ghostrider
10/21/21 09:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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It seems some have the idea that everyone in a nation is completely dedicated to the nation surviving, even if it means they suffer. This is no where close to the truth.
The rich nobles and large corporations will be doing a lot to as much as they can to prevent from paying taxes as well as letting others gain advantages against their companies. They will pay those in the government to write laws that allow them large subsidies as well as lower taxes then everyone else, while trying to rig it so the taxpayers pay for it all, as well as pay the rich to leave them alone.
This includes overcharging for uses of things like Jumpships to do anything that does not benefit the company greatly is but one way they do this. The 50k fee is NOT law, but agreed upon by most. If your need is dire, and no one else has a ship around, you can expect to pay more or go without. Conscription of those ships only goes so far, and taking a ship not part of your nation is akin to hijacking. In the end, taking ships you don't pay for will get you black listed or start having to pay more for use, as those ships start doing what they can to make sure you don't just seize the ships.
Tech, and even building materials is another big thing that is misunderstood at times.
Those in power do NOT want other worlds growing strong enough to resist or compete against your power base, so will do things like sabotage your research, as well as water purifiers and such to make who ever is supporting a rival group to pay even more, hoping to force them to give up, or go broke. Even bribing law enforcement to at least delay, if not out right seize, shipments is but one tactic that would be used. And this is by others in your own nation, much less from another nation.
A good example of this is using states within a nation today. Cities in a state are not equal, and they will never be. And yet, it is suggested that this is not true. Saying each one would be at the same level as others is fictional at best, outright lying to oneself at worse.
A lot of worlds will never be self sufficient either. Some needed resources are none existent, or hard to find/extract because of location. The concept of water being a good one. The first example is to suggest the ice ships would be able to keep up with demands of all the worlds and would be cheap enough to use. If this was true, then all worlds would have oceans of fresh water on them before long. The fact water purifiers are far cheaper shows why this is false. To move ice between systems requires something the game has basically ignored or banned. The ability to co-ordinate a set of jumpships to jump at the same time, to an exact location without destroying an object in the mix of jump fields. If they did keep this, then some would 'game' the system. Why couldn't you just a station full of things in those fields? Same with the Yardships. Imagine how many regiments of units you could jump at one time.
Set up right, and you could bring in dozens of dropships at one time.
The tech on worlds is another misunderstood issue. Having the tech to fix a tractor is not the same tech as to smelting the ores and making one from the ground up. Some of the things on the same level of tech requires different methods of doing. Repairing a laser is not the same thing as making it from scratch. You could build a laser to use as a pointer, but that does not mean you could build one to melt off armor off a mech. Quality being an issue.
Now a major issue. The government does NOT want all worlds to be self sufficient. To do so, means you believe no one will try to cede from the nation or take over. To allow every company in a state to make something like the advanced armor on a tank, or the uranium depleted rounds for bullets is asking for someone to try and become the boss since they have the equipment to do so. One quick coup and you can lose dozens to hundreds of worlds quickly. There are always people that think they can do things better then those in charge now. Sometimes, this is true. Other times, they don't know everything they need to, and screw things up even worse.
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ghostrider
10/22/21 12:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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Some problems arise when every world is 'self sufficient' and can't be ignored.
The 1st succession war when the DC invaded the FS, worlds refused to send troops to where the fighting was going on, as they believed those worlds were able to handle any invaders. This same attitude would be a main one, as each world would think they do not need to send their money out to help anyone else.
The idea that everything can be built on every world ignores things like copyrights and the concept of supply and demand. A desert world will never had enough water on it to keep major populations alive. The people being able to build certain items will not be on every world. They will head towards where the jobs in the fields are. So someone that can build a fusion power plant would not be living on a world that does not produce them. Repair technicians know a lot about how to fix things, but not how to actually build them. Then you have specialized equipment that is required to build some items. Instead of having to have troops stationed everywhere, leading to a lack of troops to amass for things like invasions or helping defend worlds, you have them spread so far and wide, they are almost ineffective. Then comes in the need for supply and demand. Those that own businesses and those specialized workers, demand you pay them well. This does not happen if the markets are flooded with products they make. Basic economics at work. The idea of keeping YOUR people working, means you have to limit what others are doing in your area of work. You send specialized workers to areas when things need to be fixed. Much like what businesses do today. They send them to other cities to fix things, not have them all living there. This is very much like transportation of good. Main warehouses in a strategic location, then ship as needed to other areas.
Worlds that require the main government to support it are money makers. The worlds need the government to keep it alive, so are not likely to revolt or make huge demands. They send out more money then they would need to if they weren't relying on others for survival.
Also, it is important to understand that just because you can use something like a DVD player, does not mean you are tech savvy. If you don't know how to build it from digging the materials out of the ground to smelting and such, means your actual tech level is less then you believe. For most, the concept of how the DVD works is something they don't understand.
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ghostrider
10/22/21 07:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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Taking a look at the world today, a lot of the high tech nations have most of their high tech concentrated in specific areas, even in specific regions of a city. A good example of this is the computer chip issues going on right now. A large portion of them are made in Asia. As a large chunk of the resources needed to make them are owned by a single faction, there is a problem of supply being met. Yet if the fiction of having facilities across the high tech nations were actually true, then the shortage would not be happening.
The area call Silicon Valley is not because of them mining Silicon there. It used to be the main area that computer tech was designed at. The city I live it has nothing to even begin to come close to this. So the suggestion that everything is equal falls flat.
This is just like suggesting you can grow tropical foods in Antarctica outside of greenhouses.
In the game, the concept of having a small area specialized in making high tech, or even moderate tech is justified by this. Where a world might be considered C or even B in tech, this does NOT mean the entire world is able to make it. A region might be able to make a half track, they may not be able to make a jet aircraft.
The game is set up so trade is required between worlds for all to survive. If every world had what they wanted and needed, this concept would be destroyed. There would be no reason to even need to import or export anything. The need for anything other then a local defense pact would be unnecessary. Larger states would not be needed, so would fall to revolts as each world would refuse to keep those offworld rich because of things like taxes. They would keep the funds on world to fill their pockets.
This eventually leads to the game being pointless as the defenders would have heavily invested in anti ship technology and devices, so you could not even get close enough to bomb a world, much less land forces to invade it.
I, myself, had been looking into this very concept, and was enlightened about what it does to the game. I want to play with big stompy mechs, not fighter squadrons and warships.
One trend that I can see becoming an issue, is with power armor replacing tanks and such. Except for very limited ammo supplies, the power armor is superior to tanks in most, but not all, aspects.
But with respects to the realities of the game, having a ship yard, as well as every manufacturing plant required to keep a large, high tech military around is just not economical or feasible.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 12:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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One issue the game seems to miss, but then it wasn't meant to deal with, large economic issues.
The development of weapons doesn't seem to have issues on sticking to budgets. In large, militaries in the game always seem to have enough equipment for small invasions and such, yet only when there is a plot stating otherwise, is this not the case.
The fact is, the taxes taken in by the governments does not all go towards what it should. Nobles funnel off chunks for their personal coffers, as well as businesses with government contracts soaking up extra funds as well.
But one thing that is missed, is the fact that those taxes are meant for things other then military. This is a large issue a few seem to miss.
Keeping infrastructure going on worlds as well as expanding them is but a part of where taxes go. As the LC is supposed to have the greatest economy going, you would think they could have plenty of jumpships, dropships, as well as mechs, even the heaviest ones in the thousands. Yet this is not so. When the social generals ran things, it is easy to see why border industries didn't do so well staying in one piece, but even this doesn't say it all. New shipyards would fall under the navy, which does not seem to have the pull the land forces does. Even buy equipment from other nations would happen a lot, yet they still seem to lack.
Each world has it's own needs and desires. They use some of the taxes taken in for militia units. The idea that they receive billions in taxes and spend it all on military seems to be what some see. This is not true. So many things are required to keep a world going beyond just military. Keeping fresh water and food is the main one that seems to be forgotten. The roads, fuel, as fusion engines are NOT in abundance to be used everywhere for power. They would be one of the first things stripped when a raid happens. The parts could be used in so many things.
The areas around the governors mansions and the rich area would be well kept, soaking up more money, and poorer locations being left behind.
This ties into the tech distribution issue as well. The world might be tech B, but there will be large areas that are tech C and D, while specific areas might even reach into tech A. Money has a lot to say about this. If you can't afford a shovel, you can't afford the big farming Combine.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 12:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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More things the game doesn't deal with is things like the cost of rebuilding after combat.
Using real life events, just natural disasters, cost billions to rebuild after. Sometimes, that is in a single city. Now spread that out across a world or several worlds. Combat will destroy things just as quickly, and for some things, more completely.
One thing that has come up is a question of if the entire foundation of buildings hit by PPC and Laser fire would have to be replaced, due to the high heat melting the rebar used in those structures. I don't know, but would like some information on if this is needed.
So an invasion could very well cost trillions to rebuild, and this is without counting military assets. Replacing dropships can do the same thing. Yes, combat does damage and destroy them as well, since they are used for offense and defense.
This also is why building new forces is a problem. Only so many things are built, and some of them get destroyed in combat, and for some, just failures. A spheriod trying to land loses thrust from one of it's engines, may well destroy the ship, everything in it, and even where it was trying to land.
So the outcome of this is that there isn't an unlimited fund to expand the armies of a nation.
The above examples do not even take into account that some resources will have to be shipped in for building and rebuilding. Yes, some items will have to be shipped in, especially when combat is involved.
You can NOT build a landing area while trying to wait for a local supply company to get you the materials. The owning house will make sure that does not happen, hampering your trying to establish a stronghold. This will even include destroying the manufacturing site if necessary.
Yes, this will happen, especially if the defenders need time to get more help.
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Karagin
10/25/21 04:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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They do kind of cover the cost of rebuilding after combat, in that many worlds just simply do not recover enough to be at the pre-war levels and that has caused some to collapse down to being abandoned.
Okay, if and let me stress that, if you are trying to play by following the canon setting then yes certain things will or will not happen, but let me ask this, how many truly play canon? By that, I mean how many play the characters we read out in the novels? Going to say none because none of us are the writers. Even if a person says yes I play canon and my mech unit, and right there, that means you don't play canon, your unit is not canon, thus anything you do is outside of canon.
So worrying about fighting in a city won't change how a battle comes out. I have mentioned before that trying to play as canon characters lends to one major issue, if you are run a battle with say Peter Davion in it, and he is killed, that means anything he did is not going to happen, yet we know it happens because outside of your battle, he is alive etc...
If a planet is contested and both sides are doing all they can to keep it, then something will become set, yes a beachhead or bridgehead (depending on context and which group it is) will start working to build their own landing areas if they didn't take the local starport.
Something to consider, and it's one thing that irks me about the game setting, planets are huge. Your forces might control two out five continents, so tell me how you are going to stop my guys from building a new starport on the other side of the world? The idea that a single company or lance (insert Clan equivalent as needed) is all that is needed to defend a world is insane. And I find it to be one of the biggest flaws in the game.
The Houses have enough resources to fund their armies, what they don't have is enough to fully project their ability to conquer their neighbors. Let's look at House Davion. They took a chunk out of the CapCon, and held their own again Kurtia, then roughly 10 years later they hit the Combine across a wider front and didn't manage to more than grab a few worlds and find out that the Combine wasn't going to roll over and play dead.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 07:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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Truly any game played is going to change something in the canon line. That is fact. Simply just defeating or even hurting a unit will do so. That unit may fail because they are not at full strength or tied up in a fight with your unit instead of saving a battle elsewhere.
I do agree that playing characters in the storyline doesn't tend to end well for anything dealing with canon. The character doesn't have to die in order to effectively be pulled out of the future events. Simply losing an arm or a leg will do so. Being tied up in recovery will do so. This works in the other way as well. The Kell hounds battle with Kurita, where Morgan battle the one Kuritan (can't remember his name right now) could have killed each other, and all the events afterwards would be changed. The Kuritan death would have meant Genosha would never have come about.
The military losses tend to get fixed, but not quickly, and losing talent is hard to replace. The concept was to show that for those that believe you wave your hand and it magically fixes everything, is false. One unit can change the future of things. That one unit may be the recon patrol to spot the enemy sneaking in, or make that head shot killing the enemy commander.
The cost to replace a unit means that money is not creating a new lance.
With the arms race, units should go up in price dramatically, as all are looking for the extra units. Yet, the only thing that changes prices seems to be higher tech. Even salvage units don't seem to change much.
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ghostrider
10/26/21 04:14 PM
45.51.181.83
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Control of a section does not mean it is absolutely immune to raids and such. I do agree the term being in control makes it sound like nothing can happen. The problem with this is the fact that nations control a lot of worlds, yet can not prevent things from happening.
This is why raids happen verses invasions. Raids should hit multiple targets across a world, in order to scatter defending units sent out to deal with them. Responses are tested to see who and where the defenders are sent from.
Special forces tend to be sent in to deal with things, though some aerofighter runs can take down work progress on areas.
But I do agree that if you have control over an area, and have the resources, there is little, besides a full out assault, that can completely stop building something.
But the fact that non military assets are slow to be rebuilt, if ever, shows a problem with the game and people's perception. The unlimited funds and resources issue has people thinking the nations have a vast reserve of unused mechs and such, so they can just build a sprawling factory in a few weeks, and it will survive for hundreds of years.
And don't even consider how resources get to and from that factory. The infrastructure, like mines to support foundries as well as the vehicles needed to move the resources, if the factory is not built on top of the mine, which still needs some vehicles, are ignored.
For some factories, resources are needed to be imported from off world. So shuttles and dropships are needed at least. Out of system supplies means jumpships on top of that.
The idea of having regiments of infantry formed on a world with 10k people is such a fantasy. Even having 1m people is pushing it. Those people might be like the Coast Guard, where they have regular jobs, but fill in military units when needed. This is about the best that will happen. A standing regiment is not going to happen. Now realize, this is just the world in question, not having outside help to do so.
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ghostrider
10/27/21 12:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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The game does not really deal well with the regular forces stationed on worlds.
It is focused on mech on mech fights. That is where the main player base wants to focus on. Few want to chew thru hordes of vehicles and infantry to play the game, even though all worlds would at least some infantry.
In an untouched scenario, having a large military with pristine machines, as wanted numbers is NOT what the game portraits.
A single company, 12 mechs, at an average of 5 mil per unit is 60 mil. This is just to buy those units. As a lot of worlds will have limited funds to cover all their expenses, this would not be done. All the vehicles and such needed to just keep infantry in supplies would eat thru a lot of the budget. The world today is a bit out of whack with the super powers spending. Try using figures for countries that don't have 200+ naval vessel fleets, and hundreds of millions to billion dollar aircraft. Going back to the 5 mil per vehicle, most countries could not afford 100 vehicles. A regiment in the game is 108 for mechs and vehicles.
This does not cover the cost of the pilots, techs, base personnel, and other necessary things to keep them running.
This does not cover the buildings required to house the machines as well as the personnel required to run it all. We are not even gotten into atmospheric aircraft or in the game, Aerofighters.
As planetary budgets have to deal with far more then just military defense, there is just not enough money to have huge armies on world without off world financial support.
Now some will suggest that this could be built up within a few years, a piece at a time. Which is true. But the name of the game for the nations in the game is raids are meant to push those concepts out the window. Taking out a single tank regiment would cost over 500 mil with just vehicle replacement costs. Now add in other damage, including having to train up new pilots and such, and it will be years before you are close to full strength. And that is IF the enemy doesn't hit you again, or disrupt any shipments coming in. Taking out factories is almost number one priority on worlds that build their own units.
Which the concept of a raid is counter to the idea that all attacks have to take the enemy's factories.
Raids is a good way to keep your enemy trying to catch back up, while you get ahead. They have to pay for, as well as supply worlds that can't make it on their own because of damage done in raids. It forces the enemy to spread out units to cover worlds that can't do it themselves.
Damage to infrastructure reduces a worlds ability to rebuild, or even make money to try and do so. It is far worse when you rely on off world supplies, especially when your transports are hit.
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Karagin
10/27/21 01:17 AM
70.118.172.64
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I know what the game portrays, the reality is the logic still makes no sense. The idea though that you are going to field enough mechs to defend every world is not going to work either according to the game, so yes they should be wading through hordes of infantry and vehicles. Short of hitting a world of importance, you are not going to find Podunk guarded by lance mechs.
Taking out factories is great, but here's the catch, how soon before the smarter House leaders move the factories away from the border regions? Also, smart companies don't have all their eggs in one basket. Raids work, but they have the drawbacks of you spend more to gain next to nothing. How soon before the economics of just taking and holding the planet outweigh the cost of raiding?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
11/03/21 11:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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As the game is set up to allow players to have fun, which means normally units are available to them, some take it as that means the story line follows the same principle. This is not true. If it was, then the DC would have taken out the FS in the first war, and the LC would eventually out build the rest. Even more so, the SL should not have fallen, as they would not have had to 'rely' on the RWR forces to secure the TH.
This also means that not a single unit the SL put in the field would have had all low tech parts in them. As the story went, high tech units were not as wide spread in the SLDF as it should have been. Given the periphery war, it also means the periphery would actually be in better shape then the houses during the Amaris war. Those units left on the battle field would have given the periphery high tech parts, which would have been used in their units.
I would suspect that a LOT of parts storages would have been destroyed in order to prevent this from happening, but those would be replacement parts for units the SLDF repaired.
As the game is not set up as an economic scenario, the concept that the military did not have an unlimited budget gains power. Given the fact that the SLDF required help from the houses to maintain a large military, this is obviously not true. Given the SDS, the SLDF did have a high degree of remote control to their name, it is very possible they could have had normal ground units, even if not mechs, that could be programmed or controlled by remote, reducing the issues of needing pilots. A single person could control a unit of four without too much of a problem. Laser coms being more reliable, as most ECM systems can't do much other then physically get in the way. Yes, smoke and such would work, but circumstances come into play here.
Basic routines, like used in most combat formations can be done. Alpha 5 Attack routine with enemy C being main target would be used to make sure the units did have something to do, even if out of touch. The issue here is the game was not set up to use this concept. Given the time it was made, the idea of a remote unit that could do this was restricted to cruise missiles and such, basically a one time use item.
As the game DOES have robot security in it from the original mechwarrior RPG, but never got deep into it, they gave the basic concepts the possibility to the game.
This is also where a world could have a high tech rating, yet not really have the items spread across the world. Isolated areas would have extremely high tech, while most of the rest are lucky to have middle range tech.
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ghostrider
11/07/21 03:25 AM
45.51.181.83
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I am not sure if others think this way or not, but I will say this about the setting of the game.
I believe the war has created an effect like several war torn countries in the real world. The high tech is available, they just don't have the means to get and use it.
Half bombed out cities, where people are just trying to fix things, and constantly get hit yet again. The have the ability to get a water purifier in, but it will cost a good chunk of their very limited budget.
I would believe some spots or even entire worlds are set up as bait for the enemy to hit. Left under defended, so the enemy hits there instead of where it might hurt a lot, like factories they need, or maybe even nobles vacation homes.
But some seem to misunderstand that raids are not the same as invasions. The raids purpose can be meer destruction and demoralization of the population of a nation, to trying to force the enemy to dedicate forces to protect that area from further attacks, thinning out defenders elsewhere.
This can really become an issue when the raids target building materials so importing is the only way to get anywhere.
One aspect of the game that has always been a large hole is the budget of realms. Given the real world and how it spends the taxes that come in, the entire cost of war is lower then it should be. In 3025, the Atlas is one of the most expensive machines, yet with the 5 dollar exchange rate said in the books, that puts the Atlas at almost 50 mil. That doesn't even come close to the weapons of today for more then a few things. Some aircraft today cost billions, not millions. Even back when the game came out, weapons of war were comparably more expensive then the game. And I have not heard anything about the prices skyrocketing when wars are on. Just shortages.
I know this is a war game, so economics isn't vital, but in the stories and back ground, there should be something said on why things are that dire.
6 billion dollars was moved from the military in the U.S. and that was just money they used for building schools and such. This is a single country in the world. Supply and demand would mean more then a few nations would have a very hard time trying to get mechs for their forces, unless the government themselves owned and ran the factories. The rich nations would buy up all the units, leaving nothing for the poorer nations.
Again. It is Battletech, not Battle Economics 101.
Not sure why I am doing this thread. Most already know what is accurate, and what is a bit opinionated on my part.
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ghostrider
11/16/21 11:19 AM
45.51.181.83
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The concept of pirates has come up with some believing they would not exist for long due to the difference in power between any on band and the nations.
This is correct only in the total military power of each side, but ignores some facts on why they continue to exist.
The first being money. No matter what most think, money is the main factor for anyone becoming a pirate. There are others, such as trying to get revenge on high level figures for some wrong doing, or implied wrong doing. But money is a big one. The feeling of power is another major factor.
But the reason why known pirates continue to operate falls back to the broken idea that governments don't negotiate or tolerate such organizations.
For some, they actively support the pirates, as long as they are working against their enemies, foreign or domestic. Yes, egos do come into play as one ruler within a realm is trying to gain power at the cost of others losing it. Example: A new company is trying to establish itself in the mech market, but Defiance is using it's power to prevent that company from getting any sort of contracts. So for a few million C-bills, a raid can be set up to hit Defiance to reduce their output, and force the military to find another source of mechs until the repairs can be done. The lord of the world the company's plant is on will look the other way with a good donation, as the new company will increase employment as well as funds coming into his world.
Another false concept is the no negotiations or tolerance of pirates. Alls it takes is for a minor lord or rich family to have one of their relatives taken hostage, to start the chain of events that allow pirates to exist and even thrive in an area. This means the world leader will look the other way while the pirates do small raids, building up funds and money, until they can catch a bigger prize. Even blackmail with sensitive or personal materials will do the trick. Even local militia can turn pirate and be tolerated on one world, as long as they hit other worlds.
For some, the concept of the piranha principle doesn't exist. This issue is real. You have only so many troops, and the larger you get, the harder it is to cover everything. And others are trying to do the same thing.
Being part of the same nation does NOT mean you are supporting others in that nation. For your organization to be strong, you can not have others that can bully you or even contradict you. As long as you pay lip service to the ruler of the realm, and look loyal, most will not bother with looking deep into your doings. For some, simple bribes and blackmail prevent or hinder such issues.
After a while, the pirates have a better force then local militias or planet garrisons. They have their access to prevent detection when coming in, and can overwhelm local forces. The world may still have more forces then the pirates, but the pirates taken what they can and get out. They were not looking to hold territory, like most governments are.
Now the piranha effect kicks in. In order to move against the pirates, the world leader has to pull forces from other areas, which in turn opens that up to being attacked. A well organized pirate band has someone inside the government to warn them if something does get sent for them. But the basic philosophy is get in, steal what you can, and get out. Hopefully without a fight. It is only after you are so successful, that the local ruler being blackmailed, can't prevent the counter strike. It may well cost them the lives of their family that is imprisoned by the pirates, or their secrets revealed, if the pirates believe the person turned them in.
If I missed something, or am inaccurate, I would like to hear about it.
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Karagin
11/16/21 02:03 PM
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Piracy and bandits will exist in the Inner Sphere for three reasons:
1. It's easier to steal things than to buy them. And then you can resell them at higher markups, thus making money.
2. Politics. The activity of these groups allows the different powers, be it a house or a corperation, to do things that would normally cause MASSIVE and MAJOR diplomatic issues and incidents.
3. Revenge. Many groups will see slights by their own political leaders as a call to rebel, and when those fail, the rebels need to go somewhere and rebuild, thus off to the edges of known space and then the raiding starts and hijackings, etc...which then feeds the other two above.
For those who claim these groups won't exist, clearly have NOT read the backstory history of the Houses and other minor groups.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/17/22 12:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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It just dawned on me that worlds like Hesperus are said to be unable to produce enough food for the population, and it was suggested that the factory workers were taken offworld. Now the question is taken where?
When the game first came out, functioning orbital habitats were extremely rare. But the real issue comes about with the fact that food and water were the issue, not a lack of housing.
In a habitat, this doesn't change this fact either.
The solution would be try and grow the food in orbit, if you were not going to import it.
This is one reason why the idea of a self sufficient world is uncommon in the game.
There would have been more that met this criteria during the SL time, but the succession wars removed a lot of this ability. Weither thru nuking water sources, or using chemical weapons to poison them, on up to leaving the entire world unihabitable. For some, the game suggests resources like ores ran out.
This is not saying metal ores is absolutely necessary to create a self sufficient world, but it does limit it to a very low tech one.
The fact is, there are more then a few worlds that are not totally self sufficient. The idea that high tech is required to be self sufficient is a problem. For worlds that need water purifiers, this would be correct. For others, it is a luxury, but not needed.
Trade, or at the very least, supply runs is necessary in the IS. There is no way to get around it. As most organizations will stop trying to support a colony(world) that is not profitable for them, the people living there would have to trade for necessities.
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Karagin
01/17/22 01:45 AM
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The idea that some worlds need more food than make is common in all sci-fi settings that have vast planetary empires. How they deal with this varies. Some use massive imports which leads to smuggling and other things that play into overall story arcs that we would be reading about or watching. Others leave it as a background issue that might come from time to time.
IN this game, it's mentioned and then kind of gets the mixed treatment, it's there, and it's a plot point but it's not one that is often even mentioned or cared about unless an author needs it for a plot point. Now that could be something a GM runs with for an adventure for his gaming group or it could be something that is also used as something the players hear about in passing at bar or spaceport news show.
There is mention in the original Periphery sourcebook how two worlds less than a jump or two apart have issues that each could help the other with, if only they had regular jumpships bring in cargo dropship to tet the goods to both sides...even with all the super advances in tech, the many worlds of the stellar empires in this game won't have everything solved and saying that they take an entire factory complex OFF world daily bases only to bring hundreds of thousands (if not close to a million) people back the very next...yeah no. Just because someone wants to believe that doesn't mean it's an actual fact of the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
01/17/22 03:24 AM
101.185.96.199
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Hesperus - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hesperus
Population
3025 – 55,000
3068 – 55,000
Dropships eg Behemoth - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Behemoth_(DropShip_class)
Cargo 74,972 tons
Dropships and Jumpships book – initially Cargo was 85,000 tons
Resupplying a vital centre such as Hesperus really is not an issue once the size of the workforce is taken into consideration (above).
Where their employees jump to …
Best Bet … New Kyoto as 35.0 light years
Population 3067 – 5,467,000,000
SIL – B-B-B-A-C
Advanced World
Moderately Industrialized
Mostly Self Sufficient
High Output
Modest agriculture (subjective to population requirements?)
ie good living conditions to keep your employees happy prior to a fly out fly in rotation basis whist working!
Also New Kyoto would provide an excellent warehouse world to resupply Hesperus’ food requirements.
In all reality New Kyoto should be the regional Capitol world circa 3025 – 3068.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/17/22 12:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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So you have employees work their shift, then spends days going to the jump point, in order to go to another system. Spend days doing to another world, only to turn around and head back to the plant for their work shift?
This is not the standard sci fi games where you can jump to another system from orbit. You don't take an hour or so to do it.
The concept of sending your work force even off world doesn't make any sense, with the exception of maybe a rotation of like 6 months to a year to give them time away from the factory and world. And in this case, even that is unlikely.
It also doesn't address where they stay during the 'tour of duty' at the factory.
To do so means every 8 to 12 hours, you have another ship taking off/landing with employees of the factory. And the conga line means that each shift will require their own jumpship to take them to/from their 'habitat'.
This is far more wasteful then shipping in the necessities.
Kind of surprised this had to be said.
As a side note, it is kind of stupid that Defiance has not cut out additional terraces in the mountain ranges to expand living/farming/factory areas.
This is a great case for making the underground society set up.
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Karagin
01/17/22 12:52 PM
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Once again they would be doing no such thing, sorry but that total insanity even for a game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (01/17/22 12:53 PM)
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Requiem
01/17/22 02:23 PM
101.185.96.199
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Suggest researching oil rig workers first as an example - then consider expanding the time and staggering the shifts as per Jump-ship and drop-ship arrival / departure patterns - also consider the number of people that can be transported at any one time given drop-ship maximum passengers as removing the entire population on a sing le occasion cannot be considered viable.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
01/17/22 05:58 PM
70.118.172.64
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They may have tried to get more use of the land for farming have maxed things out, same for the oceans there as well. However the idea that fighting has happened the terrain is described as rocky etc...yeah some issues. However, they could be getting food in as part of business deals for spare parts, given that there are other factories making things other than mechs and weapons.
And no company is going to play the transit game of taking their workers off-world between shifts, not going to happen. Makes no sense from a cost side of the house OR a production side of the house. No matter how much one wants it to be that way it's not. And if that is not comprehensible, then I suggest reading through the actual sourcebooks again starting with the original House Books and reading the sections on the economics.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/17/22 09:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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Just realized a major flaw in shipping workers from world to world. Something that even the succession wars did not do.
You can shut down Defiance Industries by delaying or even destroying the jumpships carrying the workers. The ability to hijack the ships would avoid destroying the jumpships, while gaining the ship, and stopping work production at the factory.
Trying to protect the ships would mean having to divert even more assets to be on and with the ship(s) moving the people.
The same could be said about food shipments, but that is a bit easier to replace the knowledgeable workers.
Barring the jumpship method, hitting the dropships is another way.
A note about the Behemoth. It is NOT set up for moving people. The life support is set for the crew, and not much else. You would have to put more life support to even begin to transport passengers.
Orbital facilities would mandate moving workers off the facilities. There is just no room for apartments and extra resources like meals/drinks for the workers. So sending them planet side or to a habitat would be required. Part of why the unmanned facilities were considered better. No need for hordes of air breathers on board.
This is a good place to have robots not only working on whatever, but also guarding the facilities as well and maintaining it.
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Reiter
01/18/22 05:23 PM
107.185.100.70
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Most trade across space will be luxury items with high markup. Its prohibitively expensive to import food stuff light years just to leave it in a warehouse where it can go bad; where as the first priority for colonizing the planet would be implementing some kind of food production capabilities.
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ghostrider
01/18/22 07:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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It isn't in question about setting up food production as soon as possible.
The problem is there are worlds that food production is not possible without major equipment, such as hydroponic farms and such, which have to have food imported, with the prime example of Hesperus III, with Defiance industries on it. There are more around the IS that require importation of other items besides food. If food is not high on importation lists, then why is there such things as Bread Basket worlds?
As there are worlds that are not even close to Hesperus that say food and water needs to be imported, causes the issue to be questioned.
Mind you, this is not just a temporary importation, like a raid has taken down some farms or the water purifier, but have been done even before the fall of the SL.
The luxury items is not questioned as well. Some worlds will not produce luxury items worth shipping out. Others are well known for high end products. This is not counting military hardware, such as mechs or tanks.
If jumpships are only used for transporting luxury items and military equipment, then the worry of having them wiped out isn't as imperative as the games background makes it.
It also sounds odd that independent ships, such as miners and such would exist without being contracted by a corporation to buy such items.
The entire concept of mercs would be severely reduced as well, since they rely on commercial jumpships and even dropships to move around outside of employee units.
So wether it is economical or not, free jumpships moving around without a set path has to happen for the game to work properly.
As for costs, for a world, spending the money to import food or die doesn't have much of a choice.
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Karagin
01/19/22 01:08 AM
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The area I think we are missing is this, they have farms and such on the planet, they have too many people on the planet and the system itself, aka the remaining worlds/astroids/stations, etc... in the system also need to be feed. Thus food has to be brought in to meet the needs since the system can't feed itself successfully and still be a weapons manufacturing center.
Now, here is the catch, and it's something TPBT has FAILED do really address beyond say the Sol System, are we don't know how much about the rest of the system. Like what are the other planets like? Can the moons of the local gas giant (if there is one) be terraformed to cover agriculture-related stuff? How many of the other worlds have colonies or outposts on them. Small things like this would render a lot of things mute and give the background a better footing and prevent contradictions from popping up so often, as well as stop certain folks from grabbing these missing things and running wild.
Now I am not saying we need a full set of books cover every system, not that I would mind personally and I would buy them if they were written well, but we do need the major worlds that have the importance enough to be holding well you know the vital military-industrial complexes that keep the Houses in the business of war.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/19/22 01:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Hesperus system mentions several other locations besides where Defiance is located at. It is also possible those worlds did support enough farms to feed the system, so jumping in food wasn't necessary. At least one of the Gray Death Legion novels says that food needs to be imported into the Defiance plant. I want to say it was in one of the older books.
I do admit that the newer books may have changed this.
As for other worlds in that system, the successor wars may have destroyed the growing ability of the other planets in the system. I would also accept the statement is because a system wide shortage prevents any system grown food from making it to Defiance.
This may be true for more then a few other worlds/systems as well. WMD may well have made fertile grounds in those systems unusable. The concept of forgotten worlds may also cover some as well. Not possible in a system that is inhabited, to cover this potential misunderstanding.
I do believe the game may well have the supply issue put in there to make weaknesses in an otherwise 'impenetrable" set up. But then having fields across a world, does not stop the issue either. They would well be targeted in raids, so to force the enemy to devote ships to bringing in food and water, and reduce what is available to the military.
For those that believe food is not an issue, look up how much food an aircraft carrier goes thru in a day. The one I seen dealt with a 4000 personnel ship.
Also, a world may well be able to grow food, but it is deadly for the populace to eat. No way know to filter out the toxins at the moment.
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Karagin
01/19/22 07:23 PM
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An army of 50,000 may consume in one month as much as 4,500 tons (4.1 million kilograms) of food in order to be able to fight. Civilians need far more, those are hard facts, and even with things like prepared food, like MREs or similar it still won't last long. Add in attacks, shortages, natural disasters, etc...and the number will go up and down. It's all a numbers game.
Thinking it's not, well we all wish certain things would not be as they are. So Defiance has to bring in food from out of the system to meet the needs of their workers, they also know they can't ship them all-out system and back each day. So the cost will always play its' part. Pretty sure the overall cost is added to overall cost the mechs folks buy from the,.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/19/22 07:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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So of these reasons are ones I (and others) tossed out as points against the Word of Blake SUPER plot, and those were dismissed by TPTB and their buddies, yet the game has already proven in the older game facts that something just doesn't work, but we all know plot armor and favorites and folks who want to change things just because they don't like something, are going to win in the end.
Like how the Falcons strip all their forces off their worlds to fight on Terra, completely logical and military sense that doesn't make, but hey it happens...but fans aren't the writers or TPTB...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/20/22 10:07 AM
70.118.172.64
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Okay, so according to all the available information I can find, an average person in the US consumes 4 pounds of food a day, and over the course of a year, one ton. Now with that information, we can apply the math to the population of Hesperus and figure out what they are importing and I am willing to bet they are not moving people to the source of the food and back to the planet in shifts to work.
Now, let's add in some variables that will monkey up things, the planet has gone through HOW many owners since it was colonized? How many battles? How many nukes or WDMs used on it? How much environmental damage from attacks on the weapons plants and other factories? All of that can impact the amount of food they could grow or can grow. Add to this nightmare of numbers, how much land is devoted to the sprawling mech and weapons factories? That alone might be one of the reasons they are importing food.
As I stated above, this is a logical look at the BT universe, as with the other major events TPTB don't seem that concerned if their grand schemes of the story fit completely or neatly into the setting because they will adjust the setting to fit their needs, they can do that, they are ones writing the story, meanwhile, we the players have five choices, play it like it's given if one is trying to play canon, play it like it is but ignore canon and have fun, run your own adventure in the overall setting but stay off or away from canon settings and stick one or two planets to fight over. Just run mech on mech engagements and not worry about the background at all. OR finally, drop the whole thing and come up with your own setting and game.
All have merits of fun, and all can work for those that want things to go with their way of doing things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/20/22 12:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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With the concept of importing ice asteroids, there are biological issues that come with it. What is in the ice besides water? So even bringing down the ice asteroid does not mean it doesn't have to be purified.
With food, issues such as allergies to food comes to mind. Some people are lactose intolerant. So something as simple and Mac and Cheese might set off someone. Rice cakes are horrible due to the large amount of starch in them, which is really bad for someone with diabetes.
As the largest dedicated ships for cargo transport is NOT designed to move people, you run into issues here. To upgrade it to carry people means adding in rooms and air scrubbers/oxygen generators, as well as heating units.
With the example of the nukes, how much garbage is in the atmosphere that is hazardous or even deadly to a human when ingested? Besides the nuclear radiation.
But it comes down to even the most lush worlds may not be able to grow food for consumption due to things in the environment that can't be removed without a very long and expensive process.
This does tie into the discussion that the amount of dropships and jumpships is too low to sustain the IS as it needs more just to keep up with some of the major worlds, much less the minor ones, and have some left over for non scheduled runs, such as taking mercs to a specific system. Government transports would not be used, as they are needed by the government, as well as carrying extra supplies to worlds they own. This does NOT cover newly acquired worlds either.
So a good example would be the 4th war. How many of them were damaged to the point of needing supplies imported in order to just survive? This may well have been added into the reason why the FS went into the depression. I doubt it, as things like this are overlooked unless it fits with the next scenario.
And yes. I know this distracts from having fun stomping each other in giant robots.
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Requiem
01/20/22 04:11 PM
101.185.96.199
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Cray’s Post dated 10/14/21 06:21AM
Located General: QUESTION: The Effects of Economic Isolation on Clan Territories
Quote:
The First and Second Succession Wars:
1. Wrecked tens of thousands of JumpShips, crippling interstellar trade
2. Killed hundreds of planets off the map with loss of trade
The dearth of JumpShips in the Inner Sphere is a key aspect of 3025-era gaming, something discussed at length in 1980s products like the House Sourcebooks and DropShips & JumpShips. There simply aren't enough JumpShips for "highly integrated worlds." Worlds that were dependent on interstellar trade died off in the Succession Wars.
The important remaining interstellar trade were vital, small quantity goods like 'Mech parts. Otherwise, planets mostly stood alone.
with this one post the entire paradigm of the BattleTech Universe shifts making ALL OF THE HISTORY end of the Second Succession Wars onwards unviable!
Think it through - ALL worlds ( with the exception of very rare few) are self sufficient for everything except for high tech exclusive / high end products made on only one world.
As this changes ALL military technology available on every world as to their conventional military forces available!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/20/22 09:33 PM
45.51.181.83
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And yet the game continues to have worlds that require shipments of food, water and medications. Worlds that have NOT be invaded or raided in recent history.
The entire aspect of mercs hiring jumpships to travel around the IS shows a large hole in the canon views. It is more likely periphery realms like the TC have a better jumpship network then even house Steiner. The TC produces their own jumpships, and given the average, should have more then enough to do military and commercial. The MoC has jumpship making facilities, but if I recall right, it is only a scout jumpship. Enough to keep some trade going on.
It does appear that the concept of worlds being brought to not producing enough to be self sufficient in recent times is missing from Cray's post. Water Purifiers are prime targets for raids, as they force the enemy to divert military transport to help those worlds. They also force garrisons to have troops stationed at those plants as well.
History in the House Davion says there is a festival where they land a dropship of food, and the locals rush it, as they had long ago, due to food shortages.
Look in the books for those worlds called bread basket worlds. They ship the excess food to other worlds and help support them.
It also seems time frame is missing here. How many of the 'self sufficient' worlds grew to the point they could no longer feed their people, and started trading operations with other worlds? I really haven't heard much about population control on any world. Other the ethnic style cleansing.
And a big hint for this topic. Hesperus has non Defiance work force living on world. Mainly the families of the workers. So transporting people elsewhere is a complete bust.
Building jumpships will never be on all worlds. Space station building won't either. High tech information like building fusion plants is yet another tech that will not be on all worlds. Repairing equipment is not the same and building it.
This is shown in the fact that parts are shipped in to repair some equipment. Jury rigging is not the same as making the unit from scratch. It is putting in parts that MIGHT work. Much like the dangerous old practice of putting a penny in a fuse box. It is highly stupid.
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Karagin
01/20/22 10:20 PM
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Quote:
This does tie into the discussion that the amount of dropships and jumpships is too low to sustain the IS as it needs more just to keep up with some of the major worlds, much less the minor ones, and have some left over for non scheduled runs, such as taking mercs to a specific system. Government transports would not be used, as they are needed by the government, as well as carrying extra supplies to worlds they own. This does NOT cover newly acquired worlds either.
So a good example would be the 4th war. How many of them were damaged to the point of needing supplies imported in order to just survive? This may well have been added into the reason why the FS went into the depression. I doubt it, as things like this are overlooked unless it fits with the next scenario.
And yes. I know this distracts from having fun stomping each other in giant robots.
The background is interesting enough even with the issues, thus it does tie to the robots bashing each other. So seeing way to make it better is always good. Now you did hit a good point, there should be more ships, both JS and DS. Common attrition rates alone would show that new ones would still be needed to replace the failing ones. Even with it being hard to make new ones, they should still be built and the companies making them should be in the same standing as everyone's favorite telecom company ComStar.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/20/22 11:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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The book jumpships and dropships says the rate of building jumpships is about equal to the attrition of jumpships lost. Dropships were not mentioned if they were doing the same or not, though I do believe they were starting to build more then was lost. This would be commercial dropships making the numbers grow, with military ships being the question. As you don't need to ship out all dropships from a system, they would be less likely to have to deal with military action.
Pirates hitting them is entirely different.
The commercial dropships could be used in system without an issue. Basically moving things between any sort of outpost. This includes but not limited to worlds, asteroids, moon, and such.
But the video games has jumpships just waiting at jump points to take on the mercs as soon as they are ready. The novels have jumpships joining mercs at a pretty far rate as well. Independent jumpships seem to be pretty common as well.
So even 3000 spread around the IS still seems far below what the game implies. Hesperus would be a parking lot most of the time. They make things other then mechs, including munitions. It is doubtful that they ship dropships full of product out. Too many need things by a certain date, and trying to fill a dropship headed for any destination is highly unlikely.
Now if there is a specific location they ship to, say instead of your house, they send it to your local store/post office, then you would have the dropships filled more.
Another issue is the Merchant dropship being the most common. 2 dropships per jump. This might mean someone trying to get to one location might have to jump into 3 other systems before finding a jumpship going where they need to go. Much like Comstars HPG network is said to work. Major stations send messages to the 'local' stations near it.
With other companies, a full dropship is even less likely, depending on the type and situation.
This may well be why Behemoths and Mammoths aren't so numerous. Local demand might only fill half the Mammoth, as the supplies need to be gathered from multiple systems.
But plot armor ignores all facts and numbers. If they want to starve a world, like in the civil war, then it will happen. Which is yet another example of worlds having to ship in necessities.
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Karagin
01/21/22 01:02 AM
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For me the video games based on the TableTop Universe are crap. Not a single one has actually stuck to canon, not a single one has followed how mechs work or are built in the TableTop game, so I dismiss EVERYTHING from the video games until they bring it over and FIX the issues.
Also not impressed with how both FASA/FANPRO said we would not see weapons from the MechWarrior computer games in the TableTop and the asinine Bombast Laser silliness crosses over. The video games are FSP first and foremost, then they try to port a story over that and fail badly at doing so.
Are some Jumpships waiting at the jump points? Sure, since incoming ships would need time to recharge and drop their cargo of Dropships and pick up a new batch, that would take time, but sitting there totally empty just waiting for a merc unit to come along no sorry that won't happen.
Also don't forget, smaller craft are flying around the systems, they can carry cargo as well, so not everything is moving in-system via dropship, larger cargos yes, smaller ones most likely not.
It would be cool to have seen a Merchant Guild or Union, that worked similar to ComStar controlling the Jumpships in the Inner Sphere after the Star League collapsed and the SLDF went off on their quest to enlightenment and Uplifting. I think that would have added another wrinkle for the Hosue Lords to contend with and I could see the Lyrans and others doing all they could to either absorb them or break them, kind of like how Davion and ComStar were at each other's throats.
Plot armor can only be used so much before folks get tired of it and move on to other things. Kind of like how Star Wars has gotten.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/21/22 11:49 AM
45.51.181.83
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Plot armor tends to screw with back ground story and history of a lot of games. Defeat this top evil opponent, and yet the next one is more powerful and you have never heard of them until they explode across the scene. Then the bigger badder weapons come out, only to not work when the survivors get it.
The biggest issue I have had with the video games is the 'shielding' that comes with the FPS. For the story line, a few seemed to be pretty accurate, though still had some rough edges.
The big question to jumpships sitting at a jump point comes from how do people contact them to hire them? I haven't heard of some hiring facility, even Comstar doesn't have anything to do with taking requests for them. Most independent jumpships seem to be run from the ship. Given the implied story, how do you make contact with them to hire them? Many traders don't seem to have a set route, and even if they do, timing changes are required to help avoid pirate attacks.
Not trying to sound nasty, but is there anywhere in any of the books that deals with this situation?
I don't remember where it was said, but there was a story that an independent jumpship captain was waiting for others to hire them to fill up his jumpship collars, trying to gain some more income. And jumpships can move cargo without dropships as well. They do have storage, so smaller batches can be sent out on shuttle and moved to the jumpship.
The idea of having a central location to contact has merit, as this would allow easier planning going on. Comstar has some intel on this, as they are the ones running the IS banking system. But as you said, it would be a major issue if someone were to get into the data banks, and could see major invasions before they happened, ie 20 jumpships moving to a world where a Sword of Light regiment is stationed at. They may well know the ultimate destination as well, given that data would have to be known as well.
This would be from looking for things to pick up in that system.
Going back to the logistics, it appears most worlds do not make parts for their purifiers. I believe the service contracts are probably set up to avoid people from getting into them and learning how to build them themselves. Which follows real world practices.
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Karagin
01/21/22 01:12 PM
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I am sure there is something at the local drop-port or station that allows one to send INTER-SYSTEM messages, (want to be clear, these wouldn't be HPG messages, so one is not confused), to the jumpships at the two jump points, or there could be courier ships that ferry things like that out to the ships.
Also one of the shipping companies might have a way of getting ahold of the ships. ComStar would deliver the message, but it would not be done via the HPG unless it's going out of the system.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/21/22 01:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am sure that some companies follow the "if seal is broken warranty is void" line of think, and really those labels don't stop folks from opening things up. Look at a certain country in Asia that makes knock cars, computers, games, toys, clothing, right down to the flaws or makes the knockoff BETTER because they are working from a finished product.
Pretty sure some planets, keep a few items in warranty so they get updated and then they copy the updates. After all the entire Inner Sphere and Clans ALL use the same weapons tech. Remember a Large Laser made by Maxell is not any different than one made by Ceres Arms, not is table top games, now in the RPG you could add in how one is preferred over the other because one has better tuning lenes for the beams etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
01/21/22 02:11 PM
101.185.96.199
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Quote:
Pretty sure some planets, keep a few items in warranty so they get updated and then they copy the updates.
As per Crays post informing that all countries are capable of economic self determination (for the most part).
Each world is now “That Certain country in Asia that makes knock offs”!
Each House Lord provides every world with the blueprints once they reach a certain level of economic development – thus every world as long as they have the minerals they also have the ability to manufacture EVERYTHING in the Battletech Universe – ie they can make Space-Stations, Jumpships, Warships, Mechs, Aerospace Fighters and every conventional weapon system – they can also manufacture every electronic system.
This is the entire point of interdependency! Being that - being within the guild of a particular House equates to access to EVERY piece of Tech available within that house as long as the resources and people are there to manufacture them. Education materials can easily be transported to establish new Universities …. Franchises of Companies can be established from one world to another – just the same as they are now with regards to multinationals establishing new corps in the third worlds ….
Thus every House needs individual quirks as to their tech Vs other houses!
Extrapolating this – EVERY WORLD has the ability to create VAST conventional forces!
Thus making a mockery to clan forces invasion (for example) by turning the majority of worlds into attrition warfare!
As at this stage every world will have a copy of General Heinz Guderian’s Achtung – Panzer! On the application of motorized warfare and also understand Marshal Albert Kesselring’s defence of central Italy.
Thus with this statement every world now required an extremely detailed bio in order to determine their forces / point of economic development / population … etc.
Thus, when it comes to planetary invasions you will now need fleets to transport militaries in the hundreds of Regiments if you want to invade highly technological worlds with high populations!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/21/22 03:27 PM
45.51.181.83
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Each house will never supply all the blueprints to everything they can build. That makes it easier for foreign governments to acquire the tech. This is also why every world does NOT have a mech factory, ship yard and such.
A vast army of conventional forces will not be high tech on a majority of the worlds. Vehicles would be limited to ICE style, as Fusion engine construction will not be allowed on all worlds. Both big business and even the government won't allow it. Making worlds rely on others for survival is necessary to keep the big states together.
Also defining vast is necessary. You will NOT have a world of 10 million have a standing army of 2 million or more. Just not going to happen. A world of 2 billion might.
The ability to make some high tech equipment, as well as legal protections, is why worlds will not even try to copy tech that is copyrighted/patented. This is why high tech isn't spread around Terra now. What happens to entities that start building a nuke? Governments destroy them as much and as fast as possible. Even if just buying the uranium for making an energy plant, this is still something that gets those involved jailed. Finding them is a problem at times, but a full colony is NOT going to support having the government come in and shut it all down.
Given the games story line, it would not be surprising if the company that owns the patent on say a water purifier, does not have a team raid a world that they did steal the design and start producing it on their own.
Again, the game was not meant to be an endever into economics. But there should be a more realistic number of things to allow the background to exist without falling flat on their face. If the jumpship issue was this bad, then a single strike into a nation would remove all abilities to respond to attacks after a short period of time. Even just occupying them for a while would disrupt a nation. The raids to disable them for a while would have a larger impact on the IS then it does.
And with this thought, ship yards would be better defended the most, if not all worlds in a nation. So this would change the focus of the game from ground combat to space operations. Something that is not desired by most players of the game. A few would, but then they should be playing something else.
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Cray
01/21/22 04:10 PM
71.47.208.18
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Quote:
And yet the game continues to have worlds that require shipments of food, water and medications. Worlds that have NOT be invaded or raided in recent history.
Check A Time of War p. 366-374. Food shipments are primarily luxuries because there are not enough JumpShips to keep entire planets fed. 1 billion people need 1 million tons of food per day, which isn't something that can be accomplished with Mules and Merchants.
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The entire aspect of mercs hiring jumpships to travel around the IS shows a large hole in the canon views.
Not really. Military forces are one of the few things worth shipping between stars.
Quote:
It is more likely periphery realms like the TC have a better jumpship network then even house Steiner.
No. Steiner produces far more JumpShips than any Periphery state.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
01/21/22 09:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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How is it that worlds start having starvation on them, when shipments are interrupted? Well besides plot armor?
But it has been stated many times that the number of ships does not allow for large amounts of worlds to import food, so at least that is consistent.
The production of ships from the LC is not all for the LC. Even the FS/FC had LC ships being sold to other nations. So the numbers is part of barely keeping up with those ships lost.
I have seen that a lot of statements seem to leave the periphery out of it. Given this, it would appear the TC would have close to enough jumpships to do more then just military and emergency transportation of things. It is possible the information or assumption of leaving the periphery out of the facts is wrong, or based on false information. If there is an area where they say otherwise, I would like to know.
With the idea of shipping military being more profitable, that doesn't sound right. Jumpships are pretty solid in their prices for moving ships. It is possible that they get a bonus from the houses to prioritize their military over the 'luxury' items. Dropship captains probably make more with military items then other stuff. So a Merchant jumpship getting ready to jump to system A, has a single military ship asking for passage to system B. would not turn down a pair of dropships that are going where it was heading. According to the books it doesn't really matter the size of the ship, though I would suspect a Behemoth would be charged for 2 berths.
This is even more of an issue if the military ship was heading for a world that is known for not having exports that use independent jump ships.
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LordRuthermore
04/29/22 07:22 AM
87.139.207.25
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Hesperus II is basically the only Canon world left in the IS that needs to import a lot of its basic food. All other worlds that really needed that died off after the fall of the Star League. Excluding mining colonies with small population numbers, all worlds with normal civilian population will be able to feed themselves without imports.
Regarding transporting people in Dropships, apart from actual refits for passenger space, there are rules for transporting people as 'cargo'. You need more supplies (life support, etc), but for short hops it might not make a big difference.
Essentially all surviving worlds are basically self-sufficient for their basic needs, at least to a given extent measured by their USILR ratings.
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ghostrider
04/29/22 04:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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If you read some of the novels, more then a few worlds started suffering from food shortages when Katherine 'diverted' food shipments in the Draconis March.
There is also talks of targeting bread basket worlds in regions to cause suffering in areas. This is one of the reasons for taking worlds that only really offer exports of food.
So the idea that each world is self sufficient in food is contradicted by the fluff done up in the game.
No where does it say any world is self sufficient that I know of. They all seem to require some basic items, wether food, water, ores, or something like that. If smart, they have some reserves to get them by for a few months, but that isn't always possible.
I don't have the newer books, which may have the self sufficiency levels in them.
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Requiem
04/29/22 06:10 PM
101.185.105.200
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Apocryphal – of doubtful authenticity, although widely circulated as being true.
Spurious – not being what it purports to be; false or fake.
On the one hand it is written (within novels) worlds can suffer from food shortages and on the other hand it is stated (Cray, above) that the remaining interstellar trade consisted of small quantity goods – ‘Mech Parts, Military Units, and those considered luxury (exclusive) items within their economy and the wealthy and those retirees who have saved for this one voyage in their life-time.
These two statements are incompatible. Either there is a massive interstellar trade requiring vast fleets to feed worlds that are incapable of feeding themselves, thus for the exclusive use of people and the military or interstellar trade is restricted for the exclusive use of the nobility and the military.
So which is it? As the ramifications of this will determine the paradigm of the Universe and the TO&E of the military – the answer to this one question creates a snow-ball effect that will change everything!
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If smart, they have some reserves to get them by for a few months, but that isn't always possible.
Concept: Strategic Reserves – which has been in existence from how far back into BC when hunter gatherers began farming?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_reserve#:~:text="Strategic%20reserve%20is%20a%20volume,meet%20short%2Dterm%20demand."
Which is now dependent upon logistics, transport, warehousing (including storage control mechanisms), the concept of spoilage duration and the bureaucracy - political policies.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/29/22 07:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is a large amount of commercial dropships and jumpships in the IS. How many times have you heard of conxcription and even out right hijacking civillian ships in the game?
Yet, how many do you really need when shipping luxury items to other worlds?
Military transports are the same in real life as they are in the game. They have to have a transport visit each location once in a while, so that should be covered.
A vast trading network, and one that barely covers what is needed is a point that needs to be explained.
Some worlds get over a dozen jumpships in the jump points a month, maybe even a week. The capitals of the nations being one such location, while things like Hesperus would be another. As the Merchant jumpship is the most numerous during the 3025 era, that means 2 dropships per ship max. As Behemoths and Mammoths are not that numerous, smaller ships are used.
For some locations, water has to be imported, as there is little to no water near the location to even try to purify. Large mining asteroids come to mind here for an example. This also normally includes food. For Defiance, ships are sent out with peoples orders, and not always full. If smart, they had warehouses located in strategic systems, but that does lead to raids on those places.
Speaking of which, how many dropships, jumpships and stations does Defiance actually own and use? Ships coming back from sales would be bringing in things like the food needed for their people, but they are still commercial ships.
The worlds that died from isolation were those deemed unworthy to waste the precious resources to continue to maintain. Those resources were needed elsewhere.
Now for pirates. They seem to hit a lot of merchant ships, which makes you wonder why one would keep sending luxury goods to the worlds they constantly get hit at. If most of the ships were military, then pirates would have to be better armed then what most consider pirates to be. Military should ALWAYS have a decent escort with them, meaning a pirate jumpship would be targeted to avoid future issues, once they are made to be a pirate ship. Sooner or later, no independent pirate force would be able to leave a system.
But the subject right now is sufficiency for worlds. If all were self sufficient, then trading would not have been so necessary. Raids were done to remove necessities, which also meant food, water and other things. You can't grow crops if you don't have the seeds to plant after the fields are burned yet again. Yet seeds are not luxury items, last I knew of. Each world screaming for necessities means one more ship the military can't use to bring in troops to attack, least you have revolts form all over your territories.
And once again, the worlds deemed bread baskets would not exist if all had the necessary food levels.
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Requiem
04/30/22 02:58 AM
101.185.105.200
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Issue: Number of jump-ships / Drop-ships and their respective class
As discussed in many previous forums there is a lack of quantifiable information concerning …
Numbers for each class.
Numbers assigned to a specific geographic area.
Logistical requirements for each world within this geographic area – and how this is currently achieved given the vastly small holds within the majority of dropships when considering the vast number of people on any given world.
Hub and Spoke arrangement as to the disposition of goods (as well as what type of goods) from a central hum to that of the spoke worlds that require goods.
i.e. a complete breakdown as the transport / logistical requirements for every house / periphery state world.
Also, how these requirements can change over time due to new technologies / education that allow an individual world to progress from being non-self-sufficient to that of being self-sufficient.
i.e. new agricultural equipment and expertise can (over time) turn a worlds production numbers around making it self-sufficient … give a man a meal and give a man a fishing pole argument.
Without a highly detailed quantifiable spreadsheet indicating each worlds requirements and how they are currently being supplied at a specific point in time, everything can be spurious. There currently is no information that can be used to prove the veracity of an argument one way or the other.
Do we know how many worlds require water and do we know how many litres / gallons are required given a certain population level at a certain time period? and do we know how this will change over time? – do we need more or less water dropships (and by extension jump-ships) within a certain period of time less the planet’s population begins to suffer from a lack of water?
Unfortunately, without this it is all speculation.
As for pirates – just as Dillinger stated as to why he robs banks, the same can be said of pirates.
They must travel to where the loot is located to conduct their piracy, otherwise they could be sitting a jump point for an undeterminable time-period waiting for a mark to arrive.
As for transport ships – this is why governments assign fighters, and why mercenary pilots exist.
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If all were self-sufficient, then trading would not have been so necessary.
Disagree, there will always be a need for …
Luxury goods
People requiring transport – lord of the manner, retirees, soldiers, educators etc.
Technology and education requiring transport – increase base technology / education of world to that of a more advanced world …
Military units, vehicles, consumables requiring transport
Taxation and legal inspectors etc.
Quote:
Raids
As long as it fits the definition of a legitimate military target – otherwise it will be considered a war crime.
Remember the destruction of civilian targets is a war crime!
And ending up in a tit for tat prolonged strikes is the same as being the only one eyed man in the land of the blind.
Quote:
bread-basket worlds
Consider the number of worlds whose population are in the billions – who are these worlds able to feed such a vast amount of people? Do they even have surplus for export? Will this change over time?
Again, more information required than supplied to make this determination.
Until this information is supplied it is once again at the purview of GM to make this determination.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/30/22 11:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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The implication of a lack of ships, yet their own stories have shortages around the IS creates the issue. The problem with making out the whole fleet listings leads to more problems then it creates.
Dedicated route ships are the only ones that would continue in the same area for any real length of time. From the stories, almost all independent merchant ships go where the next customer pays them to. So they could well end up in the periphery or another nation. Having everything listed just means it is that much easier to 'shut down' a particular region. It also opens up the developers to seeing just how few ships they say there is, and how that doesn't begin to work.
As stated before, a conga line of Behemoths isn't enough to keep a well populated world in water, so having a single purifier destroyed on a world changes the whole thing.
This creates the situation that capturing enemy jumpships is that much more important. One ship could well throw an entire entity, such as the Draconis March, or Dieron District into complete chaos. And I mean capture, as destroying the ship would violate the destruction rule.
Now here is a point. When Theodore Kurita was launching his counter attack into the LC during the 4th war, he lost a few jumpships to the commando attack. Nothing was said about how that affected the DC other then having to call off the counter attack. Most were recovered, but the time length is the key here.
As it is stated that the FS economy collapsed after the 4th war, this does tell of other things besides luxuries being moved in large numbers.
As stated, trading would not be needed. It would still have it's uses, as some items can not be produced on certain worlds. Trading could very well mean nothing more then shipping purchased items to a world, unlike traders having stock when the show up unannounced. They sell what then can, buy more, and move on. This is back up by the stories that include jumpships and dropships.
Remember. You have to capture the criminal in order to punish them for the crime. Stealing is a crime. It doesn't stop people from doing it. Bounties, and kill on sight orders happen a lot in the game, as well as framing others.
This discussion is not about GMs in home games. This is about the canon universe not keeping to its OWN views. Gms can have Star Destroyers and Kilrathi invading the IS, as well as the Borg. Some things remove you from Battletech, and put you into a hybrid game.
The canon version implies some worlds need food and water imports, yet it suggests this isn't so.
SItuational issues, like a major drought or a raid burning local food stores will always show need for imports. But to suggest that food shipments isn't standard is like saying a ppc doesn't need power to fire, but your vehicle needs amps to power it.
So this is understood. This discussion is NOT about home games, but canon consistency.
Edited by ghostrider (04/30/22 11:40 AM)
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Requiem
04/30/22 06:25 PM
101.185.105.200
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Quote:
So they could well end up in the periphery or another nation.
Two problems with this:-
1. it should be against the law (due to reason 2)
2. Yes I agree with you, With the destruction of the FC how much did Victor have to pay for the return of his Jump-Ship fleet? Same principle just on a small scale – Lure a Jump-ship over the border, board and capture it, then ransom it back or re-crew it for your own state.
You could, therefore, have a state sponsored jump-ship capture program.
As the only law re. jump-ships is that they are not a target for destruction on the battlefield – it does not say that you can’t “acquire” them through other means.
As jump-ships are ‘so valuable’ (due to their scarcity), thus in all reality there should be jump-ship boundaries – this far and no further. If cargo is to be sent into the Periphery there should therefore be a handover from a Great House Jump-ship organisation to a Periphery Jump-ship organisation.
Also if we all agree that jump-ships are in such scarce supply this will further the cause for “all worlds are now self-sufficient”, as there are no large fleets to supply planets for any modest population.
Each world must therefore be self-sufficient! as jump-ships are only used for small volume / high price goods.
QED.
Quote:
As stated, trading would not be needed.
This is where I must disagree … as the first successor state to use trade, technology and education correctly will be the winner.
Let me explain …
What is the goal of the game? To become first lord of the new Star League by conquering all your neighbours.
How can this be done? Very easily, as stated many times establish a state sponsored franchise system within your house to transfer education to appropriate worlds to create a viable employment base for your corporations who then use a franchise system to transfer important organisations from one world to the next.
What this gives your house (over a shorter time frame) is a vast military industrial complex that is now on more worlds as well as a vast ship manufacturing complex on more worlds.
Thus, creating a house military that can increase in size quicker than any of its competitors.
Thus overwhelm any competing house with a vastly superior military (in size alone) that also has access to a superior Logistical chain network.
Quote:
This discussion is not about GMs in home games.
Then how do you make a ruling based upon very limited and sketchy information if the game progresses in such a direction?
Someone must decide when the information is not supplied by canon to keep the logic of the game going …
If jump-ships are so scarce …
If you do not have access to a Jump-ship how long is your mercenary unit going to stuck on a world before one agrees to transport you where you want to go next if your new employer also does not have access to a jump-ship?
A Planetary wide drought? With one government on the world wouldn’t it be easier to create a local transport system to move it from where it is to where it needs to be?
Also if the world is so lacking in water wouldn’t this also mean that the world has a low population as it is unable to feed any sizable population? Ie. it lacks wealth – no real access to jump-ships.
Burning all storage facilities on an entire world – there could be hundreds of large silos scattered over the world.
If the jump-ships are not there, then the regular food shipments are not there.
And yes the game is about canon consistency – sometimes the GM must make a call to keep that consistency.
And yet remember there are times when science can be brought in to justify a reason as to what is / is not going on.
A GM could decide …
World uses electricity for everything as the world’s atmosphere was man-made – available crops are not in sufficient quantities to both feed all the people and at the same time manufacture a vast supply of fuel derivative for all the vehicles on the planet could be considered a viable scenario that is not beyond the realm of possibility.
It is just early on in the development of the world the government made the call – all electric due to their unique circumstances. And as such was never changed over time as the planet is now pro-environment due to all the years it required of the people to get the would looking as it does now.
Thus yes you car needs amps and also you PPC, also your military could also use all energy weapons (including your infantry) as this is just how the people see the national policy of energy first.
It enables for a unique view to a new world – ie. no fuel engines allowed could put a crimp on any military.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/30/22 09:42 PM
45.51.181.83
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There would be no trading across borders if you make it completely illegal. There is a lot of trading done from stories and such in the game. With the limit you could not buy anything from another realm, meaning Defiance would lose 4/5th of their business.
The merchant traders are somewhat 'protected' by unwritten rules that in implied Comstar backs. Independent merchant ships are off limits to things like boarding them outside of wartime. It is in Comstar's best interest to enforce this, as it allows them to move agents throughout the IS. The alternative is having a Comstar jumpship and dropship show up to move those agents. It also allows for them to broker trade deals between realms.
Also, how would mercs without their own jumpships move around? Other then normal traders, Comstar would be the only alternative, and they will not allow most mercs near their jumpships.
Why do you think jumpships were targeted in the 1st and 2nd succession wars? To prevent the enemy from having ships to invade/counter attack. You lock all their forces on worlds, and slowly pick them apart. As for trading and economic might? The CC would have been destroyed before the 3rd war, and the Lyrans would probably control a large chunk of the DC, providing Comstar did not interfer. The fact is, a precise strike, especially like in the future where the DC basically owns the FS, they could well remove the FS by securing and moving their jumpship facilities into the DC. No possibility to making jumpships means very limited options for future comebacks.
The way you make decisions is the way you make decisions in other games. Each GM deals with it, without telling the rest of the universe this is the only way it can be done. Each GM will have their own version of what is going on. For the most part, if you want your game to be usable to all, it has to pretty much stick close to canon.
This part of the discussion was to find out why there is such a huge difference in the implied amount of trade. If it was all luxury items, then it wouldn't effect the states like it is suggested it does. Military shipments are a bit different. Which would mean any attacks would be against government ships, not privately owned.
Stranding mercs is a favored tactic for houses. Some moreso then others. The fact that you can hire ships shows that trade is more then just government moving things.
The drought idea is set on worlds that don't have large water fresh water reserves. Some worlds are not one government either. Border worlds will have multi nations controlling areas, while others use water tanks to supply water. If one shipment is missed, drought is the first step.
If the world has supplies for say a month in reserve, burning even one silo means that is cut short. It may well be that the loss of fields will cause food shortages for the world, especially if they can only be grown in specific areas, such as hydroponic farms. If one or more is destroyed, or even damaged, that could very well lead to the world having food shortages. Sieges will further reduce food supplies.
There are worlds in the game that ICEs would not be permitted. Mainly habitats and domed cities. Air purifiers would be necessary to keep the air clean. And you can run ICEs without air. Oxydizers in the fuel is possible. Look at the Neptune sub in TRO 3026. They claim hydrogen peroxied is used for fuel.
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Requiem
05/01/22 11:15 AM
101.185.105.200
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Quote:
There would be no trading across borders if you make it completely illegal.
Only those who have a jump-ship business with permits for both side of the border
… can be considered to transport – remainder illegal to do so?
As for Defiance they would still require a sale of military goods permit from the Steiner Government to allow for the sale of goods over the border. It is not as if all businesses have free trade to do whatever they want.
How is ComStar going to know who has the Jump-ship if it has a new beacon and has been sent far away from where it came from? And are they willing to go to the mat over a missing Jump-ship?
Quote:
Why do you think jumpships were targeted in the 1st and 2nd succession wars? To prevent the enemy from having ships to invade/counter attack. You lock all their forces on worlds, and slowly pick them apart.
Consequently by 3rd succession war – minimal Jump-ships – hence all worlds must be self sufficient or will be required to transport population to a new world that is.
The as the quantity of Jump-ships varies etc this has a consequence, as the entire history shifts violently and Canon history can no longer be considered to be the same if you accept the premise of canon jump-ship numbers will vary.
Quote:
if you want your game to be usable to all, it has to pretty much stick close to canon.
Disagree – as long as the game is understandable by those playing it at the same time then it can be anything the Group wants it to be – new history, new technology, worlds can change to whatever you want them to be.
Quote:
Which would mean any attacks would be against government ships, not privately owned.
Unless you are the fox who utilized alternative strategies to win
Quote:
don't have large water fresh water reserves.
Equates to a low population as there are no Jump-ships in quantity to support a vast population requiring water.
Quote:
Border worlds will have multi nations controlling areas,
Then the have nots will raid / start a war against the haves – as everything needs water to survive.
Quote:
burning even one silo means that is cut short.
And if this world has 1,000,000 silos and a large population – one silo is not all that much – comes down to proportional amount to the whole.
If you want to fight using food as a weapon this is your prerogative – however do not expect me to go down that path – plus how is your rep going to change if you adopt this tactic – will anyone want to have anything to deal with you after using this in war?
Quote:
hydrogen peroxide is used for fuel.
Enjoy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JbwESXISs
Rocket Fuel The Science of Hydrogen Peroxide with Steve Spangler on 9News
So are Jump troopers using Hydrogen Peroxide whist jumping to attack mechs etc?
As for history where DC owns mode of FS – sorry but I have now given up on cannon as virtually every bit of history I have researched has mistakes that I consider to be cringe worthy and I have finally given up – time to write my own
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/01/22 05:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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Permits on both sides of the border doesn't work as well as you would think. Black market ships will have access to things law abiding merchants don't. But there are always ways around things like this. The issue is anyone not established with not get any sort of clearance. And this does not cover those using unihabited systems. Yes, this is very dangerous, but for some, they will risk it.
Also, this removes a lot of mobility for spies going across the border. The black box would not be risked by an agent on the ground. It may be onboard a dropship or jumpship, but even that would be unlikely if they are not 'authorized' to be across the border.
All ships that do go across the border with be inspected to make sure they are not carrying agents or illegal goods.
The aspect I was talking about is if you want to play in another groups game or have someone new come in, the game has to have a large basis similar to canon. Dropping someone into the 4th war, for example, means they need to know what is owned by who. It may take hours to even go over information to see what is different.
Do you believe that Comstar doesn't keep track of ships used by all nations? You can fake them out for a short time, but they will eventually figure out what ship is where. That is especially true if someone uses the HPG network.
If there are no merchant jumpships, then there is no alternative methods of hitting supplies. They would all be government owned ships.
Low populations does not meant the facilities don't need water. Being in need of something like copper, might well mean a mining ship being used to asteroid mine it. Those ships will not have huge amounts of water reserves, and probably require constant supplies. One missed run or having a tank get destroyed will force someone to divert another ship to cover it or risk losing the operations. Even a space station can have these issues at a jump point.
This conversation is what canon has done, not personal methods of combat. This is where conversations start going wrong. Simply causing hardship for a community, means your enemy has to divert forces to deal with it, or risk rebellion and even losing the community. Not every raid is against military targets.
The hydrogen peroxide was not meant for jump fuel, but as an alternative to gas in an ICE that requires the air to remain clean. You could run one outside of a dome to provide power, yet not have to worry about oxygen to combust.
Seems like the context of the sentences is being ignored again.
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Requiem
05/01/22 07:20 PM
101.185.105.200
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Illegal activities go hand in hand with legal – there is always someone who desires the rare as well as the product that everyone says you are not allowed to have – tell someone they are not allowed to have something or say it is only for the exclusive few, then just sit back and watch the desire multiply.
There will, therefore, always be a someone who is willing to facilitate the transaction.
As for someone new – it is the same as D&D – you spend time with that person and explain it all before hand so that you know they will be a good fit and that they know what they are getting into – thus they are more likely to stick around for a long time if there are no surprises.
As for ComStar – would they assist in the retrieval process, or would they use that information to their benefit? … ComStar First Policy?
Jump-ships, be they government or privately owned – how they are used, their numbers etc will affect the backdrop of the game and will affect how worlds interreact with one another and how the darker side of the game operates (if you want to go down this rabbit hole) and how the military operates … for me I desire a more sci-fi atmosphere … hence the more, hence the increased technology quicker … what I do not appreciate is a universe that creates holes and never gets around to fixing them … that creates a narrative that does not make sense – that says to me no I am not allowed to retrofit this that and the other just because some one else says I am not allowed to do it, when in all reality it makes absolute sense to do so and I have historical precedence to back up my reason.
Thus, yes, I have decided to go it alone … to create my universe as I see it, to give me and those like me joy in a vast military operatic journey that requires one game progressing from one to the next and required multiple groups to achieve the goal.
Canon is but one aspect to a piece of art, it does not have to be the only aspect. People should not be confined to what society expects of them, locked in a box and told to stay put as this is what you should be and you are never allowed to change.
For me the game should be personal it should be allowed to change to allow whoever is on the journey to find the best journey they desire, just as you can in D&D, it does not limit the horizon it expands the horizon.
As for ‘not every raid is against military targets’, this is where your unit is moving into the world of illegal Black Ops – remember there are rules as to a military target, and once crossed if your unit is outed for conducting such an action the repercussions must also be considered.
Quote:
The hydrogen peroxide was not meant for jump fuel, but as an alternative to gas in an ICE
Can be both.
Living in a dome comes with it its own problems – such as living on a space station or on the lunar surface for example. The problem resides around combustion – OH&S within an enclosed environment would suggest minimising the chance of such an occurrence – thus maintaining vast quantities of a volatile substance should be considered an unnecessary risk that can be minimised with an alternative.
Just as we have OH&S officers within all businesses currently – they should also be around in the future, causing new policies / laws to be established with one aim in minimising the risk to the community.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/01/22 10:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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Comstar would do what they think will help them at the moment. It also doesn't have to be official. Someone trying to make a fast c-bill would sell information on a jumpship when they think they could get away with it. Sometimes, that 'illegal' information is authorized by the first circuit. Help getting it back is entirely different. Unless they have a stake in it, like the cargo was meant for Comstar, the probably not.
Jumpships is part of the economy, which we all agree, wasn't well thought out. The 2000 guestimate in Jumpships and dropships sounds far to low for the entire IS. That would be just one nation, with the CC being the most likely candidate. The numbers seemed to be done so everyone that plays does not suggest they have a fleet of 30 or more. And depending on the ship types, that is what would be needed to move a full RCT. Not everyone has 9 Fortress dropships in their fleet with 3 or more Vengeances. And this does not even cover the support personnel.
It was done so the feel of limited resources was why the SLDF style invasion of the Periphery is not done. When the Helm core was decoded, it would have increased the production ability by some, possibly doubled if no one interfered with production.
The question of why the game suggested they didn't have enough, then saying worlds had starvation and such when sieged yet trade was basically luxury items and military equipment is the issue.
Might be what the elementals use on the outside of stations. I have seen novels suggest they did use their jets, but at a much lower power setting. The mercury solution for mechs doesn't seem to add up.
Volatile substance? Isn't that what dropship fuel is? Well any fuel used to power fighters and such. It is preferrable over expensive fusion reactors for the small companies that need power but don't have the funds. In the long run the fusion engine is cheaper for fuel, but the initial costs are the problem. You can buy more IC fuel as you need it, stretching out the costs over time. But this is getting into the thread topic that was shut down, so enough of this.
The concept that life is cheap in the game suggests that labor can be replaced rather easily. I have always thought experience and skill are not the easy to replace, so you try to keep what you got. Canonwise, this isn't the case. Only the rich suggest they are worth keeping alive, and all else needs to protect them.
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Requiem
05/02/22 12:38 AM
101.185.105.200
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ComStar – yes, they will always act in their own best interests.
Dropships and aerospace fighter – Hydrogen, and yes, it is very flammable if hot handled correctly.
Yet, given the duration of time Hydrogen has been used as a fuel source, within the Inner Sphere you should assume that the risk of an unintentional detonation would be very low.
As for life – life is never cheap and should never be suggested in such a manner or within the BattleTech Universe.
Given that the universe’s governmental system is based upon that of a monarchy it is the duty of the monarch and their lords to safeguard the people, it should never be the same as it was in the dark ages.
This is supposed to be a more enlightened time!
Most Monarchs, you would assume, would take a very dim view of their lords using the people in such a manner – especially when it is policy to educate them and then provide an excellent position so as to advance the overall society of the Great House as quickly as possible via technological advancement / R&D etc – thus making this house the supreme technological house and soon to be Leader of the new Star League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/02/22 02:41 AM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that most realms have trillions of people in them, the average grunt in the field is not worth much when the ruler considers what the cost will be for victory. So sending 1000 troops to their deaths to just slow down an enemy is considered acceptable to them. Part of why they lost so much to the clans. That is how the game is set up.
Training costs a lot, but talent is hard to come by. And that is where most say the idea of life is cheap is wrong.
With the exception of plot armor, one person normally does not stop an entire army, or wins a world. It takes a force of talent.
I don't agree with throwing away the talent, without a very good reason. But this is also why the 3rd war was basically raidfest. It was less costly to just raid each other then a full out invasion.
The FS seemed to be on track to be the most technologically advanced, behind Comstar. The LC had their tech advancing decently as well. Comstar did interfer with the development of tech that threatened their monopoly on fast coms. The CC looked to be last. But the most advanced tech wasn't going to make one leader become the SL lord. From the way the story goes, no one would be able to regain the title without the others supporting them. Even conquering others didn't look like it would do it.
As for hydrogen, even handled correctly does not remove the issues with it. A strike on the tanks would cause an explosion. Even just causing lines to leak, could well remove a community the ability to have power available. This was how each house developed raids. To hurt the enemy, and some times, in any way possible. The DC and CC were more likely then others to do something dirty, but that did not mean the others wouldn't have.
The inconsistency of the games implied history causes issues. Granted, if they came out and basically rewrote the game from the ground up with the rules set up correctly, like a few games have, it wouldn't be so bad. But you can't have the 'dark ages' feeling, and say things like only a few factories remain. Or jumpships. Someone WILL target them for destruction, as it means only you have the facilities to continue the war. Simple coordinated sabotage would do it, without full destruction of facilities.
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Requiem
05/02/22 09:13 PM
124.184.178.109
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Quote:
The average grunt
So, are we now returning to the Napoleonic Era to that of WW1?
To get the best out of all of your military personnel wouldn’t it be more efficient to “actually demonstrate” a level of respect / protection / justice and for a pay that is adequate for the services rendered?
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Part of why they lost so much to the clans.
Really? … back down the same rabbit hole were very bad writing and predetermined outcome created on of the most inept stories ever considered …
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one person normally does not stop an entire army, or wins a world.
And yet both of these actually occurred within the Clan Invasion …
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why the 3rd war was basically raidfest
And yet what happened to the CC?
Quote:
The FS seemed to be on track to be the most technologically advanced, behind Comstar.
Problem is the socio technological development of the game is non existent and defies all reality – as demonstrated by Helm memory core - the reasons why the IS are not allowed access to clan Tech - and that of Huntress … no real thought was given to the game.
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A strike on the tanks would cause an explosion.
Any strike on any volatile tank will cause an explosion.
Problem is you require a military reason for the strike – otherwise it is once again a war crime!
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have the 'dark ages' feeling,
How long is the dark age feeling expected to last? How long will it take before technology actually helps the society of the majority of worlds?
This is the issue – if one leader introduces a policy to assist every worlds education and technology their realm will be able to manufacture at a rate far beyond that of any other – consider the United States during WW2 and consider their ability to outproduce the entire world.
This is the biggest problem with the game – as am I only allowed to stay in the box provided and not venture out?
Thus, I have given up on canon history – time to write my own for me and establish a game that provides an era of greater technological development.
The game as is, in my opinion, has way too many issues (and very bad characters) that I can no longer tolerate and the history as written I can no longer tolerate as being worthy of even reading, it is just that bad!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/03/22 01:16 AM
45.51.181.83
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Most of the soldiers of the IS make more then average commercial wages. So they are paid better then most. The problem is you are expected to die quickly/. The use of weapons that wipe out buildings easily does not leave many wounded. Only fighting other infantry do you really have a chance of just losing a limb. A bit gruesome, but seems accurate.
So what did happen to the CC during the 3rd war? The same thing that happened to the other nations as well. They got raided, and did some raiding. Why? What did I miss?
The SL had superior tech over the periphery, and yet history repeated itself. The tech made a difference only in how fast they killed. It did not really change the fact that hit and runs were effective in reducing their numbers, nor did it stop the assassination style attacks on their forces. The non military civies were killing the SL troopers as well as the military.
The issue with the thought of better tech means you win seems to be at fault here. You have a .50 caliber gun verse the persons .45 caliber gun, isn't a huge difference, though it is better tech. Having cruise missiles while the enemy has single shot muzzle loaders gives you a huge advantage, but only when you don't have to engage in hand to hand.
So the DC and the CC were war criminal nations. They constantly used methods like exploding gas supplies and poisons to conquer worlds, or suppress populations. The other houses did the same thing, but much less often. So how do you punish them? Comstar used the same tactics, and framed the others. So again. How do you punish them?
It isn't like the SL/TH didn't do the same thing. They just hid it better.
Read the context of the paragraphs.
The statement of the U.S. outproducing the worlds isn't based on tech or education. It is based on the fact we had the natural resources to produce things. A lot of countries have to import some resources, and during the war, moving those resources was targeted. No matter how educated your people are, they can not build a tank if they don't have iron to make the parts. To move it, you need fuel. Other resources are needed as well, such as rubber for seals and such.
This is the very thing militaries focus on. Remove the ability of your enemy to make war, and you have an easier time. The war crime issue of say blowing up a supply depot comes up. There was no peace treaty signed during the succession wars, so there was ALWAYS a state of war in effect. Up until the 2nd SL was formed, even the push to send the clans home, didn't stop the war. It only postponed it.
So the example of hitting the fuel supplies. Did that mean the Allies were war criminals for doing so? As they did inflict civilian casualties? We know the Axis did so as well. This is the fact of war. The only way to stop it is to stop creating war. Yet you have to defend yourself from others aggression. This is the history of humanity. And the basis of it all is greed.
And how do you determine who is right? Someone that has been a prisoner of say the CC, has decided they will never be so again. So anything goes when killing them. This could be said for someone that was a prisoner of the FS. I hate the truth of it.
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Karagin
05/03/22 02:21 AM
70.118.172.64
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Everyone has to important certain things, no nation is 100% set to be self-sufficient not unless they are willing to do without certain things. The same would be true of many worlds.
There is an example in the original Periphery Sourcebook about how two worlds not that far apart as far jumps go, each had something the other needed but couldn't get those things to each other and both worlds suffered for it.
This is ONE big reason I didn't buy the whole BS company (or was it party line?) about how the Word was able to pay for and buildup their forces so easily for the bad storyline called the Jihad. However, that's water under the bridge at this point.
Every system ( I really wish Battletech would have stuck with more developed star systems with key worlds vs this world-only approach) will need things from other systems, be it finished goods, or parts to make finished products or food or whatnot. Trade is going to happen and even during a war, you still need trade.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/03/22 01:55 PM
124.184.178.109
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Quote:
no nation is 100% set to be self-sufficient … The same would be true of many worlds
Problem is … as above Cray 01/12/22 04:10 PM Forum Post
Food shipments are primarily luxuries because there are not enough JumpShips to keep entire planets fed.
Military forces are one of the few things worth shipping between stars.
QED - worlds must be very highly self sufficient and any food that is imported is high end luxury goods that will derive a high price and is exclusive for the mega rich and famous.
I would, therefore, assume that it would be difficult to pay for the build-up of multiple mercenary military forces – unless they have access to their own transport.
State forces, however, as they have access to their own transport will be able to move as directed by regional HQ and at the same time will be patched into a logistical chain to enable them to receive consumables et al to keep them in the fight if they are walking into a protracted battle.
Yes, I do agree, that trade is going to occur, however, it is now considered to be extremely limited to high end luxury goods only and that of military due to the extremely limited numbers of JumpShips.
Though I would like to ask when does this change?
My argument is – if a House can transfer education and Franchise its military industrial complex / civilian corporations etc (just as is occurring now – Strategic reasons for firms to transfer world-class production methods and technology to developing countries ... as discussed in such articles as the International Journal of Production Economics.) to developing worlds, multiple worlds should, at a certain point, beginning to establish their own DropShip and JumpShip production facilities, Thus QED at a certain point in time the minimisation hypothesis of JumpShips within the Inner Sphere should be considered a fallacy … we will also need at that point in time production numbers and an overall number of ships within each House (etc.) so as to determine how this changes over time.
Consider looking at Car Manufacturers in Africa by Africans and their alliances with 1st world corporations as an example – manufacturing numbers are low now, though in the future?
German auto majors in Africa include VW, Mercedes-Benz owner Daimler and BMW
https://www.dw.com/en/africa-begins-to-e...owner%20Daimler,in%20South%20Africa%20in%202019.
Question – if infantry incur such high casualty and death rates – what is the cost / care like within the Military Health System for each house?
3rd War – bridge linking the new FC – half of the CC captured (though in all reality the entirety of the CC should have occurred post war of 39) which requires planetary acquisition.
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The SL had superior tech over the periphery
And yet the RWR and their assistance to all other Periphery States prior to the fall of the SL would suggest that this point is debateable.
The methods of war used will determine how peace is achieved / how long partisans will continue to fight on … despite their government capitulating … which can be used by rival housed to pin down your forces fighting partisans …
Please remember a soldier does not revel in wanton death and destruction …
It also looks bad when independent media produce clips showing wanton death and destruction …
The Laws of War - https://www.icrc.org/en/document/what-ar...f%20war%2C%20or,saving%20lives%20and%20reducing%20suffering.
Just as post WW2 humanitarian laws were established – wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect that post 2nd Succession War rules of war would be adopted – even unofficially so as to appearing to be the good guy when acquisitioning a new world? As a compliant world is easier to govern than a world where the majority of the population wants your forces dead …
So how do you punish war criminals – easy ComStar would interdict the House in question until the war criminal is handed over for trial – such an act would make ComStar wildly popular and would help any recruitment drive.
So when ComStar rides out like knight of old to establish their Blakean Theocracy they would be welcomed as liberators with a positive history …
Quote:
The statement of the U.S. outproducing the world isn’t based on tech or education. It is based on the fact of … natural resources …
Please explain how Trinity was achieved if only natural resources were considered …
Also the production numbers for liberty ships, bombers …. Etc. using Rosie the Riveter (we can do it) without vast technology / education.
Naturan resources only take you so far, technology and education takes you to the next level or why else would so many be undertaking University?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/03/22 11:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of entire worlds being fed, and having shipments supplement food shortages on different worlds is not one and the same. The fluff for the books and novels all suggest that there are multiple worlds that do not produce enough food to fee their people. So the large hole there needs to be fixed.
I would suggest you reread the 3rd succession war. There is no bridge built between the FS and LC. That is the 4th war.
Go back further then the Succession wars. There WERE laws in effect to prevent the very thing that happened during the Amaris war and beyond. Laws are only effective when someone is there to punish those that break them. The wanton destruction of jumpships wasn't just military ones. They were any ship that could be used against them, wether just to warn others the system has been invaded or not was enough. Nuking worlds was a complete Violation of the Ares conventions, which the main signer, the SL, ignored. Who prosecuted them?
Spec ops/commando raids target civilian properties as much as military ones. This is true now and in the future. Sterilize the game as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact in this.
Educating the masses is basically handing your advances to all your enemies as well. The only thing is time lag.
Now educating the people on how to farm properly isn't the problem. The enemy will probably know how to do that. Teaching them how to build a PPC is a different story.
And the concept of teaching other nations on how to build things like cars, comes down to only a few people actually learn how to do it. Most of the rest of the population is ignorant of how to do it. Assembling isn't the same as casting, machining and out right building it from ores in the ground.
Comstar will not even attempt to punish those breaking the laws, as they want the houses to destroy each other. So crimes being done, means each house will continue to send as many to their deaths to punish each other.
Comstar themselves have commited those crimes as well. Proving it is the key, and who would punish them for it? Comstar is not the police force of the IS. Yet they seemed to be when the clans invaded. Figure that one.
So Germany, who's engineering was some of the best lost the war due to what? A lack of resources they could use to make the weapons. England had to have the U.S. import materials so they could continue building war machines. The U.S. didn't have to scrounge for the ores to refine into gears and ammunition. Rosie wasn't put on an assembly line to learn the entire process. They worked one area of it. So learning how to use a Brake Press isn't that difficult. Today would be slightly different, but even then, they would be set in one spot. Put the pins in the track, or hook up the cooling system for the engine.
For a full machine, you need education, but for the individual worker, not really.
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Requiem
05/04/22 06:46 AM
124.184.178.109
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Quote:
So the large hole there needs to be fixed.
and apparently it has been revised to all worlds are now self-satisfactory when it comes to food.
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Sterilize the game as much as you want, it doesn’t change the fact in this.
and turning the game into in defeat – malice / burn everything – Revelling in death and destruction
how does this assist anyone?
Quote:
Teaching them how to build a PPC is a different story.
Then how do you ever increase the size and scope of the military industrial complex – also how do you undertake any R&D to improve upon your current weapon systems if education is limited to the few?
With this policy you are setting your House up for failure when another house’s military industrial complex can outperform and can out R&D your House.
How was Trinity ever established if you do not educate your personnel?
Quote:
Comstar
Yes ComStar wants to ensure the houses destroy themselves – They also want to held upon a pedestal as the last Star League Enterprise that holds onto their virtues and morals … that is they want to be viewed as Paladins!
Quote:
So Germany, who’s engineering was some of the best lost the war due to what?
1. Inept leadership did not allow for standardization of plants – Hitler liked to play one off the other and this really created for a very poor management system within the plants that were actually making the products etc.
2. Resource issues – importation issues – unable to secure via battle – etc.
3. Women were not allowed to work on the production line.
4. Slave labour utilized in manufacturing products
5. Interference by people who did not understand what military product was truly needed at the time
– ie they though bigger was better and therefore squandered resources
- initiated attacking strategies that just lost resources rather than adopting a defensive strategy
6. What military industrial complex was remaining was obliterated due to a mass bombing program by the air force -was obliterated as the allies gained control of the sky.
7. The war was started too early and many of the vehicles that should have been there were not there – ie Germany lacked a Heavy bomber. As well as Germany was still relying on the Horse etc for too much of its transport / logistics. Thus mass logistics problems on all fronts.
8. Went into Russia with no clear winter uniform – long distance logistics strategy etc – thus they failed to learn from history.
9. The failed when they allowed a corporal to dictate military objectives.
10. Many Generals were blinded by early victories and did not dive into the administrative logistics analysis to understand the underlying issues as to their military industrial complex or there was just outright phantasy reports created and everyone thought that everything was great, when in reality it was all a paper tiger …
Quote:
The U.S. didn’t have to scrounge for the ores to refine into gears and ammunition.
What would have happened if Germany could have bombed every city within the U.S. from the start of the war?
Not one bomb was dropped on the U.S. Mainland by Germany – though they did sink many ships off the coast.
Also Japan’s idea of starting a forest fire was a little pie in the sky – still didn’t stop the U.S. from retaining a vast quantity of manpower for just in case they actually pulled it off.
Also Rosie manufactured and put together everything to make all the final product – consider how much went into making an assembly line for Bombers – then look at the numbers they manufactured – they look at the number per day was manufactured … epic does not begin to quantify how these ladies worked to ensure victory.
Their collective ability was epic.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/04/22 11:01 AM
45.51.181.83
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As stated in the past, there is no need to use the horrible concepts with every thing that goes on. You do not have to have every last action be something like nuking worlds, or blowing up civies. But the threat should remain, to keep people on their toes.
All militaries used the threat of civilian casualties, in order to spread out enemy forces even more, so they could hit military targets without huge losses. Destroying mines, normal means civilian losses. Bridges, and a hole slew of other things are targets, yet not considered military in nature. Yes. Restricting the enemy's ability to move forces is a good thing, but actually doing it means striking normally civilian sectors.
There are a few taught how to build, say the PPC. Not everyone will be. That one person is tasked to assign parts of an assembly line to do specific things, not everything. And that person will avoid teaching large chunks to anyone, as it means that person could take the cushy job of being leader of manufacturing for the PPC.
A person may work on a particular circuit board, yet not know how to connect the power and coolant to the weapon, or even how to cast the mold for it. Education for all would be limited. Only one or two people would know the whole process.
Funny that the suggestion that Germany didn't understand long distance strategies, as a large chunk of wars fought in Europe had Germany as part of it. This was before you could cross the country in a single day. The mule train was a large part of tactics and strategies in those wars.
What would have happened if Germany could have bombed every city within the U.S. from the start of the war?
That question is important. Had they been able to do so, the resources to build the war machine would not have been availalbe. People would still be around to make the items, just not have the materials to do so. Yes, you do need people to put things together at the time. Now, with all the automations, this isn't so important.
The discussion about one person doing it all is inaccurate. Line workers were part of a section of assembly, not making the entire item, like a tank or plane. This is still true today as well. Women did help get the items to the troopers. That is not in doubt. But they would not have been able to without having the resources to do so. Had the U.S. been starved of resources like Germany, the U.K. and others, most would not have been put on the assembly line.
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Karagin
05/04/22 12:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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Also, keep in mind, many Inner Sphere factories will have a lot of robotic units doing the heavy lifting and work, the human component is there to make sure things run smooth, this would be the norm in the bigger well known, and profitable companies, now on some worlds, yes humans would indeed be building the whatever by hand, but it would be on an assembly line process, and Ghostrider is correct, one person would be putting on say coolant lines, then as the unit moves down the line to another person who puts fittings on, etc...
One person will NOT be putting the whole mech, tank, car, truck, etc...together by themselves. Not only is that not cost-effective it's actually MORE expensive.
I really believe at this point Requiem is arguing to argue, that's my opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/04/22 06:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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It started looking like argue to argue when the statements were not in context with the sentence or paragraph they were taken from.
A thought did come up.
How many people are actually employed, as the TH was running low on materials, and it would stand that with all the wars and such, the other houses might be in the same situation. Might be more due to radiation and such, but if more jobs are automated, Something sounds off.
It would stand the commercial/private side of manufacturing would be more susceptible to material shortages then the military, especially during invasions.
Things like worker mechs, would remove a lot of the need for human muscle for things like cutting lumber, and even farming.
Advanced worlds would more likely have automated fish farms, then having a few fishermen out with poles.
This would be more likely after the Helm Core and some rebuilding.
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Karagin
05/04/22 08:50 PM
70.118.172.64
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An entire series of star systems and they are running out of materials...sorry NOT buying that line of silliness at all. I don't care if it's the canon (the powers that be) excuses, it's NOT logical at any stretch of the imagination.
Using that logic, we should have never seen a new mech or vehicle built, or a new anything in the Inner Sphere after the Age of War.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/04/22 10:01 PM
124.184.178.109
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Question what is a “Rosie” the Riveter?
As it appears as though the answer is referring to a one individual point of view.
Please refer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_the_Riveter
Economic statistics within the game – any real qualifiable Information? Nil – the only information provided – a blanket statement of recession etc.
The problem is, if worlds are predominately isolated from the universe due to a lack of inter-world trade each world’s economy is based upon their own internal environment.
The main variant, therefore, for economic change, reverts to military action upon a world that suggests rebuilding requirements – cost / natural disaster.
Also, as worlds are now isolated – they all must have their own education system from pre-school to post graduate / doctorate courses must be available – also all worlds must have their own heavy industry etc (just as we do now on Terra) to ensure a viable and liveable environment. Thus every world has the ability to create … their own military industrial complex … their own interstellar transport … there own industry as we have now on Terra– this includes Jump-ships and Drop-ships – the only sticking points are resources, education and a suitable underlying technological base that can propel the world to the next level.
Please refer - https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/worlds-first-space-hotel-open-2027
If we are looking at a hotel by 2027 how long until we colonize the moon … and then to Mars …. And then to?
At what point do we consider this information as a basis for within the game to suggest redevelopment of a word to enable interstellar travel.
As remember it is possible within the game for any state to create a lunar facility – as required – so how long until you can use this to create Jump-ships?
A point that was not considered by the TPTB, in my opinion. Can there please be a document demonstrating the progression of technology within the IS over time within all applicable industries?
Please refer - https://www.britannica.com/event/Marshall-Plan
However, if we re-write the aim of … “A <insert house name here> program designed to rehabilitate the economies of <no. of worlds> war ravaged worlds in order to create stable conditions in which <Maslow’s pyramid> are maintained in order to create stable conditions in which <insert house name> industries and political system remains intact” … thus ensuring a strong and prosperous House.
This is something that the central government of each House should have.
As being part of the House’s empire ie. after how many hundreds of years of war shouldn’t there be a dedicated Government Department with the remit of providing assistance to war ravaged worlds – ie shouldn’t there be multiple mobile engineering corps to assist with the rebuilding?
Similar to an insurance contract – your world pays taxes to the central government to pay for all works required (including military) and as such if your world is damaged due to war it is the responsibility of the central government to assist with rebuilding.
As for how an industry operates on each individual world – such as the aquaculture – wouldn’t this be dependent upon the individual worlds level of underlying technology? Such as from Vietnam – using bomb craters as pools to grow fish etc as a supplement to their diet – all the way to corporations who are researching how to mimic an environment to grow commercial fish away from polluted water / maximise profit by removing the need for fishing trawlers etc.
As for Helm core – don’t we need more detailed information as to how the Helm Core affects the lives of ordinary citizens and not just the military – ie. how did the Helm memory core affect medicine, pharmacology etc. – and as my request above how has the Helm core affected the progression of technology within all applicable industries?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/05/22 07:25 PM
124.184.178.109
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What is required is an understanding of technological progress within the Universe – both civilian and military.
It refers to the discovery of new and improved methods of producing goods. Changes in technology lead to an increase in productivity of labour, capital, as well as other factors of production. Therefore, increasing the economy of the world to a bull economy.
Via R&D ….
Invention … creating new technology that has utility – the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial.
Innovation … consider …
Relative advantage – when a person perceives the improvement as being an improvement to the alternative.
Compatibility – does the innovation align with person’s lifestyle – either as a civilian or military.
Complexity – how difficult is it to understand – easy to understand = more likely to be adopted by the mainstream.
Trialability – testing the innovation before the innovation is adopted.
Observability – can it be demonstrated that it can be used to greater effect. The more that see the product as being effective, the more likely it will be adopted (purchased).
Diffusion of the invention – the spread of the technology throughout each Houses society (civilian) as sell as military
There also needs to be a measure of how technological progress is diffused – simple linear regression can be used here
What also can be considered is economies of scale when it comes to production output and the costs to produce the new output ….
As we can see it is not that simple … however understanding technological progress should be included within the BattleTech Universe …
For example, The progression of a single BattleMech design?
Locust … Marauder … Cestus … Avatar (OmniMech) … Archangel (OmniMech).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/22 07:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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That is the problem with a generic blanket of not having the resources. It makes is sound like everything is lacking. More then likely, just one or two materials is not mined/made to keep up with demand. Water being the one major exception I can think of to this concept at the moment.
It may be copper being limited, where you need 300 million tons a month to keep up with all the demand, and you can only get in 250 million tons. Wheat may not grow well on a world, so in order to have normal bread and such, you have to import some.
For some stories, it is said the food stores are incapable of feeding the entire world. That does not mean every one will suffer, just those that are in areas that don't bow down to the current rulers. And yes, local lords did cut back on food being sent to areas that opposed their power.
For some worlds, the constant raiding is what caused the issue.
For those that don't understand some raiding, leaders did indeed destroy things like food silos to see how emergency personnel reacted, and where they come from. This also means military units. After a few raids, the military shifts units to try and stop the raids before they do damage, and end up losing units, wether they stop it or not. They are forced to recoup their losses and spread out even more. The ability to replenish those units is where things start to go wrong.
Hitting ships bringing in the needed supplies causes even more hardships, especially if the destination doesn't have the seeds to plant new crops, or worse, the harvest just finished, and raiders destroyed the harvest as well as the seeds from the harvest.
So shortages may not be long term, or that large. A simple Mule Dropship could well make the rounds to worlds bringing in the needed supplies to prevent the shortages. Average 4 worlds per month without any sort of hand off.
This also doesn't cover the fact that not all worlds will harvest and plant at the same time other worlds do. One world may well be in summer, while another in the same system might be in winter.
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Karagin
05/05/22 09:22 PM
70.118.172.64
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Let's remember one huge fact, a star system (or let's call it a solar system) will have MORE than a single world. Now it makes logical sense, even for the Battletech universe, that as many worlds and moons, etc ... that can be inhabited, mined, or somehow exploited would indeed be done so. So for a whole star system to be short something, well that's hard to really get over. I can see a planet or moon having a bad harvest and needing to import food, sure, that makes sense, but things happen. But the entire system having shortages of materials, etc...unless there is no iron, iridium, copper, gold, silver, etc...to be found in the entire system I still not seeing the logical sense of it, again even for Battletech.
As I said, it's an excuse to cover up poor writing, and no, I am not an expert on writing, but I am well-read, and seeing how there are numerous examples of sci-fi settings similar to Battletech, and when they can give logical reasons as to why a system is short something and do so in a manner that plays into the whole, then I have to say the lazy writing by the powers that be does come up as telling. Say similar know a 17-year build-up of a military that can run all over the Inner Sphere and Clans without really a second thought, whereas last time it took our bad guys something 300 years (game time) to get to the point to be able to do what the last version of the villains did.
Moving back on things, I can see shortages of parts, I can see SKILLED manpower issues. I can even see transportation issues, jumpships can't be everywhere and freight costs money and time to move, I can even see that. However, saying an ENTIRE star system is out of materials to keep an interstellar nation going...then I must ask, why don't see we reports of strip-mined worlds that bleed dry and are left as husks that are found in all the Houses?
Going back to the point of the Terran Hegemony being out of materials, did they strip mine the Sol System and every single system inside the Hegemony? Again it's an excuses, and a poor one at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
05/07/22 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Let's remember one huge fact, a star system (or let's call it a solar system) will have MORE than a single world. Now it makes logical sense, even for the Battletech universe, that as many worlds and moons, etc ... that can be inhabited, mined, or somehow exploited would indeed be done so. So for a whole star system to be short something, well that's hard to really get over. I can see a planet or moon having a bad harvest and needing to import food, sure, that makes sense, but things happen. But the entire system having shortages of materials, etc...unless there is no iron, iridium, copper, gold, silver, etc...to be found in the entire system I still not seeing the logical sense of it, again even for Battletech.
A Time of War makes the same point on p. 371-372. BattleTech's planets are rarely, truly short of any mineral, and few materials are moved by JumpShip between interstellar markets. No reasonable number of JumpShips could meet a planet's needs for food or common materials like iron (consumed by the gigaton annually), which ATOW takes pains to point out.
Rather, as a planet's USILR Resource score goes downhill, locals have to use more complicated, expensive mining techniques. Humanity was spoiled when it reached the stars - most planets had resources like pre-industrial Terra, untapped, rich metal deposits that were all played out on Terra by 2100.
The numerous Touring the Stars publications also make note of what might actually be imported and exported. Current publications also eliminate the idea that bulky, large-mass resources like food, fuel, iron, concrete, etc. might be imported from other star systems. There's instead an emphasis on importing and exporting luxuries or small-volume, small-mass resources like rare earths or platinum-group metals.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/07/22 05:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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So with the retcon and actual logic inputs of the newer books, are they going to fix all the errors of the older stories? Such as being able to starve out systems of resources thru a blockade or taking systems used to move those goods that are no longer needed?
A few battles were done because of the need to open supply lines to feed worlds that were not under attack, such as a few in the Draconis March during the Civil war. The impact of losing the so called bread basket worlds in areas, needing to rework the economy of those areas. This definitely changes how history would have gone, meaning the current state of the nations would be far different.
It is nice that some logic is finally getting put in.
But then the idea of not attacking jumpships, or jumpships makers, as they were needed to keep the IS going is now void.
It also means jumpships would require weapons, as they are NOT invalid targets with this retcon information.
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Requiem
05/07/22 06:52 PM
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So with the retcon and actual logic inputs of the newer books, are they going to fix all the errors of the older stories?
Q.E.D.
Such as … Post Succession War(s) – in the event any world retains their Star League era technology the ability to propagate said technology over a wider area can be achieved. Thus in approximately 100 years (at a guess) an entire House’s technology should be as it was during the Star League Era.
The entire central belief that each House is now in a post-apocalyptic wasteland of technology, as well as the belief that ComStar has the ability to restrict technology now becomes a fallacy.
What is now factual is that …
Jump-ships are no longer minimised – massive amounts of transports can be re-built quickly as every world’s technology increases so too does their ability to rebuild
Warships are no longer extinct – the idea that House loses any specific technological base is now no longer believable.
Primitive engines never return due to the retention of Star League technology.
And the list goes on and on … as it impacts every business and every employment throughout the Inner Sphere …
Thus each House’s R&D - and the size of their Military Industrial Complex will determine any future conflict.
It is just not a few battles, it is now the entire Battletech base premise, as is now completely flipped over! Everything will now have to be re-written as the ability to recover from a Succession War should not be a hinderance as postulated.
Thus we have a race to recover from the Succession War – as the fist to recover will have a competitive advantage over that of its competitor Houses.
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an emphasis on importing and exporting luxuries or small-volume, small-mass resources like rare earths or platinum-group metals.
Question – given the sheer mass of any system of planets – the idea that rare earths remain rare is a sheer statistical impossibility? Thus, it is just a question of discovering deposits and then mining them?
That said during the era of planetary discover / excavations – cant we assume that in the interests of efficiency during the expansion into space - there is some type of planetary scanner that can be used via a satellite to undertake a complete planetary report – that includes its ability to sustain human life and a metallurgical report?
That is when investigating planets – what is there to assist an exploration group?
Also Jump-ships would not only require naval grade weapons they would also require aerospace fighter support.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/08/22 04:31 AM
45.51.181.83
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The lack of trained techs to build and run facilities is still an issue. The decline in tech isn't changed. The materials used to build things as well as the ability to produce food has.
The fact that Comstar runs the communication network has not changed. They still have the ability to cause glitches in the coms system to change some wording around so they can cover for issues.
The nuking of worlds to the stone age did not change.
The changing of worlds owners has. Jumpship numbers should be much lower now as well. Warships would not have made the huge comeback either. Large nations could very well have splintered into smaller defense pacts, as the ability to send large armies into different territories would have come about. No need to import things. Those that could build jumpships would have a monopoly on transports, as each house would have kept after shipyards, until only a few remained, and those would be very heavily guarded.
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Karagin
05/08/22 02:04 PM
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The planets have shortfalls that can happen and don't need to be changed per-say, what needs to be changed is how often it happens. During the Fed-Com Civil War, I can still see trade disruption or an attempt at a blockade causing issues for a planet/star system. If you can't get your goods out of the system, then that's an issue. Which in turn can lead to localized issues. Again the example from the original Perphiery sourcebook about shoes and food, and being less than one jump apart, yet not being able to do anything cause no jumpships.
The devil is in the details and that is where the issues come to play. I will say this, and it's my opinion, but given the number of Line Developers and Heads we have seen from the mid-90s to now, means a lot of things were tossed because the new guy doesn't like what the older ones had done or never liked anything and wants to fix it. A clear example of this is how stupid the Houses were written to be when it came to internal issues and localized events. We had an entire run of the game based on this whole idea that the uber-factions needed to be uttered and thus got what we got. So the same is true when it comes to how they show the worlds. Average House has roughly 400 or so planets that we know of, this is a guess, I haven't gone and counted all of them, and with this, we know of only a handful. And of that handle full, we know nothing about the system they are in.
Yes, Touring the Stars does try to give some system data, but its focus is the main world, nothing is there about how Dirtball's fifth planet has fifteen ore processing plants and has a large Ferro armor plant as well. Or how the gas giant in the system is one of the other reasons it's even settled due to the exotic gases found there and the numerous orbiting habs. Not we get everything about Dirtball 3 and how it's been attacked and how it's fared. Great, but the system itself is more important that Dirtball 3. The planet is there for the workers to have planetary leave, and the corporations to have a base to use to keep their workers somewhat happy with leave to a place they don't have to worry about an air leak killing them.
Now I know this is a wargame first, based around mechs fighting other mechs, got that. However, the majority of us are not 10 years old anymore and our tastes are more geared towards plots and backgrounds and such. I say this because of the background info in BATTLEDROIDS and BATTLETECH 2nd. pulled me in more than just the cool mechs. Those added flavors of their own but the backstory hooked me.
I am hoping with the "new" era of the game will see a better approach to things and less of the uber-Avenger superhero appoarch.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/08/22 02:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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Another thing for the Inner Sphere is they have been at war since well since the start of interstellar travel and exploring began. So for the common citizen of a planet, they don't care who's flag is flying above the government buildings as long as they can go about their daily lives without being harassed. Taxes will still be collected regardless of what power runs things.
The ones that care and should be getting a lot more attention are the corporations and other companies that make the weapons and machines. Those should be some of the major players in the game/universe setting and really we don't see that hardly at all, and we do, it's somehow an extension of one of the main house families or a relation to the Ruler of a House.
The Chaos March was a perfect chance to have the major weapons makers going in and playing kingmakers, instead we got a meh story line aiming at the Word of Blake and their silliness. Yawn fest. All the minor plots and possible moving forward things that did get mentioned also got ignored.
The reality in the Inner Sphere should be one of the endless opportunities sparked by endless corruption and shifting loyalties of different companies and such.
The Red Duke is a prime example, he was the perfect villain, moving around, doing his own thing, sometimes doing what his lord Kurtia wanted, other times all of it was about his wanting to take a world or company, etc...we need more of that in the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/08/22 06:20 PM
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The lack of trained techs to build and run facilities is still an issue.
An established planetary education system established by each House (as noted above) = a profusion of trained “professionals”.
Therefore, there is NO technological decline.
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The fact that Comstar runs the communication network has not changed.
In an era where technology is on the rise equates to one reality – ComStar is no longer a monopoly when it comes to communication – over time other Communication system providers will enter the market.
Also,
Also wouldn’t every house take into consideration ComStar? Transport of Education / establishing new businesses from one world to the next will require Jump-ships and Drop-ships – thus the ability to circumvent Comstar is achievable.
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The nuking of worlds to the stone age did not change.
Basic reasoning would suggest that - only if EVERY world was nuked to stone age and EVERY depository of technological knowledge was destroyed as well as the majority of every persons who retains specialised knowledge do we end up with the situation as described by canon.
The probability / statistical nature of this occurring – especially in an era where hidden bases should be prevalent – becomes an impossibility.
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Warships would not have made the huge comeback either
They are the biggest gun on the battlefield – as they would always be the first to make a comeback as any sane military general would hide their production facilities from all other states.
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The devil is in the details
Agree.
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the common citizen of a planet, they don't care who's flag is flying above the government buildings
Agree, the story of the bank note where one side is Kurita and the other Federated Suns comes to mind due to the number of times the world switched hands over such a short time frame.
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A clear example of this is how stupid the Houses were written to be when it came to internal issues and localized events.
Basic transference of knowledge from one line developer to the next should have been implemented – as well as a basic understanding of being rational would have helped.
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a lot more attention are the corporations and other companies
Agree – every planet should have a section that describes this as well as their technology, architectural preference, personal life of every citizen based on their socio-economic position would have also been of assistance.
The background of BattleTech universe needs a vast amount of work.
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The reality in the Inner Sphere should be one of the endless opportunities sparked by endless corruption and shifting loyalties of different companies and such.
Agree – the devil is in the detail provided.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/08/22 08:54 PM
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Are there computer chips made in your area? Are there computer boards made in your area? How about titanium catalytic converters?
To my knowledge, those are made in specific places, and the tech is NOT found everywhere else. So when a company will only make say fusion engines on one world, and that world is the only place they keep the way to build them, and the only world that has this information is nuked or destroyed, R&D has to research the tech again, which may or may not get hit as well.
So you can not just build chips in the middle of the ocean because you want to. The information for building them is NOT going to be in the public library, as that is an infringement of copyrights and such.
It seems the simple fact that a large company with a monopoly on something like interstellar coms would do everything it can to keep that monopoly, including out right killing those researching it. Accidents would be more like it, but even an accidental weapons malfunction or explosion in the acid tanks would work. And with the coms being owned by the suspect, they would very much report the accident their way, and counter or have 'data failure' when being presented another way. A nation that tried to do something about it would find itself under interdiction, which would give other nations the ability to take worlds. Pirates are known to know when things like this happen as well.
As with most research, it seems only one or two people know what is going on, so you really don't need to wipe out an entire base.
The large companies should have had a lot of pull in the SL time. The First lord had power, but they also had to keep others happy as well. Richard didn't learn this, and was shown the hard way. The fact that these companies would probably have more power then house lords doesn't seem to come into play. I agree, this is in error. Their power would rise even more as competition is destroyed, such as the succession wars did.
But a lack or relying on imports creates an issue. There isn't any economic reason to join with a large nation when NAPs and such would allow you protection without being part of the larger nation. The multi nation companies would have the backing of multitudes of people, just so they could keep getting their stuff for a reasonable price.
Threats or actually taking properties would result in real issues, unless others can cover for it. Treachery would be there without a doubt. But someone like Brewer running Defiance should very well have destroyed the Skye region and beyond when they even attempted to take away Defiance from him.
The fact of resources being in system, but needing to get to them, should have meant the wars would have taken out dropship manufacturers as well as jumpship manufacturers. Otherwise, destroying all infrastructure in a system is the only real way to prevent them from rebelling. Aeropilots would be the main focus, not mech pilots.
So as much as I hate it, this all comes down to no game without mechs.
Having every one being able to build them at record pace, just means small unit actions can not really take place. Even simple raids would not be less then battlions in size. It couldn't be, as the targets would all have battlions guarding them if this is the case.
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Karagin
05/08/22 11:11 PM
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The treaty points part is how most of the Houses were formed to start with. Those things have clauses and catches and language so written to be interpreted for how ones want to read it, those thing should be coming up more and more, as one "minor" state screams how the rest of the minor powers of the House make up aren't upholding their parts. Oh wait that sounds very familiar, like wait...it's there, you will get the hint, and then the cries of breaking away and talks of leaving or boycotts, etc...would come up.
There is so much that TPBT could be doing to spin even more life and excitement and plots and counterplots into the BT universe, but yet they seem to have forgotten the core insanity of the universe.
Corporations should be playing minor lords off on each other and doing their own "world/king making" on many worlds. We see many "fluff" points in the TRO that we don't see making anything of an appearance in the rest of the setting, like the Dragoons selling Mad-IIs to more merc units or how New Valencia has more plants for Blackwell and other companies that worked with the Dragoons, so as not have everything on Outreach, and yet that point is either forgotten or overlooked. As you said if a company is only making something on one world well if that's destroyed then well it's going to hurt a lot of folks.
And I live in Texas, not far from Austin, so yes computer tech is big here. Though we would enough seeing Austin go away in a mushroom cloud, that's more for their state of mind than anything else.
The wars should have crippled everything, nothing should have made it past the First War if that was the main plan. Again it clearly wasn't. And that is why I have never been a fan of a single lance guarding an entire world. I get it, it's easy to write about four mechwarriors and their mechs, then an entire battalion, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. One lance is not going to control or hold a world. It didn't make sense to me in the 80s and still doesn't right now 38 years later.
Given how things are, every corporation on a world would have its own security force, be it a company of overpaid infantry to a Lance or two of mechs. Those would either work with the local defense force or be considered a wildcard by said same. Those causing issues a raider could use. Also, one corporation could have cut a deal with several raiders to ignore their property and forces and they won't attack them. That would cause issues for the defenders and to some extent the attackers. This would be pretty common. And then that leads into all the classifications of weapons on worlds and how well you know how certain groups can by pass the laws...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/09/22 01:09 AM
45.51.181.83
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The issue is narrative. One lance holding a world isn't correct. One mech lance would be the 'main' threat for most, but armor and infantry would be there as well. The king of the battlefield seems to be the 'only' threat the game likes to put out there. Yet we do know armor and infantry can hold worlds as well. Granted, they are not going to hold back an RCT effectively, but we know 4 mechs couldn't do so.
The First War probably ran out of nukes, and were making them as fast as they could. But with Kurita believing the FS was the only real threat, and the rest would fold once the FS did, it would be to their advantage to have facilities they could basically take over and run, verse the full glow in the night settings implied.
It I recall the old books, the DC didn't stop to wipe out everything that could resist on worlds, as they tried to race to New Avalon to end the war quickly. Crippling the enemy's ability to fight back was the main goal, not full destruction.
With this in mind, the DC probably thought they would be fine, as the LC wasn't about to really strike into the DC and hurt them much. So their belief would have been their assets were safe. And they found out that wasn't really the case.
At first, I would think each company would have avoided the costs of their own large security forces, until Amaris took earth. Then an arms race would have happened, which would have been a problem for each nation. This may well have been why the houses stayed out of it, as they had large pockets of uncontrolled forces popping up in their realms. They probably thought they could not afford to send what they had out of the nation, least they be hit by the new forces. It is also possible their own soldiers quit to join the new forces.
That does not mean a few would not have had their 'private pirate' forces raiding others, making it look like rival nations. I doubt the governments were the only ones doing so.
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Requiem
05/09/22 01:26 AM
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Are there computer chips made in your area?
Consider how computers have been integrated into society – therefore by extrapolation by the Star League era they would be attached to almost everything (Hopefully within reason). Thus, it would be easy to conjecture that every world should have multiple corporations manufacturing them given how commonly they utilised within everyday life.
I would also suggest they are probably being made in High School by students by the time of the Star League!
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It seems the simple fact that a large company with a monopoly on something like interstellar coms would do everything it can to keep that monopoly
How is that working for any computer corporation lately?
How many corporations have Competition and Consumer Acts that eliminate monopolies?
Also establishing franchises upon different worlds can be used to restrict monopolist tendencies – as a local board is required to run a local business.
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The large companies should have had a lot of pull in the SL time.
How many times was this included in the narrative? Last time I remember was when a CEO was sent to the front lines as a new Fed Suns recruit for disobeying the First Prince …
There is economic power – However as the game is military in nature how often is this even considered? just like logistics practically never?
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destroying all infrastructure in a system is the only real way to prevent them from rebelling.
Whist at the same time destroys the entire economic foundation of your house and sparks a coup to remove the House Lord who even considered this.
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Having every one being able to build them at record pace, just means small unit actions can not really take place.
Except when you require a rapid commando raid – then you will need a unit of LAMs.
Then there are new / poor worlds – who have limited manufacturing capabilities – thus small units can be used … or even attacking a lunar / asteroid facility … something about overkill should be considered here …
There could be many reasons why a small unit may be required …
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The treaty points part is how most of the Houses were formed to start with.
Consider the Star League … this was supposed a economic union to assist with cross border trade …
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they seem to have forgotten the core insanity of the universe.
Problem – the writing staff number would have to increase by an exponential amount (and by extension the number of books) to actually facilitate this
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/09/22 11:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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Monopoly laws don't exist in the game. Kind of odd that this fact wasn't thought of when stating the How is that working for any computer corporation lately?
How many corporations have Competition and Consumer Acts that eliminate monopolies?
This is related to the whole tech problems. How to make certain things was not as wide spread because those that owned the tech kept it locked away in few places. When those places got bomb/raided/hacked the tech was lost.
Economic power is in the game. But very specific in scope. Defiance, being one of those where economics is counted. It is overshadowed by the fact it is the largest mech manufacturer, so most don't see past the mechs.
The destruction of all infrastructure is about the only way to make sure a world will not be able to fight back. If their survival relies on imports, as they can not get things themselves, they will still be mad, and ready to attack when they can, but will reframe until they are back to self sufficient. Until they reach that point, you do not have to station RCTS of units to prevent this. Those units can be sent elsewhere. Is it the best solution? No. In the first 2 wars, it might have been necessary until the supply chain collapsed from the ships being destroyed. Many worlds died from not being able to support themselves.
So many extra units means new worlds would have large garrisons, as they had the units to spare. Commando raids using lams would work, but that would also mean trying to hid fighters from the enemy, that with all those extra units patrolling, wouldn't do as unnoticed as you would think. Shuttles would be more likely to slip by. Context here: Unknown fighters means military forces outside of your own. Unknown shuttle could be just a glitch in scheduling. It is more then likely the rich had illegal goods being brought in. Contraban verse military invasion.
So no. A lance could not operate on it's own when everyone can build as many units as they can afford. They have to have large numbers in order to distract the enemy from them.
The game started out as a war game with stompy mechs. When they started filling in the back ground, they didn't realize the black hole of illogics they opened up. Keeping it simple worked for a while, until they pushed the illogical aspects of it. Mainly things like starving worlds when the entire transportation network could not support moving foods to cover them in the first place. Water being even more necessary.
One a side note, does Twycross discuss anything about how they grow food to feed their population? The storms would wreack havoc on above ground facilities. I would assume underground hydroponics, but this leads to other questions, like why other worlds didn't have this in hostile environments?
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Karagin
05/09/22 02:05 PM
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Their ideas weren't bad ones, they needed BETTER logical reasons. As for the Twycross, underground population and support centers are mentioned, so that would in a roundabout way cover hydroponics or a similar setup for feeding the population. Also, this would be a case of mech parts and weapons going out, and food coming in.
The issues came from writers, not all being on the same page and then trying to fit everything into a package that had outgrown the box they wanted to keep it in. If you read any of the novels by the Keith brothers, you get a mix of hard science and sci-fi mixed together nicely, yet you don't see much of that from the other writers for both novels or sourcebooks. Novels are there to fill in the story and give us an insight into the universe and the characters. Sourcebooks fill in all the other details and pull us in more.
Somewhere along the way, well they seemed to have missed how to blend the two together. Then as time did move on and we got different writers and new folks doing the writing, we see even more errors, more personal I like this so it's going in because I like it type of thing. That causes more issues.
The need to supply worlds with certain things, be it materials to make other things, finished goods, food, etc...is going to be part of the human condition and a way to keep the world dependent on the House government, you know keep the colonies under a trade embargo unless it's our own stuff. Which opens the doors for smugglers and other criminal groups. Now, this is limited since in the Battletech you need a jumpship to leave a system. Whereas in other Sci-fi settings the spaceships can jump out of the system without that weakness. Now, this does set things apart and makes the game different as well as the setting different. However, it also limits what can be logically done.
I do believe that sometimes the writers forget these massive limitations and we read about events that just can't happen since no logical way or path for ships to get there or not be there exists with the limits of the game's setting for starships.
Now I know that so of TPTB do try to work within things and others play really lose with the limits, but mix them together and we get a ton of issues. The reality for the average citizen is going vary from House to House, world to world. Some will be living the dream, others will be getting by and then others still will be grounded under. This would apply to every House and world. As well as the Clans.
The original Housebooks (even with their flaws) tried to give a good insight into things, and really we need that level of detail back in the game. We need a full Housebook, not these abominations that we have got called Handbooks. We need real Housebooks that give us all the details of the Houses. Many of our questions and such could be addressed with proper sourcebooks and a set plan from the entire writing pool. However, based on some of the rumors abound things aren't always nice with TPTB when it comes to working together. And having dealt with a few personally, I can see why.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/09/22 04:33 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Monopoly laws don't exist in the game.
Problem … TPTB have yet to provide a complete codification of all laws per state and even per world.
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How to make certain things was not as widespread because those that owned the tech kept it locked away in few places. When those places got bomb/raided/hacked the tech was lost.
Are these individuals now working against the state in-order-to minimise its prosperity and security?
Something that is the prima facie duty of the Head of every State.
Thus, can we now assume that, every Head of every state is actively not working to achieve their ultimate goal of becoming the new First Lord by refusing to implement economic reform policies that would ensure victory … such as … increase education throughout their realm …. increase franchise business operations from one world to the next, in-order-to propagate technology and the military industrial complex / civilian industrial complexes throughout their realm … and by the way at the same time increasing profit and wealth of the stockholders of these companies … something that no stockholder ever wants (satire).
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Economic power is in the game.
Can I laugh now?
Consider the Lyran state, they decided to ignore the right of succession to put a general (who has no wealth and no direct lineage) to the Archon throne – in all rights a coup!
… and how about Huntress, how many corporations would have demanded a copy of the complete technology of Clans to increase their profitability – or how about Helm memory core how was this information used by corporations, who got it first … and by extension a competitor advantage over their competitors?
Sorry but the entire idea of a corporation / economic development, even for Defiance, having any power whatsoever is completely lost.
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The destruction of all infrastructure is about the only way to make sure a world will not be able to fight back.
So let me get this … as a ruler of the realm your duty is not to fear your neighbours it is actually to fear education and technological development of the people and their businesses, it is to ensure that they should remain ignorant peasants (as educating peasants is wrong) is now the correct policy of every House Lord?
Also every world should never be allowed to communicate with their House Lord in a time of famine and to expect any form of assistance.
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So no. A lance could not operate on it's own when everyone can build as many units as they can afford. They have to have large numbers in order to distract the enemy from them.
Then how do Seal – Special Warfare Units operate throughout the world – why do we even have them if they cannot operate due to every country they operate within being far larger?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/09/22 09:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah, I guess the tech got nuked, but the people that owned it survived the nuke. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Oh wait. How many people that own the tech now actually know what it is and how to make it? Most CEOs and owners never touched the stuff they bought up.
And yet the argument about the houses spreading the tech comes up again. The fact that for them to do so, would be getting permission from those that own it, to release it, or outright take that knowledge from them and start a full scale rebellion funded by the rich that own that tech.
Since it isn't written, it is assumed the super rich did not gain the tech. As the game has not done anything to support the tech being gained, but restricted to a time frame before use does lend to this. Yet the entire fact that the tech was already researched, and ignored due to cost problems, what good is getting it from Huntress? So where does this argument come from? The tech was known, just prevented from being used. Reading is fundumental.
So you will go down that road again? The discussion of the destroying all resources was done with the concept of invaders making sure their newly conquered worlds would not rise up in revolt.
A lance operating on a world in another STARSYSTEM, is not the same thing as sneaking into an unsecured border. It is also not the same thing as sneaking into a nation that has thousands of soldiers along ever mile of borderland/coast. The use of jump points would not work as each ship approaching a world would be surrounded by battalions of fighters and possibly dropships and warships. The entire jump detection gear would be set up so it covered the entire system, including pirate points. It would also be likely the defenders would have ships covering pirate points, as they would be well aware of them. If done right, they would have sensors in unihabited systems that would tell the defender if someone jumps into them, and they are within jump range of the defenders world.
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ghostrider
05/09/22 10:11 PM
45.51.181.83
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I was asking about Twycross and the farms as it would be a step in questioning the lack of them on other worlds. I understand food would be shipped in on ships coming to the world to pick up units, but this does suggest that things other then the crown jewels are sent to world for trade, even if they were only bought and shipped.
The writers should have been proof read by the developers to make sure the illegal things, like cranking in a torso, so you can gain more arc with the arms, was legal. I understand the stretching of things to make a story interesting, but when it violates the rules by a wide margin, then gets argued it wasn't legal to begin with, it causes issues. This isn't something that hasn't been discussed are basically agreed to.
Some things like a mech doing a front flip and not landing, but floating on their jets to avoid squashing people is a huge issue.
As stated in the past, the developers created more issues trying to fill in the past. I do understand the need to change things as implied concepts don't hold up when new things are introduced. But when they go from max 30 light year range with jump drives to being able to cross the entire IS in one jump is too much. Nothing said that Comstar had been working on it before WOB took over Terra, so it is implied it all was done during that time frame.
And as for making new mechs, the fact that it was so difficult to do for a long while, yet even before the Helm Core, a lot of new models come out, including those that were done by techs, not engineers doesn't fit the history/story line. I know real time prevented the developers from actually making the history work, but to say that no one found a secret manufacturing plant that made say the Devastator mech, or the Alacorn tank? They didn't refurbish factories that could make them, so only specific manufacturers could? Most of the lost periphery bases is another big thing. Not talking of something like the impossible because of rules Argo dropship, but fully functional bases that seem to be found, and only looted, not restored by the big nations.
The concept of the Dragoons being there to find those bases known to the SLDF or other clans comes to mind here.
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Karagin
05/09/22 10:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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The way mechs get used in the novels, like being able to JUMP out of a landing/hover dropship and have NO issues is pardon the comment bovine droppings. Same with the whole idea you are going put a cocoon around them and drop them onto a planet and do so in a manner that somehow avoids every detection system on a planet. Tons of "artistic licenses" are way overused to have things happen that make no sense and really ruin the stories in a lot of ways.
Filling in the past is fine, doing it so as to make things mesh, is different. If you are going back to fill in things you need to be sure you don't destroy what is already known. For example, if the first Battlemech was the Mackie, then having one that is far lighter than it as the next one to come along, well that doesn't really make a ton of sense, but that is a minor issue. Another big issue is putting something like stealth armor for mechs, as being researched by the same company that makes the GRASSHOPPER mech during the late Star League early 1st Succession War time frame, that is a big issue since it makes it's apparently nothing more than "another retcon added to the Helm Memory Core".
I mean how big was this core? Was it an STC like they have WH40K or a Perpetual Taco Machine that you feed what you want and press a button, and poof you get said item?
Lots of R&D stuff would be common across the Inner Sphere, Houses would be trying everything to get the next leg up each other and we should see a bigger push to have more universities on more planets and such vs just a few key worlds or locations.
ComStar should have had a HUGE R&D section that was doing everything from trying to build new HPGs to increasing the range of them. They should have also been reverse-engineering SL tech and if their silliness of the WoB building a military that was so big and large, then they had to have the R&D, but I know the answers to that are they had the support of the nobles and such of Terra and thus POOF they got everything they needed, damn those perpetual taco machines.
The game's backstory has a lot of room to fill in everything and actually answer/address all the concerns the fans have had. The issues become this, how badly do TPTB really want to fill in the backstory, and badly do they want input from the fans?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/09/22 10:47 PM
70.118.172.64
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Twycross is an odd world, so using it as an example is a bit on the extreme side, but it's a valid point, some worlds would be hard-pressed to starve out, short of a bio-weapon being used to hurt crops and livestock.
Water is a different issue, some planets have things industries want and need to make the weapons to keep the Houses able to provide the military to keep them in business. So having the water planet taken out or an issue with the quantity of water shipped to a mining colony would be one way some of the issues of blockades and such could lead to other shortages happening.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/09/22 11:36 PM
101.185.82.214
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As most CEOs are driven by the desire to increase wealth whist maintaining a positive relationship with the central power that governs the realm and who also makes the laws that keeps their business in operation and runs the tax department. The argument that suggests these CEOs and their board would go against their Liege Lord – who is attempting, by any means necessary to become the next First Lord of the Inner Sphere - is a little farfetched.
By transferring knowledge and business skills to multiple worlds the CEO is not only increasing their wealth they are also assisting their Liege Lord – who also has-the-ability-to confer peerage (noble rank) upon a cooperative CEO, who’s significant other would be extremely happy about the idea of joining the nobility should be considered.
Also consider the point of what happens if your CEO causes problems with their Lord and they decide the Government is going o nationalise the company
So unless you have a CEO who is not only against making money (for themselves and their stockholders), is willing to defy their Lord’s rational program of converting the realm into a more prosperous, and defence orientated, and at the same time does not care about obtaining peerage, whist at the same time turning their significant other into their worst nightmare when they divorce them for not obtaining a peerage and entering into a higher social set, then all is great in the Universe. (Satire once again)
I would also like to say since when did a Liege Lord of a Realm require the permission of a CEO to undertake a program that would not only make her/him personally wealthy, but would also increase the wealth of their shareholders? Also wouldn’t the shareholders get a little ‘miffed’ if it came out their CEO lost them an opportunity to increase their wealth just because they did not want to expand to another world? At this point wouldn’t they vote the CEO out and replace them with one who is a little more profit orientated?
Can you point to when the rich and powerful started a rebellion because they did not want to increase their wealth? Wouldn’t it be the other way around - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
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it is assumed the super-rich did not gain the tech.
So the dissemination of technology never occurs in order to secure the safety of the realm when their neighbours begin to upgrade their weapons packages as well as all civilian technology in order to increase the personal wealth of the realm whist decreasing unemployment – so long term prosperity was never a consideration for any liege lord of any realm?
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what good is it getting it from Huntress?
Really? … not only does any realm receive a massive influx of technology they can also receive educators (who were convinced that returning to the IS was in their best interest) - thus any realm receives a massive technological and socio-economic advantage over that of their competitor neighbours is no longer important …
Cost Problems … does no one even consider requesting a loan from the bank, issue bonds, or undertake a variety of other economic strategies to generate wealth that can be used to fund the expansion of the business – or don’t these exist in the Battletech Universe? (Satire, once again)
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destroying all resources was done with the concept of invaders making sure their newly conquered would not rise-up.
So let me get this straight it is better for the realm not integrate any industrial world into your realm, and in so doing increase the overall GDP of the realm, it is more important to turn that world into an agrarian culture – on the same line of Pol Pot (Cambodia) and others – and thus ensuring that whilst you destroy an entire worlds society / economy it would never commence a guerrilla war – whereas in all reality, given all historical evidence to the contrary, if any massive disturbance on such a scale did occur it will most definitely kick off a guerrilla war (rise up in revolt).
Also how is a military expected to undertake such an action on a planetary wide scale?
Question – does every world have access to a massive military presence or are the military deployment assigned to a particular world based upon their importance. Thus, less important worlds are more likely to maintain only a smaller garrison thus making the chances of a raid by a lance a higher probability as the distribution of resources would determine the required number for an adequate strike group?
That is if you have a decent intelligence department, they can find the worlds that will only require a small strike-group to achieve overall success.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/10/22 07:40 AM
101.185.82.214
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Hopefully when understanding my governmental policies to increase economic stability and the military industrial complex many may come to realize that the majority of House Leaders have been incredibly sub-par when it comes to their ability to reform their House.
They even do not have “assistant” when it comes to managing the realm! Or even the use of a ‘Nay-Sayer’ would be of assistance to underpin their hegemony.
It is not surprising, therefore, that the majority of the Inner Sphere is a basket case when reading canon text.
What is surprising is the competent do not attempt to remove the incompetent rulers of their realms – there should be far more assassinations / coups within the game considering how many incompetent rulers there were – surely competent family members would have ensured the removal of any incompetent ruler.
If the game is supposed to be based upon feudalism – and liege lords – the idea that an incompetent ruler would live to a long age becomes difficult to believe without the support of the military and a very competent pretorian guard.
Also what are the rights and duties of the ruler and the citizens of each house. What are their social norms? And what unique social norms is applicable.
More information is required – this will make the game more exciting, whilst invigorating everything …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 11:18 AM
45.51.181.83
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Coupes come from a leader wanting power, and someone with the resources to supply them, backing them up. Things like sending the CEO of a company to the front lines isn't done. The others, including local nobles, that have stock or even a friendly relationship with those people do start things like rebellion, especially when others have the same issue with the nation ruler.
Even the Coordinator and the Chancellor don't have absolute power. This concept seems to be forgotten.
Making money leads to things like selling to all sides of a conflict, as well as beyond the bordering nations. Getting protection from having your assets stolen from all nations, not just the one you are in, allows for more money to be made. For the nation you are HQ'ed in, this is an issue. They do not want you selling to the enemy, yet that is how you make the most money.
I believe almost all of the manufacturers sell to all nations, with the exception of a time of war. An active hot war, as the succession wars never really ended until the clans came.
So angering your lord is done in the name of better profits.
I mistyped about the rich and tech. Most did not do the research to gain tech was supposed to be the point. Not sure why I put in gained. The company owners probably have never worked in the factories they owned.
Reread the statement and the old posts that deal with clan tech and why it wasn't done in the game. We know they didn't want the powerful tech in the IS so they could more easily attack the nations with junk without having to come up with yet another super enemy, which they tried to use the WOB for. But then the tech was known by the governments, or at least some of them, and not handed out to manufacturers in the IS.
When you are driving to destroy an enemy quickly, and have to go great distances to reach their capital, you are not worried so much about the factories and infrastructure you need to destroy to do so. You blow up everything the enemy can use against you and move on. You are on a time limit, and can't worry about the future like that.
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Karagin
05/10/22 03:32 PM
70.118.172.64
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Yes, total war means just that. Everything is a target. That was the First and Second Wars. After that well there wasn't much really left to destroy.
Tech is going to wane and wax. That has happened throughout history, sometimes new things are "found" or "made" or they are old things re-invented or given new life with more modern touches added to them.
A ruler can think they have total and complete power, but if they aren't the ones moving the daily bureaucracy along, then they don't have 100% complete and true power, someone else has to make their decrees happen. If folks won't do it or do it super slowly then that is very telling on who has the power in a House.
The WOB was a joke, a villain from WISH DOT COM. The new breed of TPTB wanted things cleaned up and they had to make the new owners happy by mixing in their click-based sci-fi game. So instead of a well done decent attempt at a Firth Succession War, we got the mess that was the Jihad, and the fact that someone at FANPRO/WizKids sold the idea that we the fans would buy a sourcebook that pages of wiggles and binary and needless silliness really got one over on the company because sadly we did.
Much of the tech that is now common in the Inner Sphere should be on its way to the scrap yards or back to the arenas of Solaris VII.
The manufacturers will sell to all sides, they have no real allegiance to any House, now some might not sell during the war to a certain House, but that is about it. Profit over House Loyalty is their main motto. This is why we should see more from these manufacturers and others since they are the ones that allow the Houses to remain at war.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 04:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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What supports the companies selling to everyone is those companies that span multiple nations. They do not say that a mech is only made in the CC, so it is not available for sale elsewhere. Earthworks is one that works in multiple nations.
For all the mechs Defiance puts out, do you think they sell only to the LC? Even before the merger, they were selling to others. If they only sold to the LC, then they would have taken over the government, or broke. A few mechs would be house only, such as the Zeus. But look at what each house makes and notice some mechs are in their general line up, yet not made in that nation.
The total war statement is great. It should solve that discussion. I agree that it means destruction of anything that could be an issue.
Profit is a large part of selling to all, but security comes into effect as well. Having friends in other nations means your company is less likely to be hit with a major destructive raid. It also means the nation hosting your facilities are going to have some issues if they decide to annex your business.
As Karagin stated, the manufacturers allow their lords to do their wars. This means defense as well as offense. Upset them, and you might find they had some major mechanical issues, so your new company wasn't complete on time. Sad that you lost a world from it, but you will buy more mechs to get it back. (See the irony here?)
So let's talk about that tax raise on the company again.
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Karagin
05/10/22 06:00 PM
70.118.172.64
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Nowhere does it say the companies are limited because we know some mechs are built on different planets by different companies, Wolverine and a few others come to mine.
Issues come up when the newer TROs hint that only certain Houses have certain mechs, now while they may have the majority of those mechs, sales to other nations and mercs would still happen. No security comes in having plants on as many worlds as you can. That way you don't lose everything from bad choices, war, legal issues, etc...
I see can many companies doing that, oh hey you need mechs we gotcha..
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/10/22 06:24 PM
101.185.82.214
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Coups
They are also instituted to replace an incompetent leader who many believe is leading the state to ruin, or to remove a tyrannical leader.
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Even the Coordinator and the Chancellor don’t have absolute power.
Can you provide examples?
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Making money leads to things like selling to all sides of a conflict, as well as beyond the bordering nations.
Sorry but this is not the only case of increasing revenue. Another method is where a business expands its target market base, such as establishing a new business on a new world and thereby expanding their number of clients.
Question does your company have an export license or is this an illegal transaction?
As a competent auditor (investigator) with the tax department will have questions for the Board on an individual and corporation basis as to the source of the wealth – a competent accountants can only hide this for so long.
I would also like to point out, however, that certain military industrial corporations already have branches in other successor states so the idea that multinationals exist within the game.
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The succession wars never really ended until the Clans came.
This is however incorrect as rather than becoming First Lord through war many were scheming to find a loophole within the charter of the new Star League to ensure the post (voted by all members of the New Star League) can become permanent for life of the office holder – Katherine Steiner-Davion as an example.
Also, the story, post 3039 is in my opinion, off the rails from that point on … as well as the majority of history prior to approximately 3000 has a multitude of cringe worthy events that make no to little sense.
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So angering your lord is done in the name of better profits.
Two things occur in a feudal society at this point – the CEO has a ‘medical condition’ and is found deceased or two the business is nationalised, and the former board is replaced with government appointed individuals who understand their duty (prior to the former board members wealth and titles are stripped from them and prior to their investiture within the military in a high-risk operation where they can find redemption in a battlefield death).
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company owners probably have never worked in the factories they owned.
True, however, the more competent owners do have an insightful understanding of their business practices (including manufacturing) so as to identify waste / opportunities – ensure they can maximise profits – identify where new R&D can improve their business.
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the tech was known by the governments, or at least some of them, and not handed out to manufacturers in the IS.
So let me get this straight, governments officials are actively sabotaging their own military and their own House’s ability to stage an effective counter-attack (and in all likelihood survive) to retake lost territory to the Clans because they believe it will be a fiscal burden on the economy - is this correct?
So can we say 3rd column defeatists, quislings as well as Vichy? Also, if this is the case, then why did USA initiate Trinity due to massive R&D cost?
Sorry, but once again this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever from any logical point.
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You blow up everything the enemy can use against you and move on.
How did that work out of Napoleon on his march into Russia? Or the Germans in WW2?
Extensive supply lines are a recipe for disaster unless you can “live off the land” and use everything local, including factories and infrastructure, to assist with forward momentum.
Example the Clans acquiring IS military industrial facilities and re-tooling them to meet clan requirements so as to supplement their consumable requirements due to a vast (distance and time) logistics supply line… that was never taken advantage of and makes no sense whatsoever.
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Everything is a target.
Problem, not everything of significance on every world was destroyed – how many worlds were never attacked during the First and Second Succession Wars? Therefore, their underlying technology, their libraries, schools, and Universities, businesses, and infrastructure remain intact.
Also, ‘Total War’ means converting your entire production infrastructure as well as all your employees throughout your realm towards a war footing – so where is the massive increase in military production numbers (as seen during America WW2)?
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total and complete power
Suggest reading about the Soviet Government during Stalin’s reign and how his lackies were used to ensure his total and complete power over the Soviet people.
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WOB
The only positive was their technology – that in all rights should have been used against the Clans when rather than killing off one clan was used against all IS clans to kick them out of the IS and initiate a war within the deep periphery.
Other than that, the jihad era and everything post this era is a very sick joke that should have been consigned to the waste bin!
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Profit over House Loyalty
If this was the case, then the majority of the military industrial complex would have been nationalized by the state.
As a ruler and their realm cannot survive and prosper for very long if the military industrial complex is disloyal to their ruler and their state during the many centuries of war!
Stories involving disloyal military industrial complex CEOs however may prove a little dull for many of the readers, even with battles – business guard Vs the state as by this point in time the business will fall and the CEO will be found and executed for treason against the realm.
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Earthwerks Incorporated and Defiance Industries
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Earthwerks_Incorporated
“During the Succession Wars, the five Successor States took control of the local branches of Earthwerks, essentially converting one large company into five smaller ones.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Defiance_Industries
Can you please point out where it is written that Defiance sells its wares to non Lyran / Federated Commonwealth government clients?
Do they have a showroom on Solaris perhaps, also when did they acquire a foreign export license?
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Having friends in other nations means your company is less likely to be hit with a major destructive raid.
No, in all reality both the rules of war should keep your business safe in addition to the future requirements of the invading force to utilize your business for their own logistics requirements.
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… the manufacturers allow their lords to do their wars.
Who hols the whip handle in these realms? Rather than writing about Victor and Katherine, then the books should be more about some nameless individual in a board room discussing how they manipulate the house lords for their own nefarious profit driven aims …
Something like ComStar or a more accurate description can be seen in the Books / Anime Legend of the Galactic Heroes – The Dominion of Phezzan provides an excellent example of how economic might is used and how in all reality it is fragile when compared to military power.
In all reality if a CEO and board attempt to undermine their liege lord you had better consider the Barons at Runnymede.
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you might find they had some major mechanical issues … sad that you lost a world from it
Sad to say a Loki operatives assassinated the entire Board and then the Liege Lord transferred the business to another …or was assimilated into the state lock stock and barrel.
So yes, let us talk about the company tax rate and who is subordinate to who.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 11:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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Coups are done when ever someone thinks they can get away with it. More then enough times, the person trying to get power is just as bad or worse then those they are trying to replace.
Try reading the fluff of the books. Several coordinators could not just wipe out the disloyal generals, and the Chancellor has had similar problems. So they pit their subordinates against each other to avoid them ganging up on the leaders.
Funny how the investigators tend to have new expensive toys or get hit during a raid, and licenses get issued to those with money. Even the leaders get gifts to sidestep legal problems, though I don't know if it is illegal. The General Estates in the LC as well as the Parliment in the FWL would have more then a few that would go against the leaders when it suited them. A few million C-bills tends to do that. Might need 10s of millions, but its the same thing as today.
Again, get your time line straight. The 2nd SL happened AFTER the clans invaded. And Katherine never was first lord. So start reading canon properly, as the statements are heading back to alt, not canon.
Even during the times of the crazy leaders, seizing companies in ones realm was not done often. You start doing that, and all the companies decide to let you rot until you make it up to them. Worlds will side with companies as they are next to have their items seized. And this begins the rebellions that tear nations apart.
The bs with the clan tech being known and said was too expensive to be used was discussed before and few didn't say it was complete crap. Some of the tech would be used, and the prices would come down. Double sinks being a main one. The less crit taking ones, as opposed to the SL version. There is a lot more, but that one is almost a must.
The only tech that might have been needed to be taken from the Huntress is making the half weight missile launchers.
Might need to actually look at the game simplicity first. ACs made by different nations should not use the same ammo made by others. So a DC AC 20 should not be able to use the AC 20 ammo made by the FS. They do the same damage, but the bores and number of shots are different. Part of why the weapons don't fit into the other nations mechs without needing some modifications. A huge reason why Omni tech came about. The 20 ammo ranges from 185 to 200 MM in diameter. They state that in one of the books, and it is also in the TROs as well. This is why I was bringing up points about how the clan weapons keep the greater range when using IS ammo.
This makes the company more money, as you have to buy their ammo to work in their weapons.
Is that why the game states many things like universities were destroyed in the wars? Knowledge was targeted as well as the manufacturing plants were. If you want to win, you have to be the only one that can continue the war. That means only your loyal forces can build those weapons.
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ghostrider
05/10/22 11:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny. A leader making sure only they control things so the masses can't revolt? Sounds like destroying everything, so you don't have to waste man power protecting it. And it was enemy territory, it isn't like your people have to suffer for it.
Did I miss something? How is it the WOB tech should have been used against all the clans? They didn't participate in the clan war, and even went so far as to hit Comstar while they were fighting the clans. WOB was developing weapon systems to take out Comstar and all those that oppose the WOB. Why would it even be mentioned for taking out the clans? Still don't see that tech is not owned by all? Just a certain few, and they decide how to use it.
You want my factory? Try to run it when it is rubble. I will make sure you do NOT gain anything from the seizure, if possible. I will also make sure the tech you need to build my product is destroyed as well. Does that sound like a good reason so avoid upsetting company owners?
And their friends in the high government will help them resist any such bs. You will have a huge revolt on your hands if you try. The FS got away with it, only because Federated-Boeing had refused to support the defense of the nation. It was not done to prevent them from profiting from sales.
Before the merger, Defiance would not have been able to sell enough mechs to the LC to continue to expand. There are mechs that were sold to other nations. It was probably done thru third person deals, like the Kincaid deal with the CC. But I am sure the sales people from Defiance knew that ahead of time. The Atlas being one that would have been sold to others, as the DC did not have huge numbers being produced.
Rules of war? It appears you don't understand the rules of war. Only the victor gets to make what is right and wrong from a war. And in the war for total supremacy, destruction of the enemy's ability to fight is a prime target. ALL sides 'forgot' the rules of war in the first 2 succession wars. Nukes being the foremost, but not the only thing.
This is true when it is win or die.
Do you really think the archon told the Brewers they had to do things a certain way? Loki, and a few other agencies tried to remove heads of Defiance more then a few times. You don't think Fredrick didn't try in order to prevent them from helping Katrina over throw him? Or Ryan didn't try to get someone more sympathetic to his cause in office? Chandy himself went against the wishes of the Coordinator a few times. General Sandavol did the same thing a few times. It was only when he failed to take out the Dragoons, did Takashi finally remove him. Again. It is written in the game.
Oh yeah. Some mechs are sold across the border, as merc units buy them, and the sales agent KNOWs they are in a hostile realm.
As the only manufacturing company making the Awesome was the FWL, how do you think other nations got brand new units, not taken on the fields.
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Karagin
05/11/22 02:17 AM
70.118.172.64
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The idea is that the Inner Sphere SHOULD be reverse-engineering as much Clan tech as they can. And the silly line from the original TRO3050 was a bad call by TPTB at the time. It was there to keep folks from asking why haven't the Inner Sphere pushing their own versions. And what did folks ask? When will Inner Sphere catch up to the Clans or pass them...and we got the silliness of acid guns, and nail guns for mechs. Total crap. I will call it as I see it. Everything from chemical lasers to variable damage lasers to all other "lasers" is pure silliness.
The Inner Sphere should have been working to make versions of Clan armor, engines, etc....and we see some of that but then it's treated like total failures while nail guns and the rest get all the use or oh we need claws and spikes on mechs, and everything has to have TSM, this is a game about lances and higher sized forces fighting other similar units right? Not mechs fighting like Pro-Wrestlers. Yet again TPTB seemed to think that going that route was needed because it was too hard to give the Inner Sphere weapons just a few steps done from the Clans, instead we get WWF/WWE tossed in because that's what fans want.
And weapons will be different, but in-game terms the weapons all have similar stats, and a machine gun is a machine gun. Lasers made on Davion world might have a bit better heat to damage ratio but overall, they don't outperform the others so their stats would be the same as the other companies making medium lasers as far as the game goes.
Yes, victors write the history books and the losers of war are going to be demonized far more than they are during the war and it has been a common thing for man since Saron conquered the city-states of Mesopotamia. Not to go political, but morality doesn't win a war. And the only reason the Inner Sphere put rules in place is that many saw how insane things could get.
So the Ares Convention comes along, but like all of the other Conventions, it's given lip service and then ignored the second the bullets fly by all sides. Then here is a rub, did all the powers of the Inner Sphere sign it? Did all the mega-corporations sign it? How about those merc units? Oh they didn't, well then the Convention doesn't apply to them, thus they don't have to follow it or honor it.
All the minor nobles doing their own things should have and still should be fully explored and used for plotlines, but I doubt we will see much of that beyond what's needed to push the major storyline along, and these new minors will be tossed aside and left dangling in the wind like all the other ones.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/11/22 06:12 AM
101.185.82.214
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The Coup … characters must be based on a situational basis …
Try understanding the culture, there is nothing stopping an order given by the “Coordinator”, where you are extended the honour of death at you’re your own hand. Once initiated it cannot be interrupted for any reason …
Money does not always equate to privilege, to sidestep the legality of an issue within a feudal society, money usually requires familial obligation – more often than not it either brings glory or infamy, followed by a short and violent life.
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as this statements are heading back to alt, not canon
Try re-reading this once more – Katherine’s aim was to infuriate her brother Victor with her nomination of Liao, leaving her as the only rational alternative. Her machination at this stage was to find a loophole, whereby she would be the first to be nominated as First Lord for Life … it was only thwarted when Victor was able to see through her plan at one minute to midnight and confirm Liao as First Lord.
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crazy leaders, seizing companies
Castro and Cuba? … and every time a planet which holds a company, owned by a regional lord, is conquered by another House the ownership is thus transferred to whom?
What happens, also, to a Lord’s property if said Lord is found guilty of treason to the state … confiscation of property at the start.
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The only tech that might have been needed to be taken from huntress is making the half weight missile launchers
Sorry but the correct answer is EVERYTHING a complete copy of all technology as well as everything that is nailed down and can fit in a dropship for the return journey as well as a legion of former clansmen who will become the new teachers throughout the Inner Sphere.
An example – Medical knowledge why would anyone give up on the chance of increasing their advanced medical knowledge?
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ACs made by different nations should not use the same ammo made by others.
Question how long would it take to retool an ammunition facility so that it will be able to manufacture consumables specific for your needs in comparison to the time it takes for a requisition to be sent back to the Clan Home Worlds … which will then be needed to be completed … then sent by Jump-ship back to the Inner Sphere and finally catch up with your unit on the front line?
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That means only your loyal forces can build those weapons.
This will require the destruction of every world throughout the entire IS, where every building that maintains knowledge and technology has been reduced to rubble. How can anyone say that everything has been destroyed?
Sorry but this is a statistical impossibility – as during the Succession Wars how often were the Capitol worlds of each state destroyed.
Also the weapons manufacturing plant of Defiance – wouldn’t they have their own library and training facilities to ensure manufacturing is maintained to a high level just as every manufacturing facility has – so how did this information just disappear overnight?
Suggest viewing the film – Things to come, the 1936 British B&W science fiction film. However just like this film if one group retains their knowledge and technology, they will take over all others in their path in short order. It demonstrates how the basic battleTech tenant is quite ludicrous.
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… and it was enemy territory, it isn’t like YOUR people have to suffer for it.
What is the aim of the game? Answer To become First Lord over the entire IS … so what does this mean … you are attempting to rule over the entirety of the Inner Sphere and the peoples therein.
… so what this means is that as you conquer a world their people cease being the enemy and are automatically recognised as citizens of their new House … so by conquering a world through mass destruction this will just lead to a massively expensive repair build and at the same time multiple generations of partisans fighting the status quo.
Great work … you have now conquered a massive problem that will require a massive garrison and police force to maintain the peace over multiple generations as your forces are viewed as wanton destroyers and murderers rather than as liberators.
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How is it the WOB tech should have been used against the clans?
Simple it really was not hard to understand their overall aim… in a post reformation where ComStar and WOB have split into two factions either Marik or Katherine should have nominated for their inclusion into the Star League – they would have then been so overjoyed at this as it was fulfilling prophesy that they would have unveiled their new military …. The Manei Domini, who were established with one aim in mind to Liberate Holy Inner Sphere from the barbarian hordes of the Clans and thus post clan free Inner Sphere be in a position to return the Inner Sphere to Blakean Theocracy where WOB are the protectors of the inner sphere (a new SLDF).
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You want my factory?
One day judiciary agents will just walk in and take it over – all accounts frozen – former CEO will no longer be allowed on the premises. So it is not like the former CEO will even have a chance. Also if the CEO did go down this path I hope they like the next 50 years inside looking out on every charge imaginable.
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Defiance would not have been able to sell enough mechs to the LC
Can I laugh now, as the Lyran military would have been their only customer.
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Rules of War
You do realize in a M.A.D. war all sides would create the world killer warship class – who’s only function is to kill off all enemy worlds – Hence entire areas of the IS should now be vacant of all life as the worlds within these sectors will be either glowing in the dark for the next thousand or so years or should be a vial plague world where no life can exist due to mass introduction of biological agents that kill off all life they come into contact with.
As this is the only logical conclusion for a war with no rules where you ratchet up the response once after another.
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Do you really think the Archon told the Brewers they had to do things a certain way?
You do not have to tell them they should know implicitly what the Archon wants of them. – increased production number of Mechs … for a start … then an adequate R&D team to improve upon the base model would also be considered … then the ability to manufacture new mechs to meet the requirements of military procurement …
Just for starters it is not that difficult to understand.
Also if you really want someone gone it can be done … Dancing Joker … Minoru Kurita … Again it is written in the game.
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Some Mechs are sold across the border
Mercenary units selling to other Mercenary Units – the old and tired as well as those captured to supplement their income – in an age where Mercs exist they will need access to 2nd rate weapon systems otherwise what is the point of even having mercenaries to begin with?
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Awesome
Old Models – as the production year is 2665 – produced prior to Amaris Civil War – so how many SLDF bunkers were raided and an Awesome was found inside and has been with that particular House’s military ever since?
New Models – Nil – not unless you take it from the Battlefield as they remain within the House that built them.
Or due to the treaty signed FC and CC/DC/FWL there could have been a clause that would allow for cross border purchases of military hardware.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/11/22 11:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Situational basis? When does someone hungry for power need a reason? They strike when they feel they have a shot. Tends to be why a lot of them fail.
Until you read the actual printed materials, best to just make notes and keep them quiet. Clan tech was already known to most of the houses before Huntress. The non military tech may not have been, but that is not ALL the tech. I want to say most medical tech was about the same level as the IS, with maybe regeneration being the one out.
Yeah. How long does it take to retool your ammunition factories to produce ammo that comes from the enemy, and stop making the ammo that works in your weapons, while in the middle of a war? It is stupid to think you will recover enough of the enemy's weapons to really need to bother. That means you are not blitzkrieging thru the enemy trying to end the war quickly.
The aim of the game is for players to use stompy mechs to win battles. They will NEVER attain First Lord, so that vision is only seen by you. The first lord position died with Richard, and should remain dead. Starting a new dynasty would be the rulers vision. Not reviving a dead entity that fell under it's own failures.
Yeah. You just nuked your own people. The combatants of the 1st and 2nd succession wars, even the Amaris war, were nothing more then things preventing your victory by being in the way. Even with the increased number of ships, the military was not going to sideline ships in order to make sure each new world was kept to proper levels of food, water and basic necessities. This would cut into their supplies for keeping the army fed and moving. See the simple necessity of war?
Assumptions abound. WOB had no intention of ever getting into a war with the clans until their enemies were defeated, or they were attacked directly. If anything, they would have done like Walterly and allowed the clans to distract the FC and DC while they gained more power to finally take down Comstar and a few others. Then, as the Blake vision stated, ride out like the knights of old and save everyone. The unsaid part being they would take over completely.
Did you not say that increasing profits means selling to any you can? Do you think the LC was the only customer Defiance had? The whole Kincaid scenario was based on the fact that it was only after SL tech came out, that the LC banned all sales to Liao that was high tech. It was not the first and only time Defiance sold to the CC.
And we know Defiance sold lots of units to mercs,
Like it or not, the use of nukes for the opening and continued phases of the wars starting with the Amaris war, was used. At the point the SL fell, all knew the coming fights was a fight for survival. Not gain lands, though that was the story told to their people, but they knew the other leaders would be looking to kill the nation. Simple logic here. As basic as it gets. Once the smoke cleared, then you deal with winning the hearts of the enemy population.
So if the governments wanted more mechs, why didn't they just build the factories themselves? Seize all the ones in operation and expand them with the unlimited funds and resources they could bring about? It would remove things like supply problems and such as the government could just invoke war status on things. There is nothing shown that they even considered state funded factories to do this.
What? Cross border sales of unit? You said that didn't happen. And new units were sold across the borders between the SL time and the FC merger. New Awesomes were used in all realms, including the CC. They were not numerous, but they were there. This is true of most mechs. A very few were nation restricted. The Zeus being a major one. The Vindicator being another. The Valkyrie yet another. But that did not stop the sales of other units.
One major example of cross border sales is the Monolith Jumpship. The DC owned about half of them, and to suggest the FS just allowed them to steal those ships by boarding actions is far fetched.
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Karagin
05/11/22 03:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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So basically Meatloaf is what's wrong with the Inner Sphere, got it.
Anyway, one reason the Houses don't take over the factories is that it means production would slow down since the factories are now part of the bureaucracy. The ammo thing, they would make some things, or they would rechamber the weapons if they can to their own calibers used by their side. Won't be the first time, I can give an excellent example of a 76.2mm AT GUN, both the Germans and Russians used the SAME gun, the Germans after they captured hundreds of them, and the ammo, found that they liked it and started making their own ammo. So they were basically using their enemy's weapon as their own.
Maybe if folks would read Objective Raids (yes and now I have the "newer" takes on that amazing book) they would see that many mega-corporations have spread ALL over the Inner Sphere. IF I am selling one of my homemade mechs aka Renegade (65-ton take off the Exterminator) for example, and my company wanted to expand the sales market, then I would be offering to every House, Merc, Perphiery and private security, etc...and I would then sell an upgrade to whichever House that the main HQ is in.
Nukes should never have been allowed to be used by us the players, they should have remained in the hands of the PTB. That way when and if they are used it's for dramatic effect or the need is there for something major to change the complete course of things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/11/22 06:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah, you can make the ammo. But when you are putting out the ammo your units use, you are not going to just stop to make ammo an enemy weapon uses. But this is a side point.
The 1st war had a lot of units invading each other, and they would not leave manufacturers running that made ammo for the enemy, if they didn't use it themselves.
The idea that nukes should never be in the hands of players, and only in the hands of the governments is a no brainer. Where this takes an odd turn is when someone thinks nukes should never be allowed in the game. Railing against the clans challenges, then thinks all fights need to be sterile like them, shows a problem. Orbital bombardment is almost as bad, though it doesn't normally leave glow in the dark syndrome.
And I thought the problem was Avocado Toast. Then again, defining if Meatloaf is the food or the singer...
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Karagin
05/11/22 07:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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My point with the ammo is it is done, and you are right, if your aim is to break the enemy of their ability to wage war again, then it's total war, sow the ground with salt, reaping a whirlwind of destruction as you move across their planets. IF you will win in the end, well you can always rebuild the planets, or not. Recall many worlds were abandoned because of similar events by the warring Houses. The amount of damage done by the fighting and all that. Or you could capture the factories and have your follow-up troops start to reconfigure them to build your stuff, shorting your supply line issues. That plan takes time and your run the risk of issues if the tides of war turn against you and push you back.
Certain things that change the course of a game's setting are things left up to TPTB. Now having said that, a one-off adventure for the player characters to take a stronghold or invade a world to stop the use of a nuke or to capture something major needed to produce whatever the doomsday weapon is, is different, because each of us could run the same scenario adventure and get different outcomes. So it's more a moot point.
Orbital bombardment, that is artillery for the most part. However, if it's used every turn then why even worry about playing? Slag the planet, move to the next, do it again, and keep moving. Boring. Having it there as something that a commander can use, is fine, limiting it to hitting in 10 turns or something like that makes more sense, and then only for one map board. Oh you rolled and well sorry your bombardment hit the 3 miles to the east of your intended target, sorry about that. Crappy dice rolls and all. It shouldn't get same turn plotted and lands the same turn or even the next. There will be a delay.
Meatloaf can be what ever you want. It's still the issue.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/11/22 10:39 PM
101.185.82.214
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Situational basis?
Cursory analysis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
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Medical Technology
Consider pg 58 of House Steiner
The Martin Luther Memorial Hospital – “knowledge of how to use much of the elaborate medical machinery has long been lost”.
Wouldn’t it be reasonable therefore for someone to expect that with all available information on hand that a Clans medical team could have been seconded to undertake training at key medical facilities to fill in what has been lost?
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ammunition facilities
So once an enemy ammunition manufacturing plant is captured , it is decided to just not bother with retooling it – as it is more efficient to assume that the Ammunition Logistics Chain, all the way from the Clan Home Worlds, is more efficient when it comes to suppling adequate resources, despite the fact that the Jump time is 6 months there and 6 months back. Is this correct?
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You just nuked your own people
No, the enemy did … as the war has no rules, M.A.D. is no n effect, my forces were obliterating all known enemy worlds that are habitable, thus reducing their ability to keep proper food, water and basic necessities, that would cut into their supplies for keeping their army fed and moving … thus a simple necessity of war.
Problem is whist I am doing this to my enemy they are doing it to me, but who cares as there are no rules to war and sowing the ground with salt is a viable tactic to killing off the enemy once and for all!
SATIRE
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WOB had no intention of ever getting into a war with the clans
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini
“These forces were initially raised, trained, and equipped for a genocidal showdown with the Clans …”
Also consider https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tharkad
“when the Second Star League dissolved in 3067 on Tharkad, the Word immediately went on the offensive. They saw the Federated Suns and the Lyran Alliance as the culprits … The Blakists attempted to cow Lyran Archon Peter Steiner-Davion into returning to the League with a show of force…”
Thus the aim, therefore, was the reformation of the Second Star League ….
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Foreign Arms Sales
Why would any Government assist their enemy (for the past hundreds of years) with an arms package?
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the use of nukes
Its simple logic to obliterate everything with nukes and then expect people to forgive and forget and become your allies once the dust clears?
Justice, therefore, means nothing …
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There is nothing shown that they even considered state funded factories to do this.
Except for the fact that the Steiner Family holds a significant percentage of Defence Industry Stock – as it is the Steiner Family who appoint the CEO.
So rather than build factories themselves the Steiner family decide to go into partnership.
Or Norse-Storm Technologies Inc. – “With substantial loans from the Lyran government and aid of business partner Samuel Norse, the factory was eventually brought back online …”
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what? Cross border sales of unit? You said that didn’t happen.
What was written was that with the formation of CC/DC/FWL alliance, in a show of good faith, between members they allowed the sale to bolster their overall position to survive a combined attack by FS/LC, just as occurs now between security partners.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/11/22 11:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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Is there a price chart for common items? Like video machines (aka TVs), computers, phones, guns, food, etc...?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 02:23 AM
45.51.181.83
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Do you understand the concept of blitzkrieg? You hit everything you can and continue on with the push. Capture factories? Normally they are blow apart by explosives, such as artillery and canon shells. Even air drops will work. We are talking the 1st and 2nd succession wars. Not the clans trials of possession.
From most of what is published, the clans medical tech isn't much higher then the IS tech. Regeneration being the main exception.
Your statement: … so what this means is that as you conquer a world their people cease being the enemy and are automatically recognised as citizens of their new House.
My response was Yeah. You just nuked your own people.
Then you said No, the enemy did.
Seems to be going back to not reading the responses again. The last statement doesn't make sense given the context of the discussion there.
Given the fact that WOB had the forces to go after the clans no matter if the rest of the IS didn't shows the lie to the statement. They could well have started removing the IS clans, then moving to the home worlds. Then they attacked two houses because they left the SL. And wasn't the only reason for the wars was to be the only first lord of the SL? WOB leaders would have done the very thing you keep telling all were doing. Waging war to become the first lord. And what happened? OH yeah, WOB went the nuclear route as well as Amaris. Funny that it wasn't against the clans, but the IS, including the DC and CC. So yeah. They were made to fight the clans.
Was the governments of the IS in control of the manufacturers in their realms? No. Private citizens were. And they were out to make money. Selling weapons to a hostile nation means the nation they are in will have to buy more weapons, meaning you make even more money. And before the FC came about, supplying the enemy of my enemy, helped remove my enemy. Even if they did nothing but sit in place, the enemy had to keep forces split so each border was protected.
Nukes are used not to make allies, but to kill any that oppose you. So no allies, just dead enemies. It is a simple concept.
By the way, the 1st and 2nd succession wars were not about taking territory, but about making the enemy leaders dead. And scaring anyone else so they don't try to resist you. Pretty much, I will rule the world, even if it means I am the only one left in it.
Not a good way to think, but it is not as rare as it should be.
You mean the hereditary leader of the LC has stock in the largest manufacturer in the IS? And yet that would mean the Steiners would side with making money at the expense of the population of the realms, as they shifted the blame on others? And this coming from a realm of money buys power and prestige, like the social generals? So the LC government was more corrupt then the others. Good to know.
The merger time being the only time most cross borders sales were severely restricted, except times of active fighting, the rest of the time had companies selling stuff to other nations. Part of why having a border that touches Terra was necessary. It was the only real area that you could ship things thru and not get hit constantly. The two realms across the IS from the seller were sold to. Example would be the LC sold to the FS and CC. It would keep pressure on the DC and FWL.
And after the 4th war, sales to the FWL and CC resumed, though not so much for the CC. The next war was against the DC mainly. So sales still existed during that. The clans changed this.
And government loans is not the same thing as owning the company. If it was, then most companies would not exist anymore.
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Requiem
05/12/22 05:13 AM
101.185.82.214
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Blitzkrieg – you hit everything
I wonder how many actually understand Blitzkrieg (Clan assault within the Inner Sphere) – it is winning by not fighting …
Suggest watching the following to understand …
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-german-lightning-war-strategy-of-the-second-world-war
in which IWM’s John Delaney explains the three key ingredients for any successful Blitzkrieg:
- speed of movement – keep moving, always look for the weak spot
- speed of decision making, and – apply maximum pressure at a single point as quickly as possible
- an overconfident enemy – cut communication to promote uncertainty
and I wonder how many understand how to defeat Blitzkrieg – through production and shear weight of numbers.
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medical tech
And yet they should understand how to operate Star League Era Medical Technology – that can then be returned to surgeries etc. throughout the inner sphere to assist with medical care, thus providing life saving care.
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the last statement
Winning a war does not have to achieved through the use of mass wanton destruction of civilian property.
A soldier does not revel in the death and destruction of civilians and their property.
A soldier considers military targets only and the minimisation of loss of life
Thus, at the end there is a minimalistic approach to war to ensure when the planet transfers its allegiance it is dome with all due care to ensure its people are well respected and the right of law is maintained.
You must consider the juxtaposition of time before and after – and then also consider the semantics of what is being discussed.
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WOB forces … lie to the statement
WOB forces were to be the Second Star League’s SLDF spear point … I thought that was obvious.
And yet what was written was the worst diatribe against the BattleTech universe … it is no wonder it is so loathed.
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they could have started removing the IS Clans
Then what was their assault upon Wolf’s Dragoons all about?
They saw the Dragoons as fifth column that had to be removed …
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WOB … waging war to become First Lord
Hardly, they wanted to be First Templar Master of the Star League. They wanted the Star League to return so that a crusade could be waged in the name of Holy Blake to rid the IS of all Clan impurities.
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control of manufacturers
How much influence does an ordinary shareholder have in a corporation – Nil – power is derived by maintaining a majority of the vote or enough voted to hold a position on the board to sway the members of other board members.
So unless a majority of the shareholders can come together and there is room due to he number of shares the institutional shareholders have the ordinary shareholders view will never have the power to reform the corporation.
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prolific use of nukes
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king!
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… the 1st and 2nd succession wars were not about taking territory, but about making the enemy leaders dead.
So how did that strategy work out? Within the first five minutes it should have been realized that this current strategy was a dud, as only the king of all fools would have considered such an implausible strategy where a ruler with a mobile HPG could be anywhere within their realm (including hidden worlds) and still maintain contact with their military and civilian chain of command.
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I will rule the (Inner Sphere) even if it means I am the only one left in it.
So M.A.D. war of attrition using planet killers to ensure the genocide of the species … the Nero Doctrine …
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Steiner would side with making money …
This is where the TPTB who wrote the initial books created an interesting situation … in a normal universe any sales to non Lyran military customers would have required a sales permit provided by the Steiner Government to ensure they are not sold to the wrong purchases …. As how would it look if the USA began selling its most advanced fighters to those countries that it considers they will be hostile in the future.
Allowing free trade with no restrictions (including military hardware) in an era of almost constant war it is a wonder how their inept governments were able to survive given the ineptitude of current non-policies.
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Government Loans
Used as an economic tool to increase production, decrease unemployment and hopefully decrease Inflation (used to support economic recovery) – also remember to consider the collateral for a loan in the event the Business is unable to repay – it is not like the USA Lemon laws or the Toxic Debt of a House.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/12/22 10:38 AM
70.118.172.64
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IF I conquer a planet, the citizens of that world are still a threat until they learn how to live within the culture and government I bring with me. Now, it also means I have to protect them, but it doesn't mean there is trust; it will be several generations till there is full trust. Most worlds on the borders of a star nation will have traded hands several times. The population will be hostile regardless because of the last round of fighting and all the raiding etc...it will take time to make them loyal citizens.
WoB storyline was if you believe the silliness, to fight the Clans and wipe them out. That was their sole purpose, or so TPTB have tried to claim at one point, then they said it was one of their goals and then the way to justify their turning on the Inner Sphere as a whole. That turning is coming with the new Star League being disbanded. Lots of issues with WoB and their miraculous rise to military prowess. Honestly, I think that whole storyline did more damage to the IP than anything else.
Not sure why having a family stake in a company would automatically mean anything. I see, though, that reading the background information and understanding it are two different things for many.
The Clans only changed how sales went. They didn't stop companies from playing games or House vs. House politics from having sanctions. While some would sell to all during the early years of the Clan invasion, others would see the Fed-Com and Combine as needing more mechs, etc...and willing to pay more. In contrast, the CapCon and FWL weren't under attack and thus wouldn't buy as much under the new prices. That doesn't mean they didn't buy mechs, etc...it means they weren't buying whole runs of a unit, regardless of what it was. For example, say that the CapCon needs new Whitworths. They have two choices to get them. One is to buy them from the Lyrans, or the second is from the Combine. Both need to replenish their ranks, but this is a Whitworth. It may not be a high priority mech for those two nations, so they may both sell to the CapCon, but the prices will be higher than before. Or they may go with the idea, let's unload all the older junk (now, where has this happened before, I wonder) and sell them to the CapCon at cost or just below. Sales happen, but then the CapCon attacks the St. Ives Compact, and that causes the Combine to not ship the mechs because old Theodore says not to. Yet the Lyrans still end theirs. So the CapCon is pissed, and the Combine has mechs that aren't doing them much, so they can re-sell them to merc units or others who need them. Or in six months, when things change again politically, send them on to the CapCon. But again, it's not a high priority given that new tech versions are going to the front-line units, not being sold to others.
The other wrinkle in this is that the FWL makes kits of higher-tech refits for mechs; now that's cool. However, it would be kits for mechs they have access to and can make INSIDE their own borders. Recall not every house has a plant that makes every mech. So upgrade kits for Jenners won't be coming from the FWL. And before anyone says they were selling weapons packages based on weight classes, that was NEVER stated in any sourcebook or novel. So let's be honest and look at the actual landscape of how the manufacturing system of the Inner Sphere is set up. The FWL would not have a kit for every mech, thus it would not be able to offer upgrades for the Whitworth or Jenner or Valkyre or others.
The FWL, unlike the CapCon, did make many mechs that the Fed-Com and Combine use a lot of and would need tons of spare parts and new machines to replace losses. That means they could raise prices and use that war to get a lot of profits, but that would also mean they would not be selling as much to the FWL military as they would normally. No company is going to turn down the chance to make money. Oh, yeah sorry but the Fed-Com market is paying 8% higher per unit than you (the FWL military) and we already sent you the agreed number of units. What's that you want more, well at a 10% higher price point per unit, we could send the next two runs to you, oh you will take them, excellent.
There will always be backroom deals going on, the idea that this has been ignored or lost, shows in how one-dimensional the writing is at times.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 12:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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Forget the clan assault was no where near typical? Comstar feeding them intel on the houses, so they were not bogged down searching for units. Also, the clans did not bother hunting down all units anyways. The took the worlds surrender as the end of the fighting, which was custom in the clans. They were not ready for the gorilla warfare the happened afterwards.
The blitz is to take out the enemy's resources quickly. Capturing them slowed them down. Time is the key.
The 1st and 2nd wars were wars of destruction. Win at all costs. Not sure why this is being argued. Wars do not have to wipe out every last thing. The 3rd war showed this with the 4th war helping support it. The clan invasion was a real kicker to not destroying every last asset. As the conversation was about the destructiveness of the first two wars, along with the need to destroy the enemy's resolve against you, I don't know why it is suggested it didn't happen that way. Survival was the name of the first two wars, as each house was trying to wipe out the governments of the others.
WOB took Terra while Comstar was engaged in the clan invasion. This was for power. They did not engage the clans at any time during the war.
Taking out the Dragoons was done since they opposed WOB for the most part, and they were poised to be a problem if they attacked. It was purging the IS of a valued unit, and removing a thorn. The excuse of them being ex clan was a cover. WOB took out some other mercs along with the Dragoons, that had no clan connections.
Also, WOB formed before the clans showed up so no. They wanted to become the rulers of the IS. The lie they told was the protector garbage. And the question of what would they do when the clans were destroyed. As a side point, they kept control of Terra.
It is assumed that the Stieners were not involved with running Defiance, least they start getting called out and sued for using tax payers money to fund their own coffers. Not like they had much of a choice, as Defiance was the largest producer in the IS, but it would have caused more issues. The Skye Rebellions might have succeeded if this was pushed enough. More people supporting the movement concept.
Ah yes. The problem with Rectonning things in the story. Mobile HPGs. When the story was done, Mobile HPGs were not in the game. Which could be used to support the full destruction of worlds. A single one could rely intel to the enemy, so removing that possibility would well have been argued to continue the nukes.
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Karagin
05/12/22 01:22 PM
70.118.172.64
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Tons of issues with retcons when they are done poorly or mentioned as a passing thing to fix issues, but then not handled right and cause their own issues. It's a problem all IPs have.
The WoB storyline was poorly handled, nothing said by the PTB will ever change that. The amount of damage it did to the fan base hurt the IP, and the amount of personal bias and actions of many who were/are friends with former and current PTB has hurt the IP. Even to this day, the majority of people who once played or knew about the game still believe it's a dead system or living on life support. And no Cray nothing is going to change that premise given the hate that was thrown out by folks Camile, Chunga, and others at fans who disagreed with the storyline and spoke out about it. Those two were buddies with many of TPTB at the time and thus the damage was done. No spin will fix it, and when you add in the forced shoehorning of the Dark Age stuff, well you get a mix of a mess.
Then the retcons we get are an entire TRO that somehow suggests things are sooooooo bad that the Houses are raiding museums for mechs and vehicles to fight with. That makes no sense, given that a display will be de-mil (meaning it has NO functioning parts that would allow it to be used in a fight) and even if say the Bovington Museum on Terra has a working Gladiator or other older mech, doesn't mean it can be taken and made to work, that kind of refit will take years and it could break the machine. Yet we are told differently, we are told that companies were pushing aside proven designs to bring back these retro machines in massive numbers. Not how things work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/12/22 01:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am not debating that the 1st and 2nd wars were not total war, they were. My point is they set the stage so to speak for how the Inner Sphere reacts. And the 3rd War was more of shifting borders so as to prevent a repeat of those two wars. The 4th one acted on one thing, one House was falling apart, it had lost too much too quickly over time and was in no shape to handle a real attack. The second part of the 4th War was to give the new superstate breathing room. Both aims were met and thus things went forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/12/22 01:36 PM
70.118.172.64
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Another issue the Inner Sphere has to deal with is stagnation. None of the Houses are adding worlds to their control, beyond the few that change hands during the fighting, but that is a small number. We have ALL of the Houses having population issues, yet we don't see any of these concerns dealt with in the fiction.
It would make a lot of sense for the FedSuns to do more exploring on their Periphery border near the Tortorga region, and it gains them three things, pirates and raiders removed, that alone is a win. The second thing, it gains them more resources, you know that old idea of the need to spend to make money to that what you spent is recovered and you gain more over time. (wish CGL would figure that out) And the third reason it removes a lot of population issues. Colonies can feed the growth of the whole. And while it may come to a point they go independent, that is still not as bad as having a major rebellion in your main holding because you couldn't handle the unemployment issues, etc...
The point is that the game HAS a lot of opportunities to expand and still have the mechs fighting mechs. Explorers run across a forgotten Periphery nation, oh they have mechs, they don't care that our mission is to trade and find allies, etc...boom fighting happens, lots of things for folks to get into. And who knows maybe they run across a Snow Raven or Star Adder base that is building a massive fleet and they are forced to flee back to the Inner Sphere...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 02:27 PM
45.51.181.83
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Not sure of you have Requiem blocked, but from the sounds of the latest responses, I will guess you do. The wars savagery is directed towards that.
There will always be fighting somewhere in the IS.
Even if it is nothing more then local politicians trying to win an 'election', by striking at their opponent, or taking out someone that has grown to big for their britches.
Scenarios like the unit being caught up in a raid that was meant for someone else, like a unit that was just shipped out. Pirates in general. Hired to hunt down a renegade unit. Being made the renegade unit. Guarding or raiding a cargo ship. Some raiding of your sponsor state can be legal. Just make sure the contract is stated correctly.
The dark ages was just a way to send the numbers of forces back to the low end of the spectrum with some sort of reason for it. As the IS was supposed to be advancing in all areas, only another major destructive war would do so, and that is not something the game would survive, or at least what I can see. The ordeal with the FS in the latest version shows just how much they were relying on a boogie man to keep the nations in war.
If not for the civil war saga, the DC would have been in as bad of shape as the CC, even before the 4th war. The influx of clan units and tech would have helped hold it off some, but eventually they would have been squeezed by the LC and FS.
The Civil war was expected, as the economic power and military might would have driven so many raids, it would have been more like a constant war, once the clans were dealt with.
One constant thing that bugged me was how the clans took all new tech and improved it without much time. If this was true, then their own tech should have been much higher then what it was. Or did they have prototypes of that tech ready to go, when the IS came up with it?
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Karagin
05/12/22 03:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The idea of the Combine being crushed still allowed for more stories and fighting. The Clans made it clear they weren't leaving so they would be another player in the game so to speak.
The Combine had ways of holding out, they were not in as bad of shape as the CapCon, they didn't have nutcase running things and Theodore was a lot smarter than the Laios. He knew he could not last forever, but he could build up things that could. Also, he knew Victor would not allow the Suns to attack the Combine, not while he could avoid it. The Lyrans had no real way to hit at the Combine anymore. Three Clans in the way, their own rebuilding post-civil war. Lots of ways to keep things small and NOT go the route of the WoB silliness.
Or do go that route, pissed off WoB, throws their temper tantrum but finds out even while hurt, the Inner Sphere can shift gears pretty quick. No need for the silliness of another arms race right on top of the last one, the same one that even the players hadn't fully gotten used to. Or run the same overall story but have the WoB doing it far more slowly and then have the big clash between the Clans and WoB on Terra, not the silliness of mechs to plows shears and all that.
My group sat down and tried to figure out prior to the whole FC Civil War, how a Fifth War could play out with the Clans there. We came up with this. The dangers of the Fed-Com having both a battle-tested military with Clan tech is an issue the Mairk and Sun Tzu can't ignore. So they go the route of merging their two realms, but old Sunny boy and some FWL traitors, and good old WoB all have another plan in play. One that gets Isis Marik killed the day of the wedding. And even though the "I dos" had not happened yet, she is shot in a manner that prevents that from happening and the wedding is attacked as well, an enraged Sonny Boy blames Victor and uses this to have Marik attack the Fed-Com with him. WoB uses their control of the Marik HPG net to send out highly doctored footage of the events, and "captured" Fed-Com commandos and others all are seen confessing to the plot, etc...this causes issues with the Fed-Com. Kat, while in on the plot, uses this to push that her brother is a danger and should be stripped of his rule. Uprisings happen in many former LC worlds. Some on FS worlds are in what becomes the Chaos March area, and Sunny and Marik hit everywhere they can at once with the help of WoB and some of their special units.
Meanwhile, the Falcons use this as a chance to grab more worlds since the Fed-Com now has to deal with the other attacks and we see Katherine doing her I am better than Victor moment pulling the LC out of the alliance and now old Victor has that to deal with, he gets some aid from the Combine but that causes MORE issues. ComStar jumps in to help, and while that looks good it comes with its own issues. The Wolves are trying to figure out how to deal with the Falcons and their actions as well as watching the Bears and ComStar. Their hands are tied since they can't move past the Treaty border. The Bears have their own issues, from former RL units and population to deal with to ComStar and the Combine and the other Clans on their borders, so they aren't going to jump in but might if they see a way to gain things. The Combine has to deal with the Clans on their borders, and internal issues and if Theodore offers help to Victor, while it might play well with some, it's going to cause more issues for him.
We then had this be a big boon for merc units and the Dragoons would be doing all they can to keep control of things around their holdings and figure out who's side to fight on. They might remain natural and play broker for the other mercs since they see the Clans as a bigger issue. They could also use this to get more intel on the WoB and their long-term plans.
We had this fighting run for roughly 10 years max, with it having lulls and highs. A quick and dirty test play had Laio take the burnt of the counterattacks by Victor and then as more info comes out Marik tries to pull out of the war, the WoB let leak his an imposter, and they parade another imposter of Thomas, showing him alive but crippled, not pointing out that the real Marik is the nutjob trying to get revenge on all who hurt him. He is using the WoB and their insanity to his advantage. This causes the more or less collapse of the FWL and allows Victor to crush Sonny Boy and then have to deal with his sister, the Clans, and all the other issues he hadn't gotten to. Thus even more fighting and universe-sweeping changes are in the making.
All of which to use make a ton of sense, followed the set patterns in the universe, and kept things on a level that players could run with. It also brought to light a lot of issues within the game's backstories and how plot points had been dropped or left dangling and never dealt with, etc...
Then we saw the whole FC Civil War turn into the WoB storyline and we were like uhmm WTH and a few other comments. One thing is clear the Inner Sphere is vast enough to support dozens of plot lines running, but for some reason, that isn't being done.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/12/22 03:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans had 300 years to do things, they advanced what wanted to advance. Things are we really only know a fraction of what they advanced. We know they have better medical systems, military tech, and engineering abilities. We don't a damn thing if they advanced their computers or FTL drives. Or how much better they made their HPGs, like more portable and cheaper to make. That is one area they should have been focused on since they had techs and others who knew how they worked and could make new ones given time. The time they had. Their tech is higher than the Inner Sphere, they don't waste things, and they don't have the same poverty issues that the IS would have.
The other issue is that everything centers around the Inner Sphere, this lends to a bad picture of Clan tech advancing. The Tactical Handbook and MaxTech both are bad about this.
Inner Sphere comes up with the Bloodhound AP and the Angel ECM, That makes sense since those are two areas they are behind in as far as weight and range. Clans are behind in really using probes and ECM to fully gain an advantage. Yet we get Clan versions of both, no reasons, no real idea why, but hey here they are. That continues across the two books.
The Inner Sphere offers new ammunitions for the LRMs/SRMs and Autocannons, ammunitions that offer new advantages but also drawbacks. There is NO counter by the Clans, okay that does happen, they haven't run into these yet. But at that point, we don't see anything really for the Clans as new.
We don't until the WoB silliness in full WWE mode, and we get HAGs, Watchdog systems and their version of the RACs, and some other things. Yet, none of this is purely a Clan thing. For the Clans a single system that can do ECM, EECM, and probing aka the NOVA Watchdog thing makes sense, but for them to push out their versions of the Angel and Bloodhound, no it doesn't make any sense.
Also, Battletech has had this other issue since the late 90s, TPTB has tried to advance things to match new real-world military toys, ignoring some but embracing others. So we got a bad take on Stealth technology, really bad. Then wing over ground effects failures that the Soviets tried to get a new life because someone thought they were cool. Each addition brought new problems. We now have two ways to make vehicles, one for combat and one for the so-called non-combat side. But if you want to use something you can't because you have to make this weird hybrid thing. We have two types of armor systems. With the whole BAR silliness. Standard Armor was just that standard, it didn't need to be broken down into anything else. We even knew it took a lot of combined firing from infantry weapons to hurt units with even standard armor. So the whole BAR system stinks of copying Palladium and their two-tiered damage system with SDC and MDC setup.
The counter to all of this is this "see they listened to you and the others, why aren't you happy" and it's a great line. Really good. The thing is yes they did listen to the idea, but they put a spin on things that made the idea non-ideal. And again a lot of this comes down to who was in charge of what at the time and events going on with legal and blow the game took when FASA collapsed. I can see many of the same attitudes with some of the new PTB with their stance on several issues or their idea that their work is wonderful, all the same issues we have seen before.
The game offers a ton of things to go running off with and some even could be used to explain a lot of the whys and whatnots, issue is can it be done in a way to add to the fun or not? We both have seen that when we have to correct what should be a simple reading of the source books and seeing that retcons happened, or how a point was forgotten that now needs to be fixed and we can see the rich colorful backstory that is there but not used.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/12/22 08:30 PM
101.185.82.214
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Not sure why having a family stake in a company would automatically mean anything.
Economic stability – provides leavers the Government can use to implement fiscal stability upon key worlds.
Managing the Nobility (Peerage) – economic control over key worlds provides a degree of control over key nobility.
Managing the Military Infrastructure – control over key military procurement boards assists with the internal stability of the realm.
And lastly as this is a Neo-Feudalism setting the ruler will require to be wealthier than that of their Nobility in order to retain their position. They can use their personal wealth off-book to assist or harm key nobility / citizens to ensure political control over the realm. Also establishing Manors / Estates with all the mod cons on key worlds is expensive …
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Economics / Military Industrial Complex - Exports within the Game and R&D within the Game
Unfortunately, when it comes to economics within the game it is very cut and dry and never takes into consideration how the governments can use their policies / strategies to assist economic advancement – that in turn assists with increased production numbers / R&D / Education / Medical Development etc throughout the entire economy. This in turn has a vast impact upon the size of the military and the consumables they have access to …
As for Military Industrial Complexes ability to export within the game. This have been totally mismanaged (in my opinion). First each corporation will require an export license … which in turn will require government oversight as it should be illegal to sell to anyone, who is not attached to their House’s military, advanced technological equipment.
Thus if you are a long term Mercenary unit then there is a possibility you can purchase Mechs from your employer House.
Selling cross-border, however, should only be Used Second / Third grade equipment only and never advanced technology … and again will require export license … and again should be for a limited number of cases eg. your House is supporting a pro your House guerrilla warfare / coup within enemy territory as seen throughout the 20th / 21st Century.
Consider the Cold War – US forces only obtained access to the most advanced Russian Fighter when the pilot defected landing the craft in Japan – and then they were forced to return it, though in pieces following the quickest assessment possible.
Or can you see a swap China’s most advanced fighter for America’s stealth fighter / bomber? As this is what is being considered here.
As can you see the military industrial complex selling new combat tanks on a lot the same as new civilian vehicles? As this is what is being suggested … so come on down to crazy Dave’s new Mech Lot and we will set you up with the new Mech, no deposit … and we provide access to loans at low interest …… Really?
Thus this idea that one House would sell Mechs to another House is an impossibility – each House should be reliant upon their own Military Industrial Complex for the manufacture of their weapons.
The only time this will laxed is due to a strategic alliance – eg. The NATO alliance – if you a member you are allowed access to other members military industrial complexes. In this case the “Weapons Kits” provided by the FWL during the Clan Invasion.
As for military R&D – Yes corporations and the military can undertake independent R&D that will hopefully be used to either drive sales whist protecting the realm.
However, each House’s “Pentagon” would have a military procurement division to which they would set the criteria by which new vehicles would be required …
Thus if a new Mech is required for the House military it would state … omni-mech … and then the specific purpose for the mech. The prototype Mechs would then undergo independent tests to determine the superior model … prior to being selected for mass production for the House’s military.
Thus the Black hole of military procurement / R&D really needs to be looked at and rectified.
As for backroom deals – good-luck with that – the last time that was considered was the Iran Contra … also sedition / treason laws will now need to be considered.
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The Clans did not bother hunting down all units …
If they were on the run then the Clan commander had no choice but to continue the running battle until victory was secured.
The only time they didn’t bother is when they believed all resistance had been removed … ie. they went into hiding for an extended period of time … ie. The Clans were never thorough when it came to analysing post combat analysis, a point that was never really exploited within the game when it came to removing front line forces / leaving behind small garrison unit … so yes I agree the Clan’s never understood House guerrilla warfare tactics.
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WOB, Terra and the Clan Invasion
The planetary invasion of Terra concerns the Legitimacy of the WOB from a quasi-religious-fringe group to that of a major player within the IS.
The reason they never fought the Clans was twofold …
1. Their enemy, ComStar, would finally undertake war against the Clans … thus devastating the ComGuard – as they get weaker WOB gains in strength attitude …
2. and more importantly … the FWL, who provided them sanctuary, was not engaged in war against the Clans.
Thus, politically, they would only go to war if the FWL also declared War on the Clans and units were moved into the combat zone.
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Steiner family and Defiance
Have a look at the shareholder rolls of the current military industrial complexes and the rise of private contractors within the military. The Steiner family therefore must retain control of the military even if they too must become private contractors at the same time.
It is all about control of the military – who’s hand is on the whip?
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when the story was done, mobile HPGs were not in the game
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator#Mobile_HPG
“ … the 50-ton model, introduced in 2655, is installed upon large spacecraft …”
… and the Amaris Civil War commenced 2766 ….
Thus command HQ for House Forces upon a ‘large spacecraft’ is achievable whilst nukes are being used upon planetary bodies.
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opportunities lost
Second Star League exploring the periphery – rather than kicking out just the Jags. All non SL clans should have retreated back into the periphery. The New SLDF would then have to be sent in to explore the periphery to find them and again remove them ….
This could have been incredible (rather than going down the Jihad) …and could have started the second clan war etc.
WOB tech proliferates all House militaries, this could have been a far more adventurous game than that of the Jihad!
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If not for the civil war saga the DC would have been in as bad of shape as the CC
As a kurita joined the Cats this should have established a reproachment between the DC and the Cats – which should have assisted the DC to rapidly advance their tech to Clan levels over a shorter period of time.
Their military should have been a match for all others – just the same as the Bears assist Rasalhague, and in so doing making them a powerhouse within the IS.
Making it impossible for the FC to engage them in full combat ‘at this point in time’.
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5th Succession War / Isis shot
1st what happens to the 2nd Star League and their SLDF when it comes to containing the Clan threat – as this will shatter the new Star League – also due to the Clan Threat will the DC assist the FC in forming an alliance to keep the Clan threat under control – the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of alliance? Also has the FC separated back into two Houses due to Victor being stupid?
2nd where is the Wedding – also on Terra as per FS and LC? This will have problem with the idea of an assassin.
3rd what is the response of the Clans to a 5th Succession War – sit back and do nothing – or do they continue their invasion thus opening multiple fronts at the same time.
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Clan Technology – employment – Military R&D
Yes, I agree a more detailed understanding of Clan Technology is required (vastly increase in the number of books required) especially when you first need to consider what was transported from the IS to their new Home Land via exodus fleet – as written it appears as though the majority of their weapons were being transported rather than civilian vehicles and factories to assist with the recolonization of vast number of people upon new colony worlds. As this will direct their development for the first 100years of their new colony.
Employment – This is a Totalitarian Communist Government, therefore by definition there is no unemployment as everyone within the state is automatically assigned their employment position upon completion of their education.
Everyone outside the sate is an enemy of the state and as such a target to be eliminated.
Also a detailed explanation as how Clan military R&D is conducted would be appreciated as when waging trials within the clan home worlds R&D would be understandable, however, once contact is made with the IS how is this undertaken – do clan engineers visit the IS or does IS salvage be sent home for analysis – thus creating a juxtaposition when it comes to any response to new IS weapons.
Problem is – Money – TPTB need a new white Knight to take over the business bring in a vast number of new people and reinvigorate life into the game … and hopefully people who understand military and socioeconomics etc would be helpful – I would also suggest a complete rewrite of a majority of the history would be a good first step as the majority of the history as is is painfully full of holes (in my opinion) that do not flow as they should to produce a well balanced and comprehensive history that actually makes sense.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 08:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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How is it that WOB, after a few decades have increased the range of jumps, yet the tech leading clans could not do that in a hundred or so years? Even the HPG range was never breeched. Both have major military applications, which would be something they would have wanted. Batchalls would still be done, but having an enemy clan force show up when they were outside normal range and no warning given, so you wouldn't have some force ready to counter it comes up. Going thru a pair of jumps, even with the Lithium drives, would still give you an idea of where they might be. But having a longer range before hitting the IS would shorten they number of jumps needed.
The work to the ECM suites would have been done before the clans were formed, as the batchall, and hiding for that fact, was against their concepts. So I do agree this line of development is wrong.
For the smaller merc units, a full war is not ideal or even necessary to keep employed. Heavy raiding has left all sides depleted, yet the nations don't want to let the others catch their breath, so hiring mercs would be the way to go. Depending on how good they do taking out the enemy might actually lead to worlds changing hands.
The story of your group has a lot of things that would work well. Have you tried avoiding the FC entirely? Like having Mellisa killed during the Silver Eagle incident? Might be Comstar that does it, and frames the DC, which was already assaulting the ship. Without this, the CC might still be hit, but not as badly, and Walterly could not use it as an excuse to be able to seize power. This would change the entire clan invasion. If Melissa was killed, there would be no Victor or Katherine to lead to the Civil war. The Comstar/WOB break may not have happened.
This could lead to all the houses banning together to take on the clans without being hobbled by Comstar giving away their positions.
It would also mean that the 3039 war would have been far different, or not happened. The FRR may not have been formed, leaving the DC to deal with more of the clans then what they did.
Honestly, the 4th war might have started from Melissa being killed. The merger may still have happened, but no marriage.
Just curious on this. The group I play with hasn't done the what if beyond the clan invasion.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 09:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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Did you miss the Kincaid storyline? Defiance had sold things to the other houses in the past, and only had a problem when the Helm Core items were being sold. Not a single house besides the CC wanted the CC to be able to buy any of it, including the mercs hired by the CC.
Going by using only what the realm produces, means the CC would have died long before it did, with the DC being on a very defensive stance. And this doesn't even cover the periphery getting involved. The MoC only makes a few mechs, and the Shadowhawk being the heaviest of them. The OA even less.
With the OA, we know both FS and DC were selling them mechs. The same thing goes with the DC and LC selling to the FRR. We also know houses were supplying rebels in other nations. Some were handed over to the enemy as a means to ransom their warriors back, or buy forgiveness.
This also means that the CC and FWL would never have a new Atlas, as neither one of them made it.
And even before the FC merger, the DC was selling the CC mechs. Jenners were some of those mechs.
Some tech was exclusive to specific houses. The C3 and light gauss being but two of them. The DC did not really integrate the C3 in their equipment, so battle field salvage wasn't possible.
Again, read the printed word, not the between the lines concept, of the clans and how they fought. Once the government surrendered, and even at times when the leader of the planetary invasion said it was over, did they say it was over. This did NOT mean active fighting was still going on. The front line moved on, and let the second and PGCs take care of the rest. As this means fighting dezgra units, the front line was happy to leave them.
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ghostrider
05/12/22 09:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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So your own statements tell the lie of WOB being bred for combat against the clans. They hit Comstar, while Comstar was fighting the clans, and refused to participate until the FWL was involved sending units. And yet this didn't tell you that they had were not going to fight the clans, meaning their statement was a complete and total lie?
Get a hold of the books printed BEFORE the retcon of things like the mobile HPG. There was no such mention in the original TROs or house books. They were fitted into the game afterwards, as the history was trying to be filled out. There is no mention of SL equipment and gear before TRO 2750. It was made up to make that book.
Those items were NOT in the game before then.
The annihilation of the Jaguars was done to end the war. To hit all the clans would have caused even more destruction, so the alt has no place in canon discussions. The Jihad is roundly stated as crap. It should not have happened.
To attack all the clans at once would have caused the IS to lose the ability to use a trial of refusal for the invasion. The reason given is correct. To destroy one clan, the main clan pushing for the invasion, and had the Ilkhan with it, was seen as a war between the two. Hitting the others, would have cause more to become involved, and the IS could not handle that, especially when in the deep periphery and at the clans home worlds. So Task Force Serpent would have been lost, and the only way the IS would know about it is when the clans renewed their offensive. Or some of the members showed up as bondsmen.
And why would the clans retreat to the periphery? Because the Jaguars lost battles? This is showing a lack of understanding the clans ways of thinking. They would hold until the last warrior. They would kill as many as they could to defend even the worse worlds. It is their way of life.
The Cats were not giving the DC their tech. It was stated as such multiple times. And with FC would have had that tech and have been making it, if not for the garbage of costs. Given the costs of the earlier wars, the cost of the clans weapons were nothing compared to that. And with that, you don't think the other clans would have engaged the Cats to remove their dishonor for joining the IS? Especially the DC? History shows the DC willingly engaged in wanton destruction and unnecessary killing of non combatants. The act is what would set them off, not the fact freeborns died from it.
Wow, comprehension and reading between the lines was lost here.
' One that gets Isis Marik killed the day of the wedding. And even though the "I dos" had not happened yet, she is shot in a manner that prevents that from happening and the wedding is attacked as well, an enraged Sonny Boy blames Victor and uses this to have Marik attack the Fed-Com with him. WoB uses their control of the Marik HPG net to send out highly doctored footage of the events, and "captured" Fed-Com commandos and others all are seen confessing to the plot, etc...this causes issues with the Fed-Com. Kat, while in on the plot, uses this to push that her brother is a danger and should be stripped of his rule.
as more info comes out Marik tries to pull out of the war, the WoB let leak his an imposter, and they parade another imposter of Thomas,
Does this sound like WOB or Sun Tzu was urging the assassination? How is it possible? WOB owned Terra at this time as well. HMMMMM?????
Even being held on a different world, it could still happen.
A second instance of not understanding the clans ways. There are multiple freeborn villages that had nothing to do with clan employment. They farmed their own food, and kept out of the warriors way as much as possible. These camps were probably recruiting grounds for the bandit caste, which is a fine example of those not employed by the clans. The warriors didn't care about them, as long as they did not bother the trueborn warriors.
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Karagin
05/13/22 01:49 AM
70.118.172.64
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Nice, I had a very good discussion on the pros of a mobile HPG and why it's not really a major retcon and the ether ate it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/13/22 02:05 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
How is it that WOB
Technological advancements are as much about luck as intelligence …
Quote:
HPG Range
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
Super-HPGs – standard is 50 light year limit – super has a range of nearly 1,000 light years …
Quote:
Mercenary Raiding
I would assume it is dependent upon the target as well as the security – that is the probability of achieving their objective – I would also like to add, what is the probability the mercenary raid is just an elaborate ruse, and it has been determined that the mercenary unit is expendable un this case, to allow a house unit to attack the true primary target.
I would also like to add that raids, almost never result in the planet changing hands – that is unless there is a very small population, and the planet is also insignificant.
Quote:
Alt. Universe – Mellisa killed during the Silver Eagle incident
Black spot on the Kell Hounds, what happens to Dan Allard and Patrick Kell?
Com-Star – everyone keeps on allowing them to get away with it, ever thought of what would happen if they were caught in the act?
This would change the entire IS history from this point on …
Quote:
Kincaid Storyline
Are you suggesting the following? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Proprietary
As it involves smuggling into the CC.
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… and let the second and PGCs take care of the rest
Second Line Touman and PGC – problem available forces – three quarters the way to terra and you will run - even with PGCs there are just not enough!
In addition no one even considered the psychological impact an open society has on a closed society
Then there is the issue of a command unit raid – Clans have never had to prepare for such an eventuality.
So, all in all most garrisons will not be that well protected.
Quote:
WOB … combat against the Clans
Sophistry ….
Command decision to proceed requires entry into the Second Star League as a member.
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those items were not in the game before then
At what point are technological improvements allowed in the game?
As Clan weapon systems were not in the game before then, thus they too should not be included … so no omni, no toads …
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the annihilation of the Jaguars was done to end the war
Sorry but at this point I just can’t stop laughing at the absurdity of this …
The only way you are ever going to end the war with the Clans is when their culture and their iron born warriors are all destroyed.
Also the initial operation was to destroy all the Clans (that had not switched sides) within the IS – it had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Home Clans (for now).
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why would the clans retreat into the periphery
Because these Clans had been defeated militarily and they had lost all worlds they had initially conquered.
Thus their only next stop would be the periphery.
The sibko system does not work when compared to the IS academy system.
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Isis Marik
Still do not believe this will work.
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Freeborn villages
Which one ? As most would just consider them mobile targets.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/13/22 12:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Might be better if you went back to ignoring the thread, as the responses are going further and further off the track from the posts.
In a lull, you want to keep pressure on the enemy. Raids are a good way of doing so, with keeping the losses down.
Being a merc, you have a good idea on which employers will drop you on a world then leave you. Others will do as they can to make sure any survivors make it back with their units. And no. Raids normally don't result in the conquering of worlds. It is done to prevent the enemy from catching their breath. Force them to spread out more as well as sending resources to fix the damage.
Comstar would use the same lie as most would. Melissa was not using her real name when traveling. They got intel suggesting this person that looked like here was an assassin on the way to kill Hanse Davion. Or even suggest she was a casualty as they were after someone else.
And Comstar was caught a few times. Proving it, and punishing them is the problem, as stated in the past.
The items Kincaid was selling to the CC at that point WERE illegal. This is not the case of sales before the SL tech. To my knowledge the ban was only on SL tech. So a normal LRM ton was ok, but swarms, thunders and such weren't.
Doesn't matter the numbers of the PGC, the fact is the front line DID NOT hunt down every last person fighting them before they moved on. They said their conquest was done and left the clean up to others.
To fight the clans, WOB needed to join the second league? That makes no sense. They could have attacked the clans instead of Comstar. There was time between their formation and the formation of the second League, they could very well have hit the clans. They didn't. So no. The lie that they were there to fight the clans was proven by their actions. And then the hit the states that upset them with nukes. Nothing against the clans.
Improvements can be made in the game. The issue is real time line verses the game. Had the improvements been in the game from the start, the entire history of the IS would have been different. What would have happened if SL tech was found before the Helm Core? Not all of it, but say a single weapon system. Kept to the spec ops, and destroyed if the unit was not going to make it. The entire ER line of weapons could have been done with a single breakthru of the line. Even in 3025, the swarm missiles would have devastated more then a few assaults by hitting multiple targets. The assault on Defiance in the Grey Death Legions book for instance. The mechs are said to have been sent up the ramp shoulder to shoulder. Against the stacking rules, but the swarms would have done more damage then a normal launcher. A thunderbolt doing the same thing.
So during WWII taking out Germany, the rest of the Axis had to die as well? They didn't surrender? The clans own traditions allowed the IS to destroy one of their own, then fight the rest in a trial of refusal. The IS only had the forces available to take on one clan. I do agree that challenging the others in a case by case fight to take worlds should have happened. This is where WOB could very well have fought the clans as they stated. The FRR definitely could have been the realm they could have done that with, as they were not freindly to the FC. And they did not seem to have issues with the clans joining the IS.
Because these Clans had been defeated militarily and they had lost all worlds they had initially conquered.
This statement alone says you have no clue on what canon has, and what you project into it thru the alt. The only clan defeated was the Smoke Jaguars. The Falcons, Wolves, and Bears retained their worlds. This is why people say you don't know what you are talking about. When did these three clans lose their worlds? Last I knew of, two of them were fighting on Terra to become the Ilclan.
The situation Karagin presented can work. But it does not follow your vision, as it removes Isis from the picture, destroying what you envisioned. That's fine. It was what his group did. No one has to even read it, much less follow it. It is not being touted as the only logical solution to use.
Mobile targets? How are they mobile when they have farms? Targets, they might be, but mobile is not correct. And there are villages that are NOT employed by the clans. Those living in them are not employed by the clans.
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Requiem
05/13/22 07:32 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Raiding
Careful, careful … raiding, during a pause, could be used as a pretext to restart conflict by the House that is ready to do so.
Quote:
Melissa
If it can be proved that ComStar knew who she was – the repercussions will be staggering.
This is the point plausible deniability no longer works!
Quote:
The ban was only on SL tech
There is, therefore, a ban on advance technology.
However, even maintaining a supply chain for spare parts with Rival Houses is an insane proposition.
As what this suggests is that the entire IS economy is in a protracted recession for hundreds of years – to which any sane government would consider ridiculous. Any sales is, therefore, placing their long term safety and security at risk. Sorry, but I consider this another black hole of the game, as each House should maintain their own military industry complex which is used exclusively for the security of their House.
House Lords security / military units, due to their oaths to their House, will be able to purchase directly from their own House’s military industrial complex in a manner similar to a military unit requisition.
Mercenary units, however, will have a hard time of it. Spare parts will require either a secondary market comprising battlefield salvage or obsolescence or a contract that provides spare parts from their employers as part of their remuneration contract.
Logistical top ups from a House’s military to the secondary market will also occurs due to part obsolescence / long term wear and tear. When older parts are extracted and replaced with new as there may be some life left in these parts if they undergo reconditioning. That is where the part has been stripped or disassembled, cleaned, and has had any damaged components replaced prior to being sold on the secondary market.
Though once again secondary market sales should be for in House mercenary units only as once a mercenary unit moves House, they will lose access to the old / gain access to a new logistics system.
Quote:
front line units DID NOT hunt down every last person fighting before they moved on.
And in so doing allows for a unit to undertake guerrilla warfare – retaliatory strike against the remaining garrison (usually only a trinary). Which in turn will require front line units to return – and thus slowing any advance.
Quote:
To fight the clans WOB needed to join the second league? That makes no sense.
Really? So you expect the WOB to operate within the Deep periphery on their own with no allied logistical support from either the existing 2nd Star League SLDF Logistical support as how are they supposed to operate within the IS fighting the clans at this point in time?
There is also the point of time – from ComStar’s first contact to the reformation where WOB splits from ComStar at what point after this does the WOB military become a sufficient sizeable force to thereby be considered activated for combat?
Lets put this another way then, in WW2 jargon – we had Allies and Axis powers – and we also had those that were neutral. So, the question is, are neutral countries allowed to initiate and engage in combat against either the Allies or Axis powers as a separate war form the main war and still be allowed to be called neutral from the main war – as this is an altogether different war?
What this is demonstrating is how infuriating the Jihad really is, the plot is so convoluted that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when you break it down to its constituent parts.
Quote:
Improvements in the game
Once more the black hole of technological improvements needs to be considered – what is realistic and what is best for the game given that the IS has the Helm memory core and should also have had Wolf’s Dragoons assisting.
Difficult call to make.
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The IS had the forces to take on one clan
Sorry but once again I really have to question the absurdity of this.
We are expected to believe that there is a 15 year period of truce and no one is underrating a total war rearmament program – whist at the same time introducing conscription in an effort to prepare for a total war against all the IS Clans.
Remember the Clans mindset is that of the Mongol / Spartans – war with them is inevitable, as war is the cornerstone of their society. There is no living side by side with them in peace as they will always desire a state of war – peace is an anathema to them.
Any realist will come to the conclusion – war to death of one society or the other – there is no middle ground anymore when it comes to Clan society.
Quote:
Trial of Refusal
Question – what does the great trial of refusal mean to the clans and to the IS?
What is it the clans had to give up and what is it that the IS gained in real terms?
Should the clans have retreated from the IS and returned home as the validity of the invasion was now null and void?
Quote:
projection through the alt.
Lets consider this shall we? Basic Proforma – not including IS political issues behind the scenes – wars between SL members / assassinations (just the usual issues)
CC no longer exists – it has been amalgamated into the FC
Wolf’s Dragoons has actually done their job and assisted with the redevelopment of IS technology
The Helm memory core has also assisted with the redevelopment of IS technology
By this point warships should have returned to the IS (that is even if they became extinct in the first place!)
The invasion commences …
Low priority worlds are conquered with alacrity …
However, once a sizeable populated world that has been assisted by their House to maintain / develop a high technological output – that Clan is now in a war of attrition, combined arms tactics should have swamped whole Clan units – their ability to replace lost warriors due to the sibko system should have started to hinder them.
Their ability to maintain consumables for any weapon system should have also become apparent – the logistics chain is too long for any effective and timely re-supply – sooner or later the majority of Clan’s Omnis will have to switch to primary energy weapon configurations.
Sooner rather than later a Navy war will erupt between the Clans and IS warships …
At this point IS forces would be initiating combat against their logistics fleets – at the same time freeborn Clansmen will be defecting – the lure of an open society where their skills will be highly prized will be too much for many … this will result in a skills shortage – at the same time guerrilla warfare in the rear is also reducing the numbers on the front lines …
There will come a point in time that the Clans Advance will Stall …
Also way earlier than that of Canon the IS will form a united front against the Clans – the 2nd Star League is formed including the 2nd SLDF.
Reverse engineering of Clan technology will commence in earnest
Total warfare logistics and military conscription will commence throughout the IS …
The idea that ComStar assists the Clans never occurs … as reports of their society proves an anathema to their beliefs … the schism never occurs as religious dogma and modernists agree that they need to work together to ensure the safety of the IS, and in so doing promote the Work of Blake as a religious belief within the IS through their good works in battle as a Templar Military Unit …
Attrition warfare will over time wear down the Clans (sibko resupply numbers are become ineffective against the force depletion reports) – Units within the Clans have to be folded into one another as losses become unsustainable in order to maintain operational groups.
Slowly but surely the Clan Horde will be forced back into the Periphery … at the same time IS omni tech should be seen on the front lines …
IS expeditionary SLDF units are created to hunt down the Clans and to find their Home-worlds – prior to a full invasion.
Comstar’s five hidden worlds have assisted in creating a new military to assist in hunting down the Clans
Both Falcon and Wolves will be deemed a failure by the Home Clans – either absorbed into other Clans or eliminated outright.
At this point new colony worlds will be need to be established – the IS will grow – and there will be multiple wars between the new SLDF and that of all the Clans (Home Clans will commence war) throughout the Periphery between the two realms.
Logistics chain will continue to be an issue for both sides
Also if the Cats or the Bears switch sides – given the size of the Leviathans compared to their total population – Only a very small fraction of their population will be saved – the remainder will be divvied up amongst Home Clans (after they have been sterilized – same as with Clan Wolverine civilians) … over time their society will be absorbed into one of the Houses and only rudimentary traditions will remain as the majority of Freeborns will reject the old Clan ways leaving the warriors isolated and alone …
Over time Jump distance must increase to decrease time to IS / Clan Home Worlds so that both sides will attack each other as the distance between the two realms is far to great / you would need a hundred-year war just to map and wage war to get from the IS to the Clan Home Worlds
Multiple new states within the deep periphery will be formed – either Clan or IS as they will continue the war over time as hate is passed down from one generation to the next …
The Sibko system will either have to be ramped up to allow more warrior graduates or the Clans will have to allow more freeborn to become warriors – this in turn will require a political shift in the Clans as Freeborn may now become named and rise to the position of Khan due to the numbers required to prosecute the war … this will also require a reformation of the Clan Society as a whole …
– Though sooner or later the greater population of the IS will prevail … Clans will be conquered, those evil parts of their culture that have not been removed will be removed for all time … The Clans will become something different.
For a time, there is peace … however this will not last as the Clan Dream of empire remains … and sooner or later someone will pick up the torch and the war will be on again …
Also how many times have I stated that I reject canon history – thus the idea of two clans fighting on Terra to become the ilClan becomes a ridiculous proposition based upon incredibly poor writing.
Quote:
Farmers
Consider the psychological rationale behind the German Einsatzgruppen, racial purity and the idea of us and them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/13/22 08:35 PM
45.51.181.83
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Raiding was done by all houses when they were trying to rebuild in both 1st and 2nd war. The 3rd war was a lot more raiding. SO when did it reignite a war?
Repercussions? The DC found out Melissa was on the Silver Eagle. And the Kell Hounds found out the DC knew she was there. Explain why Comstar would have to answer for anything.
WOB had their own logistics, as well as Terra before the clan truce. The FRR would have done what it could to get help, as Comstars involvement was only helping at the end of the first invasion. They had the map of the IS, which meant uninhabited systems that could use, as well as other intel. Saying they couldn't engage the clans is basically a cop out. During that entire time, even up to and past the second league formation, they could have hit the clans. Even if they were hiring out as mercs. The DC and FRR wouldn't have an issue with it. The FC might have, but if they pushed the clans back, then they could look the other way.
So yeah. WOB could very well have hit the clans before the SL reformation.
Gee. War to the death, yet the concept of destroying the enemy by any means is deemed wrong? Which do you support? You said the 1st and 2nd wars should not have been so destructive, yet the need to wipe out the clans means to do that.
The clans had a Mongol mindset, yet did nothing while part of their society was destroyed, and even said that is wasn't their fight until the trial. They agreed to the trial and consequences of it.
The trial was to end the invasion. It was not set to give back lands that were already taken. It also did not set a time limit before a new war could be started. The clans gave up their push to Terra for a while, while the IS gained a rest from the invasion. What is so complicated with this?
Let's consider this. The conversation is about canon and the statement of the ALT has no bearing here, and needs to be left out of it. Argue canon faults with canon logic.
As you said that the Falcons, Wolves, and Bear lost their property, they should have retreated into the periphery. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE CANON STORY. So most of the arguments coming up is pitting someone's made up story against canon. Canon is written up in the published books, not made up on the spot so only one person knows what is going on. And yes, the alt has changed when facts were brought up in discussions.
As stated, LEAVE ALT out of this thread.
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Karagin
05/13/22 10:33 PM
70.118.172.64
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How much trade goes between the Clan holdings and the bordering IS powers? And what happens when a Clan merchant vessel appears in say Davion system that has never seen the Clans other than on the tri-vee reports?
Wonder if they batter for things, like materials, heavy metals other goods, or is it a cash transaction.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/22 02:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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I doubt it would be cash, as the clans don't seem to do anything other then credits. Especially since they can't spend IS money in the clan home worlds. This may have changed as the years went on.
I would think that a vessel would set off alarms, just because it was not the nations ships. The nation in question may well try to shoot down the jumpship and dropship without proper identification.
The question of resources would go back to the question before, on if there could be a shortage in solar systems. A temporary need of materials until mines can be done would be about all the need for ores. Granted, they may still need extra as they build more things then they could find ores for a while.
If the game reported correctly, the Bears needed food for their holdings for a short while, as their governing skills were in sufficient to meet the needs, at first. Again, this is questionable due to the self sufficient outlook that was recently put forth.
In general, I would say barter did happen, even with the supposedly not needed supplies. We know the Diamond Sharks did, but how did they come up with how much a clan erppc costs verses IS stuff?
Funny things with this, is I could see the Sharks buying IS ammo, and selling it to the Falcons to keep them in the fight. 
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Requiem
05/14/22 05:48 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Raiding aka depredation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(military)
The purpose of a raid may include:
To destroy specific goods or installations of military or economic value;
This example demonstrates when the attack can only be considered to be deeply disturbing by utilizing a WMD …
2760 – A nuclear weapon is detonated on Demeter. Sparking a border war between the Capellan Confederation and Federated Suns.
Quote:
Repercussions
ComStar would have to answer for leaking the information as to Melissa’s covert travel identity and itinerary … which participated to the hijacking of the Silver Eagle.
Quote:
Saying they couldn’t engage the Clans is basically a cop out.
First, at what specific time did the new WOB military force become operational to undertake military operations?
Second, Politics must be considered – How will the members of the 2nd Star League react to the knowledge that the WOB has manufactured a vastly superior military force? Also in addition to this how will they react when they are told that ComStar maintained hidden worlds, which maintained all of the Star Leagues hidden technology during the dark ages of the Succession Wars, in order to manufacture such a vast military force? The backlash of which will be considerable.
Third, How will each of the individual Clans react to WOB’s new military.
At a basic level these questions will have to be determined prior to any combat operations upon the Clans. As these answers will have long term effects upon the WOB, how they are perceived, as well as their ability to remain within the FWL and finally their ability to become a member of the 2nd Star League (ultimate short term goal!).
So it is not so much a cop out as it is an information gathering exercise prior to becoming public knowledge.
As how many times has the military kept projects hidden for the fear that when the public became complicit as to their activities, they would demand they are shut down? This is what is going on here.
Quote:
Military War – Political Aim
War is as much concept as it is conduct. Before entering a war, politicians are required to provide clear goal(s), as this will provide the military with an exit ramp / conclusion of war – what are we fighting for knowledge.
Succession War – Goal: Attain the position of First Lord of subsequent revitalization of the Star League.
The only realistic method of achieving this is to acquire your enemies worlds (resources – people and technology) as undamaged as possible - make them you own – thereby allowing your forces to continually increase in size and scope to a point in time in which your forces will conquer the IS in as pristine condition as possible – as this will provide legitimacy as to your (and your future generations) right to rule the Star League.
Remember the right to rule will require the new First Lord to be seen as upholding the values and morals of the Star League in order to rule. The use of WMDs will just make you and your progeny to be viewed as dictators on the same level as Stalin and Hitler for the mass genocide of worlds through the use of WMDs.
Clan War – Goal: Two parts – First to reacquire ALL lost worlds to the Clans during their initial invasion; Second – attempt to maintain a peaceful cohabitation between the Clan Home Worlds and the Inner Sphere.
Unfortunately, due to the Clans psychological indoctrination as to the sate of War to achieve all political goals – Mongol / Spartan theology based upon a complex list of rules and traditions that underpin their very way of life. The inner sphere is left with one undeniable conclusion the clans will never stop waging war until they have achieved mastery over the entire human race.
Therefore, what this will eventuate into is a genocidal war to destroy the Clans until the point in time they change their society’s values and give up on the idea of war is the solution to everything.
Even though the new SLDF attacked only one Clan I would like to point out what happens on the conclusion of the 15 years truce – all belligerent IS Clan forces will recommence their war – thus yes, their societal rules can be used, however, at the end of the day they will revert to combat for the sake of combat in achieving all their pollical aims / goals.
Thus leaving all of their neighbours with one scenario – war to stop them, and in this case this will only occur when the Military Society has been removed and replaced with a civilian one – which in all likelihood will be achieved only when all their military personnel are dead.
Quote:
The trial was to end the invasion.
How fantastic! (satire) Lets stop the war for 5 minutes and then commence a second war and state they two have nothing in common … (satire one again)
Once again we receive pitiful writing as the trial puts the war on pause for an undeterminable time frame … what a load of BS.
There should have been some quantifiable measure to winning – such as all Inner Sphere Clans had to now return home to the Clan Home worlds and giving up on their newly conquered territory … they lost so they leave … as if they had won the opposite would have been a resumption to the war and in all likelihood all Home Clans would have been allowed to fight. Thus, in all reality it should have been made into an all or nothing scenario.
Sorry but I find this point to be incredibly pitiful writing ….
Quote:
THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE CANON STORY
Thus by this argument the canon story is inviolate and can never be criticised as everything that happened is without fault.
If the canon story was written to publish books then they should have made it into a better story as this would have ensured the continuation of the game (as per Black Library – Warhammer, Warhammer 40K etc).
Hence the need for a rewrite so that it can compete against Black Library, rather than hidden away on the net.
Question – how are we going to make criticisms without providing examples as to how it can be improved upon in our opinion? As if it is inviolate then no one can make criticisms to begin with.
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How much trade goes between the Clan holdings and the bordering IS powers?
Answer – with those Clans who are actively engaged in belligerent activity – None.
With the sole Clan that is there only to undertake merchant activity – This is where military psy-ops and LOKI would step in. Aim – provide them with a variety of ‘goods’ that are designed to de-program Clan freeborn from accepting their current way of life in order to desire a more rewarding IS life that is closer to the former Star League than that their military overlords have lied to them about. i.e. the aim of the game is to start a rebellion on the Clan home worlds – Freeborn Vs. Trueborn.
Question – how can a Clan merchant vessel (and its crew) be unaware of their origins until they view other vessels of the same class on a tri-vee report?
Is their mass amnesia – also if the IS military noticed a new class of Jump-ship wandering around don’t you think they would board it to find out what is going on?
Also given that unless the Clans have ‘acquisitioned’ IS currency from worlds they have ‘acquired’ then the only rational form of transaction would be the barter card, and a good merchant can note tells to determine if a product has wealth or not – at the end of the day it is instinct and knowing what has and does not have intrinsic value … as well as knowing what is rubbish and what is not as many merchants deal in rubbish when they know they are dealing with a rube who has no knowledge of a products true wealth.
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Buying IS ammo to keep the Falcons in the fight
Problem – does FC ammo have the ability to fit in Clan weapon systems – as above we were arguing over the retooling of IS ammunition plants so as to allow Clans to use them.
Thus is this ammunition a specially made custom order ammunition?
Also when using IS explosives the bang will not be as big thus wont their warriors curse the defective ammunition and by extension the Clan that sold them the defective junk in the first place – thus wouldn’t the Falcons want payback (revenge) for the defective consumables?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/14/22 10:41 AM
70.118.172.64
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The shortage doesn't mean a system, if I can get more of say cobalt from your planet than I do my normal sources, well it makes more sense to get it from you. Or I could trade for resources to then turn around and trade those off for something. Lots of scenarios.
Yes, the Sharks would do that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/22 12:06 PM
45.51.181.83
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A raid is not using nukes to destroy a target. It is sending in forces to hit the target, though it may well still leave radiation depending on the target. The houses have been raiding each other throughout the 3rd war and beyond. The DC used suicide troops to raid borders during the lull between wars to prevent repairs of those border worlds.
WOB first official use of their military to hit Terra, taking it from Comstar. The were posing as the 21st century lancers if I recall.
How did the members of the second SL take to learning WOB had the military? What does the 2nd SL have to do with WOB hitting the clans anyways? They could have hit the clans before it was made. They could have hit it after as well. They didn't. So their stated purpose was a lie.
Each clan would deal with it as they would any other military force in the IS. Destroy it when they could. They would have to deal with the new tech, and that would be about it. Which in game terms means the clans would have gotten that tech and made it better (I dislike this part).
WOB had full access to Comstar intel before and after they took Terra. They had access to everything Comstar stole from the houses involved with the clans. Had they struck the clans and started defeating them, atleast 2 of the houses would have been more favorable on their outlook, for a while. They would be seen as the knights they wanted to appear to be.'
Civilians, and the house leaders, are worried that what ever was hidden would be used against them, to subjegate them into becoming slaves to those that have the hidden labs.
Acquiring their resources, and trying to obtain that goal quickly do not go hand in hand. Taking out as many soldiers as you can, to force your enemy to surrender was the goal during the first war, and the 2nd war did not learn from the mistake of the 1st war. As the 3rd war came about, the concept of having to take the enemy's resources was forced on the combatants, as they were having problems rebuilding. The is the game history. Not as logical as it should be, given other logic issues, but generally accepted.
The right to rule comes from being the top dog. The use of nukes and such will be smoothed over when you write history of the action. No matter what you do, you will never be fully accepted by the entire population of even your own nation, much less the entire IS.
Now. Where did the clans lose ground during the invasion? You keep claiming this, but where in the canon history did the clans lose this ground? The Jaguars are the only clan that lost their territory. And were destroyed, so they couldn't get it back. Where in the books does it state the clans lost their territory? They didn't.
Yeah. War, or threat of violence is not the mainstay in two of the IS houses, with the third example of WOB notwithstanding. Oh yeah. Let's not forget the pirate organizations with this at well. The clans are correct with the trials concept. It does promote might over right, but then all strongmen organizations do this, but it also limits the damage done and removes most of the issues of hold outs. During the fight, you don't walk over to where civilians are hiding at and stomp on them for the hell of it. Poison and other things are not used to make sure that if you lose, the facility is useless.
Gee. Didn't the succession wars do the same thing? Isn't that was all reoccuring wars did in history? The same piece of land fought over time after time is common place. There is nothing in clan history, except the Ilclan prize for Terra, that had a fight give a physical prize like land, immunity to further trials. There was always a time limit for that. The IS had to know that before they went in to demand the refusal trial. It isn't like humanity has not stopped fighting over property since history started, so why would it happen now?
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ghostrider
05/14/22 12:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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The war was stopped. That is quantifiable. The worlds at the new border were able to do something other then prepare to be hit, at least for a while. Rebuilding forces and training new soldiers could happen without the need to rush them to the front lines.
Thus by this argument the canon story is inviolate and can never be criticised as everything that happened is without fault.
Criticized is one thing, out right lying to try and twist the truth is another. This is very much appearing to be that canon is unknown, and promotion of an alt is being done. If you can't get your canon facts straight, then stop posting in canon threads. The clans did not lose ground to be forced into the periphery. Not sure why this is so hard to comprehend.
It was stated this is a canon discussion. Posting things that are lies, and suggesting they are the truth is the problem.
Belligerent activity? Like invading the CC for the 4th war? For trying to become first lord by killing your enemy? Any war that the primary objective is to seize lands and resources just because you want them? The clans did have a reason for invading the IS, besides make more money for the developers. They were trying to restore the SL with their views.
The clan vessel's crew being unaware, wasn't the question. It was how would the IS worlds deal with the clan vessel.
The timeframe of when the trading was taking place also changes the answer to what the IS would do with a clan vessel in their area. The initial invasion would have immediate hostile response to it, while 3100's would have more communications before a major response. There was no time frame stated in the question.
Given the game does not go into the actual differences of the ammo sizes, and all the fluff suggests that you can use ammo from the enemy, then it would be you can use it.
As stated before, the IS/clan ammo isn't what causes the difference in damage and range. There is nothing stating that the ammo changes these. It just appears the weapon itself does this, which is completely illogical. Look... Canon logic to show canon logic is incorrect.
I know they did it to keep the game simple, but this is stupid. And why didn't the IS change the LRMs so they were like the clans and didn't require the minimum range?
Where in the rules does it state that an AC 10 round is more powerful for the clans then the IS version? This is the issue.
Food would be a major thing the clans traded for, at least at first. The warriors would not be growing any, and shipping it from the home worlds leads to many problems.
As stated, currency would be an issue when you can't come up with a trade value. I mean how many bushels of apples would pay for a clan double sink, or endosteel?
I really don't see H-bills doing it, and even C-bills being unlikely.
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Requiem
05/14/22 09:12 PM
101.185.82.214
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Cobalt – supply issues
What does your long-term contract with a multi-planetoid metals and mining company require of you would be a more informative issue? As if you have a short term or even one-off contract this will open any company to access control – what happens when another company steps in and agrees to pay more for all the Cobalt in your area – in the end the price could become so prohibitive that it could destroy the finances of the company / the company can no longer gain access due to the exorbitant price. This then will affect sales contracts … which in turn can lead to a massive drop in share price … as well as a possible hostile takeover.
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Raiding
Sorry but I disagree, the definition of a raid includes the destruction of specific goods or installations of military or economic value – it does not include how the destruction occurs, in this case by utilizing either plastic or a nuke. The result is the same and this is just an issue regarding semantics as to type of explosive used.
By definition, a raid did occur, and it resulted in a war.
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WOB conquest of Terra
And here I thought we were discussing the Manei Domini (Omni-tech / Power Armour etc.) and not a unit posing as mercenary unit – which is using outdated and old equipment.
The members of the second Star League would have already known that they have access to these weapons as the knowledge regarding the ComGuard has become know since the end of the Federated Suns Interdiction.
They could have hit before the Manei Domini was made? Again this is a political issue as to how ComStar, and the other members, would react. Also if you want to use shock and awe wouldn’t it be for the best to keep your cards close to your chest?
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the clans would have gotten that tech and made it better
So the clans are now going to implement cybernetic interface systems into their warriors also? Or are they going to call them abominations and desire to kill them off as they have an issue with regards to genetic racial purity.
That is by adding mechanical bits on they are no longer pure in their genetic makeup.
Consider Dr. Who episode – Remembrance of the Daleks.
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Insidious Knights
Think this through …
Taking the image as bold Knights … similar to that of the FWLs … with all the trappings and the sir and dame …
Then add in the master as their Templar Lord (new name – like Focht)
They would have the ability to make converts all throughout the war zone and the DMZ- anywhere they go
They would be viewed as liberators, heroes of the 2nd Star League…
If they have a hospitaller unit with them they would have been seen in a very favourable light – feeding the hungry, saving the sick, repairing the damaged … even championing the cause that having a prosthetic does not make you any less of a human, it does not need to define who you are …
If a news agency reporter were attached the reach of their positive message as to the sanctity of Blake would extend to near all planets in the IS over time … and again would be viewed favourably …Over time their influence (and power) could rival any religion …
The question is what do they do with that influence and power? A silent invasion of ideas ….
However, to do this will require the right nexus point – time and circumstance when entering the stage!
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Taking out as many soldiers as you can, to force your enemy to surrender was the goal during the first war
And this is where everything falls off the rails. Not only are your forces nuking enemy combatants they are also nuking enemy civilians whist at the same time your enemy is using nukes like M&Ms in retaliation.
All this proves is that as a leader of such a military this individual is not worthy of the title of First Lord of The Star League as they have demonstrated that they would rather reign over a vast field of nuclear ash and biological dead zones that contain only the dead rather than actually demonstrating their ability to rule as is expected of a First Lord.
Thus any leader caught up in this is litter better than a Stalin or Hitler … you cannot just re-write history, those who lived through it will condemn their names for all time …
What this also demonstrates is that who ever wrote this has no real idea of what they are writing and are attempting to be sensationalist for the sake of being sensationalist.
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Where did the clans lose ground during the invasion?
Cannon is inviolate thus cannot be questioned, all hail cannon!
Question what happens when a Clan invasion unit is attacked by the vast number of Combat Vehicles every world can manufacture?
Sorry to say but they will not last very long!
Once again pitiful writing as an excuse for historical events – time to add in all the facets of IS war and then see how the Clans fare against them …
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The Clans
So how does it feel living in a clan society if you are not a warrior and all you are and ever will be is a nameless cog that is never allowed to deviate and is never allowed to have your own thoughts and is never allowed to pursue your own dreams?
Also remember what was written within the 1st Somerset Strikers Book re the Clans …
Also, as for civilians, how are those at Turtle Bay?
Quote:
Clan History
1st What happed to those individuals who wanted to live their lives prior to the establishment of the Clans? What did Nicki do them again? And why did many fears he would become the new Amaris?
2nd Clan Wolverine
Also wars are fought with a clear objective in mind – the Clans however fight for the sake of fighting they are little better than barbarians who use their “war games” to justify their superiority when in all reality they little better than you common thug.
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The war was stopped
Really? And how long between then and the next? Also remember one of the aims of this war is to remove all of the Belligerent Clans from the IS … so as to return the people back to their original states and not to leave them under the yoke of the Clans permanently.
Which demonstrates one again the writers and their characters “Victor” etc is more than willing to through a vast number of people into a tyrannical society just for their own whim. Sorry but this once again demonstrates a very badly written opera …
However as for Victor’s character when you do a deep dive you realize how pitiful he really was.
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out right lying to try and twist the truth
Really? There is cannon and then within the title of my works there is Alternative Universe (called AU for short – suggest you google it as it is a legitimate style) thus right from the beginning the reader understands that the author will be diverging from the original to create their own.
Thus, it in no way is lying or twisting the truth, the author is expressing their own alternative fanfiction – that has been surging for many years.
The true issue, is if I was to guess, is that many of the scenarios I have developed have a created a far more invigorating and exiting history than that of the original.
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They were trying to restore the SL with their views
i.e. a war of conquest to impose a tyrannical government with communist ideas of a dystopian universe of say 1984, clockwork orange etc.
that in no way can be considered having the same ideals as that of the original due to a complete lack of understanding / empathy towards the human spirit.
Oh yes, this is a wonderful objective (satire once again).
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Food would be a major thing the clans traded for, at least at first
Don’t you mean steal … as what we conquered is ours, thus we can just take it kind of mentality when it comes to communal property owned by communist state.
As in all reality they should have been running low in the initial stages of the invasion given that the next logistics fleet could be up to six to twelve months distant and given that no one ever decided to consider Clan logistics within the game. Thus you can make it up as you go.
And again – how many banks currency can the Clans take, from world they have conquered, and use for currency on other worlds to acquire goods if they thought they could do so?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/14/22 10:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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War in the Inner Sphere has all kinds of levels. From open warfare between the houses to rivalry between merc units, to corporations trying to put their competitors out of business by all means possible. Then throw in the shadow wars between the intel services and you have war as a daily part of life.
Event the pirate raids are war, but the catch is war is a racket and in Battletech, it's down to a science. Lives are cheap, Battletechs are not. Everything comes down to money or resources or both in some cases.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 01:35 AM
45.51.181.83
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Get a new dictionary, or maybe reread what raids cover. It isn't just about blowing things up. Raids can include, but not limited to kidnapping people, stealing prototypes and other things, taking research materials without destroying a facility. There are raids done by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies around the world. Where raids do include blowing things up, it is not limited to doing such things.
The claim that WOB was in no position to hit the clans without being part of the 2nd SL was the discussion. Even with being part of it, they did not hit the clans, so the entire idea they were made to destroy the clans is false.
Just stop. The clans using Enhance Imaging tatoos, which is a cybernetic interface was done. Saying they wouldn't shows you have no idea of the canon story line. Best just put the alt completely away and reread all the canon books before posting again, as things are being posted that are completely false.
Oh yeah. Forget reading between the lines and comprehensive reading. Those haven't done any good as well.
Moral victory does not put you on the throne. Making sure everyone fears you enough to put you there is. This is war. It is NOT a political office won by the most popular vote.
You did not answer the question. Where did the three remaining clans lose ground? I can say that Victor pulled a Death Star out his butt and won the entire battle by himself, but that has no reality in the game story. What if they released all the monkeys from the zoos around the IS and sent then to fight the clans? Did they? Did the monkeys win or lose? Oh wait, it never happened. So answer were the three clans lost ground or go away. The constant falsehoods are getting old again.
Somerset is retcon material. It was done to include the cartoon crap into the canon line. As such, it is about useless as the other books actually deal with the clans, not just some video made up to make Adam Stiener look good.
How are the civies doing that were in target areas of almost any war? The IS used nukes and other things in their bid to become the new ruler of all. The only way to avoid death is not to war. And when attacked, you have no choice.
But to answer your question, they died when Amaris killed Richard and started the war that destroyed the SL.
There is always opposition to any changes. That is not saying they are wrong or right, but the only thing they could have done was get out before it went into effect. The fact a civil war destroyed most lives right before the clans were instituted is why they were accepted. If you don't like this fact, then give back your psychology major as people will agree to a lot of things to get out of a constant war.
Where in any of the writing was it said the Trial of Refusal was a war to remove the clans from the IS? Where is this even hinted at? The trial to was stop the war at that time. Everyone knew war would start up again, and it started with the FC civil war. Then other conflicts broke out.
If the goal was to remove the clans from the IS, there would not have been task force Serpent. It would have been a broad front push against all the clans at the same time. Which would have cost far more lives then what happened. It would have meant hitting all the clans with limited forces.
So where was the agreement to stop wars between nations after the SL fell? Did anyone agree to it?
The canon story was being discussed and was said it was only canon. The statement of the clans losing ground was stated in a manor as to make is sound like that happened in canon. To post something that is not in the canon line, is to be lying about the canon story. Multiple times the subject was only canon. And yet the continuation of canon being wrong because of someone's alt says it is comes back. Multiple times it was said to use canon facts to argue against canon facts. This justifies the suggestion that if it isn't canon, then it is a lie when discussion canon. Simple logic. It was also said to leave the alt out of the conversation. If people want to hear about it, they will comment in the multiple threads put up for it.
Wasn't the SL trying to force the periphery to join them? Sounds close to the same thing. And communist isn't the correct example. The clans did not decide everything was owned and share by everyone. They decided that military might ruled. Dictatorship is closer, though a few others are even closer.
Steal? The clans did not raid other worlds around them for food. They did what all conquerers do. The take everything for their concept. When there isn't enough, then they have to do something like maybe trade for more, and go to war for it.
There was another idea that came up with the self sufficient and the need to trade. Not all foods would be grown on each world. Trade would be needed to get in a variety for the people.
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Requiem
05/15/22 05:31 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Raiding – Get a new dictionary, or maybe reread what raids cover.
When I suggested the following website, as noted above, I actually thought it would have been perused … rather than being ignored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(military)
as it contained the following,
The purpose of a raid may include:
- the demoralize, confuse, or exhaust the enemy;
- to ransack, pillage, or plunder;
- destroy specific goods or installations of military or economic value;
- to free POWs;
- to capture enemy soldiers for interrogation;
- to kill or capture specific key persons;
- to gather intelligence.
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the entire idea they were made to destroy the clans is false
And yet again no comprehension of what was written above,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini
First Paragraph under the heading Jihad … “These forces were initially raised, trained and equipped for a genocidal showdown with the Clans, as most of their augmentations are aimed at besting the genetically enhanced Clan warriors.”
Thus as stated above YES they (The Manei Domini) were created to destroy the Clans.
Quote:
Enhanced Imaging tattoos
Question are Enhanced Imaging the same as cybernetic implants? As cybernetic implants don’t have the limited shelf life that EI has and they are more just a tad bit more invasive as they are prosthetics …
Quote:
Moral victory does not put you on the throne. Making sure everyone fears you enough to put you there is.
Yes you can consider Machiavellianism and the Dark Triad, however, consider Confucius
What is there to fear? Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. The way of the superior person in threefold: virtuous, they are free from anxieties; wise they are free from perplexities; and bold they are free from fear.
Thus in the quest and desire for power through fear, the more the leader utilizes fear, the more control they believe they need to feel safe … i.e. Stalin and the Soviet State …i.e. Hitler and the German Nazi state …
Then consider the Empire of Liberty (Thomas Jefferson), as well as the introduction of freedoms through the implementation of the Magna Carta (1215)
Take a guess which systems tends to last longer … due to the simple fact people tend to believe in an instruction that empowers them to better people rather than living in continual fear of their own government and their own fellow citizens who tend to inform upon others in an effort to prove their loyalty of a fearful state.
Also consider some of the Greatest … King Arthur for example …
Quote:
Where did the three remaining clans lose ground?
Why do I need to consider a completely ludicrous invasion that has more holes in than Swiss cheese?
Consider the Falcon Wolf War – at this stage where they have both virtually obliterated each other why didn’t anyone take advantage of this and rid the IS of these two once and for all?
And I am expected to defend the indefensible proposition that this story, at this point in time, has merit?
Quote:
Somerset
And yet the main characters within this story both become pivotal figures in their respective Cannon House history – so are they Canon or are they fluff that should never have progressed, as they cannot be both at the same time.
Still does not change the fact that the opening description of the Clans paints them as little better than Amaris’ forces.
Quote:
The Is used nukes
To get this in perspective … It was the Jaguars who used the first WMD, and it was the Falcons who threatened to use the Second … and yet here we are expected to believe that the IS would not retaliate in kind … what an absolutely believable story this is! (satire once again)
Quote:
people will agree to a lot of things to get out of a constant war
Sorry but you have lost me, please re-write in a way that can be understood as how do you get a causal link between what Amaris did and that of Jaguars did centuries in the future?
Quote:
Refusal
This was me putting my two cents in … when you consider what the objectives of the 2nd Star Leagues’ SLDF military aims should have been.
Quote:
hitting the clans with limited forces
Shouldn’t this read …’hitting the clans with vastly increased forces.’
At this point Task Force Serpent is not what is required … what is required is an expanded Operation Bulldog, the shock and awe of defeating all the remaining belligerent Clan forces would have placed the remaining Clan Home World Khans on the back foot … and would have led into a second Clan Invasion War … something that would have been far more believable than that of the Jihad …
Quote:
Agreement to stop IS wars
This would have been agreed upon as part of the agreement to form the 2nd Star League and the 2nd SLDF – their aim of which was to remove the Clans from the IS and thereby return all captured worlds (and by extension their peoples) to their Inner former Inner Sphere House.
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Communist isn’t the correct example
What are the important characteristics of Communism?
- Abolition of private property. Tick Ownership is by the Clan – all goods are officially the property of each clan.
- Collective ownership of means of production. Tick, centralized economic system
- Central planning. Tick, Clan Council – overarching administration of everything work targets
- Elimination of unfair gaps in income. Tick – Clan society is largely moneyless – workcredits – only the merchant caste has access to currency – Kerensky to allow the exchange of goods without having to barter.
- Provision of necessaries of life. Tick – grade determines access to amenities – including housing, transport and health care – the state decides based on your work if you need higher caloric intake, public transport, bicycle to vehicle …
Everyone is expected to work – even school-age children take apprenticeships and vocational training to supplement their education – and if they cannot they starve. This helps explains why the mortality rate is much higher among Clans than in the Inner Sphere.
And this is supposed to be the ideal Star League Era lifestyle – what a complete and utter load of ___________ !!!!!!!!!!!
And this is the system that many of you want to fight for?
Sorry but given the definition they are most definitely communists through and through.
Quote:
steal
Comprehension of what was written – my Clan conquered this IS planet, therefore everything is now owned by the Clan – we need meat, that farm has a cow – I will send the elementals to retrieve it.
An IS farmer demanded payment – thus the elemental took his head for impertinence to a warrior.
We have our meat and the Freeborn have been taught a valuable lesson.
From the point of view of the IS – theft of property.
Quote:
not all foods would be grown on each world
If the food is not being shipped to another clan then the merchant clan will just ship it as per the direction of the warrior caste.
If going over clan border lines – sell for Kerensky’s (unit of merchant currency).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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Where does it say that you must use explosives to perform all raids? And it doesn't say you have to use 1000 pound bombs or cruise missiles to do the ones that might need it.
And I can say that Amaris was a kind person. Isn't true, but then political statements tend to tell you what you want to hear, and not what is actually going on. Do you think WOB would not have been attacked if they came out and said their goal was to create the SL with them running it?
You can't figure out if the EI tatoos are cybernetic implants? The cause the host to go nuts in a short time, so they aren't? Don't cybernetic implants help organics interface with computers better among other things?
Did Confucius try to take over the entire world to become ruler? Was he under attack by other nations doing the same?
He became a religious leader, but did not rule the nation.
And how do most start. Thru war. You can switch to a non aggressive stance once you are in charge. It is to become the leader of all, ruling afterwards is different.
You do not have to defend the story. Just don't put in false facts when talking about it. This is simple. If you can not leave the alt out of a canon discussion, stay out of the canon discussion.
The reasons for not invading were given. I think they are weak at best, but that is the canon story line. The statement the other three clans lost territory is completely false.
Adam was bound for some recognition for being Nondi Stiener's child. The story line it presented was false until a retcon.
As the IS knows what happens when nukes are used, the leaders decided to avoid setting off another round of fighting like the 1st and 2nd wars. Isn't that learning from history? The IS also did not know how many, or if the invaders would resort to using nukes if they were hit by them. And with that, the use of naval weapons being considered WMD means that they would be banned from house arsenals. That is a logic flaw.
How does a casual link like people will do many things to get out of a constant war go with Amaris and the Jaguars? Maybe they decide to stop fighting or agree to them ruling to avoid the anguish caused by their war? But then the statement was about all wars, not just those two. Dictatorships have a lot of people that just live with the ruler being in place, instead of rising up against them. This is simple human actions in that type of situation. The world is full of examples.
State it as such. Saying that removal of all clans was what the trial of refusal was about is a straight up falsehood. For someone that wants to appear as a writer, the concept of using words to make a point seem to allude you. They should have, or should have been part of, would turn that from a false statement to an opinion. I am not a writer, and I know this. And back to the statement, keep alt out of this. It has no bearing, as no one here but you knows the entire story. At least canon is printed and all can read it.
The forces in Bulldog that didn't go with the task force, has to be returned to their posting to protect from further aggression as well as repair themselves. I do agree that at least some limited strikes to remove the others should have been ordered, but that might have been seen as taking on all the IS clans, not just one, creating a huge problem for the task force. The logic of not striking the others is accurate.
If not for Katherine, they may well have started hitting the other forces once they got back to the IS. Victor losing his throne while dealing with the clans meant no one could lead a multi nation force to do so. And Katherine never tried to push out at least the Falcons. So think about that before complaining that the other clans were not kicked out.
On a side note, should could well have gotten the WOB to start the process, at least to recover LA worlds.
The task force is limited resources. So hitting the clans with limited resources was implied that mean the Jaguars and Strana Mechty. I guess that needed to be said.
Lack of clan understanding shows thru again.
Depending on if trueborn or freeborn depended on where the children went. Those that flushed out of warrior training, went to apprenticeships. Some freeborns were trained as warriors in most, but not all clans.
The fact that starvation was not written about in the books, this statement doesn't hold up. Those that rejected the clans entirely would, as they had to grown their own food.
What cash did the clans use? I don't remember seeing anything of the sort.
The examples given for communism is also the staples of other governments. Private properties was more rentals. Your position gave you rights, and when you lost that position, you lost those rights.
The fact that the clans were NOT the same thing as the SLDF that they went out with, but was a take over government, the facts are inaccurate. And I do not see people saying it is the absolute best government.
One more fact. Communistic governments do have private properties. Otherwise ogliarchs could not rise up and own resource processing faciites and homes.
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Karagin
05/15/22 03:38 PM
70.118.172.64
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When looking at things, I doubt the WoB was ever really going after the Clans. Old Thomas Marik had way too much baggage to want to go for the Clans, not as the number one enemy. Given how the second the things turned on them, he ordered the release of the information that the current Thomas was an imposter, and here is how it gets me, we never see how they (WoB) convinced the whole of the FWL and other Houses to believe it. That is an issue in the plot/storyline, which makes me wonder how much faith TPTB have in the fans if they don't realize we are going to tear into things and ask questions, etc...
The EI tattoos are indeed surgically implanted, hence the Implant that is used to describe them. The SLDF stopped being the SLDF when their own Civil War broke out. At that point, the SLDF died. Old Nicky's 800 warriors broken into 20 Clans were all set up to make sure they didn't fall back into the old ways, (debatable if that actually worked given how the Clans view things), and to also revenge over the death of his father's dream.
The events of Bulldog were a bit overplayed, The idea was good, but the way it was written was not so good. The fact that they threw around the concepts of asymmetrical warfare in just about every other paragraph told me when I read it and even now, that the writers had just recently at the time gotten a full understanding of it and wanted to use said new knowledge and boy did they show that off. Then add in the very poor writing for the Jaguars and the piss poor comment made by Stackpole at GenCon over you should have picked a better faction, is telling on where many of TPTB are at FASA saw their relationship to that of the fans.
Picking the Jaguars to go after was fine, but what was stopping the Falcons from going after Lyran worlds? Or the Bears from attacking as things moved on? Yes, we know the writers didn't want those events to happen so they didn't, makes perfect sense. Once Bulldog was over we should have seen Protomech tech showing up in the hands of the Inner Sphere and both ComStar and WoB, but nope we didn't. The capture of Huntress should have gotten the Task Force members all the technical data the Jaguars had, along with the techs who could explain it all and correct me if I am wrong, but the Jaguars treated their non-warrior classes like a little better than slaves, so why did TPTB not have more of the locals jumping to join the Task Force since they had better chances with them, oh wait, I can hear a defense now, but the techs wouldn't want to go because of all the brainwashing about how evil the Inner Sphere was and soo...some would risk a new evil over one that treats them as worthless trash.
Katherine was more worried about power and bringing her brother down. She believed SHE was one who should rule everything. She was a petty fool who should have been shot by Vlad verse captured.
The Trial stopped the war, but it never was about removing the Clans, because that would not be logical. It was about limiting them and keeping them in one area of known space.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 05:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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Well written history lesson.
Nicholas created a society that was needed at the time. As with most, someone corrupt got into a leader position and changed the way things were supposed to go. It went from the all the castes having some say into how things ran, to the warrior caste being the overlords. The Wolverines opposed the change, but in order to avoid the newly formed clans from falling back into the old ways, the clan needed to be purged, as they did not want to adhere to the new government.
I could see a poor excuse that the Bears or Falcons didn't do anything, as the Wolves were ready to pounce, in order to get out of their corridor. Weak, but possible. We should have seen more action on the Wolf/Falcon borders anyways. The Wolves seemed to have lost the least amount of troops, and as stated, would want to expand their borders, as well as hinder the Falcons run to Terra when the truce ran out. As the clans didn't know what was going on, they should still focus on the end of the truce.
Once task force Serpent went into the periphery, I would assume that the clans would have been nervous. Not sure of the intel gathering, but having several regiments of troops, with warship support disappear into their back sides and supply lines.
The logic flaws, such as the techs and even normal people of the Jaguars not wanting to go to the IS is debatable. Not matter what, a couple of centuries of being told the houses were the evil that drove out the SLDF had to influence their decision. To try and get into another clan, or head to paradise, even with the brain washing would have been difficult.
No outside information or help does remove the hope of freedom.
I can see the trial did give hope that once the houses recovered a little, they could start going after the others. If the clans kept to their word, they could slowly hit back. Other things prevented such action. No matter what, Katherine was not the person to lead what should have been. Instead, the pressure to make all in the FC bow to her, caused the civil war.
In politics, I believe the simple concept of I don't care if you like me or not, support the nation, which also means not trying to use force because you don't like me. When a ruler of a nation, like in the game, there is no democracy in the game. So voting the nations leader out isn't an option. Violence is about the only way.
One last point. The queen of England does NOT have full control over her country.
Thanks for bringing up the history. I don't think I could have done it as well, Karagin.
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Karagin
05/15/22 05:54 PM
70.118.172.64
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Just offering insight. Yes, I could see the whole brainwashing part being the rendering issue with the tech, but I could also see the CapCon troops taking some by force and not giving them a choice, something that they (the techs) would be use to,
Stil the captured tech specs and other industrial items would have come back, so the Inner Sphere Houses should have gotten a better idea on how to fix some of their broken industrial items or on how to build Clan tech stuff without the need to for costly R&D. Quick history lesson, TONS of German WW2 stuff that was capture after the wars were studied and the information went into making things Western Allies wanted to be made, made better. All of the rocket and jet technology was a big prize and put to use as fast as possible. Just one example.
The salvage from the battles alone would have been a boon to the surviving Bulldog forces and the fact that they had the new IS Omnimechs that could handle Clan tech meant that they should have taken the plans and example of weapon systems back. Guess that was something either the PTB forgot, missed, or felt was just too logical so it couldn't happen because alien space bats didn't tell Victor to think of it. Along with all the other IS force commanders being idiots and not thinking of it. And some how the FWL forces and the CapCon side didn't have SAFE or Maskoriva agents along for just such an event or two...
Yeah the trial would indeed give hope to the IS and they would have been at each other throats again, but not as quick as we saw. The Combine would be more invested in reentergrating the worlds captured from the Jaguars as well as getting the Nova Cats integrated in and figuring out how to work with them, that would be a full time effort, plus watching the Bears and the FC borders. They wouldn't be jumping to play with others full time.
The Fed-Com clearly had issues. The whole Civil War was a mess from how it was presented, interesting and could have been milked for more years in real time, I think.
Then we have the other events, CapCon going after the St Ives and everyone being okay with it because CapCon was some how NOT breaking the new SL charter and all...yeah that's totally logical. And using SL troops do most of the fighting...yeah logical, oh wait no, no it wasn't at all. That action should have fractured the new SL right then and there.
Then the whole clone of Marik's son, cool story line/plot point, interesting look into how Victor was still living in daddy's shadow, and instead of him using the new info, that old Tommy wasn't the actual father, and Victor being savvy enough to go and talk with him or have a trusted colleague bring up the issue and what Victor was or wasn't going to do, nope somehow it all blows up into a new round of fighting and is then used by the WoB, wait what, they already knew he was a fake, yeah the more I look at things post Bulldog the more I see why my liver hates me at times.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/15/22 06:03 PM
70.118.172.64
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Moral victories only work in history books, even for the Battletech universe setting since each power presents itself as the MORAL righteous savior of humanity, blah, blah, blah. The only victories that matter are the ones that your side wins and keeps winning in order to defeat your enemies.
Victor failed to see this and it cost him, well everything. Sunny boy saw it but failed to understand it and while he regained things, he didn't really make the CapCon a superpower either. Katherine never understood it, nor did she understand the geopolitical setting she was trying to play in. She was good at regicde and that was about it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/15/22 07:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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Let's jump to the current timeline, so Alric has Terra, and the Wolves are the ilClan, yet not all the Clans are playing that game, not yet. And the Houses could really care less. Lyrans are going after Falcon worlds, wonder how that's going to play out for him and the remaining Falcons.
The Jaguars are back, pretty sure that's going to be the controversial thing for the other Clans and the Combine. Speaking of the Combine they have seriously put the hurt on the FedSuns and don't seem to be getting ready to give up anytime soon. And the CapCon is looking to lock horns with the ilClan and its military, that might be a bloody nose for both.
The reality for the what was the FWL, well it's a mess, not seeing them do much of anything for a while. The Periphery is doing its own thing of staying right where they are. New powers come and go.
As for the other known groups, mercs are still around, some more pissed off than others, and some just there for the fighting and glory.
As I have said before, lots of opportunities for the players to really dig and enjoy things, as long as we are given time to do so, and that is supported. One reason everyone liked the 3025 settings, was it got support, and it wasn't rushed. Clans came along with got time to digest that. Everything else, oh look new TRO, oh look new TRO, oh look..oh look new plotline oh look whole new game with click bases, we can see which version folks wanted there...
The reality right now is the PTB could do a lot and give us one hell of a Renaissance (no pun) of the game and setting and really move things along to a stronger point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/15/22 09:21 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
(The) … use of explosives to perform raids?
When ordered to perform a demolitions raid how is this then to be undertaken without the use of explosives? And when ordered to use a particular explosive (including a WMD) are you going to disobey? and then what if you are subsequently brought up on charges – disobeying orders, dereliction of duties, and cowardice in the face of the enemy (to start with) during your court-martial trial? …
Quote:
WOB … came out and said their goal was to create the SL with them running it?
Question – what were the events that brought on the Jihad era?
Could it be the dissolution of the 2nd Star League and thus the 2nd SLDF who’s remit was the destruction of the Clans, to which was also the religious dogma objective (their Saint’s Prophesy - Blake) of the Manei Domini, thus disobeying the will of God ….?
Quote:
Cybernetics
Clan Medical Technology … Advanced regenerative techniques that enables them to regrow nearly any body part (organic) Vs. WOB Medical Technology … Advanced cybernetic techniques that enables them to replace with advanced machinery nearly any body part (metallic).
Quote:
Confucianism
Semantics again?
Do you expect the Clans to be around for 3,500 years, as by the year 3000 that is how old Confucianism will be … also what percentage of the population are a part of Confucianism compared to that of the Clans?
How many countries have an official creed / religious belief that is endorsed by their state?
Quote:
Just don’t put in false facts when talking about it.
Quote:
Adam Steiner
And you complain when my information deviates from canon …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nondi_Steiner
Children – Lisa, Ivan and Richard
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adam_Steiner
… descended from the Simon Borge-Steiner a cadet branch of the main Steiner line, thus placing him about 8 to 10 generations separate from the current main family.
Quote:
Isn’t that learning from history?
When one side uses WMDs usually the other reciprocates in kind other wise if nothing occurs this just emboldens the one who used the WMDs to threaten their use again and again in order to dominate others …
Isn’t this what we have learnt from history?
Warships are the biggest gun on the battlefield and they have used them twice – as wouldn’t a House leader come to the conclusion that doing nothing will only embolden Clan warriors to use them again, and again … that is unless you have a bloodhound and an Ouija Board as well as oracles of Delphi, or entrails to read that may provide the information as to the Clans future use of WMDs …
Question – at the time of the use of Clan warship weapons as WMDs how many warships did the IS have (ans. – nil), or how many Drop-ships were converted to PT (pocket) warships to engage clan warships (ans. – nil)? So how can naval weapons be considered WMDs and be banned from House arsenals when they do not have them to start with? Yes, therefore, this is a logic flaw? As the only WMDs IS Houses maintained at this time are either nuclear, chemical, or biological.
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Dictatorships have a lot of people that just live with the ruler being in place, instead of rising up against them …. The world is full of examples.
What happens to those who do not have guns when they rise up against those who do? As isn’t this why guerrilla warfare / resistance military forces and the supply of military weapons from sympathetic governments occurs?
Quote:
The Great Trial of Refusal
Question – what is the polar opposite event – what occurs if the Clans are victorious? What happens next?
Quote:
If not for Katherine … Victor losing his throne … meant no one could lead
Really?
Whitting Conference of 3061
Katherine was attempting to become the next First Lord …
ComStar was placed in the position of casting the deciding vote …
Focht Resigned and Victor succeeded him, as Precentor Martial, and subsequently voted against Katherine
Theodore becomes first lord ….
Therefore most definitely yes, Victor is in a position to lead a second campaign against the Clans – what is stopping him is the collective will of the entire members of 2nd SL to undertake a war so close to “the conclusion” of the invasion through the Great Refusal.
Problem is any realist would tell you that the Great Refusal is a sham, it is just a piece of paper, the same as that between WW1 and WW2 and during the WW2, the period that would become to known as the Phony War – an unjust peace – and if you study history then you will clearly understand that an unjust peace leads to an unjust war …
The real issue is that Victor commenced a civil war based not upon hard facts as to Katherines wrongdoing but on his personal animosity toward her. That is in all reality she was a far better ruler of the FC than him and his personal ego got the better of him when his brother was ‘assassinated’ (kidnapped). What would have happened if the investigators on the ground had discovered that the bomb was a cover for the kidnapping would have changed everything – but he went off at Katherine half-cocked with no proof whatsoever and placed the IS and the 2nd SL in a position that it could not respond to the Falcon Wolf War … Thus rather than keeping harping on it is all Katherines fault the true fault lies with Victor and his insufferable belief in Military solutions achieve results (i.e. yes he most definitely has a Napoleonic psychological complex.). History should judge Victor as being a very poor leader, abandoning his post as First Price, to go swanning about as unit commander of a military unit, thus in all respects Katherine had no choice but to assume the throne to stabilize the House politically, economically, and militarily.
And this the truth regarding this period of time … “So think about that … [why] the other Clans were not kicked out.”
As for WOB – again they required to a member of the 2nd SL before they could act – also we do not know if they were ready as a front line combat unit at the start of The FC Civil War.
Quote:
Lack of Clan understanding shows through again.
Yes I agree, if you go to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans
Then go to the sub-heading Goods and Services, 3rd Paragraph starting with Civilian caste members … Keep reading and you will come across …. “Everyone is expected to work …”
The fact that starvation is written about means that it does stand up.
Cash – Look under the Sub-heading entitled High Finance …
Quote:
Communism
Then put forth a definition and prove it!
Who owns the rental properties – the state or other private individuals?
Quote:
Position gave you rights
For the political elite i.e the Warrior Caste this provided them rights – however can this be said for all other castes?
Suggest looking at the sub-heading entitled Law and Order and through the use of “brutal authoritative measures” – remind you of the old NKVD?
And just as the Soviets had deportation so too the Clans had the Prinz Eugen (Alcatraz) Facility.
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and I do not see people saying it is the absolute best government
What happens to those that say it is not a great government?
Quote:
communist governments do have private properties. Otherwise oligarchs could not rise up and own resource processing facilities and homes
Education system – google search would have helped here …
Communism – Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic – Government 1918 – 1990 Federal Marxist-Leninist one-party parliamentary socialist soviet republic
Russia – Government 1990 onwards – federal democratic state …
These are two completely different government systems …
So when deciding to join the clans may I suggest getting out the Clan variant to the hammer and sickle flag, crack open a bottle of Vodka, and start learning the Clan variant to ‘The Internationale’ as the Clans are most definitely an example of a neo Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic set within the BattleTech Universe.
‘The Internationale’ in English - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcXNXKtu8z4
Quote:
As with most, someone corrupt got into a leader position and changed the way things were supposed to go ….
If you read Betrayal of Ideals you will see that Nicholas’ idea of the Clans went exactly to plan as it was he who corrupted and destroyed any remnant of the SLDF, post his father loosing the plot completely and becoming a petty dictator during which the entire SLDF suffered PTSD during the Exodus …, in his plan to destroy everything this father cared for due to the fact that he was never acknowledged by his father whist on Terra … Thus what we see is a deeply disturbed individual, possibly psychotic, who’s only aim is to destroy the SLDF and convert it into something Amaris would recognise (yet on a vastly more disturbed level of psyopithy).
Quote:
a couple of centuries of being told the Houses were evil …
And yet the black market should have provided them with illicit goods from the IS – such as vids – courtesy of Psy-ops teams that should have made them to question what they were told … and once doubt sets in … how long until the revolution starts?
Quote:
The Queen of England does NOT have full control over her country
No kidding, it’s a constitutional monarchy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/22 10:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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As the original statement went, not all raids required explosives. That does not mean all raids can be accomplished without them. When stated raids can be done without blowing up worlds, the first thing was that was posted back was basically that was impossible to do.
The Jihad came about as WOB was pissed that they could not become first lord by blackmailing everyone, or intimidating them with their forces. So they went out of their way to show just how much like Amaris they actually were. Bombing worlds in a fit of rage.
Where does it say that implants that help control machines is not cybernetics? Where does it say that only robotic limbs is cybernetics? Might need to actually read dictionaries. The definitions coming up suggests the comprehensive and reading between the lines is not working well.
Yeah, you reverted by to semantics with Confucius post. The response was ruling nations in the time they were alive. Religion has done so in only a few cases, and they seem to turn corrupt quickly.
I made a mistake in thinking Adam was Nondi's.
False facts yet again. Warships were used only once in the game. The second was extortion. Had the government stood up to the Falcons, it would have been found out as a bluff. So again, the statement of being used twice is false.
And yet another false fact with the number of warships the IS had. Comstar had a few, but they were not known to the IS. It would also appear WOB had a few as well. They didn't build them when in the FWL before the truce.
And yet massive uprisings don't happen when weapons are supplied to those in oppressive governments. Now with the clans, where are these weapons coming from? Foreign governments didn't exist in the clans home worlds. The bandit caste stole their weapons and supplies. Yet the masses didn't rise up to threaten the clans leadership, Which is the whole point of this scenario. There was no outside help for 200 plus years.
The clans would send out challenges to the Ilclan, and probably work on taking all the IS as clan property. Why does this need to be said? Go bark at the developers.
Katherine would not have given any forces to the push to remove the other clans. She figured he would use them to take back his throne, as Sun Tzu took back the St. Ives. With that, Sun Tzu would not have sent troops either. Marik and WOB were concerned that Victor would take on WOB for Terra. Does any of this make sense? Also, Katherine was involved with the Wolves, so any such push to remove them would have shown she was a traitor to the IS. OOOOOHHH NOOOOO! Katherine was a full blown traitor to the IS?
I'm sorry. Did you read the same books everyone else did? Not your own made up ones, but the actual story line that Victor did not want to start the civil war, but was forced into it as Katherine was doing everything she could to hurt him, or remove him from all power? Anymosity? Victor could well had lead the forces from task force Serpent to remove Katherine by heading straight to the throne room, and most would have followed him. He stepped aside to prevent the deaths of some many people, which Katherine went ahead and took trying to secure her treasonous usurping the throne.
Katherine had no choice but to manipulate Yvonne until she stepped down? Instead of trying to keep the FC together, she schemed to destroy it. After she had done so, she found out she could have taken it all instead of destroying it, and started the civil war because of it.
And using your own words, Katherine did not try to take the first lord position by helping Victor take on the FWL. Had they done so, the CC and FWL would have been hurt a lot more then the LC. But no. She kept the LC out of it to hurt her brother. Yeah. Obtain the first lord thru conquering the enemy. That didn't happen here.
What black market? The clans did not have contact with the IS on the home worlds. Only a few units sent in for recon had contact. So again, false information being put up to try and support a fake position. Only after the trial of refusal happened, did the 'black market' have any influence on the clans home worlds. Unless you are trying to suggest the Diamond Sharks were the black market? Who were their buyers?
Oh yeah. Psy ops teams. That didn't exist during the time frame laid out in the statements. So who knew where the clans went right after they left the IS to the time the began the invasion? Who made that trip to perform the Psy ops during that time?
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ghostrider
05/15/22 10:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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My opinion has been stated a few times on why the IS didn't take clan tech. It would have made further attacks on the whole IS ineffective. So to allow things like the Jihad, they had to limit weapons to pea shooters again.
Every war tends to do the same thing. Pure greed start wars, but all leaders try to hide behind the patriotic stance or religion saying it was their solemn duty to kill the enemy civies in order to take what they wanted.
Now that is not saying those that are attacked are innocent, but they don't try and take the enemy's lands most of the time. A few times one is attack was from things like trying an assassination or stealing things that set off the other.
All the IS houses were based on taking lands from others. Wars were fought to create the states. Even the LC had a few conflicts to 'unite' them.
The point of Thomas not being Joshua's father, should well have been made public, as Thomas tried the grieving father role. Granted, it would have been looked down upon at first, but then Victor did not deny the replacement. This could well have set off the Comstar/WOB conflict. This would have shown something was up in Comstar, which would have destroyed the little trust the IS had for them, and really caused issues for WOB. To find out Comstar had pulled Thomas out and kept him alive and rebuilt him some, would have caused the rest to freak out. Then to find out the fake Thomas was a plant, and was friendly to WOB would have caused major issues for WOB. The basically did what Victor was accused of.
It might be interesting to see how that story line would have turned out, had it happened.
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Karagin
05/15/22 11:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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The freak out by the FWL, who according to canon, because of their dislike of anyone with cyborg implants or other similar items should have been enough to toss out the WoB. But here is another case of the canon being ignored. IF Victor had exposed things right after the opening attacks against him by Marik and done so with say an apology that yes he did keep the double ruse going, here is why and now he is going to come fully clean and boom the current Tommy is not the father and in fact not even related to the Marik family. I can agree this would have shattered a lot of plans for a lot of groups.
The idea that the IS would have gotten the tech for Clan specs doesn't mean they get Clan weapons magically, they would still need to build or retool factories, and that takes time, not an overnight thing. I would say that if they had taken the tech, by 3078 or 3080 we would see the first full run of stuff from IS factories and we would also have seen a lot more of the older stuff upgraded since they would be able to repair and reopen older lines with the new industrial tech.
As for a black market within the Clans, sure Dark Caste would be running it but it would not have IS stuff in it, it would be their home world stuff. Now the IS Clans would have a black-market but that would be a mixed bag and the competing factions with in the under world would still be trying to do what they were doing BEFORE the Clans to took the worlds.
See yet another area the PTB didn't really go into. We never got to see full how the Clans dealt with the crime syndicates in LC worlds or how the Bears or Wolves dealt with the ones on their conquered worlds and would the Dark Caste have followed on the heels of the invasion, all of this was another lost possibility of scenarios and stories for books.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/16/22 03:03 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Commencement of Jihad
The WOB do not want to rule, as Quoted by Saint Conrad Toyama https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Conrad_Toyama
“The truly ambitious do not seize the throne; they push others to do so and then rule from the shadows.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tharkad and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Word_of_Blake
“With the dissolution of the Star League, however, the interpretation of a prophecy that the dominant faction of the Word believed in was destroyed, which provoked them into violence.”
The Prophecy regarding their ascendance concerns spreading Blake’s truth to the rest of the Inner Sphere. They believed that heretical elements had denied them their rightful position as Templars spreading the good word (as prophesied by their Saint) – and in their wrath they went to war to ensure the fulfillment of the prophesy.
Military
– 3058 Militia – 8 divisions
– Conquest of Terra – 10 divisions
– By the beginning of the Jihad in 3067, the Militia is rumoured to contain over 40 divisions …
Quote:
Cybernetics
In this case it means the cyborg.
Quote:
semantics – warships were only used once in the game
Turtle Bay
Palmyra Disaster
As for ComStar and ComGuard – did anyone consider within the First Circuit that their navy should join the either the FC, DC or Rasalhague whist Focht was undertaking a secret mission to the Clans?
Still does not change the fact that a WMD was utilised and the IS Leaders did absolutely nothing to protect their citizens from a future strike.
Quote:
uprisings don’t happen when weapons are supplied to those in oppressive governments.
Can you provide an example?
Where are these weapons coming from? – Home Guards, hidden manufacturing facilities, the House they promised allegiance to, corporations smuggling them in …
As for the Clans – they can fudge the figures whist producing them for their warrior overlords, hidden manufacturing facilities …
Quote:
Masses didn’t rise up to threaten the clan leadership
You do realise that to ensure a successful revolution the revolutionary military must be as well equipped as that of the Clans Military – that is Mechs, Aerospace, Power Armour, and Warships …
Or, all clan scientists change the DNA of all warriors over a three generation period that once activated will either kill them outright with the introduction of a harmless chemical in their food or drink or will turn them into obedient slaves due to being addicted to a chemical that keeps them alive as long as they obey.
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Katherine would not have given any forces to the push to remove the other clans.
Really? … you do realize if she can organise the destruction of both the Falcons and the Wolves (Post Falcon Wolf War) this would make her incredibly popular within the FC and the IS and would also prove to a lock in her desire to be the next First Lord …
And as for her dealings with the Wolves … unless they can her assist her, she really wouldn’t care about destroying them. Also any prisoners can become Bondsman, to her personally, and thus be used against her enemies …
So YAYYYYYYY Katherine is the saviour of the IS …
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Victor did not want to start a civil war
Then who was his doppelganger who was in a FS uniform, in front of a Camera, making a declaration of war against Katherine?
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Katherine was doing everything she could to hurt him
And how many people within the IS know this?
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utilizing task force serpent for his own end
Which would legitimize her position as the Head of the FC, and would ensure that he would not become Precentor Martial when Focht Resigns and would also ensure ant relationship with Omi is now impossible …
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Her treasonous usurping of the throne
Sorry but all legal and above board when Yvonne stepped down for her older sister who is legally 2nd in line for the throne as Victor neither has a wife or a child – though where she did her military service to become the head of the FS might need explaining.
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helping Victor take on the FWL
Er …. Is this the Joshua incident – Operation Guerrero? In 3057 where as the Whitting Conference occurred in 3058 thus by remaining neutral it assisted her cause for First Lord and ensured that Victor could not attain the position.
And this in no way assisted to promote her position as a woman of peace and Victor’s as being treacherous in the same light as a previous Liao.
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What Black Market?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Diamond_Shark#Merchant_Marines
First wave built a trading fleet – 8 Merchant JumpShips
Who undertook commerce with Clan garrisons.
By the Third wave – an additional 6 Merchants were added and were also “trading non-military goods directly with native business …”
It was only later that they agreed to head home due to internal clan warrior politics …
How many re-supply ships visited the IS and how many took home souvenirs of their voyage as most merchant marines do?
So the question is what were they able to smuggle home to the clan home worlds and what do you think they could have got for it with simple barter when they got home – or in the case of vids from the IS how many copies did they make and sell on the black market for goods, just as every enterprising individual would when faced with the prospect of a better life through access to a monopoly of entertainment goods…
So again a real position put up to support a real position!
And as for psy-ops teams – we have them now so why would they become obsolete in the future?
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why the IS didn’t take clan tech
Delusions when it comes to reality?
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Thomas not being Joshua’s Father
And destabilize the IS just as the 2nd SL was being formed? The aim is to form a coalition to fight against the Clans not destroy your only chance before it begins.
Also, in cases like these it is better to put the information to one side, and then use it when you need to ensure compliance when it is needed most.
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FWL and cyborg implants
Toss out the WOB – problem was this was being completed in secret so how would the FWL know?
Victor has no concept of what is to be a father – if he did then he would have realized the utter barbaric act he had committed upon Thomas.
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When the IS gets clan weapons
Depends upon the complexity of the technology – however one to two years post commencement of Invasion sounds about right for mass production to commence and with a complete understanding of all clan tech 2 years after Huntress and them for complete diffusion throughout the IS – 10 years after Huntress.
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crime syndicates
As long as they stay out of sight they would not have any problem what so ever – The Mr Plod of the Clans id more the punch first – rather than displaying any intellect kind of Coppa.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/16/22 11:04 AM
45.51.181.83
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So WOB didn't want to rule, yet the very response shows they did. Ruling from the throne, or directly behind it is the same thing. You give the orders and everyone else follows it. A mouth piece set up to take the blame and be assassinated has been done before.
If you mean cyborg, then say cyborg. Cybernetics covers a lot of things. This is like saying water, but meaning fresh water, not ocean water.
The Palmyra Disaster was long after the 3050 to 3060 time line. As your argument is about the clans using warships during that time, this does not count to that argument. If you want to try, then I guess all the houses that used warships in the game need to be run out. That would leave maybe Comstar left.
How many dictatorships are in the world today? In the game, the CC is one such nation that oppresses their civilians. They have outside forces providing weapons, and yet not many uprisings. The CC provides weapons to rebels, yet the citizens in the FS didn't go into uprisings. All the houses have provided weapons to rebels, yet most don't result in the massive uprisings. Same with the periphery.
And there are nobles that suppress their populations and yet don't result in major uprisings.
You do realize that to ensure a successful revolution the revolutionary military must be as well equipped as that of the Clans Military
So the discussion of uprisings in the clans was pushed, yet this just comes out? Wonder why there aren't going to be uprisings in the clans?
Love that little word. IF. Katherine couldn't do so on her own, and refused to give Victor ANY access to more units, so instead of being the great ruler, she becomes yet another one to fall to greed and self importance. The clans would have been pushed back, and the FC ruler of the IS, had she not been delusional and thought only she could rule. Had she helped Victor, not tried to humiliate him, the FC would be in charge of a new SL, or just be in charge of the IS.
It is very possible, that had Katherine not turned on him, should would have been the power behind the throne.
Well lets see. How many IS people went back to the clan home worlds with the Sharks? Oh yeah. Must have been billions that were all special ops propaganda forces. The only psy ops going on was what Chandy and a few others were doing. Sending luxury goods to pervert the clans. This is canon facts. There was no one going back to preach about freedom, which is what has been pushed. Once Serpent got there, then just talking with the masses, would have shown better results. But there wasn't this push to get agents onto the home worlds to pervert the clans.
Thomas was a replacement. The same thing he accused Victor of. As the story say, Victor was NOT going to allow the replacement to actually get on the throne, unlike the supporters that put Thomas there. Do you know why the rest of the nations allowed Victor to lead the troops? Because they trusted him more then anyone else to do the job and not try to use those forces to attack rival nations.
So the fact Thomas was not Marik, was something that caused the IS to become very unstable. Look at what he did with WOB's Jihad. Removing him would have stopped that, or had started the war that much earlier. But then that was WOBs wanting to rule, not fight the clans.
Did you read the same books everyone else did? The replacement would have 'died' when things calmed down. Everyone knew Joshua was not going to survive his ailment. In all that time, Thomas never tried to see his child. So where is the outrage to that?
The FWL knew what was going on, as the worlds they operated on where having issues with WOB. Thomas told them it was nothing. Hmmm. The leader of WOB covering for them. And yes, I know at the time, the FWL didn't know Thomas was their leader.
Really think the crime syndicates would not show up on the clans radar? Their love for guns would have set off hunts for those that had them. Citizens, with the exception of maybe hunters, would not be allowed to own guns. This is the clans we are talking about. So an assault rifle, smg or some such would draw the clans down upon anyone using such an item. Also, the clans would be looking for smugglers bringing in weapons to arm insurgents. So maybe a rethink of this subject is in order.
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Requiem
05/16/22 04:48 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
So WOB didn’t want to rule, yet the very response shows they did.
Deep sigh … no what they wanted was to fulfill a religious prophesy, in which would expand their religion – and Saint Blake’s Teachings, and to do that they needed the Star League to be reformed. This is why they were returning a warship to Tharkad – as a peace offering to plead with them to once more reform the League …
When rebuffed they could see no other way to fulfill the prophesy but to conquer all Capitols – kill all House Lords and replace them, then rebuild the Star League to ensure the prophesy is fulfilled.
The entire Jihad is to ensure a religious prophesy is fulfilled through the Star League …
And yes I too find the plot very convoluted …
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Cybernetics
You ask for accuracy of cannon writing, then when provided …look at the following site
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manei_Domini within it the term Cybernetics is used describe the enhancements provided. Whereas a more accurate term is Cyborg. I am just utilizing the canon terms provided by TPTB writers – as requested by you, if you desire change may I suggest you take it up with them.
Quote:
Palmyra Disaster
Originally stated there was only use of one Orbital bombardment (period) … where as correct statement ‘one orbital bombardment within the Clan Invasion Period’ ….
Question – How did any of the IS house lords know that this was going to be the only strike as no one was contacted regarding this? Sorry but I stand by my assertion that this is incredibly pitiful writing that produces a wake of absolute stupidity thereafter when it comes to the major character’s development at that point in time.
If you put warships in the game then you need to also place a restriction in the game otherwise everyone will utilize them – much like nukes – they are in the game and sooner or later they will be used as a first strike weapon all the time by some …. So how do you remove this from the game if you don’t like it? Once in then it is too late to stop proliferation …
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dictatorships – and yet not many uprisings
Can I put in … ‘that we know of’, as how many secret organisations and criminal gangs may be working behind the scenes to bring the CC down?
Also, indoctrination process / vast army of secret police / vast number within the population are informers must first be recognised and fixed prior to any uprisings.
And most uprisings require heat and pressure – and the writers have yet to apply this to their story – so we get meh …
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Clan uprisings
The problem is that if you want a clan revolution story the best way to go about it is through the dark caste that has been secretly building a massive military over the past century or two in order to free humanity from the Clans.
And I really cannot see the writers putting this in any time soon … or for that matter the return of Clan Wolverine to free them …
So, unless people write it themselves not going to happen as the writers are way to enamoured with their creation to nerf it any time soon – even of the Clans represent all the darkest, hateful, destructive, repressive part of humanity … i.e. a dystopian nightmare!
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Katherine and the Clans
In all reality the cannon writing is not the best and at that time they believed their pet clan forces could do no wrong and if they did then they could fix it in two seconds flat (rebuilding their numbers from other clans) and the IS would never take advantage of the situation – which is once more as about realistic as a cat flap in a nuclear submarine.
Sorry but once more the writers leave the reservation to, in my opinion, a place that should be, to a place where you just want to bang your head against the wall …
Katherine could never be the power behind the throne, it is just not in her DNA. This is where if you want an evil Katherine in the game – then do it and don’t stuff around with this tepid cannon version. The only person keeping her from the throne is Victor – this is the only person that she needs dead so any assassination plots will automatically centre on him alone!
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psy-ops
How many merchant marines do you know that don’t collect souvenirs / entertainment products ? the answer here is none.
The real issue is not how many IS psy-ops people went to the clan home worlds – it is how many books and Vids went home to the clan home worlds – it is the concept of an idea a vision a hope a dream. Once a new idea has taken root within the people of the clan home worlds then watch the sparks fly … how big is a clan computer and how large are their memories – how many millions of books / vids can be maintained on a single computer?
Then dissemination of ideas throughout Clan home worlds via the black market this is what will start the progression for change ….
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Trusting Victor
Really then what was Marshal Morgan Hasek-Davion doing?
In all reality he was the only one within the story pushed forward to it … in reality if you look at his character closely you will realis he is not that great a warrior and is also a pitifully flawed individual … the only reason he was given the job was he was the son of the fox and people were hoping that the apple did not fall far from the tree …
As for Thomas – he was actually doing a good job in the FWL so why would you create waves that could tip the boat over if don’t have to do so … and removing him would not have stopped the WOBs jihad …
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where is the outrage
In the death of a child where you are not allowed to be there for the passing, when it could have been rectified – he could have been sent home to be with the ones he loved before the end - there will be outrage.
Quote:
Clan crime syndicates
The average Clan Copper is not that bright, most are little better than thugs – so as long as all weapons remain hidden and out of sight no one is really going to go looking for them.
It is all about keeping them hidden until the day the revolution commences …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/16/22 09:18 PM)
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ghostrider
05/16/22 07:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Religious prophecy runs with ruling everything. This runs into the only religion that can be done is the one we are in. All others need to vanish. And once we are all that is left, we make the rules. Sounds like trying to rule it all. Nothing in the history of WOB suggests anything other then becoming the ruling entity of the known galaxy, even the clans. The excuse using the clans was how they were going to gain support until it was too late to stop them.
The problem with cybernetics being used in the posts is that you said the EI implants were not cybernetics.
The argument for the clan invasion to remove warships from the scene said there was two incidences of clan warships bombarding worlds. There was only one bombardment. The Palmyra incident came far after the invasion was over.
Every nation has those that are trying to bring down the current government. Most will never get further then a local shoot out. It will not be the masses uprising.
The only known clan uprising might, and I say might, be considered was the Wolverines. And it wasn't an uprising, so much as the controlling people moving to remove them from a position to start a full uprising, before they knew to.
Sorry. I thought all leaders, according to you, was in the race to be the first lord. How does allowing an effective enemy retain leadership position help that? You praise Katherine for trying to do so, yet not saying Thomas should have been set into a civil war? The entire history of the FS and FWL relationship was spies causing resentment against house Marik in the FWL. Didn't matter if they were good or not. Other leaders were constantly doing the same to all other leaders, with the DC and CC doing it to their own subordinates. Showing Thomas wasn't Thomas, would have given Victor a boost of support from the FC citizens, even with Katherine trying to sabotage his efforts. It may well have cause the FWL to revolt completely against the Marik family. This would have destroyed the WOBs support in the FWL, and maybe even started the Jihad early, or stopped it entirely.
Where in the books did it say Joshua would survive the trip home? Everything I read, says when Victor took over the FC after Katherine assassinated her mother, Joshua would not survive the trip. And it is very doubtful Thomas would have visited New Avalon. But again. Where is the outrage that Thomas never went to see his 'son'?
The use of weapons would bring the searches. They do not have to be seen, but just used. This would cause the clans to do a search, which may include, but not limited to them slowly killing innocent people until the perpetrators are given up/surrender. They would search everything until the weapons are found. Clan troopers are not stupid, they are just not used to dealing with life outside of the clans. There is a difference.
Most people don't check their vehicles for explosive devices, until the get a threat. It is just human nature.
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Requiem
05/16/22 09:17 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Religious prophecy runs with ruling everything
Groan!
Quote:
orbital bombardments
So do you believe that the House leaders were correct?
That is to say – We will allow the Clans to retain their warships, in which they can utilize an orbital bombardment at any time they desire – even on our capitol worlds if they desire – as the use of nuclear armaments is no longer part out defence strategy?
Quote:
insurrection
It comes down to social heat and pressure – the greater of which will inflame the insurrection against the government – however in the Battletech Universe this must transcend worlds.
What occurred with the Wolverines was a long time coming – what it really shows is how cowered the other clans had become … and how they had lost sight of their oaths when they were once apart of the SLDF.
Quote:
how does allowing an effective enemy retain a leadership position help that?
Simply put the era of the Succession Wars are now on hold until the Clans have been dealt with. At this point in time leaders must hide their knives and work together in order to combat the new enemy that is threatening all the IS.
It does not suit anyone if you destabilize the alliance in the interest of personal gain – what this just shows is how deranged a leader you are.
With the removal of the Clans we can then return you to your normal broadcasting station and the Succession wars
can recommence once again.
What is your long term strategy in dethroning Thomas what next?
Who will take the throne – will there be a civil war – how does this help you when you need the FWL to fight the Clans
What if you just sent him a note that said I know who you really are …. Lets have a talk … and then see what compromises you can get out of him to keep you quite. Putting him on leash may be more beneficial in the short term …
Also destabilizing the Alliance only assists the Clans
Also at this stage in history no one even knows that ComStar will split in two and in so doing form the WOB
Quote:
Where in the books did it say Joshua would survive the trip home?
Even with a command circuit in place I doubt he would have survived the trip- however that is not the issue – the issue is that you took action as soon as you knew and you did everything in your power to get him home in time – this is what truly matters here.
Victor allowing him to die alone shows what an utter __________ he truly is.
By asking about the outrage – suggest asking someone who is a father to begin with.
Quote:
The use of weapons would bring searches
So you let them find one or two – is not as if they have the intellect to actually understand that there are multiple vast hordes of weapons that have been established and hidden.
Just finding one or two and they would be happy and then say job well done now lets go and beat someone for the fun of it ….
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Clan troopers are not stupid
Really? – they would stick out so badly wherever they went. They do not have the ability to blend in and their use of language and understanding of how to use local slang words, let alone understand the history of and the importance of local sports teams to blend in when you have to discuss the local game / team members at the pub ….
As for checking for explosives – this comes down to who you are and how paranoid you are ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/16/22 09:19 PM)
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Karagin
05/16/22 09:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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It is clear that we are having a very odd conversation here. Two of us are using canon and pointing out issues, but keeping things grounded in what could be done logically and the other side is playing made-up Fan Fiction to counter everything. That is what I am seeing.
Joshua would not survive the trip home, which is already established. Anything else is fan fiction. My comments on the organized crime on Clan worlds were an attempt to show that some things would go back to normal on many worlds. Or close to it. It was not an invitation to run off on a what-if fan fiction scenario. The Clans would crackdown anytime the crime groups did anything that brought them to any major attention. Even the Dark Caste treads lightly.
WoB wanted to reinvent mankind, they wanted to save it from itself and they wanted revenge on the Hosue Lords for destroying Star League, etc...and they wanted power, the power to remake everything in their twisted version of Blake's ideas. Just like every dictator and crazy prophet has wanted to do since the city-states were formed along the Tigris and other rivers. Dressing up domination in religion doesn't change what it is.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 12:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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We will allow? We do not have a choice. The canon story line had the clans with warships. But the fact that all the houses used bombardments and nukes when the SLDF fell apart, as well as the SLDF and periphery plus Amaris before it finally collapsed tells what is needed to know. In total war, one where the righteous leaders claim that anything done to put them on the throne is alright, follows human psyche. If you want to continue the concept of removing warships from the clans, stop posting on a canon thread and go back to your alts.
The SLDF died when the civil war raged on the pentagon worlds. It did not show the values of the SL, but the hatreds the national divisions had brought forth. At that point, 20 years in the future, when the clans retook those worlds, the last corruption of the SL and SLDF was destroyed. Until the warriors took complete control, it was a decent government. Getting rid of the pride of nationality, and your blood line, removed a lot of what causes wars and civil wars. Now, there is no being from house such and such, which is far superior to the rest.
Remember what you wrote. The era of the succession wars was on hold until the clans were dealt with. Did Katherine get that memo? She was pushing to destroy the FC for her own personal agenda, which was to become first lord. First by breaking up the FC, then plunging it into a civil war. When were the clans dealt with? The invasion was stopped, but the clans were still there. Had she helped Victor, the clans would probably have been removed from the IS entirely.
How did Katherine's grab for power help the IS with the clans? You just made the argument for Katherine being the main issue on why the clans were allowed to stay in the IS.
Thomas sent Joshua to New Avalon, since the kid would not have survived the trip home. But with this, the question of why did they send Joshua to New Avalon? He was dying then. There was no stopping that. All knew it as well. So your statement doesn't make sense.
Yeah. It would have been better to have someone start accusing Victor and the doctors of torturing the child to death. Or allowing him to lie there screaming in pain. What is more gruesome? What is more humane? Why do you pull the plug on a dying person? And Joshua wasn't alone. The doctors and nurses were in the room with him. Or did you miss that part as well?
Do you think the clans would not interrigate the person given up for having the weapons? If they have a live person, they would have gotten the truth out of them. Oh yeah. I guess that answer wasn't thought about.
You equate not blending in with being stupid? Damn, there is so many things that can be said here.
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Requiem
05/17/22 04:57 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Warships
Thus the Clans are allowed to retain warships and the right to commit any atrocities via orbital bombardment with no consequences whatsoever – whist the IS maintained nuclear weapons they were all ‘intimidated’ to use them. They were even not allowed to manufacture PT dropship craft, even though they had the technology to manufacture anti-warship weapons.
Now can anyone justify the war crime and complete lack of retaliation?
This is perhaps one of the worst scenarios ever created.
Where is - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ares_Conventions
Quote:
The SLDF died when the civil war raged on the Pentagon Worlds.
Sorry to burst your bubble – The Clans killed off the SLDF the day not one other clan stood up for Clan Wolverine and were cowered into submission by Niki. This is the day they betrayed everything their former oaths to SLDF stood for.
From this day on they collaborated with evil to form one of the most despotic cultures known to man!
Now, there is no being from house such and such. Now, there is being from Clan such and such, which is far superior to the rest.
Quote:
did Katherine get that memo
Yes this is true, she would be the only one to try to become the new First Lord for life if elected. Realistically, however, even if she was elected as First Lord could she have held it post her term of office – as there should be safeguards in place (and yet no one ever considered to put them in place)?
As we have seen with warships if only used / attempted once – no harm no foul.
Let’s get this straight it was Victors pitiful display of leadership that brough the breaking up of the FC and it was Victor, not Katherine, who plunged them into Civil War.
If given a free reign post Falcon / Wolf War – given her Machiavellian tendencies – she most certainly would have killed off both!
How did Victor’s grab for revenge help the IS with the Clans? You just made the argument for Victor being the main issue on why the Clans were allowed to stay in the IS.
Quote:
Thomas sent Joshua to New Avalon
With the hope they may give him a few more years of life.
Quote:
Joshua wasn’t alone
Where is his family and those who love him?
Quote:
interrogation
Yes, sooner or later everyone finally gives in to the pain – however this is not what is important – what is important is the time you can hold out. The time that allows your compatriots to go to ground – to re-hide all weapons caches that are known by this captured individual … this is what is important!
Quote:
intelligence operative
What is important for an agent to succeed, what characteristics are required to succeed in their mission?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/17/22 09:20 AM
70.118.172.64
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Warships are moot points, and no one had enough to do anything stunning with them. They are a fleet in being only stage. Oh, look, I have ten warships, and you have 12; well, I also have five more fighter wings, so it equals out. Warships aren't going to win a war, and they are there to tie up resources and look suitable for the media. I am willing to bet that sitting in one or more of the star systems that make up each house's holdings, they each had one or two mothballed warships from back around the end of the First War or Second. And those would have been brought back to life once warship production became viable again or used as tech specs for production.
The Clans had their own warships; HOWEVER (note the comma), the majority were NOT new builds; they were modified SL ships. So the shock and awe of warships died off fast. Note we didn't see the Inner Sphere powers surrender the second it was made clear that the Clans had warships. Also, your arguments against them are not based on any logical point. If you do not like them, don't use them in your group.
Katherine was playing a game that she didn't fully understand. She was playing at divine right to rule. She wanted power and thought that alone meant she could lead. She didn't care about anything other than her petty, childish wants. Katherine also didn't understand the Clans and wanted to treat them like another Inner Sphere power, hence her asinine capture by Vlad when she jumped into Clan Space.
Joshua was sent to New Avalon because Hanse said that NAIS could help with his cancer, possibly treat it, or keep it from killing him faster. This was done so our imposter would make weapons and tech for the other powers facing the Clan threat. This all happen BEFORE the Battle of Luithen. If I recall, he had childhood leukemia. As for why Imposter Tommy didn't go see him, the reason will be legend, but he didn't, which is part of the point. The double wouldn't have fully worked if he had.
On the pain points, I will say Requiem has never seen what leukemia does to a person and how treats help manage all that. The child was a plot point, and he was there to give TPTB something else for Victor to mishandle and screw up all so he could learn from it. Push Victor out of Daddy's shadow and daddy's games.
Yes, the Clans would have interrogated anyone captured with weapons, and they would have found out who else had them and where they got them just because some of the writers chose to show the Clans at times as different versions of Sgt. Schultz and Colonel Klink should not be considered the norm. Bad tropes and such by writers show a lack of wanting to give us believable main characters. Like we are lead to believe that every Intell agency bar WolfNet missed the whole build-up of the WoB or if they noticed the excuse given was the Clans were a bigger deal. Having worked with both Military Intelligence officers and enlisted and some from that three-letter agency, I can tell you that they don't miss a lot, and getting the boss to listen might be the issue. Still, the info is briefed and followed upon. The Houses and ComStar knew; they chose not to worry about it. And the point is some would have acted or at least had something in place to mitigate things.
Requiem, please do us all a favor, go read the novels again, go read the sourcebooks again. Also, please stop throwing your fan fiction in as facts. That is not debating in good faith with the rest of us. You change your stance with your own fiction every time we counter it, which ends up not making any sense. Now, if you are trying to use these boards as your sounding board for ideas to be refined and such, then tell us that. Tell us that you want to debate your fan fiction and then see if anyone will. Even when I have offered examples of fan fiction it was done so to prove a point, like there was no need for the WoB to go from crazy group to superpower to get the same set of events to weaken all the powers in the Inner Sphere. Never did I say hey this is what happen, it was a single example explained, and then we moved on. You don't do that. You keep trying to re-write canon to suit what you want. Not how it works. If you want that, then please go write your own settings and give us that, then you would have your ideas as canon.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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This is not the alt. Get that thru your head. As yet again, this is a discussion about canon. The same tired talking points keep coming back up, again and again and again. Go back to keeping out of conversations if you can't distinguish alt from canon.
The clans had warships. The IS had warships. The game has had, and used warships since everyone was on Terra. In the future, they will have warships. I don't see the outcry for Kentares. Or all those worlds nuked in the first two wars. Maybe the assassination of entire villages/cities.
Where is the Ares Conventions? Isn't that the big rules of war that the SL abandoned shortly after it ratified it? So the great SL make using nukes legal again?
The Wolverines refused to conform to the governmental model agreed by all 800 that removed the civil war combatants, then formed a new government. Technically, those that refused were traitors to the government change. Given the changes were extreme, I can see most then a few resisting. Those that did not like the change, could have left before the strike.
But the SL died when the civil war happened. The full devastation of the civil war was against the entire concept of the SLDF. Everything was a target. It is surprising that the pentagon worlds were livable when it ended.
The use of chemical warfare during the St. Ives reclamation was used on multiple worlds. No outcry here?
Poisons used in the 4th war, and still nothing?
As stated before, the only reason why the clans warships are a problem is because they hurt the FC. How about an outcry that Comstar did not use their warships to stop the clans from using theirs? The fact that they were never used like that again, until the IS started doing it says alot.
Where did it say she would be voted in for life? Had she been elected, there would have been another succession war, with all states attacking the LC/LA to remove her. There was a safe guard. Only 4 years, then a new person. Not sure how you missed that. She would never have been able to change that without going to war. Sounds like she was trying to be the next Amaris.
Had her greed to seize power not taken hold, the FC would have remained together, making it that much easier to remove the clans from FC space, and probably helping the FRR. This would have forced the DC to help with the FRR or risk losing political clout with them.
Might need to drop the looking glass. Victor made mistakes, but that isn't what destroyed the FC. It was Katherine and her grab for power. That is how the developers wanted it. Victor left it alone to run the Comguard. If not for Katherine's petty side, she may well have kept the FC together, but no. She had to punish all that upset her.
But that doesn't seem to register, as it is canon, and not alt.
Read the rest of that statement.
Thomas sent Joshua to New Avalon, since the kid would not have survived the trip home. But with this, the question of why did they send Joshua to New Avalon? He was dying then. There was no stopping that.
This, in itself, caused an issue. The jumps to New Avalon should have killed him, had he been that bad. Sending him home after being on New Avalon for years would definitely kill him.
And your question of where his family was? Really? They were all in the FWL. There was no way to get them to New Avalon in time. The command circuits only work when they have been set up before hand. There is on way they would have been sitting there during the entire time, so don't even try that one.
Did you not read when they had Phelan being interrogated? They used chemicals like a truth serum. They did not pull out finger nails or shove spikes into his body. Giving in wasn't an option.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 12:13 PM
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The subject of Wolfnet is something that should be addressed again.
The clans supposedly had no real dealings with that sort of work in 200 years, yet they were better then the IS networks which were in use since before humans left Terra.
And somehow, the rest of the clans were not able to use intel gathering?
As stated before, they had to be trueborns, as the clans would not allow freeborns to run loose in the IS. It can be argued that they were freeborns trained from birth, so loyalty might be there.
But the fact that the agents did things completely against the trueborn values, they could not be trained in the open.
It was said Goliath Scorpion had trained the Dragoons commandos. Yet that did not cause issues with the other clans, that Scorpion had and used the information in order to keep it updated?
And any clanner would be hard pressed to blend into the IS before the end of the invasion, including the Dragoons themselves. They had weird ways of doing things, but they were not trained for dealing with the public like a normal IS citizen. The story of having to leave equipment in the Periphery, because past intel runs didn't spot the fact that some mechs, much less the huge warships, were not active in the IS says something.
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Karagin
05/17/22 05:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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If recalling the Dragoons had a lot of time working with the Merchant Caste as well as the Scoprions training. Also, they went with loyal-ish Freebirths with the idea that their DNA would be added to the gene banks if things went well. Cake method here. Also, the Dragoons sent out a recon team ahead of their main force, so they had a general idea of things and still, they raised alarms and continued to be the subject of a lot of eyes on them. So their intel had to be spot on, mainly to keep their secrets and to make sure they knew what they are facing.
The Clans broke a lot of their own rules, but they didn't make a fuss because they knew the others were as well. Only major breaches like the Wolverines and a few others did things go completely pear-shaped.
As I said before, Treaties are only worth their ability to be enforced, and normally they are void before the ink is dry on the first signature. A prime example is the Ottawa Treaty, which bans the use of cluster munitions and FASCAM weapons systems. Great idea, so great in fact that BOTH United States and Russia REFUSED to sign it or even honor it. And many other nations refused as well. Yet many have cried foul of late over the use of these weapons and then get mad when the facts are given out on who DIDN'T sign it.
So the Ares Convention does NOT apply to the Clans, they don't have to follow, and as pointed out for like 20th time, the Star League violated numerous times during its hay day. Warships are not going away, the concept is part of the game, no one had a fleet that really mattered beyond being a resource hog to have to compete against. The reason they are not around is that they took the spotlight off the Mechs, the same reasons vehicles are still nerfed to high hell and beyond. Also, warships are far more able to be munchkin and min-maxed to the point they are useless as far fungoes. There are several PRIME examples of that being done in the design and aerospace section here on the boards. Now Requiem I am not sure why you will not listen when we point out that your fan-fiction-based counterpoints are not even worth entering into the discussion, yet you continue to do so, why? Do you think that if you keep tellings us about them we will start to take them as canon? Or is it that you want us to proof your alternate and fix your loopholes and shortfalls for you as free editors? I am starting to believe that is indeed the case.
Joshua was a plot point for Victor, nothing more. Anything else as to why his family didn't come to visit is clearly a misunderstanding of that plot point and shows you have not read the Kerensky Heritage books at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/17/22 09:21 PM
45.51.181.83
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The point with Wolfnet, is they were better then even ROM. ROM has been refining their abilities since before the fall of the SL. The clans supposedly did away with such actions. That is not saying that they didn't have their little secrets, or that another caste, like the scientists, didn't keep the art of spying alive. But going from the clan environment to the IS could not have been that easy to master in that short of time. So either the clan information on the spies is wrong, or the lack of how long the clans were spying on the IS was off.
I can understand that the clans spies would have access to special codes for the HPG networks, that were in there since the SL ran them, but some of the intel required actual infiltration of things, such as physically getting into rooms.
A lot of treaties throughout human history, has had most tossed as soon as one side was bound by it, preventing them from promoting their greed. This is not saying all treaties were tossed.
I believe Karagin is right about pushing the alt so much, that some will think it is canon. I don't see the alt getting many responses except for that stupid moron Ghostrider. And that tends to be when something extremely out there shows up.
Now. The question I had before about LRMs. Why didn't the IS shorten the minimum range on them? Also, is the timing mechanism on them set in the launcher, or is it set in the factory that makes them? Given how many times depots are raided and nothing is said about the LRMs being reprogrammed, I would think the launchers set the time/range.
If so, why did no one every program it them to explode sooner?
And before the flatter arc of the clan launchers is used, that fact should mean they can't IDF or reach maximum range.
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Karagin
05/17/22 09:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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I have wondered about the LRMs for a while, better ammo should have meant that they could have armed the warheads sooner or with a booster and gotten longer ranges off the existing launchers with the price paid on the ammo side. Logical upgrades and updates to existing tech never seemed to be at the forefront for the powers that be. We had an entire Tactical Handbook and Unbound with systems that should have matured into things. One-Shot Thunderbolts would have been nice to see get more attention. Things that made some sense, instead we got silly junk, that was like someone wanted to mix WH40K crap in. Chainsaws, buzzsaws, Mech Tazers, etc...stuff that didn't belong out on the actual battlefield but on Solaris but wait, the Click-Tech crap was the new thing, it was the new version of the future of the game!
And the only future it gave the game was a further division of the fan base and bad plots and storylines. We should have seen the LRMs get something better than E-LRMs, they had given us plenty of cool warheads, those made sense, yet nothing was done for the launcher itself. We can get hundreds of new mechs, but nothing really amazing done for the tech, Wait, what's that you say? Game Balance would be broken? And yet adding in chainsaw and acid spray and a Tazer for mechs doesn't; mess up the balance? Nail guns don't? "Special Named Character Mechs" don't cause issues? The mech is NO different other than it's being piloted by a character, but yet that translates into special features or abilities for the mech, and then you allow the fans to run these by making the things to go collect.
Oh, but Karagin, we have design quirks and such to balance them out. Right design quirks...let's go back a bit to the Original TRO3025 and the Javelin mech, In the fluff for that mech this is a design quirk right there telling you what hampers it, and the thing is NOBODY used it.
Well, we have Tech Ratings now, so that further balances things, nope sorry it doesn't, all that does is add more confusion and gives the power gamers and rules lawyers the chance to ruin the fun of the game.
Oh, oh...you are just made because of BV2 and how it makes for balanced games and gives the IS numerical advantages...let me cut that off right here, the first thing BV2 is flawed, it can be min-maxed very easily and makes things very lopsided. It favors mechs with big guns to speed up the fighting so you don't have long fights, you have different flavors of gunslingers matches not real battles.
Long before that silly system, I saw IS players regular beat players running Clan tech and not a 2 to 1 mech ratio, but lance on stars, similar weight ranges. Saw players actually know the mechs, knew the weapons ranges, and knew how to use the maps and the terrain to win. Now if it's not favored to one side well folks complain that it's not fair to the Inner Sphere.
The Inner Sphere autocannons, those should have either gotten an overhaul and we see the AC2 and AC5 have their minimums cut down or removed, but no, we didn't we got other ACs and new ammo types that only work in the older autocannons. We have had this chat before, and given how no one can really agree on how each class works, hell we say a poorly written article here on Sarna that claimed Autocaons were artillery weapons, total crap, but it was pushed fandom wide and further muddied the water, how Nic allowed that I don't understand.
At one point the game had a lot that could be done for it, lots of plot lines to follow and run, hell it still has a lot of loose ends to tie up that got left hanging in the 3025 to 3067 timeline, but the second the gears shifted to the WoB/Click-tech timeline it all became something wearing the Battletech name.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 02:13 AM
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That still doesn't answer if the ammo, or the launcher decides when the LRMs become hot. I believe it is important, as stated about raiding each others ammo depots. They do the same damage and have the same range. The fluff for the clan launchers is the flatter arc, but what magic trick changes the arming range from the mech?
Yeah. Ac weights were discussed. Granted, I don't know if TPTB got any input or just ignored it all. I can see this boiling down to not logic, but keeping vehicles nerfed. No heat when fired from vehicle argument. If they lessened or removed the heat from mechs, you would see a lot more mechs using ACs. Or put the heat in the vehicles, which would require a whole new data sheet on all of them. Missiles being the same way.
Game balance being broken is harsh, given the Jihad line put out. Naval weapons caused issues, but even with the difficulty in targeting ground targets, it sort of removed facing counter fire when destroying fortresses, as you could hit them from orbit. Which may well be why TPTB didn't want them on dropships. The thought came to me typing this, that warships are not likely to far into players hands, but fitting naval weapons on dropships, which they can get, would cause issues. Do I care that is would take 100 shots to hit a fortress with a spotter? As long as the enemy doesn't send out someone to kill the spotter, no. I will kill the enemy without any chance of return damage. And we know players that would do this constantly. The thought does have me wanting to try.
But then the developers were pushing for imbalance with the story line that kept the SL weapons out of CC hands. They were already hurting from the 4th war, then everyone else, including periphery states and pirates, were getting some upgraded weapons and equipment. But we don't talk about things like that.
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Requiem
05/18/22 07:07 AM
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Warships are moot points
Really? The largest gun on the battlefield is now a moot point as they do not win wars?
Then what was Palmyra? How many worlds have been lost due to orbital bombardment throughout all the wars?
This is a space opera in which everyone travels on the Black Sea or has everyone forgotten Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves – Then why has the US have such a sizeable Navy – the extrapolation of this logic point should still be considered.
As whomever has the largest Navy wins, it is just that simple! – consider the SLDF Navy why did they have so many vessels if they are just a moot point?
Any build up of forces on any world an the decision is made to sterilize the area!
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Katherine
Sorry but she is one of the very few who understood in my opinion) what the leavers of power were and how to use them – thus she is one of the few who were ‘actually written’ with a degree of reality.
Yes, I do agree the incident with Vlad was inept. But what else can you expect from the writers of an invasion where the entire story lurches from one inept point to the next.
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Joshua
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Joshua_Marik
leukemia – suggest looking at today’s survival rates.
So let us now consider what was in the history and was never considered.
Joshua’s ‘father’ was seriously injured during an assassination attempt and was sent to a ComStar hidden medical facility – where he received his cyborg implants. Where as his ‘father’ was replaced with another so as to rule the FWL.
Question – did anyone ever ask ComStar to cure Joshua at this hidden Medical Facility – and if not why didn’t Marik threaten them at this point in time?
Joshua died in 3057 – so can I ask one more simple question – As it is known that the Clans Medical Personnel and Facilities are more advanced than that of the Inner Sphere why was there never a Special Operations by either the FC or the FWL to acquire these from the Clans ie a Medical dropship, Jump-ship etc and thus use Clan Tech to save Joshua or was this just too difficult to consider or implement into the inept story?
Also The Star League Medical Facility owned by Snord’s Irregulars – why didn’t they provide assistance given who Joshua was …
Also Wolf’s Dragoons Jaime Wolf called for the conference on Outreach in 3051 and outed themselves as Clan – what Clan Medical facilities did he have access to – as they also denied to provide to the FWL and Joshua medical aid … and rather than the Dragoons assisting only Hanse offered assistance … If they were so concerned with the safety of the IS why didn’t they assist?
So lets get this straight the entire medial situation is once more incredibly badly written plot lines from beginning to end … that never considers any of the hard questions that should be asked …
Also with the outing of the Fake Marik why didn’t Victor ask the hard questions as to medical facilities etc as to the assassination attempt upon the real – why was this never considered asked and investigated – or didn’t anyone want to even consider this when it came up?
So can I ask why others have not asked these questions?
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The Clans had warships the IS had warships
Really? Then please do provide details of all warships circa 3050 for the following:
Federated Commonwealth
Draconis Combine
Rasalhague
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Ares Conventions
Opinion was used – as the game needs something like these conventions in order to keep the game sane otherwise you will always end the game in a Nuclear holocaust or Palmyra.
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Wolverines
You complain that I do not read the books – then can I please suggest the same from you.
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The use of chemical warfare during the St. Ives reclamation
Such as https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wei and the Death Commandos ?
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… the only reason why the clans warships are a problem is because they hurt the FC …
And here I thought that Turtle Bay was in DC space …
Question – Circa 3050 - 51 did any other House know that ComStar was in the possession of warships?
As if they didn’t then how can this be a factor in the discussion?
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where did it say she would be voted in for life?
It didn’t, it said, if you read the books, that she was looking for a means of how to accomplish this when she was voted in as First Lord. There were rules, however, she was always looking at how to exploit them for her benefit.
Also it is a lords duty to correct their retainers when they stray.
Quote:
Had her greed to seize power not taken hold the FC would have remained together, making it that much easier to remove the clans from FC space …
Clan Invasion commenced 3050
- October 3050 Leo Showers Killed – Operation Revival Halted – Year of Peace until November 3051
– September 3057 – Katherine uses the Emergency War Powers to secede the Lyran half of the FC.
Thus for the first seven years of the Clan Invasion, including the year of peace, this statement is how relevant? Ans - not at all and is of no relevance whatsoever.
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Victor made mistakes, but that isn’t what destroyed the FC. It was Katherine and her grab for power
Sorry to burst you bubble but in reality it was Victor’s incompetence – if he wasn’t incompetent there would not have been a reason for Katherine to assume control…
Quote:
command circuit
How long does it take to establish? This is the questin that should be asked …
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Phelan being interrogated
Have you read how the Gestapo in Paris used their interrogations? Or how about the NKVD in Russia?
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Wolfnet … they were better than the IS networks
Once again read betrayal of ideals as to the creation of Wolfnet.
Also there are two types of spies when it comes to this – those within Wolf’s Dragoons and those in Clan Wolf – and this in Clan Wolf were practically useless when it came to infiltration …
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They would not allow freeborn to run loose
True, letting slaves run loose is a little strange.
Question – how can there be a treaty violation if you never signed the treaty to begin with?
Also have a read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/18/22 07:09 AM)
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ghostrider
05/18/22 11:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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Palmyra was NOT a clan use of dropships, though the initial statement made it sound like it was. So again, the clans only used orbital bombardment once.
The navy was large as it was the only way to get from one continent to another. If dropships were available to us, then the wet navy would drop dramatically. Air force would be what rules combat, though you still need infantry to secure areas.
More leaders then Katherine knew how to use politics. Katherine was just one of those that used it to punish others to soothe her ego. If nothing else, she was an agent of Amaris, but slowly strangling freedoms of others to increase her personal ego and power.
Survival rate report does NOT include the stress of jumping thru Hyperspace.
Now for someone to ask Comstar about hidden facilities, they would have to KNOW about them, so that is answered.
WOB knew about them, and since they held Terra, should have done something. They didn't.
As Joshua was the fake Thomas's son, WOB had a vested interest to letting the boy suffer from his disease. It was a collar to make sure the fake Thomas stayed on target. Isis, being the child of the real Thomas, should have inherited the throne, which brings up a point on why Victor should have exposed the fake Thomas. He was NOT a Marik, so the ruling line would have been changed. Remember this when barking about Adam.
One question about clan medical ships. Did they even have one? I think the only bays they used might have remain from when they upgraded regular ships, like the Overlord. I have not even heard of a reference to a medical ship.
Oh? So not specifying when in the time line, there are issues? The IS had warships before the 2nd war ended, and after the truce started with the invasion.
The reason why the SL had so many warships was the size of area they were covering. They also were the prime protection force for the IS.
Do you think some paper will stop the use of things like bombardments? No one to enforce punishment on others, so no. A piece of paper will not stop it. This has been explained before. To punish those using them normally means using them to take out the guilty. The succession wars have done little to coming close to removing leaders, so how do you punish a violator? Since the SL fell, they have all been trying to punish each other. Ganging up on the violator? Do you really think one house is going to allow a hostile neighbor to send a large force thru their terrority in order to attack a violator?
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ghostrider
05/18/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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Did Comstar aid the clans in their invasion? Would Comstar have used their warships to hinder the IS? Most of the IS didn't know Comstar had mechs until the start of the 4th war, and even then, it was only a small few. That information wasn't even passed on to the leaders of the realms. So it is likely some knew, just not the masses. Hard to hide a fleet of ships like that.
When was Katherine voted in to the First Lord position?
Oh yeah. More alt put up as canon fact.
So what was all that maneuvering done to start pushing the separation of the FC? Oh yeah. She was manipulating things to create incidences that made Victor look bad, including assassinating her mother, and blaming Victor for it. Yeah. Nothing to see here..
Anything someone disagrees with can be made into a reason for revolt. Some are just more forceful then others.
And yet, didn't Kathrine participate in attack the LA once Vlad took her? Not just behind the scenes taking out the nation that borne her, but actually fighting them?
It isn't instant. A command circuit needs to have the ships in position and charged to work. And most commercial jumpship captains will not sit around waiting, as it cuts into their ability to make money.
Again, the interrogation methods used by the clans were printed. There was no need to rip out finger nails and such. It was more effective then the pain method. So the statement of old methods is invalid.
The point is ALL of the spies came from the clans. For Wolfnet to be better then the IS spies, shows something is completely off with the clans lack of skills in that area. Or did Wolf's Dragoons get their spies from elsewhere? Wolfnet was up and running before the Dragoons entered the IS. So given the idea that only parts of the route were given to ships as they traveld the Exodus Road, that would mean they would have been sent long before the Dragoons were sent. They operated in all nations, not just the FS.
The concept that a single trueborn could prevent the freeborns from running seemed to be the solution. Natasha Kerensky was the only trueborn to go with the Dragoons. Yet there is no way to stop all defections. Technically Snord and his group was a defection even before the Recall order was given.
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Karagin
05/18/22 12:04 PM
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Palmyra? Are we talking about the 3144 Dark Age silliness and somehow having it mixed up for a different event? I can find no other planet or reference to this for any Clan action. Is this another one of his Alts?
Katherine thought it was all a game, where your side was good, and everyone else was bad. She didn't understand the leaves of the game and thus while she could play, it wasn't on the same level as the others.
The real Thomas Marik didn't care about his kids, he was too far gone into revenge and madness for that. The fake Thomas Marik was more of a father and ruler. Now Victor could have exposed things, but again recall Victor was worried about the Clans NOT Marik. WoB had their puppet anything would have been over playing their hand. They weren't about to help Joshua unless it was a boon for them or they needed a card played.
The Clan medical system has not been fully explained as far as battlefield use. Vague would be the best offering.
The Houses had warships after the 2nd War ended, yes, however, it was harder to keep them in repair, the cost of manning them was not something they wanted to deal with and the loss of any remaining ones took said warship as a defensive system out of the picture and that means they would not risk what few remained. Also, there were plenty of wreaks in different systems that would have been always a salvagers' wet dream to go over looking for something to sell.
This idea of his that a treaty is going to be enforced during a war if it's going hamper one side's ability to win is insane. Treaties are products of peace, they are mainly to make it look like the politicians are doing something vs their normal nothing. The Houses threw the rules out the window and then went and got them when they need a moral victory to make it look like they lost a battle because oh look those evil Kuritians used an evil nuke or those evil Fed-rats used an assassination team to kill our leader...then the treaties are used to justify what ever the upset House leader does. So the Ares Treaty only sounds good on paper is ignored by the Houses. Mercs will honor it because their men and machines are accountable items not expendable items. Not sure why you can't accept that the Ares Treaty is non-item and has been since it was written.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 01:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. Palmyra came up while talking about the clans use of bombardments during the invasion. More out of time things to suggest that warships were the great evil. The issue looks to be that they were evil because his favorite nation didn't have them, so they didn't conquer all immediately.
It is correct Victor was more worried about the clans. The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas, would have been to show the entire IS that the FWL was already being taken over by an imposter, removing a chunk of the motives for the war created by Joshua's passing. Yes, I do understand that a civil war in the FWL would have been horrible for the IS defense as all refits would stop flowing from the FWL.
The exposure would have also shown Katherine in a bad light as well, since she would have been seen supporting the imposter trying to take over the FWL. WOB would have been brought into the spotlight with this as well, since someone with the power, had to be helping the fake take the throne.
In the end, it probably would have caused the IS to lose even more systems, until Comstar got it's crap right.
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Requiem
05/18/22 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Survival rate report does NOT include the stress of jumping thru Hyperspace.
Now for someone to ask Comstar about hidden facilities, they would have to KNOW about them, so that is answered.
WOB knew about them, and since they held Terra, should have done something. They didn't.
As Joshua was the fake Thomas's son, WOB had a vested interest to letting the boy suffer from his disease. It was a collar to make sure the fake Thomas stayed on target. Isis, being the child of the real Thomas, should have inherited the throne, which brings up a point on why Victor should have exposed the fake Thomas. He was NOT a Marik, so the ruling line would have been changed. Remember this when barking about Adam.
One question about clan medical ships. Did they even have one? I think the only bays they used might have remain from when they upgraded regular ships, like the Overlord. I have not even heard of a reference to a medical ship.
1. Joshua was jumping between stars in 3051 (died 3057) thus jumping between the stars was acceptable circa 3051 and 3052 when WOB entered the FWL.
2. Both his real Father and his Fake Father both knew about the hidden ComStar Facility – thus as you put it “so that is answered” – is no longer valid.
3. WOB did not exist until 3052 – thus how can they be of any relevance pre this date – and as for stating it is to make sure the fake Thomas stays on target – this only works if you suggest if he is a good boy will give your son Joshua the cure.
Also WOB has control of this Medical Facility as how else do you explain how their shadow military received their Cyborg implants? (as the Real Thomas also has Cyborg Implants)
Also WOB is being sheltered by Thomas in the FWL – and are receiving money to keep them afloat (which we find out later is at 15%) – thus a little quid pro quo would have gone along way here – I shelter you, give you money now fix my son!
4. This is a war zone thus the idea that there are no clan medial ships becomes ludicrous – and the idea that they were never considered demonstrates ineptitude beyond the pale – or are all injured clan warriors, who can no longer fight, just killed off as a mercy killing at this stage?
Also what about Snord and also Wolf’s Dragoons?
Thus can we please think this through using logic?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/18/22 06:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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Okay on the Palmyra thing, I get it now. Warships are a tool, in reality, they are a force projection and resource hog, on the battlefield (space or ground) they have limited use, either they are bashing in their counterparts just like mechs do, or they are artillery on a grander scale. Then they have the added bonus of being a deterrent to fighting. Oh, you pushed us off the planet, okay cool. You know that factory you fought to keep us from, gone...oh you are willing to surrender now versus us using an orbital bombardment on it, okay even better.
Now, where have I seen that used in the game and other science fiction writing? Oh, that's right it has been done that in many settings. Guess being widely read and having an understanding of how weapons systems/units would and could be used helps as well.
All Victor got by exposing the fake Thomas was an FWL Civil War, and a lessening of anything Sunny tried to do. It would mean he couldn't go after the St. Ives compact as easily. And it would put a lot of those Houses into major panic mode since wait could ComStar/WoB have done this in their own family as well? That would have been the bigger blow-up and it could be suggested that Katherine was an imposter given how she was acting contrary to the expectations of the Steiner-Davion bloodline should be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 08:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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I mean, yeah. We went for a cross country trip, but how were we supposed to know he would be worse in the future, when we tried again?
Does that sound about right?
What happens to people as a disease like that progresses? OH yeah. They can't do things they did before. But since you don't play a doctor on TV, you don't know about this.
Both knew, and yet what happened? They were turned down. Did he raise a stink about it? No, as that would show the rest of the IS, Comstar and WOB had hidden worlds. So no. People didn't know about it. As a side note, it is amazing that no one ran blood work against the fake and his son. This would have told everyone of the fake. Comstar knew about the fake Thomas, as they had the real one still in their care.
Actually, yes. WOB had better medical facilities then New Avalon had. They had better medical tech as well.
The clans have the win or die attitude. Why have medical bays when this is about all the know? So they would not have medical ships. Medbays in existing ships would probably still be there, but not improved tech.
What logic? The fake, not understanding the clans in canon logic? The one pushed so hard by someone who stated they did not understand it? Or the fact that the clans sent in units that were frowned upon from early in their inception, was better then the IS, including ROM? The clans thought a single trueborn would prevent the entire Dragoons from bolting as soon as they got into the IS. The fact that Snord did leave the Dragoons shortly after entering the IS shows that Natasha couldn't keep them all in line. Snord was running intel operations that beat out the best IS spy agencies. Something is wrong with this picture.
So yeah. What logic is going to be used? The one that runs with the canon story? Or the one that has done whatever it could to twist the entire canon story to fit their vision?
Do you see why most go with canon?
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ghostrider
05/18/22 09:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Wow. You mean someone didn't assassinate Katherine the moment she tried to break up the FC? That happens in my alt, so therefore it must be how things have to go.
The fact that Katherine assassinated her mother in the story line should have been enough to remove her from the throne, as it was killing the one effective ruler right after Hanse died. The one person that would have prevented Victor from making those mistakes, as well as teaching him how to avoid them entirely. So oooops. Katherine destroyed the entire FCs future with this one action, then continued to make sure it couldn't recover by the rest of her actions.
The fact that the entire history since including the fall of the SL had warships bombarding worlds. They were required to protect convoys as well as fight the enemy. Except for one commander, the clans tended to stop using warships in a fight after the enemy's space forces were defeated. The history suggested they tended to avoid the warship battles as well. They were used as a psycological safety blanket.
So with the last use of warships recorded being the time they tried to wipe out the Wolverines, until Turtle Bay, they used them far less then the IS did.
There are a few more things that could have happened with exposing Thomas. The fact he had to have powerful people backing up his taking over would come to light. Wether it lead to answers or not is the big question there. Given the fact Max Liao had done so before hand, would really set off a major panic wave. One outcome could have ended with the IS falling, as everyone tried to rise up to fill in the gaps by the imposters. Another would have had Comstar answer for assisting the clans, as their duplicity would come out.
There is a whole line of other things in between that could have happened.
But as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
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Karagin
05/18/22 09:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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First, the fake Thomas, was not really playing the game ComStar or WoB wanted to be played, not after the Clans showed up, and with improvements to the FWL economy from the weapons deals, etc...yeah was doing ten times better than the "real" Mariks had done in close to 100 years. So anyone trying to prove anything would have been stopped first by SAFE and then by ROM (both of them), now why they didn't stop Jousha's trip to New Avalon well, I am willing to bet that wrinkle wasn't something ComStar could stop since it would have tipped their hand. After the Schism, well WoB could have tried, and it would have been smarter for them, but wait we know that prior to their sudden out of now where Sith-like ability to do things, they had no real support beyond their "Thomas" and needed him, so hurting Jousha, well that would be bad for them.
We know the Clans have medical sections, they told Focht they could have regrown his eye if they had been there when it happened, that's pretty advanced, and oh look we never see anything about it mentioned again. Another dropped plot idea or story point.
The Dragoons broke ties way before their orders changed, they had already seen that there was hope in the Inner Sphere and that things weren't as bad as they had been led to believe. Natasha had found love with Jamie's brother Jousha and they had their future plans. So the Dragoons bolting I think was kind of planned from the start. Snord just being one crack and then the armor while still good had other kinks. Once the Clan Wolf Khan Ward told the Dragoons NOT to report back and to start prepping for an attack, Natasha made up her mind that she would go back to make sure the Dragoons weren't wiped out genetically, too bad the current take with Alric is that he doesn't know the facts himself.
As I said before the risk of imposters would cause a lot of issues, and it would also be the perfect chance for WoB among others, to cause the chaos that would have allowed their stunt of taking over the Inner Sphere to work better. And Katherine should have been arrested for Treason the second she pulled her coup with the LC side of the Fed-Com, but that would have been a boring story, and then no massive sales of TROs and novels, can't have that.
Yes all guesses, based on what we know and can see, no alts, just ideas, that lend to a discussion on things and give us a chance to see the events from all angles, kind of like how it should be, we should see the events from all sides.
What if-ing and speculating as to what could have happened is fun, and the whole point is to use the canon to prove how the change could happen, not just rewrite it just because. Here is crappy way of rewriting things in 2766 while Jerome Blake was on holiday, a hit squad sent by Amaris murdered him and his family while making it look like an accident with the gas line at their holiday home.
Or even crappier...in 2766 Blake slipped on a bar of body soap in the refresher, falling, breaking his neck, thus ComStar is never founded, not like we know it, and their no neutral group to save Terra after the SLDF leaves etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/18/22 11:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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To suggest WOB only sprung up after the declaration of moving beyond the religious facade is like saying Katherine only decided to destroy her brother when he refused to give her some avocado toast. They were set up long before hand, just looking for a reason to revolt. Guessing they didn't like Walterly's actions with the clans before that.
I could see them thinking the clans would destroy their ability to remold the IS to the WOBbies vision.
It was not said the clans did not have highly advanced medical facilities on the home worlds, it was said that they did not seem to have medical ships. Last I knew of, all major cases had to be sent to the home worlds.
One of the clan elementals in the books had his leg regrown after it was shot off when using his armor. He was on the home worlds as it regrew.
More possibilities. General Kerensky gets bad intel, and has Blake shot for being a periphery or house spy.
Amaris is killed by security as he enters the TH.
Someone takes out Richard before he becomes first lord, or a real accident happens.
The houses rejects the SL proposition and all attack fearing the TH will eventually attack them.
One potential thing with Alric is his mother may well have lied to him about the past, to try and control him. This might be why he is screwed up in a few ways.
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Karagin
05/19/22 01:28 AM
70.118.172.64
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Alric is a screwed-up, homicidal genius who, then again most conquerers are. And pretty sure his daddy's issues with Phelan and Warden cause didn't help either.
WoB's ideas/ideals were there all along, the part I am saying is a bit rushed and tossed in without a lot of thought was their massive building up in only two decades, and the idea that they had hidden worlds and all that sounds more like a cop-out excuse to do hand waveium vs real storytelling. Sure they could have a sect or two that had plans to take over if they got the chance, but poof, hand waved, the coconuts move, but the object never did, but the moving of the coconuts allowed the writers to slide in all the insane and then if you question it, well you are the one is wrong because they are the writers and TPTB. Yet as we are pointing out to our young friend, the canon didn't support the WoB pulling a Sith Restoration ala Dark Empire or ROS, and doing so made the rest of the factions in the game look like idiots. Yes hints got dropped of double dealings and internal issues with ComStar in Spider and the Wolf, and they got mentioned a few more times, but for the systems to be in place you need more the two decades to pull it off. And yes I know the current tall tale, they (WoB and the crazy sects) had the support of the Terran nobles/leaders/business groups, etc...same groups we are told that support Amaris, and Cameron. And somehow that means it's okay, that allowed it to happen because they supported it. That's like saying the Fed-Suns should have conquered the Cap-Con, because, with the expectation of two nobles, Hanses had all the others in his back pocket. Or does one need all of them to pull things off?
Now the Clan Medtech, I would say the warships have med-bays, and some might have full medical facilities to treat the badly injured. Same for dropships, however, it's another area that was glossed over. Sometimes I forget that many of the writers aren't that up to speed on military things, and one thing that has been a big deal with modern militaries is triage and all that. Kind of the like the logistical footprint for the Clans would be huge, given that it's normal four support to one front line soldier, but wait, what am I thinking it's the 31st century, things won't be the same, cause you know advances in material sciences, etc...yet you still need folks to fix the broken stuff, you still need food techs, you still fuel/ammo support, and you still need medical support, etc...so the footprint should be as big or bigger. Again the dangerous FASAlogic comes into play and allows for all.
And before anyone screams but Karagin, this isn't a hard sci-fi game...go look at Aerotech, simple it's not, it;s got more in common with Traveller and the Expanse for hard science that a simple move your fighters around and shot the other guy. Vectors and thrusts and spins, etc...oh sorry Cray didn't mean to rain your book. Sorry. Back on to my point, the game can have the hard science and the sci-fi science in the stories, mix the two together, have fun with it, and allow some crazy moments, hell we saw Leia fly in space with no space suit, and no training wannabe somehow become better than ALL that came before. The stories should be entering but not set up like a WWF/WWE match for timing.
As I have said the BT universe has a lot going for it, but it's as if the drive for fun has gone out of it and it's all about the next product regardless of the need for the next thing. We have a lot of things that could be set in the years running up to the 4th War, stuff that we have read about or seen mentioned in another sourcebook or TRO, yet it could be the fodder for a whole book and give us more insights into things and deal with forgotten plot threads and such.
One thing Katherine, more of the nobles who chaffed at both Steiner and Davion's rule of the LC should have used the Civil War to do their own thing, odd we didn't see that happen much.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 03:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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I agree that there is no real way WOB could have built up all those forces in the short time between taking Terra, and the Jihad.
I do think their advance tech is a bit much as well. And the fact Comstar had no clue on any of it, is a bit more far fetched.
From the looks of it, WOB had pumped out more mechs then the SL did in their heyday, and some how got well trained pilots to fill them. This had to come from outside of WOB, which sounds counter productive, as you would think some would be spied or just run off with the new hardware.
The resources alone, would have drawn attention. But then the issue of what resources are in each system that was producing beyond the entire IS combined, wasn't posted.
The game has a few issues with rules, and continuity of them. This is not the end all. It can be played without much effort though some would probably need to be tossed or modified. The story leaves a lot to be desired.
Having played Aerotech, the gravity well makes is almost impossible to fight near a world. At 5000 meters wide hexes, I seriously doubt a warship could bombard a planet, as they could not produce enough thrust to keep it from falling into the atmosphere. The speeds some fighters would be going at, also throws them outside of the map quickly.
I can see the change from having fun making the game to having to produce more content to pay for habits formed isn't something new. Most people that make a lot of money, tend to spend it almost as fast, and don't save much. So when the flow slows, they panic, as they might have to give something up, in order to survive.
I hadn't really thought about the nobles going off on their own thing. But I very much agree, there would be crap going down. Nobles that hate each other, would definitely strike out at each other, with companies doing the same thing. Remove competition or just someone they hate. Even attacks outside of the FC would seem to be common. I could also see attacks from outside the FC be more severe then what they were. I can see a few FWL areas strike the LC, while the TC and others hit the FS.
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Requiem
05/19/22 08:12 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Palmyra was NOT a clan use of dropships … So not specifying when in the time line, there are issues … IS warships
First advised should only be using Clan specifics … then advised that we do not have to use Clan specifics ….
Can we, therefore, return to the original question at hand and when it related to the Clan Invasion circa 3050 / 51?
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Katherine Politics
Machiavellianism - https://blenheimpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/15-Lessons-from-Machiavelli1.pdf
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Do you think some paper will stop the use of things like bombardments?
List of current arms control treaties: https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/treaties/index.html
If they are so useless then why go the trouble of creating them?
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Most of the IS didn’t know ComStar had Mechs until the start of the 4th War, and even then, it was only a small few …
3029: FS interdicted by ComStar.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Interdiction#The_Exclusion_of_the_Federated_Suns
20 Year Update: Page 67 – “Comstar has surprised the Inner sphere by fielding units with total ‘Mech strength exceeding 35 regiments … stationed on populous worlds … stations on sparsely populated worlds … designs not seen since the fall of the Star League.
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So it is likely some knew, just not the masses.
Problem is when they are stationed on your capital world and they are Star League vintage mechs – the media is going to sensationalize it to the point that everyone is going to know.
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Hard to hide a fleet of ships like that
Problem is how many hidden worlds are there to every known world within the volume of the Inner Sphere?
Making the ability, therefore, to hide even a vast warship fleet [is completed] with extreme ease.
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When was Katherine voted into the First Lord Position?
Comprehension of reading – Katherine was “planning for” the day when she would be First Lord – thus she was investigating how, in her mind, once this eventuated she could stage a coup to remain as First Lord in perpetuity …
Quote:
… create incidents that make Victor look bad.
Victor’s complete and utter ineptitude created these incidents … it is not as if she had to try very hard.
Also if a leader is inept they will bring the realm down with them, thus it is in the best interests of the realm that a mercy killing is performed on the inept leader.
Also, as a plot twist by TPTB, assassinating her mother was completely pointless (and in incredibly bad taste) – she only had to remove Victor!
Quote:
Katherine and Vlad
February 3058 – Katherine and Vlad conclude a secret alliance.
October 3058 – First Whitting Conference – resurrection of the Star League
May 3059 – Operation Bulldog / Task Force Serpent
February 3060 – Battle of Huntress
April 3060 – Great Refusal
March 3061 – Victor returns from Clan Space.
November 3062 – Fed Com Civil War Starts
In the cannon setting please provide, when there was an opportunity by the Lyrans to commence an assault upon the Wolfs.
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Command circuit
Yes we all know what it is – the question is how long does it take to establish?
As for the captains – if they don’t want their ship seized then they will do as they are told!
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So given the idea that only parts of the route were given … they operated in all nations, not just the FS.
Pre introduction of Wolf’s Dragoons there were no Clansmen within the IS. This was the whole idea that the Clans would evolve separately from the IS – there would never be a force sent to the IS as no one was allowed to put the road back together.
Quote:
Technically Snord and his group was a defection even before the Recall order was given …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolf%27s_Dragoons#Outreach
Then why when Snord’s unit was chosen to conduct a planetary survey of Outreach did they keep the Star League Industrial Complex secret from the FC whist at the same time provide a true report with the location of the Star League Facility to Jamie Wolf?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Snord%27s_Irregulars#Clan_Invasion
Then why did Wolf’s Dragoons relay the recall order from the Clan Council to Snord’s Irregulars if they had already defected?
Technically they were still Clan as well as Wwolf’s Dragoons reconnaissance unit for Star League Artifacts etc. until they decided to remain within the IS.
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The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas …
Quote:
… it could be suggested that Katherine was an imposter given how she was acting contrary to the expectations of the Steiner-Davion bloodline should be.
“Oh year. More alt put up as canon fact”
Quote:
The Clans have the win or die attitude …
Except for the fact that you can undergo a trial of possession (batchall) for their medial facility.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession
– 1st Knights of the Inner Sphere could have been sent to the front lines – “With what forces do you defend this medical facility, its personnel and all its medicines etc – i.e. everything and everyone working within it …
Really how hard is this?
Also – have you ever seen a military Medbay on a Hospital ship that does not have all the improved tech – what happens if an arm is ripped off … do we just send the warrior back to Clan Space for a more advanced medical treatment?
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what logic?
Still did not answer all the questions in a rational format to explain what is occurring!
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The fact that Katherine assassinated her mother in the story line should have been enough to remove her from the throne
Can you prove that she did, with incontrovertible proof, in front of a jury of her pears that she did this heinous act?
The answer is no, you cannot – even the so-called evidence that Victor obtained would never hold up in court.
Then when Victor just gave her away to the clans how would many see this?
The answer is not in a positive light.
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Katherine destroyed the entire FCs future with this one action
Sorry but it was Victor not Katherine’s actions that brought the FC low – all the way from when he put a double in … all the way through to when he declared war upon his sister.
Victor is one of the most incompetent rulers to ever have existed, as he refused to rule as a ruler upon the Capitol world – he just slinked off to play Commanding Officer of a military unit …
All the folies that brought the FC low can be placed at Victor’s feet.
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There are a few more things that could have happened with exposing Thomas … Bust as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
“Oh year. More alt put up as canon fact”
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we should see the events from all sides
Except for when I make a suggestion?
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The story leaves a lot to be desired.
Really?
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Nobles that hate each other, would definitely strike out at each other …
There are a number of positive stories within the DC that are interesting when it comes to grabbing power …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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As we were talking about the use of clan warships in the invasion, someone said Palmyra was yet another use of clan warships in a bombardment role. Do you know who it was that did this?
3029 was the end of the 4th war, not the start. Only the few people the broke into the storage facility during the wedding knew about them. So again, read what is written and the context provided.
So it is likely some knew, just not the masses. Hard to hide a fleet of ships like that.
So that last sentence should have referred to warships. With that, they did not station warships at the houses capitals.
The statement and conversation was about what happened with the first lord position. Your statemen basically said she was elected and was planning on keeping it by violating the laws made to keep that from happening.
if you read the books, that she was looking for a means of how to accomplish this when she was voted in as First Lord.
This statement sounds like she had been voted in. Given the past context of things like Palmyra being a clan warship bombardment during the clan invasion, and the lose of lands for the Wolves, Falcons, and Bears, it is taken as she was already in office.
To remove Victor, Katherine assassinated her mother to keep Victor from learning how to deal with things in something other then straight on. Melissa was keeping the FC together and away from Katherine. By assassinating Melissa, she also gave the rise to Victor killing Melissa concept, since the masses did not know Victor could have been ruler years before he became ruler. If understanding this is so difficult, then get out of all canon threads, as you have to understand canon to talk about it. The alt is only known by you, so others don't have the back ground information to show the flaws in it as well as canon's flaws.
The LA could have started hitting worlds, which the Wolves had some in the LA, at any time. It would not have been the size of the 4th war, but still could have been done.
As for the captains – if they don’t want their ship seized then they will do as they are told!
Shows a lack of understanding on how things go. Nations that project law and order, not dictatorship, do not just seize vessels like this. They hire them for doing a job. If the owners decide to decline it, then the nation finds another company to do so. During active wars, they are able to take temporary control. They do not keep the properties afterwards. This is why companies build in nations that don't just seize their properties.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 12:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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Reread the proposition to sending the Dragoons into the IS. There were several other fact finding missions sent into the IS. The Dragoons were only the largest of them. So this statement: Pre introduction of Wolf’s Dragoons there were no Clansmen within the IS. is incorrect. During the debate to invade, the information of other forays comes to light. The fact that the khans prevented the information reaching the masses means the corrupt ways of the IS were not distributed.
The route not being given out was discussed before as the earlier scouts would have had to do the segments, or the concept of it fails.
Snord had already turned his back on the clan leadership, he did not give up on Jamie. As the recall affected all those that went into the IS, it was a curtesy to see if any of those that came from the clans wanted to return. Just because they are part of Snord's group, does not mean they were against the clans entirely. Otherwise the concept of spies and insurrection in units would never be possible.
The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas, would have been to show the entire IS that the FWL was already being taken over by an imposter, removing a chunk of the motives for the war created by Joshua's passing.
The statement shows it was speculation, not a statement of fact.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 01:06 PM
45.51.181.83
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The wording, it could be. That does not sound like making a statement, but suggesting something that wasn't done. Hmmm. Sounds like someone doesn't comprehend context of sentences as much as they would like.
There would be no need to challenge for a medical facilities on Huntress. The IS won against the Jaguars, and they did not do a scorched earth policy for things beyond their manufacturing facilities.
Not sure how this got away from the simple statement of the clans don't seem to have medical ships. It does not say medical facilities, is says ships.
They stablize the patient and send them homeward. As they did with the elemental leader that was hurt on Tukkyid. This is done only if the subject is deemed worthy to even undergo such an operation. Most are just stitched up and left without the limb.
Most of the conversations explain things has been done with some rational data, yet is constantly refused or ignored by someone pushing an alt. What Logic was put up since reading the actual print has explained it all to most people on the board. Only one seems to have issues with it.
Again. The evidence against Katherine killing her mother was shown to those that would have tried to argue the results. It must have been good, as they did not even try to raise a stink in the media. The fact is Katherine killed her mother to hurt Victor, and remove the best effective leader of that time is just that. Fact. Throwing the FC into turmoil while the clans still loomed, shows a horrible decision making process.
Get your facts straight. Victor did not put in the double. It was already going on from Hanse putting them in place. He just left the operation continue. Fact two. Melissa was running the FC when Katherine struck. There were no decisions that Victor made that could be used against him as he was not in charge. Ooooops. Time line strikes again.
Could have happened strikes again. That did not say did happen. It shows speculation.
And why is the quote wrong?
Original statement: But as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
The quote: Bust as it did not happen, it is just guessing.
Is the quote program having issues? It appears someone has been editing the quotes otherwise. The s in but , making it bust seems off.
It goes from a suggestion to a demand when terms like only viable solution, has to be, and such are added in, wether during the initial statement or when questioned. Also, when they don't follow the situation, the suggestion falls into other categories. Things like the clans should be stripped of their warships because the IS doesn't have any come to mind. Nukes should be removed from the game entirely, yet without them, the game would not work at all. Now when suggesting the alt can do so, but don't try to demand the entire game be written to your standards is the issue.
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Requiem
05/19/22 06:34 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Palmyra
Semantics - Suggest returning to the original question – regarding orbital bombardment that did not contain a time specific requirement.
Quote:
3029
Suggest re-reading the two Canon resources as noted above.
As they clearly demonstrate that debut of the ComGuards to the IS – all 35 Regiments – and upon Capitol Worlds – post FS Interdiction by ComStar.
Thus it is quite clear that the masses knew .
As for the fleet of ships – given the shear volume of space it would be like trying to find one atom in the entire Terran Solar System.
With the introduction of Star League era Mechs all houses could only hypothesize as o the veracity that the ComGuard also has warships as they were never placed on display as were the ComGuard Star League era Mechs.
Quote:
Your statement basically said she was elected
Comprehension of what was written requires revising! It was clear she was planning for future expectations …
Quote:
Katherine assassinated her mother to keep Victor from learning how to deal with things!
Sorry, if this is to be considered a reason to kill then the plot has just become so ludicrous that it is a wonder the writers were allowed to maintain their positions, as the story has now returned to the 1800’s and that of boys own adventure books – where reality and logic have left the building …
How vast would her entourage be, and how many P.A.s would have the same if not more knowledge and expertise that Victor or Katherine can utilize?
If Victor was so gung-ho in understanding how to rule, then he should have been posted first to his Father’s Command and then as part of his Mother’s entourage rather than swanning about as a unit commander in a Mech cockpit.
If Melissa had any inkling as to Katherine’s motives, wouldn’t she have politically and socially sidelined her?
If Katherine’s aim is to rule – there is only one person who needs to die – Victor!
What is written in canon is perhaps one of the most inept story lines ever created¸ it is just that badly thought through and written as a plot device.
As if Victor was offered the throne years before – then with his death how long will it take before the throne is also offered to her?
Quote:
The LA could have started hitting worlds the Wolves had
So what about the Falcons?
First you have to go through their space to reach the Wolves then you have to anticipate their reaction to the LA attacking the wolves and the at the same if the LA decided to attack the Falcons – what would the Wolves do?
So unless you’re the heir to the kingdom of fools you do attack one Clan as you first have to understand what the other will do.
Also in attacking you would require at least a three to one in favour of the LA in Units (military superiority – given technology differences) to even consider this having any possibility for success – then you also need an appropriate CO who can command such a vast horde in the attack – both of which the LA was lacking.
So no there really isn’t any favourable situation in this time frame to attack.
Quote:
shows a lack of understanding on how things go.
A command circuit is only called for in the most dire of emergencies – thus making its requirement on the same level as that of state security at the highest of levels.
Thus due to the emergency, yes they will do as they are told!
Any captain seen violating a state emergency at this height will be lucky if they only take away their ship.
Quote:
Re-read the proposition to sending the Dragoons into the IS
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf#The_Dragoon_Compromise
“The Clans were blind as to what was going on in the Inner Sphere and an early effort known as Intelstar brought back fragmented rumours from the Periphery.”
Proposed invasion vote led to the Dragoon Compromise – 3004 were good to go - where all of their intelligence was provided from – that “vastly contradicted their preconceived notions of the state of the Inner Sphere – until they stopped all together.”
“With their SOLE SOURCE on the Inner spere’s current situation gone and unable to agree on a replacement, the Clans were left with only hearsay.”
ComStar Explorer Corps – Outbound Light appeared above Huntress in 3048.
The only other mission was Intelstar – and it only went to the Periphery (NOT into the IS) and only obtained fragmented (Useless) information.
The Pre introduction statement regarding Wolf’s Dragoons – there were no clansmen within the IS – is completely and factually correct.
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Snord’s Irregulars
Still doesn’t change the fact they were the lackies of Wolf’s Dragoons.
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The suggestion of exposing the fake Thomas
Would destabilize the establishment of the 2nd Star League and the idea of united SLDF (or currently a NATO alliance)
Only a complete political fool would cross that line, given what is at stake.
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The wording, it could be. That does not sound like making a statement, but suggesting something that wasn't done.
Translation please.
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There would be no need to challenge for a medical facilities on Huntress.
Yes this is absolutely correct as Joshua died 20 May 3057 and Task Force Serpent began their invasion 19 February 3060 – nearly three years later.
So can the Clans now bring Joshua back from the dead?
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Medic …. Medic …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_of_Tukayyid_(3052)
Where is the refence to medical treatment?
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Logic was put up since reading the actual print has explained it all to most people on the board.
So where is this board?
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The evidence against Katherine killing her mother was shown to those that would have tried to argue the results.
Victor has just exiled his own sister to the clans and you are presented with a document as to her guilt – to which was never allowed to go before a court or was ever allowed in the media – can you with good conscious believe such a report is truthful as it requires a 3rd Party Investigation to prove the veracity of the evidence … and yet this was never completed ….
Thus the probability this “so called” evidence is true is highly unreliable.
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Get your facts straight Victor did not put in the double
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_GEMINI
“When Joshua died in 3057, Hanse's son Victor Steiner-Davion activated the contingency plan, replacing Joshua with a lookalike”
Even canon agrees with me – Victor DID put in the double.
Ooooops. Time line strikes again.
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Things like the clans should be stripped of their warships because the IS doesn't have any come to mind.
And where did I write this?
What I said was if the Clans have Warships, then the IS must have an effective counter measure.
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Nukes should be removed from the game entirely, yet without them, the game would not work at all.
Please remind me – did the initial box set and rules there-in have anything that related to the use of Nuclear weapons?
Simple answer no they did not – it was not until way in the future was the call made to include nukes in the game – that said the game works perfectly fine WITHOUT the need for nuclear weapons …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/22 07:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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Ah, but they did contain the limiting statement of CLAN BOMBARDMENT. So inclusion of DC bombardment in the future and making it sound like it was another clan one is the point.
if you are not going to read the entire statement before a response, don't bother with the response. During the wedding of Hanse, only a small few outside Comstar knew of the mechs they had stored. Once they started deploying, then everyone knew. And even with this, Comstar did not deploy their warships, especially over nation capitals.
Yeah. Katherine already had dreams of wiping out all the other leaders, becoming the sole leader of the IS. But nothing was stated during the sentence that stated this.
So get over it. Katherine was already trying to rid the FC of Victor BEFORE he became Archon Prince. Melissa was running the FC after Hanse died. So what events did Victor screw up before Katherine killed Melissa? What choices did Victor decide before this? Katherine moved to remove him before he gained the title. So who started the downfall of the FC? Use logic, not your comprehensive abilities, as they have proven wrong in the past. Katherine started the who thing before Victor could even make any of the decisions as archon prince.
What you saying is it was the fire departments fault the building burned down. Not what caused the fire, but who responded to try and stop it.
Melissa would have seen Katherines issues, and stopped her from inheriting the throne. Katherine wanted Victor humiliated before being destroyed. And if Victor would have been killed, Katherine was the first person that would be looked at.
Again with the inaccurate statements. You do not have to go thru the Falcons to hit the Wolves. The Wolves had the issue as they could not strike below the truce line. That meant having to go thru the Falcons. The IS could use FRR worlds, if they didn't have an FC world close enough to support this action. As there were worlds to strike from in the FC to hit the Wolves, this shows a lack of understanding of the situation.
Given the argument of not having the troops to hold all the worlds in their grasp, the clans would not have had more then what? A cluster on any single world? An RCT should be able to deal with that, to find another excuse. This one is a failure.
The who is Wolfnet run by? It was in the IS before the Dragoons got there. Intelstar was clansmen, and yet it said they sent back garbled information. It did not say they returned. It will probably have to be retconned in, like a lot of things, but clansmen had to be in the IS before the Dragoons. In the source books is said several missions were sent into the IS.
And what do you know. The sole source was gone when the Dragoons ignored the clans. This isn't true, as Wolfnet still sent out information after the Dragoons ignored them. If those that recieved the reports didn't pass them on, then that means the clans did have incoming information, it just wasn't sent to the warriors.
Helping the Dragoons is not the same as being lackies.
Translate the phrase 'it could be' is not stating it happened. It is saying something might have been but wasn't. Not sure why this is difficult to understand.
As long as they have the DNA from Joshua, they could very well make a clone of him. The personna would not be the same.
But like most of the time, you missed the point. The medical facilities the Jaguars had, were in the hands of the IS when they wiped out the Jaguars. There was no need to challenge them to a trial of possession as the Jaguars were dead. The facilities were still standing.
The board is the old term for the websites forums. They used to be called bulletin boards.
There were a lot of claims by Katherine that would never have stood up in court, yet they were false. The claim that Victor killed his mother being a huge one.
So Hanse did not start the project by finding someone that would do the job, and train them to become Joshua?
Before his death in 3052, Hanse Davion initiated a contingency plan for the possibility that Joshua might die in the care of the Federated Commonwealth. If Joshua died, he could be replaced by a body double so that his father, Captain-General Thomas Marik, would be unaware of his son's death.[2][3]
Wow, The second paragraph says wonders about this. Funny how that is never brought up or possibly even read.
As stated before, Victor only let the program run.
Ok, I was wrong. It was the third paragraph, not the 2nd. (Edit)
If you don't remember what you wrote, stop writing. There are several times in multiple threads that you say the clans warships need to be pulled as the IS didn't have any. Or that you should be allowed to start using nukes.
Yes. The boxed set had things related to nukes. Worlds that were radiated, as well as the history of the SL and first two wars using them. The rule sets avoided giving players the ability to use nukes, as it would have removed the game components entirely. Just like having a planetary defense system that wouldn't allow ships to get close to the planet. The SDS did a fine job against the invasion of Terra, the first time. Hmmm...
Now go back to ignoring the non alt threads. I don't want yet another one being locked because of the constant bs of alt being thrown around as canon.
Edited by ghostrider (05/19/22 07:52 PM)
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ghostrider
05/20/22 01:38 AM
45.51.181.83
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I wonder how many of the nobles attacking each other, would be secretly approved by Katherine?
Them doing her bidding without any sort of word or command, that actually allows her to say she had nothing to do with it.
I can see more then a few. Probably anything against the FS or Skye regions being ok, while she would very much condemn those against her allies. But with tongue in cheek for some of them.
And for some to strike across the border into the DC or FWL, would really make her smile. Full deniability, especially if they did some real damage.
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Requiem
05/20/22 08:01 AM
101.185.82.214
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Red Corsair (Clan Variant) utilized a Black Lion, name Fire Rose, whist engaging Arc Royal …
Pg. 266 Natural Selection
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Katherine was already trying to rid the FC of Victor before he became Archon Price
If this was the case, then why didn’t she send a professional to complete the job?
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So what events did Victor screw up before Katherine killed Melissa?
Upon Graduation was appointed the rank of Kommandant – Major (skipping Lieutenant and Captain – both of which are important for the development of an officer).
Battle – Trell 1 – Due to him being as green as grass Victor’s retreat actions, required the Red Brigade to save him – later Cox was forced to knock him out to force him to be evacuated via dropship after he initially refused. What we see here is his inability to see the bigger picture as well as inability to accept the fact that he is the heir apparent of the FC and that with this position he has larger responsibilities to the state – than his personal desire to win glory in battle.
A fatal flaw that he never seems to come to terms with when he becomes Archon Prince.
After being knocked out and undertaking an abortive retreat he is given the command of a battalion of the Tenth Lyran Guards – another position that he has never earned just given due to his pedigree.
Thus we see Victor is saved by Kai Allarad-Liao within the gash.
At this point rather than remaining as CO of his unit he abandons them to travel to Outreach to learn about the Clans from the Dragoons.
During this he came to blows with Hohiro and fell in love with Omika – both indicating his immaturity – the FC needed the DC to form a common front against the Clans thus coming to blows was counter productive (short and long term) – as for falling in love any fool could have told him this was doomed from the start.
Alyina – Kai’s self sacrifice once again saved Victor – due to his own stupidity in not predicting how the enemy would react in order to capture him. And at the end of the battle he only has 13 operational Mechs …
Thus demonstrating once again he still does not know what he is doing.
Teniente – Rescue mission of Hohiro Victor had once again needed to be bailed out – this time by Hohiro
So how good is his military track record so far? Lets just say it was a far distance from the Hero he was been acclaimed as.
Rather than accept his duty upon the death of his father – he convinced his mother to stay on as regent – just so he could continue playing military commander of a mech unit.
With the introduction of the Red Corsair Raids – Victor was determined to ”take up the fight himself” – at this point you really have to ask yourself is this the best thing he can do for the FC – hunting pirates? As a leader at this point he should be delegating this to the best person …
By not doing this we see another of his faults … he has to be the one to fix a problem militarily … he has a real problem when it comes to the idea of delegation.
So yes Victor is a real ____ up as the future ruler of his realm – immature, pig headed, militaristic, dreams of military success beyond his capability, thinking only of his personal wants where as he should be thinking about the wants of the FC people … so just a few of his faults at the time of his Mother’s death. Thus it is quite easy to see how pitiful a leader Victor would be at this point in time which brings with it the future fall of the FC due to his ineptitude.
Whereas if you compare this to Katherine – she (on the other hand) is actively learning how to govern the realm through an intensive mentoring program with the current leader of the FC realm!
Also it is quite clear that Melissa had no idea whatsoever as to what was occurring right under her own nose – is she did then she would never have walked into her own assassination.
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You do not have to go through the Falcons to hit the wolves
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth
Maps – after Clan Invasion https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:LC-3052.png
Two choices – through Rasalhague (bottom / up) – which may violate the treaty, through the Jade Falcons – and through the Periphery (Top / down).
Still looks like the most strategic method of attack is through the Falcons as you will also be able to utilize the Dark Nebula as a forward staging facility, as well as the proximate jump distance to Clan Wolf held worlds closer to the Remains of Rasalhague.
As you will need Rasalhague’s and Comstar’s permission to go bottom up in a war with the Wolves and can you really expect Focht to give the green light?
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A cluster on any single world?
How long before the Clan can amass a sizeable force to fight a lone RCT? This really is a recipe for disaster!
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Wolfnet was in the IS before the Dragoons
Sorry but NO this is just wishful thinking as they never made it past the periphery. Canon backs this up as it is clear by what was written that they came to the periphery and then left – no one was left behind.
Why is it so difficult to understand what was clearly written within Sarna?
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Snord’s Irregulars
Being at their beck and call makes them lackies.
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difficult to understand
What you believe it says and what the rest of us think it says is two different things – rewrite to make it clearer required.
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As long as they have DNA from Joshua, they could make a clone
Really? This is what you say to a grieving family?
Question – If President A built a nuclear missile silo … then many years later President B pushed the button to launch the missile … which President is responsible for the Nuclear war?
As per the Hanse / Victor scenario it appears to be A. Thus is this still applicable can I blame my forefathers for everything wrong in my life – it was never my fault ….
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There were a lot of claims by Katherine that would never have stood up in court, yet they were false. The claim that Victor killed his mother being a huge one.
Sorry but no one in their right mind would ever introduce this into court unless they had already arranged for the evidence ahead of time as a trap.
And yes I did say that nukes should be used against clan warships as it was the only weapon in town that could scratch a warship.
And if TPTB want to play _________________ by not allowing the IS a proper defence method against warships I will say what is the point of it all if you just want to play favourites once again at the expense of a good story?
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I wonder how many of the nobles attacking each other, would be secretly approved by Katherine?
You asked me ignore non alt threads – can I ask what this one is, is it a non-alt thread as it was never discussed in Canon?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/20/22 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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The egotistical Katherine wanted to humiliate Victor. Sending a team would lead back to her.
Many leaders family skip lower ranks. This is not new. It is not a mistake Victor made. It was the promotions board doing so, probably thinking they had to.
Almost all of the examples has him refusing to leave troops behind, while he gets sent to safety. A lot of the situations came about like all combat does. Plans never survive contact with the enemy.
The issue is Victor is not the only child. So having to be completely safe isn't a huge deal. Katherine could very well have taken the FC without destroying it, by just letting Victor do his thing, by removing the escape routes. Arthur and Peter were ready to take the thrones as well, if he died. Sad thing is, he seemed to have the same thoughts as his dead Uncle Ian. You know. Hanses brother that died and left the throne to Hanse.
The drive to do things himself, shows he is not one of those nobles that talk about things, and never does anything about them. In the time of the invasion, his willingness to engage the clans himself, shows the military he is not going to sacrifice them.
Katherine was learning how to destroy those refused to follow her without being punished for it. Her anger at being 2nd born caused her to be overlooked for running the FC due to history. The first born is normally the leader, while another issue that isn't enforced in the FC was her being female. She wanted all to bow to her without needing a command.
Not sure how hitting the clans, became just hitting the Wolves, but given the fact Serpent was going after the clan home worlds, the truce would have been considered violated. Rolling back the Falcons would have opened up doing the same with the Wolves. Katherine would have had to hit the wolves, as just taking on the Falcons would have shown something was up. I mean all of the territory needed to be retaken, not just what the Falcons had.
Still lacking thought before posting? The idea of hitting worlds with a 3 to 1 advantage was answered with the cluster vrs an RCT. Do you think this would be only one world at once? Multiple worlds being hit would prevent the large movement of troops to any one world. And if done with a batchall, the inclusion of other forces is forbidden, if the clans still honored the challenges. So hit like 10 worlds, then refit. As the clans try to retake those worlds, they spread out even thinner. Simple strategy.
Why is it no one has supported your views of things? Yet they back up most of what I am saying about the canon story. Might it be because most see it the same way I do? So by your statement, whos view of the story is correct?
Simple scenario that leaves out one point. Did president B push the button because they were being attacked as such?
Now with the question of grieving parents, how many are their when even a simple raid happens? Any conflict causes grief. Focusing on Joshua puts more importance on him then it should. He was dieing before Thomas was stupid and sent him to New Avalon. NAIS did what they could, but if WOB was merciful, they would have done something. Same with Comstar. Though he is a single person, Joshua was born to die. Honestly, they should have removed him from his misery and pain.
The statement of Victor starting the Gemini program is false. Blame is not allocated to Hanse, as the statement is a false statement. It was simply stating fact. As with all black ops, it ran a risk. It was exposed. Had it not been, the imposter would still never have sat on the throne of the FWL. It just would have been in the future 'Joshua' would die.
And Victor learned from Katherine that implying things does more damage then actual proving it. She implied Victor killed his mother. People believed it without proof.
The question of why nobles didn't pursue their agendas while the civil war raged was brought up. Do you see where I said they had to do this or that? No. I asked what they would have done Katherine's bidding without her direction. I am not forcing a view, nor am I demanding action here. But you haven't seen this in the time on the board, I don't expect you to see it now.
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Requiem
05/20/22 06:08 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Sending a team and that of a professional
Sorry but Katherine is not egotistical, she is, however, a realist and as professional is a noun, then the plural is professionals – thus just as all her previous activities she would send a lone trouble-shooter to deal with Victor. Thus the idea of humiliating him should be inaccurate – In my opinion, like her father, she would just go straight for the neck and kill him outright at the earliest possible situation, which really shouldn’t be that difficult when he continues to play at soldiering.
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Many leaders skip lower ranks
Only if you go back to Napoleonic times, when it was expected that you could purchase your commission.
In modern times – Lieutenant.
What this demonstrates is that the writers required a pretext to provide a suitable rank for Victor – as they need him in charge of a suitable force and not just a part of a force for the projected future narrative.
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The issue is Victor is not the only child. So having to be completely safe isn't a huge deal.
What a loveless family you are proposing – the children are nothing more than interchangeable.
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his willingness to engage the Clans
Clearly demonstrates that Victor has no understanding of his position as heir apparent.
It demonstrates that he refuses to take his position seriously.
Also what happed to his Uncle Ian, who also desired command of a combat unit, and not the throne?
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Katherine
Still have not studied Machiavellianism and the Houses throughout the Renaissance? Katherine’s personality is not that simple.
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the fact Serpent was going after the clan home worlds, the truce would have been considered violated.
… and yet this never occurred in canon.
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just taking on the Falcons would have shown something was up
… just as taking on the Jaguars shows …
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all of the territory needed to be retaken
This is where my Alt Universe steps in as a means of demonstrating how it could be done.
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Still lacking thought before posting? The idea of hitting worlds with a 3 to 1 advantage was answered with the cluster vrs an RCT.
Still do not get it – yes your RCTs may be able to take back several key worlds (for now) however if you do not plan for the combined counter attack by the Clans upon these worlds you have taken your survival probability starts to drop rapidly. Thus only with combined RCT forces will you be able to survive the counterattack.
Question – By this stage have the Falcons come to view all IS forces as nothing more than barbarians – hence allowing them the right to use noble clan tradition such as the batchall has been disallowed?
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President A and B
Attempting to obfuscate will not change the question, the reason why the button was pushed is immaterial – just that it was pushed.
Thus the answer is?
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Focusing on Joshua puts more importance on him then it should.
As Hohiro. Victor and Joshua are all heirs to an empire does this mean you also believe the story places more importance upon Hohiro and Victor than it should?
We are all passing on – this is just the by-product of life.
Thus “Honestly, they should have removed Hohiro and Victor from their misery and pain?”
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Black ops
So the end justifies the means? – and what about Katherine is she too allowed to use this for the betterment of the FC realm – kill anyone just as long as it makes the realm stronger? …
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implying things does more damage then actual proving it … People believed it without proof.
And what of Victor’s so called proof is it implied so that people will just believe it also?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/20/22 11:21 PM
45.51.181.83
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Can someone explain to me, besides saying the developers needs to push a story line forward, why Melissa did not cancel Gemini? Her time as Archon-Princess would have made her aware of the operation, and given her background reputation, she would have cancelled it.
Two flaws with the Katherine statement. First is that she was egotistical, and second, Hanse was called the Fox because he was not one to hit you straight on unless he had to. Hanse would distract and hit you from four different angles. As Katherine was convinced she was the only one to rule them all, that is the very foundation of an egotistical person.
How many leaders went from being a child to a ruler of a realm? The skipping of lower ranks goes much further back. It goes to the dawn of mankind.
The concept pushed that everything rode on Victor taking over the FC is a false narrative. So showing that he was not going to hide to save his hide when others were dying in the field was the point of him leading them. Something that seems to be missing from the argument. Had he hid, you would have called him a coward. That is the logic projected thru the responses put up.
Ian gave his life holding back the DC when the situation got bad. He allowed his unit to get free, which also included Patrick and Morgan Kell. Also, he was not there because he desired combat over the throne, but was there because he felt he had little choice. Or did you not read that as well?
As the trial on Strana Mechty ended the invasion, violation of the Truce was ignored. The fact that the IS struck from below the truce line in order to get the clan home worlds looks to have been overlooked.
Learn context. We were talking about the possibility of the FC taking back worlds from the clans when Serpent was on their way to the clan home worlds. Suggesting that all clans had to be removed, hitting just the Falcons would have had people asking why Katherine didn't order hits on the Wolves as well. But you don't seem to want to think of that, as it destroys the entire vision of the story, or possible alternatives.
No. The alt has things that never happened, popping out the backside, with tactics in place that counter things in the future nothing could predict. It has no place in arguing canon facts. As you have multiple threads on the subject, and time and time again, was told to keep to canon facts when arguing canon facts, it appears you can't separate what is canon facts anymore. WIth that, go back to just your alt threads, as that is all you really seem to know, given the responses to everything else.
Really need to think about things before posting, don't you? When suggesting the FC hit the other clans you said you need a 3 to 1 ratio. The response was suggesting a cluster at the most would guard any clan world. Were is it said that only one RCT would be attacking? You would have multiple RCTs attacking multiple worlds. Not sure why this had to be said.
This concept would force the clans to cover more worlds, which means concentrating their forces wouldn't be done.
Immaterial on why someone would press a button launching nukes? That is the ONLY reason that is needed to send nukes. So that red juicy button that says don't press, or the world would end, would be hit just to see what happens? This isn't a cartoon.
As Joshua was dying and in pain, there is a different story then Victor and Hohiro had. And yet again, complaining about Joshua, while a lot of other children died in the wars shows this is only a point to try and change the fact Katherine destroyed the FC to try and humiliate Victor. As stated, WOB and Comstar both refused to deal with Joshua. Yet both were supposed to save the IS. The first question in this response says it all. This was a plot point to move the story along. If any thought was given to Melissa and her ways, Gemini would have been cancelled before Victor even got the chance to continue it.
Killing the person that was ruling the FC better then Katherine could, was a black op. It did NOT better the FC. It made it far worse. But the vision you have refuses to see logic. It is just pushing that the alt is the only thing that makes sense, which it doesn't.
For the masses, it was the same trick Katherine used time and again. For those that would have raised a stink about it, it was enough to make the realize just how far gone Katherine was. Killing her mother was what destroyed the FC. Most of those supporting Katherine were Melissa supporters. They turned on Victor because of Katherine's lies. Once they seen the truth, the stopped supporting Katherine.
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Requiem
05/21/22 05:40 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Why Melissa did not cancel Gemini?
The simple answer, she did not have to as all records was sealed and locked away in the vault – in all reality it is highly likely that she did not even know of the document to begin with.
So let me explain utilising the following timeline - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_GEMINI
3051 – Conference of Outreach, First Prince Hanse Davion offered Joshua Marik a bed within NAIS to treat his leukemia.
At this point in time Hanse established a contingency plan in the event of Joshua’s premature death to maintain military aid provided by the FWL to fight the Clans.
This contingency plan – like so many before it – was promptly sealed within the archives under the codename Operation GEMINI.
17 June 3052 – First Prince Hanse Davion dies.
The position of First Price is offered to Victor – he promptly refuses. Melissa is made Regent in the hope that Victor will come to his senses – give up playing soldier and actually do his fulfill his position as per his birthright.
In the interim Operation Gemini – remains locked in the vault unremembered. (Remember this is, at this time, just a glorified contingency document – a what if brief amongst thousands / millions of other contingency plans based upon plausible and implausible events).
19 June 3055 – Melissa Steiner is assassinated.
At this point Victor can no longer shirk his duty – thus assuming the post as First Price / Archon of the FC.
Sometime thereafter the Doctors within NAIS inform Victor that all attempts to save Joshua Marik have failed – they advise him the child has only a short time remaining.
In a pit of uncertainty and extreme fear that he {Victor} will be found wanting when he is compared to either his father or his mother in their ability to rule. Victor decides to search the archives for any advice from his father, and it is at this stage he comes across Operation GEMINI (at this point we do not know if this was the only plan or there were many probable plans constructed upon the line of what if such and such happened what will we do? – i.e contingency planning at its best).
What we do know however is that rather than Victor making a rational choice, on his own ( a choice that his mother would have made), to return the child to his father within the FWL and with the hope that the FWL will still aid in the fighting of the Clans he decides to let the devil on his shoulder whisper into his ear that rather than the angel of his better virtues. He takes the course he believes that dad suggested – as he was the great leader as well as his Father– and abrogates all responsibility by following his father’s old contingency plan – that may or may not have ever seen the light of day as it was only ever a contingency plan – it was never set in stone!
Thus, shortly before the real Joshua Marik breathed his last breath on 20 May 3057, Victor gave the go order to Operation GEMINI (a mistake that will haunt him for the rest of his life and prove to everyone – especially his sister Katherine that Victor is unfit to rule and should be deposed from the position as it is quite clear that Victor cannot make the hard decisions as he paralysed by fear of not measuring up to his father’s expectations).
Simple.
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Katherine was an egotistical person
Read above re Gemini – it is quite clear that she saw Victor’s faults as a future leader way before anyone else – what she also realised was that everyone who looked at Victor only saw the Fox’s son ( ie they were viewing him through rose coloured glasses – and they failed to see the real Victor).
Thus, as the true daughter of the Fox – and for the betterment of the FC as well as the IS – she knew she had to act in the only way that could safeguard everyone.
This is the actions of a realist not an egotist!
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Skipping over ranks
In today’s modern military is such an achievement even possible? Except in certain militaries where when you die in combat you receive a three-rank promotion.
Remember the military of the far future is supposed to be a most professional body than today. As they have been fighting for how long now? And how will it assist the realm in the future if the ruler does not understand the job complexities of the lower officer ranks? By not rising through the ranks the ruler does not have this insight and they do not have the ability to fix any problems, as they do not have the insight that comes with progressing through the ranks.
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Victor in the field (the early missions)
I agree Victor did not hide like a coward as his ego would not let him. The issue is that upon graduating he was green as green as all green grass; he knew only that which the Academy taught him. Once on the filed his Academy training amounted to absolutely nothing, he has yet to achieve combat awareness as well as combat experience that only experience can provide and only experience would allow him to make rational decisions on the battlefield.
He was ill prepared for combat and as such he made mistakes that got good people killed!
In the TV series regarding Richard Sharpe they discussed that there are two types of offices …
“There are two kinds of officers, sir: killin’ officers and murderin’ officers. Killin’ officers are poor old buggers that get you killed by mistake. Murderin’ officers are mad, bad, old buggers that get you killed on purpose – for a country, for a religion, maybe even a flag …”
You see that Victor … That’s what I call a muderin’ officer – and why? Because Victor really doesn’t know what he is doing and is unwilling to listen to any experienced 2IC they would have provided him with, as he is the Fox’s son! and he can do no wrong! … and in so doing he gets the majority of his unit shout out from under him as they have express orders to protect the little prig at all cost.
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First Price – Ian and Victor – in the field
Yes every ruler wants to recognised as the great statesman and war hero …yes it all sounds so gallant and yet it is also the single most idiotic action that a commander can undertake upon a modern battlefield.
However, and this is a big however, what is the duty of the Commander in Chief of the entire military of a single great House. Is it to command, within central command of the Fox’s Lair over a vast number of military units in an attempt to stop a full invasion or is it to ignore this duty and to ride out, take command of a small cog of a much larger machine (an in the process become myopic as to what is occurring within the wider war) and remain …
Both are First Price – their duty is command, all the forces – it is most definitely not to place yourself in command an independent Regiment, and it is never to act as rear guard so that you can kill yourself in a stupid stand just so that people can think you are a hero ….
When you are in Command, Command!
So lets put this simply – WW2 – Rather than command the Allied Expeditionary Force U.S. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower decides to take command of the Big Red 1, go into the field, and continue the battle …
This is what you are suggesting here!
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As the trial on Strana Mechty ended the invasion, violation of the Truce was ignored. The fact that the IS struck from below the truce line in order to get the clan home worlds looks to have been overlooked.
May 1 3059 Task Force Serpent departs on its journey – OpFor training located on Defiance within the Crucis March.
12 April 3060 – Received safcon as well as a meeting with the Grand Council – six days later challenge issued as to a Trial of Refusal ….
Question – how does the battle of Tukayyid factor into a war initially against the Smoke Jaguars and then as a Trial of Refusal against all the Clans, especially when Victor and all IS forces have been provided with Safcon in order to undertake the trial?
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We were talking about the possibility of the FC taking back worlds from the clans when Serpent was on their way
Question
– it was agreed within the IS that you would attack only one Clan – The Smoke Jaguars. Correct?
- it was then agreed by all the other Clans within the IS that this problem related to the Smoke Jaguars only. Correct?
Thus at this point in time your best units are within the DC fighting the Jaguars.
So why would you risk everything, as well as any hope of ever being voted in as First Lord of the 2nd Star League in the future, by undertaking the single most ridiculous act that will undermine everything all house militaries are attempting to achieve currently.
Until the outcome within Clan Space is known or the Clans jump the reservation you have no choice but to do nothing provocative.
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This concept would force the clans to cover more worlds, which means concentrating their forces wouldn't be done.
Need to look at the Touman of the Clan fist as well as how its forces have been dispersed within their OZ – do you have enough RCTs to attack every world at the same time? Otherwise this idea of clan forces being unable to concentrate their forces suddenly evaporates.
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Immaterial on why someone would press a button launching nukes?
Still obfuscating the question – come on third times a charm it’s a simple question.
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killing the person that was ruling the FC … was a black op … it did not better the FC
1st – Dancing Joker as the assassin was now used twice … no black op forces.
2nd – Katherine in charge provided stability – how did Victor or even Yvonne provide stability when the fist refused to leave the cockpit of his mech to govern the realm as First Price and the second was little better than a basket case?
Thus can I ask with regards to Victor’s Military Unit – did it have Reinforced Infantry unit that comprised only civil servants that were assigned to assisted him with the running of the realm – budgets, laws, appointments, meetings etc. Also can you explain how the First Price is expected to run the government from his Mech Cockpit when the entire government’s bureaucracy is how many light years distant?
So where is the “logic” in having an absentee First Price who wants to play at being a military commander as well as a Basket Case who both cannot run the Government – and can only cause internal strife and turmoil?
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They turned on Victor because of Katherine's lies. Once they seen the truth, the stopped supporting Katherine.
First, The media as well as her conduct and the policies she adopted as ruler endeared her to the masses – she was doing an excellent job hence the high popularity rating.
Second, Victor never allowed the mass media to be provided with a copy of his so called evidence – thus the masses never stopped supporting her.
What we have in the future with regards to Adam and her induction into the Clans is one of the more ludicrous plot twists ever devised and makes no real sense whatsoever …
As in all reality if she came back to the LA during the Jihad the majority of the people, the Media, and the Military would have instantly defected to her as she was seen as a stabilizing force that could save them ie a Valkyrie come from Valhalla to save them all …
And this is the real truth of the matter.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/21/22 12:22 PM
45.51.181.83
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First false fact. Melissa was not appointed regent in hopes of Victor would come to his senses. As wife of Hanse, she was next in line to take over the position. As Victor did not press her for the job, she remained their until she was murdered.
Do you think Hanse did not discuss the operation with Melissa? I am very doubtful it just slipped his mind.
It is also probable that Victor was told about this operation when Hanse put it in motion.
Katherine saw fault in everyone because she decided only she could rule. This is the simple fact of the matter. She thought that out before Hanse died. She was already showing signs as she was being taught. The ego was increasing in size when she found out she could use her power to manipulate people like her tutors.
How many commanders go rogue? Ignore orders to go off on glory runs? And with social generals being in all houses, not just Steiner, most get children born to the rich jump ranks. Victor was a little more extreme then others, but wasn't unique.
Are you forgetting that Victor dealt with great military commanders all the time? Not only his father, but those like Buckaroo Banzai, the Davion brigades, the Lyran Royal brigades and such? I am sure they trained him in combat, as well as command. I would suspect even the Dragoons had some sessions with him. So he was not green like someone just learning how to control the mech.
The history of the game has had most commanders take to the field. The only ones that didn't were not trained in mech operations. Being there helps you to learn the ebb and flow of the battlefield as well as tricks that can be used. Is it smart when in command of an entire realm? Not really. But it is almost demanded that the leader do take to the field to defend their lands. Hanse did it when the 'death commandos' attacked New Avalon. One Battlemaster against the commandos. This is not something that was smart. Only plot armor allowed him to survive this. Don't care how good you are, 36 mechs verses one is not a winning proposition when you are the 1.
Yes, help was coming, but one good shot would have ended it all, and should have. The odds were not in Hanse's favor.
Gonna try that crap again? The fact that Serpent was attacking everything Smoke Jaguar on their way to and in the clan worlds would be a violation of the truce, given the logic of striking from below the truce line. There were no recorded Jagaur bases or forces below the line on the Exodus road. But then the truce did not say anything about the IS striking back. It was something the IS was worried about.
The trial was done AFTER Serpent basically destroyed the Jaguars.
Funny. The exact opposite was stated a while back. When Hanse was defending against the clans, it was stated by someone that ALL forces in the FS portion be sent up to remove the clans from the FC. Now it is best not to do anything? Provoke the clans was a concern, but a full scale invasion was not suggested. Hitting worlds and pushing the clans off them was. There is a difference. Challenging for possession of worlds is standard clan protocol. The FC would have done so while doing this. Aggression is something the clans respect. As the clans were respecting the truce, you could very well have started hitting them from above the line, and pushing them back. Had this happened, the entire issue of the Falcons push would not have happened during the civil war.
Again, the concept of threat of attack alludes you. As the Falcon khans, do you risk losing multiple worlds because you pulled the defenders off them to send them several jumps away to concentrate on where you are being attacked? The FC would have you cut off in a few assaults if you did that. This is the very issue that caused the downfall of the CC in the 4th war. They would not be able to reinforce areas, as others would definitely be attacked. But that's right. You don't understand the piranha effect. Your statement of all forces being in one location and then being sent out once an attack is noted confirms the lack of understanding this.
No. Using nukes always comes down to why. Then again, the auto retaliate function removes this option.
The person that introduces the bomb is ultimately responsible. Had it not been invented and made, it would not be an option. Simple, basic logic.
What do you think a black op is? Using resources in operations that you don't want others knowing it was you.
Katherine provided stability by killing Melissa? Remove the alt from this and what do you get? Katherine killed Melissa to strike at Victor to hurt him. Obviously, Katherine didn't care for Melissa, otherwise she would have found a different way. But Melissa stood in her way of power.
The answer to running a government from the cockpit of the mech has been answered before.
Victor was NOT archon prince until Melissa was murdered. She was running the government, allowing Victor to stay in the field. Second, the government is designed to work without the leader being in contact for a while. That is why reagents and ministers are posted. They handle things in their area while the leader is out of touch. There are a lot of things in the government that the leader never hears about. Only when there is something wrong, will they be told.
She was lying, and the media was not reporting the truth. The masses did not know of the crimes she was doing to others. The high popularity was a false concept. If she was so popular, the civil war would not have been started. Worlds would not have rejected her rule. Stealing the throne is not considered a good thing.
Actually, the idea of her just waltzing in and retaking the LA/LC is wrong. Once the media and everyone else got the real information, not the fiction she was producing, opinions would change. She would still have the fanatically loyal subjects, but the main population would have soured on her actions. She lied to them about what was really going on with those that did not drop to their knees and worship her. Also, the masses are affected by the planetary rulers, as well as others. Once they stopped glossing over the real facts, opinions would have changed.
And since Victor did NOT attempt to take the throne, that entire line of argument is out the window.
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Requiem
05/21/22 03:16 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
First false fact. Melissa was not appointed regent in hopes of Victor would come to his senses. As wife of Hanse, she was next in line to take over the position.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Davion
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Steiner-Davion
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Melissa_Steiner_(31st_c.)
First ‘false fact’ is in fact correct.
First piece of evidence: If you had perused the House Davion / House Steiner-Davion Family Tree it becomes obvious that a spouse cannot inherit the Wife / husband’s position as First Princess / Prince.
Second piece of evidence: the Titles she was bestowed with – refer here to Melissa wiki entry “Melissa ruled the Federated Commonwealth as both Archon of the Lyran half (that she inherited from her mother and on her death would pass to Victor as first born) and her capacity as Regent (NOT First Princess) of the Davion half until her eldest child could come of age.”
Third piece of evidence: The definition of Regent – The Oxford Dictionary defines Regent as a person appointed to administer a state because the monarch is a minor or is absent or incapacitated.
Note in 3052 Victor was 22 years old – thus he has come of age and was therefore refusing the Title as First Price so that he could continue swanning about as a soldier and not as the Ruler of the FS.
Thus the statement made that she was hoping Victor would come to his senses and take the Throne is accurate!
Q.E.D.
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Only she could rule
Remember the Oath – Defend the state against all … Foreign and Domestic?
Take a look through the Battletech History of when an incompetent person / a person who only contemplates military adventurism as a leader of a Military Unit takes the Throne.
This history is littered with leaders who leave the sate in a far worse position than that when they received it due to their incredible mismanagement of the State.
As a scion of House Steiner-Davion Katherine has a duty to defend the state against a domestic threat … Victor’s incompetence.
Which is demonstrated by his fist policy … Genesis … and that of a War.
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How many commanders go rogue? Ignore orders to go off on glory runs? … children born to the rich jump ranks. Victor was a little more extreme … but wasn't unique.
In a modern military this will prove disastrous – especially when you state has been in an on again / off again war with its neighbours for how many centuries.
And especially so when the person doing it is the heir to the throne, as what happens if she / he dies without an issue and they also have no siblings – Civil War is a real possibility.
This just demonstrates that when a Ruler goes AWOL from the Thone expect there to great hardship to follow.
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I am sure they trained him in combat
So whist he was growing up they would take him out into the back yard with their Mechs and Units – and stage a real life exercise utilizing live rounds just so that Victor could acquire combat experience.
Sorry but no – the closest Victor would get to combat is either in Academy OpFor games with powered down weapons or in a simulator – and neither is a substitute for real life when someone is trying to take your head.
Face it, Victor was green as green as green grass when he was “provided not earnt” his first command – and look and see what he did with that.
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The history of the game has had most commanders take to the field.
And how many of those are Rulers of a House and how many of them actually survive their time in command – and how many of them leave their realm in a worse situation due to their foolish adventurism.
As for Hanse – he was first on the field in defence of the Helm Memory core (though wouldn’t there be back up copies also?) – however with the arrival of support personnel he should have immediately retired from the field …
It was a raiding force of inexperienced ComGuard soldiers who were in battle for the first time – hence the easy wins!
If we are going bring in Hanse as an example of a “typical” leader … he was brought up not to take the throne but to assist his brother as his strong right arm, hence all the military training as well as actual combat … however how many times did he take to field when he assumed the Post as First Price? As wasn’t he for the most part on his capitol world leading the Government and the military in orchestrating strong economic as well as military strategies?
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would be a violation of the truce
And yet canon says otherwise! As the Invasion was actually coming at the Jaguars from bases side on.
Also the Truce only said that the Clans could not go below a certain point – it did not say that the IS could attack from bellow that point.
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The exact opposite was stated a while back.
First, what are your political and military objectives at the start of the war.
Second, with the establishment of the SLDF due to the establishment of the 2nd Star League – how do these objectives change not that rather than fighting on your own you are now fighting in a coalition.
Times change and we must change with the times – at these points in time there are two distinct and different political and military goals.
So do you believe you have enough forces to take on every world within the Falcon OZ – whist at the same time do you believe hat the technology gab between that of the LA and Clans has been reduced significantly so that the FC can stand toe to toe with the Clans and give as good as they get. i.e. there is no disparity in LC / Clan forces when fighting?
Also whist this projected war commenced you are certain that it will not derail the war within the Falcon OZ and thus recommence the Clan Invasion of the IS? Where all the Home Clans are now allowed to invade also as the treaty is now broken and all Clans can Invade?
Sorry but I can’t see it … the best LA forces are away and you just do not have remaining forces to engage the Falcons on every one of their worlds at the same time.
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the simple question
The silence is the thunderous when it comes to this question.
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Katherine provided stability by killing Melissa?
Fabrication of discussion – only Victor had to go.
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the government is designed to work without the leader being in contact for a while. That is why reagents and ministers are posted.
Sorry but this is not the case – the government cannot run for vast periods of time when the leader is swanning off to play soldier for years at an end. All this does is paralyse the government whilst destroying the economy.
Also isn’t this a sure fire way of loosing your throne via a coup? Ow yes this did happen!
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She was lying, and the media was not reporting the truth.
So where does it ever say that a LA reporter stumbled upon her lying?
Also during the Civil War how popular was she have you even bothered to look? As remember it was Victor who started this war it was not Katherine!
Also when did Victor prove she was lying, the answer is never.
The only reason why they went to Victor’s side was her pro Lyran stance – as well as some of the Lords were being opportunistic in their backing - help him now and get a prize later.
Since he did not due his duty and take the throne proves that he is incompetent.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/21/22 07:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The spouse inherited the LC from her husband, starting the entire concept of Steiner running the LC. Oh wait. That doesn't count as it flies in the face of the bs afterwards.
The spouses in that tree were not from a ruling line as Melissa was. So the name was kept at the ruling line. There is nothing stating that the spouse can not inherit the title. If true, then Hanse could not have inherited the archon name as he was not part of the blood line for the LC.
Again, false facts to try and change the canon truth. The Archon-prince(ss) line was above both house positions. The fact Victor gave his mother the Prince title when he decided he needed to learn more changes the inherited line. As VICTOR decided to continue to try and learn to rule, the clans invasion kept him from focusing on the non military aspects of it. Melissa did not retain the title because she felt he was unable to do the job, she did it because he asked her to. Since he was learning under Melissa's tutoring, Katherine killed Melissa before Victor could become a better leader.
Really? Trying to suggest someone will follow some quote when they want to rule a nation, and will do anything to do so. How about you get some people backing up your views to say so. So far, it seems only one person thinks this way, and he constantly adds in alt views as canon. Someone with a huge ego will think all people except them are unfit for a position. Therefore all people are terrorists domestic or not. She killed her mother to try and humiliate and cause a massive uprising so she could be seen as the hero. Who is the terrorist? The one that promotes violence against the people for their own personal gains?
Might need to reread the games history. Rogue commanders happen a lot more often then you seem to think. Otherwise, things like poisoning water reserves would only be done at the direct command of the realms leader. There would never be anything like a coup. And that is never, as it requires going against the leaders wishes and orders.
Nondi and Katrina fought in mechs when they were pre teens. Live training excersizes are done in training facilities around the IS. We will ignore the clans, as they are a different story. Most students have been in live fire excersize long before they are 18. This is part of military training in the IS.
Also, the simulators do a great job at teaching you to avoid dying, especially when dealing with the elite units that were stationed or visited New Avalon and Tharkad.
Or are you saying that training outside of live fire doesn't teach you anything?
Where did it say the Comstar force was inexperienced? I have never seen anything in canon print stating they were inexperienced. They were professionals as they destroyed their DNA when taken down.
As for how many realms suffered while they were gone is impossible to say. How many prospered because the leader wasn't around to put his two cents into everything, especially fields he had no clue in? Being born into a leadership house does not mean you can rule properly. Reagents can make decisions while the ruler is out of touch. How do you think most realms ran when the 1st and 2nd war was raging? Most leaders were part of the forces in war, not hiding on their home worlds.
Read the entire response before responding with bs. First off, the truce line was there so even if the clans went to the Pegasus Galaxy and back, they could not strike beyond the truce line.
This statement: But then the truce did not say anything about the IS striking back. It was something the IS was worried about. covers the issue. So did you read that part?
Maybe you should take a day or two to respond. No where in the statements does it say you take every world in the zone in a month. You simply start hitting a few worlds and slowly push back the clans. 3 to 1 is about an RCT verses a cluster. You hit worlds and make is so any movement of troops will leave holes in their lines, so you can hit multiple worlds with far less forces. As the IS had the numeric superiority, just getting the forces to the worlds would have tied down forces.
At the beginning of the war, you said all FS forces should have hit the clans. Now we are talking about using what is available without throwing them away. You have a much better intel view on what is where, and how many, not the blind strikes you would have done in the first part of the war. You also have a much better idea on how they fight and the differences in the tech. This is a smarter war then the initial invasion was.
To try to engage on every world shows the lack of strategy and tactics. Threatening worlds with invasions will keep forces pinned. Even the clans.
Fabrication of discussion? You fabricated the Melissa did not bring stability to the FC? Or that killing Melissa would bring stability? Just wanted to know, as Katherine would have had to kill Melissa anyways, as Katherine would never have been able to assume the throne as long as Melissa was alive. Peter or Arthur would have. Time of war needed a proven warrior. With Victor in the field, Melissa could get around this issue.
The coup happened because a family member seized the throne. Someone outside of the family would have been executed as soon as they could be.
Several media companies were shut down while Katherine spread her lies. They reopened under new management that supported her lies. Sound like a dictatorship to me. Sounds like suppression of the truth to me. But then if you had read the canon stories properly you would remember all of this.
Victor stated the civil war? Who stole whose throne? Who was the one destroying the FC in a push to make all worship her? Who kllled their mother to begin the major push into stealing the throne? Who was allowing 'rogue' commanders to kill noble families in order to silence the truth?
The truth came out Katherine was lying about a lot of things.
Explain if Katherine was so popular that it was in the LC that the civil war started, and why units were siding with him that were traditionally Steiner units?
Like maybe Archers unit as the Katherine supporter killed his sister among others on Thorin?
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Requiem
05/22/22 08:53 AM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
The spouse inherited the LC …
Sorry but you do realize that as Hanse is now deceased we are actually discussing the FS component of the FC and not the Lyran component.
As for the spouse inheriting, if you actually looked at the Family Tree it is quite recognisable that the spouse does not inherit.
As for “the fact Victor gave his mother the Price Title,” if you had read Melissa’s sarna entry you would have noticed, as was pointed out above, she was never provided with the First Princess Title – she was only provided with the title of Regent.
Also as Victor was 22 years old – him taking a sabbatical within the military to learn how to rule is very counterproductive. As if he wished to learn to rule then there could be no one better than that of his Mother to teach him the ropes as it were – a position his siter realizes as being immensely important as to her education when it comes to learning to rule …
Thus the hole proposition is quite obsequious as to the view of Melissa’s FS title.
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She killed her mother …
Can you prove this claim in a court of law, if not it is just liable slander, and remember not even Victor can prove this in a court of law …
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Terrorist
Oxford dictionary
a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Please let me know what unlawful actions the Archon had undertaken?
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poisoning water reserves
A war crime – and who and where and when?
As for a coup – it is just a horse race to see who is first part the post …
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fighting in Mechs when pre-teens
They were in mechs when they were between 9 and 12 years old?
Yes it is true that Katrina graduated from the Nagelring at 18 – however where does it say she started training in a mech this young? As for Nondi where does it say when she graduated as it only stipulates these two sisters competed ….
Training exercises are just that training exercises – it is not the same as being in battle!
As for simulators – you have to consider the psychology – you know it is a simulator and you know that you will walk out alive no matter what you do – thus how is this comparable to a live military exercise where people are attempting to kill you ….
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Where did it say the ComStar force was inexperienced?
Can you please provide a detailed list of all combat these units were involved in? also where does it say these individuals maintained an acid bath in their cockpit in order to destroy all DNA evidence?
Thus inexperienced is an appropriate word …
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most forces in the 1st and 2nd war were part of the forces in war, not hiding o their home worlds
And look at how that eventuated.
As for the truce line – this affects only the clans – it has no effect whatso ever on the IS.
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threatening worlds with invasions ….
Doesn’t this depend upon the clan commander?
Also the FS throne goes to the oldest sibling – thus if victor is dead it goes to Katherine,
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where did it say media companies were being sold
Question where once again is your proof by the civilians to show that it was all Katherine’s fault?
Also Archer’s sister – this requires assistance via the MP – so who else has this power like the CO Of the Military and how about others ? can you show me the smoking gun ?
Also within the Lyran realm how long has money being able to buy you anything you want - thus with enough money in the right circles can you buy your own freedom from anything?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/22/22 11:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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The founding charter called for nine "Archons" to rule the nation, but the impracticality of this system led to a coup by the leader of Donegal, Robert Marsden, who declared himself Archon Basileus in August 2375. An invasion by the Draconis Combine in 2407 resulted in the death of then Archon Alistair Marsden, brother of Robert, in 2408. Rule fell to his wife, Katherine Steiner, safely ensconced on the new capital of Tharkad. The reign of House Steiner had begun.
What? As stated the LC change hands thru spousal means.
And as you look at the tree, none of those spouses were from a ruling family of a nation. The Steiner-Davion merger is unique in this aspect.
Yeah. I guess stopping the biggest military threat to his people shouldn't have been his first priority. I mean, what good is learning to rule a nation that won't be there in the coming years.
Still playing that dead card? Katherine accused Victor of all sorts of things and never once proved any of it. Media manipulation is not the same as a courts verdict. As we are talking about the persons actions to define their rights, Katherine killed her mother. That is fact. It shows she will do anything to gain and retain power. This fact is why the civil war happened. She continued to abuse her powers and hurt people for doing exactly what she was trying to get them to do, only instead of voicing Victor was evil, they said she was. The only person Victor actively tried to suppress from protesting, was Ryan. Katherine killed Ryan as well.
Killing and ordering the deaths of all that opposed her, starting with her mother, and not ending until she died. That should cover the definition. But then saying killing her mother was correct as she was trying to control her family. I doubt you see the irony here.
Go read the 4th war, where the sword of light regiment poisoned the water reserves. Then the use of the chemicals in the CC. They were continuously used by the CC in the St. Ives war. Not an oooops, but used on several worlds, so the revenge aspect didn't work. Those chemicals were left over from before St. Ives split from the CC, so they knew they were there.
The fact that the assassination of Melissa was a huge part of Katherines media ploy to turn opinion from Victor, was never proved in court. It couldn't be, but it was used to convict him in the eyes of the public. So your where's the proof doesn't hold up.
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ghostrider
05/22/22 12:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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Interesting reading.
Ironically, in order for Katherine to come to power in the Clans, she had to shed her image as a peacemaker and become a warrior. Though she learned to pilot a 'Mech there, she was never as skilled as she was in politics.[1]
So Katherine did not learn to pilot a mech in the FS.
Katherine used whatever means necessary to attain power, This is in the wiki under Katherine's section as well.
Katherine generally allowed her military commanders free rein to prosecute the war against her brother's supporters as they saw fit, as she focused on rooting out insurrectionists and other supporters of her brother. Arrests, sessions of torture and executions became common events, especially on New Avalon.[7]
She also demonstrated distinct signs of pettiness and cruelty, regularly using her nation's resources to persecute anyone she deemed an enemy. This started with political opponents, but eventually came to include those staying neutral in the conflict between she and Victor, and even those she deemed "insufficiently loyal"
Guess someone has not been reading the wiki and reporting all that is there, but cherry picking facts to try and justify the false statements being made.
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StormLancer
05/22/22 08:59 PM
98.172.252.206
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Hey ghost rider, you ever get the impression some here have dictator fetishes? I mean I am getting serious "Notice me Senpai" vibes.
But on a serious note, Katherine was a violent tyrant who's goal to turn the Federated Commonwealth into the Lyran Alliance. And with her assuming the throne while he was on the invasion of the clan space as part of Operation Bulldog. Katherine started the Civil War when she started coming down on Victor loyal worlds with battlemechs. Victor was general of the SLDF at the time and trying to deal with the problem of the Wobbies.
Man some people need to just chill on the Lore. Canon is canon, everything else belongs in the Fan Fiction section.
Storm Lancers Mercenary Company Motto
We are but Human, Lancers charging the storm.
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ghostrider
05/22/22 09:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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The problem occurs when a decent conversation gets going, and someone gets lonely for arguments over canon facts verse fan fiction. This conversation had taken a few forms, and got to the point of having threads shut down because of them. Alt has it's place, but not in discussions of canon discussions.
I have had outbursts in the past that lead towards being the bully. Not gonna lie about that. I do back off of it when told I am getting bad. Fan fiction isn't a bad thing. Some have good basis and takes care of holes, while the makers tend to avoid saying it is the only way forward. The problem I get is the people that say their concepts fix all the holes in canon, when they don't. Those ones seem to create the time paradox, where things are being 'fixed' before anyone in the game knows what is coming.
I will state this time and again. I don't have anything beyond BMR for rule sets and stopped getting new books right after the clans were stopped invading the IS. Some of the information I have is old and no longer valid. Some of it was never repeated in the newer books and was not revoked either. So errors on my part do happen.
Again. I admit that.
Now if you have something good to discuss, we could sure use it.
Like within the lore, do you think Melissa would have rescinded Gemini when she was in charge?
Should the main ship yard in the CC have been at least raided during the 4th war?
Should avocado toast become the new meal of choice in the DC?
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StormLancer
05/22/22 10:01 PM
98.172.252.206
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Avacado on toast should be a IS staple.
And as pertaining to Gemini, I believe that Melissa would have informed Marik of the truth. I think she would have felt that by that time the stabilization of the Inner Sphere was paramount and a deep deception of that scale would be tantamount to a declaration of war.
The whole Cappellan Confederation should have been steam rolled in the 4th Succession War. Never trust a Liao even as a mercenary.
So let's talk about the Inner Sphere dead zones, is it possible for outcast societies to exist and flourish in the "pass by" systems in-between the deep sphere worlds?
Storm Lancers Mercenary Company Motto
We are but Human, Lancers charging the storm.
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ghostrider
05/23/22 01:23 AM
45.51.181.83
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It is likely that there are a lot of communities existing along routes that few, if any really know about. Too many worlds were thought destroyed during the first two wars, and so many pirates seem to be hidden near population centers. A few merchants might be supporting those communities as they pass thru the system they are in, dropping off supplies, while still receiving payments.
Without having outside contact beyond a few, most governments wouldn't be bothered to look for them. And this goes for inside the IS as well as outside. The issue comes down to the number of jumpships. The context of if jumpships are required to feed worlds changed from the initial concept to being used mainly for luxury goods or military traffic.
As Jumpships and Dropships resource book stated the IS had about 2000 jumpships total, this was discussed that there is no way that could support worlds needing to import food to survive, yet the stories continued to suggest worlds could be starved if blockaded, or shipments delayed. So logic flaws have been pounded quite a bit from issues like this.
The CC is where the issues of not wanting to remove some of the fans favorite nation in the 4th war, so they had to come up with a reason not to completely wipe it out. I understand them, but don't agree with their conclusion. But to sell more products, they needed to keep the CC alive.
One possible route would have been to wipe out the leadership beyond Candace, and allow her to take over the CC instead of just the area she ruled before and during the war, St. Ives.
This does take away the story line of removing FS troops because of hatred among the occupational troops, and replacing them with LC troops by Melissa. It also removes the 2nd SL issues later on. This depends on how far in advance the developers were thinking.
To be honest, and has been stated before, the developers got into trouble with what to do when they came up with the whole FC to begin with. They may have had the clans figured out when doing so, but I don't know.
Not sure how long you have been reading the site, But most here believe the Jihad to be complete garbage, so most don't bother talking about that.
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Requiem
05/23/22 07:35 AM
101.185.82.214
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Guess someone has not been reading the wiki and reporting all that is there, but cherry-picking facts to try and justify the false statements being made.
Can you please provide an explanation as to when Hanse Davion dies, his position of First Price is influenced by that of the Lyran Archon’s position?
As per https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Melissa_Steiner_(31st_c.) her title is Regent and remains as Regent – that is the position of First Princess is NEVER offered.
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… stopping the biggest military threat to his people shouldn't have been his first priority. I mean, what good is learning to rule a nation that won't be there in the coming years.
Yes I agree … what good is it learning to be field officer when his future is that of remaining within the C&C and learning how to direct the entire FC military to achieve an objective.
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Katherine accused Victor …
Please re-read, as Katherine never openly accused Victor of anything … more subtle measures were used …. Thus you can never pin any of the accusations upon Katherine.
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Katherine killed her mother
Still playing this card when no one, not even Victor, can prove this – there is only supposition to the fact!
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This fact is why the civil war happened.
And her I thought it was due to Victor misinterpreting the facts as to his bother’s assassination … that in reality was a kidnapping.
If he hadn’t been so fixated on his sister, and the desire to achieve revenge against her, he may have come to the conclusion that his bother was kidnapped and may have actually begun a search to find and rescue him – rather that let him disappear …
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Use of chemical warfare
First it is a war crime where the highest officer on the field is held culpable …
Second the enemy will use it to discredit your House etc. via media reports.
Third it may boomerang on you – Kentares Massacre for example.
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So your where's the proof doesn't hold up.
Beg to differ …
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So Katherine did not learn to pilot a mech in the FC.
So?
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Katherine used whatever means necessary to attain power, This is in the wiki under Katherine's section as well.
So let me get this straight, during an armed conflict it is wrong to initiate defensive measures against 5th Column / Partisans / Spies.
Suggest googling US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/23/22 09:58 AM
70.118.172.64
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Removing one of the main Houses would sell products if done right. They could have that be the focal point of the whole thing, the push to defeat the CapCon, or the FedSuns could be a full-blown multi-year(s) storyline that if written well could offer more to the game and universe than some of the other stuff we have seen.
There is a ton of potential for a new House to rise in the former FWL space and one that isn't a copy of the old Marik one. Houses should be falling, not lingering on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/23/22 11:49 AM
45.51.181.83
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In turn she was beloved by all in both realms, and not even the most hardline conservatives dared to oppose her publicly. Melissa Steiner-Davion almost single-handedly rallied the two realms to rebuild the Federated Commonwealth after the Clan Invasion and was poised to lead it into a new renaissance.[6]
That statement is a large reason why Katherine had Melissa killed. Katherine could never have achieved anything close to this, so her wanted title of goddess of the FC would never have been done.
Where in the history of the IS did a leader that was a pilot, never step back into the unit they were trained to use, and enter combat once becoming leader? NOW READ THIS BEFORE answering as this pertains to the SL era and beyond, not while humanity was bound to Terra.
What good is learning to fight when you will be bound to C&C? Really. Think about questions before asking them. What good is a leader in a war, when they don't know the first thing about war? Not learning how to conduct a war is far worse then jumping ranks. An RCT is bad enough to lose, but to have complete regions of space lost to mistakes is far worse. Civilians die in great numbers when you lose that much territory. And no, Victor did not lose large amounts of troopers due to bad decisions in the field. He lost them to unknown circumstances showing up. Even the great merc leaders have had that happen. Also the developers needed plot armor, and that was it.
Katherine did accuse Victor of a lot of things. Her suggestions did not say 'Victor killed mom' but things like how could he remain in the field and not come back for the funeral? All statements like that pointed towards accusing him of the crime.
I can say the Wolverines were never set up, but actually did the bombing. Why? Because it was never proven in a court of law. And before you say it was printed saying they did, remember your argument with Katherine.
You mean having Melissa still alive, would have set off the chain of events for a civil war even if his brother was kidnapped? And you suggest no logic flaws in the alt?
Again, you miss the large point. If there is no one that can punish criminals such as Kali Liao, then being a war criminal means nothing, but a rallying point to remove her. Until it happens, they are free to do what ever they want.
The issue of Katherine learning to use a mech in the clans is yet another false 'fact' thrown in by someone to try and justify more lies in their argument. This is but the latest in a long line of this action. This is also not an ooops, as the very article referred to, was posted a few times. This was a purposeful misrepresentation of the facts.
Again, context has been ignored. It was gain power by any means necessary. That refers to her entire actions of abusing everything she could to obtain that power. Including killing family members. Not sure were deployment of intel recon in a physical combat comes in. Unless you are trying to suggest she was fighting a war to become the person that can order entire worlds destroyed for not praising her, while kissing her feet. Asking for a blessing as she stomps on yet another innocent persons head.
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Karagin
05/23/22 02:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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In the books, they did let it be hinted that Victor sent Katherine an HPG message saying "Just Bury the B****" or something similar and she did use that as a detractor against him. And she did hammer his time spent playing army vs leading. That was one of her main fallback points.
I thought her having to learn to pilot a mech was part of Vlad's breaking her to his control and his way of "showing love"...or did his alt become fact while I was out of town?
Context gets ignored all the time. I have been accused of it when I point out issues with the piss-poor WoB Ubermesh storyline. Yet, everything I pointed out, was the same levels the other groups in the game worked under. Also, I noticed that many of the friends of TPTB took everything personally and had the attitude of how dare you or anyone question this amazing work. The best one I got from a not so long ago, 15 years back, was that those of us who haven't had anything published shouldn't be telling those who have what is wrong with the product. The hubris of that statement explains a lot of why and how of some of the other drama I have heard about happening behind the scenes at FanPro and CGL. And in a way, we are seeing it here in this discussion as well.
IT does seem that is indeed what is being suggested that Katherine was on her way to being a combination of Amaris and every other insane nutjob in the game rolled into one character, because after all that trope is never over played or abused in writing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/23/22 02:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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So the double of Joshua, I could have sworn we covered this unless Requiem is ignoring anything he doesn't like, wait..., Victor didn't know about it at first, that was made VERY clear when it was brought to his attention. Hanse set it up to run like any other dark operations project, with a limited number of people knowing limited information about it.
Then I do believe he considered canceling and was talked out of it because if it was ended it could still mean war in the worst-case scenario or even worse in the long term, AT THE TIME, was the cutting off of weapons kits to rearm existing mechs so they could meet the Clans on a more even field of combat. I doubt Katherine would have ended it either if her advisors and other sycophants had explained it and how it would benefit her and her wants. She was never a leader, she was a puppet and a fool. She wanted to control and rule, Victor wanted neither of those.
Now I am a bit confused, why does it sound like we are giving his Alt any standing? It's fan-fiction, it's not canon, it's not even Apocryphal Product, which is NOT canon but has been minded for things to add into the canon leaving all of the other stuff not minded or taken as NOT canon in shape or idea.
(Really wish some would understand that just because TPTB takes an item from something and make it canon doesn't change the status of the rest of the publication. A PRIME example from Star Wars. Dark Horse Comics comes up with two Jedi of their own: Aayla Secura and Aayla Secura, old George himself likes BOTH so he tells Dark Horse hey I am going to use these in the next movies and such. Dark Horse is cool! Now that didn't make ANYTHING about the Dark Horse version of the two canon, OTHER THAN basic stuff, like name, species, things like that. The rest of the Dark Horse SW stuff IS NOT CANON nor was it Apocryphal. Really wish folks here would understand that.)
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/23/22 02:47 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Hey ghost rider, you ever get the impression some here have dictator fetishes? I mean I am getting serious "Notice me Senpai" vibes.
I prefer the title of Supreme Emporer and Onibous Beloved Savior and Ruler of all Life and Ideas. However, you can just call me Kaagin. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (05/23/22 02:48 PM)
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ghostrider
05/23/22 04:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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No alt boost here. The statement was Katherine learned to pilot a mech to become leader of the FS portion of the FC. You can guess who came up with that. The wiki paste was to show that statement to be a lie. Funny how using the wiki shows just how little the rest of it is ignored in order to promote a lie. More then a few times, the posted location shows just how little canon information is actually used in arguing canon faults. It seems everything comes from the only viable solution to the games issues.
There is no one solution that covers it.
The term Bovine Excrement Administrator comes to mind about the only solution for canon issues comes to mind.
And I prefer the title of 'Lord Emperor of All' so you all have to address me as such.
Using holy terms just doesn't sound right, as I am not a religious figure, nor do I want to be.
As with all fan fiction, most have something worthwhile in them. Technically, the approved novels are fan fiction, as they bend and destroy some of the rules to get the story out, but a decent amount of them are entertaining. Either that, or the developers don't bother with reading them before print, and removing the crap that doesn't work in the game.
Another instance is during the 4th war with Kathil. The use of the energy transfers to take out a drop ship, but yet has never been used before or since is one of them. There has to be multiple worlds that could have set this up for anti ship defenses. Or powered a full ground based energy defense network in times of crisis.
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Requiem
05/23/22 05:52 PM
101.185.82.214
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so her wanted title of goddess of the FC would never have been done.
Nt: this includes information that some may find disturbing – due to the Alt Universe it promotes as an explanation of the question asked and answered – you have been warned.
Then why does the position of King / Queen’s Mother exist whereby they give up the throne – allow their child to rule – and yet they continue to support their child’s policies and procedures?
For Katherine to achieve her desired position of “Goddess” one would use Melissa’s popularity as a springboard to ascend to greater heights.
Melissa offered the throne to Victor, thus once Victor is no more there is nothing to suggest that she would not offer the throne to Katherine!
Once Katherine takes the throne (with her mother at her side) this will assist in ensuring a stable transition of power as well as a transition of love and adoration of the people. Also a heathy dose of sympathy for the loss of Victor in battle against the Clans – can also be used to reinvigorate the people in their fight against the Clans – whist also providing that common touch of yes we too have lost a loved one to these evil Clans – we must fight on together … kind of mentality throughout the FC … done correctly through the media / political assistants throughout the FC and yes Katherine’s popularity can rise to the position of “Goddess”.
How many times has media and a good backstory promoted someone to the limelight as vastly influential and respected person to whom the majority of the leaders of the world and their institutions have flocked to support … there is one like this right now, but he is a man, with a beautiful woman in the position this will just intensify the outpouring of emotions.
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Where in the history of the IS did a leader that was a pilot, never step back into the unit they were trained to use, and enter combat once becoming leader?
Would Peter Davion (2899-2961) be considered?
Still does not change the fact – for a leader of a vast stella empire to lead they must do so from the C&C bunker – they have no point being on the front line whatsoever as being there just distracts from the mission and undermines the regional chain of command, to which the local forces have developed over a long period of time.
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What good is learning to fight when you will be bound to C&C?
We all have our positions in war. For some that is the front lines – others rear echelon logistics – and others command.
We all have our crosses to bear, some more than others, this is the duty of being the Ruler – they no longer have the duty to command on the front lines – their duty is to command over all! – which is a far more arduous and time-consuming task!
Or should David Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in Europe added to his position to command the Big Red One? Or for that matter should he have included in his position as President of the United States (53-61) the position of Commander of the Big Red One in addition to that of his duty as President?
So what good is learning to fight? – it enabled him to take command in Europe during WW2 and lead the Allies to Victory – and it enabled him to become President and lead the Free World – both positions of high command.
So can you see the absurdity of adding in Commander of the Big Red One at both of these two critical junctions in his life?
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As for what good is a leader in a war, when they don’t know the first thing about war?
This is why the military provides civilian leaders with experts to assist them in their decision making.
How many US Presidents have never seen a day’s combat and yet have led their forces into battle or for that matter other leaders … How about Franklin D Roosevelt …. Who was only the Assistant Secretary to the Navy. Or how about Margaret Thatcher?
So stop and Really think about it.
You cannot have a Leader of a House micromanaging war zones … in command you have to trust your regional commanders to do their job.
Should Roosevelt have taken the aircraft carriers out during Midway – rather than trusting Nimitz as the two had differing views of the situation.
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He lost them to unknown circumstances showing up.
Poor diddums Victor, it wasn’t his fault …. Sorry but Truman war correct “when you are a minister, the buck stops with you.” Attempting to place blame on “unknown circumstances” is just a cop out!
They were in command thus the responsibility falls to them.
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how could he remain in the field and not come back for the funeral?
And this has been going on for how long now in the media … why did that Governor leave the worst snow storm in history to go to Hawaii? …. Every media organisation would have asked this … they were just getting ahead of the news cycle ….
Also where is the crime here? It is perception of facts only … a reality that Victor should have had drummed into him since the first day he could understand the concept – there are always different factions at court each vying for power - to survive you have to understand this at a VERY young age if you are part of the Royal Family …..
And if Victor didn’t understand this it just demonstrates that the writers also didn’t understand and really should have been let go for not undertaking appropriate research.
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I can say the Wolverines were never set up, but actually did the bombing. Why?
As stated many times can you please read the novel first! Or how about the wiki notes?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolverine
“Unbeknownst to Clan Wolverine, Clan Widowmaker operatives had stolen one of the nuclear devices from the Brian Cache, and prepared it for detonation in their capital city of Great Hope. Khan Jason Karrige then activated the device when he, the ilKhan, and Clan Widowmaker forces approached the city.”
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You mean having Melissa still alive, would have set off the chain of events for a civil war even if his brother was kidnapped? And you suggest no logic flaws in the alt?
Chain of events: Canon
Building destroyed by explosives – no body found – Victor assumes that it is the work of his sister – he then goes on media blaming her for his brother’s death and declares war on her … ie he uses the supposed death of his brother as a pretext to start a war … “ie. what we have here is another Gulf of Tonkin incident.”
Chain of events: Alt Universe
Building destroyed by explosives – no body found – Victor initially assumes that it is the work of his sister – However, a detective on the ground actually finds evidence as to WOB kidnapping his brother …. So what does Victor do next, actually go after the true culprits or go after his sister and white wash the whole thing?
Also if Melissa was still alive wouldn’t she ask for calm until all the facts are in before some one leaps off a cliff and there is no turning back?
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punish criminals such as Kali Liao
Again you really need to do your research first,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kali_Liao
“She ordered the Black May attacks in 3062, for which she was tried and convicted in a Star League court and sentenced to internal exile on Highspire.”
And
“On 30 November 3073, Death Commandos arrested Duchess Kali Liao on Highspire and transported her to Sian to be presented to the Chancellor. Kali Liao was presented to Sun-Tzu Liao on 28 December and formally charged with collaborating with the enemy and treason.”
Thus we see the return of the war crimes court that was so lacking in the game, and also that members of your own House are still answerable to their Liege Lord for their actions.
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That refers to her entire actions of abusing everything she could to obtain that power.
And ruin her image as the darling of the media as well as a pacifist and the successor of her mothers ambition for peace … sorry but no!
As a ruler she is the gauntlet within the silk glove, an image she strives to protect!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/23/22 07:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Another instance is during the 4th war with Kathil. The use of the energy transfers to take out a drop ship, but yet has never been used before or since is one of them. There has to be multiple worlds that could have set this up for anti ship defenses. Or powered a full ground based energy defense network in times of crisis.
Having such systems, even if just on important worlds SHOULD have been standard in the game since day one, the idea is very 80s. Cough Ion Cannon Cough Cough.
The idea that a novel tells a story is the important part, it can bend the game rules to make things work for the story, however, using jump jets to kill a major character, poor writing, using nukes that then turn into FAE bombs poor writing, etc...or better lazy writing. You want to pull the reader into the story and make them feel like they are a part of it, yet many of the novels fail at that part and fail badly.
Katherine had major physiologic issues, and really that part should have been brought up by Victor as the Civil War Story went on, yet we never once saw anything that showed her in that kind of light, no major trauma that would set her on the path to regicide, none of the normal tells that go with that kind of behavior. As for using the wiki...well like all wikis it's open-source and is as honest as the ones putting the information in it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/23/22 07:50 PM
45.51.181.83
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The alt version, which has no real place in this canon conversation, is flawed for several reasons. First being Katherine was so full of herself, the idea that she needed Melissa is wrong. Second, she needed to erase Melissa from the universe in order to hurt Victor. As Katherine has been shown to not care about anyone but herself, there is no way she would share the spotlight with anyone. A fact that has been constantly ignored.
The fact is governments run even without their leader being in C&C. There were more then a few times that a leader was not chosen to fill the position, and yet the nation still existed and functioned afterwards. For more then a few reigns, the government ran despite the leader. Had the leader actually run things like they wanted to, the nation would cease to exist. This is true for history as well as the game.
Did Eisenhower come from a heirarch line of warriors, were you are expected to learn to fight, and do so to prove you can command the troops properly? No. He was elected to rule, not part of a family line. Traditions dictate whether a ruler is considered worthy or not. You must earn the respect of your military. Otherwise, you are more likely to have them perform far below their abilities.
In the old times, a person could become the captain of the guard by saving a royal member. This did not mean they were able to rule even the guards.
And those born and trained did not mean they could rule either.
So Katherine was the reason the Falcons decided to invade the LA? It was her fault for being in charge when the FWL invaded because of Joshua? We know it was her fault the entire chain of events happened. She chose to undermine the entire FC with her hunger for power.
Where was it stated that the Wolverines were cleared of the charges of the nuke? They weren't in a court of law. The books said they were, but according to you, a court had to decide innocence or guilty. Or is the fact Katherine was guilty of killing her mother, but does that follow the same concept as this does?
So Victor would have set off the Civil war if Melissa wasn't killed by Katherine? This is what you are saying? The response was about Peters abduction, which probably wouldn't have happened if Melissa wasn't killed. The fact that the entire chain of events after Melissa's death would not have happened. It couldn't have happened. Katherine would not have the LC throne to even begin to use against Victor.
Or did the blue monkey swing by the yellow bird screaming 'Darth Vader is here'?
Did Kali actual pay for the crimes? Or did she get a slap on the wrist and come back for more? She was not executed for her crimes and returned to commit even more. Yeah, Real punishment there.
The actual print says Katherine was abusing her powers.
Incase you didn't read this part in the wiki or the post: Katherine generally allowed her military commanders free rein to prosecute the war against her brother's supporters as they saw fit, as she focused on rooting out insurrectionists and other supporters of her brother. Arrests, sessions of torture and executions became common events, especially on New Avalon.[7]
She also demonstrated distinct signs of pettiness and cruelty, regularly using her nation's resources to persecute anyone she deemed an enemy. This started with political opponents, but eventually came to include those staying neutral in the conflict between she and Victor, and even those she deemed "insufficiently loyal"
So yes. Since she had already purged a lot of the media reporting the truth, her image still was not the pacifist healer she wanted.
Once the truth got out, her image was ruined by her actions.
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ghostrider
05/23/22 08:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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Just had a major thought about the history of the 1st war and the invasion of the FS.
The retcon of mobile HPGs would have removed the surprise attack that continued into the FS, as the main SL HPG network would not have been used, but the mobile HPG one would have. It would have been in use by a few branches of the government, with intel being the main one. This would allow information to be sent without the SL being able to 'listen' in. Even on warships, this would have told a better story of what was going on, as warships and even normal fleets, as well as worlds/systems relaying that information.
And they would be continuing to send information until they were all founds and taken.
So the unknown attack, would not have lasted more then a world or two in.
Given secret bases and such, mobile HPGs would be used there as well. So something like Camelot Command should have had a few stationed there, which was never found. As Comstar did not have the chance to destroy them, they would have been in the hands of Snord.
As they were never found in any caches either, there is a huge issue here.
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Karagin
05/23/22 08:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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It sounds like this Alt has way too many Aliens Space Bats in it like the logic is only set to work one way. Like the trope that the only way BOTH Amris and the WoB pulled off their actions was because the Terran nobles and such were working with them. And while that might be true for some, not all would be, but that bit is not important because the majority would because well the Alien Space Bats said that has to happen or else the storyline doesn't work because logic would play into things, and prove that not all would be for this and would be against it.
Guess the Fed-Suns should have fallen during the 4th War since several of the nobles were running their own operations and playing everything off for their own outcome, same in the Combine.
Katherine didn't plan for all things, she tried to bully her way through things that didn't just go her way. There was no way she was getting to the next Frist Lord of the Second Star League, Yet, I am sure the Alt will tell us how all the other rulers wanted her to have it. We know Katherine had Omiko killed to cause her brother grief and to hamper his ability to command his forces.
A simple look at the actual history of the houses and one would see that not all the rulers were military trained, in fact, many had basic level training and quite a large number never fought a battle at all. So this idea that she was forced to do anything is crazy. She had her claim to the throne, she pressed it, and she caused the Civil War because of her lust for power and control. Did I mention she was a psychopath? Katherine did what all dictators do, she took control of anything that made her look bad or spoke out against her.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/23/22 08:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Just had a major thought about the history of the 1st war and the invasion of the FS.
The retcon of mobile HPGs would have removed the surprise attack that continued into the FS, as the main SL HPG network would not have been used, but the mobile HPG one would have. It would have been in use by a few branches of the government, with intel being the main one. This would allow information to be sent without the SL being able to 'listen' in. Even on warships, this would have told a better story of what was going on, as warships and even normal fleets, as well as worlds/systems relaying that information.
And they would be continuing to send information until they were all founds and taken.
So the unknown attack, would not have lasted more then a world or two in.
Given secret bases and such, mobile HPGs would be used there as well. So something like Camelot Command should have had a few stationed there, which was never found. As Comstar did not have the chance to destroy them, they would have been in the hands of Snord.
As they were never found in any caches either, there is a huge issue here.
The mobile HPGs themselves are not the issue, it's how they are explained, that is the issue. The would have been a big head ache for ComStar, the idea of someone finding one or a former SLDF unit taking their when they joined a House military, yeah that is the issue here. The Houses should have at least gotten a couple and we all know that even back then, those things would have been pulled from the front lines and into research. The kind of research that has layers of protection and such that ComStar would still be looking for these things right up to and through the Clan Invasion.
Also remember, the Clans had HPGs on their warships.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 12:41 AM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of when the FS was invaded by the DC at the start of the 1st war, suggested that the coms was in such a disarray, that the AFFS had no idea of what was going on, or so I am lead to believe.
If there were mobile HPGs in the actual timeline, they should have been used by the intel department, which would have reported the invasion even if the others didn't. This isn't black box concept, but actual equipment that wasn't SL spec ops only sort of thing.
This is why the retcon of items throws a shaky story into the toilet.
Had this been a thing when they first wrote the back story of the 1st war, it would have been different, at least enough to cover the mobile HPGs.
Ok, so the wiki suggests, but doesn't say completely, that the Mobile ones were TH/SL only. The concept of defecting units bringing them would definitely be a thing.
During the first war, it should be assumed the houses did research the main HPG networks, as the SL, meaning Comstar, was in the process of trying to rebuild the network. I would think during the Amaris war, some facilities were taken over and looked at, and blamed on the periphery. And this is not to say the SLDF did not use local labor to keep up the network.
One more thing about the question of the civil war if Melissa was still alive. Victor only started hating Katherine when he found out Katherine killed their mother. So the entire history would not be there. Katherine would never have gotten a hold of the LC, and Gemini would not have gone the way it did in canon.
Edited by ghostrider (05/24/22 12:44 AM)
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Karagin
05/24/22 08:37 AM
70.118.172.64
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IF and I say IF Melissa was still alive, we know she had plans to step down and allow Victor to rule. Now if was still alive, she would have been a voice to keep some of Victor's second-guessing in check, add in Cox and others. Now the question is did she know about Gemni? Did Hanse fill her in? She might have been able to go directly to the fake and try to smooth things over or explain it away like the double was there to keep people from messing with or getting to Joshua. Which might, maybe, possibly cause things to not become a war. As far as a Civil War if Melissa was alive, I doubt it would have happened, not as we saw it. More of Ryan Steiner playing games and folks like the Sandvols doing similar. Which in turn sparks a limited Civil War. And we could wargame all that out to see the possible outcomes.
The HPGs, I have always thought that the ones in the Houses as the Star League fell would have been taken over very quickly by House forces, and that is why numerous times I have asked questions about similar traled questions. Now here is a better question, is the HPGs found on Terra or in the Sol System needed to make the whole network correctly?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 12:22 PM
45.51.181.83
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Interesting question. I can see both sides of that.
Keeping control of the network would be a priority, yet having everything shut down because of one relay sounds wrong as well.
Given the fact WOB took over the network, and nothing happened to the other stations, it would appear it did not have that option.
As the DC had a decent relationship with Comstar, they, along with the FC would have had some issues.
I don't know what happened with the network crashing during the dark ages time line, so can use the information given there on how the whole system went down.
Given the importance of Terra, wouldn't they have multiple stations on world?
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Requiem
05/24/22 02:27 PM
101.185.82.214
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Quote:
Katherine had major physiologic [phycological?] issues
And Victor was such a normal individual? Especially when you compare him to all his siblings.
As for the parricide / regicide – this appears to have been tacked on at the last second as a plot twist – and rather than improving the story it is the complete opposite (in my opinion).
Quote:
Flawed
First, there is no evidence that Katherine is ‘full of her herself’ prior to the assassination. What we see is a dutiful daughter assisting her mother in her duties (and learning) in order to assist the FC and its people – i.e. exactly what you would see from a scion of a noble house who in the event of her bother’s death will be called upon to take the throne.
What is being allured to here is considered in the future and transposed back into the past.
Second, where is all the angst in hurting Victor coming from? We never see this in any of the novels leading up to the assassination, it is just there one day and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever … as a writing plot twist this was poorly executed from the get-go! (again in my opinion).
She is also willing to share the spotlight if it furthers her ambition – did she not find romance along the way in a friend of Victor’s?
Something that is also completely overlooked is the fact that Katherine’s intelligence far exceeds that of Victor’s … a point that has been constantly ignored.
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The fact is governments run even without their leader being in C&C.
Is a complete load of BS as you require the chain of command in place and functioning to ensure the military are working within their remit … how many times has it been demonstrated within sitcoms, movies, books etc. where the President is sitting within C&C with her/his military advisers and they ask the question “What are your orders … to which it is replied STRIKE in a commanding voice – and as the go command has been given the military act and strike at the bad guys.
I would also like to point out that if the President is incapacitated … all powers are transferred to the Vice-President … and thus the go command comes from them.
As the idea that the military can act o their own orders equates to a COUP by the chiefs of staff over the elected President – or in this case the Liege Lord of their House!
Not having their Liege Lord, therefore, within the C&C or their Regent will ensure the complete destruction of the Chain of Command and the paralysation of the military!
So yay, as Victor goes swanning about as a commander of military unit and unless he actually has a regent on the Capitol World and within the C&C he has just paralysed the entire FC military from taking any action as it will require his authorisation to enact any action against any target short of a full war.
Also can you please point out a time where a military action was undertaken and where their civilian leader / liege lord did not provide authorisation to do so.
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Did Eisenhower come from a hierarchical line of warriors
Sorry but this is irrelevant point – the point as stated regarding how to command in the field of battle remains as stated above.
The point is that it is ludicrous to even consider for a Liege Lord to take to field unless in the defence of the Capitol itself … and even then you would expect the pretorian guard to back them up!
Or do you expect that all the governments have decided to slip back into the early / middle / dark age of humanity as it was such a magnanimous means of governing the people and the people will be oh so happy to know that all their freedoms won under Magna Carta etc. have been thrown away and they are little better than their Liege Lord’s chattels.
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So Katherine was the was the reason the Falcons decided to invade the LA?
Hypothesis not backed up with fact, under the law (that is what she did is completely on the up-and-up), as at that time she chose to save the Lyran half from a war of Victor’s own making, and had nothing at all to do with a hunger for power.
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Where was it stated that the Wolverines were cleared of the charges of the nuke?
They were never cleared.
However, if you had actually read the novel, you would know that the charges were fabricated, and you would also know that Niki knew the charges were BS as he had a vid of the theft proving the Wolverines innocence – he allowed them to stand (buried the evidence) so that he could maintain / remain in absolute control over all of the remaining Clans – as at this stage they were little more than obedient pets.
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Melissa
Lets get one thing straight Melissa was the glue that was holding their family together – without their mother they fractured and each child sought to fill the void, that was their mother, in their own unique way.
Victor transferred to being a military commander and refused to be anything else, as he is only the leader of the FC and who would want that when he has the Revenants to command?
Katherine buried herself in state craft, power and the ruling of the nation
Yvonne became a basket case and became withdrawn.
Arthur became a Sandoval – as he found in them a substitute family he never had with his other siblings.
Peter lost the plot and chose exile than actually doing anything meaningful with his life / changing himself for the better – however, this is not important as he is only how many slots away from being the ruler of the FC?
Which demonstrates his complete lack of understanding as to his position – thus we can say he is incredibly self-absorbed with no sense of duty.
So all and all Hanse and Melissa produced a wonderful litter of deranged individuals …
So if Melissa was still alive – you should see a more functional family – maybe even some family bonds - there would have never been a Joshua Incident – the breaking up of the FC would never have occurred, the Civil War would never have occurred …. and the list goes on ….
As for Peter’s abduction – that could still occur – however the response comes down to discovery of evidence as to whom perpetrated the crime …
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Kali
How you evaluate her sentencing depends upon your point of view – however been locked in a palace (where she can never leave) on a world that is in the grips of a never-ending ice age sounds like fun?
Her prison is more along the lines of those in Europe (and those US wealthy white-collar crimes) than those in the US.
The punishment must be evaluated from the point of view of Kali’s own mental state – if she herself found the accommodation intolerable – then yes there was a degree of punishment.
That is unless you believe in state sponsored executions – and then you would immediately demand the death penalty.
Thus the sentencing depends on your own values and how you as an individual view crime and punishment.
Who do you side with in Les Miserables – Valjean, Cosette or Javert?
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The actual print says Katherine was abusing her powers
And if you had read The Price by Niccolo Machiavelli you would know that what is going on here is absolutely normal for a ruler.
As far as any Machiavellian leader would consider her actions reasonable.
Thus once again it depends on your point of view as how a government and their Liege Lord operates as to the questions of moral right and wrong …
Thus the ide that she is a psychopath now becomes debateable.
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Once the truth got out
How is that working out currently in so many countries around the world currently?
Also, the “truth” never did get out as Victor buried the so called evidence – i.e. it was never shown on main stream vid news / current affairs as it was filled with innuendo and assumptions … there was never any hard facts! They had to make it up Starling’s paintings etc …. Thus they lied to get to the final “proof” – thus any evidence would be thrown out as coming from the poisoned tree argument.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 05:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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Dutiful daughter killing her mother? Especially since that mother was creating a peaceful realm, not some insane ruler?
For reading between the lines, and comprehending everything, you missed out on a few things. But then the alt is the only solution to the story, or so you believe. With the death of her father, she became more and more unstable. She betrayed everything and every one in the FC. I think you really need a new dictionary, as the terms used don't match the situations.
The leader tells his military what they want. The military then provides orders to the units to make it happen. So take out the clans at all costs means they have free reign to take out the clans. The leader does NOT sit an advise every single action done. He lets those in charge do what they do best. Something most leaders can't. The control the forces available to them.
Also the leader do NOT tell every department how to operate. General orders are left and they do their best to make things happen, and come out for the better. Or do you think the leader sits in when the department of agriculture is going over how much grain came from a field, or if the drought will affect the crops in a region?
Yeah. The government runs on it's own. The leader steps in when something is wrong. Also, decisions can be made while they are away. Part of what regents do. How long did the SL government run without a leader when Richards parents died, and he was old enough to take control? How many others have done the same?
Did something change when Hanse died? Did they remove all those that worked for Hanse die with him? Or did they just switch from working with Hanse, to working with Melissa and then Victor? I'm confused with this. What changed other then the leader dying?
Irrelevant? Must be nice using the looking glass to ignore fact. For a nation that runs with heirs, something like military prowess is important and needs to be continued. This does not make the leader good at keeping food on the table, or running out of things like clothes. But it is very important to those that need to show they can be in the field.
Just go back to the alt threads, as you do not seem to understand anything but a fan fiction story line.
Removing the LC from the FC does help her greed for power. It shows Victor in a horrible light as well as weakening the FS portion of the nation. It erodes his popularity making him that much easier to deal with. It backfired on her some, as she was seen betraying the FC entirely. She removed LC troops from the Chaos march,which was given the Melissa and the LC.
Katherine knew the charges were real against her killing her mother. The Wolverines were never cleared in court. Katherine never was cleared in court. You don't see the very same thing here? Oh wait, the Wolverines were innocent while Katherine was guilty.
Glossed over the fact that without Katherine killing Melissa, Victor would not have hated Katherine enough to blame her? And with this, the civil war would never come about anyways, as Melissa was still the driving force behind the FC government? No comprehension here.
Funny. For demanding those that use WMD be punished severely, Kali seems to show otherwise. Her orders, and her cult needed to be wiped out. Period. Kali built up more power in exile, as she was only restrained physically, and was not prevented from contacting those outside of the 'prison'.
One a side note, the deaths she caused were slow painful ones. Not instantaneous.
What does some writing outside of the actual story done by the developers have to do with the story line? Nothing.
Yet, some how, you think it changes the entire story to fit the alt. It doesn't. Katherine was a psycopath. She would kill anyone to be in charge. That was proven. Outside books have nothing to do with the canon story line.
And if you read the canon story line as written, not adding in your concepts that aren't there, you would see the true facts of the story line. Instead, you keep coming up with things that didn't exist in the story to try and make you concepts true.
The story was put out, whether you want to believe it or not. Those that supported Katherine would have stated something to that effect. Otherwise, another civil war would have happened when this happened. It didn't so enough people found the truth and left it.
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Karagin
05/24/22 05:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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The House militaries have their chain of command. The House Ruler is ALWAYS the head of the military.
So Hanses died, which means his wife, Melissa is now the Head of the Federated Commonwealth Military, same generals and admirals, same staff, same junior officers, etc... those who were loyal to her husband are loyal to her. So when Victor took over after the death of his mother, these same officers are either going to remain loyal and stay at the posts or resign and go away.
Will Victor make changes within the Departments and will he encourage some to retire, yes that is normally what happens. In fact, ALL of the Houses have this happen, in fact, in two of them, a new head of state means many will be without their heads shortly.
I do not see what is irrelevant since we are covering things from the canon point of view with speculation as far as what could have happened or what we think should have happened, Yet we are not saying our Points of Speculation are facts, we are using them to move a conversation along. If you want your ALT written for you, then why not just ask us to do that, otherwise you are pulling a damn strawman argument and a no faith argument since you will change your "facts" the second you don't like canon take on things.
The only books that matter to the game are those put out by FASA, FANPRO, and CGL. These are novels, sourcebooks, TROs, scenario books, and things like that.
THEY DO NOT INCLUDE things like BATTLETECHNOLOY magazine or anything similar, nor do they include Fanzines like Future Wars, etc...NONE of those are canon at any level, regardless of what Fabby tries to claim in the Wiki.
Canon means a published book/item FROM the main writers in an approved OFFICIAL book/item. Period.
My fan-fiction ALT that has the WoB never getting to be the Ubermesh is just that, my fan-fiction, it means nothing to anyone else, even if they agree with me on the subject. The same goes for you ALT. It's not canon, it's not even remotely relevant to the topic of discussion.
Now, having said that, you can use something that could have happened if it's logical to counter a canon fact that is badly handled or a bad retcon, BUT you need to do so to show WHY you think your point is more logical than the canon version. So far you haven't done that, all you have done is repeat your point of view that you don't like warships and you feel the Clans are not good for the game. I don't believe the WoB Jihad storyline was good for the game, I really believe that it hurt the game and divided the fan base, and was poorly handled across the board. My opinion of course.
Katherine had no ability to rule, she wanted to control, those are two different things. Victor was not ready, he knew that, and many of his close advisors and friends knew that, as did many of his enemies. Yet Victor worked within his abilities and didn't try to abuse his power. Whereas his sister did not, she tried to do things she was not trained to do or understood the fine details of doing.
Her jumping into Clan space was both stupid, and illogical, yet she did it because she wanted it to happen and none of the YES men around her said anything but "Yes Ma'am" and off they went. The funny thing is even the bigger sci-fi franchises make similar asinine mistakes, Star Wars makes tons of them, and books could be written about the illogical plot moments in that franchise. Same with Star Trek.
Katherine would have made a play for power even if Melissia stepped down the day after Hanse died. She wanted to control the Fed-Com, not just rule. And really that issue starts with how she was raised. Something we know very little about. We have no real information on the lives of the heirs to Houses, both great and small, beyond what we saw in the Clan Trilogy and bits and pieces from other books. We know far more about how Clans' major and minor characters were raised than the Inner Sphere ones.
The Fed-Com really didn't start until Victory took the throne, and I believe this was mentioned in one of the sourcebooks and in one of the novels. So it was already on shaky footing before Victor could be sworn in and then the killing of his mother by Katherine and others who want to see it destroyed was the tipping point for its fall. The civil war was going to happen sooner or latter.
The canon happened, anything else is not canon, thus it didn't happen. This is why I laugh when folks are crying about you must paint your mechs to match a House, Clan, or Merc Unit. In reality, you do not have to do this at all. You don't even need to paint the miniatures. So when folks make these statements, they are asked to point us to a CANON rule book that states the mechs must be painted and that they then must be painted to a House/Clan or Merc unit in order to be allowed to be used. No one can ever provide the title of that rule book, because it doesn't exist. And the catch here is that they are bringing in their fan-fiction by trying to bring in rules from other miniatures games like WH40K.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 07:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The people crying about painting your mechs.
Unless you are a house unit, which you don't have a choose then, you will have to repaint them every time you change whom you work for. As for the lead figures, they must have stock in the companies that sell them, as I can not afford to have thousands of figures sitting around for the time I might need a Vindicator in 4th Sword of Light paint schemes.
As they look better, most of the time, it does not change how they work on the map. One issue I can see is not remembering which atlas belongs to who when playing. So identifying them is needed. That can be done with a few simple things, while not being painted a specific color scheme. And even then, you still have issues. The famous Steiner scout lance of all atlases comes to mind.
Yeah. A reflex cannon just does not work in the Battletech universe.
The shields are almost as bad.
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Karagin
05/24/22 08:00 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
The people crying about painting your mechs.
Unless you are a house unit, which you don't have a choose then, you will have to repaint them every time you change whom you work for. As for the lead figures, they must have stock in the companies that sell them, as I can not afford to have thousands of figures sitting around for the time I might need a Vindicator in 4th Sword of Light paint schemes.
As they look better, most of the time, it does not change how they work on the map. One issue I can see is not remembering which atlas belongs to who when playing. So identifying them is needed. That can be done with a few simple things, while not being painted a specific color scheme. And even then, you still have issues. The famous Steiner scout lance of all atlases comes to mind.
Yeah, it's a lot of fun watching them get up set when you field a lance or company of unpainted gray plastic or slightly off silver pewter miniatures.
Or my favorite is when they cry and I pull out the solid single color painted mechs. They get even more upset when I explain Red is Combine. Green is Laio, Purple is Marik, Blue is Davion and Gray is Steiner. Fun times.
Quote:
Yeah. A reflex cannon just does not work in the Battletech universe.
The shields are almost as bad.
Nor does the Wave Gun in the Mouth(TM) work either. But some would say they do because you know Fan-Fiction said so.
Shields, Axes, Swords, etc...all belong on Solaris VII in my opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 08:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Wait. Blue for Davion? I thought they used Yellow to depict them in canon sources, with Blue being Steiner.
No wonder why they cried.
They should be happy someone HAS some figures to bring to a game. Not all can afford them to begin with, and that was before the 10+ dollars per figure. The problem I had was no money, or no where I could get them. I am not big on internet shopping, as my debit and credit card aren't used unless absolutely necessary. Too easy for someone to hack the site, or line.
I want the transporter/teleporter units from either Star Trek or Star Gate. Instant transmission of forces directly into the enemy's store house to raid their supplies.
Though cloaks are a close second.
The ability to hyperspace jump directly into firing range of your ships is nice as well.
The swords in canon was a little much, as axes were fine. The shields just sound like a cheat to add more armor onto an arm, when the game has it's limits set. It makes some sense. But then the game suggests weight limits that can be picked up with the hands/arms, yet it doesn't restrict the weight of weapons that can be placed in the arms.
Though I wonder if the multi arm units would work. Hold the enemy in place while you carve them up.
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Requiem
05/25/22 08:53 AM
1.121.163.146
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Quote:
question
Before I begin, I have simple enquiry – in a game setting there is the Game Master (GM) and the Player Character (PC).
Can you please let me know how your players concluded that Katherine is “evil”, or even a “murderer” if all the information you’re PC only has access to is information supplied within the game – such as media sites etc.?
That is all information derived from novels are now excluded from the PC’s knowledge base.
So when you talk about Canon this and Canon that - ask yourself does my character have the ability to know this?
So how do you come to a decision to vilify Katherine?
Quote:
Some insane ruler
Can anyone, within a court of law, provide absolute evidence as to her “so called” guilt – where is the ‘smoking gun’ that proves she is guilty?
The problem is the story NEVER supplies the reader with this evidence. The ‘evidence’ is conjecture only!
As if Victor did have this evidence, then why didn’t he take it to trial?
The answer is quite clear – it will never hold up – and under the law innocent until proven guilty still stands or have we suddenly moved to France where is the other way – guilty until proven innocent?
Just because you don’t like her style of government does not make it wrong!
There are many ways to govern, and they all do not have to be liberal democratic …
Quote:
What changed other then the leader dying?
Really? What is the constitutional power of the First Price (unfortunately this has never been discussed thus general assumptions have to be made.)
The power to sign legislation – or remove it.
Command over the Armed Forces
The ability to raise and regulate military forces.
Declare combat operations / war etc. – has supreme operational command to authorise the deployment of forces.
Assign and ask for the opinion of cabinet members.
Grant Titles of Nobility
Grant pardons
Assign and receive ambassadors i.e. diplomatic corp.
Assign and remove judges
Appoint / remove executive officers – from all government agencies.
The ability to enter into treaties.
Enforce the law …
Quell civil turmoil, rebellions and insurrections
Powers to manage the national affairs and priority of the House’s government.
Can unilaterally issue rules, regulations, instructions etc …
Public proclamations
Executive orders – binding force of the government. Upon government agencies as well as their citizenry.
Set the national budget – which includes taxation as well as the military budget.
The ability to set judicial law review and even interpretation.
The House’s political agenda
Implement legislative provisions
Signing a bill into law.
Vetoes do not exist here …
The ability to propose legislation and then turn it into law.
The ability to sway public opinion
Has the power over all spy / homeland security agencies
Power over the Federal reserve Bank and securities and exchange
A new ruler can appoint new staff members – aids, advisers and assistants.
Total control over Foreign Powers
Total Control over Emergency Powers
Also note that a House Lord doesn’t really have any constraints upon their power!
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Just go back to the alt threads, as you do not seem to understand anything but a fan fiction story line.
I see you can write it from the FS perspective – how about giving a try as to LC perspective?
Quote:
The Wolverines were never cleared in court. Katherine never was cleared in court.
You do realize that neither the Wolverines nor Katherine ever made it into a court room other than the court of public opinion thus the idea of innocent / guilty becomes incredibly subjective as to if you are LC or FS.
Quote:
Glossed over the fact that without Katherine killing Melissa, Victor would not have hated Katherine enough to blame her?
How many siblings have a streak of animosity towards each other? So comprehension is there …
Quote:
those that use WMD be punished severely, Kali seems to show otherwise.
Please not two different groupings
Group A – Military / Civilian individual who ordered / directed the use of the WMD; and
Group B – High Ranking Politician who has friends, influence at court and who has the ability to start a civil war should things get rough.
Kali is in the B Group thus making any sentencing dicey at the best of times. Go hard on her and how will some of the extreme members of the House take it?
Quote:
The Price by Niccolo Machiavelli - What does some writing outside of the actual story done by the developers have to do with the story line? Nothing.
You do realize it changes her personality from psychopath to Machiavellianism ….
History shows that both those who do not learn from history and those who do learn history are doomed to repeat it.
Quote:
It didn't so enough people found the truth and left it.
You do realize that at the end people were just sick and tired of the entire shemozzle on both sides – it had become an albatross around both their necks!
Thus when Victor retired to ComStar and he gave his sister to the Wolves (literally and figuratively)
Then appointed their two remaining siblings as heirs of each state many were more interested in the future than the past … problem is both of these siblings turned out to be absolutely useless!
After the initial honeymoon was over many would have been pining for their past leaders as it is quite clear to the people of both states these individuals are far more superior to the fools that have been forced upon them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/25/22 09:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Wait. Blue for Davion? I thought they used Yellow to depict them in canon sources, with Blue being Steiner.
No wonder why they cried.
They should be happy someone HAS some figures to bring to a game. Not all can afford them to begin with, and that was before the 10+ dollars per figure. The problem I had was no money, or no where I could get them. I am not big on internet shopping, as my debit and credit card aren't used unless absolutely necessary. Too easy for someone to hack the site, or line.
When I did up the single color lances, I didn't have yellow, I blue and Dark Gray, so...Davion Blue, Steiner Dark Grey. Plus it's fun to watch the 40K-now BT players cry over stupid crap. And then beat the BV munchkin force with a lot less BV force and watch them cry about cheating or something, yet that too can't be proven either. Even when you explain to them that hey you lost because you ran to the middle of the board to play Bash'em Sock'em Robots and I played the game as a TACTICAL maneuver game using the terrain, yeah that's how your munchkin BV force lost.
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The ability to hyperspace jump directly into firing range of your ships is nice as well
Yes, that is nice.
Quote:
The swords in canon was a little much, as axes were fine. The shields just sound like a cheat to add more armor onto an arm, when the game has it's limits set. It makes some sense. But then the game suggests weight limits that can be picked up with the hands/arms, yet it doesn't restrict the weight of weapons that can be placed in the arms.
Though I wonder if the multi arm units would work. Hold the enemy in place while you carve them up.
One maybe two mechs with the Hatchets was fine, now we have something eight or more, and every munchkin home design has the melee weapons, TSM, the right amount of heat to maximize that setup, and the normal elite pilot to boot. It would be fine if this game was about Solaris VII, but it's not.
Since the Clans dislike melee combat every Inner Sphere mech should have a melee weapon using the logic of this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/25/22 10:43 AM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that she stole the thrones, punished entire worlds for not praising her as god, for allowing her troops to run rampant on those she deemed disloyal, as well as others isn't enough to suggest her intent was not good? Convictions in court can be iffy, as twisting and distortions happen a lot by those that know how to do so. A long, lengthy court case costs money. The fact that evidence will convince most of what was done. Even judges will be convinced with what was had. To be honest, Victor should have just had her executed and been done with it. He was not going to retain the thrones afterwards, so the accusation of starting the war for power is not there.
Funny how you threw out this discussion point about the IS response to the clan invasion.
What? You mean the story never showed what the evidence was, and yet you say it wasn't enough? They just left it as Victor used Katherine's tactic of implying things, as that can not be distorted? Wow. Guess the argument for Katherine not doing the crimes must be false. The evidence says so. Yeah, right.
So absolutely nothing has changed when one leader dies and the next takes over, on how the government runs. Each ruler puts in their ideas, but for the most part, it continues to operate. That's what I said, and you just proved. As the leader does NOT sit in a recruiting office, signing up people, nor does he say we need 12 million track parts for a specific tank, and that stuff, he just tells his subordinates to get done what needs to be done. They could well run on last years/months quotas. Hell, most of the time the leader doesn't change anything, but the heads of the quartermaster changes what needs to be done.
Essentially, all that listed, is something they can change, but is not required to be in there.
The LC version of it? Without Katherine's greed for power, the issue with Joshua would have been different in the people's view. You say Katherine did what she had to in order to allow the LC nation to survive. This is what Victor did. He was going to use a ruse in order to make sure the troops fighting the clans had the best equipment possible in order to fight an invader, that did not seem stoppable. Had Victor done what he should have, and pulled the FS troops out of the LC at that time, and just let them go it alone, what would Katherine have done? Oh yeah. The LC would have been destroyed, as the clans would have pushed far deeper and faster into the LC.
The probability of social generals returning would have hastened the disintegration of the situation as well.
This is not writing from the FS perspective, but the perspective of Katherine's actions nearly destroyed the LC. This is following the canon story, not fan fiction that only one person knows.
Funny thing. Most of those people Katherine had accused of crimes never seen the courts. They were just killed on sight. Where is the outrage there? This is especially true with Melissa. There was no crime there, other then being in Katherine's way to power.
So now you are trying to make excuses for using WMD? If they are not the rulers of a government, then it is ok and shouldn't be punished? There is no defense situation on how they were used. It wasn't to stop an invasion by superior forces, but by the invaders to kill any and all, as the chemicals killed all, including the invaders forces. And what is to stop the government forces from saying it was a rogue element that used it? Not once, but multiple times on different worlds. Not seeing the whole picture?
There is no comparison in the fact Victor only started hating his sister when he realized Katherine killed their mother. And the reason was worse. Because Melissa stood in her way to seize power. No other reason, like if Melissa was having people tortured in the courts for pleasure. Not starving worlds by destroying farms and such. Not rounding up political enemies on a whim. It was because Katherine could not have Melissa bringing the FC closer together. To suggest Victor would have started the civil war without the catalyst of the death of their mother, and nothing else, is a complete logic hole. As the other events would not have happened, there would be no reason to even try. The abduction would have been better investigated, and it would have been done my Melissa, not Victor. But again, you missed these issues as you're focused on blaming Victor for Katherine's lust for power.
Do you know that when a victor rewrites history, it changes their motives from greed to something noble? Nothing will change the fact that Katherine was power hungry and will do anything to retain and gain more power? Had the Civil war not happened, she would have set off another round of nukes, as the other nations would have denied her the First Lord position, and she would have went to war against them with the mind set of the 1st succession war? Kill all those that oppose you in any way you can. She is one to think that if I have to be the only one left to rule, then so be it.
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Karagin
05/25/22 11:07 AM
70.118.172.64
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IF the Civil War didn't happen she would NOT be in a position to hold on to the LC side of things. Victor would have found a way to remove her. Recall the Civil War along with the Falcon Wolf War was a way to weaken the major players at the time. All so they could then be blind to the WoB and their Wonder Twin Powers (Tm)
Katherine was written as a petty tyrant, she was the foil for Victor to learn some hard lessons. If TPTB had used any real logic and wanted a story that had depth beyond an 8th-grade reading level, we would have seen more of the why's about her issues. Also if she was so amazing at being a ruler, that she wasn't, then why didn't her other siblings' side with her against Victor? She tried hard to slander and destroy Yvonne, her own sister, and yet we are to believe that she was an amazing ruler because some ALT Fan-Fiction says so? Is Twilight next to be added in?
The ONLY way Katherine gets the LC, is for mommy to die, and that death is so insane crazy level that it casts doubt on everything the Fed-Com stood for. Then making it look like Victor was the petty one, and thus the one to gain from it shows that she had a lot of issues. If Melissa doesn't die, then Katherine has NO chance to be in charge of anything. And while she still might try, she will not have the same level of support from the fringe and corrupt elements that she got after the death of Melissa. This ALT is a joke, clearly hasn't read the novels or sourcebooks, and again has NO idea that a point of departure from the main has to have a logical point or else it's Alien Space Bat crap.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/25/22 12:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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It was said a long while ago, that in order for the logic holes to be fixed, the history would have to start from the first SL. Probably before. With those changes, the entire 3025 era would be vastly different, as a lot of the story line would never have happened, to create the situation that existed in the canon time line. As the alt does not want to move away from canon, as indicated by the absolute refusal to stop using canon, there is no way to remove the issues. One of the biggest being the Amaris war to begin with. There is no way that a leader from a nation that is at war with the SL would be allowed to get anywhere near the young heir to the SL throne. Beyond that, there are so many written before the retcons cause even more problems.
The entire concept of the FC would not have happened, as the rulers that were alive at this point, would not have existed, since the circumstances of them even being born wouldn't have happened. At least of the main alt being pushed. A few have shown up, where some things have some odd questions, they do not dramatically change the timeline of events to the point of becoming a major new story. Those that run, or play the other alts, do not demand theirs is the only solution to the issues with canon.
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Karagin
05/25/22 02:32 PM
70.118.172.64
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It all depends on when the point of departure (POD) is set, a lot of what you say is true if the POD is set before the first Star League. Now when most writers/authors do alternate history, they don't make complete changes that wipe out whole events unless the POD is so far back that everything would change.
In this case, if the idea is to have NO Fed-Com then a POD set somewhere after the 2nd or 3rd Succession War would be needed. Then there is a catch, why did this event happen in place of the canon one? Given what I have seen of the ALT, the whole thing is more of a bad fan-fiction than an ALT.
True Alternate Histories keep similar events, mechs would still be made, Omnimechs as well. Something similar to Clans would happen, etc...but the difference is when and who, and what happens. Plenty of examples of excellent Alt-Histories out there on the Net and plenty of bad ones as well.
As I said before, using an Alt-History model can allow you to get a better understanding of why things happened. Along with reason and ideas of why events normally have a logic to them. Now in the case of Battletech, you have to be even more honest with things and any changes you make need to make logical sense or you are doing no better than what you are complaining about.
Seen several BT Alts that are really good, and I can count the number of the good ones on one hand. The number of bad ones, well, I need a slide rule for that. The point is we are having a discussion about canon and speculating on things about the ongoings of the Inner Sphere and the reality of that said place. Offering a quick well this could happen as a future event or you know IF so and so had done Y or Z vs X then we would have seen this happen sooner or later or what not is fine, it offers a counter, but to claim that is all factual because you like it better nope sorry but that's arguing in bad faith. Which is what he is doing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (05/25/22 02:37 PM)
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ghostrider
05/25/22 08:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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The reason why I said about the 1st Star League, is the person pushing an alt says that there are no logic holes in their alt version. Yet Amaris getting to Terra, much less close to Richard is a huge logic hole. Without the assassination attempt, the war that came from it wouldn't have happened. It may have been done with other leaders doing so, but the entire exodus would not have occurred at the time stated. It might also have been less nuke fest, or possibly even worse. The first war may have been pushed back to when all were ready for it, or one or more of the nations might have been part of destroying the SL. Huge possibilities, but Amaris wouldn't be part of it. So the full destruction of the RWR would be unlikely as well. With this, the LC might be larger or smaller, depending on this as well as if the RWR resisted the LC.
And I totally agree. The bad faith discussion is to promote an alt that has several threads dedicated to it, but most still seem to suggest they are canon fact. As it gets called out as canon lies, the statement comes out after several posts that is was alt, not canon. Yet pushed as canon until called out.
So far, only one person has stated their alt is the only solution. This is a problem, as others will not show more of their own, which I do take some responsibility for them avoiding it. I was (am) a moron that got overzealous and jumped on them for it.
I make mistakes. Some of them were changes happening after the original books were published. A few were forgetting some important piece of it. I tend to admit when I do so. I normally don't say it is canon after it is shown as false. But there lies the issue with one author of an alt.
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Karagin
05/26/22 02:02 AM
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I jump on things too, and I know my Alt is not perfect. I am changing to fit something else of my own less BT fan fiction. However, the points in my take, I am making sure similar silliness as I see in the main storyline are addressed, and logic plays out vs. my want something just because. I am going for more story and character-driven vs. just character-driven. I firmly believe that some of the issues in BT are that the game went from story-driven to character-driven, and they could not shift back and forth as needed. Too many chefs in the kitchen and no one with a clear over plan.
The thing is, I have never been pushed by alt or ideas as canon; I have used them to question canon and point out possibilities, but never as replacements because I know they are not.
Now your point about the RWR fighting harder against the LC, that I could see happening if the LC tried to attack them while the bulk of the Amaris military was in the Hegemony. Why didn't the LC make a play for the RWR while they were tied up against the SLDF before Kerensky sacked the whole Republic?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/26/22 07:03 AM
101.185.5.51
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Quote:
The fact that she stole the thrones, punished entire worlds for not praising her as god.
I see, in other words you don’t really have any evidence it is all just conjecture based upon personal belief or how your character was affected, as being a part of the FS, whilst being affected by her actions.
If you’re a Lyran (circa Joshua incident) what she did is considered appropriate – they welcomed her action as correct and they believe wholeheartedly that she is the progeny of her mother’s and her grandmother, two incredible Archons in their own right. It is, therefore, just a natural progression …
As for the second throne, the FS throne, Victor (rather than actually doing his job as a ruler of a realm departed the IS for planets unknown, he abandoned the throne to a weak regent – it was speculation if he was even still alive). Then Yvonne (wallflower and incompetent individual) finds ruling a realm impossible as she just cannot do the job. She, therefore, INVITES Katherine to take the throne as she has proven herself to be competing when ruling the realm.
The idea, therefore, that she stole the throne is just an individual’s conjecture – there is no proof to the effect! How can you steal a throne when it is given to you?
Punished entire worlds – sorry but again these were shipping logistical issues brought on by transport companies due to the effect of either breakdown or there were just not enough jump-ships / drop-ships to even complete the task – Considering how many within the forum harp on about how I cannot move troops around due to there being no ships the idea that suddenly there is an adequate supply within Lyran space and it is all Katherine’s fault becomes too far fetched to believe. Everyone has come to accept that with a small number of ships the probability of delays is just normal operating procedure.
Not praising her as God – since when did she start a religion? Public perception is normal for a politician – even today many live and die by their soundbites and how they are perceived – and how many individuals now want to be like socialite, media personality Kim K and follow her every move etc.? The same can be said for Katherine, that she is viewed in the same principle ….
It therefore comes down once more to personal conjecture and the media that you trust -to “imply things” as a means of swaying public opinion and discourse – as again there was never any proof as her complicity in any murder or illegal act. There is only belief in Victor or Katherine …
And remember the Civil War commenced by Victor declaring war – and yet when he did he not once cited any proof (other than his own belief) that Katherine was guilty – and at the end of the war – he again never supplied any proof to the people of the IS.
What we do see however is that he acted as a man on mission based on vengeance for loosing his throne when he returned the conquering hero and when he just handed his sister over to the Clans … this is the reality of what was seen by all …
He had just waged a war as apart of the SLDF to bring freedom to the IS and yet rather than allow his sister that freedom he through her to the wolves with no remorse whatsoever!
At this stage both the Lyran and the Suns economy was on the rebound and for the first time in many years there was security and peace in the IS.
The real Victor would be seen by many as a petty individual who when he did not receive his accolades upon returning the conquering hero decided to remain with his Kurita friends (and lover) in order to formulate a plan to vent his frustration out on the person who belittled him …. Katherine!
And he found it in ComStar … and in his ability to hinder her advancement in becoming First Lord … Victor really is petty!
So, Sorry to burst you bubble but it appears at the end that Victor is the Tyrant who colluded with Kuritans and not Katherine for his actions in removing his sister and starting the civil war …
This is the point – in a society where there has never been any proof Victors actions such as who he colludes with - (and not Katherines) appear to be the greater tyranny as his actions are based upon vengeance … there was no evidence in proving the righteousness of his cause … Katherine was only defending herself.
Also have notices that Victors’ fingerprints are on almost all the missteps within the FC?
Thus in the court of public opinion Victor should be the bad guy, despite all his good intentions … he just does not have it to be a ruler!
Quote:
So absolutely nothing has changed when one leader dies and the next takes over, on how the government runs.
Do you realize that you have just missed the entire point of what was outlined above?
The government may continue to operate – however the hand on the tiller changes and as a result the destination changes – the way the Nation sees itself changes … everything can change … just look at the past 3 US Presidents …
You do realize that for any government to operate it requires the authorisation of the leader at every step – thus with Victor’s absence this step cannot be achieved … thus paralysing the entire nation …
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nor does he say we need 12 million track parts for a specific tank
Yes this is true, however as leader she/he can decide to de-fund / keep the funding the same / increase the funding to your tank and as such can ensure – it never gets built / stays the same / is increased in size and scope.
So she/he just tells a department head what he wants and it gets done.
Thus the heads of the quartermasters must live within the budget set by their leader – and depending on their view this can change everything!
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The LC version of it? Without Katherine's greed for power, the issue with Joshua would have been different in the people's view.
For someone who demands absolute canon – how hard is it to research this point?
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Funny thing. Most of those people Katherine had accused of crimes never seen the courts. They were just killed on sight. Where is the outrage there?
Please provide a list ….
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So now you are trying to make excuses for using WMD?
And once again comprehension causes issues.
Political power affords certain amount of accommodation ..
And as for a rogue element – how long will that old ploy stand up to intense scrutiny?
Using it multiple times will only just reinforce the intelligence spy’s belief that their enemy government is using it and not a rogue element.
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Victor only started hating his sister when he realized Katherine killed their mother
You do realize that he never obtained conclusive proof – thus you really have to ask where the hate is really coming from.
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when a victor re-writes history
The problem is that there are historians who actually do their research and leg work and who can actually come a definitive conclusion based on that pesky notion called “truth”!
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Had the Civil war not happened, she would have set off another round of nukes, as the other nations would have denied her the First Lord position, and she would have went to war against them with the mind set of the 1st succession war?
Wasn’t this supposed to be a non alt. Universe zone?
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There is no way that a leader from a nation that is at war with the SL would be allowed to get anywhere near the young heir to the SL throne.
You do realize that Amaris is a very strong proponent of the Star League and the First Lord – and he also has dual citizenship?
You also realize how many social gatherings there are when the House Lords visit to discuss issues with the First Lord.
Quote:
As I said before, using an Alt-History model can allow you to get a better understanding of why things happened.
Really? …. This is a first for me, especially as to how my alt was treated in spots.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/26/22 07:05 AM)
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Karagin
05/26/22 09:24 AM
70.118.172.64
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Using my phone to interact with this page sucks. Whoever told me that smartphones are better than a computer needs to go get some mental health care. Smartphones suck. Sorry for the rant, but the damn thing cut out words and dropped an entire sentence.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 12:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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The print says Katherine stole the thrones. Her pulling the LC portion out of the FC was a direct play to steal the LC throne. Once the war with the FWL was over, she did NOT even try to join back up. She killed the FC, not because of the incident, but for the power it would give her. The incident was just a good excuse.
Yvonne was manipulated by Katherine's use of the media to suggest she was ineffective. She was not confident in her abilities, but I did not see where she was unable to do the job properly.
Funny. Killing of noble houses and hundred of thousands to millions to sate her ego isn't enough? She had people killed for not just resisting her, but for not being falling on their knees to worship her.
Since I just finished watching Halo the tv series, Katherine Halsey seems to be a perfect example of Katherine Steiner. She would sacrifice the entire IS to gain and retain power over everything. There is no emotion, she fakes feelings towards others, only to use them.
Another funny irony. You said the reagent can give away the throne, yet you suggest they can not make decisions that you suggest only the leader can because they don't have the power to. I know this will go over your head, like almost everything else pointed out, but how is this possible?
Return the law degree. It isn't working. Upon her orders, shipments were delayed to worlds that required things. Whether medicine, extra food, or what ever. The orders went out under her signature.
Back to lying again? There is proof of her killing her mother. There was always proof of it. At no time was there never proof.
Executing millions in a realm that was stolen is not illegal? Accusations that were never proven in court, was used to justify killing them all. The act of killing your own mother without just cause is not illegal? Stealing another nations property isn't illegal? All those ships Katherine stole when she took the LC by deception is illegal. They were FS owned, and when she pulled the LC out of it, she stole all of them.
Victor did not start the war. It was not about regaining the throne either. It was to remove the blood thirsty, power mad sister from destroying even more lives in her bid to become lord over all. Her continued slaughter of innocent lives caused Victor to have to respond. The civil war was coming, and the only way it stood any sort of chance, was for him to lead it. Otherwise the military would have continued listening to the women that would kill them all out of spite.
Melissa had been bringing the two halves together with the clans still breathing down their necks. This upset Katherine, so had to be removed. And peace and security when Katherine ruled? Only suppression of the truth made it seem like that was even remotely true. She was destroying worlds. Not those actively helping the enemy, but just trying to stay out of the feud she had with her brother.
Again, glossing over facts. Katherines freedom was destroying millions of lives. Funny how she was purposefully destroying lives doing things, while you blame Victor for doing the same as he was learning. Once learned, those mistakes would not be made again. Katherine would still be killing millions to try and satisfy her lust for power. And Melissa was teaching Victor to avoid those mistakes. Another reason to have her removed.
Missing the point? The point was the government can run fine without a leader. The various department heads, or ministers, deal with keeping it running. For the IS, the government can be run from the cockpit of a mech. Orders to change things can be done. And you gloss over the fact that being in the field does not mean being in your mech 100 percent of the time. They do have CICs in the field where the commander stay at, as they are not in combat the entire time while in the field. They do have communications that continue to and from HQ on the home world. That is why they have their officers surrounding them to advise and update what is going on in their realm while in the field. Very little needs the leaders direct intervention to do. Ministers, Reagents and department head can handle most, if not all, of the running of the government. And the cop out of someone stealing the realm, well that is why department heads don't control more then their specific areas. SO the agriculture minister will not be able to access the navy, in order to attack another planet in the realm.
See? You said what I have been saying. The heads of departments decide what to do. The budget is set for them, and they try to do everything they can within the budget as well as trying to avoid spending it all. Reserves of money are needed, and what do you know. The leader is not needed to run the department. This is true for all the departments. The budget can be set by something like the general estate or equivalent in each realm. Much like Congress does today in the U.S.
It was pettiness that caused Victor to opposed his sisters grab for power? What canon book are you reading? Damn. You can't separate fact (canon) from the alt (fan fiction). So stop discussing canon things as you don't know what is fact anymore.
Not having ability and actively oppressing the subjects is not one and the same. Melissa's death prevented Victor from learning how to avoid those mistakes.
How much of the canon story was comprehended? You need a list of all those that she had imprisoned and executed without a trial? There isn't enough room in a post to deal with that. It is printed in the books.
Complain about the use of WMDs, and now defending their use, as it opposed your vision. And yet you will never see the irony here.
The hatred started with Katherine killing their mother. The entire time, she was sending out false implications like the supposed telling her to bury their mother without him being there. So many other things happening, with him returning home to find out she stole the entire FC, and was destroying lives. Yeah. he must have been born with it.
What alt are you talking about? I am not promoting any sort of alt, but saying what would have happened, had Katheren remained in power. She would have started wars with the others, even if it was just one nation at a time. I am not giving any sort of how, but the why is part of the discussion.
You do realize the phrase 'at war with' changes the entire concept of social diners and such? OH yeah. You don't read entire sentences, but just pick up a few words to respond to.
Let's see. Your alt is the only solution and is constantly shoved down throats, while others don't demand a full rewrite using their alt. You never got the concept before, so I doubt you will now.
None of the others are suggesting their take is canon, when it is clearly shown as an alt.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 12:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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I have had more issues with a long response that has me checking back to see what was said an in the context it was stated in.
So timeouts or no longer valid responses comes up a lot.
I also have a new phone that was an 'upgrade' to my last one, and it is a piece of donkey dung.
And from the looks of it, they are doing the same thing with the OS on the phones as windows has been doing. Send out the set up and fix issues later, not before it goes out.
It would explain why more phones are being hacked then ever.
And being on a PC doesn't mean you don't have issues with things being screwed up. It just cuts down on some of the issues.
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Karagin
05/26/22 04:38 PM
70.118.172.64
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One thing Stackpole did was not hide who was behind things, he made it clear, could he have done a better job and given us more, sure, but hey when he's busy trying to play God himself, it's kind of hard to care about the folks reading what you are selling. He is the only author that I heard of openly insulting a room of fans and not being pushed out of business as a writer.
The killing of Melissa was both turning points for Victor and Katherine, as I said for Victor it forced him to grow up, and for Katherine, it was just another stone on the path to the throne. She had nothing to lose and was working with the groups that wanted the LC out of the Fed-Com or fractured into smaller states...she also had relatives on both sides of the marriage that would aid her schemes because things were not all that great in the Fed-Suns. Many there hated the idea of the Fed-Com. As for Yvonne, she wasn't ready, but she did step up and try. Unlike the others, Katherine and Victor both played to their needs.
I am wondering if the novels even got read? Or skimmed and counted on the sourcebooks to fill in the missing blanks. Like using cliff notes to give a presentation that requries you to make items work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 04:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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You mean like reading the summery in the back of a book then writing a book report on the book?
The novels provide some help, but they still don't give the full information on what is going on. As the house books skip chunks, they still give you a majority of the end results.
The retcons thru crap in there that muddy the water. A few do change the entire outcome of some scenarios, such as infantry damage being changed. It was needed, but went too far. Now some battles that infantry lose easily, would have shifted to more damage to the enemy, possibly even changing the outcome of the battle. This is especially true in a campaign strung together. Light to no damage, now becomes units being down for repairs instead of being there for the next battle concept.
This is also true with vehicle crits chances and the actual crits. Having 1 in 2 chance of completely taking out a vehicle was harsh. With the changes, it is possible for vehicles to have survived shots to continue working.
I don't expect the canon story to rewrite this, but the fact remains, the changes do have a great effect on the story line.
Playing, I had more then a few tanks take less then 10 points of damage to the armor and was taken out of the game. So had more armor on them then a heavy mech can carry. Single point shows being the main thing that upset me.
Changing Aerofighters is another change that would influence battles. They were overpowered with the strafe, which I will support, to being a liability now. Just too likely to lose one in an atmosphere, where deploying them would be like sending a machinegun, slow APC against an Atlas.
I can agree that Victor was delayed in having to learn what he should have with Melissa alive, but given the clans, it is understandable. His first priority was dealing with them. As stated with governments running on their own, good people in the right position allows you to focus on things other then the government.
Melissa probably would have pulled some funding from the military or other big expenses, and put it into helping the masses. Civilian medicines being one such program to gain. But then those running the departments are not likely to have been changed. So funding being a main change.
The idea of reading between the lines and comprehensive reading says it all. The actual wording seems to have been ignored, so a vision was what never happened that should have, became the actual story. I have seen a few things that should have been changed, but not presented as canon or being forced to be canon. Some things can not be changed and still present something close to canon. Which is why I do see it won't be changed.
In the end, the story was written by TPTB, to move the storyline along the routes they wanted. For a general outcome, I can see and accept it. Doesn't mean I like it, but I didn't make the game or history.
More then a few things seemed to be throw it against the wall and see what sticks.
The point of entities helping destroy the FC is a good point, which doesn't seem to have been addressed. For their own reasons, a lot of them would want the break up sooner then later. Mainly those that lost power due to the merger. This is true in real life, as someone has to lose for others to gain.
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Karagin
05/26/22 05:05 PM
70.118.172.64
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On the groups working to take down the FedCom, they seemed to only focus on the LC side and then Liao and WoB, after things thawed some with the Combine, they tossed in the Sandvols' as being bigger hotheads than they normally would have been.
I agree we the fans can't change anything short of voting with our money as to what sells and all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 10:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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It is odd, that the LC has almost as many people wanting to break up the LC as the FWL does. Is that how the developers were keeping the LC off balance?
As much as the DC was a threat, it seemed like the entire Steiner family was out to destroy the LC if they weren't in charge.
But I guess that could be said about game balance all around. They couldn't have the big fights between the DC and FS if the LC wasn't left out of it. Even before the merger, they should have done a lot more to shrink the DC borders. I would guess the social generals was a big part of this ploy.
I wonder what would have happened if Ryan was able to take control. Would Brewer side with him, or fight with all of Defiance's resources? I would think fight.
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Requiem
05/26/22 10:44 PM
101.185.5.51
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The print says Katherine stole the thrones
Stealing is taking another’s property without permission or legal right and without the intention of its return.
In both cases in the application of the definition they are not applicable as she was provided permission in both cases.
Katherine was provided permission through the Estates General, and by the will of the people to assume the role as their Archon. Secondly, Yvonne yielded the throne of First Princess.
QED – Katherine did not steal anything!
People can say this over-and-over again, however, Truth Wins – it is just semantics and positioning by those who just want to discredit her due to their own petty and vindictiveness when Victor’s poor ploy initiated a War. How many times have we seen these same tactics of applying labels to political rivals in an attempt to bring them low – didn’t work now and won’t work in the far future as it is a ploy of those with no real intellect, drive, and a will to find a better solution to problems at hand.
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Funny. Killing of noble houses and hundreds of thousands to millions to sate her ego isn’t enough?
Throwing around statements with no proof equates to just a false premise – can I please suggest in the future when you feel like adding a statement like this you also attack a link to the wiki page so that we understand the veracity of the statement.
Thus can you please now provide a link to page which supports this statement.
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There is no emotion, she fakes feelings towards others, only to use them.
Sorry but rather than discrediting Katherine, you have just complemented her.
A ruler must be able to partition their emotions when necessary – how else are they to remain sane when they send how many millions off to war?
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Regent
As stated above in the absence of the monarch (for what ever reason) the Regent has full executive power over everything as they are the proxy ruler!
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Upon her orders
And as stated many times you require evidence when it comes to slandering / enforcing charges. Thus can your PC or even anyone within the media locate said evidence to which she has placed her signature?
She is far too careful!
So, the answer is no, there is no evidence and as such there can be no charges levied against the Archon.
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Back to lying again? There is proof of her killing her mother. There was always proof of it. At no time was there never proof.
And as stated above if you are going to make baseless acquisitions, please supply a link or provide concrete proof, such as a notation (Book name and page no.) as well as a copy of what was written in quotation.
There has never been and will never be any proof – if there was then Victor would have used it n a court of law against his sister, as he never did the idea that there was proof now becomes a point of extreme derision.
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Executing millions in a realm that was stolen is not illegal?
Once again please provide a link otherwise this is just a baseless acquisition.
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All those ships Katherine stole when she took the LC by deception is illegal
You do realise that these ships were engaged in normal commerce practices when the succession occurred?
And you do realise that the head of state has the right to enact taxation policy within their own realm?
Also how can be accused of stealing – when as the definition above states it is for the intention of never returning them – when she did return them!
Thus, she is within her remit to apply an exit fee to Federated Suns Ships when they cross the border as it is LEGAL. There is no Star League version of Law stating that, “No charge may be levied upon foreign ships by reason of their passage through the territorial sea.” (Article 26 – Part II Territorial Sea and Continuous Zone – United Nations) that continues to exist. The Star League is dead and gone at this stage.
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
What this shows is just sour grapes based upon individual personal opinion to the fact that she applied an exit fee upon these ships – it has no basis in the reality.
Some may call it ransom due to sour grapes at having to pay the fee whereas others recognise statecraft would say it is just a taxation Levey – just the same way one country places a levy on another’s goods for reason of protecting their internal corporations etc. (agriculture).
This statement, therefore, is completely in error.
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Victor did not start the war.
Then what was he doing in front of the camera when he most definitely did declare war?
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Chapter 19 Patriots and Tyrants by Loren L. Coleman – Page 145 Onwards …
Deschuttes, Mogyorod
Melissia Theatre
Lyran Alliance
8 December 3062
“Good citizens of the Federated Commonwealth, I could wish many things for us. That the great union of two nations which my parents forged would not have founded. That I would never have found it necessary to leave you while fighting to end the Clan invasion. That my sister, Katherine, could have quelled her hunger for power, no matter the price. But wishing will not make it so. Such dreams have already died and any hope I might have had for peace between the to realms I once led died with my brother Arthur, who was killed two days ago in a vicious terrorist attack.
Arthur was a soldier, a good man, and he was learning to become a leader of men, women, and worlds. For that, someone decided that he had to die. Arthur’s death convinces me that my duty to protect the Commonwealth can no longer be denied. The troubles on Solaris were a harbinger of what has come, and Arthur’s violent death underscores the fighting already taking place on worlds such as Kathil, Robinson, and Kentares.
His death will not be in vain. No longer will an unfit and unjust ruler sit on the throne of the Federated Suns and Lyran Alliance, one who has seen fit to bring violence against her own family, betraying the memory of our father, our mother, and the trust of the people of both realms. There is blood on Katherine’s hands, and no amount of propaganda will wash them clean.
None of us wishes to see more conflict, but we can no longer ignore the problems plaguing us. Now we must live with the results, however painful, as we acknowledge the irreconcilable differences that continue to divide my sister from me. It is no longer possible for me to stand back in the interests of peace. The time has come, my people, where no other choice remains.
None, but war!
This mandate has been pressed upon me by Katherine’s tyrannical actions, and by the sacrifices of patriots already fighting on the worlds of Kathil, Benet, Kentares, Demeter, Bromhead, and others yet unreported. We will resist with any and all means at our disposal the efforts to subjugate and enslave our freedoms. We fight with the truth on our side, and we simply ask that everyone listen and judge accordingly.
In the end, I know we shall be victorious, re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable, government among our people, worlds, and nations.”
Can I ask one question here is two days a lengthy enough time to conduct an effective investigation into Arthus’s supposed assassination to determine Katherine’s guilt and thus declare war on her? As it appears that Victor was looking for any excuse no matter how trivial to declare war on her.
What can be comprehended from this diatribe is that Victor wanted to return to war, being the warmonger he is, and this was the perfect excuse!
I would also like to ask in the near future when Victor does learn that Arthur was not assassinated by Katherine, but was kidnapped by WOB, does he say “Oops my bad”, does he even have a second of regret that he deposed her for the wrong reasons and he also sentenced her to life in the Clans for totally the wrong reason. As his whole reason, the catalyst, for going to war has now been verified as a Lie!
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Melissa had been bringing the two halves together with the clans still breathing down their necks. This upset Katherine, so had to be removed. And peace and security when Katherine ruled? Only suppression of the truth made it seem like that was even remotely true. She was destroying worlds. Not those actively helping the enemy, but just trying to stay out of the feud she had with her brother.
I am sorry but what? …. How does this make any sense? Can you perhaps re-write so as to make it bit more legible.
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Katherine’s freedom was destroying millions of lives.
Sorry but at the start of Civil War she is the rightful ruler of the re-formed Federated Commonwealth, as such those local lords who initiated rebellion are traitors and should be put down.
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The point was the government can run fine without the leader.
You do realise one massive error with this – how are you going to pay anyone when the only person who can authorize the transfer of funds from the Reserve Bank, to the Government Departments (Including the military), Corporations and Individuals is not there to authorise it?
So, unless the Regent is there or the Liege Lord no one is going to get paid any time soon.
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Much like Congress does today in the US
The president submits a budget to Congress by the first Monday in February every year. The budget contains estimates of federal government income and spending for the upcoming fiscal year and also recommends funding levels for the federal government. Congress then must pass appropriations bills based on the president's recommendations and Congressional priorities. If Congress does not pass all appropriations measures by the start of the fiscal year (October 1), it has to enact a continuing resolution to keep the government running.
If Congress can't agree on 12 separate bills, it can pass an Omnibus bill with funding for multiple areas. If the budget is not completed by the new fiscal year, Congress must pass a continuing resolution authorizing temporary funding at the previous year's levels or face a government shutdown.
Can I please suggest you binge watch the West Wing – as most of this was covered within – and I am not even a US citizen and even I know how the US government works. Thanks.
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It was pettiness that caused Victor to oppose his sister’s grab for power?
Spending two days to come to the conclusion the Katherine killed Arthur looks like being petty to me.
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Melissa’s death prevented Victor from learning how to avoid those mistakes.
Really? How about not learning it from his parents when he was growing up – did no one talk to him about statecraft at the breakfast table in an effort to make all the children understand their duty?
Sorry but once again the plot has left the reservation called logic.
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You need a list of all those that she had imprisoned and executed without trial
How about the main individuals or even better how about the wiki page that confirms this or even the book and page number.
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I am not promoting any sort of alt, but saying what would have happened, had Katheren remained in power.
That which is not canon is an Alt.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/26/22 11:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think we would a splintering of things. Each group wanted its version. Now each House had its own internal issue, be it rebellious nobles or corperations or family issues. Something was always there to keep them from getting that one small advantage over the others.
Some of the Steiner's did seem set to burn it down or cripple things if they weren't in charge. That was shown with how Melessia's own mother was attacked after her coup to remove her uncle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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l0rDn0o8sKiLlZ
05/27/22 12:47 AM
73.251.251.186
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--- This thread is over half a year old and 233 replies long and I still have no idea where it's supposed to be going. What is the intended resolution here? What is trying to be achieved and dare I even ask... why? Isn't this all made up fantasy? How is there so much bickering to be had, and indeed so passionately at that? This thread is really quite the trip and I for one am very excited to see what happens next.
"Woad Raider, kill things today."
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ghostrider
05/27/22 11:34 AM
45.51.181.83
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The truth is, Katherine killed her mother to steal the LC throne. That is the truth. This wins over all. You suggest that a reagent can give away another persons throne. Since when has this been legal?
So a reagent can run a government when the actual leader is away? Wow. Guess that confirms a nation does not need to have it's leader around to run.
The print said there was evidence of the crimes she committed. This is written in a few places. Actually read the books, instead of searching thru the wiki and trying to point out flaws in their entries. There was no trial for removing Victor or even confirming all the rumors Katherine thru at him. So by your logic, none of that is true.
Yet another false statement. Most of those ships were there from transporting FS troops to the front lines with the clans. The very thing you said needed to be much larger then it was. Remember, commerce is not that big, so why would thousands of ships be there? To transport dozens of Regiments as well as RCTs.
When she split up the FC, she took those ships illegally. Not all were returned, and those that were, were sold back to the FS. This is extortion, as those ships were there with troops to fight the enemy the LC could not defeat. It was the break up, done without any prior warning, that had those ships doing their lawful jobs. Her seizure of them made sure the troops stationed in the LC could not return peacefully to the FS with their ships. This is theft. This would not have happened if Melissa wasn't killed.
What authority did Victor have to do the investigation? It was an internal affair in the FS. He was no longer part of the FS, so could not properly investigate it. Given the long line of Katherine's assaults and executions of other powerful members in the FS/LC, he knew civil war was already being waged, but only by Katherine's forces. He knew that those being killed for no reason other then Katherine wanted no one to have a voice of their own, he had no choice but to oppose the tyrannical monster his sister had become.
Killing her mother wasn't because of petty jealousy? Without this one event, Victor would not have been so angry at Katherine. The kidnapping was not the reason why Victor removed Katherine, it was the last straw of events. He was going to do so, but the kidnapping caused him to do so sooner.
Doesn't change the fact Melissa was teaching Victor how to run the nation, and Katherine killed her to stop that.
The issue is someone is yet again trying to push their alt into being the only canon solution. They have not done much but shown they are here to troll, and I am an idiot for continuing to try and get them to use canon facts when discussing canon issues. A few what ifs are thrown in, and immediately said to be some alt.
As canon things were discussed, things that never happened were thrown in, with the concept of them being canon. Yet when we show they are not, more non canon facts are thrown in to continue the first lie. If people wanted to deal with the alt, then they would go to the threads that has the alt information being posted. My guess is that no one goes, so the person is disrupting this and other threads were conversations of what did happen, should have, or could have, without demanding their vision be the only one. And I do understand the irony, as I seem to be one that does demand a few things.
The thread will probably be locked, like the others for the same reason. Anyone just getting into Battletech, and visiting here will have the wrong information, as the alt items are presented as canon. This is the reason I continue to counter the false statements as much as possible.
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Requiem
05/27/22 05:06 PM
101.185.5.51
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The truth is, Katherine killed her mother to steal the LC throne.
I knew we would be back to this old chestnut.
First, if the books (and unfortunately some of wiki) were not so poorly written, when it comes to certain absolutism words i.e. implicated – shown that an individual to be involved in a crime or cover up any other loose ends from her murder of her mother … it is clear to anyone that Victor, Francesca Jenkins and Agent Curaitis only have suppositions when it comes this crime, there is no proof, this is why Jenkins and Curaitis are out there – to find the proof.
So here we are as readers, reading a very poorly written novel that harps back to a boy’s own adventure book of the late 1800’s / early 1900’s / Dime Novel writing in which the authors, being poor examples of their group, force the reader into no doubt as to whom the goodies are and at the same time who the evil protagonists are …
Thus the reader ‘must’ accept this as being true and genuine without being questioned or doubted i.e. they force you the reader to accept their version of events at face value!
That said, however, if you actually show a modicum of intelligence and ask yourself questions as to the veracity of the author’s statements it quickly becomes clear that that a more seasoned author could have left the reader with doubts as to Katherine’s involvement to the very end – you could be asking yourself all the way through all these novels did she really commit this heinous crime and only at the end could there have been an answer or even then leave it open to interpretation – an eternal unknown to be dated by fans in perpetuity, and in so doing obtain a far more satisfactory story …
I have, however, attempted to demonstrate one clear point, how does your PC know she committed this crime? – the simple answer is your PC character doesn’t know, and will never know – as far as anyone is concerned her murderer goes unknown as one of the great mysteries of the Battletech universe, the same as the Minnesota Tribe or the Wolverines …
The problem is that individuals want to accept everything at face value and refuse to question, but still the question remains – as a DM you can accept everything at face value as that is your prerogative.
However as a PC character you cannot accept what the writers stated at face value – for the first time your character can only act upon the information supplied to them.
Thus as a PC I asked how do you know – and the answer that came back is through your characters beliefs in individuals – in being a Lyran / pro Katherine or Suns pro Victor to the many other factions …
And as Devil’s Advocate I have clearly shown that in any modern society you will require that pesky attribute called absolute proof to convict and prove her guilt. That said – no proof was ever discovered and by this cornerstone of modern society we the people must accept that with a verdict she is innocent.
That is unless you want to join the fringe group rioters on the corner screaming she is guilty in the absence of all proof.
As shown above the idea that she stole either of the Thrones is ludicrous as in both cases she was provided with the crown and the right to rule.
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You suggest that a reagent can give away another person’s throne. Since when has this been legal?
Since forever – classic example Richard I of England on his quest to the Holy Land leaves William Longchamp as Regent. However this does not sit well with our villain of the story Prince John who kicks Longchamp out and decides to rule in Richard’s absence – which will require a hefty ransom when he is kidnapped on the way home.
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Wow. Guess that confirms a nation does not need to have it's leader around to run.
Wow. Guess that confirms that in the absence of a ruler a Regent is required just as there is a President there to is a Vice-President.
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So by your logic, none of that is true.
Victor is a big boy and in the Com-guard, I really do not think he cares what people call him – however, his direct actions led to some very undeniable events and based upon these events people can make accusations …
Just as Katherine’s actions have led to people making accusations about her …
The difference lies in the proof – yes there is proof that Victor’s actions towards Joshua Marik led to a war – no there is no proof Katherine killed her mother ….
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Yet another false statement. Most of those ships were there from transporting FS troops to the front lines with the clans.
You do realize that this is normal commercial behaviour – being the transport of cargo or military units it is all just normal commercial behaviour for a ships captain. As either way your going to get paid.
So the ships being there is irrelevant – the only thing that matters is that Katherine tacked on an exit fee and no this is not extortion! Otherwise can we start re-writing the history of some industrialized countries who wished rather than to protect their own farmers they extorted foreign countries just because …
This will go down well in the History books!
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he had no choice but to oppose the tyrannical monster his sister had become.
First Victor at this point was Com-Guard to which there is supposed to be non-interference clause – which he promptly boke to sake his lust for war!
Thus he had absolutely no right whatsoever to interfere.
Secondly two days to conduct an investigation is a pitifully short time frame to come to a decision.
Thus yes this was all on gut feeling that Katherine was guilty – there was never any proof!
Thus the person acting as the tyrant is not Katherine but Victor through forcing his suppositions onto the FC in order to start a war.
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The kidnapping was not the reason why Victor removed Katherine
And yet the speech he gave, as noted above, confirms this as the reason why the civil war commenced.
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Doesn't change the fact Melissa was teaching Victor how to run the nation, and Katherine killed her to stop that.
Question – was these education packages through remote learning courses or through individual HPG messages? As Victor was in the military light years distant at the time and Katherine was with her mother!
So if it was to stop one individual learning by the other then it was Victor who killed his mother to stop Melissa teaching Katherine how to run the FC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/22 07:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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The books are wrong when they say Katherine killed Melissa? It was printed when she gave the order, as well as planned out for her to be called out of the gathering before she was killed, as well as hiring the assassin and helping him escape is not telling straight up saying Katherine ordered the assassination, then out of here. This is the last out right lie.
You suggest that a reagent can give away another person’s throne. Since when has this been legal?
Since forever – classic example Richard I of England on his quest to the Holy Land leaves William Longchamp as Regent. However this does not sit well with our villain of the story Prince John who kicks Longchamp out and decides to rule in Richard’s absence – which will require a hefty ransom when he is kidnapped on the way home.
How does this answer the question? John steals the throne. it is not given away by a reagent. It is not legal. Again most bs thrown up that has nothing to do with statements.
Guess that confirms you not reading or comprehending the statement about the ruler is not needed as there are others that run the government without their input. Hmmm. A reagent. Does this include ministers and department heads ordered to deal with issues while a leader is out of touch? Isn't this what happens when the heir is not old enough to take the throne? Communications still happen in the field. So yet again, it shows a lack of reading what is there.
Just because the writers say Katherine killed he mother, and the proof still left was enough to convince, but not convict Katherine, does not mean she is innocent. Both in story and especially out of story.
The assassination was carried out by the individual who went under the alias Dancing Joker. He had been hired by Ryan Steiner and Katherine Steiner-Davion.
She then contracted an assassin to kill her mother, which he did by means of a bomb in 3055. Katherine subtly implicated Victor and ascribed to him the motivation that he wished to become Archon-Prince.
Yeah. The wiki is not directly saying she was the one who ordered the strike on her mother. Again, full lies to try and sell your alt views.
Where does it say the ships used to transport the military units were commercial ships? More then a few units have their own assigned directly to the unit.
There was no exit fee. She seized them all. And I seriously doubt they retconned this in.
Still glossing over events that happened before the kidnapping? She was destroying anyone that didn't worship the ground she walked on. Even a single remark that she was not the greatest was enough to get the secret police to remove them. If they were powerful, they would have military units drop and start shooting. The kidnapping was the last straw, not anywhere close to the only one.
The speech was given to tell all that opposed Katherine, that he was going to face her militarily, to end her terror reign. It gave those people a rallying call. But this requires comprehending the issues over time.
So if it was to stop one individual learning by the other then it was Victor who killed his mother to stop Melissa teaching Katherine how to run the FC.
This shows why most people opposed your views of things. Katherine was only in a position to rule if Victor was dead. As outright assassinating him would indeed show Katherine's hand, she went on to use the media to undermine things, but implication and out right lies to make Victor look worse then what he was. Victor finally figured out he had to learn more then just battles when his father died. Katherine seen this and removed that factor as well as implying Victor was the one that did it. The only reason why people backed Katherine is they did not know Melissa tried to step down when Hanse died, so the reason for assassinating her was not remotely correct.
And with this, you are trying to suggest Katherine is innocent by reason of insanity, yet she has shown no signs of it with planning the entire situation.
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ghostrider
05/27/22 11:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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What book and page number has the information that Katherine did not have her mother assassinated?
What book and page number does it say that Katherine was not power mad, and would not use or have killed anyone that would stand in her way to grab even more power?
Where do we get this new book that has the only viable solution to the game? The one that has all logic flaws removed, yet continues to follow canon.
This new book doesn't exist? What a shock. So everything being argued has no actual proof of existence in any sort of print.
I guess that sums up what we have been trying to say for a while.
That the made up, fan fiction is NOT proof of a better solution, as no one other then the person claiming it is, can even begin to read it to verify the statements.
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Requiem
05/28/22 07:00 AM
101.185.5.51
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The books are wrong when they say Katherine killed Melissa?
The books do say that Katherine had Melissa assassinated, however, this is from the point of view of those who read the novels – the DMs.
However, and this is a very big however, from the point of view of all PCs, and this also includes Victor, there is a complete and utter absence of any evidence to prove a causal link between that of Katherine and the assassination.
If you had actually comprehended what was written you would realize that Victor is only utilizing an assumption (his gut feelings) that he and his team cooked up as to Katherine’s Guilt.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM – EVERYONE WANTS TO TRANSCRIBE THEIR KNOWLEDGE FROM THE NOVELS TO THAT OF THEIR PCS WITHIN THE GAME – GUESS WHAT YOU CANNOT DO THIS!
So you can yell and scream as much as you want that Katherine assassinated her mother because all the novels says she did this – However, in the BattleTech Game World YOU DO NOT HAVE ACESS TO THIS INFORMATION! NOT EVEN VICTOR HAS ANY PROOF!
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It was printed when she gave the order, …..
You do realise that this was never printed, and as stated many time when you are going to make an outlandish statement please provide a quote indicating the book and page number to back it up …
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John steals the throne. it is not given away by a reagent. It is not legal.
You do realize that John is a price of the Realm? Guess who decides what is legal and not until Richard is ransomed and again after Richard dies … up until Runnymede …
Or did you forget this is Feudalism!
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Guess that confirms you not reading or comprehending the statement about the ruler is not needed as there are others that run the government without their input.
Guess this confirms that you have yet to understand the inner workings of a modern government, and never bothered to even research the topic regarding the necessity of maintaining either a Regent or a Head of State. If you did you would realise that without this individual the entire government would cease to function.
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Where does it say the ships used to transport the military units were commercial ships?
Where does it transcribe them to the merchant navy?
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She was destroying anyone that didn't worship the ground she walked on. Even a single remark that she was not the greatest was enough to get the secret police to remove them.
Again wit the false remarks – if you are going to add them can you at least provide the source material?
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The speech was given to tell all that opposed Katherine, that he was going to face her militarily,
Post dated 05/26/12 12:16PM – “Victor did not start the War”
And what about the reason for starting the war?
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As outright assassinating him would indeed show Katherine's hand
And yet how many times was the Joker able to get away with an assassination?
Thus what is the probability he could have assassinated Victor and gotten away with it – better than even money?
This is the problem with the writers they believe that Katherine wants to play with Victor like a Cat with a mouse – rather than being her father’s daughter who would go straight for your neck, so you had better be ready or she will just destroy you outright from the get go!
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And with this, you are trying to suggest Katherine is innocent by reason of insanity, yet she has shown no signs of it with planning the entire situation.
Can you please point out where I made this assumption?
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Where do we get this new book
I see you did not comprehend that you are supposed to reference existing books from which you knowledge of BattleTech originated.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/22 10:40 AM
45.51.181.83
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The false statements don't stop, do they? there is a complete and utter absence of any evidence to prove a causal link between that of Katherine and the assassination.
This is not the truth, and you know it. They do have proof of the link. They don't have the witness that gave them that proof. Remember? The assassin had escaped before any sort of trial and was eventually killed. Katherine is not going to say she did it. All others are dead in that chain. Or at least not coming forward to say anything. They still have the evidence.
The wiki here even says she hired the assassin to kill her mother. This is not a novel. As I do not own the books after the initial clan invasion.
So back to might makes right? Your example shows someone stealing a throne, and that response came from suggesting that a reagent can give away a throne to someone else. Now it's ok, since the person on the throne say so?
Still not getting the fact that no one person is needed to run a government? The only thing the ruler does is make things to his liking, if the others allow it. So many orders ignored or overturned by others, that thwarted a kings desire have been done, since no ruler is absolute, even the worse dictators. There is always some group that makes sure things are done right, which is rarely the leaders way of doing things.
Given the lack of commercial transports, why would commercial jumpship be used to bring forces into a hostile area and remain there? Some of the units sent have the jumpships listed in their TO&E. The archon would not be taking commercial transports as they are not OWNED by the FS. Even in her rush of power, she will not risk losing those that work in the LC from seizing others. Independents do avoid such realms. Part of why certain ones have issues.
Are you forgetting things posted a couple of days ago? Then go back and reread the posts. The civil war started before Victor even go back from the clan fight. Katherine had already started military operations against those that did not bow to her demands the moment she took office. She even went after those that were trying to stay out of it. There is some information from the very article on Katherine and Melissa that you posted about Katherines state of mind and action, including her ordering her mothers dead. I am not going to keep reposting that stuff as your retention of things you don't want to hear seems to be seconds after you read that information.
The assassin would have had a much harder time getting to Victor. The military is a little bit more responsive of intruders then most areas. The patterns of a commanding officer in a time of war, is harder to predict then a civilian commander that has their schedule posted.
Also, the assassin got away physically, but they knew who it was. They also knew who sent him.
Katherine breaking the law, then saying it wasn't broken is where you suggest insanity is how to get crimes to be legal.
Where do we get this new book that you keep referring to? Where the Bear, Falcons and Wolves lose their territory. Where Melissa dies and no one figures out who did it.
Where do we get the book of fan fiction that is the basis for all the falsehoods posted to support your views?
Oh yeah. there isn't one, as only the canon line is published. Anything else is a copyright infringement.
And from now on, list book and page under all your responses. Done having to call them out every time, as more then a few in the past several months have been outright.
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ghostrider
05/28/22 11:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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Just looked up the budget process and you left out some major components that change the whole process.
First off, the president contacts the OMB to get a budget made up. The president himself does NOT make it up.
It then moves to congress to get it worked out, and if it passed, then it is sent back to the president to sign it.
So no. The president does NOT make up the budget. He puts in his wishes, but others do the actual number crunching.
This is yet another purposefully leaving out information to make it sound like things are different then what they really are.
And believing a fictional story shows why logic is failing. They don't tell you everything, and some things are changed to avoid things like lawsuits or accusations of spying for other nations.
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