rose against her. But that means the alt is wrong.
So demanding bribes is not against the honor code? Respect those below your position is one of those codes. There is no respect shown when blackmailing anyone. So my point being that there are more then a few examples of the code being violated. How can there be shame in defending ones honor? A superior failed to blackmail you, then shamed you in public. The loss of face would demand a fight with that person, no matter who they are. Well by your examples given of the code.
Why are their still bolt action rifles in national stockpiles? The fact that new weapons have surpassed some, does not mean they are useless. Nukes being something that can be used even if they are not megaton. It is also easier to divert blame, as you have more advanced units, so why have the crude one that a nuclear developing country would have? This is the way people think. I hate it, but it gets proven to me time after time.
The fact that Joshua was dying while attached to the machines in an environment that did not add stress like a jump does has nothing to do with the fact jumping would have killed him faster? Reality check.
|
Requiem
09/13/21 07:46 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
Comprehension failure shown. Making SL tech when everyone else is making SL tech. Not suspicious. Then it goes on to say making clan tech, very suspicious.
Problem with this assumption – how does anyone in the IS know it is Clan Tech when they do not even know that the Clans Exist to begin with?
As far as anyone in the IS knows this is just advanced technology … they have absolutely no idea as to its origins.
Thus, how can it be suspicious? Someone made a breakthrough is all they are aware …
Quote:
SL bases found all the time? Since when?
List was provided … and since when would everyone give up hunting them – there would be organisations whose job it is to locate them … just as there are people still hunting for pirate gold.
Quote:
What happened to the supplies that were in the SL bases the Dragoons found?
How when the majority of which were discussed are well and truly below their final line – with the exception of Camelot.
And any supplies there in should have gone to the Lyrans …. As per the anime …
Quote:
Where is the research into SL tech?
More to the point where isn’t the research into SL tech?
Quote:
So why bother with exposing yourself at the time.
As far as the IS is concerned - To make money!
As per the Dragoons – to actually do the job they were assigned to – to prepare the IS.
Quote:
Once the clans showed up, then they would need all the help you could get.
This is where you have your come to God moment – as soon as the Clans present are known to them they must inform all the House Lords …
Quote:
All your funding is being traced by all the houses that can. So yeah. It is that simple.
Sorry but no it is not that simple – even now there are certain ways to make your money disappear and then reappear … this is what Accounting firms re created for …. Tax minimisation, advice and for top 0.000001% who knows what they also provide …… also wouldn’t they have their own hackers on the payroll given the amount of money involved … they are just the next level of insurance.
Quote:
Most weapons manufacturers do NOT get a mech lance, much less company to guard it.
Isn’t this dependent upon who and what they are manufacturing as well as the amount of money they are bringing in and how important they are to state security?
Quote:
You said that once a factory changed hands, the previous owners were out of luck. The new owners would stop any sort of funds flowing to them.
Well this is not the case is it …
Quote:
the Dragoons would have to step up and claim the factories.
As stated previously this is not how business is done in the IS ….
They do not have to claim anything … as long as the goods are being produced the state will protect them.
Quote:
You really don't understand human nature? So produce Clan tech when SL tech was not even being made would not show loyalty to the IS, but as competition to the houses.
Sorry but no … it is normal in the IS to conduct industrial espionage where everyone steals from each other – it is normal for states to pinch tech from others and start building it in a different House … or how else could the BHP or ECM be proliferated so quickly …. It is not as if they all came to the same conclusion at the same time …
Quote:
Superior tech is not just handed out to people.
No it is sold in back rooms by people who are very good at what they do and by brokers who know the value of information …
There are ways and means, in the shadows, to get this done …
Quote:
The Skye Rebellion destroyed a few jumpships to keep the rebellion quiet for a short while. This is canon fact, not alt bs you are talking about. Also given the books say the jumpship production barely outpace the destruction of them due to combat and misjumps, there is battle damage destruction of them.
1st Where is this printed
2nd Outdated information does not have any reality in a current setting
Quote:
jumpships
Still – it has been proven that there will be an increase in numbers – with the fall of the CC even more - with the advancement of technology – even more
Thus the idea that they are limited in range no longer holds water.
Quote:
The large concentration of fighters were kept to defend very important worlds, or to attack enemy worlds that were very important.
Again once back to the point of lions for lambs
What is the single most dangerous threat to the IS and what will you do to defend your realm from this threat?
When you start to limit your response due to fear you have already lost the war!
Show me another way to destroy Warships and I will consider it – otherwise this is the only solution available – Big Wing Nuclear Strike groups.
Putting you fingers in your ears and burying your head in the ground and hoping they will not use an orbital bombardment is no way to fight a war!
Quote:
the home clans would not wait to absorb or do anything else but launch a full scale invasion into the IS.
Can I laugh now?
First you need to understand where you went wrong in the first War before you start repeating the mistakes of those you consider weak …
Repeating the same mistakes just proves that these Clans are short-sighted and do not understand what they are doing as Khans and sa-khans …
And what better way than to absorb the failures into your clan so that you can learn from their mistakes … rebuild and rearm and this time go in with a plan of attack that the IS are not prepared for …
Quote:
They would probably bombard and even nuke things to prevent the invaders from hitting the home worlds.
So we are now back in the Jihad story?
Quote:
Going after just the Jaguars did what it was supposed to do. Shut down the invasion without setting off all the other clans at once.
At what cost? The Clans now have a permanent colony within the IS – ow yes this is very smart! (satire)
What is the duty of every leader in the IS – to defend their people and their worlds it is not to allow a colony of barbarians who will never stop waging war on your borders to remain there, as this is the most imbecilic idea that could be considered!
Quote:
No. Aerofighters first job is to remove the threat of landing units. Then you hit the unknown ships
Then why have so many conventional fighters?
Only aerospace fighters can go into space – where as dropships and their cargo of military forces must go into the atmosphere.
Thus only aerospace fighters can engage warships with any chance of success …
This means arming them with nukes and sending them against warships as they ARE the primary target!
Can you really believe that an unknown military will not use their main guns against you if the whim was considered? You cannot take the risk, the warships must be destroyed!
Quote:
And your example of Hawaii is oranges.
Really ….
Quote:
As the Falcon warship was part of the attacking forces, and did nothing to bring operations against you, you leave it for the more immediate threat.
How do you know they will not use it? Go on tell me how they know that an unknown enemy who has parked a warship over you will not use it if they have the whim …..
As a General of an army who is defending this planet in the name of your realm and the leader of your house … can you really take this risk?
This is verging on cowardice in the face of the enemy …
Quote:
No rewrite is needed. The canon version used the numbers the developers wanted.
What happens when you run out of front line forces sue to the fact everyone is guarding a world they have captured and they still have not made it to Terra?
Go on complete a excel sheet and it becomes painfully obvious this will occur …
Quote:
Gemini was a good answer to keeping Marik supplying the troops needed to stop the clans. Joshua was going to die.
Sorry but I disagree … what this shows is the writing got very bad and the situation shows they turned Victor into a villain.
Quote:
Victor was NOT going to send the imposter to take the throne, it ends there
Then how was Marik to know this?
When the aim of the game is to become the First Lord – what this is demonstrating is the same game Liao did to his Father when he tried to replace him with a double …
A point his father’s aid would know as he is still alive and in charge of the Security as it was him who worked out who the fake was with the password to his BattleMaster.
So yes this really is a very stupid idea that Liao cooked up and failed not once but now twice – and in both times the person who used it was kicked hard in war by the other …
So yes this is a great plan (satire again)
Quote:
It was Katherine's quick thinking that saved the LA. And how does that get her the title of first lord?
Got her the title of Archon.
Quote:
Your analysis is she could end Victor at any time. Why not use him to further removal of the enemy while you can?
What is the first rule of Machiavellianism as well as that of the Borgia?
Cesare Borgia was made duke of Romagna by his father, Pope Alexander VI, in 1501. ... Cesare Borgia is Machiavelli's primary example of a prince who has great prowess, as displayed by his efforts to secure his state quickly after he was put in power. (as per google)
A price must be able to lie, cheat, and kill to secure the state … in a manner that will ensure their victory.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/13/21 10:31 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The fact that clan tech is more powerful then SL tech was, even with it being legend is where people would realize something was up. Anyone with any knowledge of SL tech would see the tech presented was beyond SL tech. It would be akin to making the F-22 before the Kittyhawk flight.
There have been a few times where the storyline has said that SL bases were found looted before the houses could get to them. And if they were found all the time, this would make the statement that no one was looking for the false.
The first word in that sentence, MOST, is very important. MOST companies were lucky to have a mech lance. If an invasion happened, then more may be dispatched depending on a whole slew of circumstances.
If the company is a single entity, then the payment to the owners would stop once a new 'owner' took it. Companies owned by international corporations were different. Taxes and such would go to the new owners, but the main income would still be going to the corporation. That is IF the new owner had some neutral or better relationship with them.
A new mercenary unit just shows up and starts producing tech far beyond what even the legend of the SL made, and you think that the houses would not move to shut them down? That they would not take that tech for their own, and horde it? Prevent the other houses from gaining it?
The fall of the CC will improve the number of jumpships produced? How is this? Even without the yards being damaged or sabotaged, it will only produce the same amount it did before being taken. How is this improving the production rate?
The Skye Rebellion Aerospace fighters were given orders to destroy jumpships in order to preven them from escaping and warning the LC command is where the destruction comes from. There is even a scenario where you play this out.
The single most dangerous threat is the one that destroys your charge. As stated and ignored, when the clans first started hitting the IS, they were though to be a large group of pirates. A diversion to draw away forces from things like Hesperus, so someone else could drop in and take it out. This is the way the IS has fought since the 3rd war began. Something that seems to be impossible for some to understand.
You deal with what you can with what you got. Those forces that are coming to take your bases and life by landing forces is the primary threat. Then removal of the forces between you and the big ship comes next. Once you can actually reach and attack the big ship, do you strike. Not having the forces to strike the big ship means you do what you can to prevent being taken over.
We know the clans were shortsighted about a few things. Their arrogance caused them to severely underestimate the scope of the invasion. Even when they invaded, most did not change their tune until it was too late. This is plot armor. The way the clans were to be defeated. But it still shows the fact that the clans do not remember things past their quickl battles. You do not absorb failure into your clans. The weakens your clan as if failure happened once, it will happen again. Bondsmen have to prove their worth before they can even try to do a trial of position. And most don't make it.
To swell your ranks, you would be tempted, but then they could do that with the freeborns and use them as fodder. But this is seen as wasting good mechs, so they don't entertain the honor to freeborns to even try. The only the best thought keeps them from being smart about a few things. But given the fact of what they went thru, limiting how many actual warriors there are, helps prevent the 'need' for nukes and bombardments.
The whole concept of using certain weapons takes on a life of it's own. Why even try to let a foe that has superior numbers land, when you can wipe them out with a nuke? Same thing when invading. You take out their clumped forces in a single strike. This comes from the use of certain methods. The excuse to hold back leaves entirely.
Oh, you mean the game was going to have more combatants in it, and the clans were that very thing? Had they took down the CC, FWL, or DC instead of taking up a chunk of the FC/LC it wouldn't be a problem. The idiocy about this is the bs of not making clantech. This is where the stupidity of this decision comes into effect. I know they did it because the IS would wipe out the clans as they would be on equal terms.
And the very thought of not allowing worlds to fall to the enemy is why the nuke fest happened in the 1st and 2nd war. To each nation, the other nations were those barbarians that needed to be wiped out to protect your worlds. So apply that to the successor wars long before trying it on the clans.
Can you believe that the enemy won't use all of the forces available to them in order to take you out? Bidding was not done in the IS before the clans. The idea of a wave of dropships coming in meant you are GOING to have land forces. The threat of the warships is minimal when you realize that if they want things in tact, they can NOT just bombard the locations. This is something from before the clans trying to limit damage. It is something the IS has done for a while. You have to land forces to take factories and such. Otherwise, normal bombs as well as asteroids would be used more often to wipe out defenders of worlds.
And the canon views do not have that many atmospheric aircraft on worlds. Most are ground units, like wheeled and tracked units.
How do you know the enemy with any sort of ships parked above you won't decide to drop a few nukes? If you are watching the ship, you know they can not bombard you without moving into position so their aft is facing the world. If that doesn't happen, then no bombardment is forthcoming.
As a general defending a world, to you risk sending out forces to their death, knowing you can't stop the enemy? Combat always entails risks. Keeping your fighters close to the planet and taking out the greater threat is where it is at. You know the ground forces WILL kill you. The ship in orbit will wait to make sure their ground forces are defeated before trying anything, otherwise they risk wiping out their own units. So as with everything in combat, threat assessment changes with the battle. And your own example of a military base being protected from orbital bombardments means the ground forces ARE the biggest threat.
The clan thoughts were that the IS was weak and would fold under their superiority. They were used to their own people, that did not revolt. It is a nerf put in the clans to help stop the invasion. Oh yeah. I can say they nerfed the clans be putting in the weakness as well as a lack of sustainable numbers. Wow.
The way Marik was supposed to know is the same way the entire argument on what should have happened knew. They got the book telling the future and worked around it before the end came up.
The only reason why it was found out was the blood sample. Thomas would have found out that the imposter was not going to be put on the throne when Victor ended the program. That would have come when the refit kits were not direly important. Hmmm. Imagine that.
The Hanse clone ran into issues as he was well known to those he worked with. Joshua was only well known to Thomas. And with no physical contact, would not have been found out.
You keep saying the only way to get first lord is to destroy the other nations. Katherine's quick thinking did NOT save the LA/LC. It opened up the Lyrans to having to deal with the clans permanently. Had the FC stayed on large happy family, they would have started removing the other clans from their territory. The FWL would be a lot smaller and Sun Tzu would probably be dead from the attack on the FC.
|
Requiem
09/13/21 07:00 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The fact that clan tech is more powerful then SL tech was, even with it being legend is where people would realize something was up. Anyone with any knowledge of SL tech would see the tech presented was beyond SL tech.
Lets look at this with a degree of objectivity … both have an internal structure, actuators, fusion engine, heat sinks, armour plating, Actuators, Diagnostic Interpretation Computer, Sensors, Life Support, Myomer, Environmental Sealing and weapons … Thus when making a comparison of like for like comparing a the Wright Flyer (the Kitty Hawk) with an F-22 Raptor is the same as comparing the Machie with the Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) Omni mech ….
So, I doubt this can be considered an objective assessment …
What is occurring, however, is going from the Locust to Mercury to the first Clan Omni – Clan Coyote’s– the Coyotl.
So in reality this is not that big a jump …. As prior to the omni being released officially I was tinkering with a Crusader that could change its weapons on spec … it really is not that a great leap in logic to take a single weapons system and convert it into an omni – just look as all the different types of APCs that stem from an original model – all the world’s military are constantly looking for ways to get the maximum bang from the lowest price – and this always comes back to finding ways to re-equip an existing model with new toys so as to keep the price tag down.
As how do we know that the F-22 was not created from advanced technology in the future that as sent back in the past for some reason …? When we look at the F-22 as an observer, or even an engineer, can we say with 100% objectivity that that the technology that was used to design it, is too advanced for our current level of technology as military tech is usually at the vanguard of available technology – so how does anyone know unless they were privy to all the testing and trial and errors that went into its development? As everyone would just take it on blind faith that the technology was developed in house. As the only way this becomes suspicious is as if the person questioning it was a fan of conspiracy theories - and how many conspiracy theories are believed currently?
Sorry but I do not consider this a plausible scenario – people will always take it on blind faith that the technology that went into its development was created in the inner sphere until they are provided with undeniable proof (such as the arrival of the Clans).
Quote:
If an invasion happened, then more may be dispatched depending on a whole slew of circumstances.
Wouldn’t the most important facilities have a permanent garrison attached considering this is an age of war?
Quote:
If the company is a single entity, then the payment to the owners would stop once a new 'owner' took it.
There are no new owners – as if there are new owners then there is no foreign investment in the game – ie. no Uncle Chandie’s purchasing foreign corporations for if they did then as soon as they did their holdings would be nationalized, their shares revoked and resold on the internal market as the investor was deemed a foreign citizen (hence illegal to own a portfolio with foreign stocks).
Quote:
A new mercenary unit just shows up and starts producing tech far beyond what even the legend of the SL made, and you think that the houses would not move to shut them down?
This ‘Mercenary Unit’ only has investments in these corporations as they are attempting to gain a high rate of return on their investment portfolio as a means of subsidizing their income from one source (risky) to many sources (reduced risk due to owning a well-diversified portfolio).
As isn’t this the cornerstone of a free market to obtain massive wealth!
There is no link however between their research and development arms and that of the Mercenary unit – as first you have to prove that this link exists!
Then you have to ask yourself why would I shut this down when my military forces are obtaining a massive upgrade? Also what happens if you did tamper with this and you suddenly found yourself in a backlash position where the opposition has more advanced weapons than you did?
Politicly this Mercenary Unit has massive power – touch it and you touch the third rail of politics – Zaaaap! (Though first you have to know that there is a causal link between the Mercenary Unit and the transfer of advanced technology – as the corporations will never tell – they are enjoying the massive profits and all this provides them … house, car, wife, children in private elite schools etc ….. so who is going to rock the boat?)
So no, self interest will win out – money and powerful weapon systems comes first before concern as to where this technology is actually coming from.
Quote:
The fall of the CC will improve the number of jumpships produced? How is this?
All civilian jump-ships are assigned as per normal.
All former CC militart jum-ships that have been acquired are now part of the FC Navy – ie they have more ships to use where they want – they can keep some along the boder with the FWL and they can put some into a pool of ships for special transport duty ….
And as the number of yards and slip-ways increases and as production increases as technology increases – ship numbers also increases ….
Quote:
The Skye Rebellion Aerospace fighters were given orders to destroy jumpships in order to preven them from escaping and warning the LC command is where the destruction comes from. There is even a scenario where you play this out.
Book and page number …..please.
Quote:
when the clans first started hitting the IS, they were though to be a large group of pirates.
Really? This holds true for about 30 seconds … then with the first image of a Clan Omni – its weapons, its heat absorption – their elementals – their fighters – their warships – this theory gets thrown out as implausible.
Quote:
forces that are coming to take your bases and life by landing forces is the primary threat.
Can be dealt with by conventional aircraft and ground forces
The only weapon that can engage a warship is Dropships and Aerospace fighters …. The dropships are not expendable as they may be required for retreat … however the aerospace fighters are expendable that ship must be destroyed – not only to destroy their Command and control / Reconnaissance / orbital bombardment capabilities – it needs to be destroyed so that the unit can retreat if necessary!
So either give me a weapon that can take out a warship or I have to use what I have on hand – aerospace fighters and nukes!
Quote:
We know the clans were short-sighted about a few things. Their arrogance caused them to severely underestimate the scope of the invasion.
This is not a complete assessment – yes there were many like this – however I would also like to point out that there were a few like the Clan Wolf Khans – Kerlin Ward and Ulric Kerensky, Natasha Kerensky ….
Who demonstrated exceptional understanding as to the issue at hand ….
Thus how many within the home clans are reactionary to those who actually stop and thing the issue through?
Quote:
Why even try to let a foe that has superior numbers land
Proportional response.
Conventional forces are fought with conventional forces.
WMDs are fought with the only weapon on hand aerospace fighters and nukes – give me something else and I will use that.
Quote:
they can NOT just bombard the locations.
WW2 – Operation Overlord – Warships were using their main guns with infantry being their spotters to direct fire on German positions.
How hard is it to believe that Clan ground forces will not call in an orbital strike to destroy an impediment if they deem it necessary. It it was an Inner Sphere General in the opposite position they would do it in a heart beat – this is the problem the IS Generals would believe the Clans would use such a tactic if they deemed it necessary as they believe they would in the reverse circumstances – Hence the need to designate the warship as the primary target and send up the fighters with the only weapon they have that has a possibility of destroying a warship.
Quote:
And the canon views do not have that many atmospheric aircraft on worlds.
Except for the point that canon stated that there are mass quantities of them. Remember the forum discussion on this very issue!
Quote:
How do you know the enemy with any sort of ships parked above you won't decide to drop a few nukes?
You don’t
Thus the need for a pre-emptive strike, to make sure they do not have the chance!
Quote:
you know they can not bombard you without moving into position
Really? No really?
How hard is it to move a gun battery and fire, it is not as if the ship has to be right on top of the target to fire – also can’t you just designate a target with a naval missile – hit a button and the naval missile will use its own guidance package to deliver the warhead to target.
Quote:
Keeping your fighters close to the planet and taking out the greater threat is where it is at.
And what happens to those fighters and your ground forces if that warship opens up with its batteries?
Quote:
And your own example of a military base being protected from orbital bombardments means the ground forces ARE the biggest threat.
How many continued blasts will it take for the dome to crack and kill all of your forces who are now trapped like rats just because you didn’t send out the fighters.
Fortifications are great against other conventional forces …. Against WMDs – nukes / warships not so much – so unless you have a shield generator on hand I do not think running into a fortress will work against a warship’s main batteries.
Quote:
The only reason why it was found out was the blood sample.
One image and a father would know that that child was not his!
Quote:
Thomas would have found out that the imposter was not going to be put on the throne when Victor ended the program.
For this to occur Victor would have had to actually told him – and by this stage all his credibility is gone, no one is going trust a person who hid the death of a rival lord’s child and replaced them with a duplicate ….
Any attempt at an explanation at this stage would be seen as Victor attempting to extricate himself from a crime by saying I had nothing to do with it or it was for the best of intentions that I did this … who exactly is going to believe him at this stage?
This is going to look like he is attempting to weasel his way out of the problem like a petulant child getting caught with his hand in the cooky jar.
Quote:
Joshua was only well known to Thomas.
Mother
Extended family – siblings, cousins, aunt, uncle ….
Nanny
Other servants in the household
Tutors
Medical personnel on the FWL side
So yes no physical contact whatsoever – he was placed in a plastic bubble as soon as be was born with only his father for contact (satire once more)
Quote:
You keep saying the only way to get first lord is to destroy the other nations. Katherine's quick thinking did NOT save the LA/LC.
Externally you have to play the long game.
Internally you can do whatever you believe is appropriate – in Victor’s case it would have been a mercy kill as soon as possible due to his incompetence in the political arena.
Quote:
It opened up the Lyrans to having to deal with the clans permanently.
And if written with a bit more realist flair this is still achievable – just look at the DC.
Quote:
Had the FC stayed on large happy family, they would have started removing the other clans from their territory.
And this is why Katherine would have had Victor killed off as early as possible – a mech accident sounds good.
With him dead as early as possible she get’s the throne of the FC one big happy (dysfunctional) family.
Quote:
The FWL would be a lot smaller and Sun Tzu would probably be dead from the attack on the FC.
Sun Tzu would either be within St Ives or six feet down.
The FWL can remain the size they are circa end of the 4th Succession War as Thomas would be in discussions with Hans for a mutually beneficial Marriage at this stage – an alliance with the FC via marriage is a far better place to be than where the DC are going to end up.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/13/21 09:17 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The range of say the ERPPC, along with the damage it does shows it is beyond SL tech. The fact that the only ER laser was the large, so the medium and small are not something from SL tech. Same can be said of the pulse lasers, and missile launchers are far beyond SL tech. The crit situation for both Endosteel and Ferrous Armor should they are beyond SL tech. The Ultra canons are yet another thing. IF it isn't retconned into the game, the only ultra version was the 5. Now this coming out in 3015 will send up flags to everyone that has anything to do with weapons. The heat sink situation might be a bit more believable to house Davion as they were working on their version with limited success.
Now the duh part. Having those weapons used in combat will show they are not SL, but something else. The ERPPC of the SL did a little over half a ton of armor damage, equal to the regular PPC. The clan version strips almost a full ton as well as hits at a longer range. That is not something that is easy to come up with. The range and more damage is seen with the other weapons as well.
This will show up even more when the Helm Core is decoded, once found.
For SL cache, the first question would be why the Dragoons didn't just raid them, and keep everything themselves. They are MERCs after all. This represents A huge ton of money and power. Full mechs and parts would mean more forces in the field, and some should have SL tech equipment. During the time they got into the IS, they did use ECM that was better then what was available, which is something that the developers did not explain, IE it worked better then the standard garbage the IS was using at the time.
As stated MOST factories would be lucky to have a lance guarding it. An invasion would have commanders scrambling to even figure out what is going on, while some important factories may get more defenders. It just depends on what is on world at that time. You got a planet to defend and only a company of units to do so, then no. You might well have the lance guarding the facility being redeployed elsewhere. Blackwell being a good example. The mechs guarding it are NOT part of the military, but actual security units. So NO units were send by planetary forces to guard it.
Why would you bother to sell the stock? It is useless, as the new management would want to create their own stocks and sell them. It makes them more money especially since the stocks can be held in other nations. This is the risk you run buying stock in companies. It is possible that someone might allow the company's old owners to continue to make money off it, but definitely would demand the product be sold to the new owners nations, or at least interest. That is IF they don't just strip it of the equipment. This does happen a lot to repair facilities.
It is against all the houses to have someone selling tech beyond what is available before they start to sell it. This tech will allow the enemy to gain advantages or remain on par with you. Your best interest is to prevent the enemy from getting it, which would include seizing the product, but barring that, destroying as much of it that you can find in enemy possession. This may well include resorting to more horrifying methods of destruction. The raid on Hoff is one such example. To stop the double sink research and production the DCMS sent in the Dragoons to hit the world.
Also intel agents WILL be questioning everyone that is involved in making and selling such equipment. You have shops forming all across the IS, there is no way this is a local person that got lucky. There is money backing it, which means more forceful methods are needed to find out how much and where this equipment is at. Look at what happens to SL caches when found.
Balance of power issues comes from this, and you DON'T want to be on the down side of it.
|
ghostrider
09/13/21 09:58 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The thought was the pirates found an SL cache, as has been explained before. You don't want to believe it, because it shuts down your argument about sending everything to what was thought to be a border skirmish.
The landing units can be dealt with by atmospheric aircraft and ground unit? So the allies just let Germany walk into Brittan and said the local coast guard can handle this, while they sent out their main forces to hit Germany itself? Did the U.S. let Japan land on the West coast saying the same thing?
Primary threat is to keep the enemy from slitting your throat. That means keeping them out of physical contact.
You love WWII references, well here is one of them. Only ocean between the U.S. and Japan. Why didn't the U.S. send their forces straight into Japan? Because they needed to take out a lot of the forces that would be used to defend it that weren't there at the time? They didn't have the proper resources to do so at the time? You do not seem to understand that the forces you want to be there, weren't. This is why the alt has no bearing on arguing what canon should have done. They did NOT have the resources you say they did.
Only clan Wolf was opposed to the invasion. That tells you just how many really thought the IS was going to be a problem invading it. They agreed to limiting the clans needed, as they would not need the forces. This tells you the complete story. They believed their own hype and godhood. They could do it with just 4 clans. Then 6. Then found out they couldn't do it at all. The only thing the truce did, was prevent more clans from joining the assault. The attack on Huntress could not wait until near the end of the truce, as ALL clans would be pumping out units to be ready for the day when they could strike again. The arrogance of the clan leaders did NOT believe the IS would find their home worlds. If they had listened to the reports and not ignored them because they came from freeborns, the entire clan war would have been different. No reading between the lines adding in false information. It is printed as such and remains fact.
When you have 2000 jumpships in the entire IS, how does taking them from one nation increase the over all amount in the IS? The fact that you will have some be destroyed, even without combat means less of them. So again. How does taking the CC jumpships increase the overall numbers of jumpships in the IS? It doesn't.
You can have the Death Star show up in the alt. You are saying canon had to do things they didn't have the resources to do. See the difference between canon and alt? Bringing in the Death Star means the alt can not follow canon afterwards. But then if you could see the difference, a few hundred posts would not have been necessary.
Where is it written in the rules that warships can just accurately bombard a location on a world? Sea battleships in real life are not the same thing as the battleships in the game.
You ask about how easy it is to know weither the clans will used the warships or not, yet have spent almost your entire time arguing that the IS should know every last detail of the clans before they showed up. You try to counter everything that happens by changing the past, making it appear that the IS had precognitive powers. They they ignore hundreds of years of fighting and change tactics to deal with a straight forward attack, which is counter to the last 100 plus years in the IS. And you still don't get the irony of this all.
The only forum threads I know of that dealt with atmospheric craft says they should be a lot more, as they are more efficient. I do not remember any that said aircraft outnumbers other types of vehicles in the canonverse.
You continue to interject the false numbers of the alt into the canon story and say that is what HAS to be done. Try researching what a planet has to defend with. Not Hesperus, as we know that is not typical. They are lucky to have a couple of infantry regiments and a battalion of vehicles. Maybe more then 6 aerofighters, though some don't have any. They do not have multiple RCTs guarding all the worlds. Even in the SL time, this was true.
Again, you ignore the rules of the game to try and make a point, which is why that point is false. The rear, IE the engine, must be facing the world in order to bombard a world. I am guess, this is because the warship must be within firing range, which means deeper into the gravity well then just orbiting. Since the game doesn't deal with heavy/light gravity wells, that aspect can not be discussed. Must like slowing down a ship, it needs to flip over. So just moving a weapon into position doesn't do it.
What happens to those forces when the enemy on the ground wipes everything out? That is more important then takng out a warship. You survive until enough forces arrive at once to take out the ship. The ship is not going to just bombard everything to hell and back. They want spoils. That means something has to be intact. Even pirates don't utterly destroy everything. They want you to surrender so they can take things without being damaged so badly, they fold due to CGLs.
Again, you skip the part where your fighters get sent out after the invading ground forces are dealt with. Then you have to deal with the ships and fighters that remain to guard the warship. If you do it well enough, the ships bringing in the ground forces die before they start to unload.
|
ghostrider
09/13/21 10:32 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Remember your statement of fortresses not surviving long against bombardments and WMDs. I know you will try and say this is how you survive by building a large central location and trying to fight the war from there only, avoiding guard units and having to scatter supplies across a world. You have done this before, and like to repeat yourself with things like this.
Well maybe you should argue with TPTB about the photo issue. It is very likely the FC did not send photos to Thomas as his son was sick, and those photos would have been heartbreaking to see. This along with any being leaked would cause more issues with the FWL, not that the FC wouldn't mind it. Also, the fact that Joshua was sick, could alter what he looked like. The FC did have the one time where the person doing the impersonation was seen, and they held the look-a-like contest. Then had a few more sightings.
For all your love of Katherine and her duplicity, you don't think of it outside of that. To end the program, just telling him Joshua died while undergoing another procedure would make it simple. The 'clone' would then just go back to their normal life, and never speak about it again. The time to move Joshua to Marik would explain why the body is frozen. Yes, it might be possible to determine how long it was frozen, but then again, maybe not.
What crime are you talking about? The fact that Joshua died, when he was well on his way before being sent to New Avalon? It isn't like they beat him to death. There was no crime in him dying. The timing of telling Thomas this might be morally bad, but it is not a crime either. Thomas would be upset, but there was not malice involved. Keeping his death a secret was not set up to cause Thomas pain, but to keep a deal going that would end up saving not only the FC, but the FWL as well if the clans broke thru. That is not a comfort to Thomas, but is fact.
How many of those people listed were on New Avalon during Joshua's treatment? None? OH yeah, wave the wand and out comes the magic.
The long game shortens quite a bit when you remove the power base from others. In the long game, having those Marik worlds and showing the people they have been lied to, that the LC/FC is not the boogie man a power mad dictator like the captain general wants them to believe. Isn't that what Katherine's 'super power' is?
A more realistic flair would be the clans took the IS seriously and came in with the forces to just wipe out the entire IS military. That would mean no artificial number caps, as well as building more warships and having the proper supplies with them. They could still bid on things, but it would NOT be so low, nor would they be limited like they were on garrison units. They would have struck the capital worlds with warships and blew the hell out of them. This would be done with all major military concentrations as well as taking out ALL jumpships, as they could make more. This would make sure ALL the IS had to rely on the clans to have anything move between systems. They would have also moved before they did. A good time would have been right after the 3039 war, or even the 4th war. They would have also seen Comstar as a pawn, then removed them as they took Terra. WOB would have been destroyed as well.
You miss the fact that Katherine needed Victor to do the removal of the clans. She could still arraign the accident, but have to do it when the last of the clans were out of FC space. Even frame the clans by having a few nukes go off, like the clans were retaliating from being kicked out.
Hanse was not alive when the FWL hit the FC due to Joshua's death. So not sure why you suggested what you did. Had Katherine supported Victor and made it look like she only did it to save the people of the FC, the FWL would be smaller. To expand the Terran Corridor as well as hit other worlds, would have seen to that. And as the statement said, Sun Tzu would probably be dead. I don't think he could have gone to the St. Ives Compact as his attack on the FC would require his removal. This would also extend to Kali as well.
|
Requiem
09/14/21 06:11 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The range of say the ERPPC, along with the damage it does shows it is beyond SL tech.
So?
Advancements in technology are made all the time, so who is to say when the engineering team was undertaking research and development to improve the base model that they didn’t introduce new technology – that improves upon the base model or even the star league model or the clan model.
It could be a single part or multiple small parts, it could be a new metallurgy technique and who is to say that these improvements were discovered for civilian uses first and then at a later date were applied to military products ….
Technology is not limited to just Star League – when working to improve why not improve beyond Star League ….
As stated above people are blind when it comes to technological development there is no end to technological development (star League) and then research again (Clan) – there is only just one long stream of constant improvements …
So again this is a plausible scenario that corroborates an advancement in technology …
These is no stopping point Star League or Clan there is only the improvement upon the base that produced irrefutable improvements …
And no one can say how the improvements were determined unless they were there when the information was provided … so again prove it first that it was supplied or other-wise everyone would assume that the improvements were obtained via research and development ….
Quote:
the first question would be why the Dragoons didn't just raid them, and keep everything themselves.
Who is to say they didn’t – they did have Snord’s so who’s to say they didn’t have multiple teams.
Quote:
As stated MOST factories would be lucky to have a lance guarding it.
Depending on who own’s it, what it is producing etc etc which would also determine its worth to the state and to the regional area – ie. food production.
Thus, it should not be that difficult to determine what they are attempting to raid … as most planets should have a list of all the most important sites and people and why they are important … and you can judge the enry vector to determine where the enemy is landing (as stated in novels that Justin taught his junior at the time how to do it before he became a spy)
Quote:
Why would you bother to sell the stock? It is useless, as the new management would want to create their own stocks and sell them.
And in so doing you have just ensured that no outside interests will ever invest in you State again – how many uber wealthy people out there invest in multiple houses and how many corporations have branches in multiple houses – do this and you are undermining the entire economic foundation within the Inner Sphere.
So again, do this and you will be zapped by a massive loss in investment income and possible export trade to foreign Houses over time – leading to a massive loss in GDP and an increase in Unemployment.
Also, this will pose problems for your spy network who like to use this as cover whist moving around the Inner Sphere …
This is just basic economics and spycraft ….
Quote:
It is against all the houses to have someone selling tech beyond what is available before they start to sell it.
Except for greedy people who are opportunists looking for a quick windfall or professional industrial thief’s and information brokers who are after a big windfall …
The unscrupulous and greedy …
And who is to say they aren’t selling it to multiple buyers at the same time to really cash in?
It is up to the Houses agencies to find and track down such individuals … how good they are at their jobs is again questionable ….
Also, powerful House companies could be purchasing this information – and you don’t want to interfere with a politically powerful person attempting to score information that will make her/him more politically powerful / wealthy than they are currently ….
Quote:
pirates found an SL cache
Was it found out in the periphery or internally? Cannot see many pirates venturing too deeply within - again it depends on what was found …
Quote:
The landing units can be dealt with by atmospheric aircraft and ground unit? So the allies just let Germany walk into Brittan and said the local coast guard can handle this, while they sent out their main forces to hit Germany itself? Did the U.S. let Japan land on the West coast saying the same thing?
And the point is? What does this relate to?
Quote:
Why didn't the U.S. send their forces straight into Japan?
The underlying thinking was …
Island hopping allowed the US and allied forces to push the Japanese forces back to Japan – in order to reach Japan more quickly by cutting off their resupply. Thus though the creation of air bases, the allies would gradually gain control of the pacific and ware down the Japanese to a point that they would surrender due to a lack of logistical supplies.
If they has gone for an all out attack on the Japanese mainland asap via Operation Downfall, without depleting their logistics the planned operation would loose far more men and material than if they had by first strangling their logistical supplies …
ie. island hopping, reducing logistical supplies save lives in the long run than that of just attacking the mainland from day one and hoping that the Japanese Navy would not be in a position to transfer men and material into Japan, from their captured colonies, in order to prolong the war that was being fought within Japan and in all reality would have suffered unimaginable casualties as every person in Japan would have been told to kill and die for the Empire and the Emperor …
Quote:
They did NOT have the resources you say they did.
And as state many times there is no quantifiable method of proving this – neither I nor you can do so as the underlying figures have never been supplied - so other than making a statement to the effect by me or you … it is all just semantics
It is easier to just go with the flow as to who is writing the story when it comes to issues such as this as no amount of argument will ever shift the other persons interpretation of events based upon brief statements at certain points in time that really have no bearing on future production or numbers.
Quote:
Only clan Wolf was opposed to the invasion … This tells you the complete story
Yes, I agree with you, their intelligence operations was useless – there was no real no objectivity and was basing their intelligence more upon personal biases than facts …. ie. the US intelligence agency within Vietnam comes to mind here …
Quote:
The only thing the truce did, was prevent more clans from joining the assault.
And this is why a second invasion would have been a much more preferable story than that of the diatribe found in the Jihad era …
And this is why a more objective leader is required as il-khan to lead the second invasion – one who can recognise the errors of the past to ensure they do happen again.
Quote:
When you have 2000 jumpships in the entire IS, how does taking them from one nation increase the over all amount in the IS?
Sorry but you cannot prove this figure it is only a personal supposition ….
And as stated before taking the CC jump-ships assists the FC with their military capabilities …
Quote:
You can have the Death Star show up in the alt.
Sorry this is not the best weapon available …
Gall Force system killer is the one to get.
And problem is there is no way for anyone to prove that what I am suggesting cannot be done as there is absolutely no quantifiable way of proving it …
Quote:
Where is it written in the rules that warships can just accurately bombard a location on a world?
Wow what an embarrassment it must have been for the Smoke Kitties at Turtle Bay if they missed ….
And yes there is a difference blue water navy have to factor in the rise and fall of the waves … where as black sea navy just need to align the optics put the cross hair over the target and pull the trigger the laser then just goes in a straight line …
As how often was an orbital bombardment used in the Reunification War, Amaris War, Succession Wars etc ….
I think they know what they are doing after such extensive training in real combat …
Quote:
I do not remember any that said aircraft outnumbers other types of vehicles in the canonverse.
Thread – Air-Force 3025 on-wards …. Which started with
Aerospace Fighters are “considered” to be in limited supply, however, under sarna.wiki they (Conventional Fighters) are described as “Though weak compared to aerospace fighters and unable to fly in the vacuum of space, conventional fighters are considerably cheaper to build and require a much lower base technology level to manufacture. This means that most worlds, especially backwater planets, field at least a small conventional fighter force.”
Thus with this one statement every RCT has the possibility of having a conventional fighter force that is lost within the RCTs original TO&Es.
Quote:
So just moving a weapon into position doesn't do it.
And this is why you put a massive Turret on the ship just like the blue sea navy – having to move the entire ship into alignment just to fire the main gun was shown to be an idiocy move during WW2 – why perpetuate this?
Quote:
What happens to those forces when the enemy on the ground wipes everything out? That is more important then taking out a warship.
Taking out a warship is far more important than a lost RCT as a warship has the potential to inflict far more damage than a single RCT could ever hope to …
It is far more important for the RCT to kill the Warship at this point in time …
Quote:
If you do it well enough, the ships bringing in the ground forces die before they start to unload.
What is the early warning time you have and have you received a message that a warship is on the way …
All comes down to reliable intelligence as to what can be done when …
Quote:
Remember your statement of fortresses not surviving long against bombardments and WMDs.
Doesn’t this depend on how and where the fortress is constructed?
Still when repeatedly bombarded by a naval energy weapon how long do you really expect to survive?
The fortress is there in the hope that it will keep you alive until help can arrive …
Quote:
It is very likely the FC did not send photos to Thomas as his son was sick
Really? You do realise this would have been standard as the local Embassy would have a person there to keep the Ambassador informed … also letters in the far future would be video and audio messages … as they are being sent regularly by HPG.
Quote:
To end the program, just telling him Joshua died while undergoing another procedure would make it simple.
Problem is they would want the body back and a simple autopsy would confirm that he has been dead for how long and Victor as being duplicitous about the whole issue … thus his credibility once more (in getting the vote to be First Lord) has now gone down the tube, permanently … thus putting the entire new Star League in jeopardy of disbandment due to this stupid stunt.
Quote:
Thomas would be upset, but there was not malice involved.
Go on tell a grieving father there was no malice involved … 1 second later …. WAR
Quote:
How many of those people listed were on New Avalon during Joshua's treatment?
This is where you have a very poor story once more … at the minimum, his nanny, butler a couple of maids, personal tutor, chef, FWL medical officer, guards … at the minimum. Then from the local Embassy … a couple more ….
Quote:
Isn't that what Katherine's 'super power' is?
Adoration and trust of the people …
Quote:
A more realistic flair would be the clans took the IS seriously and came in with the forces to just wipe out the entire IS military.
This could be the second invasion ….
As for the rest this is your story go with it and see where it leads … if this is what you want for your game go for it …
Quote:
You miss the fact that Katherine needed Victor to do the removal of the clans.
No, she really didn’t need Victor at all.
Morgan Hasek-Davion
Hohiro Kurita and Theodore Kurita
Morgan Kell
And there are also others
Quote:
Thomas would be in discussions with Hans for a mutually beneficial Marriage at this stage
Wrong time line this is post 4th Succession War the CC have fallen and the FWL believe they may be next – so this discussion is not in the far future – any issue regarding a marriage at this stage would put Victor at about 1 year old, so the problem is?
Quote:
I don't think he could have gone to the St. Ives Compact as his attack on the FC would require his removal. This would also extend to Kali as well.
As stated in my alt universe re this setting – they would be sent to their Aunt during the final battle for the Capitol – their father would give them to Justin Allard during the battle and they would be whisked away to the safety of their Aunt Candace for safety.
So yes they can be alive it is just a question as when you schedule the final battle for the CC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/14/21 12:50 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The tech jump is what is the issue. It would be like saying the crossbow is the strongest range weapon available, but now someone has come up with the 75mm Howitzer, and there is nothing in between. No progression was so ever.
Then why would the Dragoons tell anyone about the cache? That alone would draw suspicion. They are a merc unit. They would not direct others to any cache, but take it all and sell what they didn't want or need. So the logic isn't there.
What happened with Snord and the Dragoons? They picked a cache and called it home. This is following logic.
Vectors have been changed while ships are moving, to throw off the defenders. It is part of the deception they use. With your ships looking to head to say Australia but once the get closer, they divert to say Africa, you have a limited time to move your forces. Given a fast speed of 120 KPH, that is only like 80 miles an hour. The enemy should have an advanced force of Aerofighter, if they have them, hitting something in or near their original vector, keeping you focused there. A few hours in orbit shifting the landing position and you still can't get forces to the real target. Even trying to airlift them won't get you there fast enough.
The IS has been dealing with changing of hands for factories and such. Investors will be from your nation when you take the facilities. Most foreign investors will pick things that are not on the border. Might need to read where the new owners are named, and how the factory is changed.
It only matters that someone OTHER then you are getting the tech. That is why you drop on the factories and seize everything in there. If you can't hold the manufacturing plant, you take all you can and destroy the rest. And this is IF you can beat Comstar to the punch. The WILL try the pirate concept a few times. Maybe even blame the houses for it, like the NAIS raid in the 4th war. Clantech is beyond the tech they have in their units at the end of the 4th war. They WILL know it is beyond SL tech, even if no one else figures it out.
The thought was the pirates found an SL cache, as has been explained before.
Was it found out in the periphery or internally? Cannot see many pirates venturing too deeply within - again it depends on what was found …
First sentence was restated on why the IS didn't react with huge forces to the clans first entering the IS proper. The second is ignoring the entire context, and asking something that has nothing to do with the statement. Read and understand what is being said, not what you want it to say.
And pirates do travel that far into the periphery. It is why some bases are that far out.
The point of saying letting enemy troops just walk into areas without trying to stop them before they get there is stupid. You claim that it is best to let the atmospheric and ground forces try to stop someone that is landing on the world, instead of trying to make sure they don't even get the chance. That is opposite of what needs to be done. But the looking glass says otherwise, as the alt means nothing to canon.
Wouldn't more lives be saved had they just hit Japan and taken it out? The war would be over then. This is the VERY sort of thinking you put forth by going straight after Terra when Amaris held it. Hitting Japan instead of taking years to clear out the forces on other islands should have ended the war faster, and with less allied casualties. That is the concept. I believe it is wrong, as taking out the islands may well have caused the Emperor to consider the fact that they were going to lose and start trying to salvage something from it. Pretty much surrender or Japan would be a crater.
You do not have the numbers to support the constant canon is wrong as they should have done this or that. The game did their storyline based on what they had and want the IS to have. You did not get those numbers, so you say they are wrong. That alt can have what ever they want. This does NOT change the canon story line. They used what they had.
It was proven the canon book Jumpships and Dropships stated the 2000 number for the time frame it came out. There is no supposition to this. I believe that number is far lower then it should be. But again. Taking the CC ships and facilties does NOT increase the overall jumpships in the IS at that time. It may increase those the FS/FC owned, but not over all numbers.
This is a little off topic, but the Death Star is more prefferable to the system wave. The system wave destroys the entire system. Removing an entire world is bad enough, but at least you have what every resources are still available on other worlds, moons and asteroids.
The story line by the creators says there was not an abundance of ships in the story. That is proven. The game does not have warships running around in even 3039. Except for the Comstar stash, this is proven.
Have you actually read what it takes to hit anything in space? The base numbers are HIGHER then ground. Without any modifiers, short range is 6 not 4. Extreme range to hits is 12. And the story does not say every shot hit the target they were fired at. It does not say they missed either. Bombardment is much like artillery. Area of effect is more likely to damage things then a straight on shot. Which is very true with a bombardment as they can not target anything smaller then a dropships for almost, and I say almost, all weapons. Two missiles can hit fighters.
Your response with the Aircraft does NOT say they outnumber other ground units. It says they are used in most units. Most Vtols die quickly when hit. Some fixed wing craft survive a few hits. They can do some real damage, but nothing like an Aerofighter does. And they aren't likely to take down a dropship.
I am assuming there are more jeeps in an army then aircraft in Battletech.
The fact that you are lacking information is why this continues. Though I forget the prime statement of ignorance is only when you don't know better. Once you do, it moves into a new category. Your conclusions are based on inaccurate to downright false concepts.
Ground forces destroying an RCT or a warship that may not even fire. Hmmm. The fact you can scatter the ground forces, allowing some to survive, while ground forces destroy it all, as well as securing the world doesn't figure into this? Might I suggest actually joining the military before suggesting ignoring the defense of your base.
The game said the defenders did NOT know the attackers were there until they were in orbit. So that negates planning stages while the warships was inbound.
They knew dropships were being sent down with ground forces. Scramble orders would be take out the dropships. Once they are dealt with, you then move onto the next question. Making sure the enemy that did not die will NOT kill you and your base, or risk losing more by sending out the fighters after they refuel and rearm, to hit what is in orbit. Defense is going to win, unless you have shown a major advantage over the enemy forces that did live.
Launch the fighters and see what defends the warship. Suicide is not something that will go over well, so you have to reduce the enemy defenses. It is highly unlikely you will reach the warship at this point, but luck and numbers might be on your side. Only after the ground forces are taken care of and the defenders are taken out, would you have your shot against the warship.
Then there is your logic hole. A worker at the embassy should have detected the problem before it even got to the point of the double being needed. Not sure if they would be allowed to even visit Joshua.
Not going to admit the fact that deceit and conning people is what Katherine was good at? The constant lies is what made her appealing to people as well as looks. If she wasn't so good at lying, they would not have been enthralled by her.
Could be, and canon being wrong is the issue. But the statement was about being realistic. If it was, the IS would not exist the way it did after the truce war. There would not have been a truce fight.
I don't think Candace and Justin would allow Sun Tzu to be put on St. Ives. They would demand he be tried and dealt with elsewhere. They do NOT want the troubles that would come with just putting him in jail in the Compact. There will always be someone trying to free him. Let the FC execute him, and be done with it.
|
Requiem
09/14/21 06:37 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The tech jump is what is the issue.
Again No, I do not believe it would be.
Compare - 4th Generation Aircraft - SU-27 - SU-57 - F-16 Fighting Falcon - Eurofightier Typhoon and 5th Generation Aircraft - SU-75 Checkmate – stealth fighter - F-35 Lightning II – stealth fighter
This is what I believe is occurring here in the Battletech universe with regards to technological development.
As for the No progression what so ever … yes we do have progression eg Larger Laser progresses from the older model to Star League to Clan ….
Who is to say that whilst in Research and Development the team were not able to take this base model and progress through the older Star League and into the Clan variant?
As an observer from the sidelines are we just seeing just a quantum leap in technology as from the 4th to 5th Generation Fighters when it comes to mechs from the older models through the Star League and into the omni universe?
I still believe we are – there is progression and there is a natural development that can be seen throughout the inner sphere at the time (thanks to Dragoons seeding technology throughout the Inner Sphere) that many companies have been able to produce quantum break throughs through Star League and into a bright new future. As such the normal person, again, would just take it on faith that this is the norm – that finally the entirety of the Inner Sphere is undergoing a technological Renaissance …
The only group who could have any objectivity are a very few in ComStar who actually understand Star League Technology and who have the ability to make comparisons and even then it is very difficult to prove …
So again, until someone actually has the ability to directly tie the Dragoons to the technological Renaissance, it would be taken on faith that this is what is occurring throughout the Inner Sphere.
Quote:
Then why would the Dragoons tell anyone about the cache?
They would only do so if it advanced their cause to prepare the Inner Sphere for the coming of the Clans …
It would be more believable, however, if they used a proxy as to the Cache – Shord for example is renowned for excavating ruins for their museum … so not a problem.
And I agree their hidden Cashes (that they call home) does not follow the logic of preparing the Inner Sphere for the Clan War to come – what we see here is writing prior to Clans even being considered. Once they were it was like they decided to go from 3039 to 3050 with no explanation in between – a discontinuity in time and technology occurred, that in all reality should have been a technological Renaissance era so as to prepare the Inner Sphere correctly for the Clans …
As we all know what occurred when the Clans arrived – a game that really required more beta testing than it did as it caused a massive game imbalance … beyond anything it should have …
Quote:
Vectors have been changed
Problem is this vector stops in orbit around one world and how hard is it to slingshot your fighter from one side of the planet around to the other if required ….
And even then this is doubtful as if the warship is also being used as a transport wouldn’t it be driving on an orbit above the target so as to provide their dropships the most efficient and effective path to their target landing zone?
Thus, as far as the Inner Sphere Fighters are concerned it is not really that difficult to locate and attack the warship.
Quote:
The IS has been dealing with changing of hands for factories and such. Investors will be from your nation when you take the facilities. Most foreign investors will pick things that are not on the border.
Again in so doing you have just destroyed your economy as no foreign investment – export trade over any border would also now be non-existent!
In the interest of maintaining the Inner Spheres economy as a whole there must be rules of business – just as there are rules for war – and the main one would be that investment shares numbers and people cannot be modified at all when the planet changes owner from one house to the other … who receives their products and to whom tax is paid can be changed but everything else cannot be amended. That is unless financial anarchy is your aim.
Quote:
why the IS didn't react with huge forces to the clans first entering the IS proper.
Do you remember when the Clans arrived and Focht and Waterly were watching a gun camera footage of a Timberwolf – she suggested that the weapons package should be placed on their Mechs and Focht retorted that to do so would require stripping the Mech of all of its armour to do so – thus it was clear these “pirates” were in control of far more advanced tech than even they had ….
Thus it is quite clear that in this occasion the phrase One you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth (Arthur Conan Doyle) would provide the answer …
Also consider the size and scope of the invasion …
So again this really is not that difficult to consider other possibilities to the 30 seconds that it took to dismiss the idea that this was a pirate raid …
Quote:
That is opposite of what needs to be done.
No this is the very definition of what must be done – going through the looking glass ie. the opposite of what is normal or expected is what is required here.
The Warship is their command-and-control facility – it can also be utilised as an observation platform and it has weapon systems that rival any WMD of the day – this by definition alone makes it the Primary Target.
Quote:
Wouldn't more lives be saved had they just hit Japan and taken it out?
US Combat Casualties Pacific WW2 – 62,858
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties
“it suggested that Army losses alone in those categories, excluding the Navy and Marine Corps, would be approximately 863,000 through the first part of 1947, of whom 267,000 would be killed or missing.”
Thus the complete reverse.
Quote:
This is the VERY sort of thinking you put forth by going straight after Terra when Amaris held it
Two very different situations
Consider the size of the each Navy and Army at the start of the conflict –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_War
to that of the size of the SLDF at the start of the conflict
15,000 Regiments SLDF and 5,000 + Warships Vs. approx. 200 Regiments and 700 warships.
The imbalance in forces with the SLDF vs Amaris allows for a blitzkrieg - the absence of such an imbalance in the Pacific would mean a bloodbath.
Quote:
The game did their storyline based on what they had and want the IS to have. You did not get those numbers, so you say they are wrong.
There are no numbers, only some remarks, which after 30 years become irrelevant.
Quote:
It was proven the canon book Jumpships and Dropships stated the 2000 number for the time frame it came out.
As stated many times – Book and Page Number
Quote:
the Death Star is more preferable to the system wave.
This is the point as fear is what will keep the local systems in line … this is the ultimate weapon in the universe … lets use it ….
Quote:
The story line by the creators says there was not an abundance of ships in the story.
Please define what abundance means in a quantifiable figure – 2,000, - 5,000 – 10,000
Also when you are initiating a technological Renaissance what does this do this figure when there are no real rules regarding the progression of technology during such an age.
Thus it is up to the writer to make their own judgement.
Quote:
Have you actually read what it takes to hit anything in space?
Then can I have a re-roll on Turtle Bay.
Quote:
Your response with the Aircraft does NOT say they outnumber other ground units. It says they are used in most units.
Then how many squadrons per RCT? – thus how many gravity bombs on a clan LZ.
Quote:
a warship that may not even fire
It is a threat by its very presence!
Quote:
So that negates planning stages while the warships was inbound.
When was the Warship detected and how quick on the uptake is their Commander and Air-Boss
This is the determining factor in making the decision Dropships vs Warship as primary target.
Quote:
Suicide is not something that will go over well
And yet when ordered they will go …
Quote:
A worker at the embassy should have detected the problem before it even got to the point of the double being needed.
Correct they should have – but this is what the writers wanted – dispel all logic and move forward.
Quote:
Not going to admit the fact that deceit and conning people is what Katherine was good at?
Her superpower as seen by the people who adored her.
Only those who crossed her in private saw the other side.
Quote:
the IS would not exist the way it did after the truce war
Plot development ??????
Quote:
I don't think Candace and Justin would allow Sun Tzu to be put on St. Ives. They would demand he be tried and dealt with elsewhere
OK so you want to put these children through a trial and lock them up two when they are both below 5 years of age.
A little extreme – Richard III – Princes in the Tower vibe but if you are happy with this ….
Just though being their Aunt she might want to raise her sister’s children in a loving environment rather than the other alternative …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/14/21 07:51 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The jump in tech isn't going from 4th to 5th gen tech, but going from 1st to 6th in the early 3000's. The Helm Core will show this as well. The statement was along the lines of the Dragoons making clantech w equipment. The jump is too great to be odd research. It MIGHT be believable if SL equipment was around, and they had put out something that was better, but not by that much. Such as the ERPPC reaching another 30 meters, or doing a little more damage IE instead of 10 points doing 11 or maybe 12. 15 is too far out.
Which makes me bring up the question again, why the IS didn't make the reduced weight and crit normal weapons?
The case of using the hidden bases is something that they dropped the ball on. I can see taking and refitting them, but nothing was done in canon with them. Probably a retcon will come out to deal with it, which means more garbage screwing up the game.
Vectors are used more then just figuring what world they are after. They can figure out general location on those worlds. Granted, this is not true when they leave the jump point, but as they get closer to the world.
Comstar checking gun footage. IS not getting gun footage. See the difference? Phelan figured that out before Comstar did. He sent word for the others in the Kell hounds on the world to take that and get out. Somehow, that did not happen. Also a lot of the footage that did get back were deleted or screwed up. Plot armor probably.
Until the warship does something like fire weapons, there is more belief in it being just a shell that was found and made space worthy, then a fully functional warship. Except Comstar, no one has seen a fully functional warship since the 2nd war. The dropships look more like functional war machines, and once the mechs come out, they were even more functional war machines. The elementals would be a shock.
So taking out defenders before hitting the main target is not viable? The conflict of going straight in, verses taking out forces from the sides is the issue.
Again. Page 15, top right portion of the paragraph. The remaining vessels number about 2,000, an amount that has remained fairly constant for decades. This has been posted before.
Funny, that dropships are estimated to be about 25,000. This can not be close to accurate, as dropships are used for more then just hauling.
Making up numbers then saying canon is wrong is the problem. Your numbers don't matter when saying canon is wrong and needs to be rewritten. I really wonder why you don't get this. For the alt, you can have someone wave a wand and create 10 billion ships. For canon, this does not work.
Reroll all you want. They can fire another shot. And another. And another until they do what they wanted to. Why do you think they got all their forces out before firing?
|
Karagin
09/14/21 08:03 PM
70.118.172.64
|
Ghostrider: He keeps trying to make his version canon because it makes sense to him, he has expressed his dislike of canon and keeps trying to bring things around to canon. We keep going in circles with him, and it's the same arguments and counters each time.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
09/15/21 06:41 AM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The jump is too great to be odd research.
In hundreds of research facilities – Universities – Corporations scattered throughout the Inner Sphere. This is a complete proliferation of advanced technology technology, that in turn can only be described as a technological renaissance …
All throughout the Inner Sphere corporations have been seeded with advanced technology, first in civilian areas no one would take notice of though slowly and most deviously this proliferation is spreading to the military sector …
Over a short period of time the complete Inner Sphere has jumped from current to Clan technology in all areas …
As everyone is making Clan Tech at the same time this cannot be “Suspicious”
No one is blinking an eye as everyone considers this advancement in technology be nothing more than normal.
As for Comstar … they would be exasperated in trying to determine a common link to the proliferation of advanced technology ….
As for the Dragoons and their agents – how easy it is to be a tree within the forest.
And this is why it is just accepted as is … no one, except for comstar, could even realise that there has been a major shift in technological advancement.
Quote:
Such as the ERPPC reaching another 30 meters, or doing a little more damage IE instead of 10 points doing 11 or maybe 12. 15 is too far out.
How is this obeying your orders to prepare the IS? This is just putting a band-aid over a wound where major surgery should have been considered.
The only way to prepare is technological equality.
Quote:
Comstar checking gun footage. IS not getting gun footage.
Problem is that the IS did get the footage – or are how is ComStar going to explain when survivors get out that they sent the images and have the receipt and yet their superiors still have yet to received the footage …
One person gets out who knows the information was sent and the IS have yet to receive it … good luck in trying to explain that away.
All Inner Sphere Houses will know that Comstar is playing games again ….
But this really shouldn’t be a surprise considering all the shadow wars that have occurred between the Houses and Comstar …
Thus more Black Boxes ….
Quote:
Phelan figured that out before Comstar did. He sent word for the others in the Kell hounds on the world to take that and get out.
Where does this come from?
Quote:
Until the warship does something like fire weapons, there is more belief in it being just a shell that was found and made space worthy, then a fully functional warship.
Can you take the risk?
Quote:
So taking out defenders before hitting the main target is not viable? The conflict of going straight in, verses taking out forces from the sides is the issue.
Depends on what is feasible, achievable and practical at the time … what are you trying to achieve? And in what time frame are you trying to achieve it in? And do you have the forces to achieve it?
Quote:
Again. Page 15, top right portion of the paragraph. The remaining vessels number about 2,000, an amount that has remained fairly constant for decades. This has been posted before.
Book name?
Quote:
Making up numbers then saying canon is wrong is the problem.
Why am I writhing these Alt universe settings …..? This has been stated many times.
Quote:
Why do you think they got all their forces out before firing?
Hopefully they were far enough away and did not become collateral damage from a friendly fire mistake due to a bad roll.
Quote:
Ghostrider: He keeps trying to make his version canon because it makes sense to him, he has expressed his dislike of canon and keeps trying to bring things around to canon. We keep going in circles with him, and it's the same arguments and counters each time.
Karagin: I have made this clear many times – my Alt universe is NOT there to replace canon!
My Alt universe is for those who wish to consider an alternate setting for their game – it is a means of providing that alternate basis for their setting.
For those who wish to remain with the cannon script … good luck to you.
For those who would like to consider an alternate setting …
Such as
Deep periphery raids against Clan Logistic fleets or attempting to find clan bases in the deep periphery …
Become a renegade Clan Unit made up of free borns who have defected to the Inner Sphere …
Treasure hunting similar to that of Snord’s Irregulars
Or considering different means of defeating the Clans as they continue to wage war within the Inner Sphere
And many other settings that have been provided to help make the game a little more fun, realistic and enjoyable …
Thus providing back stories that can be considered believable so as to understand the new universe for your game setting
So again please note this is for those who want some thing different to the cannon setting.
For those who wish to remain with canon … that is your choice.
As we all have the choice to fight for who we want to fight for – be in the setting we want to be with – and have those around us that we want in our game – and to have the story that we want to be in … be it canon, mine or your own we all have choices!
Just have fun.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/15/21 06:42 AM)
|
ghostrider
09/15/21 10:50 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The time frame is 3005 to 3015. WHERE is ANY IS factories putting out clan tech? How about SL tech? All of the sudden a Merc unit starts producing equipment beyond what the SL could. You think this is not suspicious?
With preparing the IS for the clans, putting out something that is the first step towards better things then SL tech, you would put out some steps in order to make it look like research is being done, verses the finished product. With this, the houses could take that tech and research it into better tech. Anyone with some real sense of logic and flow would have seen and understood these simple principles.
Why don't you actually read the books. When Phelan gets captured, as he is fighting Vlad's Timberwolf, he comes up with this when he dodges all of Vlad's shots and tags him with the Wolfhounds weapons and finds out he does NOT take out the CT armor. This shows you have not read as much as you want others to believe.
Do you have a choice in taking the risk when you DON'T have the aerofighters to even attempt to attack the warship? In every battle, there are risks you have to take. As the planets did not have a regiment of fighters on them, wasting them on the attempt is stupid. But then anyone that knows anything about strategy and tactics knows this.
Gee. We are talking about facts about jumpships and have stated in the past what book that fact was in. I guess it must have been TRO 3050, since that is beyond the time we are talking. Use that great comprehension or even reread the past posts that have it in there. So far, the great comprehension skill seems to be just throwing crap in and saying it is the way things are.
You still don't get it. You are saying canon, the developers story line, is wrong, and using your alt figures to try and prove it. Then trying to defend that action by saying the developers didn't give you the numbers that they did use, so your fake numbers are the new canon. Try something new, like stop using the alt to say canon rewrite is needed because your numbers say so. Your numbers are completely wrong in canon.
Again. Most people I know, don't worry about how logical canon is. The play the game. The things they do and come up with, are not canon, but then they do not insist that it become canon. Get the picture. They know canon as that is the basis if you want to play with another group. They do not say that since the took out WOB, that means canon needs to place them in charge of Terra, and remove WOB from the game. For the Jihad, most that I have seen remove that from their game. They do not scream since they did so, it has to be done in canon.
Present the alt without referencing and saying canon is wrong because of your story saying so.
Everyone knows canon has faults. More show up with each retcon. They need to do something as the 'history' was changed too much.
Enough of the crap.
|
Requiem
09/15/21 05:40 PM
1.158.137.81
|
Quote:
The time frame is 3005 to 3015.
The Final supply run was 3019-3020 – so planning beings now ….implementation, however, will take time.
Quote:
Anyone with some real sense of logic and flow would have seen and understood these simple principles.
Assumptions.
First you lay the foundations for transforming as this is achievable during 4th Succession War 3028-30 as well as with the introduction of the Helm Memory Core 3028 – Rosetta Stone for advanced tech.
With the unlocking of the Memory Core you now have plausible deniability to begin increasing technology at a greater rate than it should have if the Dragoons and their allies did not begin in disseminating technology theory and products into the consumer market, in order to obtain the base technology required when it comes time to increasing military technology.
Thus by the late 30’s advanced military technology begins to resurface … and by mid 40’s you begin to see Clan level technology being constructed …
Also during this period advancements allow for the increased production in ship-yards, slipways and an increase in Jump-ship production throughout the Inner Sphere - and what should have occurred, a return of Inner Sphere Warships to the game.
Thus by the time the clans do enter the fray – Inner Sphere have their first generation Omni Mech and Aerospace Fighter programs well and truly established with production numbers being manufactured in quantity, together with Clan tech. Elite units are about 75% updated with this tech, whist regular forces are at about 25% - 50% updated.
Also, Black Box technology is far further than can would have you believe – as the FC and DC are using these devices with their ground and Naval forces.
Unfortunately, this is as about as far as the Dragoons could reach, they had run out of time.
Quote:
This shows you have not read as much as you want others to believe.
This shows I do not remember this from when it was written …
Quote:
Do you have a choice in taking the risk when you DON'T have the aerofighters to even attempt to attack the warship?
And yet in this scenario you do have the aerospace fighters available – as stated in the Regimental Combat Team TO&E
AFFS-RCT https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inner_Sphere_Military_Structure#Regimental_Combat_Team
Regiment BattleMechs
Three Regiments Combat Vehicles
Five Regiments Infantry – including Special Forces Units – mechanized
Two Aerospace Wings
Battalion of Artillery
Battalion of Combat Engineers
Proving, therefore, a total of 40 aerospace fighters per RCT.
Continuity of information problem as one source material site states one thing and in others it states another …
Quote:
But then anyone that knows anything about strategy and tactics knows this.
Canon forgets that with the arrival of the Clans warfare shifts from Symmetric Warfare to Asymmetric Warfare.
The Clans vastly superior technology must be taken into account with regards to any strategy used.
The Warship MUST be considered a First primary Target due to a number of reasons
Command-and-Control
Reconnaissance Capabilities
Holding the high ground with the biggest WMD Guns / Missiles on the battlefield
Psychological effect its removal would have upon your forces and the enemy combatants – combat morale!
Can you imagine what it would be like to fight a battle knowing the enemy has a warship above you that can unleash Armageddon? Your own forces will not be fighting at their best whist this ship remains in orbit! Your forces Combat Morale will be lowered whist that ship is in orbit!
With its destruction this negative psychological effect will hopefully be then placed upon the enemy – with the destruction of their C-and-C – they will loose morale.
Also YOU DO NOT KNOW if they will use their main armament during the battle – can you take the risk? As in all wars previously (Historicly) from The Age of War, SLDF Reunification War, Amaris-Keresnky and Succession all commanders have used this tactic to win – so again can you really take the risk – do nothing.
Consider Major General John P. Lucas – Anzio – you need to capitalize and strike, otherwise the enemy commander can consolidate their position – with artillery positions that have a clear view of every Inner Sphere position (via orbital bombardment). By the way he was sent home for this …
So as RCTs have 40 fighters it is an even bet that your forces can get one nuke through and kill the ship (as the game rules regarding nukes must be thrown away as being completely useless) – That is unless a naval engagement can settle this …
As stated many times – give me the weapons to take on a warship or I will be forced to use nukes.
Quote:
I guess it must have been TRO 3050
Thus can we assume it is a guess as to the number?
Quote:
You still don't get it. You are saying canon, the developers story line, is wrong, and using your alt figures to try and prove it.
Heresy! Blasphemy! …. I do not think it should be Blasphemy just for contradicting TPTB … even if they did say ….. and here I should put in the Life of Brian stoning scene to demonstrate how ludicrous it is to be forced into a situation whereby no dissent is allowed – it is the belief that that this can never change, it must never change, and will never be allowed to change … even if it can be proven!
Isn’t taking this “Your numbers are completely wrong in canon.” And forcing others to adopt another’s point of view taking this a little too far? There are no numbers – thus isn’t their massive scope open for interpretation.
Quote:
but then they do not insist that it become canon
Even if they do keep asserting that they are not attempting to replace canon …
Quote:
everyone knows canon has faults. More show up with each retcon.
And yet I am not allowed to create my own version of events for my game (which is not superseding canon – it is just an alternative for those who wish to consider such an alternative) as that may offend the word of canon and all those who wish to main it?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
09/15/21 07:33 PM
45.51.181.83
|
If you weren't so tied up in your ego stroking, you would have read that the time frame for releasing tech was in 3005 or so. But as you seem unable to read what is typed and just add in what ever the hell you want, you continually put up false facts or try to twist it to meet your desires. I am calling you out on this.
Now. Even if they waited until 3020 to start, the fact that releasing clan tech is still beyond what the SL did, and that fact that SL tech was STILL not available to any but Comstar. So it will raise questions and strikes to gain, and prevent others from getting it.
Gee. I stated the small jumps in releasing the tech, and it was bad, yet now you decide to try and claim that was the goal in the first place. You stated to release clan tech from the start, and it was before the Helm Core was decoded. Get your statements right.
You remember all sorts of things, yet they all seem to be warped in some way or another. When confronted with the facts, you scream alt. When this is called out you scream it has nothing to do with canon by presenting the alt. Then it magically becomes the alt is the only way forward, so canon has to be rewritten. This has been the constant fact in the alt threads.
You still don't know what you are talking about, and it shows. Two Wings IS NOT an Aerofighter regiment. It is more like 2 battalions. And what scenario are you trying to say is standard for the game? As stated, most worlds do NOT have a regiment of fighters guarding them. They are lucky to have the equivalent of an air company. Which is 6 fighters. So out of 12 attacks from the Falcons only 1 was supposed to have the 2 wings. The rest far less. And your demand is they send them all after a warship. Don't worry about the forces coming in, as normal IS forces that size would take out the defenders rather easily.
And this does not account for the other enemy units in the skies with the warships. Join the military. They will set you right on what is a priority in a fight. Or maybe the rejected you as you don't seem to understand that thought.
Canon forgot that their story was wrong? That they way they wanted to present their story was wrong, as it did not follow your view?
The fact that the clans were more systematic then an IS foe, or pirate ever was is fact. The IS knows guerilla warfare. The ONLY difference in the clan fight is the tech being able to detect them as well as Comstar providing ground intel on the defenders. When Comstar didn't know what was there, the IS did far better. Hmmm. Intel on the enemy being used to good effect have influence on the outcome of a fight. Knowing they way they would retreat and blocking it would have no effect? Just the sheer shock of not facing an enemy running to cover, but standing in the distance hitting your forces at ranges that were beyond anything you seen means nothing? But again. You don't understand the game story, and read in all this crap that isn't there. The response seems to be the IS should have left their emplacements and ran straight into the oncoming forces, and died quicker. But then they should have had multiple RCTs landing the instant the enemy hit the world, because the books tell you everything you need to know, and precognition is every leaders powers.
Where is your spreadsheet when discussing topics that were already discussed? Taking jumpships and dropships might mean the actual book of that name. Now I may have confused you, as the title of the book is actual dropships and Jumpships. But anyone with any real comprehension skills would have known that. It was stated in other posts about the same damned thing. But the only other book that dealt with those ships is 3057. The lack of knowing this means you didn't even bother to look up the information.
This statement is at the very heart of what you are doing with using alt to say canon is wrong and needs to do things the way you present it.
And forcing others to adopt another’s point of view taking this a little too far?
As you did NOTHING to write the canon story, you are trying to force everyone to accept your numbers as law. The presentation of the alt has been nothing but saying canon is wrong. My numbers say they should have done this or that.
It is not that odd that your ego will not let you see the issue.
Canon is wrong. The only viable way to do anything is in the alt. A rewrite is required. The only way forward is the alt. Keep chanting that. Someday, someone else might believe it, other then you.
I do expect to get a ban for being straight forward with this one. This crap has gone on far to long.
|
ghostrider
09/16/21 03:08 AM
45.51.181.83
|
As of 3055, approximately 3,000 JumpShips were said to operate in the Inner Sphere[24] (up from some 2,000 in 3025[25]). However, this has been dismissed in recent publications[26] as being inadequate to meet the observed shipping of bulk goods in the Inner Sphere, and off by one or two orders of magnitude.
This is in the wiki under jumpships. For someone that does SOOOOO much research it is difficult to believe this was overlooked.
And yes. Unlike someone else, I added in something that would conflict with the numbers as it is IMPORTANT to have all the fact shown, not just what makes the statement look good.
I do admit the jump of 1000 jumpships is too many give the rates that the ships are made, but then I do think the original numbers was too low. Even 3000 sounds low. And for some reason, this wiki entry gives me the feeling of dajavu.
Regiment
Consisting of 2 to 3 Wings of airborne vehicles, including Command Flight.
I was wrong that an aerofighter regiment was always 3 wings. They changed this since I played Aerotech. They still consider the regiment at 54 fighters without command 'lances'. 40 is considered 2 wings or equal to 2 battalions.
Edited by ghostrider (09/16/21 03:13 AM)
|
Cray
09/16/21 09:25 AM
136.226.19.182
|
Alright, thread's locked for a cooling period. This discussion has ceased to be about the topic and more about the users.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 190 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 11912
|
|
|
|
|
|
|