ghostrider
05/17/22 12:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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We will allow? We do not have a choice. The canon story line had the clans with warships. But the fact that all the houses used bombardments and nukes when the SLDF fell apart, as well as the SLDF and periphery plus Amaris before it finally collapsed tells what is needed to know. In total war, one where the righteous leaders claim that anything done to put them on the throne is alright, follows human psyche. If you want to continue the concept of removing warships from the clans, stop posting on a canon thread and go back to your alts.
The SLDF died when the civil war raged on the pentagon worlds. It did not show the values of the SL, but the hatreds the national divisions had brought forth. At that point, 20 years in the future, when the clans retook those worlds, the last corruption of the SL and SLDF was destroyed. Until the warriors took complete control, it was a decent government. Getting rid of the pride of nationality, and your blood line, removed a lot of what causes wars and civil wars. Now, there is no being from house such and such, which is far superior to the rest.
Remember what you wrote. The era of the succession wars was on hold until the clans were dealt with. Did Katherine get that memo? She was pushing to destroy the FC for her own personal agenda, which was to become first lord. First by breaking up the FC, then plunging it into a civil war. When were the clans dealt with? The invasion was stopped, but the clans were still there. Had she helped Victor, the clans would probably have been removed from the IS entirely.
How did Katherine's grab for power help the IS with the clans? You just made the argument for Katherine being the main issue on why the clans were allowed to stay in the IS.
Thomas sent Joshua to New Avalon, since the kid would not have survived the trip home. But with this, the question of why did they send Joshua to New Avalon? He was dying then. There was no stopping that. All knew it as well. So your statement doesn't make sense.
Yeah. It would have been better to have someone start accusing Victor and the doctors of torturing the child to death. Or allowing him to lie there screaming in pain. What is more gruesome? What is more humane? Why do you pull the plug on a dying person? And Joshua wasn't alone. The doctors and nurses were in the room with him. Or did you miss that part as well?
Do you think the clans would not interrigate the person given up for having the weapons? If they have a live person, they would have gotten the truth out of them. Oh yeah. I guess that answer wasn't thought about.
You equate not blending in with being stupid? Damn, there is so many things that can be said here.
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Requiem
05/17/22 04:57 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Warships
Thus the Clans are allowed to retain warships and the right to commit any atrocities via orbital bombardment with no consequences whatsoever – whist the IS maintained nuclear weapons they were all ‘intimidated’ to use them. They were even not allowed to manufacture PT dropship craft, even though they had the technology to manufacture anti-warship weapons.
Now can anyone justify the war crime and complete lack of retaliation?
This is perhaps one of the worst scenarios ever created.
Where is - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ares_Conventions
Quote:
The SLDF died when the civil war raged on the Pentagon Worlds.
Sorry to burst your bubble – The Clans killed off the SLDF the day not one other clan stood up for Clan Wolverine and were cowered into submission by Niki. This is the day they betrayed everything their former oaths to SLDF stood for.
From this day on they collaborated with evil to form one of the most despotic cultures known to man!
Now, there is no being from house such and such. Now, there is being from Clan such and such, which is far superior to the rest.
Quote:
did Katherine get that memo
Yes this is true, she would be the only one to try to become the new First Lord for life if elected. Realistically, however, even if she was elected as First Lord could she have held it post her term of office – as there should be safeguards in place (and yet no one ever considered to put them in place)?
As we have seen with warships if only used / attempted once – no harm no foul.
Let’s get this straight it was Victors pitiful display of leadership that brough the breaking up of the FC and it was Victor, not Katherine, who plunged them into Civil War.
If given a free reign post Falcon / Wolf War – given her Machiavellian tendencies – she most certainly would have killed off both!
How did Victor’s grab for revenge help the IS with the Clans? You just made the argument for Victor being the main issue on why the Clans were allowed to stay in the IS.
Quote:
Thomas sent Joshua to New Avalon
With the hope they may give him a few more years of life.
Quote:
Joshua wasn’t alone
Where is his family and those who love him?
Quote:
interrogation
Yes, sooner or later everyone finally gives in to the pain – however this is not what is important – what is important is the time you can hold out. The time that allows your compatriots to go to ground – to re-hide all weapons caches that are known by this captured individual … this is what is important!
Quote:
intelligence operative
What is important for an agent to succeed, what characteristics are required to succeed in their mission?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/17/22 09:20 AM
70.118.172.64
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Warships are moot points, and no one had enough to do anything stunning with them. They are a fleet in being only stage. Oh, look, I have ten warships, and you have 12; well, I also have five more fighter wings, so it equals out. Warships aren't going to win a war, and they are there to tie up resources and look suitable for the media. I am willing to bet that sitting in one or more of the star systems that make up each house's holdings, they each had one or two mothballed warships from back around the end of the First War or Second. And those would have been brought back to life once warship production became viable again or used as tech specs for production.
The Clans had their own warships; HOWEVER (note the comma), the majority were NOT new builds; they were modified SL ships. So the shock and awe of warships died off fast. Note we didn't see the Inner Sphere powers surrender the second it was made clear that the Clans had warships. Also, your arguments against them are not based on any logical point. If you do not like them, don't use them in your group.
Katherine was playing a game that she didn't fully understand. She was playing at divine right to rule. She wanted power and thought that alone meant she could lead. She didn't care about anything other than her petty, childish wants. Katherine also didn't understand the Clans and wanted to treat them like another Inner Sphere power, hence her asinine capture by Vlad when she jumped into Clan Space.
Joshua was sent to New Avalon because Hanse said that NAIS could help with his cancer, possibly treat it, or keep it from killing him faster. This was done so our imposter would make weapons and tech for the other powers facing the Clan threat. This all happen BEFORE the Battle of Luithen. If I recall, he had childhood leukemia. As for why Imposter Tommy didn't go see him, the reason will be legend, but he didn't, which is part of the point. The double wouldn't have fully worked if he had.
On the pain points, I will say Requiem has never seen what leukemia does to a person and how treats help manage all that. The child was a plot point, and he was there to give TPTB something else for Victor to mishandle and screw up all so he could learn from it. Push Victor out of Daddy's shadow and daddy's games.
Yes, the Clans would have interrogated anyone captured with weapons, and they would have found out who else had them and where they got them just because some of the writers chose to show the Clans at times as different versions of Sgt. Schultz and Colonel Klink should not be considered the norm. Bad tropes and such by writers show a lack of wanting to give us believable main characters. Like we are lead to believe that every Intell agency bar WolfNet missed the whole build-up of the WoB or if they noticed the excuse given was the Clans were a bigger deal. Having worked with both Military Intelligence officers and enlisted and some from that three-letter agency, I can tell you that they don't miss a lot, and getting the boss to listen might be the issue. Still, the info is briefed and followed upon. The Houses and ComStar knew; they chose not to worry about it. And the point is some would have acted or at least had something in place to mitigate things.
Requiem, please do us all a favor, go read the novels again, go read the sourcebooks again. Also, please stop throwing your fan fiction in as facts. That is not debating in good faith with the rest of us. You change your stance with your own fiction every time we counter it, which ends up not making any sense. Now, if you are trying to use these boards as your sounding board for ideas to be refined and such, then tell us that. Tell us that you want to debate your fan fiction and then see if anyone will. Even when I have offered examples of fan fiction it was done so to prove a point, like there was no need for the WoB to go from crazy group to superpower to get the same set of events to weaken all the powers in the Inner Sphere. Never did I say hey this is what happen, it was a single example explained, and then we moved on. You don't do that. You keep trying to re-write canon to suit what you want. Not how it works. If you want that, then please go write your own settings and give us that, then you would have your ideas as canon.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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This is not the alt. Get that thru your head. As yet again, this is a discussion about canon. The same tired talking points keep coming back up, again and again and again. Go back to keeping out of conversations if you can't distinguish alt from canon.
The clans had warships. The IS had warships. The game has had, and used warships since everyone was on Terra. In the future, they will have warships. I don't see the outcry for Kentares. Or all those worlds nuked in the first two wars. Maybe the assassination of entire villages/cities.
Where is the Ares Conventions? Isn't that the big rules of war that the SL abandoned shortly after it ratified it? So the great SL make using nukes legal again?
The Wolverines refused to conform to the governmental model agreed by all 800 that removed the civil war combatants, then formed a new government. Technically, those that refused were traitors to the government change. Given the changes were extreme, I can see most then a few resisting. Those that did not like the change, could have left before the strike.
But the SL died when the civil war happened. The full devastation of the civil war was against the entire concept of the SLDF. Everything was a target. It is surprising that the pentagon worlds were livable when it ended.
The use of chemical warfare during the St. Ives reclamation was used on multiple worlds. No outcry here?
Poisons used in the 4th war, and still nothing?
As stated before, the only reason why the clans warships are a problem is because they hurt the FC. How about an outcry that Comstar did not use their warships to stop the clans from using theirs? The fact that they were never used like that again, until the IS started doing it says alot.
Where did it say she would be voted in for life? Had she been elected, there would have been another succession war, with all states attacking the LC/LA to remove her. There was a safe guard. Only 4 years, then a new person. Not sure how you missed that. She would never have been able to change that without going to war. Sounds like she was trying to be the next Amaris.
Had her greed to seize power not taken hold, the FC would have remained together, making it that much easier to remove the clans from FC space, and probably helping the FRR. This would have forced the DC to help with the FRR or risk losing political clout with them.
Might need to drop the looking glass. Victor made mistakes, but that isn't what destroyed the FC. It was Katherine and her grab for power. That is how the developers wanted it. Victor left it alone to run the Comguard. If not for Katherine's petty side, she may well have kept the FC together, but no. She had to punish all that upset her.
But that doesn't seem to register, as it is canon, and not alt.
Read the rest of that statement.
Thomas sent Joshua to New Avalon, since the kid would not have survived the trip home. But with this, the question of why did they send Joshua to New Avalon? He was dying then. There was no stopping that.
This, in itself, caused an issue. The jumps to New Avalon should have killed him, had he been that bad. Sending him home after being on New Avalon for years would definitely kill him.
And your question of where his family was? Really? They were all in the FWL. There was no way to get them to New Avalon in time. The command circuits only work when they have been set up before hand. There is on way they would have been sitting there during the entire time, so don't even try that one.
Did you not read when they had Phelan being interrogated? They used chemicals like a truth serum. They did not pull out finger nails or shove spikes into his body. Giving in wasn't an option.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 12:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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The subject of Wolfnet is something that should be addressed again.
The clans supposedly had no real dealings with that sort of work in 200 years, yet they were better then the IS networks which were in use since before humans left Terra.
And somehow, the rest of the clans were not able to use intel gathering?
As stated before, they had to be trueborns, as the clans would not allow freeborns to run loose in the IS. It can be argued that they were freeborns trained from birth, so loyalty might be there.
But the fact that the agents did things completely against the trueborn values, they could not be trained in the open.
It was said Goliath Scorpion had trained the Dragoons commandos. Yet that did not cause issues with the other clans, that Scorpion had and used the information in order to keep it updated?
And any clanner would be hard pressed to blend into the IS before the end of the invasion, including the Dragoons themselves. They had weird ways of doing things, but they were not trained for dealing with the public like a normal IS citizen. The story of having to leave equipment in the Periphery, because past intel runs didn't spot the fact that some mechs, much less the huge warships, were not active in the IS says something.
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Karagin
05/17/22 05:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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If recalling the Dragoons had a lot of time working with the Merchant Caste as well as the Scoprions training. Also, they went with loyal-ish Freebirths with the idea that their DNA would be added to the gene banks if things went well. Cake method here. Also, the Dragoons sent out a recon team ahead of their main force, so they had a general idea of things and still, they raised alarms and continued to be the subject of a lot of eyes on them. So their intel had to be spot on, mainly to keep their secrets and to make sure they knew what they are facing.
The Clans broke a lot of their own rules, but they didn't make a fuss because they knew the others were as well. Only major breaches like the Wolverines and a few others did things go completely pear-shaped.
As I said before, Treaties are only worth their ability to be enforced, and normally they are void before the ink is dry on the first signature. A prime example is the Ottawa Treaty, which bans the use of cluster munitions and FASCAM weapons systems. Great idea, so great in fact that BOTH United States and Russia REFUSED to sign it or even honor it. And many other nations refused as well. Yet many have cried foul of late over the use of these weapons and then get mad when the facts are given out on who DIDN'T sign it.
So the Ares Convention does NOT apply to the Clans, they don't have to follow, and as pointed out for like 20th time, the Star League violated numerous times during its hay day. Warships are not going away, the concept is part of the game, no one had a fleet that really mattered beyond being a resource hog to have to compete against. The reason they are not around is that they took the spotlight off the Mechs, the same reasons vehicles are still nerfed to high hell and beyond. Also, warships are far more able to be munchkin and min-maxed to the point they are useless as far fungoes. There are several PRIME examples of that being done in the design and aerospace section here on the boards. Now Requiem I am not sure why you will not listen when we point out that your fan-fiction-based counterpoints are not even worth entering into the discussion, yet you continue to do so, why? Do you think that if you keep tellings us about them we will start to take them as canon? Or is it that you want us to proof your alternate and fix your loopholes and shortfalls for you as free editors? I am starting to believe that is indeed the case.
Joshua was a plot point for Victor, nothing more. Anything else as to why his family didn't come to visit is clearly a misunderstanding of that plot point and shows you have not read the Kerensky Heritage books at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 09:21 PM
45.51.181.83
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The point with Wolfnet, is they were better then even ROM. ROM has been refining their abilities since before the fall of the SL. The clans supposedly did away with such actions. That is not saying that they didn't have their little secrets, or that another caste, like the scientists, didn't keep the art of spying alive. But going from the clan environment to the IS could not have been that easy to master in that short of time. So either the clan information on the spies is wrong, or the lack of how long the clans were spying on the IS was off.
I can understand that the clans spies would have access to special codes for the HPG networks, that were in there since the SL ran them, but some of the intel required actual infiltration of things, such as physically getting into rooms.
A lot of treaties throughout human history, has had most tossed as soon as one side was bound by it, preventing them from promoting their greed. This is not saying all treaties were tossed.
I believe Karagin is right about pushing the alt so much, that some will think it is canon. I don't see the alt getting many responses except for that stupid moron Ghostrider. And that tends to be when something extremely out there shows up.
Now. The question I had before about LRMs. Why didn't the IS shorten the minimum range on them? Also, is the timing mechanism on them set in the launcher, or is it set in the factory that makes them? Given how many times depots are raided and nothing is said about the LRMs being reprogrammed, I would think the launchers set the time/range.
If so, why did no one every program it them to explode sooner?
And before the flatter arc of the clan launchers is used, that fact should mean they can't IDF or reach maximum range.
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Karagin
05/17/22 09:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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I have wondered about the LRMs for a while, better ammo should have meant that they could have armed the warheads sooner or with a booster and gotten longer ranges off the existing launchers with the price paid on the ammo side. Logical upgrades and updates to existing tech never seemed to be at the forefront for the powers that be. We had an entire Tactical Handbook and Unbound with systems that should have matured into things. One-Shot Thunderbolts would have been nice to see get more attention. Things that made some sense, instead we got silly junk, that was like someone wanted to mix WH40K crap in. Chainsaws, buzzsaws, Mech Tazers, etc...stuff that didn't belong out on the actual battlefield but on Solaris but wait, the Click-Tech crap was the new thing, it was the new version of the future of the game!
And the only future it gave the game was a further division of the fan base and bad plots and storylines. We should have seen the LRMs get something better than E-LRMs, they had given us plenty of cool warheads, those made sense, yet nothing was done for the launcher itself. We can get hundreds of new mechs, but nothing really amazing done for the tech, Wait, what's that you say? Game Balance would be broken? And yet adding in chainsaw and acid spray and a Tazer for mechs doesn't; mess up the balance? Nail guns don't? "Special Named Character Mechs" don't cause issues? The mech is NO different other than it's being piloted by a character, but yet that translates into special features or abilities for the mech, and then you allow the fans to run these by making the things to go collect.
Oh, but Karagin, we have design quirks and such to balance them out. Right design quirks...let's go back a bit to the Original TRO3025 and the Javelin mech, In the fluff for that mech this is a design quirk right there telling you what hampers it, and the thing is NOBODY used it.
Well, we have Tech Ratings now, so that further balances things, nope sorry it doesn't, all that does is add more confusion and gives the power gamers and rules lawyers the chance to ruin the fun of the game.
Oh, oh...you are just made because of BV2 and how it makes for balanced games and gives the IS numerical advantages...let me cut that off right here, the first thing BV2 is flawed, it can be min-maxed very easily and makes things very lopsided. It favors mechs with big guns to speed up the fighting so you don't have long fights, you have different flavors of gunslingers matches not real battles.
Long before that silly system, I saw IS players regular beat players running Clan tech and not a 2 to 1 mech ratio, but lance on stars, similar weight ranges. Saw players actually know the mechs, knew the weapons ranges, and knew how to use the maps and the terrain to win. Now if it's not favored to one side well folks complain that it's not fair to the Inner Sphere.
The Inner Sphere autocannons, those should have either gotten an overhaul and we see the AC2 and AC5 have their minimums cut down or removed, but no, we didn't we got other ACs and new ammo types that only work in the older autocannons. We have had this chat before, and given how no one can really agree on how each class works, hell we say a poorly written article here on Sarna that claimed Autocaons were artillery weapons, total crap, but it was pushed fandom wide and further muddied the water, how Nic allowed that I don't understand.
At one point the game had a lot that could be done for it, lots of plot lines to follow and run, hell it still has a lot of loose ends to tie up that got left hanging in the 3025 to 3067 timeline, but the second the gears shifted to the WoB/Click-tech timeline it all became something wearing the Battletech name.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 02:13 AM
45.51.181.83
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That still doesn't answer if the ammo, or the launcher decides when the LRMs become hot. I believe it is important, as stated about raiding each others ammo depots. They do the same damage and have the same range. The fluff for the clan launchers is the flatter arc, but what magic trick changes the arming range from the mech?
Yeah. Ac weights were discussed. Granted, I don't know if TPTB got any input or just ignored it all. I can see this boiling down to not logic, but keeping vehicles nerfed. No heat when fired from vehicle argument. If they lessened or removed the heat from mechs, you would see a lot more mechs using ACs. Or put the heat in the vehicles, which would require a whole new data sheet on all of them. Missiles being the same way.
Game balance being broken is harsh, given the Jihad line put out. Naval weapons caused issues, but even with the difficulty in targeting ground targets, it sort of removed facing counter fire when destroying fortresses, as you could hit them from orbit. Which may well be why TPTB didn't want them on dropships. The thought came to me typing this, that warships are not likely to far into players hands, but fitting naval weapons on dropships, which they can get, would cause issues. Do I care that is would take 100 shots to hit a fortress with a spotter? As long as the enemy doesn't send out someone to kill the spotter, no. I will kill the enemy without any chance of return damage. And we know players that would do this constantly. The thought does have me wanting to try.
But then the developers were pushing for imbalance with the story line that kept the SL weapons out of CC hands. They were already hurting from the 4th war, then everyone else, including periphery states and pirates, were getting some upgraded weapons and equipment. But we don't talk about things like that. 
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Requiem
05/18/22 07:07 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Warships are moot points
Really? The largest gun on the battlefield is now a moot point as they do not win wars?
Then what was Palmyra? How many worlds have been lost due to orbital bombardment throughout all the wars?
This is a space opera in which everyone travels on the Black Sea or has everyone forgotten Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves – Then why has the US have such a sizeable Navy – the extrapolation of this logic point should still be considered.
As whomever has the largest Navy wins, it is just that simple! – consider the SLDF Navy why did they have so many vessels if they are just a moot point?
Any build up of forces on any world an the decision is made to sterilize the area!
Quote:
Katherine
Sorry but she is one of the very few who understood in my opinion) what the leavers of power were and how to use them – thus she is one of the few who were ‘actually written’ with a degree of reality.
Yes, I do agree the incident with Vlad was inept. But what else can you expect from the writers of an invasion where the entire story lurches from one inept point to the next.
Quote:
Joshua
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Joshua_Marik
leukemia – suggest looking at today’s survival rates.
So let us now consider what was in the history and was never considered.
Joshua’s ‘father’ was seriously injured during an assassination attempt and was sent to a ComStar hidden medical facility – where he received his cyborg implants. Where as his ‘father’ was replaced with another so as to rule the FWL.
Question – did anyone ever ask ComStar to cure Joshua at this hidden Medical Facility – and if not why didn’t Marik threaten them at this point in time?
Joshua died in 3057 – so can I ask one more simple question – As it is known that the Clans Medical Personnel and Facilities are more advanced than that of the Inner Sphere why was there never a Special Operations by either the FC or the FWL to acquire these from the Clans ie a Medical dropship, Jump-ship etc and thus use Clan Tech to save Joshua or was this just too difficult to consider or implement into the inept story?
Also The Star League Medical Facility owned by Snord’s Irregulars – why didn’t they provide assistance given who Joshua was …
Also Wolf’s Dragoons Jaime Wolf called for the conference on Outreach in 3051 and outed themselves as Clan – what Clan Medical facilities did he have access to – as they also denied to provide to the FWL and Joshua medical aid … and rather than the Dragoons assisting only Hanse offered assistance … If they were so concerned with the safety of the IS why didn’t they assist?
So lets get this straight the entire medial situation is once more incredibly badly written plot lines from beginning to end … that never considers any of the hard questions that should be asked …
Also with the outing of the Fake Marik why didn’t Victor ask the hard questions as to medical facilities etc as to the assassination attempt upon the real – why was this never considered asked and investigated – or didn’t anyone want to even consider this when it came up?
So can I ask why others have not asked these questions?
Quote:
The Clans had warships the IS had warships
Really? Then please do provide details of all warships circa 3050 for the following:
Federated Commonwealth
Draconis Combine
Rasalhague
Quote:
Ares Conventions
Opinion was used – as the game needs something like these conventions in order to keep the game sane otherwise you will always end the game in a Nuclear holocaust or Palmyra.
Quote:
Wolverines
You complain that I do not read the books – then can I please suggest the same from you.
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The use of chemical warfare during the St. Ives reclamation
Such as https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wei and the Death Commandos ?
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… the only reason why the clans warships are a problem is because they hurt the FC …
And here I thought that Turtle Bay was in DC space …
Question – Circa 3050 - 51 did any other House know that ComStar was in the possession of warships?
As if they didn’t then how can this be a factor in the discussion?
Quote:
where did it say she would be voted in for life?
It didn’t, it said, if you read the books, that she was looking for a means of how to accomplish this when she was voted in as First Lord. There were rules, however, she was always looking at how to exploit them for her benefit.
Also it is a lords duty to correct their retainers when they stray.
Quote:
Had her greed to seize power not taken hold the FC would have remained together, making it that much easier to remove the clans from FC space …
Clan Invasion commenced 3050
- October 3050 Leo Showers Killed – Operation Revival Halted – Year of Peace until November 3051
– September 3057 – Katherine uses the Emergency War Powers to secede the Lyran half of the FC.
Thus for the first seven years of the Clan Invasion, including the year of peace, this statement is how relevant? Ans - not at all and is of no relevance whatsoever.
Quote:
Victor made mistakes, but that isn’t what destroyed the FC. It was Katherine and her grab for power
Sorry to burst you bubble but in reality it was Victor’s incompetence – if he wasn’t incompetent there would not have been a reason for Katherine to assume control…
Quote:
command circuit
How long does it take to establish? This is the questin that should be asked …
Quote:
Phelan being interrogated
Have you read how the Gestapo in Paris used their interrogations? Or how about the NKVD in Russia?
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Wolfnet … they were better than the IS networks
Once again read betrayal of ideals as to the creation of Wolfnet.
Also there are two types of spies when it comes to this – those within Wolf’s Dragoons and those in Clan Wolf – and this in Clan Wolf were practically useless when it came to infiltration …
Quote:
They would not allow freeborn to run loose
True, letting slaves run loose is a little strange.
Question – how can there be a treaty violation if you never signed the treaty to begin with?
Also have a read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/18/22 07:09 AM)
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ghostrider
05/18/22 11:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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Palmyra was NOT a clan use of dropships, though the initial statement made it sound like it was. So again, the clans only used orbital bombardment once.
The navy was large as it was the only way to get from one continent to another. If dropships were available to us, then the wet navy would drop dramatically. Air force would be what rules combat, though you still need infantry to secure areas.
More leaders then Katherine knew how to use politics. Katherine was just one of those that used it to punish others to soothe her ego. If nothing else, she was an agent of Amaris, but slowly strangling freedoms of others to increase her personal ego and power.
Survival rate report does NOT include the stress of jumping thru Hyperspace.
Now for someone to ask Comstar about hidden facilities, they would have to KNOW about them, so that is answered.
WOB knew about them, and since they held Terra, should have done something. They didn't.
As Joshua was the fake Thomas's son, WOB had a vested interest to letting the boy suffer from his disease. It was a collar to make sure the fake Thomas stayed on target. Isis, being the child of the real Thomas, should have inherited the throne, which brings up a point on why Victor should have exposed the fake Thomas. He was NOT a Marik, so the ruling line would have been changed. Remember this when barking about Adam.
One question about clan medical ships. Did they even have one? I think the only bays they used might have remain from when they upgraded regular ships, like the Overlord. I have not even heard of a reference to a medical ship.
Oh? So not specifying when in the time line, there are issues? The IS had warships before the 2nd war ended, and after the truce started with the invasion.
The reason why the SL had so many warships was the size of area they were covering. They also were the prime protection force for the IS.
Do you think some paper will stop the use of things like bombardments? No one to enforce punishment on others, so no. A piece of paper will not stop it. This has been explained before. To punish those using them normally means using them to take out the guilty. The succession wars have done little to coming close to removing leaders, so how do you punish a violator? Since the SL fell, they have all been trying to punish each other. Ganging up on the violator? Do you really think one house is going to allow a hostile neighbor to send a large force thru their terrority in order to attack a violator?
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ghostrider
05/18/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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Did Comstar aid the clans in their invasion? Would Comstar have used their warships to hinder the IS? Most of the IS didn't know Comstar had mechs until the start of the 4th war, and even then, it was only a small few. That information wasn't even passed on to the leaders of the realms. So it is likely some knew, just not the masses. Hard to hide a fleet of ships like that.
When was Katherine voted in to the First Lord position?
Oh yeah. More alt put up as canon fact.
So what was all that maneuvering done to start pushing the separation of the FC? Oh yeah. She was manipulating things to create incidences that made Victor look bad, including assassinating her mother, and blaming Victor for it. Yeah. Nothing to see here..
Anything someone disagrees with can be made into a reason for revolt. Some are just more forceful then others.
And yet, didn't Kathrine participate in attack the LA once Vlad took her? Not just behind the scenes taking out the nation that borne her, but actually fighting them?
It isn't instant. A command circuit needs to have the ships in position and charged to work. And most commercial jumpship captains will not sit around waiting, as it cuts into their ability to make money.
Again, the interrogation methods used by the clans were printed. There was no need to rip out finger nails and such. It was more effective then the pain method. So the statement of old methods is invalid.
The point is ALL of the spies came from the clans. For Wolfnet to be better then the IS spies, shows something is completely off with the clans lack of skills in that area. Or did Wolf's Dragoons get their spies from elsewhere? Wolfnet was up and running before the Dragoons entered the IS. So given the idea that only parts of the route were given to ships as they traveld the Exodus Road, that would mean they would have been sent long before the Dragoons were sent. They operated in all nations, not just the FS.
The concept that a single trueborn could prevent the freeborns from running seemed to be the solution. Natasha Kerensky was the only trueborn to go with the Dragoons. Yet there is no way to stop all defections. Technically Snord and his group was a defection even before the Recall order was given.
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Karagin
05/18/22 12:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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Palmyra? Are we talking about the 3144 Dark Age silliness and somehow having it mixed up for a different event? I can find no other planet or reference to this for any Clan action. Is this another one of his Alts?
Katherine thought it was all a game, where your side was good, and everyone else was bad. She didn't understand the leaves of the game and thus while she could play, it wasn't on the same level as the others.
The real Thomas Marik didn't care about his kids, he was too far gone into revenge and madness for that. The fake Thomas Marik was more of a father and ruler. Now Victor could have exposed things, but again recall Victor was worried about the Clans NOT Marik. WoB had their puppet anything would have been over playing their hand. They weren't about to help Joshua unless it was a boon for them or they needed a card played.
The Clan medical system has not been fully explained as far as battlefield use. Vague would be the best offering.
The Houses had warships after the 2nd War ended, yes, however, it was harder to keep them in repair, the cost of manning them was not something they wanted to deal with and the loss of any remaining ones took said warship as a defensive system out of the picture and that means they would not risk what few remained. Also, there were plenty of wreaks in different systems that would have been always a salvagers' wet dream to go over looking for something to sell.
This idea of his that a treaty is going to be enforced during a war if it's going hamper one side's ability to win is insane. Treaties are products of peace, they are mainly to make it look like the politicians are doing something vs their normal nothing. The Houses threw the rules out the window and then went and got them when they need a moral victory to make it look like they lost a battle because oh look those evil Kuritians used an evil nuke or those evil Fed-rats used an assassination team to kill our leader...then the treaties are used to justify what ever the upset House leader does. So the Ares Treaty only sounds good on paper is ignored by the Houses. Mercs will honor it because their men and machines are accountable items not expendable items. Not sure why you can't accept that the Ares Treaty is non-item and has been since it was written.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 01:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. Palmyra came up while talking about the clans use of bombardments during the invasion. More out of time things to suggest that warships were the great evil. The issue looks to be that they were evil because his favorite nation didn't have them, so they didn't conquer all immediately.
It is correct Victor was more worried about the clans. The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas, would have been to show the entire IS that the FWL was already being taken over by an imposter, removing a chunk of the motives for the war created by Joshua's passing. Yes, I do understand that a civil war in the FWL would have been horrible for the IS defense as all refits would stop flowing from the FWL.
The exposure would have also shown Katherine in a bad light as well, since she would have been seen supporting the imposter trying to take over the FWL. WOB would have been brought into the spotlight with this as well, since someone with the power, had to be helping the fake take the throne.
In the end, it probably would have caused the IS to lose even more systems, until Comstar got it's crap right.
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Requiem
05/18/22 06:29 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Survival rate report does NOT include the stress of jumping thru Hyperspace.
Now for someone to ask Comstar about hidden facilities, they would have to KNOW about them, so that is answered.
WOB knew about them, and since they held Terra, should have done something. They didn't.
As Joshua was the fake Thomas's son, WOB had a vested interest to letting the boy suffer from his disease. It was a collar to make sure the fake Thomas stayed on target. Isis, being the child of the real Thomas, should have inherited the throne, which brings up a point on why Victor should have exposed the fake Thomas. He was NOT a Marik, so the ruling line would have been changed. Remember this when barking about Adam.
One question about clan medical ships. Did they even have one? I think the only bays they used might have remain from when they upgraded regular ships, like the Overlord. I have not even heard of a reference to a medical ship.
1. Joshua was jumping between stars in 3051 (died 3057) thus jumping between the stars was acceptable circa 3051 and 3052 when WOB entered the FWL.
2. Both his real Father and his Fake Father both knew about the hidden ComStar Facility – thus as you put it “so that is answered” – is no longer valid.
3. WOB did not exist until 3052 – thus how can they be of any relevance pre this date – and as for stating it is to make sure the fake Thomas stays on target – this only works if you suggest if he is a good boy will give your son Joshua the cure.
Also WOB has control of this Medical Facility as how else do you explain how their shadow military received their Cyborg implants? (as the Real Thomas also has Cyborg Implants)
Also WOB is being sheltered by Thomas in the FWL – and are receiving money to keep them afloat (which we find out later is at 15%) – thus a little quid pro quo would have gone along way here – I shelter you, give you money now fix my son!
4. This is a war zone thus the idea that there are no clan medial ships becomes ludicrous – and the idea that they were never considered demonstrates ineptitude beyond the pale – or are all injured clan warriors, who can no longer fight, just killed off as a mercy killing at this stage?
Also what about Snord and also Wolf’s Dragoons?
Thus can we please think this through using logic?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/18/22 06:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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Okay on the Palmyra thing, I get it now. Warships are a tool, in reality, they are a force projection and resource hog, on the battlefield (space or ground) they have limited use, either they are bashing in their counterparts just like mechs do, or they are artillery on a grander scale. Then they have the added bonus of being a deterrent to fighting. Oh, you pushed us off the planet, okay cool. You know that factory you fought to keep us from, gone...oh you are willing to surrender now versus us using an orbital bombardment on it, okay even better.
Now, where have I seen that used in the game and other science fiction writing? Oh, that's right it has been done that in many settings. Guess being widely read and having an understanding of how weapons systems/units would and could be used helps as well.
All Victor got by exposing the fake Thomas was an FWL Civil War, and a lessening of anything Sunny tried to do. It would mean he couldn't go after the St. Ives compact as easily. And it would put a lot of those Houses into major panic mode since wait could ComStar/WoB have done this in their own family as well? That would have been the bigger blow-up and it could be suggested that Katherine was an imposter given how she was acting contrary to the expectations of the Steiner-Davion bloodline should be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 08:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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I mean, yeah. We went for a cross country trip, but how were we supposed to know he would be worse in the future, when we tried again?
Does that sound about right?
What happens to people as a disease like that progresses? OH yeah. They can't do things they did before. But since you don't play a doctor on TV, you don't know about this.
Both knew, and yet what happened? They were turned down. Did he raise a stink about it? No, as that would show the rest of the IS, Comstar and WOB had hidden worlds. So no. People didn't know about it. As a side note, it is amazing that no one ran blood work against the fake and his son. This would have told everyone of the fake. Comstar knew about the fake Thomas, as they had the real one still in their care.
Actually, yes. WOB had better medical facilities then New Avalon had. They had better medical tech as well.
The clans have the win or die attitude. Why have medical bays when this is about all the know? So they would not have medical ships. Medbays in existing ships would probably still be there, but not improved tech.
What logic? The fake, not understanding the clans in canon logic? The one pushed so hard by someone who stated they did not understand it? Or the fact that the clans sent in units that were frowned upon from early in their inception, was better then the IS, including ROM? The clans thought a single trueborn would prevent the entire Dragoons from bolting as soon as they got into the IS. The fact that Snord did leave the Dragoons shortly after entering the IS shows that Natasha couldn't keep them all in line. Snord was running intel operations that beat out the best IS spy agencies. Something is wrong with this picture.
So yeah. What logic is going to be used? The one that runs with the canon story? Or the one that has done whatever it could to twist the entire canon story to fit their vision?
Do you see why most go with canon?
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ghostrider
05/18/22 09:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Wow. You mean someone didn't assassinate Katherine the moment she tried to break up the FC? That happens in my alt, so therefore it must be how things have to go.
The fact that Katherine assassinated her mother in the story line should have been enough to remove her from the throne, as it was killing the one effective ruler right after Hanse died. The one person that would have prevented Victor from making those mistakes, as well as teaching him how to avoid them entirely. So oooops. Katherine destroyed the entire FCs future with this one action, then continued to make sure it couldn't recover by the rest of her actions.
The fact that the entire history since including the fall of the SL had warships bombarding worlds. They were required to protect convoys as well as fight the enemy. Except for one commander, the clans tended to stop using warships in a fight after the enemy's space forces were defeated. The history suggested they tended to avoid the warship battles as well. They were used as a psycological safety blanket.
So with the last use of warships recorded being the time they tried to wipe out the Wolverines, until Turtle Bay, they used them far less then the IS did.
There are a few more things that could have happened with exposing Thomas. The fact he had to have powerful people backing up his taking over would come to light. Wether it lead to answers or not is the big question there. Given the fact Max Liao had done so before hand, would really set off a major panic wave. One outcome could have ended with the IS falling, as everyone tried to rise up to fill in the gaps by the imposters. Another would have had Comstar answer for assisting the clans, as their duplicity would come out.
There is a whole line of other things in between that could have happened.
But as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
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Karagin
05/18/22 09:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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First, the fake Thomas, was not really playing the game ComStar or WoB wanted to be played, not after the Clans showed up, and with improvements to the FWL economy from the weapons deals, etc...yeah was doing ten times better than the "real" Mariks had done in close to 100 years. So anyone trying to prove anything would have been stopped first by SAFE and then by ROM (both of them), now why they didn't stop Jousha's trip to New Avalon well, I am willing to bet that wrinkle wasn't something ComStar could stop since it would have tipped their hand. After the Schism, well WoB could have tried, and it would have been smarter for them, but wait we know that prior to their sudden out of now where Sith-like ability to do things, they had no real support beyond their "Thomas" and needed him, so hurting Jousha, well that would be bad for them.
We know the Clans have medical sections, they told Focht they could have regrown his eye if they had been there when it happened, that's pretty advanced, and oh look we never see anything about it mentioned again. Another dropped plot idea or story point.
The Dragoons broke ties way before their orders changed, they had already seen that there was hope in the Inner Sphere and that things weren't as bad as they had been led to believe. Natasha had found love with Jamie's brother Jousha and they had their future plans. So the Dragoons bolting I think was kind of planned from the start. Snord just being one crack and then the armor while still good had other kinks. Once the Clan Wolf Khan Ward told the Dragoons NOT to report back and to start prepping for an attack, Natasha made up her mind that she would go back to make sure the Dragoons weren't wiped out genetically, too bad the current take with Alric is that he doesn't know the facts himself.
As I said before the risk of imposters would cause a lot of issues, and it would also be the perfect chance for WoB among others, to cause the chaos that would have allowed their stunt of taking over the Inner Sphere to work better. And Katherine should have been arrested for Treason the second she pulled her coup with the LC side of the Fed-Com, but that would have been a boring story, and then no massive sales of TROs and novels, can't have that.
Yes all guesses, based on what we know and can see, no alts, just ideas, that lend to a discussion on things and give us a chance to see the events from all angles, kind of like how it should be, we should see the events from all sides.
What if-ing and speculating as to what could have happened is fun, and the whole point is to use the canon to prove how the change could happen, not just rewrite it just because. Here is crappy way of rewriting things in 2766 while Jerome Blake was on holiday, a hit squad sent by Amaris murdered him and his family while making it look like an accident with the gas line at their holiday home.
Or even crappier...in 2766 Blake slipped on a bar of body soap in the refresher, falling, breaking his neck, thus ComStar is never founded, not like we know it, and their no neutral group to save Terra after the SLDF leaves etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 11:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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To suggest WOB only sprung up after the declaration of moving beyond the religious facade is like saying Katherine only decided to destroy her brother when he refused to give her some avocado toast. They were set up long before hand, just looking for a reason to revolt. Guessing they didn't like Walterly's actions with the clans before that.
I could see them thinking the clans would destroy their ability to remold the IS to the WOBbies vision.
It was not said the clans did not have highly advanced medical facilities on the home worlds, it was said that they did not seem to have medical ships. Last I knew of, all major cases had to be sent to the home worlds.
One of the clan elementals in the books had his leg regrown after it was shot off when using his armor. He was on the home worlds as it regrew.
More possibilities. General Kerensky gets bad intel, and has Blake shot for being a periphery or house spy.
Amaris is killed by security as he enters the TH.
Someone takes out Richard before he becomes first lord, or a real accident happens.
The houses rejects the SL proposition and all attack fearing the TH will eventually attack them.
One potential thing with Alric is his mother may well have lied to him about the past, to try and control him. This might be why he is screwed up in a few ways.
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Karagin
05/19/22 01:28 AM
70.118.172.64
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Alric is a screwed-up, homicidal genius who, then again most conquerers are. And pretty sure his daddy's issues with Phelan and Warden cause didn't help either.
WoB's ideas/ideals were there all along, the part I am saying is a bit rushed and tossed in without a lot of thought was their massive building up in only two decades, and the idea that they had hidden worlds and all that sounds more like a cop-out excuse to do hand waveium vs real storytelling. Sure they could have a sect or two that had plans to take over if they got the chance, but poof, hand waved, the coconuts move, but the object never did, but the moving of the coconuts allowed the writers to slide in all the insane and then if you question it, well you are the one is wrong because they are the writers and TPTB. Yet as we are pointing out to our young friend, the canon didn't support the WoB pulling a Sith Restoration ala Dark Empire or ROS, and doing so made the rest of the factions in the game look like idiots. Yes hints got dropped of double dealings and internal issues with ComStar in Spider and the Wolf, and they got mentioned a few more times, but for the systems to be in place you need more the two decades to pull it off. And yes I know the current tall tale, they (WoB and the crazy sects) had the support of the Terran nobles/leaders/business groups, etc...same groups we are told that support Amaris, and Cameron. And somehow that means it's okay, that allowed it to happen because they supported it. That's like saying the Fed-Suns should have conquered the Cap-Con, because, with the expectation of two nobles, Hanses had all the others in his back pocket. Or does one need all of them to pull things off?
Now the Clan Medtech, I would say the warships have med-bays, and some might have full medical facilities to treat the badly injured. Same for dropships, however, it's another area that was glossed over. Sometimes I forget that many of the writers aren't that up to speed on military things, and one thing that has been a big deal with modern militaries is triage and all that. Kind of the like the logistical footprint for the Clans would be huge, given that it's normal four support to one front line soldier, but wait, what am I thinking it's the 31st century, things won't be the same, cause you know advances in material sciences, etc...yet you still need folks to fix the broken stuff, you still need food techs, you still fuel/ammo support, and you still need medical support, etc...so the footprint should be as big or bigger. Again the dangerous FASAlogic comes into play and allows for all.
And before anyone screams but Karagin, this isn't a hard sci-fi game...go look at Aerotech, simple it's not, it;s got more in common with Traveller and the Expanse for hard science that a simple move your fighters around and shot the other guy. Vectors and thrusts and spins, etc...oh sorry Cray didn't mean to rain your book. Sorry. Back on to my point, the game can have the hard science and the sci-fi science in the stories, mix the two together, have fun with it, and allow some crazy moments, hell we saw Leia fly in space with no space suit, and no training wannabe somehow become better than ALL that came before. The stories should be entering but not set up like a WWF/WWE match for timing.
As I have said the BT universe has a lot going for it, but it's as if the drive for fun has gone out of it and it's all about the next product regardless of the need for the next thing. We have a lot of things that could be set in the years running up to the 4th War, stuff that we have read about or seen mentioned in another sourcebook or TRO, yet it could be the fodder for a whole book and give us more insights into things and deal with forgotten plot threads and such.
One thing Katherine, more of the nobles who chaffed at both Steiner and Davion's rule of the LC should have used the Civil War to do their own thing, odd we didn't see that happen much.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 03:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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I agree that there is no real way WOB could have built up all those forces in the short time between taking Terra, and the Jihad.
I do think their advance tech is a bit much as well. And the fact Comstar had no clue on any of it, is a bit more far fetched.
From the looks of it, WOB had pumped out more mechs then the SL did in their heyday, and some how got well trained pilots to fill them. This had to come from outside of WOB, which sounds counter productive, as you would think some would be spied or just run off with the new hardware.
The resources alone, would have drawn attention. But then the issue of what resources are in each system that was producing beyond the entire IS combined, wasn't posted.
The game has a few issues with rules, and continuity of them. This is not the end all. It can be played without much effort though some would probably need to be tossed or modified. The story leaves a lot to be desired.
Having played Aerotech, the gravity well makes is almost impossible to fight near a world. At 5000 meters wide hexes, I seriously doubt a warship could bombard a planet, as they could not produce enough thrust to keep it from falling into the atmosphere. The speeds some fighters would be going at, also throws them outside of the map quickly.
I can see the change from having fun making the game to having to produce more content to pay for habits formed isn't something new. Most people that make a lot of money, tend to spend it almost as fast, and don't save much. So when the flow slows, they panic, as they might have to give something up, in order to survive.
I hadn't really thought about the nobles going off on their own thing. But I very much agree, there would be crap going down. Nobles that hate each other, would definitely strike out at each other, with companies doing the same thing. Remove competition or just someone they hate. Even attacks outside of the FC would seem to be common. I could also see attacks from outside the FC be more severe then what they were. I can see a few FWL areas strike the LC, while the TC and others hit the FS.
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Requiem
05/19/22 08:12 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Palmyra was NOT a clan use of dropships … So not specifying when in the time line, there are issues … IS warships
First advised should only be using Clan specifics … then advised that we do not have to use Clan specifics ….
Can we, therefore, return to the original question at hand and when it related to the Clan Invasion circa 3050 / 51?
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Katherine Politics
Machiavellianism - https://blenheimpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/15-Lessons-from-Machiavelli1.pdf
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Do you think some paper will stop the use of things like bombardments?
List of current arms control treaties: https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/treaties/index.html
If they are so useless then why go the trouble of creating them?
Quote:
Most of the IS didn’t know ComStar had Mechs until the start of the 4th War, and even then, it was only a small few …
3029: FS interdicted by ComStar.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Interdiction#The_Exclusion_of_the_Federated_Suns
20 Year Update: Page 67 – “Comstar has surprised the Inner sphere by fielding units with total ‘Mech strength exceeding 35 regiments … stationed on populous worlds … stations on sparsely populated worlds … designs not seen since the fall of the Star League.
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So it is likely some knew, just not the masses.
Problem is when they are stationed on your capital world and they are Star League vintage mechs – the media is going to sensationalize it to the point that everyone is going to know.
Quote:
Hard to hide a fleet of ships like that
Problem is how many hidden worlds are there to every known world within the volume of the Inner Sphere?
Making the ability, therefore, to hide even a vast warship fleet [is completed] with extreme ease.
Quote:
When was Katherine voted into the First Lord Position?
Comprehension of reading – Katherine was “planning for” the day when she would be First Lord – thus she was investigating how, in her mind, once this eventuated she could stage a coup to remain as First Lord in perpetuity …
Quote:
… create incidents that make Victor look bad.
Victor’s complete and utter ineptitude created these incidents … it is not as if she had to try very hard.
Also if a leader is inept they will bring the realm down with them, thus it is in the best interests of the realm that a mercy killing is performed on the inept leader.
Also, as a plot twist by TPTB, assassinating her mother was completely pointless (and in incredibly bad taste) – she only had to remove Victor!
Quote:
Katherine and Vlad
February 3058 – Katherine and Vlad conclude a secret alliance.
October 3058 – First Whitting Conference – resurrection of the Star League
May 3059 – Operation Bulldog / Task Force Serpent
February 3060 – Battle of Huntress
April 3060 – Great Refusal
March 3061 – Victor returns from Clan Space.
November 3062 – Fed Com Civil War Starts
In the cannon setting please provide, when there was an opportunity by the Lyrans to commence an assault upon the Wolfs.
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Command circuit
Yes we all know what it is – the question is how long does it take to establish?
As for the captains – if they don’t want their ship seized then they will do as they are told!
Quote:
So given the idea that only parts of the route were given … they operated in all nations, not just the FS.
Pre introduction of Wolf’s Dragoons there were no Clansmen within the IS. This was the whole idea that the Clans would evolve separately from the IS – there would never be a force sent to the IS as no one was allowed to put the road back together.
Quote:
Technically Snord and his group was a defection even before the Recall order was given …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolf%27s_Dragoons#Outreach
Then why when Snord’s unit was chosen to conduct a planetary survey of Outreach did they keep the Star League Industrial Complex secret from the FC whist at the same time provide a true report with the location of the Star League Facility to Jamie Wolf?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Snord%27s_Irregulars#Clan_Invasion
Then why did Wolf’s Dragoons relay the recall order from the Clan Council to Snord’s Irregulars if they had already defected?
Technically they were still Clan as well as Wwolf’s Dragoons reconnaissance unit for Star League Artifacts etc. until they decided to remain within the IS.
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The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas …
Quote:
… it could be suggested that Katherine was an imposter given how she was acting contrary to the expectations of the Steiner-Davion bloodline should be.
“Oh year. More alt put up as canon fact”
Quote:
The Clans have the win or die attitude …
Except for the fact that you can undergo a trial of possession (batchall) for their medial facility.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession
– 1st Knights of the Inner Sphere could have been sent to the front lines – “With what forces do you defend this medical facility, its personnel and all its medicines etc – i.e. everything and everyone working within it …
Really how hard is this?
Also – have you ever seen a military Medbay on a Hospital ship that does not have all the improved tech – what happens if an arm is ripped off … do we just send the warrior back to Clan Space for a more advanced medical treatment?
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what logic?
Still did not answer all the questions in a rational format to explain what is occurring!
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The fact that Katherine assassinated her mother in the story line should have been enough to remove her from the throne
Can you prove that she did, with incontrovertible proof, in front of a jury of her pears that she did this heinous act?
The answer is no, you cannot – even the so-called evidence that Victor obtained would never hold up in court.
Then when Victor just gave her away to the clans how would many see this?
The answer is not in a positive light.
Quote:
Katherine destroyed the entire FCs future with this one action
Sorry but it was Victor not Katherine’s actions that brought the FC low – all the way from when he put a double in … all the way through to when he declared war upon his sister.
Victor is one of the most incompetent rulers to ever have existed, as he refused to rule as a ruler upon the Capitol world – he just slinked off to play Commanding Officer of a military unit …
All the folies that brought the FC low can be placed at Victor’s feet.
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There are a few more things that could have happened with exposing Thomas … Bust as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
“Oh year. More alt put up as canon fact”
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we should see the events from all sides
Except for when I make a suggestion?
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The story leaves a lot to be desired.
Really?
Quote:
Nobles that hate each other, would definitely strike out at each other …
There are a number of positive stories within the DC that are interesting when it comes to grabbing power …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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As we were talking about the use of clan warships in the invasion, someone said Palmyra was yet another use of clan warships in a bombardment role. Do you know who it was that did this?
3029 was the end of the 4th war, not the start. Only the few people the broke into the storage facility during the wedding knew about them. So again, read what is written and the context provided.
So it is likely some knew, just not the masses. Hard to hide a fleet of ships like that.
So that last sentence should have referred to warships. With that, they did not station warships at the houses capitals.
The statement and conversation was about what happened with the first lord position. Your statemen basically said she was elected and was planning on keeping it by violating the laws made to keep that from happening.
if you read the books, that she was looking for a means of how to accomplish this when she was voted in as First Lord.
This statement sounds like she had been voted in. Given the past context of things like Palmyra being a clan warship bombardment during the clan invasion, and the lose of lands for the Wolves, Falcons, and Bears, it is taken as she was already in office.
To remove Victor, Katherine assassinated her mother to keep Victor from learning how to deal with things in something other then straight on. Melissa was keeping the FC together and away from Katherine. By assassinating Melissa, she also gave the rise to Victor killing Melissa concept, since the masses did not know Victor could have been ruler years before he became ruler. If understanding this is so difficult, then get out of all canon threads, as you have to understand canon to talk about it. The alt is only known by you, so others don't have the back ground information to show the flaws in it as well as canon's flaws.
The LA could have started hitting worlds, which the Wolves had some in the LA, at any time. It would not have been the size of the 4th war, but still could have been done.
As for the captains – if they don’t want their ship seized then they will do as they are told!
Shows a lack of understanding on how things go. Nations that project law and order, not dictatorship, do not just seize vessels like this. They hire them for doing a job. If the owners decide to decline it, then the nation finds another company to do so. During active wars, they are able to take temporary control. They do not keep the properties afterwards. This is why companies build in nations that don't just seize their properties.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 12:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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Reread the proposition to sending the Dragoons into the IS. There were several other fact finding missions sent into the IS. The Dragoons were only the largest of them. So this statement: Pre introduction of Wolf’s Dragoons there were no Clansmen within the IS. is incorrect. During the debate to invade, the information of other forays comes to light. The fact that the khans prevented the information reaching the masses means the corrupt ways of the IS were not distributed.
The route not being given out was discussed before as the earlier scouts would have had to do the segments, or the concept of it fails.
Snord had already turned his back on the clan leadership, he did not give up on Jamie. As the recall affected all those that went into the IS, it was a curtesy to see if any of those that came from the clans wanted to return. Just because they are part of Snord's group, does not mean they were against the clans entirely. Otherwise the concept of spies and insurrection in units would never be possible.
The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas, would have been to show the entire IS that the FWL was already being taken over by an imposter, removing a chunk of the motives for the war created by Joshua's passing.
The statement shows it was speculation, not a statement of fact.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 01:06 PM
45.51.181.83
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The wording, it could be. That does not sound like making a statement, but suggesting something that wasn't done. Hmmm. Sounds like someone doesn't comprehend context of sentences as much as they would like.
There would be no need to challenge for a medical facilities on Huntress. The IS won against the Jaguars, and they did not do a scorched earth policy for things beyond their manufacturing facilities.
Not sure how this got away from the simple statement of the clans don't seem to have medical ships. It does not say medical facilities, is says ships.
They stablize the patient and send them homeward. As they did with the elemental leader that was hurt on Tukkyid. This is done only if the subject is deemed worthy to even undergo such an operation. Most are just stitched up and left without the limb.
Most of the conversations explain things has been done with some rational data, yet is constantly refused or ignored by someone pushing an alt. What Logic was put up since reading the actual print has explained it all to most people on the board. Only one seems to have issues with it.
Again. The evidence against Katherine killing her mother was shown to those that would have tried to argue the results. It must have been good, as they did not even try to raise a stink in the media. The fact is Katherine killed her mother to hurt Victor, and remove the best effective leader of that time is just that. Fact. Throwing the FC into turmoil while the clans still loomed, shows a horrible decision making process.
Get your facts straight. Victor did not put in the double. It was already going on from Hanse putting them in place. He just left the operation continue. Fact two. Melissa was running the FC when Katherine struck. There were no decisions that Victor made that could be used against him as he was not in charge. Ooooops. Time line strikes again.
Could have happened strikes again. That did not say did happen. It shows speculation.
And why is the quote wrong?
Original statement: But as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
The quote: Bust as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
Is the quote program having issues? It appears someone has been editing the quotes otherwise. The s in but , making it bust seems off.
It goes from a suggestion to a demand when terms like only viable solution, has to be, and such are added in, wether during the initial statement or when questioned. Also, when they don't follow the situation, the suggestion falls into other categories. Things like the clans should be stripped of their warships because the IS doesn't have any come to mind. Nukes should be removed from the game entirely, yet without them, the game would not work at all. Now when suggesting the alt can do so, but don't try to demand the entire game be written to your standards is the issue.
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Requiem
05/19/22 06:34 PM
101.185.82.214
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Palmyra
Semantics - Suggest returning to the original question – regarding orbital bombardment that did not contain a time specific requirement.
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3029
Suggest re-reading the two Canon resources as noted above.
As they clearly demonstrate that debut of the ComGuards to the IS – all 35 Regiments – and upon Capitol Worlds – post FS Interdiction by ComStar.
Thus it is quite clear that the masses knew .
As for the fleet of ships – given the shear volume of space it would be like trying to find one atom in the entire Terran Solar System.
With the introduction of Star League era Mechs all houses could only hypothesize as o the veracity that the ComGuard also has warships as they were never placed on display as were the ComGuard Star League era Mechs.
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Your statement basically said she was elected
Comprehension of what was written requires revising! It was clear she was planning for future expectations …
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Katherine assassinated her mother to keep Victor from learning how to deal with things!
Sorry, if this is to be considered a reason to kill then the plot has just become so ludicrous that it is a wonder the writers were allowed to maintain their positions, as the story has now returned to the 1800’s and that of boys own adventure books – where reality and logic have left the building …
How vast would her entourage be, and how many P.A.s would have the same if not more knowledge and expertise that Victor or Katherine can utilize?
If Victor was so gung-ho in understanding how to rule, then he should have been posted first to his Father’s Command and then as part of his Mother’s entourage rather than swanning about as a unit commander in a Mech cockpit.
If Melissa had any inkling as to Katherine’s motives, wouldn’t she have politically and socially sidelined her?
If Katherine’s aim is to rule – there is only one person who needs to die – Victor!
What is written in canon is perhaps one of the most inept story lines ever created¸ it is just that badly thought through and written as a plot device.
As if Victor was offered the throne years before – then with his death how long will it take before the throne is also offered to her?
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The LA could have started hitting worlds the Wolves had
So what about the Falcons?
First you have to go through their space to reach the Wolves then you have to anticipate their reaction to the LA attacking the wolves and the at the same if the LA decided to attack the Falcons – what would the Wolves do?
So unless you’re the heir to the kingdom of fools you do attack one Clan as you first have to understand what the other will do.
Also in attacking you would require at least a three to one in favour of the LA in Units (military superiority – given technology differences) to even consider this having any possibility for success – then you also need an appropriate CO who can command such a vast horde in the attack – both of which the LA was lacking.
So no there really isn’t any favourable situation in this time frame to attack.
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shows a lack of understanding on how things go.
A command circuit is only called for in the most dire of emergencies – thus making its requirement on the same level as that of state security at the highest of levels.
Thus due to the emergency, yes they will do as they are told!
Any captain seen violating a state emergency at this height will be lucky if they only take away their ship.
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Re-read the proposition to sending the Dragoons into the IS
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf#The_Dragoon_Compromise
“The Clans were blind as to what was going on in the Inner Sphere and an early effort known as Intelstar brought back fragmented rumours from the Periphery.”
Proposed invasion vote led to the Dragoon Compromise – 3004 were good to go - where all of their intelligence was provided from – that “vastly contradicted their preconceived notions of the state of the Inner Sphere – until they stopped all together.”
“With their SOLE SOURCE on the Inner spere’s current situation gone and unable to agree on a replacement, the Clans were left with only hearsay.”
ComStar Explorer Corps – Outbound Light appeared above Huntress in 3048.
The only other mission was Intelstar – and it only went to the Periphery (NOT into the IS) and only obtained fragmented (Useless) information.
The Pre introduction statement regarding Wolf’s Dragoons – there were no clansmen within the IS – is completely and factually correct.
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Snord’s Irregulars
Still doesn’t change the fact they were the lackies of Wolf’s Dragoons.
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The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas
Would destabilize the establishment of the 2nd Star League and the idea of united SLDF (or currently a NATO alliance)
Only a complete political fool would cross that line, given what is at stake.
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The wording, it could be. That does not sound like making a statement, but suggesting something that wasn't done.
Translation please.
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There would be no need to challenge for a medical facilities on Huntress.
Yes this is absolutely correct as Joshua died 20 May 3057 and Task Force Serpent began their invasion 19 February 3060 – nearly three years later.
So can the Clans now bring Joshua back from the dead?
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Medic …. Medic …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_of_Tukayyid_(3052)
Where is the refence to medical treatment?
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Logic was put up since reading the actual print has explained it all to most people on the board.
So where is this board?
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The evidence against Katherine killing her mother was shown to those that would have tried to argue the results.
Victor has just exiled his own sister to the clans and you are presented with a document as to her guilt – to which was never allowed to go before a court or was ever allowed in the media – can you with good conscious believe such a report is truthful as it requires a 3rd Party Investigation to prove the veracity of the evidence … and yet this was never completed ….
Thus the probability this “so called” evidence is true is highly unreliable.
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Get your facts straight Victor did not put in the double
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_GEMINI
“When Joshua died in 3057, Hanse's son Victor Steiner-Davion activated the contingency plan, replacing Joshua with a lookalike”
Even canon agrees with me – Victor DID put in the double.
Ooooops. Time line strikes again.
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Things like the clans should be stripped of their warships because the IS doesn't have any come to mind.
And where did I write this?
What I said was if the Clans have Warships, then the IS must have an effective counter measure.
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Nukes should be removed from the game entirely, yet without them, the game would not work at all.
Please remind me – did the initial box set and rules there-in have anything that related to the use of Nuclear weapons?
Simple answer no they did not – it was not until way in the future was the call made to include nukes in the game – that said the game works perfectly fine WITHOUT the need for nuclear weapons …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 07:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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Ah, but they did contain the limiting statement of CLAN BOMBARDMENT. So inclusion of DC bombardment in the future and making it sound like it was another clan one is the point.
if you are not going to read the entire statement before a response, don't bother with the response. During the wedding of Hanse, only a small few outside Comstar knew of the mechs they had stored. Once they started deploying, then everyone knew. And even with this, Comstar did not deploy their warships, especially over nation capitals.
Yeah. Katherine already had dreams of wiping out all the other leaders, becoming the sole leader of the IS. But nothing was stated during the sentence that stated this.
So get over it. Katherine was already trying to rid the FC of Victor BEFORE he became Archon Prince. Melissa was running the FC after Hanse died. So what events did Victor screw up before Katherine killed Melissa? What choices did Victor decide before this? Katherine moved to remove him before he gained the title. So who started the downfall of the FC? Use logic, not your comprehensive abilities, as they have proven wrong in the past. Katherine started the who thing before Victor could even make any of the decisions as archon prince.
What you saying is it was the fire departments fault the building burned down. Not what caused the fire, but who responded to try and stop it.
Melissa would have seen Katherines issues, and stopped her from inheriting the throne. Katherine wanted Victor humiliated before being destroyed. And if Victor would have been killed, Katherine was the first person that would be looked at.
Again with the inaccurate statements. You do not have to go thru the Falcons to hit the Wolves. The Wolves had the issue as they could not strike below the truce line. That meant having to go thru the Falcons. The IS could use FRR worlds, if they didn't have an FC world close enough to support this action. As there were worlds to strike from in the FC to hit the Wolves, this shows a lack of understanding of the situation.
Given the argument of not having the troops to hold all the worlds in their grasp, the clans would not have had more then what? A cluster on any single world? An RCT should be able to deal with that, to find another excuse. This one is a failure.
The who is Wolfnet run by? It was in the IS before the Dragoons got there. Intelstar was clansmen, and yet it said they sent back garbled information. It did not say they returned. It will probably have to be retconned in, like a lot of things, but clansmen had to be in the IS before the Dragoons. In the source books is said several missions were sent into the IS.
And what do you know. The sole source was gone when the Dragoons ignored the clans. This isn't true, as Wolfnet still sent out information after the Dragoons ignored them. If those that recieved the reports didn't pass them on, then that means the clans did have incoming information, it just wasn't sent to the warriors.
Helping the Dragoons is not the same as being lackies.
Translate the phrase 'it could be' is not stating it happened. It is saying something might have been but wasn't. Not sure why this is difficult to understand.
As long as they have the DNA from Joshua, they could very well make a clone of him. The personna would not be the same.
But like most of the time, you missed the point. The medical facilities the Jaguars had, were in the hands of the IS when they wiped out the Jaguars. There was no need to challenge them to a trial of possession as the Jaguars were dead. The facilities were still standing.
The board is the old term for the websites forums. They used to be called bulletin boards.
There were a lot of claims by Katherine that would never have stood up in court, yet they were false. The claim that Victor killed his mother being a huge one.
So Hanse did not start the project by finding someone that would do the job, and train them to become Joshua?
Before his death in 3052, Hanse Davion initiated a contingency plan for the possibility that Joshua might die in the care of the Federated Commonwealth. If Joshua died, he could be replaced by a body double so that his father, Captain-General Thomas Marik, would be unaware of his son's death.[2][3]
Wow, The second paragraph says wonders about this. Funny how that is never brought up or possibly even read.
As stated before, Victor only let the program run.
Ok, I was wrong. It was the third paragraph, not the 2nd. (Edit)
If you don't remember what you wrote, stop writing. There are several times in multiple threads that you say the clans warships need to be pulled as the IS didn't have any. Or that you should be allowed to start using nukes.
Yes. The boxed set had things related to nukes. Worlds that were radiated, as well as the history of the SL and first two wars using them. The rule sets avoided giving players the ability to use nukes, as it would have removed the game components entirely. Just like having a planetary defense system that wouldn't allow ships to get close to the planet. The SDS did a fine job against the invasion of Terra, the first time. Hmmm...
Now go back to ignoring the non alt threads. I don't want yet another one being locked because of the constant bs of alt being thrown around as canon.
Edited by ghostrider (05/19/22 07:52 PM)
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ghostrider
05/20/22 01:38 AM
45.51.181.83
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I wonder how many of the nobles attacking each other, would be secretly approved by Katherine?
Them doing her bidding without any sort of word or command, that actually allows her to say she had nothing to do with it.
I can see more then a few. Probably anything against the FS or Skye regions being ok, while she would very much condemn those against her allies. But with tongue in cheek for some of them.
And for some to strike across the border into the DC or FWL, would really make her smile. Full deniability, especially if they did some real damage.
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Requiem
05/20/22 08:01 AM
101.185.82.214
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Red Corsair (Clan Variant) utilized a Black Lion, name Fire Rose, whist engaging Arc Royal …
Pg. 266 Natural Selection
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Katherine was already trying to rid the FC of Victor before he became Archon Price
If this was the case, then why didn’t she send a professional to complete the job?
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So what events did Victor screw up before Katherine killed Melissa?
Upon Graduation was appointed the rank of Kommandant – Major (skipping Lieutenant and Captain – both of which are important for the development of an officer).
Battle – Trell 1 – Due to him being as green as grass Victor’s retreat actions, required the Red Brigade to save him – later Cox was forced to knock him out to force him to be evacuated via dropship after he initially refused. What we see here is his inability to see the bigger picture as well as inability to accept the fact that he is the heir apparent of the FC and that with this position he has larger responsibilities to the state – than his personal desire to win glory in battle.
A fatal flaw that he never seems to come to terms with when he becomes Archon Prince.
After being knocked out and undertaking an abortive retreat he is given the command of a battalion of the Tenth Lyran Guards – another position that he has never earned just given due to his pedigree.
Thus we see Victor is saved by Kai Allarad-Liao within the gash.
At this point rather than remaining as CO of his unit he abandons them to travel to Outreach to learn about the Clans from the Dragoons.
During this he came to blows with Hohiro and fell in love with Omika – both indicating his immaturity – the FC needed the DC to form a common front against the Clans thus coming to blows was counter productive (short and long term) – as for falling in love any fool could have told him this was doomed from the start.
Alyina – Kai’s self sacrifice once again saved Victor – due to his own stupidity in not predicting how the enemy would react in order to capture him. And at the end of the battle he only has 13 operational Mechs …
Thus demonstrating once again he still does not know what he is doing.
Teniente – Rescue mission of Hohiro Victor had once again needed to be bailed out – this time by Hohiro
So how good is his military track record so far? Lets just say it was a far distance from the Hero he was been acclaimed as.
Rather than accept his duty upon the death of his father – he convinced his mother to stay on as regent – just so he could continue playing military commander of a mech unit.
With the introduction of the Red Corsair Raids – Victor was determined to ”take up the fight himself” – at this point you really have to ask yourself is this the best thing he can do for the FC – hunting pirates? As a leader at this point he should be delegating this to the best person …
By not doing this we see another of his faults … he has to be the one to fix a problem militarily … he has a real problem when it comes to the idea of delegation.
So yes Victor is a real ____ up as the future ruler of his realm – immature, pig headed, militaristic, dreams of military success beyond his capability, thinking only of his personal wants where as he should be thinking about the wants of the FC people … so just a few of his faults at the time of his Mother’s death. Thus it is quite easy to see how pitiful a leader Victor would be at this point in time which brings with it the future fall of the FC due to his ineptitude.
Whereas if you compare this to Katherine – she (on the other hand) is actively learning how to govern the realm through an intensive mentoring program with the current leader of the FC realm!
Also it is quite clear that Melissa had no idea whatsoever as to what was occurring right under her own nose – is she did then she would never have walked into her own assassination.
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You do not have to go through the Falcons to hit the wolves
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth
Maps – after Clan Invasion https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:LC-3052.png
Two choices – through Rasalhague (bottom / up) – which may violate the treaty, through the Jade Falcons – and through the Periphery (Top / down).
Still looks like the most strategic method of attack is through the Falcons as you will also be able to utilize the Dark Nebula as a forward staging facility, as well as the proximate jump distance to Clan Wolf held worlds closer to the Remains of Rasalhague.
As you will need Rasalhague’s and Comstar’s permission to go bottom up in a war with the Wolves and can you really expect Focht to give the green light?
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A cluster on any single world?
How long before the Clan can amass a sizeable force to fight a lone RCT? This really is a recipe for disaster!
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Wolfnet was in the IS before the Dragoons
Sorry but NO this is just wishful thinking as they never made it past the periphery. Canon backs this up as it is clear by what was written that they came to the periphery and then left – no one was left behind.
Why is it so difficult to understand what was clearly written within Sarna?
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Snord’s Irregulars
Being at their beck and call makes them lackies.
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difficult to understand
What you believe it says and what the rest of us think it says is two different things – rewrite to make it clearer required.
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As long as they have DNA from Joshua, they could make a clone
Really? This is what you say to a grieving family?
Question – If President A built a nuclear missile silo … then many years later President B pushed the button to launch the missile … which President is responsible for the Nuclear war?
As per the Hanse / Victor scenario it appears to be A. Thus is this still applicable can I blame my forefathers for everything wrong in my life – it was never my fault ….
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There were a lot of claims by Katherine that would never have stood up in court, yet they were false. The claim that Victor killed his mother being a huge one.
Sorry but no one in their right mind would ever introduce this into court unless they had already arranged for the evidence ahead of time as a trap.
And yes I did say that nukes should be used against clan warships as it was the only weapon in town that could scratch a warship.
And if TPTB want to play _________________ by not allowing the IS a proper defence method against warships I will say what is the point of it all if you just want to play favourites once again at the expense of a good story?
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I wonder how many of the nobles attacking each other, would be secretly approved by Katherine?
You asked me ignore non alt threads – can I ask what this one is, is it a non-alt thread as it was never discussed in Canon?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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