ghostrider
10/21/21 09:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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It seems some have the idea that everyone in a nation is completely dedicated to the nation surviving, even if it means they suffer. This is no where close to the truth.
The rich nobles and large corporations will be doing a lot to as much as they can to prevent from paying taxes as well as letting others gain advantages against their companies. They will pay those in the government to write laws that allow them large subsidies as well as lower taxes then everyone else, while trying to rig it so the taxpayers pay for it all, as well as pay the rich to leave them alone.
This includes overcharging for uses of things like Jumpships to do anything that does not benefit the company greatly is but one way they do this. The 50k fee is NOT law, but agreed upon by most. If your need is dire, and no one else has a ship around, you can expect to pay more or go without. Conscription of those ships only goes so far, and taking a ship not part of your nation is akin to hijacking. In the end, taking ships you don't pay for will get you black listed or start having to pay more for use, as those ships start doing what they can to make sure you don't just seize the ships.
Tech, and even building materials is another big thing that is misunderstood at times.
Those in power do NOT want other worlds growing strong enough to resist or compete against your power base, so will do things like sabotage your research, as well as water purifiers and such to make who ever is supporting a rival group to pay even more, hoping to force them to give up, or go broke. Even bribing law enforcement to at least delay, if not out right seize, shipments is but one tactic that would be used. And this is by others in your own nation, much less from another nation.
A good example of this is using states within a nation today. Cities in a state are not equal, and they will never be. And yet, it is suggested that this is not true. Saying each one would be at the same level as others is fictional at best, outright lying to oneself at worse.
A lot of worlds will never be self sufficient either. Some needed resources are none existent, or hard to find/extract because of location. The concept of water being a good one. The first example is to suggest the ice ships would be able to keep up with demands of all the worlds and would be cheap enough to use. If this was true, then all worlds would have oceans of fresh water on them before long. The fact water purifiers are far cheaper shows why this is false. To move ice between systems requires something the game has basically ignored or banned. The ability to co-ordinate a set of jumpships to jump at the same time, to an exact location without destroying an object in the mix of jump fields. If they did keep this, then some would 'game' the system. Why couldn't you just a station full of things in those fields? Same with the Yardships. Imagine how many regiments of units you could jump at one time.
Set up right, and you could bring in dozens of dropships at one time.
The tech on worlds is another misunderstood issue. Having the tech to fix a tractor is not the same tech as to smelting the ores and making one from the ground up. Some of the things on the same level of tech requires different methods of doing. Repairing a laser is not the same thing as making it from scratch. You could build a laser to use as a pointer, but that does not mean you could build one to melt off armor off a mech. Quality being an issue.
Now a major issue. The government does NOT want all worlds to be self sufficient. To do so, means you believe no one will try to cede from the nation or take over. To allow every company in a state to make something like the advanced armor on a tank, or the uranium depleted rounds for bullets is asking for someone to try and become the boss since they have the equipment to do so. One quick coup and you can lose dozens to hundreds of worlds quickly. There are always people that think they can do things better then those in charge now. Sometimes, this is true. Other times, they don't know everything they need to, and screw things up even worse.
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ghostrider
10/22/21 12:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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Some problems arise when every world is 'self sufficient' and can't be ignored.
The 1st succession war when the DC invaded the FS, worlds refused to send troops to where the fighting was going on, as they believed those worlds were able to handle any invaders. This same attitude would be a main one, as each world would think they do not need to send their money out to help anyone else.
The idea that everything can be built on every world ignores things like copyrights and the concept of supply and demand. A desert world will never had enough water on it to keep major populations alive. The people being able to build certain items will not be on every world. They will head towards where the jobs in the fields are. So someone that can build a fusion power plant would not be living on a world that does not produce them. Repair technicians know a lot about how to fix things, but not how to actually build them. Then you have specialized equipment that is required to build some items. Instead of having to have troops stationed everywhere, leading to a lack of troops to amass for things like invasions or helping defend worlds, you have them spread so far and wide, they are almost ineffective. Then comes in the need for supply and demand. Those that own businesses and those specialized workers, demand you pay them well. This does not happen if the markets are flooded with products they make. Basic economics at work. The idea of keeping YOUR people working, means you have to limit what others are doing in your area of work. You send specialized workers to areas when things need to be fixed. Much like what businesses do today. They send them to other cities to fix things, not have them all living there. This is very much like transportation of good. Main warehouses in a strategic location, then ship as needed to other areas.
Worlds that require the main government to support it are money makers. The worlds need the government to keep it alive, so are not likely to revolt or make huge demands. They send out more money then they would need to if they weren't relying on others for survival.
Also, it is important to understand that just because you can use something like a DVD player, does not mean you are tech savvy. If you don't know how to build it from digging the materials out of the ground to smelting and such, means your actual tech level is less then you believe. For most, the concept of how the DVD works is something they don't understand.
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ghostrider
10/22/21 07:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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Taking a look at the world today, a lot of the high tech nations have most of their high tech concentrated in specific areas, even in specific regions of a city. A good example of this is the computer chip issues going on right now. A large portion of them are made in Asia. As a large chunk of the resources needed to make them are owned by a single faction, there is a problem of supply being met. Yet if the fiction of having facilities across the high tech nations were actually true, then the shortage would not be happening.
The area call Silicon Valley is not because of them mining Silicon there. It used to be the main area that computer tech was designed at. The city I live it has nothing to even begin to come close to this. So the suggestion that everything is equal falls flat.
This is just like suggesting you can grow tropical foods in Antarctica outside of greenhouses.
In the game, the concept of having a small area specialized in making high tech, or even moderate tech is justified by this. Where a world might be considered C or even B in tech, this does NOT mean the entire world is able to make it. A region might be able to make a half track, they may not be able to make a jet aircraft.
The game is set up so trade is required between worlds for all to survive. If every world had what they wanted and needed, this concept would be destroyed. There would be no reason to even need to import or export anything. The need for anything other then a local defense pact would be unnecessary. Larger states would not be needed, so would fall to revolts as each world would refuse to keep those offworld rich because of things like taxes. They would keep the funds on world to fill their pockets.
This eventually leads to the game being pointless as the defenders would have heavily invested in anti ship technology and devices, so you could not even get close enough to bomb a world, much less land forces to invade it.
I, myself, had been looking into this very concept, and was enlightened about what it does to the game. I want to play with big stompy mechs, not fighter squadrons and warships.
One trend that I can see becoming an issue, is with power armor replacing tanks and such. Except for very limited ammo supplies, the power armor is superior to tanks in most, but not all, aspects.
But with respects to the realities of the game, having a ship yard, as well as every manufacturing plant required to keep a large, high tech military around is just not economical or feasible.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 12:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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One issue the game seems to miss, but then it wasn't meant to deal with, large economic issues.
The development of weapons doesn't seem to have issues on sticking to budgets. In large, militaries in the game always seem to have enough equipment for small invasions and such, yet only when there is a plot stating otherwise, is this not the case.
The fact is, the taxes taken in by the governments does not all go towards what it should. Nobles funnel off chunks for their personal coffers, as well as businesses with government contracts soaking up extra funds as well.
But one thing that is missed, is the fact that those taxes are meant for things other then military. This is a large issue a few seem to miss.
Keeping infrastructure going on worlds as well as expanding them is but a part of where taxes go. As the LC is supposed to have the greatest economy going, you would think they could have plenty of jumpships, dropships, as well as mechs, even the heaviest ones in the thousands. Yet this is not so. When the social generals ran things, it is easy to see why border industries didn't do so well staying in one piece, but even this doesn't say it all. New shipyards would fall under the navy, which does not seem to have the pull the land forces does. Even buy equipment from other nations would happen a lot, yet they still seem to lack.
Each world has it's own needs and desires. They use some of the taxes taken in for militia units. The idea that they receive billions in taxes and spend it all on military seems to be what some see. This is not true. So many things are required to keep a world going beyond just military. Keeping fresh water and food is the main one that seems to be forgotten. The roads, fuel, as fusion engines are NOT in abundance to be used everywhere for power. They would be one of the first things stripped when a raid happens. The parts could be used in so many things.
The areas around the governors mansions and the rich area would be well kept, soaking up more money, and poorer locations being left behind.
This ties into the tech distribution issue as well. The world might be tech B, but there will be large areas that are tech C and D, while specific areas might even reach into tech A. Money has a lot to say about this. If you can't afford a shovel, you can't afford the big farming Combine.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 12:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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More things the game doesn't deal with is things like the cost of rebuilding after combat.
Using real life events, just natural disasters, cost billions to rebuild after. Sometimes, that is in a single city. Now spread that out across a world or several worlds. Combat will destroy things just as quickly, and for some things, more completely.
One thing that has come up is a question of if the entire foundation of buildings hit by PPC and Laser fire would have to be replaced, due to the high heat melting the rebar used in those structures. I don't know, but would like some information on if this is needed.
So an invasion could very well cost trillions to rebuild, and this is without counting military assets. Replacing dropships can do the same thing. Yes, combat does damage and destroy them as well, since they are used for offense and defense.
This also is why building new forces is a problem. Only so many things are built, and some of them get destroyed in combat, and for some, just failures. A spheriod trying to land loses thrust from one of it's engines, may well destroy the ship, everything in it, and even where it was trying to land.
So the outcome of this is that there isn't an unlimited fund to expand the armies of a nation.
The above examples do not even take into account that some resources will have to be shipped in for building and rebuilding. Yes, some items will have to be shipped in, especially when combat is involved.
You can NOT build a landing area while trying to wait for a local supply company to get you the materials. The owning house will make sure that does not happen, hampering your trying to establish a stronghold. This will even include destroying the manufacturing site if necessary.
Yes, this will happen, especially if the defenders need time to get more help.
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Karagin
10/25/21 04:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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They do kind of cover the cost of rebuilding after combat, in that many worlds just simply do not recover enough to be at the pre-war levels and that has caused some to collapse down to being abandoned.
Okay, if and let me stress that, if you are trying to play by following the canon setting then yes certain things will or will not happen, but let me ask this, how many truly play canon? By that, I mean how many play the characters we read out in the novels? Going to say none because none of us are the writers. Even if a person says yes I play canon and my mech unit, and right there, that means you don't play canon, your unit is not canon, thus anything you do is outside of canon.
So worrying about fighting in a city won't change how a battle comes out. I have mentioned before that trying to play as canon characters lends to one major issue, if you are run a battle with say Peter Davion in it, and he is killed, that means anything he did is not going to happen, yet we know it happens because outside of your battle, he is alive etc...
If a planet is contested and both sides are doing all they can to keep it, then something will become set, yes a beachhead or bridgehead (depending on context and which group it is) will start working to build their own landing areas if they didn't take the local starport.
Something to consider, and it's one thing that irks me about the game setting, planets are huge. Your forces might control two out five continents, so tell me how you are going to stop my guys from building a new starport on the other side of the world? The idea that a single company or lance (insert Clan equivalent as needed) is all that is needed to defend a world is insane. And I find it to be one of the biggest flaws in the game.
The Houses have enough resources to fund their armies, what they don't have is enough to fully project their ability to conquer their neighbors. Let's look at House Davion. They took a chunk out of the CapCon, and held their own again Kurtia, then roughly 10 years later they hit the Combine across a wider front and didn't manage to more than grab a few worlds and find out that the Combine wasn't going to roll over and play dead.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 07:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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Truly any game played is going to change something in the canon line. That is fact. Simply just defeating or even hurting a unit will do so. That unit may fail because they are not at full strength or tied up in a fight with your unit instead of saving a battle elsewhere.
I do agree that playing characters in the storyline doesn't tend to end well for anything dealing with canon. The character doesn't have to die in order to effectively be pulled out of the future events. Simply losing an arm or a leg will do so. Being tied up in recovery will do so. This works in the other way as well. The Kell hounds battle with Kurita, where Morgan battle the one Kuritan (can't remember his name right now) could have killed each other, and all the events afterwards would be changed. The Kuritan death would have meant Genosha would never have come about.
The military losses tend to get fixed, but not quickly, and losing talent is hard to replace. The concept was to show that for those that believe you wave your hand and it magically fixes everything, is false. One unit can change the future of things. That one unit may be the recon patrol to spot the enemy sneaking in, or make that head shot killing the enemy commander.
The cost to replace a unit means that money is not creating a new lance.
With the arms race, units should go up in price dramatically, as all are looking for the extra units. Yet, the only thing that changes prices seems to be higher tech. Even salvage units don't seem to change much.
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ghostrider
10/26/21 04:14 PM
45.51.181.83
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Control of a section does not mean it is absolutely immune to raids and such. I do agree the term being in control makes it sound like nothing can happen. The problem with this is the fact that nations control a lot of worlds, yet can not prevent things from happening.
This is why raids happen verses invasions. Raids should hit multiple targets across a world, in order to scatter defending units sent out to deal with them. Responses are tested to see who and where the defenders are sent from.
Special forces tend to be sent in to deal with things, though some aerofighter runs can take down work progress on areas.
But I do agree that if you have control over an area, and have the resources, there is little, besides a full out assault, that can completely stop building something.
But the fact that non military assets are slow to be rebuilt, if ever, shows a problem with the game and people's perception. The unlimited funds and resources issue has people thinking the nations have a vast reserve of unused mechs and such, so they can just build a sprawling factory in a few weeks, and it will survive for hundreds of years.
And don't even consider how resources get to and from that factory. The infrastructure, like mines to support foundries as well as the vehicles needed to move the resources, if the factory is not built on top of the mine, which still needs some vehicles, are ignored.
For some factories, resources are needed to be imported from off world. So shuttles and dropships are needed at least. Out of system supplies means jumpships on top of that.
The idea of having regiments of infantry formed on a world with 10k people is such a fantasy. Even having 1m people is pushing it. Those people might be like the Coast Guard, where they have regular jobs, but fill in military units when needed. This is about the best that will happen. A standing regiment is not going to happen. Now realize, this is just the world in question, not having outside help to do so.
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ghostrider
10/27/21 12:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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The game does not really deal well with the regular forces stationed on worlds.
It is focused on mech on mech fights. That is where the main player base wants to focus on. Few want to chew thru hordes of vehicles and infantry to play the game, even though all worlds would at least some infantry.
In an untouched scenario, having a large military with pristine machines, as wanted numbers is NOT what the game portraits.
A single company, 12 mechs, at an average of 5 mil per unit is 60 mil. This is just to buy those units. As a lot of worlds will have limited funds to cover all their expenses, this would not be done. All the vehicles and such needed to just keep infantry in supplies would eat thru a lot of the budget. The world today is a bit out of whack with the super powers spending. Try using figures for countries that don't have 200+ naval vessel fleets, and hundreds of millions to billion dollar aircraft. Going back to the 5 mil per vehicle, most countries could not afford 100 vehicles. A regiment in the game is 108 for mechs and vehicles.
This does not cover the cost of the pilots, techs, base personnel, and other necessary things to keep them running.
This does not cover the buildings required to house the machines as well as the personnel required to run it all. We are not even gotten into atmospheric aircraft or in the game, Aerofighters.
As planetary budgets have to deal with far more then just military defense, there is just not enough money to have huge armies on world without off world financial support.
Now some will suggest that this could be built up within a few years, a piece at a time. Which is true. But the name of the game for the nations in the game is raids are meant to push those concepts out the window. Taking out a single tank regiment would cost over 500 mil with just vehicle replacement costs. Now add in other damage, including having to train up new pilots and such, and it will be years before you are close to full strength. And that is IF the enemy doesn't hit you again, or disrupt any shipments coming in. Taking out factories is almost number one priority on worlds that build their own units.
Which the concept of a raid is counter to the idea that all attacks have to take the enemy's factories.
Raids is a good way to keep your enemy trying to catch back up, while you get ahead. They have to pay for, as well as supply worlds that can't make it on their own because of damage done in raids. It forces the enemy to spread out units to cover worlds that can't do it themselves.
Damage to infrastructure reduces a worlds ability to rebuild, or even make money to try and do so. It is far worse when you rely on off world supplies, especially when your transports are hit.
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Karagin
10/27/21 01:17 AM
70.118.172.64
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I know what the game portrays, the reality is the logic still makes no sense. The idea though that you are going to field enough mechs to defend every world is not going to work either according to the game, so yes they should be wading through hordes of infantry and vehicles. Short of hitting a world of importance, you are not going to find Podunk guarded by lance mechs.
Taking out factories is great, but here's the catch, how soon before the smarter House leaders move the factories away from the border regions? Also, smart companies don't have all their eggs in one basket. Raids work, but they have the drawbacks of you spend more to gain next to nothing. How soon before the economics of just taking and holding the planet outweigh the cost of raiding?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
11/03/21 11:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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As the game is set up to allow players to have fun, which means normally units are available to them, some take it as that means the story line follows the same principle. This is not true. If it was, then the DC would have taken out the FS in the first war, and the LC would eventually out build the rest. Even more so, the SL should not have fallen, as they would not have had to 'rely' on the RWR forces to secure the TH.
This also means that not a single unit the SL put in the field would have had all low tech parts in them. As the story went, high tech units were not as wide spread in the SLDF as it should have been. Given the periphery war, it also means the periphery would actually be in better shape then the houses during the Amaris war. Those units left on the battle field would have given the periphery high tech parts, which would have been used in their units.
I would suspect that a LOT of parts storages would have been destroyed in order to prevent this from happening, but those would be replacement parts for units the SLDF repaired.
As the game is not set up as an economic scenario, the concept that the military did not have an unlimited budget gains power. Given the fact that the SLDF required help from the houses to maintain a large military, this is obviously not true. Given the SDS, the SLDF did have a high degree of remote control to their name, it is very possible they could have had normal ground units, even if not mechs, that could be programmed or controlled by remote, reducing the issues of needing pilots. A single person could control a unit of four without too much of a problem. Laser coms being more reliable, as most ECM systems can't do much other then physically get in the way. Yes, smoke and such would work, but circumstances come into play here.
Basic routines, like used in most combat formations can be done. Alpha 5 Attack routine with enemy C being main target would be used to make sure the units did have something to do, even if out of touch. The issue here is the game was not set up to use this concept. Given the time it was made, the idea of a remote unit that could do this was restricted to cruise missiles and such, basically a one time use item.
As the game DOES have robot security in it from the original mechwarrior RPG, but never got deep into it, they gave the basic concepts the possibility to the game.
This is also where a world could have a high tech rating, yet not really have the items spread across the world. Isolated areas would have extremely high tech, while most of the rest are lucky to have middle range tech.
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ghostrider
11/07/21 03:25 AM
45.51.181.83
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I am not sure if others think this way or not, but I will say this about the setting of the game.
I believe the war has created an effect like several war torn countries in the real world. The high tech is available, they just don't have the means to get and use it.
Half bombed out cities, where people are just trying to fix things, and constantly get hit yet again. The have the ability to get a water purifier in, but it will cost a good chunk of their very limited budget.
I would believe some spots or even entire worlds are set up as bait for the enemy to hit. Left under defended, so the enemy hits there instead of where it might hurt a lot, like factories they need, or maybe even nobles vacation homes.
But some seem to misunderstand that raids are not the same as invasions. The raids purpose can be meer destruction and demoralization of the population of a nation, to trying to force the enemy to dedicate forces to protect that area from further attacks, thinning out defenders elsewhere.
This can really become an issue when the raids target building materials so importing is the only way to get anywhere.
One aspect of the game that has always been a large hole is the budget of realms. Given the real world and how it spends the taxes that come in, the entire cost of war is lower then it should be. In 3025, the Atlas is one of the most expensive machines, yet with the 5 dollar exchange rate said in the books, that puts the Atlas at almost 50 mil. That doesn't even come close to the weapons of today for more then a few things. Some aircraft today cost billions, not millions. Even back when the game came out, weapons of war were comparably more expensive then the game. And I have not heard anything about the prices skyrocketing when wars are on. Just shortages.
I know this is a war game, so economics isn't vital, but in the stories and back ground, there should be something said on why things are that dire.
6 billion dollars was moved from the military in the U.S. and that was just money they used for building schools and such. This is a single country in the world. Supply and demand would mean more then a few nations would have a very hard time trying to get mechs for their forces, unless the government themselves owned and ran the factories. The rich nations would buy up all the units, leaving nothing for the poorer nations.
Again. It is Battletech, not Battle Economics 101.
Not sure why I am doing this thread. Most already know what is accurate, and what is a bit opinionated on my part.
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ghostrider
11/16/21 11:19 AM
45.51.181.83
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The concept of pirates has come up with some believing they would not exist for long due to the difference in power between any on band and the nations.
This is correct only in the total military power of each side, but ignores some facts on why they continue to exist.
The first being money. No matter what most think, money is the main factor for anyone becoming a pirate. There are others, such as trying to get revenge on high level figures for some wrong doing, or implied wrong doing. But money is a big one. The feeling of power is another major factor.
But the reason why known pirates continue to operate falls back to the broken idea that governments don't negotiate or tolerate such organizations.
For some, they actively support the pirates, as long as they are working against their enemies, foreign or domestic. Yes, egos do come into play as one ruler within a realm is trying to gain power at the cost of others losing it. Example: A new company is trying to establish itself in the mech market, but Defiance is using it's power to prevent that company from getting any sort of contracts. So for a few million C-bills, a raid can be set up to hit Defiance to reduce their output, and force the military to find another source of mechs until the repairs can be done. The lord of the world the company's plant is on will look the other way with a good donation, as the new company will increase employment as well as funds coming into his world.
Another false concept is the no negotiations or tolerance of pirates. Alls it takes is for a minor lord or rich family to have one of their relatives taken hostage, to start the chain of events that allow pirates to exist and even thrive in an area. This means the world leader will look the other way while the pirates do small raids, building up funds and money, until they can catch a bigger prize. Even blackmail with sensitive or personal materials will do the trick. Even local militia can turn pirate and be tolerated on one world, as long as they hit other worlds.
For some, the concept of the piranha principle doesn't exist. This issue is real. You have only so many troops, and the larger you get, the harder it is to cover everything. And others are trying to do the same thing.
Being part of the same nation does NOT mean you are supporting others in that nation. For your organization to be strong, you can not have others that can bully you or even contradict you. As long as you pay lip service to the ruler of the realm, and look loyal, most will not bother with looking deep into your doings. For some, simple bribes and blackmail prevent or hinder such issues.
After a while, the pirates have a better force then local militias or planet garrisons. They have their access to prevent detection when coming in, and can overwhelm local forces. The world may still have more forces then the pirates, but the pirates taken what they can and get out. They were not looking to hold territory, like most governments are.
Now the piranha effect kicks in. In order to move against the pirates, the world leader has to pull forces from other areas, which in turn opens that up to being attacked. A well organized pirate band has someone inside the government to warn them if something does get sent for them. But the basic philosophy is get in, steal what you can, and get out. Hopefully without a fight. It is only after you are so successful, that the local ruler being blackmailed, can't prevent the counter strike. It may well cost them the lives of their family that is imprisoned by the pirates, or their secrets revealed, if the pirates believe the person turned them in.
If I missed something, or am inaccurate, I would like to hear about it.
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Karagin
11/16/21 02:03 PM
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Piracy and bandits will exist in the Inner Sphere for three reasons:
1. It's easier to steal things than to buy them. And then you can resell them at higher markups, thus making money.
2. Politics. The activity of these groups allows the different powers, be it a house or a corperation, to do things that would normally cause MASSIVE and MAJOR diplomatic issues and incidents.
3. Revenge. Many groups will see slights by their own political leaders as a call to rebel, and when those fail, the rebels need to go somewhere and rebuild, thus off to the edges of known space and then the raiding starts and hijackings, etc...which then feeds the other two above.
For those who claim these groups won't exist, clearly have NOT read the backstory history of the Houses and other minor groups.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/17/22 12:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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It just dawned on me that worlds like Hesperus are said to be unable to produce enough food for the population, and it was suggested that the factory workers were taken offworld. Now the question is taken where?
When the game first came out, functioning orbital habitats were extremely rare. But the real issue comes about with the fact that food and water were the issue, not a lack of housing.
In a habitat, this doesn't change this fact either.
The solution would be try and grow the food in orbit, if you were not going to import it.
This is one reason why the idea of a self sufficient world is uncommon in the game.
There would have been more that met this criteria during the SL time, but the succession wars removed a lot of this ability. Weither thru nuking water sources, or using chemical weapons to poison them, on up to leaving the entire world unihabitable. For some, the game suggests resources like ores ran out.
This is not saying metal ores is absolutely necessary to create a self sufficient world, but it does limit it to a very low tech one.
The fact is, there are more then a few worlds that are not totally self sufficient. The idea that high tech is required to be self sufficient is a problem. For worlds that need water purifiers, this would be correct. For others, it is a luxury, but not needed.
Trade, or at the very least, supply runs is necessary in the IS. There is no way to get around it. As most organizations will stop trying to support a colony(world) that is not profitable for them, the people living there would have to trade for necessities.
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Karagin
01/17/22 01:45 AM
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The idea that some worlds need more food than make is common in all sci-fi settings that have vast planetary empires. How they deal with this varies. Some use massive imports which leads to smuggling and other things that play into overall story arcs that we would be reading about or watching. Others leave it as a background issue that might come from time to time.
IN this game, it's mentioned and then kind of gets the mixed treatment, it's there, and it's a plot point but it's not one that is often even mentioned or cared about unless an author needs it for a plot point. Now that could be something a GM runs with for an adventure for his gaming group or it could be something that is also used as something the players hear about in passing at bar or spaceport news show.
There is mention in the original Periphery sourcebook how two worlds less than a jump or two apart have issues that each could help the other with, if only they had regular jumpships bring in cargo dropship to tet the goods to both sides...even with all the super advances in tech, the many worlds of the stellar empires in this game won't have everything solved and saying that they take an entire factory complex OFF world daily bases only to bring hundreds of thousands (if not close to a million) people back the very next...yeah no. Just because someone wants to believe that doesn't mean it's an actual fact of the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
01/17/22 03:24 AM
101.185.96.199
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Hesperus - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hesperus
Population
3025 – 55,000
3068 – 55,000
Dropships eg Behemoth - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Behemoth_(DropShip_class)
Cargo 74,972 tons
Dropships and Jumpships book – initially Cargo was 85,000 tons
Resupplying a vital centre such as Hesperus really is not an issue once the size of the workforce is taken into consideration (above).
Where their employees jump to …
Best Bet … New Kyoto as 35.0 light years
Population 3067 – 5,467,000,000
SIL – B-B-B-A-C
Advanced World
Moderately Industrialized
Mostly Self Sufficient
High Output
Modest agriculture (subjective to population requirements?)
ie good living conditions to keep your employees happy prior to a fly out fly in rotation basis whist working!
Also New Kyoto would provide an excellent warehouse world to resupply Hesperus’ food requirements.
In all reality New Kyoto should be the regional Capitol world circa 3025 – 3068.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/17/22 12:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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So you have employees work their shift, then spends days going to the jump point, in order to go to another system. Spend days doing to another world, only to turn around and head back to the plant for their work shift?
This is not the standard sci fi games where you can jump to another system from orbit. You don't take an hour or so to do it.
The concept of sending your work force even off world doesn't make any sense, with the exception of maybe a rotation of like 6 months to a year to give them time away from the factory and world. And in this case, even that is unlikely.
It also doesn't address where they stay during the 'tour of duty' at the factory.
To do so means every 8 to 12 hours, you have another ship taking off/landing with employees of the factory. And the conga line means that each shift will require their own jumpship to take them to/from their 'habitat'.
This is far more wasteful then shipping in the necessities.
Kind of surprised this had to be said.
As a side note, it is kind of stupid that Defiance has not cut out additional terraces in the mountain ranges to expand living/farming/factory areas.
This is a great case for making the underground society set up.
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Karagin
01/17/22 12:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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Once again they would be doing no such thing, sorry but that total insanity even for a game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (01/17/22 12:53 PM)
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Requiem
01/17/22 02:23 PM
101.185.96.199
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Suggest researching oil rig workers first as an example - then consider expanding the time and staggering the shifts as per Jump-ship and drop-ship arrival / departure patterns - also consider the number of people that can be transported at any one time given drop-ship maximum passengers as removing the entire population on a sing le occasion cannot be considered viable.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
01/17/22 05:58 PM
70.118.172.64
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They may have tried to get more use of the land for farming have maxed things out, same for the oceans there as well. However the idea that fighting has happened the terrain is described as rocky etc...yeah some issues. However, they could be getting food in as part of business deals for spare parts, given that there are other factories making things other than mechs and weapons.
And no company is going to play the transit game of taking their workers off-world between shifts, not going to happen. Makes no sense from a cost side of the house OR a production side of the house. No matter how much one wants it to be that way it's not. And if that is not comprehensible, then I suggest reading through the actual sourcebooks again starting with the original House Books and reading the sections on the economics.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/17/22 09:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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Just realized a major flaw in shipping workers from world to world. Something that even the succession wars did not do.
You can shut down Defiance Industries by delaying or even destroying the jumpships carrying the workers. The ability to hijack the ships would avoid destroying the jumpships, while gaining the ship, and stopping work production at the factory.
Trying to protect the ships would mean having to divert even more assets to be on and with the ship(s) moving the people.
The same could be said about food shipments, but that is a bit easier to replace the knowledgeable workers.
Barring the jumpship method, hitting the dropships is another way.
A note about the Behemoth. It is NOT set up for moving people. The life support is set for the crew, and not much else. You would have to put more life support to even begin to transport passengers.
Orbital facilities would mandate moving workers off the facilities. There is just no room for apartments and extra resources like meals/drinks for the workers. So sending them planet side or to a habitat would be required. Part of why the unmanned facilities were considered better. No need for hordes of air breathers on board.
This is a good place to have robots not only working on whatever, but also guarding the facilities as well and maintaining it.
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Reiter
01/18/22 05:23 PM
107.185.100.70
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Most trade across space will be luxury items with high markup. Its prohibitively expensive to import food stuff light years just to leave it in a warehouse where it can go bad; where as the first priority for colonizing the planet would be implementing some kind of food production capabilities.
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ghostrider
01/18/22 07:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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It isn't in question about setting up food production as soon as possible.
The problem is there are worlds that food production is not possible without major equipment, such as hydroponic farms and such, which have to have food imported, with the prime example of Hesperus III, with Defiance industries on it. There are more around the IS that require importation of other items besides food. If food is not high on importation lists, then why is there such things as Bread Basket worlds?
As there are worlds that are not even close to Hesperus that say food and water needs to be imported, causes the issue to be questioned.
Mind you, this is not just a temporary importation, like a raid has taken down some farms or the water purifier, but have been done even before the fall of the SL.
The luxury items is not questioned as well. Some worlds will not produce luxury items worth shipping out. Others are well known for high end products. This is not counting military hardware, such as mechs or tanks.
If jumpships are only used for transporting luxury items and military equipment, then the worry of having them wiped out isn't as imperative as the games background makes it.
It also sounds odd that independent ships, such as miners and such would exist without being contracted by a corporation to buy such items.
The entire concept of mercs would be severely reduced as well, since they rely on commercial jumpships and even dropships to move around outside of employee units.
So wether it is economical or not, free jumpships moving around without a set path has to happen for the game to work properly.
As for costs, for a world, spending the money to import food or die doesn't have much of a choice.
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Karagin
01/19/22 01:08 AM
70.118.172.64
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The area I think we are missing is this, they have farms and such on the planet, they have too many people on the planet and the system itself, aka the remaining worlds/astroids/stations, etc... in the system also need to be feed. Thus food has to be brought in to meet the needs since the system can't feed itself successfully and still be a weapons manufacturing center.
Now, here is the catch, and it's something TPBT has FAILED do really address beyond say the Sol System, are we don't know how much about the rest of the system. Like what are the other planets like? Can the moons of the local gas giant (if there is one) be terraformed to cover agriculture-related stuff? How many of the other worlds have colonies or outposts on them. Small things like this would render a lot of things mute and give the background a better footing and prevent contradictions from popping up so often, as well as stop certain folks from grabbing these missing things and running wild.
Now I am not saying we need a full set of books cover every system, not that I would mind personally and I would buy them if they were written well, but we do need the major worlds that have the importance enough to be holding well you know the vital military-industrial complexes that keep the Houses in the business of war.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/19/22 01:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Hesperus system mentions several other locations besides where Defiance is located at. It is also possible those worlds did support enough farms to feed the system, so jumping in food wasn't necessary. At least one of the Gray Death Legion novels says that food needs to be imported into the Defiance plant. I want to say it was in one of the older books.
I do admit that the newer books may have changed this.
As for other worlds in that system, the successor wars may have destroyed the growing ability of the other planets in the system. I would also accept the statement is because a system wide shortage prevents any system grown food from making it to Defiance.
This may be true for more then a few other worlds/systems as well. WMD may well have made fertile grounds in those systems unusable. The concept of forgotten worlds may also cover some as well. Not possible in a system that is inhabited, to cover this potential misunderstanding.
I do believe the game may well have the supply issue put in there to make weaknesses in an otherwise 'impenetrable" set up. But then having fields across a world, does not stop the issue either. They would well be targeted in raids, so to force the enemy to devote ships to bringing in food and water, and reduce what is available to the military.
For those that believe food is not an issue, look up how much food an aircraft carrier goes thru in a day. The one I seen dealt with a 4000 personnel ship.
Also, a world may well be able to grow food, but it is deadly for the populace to eat. No way know to filter out the toxins at the moment.
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Karagin
01/19/22 07:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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An army of 50,000 may consume in one month as much as 4,500 tons (4.1 million kilograms) of food in order to be able to fight. Civilians need far more, those are hard facts, and even with things like prepared food, like MREs or similar it still won't last long. Add in attacks, shortages, natural disasters, etc...and the number will go up and down. It's all a numbers game.
Thinking it's not, well we all wish certain things would not be as they are. So Defiance has to bring in food from out of the system to meet the needs of their workers, they also know they can't ship them all-out system and back each day. So the cost will always play its' part. Pretty sure the overall cost is added to overall cost the mechs folks buy from the,.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/19/22 07:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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So of these reasons are ones I (and others) tossed out as points against the Word of Blake SUPER plot, and those were dismissed by TPTB and their buddies, yet the game has already proven in the older game facts that something just doesn't work, but we all know plot armor and favorites and folks who want to change things just because they don't like something, are going to win in the end.
Like how the Falcons strip all their forces off their worlds to fight on Terra, completely logical and military sense that doesn't make, but hey it happens...but fans aren't the writers or TPTB...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/20/22 10:07 AM
70.118.172.64
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Okay, so according to all the available information I can find, an average person in the US consumes 4 pounds of food a day, and over the course of a year, one ton. Now with that information, we can apply the math to the population of Hesperus and figure out what they are importing and I am willing to bet they are not moving people to the source of the food and back to the planet in shifts to work.
Now, let's add in some variables that will monkey up things, the planet has gone through HOW many owners since it was colonized? How many battles? How many nukes or WDMs used on it? How much environmental damage from attacks on the weapons plants and other factories? All of that can impact the amount of food they could grow or can grow. Add to this nightmare of numbers, how much land is devoted to the sprawling mech and weapons factories? That alone might be one of the reasons they are importing food.
As I stated above, this is a logical look at the BT universe, as with the other major events TPTB don't seem that concerned if their grand schemes of the story fit completely or neatly into the setting because they will adjust the setting to fit their needs, they can do that, they are ones writing the story, meanwhile, we the players have five choices, play it like it's given if one is trying to play canon, play it like it is but ignore canon and have fun, run your own adventure in the overall setting but stay off or away from canon settings and stick one or two planets to fight over. Just run mech on mech engagements and not worry about the background at all. OR finally, drop the whole thing and come up with your own setting and game.
All have merits of fun, and all can work for those that want things to go with their way of doing things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/20/22 12:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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With the concept of importing ice asteroids, there are biological issues that come with it. What is in the ice besides water? So even bringing down the ice asteroid does not mean it doesn't have to be purified.
With food, issues such as allergies to food comes to mind. Some people are lactose intolerant. So something as simple and Mac and Cheese might set off someone. Rice cakes are horrible due to the large amount of starch in them, which is really bad for someone with diabetes.
As the largest dedicated ships for cargo transport is NOT designed to move people, you run into issues here. To upgrade it to carry people means adding in rooms and air scrubbers/oxygen generators, as well as heating units.
With the example of the nukes, how much garbage is in the atmosphere that is hazardous or even deadly to a human when ingested? Besides the nuclear radiation.
But it comes down to even the most lush worlds may not be able to grow food for consumption due to things in the environment that can't be removed without a very long and expensive process.
This does tie into the discussion that the amount of dropships and jumpships is too low to sustain the IS as it needs more just to keep up with some of the major worlds, much less the minor ones, and have some left over for non scheduled runs, such as taking mercs to a specific system. Government transports would not be used, as they are needed by the government, as well as carrying extra supplies to worlds they own. This does NOT cover newly acquired worlds either.
So a good example would be the 4th war. How many of them were damaged to the point of needing supplies imported in order to just survive? This may well have been added into the reason why the FS went into the depression. I doubt it, as things like this are overlooked unless it fits with the next scenario.
And yes. I know this distracts from having fun stomping each other in giant robots.
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