realities of the IS

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ghostrider
05/20/22 11:59 AM
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The egotistical Katherine wanted to humiliate Victor. Sending a team would lead back to her.

Many leaders family skip lower ranks. This is not new. It is not a mistake Victor made. It was the promotions board doing so, probably thinking they had to.
Almost all of the examples has him refusing to leave troops behind, while he gets sent to safety. A lot of the situations came about like all combat does. Plans never survive contact with the enemy.
The issue is Victor is not the only child. So having to be completely safe isn't a huge deal. Katherine could very well have taken the FC without destroying it, by just letting Victor do his thing, by removing the escape routes. Arthur and Peter were ready to take the thrones as well, if he died. Sad thing is, he seemed to have the same thoughts as his dead Uncle Ian. You know. Hanses brother that died and left the throne to Hanse.
The drive to do things himself, shows he is not one of those nobles that talk about things, and never does anything about them. In the time of the invasion, his willingness to engage the clans himself, shows the military he is not going to sacrifice them.

Katherine was learning how to destroy those refused to follow her without being punished for it. Her anger at being 2nd born caused her to be overlooked for running the FC due to history. The first born is normally the leader, while another issue that isn't enforced in the FC was her being female. She wanted all to bow to her without needing a command.

Not sure how hitting the clans, became just hitting the Wolves, but given the fact Serpent was going after the clan home worlds, the truce would have been considered violated. Rolling back the Falcons would have opened up doing the same with the Wolves. Katherine would have had to hit the wolves, as just taking on the Falcons would have shown something was up. I mean all of the territory needed to be retaken, not just what the Falcons had.

Still lacking thought before posting? The idea of hitting worlds with a 3 to 1 advantage was answered with the cluster vrs an RCT. Do you think this would be only one world at once? Multiple worlds being hit would prevent the large movement of troops to any one world. And if done with a batchall, the inclusion of other forces is forbidden, if the clans still honored the challenges. So hit like 10 worlds, then refit. As the clans try to retake those worlds, they spread out even thinner. Simple strategy.

Why is it no one has supported your views of things? Yet they back up most of what I am saying about the canon story. Might it be because most see it the same way I do? So by your statement, whos view of the story is correct?

Simple scenario that leaves out one point. Did president B push the button because they were being attacked as such?
Now with the question of grieving parents, how many are their when even a simple raid happens? Any conflict causes grief. Focusing on Joshua puts more importance on him then it should. He was dieing before Thomas was stupid and sent him to New Avalon. NAIS did what they could, but if WOB was merciful, they would have done something. Same with Comstar. Though he is a single person, Joshua was born to die. Honestly, they should have removed him from his misery and pain.

The statement of Victor starting the Gemini program is false. Blame is not allocated to Hanse, as the statement is a false statement. It was simply stating fact. As with all black ops, it ran a risk. It was exposed. Had it not been, the imposter would still never have sat on the throne of the FWL. It just would have been in the future 'Joshua' would die.

And Victor learned from Katherine that implying things does more damage then actual proving it. She implied Victor killed his mother. People believed it without proof.

The question of why nobles didn't pursue their agendas while the civil war raged was brought up. Do you see where I said they had to do this or that? No. I asked what they would have done Katherine's bidding without her direction. I am not forcing a view, nor am I demanding action here. But you haven't seen this in the time on the board, I don't expect you to see it now.
Requiem
05/20/22 06:08 PM
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Sending a team and that of a professional



Sorry but Katherine is not egotistical, she is, however, a realist and as professional is a noun, then the plural is professionals – thus just as all her previous activities she would send a lone trouble-shooter to deal with Victor. Thus the idea of humiliating him should be inaccurate – In my opinion, like her father, she would just go straight for the neck and kill him outright at the earliest possible situation, which really shouldn’t be that difficult when he continues to play at soldiering.

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Many leaders skip lower ranks



Only if you go back to Napoleonic times, when it was expected that you could purchase your commission.

In modern times – Lieutenant.

What this demonstrates is that the writers required a pretext to provide a suitable rank for Victor – as they need him in charge of a suitable force and not just a part of a force for the projected future narrative.

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The issue is Victor is not the only child. So having to be completely safe isn't a huge deal.



What a loveless family you are proposing – the children are nothing more than interchangeable.

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his willingness to engage the Clans



Clearly demonstrates that Victor has no understanding of his position as heir apparent.

It demonstrates that he refuses to take his position seriously.

Also what happed to his Uncle Ian, who also desired command of a combat unit, and not the throne?

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Katherine



Still have not studied Machiavellianism and the Houses throughout the Renaissance? Katherine’s personality is not that simple.

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the fact Serpent was going after the clan home worlds, the truce would have been considered violated.



… and yet this never occurred in canon.

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just taking on the Falcons would have shown something was up



… just as taking on the Jaguars shows …

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all of the territory needed to be retaken



This is where my Alt Universe steps in as a means of demonstrating how it could be done.

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Still lacking thought before posting? The idea of hitting worlds with a 3 to 1 advantage was answered with the cluster vrs an RCT.



Still do not get it – yes your RCTs may be able to take back several key worlds (for now) however if you do not plan for the combined counter attack by the Clans upon these worlds you have taken your survival probability starts to drop rapidly. Thus only with combined RCT forces will you be able to survive the counterattack.

Question – By this stage have the Falcons come to view all IS forces as nothing more than barbarians – hence allowing them the right to use noble clan tradition such as the batchall has been disallowed?

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President A and B



Attempting to obfuscate will not change the question, the reason why the button was pushed is immaterial – just that it was pushed.

Thus the answer is?

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Focusing on Joshua puts more importance on him then it should.



As Hohiro. Victor and Joshua are all heirs to an empire does this mean you also believe the story places more importance upon Hohiro and Victor than it should?

We are all passing on – this is just the by-product of life.

Thus “Honestly, they should have removed Hohiro and Victor from their misery and pain?”

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Black ops



So the end justifies the means? – and what about Katherine is she too allowed to use this for the betterment of the FC realm – kill anyone just as long as it makes the realm stronger? …

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implying things does more damage then actual proving it … People believed it without proof.



And what of Victor’s so called proof is it implied so that people will just believe it also?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/20/22 11:21 PM
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Can someone explain to me, besides saying the developers needs to push a story line forward, why Melissa did not cancel Gemini? Her time as Archon-Princess would have made her aware of the operation, and given her background reputation, she would have cancelled it.

Two flaws with the Katherine statement. First is that she was egotistical, and second, Hanse was called the Fox because he was not one to hit you straight on unless he had to. Hanse would distract and hit you from four different angles. As Katherine was convinced she was the only one to rule them all, that is the very foundation of an egotistical person.

How many leaders went from being a child to a ruler of a realm? The skipping of lower ranks goes much further back. It goes to the dawn of mankind.

The concept pushed that everything rode on Victor taking over the FC is a false narrative. So showing that he was not going to hide to save his hide when others were dying in the field was the point of him leading them. Something that seems to be missing from the argument. Had he hid, you would have called him a coward. That is the logic projected thru the responses put up.

Ian gave his life holding back the DC when the situation got bad. He allowed his unit to get free, which also included Patrick and Morgan Kell. Also, he was not there because he desired combat over the throne, but was there because he felt he had little choice. Or did you not read that as well?

As the trial on Strana Mechty ended the invasion, violation of the Truce was ignored. The fact that the IS struck from below the truce line in order to get the clan home worlds looks to have been overlooked.

Learn context. We were talking about the possibility of the FC taking back worlds from the clans when Serpent was on their way to the clan home worlds. Suggesting that all clans had to be removed, hitting just the Falcons would have had people asking why Katherine didn't order hits on the Wolves as well. But you don't seem to want to think of that, as it destroys the entire vision of the story, or possible alternatives.

No. The alt has things that never happened, popping out the backside, with tactics in place that counter things in the future nothing could predict. It has no place in arguing canon facts. As you have multiple threads on the subject, and time and time again, was told to keep to canon facts when arguing canon facts, it appears you can't separate what is canon facts anymore. WIth that, go back to just your alt threads, as that is all you really seem to know, given the responses to everything else.

Really need to think about things before posting, don't you? When suggesting the FC hit the other clans you said you need a 3 to 1 ratio. The response was suggesting a cluster at the most would guard any clan world. Were is it said that only one RCT would be attacking? You would have multiple RCTs attacking multiple worlds. Not sure why this had to be said.
This concept would force the clans to cover more worlds, which means concentrating their forces wouldn't be done.

Immaterial on why someone would press a button launching nukes? That is the ONLY reason that is needed to send nukes. So that red juicy button that says don't press, or the world would end, would be hit just to see what happens? This isn't a cartoon.

As Joshua was dying and in pain, there is a different story then Victor and Hohiro had. And yet again, complaining about Joshua, while a lot of other children died in the wars shows this is only a point to try and change the fact Katherine destroyed the FC to try and humiliate Victor. As stated, WOB and Comstar both refused to deal with Joshua. Yet both were supposed to save the IS. The first question in this response says it all. This was a plot point to move the story along. If any thought was given to Melissa and her ways, Gemini would have been cancelled before Victor even got the chance to continue it.

Killing the person that was ruling the FC better then Katherine could, was a black op. It did NOT better the FC. It made it far worse. But the vision you have refuses to see logic. It is just pushing that the alt is the only thing that makes sense, which it doesn't.

For the masses, it was the same trick Katherine used time and again. For those that would have raised a stink about it, it was enough to make the realize just how far gone Katherine was. Killing her mother was what destroyed the FC. Most of those supporting Katherine were Melissa supporters. They turned on Victor because of Katherine's lies. Once they seen the truth, the stopped supporting Katherine.
Requiem
05/21/22 05:40 AM
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Why Melissa did not cancel Gemini?



The simple answer, she did not have to as all records was sealed and locked away in the vault – in all reality it is highly likely that she did not even know of the document to begin with.

So let me explain utilising the following timeline - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_GEMINI

3051 – Conference of Outreach, First Prince Hanse Davion offered Joshua Marik a bed within NAIS to treat his leukemia.

At this point in time Hanse established a contingency plan in the event of Joshua’s premature death to maintain military aid provided by the FWL to fight the Clans.

This contingency plan – like so many before it – was promptly sealed within the archives under the codename Operation GEMINI.

17 June 3052 – First Prince Hanse Davion dies.

The position of First Price is offered to Victor – he promptly refuses. Melissa is made Regent in the hope that Victor will come to his senses – give up playing soldier and actually do his fulfill his position as per his birthright.

In the interim Operation Gemini – remains locked in the vault unremembered. (Remember this is, at this time, just a glorified contingency document – a what if brief amongst thousands / millions of other contingency plans based upon plausible and implausible events).

19 June 3055 – Melissa Steiner is assassinated.

At this point Victor can no longer shirk his duty – thus assuming the post as First Price / Archon of the FC.

Sometime thereafter the Doctors within NAIS inform Victor that all attempts to save Joshua Marik have failed – they advise him the child has only a short time remaining.

In a pit of uncertainty and extreme fear that he {Victor} will be found wanting when he is compared to either his father or his mother in their ability to rule. Victor decides to search the archives for any advice from his father, and it is at this stage he comes across Operation GEMINI (at this point we do not know if this was the only plan or there were many probable plans constructed upon the line of what if such and such happened what will we do? – i.e contingency planning at its best).
What we do know however is that rather than Victor making a rational choice, on his own ( a choice that his mother would have made), to return the child to his father within the FWL and with the hope that the FWL will still aid in the fighting of the Clans he decides to let the devil on his shoulder whisper into his ear that rather than the angel of his better virtues. He takes the course he believes that dad suggested – as he was the great leader as well as his Father– and abrogates all responsibility by following his father’s old contingency plan – that may or may not have ever seen the light of day as it was only ever a contingency plan – it was never set in stone!

Thus, shortly before the real Joshua Marik breathed his last breath on 20 May 3057, Victor gave the go order to Operation GEMINI (a mistake that will haunt him for the rest of his life and prove to everyone – especially his sister Katherine that Victor is unfit to rule and should be deposed from the position as it is quite clear that Victor cannot make the hard decisions as he paralysed by fear of not measuring up to his father’s expectations).

Simple.

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Katherine was an egotistical person



Read above re Gemini – it is quite clear that she saw Victor’s faults as a future leader way before anyone else – what she also realised was that everyone who looked at Victor only saw the Fox’s son ( ie they were viewing him through rose coloured glasses – and they failed to see the real Victor).
Thus, as the true daughter of the Fox – and for the betterment of the FC as well as the IS – she knew she had to act in the only way that could safeguard everyone.
This is the actions of a realist not an egotist!

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Skipping over ranks



In today’s modern military is such an achievement even possible? Except in certain militaries where when you die in combat you receive a three-rank promotion.
Remember the military of the far future is supposed to be a most professional body than today. As they have been fighting for how long now? And how will it assist the realm in the future if the ruler does not understand the job complexities of the lower officer ranks? By not rising through the ranks the ruler does not have this insight and they do not have the ability to fix any problems, as they do not have the insight that comes with progressing through the ranks.

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Victor in the field (the early missions)



I agree Victor did not hide like a coward as his ego would not let him. The issue is that upon graduating he was green as green as all green grass; he knew only that which the Academy taught him. Once on the filed his Academy training amounted to absolutely nothing, he has yet to achieve combat awareness as well as combat experience that only experience can provide and only experience would allow him to make rational decisions on the battlefield.

He was ill prepared for combat and as such he made mistakes that got good people killed!

In the TV series regarding Richard Sharpe they discussed that there are two types of offices …

“There are two kinds of officers, sir: killin’ officers and murderin’ officers. Killin’ officers are poor old buggers that get you killed by mistake. Murderin’ officers are mad, bad, old buggers that get you killed on purpose – for a country, for a religion, maybe even a flag …”

You see that Victor … That’s what I call a muderin’ officer – and why? Because Victor really doesn’t know what he is doing and is unwilling to listen to any experienced 2IC they would have provided him with, as he is the Fox’s son! and he can do no wrong! … and in so doing he gets the majority of his unit shout out from under him as they have express orders to protect the little prig at all cost.

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First Price – Ian and Victor – in the field



Yes every ruler wants to recognised as the great statesman and war hero …yes it all sounds so gallant and yet it is also the single most idiotic action that a commander can undertake upon a modern battlefield.

However, and this is a big however, what is the duty of the Commander in Chief of the entire military of a single great House. Is it to command, within central command of the Fox’s Lair over a vast number of military units in an attempt to stop a full invasion or is it to ignore this duty and to ride out, take command of a small cog of a much larger machine (an in the process become myopic as to what is occurring within the wider war) and remain …

Both are First Price – their duty is command, all the forces – it is most definitely not to place yourself in command an independent Regiment, and it is never to act as rear guard so that you can kill yourself in a stupid stand just so that people can think you are a hero ….

When you are in Command, Command!

So lets put this simply – WW2 – Rather than command the Allied Expeditionary Force U.S. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower decides to take command of the Big Red 1, go into the field, and continue the battle …

This is what you are suggesting here!

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As the trial on Strana Mechty ended the invasion, violation of the Truce was ignored. The fact that the IS struck from below the truce line in order to get the clan home worlds looks to have been overlooked.



May 1 3059 Task Force Serpent departs on its journey – OpFor training located on Defiance within the Crucis March.

12 April 3060 – Received safcon as well as a meeting with the Grand Council – six days later challenge issued as to a Trial of Refusal ….

Question – how does the battle of Tukayyid factor into a war initially against the Smoke Jaguars and then as a Trial of Refusal against all the Clans, especially when Victor and all IS forces have been provided with Safcon in order to undertake the trial?

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We were talking about the possibility of the FC taking back worlds from the clans when Serpent was on their way



Question
– it was agreed within the IS that you would attack only one Clan – The Smoke Jaguars. Correct?
- it was then agreed by all the other Clans within the IS that this problem related to the Smoke Jaguars only. Correct?
Thus at this point in time your best units are within the DC fighting the Jaguars.
So why would you risk everything, as well as any hope of ever being voted in as First Lord of the 2nd Star League in the future, by undertaking the single most ridiculous act that will undermine everything all house militaries are attempting to achieve currently.

Until the outcome within Clan Space is known or the Clans jump the reservation you have no choice but to do nothing provocative.

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This concept would force the clans to cover more worlds, which means concentrating their forces wouldn't be done.



Need to look at the Touman of the Clan fist as well as how its forces have been dispersed within their OZ – do you have enough RCTs to attack every world at the same time? Otherwise this idea of clan forces being unable to concentrate their forces suddenly evaporates.

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Immaterial on why someone would press a button launching nukes?



Still obfuscating the question – come on third times a charm it’s a simple question.

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killing the person that was ruling the FC … was a black op … it did not better the FC



1st – Dancing Joker as the assassin was now used twice … no black op forces.

2nd – Katherine in charge provided stability – how did Victor or even Yvonne provide stability when the fist refused to leave the cockpit of his mech to govern the realm as First Price and the second was little better than a basket case?

Thus can I ask with regards to Victor’s Military Unit – did it have Reinforced Infantry unit that comprised only civil servants that were assigned to assisted him with the running of the realm – budgets, laws, appointments, meetings etc. Also can you explain how the First Price is expected to run the government from his Mech Cockpit when the entire government’s bureaucracy is how many light years distant?

So where is the “logic” in having an absentee First Price who wants to play at being a military commander as well as a Basket Case who both cannot run the Government – and can only cause internal strife and turmoil?

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They turned on Victor because of Katherine's lies. Once they seen the truth, the stopped supporting Katherine.



First, The media as well as her conduct and the policies she adopted as ruler endeared her to the masses – she was doing an excellent job hence the high popularity rating.
Second, Victor never allowed the mass media to be provided with a copy of his so called evidence – thus the masses never stopped supporting her.

What we have in the future with regards to Adam and her induction into the Clans is one of the more ludicrous plot twists ever devised and makes no real sense whatsoever …

As in all reality if she came back to the LA during the Jihad the majority of the people, the Media, and the Military would have instantly defected to her as she was seen as a stabilizing force that could save them ie a Valkyrie come from Valhalla to save them all …

And this is the real truth of the matter.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/21/22 12:22 PM
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First false fact. Melissa was not appointed regent in hopes of Victor would come to his senses. As wife of Hanse, she was next in line to take over the position. As Victor did not press her for the job, she remained their until she was murdered.
Do you think Hanse did not discuss the operation with Melissa? I am very doubtful it just slipped his mind.
It is also probable that Victor was told about this operation when Hanse put it in motion.

Katherine saw fault in everyone because she decided only she could rule. This is the simple fact of the matter. She thought that out before Hanse died. She was already showing signs as she was being taught. The ego was increasing in size when she found out she could use her power to manipulate people like her tutors.

How many commanders go rogue? Ignore orders to go off on glory runs? And with social generals being in all houses, not just Steiner, most get children born to the rich jump ranks. Victor was a little more extreme then others, but wasn't unique.

Are you forgetting that Victor dealt with great military commanders all the time? Not only his father, but those like Buckaroo Banzai, the Davion brigades, the Lyran Royal brigades and such? I am sure they trained him in combat, as well as command. I would suspect even the Dragoons had some sessions with him. So he was not green like someone just learning how to control the mech.

The history of the game has had most commanders take to the field. The only ones that didn't were not trained in mech operations. Being there helps you to learn the ebb and flow of the battlefield as well as tricks that can be used. Is it smart when in command of an entire realm? Not really. But it is almost demanded that the leader do take to the field to defend their lands. Hanse did it when the 'death commandos' attacked New Avalon. One Battlemaster against the commandos. This is not something that was smart. Only plot armor allowed him to survive this. Don't care how good you are, 36 mechs verses one is not a winning proposition when you are the 1.
Yes, help was coming, but one good shot would have ended it all, and should have. The odds were not in Hanse's favor.

Gonna try that crap again? The fact that Serpent was attacking everything Smoke Jaguar on their way to and in the clan worlds would be a violation of the truce, given the logic of striking from below the truce line. There were no recorded Jagaur bases or forces below the line on the Exodus road. But then the truce did not say anything about the IS striking back. It was something the IS was worried about.
The trial was done AFTER Serpent basically destroyed the Jaguars.

Funny. The exact opposite was stated a while back. When Hanse was defending against the clans, it was stated by someone that ALL forces in the FS portion be sent up to remove the clans from the FC. Now it is best not to do anything? Provoke the clans was a concern, but a full scale invasion was not suggested. Hitting worlds and pushing the clans off them was. There is a difference. Challenging for possession of worlds is standard clan protocol. The FC would have done so while doing this. Aggression is something the clans respect. As the clans were respecting the truce, you could very well have started hitting them from above the line, and pushing them back. Had this happened, the entire issue of the Falcons push would not have happened during the civil war.

Again, the concept of threat of attack alludes you. As the Falcon khans, do you risk losing multiple worlds because you pulled the defenders off them to send them several jumps away to concentrate on where you are being attacked? The FC would have you cut off in a few assaults if you did that. This is the very issue that caused the downfall of the CC in the 4th war. They would not be able to reinforce areas, as others would definitely be attacked. But that's right. You don't understand the piranha effect. Your statement of all forces being in one location and then being sent out once an attack is noted confirms the lack of understanding this.

No. Using nukes always comes down to why. Then again, the auto retaliate function removes this option.
The person that introduces the bomb is ultimately responsible. Had it not been invented and made, it would not be an option. Simple, basic logic.

What do you think a black op is? Using resources in operations that you don't want others knowing it was you.
Katherine provided stability by killing Melissa? Remove the alt from this and what do you get? Katherine killed Melissa to strike at Victor to hurt him. Obviously, Katherine didn't care for Melissa, otherwise she would have found a different way. But Melissa stood in her way of power.
The answer to running a government from the cockpit of the mech has been answered before.
Victor was NOT archon prince until Melissa was murdered. She was running the government, allowing Victor to stay in the field. Second, the government is designed to work without the leader being in contact for a while. That is why reagents and ministers are posted. They handle things in their area while the leader is out of touch. There are a lot of things in the government that the leader never hears about. Only when there is something wrong, will they be told.

She was lying, and the media was not reporting the truth. The masses did not know of the crimes she was doing to others. The high popularity was a false concept. If she was so popular, the civil war would not have been started. Worlds would not have rejected her rule. Stealing the throne is not considered a good thing.

Actually, the idea of her just waltzing in and retaking the LA/LC is wrong. Once the media and everyone else got the real information, not the fiction she was producing, opinions would change. She would still have the fanatically loyal subjects, but the main population would have soured on her actions. She lied to them about what was really going on with those that did not drop to their knees and worship her. Also, the masses are affected by the planetary rulers, as well as others. Once they stopped glossing over the real facts, opinions would have changed.
And since Victor did NOT attempt to take the throne, that entire line of argument is out the window.
Requiem
05/21/22 03:16 PM
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Quote:
First false fact. Melissa was not appointed regent in hopes of Victor would come to his senses. As wife of Hanse, she was next in line to take over the position.



https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Davion

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Steiner-Davion

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Melissa_Steiner_(31st_c.)

First ‘false fact’ is in fact correct.

First piece of evidence: If you had perused the House Davion / House Steiner-Davion Family Tree it becomes obvious that a spouse cannot inherit the Wife / husband’s position as First Princess / Prince.

Second piece of evidence: the Titles she was bestowed with – refer here to Melissa wiki entry “Melissa ruled the Federated Commonwealth as both Archon of the Lyran half (that she inherited from her mother and on her death would pass to Victor as first born) and her capacity as Regent (NOT First Princess) of the Davion half until her eldest child could come of age.”

Third piece of evidence: The definition of Regent – The Oxford Dictionary defines Regent as a person appointed to administer a state because the monarch is a minor or is absent or incapacitated.

Note in 3052 Victor was 22 years old – thus he has come of age and was therefore refusing the Title as First Price so that he could continue swanning about as a soldier and not as the Ruler of the FS.

Thus the statement made that she was hoping Victor would come to his senses and take the Throne is accurate!

Q.E.D.

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Only she could rule



Remember the Oath – Defend the state against all … Foreign and Domestic?

Take a look through the Battletech History of when an incompetent person / a person who only contemplates military adventurism as a leader of a Military Unit takes the Throne.

This history is littered with leaders who leave the sate in a far worse position than that when they received it due to their incredible mismanagement of the State.

As a scion of House Steiner-Davion Katherine has a duty to defend the state against a domestic threat … Victor’s incompetence.

Which is demonstrated by his fist policy … Genesis … and that of a War.

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How many commanders go rogue? Ignore orders to go off on glory runs? … children born to the rich jump ranks. Victor was a little more extreme … but wasn't unique.



In a modern military this will prove disastrous – especially when you state has been in an on again / off again war with its neighbours for how many centuries.
And especially so when the person doing it is the heir to the throne, as what happens if she / he dies without an issue and they also have no siblings – Civil War is a real possibility.

This just demonstrates that when a Ruler goes AWOL from the Thone expect there to great hardship to follow.

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I am sure they trained him in combat



So whist he was growing up they would take him out into the back yard with their Mechs and Units – and stage a real life exercise utilizing live rounds just so that Victor could acquire combat experience.

Sorry but no – the closest Victor would get to combat is either in Academy OpFor games with powered down weapons or in a simulator – and neither is a substitute for real life when someone is trying to take your head.

Face it, Victor was green as green as green grass when he was “provided not earnt” his first command – and look and see what he did with that.

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The history of the game has had most commanders take to the field.



And how many of those are Rulers of a House and how many of them actually survive their time in command – and how many of them leave their realm in a worse situation due to their foolish adventurism.

As for Hanse – he was first on the field in defence of the Helm Memory core (though wouldn’t there be back up copies also?) – however with the arrival of support personnel he should have immediately retired from the field …

It was a raiding force of inexperienced ComGuard soldiers who were in battle for the first time – hence the easy wins!

If we are going bring in Hanse as an example of a “typical” leader … he was brought up not to take the throne but to assist his brother as his strong right arm, hence all the military training as well as actual combat … however how many times did he take to field when he assumed the Post as First Price? As wasn’t he for the most part on his capitol world leading the Government and the military in orchestrating strong economic as well as military strategies?

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would be a violation of the truce



And yet canon says otherwise! As the Invasion was actually coming at the Jaguars from bases side on.

Also the Truce only said that the Clans could not go below a certain point – it did not say that the IS could attack from bellow that point.

Quote:
The exact opposite was stated a while back.



First, what are your political and military objectives at the start of the war.
Second, with the establishment of the SLDF due to the establishment of the 2nd Star League – how do these objectives change not that rather than fighting on your own you are now fighting in a coalition.

Times change and we must change with the times – at these points in time there are two distinct and different political and military goals.

So do you believe you have enough forces to take on every world within the Falcon OZ – whist at the same time do you believe hat the technology gab between that of the LA and Clans has been reduced significantly so that the FC can stand toe to toe with the Clans and give as good as they get. i.e. there is no disparity in LC / Clan forces when fighting?
Also whist this projected war commenced you are certain that it will not derail the war within the Falcon OZ and thus recommence the Clan Invasion of the IS? Where all the Home Clans are now allowed to invade also as the treaty is now broken and all Clans can Invade?
Sorry but I can’t see it … the best LA forces are away and you just do not have remaining forces to engage the Falcons on every one of their worlds at the same time.

Quote:
the simple question



The silence is the thunderous when it comes to this question.

Quote:
Katherine provided stability by killing Melissa?



Fabrication of discussion – only Victor had to go.

Quote:
the government is designed to work without the leader being in contact for a while. That is why reagents and ministers are posted.



Sorry but this is not the case – the government cannot run for vast periods of time when the leader is swanning off to play soldier for years at an end. All this does is paralyse the government whilst destroying the economy.

Also isn’t this a sure fire way of loosing your throne via a coup? Ow yes this did happen!

Quote:
She was lying, and the media was not reporting the truth.



So where does it ever say that a LA reporter stumbled upon her lying?

Also during the Civil War how popular was she have you even bothered to look? As remember it was Victor who started this war it was not Katherine!

Also when did Victor prove she was lying, the answer is never.

The only reason why they went to Victor’s side was her pro Lyran stance – as well as some of the Lords were being opportunistic in their backing - help him now and get a prize later.

Since he did not due his duty and take the throne proves that he is incompetent.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/21/22 07:47 PM
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The spouse inherited the LC from her husband, starting the entire concept of Steiner running the LC. Oh wait. That doesn't count as it flies in the face of the bs afterwards.
The spouses in that tree were not from a ruling line as Melissa was. So the name was kept at the ruling line. There is nothing stating that the spouse can not inherit the title. If true, then Hanse could not have inherited the archon name as he was not part of the blood line for the LC.
Again, false facts to try and change the canon truth. The Archon-prince(ss) line was above both house positions. The fact Victor gave his mother the Prince title when he decided he needed to learn more changes the inherited line. As VICTOR decided to continue to try and learn to rule, the clans invasion kept him from focusing on the non military aspects of it. Melissa did not retain the title because she felt he was unable to do the job, she did it because he asked her to. Since he was learning under Melissa's tutoring, Katherine killed Melissa before Victor could become a better leader.

Really? Trying to suggest someone will follow some quote when they want to rule a nation, and will do anything to do so. How about you get some people backing up your views to say so. So far, it seems only one person thinks this way, and he constantly adds in alt views as canon. Someone with a huge ego will think all people except them are unfit for a position. Therefore all people are terrorists domestic or not. She killed her mother to try and humiliate and cause a massive uprising so she could be seen as the hero. Who is the terrorist? The one that promotes violence against the people for their own personal gains?

Might need to reread the games history. Rogue commanders happen a lot more often then you seem to think. Otherwise, things like poisoning water reserves would only be done at the direct command of the realms leader. There would never be anything like a coup. And that is never, as it requires going against the leaders wishes and orders.

Nondi and Katrina fought in mechs when they were pre teens. Live training excersizes are done in training facilities around the IS. We will ignore the clans, as they are a different story. Most students have been in live fire excersize long before they are 18. This is part of military training in the IS.
Also, the simulators do a great job at teaching you to avoid dying, especially when dealing with the elite units that were stationed or visited New Avalon and Tharkad.
Or are you saying that training outside of live fire doesn't teach you anything?

Where did it say the Comstar force was inexperienced? I have never seen anything in canon print stating they were inexperienced. They were professionals as they destroyed their DNA when taken down.
As for how many realms suffered while they were gone is impossible to say. How many prospered because the leader wasn't around to put his two cents into everything, especially fields he had no clue in? Being born into a leadership house does not mean you can rule properly. Reagents can make decisions while the ruler is out of touch. How do you think most realms ran when the 1st and 2nd war was raging? Most leaders were part of the forces in war, not hiding on their home worlds.

Read the entire response before responding with bs. First off, the truce line was there so even if the clans went to the Pegasus Galaxy and back, they could not strike beyond the truce line.
This statement: But then the truce did not say anything about the IS striking back. It was something the IS was worried about. covers the issue. So did you read that part?

Maybe you should take a day or two to respond. No where in the statements does it say you take every world in the zone in a month. You simply start hitting a few worlds and slowly push back the clans. 3 to 1 is about an RCT verses a cluster. You hit worlds and make is so any movement of troops will leave holes in their lines, so you can hit multiple worlds with far less forces. As the IS had the numeric superiority, just getting the forces to the worlds would have tied down forces.
At the beginning of the war, you said all FS forces should have hit the clans. Now we are talking about using what is available without throwing them away. You have a much better intel view on what is where, and how many, not the blind strikes you would have done in the first part of the war. You also have a much better idea on how they fight and the differences in the tech. This is a smarter war then the initial invasion was.
To try to engage on every world shows the lack of strategy and tactics. Threatening worlds with invasions will keep forces pinned. Even the clans.

Fabrication of discussion? You fabricated the Melissa did not bring stability to the FC? Or that killing Melissa would bring stability? Just wanted to know, as Katherine would have had to kill Melissa anyways, as Katherine would never have been able to assume the throne as long as Melissa was alive. Peter or Arthur would have. Time of war needed a proven warrior. With Victor in the field, Melissa could get around this issue.

The coup happened because a family member seized the throne. Someone outside of the family would have been executed as soon as they could be.

Several media companies were shut down while Katherine spread her lies. They reopened under new management that supported her lies. Sound like a dictatorship to me. Sounds like suppression of the truth to me. But then if you had read the canon stories properly you would remember all of this.
Victor stated the civil war? Who stole whose throne? Who was the one destroying the FC in a push to make all worship her? Who kllled their mother to begin the major push into stealing the throne? Who was allowing 'rogue' commanders to kill noble families in order to silence the truth?
The truth came out Katherine was lying about a lot of things.
Explain if Katherine was so popular that it was in the LC that the civil war started, and why units were siding with him that were traditionally Steiner units?
Like maybe Archers unit as the Katherine supporter killed his sister among others on Thorin?
Requiem
05/22/22 08:53 AM
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Quote:
The spouse inherited the LC …



Sorry but you do realize that as Hanse is now deceased we are actually discussing the FS component of the FC and not the Lyran component.

As for the spouse inheriting, if you actually looked at the Family Tree it is quite recognisable that the spouse does not inherit.

As for “the fact Victor gave his mother the Price Title,” if you had read Melissa’s sarna entry you would have noticed, as was pointed out above, she was never provided with the First Princess Title – she was only provided with the title of Regent.

Also as Victor was 22 years old – him taking a sabbatical within the military to learn how to rule is very counterproductive. As if he wished to learn to rule then there could be no one better than that of his Mother to teach him the ropes as it were – a position his siter realizes as being immensely important as to her education when it comes to learning to rule …

Thus the hole proposition is quite obsequious as to the view of Melissa’s FS title.

Quote:
She killed her mother …



Can you prove this claim in a court of law, if not it is just liable slander, and remember not even Victor can prove this in a court of law …

Quote:
Terrorist



Oxford dictionary
a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Please let me know what unlawful actions the Archon had undertaken?

Quote:
poisoning water reserves



A war crime – and who and where and when?

As for a coup – it is just a horse race to see who is first part the post …

Quote:
fighting in Mechs when pre-teens



They were in mechs when they were between 9 and 12 years old?

Yes it is true that Katrina graduated from the Nagelring at 18 – however where does it say she started training in a mech this young? As for Nondi where does it say when she graduated as it only stipulates these two sisters competed ….

Training exercises are just that training exercises – it is not the same as being in battle!

As for simulators – you have to consider the psychology – you know it is a simulator and you know that you will walk out alive no matter what you do – thus how is this comparable to a live military exercise where people are attempting to kill you ….

Quote:
Where did it say the ComStar force was inexperienced?



Can you please provide a detailed list of all combat these units were involved in? also where does it say these individuals maintained an acid bath in their cockpit in order to destroy all DNA evidence?

Thus inexperienced is an appropriate word …

Quote:
most forces in the 1st and 2nd war were part of the forces in war, not hiding o their home worlds



And look at how that eventuated.

As for the truce line – this affects only the clans – it has no effect whatso ever on the IS.

Quote:
threatening worlds with invasions ….



Doesn’t this depend upon the clan commander?

Also the FS throne goes to the oldest sibling – thus if victor is dead it goes to Katherine,

Quote:
where did it say media companies were being sold



Question where once again is your proof by the civilians to show that it was all Katherine’s fault?

Also Archer’s sister – this requires assistance via the MP – so who else has this power like the CO Of the Military and how about others ? can you show me the smoking gun ?

Also within the Lyran realm how long has money being able to buy you anything you want - thus with enough money in the right circles can you buy your own freedom from anything?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/22/22 11:56 AM
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The founding charter called for nine "Archons" to rule the nation, but the impracticality of this system led to a coup by the leader of Donegal, Robert Marsden, who declared himself Archon Basileus in August 2375. An invasion by the Draconis Combine in 2407 resulted in the death of then Archon Alistair Marsden, brother of Robert, in 2408. Rule fell to his wife, Katherine Steiner, safely ensconced on the new capital of Tharkad. The reign of House Steiner had begun.
What? As stated the LC change hands thru spousal means.
And as you look at the tree, none of those spouses were from a ruling family of a nation. The Steiner-Davion merger is unique in this aspect.

Yeah. I guess stopping the biggest military threat to his people shouldn't have been his first priority. I mean, what good is learning to rule a nation that won't be there in the coming years.

Still playing that dead card? Katherine accused Victor of all sorts of things and never once proved any of it. Media manipulation is not the same as a courts verdict. As we are talking about the persons actions to define their rights, Katherine killed her mother. That is fact. It shows she will do anything to gain and retain power. This fact is why the civil war happened. She continued to abuse her powers and hurt people for doing exactly what she was trying to get them to do, only instead of voicing Victor was evil, they said she was. The only person Victor actively tried to suppress from protesting, was Ryan. Katherine killed Ryan as well.

Killing and ordering the deaths of all that opposed her, starting with her mother, and not ending until she died. That should cover the definition. But then saying killing her mother was correct as she was trying to control her family. I doubt you see the irony here.

Go read the 4th war, where the sword of light regiment poisoned the water reserves. Then the use of the chemicals in the CC. They were continuously used by the CC in the St. Ives war. Not an oooops, but used on several worlds, so the revenge aspect didn't work. Those chemicals were left over from before St. Ives split from the CC, so they knew they were there.

The fact that the assassination of Melissa was a huge part of Katherines media ploy to turn opinion from Victor, was never proved in court. It couldn't be, but it was used to convict him in the eyes of the public. So your where's the proof doesn't hold up.
ghostrider
05/22/22 12:09 PM
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Interesting reading.
Ironically, in order for Katherine to come to power in the Clans, she had to shed her image as a peacemaker and become a warrior. Though she learned to pilot a 'Mech there, she was never as skilled as she was in politics.[1]
So Katherine did not learn to pilot a mech in the FS.

Katherine used whatever means necessary to attain power, This is in the wiki under Katherine's section as well.
Katherine generally allowed her military commanders free rein to prosecute the war against her brother's supporters as they saw fit, as she focused on rooting out insurrectionists and other supporters of her brother. Arrests, sessions of torture and executions became common events, especially on New Avalon.[7]
She also demonstrated distinct signs of pettiness and cruelty, regularly using her nation's resources to persecute anyone she deemed an enemy. This started with political opponents, but eventually came to include those staying neutral in the conflict between she and Victor, and even those she deemed "insufficiently loyal"

Guess someone has not been reading the wiki and reporting all that is there, but cherry picking facts to try and justify the false statements being made.
StormLancer
05/22/22 08:59 PM
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Hey ghost rider, you ever get the impression some here have dictator fetishes? I mean I am getting serious "Notice me Senpai" vibes.


But on a serious note, Katherine was a violent tyrant who's goal to turn the Federated Commonwealth into the Lyran Alliance. And with her assuming the throne while he was on the invasion of the clan space as part of Operation Bulldog. Katherine started the Civil War when she started coming down on Victor loyal worlds with battlemechs. Victor was general of the SLDF at the time and trying to deal with the problem of the Wobbies.

Man some people need to just chill on the Lore. Canon is canon, everything else belongs in the Fan Fiction section.
Storm Lancers Mercenary Company Motto
We are but Human, Lancers charging the storm.
ghostrider
05/22/22 09:31 PM
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The problem occurs when a decent conversation gets going, and someone gets lonely for arguments over canon facts verse fan fiction. This conversation had taken a few forms, and got to the point of having threads shut down because of them. Alt has it's place, but not in discussions of canon discussions.

I have had outbursts in the past that lead towards being the bully. Not gonna lie about that. I do back off of it when told I am getting bad. Fan fiction isn't a bad thing. Some have good basis and takes care of holes, while the makers tend to avoid saying it is the only way forward. The problem I get is the people that say their concepts fix all the holes in canon, when they don't. Those ones seem to create the time paradox, where things are being 'fixed' before anyone in the game knows what is coming.

I will state this time and again. I don't have anything beyond BMR for rule sets and stopped getting new books right after the clans were stopped invading the IS. Some of the information I have is old and no longer valid. Some of it was never repeated in the newer books and was not revoked either. So errors on my part do happen.
Again. I admit that.

Now if you have something good to discuss, we could sure use it.
Like within the lore, do you think Melissa would have rescinded Gemini when she was in charge?
Should the main ship yard in the CC have been at least raided during the 4th war?
Should avocado toast become the new meal of choice in the DC?
StormLancer
05/22/22 10:01 PM
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Avacado on toast should be a IS staple.

And as pertaining to Gemini, I believe that Melissa would have informed Marik of the truth. I think she would have felt that by that time the stabilization of the Inner Sphere was paramount and a deep deception of that scale would be tantamount to a declaration of war.

The whole Cappellan Confederation should have been steam rolled in the 4th Succession War. Never trust a Liao even as a mercenary.

So let's talk about the Inner Sphere dead zones, is it possible for outcast societies to exist and flourish in the "pass by" systems in-between the deep sphere worlds?
Storm Lancers Mercenary Company Motto
We are but Human, Lancers charging the storm.
ghostrider
05/23/22 01:23 AM
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It is likely that there are a lot of communities existing along routes that few, if any really know about. Too many worlds were thought destroyed during the first two wars, and so many pirates seem to be hidden near population centers. A few merchants might be supporting those communities as they pass thru the system they are in, dropping off supplies, while still receiving payments.
Without having outside contact beyond a few, most governments wouldn't be bothered to look for them. And this goes for inside the IS as well as outside. The issue comes down to the number of jumpships. The context of if jumpships are required to feed worlds changed from the initial concept to being used mainly for luxury goods or military traffic.
As Jumpships and Dropships resource book stated the IS had about 2000 jumpships total, this was discussed that there is no way that could support worlds needing to import food to survive, yet the stories continued to suggest worlds could be starved if blockaded, or shipments delayed. So logic flaws have been pounded quite a bit from issues like this.

The CC is where the issues of not wanting to remove some of the fans favorite nation in the 4th war, so they had to come up with a reason not to completely wipe it out. I understand them, but don't agree with their conclusion. But to sell more products, they needed to keep the CC alive.
One possible route would have been to wipe out the leadership beyond Candace, and allow her to take over the CC instead of just the area she ruled before and during the war, St. Ives.
This does take away the story line of removing FS troops because of hatred among the occupational troops, and replacing them with LC troops by Melissa. It also removes the 2nd SL issues later on. This depends on how far in advance the developers were thinking.

To be honest, and has been stated before, the developers got into trouble with what to do when they came up with the whole FC to begin with. They may have had the clans figured out when doing so, but I don't know.

Not sure how long you have been reading the site, But most here believe the Jihad to be complete garbage, so most don't bother talking about that.
Requiem
05/23/22 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Guess someone has not been reading the wiki and reporting all that is there, but cherry-picking facts to try and justify the false statements being made.



Can you please provide an explanation as to when Hanse Davion dies, his position of First Price is influenced by that of the Lyran Archon’s position?

As per https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Melissa_Steiner_(31st_c.) her title is Regent and remains as Regent – that is the position of First Princess is NEVER offered.

Quote:
… stopping the biggest military threat to his people shouldn't have been his first priority. I mean, what good is learning to rule a nation that won't be there in the coming years.



Yes I agree … what good is it learning to be field officer when his future is that of remaining within the C&C and learning how to direct the entire FC military to achieve an objective.

Quote:
Katherine accused Victor …



Please re-read, as Katherine never openly accused Victor of anything … more subtle measures were used …. Thus you can never pin any of the accusations upon Katherine.

Quote:
Katherine killed her mother



Still playing this card when no one, not even Victor, can prove this – there is only supposition to the fact!

Quote:
This fact is why the civil war happened.



And her I thought it was due to Victor misinterpreting the facts as to his bother’s assassination … that in reality was a kidnapping.

If he hadn’t been so fixated on his sister, and the desire to achieve revenge against her, he may have come to the conclusion that his bother was kidnapped and may have actually begun a search to find and rescue him – rather that let him disappear …

Quote:
Use of chemical warfare



First it is a war crime where the highest officer on the field is held culpable …

Second the enemy will use it to discredit your House etc. via media reports.

Third it may boomerang on you – Kentares Massacre for example.

Quote:
So your where's the proof doesn't hold up.



Beg to differ …

Quote:
So Katherine did not learn to pilot a mech in the FC.



So?
Quote:
Katherine used whatever means necessary to attain power, This is in the wiki under Katherine's section as well.



So let me get this straight, during an armed conflict it is wrong to initiate defensive measures against 5th Column / Partisans / Spies.

Suggest googling US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
05/23/22 09:58 AM
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Removing one of the main Houses would sell products if done right. They could have that be the focal point of the whole thing, the push to defeat the CapCon, or the FedSuns could be a full-blown multi-year(s) storyline that if written well could offer more to the game and universe than some of the other stuff we have seen.

There is a ton of potential for a new House to rise in the former FWL space and one that isn't a copy of the old Marik one. Houses should be falling, not lingering on.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
05/23/22 11:49 AM
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In turn she was beloved by all in both realms, and not even the most hardline conservatives dared to oppose her publicly. Melissa Steiner-Davion almost single-handedly rallied the two realms to rebuild the Federated Commonwealth after the Clan Invasion and was poised to lead it into a new renaissance.[6]
That statement is a large reason why Katherine had Melissa killed. Katherine could never have achieved anything close to this, so her wanted title of goddess of the FC would never have been done.

Where in the history of the IS did a leader that was a pilot, never step back into the unit they were trained to use, and enter combat once becoming leader? NOW READ THIS BEFORE answering as this pertains to the SL era and beyond, not while humanity was bound to Terra.

What good is learning to fight when you will be bound to C&C? Really. Think about questions before asking them. What good is a leader in a war, when they don't know the first thing about war? Not learning how to conduct a war is far worse then jumping ranks. An RCT is bad enough to lose, but to have complete regions of space lost to mistakes is far worse. Civilians die in great numbers when you lose that much territory. And no, Victor did not lose large amounts of troopers due to bad decisions in the field. He lost them to unknown circumstances showing up. Even the great merc leaders have had that happen. Also the developers needed plot armor, and that was it.

Katherine did accuse Victor of a lot of things. Her suggestions did not say 'Victor killed mom' but things like how could he remain in the field and not come back for the funeral? All statements like that pointed towards accusing him of the crime.

I can say the Wolverines were never set up, but actually did the bombing. Why? Because it was never proven in a court of law. And before you say it was printed saying they did, remember your argument with Katherine.

You mean having Melissa still alive, would have set off the chain of events for a civil war even if his brother was kidnapped? And you suggest no logic flaws in the alt?

Again, you miss the large point. If there is no one that can punish criminals such as Kali Liao, then being a war criminal means nothing, but a rallying point to remove her. Until it happens, they are free to do what ever they want.

The issue of Katherine learning to use a mech in the clans is yet another false 'fact' thrown in by someone to try and justify more lies in their argument. This is but the latest in a long line of this action. This is also not an ooops, as the very article referred to, was posted a few times. This was a purposeful misrepresentation of the facts.

Again, context has been ignored. It was gain power by any means necessary. That refers to her entire actions of abusing everything she could to obtain that power. Including killing family members. Not sure were deployment of intel recon in a physical combat comes in. Unless you are trying to suggest she was fighting a war to become the person that can order entire worlds destroyed for not praising her, while kissing her feet. Asking for a blessing as she stomps on yet another innocent persons head.
Karagin
05/23/22 02:27 PM
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In the books, they did let it be hinted that Victor sent Katherine an HPG message saying "Just Bury the B****" or something similar and she did use that as a detractor against him. And she did hammer his time spent playing army vs leading. That was one of her main fallback points.

I thought her having to learn to pilot a mech was part of Vlad's breaking her to his control and his way of "showing love"...or did his alt become fact while I was out of town?

Context gets ignored all the time. I have been accused of it when I point out issues with the piss-poor WoB Ubermesh storyline. Yet, everything I pointed out, was the same levels the other groups in the game worked under. Also, I noticed that many of the friends of TPTB took everything personally and had the attitude of how dare you or anyone question this amazing work. The best one I got from a not so long ago, 15 years back, was that those of us who haven't had anything published shouldn't be telling those who have what is wrong with the product. The hubris of that statement explains a lot of why and how of some of the other drama I have heard about happening behind the scenes at FanPro and CGL. And in a way, we are seeing it here in this discussion as well.

IT does seem that is indeed what is being suggested that Katherine was on her way to being a combination of Amaris and every other insane nutjob in the game rolled into one character, because after all that trope is never over played or abused in writing.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
05/23/22 02:45 PM
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So the double of Joshua, I could have sworn we covered this unless Requiem is ignoring anything he doesn't like, wait..., Victor didn't know about it at first, that was made VERY clear when it was brought to his attention. Hanse set it up to run like any other dark operations project, with a limited number of people knowing limited information about it.

Then I do believe he considered canceling and was talked out of it because if it was ended it could still mean war in the worst-case scenario or even worse in the long term, AT THE TIME, was the cutting off of weapons kits to rearm existing mechs so they could meet the Clans on a more even field of combat. I doubt Katherine would have ended it either if her advisors and other sycophants had explained it and how it would benefit her and her wants. She was never a leader, she was a puppet and a fool. She wanted to control and rule, Victor wanted neither of those.

Now I am a bit confused, why does it sound like we are giving his Alt any standing? It's fan-fiction, it's not canon, it's not even Apocryphal Product, which is NOT canon but has been minded for things to add into the canon leaving all of the other stuff not minded or taken as NOT canon in shape or idea.

(Really wish some would understand that just because TPTB takes an item from something and make it canon doesn't change the status of the rest of the publication. A PRIME example from Star Wars. Dark Horse Comics comes up with two Jedi of their own: Aayla Secura and Aayla Secura, old George himself likes BOTH so he tells Dark Horse hey I am going to use these in the next movies and such. Dark Horse is cool! Now that didn't make ANYTHING about the Dark Horse version of the two canon, OTHER THAN basic stuff, like name, species, things like that. The rest of the Dark Horse SW stuff IS NOT CANON nor was it Apocryphal. Really wish folks here would understand that.)
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
05/23/22 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Hey ghost rider, you ever get the impression some here have dictator fetishes? I mean I am getting serious "Notice me Senpai" vibes.



I prefer the title of Supreme Emporer and Onibous Beloved Savior and Ruler of all Life and Ideas. However, you can just call me Kaagin.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.


Edited by Karagin (05/23/22 02:48 PM)
ghostrider
05/23/22 04:59 PM
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No alt boost here. The statement was Katherine learned to pilot a mech to become leader of the FS portion of the FC. You can guess who came up with that. The wiki paste was to show that statement to be a lie. Funny how using the wiki shows just how little the rest of it is ignored in order to promote a lie. More then a few times, the posted location shows just how little canon information is actually used in arguing canon faults. It seems everything comes from the only viable solution to the games issues.

There is no one solution that covers it.

The term Bovine Excrement Administrator comes to mind about the only solution for canon issues comes to mind.

And I prefer the title of 'Lord Emperor of All' so you all have to address me as such.
Using holy terms just doesn't sound right, as I am not a religious figure, nor do I want to be.

As with all fan fiction, most have something worthwhile in them. Technically, the approved novels are fan fiction, as they bend and destroy some of the rules to get the story out, but a decent amount of them are entertaining. Either that, or the developers don't bother with reading them before print, and removing the crap that doesn't work in the game.

Another instance is during the 4th war with Kathil. The use of the energy transfers to take out a drop ship, but yet has never been used before or since is one of them. There has to be multiple worlds that could have set this up for anti ship defenses. Or powered a full ground based energy defense network in times of crisis.
Requiem
05/23/22 05:52 PM
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Quote:
so her wanted title of goddess of the FC would never have been done.



Nt: this includes information that some may find disturbing – due to the Alt Universe it promotes as an explanation of the question asked and answered – you have been warned.

Then why does the position of King / Queen’s Mother exist whereby they give up the throne – allow their child to rule – and yet they continue to support their child’s policies and procedures?

For Katherine to achieve her desired position of “Goddess” one would use Melissa’s popularity as a springboard to ascend to greater heights.

Melissa offered the throne to Victor, thus once Victor is no more there is nothing to suggest that she would not offer the throne to Katherine!

Once Katherine takes the throne (with her mother at her side) this will assist in ensuring a stable transition of power as well as a transition of love and adoration of the people. Also a heathy dose of sympathy for the loss of Victor in battle against the Clans – can also be used to reinvigorate the people in their fight against the Clans – whist also providing that common touch of yes we too have lost a loved one to these evil Clans – we must fight on together … kind of mentality throughout the FC … done correctly through the media / political assistants throughout the FC and yes Katherine’s popularity can rise to the position of “Goddess”.

How many times has media and a good backstory promoted someone to the limelight as vastly influential and respected person to whom the majority of the leaders of the world and their institutions have flocked to support … there is one like this right now, but he is a man, with a beautiful woman in the position this will just intensify the outpouring of emotions.

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Where in the history of the IS did a leader that was a pilot, never step back into the unit they were trained to use, and enter combat once becoming leader?



Would Peter Davion (2899-2961) be considered?

Still does not change the fact – for a leader of a vast stella empire to lead they must do so from the C&C bunker – they have no point being on the front line whatsoever as being there just distracts from the mission and undermines the regional chain of command, to which the local forces have developed over a long period of time.

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What good is learning to fight when you will be bound to C&C?



We all have our positions in war. For some that is the front lines – others rear echelon logistics – and others command.

We all have our crosses to bear, some more than others, this is the duty of being the Ruler – they no longer have the duty to command on the front lines – their duty is to command over all! – which is a far more arduous and time-consuming task!

Or should David Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in Europe added to his position to command the Big Red One? Or for that matter should he have included in his position as President of the United States (53-61) the position of Commander of the Big Red One in addition to that of his duty as President?

So what good is learning to fight? – it enabled him to take command in Europe during WW2 and lead the Allies to Victory – and it enabled him to become President and lead the Free World – both positions of high command.

So can you see the absurdity of adding in Commander of the Big Red One at both of these two critical junctions in his life?

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As for what good is a leader in a war, when they don’t know the first thing about war?



This is why the military provides civilian leaders with experts to assist them in their decision making.

How many US Presidents have never seen a day’s combat and yet have led their forces into battle or for that matter other leaders … How about Franklin D Roosevelt …. Who was only the Assistant Secretary to the Navy. Or how about Margaret Thatcher?

So stop and Really think about it.

You cannot have a Leader of a House micromanaging war zones … in command you have to trust your regional commanders to do their job.

Should Roosevelt have taken the aircraft carriers out during Midway – rather than trusting Nimitz as the two had differing views of the situation.

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He lost them to unknown circumstances showing up.



Poor diddums Victor, it wasn’t his fault …. Sorry but Truman war correct “when you are a minister, the buck stops with you.” Attempting to place blame on “unknown circumstances” is just a cop out!

They were in command thus the responsibility falls to them.

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how could he remain in the field and not come back for the funeral?



And this has been going on for how long now in the media … why did that Governor leave the worst snow storm in history to go to Hawaii? …. Every media organisation would have asked this … they were just getting ahead of the news cycle ….

Also where is the crime here? It is perception of facts only … a reality that Victor should have had drummed into him since the first day he could understand the concept – there are always different factions at court each vying for power - to survive you have to understand this at a VERY young age if you are part of the Royal Family …..

And if Victor didn’t understand this it just demonstrates that the writers also didn’t understand and really should have been let go for not undertaking appropriate research.

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I can say the Wolverines were never set up, but actually did the bombing. Why?



As stated many times can you please read the novel first! Or how about the wiki notes?

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolverine

“Unbeknownst to Clan Wolverine, Clan Widowmaker operatives had stolen one of the nuclear devices from the Brian Cache, and prepared it for detonation in their capital city of Great Hope. Khan Jason Karrige then activated the device when he, the ilKhan, and Clan Widowmaker forces approached the city.”

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You mean having Melissa still alive, would have set off the chain of events for a civil war even if his brother was kidnapped? And you suggest no logic flaws in the alt?



Chain of events: Canon

Building destroyed by explosives – no body found – Victor assumes that it is the work of his sister – he then goes on media blaming her for his brother’s death and declares war on her … ie he uses the supposed death of his brother as a pretext to start a war … “ie. what we have here is another Gulf of Tonkin incident.”

Chain of events: Alt Universe

Building destroyed by explosives – no body found – Victor initially assumes that it is the work of his sister – However, a detective on the ground actually finds evidence as to WOB kidnapping his brother …. So what does Victor do next, actually go after the true culprits or go after his sister and white wash the whole thing?

Also if Melissa was still alive wouldn’t she ask for calm until all the facts are in before some one leaps off a cliff and there is no turning back?

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punish criminals such as Kali Liao



Again you really need to do your research first,

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kali_Liao

“She ordered the Black May attacks in 3062, for which she was tried and convicted in a Star League court and sentenced to internal exile on Highspire.”

And

“On 30 November 3073, Death Commandos arrested Duchess Kali Liao on Highspire and transported her to Sian to be presented to the Chancellor. Kali Liao was presented to Sun-Tzu Liao on 28 December and formally charged with collaborating with the enemy and treason.”

Thus we see the return of the war crimes court that was so lacking in the game, and also that members of your own House are still answerable to their Liege Lord for their actions.

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That refers to her entire actions of abusing everything she could to obtain that power.



And ruin her image as the darling of the media as well as a pacifist and the successor of her mothers ambition for peace … sorry but no!

As a ruler she is the gauntlet within the silk glove, an image she strives to protect!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
05/23/22 07:21 PM
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Quote:


Another instance is during the 4th war with Kathil. The use of the energy transfers to take out a drop ship, but yet has never been used before or since is one of them. There has to be multiple worlds that could have set this up for anti ship defenses. Or powered a full ground based energy defense network in times of crisis.



Having such systems, even if just on important worlds SHOULD have been standard in the game since day one, the idea is very 80s. Cough Ion Cannon Cough Cough.

The idea that a novel tells a story is the important part, it can bend the game rules to make things work for the story, however, using jump jets to kill a major character, poor writing, using nukes that then turn into FAE bombs poor writing, etc...or better lazy writing. You want to pull the reader into the story and make them feel like they are a part of it, yet many of the novels fail at that part and fail badly.

Katherine had major physiologic issues, and really that part should have been brought up by Victor as the Civil War Story went on, yet we never once saw anything that showed her in that kind of light, no major trauma that would set her on the path to regicide, none of the normal tells that go with that kind of behavior. As for using the wiki...well like all wikis it's open-source and is as honest as the ones putting the information in it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
05/23/22 07:50 PM
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The alt version, which has no real place in this canon conversation, is flawed for several reasons. First being Katherine was so full of herself, the idea that she needed Melissa is wrong. Second, she needed to erase Melissa from the universe in order to hurt Victor. As Katherine has been shown to not care about anyone but herself, there is no way she would share the spotlight with anyone. A fact that has been constantly ignored.

The fact is governments run even without their leader being in C&C. There were more then a few times that a leader was not chosen to fill the position, and yet the nation still existed and functioned afterwards. For more then a few reigns, the government ran despite the leader. Had the leader actually run things like they wanted to, the nation would cease to exist. This is true for history as well as the game.

Did Eisenhower come from a heirarch line of warriors, were you are expected to learn to fight, and do so to prove you can command the troops properly? No. He was elected to rule, not part of a family line. Traditions dictate whether a ruler is considered worthy or not. You must earn the respect of your military. Otherwise, you are more likely to have them perform far below their abilities.
In the old times, a person could become the captain of the guard by saving a royal member. This did not mean they were able to rule even the guards.
And those born and trained did not mean they could rule either.

So Katherine was the reason the Falcons decided to invade the LA? It was her fault for being in charge when the FWL invaded because of Joshua? We know it was her fault the entire chain of events happened. She chose to undermine the entire FC with her hunger for power.

Where was it stated that the Wolverines were cleared of the charges of the nuke? They weren't in a court of law. The books said they were, but according to you, a court had to decide innocence or guilty. Or is the fact Katherine was guilty of killing her mother, but does that follow the same concept as this does?

So Victor would have set off the Civil war if Melissa wasn't killed by Katherine? This is what you are saying? The response was about Peters abduction, which probably wouldn't have happened if Melissa wasn't killed. The fact that the entire chain of events after Melissa's death would not have happened. It couldn't have happened. Katherine would not have the LC throne to even begin to use against Victor.
Or did the blue monkey swing by the yellow bird screaming 'Darth Vader is here'?

Did Kali actual pay for the crimes? Or did she get a slap on the wrist and come back for more? She was not executed for her crimes and returned to commit even more. Yeah, Real punishment there.

The actual print says Katherine was abusing her powers.
Incase you didn't read this part in the wiki or the post: Katherine generally allowed her military commanders free rein to prosecute the war against her brother's supporters as they saw fit, as she focused on rooting out insurrectionists and other supporters of her brother. Arrests, sessions of torture and executions became common events, especially on New Avalon.[7]
She also demonstrated distinct signs of pettiness and cruelty, regularly using her nation's resources to persecute anyone she deemed an enemy. This started with political opponents, but eventually came to include those staying neutral in the conflict between she and Victor, and even those she deemed "insufficiently loyal"
So yes. Since she had already purged a lot of the media reporting the truth, her image still was not the pacifist healer she wanted.
Once the truth got out, her image was ruined by her actions.
ghostrider
05/23/22 08:00 PM
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Just had a major thought about the history of the 1st war and the invasion of the FS.
The retcon of mobile HPGs would have removed the surprise attack that continued into the FS, as the main SL HPG network would not have been used, but the mobile HPG one would have. It would have been in use by a few branches of the government, with intel being the main one. This would allow information to be sent without the SL being able to 'listen' in. Even on warships, this would have told a better story of what was going on, as warships and even normal fleets, as well as worlds/systems relaying that information.
And they would be continuing to send information until they were all founds and taken.

So the unknown attack, would not have lasted more then a world or two in.

Given secret bases and such, mobile HPGs would be used there as well. So something like Camelot Command should have had a few stationed there, which was never found. As Comstar did not have the chance to destroy them, they would have been in the hands of Snord.
As they were never found in any caches either, there is a huge issue here.
Karagin
05/23/22 08:15 PM
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It sounds like this Alt has way too many Aliens Space Bats in it like the logic is only set to work one way. Like the trope that the only way BOTH Amris and the WoB pulled off their actions was because the Terran nobles and such were working with them. And while that might be true for some, not all would be, but that bit is not important because the majority would because well the Alien Space Bats said that has to happen or else the storyline doesn't work because logic would play into things, and prove that not all would be for this and would be against it.

Guess the Fed-Suns should have fallen during the 4th War since several of the nobles were running their own operations and playing everything off for their own outcome, same in the Combine.

Katherine didn't plan for all things, she tried to bully her way through things that didn't just go her way. There was no way she was getting to the next Frist Lord of the Second Star League, Yet, I am sure the Alt will tell us how all the other rulers wanted her to have it. We know Katherine had Omiko killed to cause her brother grief and to hamper his ability to command his forces.

A simple look at the actual history of the houses and one would see that not all the rulers were military trained, in fact, many had basic level training and quite a large number never fought a battle at all. So this idea that she was forced to do anything is crazy. She had her claim to the throne, she pressed it, and she caused the Civil War because of her lust for power and control. Did I mention she was a psychopath? Katherine did what all dictators do, she took control of anything that made her look bad or spoke out against her.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
05/23/22 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Just had a major thought about the history of the 1st war and the invasion of the FS.
The retcon of mobile HPGs would have removed the surprise attack that continued into the FS, as the main SL HPG network would not have been used, but the mobile HPG one would have. It would have been in use by a few branches of the government, with intel being the main one. This would allow information to be sent without the SL being able to 'listen' in. Even on warships, this would have told a better story of what was going on, as warships and even normal fleets, as well as worlds/systems relaying that information.
And they would be continuing to send information until they were all founds and taken.

So the unknown attack, would not have lasted more then a world or two in.

Given secret bases and such, mobile HPGs would be used there as well. So something like Camelot Command should have had a few stationed there, which was never found. As Comstar did not have the chance to destroy them, they would have been in the hands of Snord.
As they were never found in any caches either, there is a huge issue here.



The mobile HPGs themselves are not the issue, it's how they are explained, that is the issue. The would have been a big head ache for ComStar, the idea of someone finding one or a former SLDF unit taking their when they joined a House military, yeah that is the issue here. The Houses should have at least gotten a couple and we all know that even back then, those things would have been pulled from the front lines and into research. The kind of research that has layers of protection and such that ComStar would still be looking for these things right up to and through the Clan Invasion.

Also remember, the Clans had HPGs on their warships.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
05/24/22 12:41 AM
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The idea of when the FS was invaded by the DC at the start of the 1st war, suggested that the coms was in such a disarray, that the AFFS had no idea of what was going on, or so I am lead to believe.
If there were mobile HPGs in the actual timeline, they should have been used by the intel department, which would have reported the invasion even if the others didn't. This isn't black box concept, but actual equipment that wasn't SL spec ops only sort of thing.
This is why the retcon of items throws a shaky story into the toilet.

Had this been a thing when they first wrote the back story of the 1st war, it would have been different, at least enough to cover the mobile HPGs.
Ok, so the wiki suggests, but doesn't say completely, that the Mobile ones were TH/SL only. The concept of defecting units bringing them would definitely be a thing.
During the first war, it should be assumed the houses did research the main HPG networks, as the SL, meaning Comstar, was in the process of trying to rebuild the network. I would think during the Amaris war, some facilities were taken over and looked at, and blamed on the periphery. And this is not to say the SLDF did not use local labor to keep up the network.

One more thing about the question of the civil war if Melissa was still alive. Victor only started hating Katherine when he found out Katherine killed their mother. So the entire history would not be there. Katherine would never have gotten a hold of the LC, and Gemini would not have gone the way it did in canon.


Edited by ghostrider (05/24/22 12:44 AM)
Karagin
05/24/22 08:37 AM
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IF and I say IF Melissa was still alive, we know she had plans to step down and allow Victor to rule. Now if was still alive, she would have been a voice to keep some of Victor's second-guessing in check, add in Cox and others. Now the question is did she know about Gemni? Did Hanse fill her in? She might have been able to go directly to the fake and try to smooth things over or explain it away like the double was there to keep people from messing with or getting to Joshua. Which might, maybe, possibly cause things to not become a war. As far as a Civil War if Melissa was alive, I doubt it would have happened, not as we saw it. More of Ryan Steiner playing games and folks like the Sandvols doing similar. Which in turn sparks a limited Civil War. And we could wargame all that out to see the possible outcomes.

The HPGs, I have always thought that the ones in the Houses as the Star League fell would have been taken over very quickly by House forces, and that is why numerous times I have asked questions about similar traled questions. Now here is a better question, is the HPGs found on Terra or in the Sol System needed to make the whole network correctly?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
05/24/22 12:22 PM
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Interesting question. I can see both sides of that.
Keeping control of the network would be a priority, yet having everything shut down because of one relay sounds wrong as well.
Given the fact WOB took over the network, and nothing happened to the other stations, it would appear it did not have that option.
As the DC had a decent relationship with Comstar, they, along with the FC would have had some issues.

I don't know what happened with the network crashing during the dark ages time line, so can use the information given there on how the whole system went down.

Given the importance of Terra, wouldn't they have multiple stations on world?
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