Requiem
06/01/22 07:57 PM
101.185.10.60
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Question – how can two clans form a Star League? As does this mean that the FC could have formed a rump star league also?
Question – given all the evidence as to what the first star league represented – books, videos etc – How can the Clans even say, with a straight face, that they are forming a Star League (as per first) when it is clear they have absolutely no idea what the Star League is?
Question – does this mean the Clans will undergo a reformation to what they should be ie. SLDF?
Question – What are TPTB thinking in going down this path – do they even understand who and what the Clans truly represent - as this is setting the game up for another Jihad!
All I can say is that I am thankful for creating my own Alt. as this history has completely gone off the rails (in my opinion).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/02/22 01:57 AM)
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cernvidx
06/18/22 06:50 AM
122.163.235.132
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i dont know the answers
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Frabby
06/18/22 09:58 AM
84.185.69.197
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The Clans hold that the first one of them to conquer Terra, aka the ilClan, will reform and assume leadership of the Star League.
Prove them wrong.
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ghostrider
06/18/22 11:34 AM
45.51.181.83
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Could it be that the leaders of the IS didn't care about the SL? That they realized that only full conquest would allow something like that to survive, at least until the clans forced cooperation among them houses? Anyone can claim to form such a union, but actually making it work is the issue.
As with everything in the world, you form things to your views. The SL changed several times with each leader in charge. Some programs were ended, while others were instituted, so suggesting the SL was the same for the entire history of it is missing more then a few facts. The fact the TH and the FWL started the whole SL concept rolling tells this. Do you think the SL didn't change in order to get the other houses aboard? Some basic concepts survived, but modified with each new law.
The clans are going to make the SLDF in their image. The name is all that matters. How they operate compared to what people think will be different. They can very much continue the way of the clans, and still become the SLDF. The ideals of what you think they should be won't match.
The vision of TPTB are going to be what they want. Whether it matches your vision doesn't matter, as you will buy the books no matter what. They understand who and what the clans are, as they created them. Again, whether you agree or not doesn't matter. They will make the game their way. Part of the pleasure of owning the company.
Don't praise the logic ridden vision called the alt so much, as it still follows the logic ridden canon storyline, with a few changes. As the story line in the alt still seems to follow canon past points that would have changed the future, and didn't shows this.
Now, put up the link to where people can find this alt storyline, as then they can use it to pick apart the logic issues there. So far, only one person knows much about it.
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Karagin
06/18/22 11:43 AM
70.118.172.64
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Can I argue that the SL is a sham since it failed to live up to its governing principles from day one? And each successor has failed to live up to the charter as well? Did we mention that?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/18/22 01:40 PM
1.147.104.152
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They understand who and what the clans are, as they created them. Again, whether you agree or not doesn't matter. They will make the game their way. Part of the pleasure of owning the company.
Whist simultaneously running the company into the grave.
This is why I refuse to purchase any book past a certain point now – the story line is no longer viable or worth reading, as I will now stay in my own Alt.
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put up the link to where people can find this alt storyline
Why? when considering all past attempts at creating a discussion have failed.
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the SL is a sham since it failed to live up to its governing principles from day one?
I hope everyone realizes that the SL was formed purely as an economic union – similar to the EU.
I would also like to point out that no one has ever explained why a military ruler of a vast empire would allow a jumped up second rate realm like the TH, and their “First Lord” to assume total control as this completely goes against the guiding principles of military dictatorship.
Especially when you realize that the past two leaders have not spent a dime on military R&D as the money has all gone to intelligence and diplomatic agencies.
Also, once more I have to ask where were the Lawyers when the SL was established as canon version of the SL can only be described as beyond rational understanding from the point of view of any House Lord.
In all reality if you want a viable SL then it must come from the point of view of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and over time devolves into the mess of the Battle of Camlann all else is devoid of any reality when discussing the SL and the SLDF.
Thus making the Clans and the third SL a complete and utter sham of an idea, as any historian would laugh at the Clan’s SL as being the antithesis to the original …
As the original should concern freedom and human rights for all, whereas for the clans it is total repression and the worst form of dictatorship ever devised.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/18/22 03:24 PM
70.118.172.64
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Any reformed Star League should be a rally point for the other Houses and powers to unite to stop it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/18/22 06:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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Why would a military ruler of a vast empire allow a second rate realm to take over?
This shows a complete lack of understanding of the game during that time frame.
First off, the only military ruler during that time frame was house Kurita. All the others were basically political governments. The little fighting that did happen was to bring about the 5 large houses. After that, most of them were looking to the SL to keep them safe. The TH/SL was the technological leader at the time, so they joined up to ride the coat tails of the research of the SL in order to catch up.
Given the question of this really makes a person wonder if any understanding of that time frame was there.
That is like asking why any state would allow another state to run the government. This includes the entire world, not the U.S. as the states wording would suggest. The U.K. was brought together by opposing factions, as well as Rome and others. Some were conquered, so that is a point, but most joined together for other purposes then conquest.
The King Arthur example is a prime example of the very thing argued against. Why would the knights come together under the rule of one person, while they each ruled separate counties? But the irony here will be missed.
As for the website, it shows there is no real concept of the alt. The discussions brought here do not reflect a fully defined concept that others can read and understand. So until there is, the alt appears to be a completely false front to argue unknown concepts as facts.
As Frabby pointed out, the clans had their goal to create a new star league with one of them in charge. As they hold Terra, they can claim the mantle because of the location of the original SL capital is theirs.
Will the others fall in line? Very doubtful, but they can claim all they want.
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Karagin
06/18/22 09:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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Some will fall in line, because of tradition and all that others will say screw it and fight because they want to be the top dog and some will be like uhmm, yeah not our monkey so not our circus and do their own thing. The Clans have the same failings as the rest of the Inner Sphere. The Homeworld Clans are not going to bow down to the Wolves and so there is that issue and the current issues with the Wolf Empire or whatever it's going to end up as means more of the same old same old. That is if we can get decent writing and not a rehash of the Dark Age single lance beats up things and plot armor units win the day without even trying hard kind of stuff.
The Alt is just that an Alt, it's not canon. It's not even remotely close to being important and yet here we all are giving him the 15 minutes of time to fix the issue of his Alt. Issues that we have pointed out time and again to him. I am starting to wonder if he understands that once you make changes to the things then the canon outcomes are no longer possible as written and would be different results? Well for the want of a nail...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/18/22 10:53 PM
1.147.104.152
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This shows a complete lack of understanding of the game during that time frame.
TH
Deborah Cameron 2501 – 2542 – Aggressive Peacemaking
Joseph Camron 2542 –2549 Continuation of the Aggressive Peacemaking policy
For the past 48 years no real military R&D.
Raw materials desperately required – future requirement – strip mining
Hence ability to manufacture any sizeable military is a no go.
FWL Founded 2271
CC Founded 2310
LC Founded 2341
DC Founded 2319
FS Formed 2314
Fully functioning empires with fully functioning militaries.
By the time of the SL, therefore, all empires have been in existence for 200 years.
Q.E.D. Kurita was NOT the only military ruler.
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most of them were looking to the SL to keep them safe.
Sorry but no – the SL was supposed to end the age of war via economic cooperation.
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The TH/SL was the technological leader at the time
Again this cannot be considered correct as the TH does not have the resources as well as the fact that they have not spent a dime on military R&D as well as expanding / maintaining their military for the past 48 years (as noted above).
So TPTB created an underlining story and then completely ignored it because it became an obstruction to their overarching story.
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they joined up to ride the coat tails of the research of the SL in order to catch up.
Then why did they put up with the Mother Doctrine which restricted the dissemination of advanced technologies?
If the aim is to advance the entire SL technologically then the Mother Doctrine must not be allowed to exist!
i.e. you want me to join the SL I want full access to ALL technology as well as the removal of all export restrictions – i.e. a free trade zone etc.
Again this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to economic politics via trade.
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That is like asking why any state would allow another state to run the government.
You do realize that this is not about states within a single country that want to be added dur to the fact they want economic prosperity - it is about empires with hundreds of worlds and billions of citizens each maintaining vast military industrial facilities and who’s economies are well established and thriving.
Thus making this comparison mute.
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The U.K. was brought together by opposing factions
Actually it was brought together by succession due to the death of one monarch and the subsequent identification of their heir.
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Some were conquered
At what point did the TH conquer any House?
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Why would the knights come together under the rule of one person, while they each ruled separate counties?
Please read as to the what the round table represented as well as what Camelot represented.
But again the irony here will be missed.
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it shows there is no real concept of the alt.
How can arguments be made when I have never presented the end form of my alt – and I have no intention of ever posing it?
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the clans had their goal to create a new star league with one of them in charge. As they hold Terra
Thus any military that can hold Terra from this point forward can state I am the Star League whist every other military just sits back and laughs as the Star League requires a unity of ALL states other wise it is just a rump parliament with no mandate from the people. Any fool can make this assumption. Until every IS great House etc acknowledges this it is just a pointless and pathetic statement by a child screaming that she/he is king of the hill just because!
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Well for the want of a nail...
I created a vastly superior story that actually makes sense.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/22 12:07 AM
45.51.181.83
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Wasn't it said that research is hit and miss on what does get a breakthru? It could be years before anything happens or a few months. As I have not seen anything that resembles a budget for the SL in any timeframe, the supposition is horrible here.
The concept of not having raw materials was the original concept of the TH, but in recent posts it was shown this is not the case. The idea that the entire set of systems the TH had was completely out of resources has been shown as bs, along with not having enough food. And if they were completely out of resources, how did they build so much? It is highly unlikely the other realms provided the materials for the amount of items the TH/SL built.
What definition are you using for military ruler? The one commonly used as is that they used military force to make all deals, with out any political give and take. The only one that was formed from military conquests was the DC. Even the CC had used politics to come together.
To end the age of weapons, someone has to be the police force of the IS. Who was that?
Right back to the falsehoods: Again this cannot be considered correct as the TH does not have the resources as well as the fact that they have not spent a dime on military R&D as well as expanding / maintaining their military for the past 48 years (as noted above).
The TH WAS the technological leader of the IS, as no one had the tech the TH had. That was why some joined up. To gain that technology. Doesn't matter if others had spent more on tech, the houses were playing catch up to come close to what the TH had.
Can't figure out that the SL lied to the others, by waving the tech in front of the houses in order to get them to sign, but had no intention to allow them that tech?
Funny how this applies to your response: Again this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to economic politics via trade.
You promise things you don't intend on following thru with, to get others to sign on. I guess that doesn't register in your view.
Miss this statement: This includes the entire world, not the U.S. as the states wording would suggest. ? First off, the states of the U.S. were not part of a single country before the revolutionary war. This goes for the countries in Europe as well. The EU and AU are both political bodies that formed from countries joining up to allow someone to coordinate control over the entire continent. SO again, not reading the whole statement and missing the context.
How many counties/cities were conquered in history to become part of a nation? Most of Europe and Asia, as well as Africa, and even parts of south America. This is also true with the U.S. as the native Americans were subjected to being conquered. Maybe reviewing history is needed. That was part of the paragraph saying about world history, not the future of the game. Context yet again.
And yet again, fictional writings being pushed forward as reality. In the book, only Arthur was king or leader of any nation, and when he started, he was not even that. The rest were used to subject other kingdoms and nations to be part of the nation created.
More of the same crap? Your own statements were the alt was the only viable solution to the game story, yet now you are saying it isn't even done? How is it the only solution if it changes every time a point is brought up?
Wake up to reality. ANY of the houses or even small companies could claim the title of First Lord of the SL at any time in the history of the game. If anyone actually does anything but laugh is the real question of that.
There is only one person that has seen this story, so vastly superior, yet constantly changed doesn't make sense. It is based and will never remove itself from, a story that doesn't make sense according to the person that has based their story on a faulty story. Just as claiming the SL mantle, anyone can claim their idea is superior, yet without seeing the actual material, that claim falls short. Now drop the constant alt line until there is something anyone can read besides you. Show the website to read it. I can say my view is beyond superior, but without proof, it is all Bovine Excrement.
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Requiem
06/19/22 04:59 AM
1.147.104.152
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Wasn't it said that research is hit and miss on what does get a breakthrough?
Yes it is a game of hit and miss – However, it is a permanent miss when research funding has been removed as without funding there is no research to begin with.
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The concept of not having raw materials was the original concept of the TH, but in recent posts it was shown this is not the case.
And yet the replacement of raw materials, as written, was described as being sourced from the periphery post-unification war.
Also the idea of where, and what they were manufacturing, from these vast TH manufactory facilities resides were never made evident so can someone point out where these vast facilities are?
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What definition are you using for military ruler?
Semantics
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To end the age of weapons, someone has to be the police force of the IS. Who was that?
Sorry but I have to laugh now – at no point within the entire history of the IS has there been an age to end weapons.
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The TH WAS the technological leader of the IS
In all fields?
If this is the case then every lawyer, economist etc. within every house would have stipulated multiple clauses within their individual acceptance of the SL documents to ensure technological parity will be enforced (dissemination of technology) to ensure every house will receive advanced tech.
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Can't figure out that the SL lied to the others
Can’t figure out that if the TH lied about the dissemination of advanced tech this would have been an automatic dissolution of the SL clause!
Which demonstrates that the writing is back to being a plebian boy-own adventure book of the late 1800’s (for the prepubescent) without any real substance to underpin what should be basic economics.
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You promise things you don't intend on following thru with, to get others to sign on. I guess that doesn't register in your view.
If the TH do not follow through, then their allies loose all trust and decide to take their bat and ball and go home as the TH has now demonstrated that it is completely untrustworthy.
In the real world you make a promise you will have to follow through …
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The EU and AU are both political bodies that formed from countries joining up to allow someone to coordinate control over the entire continent.
The European Union was created to ensure peace, prosperity, and stability on the continent – it does NOT control the individual governments of its member states.
As for the African Union this was formed to defend the sovereign states, eradicate colonialism, promote cooperation etc. guess how well that worked out?
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How many counties/cities were conquered in history to become part of a nation?
Since when did the TH invade and conquer any great House other than those within the Periphery?
Thus the great Houses are INDEPENDENT STATES just the same as those in the EU!
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In the book, only Arthur was king or leader of any nation
In which dystopian book are you reading? Or is it just the movies?
The books are vast and complex especially when you read the stories of each individual knight and their individual story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Round_Table
Camelot represents a society in perfect harmony – the idea of equality among citizens which is symbolized by the Round Table at Camelot. It is the notion that though our problems, while significant, are never insurmountable.
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ANY of the houses or even small companies could claim the title of First Lord of the SL at any time in the history of the game.
First Succession War
DC announces they are first Lord of the SL – did any other House take this as reality?
The answer is NO.
So when the clans state because we have taken Terra we war now the new SL – will any House take this as a reality?
The answer again is NO.
Delusional as the reality of statements is no way to establish a validity towards an empire’s status.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/22 11:02 AM
45.51.181.83
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No word on where you got the information on where the budget of the SL came from? No funding for research is a lie without the budget to prove it.
No semantics. A military ruler uses force in all cases, while a normal ruler uses force only as a last resort. And this doesn't mean when the opponent won't surrender under the threat of war. So if you can't answer this one, then stop throwing up garbage trying to sound like fact.
Laugh hard, as you were the one to suggest the end of the age of weapons.
Or did you forget the post before last you wrote: Sorry but no – the SL was supposed to end the age of war via economic cooperation.
As stated, someone has to be the police force in order to even attempt reducing weapons across the IS.
DO you think the TH/SL didn't have their own lawyers working against releasing the tech? Have you never heard of lies being said with no intention of following thru? This happens all the time. And the SL did release tech that the other houses didn't have. It was not what the houses really wanted, but it was better then what they had. Once signed, the houses were not about to pull out of the agreement because they were not receiving the most advanced tech in the field they wanted. As it has been pointed out in history, giving others military tech tends to have it used against you.
Were does it say that clause? I have not seen anywhere that is says the SL would be dissolved if they lie. All agreements have some lies in there. But prove the clause.
Guess real world example time. Lies as told all the time, especially by politicians. They promise to help the common person, yet end up helping just those that pay them extra funds. Big business does the same thing, as well as the medical field.
Both unions do hold power over the individual states. So they gave up some power in order to be part of the larger entity. The statement of a nation not giving up their power is false. There is always something that has to be given in order to join a larger entity. So your statement on that never happening is yet again, another flawed statement.
Didn't the TH/SL release hundreds of worlds from their government, only to conquer them to bring them back into the fold? And again, the statement was about history of earth, not the game. Read the text. What is actually written, not the glance over and respond to things not there.
Perfect harmony? Where in the book did it say all crime was eradicated? All nobles were not forcing their people into poverty so they can get richer? The the lords of the land were not sponsoring bandit raids against each other? Or that they stopped attacking foreign nations, in order to increase their power? The fact another army defeated them, says it was not the perfect concept. And yet it is but a fictional book.
Your last response answers your initial question.
You remember this from the first post? Question – how can two clans form a Star League?
Anyone can form a Star League. Whether it is laughed at or survives in the issue.
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Requiem
06/19/22 07:15 PM
1.124.28.209
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No funding for research is a lie without the budget to prove it.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Deborah_Cameron
“She poured resources and funds into the Hegemony's Central Intelligence Bureau (HCIB) and the Department of Foreign Relations (DFR) to expand their powers for the Hegemony's new goals.”
“the Hegemony Armed Forces were not pleased with losing their significant position as important assets of the nation.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ian_Cameron_(26th_c.)
“He first increased funding towards new military innovations and research, in order to appease HAF's military and trying to shore up the Hegemony's dwindling technological edge over its interstellar neighbours.”
Q.E.D. money was diverted from the military to the HCIB and DFR during this 48 year reign of both Deborah and her eldest son.
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semantics
Consider the writings of Carl von Clausewitz.
Also consider the vastly different political positions between a despot utilizing the military and that of a president using the military …..
Semantics ….
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the SL was supposed to end the age of war via economic cooperation.
Whist this was occurring did any House dismantle their military completely or did they shore up their military with newly designed weapon systems?
I do believe it was the latter as shadow wars still occurred between the great Houses.
The idea that the Cameron’s could dictate the size of any House’s military whist expanding theirs exponentially at their dime is a ludicrous position.
As no one can police any state in reducing weapons / size of their military – what occurs next is just hiding production facilities as well as military bases etc. to maintain parity.
Or are we back to structuring the IS as the same way as boys-own adventure books in the 1800’s?
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DO you think the TH/SL didn't have their own lawyers working against releasing the tech?
How else are you going to get the remaining Great Houses to sign on?
There must be a master list of what is in and what is out … and as the TPTB never sat down and actually did the hard work we all suffer due to the stupidity of inadequate writing.
If the Cameron’s were allowed to Lie then by extension all other Lords could at the same time lie about everything at the same time …. And what we now have is a state where no one is trusting each other and all states are building their military for a vast interstellar war.
Suggest looking at King John and Runnymede (Magna Carta) as to the effects of what happens when trust breaks down.
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It was not what the houses really wanted
Oh look, it was a good idea to put that cat flap in the nuclear powered sub!
Advanced Teck = Increased Economic Development = Increased Wealth, power and prestige = Increase in the size of empire via explorer ships = Increased military forces ….. etc
Also where is each Houses’ military R&D at this stage – as noted above the TH’s technology was only very marginally greater than that of the Houses – so why couldn’t they pull ahead in certain fields ….
Once again we are back to very poorly written and thought out plots …..
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I have not seen anywhere that is says the SL would be dissolved if they lie.
Show me a treaty where the major parties violated the major terms and still remained?
Once it is seen as greener on the other side they will jump ship – i.e. the break up of the USSR.
Also countries are not big business.
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So your statement on that never happening is yet again, another flawed statement.
Question – how far can the EU interfere in French politics?
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Didn't the TH/SL release hundreds of worlds from their government, only to conquer them to bring them back into the fold?
At what point did this occur?
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Perfect harmony?
Camelot is an idea … a wish to strive to … it is not factual …
Also did the origins of Knights become evident? as well as the reason for the round table?
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Anyone can form a Star League. Whether it is laughed at or survives in the issue.
Then as per 1st Succession War declarations of war every state’s title is incorrect from the get go … as we should therefore have
The Star League of the FWL, the CC, the LC, the DC, and the FS and not just the names provided …. And every House Lord should change their title to First Lord Archon, First Lord Prince, First Lord Coordinator …… etc.
Thus making the entire proposition a complete joke.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/22 08:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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Put up the link to the budget for the time frame that no real R&D was done. Having the budget cut is not the same as not having any money at all, which is the way it was put.
The example given does NOT support losing R&D funding. It says the military was not happy being pushed into the background of importance. So once again, a lie covered by trying to twist what is said.
The statement of: “the Hegemony Armed Forces were not pleased with losing their significant position as important assets of the nation.” suggest the military budget was cut, not research.
Consider facing the facts. A military ruler uses force to rule. The only military ruler during the creation of the SL was the DC. Quoting or trying to suggest reading other crap doesn't change this. The FS, LC, and FWL were basic democracies, as the regions within voted for things, while the CC was more towards a coop. Dictatorship, IE the DC, was the only military ruler at the time. Even the TH wasn't military ruler.
Sorry. Where did it say the houses did any dismantling of their forces? The main thing said was limiting their forces, which started the downfall of the SL.
You missed the entire concept of the SL being the main military power here. The SL was going to keep the peace, so the houses could work towards their infrastructure, without worrying so much about their neighbors striking at them. This does not mean they completely neglected building up their own forces, but it did remove the burden of having a huge military to maintain. As the SL was the only one each house partially trusted, they would remain the police force.
Did you read the same materials everyone else did? All the houses together, much less a single house, could not match the SL for forces. Not sure where the crap of trying to comes from.
The TH said they would give more tech to the houses. Just because you think that means the latest and greatest military units as well as top tier tech, doesn't make it so. The tech would be things like upgraded medical equipment or even older ships that are still better then the ones the houses had. Something like a jumpships nav computer being able to calculate a jump in under a half hour instead of 3 hours.
What your suggesting is that the U.S. gives away their best tech to small countries to sign up with something like NATO. That just isn't going to happen.
Funny. You continue to run the alt along the canon storyline and say things like: Once again we are back to very poorly written and thought out plots …..
Another funny statement: Advanced Teck = Increased Economic Development = Increased Wealth, power and prestige = Increase in the size of empire via explorer ships = Increased military forces ….. etc
Where is it stated that having a gun that can destroy a planet increases economic developement? Other then extorting others into slavery?
Advanced tech that helps economies would be terraforming tech, as well as better mining equipment and processing equipment. Not everything is based on military advances.
More then a few treaties still are in effect even though all parties have lied about things. Trade treaties being one that gets canceled and reformed, only to have both sides lie, to redo it again.
The EU has a large grasp of what countries that are part of it can do. They can dictate terms of what can and can't be traded, forces move into what nations and more then a few other things. Each nation has the ability to fight it, but for the most part, France can not just bomb Germany or Spain because they feel like it. Nor can them just help push illegal drugs into other nations.
The release then conquering of worlds happened right after the great exodus. Where the TA left the colonies on their own, then reconquered them when they became the TH.
There was not perfect harmony in the king Arthur story. They united countries, but it was not a perfect harmony. If it was, then it would not have went back into a civil war. Other countries in the great nation would not have joined up to fight against Arthur. Oooops. Did that fact slip thru the cracks?
Well what do you know? You finally figured out why the SL was left behind after a few decades of war. And honestly, there were those titles when the houses were first formed. It was only after they fully formed they dropped most of the first titles. 9 archons with a first, 10 princes with a first. Each region of the DC had a coordinator...
The SL became a sick joke during the 1st succession war. In order to reform the SL, they had to kill everyone else off. By the 3rd war, most realized the SL was dead and not coming back.
Edited by ghostrider (06/19/22 11:20 PM)
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Karagin
06/19/22 09:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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One can do a lot with a bayonet except sit on it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/19/22 11:47 PM
1.124.23.123
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Quote:
So once again, a lie covered by trying to twist what is said. The statement of: “the Hegemony Armed Forces were not pleased with losing their significant position as important assets of the nation.” suggest the military budget was cut, not research.
Whereas the next statement “He first increased funding towards new military innovations and research …”
Makes it very clear that the research budget was cut.
Quote:
A military ruler uses force to rule.
Semantics …. This is a Feudal Society whereby all Houses have recognised that the warrior is now at the highest social status position … i.e. the ruler of each world (eg. Duke) also maintains the highest military rank for this world – hence it is just semantics …
Quote:
Where did it say the houses did any dismantling of their forces? - You missed the entire concept of the SL being the main military power here.
How hard is it to understand that …
2606 - Executive Order 34.
2613 – Security Mech Treaty.
2650 – Council Edict of 2650 …. Etc.
By not opposing these “SL laws” they in effect dismantle the size / effectiveness of all House military forces and by allowing the SLDF to leach off of each Houses Military Industrial Complexes all houses are effectively arming their political rival.
The SLDF gains in size as each House’s force is effectively neutered.
Quote:
The SL was going to keep the peace
Yes, keeping the peace at the end of gun is such a great political strategy!
Quote:
the houses could work towards their infrastructure, without worrying so much about their neighbours striking at them.
Then what was …
The use of “pirates’’ to strike at other houses … the Second Hidden War?
Quote:
the SL was the only one each house partially trusted, they would remain the police force.
Enforcers is a more apt term …
Quote:
Did you read the same materials everyone else did? All the houses together, much less a single house, could match the SL for forces.
And this is the problem – it is completely unbelievable that a great house would allow such a situation to stand – once it becomes obvious that the Cameron family had become Dictators – with issuing Executive Orders that bypasses all other House Lords – it is clear a war of self determination is on the off – Hence all Houses will begin establishing a hidden army to fight the SLDF to obtain their independence …
The problem is what was written was a boys-own 1800’s fluff piece that failed to take into account any realism.
The cannon story is about as believable as a cat flap in a nuclear powered sub at this stage!
Quote:
What your suggesting is that the U.S. gives away their best tech to small countries to sign up with something like NATO.
Really? Consider the following …
Feb 2022 Finland concluded the procurement contracts for the Lockheed Martin F-35A
15 May 2022 Prime Minister Sanna Marin and President Sauli Niinistö at the press conference announcing Finland's intent to apply to NATO – ie its application.
Not give away, but definitely the ability to purchase ….
So yes that definitely did happen.
Quote:
Where is it stated that having a gun that can destroy a planet increases economic development?
Basic Military Keynesian economic theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Keynesianism
Quote:
Trade treaties
And defence pacts?
Quote:
The EU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire
The EU can only act in those areas where its member countries have authorised it to do so.
Quote:
happened right after the great exodus.
Thus had absolutely nothing to do with the SL.
Quote:
There was not perfect harmony in the king Arthur story.
Which Arthurian literature version are you looking at? Remember the story represents its time.
Quote:
By the 3rd war, most realized the SL was dead and not coming back.
And that of the 4th Succession War it became obvious that the FC could reform the SL
With what should have been the fall of the CC by 3030 the IS now should have had only 3 Houses remaining – problem is TPTB ruined the entire game from this point forward due to their inability to manufacture a more realistic story …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/22 01:14 AM
45.51.181.83
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No. It doesn't say the research budget was cut. It just says the next person increased it. Much like there is a steady increase in several budgets of nations now. National defense sees some sort of increase almost every year, but that doesn't mean it was cut the year prior.
Semantics again? Try definitions. It appears a lack of vocabulary definitions continues to show up. I guess Ghandi was a dictator under the semantics.
Arming their political rivals, yet their political rivals would be arming them in that case. So where is the dismantling coming from? I see more smoke being blown around, yet we already know that the houses did NOT dismantle their forces. They did in fact increase their forces, and got free training for those that served the SL as well.
Where is it written that each house could not leave the SL? Where is it written that the only way to independence was thru force of arms? You mean the lawyers did not have an out clause like the LC had with the FS for the FC? Prove that the clause did not exist. Where is the printed form from a canon source at? Not the fake garbage that keeps coming up from someone pushing an alt.
Peace at the end of a gun. That is a military ruler's vision. But I doubt this will sink in.
Wow. Enforcers that kept the peace, instead of the IS nuking themselves silly hundreds of years earlier. What do you think a police force is? They enforce the laws. Your implication suggests they were dictator secret police that killed for pleasure. This was not the case in most scenarios. There is always someone that will violate their oaths, but that is not the norm.
Yeah. The houses joined up with the TH to form the SL, and they could not stand that their military was not the same size as the SL, which is interesting, as the house militaries were not the same size as the TH's military. So how does that work? Join the largest military in the galaxy, or fight it? In the end, the TH/SL was the largest force in the galaxy. So yeah. Something is wrong there. Maybe each house should have gone to war with the TH, as they had the largest military. Smart move...
Better wake up. The best tech was not given to Finland. They were able to purchase tech that is outdated by years. I have not heard of any super advanced tech given to them. The tech they bought could be had from any country. Why not try saying this about Haiti or Somalia. I guess they got nukes for free... OH wait. According to your statement, North Korea got them from the U.S.
As stated, besides extorting your neighbors into slavery. Again, read the entire statements.
Yet you said that no country would give up any rights for another to order it around. Funny how you show how to make false statement that you know are false, then prove they are false with your next post.
The nation that started the SL was the nation that did the deeds. The TH was formed from that very action, and it carried over into the SL. They even tried it with the periphery just before the end.
Represents it's time? Where nobles commited crimes against their people and got away with it until revolts succeeded. Arthur stole lands and revoked the people's rights across the lands, and did it in the name of harmony and progress. How many people lost everything because they were not supportive of losing everything to someone else with no choice? His own child destroyed the 'perfect' society made.
Hanse did not want to become first lord of a dead nation. Katrina did not seem to want it either, as she did not try and force her to be incharge of it. And no. It was not obvious the FC could reform the SL, as that meant having to go to war to subject the DC, FWL, and CC to make it. The history of the succession wars have shown that only crushing the enemy would allow the SL back, and Hanse did not want to even try that. The glowing worlds showed the folly to that, but it is something you don't comprehend. Victory or death being the motto that comes to mind.
As for realistic story, it runs pretty close to most in history. A charismatic leader leads a nation to greatness, only to have one of their spoiled children destroy it. And it wasn't Victor that did so, so don't bother.
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Requiem
06/20/22 05:01 AM
1.124.27.163
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Comprehension of totality of information / Read in conjunction with other posts the inference is the military received a severe budget cut and only after 48 years was their budgetary amount increased.
If Ghandi was the Lord of his World and at the same time their military’s commanding officer then yes this is semantics ….
The Council Edict of 2650 is reducing the number of available forces – i.e. dismantling their existing forces.
2578 – Lyran Commonwealth attempts to secede from the Star League – what happened here?
When the SLDF has a vast military force far in excess of all Houses then yes this does become peace at the end of gun!
The SLDF are the personal enforcers of the First Lord! Enforcers are overt not covert – the idea with enforcer is to be seen when you step on someone when they step out of line to demonstrate the power of lord over their vassals.
So how does that work?
Simple – covertly build up their forces to maintain parity, which should be incredibly simple when you consider that Amaris (RWR) was able to pull it off.
Question how is the F-35 outdated by years – what is more advanced than this? and how can you purchase an F-35 from another country?
According to your statement North Korea got them from the U.S.
This statement is just an out and out misconception of what was written – The fact remains the original statement is correct.
What are the aims of the UN? And why was it established?
In understanding this it becomes understandable as to what is occurring and why these countries enter into agreements in order to establish an economic advantage.
Arthur stole lands and revoked the people's rights across the lands, and did it in the name of harmony and progress – in which story was this discussed – also in which version was it discussed.
Question - Hanse did not want to become first lord of a dead nation. – how is this going to occur at the end of the 4th Succession War?
Also if two realms have merged together and a third has been wiped out of existence and the FWL is a basket case how is this not obvious that the SL is about to be reformed under Hanse?
As shown in previous forum post the CC could never have withstood the 3030 war!
And post 4th Succession War the FWL do not have any viable leadership …
As for realistic story, it runs pretty close to most in history. A charismatic leader leads a nation to greatness, only to have one of their spoiled children destroy it. -
Really? There are more plot holes in this story where it becomes important to just bang your head against a wall just to remain sane …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/22 10:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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So by your definition, there is no other type of ruler but military. Good to know. This shows a lack of understanding definitions of things yet again.
The term enforcers tends to be a negative image for troops. It has also become clear that anarchy is the only thing that is acceptable to have, unless a certain someone is in charge, then dictatorship is used. According to the responses, no other form of government exists. Just military dictatorship or anarchy.
Do you understand that the military has outdated electronics and such in units that are sold to other nations? The fighters sold to Finland, and other countries as well are not the top of the line units. Also the if I know right, the F-35 is a jointly made fighter. So it is NOT a U.S. only built fighter. Germany and others build it. So it is NOT giving U.S. high tech to other nations.
All the stories versions has Arthur and his followers attacking all the people of the country that did not just fall down to the ground and bend their knee to him. Crime still happened, and if you check out some of the missions the knights went on, they were the criminals. No sort of discussion to end things without violence. Just submit or die.
The SL was dead, and Hanse was fine to leave it that way. Had the CC been completely destroyed, the FWL would have gotten over their issues and actually joined together to fight the FC properly. They would have seen what was to come and did something about it. And end to the fighting is what Hanse wanted. The concept is foreign to you, but absolute power is not the only method of securing that. The SL was set up originally to allow diplomatic solutions to problems, but when corrupt people got into power, it became the dictators dream. Each house has gone thru the same thing the SL did. Human nature cycled thru it's phases.
Obvious the the SL was not going to be formed under Hanse? Maybe reading his thoughts on the situation. He did not have the motivation to even try to become first lord. That definitely was said as he was thinking about the invasion of Luthien. Or did you miss that one as well?
Keeping with the goal of humiliating Max, the 4th war was not about becoming first lord. It was to destroy Max Liao, and take away his ability to threaten the FS/FC. This is stated a few times in several books. It was to punish Max, and the CC as they were the ones that bore the brunt of the losses.
Had the 3039 war went better, then the idea may have crossed his mind, but in the clan invasion, it was shown he thought the SL was permanently dead. That is the way he thought when he first took over as leader of the FS.
It was given the reasons why the CC survived, though I don't like the outcome. In game, the CC was still used to buffer parts of the FWL border, and the DC was starting to make headway. The interdiction from Comstar showed the total war change over was hurting the economy as well as the people. So Hanse ended it. This is all printed in the source books. No where in any of them does it say the 4th war was to create a new SL.
So life repeating itself is a plot hole? Explains why logic seems to be just out of reach at times. And you should stop banging your head against the wall. That may be why reading between the lines and 'superior' comprehension hasn't been true.
Until you can prove the Alt is good, just drop it. Post a link to everyone can see the whole thing and decide for themselves. The claim the writers of the games story line is horrible, yet the only solution can not be viewed at all. Do you think the developers don't constantly say their vision is the only solution, and it is the best?
Prove the alt is better. Put up or shut up.
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Requiem
06/20/22 08:09 PM
1.124.18.96
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Military Ruler Definition
- In BattleTech Terms - Political regime in which the military, as an organization, holds the preponderance / administration of power upon worlds and the Interstellar empire as a whole.
Enforcers
- Unknown juxtaposition from overt capabilities to that of anarchy.
F-35
https://www.quora.com/Is-the-US-version-...tional-versions
“There are no differences between the US acquired F-35 & the foreign customer’s F-35s that are intended to give the US a superior version.”
King Arthur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur#:~:text=King%20Arthur%20(Welsh%3A%20Brenin%20Arthur,5th%20and%20early%206th%20centuries.
https://www.bartleby.com/essay/Code-Of-C...%20of%20conduct,safe%2C%20and%20good%20it%20was.
Including the following quote …
“This basic code of conduct is to treat each other with respect, be courageous, have honour in our actions, do not hurt anyone, stand up for what is right and be honest. Because the Knight of the round table followed this code Camelot became known for how chivalrous, safe, and good it was. As a result, common people of the land placed immense trust and faith in the knights which led them to try and emulate it among themselves to live up to their heroes’ expectations.”
The SL was dead, and Hanse was fine to leave it that way.
Problem here is that facts get in the way – as to why the war codified as “The Fourth Succession War”?
Hanse Davion is a warlord of his time, meaning his, and that of his realm, sole aim is to restore the Star League under the Rulership of the Liege Lord (Hanse).
Fact – The 3039-40 War provides Hanse with the perfect chance to remove Liao / CC from the board – and only TPTB’s ineptitude saved this state from their true fate of becoming a conquered state.
FWL – September 3030 Duchy of Andurien seceded from the League, and allied with the Magistracy of Canopus – providing Hanse with the perfect foil in the CC’s rear. The Duchy of Oriente also would be more than willing to strike the CC in the back at the same time as Hanse’s war of conquest – they have a deep-seated desire for revenge against the Capellans, and again Hanse can exploit this if desired.
Can you therefore explain in clear coherent terms as to how superior the Clan Invasion / FC Civil War is?
As far as I can see it is pathetically written diatribe of the most ludicrous invasion and stupid war between that of a brother and sister ever written – it is on terms with 1800’s boys-own adventure books for its level of inept writing and staging of events! It is just that bad!
Sorry but I have no desire to ever post my final alt history, all that is required is that my history confirms to my sensibilities, I do not have to prove anything to anyone!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/20/22 09:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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How can an ALT be used to prove anything since, yet again, it's not canon, thus it's going to be wrong.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/20/22 10:10 PM
1.124.31.75
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A personal ALT does not have to prove anything since it is not canon, it is for the personal enjoyment of she/he who wrote it and thus is going to be correct only for the one who constructed the Alt.
To all others they may view it as wrong – but again they view canon as being the sole depository of knowledge and cannot contemplate their being anything but canon.
Though, on a personal note, I cannot see why as the canon story is so incredibly pitifully written that in too many cases the story and the characters lose all credibility.
Is it at all possible that we now return to the original questions?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/22 10:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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Where in all of the books does the game defines a military ruler as your definition? The organizations besides the DC, use other methods to get things done other then military pressure.
And yet, those that were ruling the country were not sitting at the round table besides Arthur. So the rules of conduct did not apply to them like it did the knights. This is part of why the knights had to run patrols throughout the realm, in order to keep the peace. Some even attacked the knights in order to be rid of them.
The use of the 4th succession war was far better then the war to punish Max Liao. As all houses were involved in the war, the succession title was put into effect. Hence the 3039 war was not a succession war, though given your insistence that all wars were to re-establish the SL would suggest. Not difficult to figure that out. Much like the World Wars verse most other wars, even though multiple nations are involved.
Ineptness? The logical opponent was the DC. This argument has been done before and you lost then. Why try again now? Had Comstar not got involved, the DC would have been hurting without having another realm ready to reinforce it. The FWL and CC was not about to get involved.
And there you stated it. Hanse could have exploited it if he wanted to. So that means he was not trying to become the first lord of a dead nation. Next fact that needs to be restated again.
The continuation of using 'facts' that do not exist to argue canon is the very reason why the alt has to be proven or left out of the conversations.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
The alt will never be put up for all to read, as the logic issues do not get removed, but compounded by more illogical instances that seem to always come out with the same end game. The writer of a story will always say their story is far better then anything, but yet won't let anyone else see it, as they would rip it apart as done with canon.
And yet the lies continue. Who here has said canon was without fault? Just the opposite is done. What is being said is that the views of one person continues to be shoved into coversations as fact, when only those put out by the makers are considered fact. This is the basic concept lost to the alt writer. Others play alts, but they do not put up their views as facts, then argue it is the only way to fix the game. Just one person seems to do that.
You want back on topic, that was pretty much answered.
Anyone can claim a title to their nation. Whether others will laugh or take is seriously is the question.
Those that claim the title do NOT have to adhere to the originals concepts on how things are run. They will run it the way that is the most logical and makes sense to them.
Only the creators understand the entire concept of the clans. Other views are just that. Views. Someone using outside fake facts trying to say things such as the creators don't know their own creations is the problem.
This has been said before, and yet ignored before. Don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.
The canon story line has a lot of issues. No one that has posted since I have been here has said otherwise. More then a few have stated that the story line doesn't matter, as they play as they are going to, and leave it at that. Had it not been for trying to make more money, the entire back story should have been done only after they had all the history figured out. Retcons screws up a lot of problems that were there to begin with.
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Requiem
06/20/22 11:19 PM
1.124.17.189
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Please provide a definition of a military ruler as per BattleTech Books which incorporates all Bibliography information. If unable to locate then may I suggest utilizing a reputable definition as a template.
King Arthur
Please note these engagements occurred in foreign lands, as any engagements within Arthur’s lands were due to raids from foreign lands – As stated previously which version are you reading as the earliest version are from the 12th Century and then progress from there …
Or are you looking at this via Prince Valiant?
3039
Question what happens in the IS if Hanse did conquer the Capellan Confederation during the 3039-40 war?
Ans: Everyone is put on notice that Hanse is in a position to assume the title of First Lord.
So this definitely means that Hanse is definitely in a position to become First Lord!
Put up or Shut Up
I do not have to prove anything to anyone – my Alt is mine and mine alone!
Others play alts, but they do not put up their views as facts, then argue it is the only way to fix the game. Just one person seems to do that.
Question – As the game stands can it survive given what is occurring within Warhammer currently? Fix it now or very shortly BattleTech will only be a footnote within the gaming community in the near future due to becoming unviable when Warhammer becomes the monopolistic table-top war game for new entrants.
If no one takes this warning seriously so be it – I will remember the table-top game fondly for the good times.
However if anyone wants to resurrect the game from where it is now then serious changes must be implemented, as well as a massive marketing rebranding.
Only the creators understand the entire concept of the clans.
Really? Then why publish any books regarding the Clans in an attempt to explain them?
It is quite clear from all source books provided they are a dangerous anachronism that should never have been allowed in the game – remember the 1950’s Comics Censorship? You should given the current climate!
Question – Are Retcons a mistake or are they an attempt to fix previous mistakes in the hope of explaining canon inconsistencies – or should the entire back story be retired for one massive New Retcon History?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/21/22 12:12 AM
70.118.172.64
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Here is an idea, take some time, and present your COMPLETE ALT from start to finish. Then let us read it, go over it talk about it, and then we can give you the feedback you want. This piecemeal your's is better than canon approach isn't working.
Your ideas, are just that, yours. Just as my ideas on why I think everything post -3067 is complete garbage in my opinion are mine. Does it mean I am wrong? Nope, it just means I am not in agreement with the PTB, and that means I don't follow the canon setting anymore. That said, I am not pushing my ideas like they as gospel like you are Requiem. You want us to see your point of view then give it all to us, not in chunks. Give us the whole thing. chapter and verse. Otherwise, all you are doing is showing that you have poor fan fiction and do not like their fan fiction challenged. And unless you are going pull a Stephenie Meyer and take your fan fiction like she took her 50 Shades Fan Fiction and turn it into something else, I would suggest you stop now and find something else to discuss.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 12:33 AM
45.51.181.83
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Reputable definition? You think your definition is reputable? There are a few places in the old books that tell how each government runs. GO find them, as it is obvious you either haven't done so, or have forgotten most of what is printed.
As information from your fan fiction is constantly thrown up as facts and saying it is the only solution to the problems with the writing of the game, then say it is yours alone, then make it yours alone and stop shoving it down everyone's throat. There is only one person that says it is the only solution and no one else has been able to see it, makes everything sound like Blue Whale Excrement, as it is multi ton at this point.
Still not getting it thru your skull? Hanse could be in the position, yet he will not try to take the title. This has been said many times before, but yet the truth of the fact still doesn't register in your responses.
The books do explain how the clans run and operate, it just seems like one person decided they didn't like it and are putting out fan fiction in order to change it. Still doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, only the creators can say what is and isn't done in their creations.
You are worried about the game? Go buy the copyrights. I am going to assume they turned down your application to save them, so you are trying another approach. Go to the official Battletech board and try there.
As you keep saying show where the information is coming from, that will be the mantra with your information. Show me where I can read the 'facts' you keep throwing up. There is no where that anyone can read this supposed alt writings. No where that one can say it is better then the canon story, as what we have seen is full of holes, and that is without adding in the canon issues that keep getting followed.
Question – What are TPTB thinking in going down this path – do they even understand who and what the Clans truly represent - as this is setting the game up for another Jihad!
Do you even understand what the alt is suggesting? There is print on the clans that all can read. There is nothing on the alt that can be compared to. Just one person saying it is better.
Put up or shut up.
Retcons are supposed to clear up issues, but in most of the games retcon, they change the history of the game story. Things that were never in the game until the time of the retcon, but would have changed the story had something like the mobile HPG, or ER equipment had been found and duplicated. The thousands of SL bases and caches found, yet nothing that suggested the SL was better then anything up to the clan invasion.
Edited by ghostrider (06/21/22 12:41 AM)
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Karagin
06/21/22 01:04 AM
70.118.172.64
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He tried to buy the rights? Did I miss something? Another Jihad? I hope we aren't heading back to that piss poor storyline...gods no, please...not that crap again.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/21/22 01:08 AM
70.118.172.64
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If Requiem took his ALT to the main BT forums they would not entertain them anywhere near as nice as we do here. In fact, it's likely they would have tossed him off of the forums, but that's my opinion only, I don't speak for any of the moderators over. Now if he really wants honest input on his ALT over there would be a good place to get it, then he would be getting real FAN and a lot of FANBOY input for sure. Might be the best thing for him. Again my opinion only.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/21/22 03:49 AM
1.124.30.31
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Quote:
Feedback
I would suggest you stop now and find something else to discuss.
GO find them, as it is obvious you either haven't done so, or have forgotten most of what is printed.
makes everything sound like Blue Whale Excrement, as it is multi ton at this point.
then say it is yours alone, then make it yours alone and stop shoving it down everyone's throat.
Still not getting it thru your skull?
Put up or shut up.
He tried to buy the rights? Did I miss something? Another Jihad? I hope we aren't heading back to that piss poor storyline...gods no, please...not that crap again.
it's likely they would have tossed him off of the forums,
Can I please suggest re-reading what was written above as it reads as if being interested in creating negative waves against me personally than actually ever providing a positive critique.
This is why the Alt will never be provided.
Can I now please ask again can we get back on topic on hand? as we have strayed very far from the original topic.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 10:42 AM
45.51.181.83
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What? You continue to say that canon is horribly written, yet won't show your views as they would suffer the same fate? If it was good, that would not be a concern.
The questions posted at the beginning of the thread were answered. They were pretty simple. The fact that you said: All I can say is that I am thankful for creating my own Alt. as this history has completely gone off the rails (in my opinion).
This opens up the discussion to continue on with saying the put up or shut up about the alt.
Again.
Anyone can say their nation is the Star League in the game. Even a single world or band of pirates can claim it as such.
Given the information your provided, the SL was nothing more then a dictatorship run by the Camerons, with a horrible General named Kerensky. So it would be fitting that the legacy of Kerensky be the ones to reform it. As I do not share your views on the SL and the clans, I believe your 'facts' on the matter are all Whale Excrement. The view can be debated, but the 'facts' are misleading at best, down right completely false at times.
Saying the developers are out of their minds for producing the story line, then hiding the only solution alt, saying it is yours only, then saying that it is being presented for others suggests a failure of logic. I doubt you see the contradiction in that thought. Or did you ever intend to giving anyone that wanted to find out more, any sort of access to the full alt?
So in the end, the statement of giving people an alt has been proven false, as you will not give them the full details.
So yet again. The answers to the topic have been given. If you don't like it, there isn't much more to say on the subject.
Go to the official website and ask in there. I suspect you came here after being banned there.
And no. Requiem did not buy the rights to the game that I know of. He does seem to think that buying the product makes him the owner of the rights to the whole company, as he suggested more then a few times in the past. It was suggested they do so, and then they can 'save' the franchise by doing what he is doing here.
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Karagin
06/21/22 11:35 AM
70.118.172.64
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I am sure many of us would love to own the rights to the game and all that it entails sans the headaches. Having said that, I am sure we would all also enjoy the chance to fix things, but the questions then come up what is a good a fix without destroying things further, now that is the question. I think you are correct about your statement in your second to the last paragraph about why he won't ask the questions on other sites.
We have asked for the ALT to be presented to us, not sure what the issue is unless what I have been saying for a while is that he is using our feedback to write it, in that he has the crazy ideas and posts things and takes our critical comments to make things work for his writing. Would we get royalties from this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 02:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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I am pretty sure the alt changes with feedback given. The entire section of big wings and nukes seems to have changed. But this is why I agree that the alt is not set in stone.
A few other things have changed while the discussions have been going on.
As for fixing the entire game, I'm not sure it can be done without doing a full reset. The rule changes have destroyed the history continuity of the game and the retcons have made sure that it can't be fixed.
As more history is filled in, even more questions come up. The whole issue with the HPG network comes to mind. The Black Box and mobile units being left out for now, the question is how does anyone know if there is more code in the system then known? I can definitely see the SL having a few codes to shut down parts of the network, to prevent someone from taking the stations and using them to collect data on the SLDF movements and such.
A question that came up while typing this needs to be answered. Does the HPG have to pinpoint a specific station, or is it a shot gun effect? Can multiple receivers on a world get the data being sent?
I would think it much like a radio signal, where it spreads out. So any receiver onworld should be able to receive it. But without the information, this is speculation. As stated before, if it does have a single point it hits, then a cover on the HPG unit should block said signals, including outbound messages. Yes, the discussion of underground antenna does have a part in this, as it suggests nothing could block the signal.
The reason this is a question is I seriously doubt that someone could target anything, even as large as the antenna shown in pictures, something 30 light years away. The rotation of the world being known, it would still have issues tracking it in order to connect with the single antenna. The live messaging used for Katherine could never work, because of planet rotation.
Yes, the antenna could be in space, but nothing is said about fighters guarding the antenna. Those depicted are all ground based.
Other issues is things like infantry damage. A world that is attacked by a single lance of mechs, against a regiment of infantry and the lance wins would be different with the single point of damage by most energy weapons.
The engine in hover craft with the XL engines doesn't keep with the rules, though most say having dead weight would do so. That doesn't make sense. Why couldn't you use a smaller engine before the XL and do the same thing? Or why bother even having the restriction?
The retcon of food and being able to starve worlds is another game changer. Most of the threats used in war are removed like this.
A single rule set needs to be done, and reworking the entire history is needed. Not the crap of an alt, but a full fix of logic in the game itself. Mechs need to have something that gives them a unique advantage, as upgraded equipment can be used by all types of units. The MASC is on such piece of equipment that does this.
It would be funny if the alt was put out to try and make money on everything here. The owners of the game would have a field day with it. Though it would be nice to get a few hundred thousand dollars for cleaning up that mess.
After logging out, the idea that the lawsuits from Harmony Gold might have the developers boxed in. It is possible they are afraid to do somethings, as a lawsuit might come from it. It is always possible that they are being threatened by Harmony Gold as well, which caps doing things outside of what has been done already. Then again, writers block is possible.
Edited by ghostrider (06/21/22 03:02 PM)
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Karagin
06/21/22 03:01 PM
70.118.172.64
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Agreed, lots of issues.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 03:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Quit responding while I'm typing damn it. Makes it hard to add in things that might be missed.
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Requiem
06/21/22 03:19 PM
1.124.21.90
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First Question – Opinion is that anyone can say they are the reformed Star League. However, as stated this is completely unbelievable until all others their provide acceptance of the fact.
The following, however, are yet to be debated …
Question – given all the evidence as to what the first star league represented – books, videos etc – How can the Clans even say, with a straight face, that they are forming a Star League (as per first) when it is clear they have absolutely no idea what the Star League is?
Question – does this mean the Clans will undergo a reformation to what they should be ie. SLDF?
Documentary evidence as to the first Star League, the SLDF and Kerensky must on Terra – and what it stood for – many of their progenitors (whom provided their DNA and name) may also be documented within this vast library of information.
Given the modern version of the Clans are the antithesis of SLDF of Old what will they do given this wealth of first hand information? Reformation or bury it?
As from all available information it can be assumed they will destroy every piece of evidence as to the Star League of old that does not conform with their views of who they are … they are scared of the truth …
Problem is does anyone keep this information safe and pass it down from one true believer to the next – does the truth set the Clans free of their hate -will they be free in a future civil war based on the truth of who they should be … or will they cling to all the hate and propaganda they were forced to believe in ….
As per many countries today my bet is the Clans will accept ignorance and pre-programming dogma – they will be unable to see the truth as they are to ignorant as a society and as an individuals, all they can do accept the status quo and fling hate even in the face of truth.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 07:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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The information the clans had would be changed as each generation comes into power. Some things would be downplayed, such as spying, while other things, like honorable action in combat would be promoted. This happens in every nation throughout history and will continue into the future.
The clans have their version of the original SL, and have their version of what happened and what caused it to fail. The houses destroyed the SL, and need to be punished. And they are partially right. Each house lord did everything they could to be the next first lord, or destroy the SL entirely. Destroying it is what turned out to be the end result. As the other castes started to drag on the one caste that remained true to this vision, is the one that prevailed. As no other examples were seen for the time they were at the home worlds, no one could use comparisons.
As a side note, the IS version of the SL didn't follow the old SL, so there is still no end to it.
Using a national name and acting like the previous nation with that name is not close to guaranteed. The clans will run their SL as they envision it. No matter what anyone else says, they will view it as propaganda compare to the way they were taught. The visions of the Warden and Crusader is a prime example of this. Those in charge do not care what someone else will say is how things are supposed to run. It is that simple.
Where is it stated the clans are the antithesis of the Old SL?
As stated above, the clans will run things they way they see it should be run. The data in the IS has been twisted thru the succession wars, as shown by the fact they lost all the technological advances of the SL. So why should they think the other information is correct? The different houses believe the populations of the other houses are brainwashed, so why should it be any different with the clans? The IS population are barbarians after all.
Also, the old SL fell because of rot from the inside as well as outside. Why repeat that path, when you can form a better one with current views? For the clans, the SLDF was the way it should have done things, not the back room deals that eventually destroyed it.
Look to Comstar for the answer to those passing down the information of old. Walterly turned against the clans when she found out they were not going to be her puppets. Sound like the rest of the IS during the fall?
So the one organization that might have had influence on a clan formed SL proved to be just as dishonorable as the houses.
The one sided outlook does not cover the facts. So far, the IS has shown it will not act honorably in anything, even the sneak attack on the home worlds. They accepted the trial as most wanted the Jaguars gone, which happened, yet the IS had enough force to punish any other clan. From their view, the IS being dezgra still remains. This is the way the clans think. Not understanding this will condemn all analysis to being wrong.
Like the view or not, that is how the clans think. The entire 'reason' for the invasion was to punish the IS, and bring order back to their chaos. They rid themselves of most personal freedoms, so that aspect will not be present. In their eyes, those that demand it, are lazy, weak dezgra bandits whining they have to do something other then eat and drink, while in luxury.
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Karagin
06/21/22 08:19 PM
70.118.172.64
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So are we going to get this ALT or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 10:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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No. Having the alt put out means someone can get it and start proving it is full of holes without even adding in the canon version. It will show that even the creator doesn't know what is actually written down, if the posts here have any indication of what is up.
The 4th war shows this. His version says the CC was destroyed. So the entire concept of Sun Tzu becoming First Lord is completely gone. Which changes the entire concept of the civil war.
It is suggested that Victor dies in an assassination attempt, which removed the Civil war, and the whole making a new realm in the deep periphery chasing the clans. Which would have been changed when they were driven out of the IS thru not having warships or the use of nukes by the IS.
St. Ives would not have been reabsorbed back into the CC as it would be removed from history. And given the response of not trusting any family members of a foreign nation, Candice would not take over to run the CC. But then Sun Tzu wouldn't be in position to take it as First Lord anyways.
It is also suggested that Hanse publicly denounces Comstar for their duplicity during the 4th war, as the units that were in the film sacking the HPG, were in fact rotated out just before the invasion began and new units were sent in.
Yet without the alt to prove anything, the implications are all that is left. Something that has been used to try and say other facts are wrong or right.
The statement of the clans losing their worlds and should have been force into the periphery is yet another fact that could be shown as Bovine Excrement.
But in the end, I suspect the author just doesn't want done to the alt, what they are doing to canon.
So instead of showing the 'perfect, only viable solution' to the canon story, we will constantly get bombarded by things that only one person 'knows'. SO it can change as false facts get called out.
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Karagin
06/21/22 11:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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If the CC is gone then that means the FWL is the new threat to the FC on their "southern" border region. And likely the St Ives Compact is a larger client state of Fed-Com.
That would indeed change the political landscape and play havoc with a lot of things within the factional fighting inside the rest of the Fed-Com, it would also have the Taurians on the warpath to the point they would be jumping at everything beyond their normal.
No Sunny doing anything stupid either...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/22/22 04:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated in the books, Hanse stopped the assault on the CC due to the DC being more of a threat, and the FWL would have to take worlds in order to create a buffer against the FS portion of the FC. The Andurian offense would not have happened, as they would have already had the worlds to connect with the MoC if they wanted to.
With this, the war of 3039 would have had to have dealt with both the DC and FWL as both would have realized they had to fight back together. This also makes one wonder if the FWL/DC combo would have launched their own offensive earlier, like during the Skye uprising.
The creation of the revived SL could have been done with the FC, had Hanse wanted to go that route. It would have caused the war all wanted to avoid for a while.
Now a point that was overlooked when suggesting the FC had the power to make it. The voting, which would have to happen to be the reincarnation of the SL, would be towards the FWL/DC power bloc, as it was those two against the 1 vote for the FC. So even with forming it, the FC would LOSE.
The way around this is to remove the voting rights of the other two, which makes the SL under Hanse, that same sort of situation as the clans.
I would like to see what smoke and mirrors comes up with trying to dispute that one.
Then again, maybe not. I still can't get the Whale Excrement out of my system from the last series of excuses.
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Karagin
06/22/22 07:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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IF Hanse wanted an SL back, which I doubt he did, he would have had it as part of the Fed-Com setup or future point, but we never see that offered. I do find it a bit odd that Hanse didn't give the CapCon a good death blow though, but this was the late 80s early 90s and the idea of killing off a House wasn't really a selling point. Though logic and all, never leave a hurt enemy behind stuff, you know basic military common sense. Oh wait..FASA logic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/22/22 08:20 PM
45.51.181.83
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The problem with completely destroying the CC is the fact that some fans loved the nation. Playing the underdog or just loving the back ground feel of it. To have removed it, also meant more limited house play, as the economic might of the FC would eventually over power the other 2 houses.
I believe that is why the 20 year update had nerfed a lot of units out of existence.
But in the novels, it said Hanse did not want to become the first lord. This was especially true when Luthein was about to be attacked. He thought about it and said no.
During his younger days, the story said he did not want the FS throne. It was Ian's, and when he died, Hanse was forced to take it or allow someone outside the normal power lines to take over.
The canon story did say the attack on the CC was to punish Max. He did not want the entire nation, which is part of why he stopped. FWL incursions was making it clear that the FWL would gain a lot from continuing the war.
It does sound a bit off, but I can see the reasoning. I don't agree with all of it, as I said about Capella not being hit. Just shutting down production of the jumpships and dropships made there for a few months to a year, would have gone a long way to keep the CC from messing with the FS/FC for a long while.
The fact that the CC was no longer even close to Terra, would make things much harder for them. Trade with the Combine would have to enter FC space. They could not reach Terra in a single jump to use that to get into DC space.
Also, not being able to fix or maintain their fleets for a while would have a major impact. I would say food shortages, but that aspect has been retconned out.
And with the idea that Hanse wanted the SL title, he would have ignored the CC and hit the DC with everything he could along with the LC. The FWL and CC could have been held in check until the DC was in major peril. But TPTB did not want to run that route. So they made the punishment idea work.
The interdiction didn't help with the decision to stop wiping out the CC either.
I would also think the FWL was not looking forward to butting heads with the FS troops. So instead of absorbing as many worlds of the CC as they could, they pretty much sat back and let the CC go for a while. Had they done what they needed to, the FWL would have hit the FS troops and started holding them in position or even pushing them back. The sit back and watch attitude was done to prevent the FWL from really huring the LC. The infighting is a nice touch there. I could see the regions furhter away from the border not sending troops, as it would mean those that are taking the worlds would gain power at their expense.
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Karagin
06/22/22 09:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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Agreed, the CapCon falling would have changed the game completely and thus caused bigger issues overall, more so than the Clans showing up. Look at the blowback of the Jaguars being taken out the callous comments from pompous self-appointed gatekeepers like Stackpole over folks needing to pick better factions and such. Seems to be a trend among some of TPTB, the pompous self-righteous part, and some of their friends as well, I mean we would not know about any of that around here at all would we, oh wait, yes, yes we would.
Moving on. Yes, massive changes to the game should come over time and not an overnight kind of thing, players/fans should see them coming and know that they will happen, not sprung on them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/22/22 09:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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With the CC being so small, it is confusing that the first war did not destroy everything they had. That is IF the actual story of the nuke fest was used against them. The regions in the LC look to be only a little smaller then the CC is. Even the regions in the FS were looking larger then the CC. So where did they have any real breathing room?
I think that is why the DC was sent to invade the FS. TPTB realized the CC could not take much of a beating and live thru it. The FWL could have done the same, but it was needed to distract the LC from ripping into the DC in the 1st war.
Hell, the TC looked to have been more powerful then the CC after the 2nd war, as they had more facilities to make things like mechs and ships.
I can see some points where major change should come in a quick motion. The 4th war was such a moment, though some things still don't add up right. It shows that the merger of the FS and LC wasn't really thought thru as much as it should have been. Yes, in the future, they would break it up, but the big nerf really shows they didn't quite see what was wrong before doing so. Removing the nerfs from the LCAF by actually removing the social generals, would have made them better then what the game represents in the 3039 war. A regular meeting where all commanders meet face to face. You might as well just had them hang themselves.
Then giving the FS access to large amounts of mechs, vehicles, ships, and even jumpships should have ended at least one state, possible 2 before the clans showed up. Dropping the black box out of existence was the only way to keep Comstar in the picture without them becoming active war participants.
The output of units would far exceed the other three realms, and streamline the forces of both sides.
I liked the merger, but can see it should have ended the game in the future. Now, we got real crap for story lines.
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ghostrider
06/23/22 06:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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One last point that needs to be said.
By saying one alt is the only one that makes sense, is suggesting every other alt is garbage. As most do have some place where you can learn about their alt, this practice is even more embarrassing to them. With no way to even read the author of the one alt, it becomes direct attacks on those that made them.
As asking for the full details of one particular alt, we got told it will never be made public, so no one other then the author knows what is actually there.
Just thought this point needed to be made, as showing the irony of the whole issue. I would assume a few alt authors would like to have people read their alts, without having a bias from the entire history of the arguments from one author.
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Karagin
06/23/22 09:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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That would be great, but clearly, we won't see said alt. Others have shared theirs, we have offered input, good, bad, indifferent, and went from there. Not sure why we can't see this alt, do we know why?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/12/22 12:31 AM
1.124.23.153
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Who here picked up on the fact that the Clans are attempting the same strategy as that of Sefan Amaris?
Lets take over the legitimate ruler of Terra, murder its ruler - execution style, then declare themselves the new First Lord, ruler over the Star League – whist the remainder of the Star League look’s on and laughed at the absurdity of the statement!
Can we all now recognise that history is repeating itself and the players do not even recognise who they are in the story yet to come ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 01:44 AM
45.51.181.83
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You mean that warfare has not changed in thousands of years?
That almost all conquests end up with a dead ruler if the defenders don't win?
This is the very thing that drove the entire succession wars. To kill the enemy leaders and take the title. A few figured out that it wasn't worth it, and stopped trying.
Now who is the rightful leader of Terra?
Comstar constantly changes who is in charge due to a vote in the first circuit. But that is as far as the voting gets since the SLDF left the IS. WOB tried to kill the first circuit when they took over.
Is any of the Cameron descendants in the Clans the rightful rulers? Or for that fact, any Kerensky descendants?
As Kerensky did not even try to take over the SL, it is not likely they could lay claim to it thru historical methods. The Cameron line might, but that is doubtful as well. They would have to challenge for the position from current clan leaders, and that isn't likely to happen.
Stone was leader for a while. Does that mean his family is rightfully the rulers? To my knowledge no such vote was done for that. So unless military operations are done, there can really be no rightful rulers.
But back to the point.
The clans are doing the very thing all forceful changes to leadership has done. Basically kill those in charge, and set up your dynasty.
What other way could there be? It isn't like the entire IS will vote on who would be in charge of a new SL. They didn't when the 2nd one was set up. And when the 4th comes around, they won't have voted for that one.
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Requiem
07/12/22 02:57 AM
1.124.23.102
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Quote:
You mean that warfare has not changed in thousands of years?
No, the correct answer is … “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
Or in this case those who cannot ascertain a new plot development are bound to resurrect past plots.
Quote:
Now who is the rightful leader of Terra?
The correct question is whom did the rest of the Inner Sphere recognise as the caretaker of Terra at the time of the Clan Invasion?
Or are we going to, as an example, end up with the Jerusalem issue as to the right due to historical precedent?
Quote:
Basically kill those in charge and set up your dynasty.
And then they get killed and a new dynasty is established …. And we are now in an endless loop of … kill … new empire to old empire … kill … new empire to old empire … kill ….. etc.
Quote:
It isn't like the entire IS will vote on who would ‘be in charge’ of a new SL.
And it isn’t like the entire IS will recognise this new rump SL as being a legitimate – some Clans may recognise this as “their” SL, however, for the rest they will just consider this as another failed attempt at a poorly written plot development …
The 2nd SL was set up by all the IS states – hence legitimate
The 4th SL (can’t stop laughing) was set up by two clans who thought they could engage in a personal war over Terra – and failed to tell all the Clans this was going to occur. So what would have happened if they had told all the clans and all the IS states at the same time this “grant mele” for Terra was going to start for Terra and all interested parties would be welcomed to fight over the scraps of Terra?
Sorry but this story is just so badly written I can’t stop laughing at the absurdity of it all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 11:42 AM
45.51.181.83
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It is said that all stories come from 7 plots. There isn't much that can be different in a war scenario. You fight, and if the defender loses, then someone will be executed, possibly the entire family of that leader. In more recent years, the tact of trying to just imprison them has been done, and the effects seem to be mixed at best. There is always some that will fight for the leader, no matter what.
Recognize is not really the correct term. For most of the time that the IS stood after the SL fell, Comstar was recognized as the rulers of Terra, not one person. Had they had a choice, more then a few put in power of Comstar would have been kicked out immediately. Which thinking about it, Comstar would never really have a ruler, as someone would oppose the leader selected. Also, they were not overlord of Comstar. They were more like someone who dealt with the majority vote over the others in the first circuit.
So the reality of war finally emerges? There is always someone ready to kill in order to rule. And with the military option, death of the rulers is almost always done. Greed for power will keep this cycle going. It is a fact in humankinds history.
There will always be people that do not recognize those in power as their leaders. As stated before, anyone can claim they rule the SL. If others follow, then it becomes more solid. The only way to stop this is the destroy those claiming it. Hence the cycle of war continues. Must destroy the old warlord in order to become the warlord. What can be different here?
Why is the 2nd one legit? Because the IS leaders agreed to it? The periphery had no say in it. And it fell as someone pulled out of it. If you really look at it, the 2nd SL wasn't legit, as the representative from the FWL wasn't the real leader of the FWL. So 1 vote was fraudulent to begin with.
The grand melee was fought once already. It was called the succession wars. How did that turn out?
Maybe having the leaders of each realm come in and fight each other for the title might be a good thing. Granted good fighting skills on the field doesn't equal good governing skills over all, but it does help the others know they did what they could.
It would also limit the amount of dead and the damage done fighting for it.
And yes, luck will play a part. An errant shot will change a fight like a head shot taking out the better warrior. Sad thing is, the better warrior is not always the best choice. But then that is what ministers and such are for. Doing the jobs the leader can't.
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Karagin
07/12/22 04:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The 2nd wasn't legit because it was used to wage war on its own member states, to solve the same petty House issues. That alone invalidated it from the start.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/12/22 07:46 PM
1.124.20.197
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Quote:
You fight, and if the defender loses, then someone will be executed, possibly the entire family of that leader.
And I have tried to explain many times in the past this is a war crime!
I am not surprised many consider that this should be included (kill everyone mentality) – though if you want this type of anarchy in war, may I suggest you jump ship and go to Warhammer 40K – there must be a point, however, where in the BattleTech Universe the idea that every world and every unit is no longer trapped in a Mad Max scenario – guess what the majority of worlds are and have been within rule of law, most units accept human rights and the rights of people in war – even though their rulers did not sign the rules of war 2.0 – it has been shown time and again unit commanders protected civilians …
It is time to face the fact that for the betterment of the Battletech universe this type of anarchy should be removed!
Quote:
Comstar was recognized as the rulers of Terra
And did the top person of ComStar did they have absolute control, and thus by extension have total control over Terra?
Just remember the signing of FS and LC Union on Terra and how it was shown that the ruler had absolute control! Or how about when the Clans arrived and one person said they would collaborate with them….
Quote:
There is always someone ready to kill in order to rule.
And these are he type of people that should never be allowed to rule!
Allowing greed for power just demonstrates how empty the citizenry of the IS are – time and again rulers emerge not with a gun but with peace and it is these that should be shown with true power – Lyran and Fed Suns circa 3025 … these are the true rulers!
Not the Clans of any age and any leader!
This is the ‘true-fact’ for humanities history!
Quote:
The only way to stop this is the destroy those claiming it.
If they do not have the power to act as terrorists with heavy weapons the military can ignore them and leave them to the local constabulary, just like every other failed fringe group.
Also the old warlord is often killed off by their own people or by their own hand when they realise they have lost. You don’t have to kill off the old warlord!
Quote:
The grand melee was fought once already. It was called the succession wars. How did that turn out?
Comprehension of what was written. Please re-read.
Quote:
The 2nd wasn't legit because it was used to wage war on its own member states
The 2nd was used to wage war upon the enemy by forming one SLDF – which it was formed to fight - and that alone validated it from the start …
The sad fact is that TPTB didn’t understand that with such an agreement the lawyers of every member state would have been involved in its creation making the ability to wage war on its members illegal and impossible!
Again a very poor and pathetic plot development within an insipid story line!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 09:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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This very thing happens even today.
The problem is who is willing to even begin to prosecute these. The only time they are, is if there is enough nations willing to stand up and actually deal with it. I hate it.
When done in the medieval days, few cared enough to go to war to do anything about it. So it was ignored.
And this is ignoring when family members wipe out other family members to take control.
I figure you will try the WWII courts, but even now, some live without fear of prosecution as they live in countries that will not extradite those accused. This is true for even more recent crimes.
You praise Warhammer, yet berate Battletech for not being realistic? I would suggest rethinking what was posted. The game has avoided running thru the succession wars were there was nothing but kill the enemy or be killed. It has scaled back to allowing the enemy to retreat, least you get hit while chasing them. Single world conflicts don't end a war when you have thousands of others that you can hit or be hit from.
Also, the war is not constantly fought on one world. It is years and even decades before the same world has a full invasion on it. Raids are a different story, as hitting the enemy's ability to make war is fundimental to all wars.
Comstar was never voted to become the overlords of Terra. It was shoved down their throats when Blake was appointed as the SL failed. What does this say about the control they had? Since then, Comstar has been a dictator over the population, as anything that upsets them, tends to end with seizures and executions. Most don't get a trial as ROM tends to perform it.
The entire history of the IS runs on greedy people willing to kill for power. Katherine is a prime example of this. Sugar coat it all you want, the entire lust for the First Lord position has always been set up that those that kill all, would rule the rest.
And how do you stop someone from taking positions of power when they kill all that oppose them? Amaris did that very thing to the first family, and look what happened. The suggestion that Kerensky was the bad guy for removing him came down as a bad suggestion. If Kerensky would have assumed the throne, then the entire SL story would have been far different. Better or worse, I don't know. There are too many variables to deal with.
You don’t have to kill off the old warlord!
What world have you been living on? When you don't kill off the old warlord, then they find their allies, even ex enemies that don't like the new warlord and strike back at the new one. The old government resists and forments even more violence against the winning rulers. This is especially true when the old warlord was heir to a throne. I would like it to be otherwise, but it isn't like new warlords are always better then old ones. Part of why voting for a change is the only real was to try and avoid violence while changing a ruler. And even then it doesn't always happen.
The comprehension is there. A massed amount of combatants fought over the single prize of ruling. The nations involved were not always on the same side as others in their nations. Some involved were ready to kill the winner, so they could take power. A few tried to revolt and got destroyed. How is this not a grand melee?
Wait. So if the clans say they formed the SL, then it is illegal, but if the IS forms one it is? How does that happen?
For it to be legal, all involved have to agree to it. I didn't hear the periphery realms say they agreed to it. The clans, being closer to the original SLDF then most in the IS didn't agree, unless one of their own was in charge. The clans have always said they were the SLDF in exile. The IS has never had a claim as strong.
Being illegal and still having it done isn't that impossible. How are you going to prosecute the First Lord that YOU elected when they attack a specific target? The best you might come up with is a consensous of them doing something illegal, but what can you actually do to punish them? Vote them out is about it, and even then, politics will stop most of it. Who will succeed the person? How do you punish them without punishing the people the represent? All things that would have been done before the SL became a reality, yet this would have taken years, if not decades. Something the IS didn't have when they formed the 2nd SL.
During the 4th war, the FC, or the FWL/DC/CC could have used the SL name and it would have been the same in legality.
It was rushed into existence and fell because of the rush.
The SL is dead and needs to remain dead. A new name needs to be done, in order to stop the past taint from destroying a new grand experiment. Don't ask what the name should be, as I really don't know. I do know the Star League will not stand for long.
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ghostrider
07/12/22 09:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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As a side note, this is a war game. If everyone is part of the same organization, then who do you fight?
You do shadow wars? Revolt and rebel against each other and the primary nation?
Do you try and add in some other entity that will destroy the prime nation?
The clans would not last against a united IS. Though united wouldn't be for long as each ruler would destroy the SL for the sake of their own power. Soon all would be back to the succession wars, with the last ruler having a small advantage. Using SL assets to dig into 'enemy' nations secrets to know where to strike the first blows.
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Karagin
07/12/22 09:50 PM
70.118.172.64
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Warhammer is not even close to realistic. Warhammer is more fantasy in space than anything else. It is not even science fiction. And we are back to the same from you. Your take is the only thing going. The game is not perfect, we all know this. We each have parts of it we don't care for, but none of us can change it.
The Clans are not going to fail unless the PTB want them to fail, either this new Star League under Alric will work or it will be a carbon copy of the original with more killing and war, but with different names on who is doing the fighting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/13/22 06:34 AM
1.124.20.72
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The problem is who is willing to even begin to prosecute these.
First, every professional military maintains their own military police / Judicial system. – Same as in Battletech
Second, Currently, there is a world court to prosecute said crimes – if you a mercenary there certainly is …
Third, there is the court of public opinion to which many governments will chastise the offending government. – yes Great Houses would relish publicising the evils of other great houses and would be more than willing to restrict export / import of goods.
Also the Battletech era is not the same as that of the medieval era.
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extradite those accused
Yes, just as USA will not allow their soldiers to be extradited. Still will not fix the issue of world media condemning them.
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You praise Warhammer, yet berate Battletech for not being realistic?
Again reading comprehension … Warhammer is anarchy on steroids.
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the succession wars were there was nothing but kill the enemy or be killed.
Why have a Battlemech force when first strike was nuclear only?
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Comstar was never voted to become the overlords of Terra.
Suggest re-reading the history of Comstar
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar
Blake was able to secure the support of the House Lords with the signing of the Communications Protocol of 2787. Then in 2788, Blake took control of Terra
They didn’t vote they signed away Terra to Comstar ….
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Since then, Comstar has been a dictator over the population, as anything that upsets them, tends to end with seizures and executions. Most don't get a trial as ROM tends to perform it.
Where is this written – especially when they are trying to demonstrate themselves as a benevolent religion?
Their image would be shot if they attempted this to the wider houses and their citizens.
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The entire history of the IS runs on greedy people willing to kill for power.
Sorry but this is not an absolute …
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Katherine is a prime example of this.
Sorry but Machiavelli has points that dispute this! also why does a vast percentage of the Lyran people love her?
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Sugar coat it all you want, the entire lust for the First Lord position has always been set up that those that kill all, would rule the rest.
And as for Archon Katrina Steiner ….
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The suggestion that Kerensky was the bad guy for removing him came down as a bad suggestion.
Then why did he order the death of Amaris family – civilians – women and children to be executed by firing squad at the same time?
Sorry, but he too is a war criminal!
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You don’t have to kill off the old warlord! What world have you been living on?
Comprehension of the written word … again.
“the old warlord is often killed off by their own people or by their own hand.”
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How is this not a grand melee?
By Clan standards how is it? Only two involved?
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So if the clans say they formed the SL, then it is illegal, but if the IS forms one it is?
Correct. Refer above.
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If everyone is part of the same organization, then who do you fight?
Factional infighting – civil war.
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none of us can change it.
This is why you create your own history for yourself and your friends.
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The Clans are not going to fail unless the PTB want them to fail
And in so doing they will drive the franchise into the ground as less will invest in products due to a very bad scenario.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/22 11:58 AM
45.51.181.83
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Is that why more then a few governments have been accused of war crimes, yet the leaders are still ruling to this day? Because other countries have stepped up and demanded those leaders pay for their crimes?
The other nations will not start a war in order to punish those that have done so. And there are other nations that are supporting those that have committed the war crimes.
How would the FS or even the FWL punish the DC for war crimes? Units that committed it were praised by the offending nation. This is based on real world facts. It does portrait those people of such nations in a bad light, as most governments have had their issues. Most have punished their own.
As for the military punishing their own, just like all crimes, that doesn't always happen.
Ground military is required to clean up, and hit worlds that were too valuable to just nuke outright. Also, nukes were not always used to destroy the entire world. Military facilities were the main target, with other targets of importance hit as well. Some worlds were glowing afterwards, but not all.
When invading from the sea, do nations bombard the shore defenses before sending in the ground troop? The question you asked would be like asking why send in the ground troops after you blasted the beaches with the naval, and air bombardments.
And those living on Terra didn't have a vote. So it was just another dictator put into power. The world government changed without any say of the population. And the 'religion' was changed as well.
With a planetary ruler, you can do things like have gas leaks that kill areas, as large as cities, and get away with it. ROM would definitely remove those that screamed the most, and with this, I don't think Comstar allows Terra freedom of press. Everything is state run media. Otherwise, there would be rebellions on Terra from their treatment.
How do you think they keep their secrets from the rest of the IS?
Not every leader was kill everything that isn't us. That is true. But the only time the wars paused, seemed to be when a group that wasn't so blood thirsty rose to power at the same time, or ran out of machines to continue for a while. But for taking the title of First Lord, the kill all was the main warfare mind until the 3rd war. Basically, they needed what was left, so had to cut back on how many were killed at one time.
Katherine was someone that did kill anyone for power. Making sure the truth was never revealed was why people backed her. She conned them with lies, and stabbed them when they weren't looking. Not sure that the vast majority were on her side, as there were no real rebellions against Victor when the civil war raged. It only takes a vocal minority to sound like a vast majority in the news.
Hanse and Katrina were a bit different. Katrina was not one for wanting the throne, as she gave that option away to Hanse with the merger. Only one of the two could become First Lord. It may well be that both realized it would not happen in their life time, but maybe the children of the merger would. And they were not kill all people. Part of why the lull was happening. It is a bit odd that the 4th war was so short, but with the CC being cut badly, I could see the others not wanting to fight being caught off guard. The other wars were not the huge wars like before.
The military can order the deaths of a mass murdering criminal like Amaris was. The family can well be designated to be executed as well. As regeant of the SL, it was well within Kerensky's right to do so as well. Honestly, it may well have been ordered to avoid the soldiers being prosecuted for doing so without orders. Execution of an entire family that has committed the crime of killing a ruling house almost entirely has been pretty standard through out time.
Not sure where only two are invoked in the succession wars. If your talking about the World wars, there were multiple of nations involved in those wars. For the succession wars, there were 5 main combatants with multiple entities being involved. Even the periphery states were involved in them as well. Maybe not active participants, but worlds fought on.
Unless you think a grand melee is only two combatants, which means you don't understand the rules behind it. That is multiple warriors put in an arena and all fight until only one survives.
Not sure if you understand the issue of one can claim it while another can't. The clans were the SL in exile. They were still that when they invaded. They had history on their side, so their claim to the SL mantle is much stronger with legalities then the IS.
What is the difference between a civil war and multiple nations fighting for the same thing? In the end, only the greed for power prevails.
Oh wait. A civil war means anyone that losses is charge with war crimes. And normally executed.
There is a difference between making your own history, and trying to suggest it is the only one that everyone needs to follow. Something that hasn't seemed to sink in. So avoid that suggestion and this will be a more civil discussion.
The suggestion the game will fail because the developers follow the same logic that wars do isn't the case. Having stupid things like destroying their own rules to make the next big threat is. You can have the same wars fought over and over and over, with different outcomes and such, but having spears and club fight suddenly bring in a Star Destroyer is where the problems come from.
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Karagin
07/13/22 08:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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So we are back to him wanting his own game, that is what all of this boils down to.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/13/22 08:38 PM
1.124.30.43
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governments have been accused of war crimes, yet the leaders are still ruling
1st Politics or more accurately politicians get in the way as the majority are too afraid of actually stepping up to the plate and doing what is right and proper – as certain countries can only be dragged kicking and screaming to do the right thing … as they are more interested in their own political agenda than that of protecting the world.
That said, however, there are a few that will stand up – Margie Thatcher ….
However, the majority of the current crop of politicians have to date failed the Santayana test.
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the military punishing their own
Dependent upon –
How liberal their government is – democratic to authoritarian.
How free the media is at reporting the facts.
And if the military can hush it up to preserve their own image.
If they do get caught on media – someone will need to go to the stockade to preserve the ‘honour’ of the military.
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Ground military is required to clean up, and hit worlds that were too valuable to just nuke outright.
Even during the 1st Succession War? Where the plan was to nuke them until they glow in the dark.
So why send in the troops if you have just killed off the world entirely – as occurred during the Jihad era for example?
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And those living on Terra didn't have a vote.
Again … where is this written?
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But for taking the title of First Lord, the kill all was the main warfare mind until the 3rd war.
This is why the 3025 era is superior to all others – as from 3039 onwards the game just lost he plot entirely.
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Katherine was someone that did kill anyone for power.
Again, read Machiavelli the Prince (as well as the Borgia’s during the Renaissance) – this demonstrates that Katherine was acting correctly.
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as she gave that option away to Hanse with the merger.
Again historically this did not occur – the first real FC leader was Melissa upon Hanse’s death … prior to this leadership was Melissa Lyran Hanse Suns …
And as for the CC their realm should have ceased to exist 3039 onwards …
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The military can order the deaths of a mass murdering criminal like Amaris was.
Only after a trial and only for him and his cronies … executing without a trial and including his family at the same time (civilian – women and children) is a WAR CRIME!
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only two are invoked
The war to become il Clan …. One of the most preposterous and ridiculous situation ever conceived in the Battletech universe – probably second only to the Jihad Era.
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The clans were the SL in exile
After half an hour of laughing …. I am now able to make a reply …
The Wolverines were the last … as for the remainder they are in no way Star League – they are Amaris’ through and through -by word and deed.
They have absolutely no idea whatsoever as to what it means to be SLDF – even when confronted with the truth on Terra they would just hide (Destroy) the evidence as to their fall from grace.
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What is the difference between a civil war and multiple nations fighting for the same thing? In the end, only the greed for power prevails.
What and who are you fighting for?
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A civil war means anyone that losses is charge with war crimes. And normally executed.
Just as in the American Civil War ?
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Something that hasn't seemed to sink in.
And who is it that is pushing the idea that there is only one that everyone needs to follow? For it is not me.
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having spears and club fight suddenly bring in a Star Destroyer is where the problems come from.
i.e. inept writing
This is a science fiction setting in deep space – hence there must be a navy – and by extension they must be the king of the battlefield! What this just demonstrates is a lcak of planning.
i.e. during 3039 to 3050 the IS are able to revive building warships thus by the time of the clan invasion Naval battles can once more commence.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/22 09:42 PM
45.51.181.83
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Even during the 1st war, some worlds were spared a full glow in the dark treatment. Normally those worlds that the military was really weak, and the attackers needed a staging area/depot. As is standard problems, logistics are needed. Not many worlds would be spared in a rush to destroy the defending forces, but as you got a little deeper into the enemy territory, the defenders thinned out some.
The fact that Kerensky appointed Blake as coms director, and he declared Terra neutral, when did they have a vote to see if that was going to work for the people of Terra? It was just ordered, and that was it.
The game lost parts of a good plot earlier then that. It just got to a point after the FC merger, that there wasn't much that could be done to get the game back to a more normal state, until the civil war. The mega state was just too powerful for the FWL/DC to do much, and the CC was out of it until they got the MoC and TC working with them. Even that wasn't enough. This is not saying that things couldn't have gone better, as they very much could have. The Jihad was the point that really caused issues. Everything afterwards was made that much worse from the Jihad garbage.
Hell, even the original SL has issues that retcons made even worse.
The out of resources for the entire SL verses how WOB was able to do even more with fewer worlds, and even less resources comes to mind.
That is bovine excrement. Acting correctly by killing any in her way to power, is never acceptable. Sugar coat it all you can, it is still excrement.
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ghostrider
07/13/22 09:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny how you said that Melissa was not the leader of the FC at one point. The throne for the FC was Victors, as Melissa was only reagent of the FS portion. Now she was in charge of the whole thing as the full ruler? But it isn't an issue with this. Katrina gave up the right for her to claim first lord of the SL.
It is historical that Japan, China and a few others nearly, and I say nearly, always killed the families of those that lost a large political battle. This is also very true with dicstatorships. The main time it didn't happen is when family where the ones that took power over the others. Then only parts of the family were put to death.
The entire clans were set to retake the SL for their entire history. Why is that such a problem? They actually had all the clans still around at the time fight for a position to do so, with a poor assumption the IS wouldn't be that much of a problem. Arrogance makes people do stupid things. This is actually a decent idea. Some things are a little weak, but workable. Could have been better, but that would mean the IS wouldn't have been in as good of shape as it was when they went to war.
So now you see the whole issue of 'I am right, no matter what anyone else says' when it comes to history and the future. My way is the only way. Most entities change over time. And give what was suggested about the SL and the leadership before it fell, why would you want that back?
Doesn't matter who is fighting, but the prize is ultimate power over every one else. Greed is all there is.
The Helm core was a big help in looking to rebuild the fleets, but it wasn't the only solution. The pocket warships should have been done before the huge warships, as the weapons required for the large ships had to be built and tested. Planetary defenses being a huge issue that was missed.
Naval weapons would not have been as lost as one would think. Many SL bases were found that would have had examples of working weapons when the SLDF just up and left them all. Even future discoveries never looked into this concept.
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Karagin
07/13/22 11:11 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think we have had this conversation before. Yes, in fact, we have. Melissa was the ruler of the FedCom but not the full sovereign, she mentioned something about that at some point or it's mentioned to Victor, as a wake-up call to get him to act like an adult.
That means Katherine was NEVER going to rule anything unless one of two things happen, mommy dies and Victor gets the blame and thus is forced off the throne or a civil war happens over mommy's death and she steps in to save the day. We have covered this topic to death in other threads. Requiem knows this and once again we are back his pet ALT because he can't accept that his fan fiction, that he won't share with us, is NOT CANON.
All the Houses rule through fear, none of the leaders are voted for by the common folk, none are really amazing or wonderful, and at best the lesser of the evils compared two the nutcases across the border. Most of the planets in the Clan OZs would not be quick to jump back into the hands of the Houses because they would NOT know that life, not after 100 years of Clan control. Yet, that's what the PTB has us believing is happening but is it? Oh wait, is this disagreement with the new storyline? Why yes it is and did I expect the PTB to do better this time out and not repeat the same mistakes of the last storyline, well I had hoped but I didn't count on it and so far I have not been disappointed with how they have gone right back to the old storyline, single lances or battalions taking whole worlds, or planets jumping ownership and no issues beyond a line or two about minor unrest, set type move on to the next thing. Will my pointing this out here or on CBT or any of the FB groups or pages change anything? Nope, because it's already been made crystal clear, TPTBs have their story set in stone and they aren't going to change things for the fans. Hell, they couldn't even handle the KS buy a canon character thing without it overwhelming them.
But moving back on topic, the reborn Star League wasn't going to last, Katherine was a power hunger female dog, and she wanted power at all cost. She didn't care about who died, as long as her pretty behind was on one or both thrones of the Fed-Suns or Lyran-Com then she would be happy and death to all who got in her way.
She had her own brother's wife Omni killed, just like her mother, she went after her other siblings and while she didn't kill them, she tried for a few, she did play them off against each other and Victor. So, the bottom line she was evil. If Requiem would read the canon books and the sourcebooks, he would find that was never hidden and was actually part of the storyline starting with Natural Selection and going forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 01:08 AM
45.51.181.83
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I really believe that is part of why the 20 year update lost so many units. The expansion of the houses were starting to make the game where you couldn't run a new unit with say a lance of mechs and make a huge difference. It was getting so that even a battalion would not make much of a difference. Well not with the players being a merc unit by itself.
I am going to try to avoid much of this, but the fact that the comprehensive reading and reading between the lines seems to be the reason why the logic of the civil war storyline fail to show Katherine was a killer pure and simple. Trying to distract the fact by bringing up the smoke and mirrors saying it was something akin to destiny, will not stop..
Now, trying to have a civil conversation is difficult enough. The fact that one character in the past did the same thing, and was stated as being a war criminal, yet a favored character doing the same thing is not a war criminal is an issue.
As I did not say this in the other posts, I have not said my views were the only things that can be done. I have shown what reality has done, and tried to counter the illogical outcomes of situations that mirror realities past. All players games differ from canon, though most don't have a major failing with the canon story. A few, like one game we had going, was changed because of the civil war. The merc group was like a few, where we did take a world in the 4th war in the CC's old area, and was granted rulership of it. The failure of Katherine to defend the worlds given to her mother, meant we lost the world and all the work we had sponsored for it. It bites, but it did create a situation the GM used to force us to fight to get it back.
Does this mean our alt is required for others? Not even close. Another group didn't have any issues, as they were given some land further inside the FS portion.
I hate the fact that the IS didn't adopt the clan tech. I can see why, as it created a problem were the larger numbers of units were needed to guard worlds, as you could kill defenders that much quicker. But they kept the clanners with it, so it still produces the same issue, only on a smaller scale.
A normal ppc was horrible when it hit a light mech, but the Clan ERPPC was even worse. A clan ERPPC on a Panther was death to a lot of lighter units, especially when taking out a leg in one hit.
But with the clan fight on Terra, that was the whole point of the invasion. To restart the SL in the clans image. Doesn't have to be the same thing that was originally there. That is the beauty of being the victor. You get to make the rules of a nation.
The RoTS story line cut down numbers to allow the same thing. A small unit could take worlds and hold them, so you didn't have to resort to nukes or huge battles to take or hold lands. Sounds like a pattern forming?
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Karagin
07/14/22 09:11 AM
70.118.172.64
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It is a pattern, they want small battles, not huge ones, but even still a planet is a big place Just because you control four out of eight continents doesn't mean you have full control if all you have is a single company of mechs and a battalion of infantry to hold things. But in Battletech, the logic of the thinking says nope you do. The whole ROTS thing was two-fold, they had to bring in the Clicky Tech crap in a manner to make so those of us who didn't want it embraced it, and two they had to bring in it because they had no choice. They were stuck with the piss poor storyline of the Clicky Tech setting and so instead of a rewrite, they modified it and tried to shoehorn it into the game. Surrender your mechs and we will have peace, right okay sure, not happening should have been the logical comeback and results. However, instead, we get an entire decade-plus of real-time where this storyline runs and we see some of the worse writing as far fiction goes but hey smaller battles, fewer issues for the tabletop, and look we got a couple of fo cool computer games out of the deal right? So that FPS thing is there, so that is good for the tabletop right? Wrong, because now we have players who can't understand that what works in the video game won't work on the tabletop because the rules are different.
Sounds very similar to the pattern when the MechWarrior computer games came out in the early late 90s early 00s. Now if with higher tech and all that having a company or bigger to attack and hold a world only means you need to step up the writing ability to tell a story. You break the fighting down to the skirmish level, which would be no different than the original company scenario books like we had for the Hounds or the Black Widows, how hard could that be for TPTB to use a proven format that actually worked and they don't have to reinvent the wheel?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/14/22 09:16 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans under Alaric have the chance to do something different with their version of the SL, I doubt they will since the kid can't even see that his misunderstanding of things has already cost him. He stripped the Empire to go attack Terra, not a smart move. He claims the Dragoons broke with the Clans, yet they were cleared of all that back when Natasha went back, but hey revision of history seems to be the norm in the game of late, kind of like wanting fan fiction to be canon. Now, he might have been playing off his parents' hate of the Dragoons, but hey that's a pretty hard sell when you look at his supposed military prowess.
We haven't seen this new ilClan go "a-vikining" yet, so time will tell what they do in the name of the new SL or what it gets called.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/14/22 09:34 AM
1.124.24.87
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It was just ordered, and that was it.
Sorry but at no time were they provided the deed to Terra – ComStar was only provided with communications Dept – in 2788 Blake took control of Terra utilizing former SLDF personnel, when de declared the world neutral …
And that was it.
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It just got to a point after the FC merger, that there wasn't much that could be done to get the game back to a more normal state
Really, then someone was not contemplating the possibilities … too powerful, what a joke, as your border increases so too must the number of units required – otherwise your defence strategy becomes porous ….
Then there are other situations to be considered …
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and the CC was out of it until they got the MoC and TC working with them.
The Trinity Alliance was 3058 to 3067… at the early stage Moc and DoA formed the partnership …
However, for me rather than the jihad was the point that really caused issues – it was the war of 3039 – the idea of attacking the DC when the CC was on the ropes makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Though I agree the jihad is an absolute garbage fest of an era – with only the WoB toys making any sense – which should have been improved upon and disseminated throughout the IS thus by 3150 the advancements in tech throughout the game should have been a quantum leap above the dribble that was provided.
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The entire clans were set to retake the SL for their entire history. Why is that such a problem?
The idea itself is not a problem – the way it was executed and the mannerisms of Clans themselves is the problem…
This is my opinion – you do not have to take it a gospel – all I ask is keeping an open mind.
With the arrival of Wolf’s Dragoons there must be a second group sent to colonize a vast area of space just beyond the periphery to form the Logistical hub from which the Clans invade the IS – rather than attacking Huntress it should have been this area that Victor should have conquered – he should never have been allowed to find he home worlds of the Clans!
From this point we can have a second Clan Invasion rather than the imbecilic idea of the jihad.
Also the idea of the Clans themselves their sociology etc is completely and utterly in error (in my opinion). What TPTB created is so akin to the Nazis that they should never have gone there – and the idea of stripping people of their last name, the forced work, and placing people into a stratified society based upon DNA is an evil dozen or so steps too far.
Again in my opinion if you want to retain the link with the SLDF nobility – then there is but one solution (again in my opinion) Templars and Hospitallers and rather than creating a DNA elite class – parents are able to have dozens of children – making the family unit the centre of a utopian esq society.
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Doesn't matter who is fighting, but the prize is ultimate power over every one else. Greed is all there is.
Except for when you have a holy war attempting to save humanity and not based upon greed and power – one built upon bringing the light of education, reason and the preservation of all ecologies – to remove hunger as well as the idea of poverty.
This is the SLDF I would have hoped they would have envisioned and not the insipid one they came up with.
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The Helm core
Was never taken far enough – by 3050 the IS should have warships as well as a first generation of Omni Tech weapons, as well as first generation power armour.
The IS should have been prepared properly for the coming of the “Clans”! just as directed by the Khan of Clan Wolf – however never undertaken by Wolf’s Dragoons.
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That means Katherine was NEVER going to rule anything unless one of two things happen, mommy dies and Victor gets the blame
If you read the original transcript you will see mommy and victor were to die at the same time – the idea that they were to be killed of separately is in error.
Someone really dropped the ball here!
The assassin should never have killed mommy on her own!
And yes I am not a Canon absolutist and I take pride in that point!
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All the Houses rule through fear
Can I laugh now? Lyrans, suns and Leagues do not rule through fear – only Dracs and Combine do.
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none of the leaders are voted for by the common folk
Suggest you go back and look at world stats – especially were it states many worlds have presidents elected by the people to lease with the nobility of that world.
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Most of the planets in the Clan OZs would not be quick to jump back into the hands of the Houses because they would NOT know that life, not after 100 years of Clan control.
And the reverse is also true – the IS worlds and their people would never accept clan way of life so readily described in the novels. What we have here is partisan war for decades – IEDs / assassinations etc the whole gambit … and yet this was completely ignored.
What we have here is a complete and utter lack of understanding (in my opinion)!
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TPTBs have their story set in stone
And this is why I advocate that everyone should be allowed to choose for themselves – create your own IS history or go along with Canon – people should be allowed to choose for themselves where they want there is to go.
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Katherine was a power hunger female dog, and she wanted power at all cost. She didn't care about who died, as long as her pretty behind was on one or both thrones of the Fed-Suns or Lyran-Com then she would be happy and death to all who got in her way.
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Katherine was a killer pure and simple.
Sorry, but for me (and in my opinion) this shows a lack of understanding her at all.
Suggest you research Lucrezia Borgia, Margi Thatcher as a starting point then read Machiavelli’s The Prince.
It is quite clear she is doing exactly what she should to remain in control to preserve the nation given the times – she is the only person who has the intelligence to preserve the FC and destroy the Clan threat with the exception of Kurita’s.
Lets be honest – Victor is the most incompetent leader of a state given the threat of the Clan invasion – he has absolutely no right to go swanning about with his unit and be expected to rule at the same time – he is a danger to the state and as such must be put down as the incompetent wase of space he is! (again in my opinion!)
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She had her own brother's wife Omni killed
1st Problem … Victor never married Omika as neither realm could have survived the shock!
2nd Problem … As a citizen of the IS there is absolutely no way your character would know, with absolute certainty, that Katherine had undertaken any such activities – all your character is doing is buying into the ‘cool-ade’ of Victor’s propaganda machine.
Even after he arrested her he NEVER provided any evidence as to her wrong doing.
Thus the case, as demonstrated by the quote, can only be based upon propaganda – as there is no factual evidence!
This hatred can only be derived through reading the Novels – a point any character of the IS is unable to do as they are not omni-powerful.
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the game where you couldn't run a new unit with say a lance of mechs and make a huge difference.
Beg to differ – when you compare the total number of worlds to the total number of units.
Plus given that many governments would like plausible deniability as to certain raids there will always be a niche for a merc unit.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 11:28 AM
45.51.181.83
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Having ownership of a world, and actual full control is not the same thing. The concept of one nation controlling the cities, and another controlling the wilds comes to mind here. Something else that needs some thought is puppet governments. The people of a world could very much be against the current rulers, but can't do much other then freedom fighter/terrorist attacks on that government. So on paper, you own it, but in reality, you are fighting a large rebellion.
The game loves to make it look like you own the capital, you own the world.
Then who runs Terra? Who is in charge of the government? Comstar was until WOB took it from them. There was no choice at all.
The question is, did the border increase or actually shrink? As the tips of the CC and FWL near Terra were cut at the time, it just moved part of the border. Both realms got better coordination for their troops, reducing the amount of overlap in units required to guard specific areas. The large increase in troops in the form of the FC named troops was a shock considering the 'lack of spares' concept projected before the 4th war.
Too big is a problem. There are points in size that require even more things then two realms that are smaller. Much like a corporation. Each section requires it's own branch to cover it. New York has their own branch, while Los Angeles requires it's own. Then you acquire some property in London. This means even more, not only for local issues, but to get all three locations on the same page. More being spent to just run things then what is coming in.
Tactically, the DC attack was correct. The CC was hurt, but basically being used as a buffer state. Much like countries in the world today. Those buffer states are used to absorb attacks that might otherwise severely damage other nations. So to hit say Italy from France, you either go into the sea, or have to chew thru several countries to get to them. Yes, it is very possible the nations between the two will support or allow France to move thru them without an issue, but we kow this is not the case in the game and the CC. The FWL should well have used the 3039 war to remove the CC, as they would need to set up a real buffer zone. One they controlled, not left to the Liao's.
Hurting the DC badly enough would have ended resistance to the FC. It would have put the DC on the back foot, reducing their ability to cause issues.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 11:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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Saying the clans can't create a legal SL because you don't like them is your choice. It does not change the fact that they can still do it. There is portions of the clan ways that are less the stellar. I do consider their ways better then the CC and DC ways of doing things. Even some things in the FC are inferior to them. Does that mean the others are unfit to be in the game? No. They all give players an enemy they can actively fight and try to beat the 'bad guys'.
As the same issues crop up in the FS/LC/FC/FWL where someone in power decides they don't like you and make your life a living hell, it shows the same issues of life. It does not have to be from the main leaders either. A local noble can suffice.
A point that needs to be made. The clan homeworlds was not found by Victor. The information gained was used by him, but he did not authorize Comstar to find it. And the fact that the Dragoons knew where the coordinates were, means it really wasn't 'lost'.
The clan society was actually done up as a martial society that went wrong. It was a decent set up after it was learned thru their civil war, that the IS loyalties would never cease. So by giving them all new loyalties to cling to, it removed that aspect, allowing military honor to take over. The fact that those in power decided to take all the power shows a very human nature of people wanting to be in absolute power. They choose to use a method of becoming the new 'First Lord/Ilkhan" thru less destructive ways to the civilians. It created it's own issues.
For those stuck being the common folk, it bites, especially when those in charge decide to lash out at them.
But in this case, it gives you something to want to take the fight to, and remove them.
Much like having rulers of the IS realm become psychotic killers.
Otherwise, you are stuck with civil wars, that would never allow any sort of cooperation among friends. Wait a generation or two and the next civil war comes up, in a war game.
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Karagin
07/14/22 12:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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We can all say group A sucks, doesn't mean they suck, it means we don't like group A. I stand by what I have said in the past and will say again IF the PTB gave a damn about what the fans of the game thought about things or truly wanted, they would have listened when the backlash hit with the whole Jihad storyline unfolding and adjusted things. They didn't give a damn and they didn't listen. In fact, the time period has been used by many to show how to piss poorly an IP can be run into the ground and still blame the fandom for being the reasons. Almost as bad as the current Star Wars IP holders are doing.
All of us here are not happy with parts of the game, yet the majority of us either ignore those things and play on or we just play on. A small group come up with their own "universes" which is cool, I have my own for my group, but we know they aren't canon and we know that our ideas are going to be excepted by other fans.
The Wolf Clan controls Terra. That is a fact, they are ilClan. That is a fact. Alaric already said he is bringing back HIS version of the Star League, so that too is a fact, Can he do that? Yes, he can. Will it be different from the other versions? Nope, most likely not, but that is up TO THE POWERS THAT BE, that would be writers and Line Developers. Not us the fans, again they don't care what we want or say or support. They want our money and that is it. The only time they will care what we say or do is if or when we as a group stop buying the books, miniatures, computer games, etc...aka voting with the wallet and too many of you won't do that because that means taking a true stand.
So Requiem, you are at an impasse of sorts, you keep harping about your ALT, we have asked you to put up or shut up, you have refused to give us the ALT, but you continue to tell us how your personal version is best, so how about following my idea above, and stop supporting the game then since it's not following your take or ideas? Then you can publish your own game/universe setting, Amazon will support indie writers and their stuff, so then we can see how much better your giant stompy robot game is. How about it?
Also, before you go off, I too, have come to see that my own fan fiction isn't going to save Battletech, so I have started to turn it more to my own ideas and whatnot. Mainly because others have said hey that set of ideas sounds better as a stand-alone thing set up on its own. So maybe that's what your's needs to be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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Holy war is a very subjective term.
You say your in one, as the enemy is horrible. Yet the same thing is being said on the other side.
And for the clans, the invasion was a holy war. They thought they were that superior, and the IS was that weak. If they had truly set out to destroy the IS houses, they would have hit with everything they had. The IS would have been hurt badly, with the LC/DC/FRR being destroyed or hurt so badly, they wouldn't have recovered.
The Helm Core is a problem in itself. It was just the largest intact cache of information the IS got. It was not the ONLY one. As the game presents it like it was the only one. No one was able to gain advanced information from any of the other cores or facilities found in the IS or periphery? Galtor was a major SL facility, yet nothing was found their other then normal weapons and equipment? The Camelot Command had nothing on the specs for more advanced tech, especially dealing with space craft? There were so many caches found, yet still only the Helm Core was the only one to advance anything.
As stated before, ground batteries or even refitting normal dropships with naval grade weapons would have been a priority for the houses, until they got the warships being built. The cost of say guarding Defiance with sound ground based naval weapons would have been far better then allowing yet another dropship fleet ground near the factories. Plus they would be needed to display what those weapons could do, while the warships were being designed.
Maybe Jaime found that the house leaders were not ready for being readied for the clans. It may well have been he was not set up, in his eyes, to really do more then just train units to fight better. Which he did. The Dragoons did a lot of training the IS troops. Supplying them with advanced tech and even the location of the home worlds was not in the cards. What do you think would have happened to the Dragoons if they had showed anything like a clan ERPPC? They would have been attacked by all that could reach them, including the FS/LC. Comstar would have done all they could to remove them from existence.
Much like today. If someone had showed up with say an anti grav tank, do you think the worlds greedy leaders would allow any country other then their own, to have that tech? Destroy it if you can't control it is the mind set.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 12:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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The topic was Terra and how no one voted for Comstar to take control. Other worlds were not part of that specific topic.
And all houses rule thru fear. Why do you think they paint the other houses as vicious overlords, even the houses that rule pretty much like they do? Some normally don't say do this or be tortured.
How long will you continue to kill your own families trying a partisan war against an enemy that has no emotions of whether the population dies or not? They will be more then willing to kill an entire city, if it means removing the cowards that strike from the shadows? They were not fond of their own population back in the homeworlds, much less the lesser beings that populate the IS worlds. No outside help is coming, so you eventually give up or end up being the cause for yet another population center being punished for your actions. Like it or not, most people want to live in a peaceful safe environment. So you don't talk back to the warriors. You do have a set of laws, and have some stability. For some worlds, this means raids do not occur every other week.
Katherine is another example of the way of the clans. They think their vision is the only way things can be, and they kill everything that stands in their way. There is no cut out for one person. She is the same as any other tyrannical leader. She represents the same thing. Worship me or die. She is far worse then the Kurita's or Liao's. Their realms understand that some things are not questioned. For the LC, there is the ability to disagree with the leaders. So Katherine kills you from the shadows.
Interesting. Until Melissa was killed, Victor COULD go off fighting the clans and not having to deal with ruling. He was the right person for the time, as the clans had to be stopped, or the FC would have been destroyed.
Was he the best for ruling without the clans? No.
Was Katherine the best for ruling? No.
Again. The novels do not print every little detail in them. He did provide evidence, and as stated, they were not enough to convict in a public court, as the laws are set up to require specific points. They did get those points from the assassin, but without a living body to cross witness, would not stand in a court of law. This does not mean she is innocent, but means a public court could not convict her without issues. A military tribunal could. The fact that multiple leaders had reached the same conclusion says it all.
So you can defend Defiance from a real attack with a single lance? The enemy will be throwing in at least a regiment of units, and you do not have any control of support units. You think a lance will take a borderworld given they would have a standing garrison as well as militia and such, as well as reinforcements on the way once the attack is found?
The only thing you might do is stop a pirate attack on some back water world. And that doesn't do much to gain you reputation outside of that one world.
You suggest Katherine did what she did to preserve her thoughts of what was needed to 'save' the FC, well use that to say Victor did what he did to 'save' the FC with his vision.
Edited by ghostrider (07/14/22 12:29 PM)
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Karagin
07/14/22 01:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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No, the novels didn't give us everything, but the sourcebooks did build on the information from the novels and each one did give us more information. Thus building the big picture. That is something he keeps missing. The novels and the sourcebooks at one point WORKED together to give us the bigger picture, that died after the Jihad crap started, hell we all paid for at least one or two sourcebooks full of pages of nothing but gibberish and TPTB thought it was funny as they took our money and we smiled like idiots and gave it to them, cause mmmm Battletech and we didn't want to be called names and such.
Jamie was ordered by one of the Wolf Khans, one of the Ward ones, can't recall the guy's first name, to start prepping the Inner Sphere for the coming return of the Clans. So yeah he was indeed dropping hints and working with other groups like Team Banzai, Blackwell Industries, etc...and yes ComStar was terrified their hold on technology would end IF things like the HELM Core was fully understood and used. Daily life would get better, folks would see that new factories could be built and heaven forbid that part of the core happen to have HPG tech in there. And yes if someone showed up with antigrav tech and said hey here it is, you are going to need, all of you, some would be like thanks but only certain nations really need it because they would have the reason all ready to go.
The Clan Invasion was a holy war for them, it was a return to their birthright, as told to them by old Nicky. One that was stolen from them by the evil House Lords, you know the same ones who allowed old Amaris to do what he did and all that jazz, again things that were spelled out from the beginning of the game in all the sourcebooks, and made very clear in the original Star League sourcebook.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/14/22 01:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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It use to be, read the BIG novel but Stackpole or Pardoe, or a couple of trilogy ones about the main units and then you get a sourcebook/scenario-unit book that went into more details. These would have references to things from other books and sourcebooks etc...now it's not like that. Now we get a bunch of random novels and nothing to tie any of it together, The last two major sourcebooks, Tamar and Empire are decent, but they are not really information troves, more like primers. They needed more details and information.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 02:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated before, the novels don't follow the rules of the game. They come up with things that are false or misleading. No where in the rules does it suggest you can crank in a torso in order to give the arms more firing arc. It sounds great to make a story a little more extravagant, but it destroys what people think can be done in the game.
From the looks of it, the source books are being left vague, so they can retcon things in without challenging already printed material.
The next book is required to figure out what happened in the last set of books. Money grab is implied with this style of writing.
As said before, it almost looks like the writers are starting to have problems with writer's block. Given the past lawsuits and the entire sue crazy environment going on, it is understandable. But some of this looks rushed or last minute slam to get something out.
As for the SL, the original one was becoming the great evil before it fell. Corruption from the house lords as well as the TH itself showing thru. Creating the periphery war to distract from greed running things, shows this. As more of the backstory is filled in, it creates such a conflict of facts.
It is interesting that all the SL caches were not emptied for the Amaris war, and yet nothing advanced were found in any of them. As stated, the units from the SL time are the same exact units that were being made in 3025, despite those supposedly being done as tech was lost. They would suggest the SL didn't have advanced versions of those unit, as they are the same from start to finish.
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Requiem
07/14/22 07:47 PM
1.124.26.59
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Then who runs Terra?
The people, ComStar doesn’t have a say – even as a puppet government, they don’t have a say – This is the only way that they can appear to the wider Inner Sphere that they a benign techno-religion that desires peace above all ease.
This is why they hid their ComGuard for so long!
This is how they could maintain their policy of getting the Great Houses to destroy themselves through war – thus when the time comes they could ride out and save humanity through their Blakean Theocracy.
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Both realms got better coordination for their troops
This was circa 3050 onwards at 3039 both CC and FWL were still useless.
Thus the FC could have easily killed off the CC which would have forced the FWL to improve radically and over a very short period of time!
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Each section requires it's own branch to cover it. New York has their own branch, while Los Angeles requires it's own.
And when you analyse the facts what does it show reality is? How about an inability to work with anyone else – disfunction on steroids?
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Tactically, the DC attack was correct.
Sorry but this dog don’t hunt – refer AGAIN back to the Forum post that discussed this in depth, The correct tactical path is …
1st Kill off the CC.
2nd Marriage of alliance FC and FWL
3rd Kill off DC.
4th Reform the SL
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So to hit say Italy from France
Suggest geography and history was never considered ….
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.5,22,4z
They share a common border…. Rome, Caesar attacking the Gaul’s etc….
Also by the 3039 war half of the CC no longer exists so setting up a buffer state along ¾ of the FWL border is impossible!
Again consider having a look at the map first!
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Hurting the DC badly enough would have ended resistance to the FC.
The only way this occurs is when the DC is conquered by the FC and the DC has no more military units as they have all been destroyed!
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Saying the clans can't create a legal SL because you don't like them is your choice.
You do realise this is like one of the renegade countries declaring themselves ruler of world – it is just unrealistic to think anyone would consider the statement plausible – it is just a joke as far as the rest of the wider community would consider!
So they can say it but as far as anyone else cares they would consider them deranged.
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As the same issues crop up in the FS/LC/FC/FWL where someone in power decides they don't like you and make your life a living hell
And in a free society look what happens when the media and the law gets involved …
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A point that needs to be made.
Then how did Victor get to Huntress and then on to Strana Mechty?
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it gives you something to want to take the fight to, and remove them.
Much like having rulers of the IS realm become psychotic killers.
If this is the case then it is war to the death from 3050 onwards – there can never be any respite until one side or the other is dead!
And yet the story we get is the most pathetic plot – full of plot holes and idiotic battles that makes the entire era nothing but a bad joke … (again in my opinion).
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They didn't give a damn and they didn't listen.
And this is why I suggest making your own Alt universe and ignoring TPTB.
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The Wolf Clan controls Terra.
Only for those that follow canon … for the rest of us with our own Alt Universe we can make our own statement as to who has Terra.
Also yes I have stopped buying the books … it is really not that hard to create your own mechs, rules etc.
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but you continue to tell us how your personal version is best
You do realise that I haven’t made this assumption – I have only stated that everyone should be allowed to create their own … this statement is the creation of others … and sorry but I will not be going down the indie path …
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Holy war is a very subjective term.
Not really, is the war being driven by religious ideology / priests / with zealots for warriors.
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And for the clans, the invasion was a holy war.
Then whomever wrote the books should go back and re-read the crusades as their writing does not come across as a holy crusade … it is more of a land grab of the wild west.
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The IS would have been hurt badly, with the LC/DC/FRR being destroyed or hurt so badly, they wouldn't have recovered.
Given logistics as well as sibko – not a chance, it is the Clans that would be badly decimated … they just do not have the numbers as well as the ability to hold worlds with vast populations without resulting to planetary bombardment.
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Galtor was a major SL facility, yet nothing was found
Halstead Collection.
However I would like to know how Books survived to this period of time as well as being man handled by Mech hands in sacks.
In the far future where are the Kindles and the central computer core?
Where are the sci fi gadgets of the star league era?
What did this collection advance tech in?
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Warships
Except for the fact – kid in a candy store phenomena – once they know warships can be re-built most governments would go for these 1st as a matter of state pride and also being the 1st to say they have warships whist everyone else doesn’t … children’s attitudes do not change just because they enter into government.
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What do you think would have happened to the Dragoons if they had showed anything like a clan ERPPC?
This is why you use hidden subsidiary companies in each Great House to proliferate new weapons – and at the same time make a vast amount of money …
It is really not that hard to accomplish!
Consider the Raven Mech – new tech and how was this considered by “greedy leaders”
Another point as to why the CC should have been absorbed into the FC!
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Why do you think they paint the other houses as vicious overlords
Propaganda – USA, Russia, China – how much is true and how much is made up to make their “enemy” look bad, who knows what the truth is unless you live there for an extended period of time.
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They will be more then willing to kill an entire city, if it means removing the cowards that strike from the shadows?
The idea of collateral damage just shows how inept your military / spies really are …
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Like it or not, most people want to live in a peaceful safe environment
Ben Franklin
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
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Katherine is another example of the way of the clans … Worship me or die.
Sorry but I can’t stop laughing again at this.
She never had a demagogue personality and she never terrorised the average citizenry from the shadows … she did keep her nobles in line when they stepped out of line, and yet this is to be expected given the times she rules.
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He was the right person for the time
Morgan, Kell – both could have filled Victor’s military shoes.
Victor, by remaining with his unit, is a waste of space of a Great House Leader as he is demonstrating he is incapable of ruling his empire!
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He did provide evidence
Only to a select few – never to the people as a whole and even then his “evidence” is a waste of space as anyone with any legal understanding will point out that his “evidence” is just made up dribble with absolutely no real proof.
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So you can defend Defiance from a real attack with a single lance?
You can cause severe damage with a single lance – shift change people travel from dropship to plant – soft target or are they protected all the way?
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use that to say Victor did what he did to 'save' the FC with his vision.
Question – how do you guide your empire -administratively, economically etc. as well as direct your entire military from a Command and Control perspective from a Mech cockpit?
An absentee leader is no leader at all.
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No, the novels didn't give us everything, but the sourcebooks did build on the information
So your character in the game has god-like powers at understanding what everyone is doing in the IS – thus equating to knowing everything from all novels / sourcebooks … ?
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So yeah he was indeed dropping hints and working with other groups like Team Banzai, Blackwell Industries, etc
Can you supply a list as to what he actually assisted them with? As besides training all he did was show off the new and improved star from the Spiders.
So yes he definitely assisted the IS in preparing for the Clans (heavy on the sarcasm)
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The Clan Invasion was a holy war for them, it was a return to their birthright, as told to them by old Nicky.
Really? Then can we have better writers who can actually demonstrate this in the novels etc?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 09:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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Suggest you relook into who controls Terra again. Show where it says the people on Terra have their own government that isn't Comstar. I don't recall anything even suggesting there was someone else in charge on Terra.
Give us names, where it says this, as well as what type of government is running Terra, if it isn't Comstar.
This is under the heading Terra in the wiki:
A shroud of secrecy descended over Terra while the quasi-mystical ComStar ruled the system. On Terra, they hid untold divisions of troops and protected Star League-era technology, while the Successor States blasted themselves back to the Industrial Revolution. ComStar ran their HPG network from the First Circuit Compound on Hilton Head Island.
The realms in question was the FS and LC, not the CC or the FWL, as it was about the border of the superstate growing, needing more troops to guard it. Context of the statement being missed again.
Don't understand business ventures in different cities? You need to have staff dealing with each location that live in that location. You lose money trying to sell ice in Alaska in the winter, but in Florida, it sells very well. Different locations have different tastes for other things as well. It is fact that a successful venture requires someone know the location you are operating in. Sending summer clothes to someone stationed at the north or south pole in winter is a horrible idea. And on top of this, you need to have someone coordinate all the different locations so as to make a plan that covers them all, more efficiently. Walmart having their regional warehouses is a prime example of this. Yet they also have staff dealing with distribution in Benton Arkansas, if I recall. Corporate HQ.
Again, that is saying the alt is the only way to go. The dog don't hunt, as the dog doesn't know what it is looking at, or so it seems in this case yet again. There is no reason to marry the Mariks into the Steiner-Davion lines, when you take out the DC. And that still doesn't solve the issues of bringing in the chaos the FWL brings into that mess. The TH did NOT marry any into the ruling line of the SL. Once the DC was defanged, the others would look for a beneficial solution.
Unless there is someone that will back up your thoughts that is on the board, it is only you that thinks the DC is the wrong choice.
Yeah, I mistyped. I meant Spain, not France. But you could use France and China or Iran, or something like that.
As for a buffer state, the same could be said of the FRR being a buffer state between the LC and DC. It requires the enemy to go thru the weaker nation before hitting parts of your border. SO unless you are going after the FWL, the CC remaining allows more focus everywhere. Once it falls, then you have to put more troops in that area.
Given the economic might of the FC, that wouldn't have been as hard as the developers wanted. Which is why they had to cut back on their own troop numbers.
War is not all conquered or nothing comes of it. Putting the DC in a hurt state, would force them to negotiate at a reduced position. The DC would settle if it meant being utterly destroyed otherwise. This is the same situation for the FWL and CC. If they seen it was surrender or die, they would surrender. A good negotiations might mean little disruption to the state. Otherwise, why would any war end without complete annihilation of the enemy?
The problem with the SL being clan run is you have to beat them in order to stop it. So far, nothing has been able to do so. And just because you are the new SL, doesn't mean everyone will flock to it to join. Which is part of a problem with names. People want to be part of the name, even if the substance is crap.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 09:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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And in a free society look what happens when the media and the law gets involved …
Funny. The statement that the quote answers said just that. Someone with power can make lives difficult in any society.
Not this again. The use of terms like Only viable solution is very much saying only one way to see this. Still not getting thru.
A holy war is ideology being put into attacking others. The clans holy war was to retake the holy land of Terra and restart the ideology that was the SL, with their vision. Just because you don't like that vision means it isn't true.
The amount of damage that would have been done with all clans attacking, and this would not be limited to their batchalls, but total warfare, would have kept the situation of reinforcements low. No single trinary fighting a battalion situation would have come from this. It would be drop a galaxy on each world, and rinse and repeat. Warships would be used to wipe out anything that isn't clan. So no reinforcements. No running from worlds. Pure annihilation of anything that resists. Nukes and bombardments are not necessary, with only a few rare occasions with bombardments. Taking out major military bases is about it. And as such, ship yards would not be safe from this attack. The clans could always build more, until you found their location.
If I recall, NAIS was based on the information found in the Halstead Collection. So something of importance was there.
I can field the refits far sooner then your warship will come off line. I can hit your construction facilities or even just occupy them so you can't finish, would be why you would do the refits as soon as you had the weapons. This does not mean you stop doing the warship research. But in order to have the weapons to test on a warship, they need to be built first. Hence, the refits as well. Get them out now, and start removing the enemies ability to move troops.
The Raven was built with tech available to the entire IS at the time. It wasn't like an ER laser in 3025. Secret locations would become targets once people found out where they were. There is no way the Dragoons could have mass produced those weapons and not been hit by all. Comstar would especially take them out. Quietly, but it would never end.
What is the end goal of painting the enemy as tyrants? Cause your people to fear them. Not sure why this logical step was missed.
Again, quoting those that never really had to make a choice between living, or dying immediately. Ben was never imprisoned and forced to choose between life or death in the moment. So sweet crap can be said, but when put into that situation, the outcome if far different. I would have done this, then they do what they were saying they wouldn't is very common in an overwhelming majority.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 09:45 PM
45.51.181.83
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Are you reading the same books as everyone else? Katherine did terrorize normal civvies from the shadows. Those that did not drop and worship her immediately were punished for having dared stand for more then a second. What do you think striking from the shadows is? A military strike on a world threatens all, not just a few. Collateral damage is regrettable, but you should have killed the person next to you when they didn't hurt themselves falling to the ground to worship at my feet. The famed gas explosion comes to mind here.
I will assume you mean Morgan Hasek, as Morgan Kell is one person. They could have helped, but not done the job instead of Victor. In both realms, Victor was a warrior, and as such, had to lead the forces into battle. Otherwise, he would be branded a coward, and hounded for that. Or did the use of any perceived weakness fail here? And Katherine would have done just that. There was nothing Victor could have done without being shown as weak. Not sure why this has to be stated, but I guess not all the puzzle is clear.
As the clans was a time sensative issue, and mom was still around at first, he did not have to focus on office work. And as said before, he was not needed in the office. You have aides and ministers trained to run the government while he is out. They do operate for long terms while the ruler is out of touch, or even dead. That is WHY the government has such things going on.
As with spreading rumors, only a few are needed. Those that did get the info, realized that they would have to side with against Katherine or be pulled into her schemes. Continue to support a person that killed millions and suffer along with her, or stay quiet and not deal with the fall out.
But the information was out there, not completely lacking as been the charge.
Do you really think the ruler of a nation does much to run day to day operations? Not even close. They make the large decisions, and even then, they allow those they trust to make them, until they get a chance to review it. Golfing trips of presidents show this.
You based the entire begining of the ALT on the source books not in game knowledge. The statement of the books filling in the facts was not about in game knowledge, but information the players would want to get the history and facts straight. Not sure why this had to be said either. Other then trying to get an argument going.
How do you know that the Dragoons didn't give the others some advanced tech? Or tactics that would counter the clans? Or even have them set up some research in order to close the gap quickly? The IS had the clan tech retro engineered rather quickly. How do you know it wasn't because of the support the Dragoons gave? How do you know the Dragoons didn't give the others information that helped form the concept that Comstar was working with the clans?
You want better writing, this is the wrong board to complain about it. The official board is where to go. They need to figure out everything before sending out the books, as the retcons seem to do more damage then good. But in the end, the story is going to be basic repeats of the past, as there is only so many ways you can create wars. Unless you add in aliens to get a greater threat. And at that point, I think most would stop dealing with new books.
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Requiem
07/15/22 02:10 AM
1.125.23.135
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Quote:
Suggest you relook into who controls Terra again. Show where it says the people on Terra have their own government that isn't Comstar.
Ok. I click on https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terra
I then scan down the page to Infrastructure, Ruler
President of the Terran Congress Chris Windsor-Cameron (3076)
Governor, Richard Guilani (3130)
Legate, Helen Richter (3130)
Um… can someone fix the dates Richard and Helen …. Other than that we can clearly see that the people of Terra have their own government that isn’t ComStar.
Can I ask why it is so difficult to just have a look at the complete site prior to making a comment?
Also – can someone please explain how a small Clan force like Clan Wolf govern Terra when in 3130 the population is 12,678,000,000 – as this once more defies all logic.
Also - if we use the percentage per capita of each world that forms each planet’s regular military how many hundreds of regular regiments are on Terra, including air-force and armoured, that the Clans would have to fight to win the planet. Thus can we say once more that the idea of the Clans Taking Terra is once more a huge joke!
Sorry but the idea of two clans who fight each other to a bloody pulp then being allowed to take Terra without a fight with the planet’s regular forces is beyond ludicrous of the highest order!
Quote:
Don't understand business ventures in different cities?
Suggest looking into globalization and why large corps. take advantage of local resources in foreign countries. e.g. Tesla is now in USA, Germany and China ….
Quote:
There is no reason to marry the Mariks into the Steiner-Davion lines
At this stage the FWL has two choices – 1. Join into Marriage with the FC o become the FFC or 2. Face invasion and conquest by the FC … it is simpler to marry into the FC and then your grandchild takes the throne (and become part of the solution that reforms the SL) than it is to engage in a war that will ultimately destroy the FWL.
Quote:
the same could be said of the FRR being a buffer state between the LC and DC.
Really .. if we don’t take into account the lunacy of the Lyrans giving back the RR how great if the RR as a buffer state?
They would be conquered in one month flat … so yes they really are an effective buffer state (heavy on the sarcasm)
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Given the economic might of the FC, that wouldn't have been as hard as the developers wanted.
Then where are all the new BattleMech / Aerospace Regiments given the economic might of the FC …
Quote:
Putting the DC in a hurt state
Pointless circa 3039. By obtaining the CC they are increasing the economic might of the FC .. thus in the future destroy the DC with an overwhelming force of arms …
Quote:
you have to beat them in order to stop it. So far, nothing has been able to do so.
Except for rational thought as well as TPTB favouring them above all others – Pax Clan.
Logic dictates that they would fall over during their initial invasion circa 3050 – Logistics, non existent, Sibko numbers replacement personnel non existent, ability to police worlds with a large population, non existent
Sorry but the Clans have more holes than Swiss cheese when it comes to their ability to invade the IS …
Quote:
Only viable solution
And who is bring it up?
Quote:
A holy war is ideology being put into attacking others.
In a holy war you do not stop EVER! The head of the religious movement is driving them on …. Also how many religious sermons do you see the clans attending where the priest stands up and provides a sermon before going into battle …
Quote:
No single trinary fighting a battalion situation would have come from this.
Question – how many times were conventional forces allowed to fight in the battle at the same time as the Mechs
So when hit by Artillery, Armour, Mass LRMs, VTOL and Aerospace forces all at the same time in a kill box how does the mighty clans survive? They are not ready to fight IS style they only know how to fight in a box!
They would be chewed alive!
Quote:
Warships would be used to wipe out anything that isn't clan.
And the second this commences we are now in a nuclear war where ever clan force will be hit with multiple 100 mega ton warheads …
So great and wonderful we are back to fighting the Jihad again … however this time the kid gloves are off so good luck in coming back from that!
Quote:
I can field the refits far sooner then your warship will come off line.
Semantics based upon whom the Game Master is … I can just as easily say may warships have been in production for months and thus I will have a 100 coming off the line in 2 days …
Quote:
The Raven was built with tech available to the entire IS at the time.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven
“was one of the first truly original 'Mech designs produced in centuries.”
How about the ECM how many had this electronic warfare device when it came off the line?
Quote:
Cause your people to fear them.
Suggest researching propaganda …
Quote:
Ben
Quote:
I would have done this, then they do what they were saying they wouldn't is very common in an overwhelming majority.
So the American war of independence war wrong and the American colonists should have surrendered to the English Red Coats as this was the better option?
Quote:
Katherine did terrorize normal civvies from the shadows.
Book, page number and quote please
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Victor was a warrior
Really, how did that warrior go in his first couple of battles as well as when he was saved by Kai with the detonation of explosives in the gash?
Also a ruler is expected to be in the C&C bunker directing ALL the units not just the one he is with on a single planet!
Then you have to ask how great a statesman was he when he was never home completing the government tasks expected of a ruler …
Incompetent does not begin to describe the level of stupidity he brings to the battlefield and to the wider war and his own state.
Quote:
rumors
So we are back to Cat TV and Dog TV – whom you listen to is whom you believe is providing you with the truth, whereas both are just incompetent and biased as the other!
Rumours are just that Rumours … where is the truth?
Quote:
Do you really think the ruler of a nation does much to run day to day operations?
Then why have a leader at all – get rid of them all and we can just let the heads of each government department run the government for the state …
Civil war in 5 seconds flat! As well as an empire that is unbale to defend or attack.
Quote:
How do you know that the Dragoons didn't give the others some advanced tech?
For someone that professes the sanctity of the Canon Word and how accurate it is – where is the proof that they did where is written that they did these benevolent acts on the part of the IS?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 11:52 AM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. I guess you didn't see that 3076 was during WOBs ownership of the world. So at that point, Comstar wasn't in charge of the world. I would also question if that was just a puppet set up as well. But from the time Comstar was put in charge of the HPG network to that time, there doesn't look like any government beyond Comstar.
Given the time frame of the Wolf clan invasion of Terra, how many people are actually in the military? It seems a lot less soldiers are kept in garrisons, probably due to the fact that you don't require that many with only one government on the world. Cost cutting would be done as the big bad stompy mechs are there to protect them. But it has been stated, the concept of even 10,000 soldiers running an entire hostile world does not work.
Each branch has their own logistics. legal resources, and such, and when Tesla expands to another country, they will have to expand their work force to cover those as well. Then even more are needed to keep up with the expansions at home. It gets to a point that costs start limiting growth for companies. The type of product does influence how many workers are needed. Computers have cut down this number dramatically, but you still need living bodies to deal with some jobs. Inventory needs to be done every so often, as things are not always updated in a system properly. Governments form new departments, but because some of the old ones are required by law, and not updated, still remain, even though most, if not all, of their responsibilities are handled by the new department. So each addition adds to the overhead of people needed. New layers put into effect.
Try playing some city building games. Need, power? New plant. You don't have the funds for it? Need a new set of roads? No funds for it? All entities that pay their bills, deal with this.
So how did marrying into the SL work? Again. There is no reason, other then it is your idea, to have the FWL marry into the FC. The very concept of someone from the FWL taking over the throne is a very good reason why not to allow it. Even without assassinations, accidents do happen, and it is possible down the line, that it might come down to it. Also, there are some on both sides of that issue, that are just like the DC scenario with Omi.
A non marriage political agreement can be done. Would it last? Doubt it. Even a marriage doesn't mean it will last. Hell, the next civil war might see the FWL portion grow larger.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 12:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Sarcasm works. It is funny that you don't understand what a buffer state is, given the response. It is meant to give another nation time to respond to an attack. It was not designed to stop the attack. So that month spent taking out the FRR means the DC/LC has time to get defenses moving and mobilize troops. If done right, you get your reinforcements into the buffer state to keep the fighting there, instead of in your lands.
Basic logic. Again. Not sure why this had to be said.
Why wait to start taking out the DC? The amount of industry that the CC might have offered was not that great with the exception of the ship manufacturers. Taking worlds from the DC means hurting their ability to use forces against you, as well as taking what they have. The FC did have overwhelming force, but did not have secrecy to redo the 4th war, as well as not knowing Comstar got involved. The problem was the FC did not want a repeat of the 4th war depression that happened because of the use of so many ships. The stupidity of the weekly meetings of the LC forces is what eventually stopped the invasion. The surprise of the new units was some of it, but losing the entire LC push was what did it.
It also means they held ships up for command circuits from all of the officers that attended the meeting. They had to be moved to and from the meetings, meaning even less being used to move troops and supplies.
Logic does not dictate the clans would be defeated during the first invasion. Until the IS was able to finally figure out how to deal with them, the clans had the advantage locally. Strategically is where they were defeated. As with almost any successful raiders, overwhelming the local defenses is key. A small raiding force and bring a larger force to defeat by hit and run. The larger force is stuck guarding everything, which means less forces in any one area.
The fact the IS never hit worlds already taken by the clans is a sore point. Comstar covering for the clans pretty much made sure this didn't happen.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 12:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The continued use of only way things can be done keeps coming up in responses on your end. There is no definite answers when it comes to canon, but it is how the game proceeds. The logic produced does not fit with the scenario brought up to counter canon. Wording is why the only viable solution situation keeps popping up. Again, put up the alt so all can read or leave it out of arguments with canon.
So far, the logic shown is faulty at best.
The clans have acted in the way they are presented. They believe they are superior, so made some simple mistakes as they could not fathom the enemy being able to oppose them. And as stated before, the DC would never have formed if they had used the proper amounts of soldiers to take worlds from others. They would not have had enough after the third or fourth world. So start there with this situation, and then work up to the clans.
Given the fact that the clans had nukes, it would not be a one way affair if nukes were used. The big issue is the clans can jump in, launch, and jump back out before you can do anything. Given the Bugeye description of their jumps, you probably wouldn't even know they were there until the missiles/bombs hit the world. This would go against the clans ways, but had they invaded like they should have, it would have been done, once nukes were used against them.
Holy wars isn't just about religion. It also starts from hatred. The use of an almighty deity helps push the warriors on, but in the clans, they don't worship anything but being the ultimate warrior. As stated, the term holy war is not clear cut as you might think.
A GM can have the REF from Robotech, or the Death Star show up in a game. Given the fact that the Helm Core was given to all houses except the CC at about the same time, it is easy to assume most discoveries will come about the same time. Naval weapons would be done before warships could be designed, as they were built with specific weapons in mind. While trying to figure out how and where to add those weapons, they would be being produced during the warships research. So no. You will not be having warships done by the time I had naval weapons on dropships using real time logic. Granted, It is possible to find a weapons cache that allows you to do the research while the naval weapons are still being done. It still doesn't deal with building the engines for the warships. Oh yeah. Another step needed in order to make a warship.
The description in the Raven mech is wrong. The Hatchetman, Wolfhound, Axeman, and others were done within a century of the Raven. The Hatchetmans head assembly was the first of it's kind. The upgraded Raven was the first production model to use the ECM, but that does not mean the other houses didn't have the ECM ready.
So the first in centuries is incorrect.
Propaganda is slanting statements in order for people to think they way you want them do, in order to get them to do as you want. It is used by all, though some moreso then others, with a few being complete fabrications. Pretty much lying.
The independence war was fought because crimes committed by the crown, distance, and the fact others distracted the crown from sending their full might. With any war, how many actually fight? Only in a genocidal war, does a majority of the people go fight. Motivational speeches are done to get more to do something. Each person decides if they will fight or not. There were those that supported the crown in the U.S at the time as well.
Was it worth it? For the U.S. it was. It does not mean those that didn't actual fight, didn't do their part. Growing food, gathering intel, making supplies needed by the soldiers is another way to resist without actually firing a gun. But it is the soldiers that gain the credence for winning wars.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 01:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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Read the entire history of Katherine's rise to power. The used her status to intimidate and even remove those that upset her. Her actions showed all that if you did upset her, you would be punished. That is terrorizing as much as holding a gun to someone's head. The threat of violence to coerce action of others ring a bell? Extortion is a nicer word for it.
Where does it say Victor never was at the capital to deal with things? Not only communications being sent to deal with things the aides couldn't, but message bundles as well as him personally using the command circuits would be utilized. We know when Katherine went to make a deal with the clans, the entire Fc fell apart during her 3 month out of contact run. The FS ran fine while Ian and Hanse were in the field. All nations have had their leaders running the country from the field and none collapsed because of it. The fact is, Victor was NOT needed to sit in the throne room or else the nation would fall under it's own weight. If not for Katherine's ambitions, the FC would have been fine while he was dealing with the clans on Stana Mechty. Oh yeah, this would include his brothers and sisters dealing with things if the ministers and aides couldn't. Hmmm... Momma Melissa come to mind?
And again. Nondi ran the LC portion of the armed forces, and resisted Victor's commands. She did it her way and lost.
Rumors is what Katherine used to portrait all in a bad light. No facts to back it up, just innuendos and implications. And a lot of rumors have a small bit of truth in there. It might be as simple as the person being in the area. Rumors of an SL cache has lead to finding a treasure trove. So yeah. Who do you think is telling the truth, and how much of what they say is the truth is the key.
I tell my generals to take out an enemy. I know nothing of war, so you think that I have to suggest how they do so?
They tell me what they need, and honestly, I just ok it. I don't even have to be there. Just tell the quartermaster make it happen. I don't have to tell the minister of agriculture to turn on and off the water to the crops in the field. I don't tell the transportation department to start up the busses or trains. I don't tell the donut maker to make the donuts.
Leaders are there to make decisions when those in charge of departments have issues that require other departments input. Agreement between then is needed or someone has to make the choice. A good aide can do so without needing the leader involved.
Keeping an eye on things is a smart thing, but then I don't stand there snooping around. That is left to the intel and inspectors departments.
A CEO is a prime example of this. They have staff that does all the work, and all I need to do is have someone brief me, so I don't even have to read the reports. I say yes or no to things no one else can deal with. Which honestly shouldn't be all that much. And that can be done over the phone most of the time. If it was that difficult, then you could not be the CEO of multiple companies.
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Requiem
07/15/22 06:35 PM
1.125.21.111
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Terran Government – research Terran Affairs – the liaison between ComStar and the citizens of Terra.
Not only must the Wolf’s contend with Terra – they also need to contend with Venus, Mars and the Belters (I hope there is enough differences between BattleTechs Belters and the Expanse Belters or there is going to be trouble again!)
Also as each world is an Island unto themselves the idea they don’t have a conventional military force becomes hard to believe …
Also suggest taking a business course on Globalization … as way off the mark as to why corporations take advantage of local resources especially with regards to Tesla’s giga-factories.
FWL – Historically speaking any alliance between great states has always been conducted via a marriage - so being conquered by the FC in the absence of the Clans is the way to go?
Buffer state – you do realise that this is a space faring community, thus any military can be just transported through the RR and attack the DC directly (as does anyone believe the RR will attack the FC - Lyrans directly?) – suggest having a look at a map as to width and length of a RR that does not include Lyran worlds – it is hardly an obstacle for Jumpships to bypass.
In a space faring society buffers only exist if the width of he realm is great enough to induce a time lag with regards to logistics and you are only allowed to use existing travel routes – however the concept of hidden worlds and hidden transport routes can also be applied where a state can locate a string of habitable hidden worlds to be used as forward operating bases from which to strike at an enemy deep into their space. It is really not that hard to imagine any state utilizing the hidden world doctrine at any time for their own benefit – the problem is TPTB never allowed any state other than Comstar / WoB to utilize this – which again you have to wonder why?
Also suggest you re-read the forum created by me as to why the CC and not the DC should have been the target of 3039 war as it included all CC industries on every world provided … way in excess of anything the DC could provide the FC … thus once more making the CC the tempting target it is rather than the DC
And yes logic does dictate that the Clan would loose the First Invasion – Sibko numbers and the Loss Depletion Report per Clan, as per basic logic, indicates a vast discrepancy – also tyranny of distance as to Clan Logistics also indicates a fatal flaw in their invasion – just ask Napoleon and the Nazi’s when attacking Russia – and then there is the inability to hold what they have taken as they do not have the forces necessary to hold the number of worlds they have taken – then there is the idea of partisans and IEDs / assassinations etc.…. Sorry but the Clan invasion as provided is ludicrous in the extreme given the small military fleet size. It just does not work!
Then there is the point that the IS would come together far earlier than given to form a united front ….
The invasion as provided is completely and utterly a bad joke on steroids …
clans can jump in, launch, and jump back out before you can do anything. – problem is you have to know the exact coordinates of all pirate points and even then, a jump causes shock waves that can be detected by the forces garrisoned on the world – then there is the issue of worlds hat have bunkers to survive nuclear war ….
Sorry but the IS has way more nukes than the Clans – so unless they want to stay in space and never have land fall again this is going to get nasty for both sides. Also the I was under the impression that both the Bugeye and the Pony Express Jumpship (Pre HPG times) are no longer allowed in the game.
Sorry but Holy War is just that clear cut! Suggest looking on the web for examples!
Semantics – yes I can have warships even if they are just jolly-Rodger armed merchantmen – as long as you have the biggest gun on the block with the longest range you can stand off and blaze away at enemy ships if they do not have the range to fire back … even dropships with naval weapons can use this principle. (If TPTB allowed the conversion – however any state would so home mods are now required …)
Question – did he Hatchetman incorporate an ECM? How about either the Wolfhound or the Axman?
Propaganda – how many bought into what was said? Especially when Victor said his sister killed their brother – when it was discovered by a copper on the ground that he was kidnapped – info sold to Uncle Chandy …..
And yet Victor didn’t care to read the report?
So massive ooooppppps there!
Crimes committed by the crown – since when did taxation become a crime?
Sending their full might – ow that pesky war within Europe at the same time?
That said was Ben correct – as this still hasn’t been answered?
Ben Franklin
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Also consider where Ben was during the war of independence ….
used her status to intimidate and even remove those that upset her – so normal operating procedure to running an interstellar government, what’s the problem?
Where does it say Victor never was at the capital to deal with things? – how about his bio that shows where he is throughout his entire life.
All nations have had their leaders running the country from the field and none collapsed because of it. – Only because TPTB do not have the imagination to understand what happens here – it doesn’t work, the leader must be on the capitol world to keep the government going – only minor times away with a regent does the system keep working.
Rumours – televised transcripts of what she is doing / tabloid exposés etc again normal operating procedure ….
I tell my generals to take out an enemy. I know nothing of war, so you think that I have to suggest how they do so? – what a great way to loosing your empire! Ignore what is going on and keep your head buried in the sand, ow how your people will rejoice that you do not care about their pain and suffering as well as why they are dying to keep you on the throne in the lap of luxury.
And yes having a OK policy to every piece of paper placed on your desk what a great way to becoming the most incompetent ruler ever created …
A CEO is a prime example of this. They have staff that does all the work, and all I need to do is have someone brief me – and ten minutes later the company has fallen over …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 07:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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Might need to put that thought into all the systems defended in all the succession wars and the clan invasion. Multiple worlds had to be dealt with in more then one system. Hesperus has at least 2 worlds that are inhabited. 2 is the most famous for the main factory.
When all people are supposed to be one government, the only real 'need' for security comes from pirates and rebels. So a standing military isn't necessary. Normal security forces should do. So not was many or as well trained as the military is supposed to be. And if anything like a lot of companies today, they are understaffed and lacking full gear.
Taking advantage of local sources is still having to have local offices. So you still need to add more people to run the company. That means more stress on money flow. If done right, this is not an issue. But it still means having more staff.
When saying great states, are you talking the 5 major ones? Or all of the smaller ones that became the 5? More then a few of the smaller ones did so without a marriage involved. Most were conquests that ended in an agreement.
Still not getting buffer state, I see. The need for depots and such comes up, but it is the time it takes to move thru the area. If the LC hit the DC near Terra, they could have just walked straight in. Hitting in the FRR area, they have to travel across the FRR in order to enter the DC. This gives them some time to get things going. But yes. Space nations are a bit different then land bound ones in that fact.
Don't need to reread the reasons. They don't bear enough realistic logic to work properly. It has some points, but not more then hitting the DC. The CC and FWL combined are not as much of a threat to the FC as the DC is.
Once the main threat is gone, you get to demand more from the others, as they have little choice to resist.
Eventually, the reinforcement of the clan front line would suffer, but not for a while. If they were used like they should have been, the FRR would be completely gone as well as the rest of the clans being without 4 jumps of Terra. Luthien and Tharkad would have been hit hard if not taken. The main thing that slowed them down was the time schedule they made for themselves. With more clans involved, it would have been accelerated more then what the Wolves did.
Holding the worlds is always a sore point with the game and realism. As stated a few times, the DC would never have formed if that was taken into account.
Bugeye was removed as it violated the construction rules, if I recall. The pony express is the same thing as the command circuit, just a different name.
As for the number of nukes, until you have some targets, they don't matter as much. So the clans were safe until the home worlds were found.
The jump point data the SLDF took with them only needs an update, and that isn't so difficult. They found the jump points to all worlds without needing Comstar to update them. They may even know more pirate points then the IS does in systems. As stated in another thread, the galaxy is constantly moving. So the light you see today is years out of date on where the systems are now.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 08:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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Semantics? You just showed why dropships with naval weapons would be a great step before warships would have been done. They could stand at range and pepper things with harder hitting power then even an LRM 20 or normal gauss rifle. A small fleet of them could remove all defenses around a world quickly. Fighters being the exception. And that could be dealt with in a few ways. Running them out of fuel is a good way. As you can hit their carriers to make sure they can not be recovered in the system away from worlds. Jumping out when you can, catching them in the jump wash is another.
Taxation was the last straw, so got the main focus.
How many colonies and such needed guarding as well as all the merchant lanes? Again, the concept that you do not have to protect more then just one location shows up again. So no. The full might could not be brought to bear. And France did blockade the U,K. to help with the revolution. Something that couldn't have happened if the U.K. had a majority of their forces near the U.S.
How many battles did Ben actually fight? Unlike George, I haven't heard of a single one.
So the ECM is the only reason why it was so great? The full head ejection of the Hatchetman was nothing? The hatchet itself was nothing? No other model before it had that incorporated into it.
Unlike Melissa's death, that was an a mistake. Didn't change the fact that Katherine was killing people to gain power. Nothing you say will change this fact.
And yet a command circuit can have him at the capital in less then 2 days, and back out in less then a week. Hmmm. Sounds like a flaw in the logic there. As stated, there is nothing saying he was never there. Just that most of the time he was in the field.
The one exception is when going to the clans home worlds.
How many leaders of countries in the world go to other nations to discuss things? They are gone for weeks at times and yet none of those nations failed. Real world nations, not the game nations. So real fact negates your concept here.
Your reaction says it all. I do NOT have to sit there dealing with things. I have others that bring me briefings. It does NOT mean I have left them without a watchdog. I do not have to tell them hit this town, or shoot that strong point. It is also why you have people you trust in command of things. Something that seems to be overlooked in a lot of responses..
What company has done that? Most of the time, they fail because the CEO screws the company over, and this is on purpose. The fact that they do not deal with collecting the data is a main point. The recommendation of those with the knowledge is normally what sticks. The CEO is there to rubber stamp it. Sometimes it is wrong, and sometimes it is right. When wrong, they replace the staff that suggested the solution. The CEO normally doesn't get replaced. What happenes? Oh yeah. Bad advice from those below them. Overpaid to lie.
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Requiem
07/16/22 09:21 AM
1.125.22.227
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Really?
One Government with no standing military just a security force – In a space faring community Amaris proved that a hidden military can be created to which they can overthrow the one government.
V, “People shouldn’t be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.”
How can you increase profits with a static product line that refuses to consider growth into new markets?
He need for depots in a space faring community – with the hidden world doctrine they can be created years in advance of any invasion – again just ask Amaris, ComStar , WoB, the Clans, Wolf’s Dragoons and the Wolverines as the marvels of hidden worlds. And yet a point no one else even considered even with historical precedence. TPTB created a wonderful space opera!
So let me get this straight – it is better to hit a harder target first (that has the capability of mortally wounding you) – than it is to strike a vulnerable target that will enable your forces increase in volatility / quickly – as you want to leave them to last just so you can make a point.
Whereas if you did destroy the weakest first your Leader would be the First to ever kill off a Great House and take their realm for his own.
Really? On what universe is this even remotely viable?
Construction Rules – Warships
Sorry but I am under the impression that every construction yard should have their own rules – sale for Dropships and Jump-ships as designs and underlining technology would change from yard to yard …
Having a standardized rule base system may be great for a simple game – yet the problem is that simple craft like PTs are not allowed within the Clan Invasion when he one eyed king can see they are necessary for the continuation of a logical technological development (requirement) of the early stages of the war.
P.S. the Clans bids cannot reach Terra as they run out of forces (no they bid) way before reaching Terra.
None of the Khans sat down and attempted basic maths to work it out!
Jump point Data – of every pirate point? Really?
Yes dropships with large guns sounds like a good idea – problem is the amount of armour they have (one hit and your dropship is dead – can this be said with a warship?) as well as the amount of electronics (Radar etc) (Can they find you first due to advanced electronics) they have as well as he amount of fighters they carry (can their fighters find you first and call in the big guns?) as well as the amount of Dropships (interlocking field of fire over a wider area) they can carry that may also have large guns on them also …
Taxation was the last straw – and here I though it was due to the utilization of the taxation on the importation of Indian Tea which was being used to bail out the East India Corp.
French Blockade – Bay of Biscay 12/12/1781
How many battles did Ben actually fight? Unlike George, I haven’t heard of a single one.
Really? Has the US education system fallen so far? – served from 1776 to 1178 on commission to France – he was charged with the task of gaining French Support for American Independence – his war was that of Diplomat, not all were fighting on the front lines commanding troops!
So how important was French assistance, that he gained, during the War?
What is he strategic and tactical importance of an ECM on the battlefield?
Katherine was killing people to gain power – and how did that work out for Victor to maintain power and to gain power and to just stay alive due to his incompetence as a c.o. – and ordering the execution of a lord whom he suspected of treason and yet could not prove, or how about a young boy whom he let die in a hospital far from family just because he wanted to maintain his military supplies – that resulted in a war of his own making?
Blood is on everyone’s hands! So situation normal …
And yet a command circuit can have him at the capital in less than 2 days and back out in less than a week – Really where is this mythological staging point is it anywhere in the IS, if so this quantum leap in transport time will make wars far more interesting.
How many leaders of countries in the world go o other nations to discuss things – what is the distance from one point in the world to another and can communication be controlled by a third party?
So on earth distance is in Km where as in space it is in light years – communication on earth is not interrupted as you have our own satellite where as in space you are at the whims of ComStar …
Some how this reads like comparing an apple to a pineapple … and saying they are the same.
Sorry but a CEO’s position if far more onerous and time consuming than what is considered …
Really? The CEO screws the company over on purpose and is only there as a rubber stamp? this statement is the thunderous.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 11:44 AM
45.51.181.83
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Having a military that can destroy a city in a few hours, and having a security force that is set to deal with people is not the same thing, but the security force is more able to handle a rebellion. As law abiding citizens, weapons such as missile launchers and even battle mech, not worker mechs, would not be in large supplies.
Yes, they can be shipped in, which is why customs and such exist. Smuggling will be the next point to deal with.
Power armor would be more helpful in a city fight then a single battlemech.
Having a standing military is expensive, and unnecessary. But this is not clear. I did not mean having no forces, just nothing larger then say a company of mechs with maybe a battalion of tanks. Part of what the national guard is for. This is especially true for smaller populations.
it is not said that you can't grow. It was pointed out that when you do, you add in more costs, with some getting to the point of losing money. Play simcity or some other city building game sometime. Might be boring to some, but it does teach you the balance required to running things. Add in a new police force, and it costs for the build, and running it. Water pumps? Power plant? Fire department? All force the same things. Reduced budget when they are first put down, helps but there is only so much income, and a lot of things have to be dealt with. City Skylines is very interesting upgrade of a city builder. There are others.
So you will pull forces off a border with the most dangerous enemy, in order to hit someone like Hawaii? You deal with the biggest threat as soon as you can. The DC could well have hit the FC and taken worlds, maybe even destroying production facilities that you need later on. And capturing intact factories is not guaranteed in the CC. If they are going to die, why allow the enemy to use those facilities?
Yes, they still pose a danger, but nothing like the DC does. And in the end, when you control all, but have some puppet running the other areas, you have a fall back of saying all bad thing are because of the local leader. Also, you force someone else to make the hard choices of keeping the people alive and happy, while you remain clear of the crap.
Also, you would not have to fight for all of the lands, as the weaker ones would fold quicker then a strong nation.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Bugeye was a violation of the games construction rules. When they changed the jump drive rules, the Bugeye did not meet the requirements. Think the drive was too small. I believe it was smaller then the Scout Jumpship.
Actually, the Wolves had figured out part of that issue. They knew it was foolish to invade the IS.
But this does show the issues with the IS military as well. A single regiment of infantry is not enough to protect worlds that are on hostile borders. Security forces can be used for most, but the numbers is the key. By the way, security forces include police, constables and other such law enforcement entities.
Every pirate point isn't that far fetched. They ruled for a few centuries, with their spies and such having to have ways to enter systems and not be detected. They would have mapped the entire IS for no other reason that to protect against insurrections. They have a far better understanding on how worlds react to gravity shifts in a system. They knew things like where to put Camelot Command, so it would allow jumpship to pull out of a jump. Most pirate points don't change over centuries. The open and close as gravity is shifted because of objects in that system.
I would believe other objects would change this as well, as other systems do influence the system as well. A passing planet may well change the gravity while it is in the area.
SO why did you moan about not having dropships with big weapons?
As stated, they would have been done while the warships are being built. And as for the argument of why have them if they die so quickly? Because your warships can not be everywhere, and dropships are more likely to be guarding multiple jump points, unlike a single war ship. With a successful strike, I can destroy your warship production rather quickly with the big gunned dropships. And you would not have much to defend with.
Building a secret base is much easier when no one is watching. Once they suspect, it is much harder to do so.
Taxation was the last straw – and here I though it was due to the utilization of the taxation on the importation of Indian Tea which was being used to bail out the East India Corp.
Isn't this taxation? The increased amount of tax was what finally got the colonies to say no more crimes against the people. Didn't matter what it was used for, except it wasn't the help the colonists.
So you gave the answer of Ben. He served a purpose, but nothing in combat. So he was away from the suffering for a good portion of the war.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 12:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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Guess comprehension failed again. The ECM part of it was not the problem with the statement of the Raven. The only newest invention in centuries was. Other mechs were made in the time of the fall of the SL. So the fluff was incorrect.
Still trying to suggest Katherine was not doing so for personal power, and possible pleasure?
The examples you gave, show Victor was not doing so for gaining more power for himself, but to prevent the nation from suffering far more then it was.
Did he gain from it personally? Yes. A safe realm meant he was not having to be dealing with insurrections and such. The clans prevented him from becoming the leader that was needed. Having the clans stopped was the most important thing at the time.
It does not mean he should be promoted to deity status.
Honestly, if it meant saving millions of lives in exchange for one life, guess what is going to happen.
Katherine was a lot like Max Liao. Spending lives to increase their own ego was not even a consideration but required.
It appears you don't understand the command circuit. A series of jumpships is put in place to allow a dropship, or even a simple shuttle, to be handed off to a charge ship that will jump to the next destination. All links have such a ship, so the main down time is the passenger being moved from ship to ship. Not sure where this is a feat of magic.
As his command moves, so does the last couple of jumpships being put in place. A second jumpship is required at the end points, to avoid recharge time, or even hot loading the drives.
This is basic information. The jump calculations would already be done, so once the shuttle is onboard and secured, the jump happens.
Have you finally figured out the way the distance affects the game? And yet, still do not understand the concept of having people in position to make decisions when you can't. U.S. government being the example, the vice president can make choices while the president is away, if it is that important.
WOW! Imagine that. Someone being given the ability to do things while the leader isn't available at that time. Wait. Isn't that what a reagent does?
Actually, the idea that a third entity does not control coms on earth is wrong. Any normal phone goes thru normal commercial carrier companies to reach the other end. And it is possible, and does happen, that those very satelites get jammed from time to time. Even the underwater coms lines in the ocean are susceptible to being cut or hacked. It is why security encryption is used as well.
Yes, there are government controlled coms out there. That does not mean it is completely safe, but more secured then others.
The government would fall if the leaders were the only ones to do it all. There is not enough time in a day to order every last thing to be done by one person. Not sure why this has to be said. Most things in a government or even a company is automated, or ordered by others. Only in emergencies is the leader put into a position to deal with things, and even then, they just tell those with the knowledge in the area to fix it.
Power shortage in one area? Tell the department head to deal with it. If they need an ok to send some from elsewhere, then the leader needs to do something. Otherwise, the energy department has plans to deal with it.
The position of a CEO can be very time consuming. But for most, they have their staff dealing with most of the little crap, so they don't have to be bothered.
And yes. CEOs have purposefully harmed the companies they are running. Not often, and most get away with it, as the company tends to go under afterwards, but it happens. Money is the big reason, with plain stupidity being second.
I make 10 mil a year running a company. I will make 120 mil if the company goes under. Do I want to work for this company for 12 years to make that much? As I can work for others making the same, what incentive is there to keep here? I don't own anything, and selling stock will set off the downfall of the company. Most CEOs don't lose money when the company does. Bad negotiations set up by years of CEOs having the say in things.
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Requiem
07/16/22 09:30 PM
1.125.27.60
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Sorry but not all security forces are able to handle rebellions. If the rebellion is being supplied military grade equipment (by a 3rd party for example) the military will be required. Hence the need to judge on a case-by-case basis.
I would also like to point out that the BattleTech Universe has been at constant war for how many centuries thus the military industrial complex must be churning out weapons like candy – hence shouldn’t there be a mass proliferation of weapons?
Also as law abiding citizens how many would belong to home guard – how many worlds would have a law that every house must be equipped with military grade equipment like certain European countries? – and how many worlds have 2nd Amendment issues giving them access to virtually everything – and how many worlds have underground black market factories that churn out vast amounts of heavy weapons for the Revolution to come?
Reasons for why worlds have heavy weapons can be easily manufactured.
Also destroying a city is once again a war crime.
The problem is that once the statement “every world is an industrial island” is made where imports are for “exclusive goods” only this indicates that the world must have its own military industrial complex. If you then factor in globalization / education principles based upon House security factors then it is clear to see that these worlds would then have a quick uptick on available weapons manufacturing – over time as populations / technology increases EVERY WORLD within said House would be able to manufacture every weapons system available from Warships, Dropships, Jumpships, Space Stations, Lunar Bases, BattleMechs, Power Armour, Aerospace fighters plus every conventional weapon system available for said House ….
What this also indicates is that when dealing with high population / high technology worlds – they can also sustain a permanent military in the hundreds of conventional regiments – Hence the problem the clans arrive on these worlds and if they do no commit the majority of / all their entire Touman they are going to take a pounding – also the loss depletion report for both sides is going to be high – so the questions are where are the clans going to get replacement personnel given the small numbers obtained via a sibko system and where are their logistics to replace consumables required over even a short period of time?
Sorry to say but the games idea as to available military units is somewhat (extremely) lacking once you apply basic logic. Thus, vast navies are required to invade these worlds ….
Yes growth does mean incurring costs – however with entering new markets via a globalization strategy it can also mean that your production costs per unit decrease due to decreasing wages costs (3rd world economy countries that have high education / low wages) hence shipping jobs overseas – it also means that with access to a larger target market sales increases – what it also means is access to raw materials (hence why Tesla placed a factory in China to gain access to Rare Earth Metals) - hence increased profits overall and the reason for globalization strategies.
Have a look at the 20-year update-book – how many Regiments does the CC and the DC have in comparison to FC?
The FC can easily transfer 40 Mech Regiments for the destruction of the CC and still maintain border security with both the DC and the FWL.
Also as demonstrated within my Forum it is possible to neutralize the majority of the CC mercenaries – get MoC / DoA involved as well as certain FWL duchies … hence the carve up of CC circ. 3039 would be relatively simple.
It is quite clear that logic dictates that CC is the only viable target circa. 3039.
As for the Bugeye – miniaturization has always been a par of technological development – so can I ask when the Clans can via their weapons, that’s OK but when the Star League is able to do so via a Jump drive that is not allowed - No Really?
They knew it was foolish to invade the IS – and yet they went ahead with he plan and just like every other Clan ran out of available forces way before reaching Terra.
So let me get this straight – only the SLDF knows how to identify pirate points / has maps to them – and yet the people who remained behind for the last couple of centuries have no idea – they have just been operating these ships as a family business / military operation since the time of Star League … so really?
Isn’t this once again creating a Pax Clan scenario? How many complained with a Pax FC and yet with the Clans it is now OK?
Dropships can have all he weapons they want – the problem is hey cannot have the armour at the same time.
Dropships are all well and good when navies are small – but what happens when the Navies of the IS return to SLDF Numbers i.e. in the thousands …. The idea of armoured dropships becomes obsolete … it is just a question of time.
As for a secret base – the operative word is secret. Hence the hidden world principle.
Specifics as to Taxation is important as the taxation on all other products was dropped by the English – the only one remaining was on the importation of Indian Tea – Thus England parliament heard America’s problem and gave them most of what hey waned – and yet the young Americans wanted everything and over reacted rather than going through proper communication channels – like sending a delegation.
i.e. certain Americans wanted a war thus they picked a fight no matter the cost.
Also remember at the time America was still in the Commonwealth and as such the entire Commonwealth needs to / is supposed to pull together to solve an issue that threatens the Commonwealth (i.e. in this case the Easy India Coy.) … and yet as America has constantly adopted / demonstrated an Isolationist approach to world politics everything went pair shaped (just as it has throughout its entire history).
So Ben’s purpose is belittled because he never saw combat and was in France? Really?????
So Katherine now is what a Sadist? And yet when Victor demonstrates he is equally, if not worse that Katherine he remains as the golden child?
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The examples you gave, show Victor was not doing so for gaining more power for himself, but to prevent the nation from suffering far more then it was.
And this is exactly what Katherine was doing … keeping rogue nobles in line, via different methods, to prevent the nation from suffering under their ineptitude.
This is the problem – Katherines methods of maintaining control are difficult to understand and thus, hence, by extension evil and bad … whereas in all reality they are the perfect means of maintaining control over a self-absorbed nobility.
It meant saving billions of lives from oppression without a shot being fired and without a unit being moved to stress the point.
People should be thanking Katherine for adopting these short term pain for long term gain covert policies not condemning her!
Still did not answer the question - 2 days – how far out can you be to reach the capitol world via a command circuit as this is the maximum distance Victor is allowed to travel – also creating a command circuit how much of a disruption will this cause o normal traffic, so does Victor care he is causing problems to world commerce traffic?
(also when Katherine uses Jumpship transport as a means of keeping her Nobility in line it is evil and bad – and yet when Victor does the same thing because he needs to get home quickly to actually do the job he was born to do (Rule the empire) it is still all good and wonderful!!!!!!!
Isn’t this a bit hypocritical at this point?
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Any normal phone goes thru normal commercial carrier companies to reach the other end.
So do you know which carrier the President of The USA uses whist overseas – and what his plan is ?
Do you know how many committee meetings a president / CEO needs to attend to make the policies that directs all her/his underlings to direct them in the way they are proceed with their designated work?
Ans a very large number given all the varied groups that need to be brought together to get any project up and running.
The CEO still needs to understand all the little issues – as little issues can become big issues if not properly understood – Just remember the Housing Crisis and the Toxic Debt issue – everyone ignored the rating system and as a consequence the world ended up in a recession we did not need to have if certain CEOs had not taken their eyes off the process being utilized (that was identified by a couple of external people who became very rich because they noted the CEOs were unaware of what was going on.)
Also look into time value of money calculations …
And at the same time the law of what happens when a company goes bad and the directors can be identified as causing it …. Personal law suits / time in the clink ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 10:54 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is an issue with some of the logic. Even in wartorn areas, military equipment is not something every citizen should have. I say citizen, not militia or military or even security forces. And I do agree not all security forces are equipped to deal with certain threats. There are full military units that are not equipped to deal with certain threats. But on average, given the right training and proper equipment, that doesn't mean mini nukes, can handle most things. That is part of why you have a national guard to increase law enforcement when needed. Having a million man army isn't really required unless there is a known threat. As stated, this is not for border worlds.
Some nations do require some time in the military for all that can serve, with the exception of the rich and powerful. For some, it isn't required past registering for duty if needed. There seems to always be an exception.
The entire succession war is full of war crimes that were never even called out, much less prosecuted. As each nation could not really punish another, it was up to the nation that did it to do things, and in most cases those that did commit it were rewarded by their nation. One of the biggest is the Kentares Massacre.
There is a major issue with the game. All the equipment made, it seems mechs are always limited.
And industrial island is not the same thing as a military excess. You can mass produce a whole lot of things, and not produce a single military item. You might even create most of the parts for things, just not assemble in the area. This would be the case in an area that is prone to revolts. Some cases are there due to the locals not wanting the attention places get for making weapons. The factories outside of Defiance supports this notion. They make part for weapons, but not the weapons themselves.
Back on the everyone should produce weapons of mass destruction again? That can cover mechs in the game as well. You do not want everyone under the sun having access to such weapons. You talk about losing your leadership powers, having everyone produce this stuff is the quickest way to do so.
The only real need for massive navy is moving troops. Most of the worlds in the game are barely defended from invasion forces in space or even atmosphere. Ground based combat is the main fighting. This is part of why recovering warships was not a top priority until the clans showed up. As stated before, there would not be a ground game if you can't reach worlds to invade. I know defending a world without space based defenses isn't logical, but you need to land in order to fight ground combat. Necessary evil comes to mind.
Given the example, moving 40 regiments and hitting the DC with them would remove a huge chunk of the DC threat. This would allow you to take your time removing the smaller threats. It also allows you to secure those worlds better. The quick take and move on means leaving you back open to strikes from partisan units. Removing even 10 regiments from the DC would reduce their strikes on your borders, and create an issue where they have to spread out the remaining units even thinner. Once large assault, followed by several waves of assaults would deal a major blow to the DC.
As the FC could continue this for a while, the DC would be pushed back and have their forces hurting badly. Repairing units isn't that quick, and replacing lost units is that much harder, supposedly. The developers seem to go back and forth on just how many units can be made.
And again, so far only you seem to think the CC is the only logical choice.
The Bugeye was removed because it was illegal to game rules. The miniturizing of components doesn't seem to factor into the game. Warships can use the smaller jump drives, but you can't put one in a jump ship and carry more for less drive.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 11:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Most of the clan leaders did not view the invasion as foolish. They honestly believed their own propaganda of the IS not being able to resist them. Again, the brain washing of their forces said that battles were not long running events, so you could reload in between phases. You did not have to hunt down units, as the clans surrendered a fight instead of wasting their forces most of the time. So much like playing paint ball then thinking you can go into a real battle, they were not trained properly for the IS style of battle.
As the game has pirate points relatively unknown to those living in the IS, it would appear so. As they are mainly used by criminals, and at times, the military, having a complete list isn't really needed. Going by the novels, only a small few of the current population knows where any are. Now it is possible that this information was lost during the clan civil war, or they just don't think it is necessary, they may not have bothered to look up the information. Clans move to challenge and fight, not sneak attack, at least when they first started the invasion.
The ability to shoot at an enemy and they don't have the range to shoot back, why do you really need that much armor? You have to close to engage with me, and I can keep moving back to keep the distance. You are more likely to die before getting in range. There are ships faster then others, so there is some play here, but you come at me with a ship that moves 4/6 and I have a ship that moves 4/6, I can pepper you while coasting backwards, taking shot after shot before you close to fire your shorter ranged weapons. I hit once or twice and not have to worry about you after that. If you do reach me, your little bb gun needs to hit me multiple times before you can kill me. Not so with the naval weapons. Hence, having them put on dropships before the warships were researched would have been the most logical step.
This is the reason for assault dropships like the Avenger, and Achilles.
Also when both sides have thousands, it cancels out the numbers. All those ships being similarly armed, such as naval weapons on one side, and Peashooters on the other, you are more likely to lose the Peashooters. As the longer range weapons take out the other side, that means less targets are present for those with the naval weapons. So more fire on each target.
Secret bases don't normally stay secret when you have a large flow of ships moving in and out of their area. Comstar had the advantage, as they had the ability to blank out coms about their runs.
Missing some history there. The U.S. did send delegations to England to deal with it. The crown wasn't concerned about yet another of their colonies complaining about supporting their war efforts around the world, as well as giving the rich the funds to increase their coffers.
So someone to tell others to stand up and fight, while never seeing a battle sounds like a coward. His getting France to confront the Brittish was nothing small. Just the irony of the statement is off.
Actions done for ones own pleasure is not the same as actions done to protect the masses. Katherine enjoyed hurting others that didn't agree with her. Victor did not. There were more times that Victor did not punish anyone for disagreeing with him. There are a few that did get punished. But it wasn't a pleasant, desirable thing.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 11:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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Not even close. She killed those that didn't agree with her out of spite. It had nothing to do with the nation, as they resisted others and never were killed for it. A few were starting revolts, but yet she encouraged those very ones when it suited her.
Katherine's actions were not difficult to understand. They were straight forward. Do as I say or die.
Suggesting it was noble shows just how little simple logic eludes you. The oppression was the same under Melissa as it was under Victor, because before her death Melissa was running the FC. Not much changed under Victor either. Oh yeah. He was in the field and the government fell apart, or so you would have us believe. Katherine did what she could to harm the realm to make it look like Victor did it.
It is that simple. Whether it was acceptable for nobles to do so or not, it doesn't change the facts. She did it for herself. Maybe the reason you hate Victor is because he followed his fathers foot steps and didn't go down that path.
There is no real answer to how far out the command circuit can go, as it depends on how many jumpships you can get into the circuit. Guess it would also depend on how quickly they can transfer from one ship to the other. A shuttle would be faster then a dropship. So say and hour for each leg, 48 hours in two days, but have to take some time to actually jump, I would think over 24 jumps, maybe even higher. Not sure of how far, as each jump is not consistent, as shown in another thread. Not all jumps will go a full 30 light years in a straight line.
One point you are missing here. The command circuit does not have to be in effect the entire time he is in the field. It can be set up for say once every three months or so. And there is no information on just how many of these circuits are in effect at any one time. The 4th war had several of them to send and receive orders when Comstar was interfering with things.
Might need to remember the last president of the U.S. He DID use his personal phone for government duties. So I think this is the end of that one.
It can't be that many meetings as there are CEOs that run multiple companies with the example of one saying he was CEO of about 500 or so. The president does not have to deal with all of them either. He does get briefed and sends out general orders when needed. He does NOT sit with each and every department every day. Just 10 minutes of each and there is not enough time in the day to do so. And since they do move about doing other things, it shows this concept of dealing with every department is false.
Some of those CEOs created the issues, so they could increase their profits even more without having to deal with legalities. The housing market is a big one. The energy crisis going on now is a huge one. Over 9000 land leases to put up oil rigs, and the oil companies haven't touched a single one. They are complaining they need more leases. The mortgage insurance companies filed for bankruptcy as soon at the market crashed. The billions they made charging everyone to cover this, disappeared that quickly. And the tax payers had to bail them out.
Do you know what drives inflation? Companies getting greedy, and not having to deal with consequences. Prices go up a little, yet they jack up their prices a lot, saying they have to cover for their expenses. Yet they make billions more in profits afterwards.
Profits are what is left over after everything else is paid. This includes getting the resources, processing them, sending them to market and selling them. It also includes transportation, where appicable. So their price increase is times beyond the extra they are paying to provide the product.
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Requiem
07/17/22 08:39 AM
1.125.22.21
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Though military equipment is not something every citizen should have – if easy to acquire, every citizen can gain access (for the usual reason of home defence).
Logic dictates, however, that …
Having a million man army isn’t really required unless there is a known threat – Let’s see, this is the BattleTech Universe in which your great House has been at war with your neighbouring great Houses for the past how many centuries, and in which, for the most part, these wars have been extremely violent and with a high level of damage to infrastructure – So not having a ‘million man army’ can be considered an invitation to an invasion if your world is highly populated, educated and with highly stable and economically productive.
As stated, this should be for EVERY world within your House – As each Lord has a duty to protect their world as best they can, given their available resources. – This is part of the ‘Lord / Liege contract’ a Lord has with their Liege Lord by providing them with a title and with a world to “govern” – a point that has been in existence since the dark ages.
National Service should be considered a given within the majority of Houses (if not all) given the proliferation and duration of wars within the BattleTech Universe. It is a universe built on the assumption that war will break out at any time over the most trivial of slights – and where corporations use mercenaries to remove the competition.
The entire succession war if full of war crimes that were never called out, much less prosecuted – Sorry to say but yes they were – You nuked my city on “X” world thus in retaliation I will nuke the city on your “Y” world and around and around the reprisals goes, where each Lord blames he other for starting the nuclear strikes and if they would stop you would stop. However, his never seems to occur.
This is exactly the same as in all films where the US is attacked, and the military runs through the reprisal strategies available – i.e. it is a proportionate reprisal Ms. President. So, what are your orders – Strike!
All the equipment made is limited – This is probably the biggest and darkest black hole within the game!
Once TPTB say that every world is an island until itself – where Jumpships / Dropship imports are exclusively for the elite – there is a massive problem. Then if your House introduces a Government policy of increasing education / globalization strategy of proliferation of high tech businesses then over a period of time if the world is not invaded this world will become able to manufacture every military product available – including Mechs, Power Armour, Aerospace fighters, Dropships, Jump-ships, Warships etc. as well as all conventional military products. They will also be able to create a vast number of Regiments to protect the world.
Thus the idea that there is a limited number of any weapon system becomes ludicrous – the reverse is true all houses over time are able to create vast military forces with vast transport capabilities as well as vast naval capabilities … the idea of minimal militaries can only be considered a misnomer.
The only real need for massive navy is moving troops
- except for protecting shipping routes
- protecting important worlds
- hunting for hidden worlds
- quick strike group to stop / engage a planetary invasion
- reconnaissance in force
- showing the flag
- repair ships for both civilian and military
Etc.
This is part of why recovering warships was not a top priority until the Clans showed up – and this is why TPTB need someone who can inform them when they are making a horrible wrong call based upon all available information – It is a space based game! i.e. a Space based Navy comes with the package!
The only way you don’t have one is if you have just come out of a massive war and every world and every space station etc is incredibly heavily damaged – thus every House is stuck in a rebuilding phase.
And given the statement that every world is now an island makes this point obsolete!
One large assault – except the game says that you don’t have the transport to undertake this one large assault. Where as if you take the CC 1st you gain their merchant navy (as well as their military industrial complex) and then you do have the transport (as well as additional military units) to undertake this one large assault.
Thus, the CC is the only logical choice (in my opinion).
Oh No a Bugeye is illegal! And yet it is in the book – too late once in it is in – thus it is in my Navy!
Just create your own Home Construction Rules for small ships.
And yes you can put one in a jump ship – mobile repair yards – same as in the Jihad era where they stored their drone ships.
Clan Leaders believing their own propaganda – how did that work out for Nazi forces in Russia?
Yes I agree Clans are only geared towards fighting dules in a set area – they are NOT geared to fighting an all out war IS style utilizing a combined arms approach to warfare.
Really what happens to a trinary when long tom artillery, mass LRMs, mass Armour, VTOLs and conventional fighters all unload on them simultaneously as they move into a kill box?
Can we now re-write the entire invasion due to poorly written plots? (again in my opinion)
The ability o shoot at an enemy and they don’t have the range to shoot back, why do you really need that much armour? You have to close to engage with me, and I can keep moving back to keep the distance.
There is a problem here that was never fixed by TPTB – yes you can say the ship moves at 4/6 – however, when you also can say that the ships takes only “X” days from the world to the Jump point the speed of the ship jumps to an exponential velocity. If the ship can then make micro busts of this speed based upon the same speed required to travel to the jump point a ship should be able to close the distance to practically nothing in less than one turn – and if they can unload with their complete arsenal your dropship will be praying they have more armour just before it becomes a clous of vapour and small particles of metal spinning off in all directions.
Secret bases – first you have to find them as they could be who knows how many light years distant from any habitable world. So how long did it take to find the WoB hidden base worlds – or are they still looking?
Who did the US send to the England Parliament and when?
Are you saying Ben is a coward for going to France as a Diplomat?
Katherine enjoyed hurting others – really? where is this written that she was a sadist? Or is this just personal interpretation based upon personal belief.
A few were starting revolts – where is this written?
Sorry, but it is not that simple – and yes Katherine was doing everything correctly to run her empire.
And yes, Victor is an incompetent ruler who has no place as being the ruler of an empire who continually uses people like objects in his half-baked schemes.
Command Circuit – um what is the distance on field that the shock wave damages everything close? 27 Km as per site below
Also remember time in the jump
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/JumpShip
Potemkin-class Warship jumping 30 light years with a full complement of 25 Dropships would require 375 seconds to complete a jump.
Also, can you emerge with pin-point accuracy so as to enable a very quick turn around with the shuttle? Do not think so!
Thus, the idea this can occur this quickly is reduced considerably – I would also like to say if you can move this quickly why didn’t Kerensky do so when he was told of Amaris’ actions on Terra? he could have placed a considerable army on Terra by the end of a week if this is viable – he had the ships to complete such an action. Hus making him even more incompetent than I even considered possible.
So a permanently created command circuit – how does this affect normal traffic? Afterall the arguments about how few ships there are in the IS wouldn’t this cause a strain on any Houses Jump-ship resources?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/17/22 12:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is an issue with the million man army. We are not talking about guarding a single country, but and entire world. This is something the game does not deal with. Going by land masses, a million men isn't really enough to guard Asia. Without competing governments on a world, the need for them drops dramatically, so this tally is questionable. This is why security forces are the better answer. You would still have a small standing army, but with reserves and nation guard type unit to increase their number when required. Cost saving being the main reason to do so. Again, this is not for front line worlds, but the safer middle of a nation areas.
It is interesting the change of heart about guarding all a realms worlds. You had initially said all forces in one central location as well as keeping them all in one large group. Hopefully this need to try and guard all will help show why some things are done.
Given the quick strike into the FS from the DC in the 1st war, the DC committed so many war crimes, and yet never really paid for it. The same can be said about the invasion of the CC as well. Not to the same scale, but the FC forces did destroy things as they invaded. Collateral damage always occurs. Some was on purpose, and covered by collateral damage, but you will almost always have one unit do things like sack cities, and other crimes. The use of commandos will always result in some sort of crime. It is just never really stated, as ALL combatants use the same methods. Some just go beyond what is needed to get a job done.
Those trained to actually build such systems is part of the low numbers of high tech weapons is a problem. The tech is something that is limited as well. If you have the plans for a mech on every world, there is no way to keep that information from falling into enemy hands. For the game, it was the lack of things like fusion engines that kept mech production low. Yeah, this was a huge hole in the game, especially when they 'moved' away from radioactive resources needed to build them. The description of the engine says the shielding was needed to keep the pilot safe from radiation, which turns out was removed from the game.
So yes. There are major logic issues here.
How many times do you have to tell your military leaders to strike back? Do you have to sit in the office all day long saying yes, you can strike here or there? General orders is set to use prepared levels of response. Everything from make it glow, to only return fire. Each mission or fight is not necessary for the leader to tell them how to respond. You say my trusted general Warhead is in charge. And he makes the call on things. You get briefed, but don't need to be right there.
Protecting systems is an issue. Front lines require more, while the quiet middle systems, not so much. If the enemy has x amount of ships they can attack with, you don't need to have x times x to guard one system. They have to protect their own systems, so are not going to use everything they have. This is why massed fleets aren't in the game. That, and they don't want to prevent the land combat. For an invasion of any world, the majority of the ship will have to be troop transports, if you intend to take and hold the world. Supplies being needed as well, but space wise, war machines take up more space then most supplies. This is for the actual fighting units. Food and water is always going to be needed, as you can not rely on local sources in a combat situation.
With the navy size, I was thinking during an invasion to hold a world. For a nation, you will need more to just run things. So with that added, you would need a sizable navy. What constitutes a huge navy changes with each nation.
Every world is not an island. Even during the SL time, they were not even close. And if they ever were, the large realms would fall apart. Each world would require nothing to keep in part of someone elses control. The warships died out during the succession wars. Once the tech was recovered, it was not a priority, as other issues required the money and resources the project would need, so they put it on the slow burner. Even after the clans, the houses realized they were huge targets that were a waste of money. Yes, even a century after the last succession war, they were still rebuilding that damage, and had more wars of damage being done. Again the excuse of limited resources comes up, but that got old after the Helm Core find. Multiple companies would have started up to collect resources, unless the nobles and company owners stepped in to prevent this. Regulations and limited places you can actually do things like mine comes to mind.
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ghostrider
07/17/22 01:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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They changed the construction rules for Battlespace if I know right. This is why the Bugeye became illegal.
The Yardships were a retcon to the original game which did what retcons seem to do. Destroy the 'rules' that are in place, and having to introduce rules that were completely contradictory to the old ones. They could not just recall all the copies of the books that had the Bugeye in them, so they just said it is not legal.
The Jihad showed just how much the rules didn't mean much to the developers. They broke so many of their own rules to get that out, but we all seem to agree that this time frame is crap or worse.
Many people have rewritten the game story. So far, only a small few have stated that theirs is the only one that can be possible. Most offer their view on some sort of website so all can read without pushing it. As stated before, most players don't need the backstory to play the game. The dice rolls change even historical scenarios, as well as change in tactics.
So many what if's can happen in a dice game. Hanse defending NAIS during the 4th war. An ac 20 to the head could well have killed him. The thru armor crit could well have taken out any 'hero' unit when they were trying to escape or even during the opening shots of a battle. It may be historical battle, but something like that changes the story line dramatically.
So do you replay it, in order to keep it close to canon? Doubtful, though some would just to try other things.
You have two ships that move the same. With in space, you can move one direction and face another. I have a weapon that shoots 3 times yours. You have to go full thrust in order to try and close the gap quickly, while me facing you means I can not use the thrust, as the thrusters are facing away from you. Which is ok. I will still get several volleys on you before you can even get into your long range. Do you see where this is going? Law of averages, suggests I will hit you at least one with a weapon before you can properly engage. I do not have to come to you.
A land example of this would be I have an Alacorn tank, while you have a Demolisher. For you to fire, you have to be within 9 hexes. I have a range of 25. You are faster then I am, yet you will not close range for a few rounds. What are the chances that I can take you down before you can even fire? To hit rolls do have a lot to play here but then we are talking about weapons that are not instant kill without a crit.
The big issue with the supposed long tom batteries being every where is the problem. If there were so many, then normal land battles would not work assaulting any position where they reach. Even smaller artillery is not that common. Yes, another flaw in game logic, but one I can agree with. If artillery was as common as even a jeep is, then assaults on areas would fail far more often. The idea that a ship could land within their range and live long enough to unload their units, much less load them back up, would not happen. The ship would be reduced to smoldering rubble quickly. Hot dropping mechs is possible, but loading them back up requires the ship to land.
There is only so many places you can jump to within range of a jump point. Deep space has to have some things to allow the ship to come out of their jump. That is unless the developers changed that rule. So before the Jihad, 30 light years is max. It might take a while, but you can find it thru normal means. There is only so many things that fit this criteria. Yes, you can use a deep space jump to use to jump to another position. That complicates things.
The WOB crap was magic being used to create a new threat. The fact that Comstar didn't know about those worlds, nor does it seem the RoTS, which had the data from Terra. It is also unlikely those left over from WOB were never caught and interrogated, if the worlds are still hidden. Which in itself is bs. The realms would have been scouring the worlds near Terra to find them. Technological treasure trove would not allow them to ignore it. SO yeah, another logic hole.
I am saying that for someone to extoll people to stand and fight, while they never saw battle sounds like a coward. Ben did what he needed to in order to free the U.S. It just seems hypocritical. As I said earlier there are other ways to support the fight for freedom other then combat itself.
Every time she punished others for defying her wishes, she enjoyed it. The satisfaction of forcing people to bow to her helped fuel her need for power. Deity syndrome.
The Skye region is well known for starting revolts, for one. The FRR when part of the DC was another. The FWL is full of regions that were revolt areas. Even smaller worlds went into revolt, like a few Comstar started during the 4th war. It was suggested the local Comstar rep was at fault, and they moved that person to a new location. The game does not mark all of them with their own story, but does refer to them in passing.
The worlds near the CC had their gangs start revolts. They may not have been large or even popular, but they did happen.
Doing everything correctly? Is that why the huge wave of support for her crushed Victors forces? Oh wait. That didn't happen. So many units remained neutral in the civil war, as well as the population not getting that involved in it.
So no. She did not do things correctly.
Wow. Katherine used people in even worse ways, and yet you say Victor was the demon. Katherine would have done far worse if she was in charge. In fact, she did far worse when she did get control.
So say and hour for each leg, 48 hours in two days, but have to take some time to actually jump,
So again, you didn't read the response. See where I said some time to actually jump. It is there.
Travel time for the shuttle is figured in the estimate as well. Not perfectly, but it is mentioned.
So 7 minutes to jump the Potemkin.
Each space hex is 5k, so 10 minutes to transfer the shuttle is more then enough time. One minute to launch, maybe 2 minutes in flight, with another minute to land, with a little extra thrown in.
The game has constantly implied you can make a pin point jump. Fleets moving together do so, as they do not collide with each other and remain in position during the jumps. Any system with a station is easier to set up as well. The stations position is known, so you can have even more hard data to perform the jump.
Since there isn't much to suggest they can't, I will go with the can.
Really? Why didn't Kerensky use a command circuit to get a fleet of ships to Terra? A single shuttle with the jumpships waiting is one thing, but moving a fleet of ships including warships is entirely different. And if you are going to suggest Kerensky return to earth without his forces, you might as well stop talking.
Scout Jumpships can be used for a command circuit. One dropship. How do you get a considerable force on Terra with that? Think a little before responding.
And do you think Amaris wasn't looking for such a circuit?
So now you see why sending all those FS forces to the clan border was not possible? The 4th war, probably had more ships tied up in the command circuit then actually transporting troops and supplies. Also as stated, and seemed to be ignored, the circuit for Victor did not have to be constant. Simply set up once in a while. Part of why he couldn't make it back for the funeral. The circuit was not ready to go. The circuit could well have been planned for every 3 months.
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Karagin
07/17/22 07:01 PM
70.118.172.64
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See, you should be able to put a warship drive on a civilian ship, or a decommissioned warship will be sold off to someone for use as a merchant vessel at some point, or the same vessel sold to a planet as part of their attempt to keep raiders away.
Pinpoint jumps can happen; the issue becomes how long it will take to recharge and how much of a chance you have of slamming into a planet or other object in the system. Again, BT's idea of jumping into a system vastly differs from other systems. For example, WH40K has fixed jump points or gates; YET, if you are willing to use blood magic and pay a very high price, you can open portals or holes in the elliptical plain and drop in from there. Again there is risk involved, and it might not even work given what you are dealing with in that setting.
Star Wars has some things where if you don't follow the correct route into a system, you might come out of hyperspace in an asteroid belt or, worse, the middle of a star. So for that system, knowing the fixed, well-traveled routes is key, yet smugglers know that some systems have other ways in or out and can use those. Then there is Dune, and you need Spice to do the space travel thing, so that really doesn't apply. Star Trek, they just speed up or slow down as needed, now really effort there. Since we never really see them have an issue with getting a good set of coordinates to go to. I don't recall an episode that they had where they entered XYZ and ended up in the LMN system instead.
Also, each of the above has different ways once in system as where the ships come out at, BT has their ships near the local star, the others have them IN the system, either close to the planet they want to get to, or a few AU away, say at most a week of travel of time. All but BT allow warships or jumpable craft to orbit planets, whereas BT only allows Warships, and even then, that is not always a hard, fast-fixed rule.
Ships like the Bug-Eye sounded great as fluff for TPTB only, same with nukes and other uber tech items, but then players wanted to overuse them or build them in hundreds, and thus the system broke because no one who was original coming up with them thought anyone would be really wanting to use warship or ECM ships. ECM has always been a misunderstood item in the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/17/22 10:27 PM
45.51.181.83
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Star Wars is even more precise, as the entire fleet comes in without ever hitting another ship. The few times hyperspace was used to ram another ship was just as it was about to enter hyperspace. The one ship bouncing off the ISD in Rogue 1, and the other being the first order ship having a chunk cut off.
The recharge times and even position when using a pirate point is very important. Getting in, does not mean you will be able to get back out. Planets move. It may be a month before the moon around Terra moves back into a position to allow you to jump back out.
If discussing the command circuit, the recharge time is not important, as you are handing off a shuttle to a waiting jumpship. Only if you don't have a charged ship in the destination system does it matter. And yes. Command circuits are a huge waste of jumpships.
I have recently watched some of the videos for Star Wars the the hyper jump lanes. It explains a lot on why ships didn't jump straight to where they were going, and why reinforcements take so long to get to places. It also shows why some systems were necessary to hold, to prevent further issues.
The Bugeye was a problem, as it was smaller then most jumpships. At 6100 tons it is smaller then a few dropships. Which would make people suggest that jump drives should be on dropships as well. Land on worlds, get out far enough and jump. This destroys the need for jumpships to be honest. It also destroys the warships can't land on planets rule. The light naval ppc on it doesn't help the game much either. This is very much a pocket warship, and shows that you can put naval weapons on smaller ships. Given the fluff of a small jump signature, it is possible to jump into systems and they never knew you were there.
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Karagin
07/17/22 10:46 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am all for Jumpdrives on Dropships...but then again, I have never been a big fan of the limited jump tech BT uses since it is never held to the same standards by each author. Certain groups always get plot armor, or certain writers forget how things work in their novels to move along the story.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/17/22 11:11 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Bugeye made sense in that it was a specialized warship, built for a single role, espionage. It mimiced other dropships, so it could enter a system, move around like those vessels do its job of spying, and then when it needs to leave, or wait for an SLDF jumpship to come in the system, beam the information to it or move towards it as any dropship would, and then jump right before or right after the waiting jumpship thus no one knows what happens.
The whole idea is not to be noticed. Thus it's small and right there, but it's not. Is that a fishing trawler, or is it an enemy intel ship listening to coastal naval and shipping traffic and watching how ships come and go from the local naval base, or is it just a harmless trawler? The idea is not a new one; the problem was and is the rules weren't set up for the type of vessel that had been put out in TRO2750.
Now, either the Bugeye was missing a zero or two on its' final weight, and we had a typo from the start, or the weight was correct, and the fluff was correct, and the idea was to have a specialized class of warships that were VERY limited in a role and usage/availability, One that none of the Houses would admit to having and the Star League would deny as well. None of which would have made it through the fighting to take out Amaris so that it would have been a boondoggle-type vessel that was more myth and such than reality. Which is what I think they were going for. However, players being players went, " Oh, look, loophole, and the power games went crazy, " and folks like my ALT is better than canon can't seem to understand that the ship wasn't meant for widespread use. In fact, NONE of the warships were.
We hear about the PTB getting together, and we have seen videos of them on YouTube having their conversations and talking about their planning secessions and such, and I am really starting to believe that things break because some of them want their cake and to eat it as well. Egos and such get in the way.
Could the BugEye work in the game? Sure it can. Can it work as written in TRO2750? No, mot in the current version of Battletech and its current rulesets.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/17/22 11:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of having jump drives on drop ships is something that would make the game more interesting. The problem is it would be a night mare for the developers, as the limited jumpships means you can't just go from one capital to another without sticking with the vulnerable jumpships.
As dropships are not so limited in numbers that can be built, invasions are more likely to happen, and guarding jump points becomes even more of a threat. No longer do ships need to dock/undock to another ship, making them that much more vulnerable during the initial or end phases of an invasion.
It would also make communications about invasion fleets that much easier, as any ship in space that sees the invasion fleet could potentially jump out and warn others about it.
Which might actually be something to look at for a campaign. The Argo was bagged on since it could stack a second drop ship on it, imagine what dropships with jump drives would do. I like it.
The lack of resources has been found to be crap as an excuse for the limited numbers of units, something like this would completely ruin that concept. Pirate points form all over a system, can you imagine how much easier it would be to mine asteroids, then jump to a refining station in another system and not have to wait for room on the limited ships with jump drives? If done right, you could jump within a days flight to the world you wanted to, and land at the facility. No more ability to hit supply convoys near a jump point.
All worlds would need heavy defenses from ships, as this would stop the border concept. Ships could jump in basically undetected, and move deeper into enemy territory.
Granted, this becomes a nightmare for all when programmed ships like the SDS are used to send nukes to any world.
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Karagin
07/18/22 12:18 AM
70.118.172.64
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It would change the game's scope and mean that a power like the Star League would need to move forces around more to deal with any threats. The Houses must be ready for attacks all over their controlled space sectors. And it would not be easy to stop invasions.
I think it would have changed the Star League into a separate power outside of the Terran Hegemony's control and into one of its own power base itself. How that would genuinely work, well, I am not sure, but I doubt it would stand for being forced to hold itself in check to the Terran government when the Houses are breaking all the rules, etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/18/22 08:50 AM
1.147.107.173
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Million-man army – first, you do realise that it can be made up of regulars and reservists and second, the term ‘million-man’ is just used to elucidate that it is a ‘sizeable’ military brigade (it is not that every world can and will actually field a million men – some will be more and others less – however all will be of a considerable armed force), and yes the overall size is determined based upon each worlds wealth.
However, I will say that I would postulate this principle should be for ALL WORLDS - this is the BattleTech Universe where deep strikes can occur at any time – hidden worlds should be considered a standard regularity to hold vast raiding forces – every world is an island unto itself, where the leader of your realm should have implemented a policy of education / globalization, creating a world that can manufacture all military requirements – thus turning all worlds into targets.
Sorry but it was never me who postulated to place all forces into one location – perhaps misconstrued about how to defend against the clan invasion – to win by attrition?
ALL combatants use the same methods – sorry but no, not all combatants use the same methods, some are more honourable, who stick to the rules of war.
Depends on the units commander – do they let them off their leash or holds it taught.
Then why build a military industrial complex if your scared of your enemy gaining this knowledge – they too would have an equal number of plants on every world so the point is if you remain scared all that will result in is your side loosing the war! In all reality once he statement all worlds are islands to themselves is adopted – so too every world has the ability to manufacture EVERY piece of military hardware available!
Rules of Engagement and the use of appropriate force have been drilled into all personnel during basic training and for officers and senior officers during to ensure they understand the rules / ethics behind them … Weapons Hold; Weapons Tight; and Weapons Free.
Warships
Important worlds maintain a permanent navy garrison
Others usually have a ready reaction group that can be called upon to jump at a moments notice to protect multiple worlds
Those on the front lines will also incorporate patrol vessels / reconnaissance vessels etc
Also, I highly dispute the idea that warships could ever die out – in a space warfare system it should be SOP to hide your large warship production and R&D facilities in very secure hidden systems … after all in a space opera the warship is the King of the battlefield and must be treated as such.
Every world is NOT an island – and yet I remember in one of Cray’s recent responses to us he stated as much. Thus, once stated logic dictates that everything that went before in the game is now in a massive black hole.
Not to mention that many of the dropship classes need to be re-evaluated and to be assigned to specialist roles.
Yes every navy with regards to every house should be different – all houses should also adopt their own basic design different form others based upon what they view a navy vessel to represent.
Bugeye – they may say it is illegal, yet I will keep it in my game … once the developers change the rules for themselves why should I keep to their rules? If WoB are allowed massive new R&D why cant all the houses also have massive new R&D equipment?
Artillery – why would any military purposely restrict the numbers manufactured? Also where are the ground based naval weapons to defend important cities / facilities from an orbital attack.
Logic seems o have taken a detour many times throughout the game.
She enjoyed it – sorry I did not read this when I read all the civil war books … I have a different interpretation.
In the running of her government – I still say she did everything correctly – many Lords require a firm hand to ensure they are doing their job.
She did far worse when she did get control – um, Victor started a war with the FWL, what was worse than this?
Command circuit – OK if I agree can someone still explain why Kerensky didn’t use this method to get back to Terra and Invade with a massive navy and land force asap – as this was his job after all?
All he had to do was place his ships along multiple command circuits from all Great Great Houses then transfer the best units from one ship to another then jump – really how hard would this have been? He could then order all ships to jump after they had recharged thus reinforcements can be calculated to arrive along a designated time frame to continually fight against Amaris on Terra utilizing a war of attrition approach
- How hard is it to create and execute this?
Sorry but if you can use all the forces during the 4th War then you can most definitely use all these forces and more and send them to the clan front – some with command circuits and others with normal time jumps.
This is why I still state that the IS could have created a war similar to the Italian WW2 campaign.
Yes I agree old warship ships, when decommissioned, should be retrofitted – however I would go with cruise liners if I had a choice.
Bug-eye in the hundreds – yes there should be, why? pre HPG communication can only be completed by ship – thus having small communication ships that jump from one system to the next to deliver the mail as it were must be a given when you consider the size of IS at this point in time – the question is post HPG what happened to all these ships – my bet the rich and powerful purchased many – pirates / smugglers who deliver small yet highly portable goods pinched a few, many could have ended up in naval academies and that is just a few locations that should be considered.
For me Jump Ships should be much, much, much bigger than those in the game – as the ships need to be massive in order to explain the colonization of space – sorry but the dinky toys the TPTB suggest just don’t work when colonization of planets are being completed by billions of people, animals and cargo for them all …
As for us ALT people – we recognise that this is a space opera – hence warships are mandatory not optional.
Problem – attacking a world should be incredibly difficult and it should require mass fleets with a vast number of regiments to undertake simultaneous attacks all over the planet.
Sorry but this mickey mouse version of a planetary assault just doesn’t work for me.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/18/22 12:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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More then a few posts had no units guarding targets, and all being sent out in large numbers from a central location. But I guess that was forgotten.
The discussion seemed to end when travel time was brought up, and by the time a central location hub could get things into position, any raiders would be at a new one, or another set striking on the other side of the hub.
So not all units use explosive, or just spray shots all over? In a fire fight, there is always some collateral damage. And there will always be someone to claim war crimes. Commanders are not the only ones that can prevent their troops from doing things beyond what is necessary. This starts with each trooper, as at times, the commander is the one that orders the extra destruction. As shown in todays world, that can go up and include the leader of a nation as well.
First off, the assumption that the enemy will have as many complexes as you do is wrong. Some will have more, others less. And the numbers isn't the same thing as total output. Hundreds of small plants making several parts of a weapon isn't better then a few making the entire weapon.
So you need more forces guarding more facilities, to prevent the enemy from learning your new secret weapon, as each plant would have those plans in order to build it. It also means having to send resources to all of them, as you are not going to have them all sitting on iron, copper, cobalt, and other minerals as those ores do not form one huge deposit together.
Several larger complexes has it's own problems. A single large missile strike harms production easier then having to send multiple strikes to spread out facilities.
But in the end, the less numerous but large complexes are a bit easier to protect against sabotage and stolen data then lots of smaller ones.
Not all units are trained the same. Some will be taught to hold fire when approaching a suspected target, while others will be taught to just shoot up the target, with 'suppression' fire. Some are taught not to shoot everyone, while others are taught to shoot anyone that resists. Both real life and the game has this.
First thing is, this is not a space game. So warships should have remained dead.
Second, the use of warships is limited by how many you have.
It is very possible for warships to stop being repaired or produced. Resources and ship yards that can actually make them being heavily damaged or destroyed does this.
Most hidden things are found eventually. When they are, do you pack it up and move it? Or continue to use the facilities?
The responses given suggest you build a new one and stop using the old one.
I don't remember Cray saying anything like 'recent responses to us he stated as much. Thus, once stated logic dictates that everything that went before in the game is now in a massive black hole.'
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ghostrider
07/18/22 12:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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Each house has different dropships they produce, so they have to have a different navy then each other.
As the FS had the RCTs, they used more vehicle carrying dropships then the others. I have not heard much of the CC using vehicle dropships for assaults. They seem to be moving reinforcements. And if I recall, only the DC and CC build the Achilles. The Vengeance is limited as well.
Which make me wonder why the FS did not design a new fighter carrier to help move the fighters of the RCTs, as they only have the Leopard CV and normal space on Unions and Overlord otherwise.
Given the game has 'limited' resources, the houses focused on more mobile items of war. Yes, it is a bit stupid, but artillery positions are a bit easier to destroy, and can't be moved. Things like mounting them in the sides of hills prevents them from firing in other arcs. They are great for slow moving things, but a lance of Locusts are almost impossible to hit if they know artillery is being used. Constant course changes comes to mind. Removing and preventing building such is why raids are so common.
Victor started the war with the FWL? Did you not read where Katherine thought the idea was a good one, though poorly executed? Operation Gemini was always a risk. So are dozens of other operations going on around the IS. This one was found out because it was a plot item. It isn't like Thomas was innocent of anything against the FS/FC. And given what happened, all knew Joshua was not going to live. It was the right choice. The entire idea was to let the 'replacement' pass and tell Marik about the death. Otherwise, the entire refit packs was in danger, which meant the front lines were in danger of losing to the clans. Which is worse? You seem to suggest one child is worth the lives of every world in the path of the clans.
I did answer why Kerensky did not use a command circuit to get warships to Terra. But I guess something needs to be taught. A warship does NOT connect to normal jumpships and has to perform their own jumps. So this method is NOT applicable here. He could have used a command circuit to get some forces into a staging area near Terra, which was probably happening, but the danger of them being hit, once found out was great. Given all that was going on, the question of how many 'spare' jumpships were left that werent' conscripted by the armies.
Dpending on the jumpship type, 1 to 9 dropships per jumpship. And the type wouldn't be consistent. As I have not seen other designs beyond the Monolith, I will stop at 9. So one jump might have a monolith, while the next could only get a scout in position. So 1 dropships goes, while the other 8 wait for another ship. And when you get into the TH area, you can not allow a small force to be sent in every so often, as they will be destroyed, and Amaris would seize the jumpship to prevent another try.
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ghostrider
07/18/22 01:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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As explained with why Kerensky didn't use the command circuit to get forces to Terra quickly, the idea of a command circuit bringing in tons of forces to the clan border is similar. Each jumpship is different. What you propose is sending so many jumpships into the LC portion from the FS, and there is no return trip for them, it would destroy the FS ability to do much in their area.
The CC would definitely use this fact to start raiding at the least, to trying to retake worlds with the TC and others at worst. Until the DC showed it was focused on the clans, you could not remove forces from the DC border. And that did not mean that others in the DCMS would not strike at the FC either. Pirates would have a field day if all the forces you wanted, were moved from the FS. And as pointed out, each nation had their own military operations. The FS sent troops to guard the LC, but yet they were different commands. Nondi did not want more FS troops in the LC. It meant having to actually listen to the FS commanders as well as Hanse.
Problem with the Bugeye being used as a courier. They were a spy ship. The existence being denied. Having a new ship, or even using a scout jumpship would have been a better plan for that. Having the Bugeye exposed to being in an area would really make people nervous and even fire at the ship. It didn't exist according to the governments statements.
You do realize that colonizing worlds was not just uplifting cities worth of people and plopping them down on a new world? A few hundred would go out to start a new colony, while others filtered in with each supply run. It would take decades to get several million onto a world. Also, it is hinted that some of the ships used were grounded and used for parts once there. So a class or two of colony ships was possible where they carried large amounts of people, and were stopped being produced after a while. Imagine a Behemoth set up to transport colonists. The Monarch is a star liner.
Us alt people? You are including everyone that uses an alt.
I know for a fact, more then a few alts don't operate on the space opera theme.
This sort of statement is what causes the rehash of only viable solution statements coming back. The group I play with have several different campaigns with are all considers alts to each other. Warships are NOT the main focus. Most have a small amount, maybe 2 dozen spread among the big houses, and they are barely noticed. They guard the capital worlds and that's about it. The clans pulled their ships back as the home worlds were starting to hit the invading clans.
So no. Alt people do not consider the game a space opera.
The reason why the game does not have thousands of regiments available is to keep the game playable for small groups. You will not be able to run even company on company with large reserves or forces nearby that could influence the players battles. You are assigned to take a town. Forces are fighting around the area. You want to suggest that they stalemate each other all the time? Does the winning forces have reinforcements for your battle? Does the impossible happen, and all forces are so badly damage that HQ recalls them instead of having them help the forces on your battle field? Does this sound like a logic hole?
How often do you play with just vehicles on both sides? As most don't use vehicles as a primary unit, I would think never.
Yet for invading a world, vehicles are the most likely unit to be used. As for a space opera, the winning warships would definitely be used to bombard enemy forces. There is no retreat options for a defender, and I doubt the attacker will admit defeat if they can just blow up the enemy military forces from orbit. Yes, this is the logic that would be used.
With the games set up, it is possible to take a world without having regiments worth of assault troops. Holding one requires a lot of infantry. There is a difference.
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Karagin
07/18/22 05:48 PM
70.118.172.64
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What war with the FWL? Victor didn't start any war with anyone. Is this another case of the ALT trying to be canon? Can we stick to canon, please?
The entire FWL attack on the Fed-Com should never have happened, mainly because the fake Thomas would have known he was on the verge of being exposed and that Victor wasn't doing the exposing should have told him something. Yet, Victor attacked first?
Warships being around should not have affected the game to the point of breaking it, but the idea that everyone could have them did. I can see ComStar has a few, and, in essence, WoB has some, and when I say a few, I am talking like maybe ten or so max. The idea of the Dragoons having them...yeah, as much of a fan of them as I am, no. They should have never had them. Now the pocket battleship, aka the capital weapons armed dropship thing, yeah, I could ALL the Houses and such having those things. And some merc units like the Dragoons have them.
Same issues as above, the warships and how they move in the system are concerned. Most want to treat them as flying mechs, which is how the aerospace fighters were first shown and how it was for the warships. Yet we have how thick of a book of rules just to get a simple space battle done? They went from cool to pointless because of the overly complex rules.
Bovine excrement is the idea of things before a certain real-time or when certain Line Developers took over being a black hole. That is more of certain persons not liking things and what to removed from the game. An example would be myself finding a way to buy the game from TOPPs, (not going to happen) and retconning out the entire Jihad/Dark Age crap. Why? Because I don't like the plot/storyline and thus want it gone.
I personally have run an all-vehicle force to prove that such can bring down an all-mech force. It can, and the other person was shocked. Again, the biggest issue with this game is that many players do not know how to use the mechs, vehicles, or other units correctly. They want to play Rock'em Sock'em Robots, not a tactical wargame. The game is a a tactical wargame, not a WWE game with mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/18/22 06:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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The FWL attack on the FC being caused by operation doppleganger is what Requiem is trying to use as the reason the FWL did so. Yet during this time, I did not hear of the refit kits being stopped from being made or sold to the FC. This woul d have been one of the first things to happen if it was a true retaliation. And as stated, all knew Joshua was going to die. It was only a matter of time.
It was plot armor as well. The situation for Katherine to finally make her move to take over the FC.
No matter what someone might think, the regions in the FWL would not all agree to the war. Some, maybe most, would see it as a way to remove Marik from running the FWL, and allow a new family. It is best that the other regions never got a hold of Joshua's DNA, as they would have exposed the deception. Which some how never played out. Favoritism would be what someone would cry.
The big issue with warships is one that hasn't played out yet. They are vulnerable to fighters.
Later versions started to counter this, but they are big expensive targets. They are much like the Death Star. Something to try and inspire fear, but are hard to use, as the damage they do causes all to regret building them.
If the SDS system types were not banned until the Jihad, this would have been a better concept of defending at least specific worlds. Small stations scattered around a world or the main approach, and activated only during that time. They should be left on standby with very low power, so they aren't detected.
Basic capital missile launcher satellites around a world, or in some Lagrange spots. Yes, they are ammo dependent, but you don't need the heatsinks or high power to use them. Even suicide drones full of explosive would work. But again, this is a ground combat game, so they had to be kept out.
Personally I have run vehicles with mech support. I have not completed a pure vehicle run. I tend to use non jumpers, which causes issues at times. Always seem to be one spot out from cover using them. Normally from losing initiative a few times in a row. Go for some woods, and the enemy makes it there first. Or makes it worthless.
I had tried once the pure vehicles, and the crit monster made sure that was pointless. A single LRM taking out a major tank with the first hit, then losing the second one to something similar. After losing a lance like this, I gave up.
That is not saying using mechs were always better. Head shots and losing a gyro or engine thru bad rolls have happened a little too often.
Do I say they need to be pulled? For vehicles I did. That was before I seen the new crit tables.
For mechs? No. There is always a weak spot in the best armor. It bites when it happens to you, but I have won a few tough battles with the same thing. Head hit the nastiest mech on the field, or take out a gyro while they had plenty of armor. Luck of the dice.
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Karagin
07/18/22 09:48 PM
70.118.172.64
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The game also has dropships that can't even land on planets, so they are no better than jumpships or warships. I can see armored space stations or simple weapons platforms at specific points to keep the enemy from taking complete control of a system or even a jump point. Hey, nothing says anti-ship weapon like a capital naval weapon in space in a cheap platform that can spread out on known vectors and fire till destroyed.
What new crit table for vehicles? Can you give me a book and page number, please?
Requiem is still arguing from his ALT. Victor ONLY kept Operation Dopplerganger in place because he knew his military needed the extra conversion kits and mechs. He also knew that many merc units working for the Fed-Com and the Combine were refitting from the same kits being shipped out from Marik factories. It is stated in the novels that he had plans to let the fake Thomas know Jousha had passed and was planning on doing so. It is as if Stackpole deleted or something was edited out of the novel that removed a big change from Marik attacking over the death/doppelganger part and how it was given to us in the novel. It makes one question if the editors didn't cut something and no one caught it in time...then again, this was ROC and FASA so...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/18/22 10:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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The crit table where 1/2 the crits killed vehicles, was changed to something a little less hostile. It was talked about in another thread. I have BMR as the last rule book which still had the engine explosion, crew hit and killed, ammo explosion (crew killed) set up. The 'new' one isn't as hostile. Sorry if this made it sound like something that just came out.
The whole thing with Victor is he hates the fact that Katherine is a major villain in the game, and Victor isn't. It is yet another attempt like Kerensky not rushing in to die right after he found out Amaris killed the Camerons. It almost seems like he wants the worst characters to rule the game universe, while those fighting him are the demons and devils of the story.
I agree and have stated that Victor was going to tell Thomas about Joshua, but needed time to keep his people safe. Had he not done so, then he would be chastised for not keeping his people safe, and praising Katherine that way. This is following his posts, not speculation like he would try to argue. But sounding like the game does not point this out, confuses people into thinking the way he wants. But trying to say keep the alt out of this has an issue. It was started by him and he did it from the alt point of view. As much as he needs to put up or shut up, the topic does contain the alt.
The Behemoth is the only dropship I know of that doesn't have the thrust to get back into space if it lands. The rest are just not built to be able to, that can't. Unless I missed something.
I honestly think fighter carriers should have jump drives on them. They can't land, and would be needed far more often to defend a world then mechs or vehicles. The reason is if you can prevent anything from landing, you don't need more troops on world.
The concept of remote weapons platforms is probably a big reason why the developers don't want remote control to be in the game. It reduces the small group raiders and such.
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Karagin
07/18/22 11:29 PM
70.118.172.64
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I just checked Total Warfare, and it's not improved at all for vehicles; they are still nerfed when hit. Hell, it got worse with the Motive System Hit Damage Table. p193/194 for ground vehicles, and then they give you new charts for VTOLs on the next couple of pages. So they didn't make it any better.
I thought there were two dropships, the Behemoth and the Mammoth, that could not re-enter orbit if they landed. I need to recheck the books.
Katherine was there a foil for Victor since Phelan had Vlad; Victor had to have someone who wasn't the newly favored Combine and CapCon, since both had been beaten on in the run-up to the Clan Invasion. He can dislike it all he wants, it's not going to change things. Just like my dislike of the entire Jihad/Dark Age storyline means nothing to TPTB since they don't give a damn about what the fans want. I dare any of them to prove me wrong on that. Because if they did, certain folks would have dealt with back in the late 90s early 00s who were buddies of the TPTB at the time, but friendships and all that won out. And we all have heard about the comments made by Stackpole over the fans not being happy about the Jaguars. I could go on, but that horse has been beaten to death. He needs to get over his issue with Katherine being a villain.
Remote weapons in space would not be a game-breaking item. They would be a counter to things like warships and their overuse of them. No different than the SDS stuff. Given how I have seen the "drone" mechs used in the fiction of late, as battering rams to go after other mechs, the game is going right back into the crapper of Rock'em Smash'em Robots.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/19/22 12:31 AM
45.51.181.83
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The Behemoths thrust is the issue, though the fluff says it just can't. As the rule is minimum 3 regular thrust is needed to achieve orbit should be enough. The 3 thrust may well have been changed in later rule books, which might include Battlespace or aerotech 2. I don't have either of those books.
The Mammoth in the wiki doesn't say it can't land. But things have been changed and not updated.
All dedicated fighter carriers of the IS, as well as the Achilles can not land. No wings on the aerodyne form. This is not counting those ships that are changed over from others.
Just looked it up. The Okinawa is a spheroid fighter carrier that can land. Part of the TRO 3057 release.
Remote weapons for anti ship duty, could be an issue if warships are not in play. They can target dropships, which means not landing forces for the ground battle. It could be added that they can not target the dropships but that is pushing it a bit.
A weapon that might be interesting to be developed would be the EMP to knock out power to ships. Maybe a large missile like a Killer whale size in order to work properly. Not permanently, and with something like a warship, just a section, as they have the different power nodes. Might make warships less likely to be used, as it would help whomever uses it the chance to board it without return fire for a short while. Or even just make the ship defenseless as no return fire or defensive measures could happen on the section hit. Yeah, should be in the design section, but thought about it here, and too lazy to do it there.
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Cray
07/19/22 07:56 AM
136.226.19.182
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Quote:
The Mammoth in the wiki doesn't say it can't land. But things have been changed and not updated.
The Mammoth can land. The Behemoth's inability to land is a class-specific quirk; you could build a 100,000-ton DropShip with 3/5 thrust (or higher) that could land.
Quote:
All dedicated fighter carriers of the IS, as well as the Achilles can not land.
The Inner Sphere's Leopard CV, Titan, Gorgon, and Okinawa fighter carriers are able to land, as can the Clans' Miraborg.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
07/19/22 09:14 AM
1.147.89.229
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… being sent out in large numbers from a central location … sorry but I don’t remember this., when discussing hub and spoke arrangements I thought I was discussing colonization from a central hub planet to those planets withing a spoke arrangement surrounding it. Though (in my opinion) this can also apply to a naval garrison complemented with multiple rapid strike squadrons.
In a fire fight there is always some collateral damage … er, no, depends on location of the ambush – i.e. in an ambush your survivability depends upon the inadequacy of your attackers.
Given the number of camera’s that are on the Battlefield you would think individual war crimes would be minimalized – i.e. gun camera, drone camera, individual soldier camera (Aliens)
Number of military industrial complexes on a world-to-world basis is dependent upon each world’s … population, education, technology base, economic level etc.
All of which will also determine the size and complexity of the military (available weapon systems) on that world.
And the distribution of the military upon that world.
I would also like to point out that given this is a space opera you would assume that ‘the majority of’ military industrial complexes would be located far below the ground.
As for sabotage, this is dependent upon each military industrial complexes security procedures – and again given that most of the Houses have been at war for hundred’s of years you would think they have the ability to create a highly effective security system and team.
Yes, I agree not all units are trained the same – dependent upon their designated role within battle.
This is not a space game … sorry but if war is conducted upon hundreds of worlds where units have to travel via space craft from A to B how can this not be a space opera? Thus Naval craft have no choice but to be included.
I don’t remember Cray saying anything like ….
Forum Title: QUESTION: The Effects of Economic Isolation on Clan Territories
Date: 10/14/21 06:21 AM
“The important remaining interstellar trade were vital, small quantity goods like ‘Mech parts. Otherwise, planets mostly stood alone.”
Q.E.D. If a planet sands alone, with no real importation, they must be totally self-sufficient for everything.
Then once you factor in a government that includes a policy of education and industrial globalization each world has the ability to manufacture a vast array of military capabilities.
Sorry to say but I find each houses Dropships capabilities – Lacking especially with regards to the Vengeance.
Artillery positions are a bit easier to destroy – not so – even during WW2 they had a security force surrounding them – now they have high mobility and are deep behind your lines – only air superiority is a danger.
Yes, I agree these slow-moving artillery pieces are thing of a by-gone age.
Where is it written that Katherine agreed with Victor that the Marik child should remain in the hospital and that a double should be used? When you read her bio it is clear that she only took advantage of the situation and never had any insight as to Victor’s actions.
So, the statement holds – Victor instituted two Wars as his crimes most terrible – one over the death of the Marik child and the second by insinuating that his sister murdered their brother …
Both of which are on his hands the blood so deep …
And yet this cannot be said of Katherine, she never instituted a wars so vial.
So who is the real villain of the story?
And yes this one child is a nexus from which great tyranny and misfortune beget the entire of the IS. If only Victor had demonstrated greater compassion as a human the IS would not be in such a mess it is in the far future. Thus demonstrating that he is quite incompetent.
As a mental exercise consider – what would change if Victor had ordered a command circuit once informed and attempted to return the child as quickly as possible – How would the IS change?
Kerensky’s Command Circuit
First the command circuit is for the most experienced military units within the SLDF (in close proximity to Terra). These will be backed up by all available warships within close proximity.
Then other units can be quickly forwarded to the front by other Command Circuits and they too can be sent in to the fray as naval reinforcements arrive for their wave upon Terra
Then this can occur again and again – and a war of attrition upon Terra can commence in which over time Amaris’ forces would succumb as they do not have the forces to continually defend against wave after wave of forces that have been quickly brought to bear by their own command circuits within all the Great Houses
It is not that hard to imagine and to execute – thus demonstrating once again Kerensky’s ineptitude.
Bug-eye – yes military variants are spy ships and like all ships they can also be civilian variants that act as couriers – it is not hard to believe that ship class can be retrofitted for both civilian and military use by their manufacturing corporation as a means of diversifying their production base to increase their target market and thus increase their profit margins.
Colonizing worlds via the principle of a few hundred is both ludicrous and imbecilic – as the number of ships required would be incredibly vast indeed – especially when you consider the vast number of materials involved, the amount of seeds required as well as the number of animals required – in close proximity to humans good luck in maintaining the health of the crew.
Sorry to say but the small dropships – they do not work when considering the question of mass exodus from Terra to the Stars.
Behemoth – Production Year 2782 – The Star League has just fallen and Blake is attempting to reconstruct Terra … just a bit late for an exodus from Terra!
So No. Alt people do not consider the game a space opera. You bemoan my statement “Us Alt People” and yet when you use an absolute also it is all correct and above board – shouldn’t the statements be ‘Some’ Alt people do not consider? As I believe in the Alt and I believe in the Space Opera …
Keep the game playable for small groups – This is still very easy to do even though the backdrop may be within a vast war – I have been in and run many a D&D campaign with this premise – I can also be done with Warhammer 40K and I would surmise with other games …
This is why I consider the game, In my opinion, far more superior when you have a game with hundreds of regiments – you could have a dozen units on the planet and you can run each separately and depending on their outcomes this could affect other battles located throughout the world ….
You could have a unit of LAMS attacking a ground based naval canon with command marines as support …
A reconnaissance unit
A main battle unit
And many others all over the world fighting simultaneously
To me this sounds far more exiting than that of one unit going up against one other unit and who ever wins gets the planet, and the people of that planet do not even care to create heir own military force to defend their world.
Quote:
What War with the FWL? Victor didn’t start any war with anyone. Is this another case of the ALT trying to be canon? Can we stick to canon, please?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_GUERRERO
so the war between the FS and the FWL and the CC over the cover up of the death of Joshua Marik by Victor is now an Alt?
and what about Victor’s call to arms over the death of his brother this too is also an Alt and never occurred?
Warships should be the exclusive property of a Government – however if a damaged ship is found and it can be rebuilt then good luck to whomever can pull it off.
They went from cool to pointless because of the overly complex rules – may I suggest looking at other games rules and perhaps incorporating hem into the game in order to simplify everything. i.e. ditching the overly complex for the less complex.
The issue with warships are they are built in too fragile a manner – they should have more turrets etc
Also small ships should only be allowed small naval weapons (very fast)
Medium ships with Md and Sm naval weapons
Heavy Ships with Hv Md and Sm naval weapons etc (not so fast)
Due to the size of the engine output ….
Overall the entice warship system should be scrapped and rewritten in my opinion, and again there needs to be something that neutralizes the nuke less they will always be glorified targets.
Question Karagin – if Victor had not initiated Operation Dopple-ganger and returned his son – would Thomas stop providing extra conversion kits and in so doing ruin the only souse of his economic resurgence within the FWL and at the same time kickstarted a recession within the FWL all because NASIS was unable to cure his son?
The answer is no he would not stop providing Kits – the FWL requires this export to maintain their bull market – if he had even attempted it Parliament would have censured him for being a twat – and he would have lost many friend’s swing voted within parliament.
What this shows is Victors complete naivete when it comes to understanding the FWL political / economic system as well as no understanding what it is to be human.
No I agree Katherine is a villain, and in a good way – and yet this is exactly what the FC realm needs when fighting the Clans. In addition she makes the story more fun. A Machiavellian character will jus add spice to the game. How many leaders in history survive longer, make their country more prosperous, by being and out and out villain to everyone?
Victor on the other hand is bland, boring and quite unrealistic – his entire character needs a major overhaul – and I would also include all his other siblings in this request …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/19/22 09:22 AM
70.118.172.64
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Yes, Remote weapons could target dropships, but a dropship is moving far faster than a warship and can change course faster. So the remote weapons platform may not be able to track as fast; that could be worked out as a to hit modifiers and such. Remember that not every system will have remote weapons platforms, and many will only have a few.
Having Jump drives on the carrier dropships like the Titan would be a boon and something that could work. You already said the trade-off is that they can not land, meaning they are only space vessels. That has advantages along with disadvantages and offers a balance.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/19/22 12:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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Haven't heard of the Gorgon. For some reason, I thought the Leopard CV wasn't able to land. The Titan was another unknown. Hmmm. It the Okinawa still the only spheroid fighter carrier?
That is something new. Saying 'All of which will also determine the size and complexity of the military (available weapon systems) on that world.' Does this mean not all weapons would be produced on each world as implied by previous responses? That mechs would not be produced on all worlds?
Well that explains why you don't understand the game and story line. You think this is Battlestar Galactica. It isn't. Suggest you take a few months and reread the entire set of books and stop inserting words into them. The game is not a space opera.
You would think there would be heavy security as well as advanced security counter measures, but the game does not do that. You can sneak into most places and look around. The best security tends to be around mechs, while people seem to have the least.
Doesn't matter where the troops are designated to be. Not all troops have the same level of training. The entire training battalion set up shows this for mech warriors. A lot of locally raised militia as not was well trained as academies, while some local militia are better trained then the mainstream military.
Self sufficient does not include making mechs, dropships, jumpships and a more then a few other things. Self sufficient is being able to survive on your own. Saying trade was changed from feeding worlds to just luxury items is not making each an island unto their own, according to your implied definition. Your statements imply that each world would be able to build anything mankind knows to be an island. Most should build rifles, but not things like a gatling gun, much less a mech sizes laser. Some would know how, but not do so.
If all worlds were totally self sufficient, than each would be like a city state, with no large organization binding them to others. That means nothing being NAP or Defense Pacts. There would not be the large realms in the IS.
It was written that she thought the idea was something that could work, but was performed badly. The plot armor exposed it. If not for that, the story would have continued on with the FC being one large unit. Which is funny, as the CC did not have any sort of DNA for both Thomas's. Otherwise, they would have found out the fake.
Katherine stole the throne from Victor while he was removing the clan threat. Then decided to kill all that did not agree with her. She even killed their mother. You are really going to try and say Victor caused the civil war?
The war with the FWL was plot armor. He did not start the war, but was pushed into it, as operation was found out. There was no malice in Victor's actions. He would have told Thomas the truth when he was sure the clans were dealt with. He was NOT replacing the Marik leadership. That is written in the books, not some supposed twist. Ignore the facts and keep putting up suppositions. It doesn't help your case.
Again, the lack of understanding the game and even normal war shows. Air is not the only threat to artillery. Artillery positions are static. You can set up mobile artillery, but they are not normally used to guard cities. Enemy units overrun artillery positions regularly. Part of why there isn't so many of them. As for guards, well there are guards around a lot of things and they don't always hold. For some forces, the destruction of the artillery is the mission, and they ignore the guards until that is done. At all costs I believe the term is.
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Karagin
07/19/22 12:32 PM
70.118.172.64
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One big issue is that many of the writers turn the "heroes" into operators, aka special forces, who can do amazing things outside of their mechs and feats that would take years of training, etc...to master.
Prime example, NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VICTORY, we have bad guys who are nothing but Clan training sbikos doing things that ONLY special forces should be doing, but for the sake of a story, off go the super soldiers to do these amazing things that mechwarriors would not normally be doing. Hijacking mechs would be special operators' jobs, not cadets or normal mechwarriors. I get it; this is a fictional universe, but let's have some realism and keep things grounded in the actual reality of common sense.
This lends to the idea that we have currently with the ALT that is being pushed as canon. The game is not space opera, it's not BSG or SW or ST. The idea of Katherine wanting control of the whole Fed-Com is made very clear, and she is not happy with only having half of it. The novels spell out she expected her sister Yvonne to simply give her the FedSuns throne and be done with it all because she (Katherine) was the older sister thus, it was her's by that right alone. I am starting to question if Reqiuem has even read the novels and the sourcebooks because, unlike the Jihad crap, the lead to up to Fed-Com Civil War was part of the main storyline and fed into the issues Victor was dealing with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/19/22 12:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. I guess Victor should have sent Joshua home right after Hanse died. That would have helped the FC and the entire IS defeat the clans. Good call. NOT!
As stated in the books, Joshua would never have survived the stress the jumps would put on his body. Knowing this, it WOULD be murder. Something that seems to have not really been thought out before asking this. Or maybe you skimmed over that part, 'reading' the books. Given the responses in the threads, there is a history of missing information when responding to things here.
Why send your forces piecemeal to the front lines, when your main weapons are going to take time? Bring them in all at once. Why is this so difficult to understand? There is nothing gained from sending in 2 or 3 dropships at a time, except to lose them. This may well be why the SLDF has such horrible losses in the periphery, from doing such a stupid thing. I guess the clans followed that thinking when they only sent a few forces to retake the IS.
You did not read the fluff of the Bugeye, did you? It is a spy ship. It is not a military ship, nor does it have other models It has one job and one job only. Recon of all systems assigned to it, even if it is your own systems.
As stated, the Scout jumpship would be the closest thing to a pony express/command circuit courier in canon.
Colonizing another world is NOT sending an entire nation to it immediately. Get that straight. How many cruiseliner ships were used to colonize north America? None. There were multiple smaller ships carrying people. Yes, there was native life, which changes a few parameters, but the concept of other worlds is the same. A single large cargo ship could be used to bring in the items needed to survive, such as water purifies, and farm equipment, but that also means processing fossil fuels. 20 to maybe 1000 would start construction of buildings and got the field ready to grow. Even corporate colonies would not send every last person needed for running the place. They would be sent in waves. They would be doing things as cheaply as they can. Having tens of thousands on a world to have something like crop failure, or some freak weather destroy the colony is not something they want. SO a small group gets the ball rolling, then add more as you can. Other then trying to get an argument going, what is so difficult to understand about this? Oh yeah, Space opera. Every last person is aboard space ships.
My statement: I know for a fact, more then a few alts don't operate on the space opera theme.
Your statement: You bemoan my statement “Us Alt People” and yet when you use an absolute
More proof of your not reading the statements. Your statement is an outright lie. More then a few alts is not absolutely all people with alts. If you aren't going to actually read and comprehend things you are responding to, then don't respond.
Play a different game if you want to have warships be the main focus. The game Battletech is about ground combat tactics. It includes some space, but that is not the main focus. As this is yet another attempt to just create an argument, it might be time for you to go to another game.
And I suggest Spell Jammer for your D&D space opera. I just seen an article where they have it for 5e. The advanced D&D was fun to play, but took a while to figure out.
The answer is Joshua would have died in transit. The game states that outright. That would have been murder. Given the hostilities between the houses to begin with, Thomas would never have believed the imposter would not be put on the throne. Eventually, Thomas himself would be found out, as succession questions would have demanded blood samples, and that would show Thomas was not part of the Marik family.
And yes. The refits would stop flowing until a new deal was made. It isn't like WOB was going to face off against the clans, so letting them chew on the FC and even DC so the FWL would be the leader of the IS would probably have come about.
If the leader of a realm is absolute in their power, like suggested, how would he be voted down? Also, the FWL should have been expanding their own forces, if for no other reason then to deal with the clans when they broke thru the FC, or to annex parts of the FC in order to 'save' it from clan occupation. Then strike from there adding to the annexed territories that would now be part of the FWL.
So it would be a great win for the FWL, and WOB.
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Karagin
07/19/22 05:53 PM
70.118.172.64
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Us ALT people? No, we are asking for the ALT to see what you offer Reqiuem, so we know what to expect. Just as with canon, we can see it and refer back to it since it is the facts of the game.
Now, as have others, we have both said that we don't always agree with stuff in the game. There are a lot of things I don't like that Battletech does. Some are easier to ignore and toss out; others I grin and bear it, as needs to be done because I do like the overall universe. And I do have my own ALT, but I am not trying to force mine on anyone as canonical fact or push it as the only way to go. That is what you are doing. We have tried several times to get you to understand the whys and hows of things, and you keep going right back to your ALT, throwing things from it at us, yet, we don't have a copy of it, so we can't even compare it to canon to even follow all of your points.
Again, I am asking; please post your ALT version of Battletech, let us see it, and look it over; what's the worse that happens? We don't like it? Okay, so what? Others have posted their versions here, and folks have offered ideas, comments, and such. Some have gone on to do things with the comments and suggestions. Others have done nothing with the stuff because it was a one-off project. What is the harm in posting it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/19/22 08:11 PM
45.51.181.83
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Us alt people means that they believe that everyone that has an alt views the world thru his looking glass and agrees. Or so almost all the posts put up implies.
As been my experience, only one person has stated the vision is the only one that can exist. I have yet to hear anyone else say the same thing.
I do expect others on the site to correct me if I am wrong, or not going things well enough. I believe that is why most have not chimed in on any discussions other then the few times. I do believe most are tired of the same crap that continues to go around, as I am getting tired of it, and I am the one trying to keep it on track.
Now if the fluffy bunny would stop trying to bite my ankles and say they are an alligator, we might get some decent conversation.
But then the universe would collapse in on itself as the evil prince did what was necessary to keep the kingdom in tact, while the good sister tried to destroy it, as she could not stand someone else ruling it.
I don't believe there is a fully scripted alt done up. The perfect logic seems to be corrected with each post showing the flaws in it. Some points seem to be made up on the spot. It appears this is all just to get an argument going.
As with most of the things put up, the logic is bent to a point of this conclusion.
The most likely answers are put up, and yet they can't possible be the reasons for things in the game, as they don't fit this alt. And again, the answer is go to the real BT site and get your answers. The best we can do is give the best answers we have using CANON facts in the canon books. Supposition is the returned replies.
Every session changes something in canon. Even the official fights. That does not mean they are bad. It is when someone demands their game become the official canon is.
Putting up half truths, or out right lies, makes it even worse.
Given the posts, I can see why this alt will never be seen by anyone other then the person who wrote it up. It has alrady been shown by what has been posted that it contradicts itself. As the game is beyond the clan invasion, yet it seems the clan invasion hasn't been written up entirely, shows this.
As I have stated before, those were the last books I got, so am trying to avoid entering conversations beyond that. I can add in things that seem to be logical or missing, but those are more questions for information.
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Requiem
07/19/22 08:52 PM
1.147.102.237
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Let us look at the statement in full
Number of military industrial complexes on a world-to-world basis is dependent upon each world’s … population, education, technology base, economic level etc.
All of which will also determine the size and complexity of the military (available weapon systems) on that world.
Therefore, the simple answer to your enquiry is that if a world does maintain all appropriate requirements then ‘yes’ they will be able to manufacture not only BattleMechs, but also Aerospace Fighters, Warships – i.e. every weapon system available within their House’s armoury that has been provided to them by their Liege Lord.
Sorry to burst your bubble but this game is most definitely a space opera – as the definition includes novels that are set in outer space (tick), typically of a simplistic and melodramatic nature (double tick), and they are also commonly action adventures, of a galactic scale (triple tick).
But the game does not have that – Really? Then what security would you say the defenders of Hesperus II are as well as the defenders upon every capitol world for that matter?
I would have come to conclusion the defenders are whatever the Game-Master wants them to be.
Let us look at the idea of self-sufficiency – what this means is that when a world reaches a certain technological level they are able to create anything at hat level if provided with appropriate education.
Or are you saying that the USA should never have been able to create a shuttle just because ….
Once any world reaches a level of technology with a level of education they WILL BE ABLE to create mechs, dropships, jump-ships, warships, space stations, lunar stations etc.
Saying trade was changed from feeding worlds to just luxury items is not making each an island unto their own – and yet this is exactly what was stated every world is an island unto itself – thus they will have to make everything themselves if they require it!
And yes given technology and education etc. each would will be able to build anything mankind knows.
Being a totally self-sufficient city state does NOT mean there is a large organisation binding themselves to others – Yes there are still large realms within the IS. Why? The Great Reams of the Inner Sphere are similar to Franchises – in that every world is supplied with education, technology, monetary grants etc. via its existing government / corporations – whist at the same time they are provided with a security guarantee in that if invaded with an overwhelming force their Great House will dispatch a relief force to assist in the defence of your world.
Thus stick with my House I will provide everything necessary to increase the social welfare / technological development of your world – whist ensuring your safety and liberty from the enemy.
This is the simplicity of it – something many forget – if they can redevelop all houses worlds via infrastructure / education programs etc whilst bringing in starbucks and every other major corps. – assisted with the change of their agriculture to that which you can also live off, ensured humanitarian rights then provided a guarantee that if any force threatened their new way of life they would step in (and they actually followed through – (rather than sitting on the side lines) and your word has to mean something then they will remain strong and allied to your House.
It was written that she thought the idea was something that could work, but was performed badly. - as I have requested many times and yet have never received – Book and Page No. together with the quote please.
He was NOT replacing the Marik leadership – as stated many times how did the Captain General Thomas Marik know this – all he knew his that his son was dead and Victor had replaced him – all he could do was make a logical assumption as to his actions act accordingly. Again you are making statements based upon total knowledge, you have to actually look at a situation from the point of vies of the character with an absence of total knowledge – the knowledge that this character only knows!
Oh yes Katherine did not steal anything – when Victor abandoned the throne to go play soldier he left her no choice but to take the throne. Who knew if he would ever return?
This just once more shows how much a fool Victor really is.
Artillery positions are ONLY static when they are fixed placed emplacement artillery piece – otherwise they are still on mobile carriages.
And when properly defended on the ground the only real access remaining is via the air!
Always with those Negative Waves - you say the guards don’t always hold like it is a predetermined fact, where as this is no true, the guards may hold - as charging in like a banzai charge is limited to just one house! Others are not so interested in dying just to kill of an artillery piece.
Question – how could I have created many of my forums – Like Victor’s so called proof – if I did not have he books and I had not read them …..
Did anyone think of sending out an exploration group to an old SLDF Medical Facility in the hopes of finding a cure for Joshua?
Or for that matter during the Jihad when the fake Thomas was ousted – did anyone ask him why Joshua was never sent to the WoB Hidden medical world that put the real Thomas back together as a cyborg?
Or for that matter did anyone ask either Jamie Wolf or Snord why Joshua was never allowed into either of their medical facilities?
Surviving the stress of the Jumps is an unknown – though it is still better to try and get him home than never to try at all.
Why send your forces piecemeal to the front lines, when your main weapons are going to take time? The Outworlds alliance has supplied you with the complete TO&E of Amaris and you want to quibble over going in piecemeal – as Commander of the SLDF you have just one duty to save your liege lord and his family asap – if this can be done through a command a circuit as well as using a recurring wave attack strategy based upon attrition warfare then this is what you do!
Or do you also believe that it is better to sit outside and do nothing!
Whom does the spy ship gather information for / work for – the government and the military – hence it is the military … quibbling over who operates it the spy agency or the military is pointless!
Oh and by the way where are the plans for a courier ship?
Thus it is once more up to the prerogative of the game master to make the call – and I have made mine.
Question how do you build a viable colony and how big should that colony be to accept future citizens – so yes they should be that big to establish a viable colony.
Also when was America Colonized and isn’t America on the same planet – have we attempted o even colonize the moon yet or how about Mars – what is being discussed here is colonizing a world who knows how many light years distant who has no communication – thus must be self sufficient from the get go - thus how big should the colony be if stranded and had to fend for themselves before help arrived?
So if you want to fend off with just the basics that is fine with me -however I would rather be prepared for any eventuality – thus I would like to have more.
Drongo ….
Comprehension of what was written may help …
If Joshua died in transit, this means there was no substitute, if there is no substitute then there is no war, no war means Katherine does not gain the Lyran half of the FC etc.
Also if the refit packages stop then the FWL economy stops – it goes from Bull to recession in a heartbeat – mass unemployment on certain worlds as factories are required to shut down, transport businesses cease operating etc. and the domino effect keeps going as people no longer have jobs and are now unable to pay their mortgages ….
Also large corporations and their Boards will no longer be receiving huge profits / bonuses so who are they going to mad at …
Then the Parliament gets involved and ‘requests’ (demands) an explanation as to what is going on ….
The death of his son is sad and yet at the same time Victor did everything within his power and now you want to act like a jerk just because …. Really?
Sorry but this sounds really off the wall that the refit packages would stop …
Also we are in a situation where we all hang together or we all hang separately situation with regards to the clans … so in this situation the FWL should join the SLDF in order to save the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/19/22 10:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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The assumption that all weapons systems are available it the issue. Not off of them would be. Patents would make sure they are not available to any but the particular company that owns those rights. If they are not on world, or have not sold a license to make them, then they can not be produced. So the statement is not entirely true.
Also the original statement sounds like all worlds have the ability to make the same thing, no matter the size of the industry base or knowledge. So the additional information added during the assumption part put in there changes things.
So given your definition, all ground wars are naval wars, even if they do not border any bodies of water that can float a ship. This would also be true when humankind were using rocks and stick to fight, as they might need to cross a river in order to attack each other.
As the game does have wars fought with those that were never in space on either side, such as rebellions, this does not fit.
Again, using the alt to run away from the fact that, as stated, the game does not have that. If it did, it would be in the canon game. Simple logic.
If the game doesn't have the Death star, then the game doesn't have the Death star for canon purposes.
There is no alt involved in that logic.
Self sufficiency is not creating a weapon that will destroy a star. It is what is required to survive at a basic level. That does not even require tractors for farming, as it can be done by hand. Difficult in a lot of soils but possible. You do not need diamond infused armor to be self sufficient. Honestly, you don't even need fossil fuel generators for it either.
According to your responses, all worlds would be educated BEFORE they are self sufficient. So where is this new educational material coming from? Each world is supposed to be on the same level as each other in your posts.
The only thing you are guaranteed to do is live off our hard work, making you coffers full, promising something you can't deliver. A simple NAP and defense pact would remove the need to call someone else leader. Those two things cost far less then being part of a nation, especially if you have a rep of using those under you as fodder for your ambitions. There is no need for a ruler over multiple self sufficient worlds. This is even more true if all can make everything known to mankind. You scream freedom, yet suggest servitude.
How about we just design the world from the start and not have to rebuild it to someone elses vision? Redesigning things is a complete waste of resources and money. Do it right the first time, and again, where is this new educational material coming from? All are equal in tech according to your definition in your responses.
Go reread the books. You obviously didn't read everything, as multiple points are constantly missing from the responses put up. Maybe you can learn why things happen, like how the clans think by learning how they came to it.
Then maybe the discussions would not keep resulting in the fake alt facts being used to try and counter canon facts.
Only one person to date has stated that their view is the only viable solution, or it can't be any other way.
The issue is your statements were not from the game point of view, but your own vision. You said that Victor was killing the child for his own benefit. No where in the books did it say this. You said Victor is a monster for killing a child. That is not an in game view. That is YOUR statement against the character.
Katherine stole the thrones as Victor did not say he bequeathed them into forever when he gave Yvonne the FS throne. He did not give Katherine the throne when she pulled out of the deal. He decided to let the clause go into effect, which may not have even applied to the Archon Prince position after Hanse and Melissa died. I don't see that it would. The agreement was one title for both realms.
And the cop out of they didn't know if he would come back, doesn't mean much as they were not handed back when he did come back.
You think that only the DC sends out forces to silence artillery at all costs? Do you even understand the concept of strategy and tactics? So with this, you think no army has ever or will ever, send forces charging to take an objective? Such as attack a city or even a defended hill? Again. Think before posting.
Your own forums? You mean thread on this site?
Actually reading the books is not the same as skimming them or having someone else paraphrase them. The reading between the lines and comprehending what is written is yet another version of not reading what is there, but projecting your vision into it. The facts are in the books, as well as why they were done. The posts put up shows that something is missing from the supposed reading.
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ghostrider
07/19/22 11:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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Did you think about any facts before posting something like finding an old SL medical facility? Helm should have had a good one, as the Core was gotten from it. Why wasn't that working by the time the clan war came into being? The NAIS was supposed to be the most advanced tech institute in the IS at the time. Comstar should have had better. SO now with that said, do you really think they just said, 'well that facility is far better, but let's send the boy across the IS to a second best'?
Given Thomas was WOB, they should have dealt with the child, and not have even bothered the meeting with it. And all knew Joshua would never return off New Avalon without a miracle.
The other questions have to go to the officials, as there is no answer in the books for that. The fact that the Dragoons were on an SL martial olympiad, should have had the best SL tech if it was still around. Wolf would have brought it back up to par if it survived.
Don't understand war is not fixed numbers? Do you believe the numbers the OA had was accurate? How many survived the invasion? How many were picked up? How old was the OA's information? Did any one send reinforcements in to help remove the SL lord? It isn't like the houses were supporting the Cameron's at the time. It is just as likely to have the houses strike the SLDF in order to remove that from over their heads. And this also has to ask if the SDS systems get shut down, or used against the RWR forces? Will it be used against them? Making sure there were no more reinforcements from the RWR was a priority. Also, getting supplies was another. Do you think they had a fully functioning war machine with their war in the periphery going so badly? I doubt Kerensky has many units even half working at that time, with most of the ones that were, being in the TH at the time of the assassination.
The government controlled the Bugeye. They gave the intel the military needed, but the military did NOT control them. If they had, they would have had far more intel on the periphery, especially the RWR before the downfall.
And as the statements were for canon, it remains that canon did not use them for courier duty. Make your own ship to do so. As stated, the Scout jumpship would work. There were other jumpship designs during the SL that were never shown in the books. One of them could well have been used. Maybe even a secret one that jumps further then 30 Light years.
A viable colony is one that can feed itself, and not rely on imports to survive. As stated before, that does not mean they have to have tractors and high tech to survive. Once it is proven to be able to feed those coming in, then you continue to bring them in, though most of the time, your success will have others looking to move in. Only a very few would be company sponsored. And those would be limited in scope as well. Least amount of losses if something should happen.
The double was to disappear when Thomas was to be told about Joshua. Had they known the blood sample was taken, they would have removed the double and said the blood was fake. Set up a whole thing to cover for it. It would even go as far as Marik personnel taking blood from the real Joshua to show the fake. Would it have worked? I don't have the inside information to see if that plot armor would have worked.
So the FWL was reliant on the FC for their economy, yet went to war with them? How does that work?
The hang together or hand separately doesn't work. The CC never agreed to fighting the clans initially. Only the reformed SL gave them the incentive to do so. And even then, they chose to hit the St. Ives.
The FWL could have sat back and let the FC/DC bleed the clans before getting involved. Then they would have hit the weakened FC worlds on their border in order to reinforce them against the weakened clans. GIven WOB knew what Comstar knew, they had the advantage here. WOB only emerged once the clans were stopped. So all that intel would have been going to Thomas.
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Karagin
07/20/22 12:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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The idea of finding any old SL base, depot, etc...is great. However, let's be real; nothing in there is going to be in full working order. The mechs are going to need a lot of maintenance even to get moving, any ammo has by now dry rotted to nothing. Mold and mildew will have gotten into and on to everything. Computer systems will be damaged, and while salvageable, they are not going to be that easy to work with.
Going to any other country on this planet, you find out fast that most of them do not use 110 as the common voltage for ANYTHING. So a found Star League computer will not be compatible with your Tobshia 9000 Omni Zulu Prime 14 Smartsystem Deluxe. So finding the lost depot or whatever isn't going to be the instant boon the books and stories make it seem like. Not at first. Not the boon comes once you get back to civilization and find a buyer for the tech and hope that a certain angry cult doesn't come after you or a House three letter or four letter group doesn't take an interest in you before you can find buyers like Snord or Chandya etc...
The find of the medical center of SL tech does you about as much good as a mech depot, and nothing will be useable. Noting is clean, nothing is worth that much, and the bigger equipment will take time to get out of the building, bunker, etc...
It feels like we are in a Chose Your Own Adventure version of Battletech now, where finding things means you get the prize, so it has to work to get the story to move on.
Ghostrider, your last point about the FWL sitting back and letting the FC/DC bleed against the Clans makes sense; it was costing them nothing to sell the kits and mechs. Plus, they were getting all the feedback on what was and was not working from the new upgrades for free. I think Victor should have told the fake Thomas once he knew for sure Joshua was dead, suggested the double to be able to send the body home, and then the double would vanish (or not since at that point the double would be in the hands of the fake Thomas) and thus avoiding a lot of issues. Maybe. That is one possibility that could have happened. Yet, for some reason, TPTB wanted a civil war to pull the fighting and attention OFF the Clan front and back into the Inner Sphere. Recall the Truce said the Clans could not attack past the Truce Line; nothing was really stopping them from advancing toward it on the flanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/20/22 02:12 AM
1.147.81.29
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Patents are a non-issue if they are owned by the state then the sate will receive a royalty amount based upon the number manufactured. If owned by a corporation, then the corporation will be ‘encouraged’ to undertake a globalization strategy to the world in question. Where they will establish a new plant for the manufacture of this ‘particular item’.
So yes, the statement remains true to the original premise.
… the original statement sounds like all worlds have the ability to make the same thing, no matter the size of the industry base or knowledge … Can you please re-read the original statement, in which it postulated that once a world reaches a certain level of Technology and Education it will be able to create advanced weapons when supplied with the information requirements.
How did you get to the assumption? … “So given your definition, all ground wars are naval wars, even if they do not border any bodies of water that can float a ship.”
Let me get this straight when colonizing a world rather than use advanced technology to ensure self-sufficiency in farming we should just our hands and sticks in a subsistence farming, all because you do not wan to bring a tractor along as it takes up too much space in the Dropship.
Really? Isn’t this taking the Amish way of life a bit too far?
Where is this education coming from – central government on a data storage device. As for the rant this does not make any sense – can it possibly be re-written?
Victor was killing the child for his own benefit. No where in the books did it say this.
Sorry once again to burst your deniability bubble but yes it did say that it was for “his benefit” or more accurately the FC benefit – to maintain supply of refit packages for the war with the Clans.
i.e. to maintain the supply of refit packages provides Victor with the motive to commit the crime.
Victor is not a monster for killing a child – where is your humanity? If a President did this IRL what would you say then?
If Yvonne could be so easily removed from the throne then she is not worthy of it, and Victor is not worthy of placing his trust in Yvonne.
Both are incompetent – thus it is better for the state that she takes the rains asap!
The agreement was one title for both realms – sorry but no, the agreement was that Victor would rule both but when he was outside the Lyran half then Katherine would act as his Regent.
Question would you return the realm to man that has shown himself to grossly incompetent for the task at hand? He ran away to play soldier and left an incompetent fool on the throne … he deserved to loose the throne!
Also by rights of succession Katherine is the next ruler of the FC upon the death of Victor / or proven to be incompetent of the job (ie similar to the 25th).
So when it is proven to the people that Victor is incompetent – running away from the job – by all rights she is allowed to contest for the job.
If you have a mad CO who likes bayonet charges, then this is their prerogative.
Just remember one thing – a good supply of body bags.
Your own forums … even if it is from a moderator?
If the helm memory core did have the solution – then why was it not implemented? Think about this for just one second!
Also any lead no matter how remote – would you send a team to undertake an investigation?
Prior to Thomas being WoB he was ComStar – so why didn’t they send him to the ‘ComStar’ Hidden world once detected – the same one the real Thomas was fixed up on as this was before the Clan Invasion?
And what of Snords medial facility beneath his museum?
Canon stated that the numbers the OA had were accurate – the question is then would Kerensky believe the numbers?
Question which is the real priority – saving the life of the first lord and his family or restricting resupplies from the RWR.
Still cheaper and easier to just take a bug-eye and convert into a civilian craft to make the communications ship!
So Victor has the right to keep a father in the dark about the death of his son if it is for the greater good of the FC and not the FWL?
And yet still no one has ever talked to Thomas about this.
No the FWL was not reliant upon the FC for their economy – a great deal of income was coming from exports to the FS, LC and DC that was helping the FWL economy.
And what was Kai doing as a member of St Ives in the war? Also how many worlds did St Ives have at the start of the Clan War?
Computer systems damaged – Helm Memory core? How did this survive?
Doesn’t anyone take an adaptor with them when they are going to a Star League Facility anymore – or for that sake can’t anyone make an adaptor if necessary?
And this exploration mission is government funded – so like mercenaries – don’t you think a chaperone or two will be supplied to ensure there are no sticky fingers.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/20/22 12:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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First thing to get started. The perfect logic of the alt has to be rewritten as the idea that the FWL was NOT reliant on the FC for their economy.
The sales of the refit packs would have a majority of them being bought by the DC. They were in greater need of them then the FC, as the industrial might of the FC would be building them as well. The DC had a smaller industry to even attempt it.
I have never heard of a state owning a patent.
The only type of governments that push companies to move or force production of their goods is normally one no one wants to live under. The good ones offer benefits, but in the end, the company can refuse. There is a reason why patents are in effect. It allows those that own them, the ability to build where, when and how many of the item they want.
When supplied with the educational requirements. You mean they need the blueprints and such to make complex items? And this is the very reason why patents are here. So that a specific item is only made in a few places, not everywhere by every one?
The idea that just because forces move from one world to another, you said they were a space navy war. So any battle in history that touched water was a navy battle according to that concept.
I said a self sufficient colony does not need things like farming tractors to survive. And in the initial push, they would be so limited in space, that a tractor would not be taken. Most colonies did NOT start off with a planet being moved to a new world. They were normal people trying to get away from oppression. I did not say they would not get items that would make life easier. That would come later. Again, the lack of knowing how colonies were started show up. When you first start, you have so many different things that are required, things that make life easier tend to be left behind.
Katherine and the entire IS benefitted from the refit packages. At least for helping to stop the clans. Afterwards, they could be said to have been used against the other house, or even their own people, like Katherine did. I did not hear of uprisings formed when Victor was in charge from his governing. Why is that?
Skye being the exception as they were rebelling for most of their history.
Actually, anyone in war can kill a child. This also include the leaders that started the fight as well. But you left out part of that statement. You said he did. I don't remember reading he knifed Joshua or shot him, or anything like that.
And humanity has nothing to do with this. The case had a child that was in pain about to die, so they let the child die, instead of keeping him on machines. The ONLY reason why this is an issue is because you want to create a monster to back up your favorite character to take over. Had Katherine done this, you would be praising her for saving the FC. And yet, her power grab causes many children to die. Nothing said here, and I know you would never have said anything.
Edited by ghostrider (07/20/22 12:57 PM)
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ghostrider
07/20/22 12:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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Katherine was not the better ruler. She had a few points that would have done well if not for her killing any that opposed her. See government needs people to say 'no, that will not work as presented'. Killing someone that says that is a crime to the nation. You can ignore the statements, but that means you miss out on information.
Sorry, but reread the agreement. The Archon-Prince(ss) ruled both realms. There would be an appointed reagent on the throne when they were in the other realm. This is a feudalistic necessity, as you can not personally be in both at once. This happens because you can not be everywhere at once. Katherine was in charge only because she was family. It was not a part of the agreement. Victor could very well have chosen someone else to take the position, and it would stick.
Where did it say Yvonne was an incompetent fool? She was unsure of herself, but she did not run the FS badly. The lies and twisted stories Katherine was putting out harped on the supposed faults. But no where does it say Yvonne was a horrible leader.
Victor was not incompetent for leading the troops in a war to remove the greatest threat at that time. He was following the military leadership role that gave his family the reputation of dealing with threats like that head on. Had he not, you would be saying he was a coward for not doing so. There is no winning when someone hates everything about a character.
There is no real option to win a war without some charging going on. You have to remove an enemy, and that means taking the lands they are on. To take a sword in the middle of a gun fight and try the charge is stupid. But you have to push forward to win at times. Other times, you just hold the ground. In the case of the artillery, in order to prevent the deaths of your comrades, you have to charge where they are set up. Otherwise, if the enemy has the ammo for it, they will eventually wipe out the entire group, and pound the area flat. To even question trying to take out artillery shows a lack of any understanding of the necessities of war.
The core itself was not the point. The fact that what housed it should have had advanced medical bays. Not sure if it had the knowledge on how to deal with the disease, but it facility should have had the medical bays. What shape it was in is questionable. But from 3030 to 3050, something should be working right.
And we know other facilities were found.
Again, you assume the houses are never sending scouting teams to look for SL ruins. Do you know why recon missions are sent to areas? To find anything out of the ordinary. That means enemy units, but it also means looking for things like bases that were missed, or uncovered by some event.
Saving the life of the first lord? Did you forget that Amaris killed the first family which started him taking the TH? Beyond precognition, or time travel, there is no way of saving the first lord. And with none of the house lords taking some initiative, what does that say about them? Not a single one would help deal with that threat.
As canon said Katherine killed her mother, why are you using different views for this?
For all Kerensky knows, the house lords were part of the plot to remove the Camerons. Or parts of them anyways.
The tech in a Bugeye is more valuable then you realize. A courier means a schedule, which makes it a huge target. Anyone that can steal one, could very well be making them in the future, which means the TH/SL would have to deal with someone else having that technology. Did you not think about this before suggesting this? You could very easily make a Gazelle to be a courier. Or a Leopard CV. At least then you would have some fighter support. A Congress warship, or any of the older SL models could have been used. Instead we get 'let's use the SR-71 Blackbird to transport our embaseedores to a foreign nation.'
Leaders have always kept deaths a secret. It is required at times, for a time period. It is part of running a government. Releasing the information when that time has passed is the key. Much like troop deployments, some things can not be made public for a while.
Kai was fighting the clans with Victor then performing miracle afterwards. Like having a quick training time, and using the elemental suite to standards beyond clan norms in order to fight against Operation Scorpion. So instead of him being in St. Ives during the clan war, he was with Victor. During the retaking fight, we was part of the forces defending St. Ives from Sun Tzu. Again, this is all in the books.
Having a computer destroyed, yet still having the memory survive is possible. Even a malfunctioning system could have a fully operational memory system. The hard drive in your computer now is a good example. Short out the CPU, and the memory could survive. Why is this needed to be said?
What adaptor is there? You mean that the old computers didn't have USB ports? The midi port for running video and audio to a tv/monitor did not exist on the IBM AT? You mean the original IBM compatible only had a max of 4 megs of memory in the system, not including the drives? That a research facility would use non standard connections to make sure you couldn't just plug in and steal all the information? Imagine that. Security beyond passwords.
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Requiem
07/20/22 07:52 PM
1.147.83.241
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Again, there are no hard numbers as to the split in requests for refit packs from the FWL by either of the FC or the DC.
Just because you are in greater need of packs does not indicate that your side purchased the greatest number.
It should be considered that the FC has almost three times the Regiments as that of the DC – and thus by extension of maintaining a higher number of units they would purchase more packs from the FWL to supplement their own military industrial complex – remember time is a great factor considering the speed of the invasion – thus the need to acquire refit packs quickly prior to their units being sent to the front.
Thus, by this postulation it is deemed that the highest purchaser would be the FC.
Suggest actually googling US Patents – The US Federal Government, through the operation of government-owned research facilities, research grants to universities and procurement contracts with private industries, funds almost 50% of all the US national R&D effort. Therefore, the US Federal Government holds the most patent rights.
Suggest looking at … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayh%E2%80%93Dole_Act
Just because you own a patent does not mean you have carte blanche over the product. A government agency or person authorised by the government may exploit the invention without the consent of the patent owner due to public interest – national security, health etc.
Also, governments can restrict sales through other laws – it is not as if you can sell military hardware (as well as other goods) to just anyone – the government will have a say in the sale, for example a Trade Embargo …
Question – what is the use of a Vengeance Carrier or Leopard CV Carrier? – also what is the use of a Great Houses maintaining a Navy to protect their shipping routes – also have all Pirates now been relegated to a surface action only, no more ship boarding action for Lady Death …. Also, what ever happed to the concept of the black sea?
Quote:
I said a self-sufficient colony does not need things like farming tractors to survive. And in the initial push, they would be so limited in space, that a tractor would not be taken.
Really?, no Really? …. Sorry but yes you will need that tractor to establish your colony – how else are you going to move heavy equipment, or prefab housing for example?
Suggest actually completing the research as to the concept of interstellar colonization first, such as looking at …
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/hq/library/find/bibliographies/space_colonization
Helping to stop the Clans? Really
1st time – their il-khan was killed by a kamikaze and they returned home for a vote …
2nd time – ComStar issued a challenge, and won
Refit packages can only be said to increase a unit’s chance at surviving and little else …
Also all throughout history there have been civil wars and insurrections – so why are you surprised they occurred again … you gave them a weapon and your surprised whom they turned them on?
Quote:
I did not hear of uprisings formed when Victor was in charge from his governing.
Could it be because he was never there in government to start an uprising – he did spend most of his time with his troops in the field.
However, we mustn’t forget that it was at HIS INTIGATION that the FC Civil war commenced when he had another one of his gut feelings that his sister killed his brother – which was later proven to be false and that rather than been killed he was kidnapped – thus it was Victor’s fault (interference in the investigation) that allowed the kidnappers successfully escape!
So let me get this straight killing a child in a hospital and not allowing them to see their family one last time is the same as killing them on the battlefield - is this directly or indirectly?
This is just arguing for the sake of it and attempting to compare an apple with an orange …. Again!
Let’s try to stick with specifics here – in a hospital, no family whatsoever …
Quote:
Katherine was not the better ruler.
Sorry, in my opinion she is far superior to that of Victor who did not understand his role in the government at all – and rather than actually-governing, he chose to play soldier boy.
Sorry, but reread the agreement prior disbanding the FC what was she again?
Yvonne – what do you call a leader who gives up the ship of state just because they are having a bad press day and the poll is saying your down by 20 points?
Victor – what is the primary duty of the head of state?
There is necessary advancements and then there is just blatant stupidity – jut remember which is which.
Hidden world syndrome – so sill looking for those missing bases due to the number of worlds available?
As for SL ruins – how many canon books included teams that undertake such ventures? I do believe the only unit was Snord’s. So where are these scouting teams?
Quote:
Did you forget that Amaris killed the first family which started him taking the TH?
Question – how and when did Kerensky obtain this information? Until he receives undeniable proof it remains his duty to assume they are alive and it is his duty to save them.
If Kerensky believed the House Lords were involved isn’t it his duty to remove them from power by force?
Quote:
Canon said Katherine killed her mother
Again …. How does your character know this? are they all knowing from this point on? Or do they believe in conspiracy theories and live in their parent’s basement?
Bugeye = military / Intelligence agency ship
Courier = civilian
Both have the ability remain on board for extended periods of time as well as highly advanced communication systems built in .
Keeping deaths secret – when they are princes of an intergalactic empire isn’t this a bit of an exception to the rule?
To which military was Kai assigned to?
When going to a foreign land do you ensure you have all the correct cables / adaptors ? so why should it be any different if out attempting to go to a SLDF facility etc
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/20/22 10:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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Again? The discussion has not went over the amount of refit packages the DC and FC buy.
It did say that if the FWL stopped supplying them to the FC, your view was this "would Thomas stop providing extra conversion kits and in so doing ruin the only souse of his economic resurgence within the FWL and at the same time kickstarted a recession within the FWL all because NASIS was unable to cure his son?
The answer is no he would not stop providing Kits – the FWL requires this export to maintain their bull market – if he had even attempted it Parliament would have censured him for being a twat – and he would have lost many friend’s swing voted within parliament.at Thomas would be voted out by the parliment. It was also said,"
So first, you did make it sound like the FWL was relying on the FC to keep it financially afloat, and second, there is nothing here to suggest the DC was getting refit kits. If you can't remember what you wrote, then I suggest you limit yourself.
Funny how you mention how much the government spends on research, but yet don't discuss how much of that research goes to private sources. The government can not just take your patented item and mass produce them, especially if they are not required for defending the nation. If this was true, then a majority of the companies in the U.S. would have been nationalized for their gouging of all including the government. Renewable energy would have already shut down fossil fuel plants. There is a limit to what the government can do. They can, with PERMISSION, produce patented items with compensation to the holders of the patent.
The carrier dropships are doing the same thing the other military dropshisp are. Moving military forces to other worlds or defending the worlds in the area they are in. The game focus is ground combat. It is not set up to fight unlimited wars in space. In fact, most invasions normally don't have more then 2 vengeances in their group. And how many space fights win and hold a world? It is the ground forces that do so.
You need a farming tractor to move heavy loads? When did this happen? In the game, they have loader mechs, and most of those go back to where the ship came from. And where do you need such things for the initial ship to colonize a world? Are you still thinking you have to ship in a full city with Defiance size factories again?
So let me guess. You need an aircraft carrier to patrol a 5 acre pond?
Honestly, a simple forklift would be used to move things. Something that any cargo ship would have standard. Not something the colony would keep.
Also, manual labor has been known to move heavy loads before the invention of tractors. Look to the pyramids of Egypt for that. Prefab homes used for starting a colony is not a Park Avenue luxury Condo tower.
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Karagin
07/20/22 10:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Houses did have scout units out looking for what they thought would be the remains of the SLDF on a dead world or in orbit around a dead world. This is mentioned several times in many of the books.
My point with the computer is that the systems won't be compatible, your OS from an APPLE won't read on WINDOWS machine, it will show an entire full disk but not anything of use to you. And given that computers would have changed or degraded as tech levels fell in the Inner Sphere post Star League, the finds of the computer systems wouldn't always be that amazing. That old store room in the basement with the 400 boxes of punch cards is great! However, do you have a machine that can read them?
Each House, in a way, did have the other Houses helping them out economically but not in the sense of being the sole ticket item. The companies that made mechs would sell to all who had cold hard C-bills. If it were a Fed Suns company selling actuators to a Combine manufacturer, okay, as long as there was no active fighting, the sale would happen, or it would go through third parties. That would be the normal pattern of business across the Inner Sphere; keep in mind that the Houses are large enough that a lot of the economy will be devoted to internal vs. external things.
There will be cross-border/realm trade, but it will be for certain or hard-to-get items and goods. Consumer electronics made in the Combine might be of higher quality than those made in the FWL, so the markets there will be very profitable for that kind of goods and the merchants will know this. That is the stuff the original House sourcebooks did touch on in the back sections when they covered the major manufacturing groups and such.
Clearly, Requiem needs to re-read the books and take better notes.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/20/22 10:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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If not for the FC and DC taking the brunt of the clans and not letting them advance as the clans wanted to, then they were helping to stop the clans. Comstar would never have been able to challenge the clans if the IS folded, like the clans hoped. What would have happened if the FRR just gave up, and didn't bother striking at the Dire Wolf and hitting the bridge, in plot armor?
If you arm citizens, and then expect them to rebel, why are you always pushing for all weapons be made on every world and let the people have complete access to them? Don't try to say you don't as your responses have been pushing that direction.
The knowledge would be there, according to you, to build everything.
The civil war was going to happen with or without him. Just as the stories of old, the exile leader returns to take back the throne stolen from him by a blood thirsty family member. How is this instigated by the exile leader? Oh yeah. He came to take the throne back from the blood thirsty family member.
And if Victor was never part of the government, then how do you say he was a horrible leader? Melissa ran the FC until her death. Yet you say Victor was destroying the FC at that time.
You continue to paint an apple the color orange to try and get out of facts. Joshua would never survive the trip back home. The ONLY way he would see his parents again is IF they went to him. It was already known Joshua would not survive his disease. So you suggest they cruelly put him thru jumping stresses. And think that was better then letting him have a small bit of comfort at the end? Might as well put him on the rack with that thought.
Let's see. The fluff in the Galtor campaign has discussed the very issue of looking for SL bases. They had a computer put forth the most likely places they would be and either found nothing, a base already raided, or some small finds. The 4th war that Delta company ran into the company of Goliaths is yet another SL find. And let's not forget Comstar seizing a lot of SL finds. But in the war game, scouting for lost treasure is not the top priority for writers.
Again, proof you did not really bother with thinking before posting. Could it be that the live broadcast of Amaris blowing the head off the child not be proof of Richard's death? The fact that everything he would receive would say the same thing not enough? Or did reading between the lines interfer with what was actually written?
The continuation of saying Victor was horrible, all comes from what no one in the game mode had ever seen, yet still defending Katherine when all seen what she was doing. You continually suggest everyone in the FC knew Victor was in the field, yet that very information would not be available while he is. You say Victor was never making decisions for the FC, yet have no proof of this. Those in the game would not know this. Yet you use out of game information to try and make him the bad guy, so Katherine can be the good guy. Too bad she showed she was far worse.
The Bugeye is not a military ship. Not sure why this is hard to understand. The military uses other ships for intel gathering. The SL intel uses the Bugeye.
The release of deaths is time reliant. Saying something died, means you admitting that they were some place you claimed they weren't. Understand? For Joshua, the fear of the supplies needed to hold the clans back was a good choice. Given a year or two, then telling Thomas was the right choice.
As the St. Ives was not allowing their forces out of the Compact, due to Sun Tzu being ready to invade due to the distraion of the clan war. He would have attacked at any time. SO Kai went with Victors unit. Also remember that Kai was also an Allard. He was part of the FS.
What connections does the SL facility have? How far out of date is your information on this? Did the place you are going to update to something you don't have? Dell computers uses a different connection to the hard drives then the older ones. Yet others still use the old ribbon cables. Imagine that.
So what size wrench to you need for the new cars? Oh yeah. They changes those every few years.
So what is the size this year? Or last year? Or a decade ago?
Or for that fact, what program coding language did the use for his facility?
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ghostrider
07/20/22 10:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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One more point I had forgot to put in the responses.
The FWL was having problems WITH selling the refit kits to the others.
The Duchy of Andurian was upset that their entire production of PPCs, and ERPPCs were being shipped out. That was part of the reason they revolted and joined the MoC.
So no. The parliment would not have strung up Thomas like was described by Requiem.
More then a few thought the FWL should upgrade their forces long before selling the packs.
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Karagin
07/20/22 11:11 PM
70.118.172.64
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Yeah, it's going to be the hammer opens things approach, and that will cause issues, like misreading millimeters as inches, or so the rumor goes for a certain MMG. cough the M60 cough.
Civil War was already hinted at in the 20-Year Update, and kind of before that, with all the issues the Commonwealth had with succession issues and internal rebellions by certain regions wanting to be independant. Also, somewhat in the Suns with the Capellan March and Draconis March issues.
The FWL was a House of Cards that should have fallen with the collapse of the Star League. That would have been a wild setup.
Victor was not a bad character, he was only bad when the authors wanted to write him that way, same for any of the other characters in the game. And the books where Victor is made to be the fool are normally the ones that get the worse review for that reason, which in turn means the next book the same writer pens is already going to be under the gun from the readers. Clearly, Reqiuem has it that everyone is out to get Katherine. Her character is somehow the savior the Inner Sphere needed and should have been the Supreme Ruler (TM) of Mankind ruling from the Golden Throne on Terra (TM), where the spice flows. The mindpowers of the Sisters and Bemdu (TM) are there to guide her into the next level of transition so mankind can advance on its path to enlightenment, so says the Book of Blake, 3:9-3 ALL HAIL CAMERON!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/20/22 11:43 PM
1.147.83.253
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Quote:
The government can not just take your patented item and mass produce them
Sorry to burst your bubble – but yes they can there are two mediums within the USA
1. The Bayh-Dole Act of 1980
2. 28 USC Section 1498
Quote:
how many space fights win and hold a world?
Depends on the game.
Quote:
In the game, they have loader mechs
1st Mech - Machie – Production Year 2439 – midway through the Age of War
1st Colony – New Earth 2116
Thus between these two dates for all colonists there were no loader mechs – so how are you going to move your heavy equipment? Perhaps with a crane attached to the back of your Tractor or maybe a trailer attached to your tractor?
Muti-purpose vehicles to fulfill many roles within the colony are required.
Question what minimal equipment is required for a colony – have you ever attempted a list? Suggest you look into this.
So you are suggestion during the age of colonization people should use sleds and mass people power to move heavy equipment into place similar to building the pyramids?
Quote:
The Houses did have scout units out looking
And hidden worlds with bases on them – did they have ships out looking for these?
Quote:
My point with the computer is that the systems won't be compatible
Question – when did my computer in my SLDF era BattleMech get its OS shifted over? As the Mech has been in my family for many generations and I don’t have this on any of the documents …
Also my dropship and Jump-ship are both SL era – when did their OS get migrated over
Or are the OS for a SLDF vehicles etc different? – so when a SLDF defected to my house did I have to request they fix their computers 1st
Also the Helm Memory Core – did we need to find an old computer first that could read it?
Quote:
did have the other Houses helping them out economically
And what happens when you are confronted with an existential threat like the clans – then what?
Just going to hold back as the Clans are not a threat after they destroy the FC and the DC – they won’t go after the FWL.
Clearly Karagin needs to google the lend lease act 1941 and understand the ramifications of what is going on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
Question how many reservists are allowed to take home a tank or a mobile missile battery?
How many European States only allow small arms in every house?
Quote:
The civil war was going to happen with or without him.
And if Victor did not get involved – how long would it take the JAG to arrest all dissident commanding officers and for Loki to take all renegade Lords?
Quote:
He came to take the throne back from the blood thirsty family member.
Again – PROVE IT!!!!! – as far as the ordinary citizen goes no one knows who killed Katherine / Victor’s Mother. And no one knows of Katherines antics with regards to Jump-ships – so again as far as the ordinary citizen knows is that she has acted to save the Lyran half during the start of a war of Victor’s own making and she was invited by Yvonne to take the throne – so the only one being blood thirsty is Victor when he call for a war – and then can never prove that Katherine Killed their brother – thus making it look as he wanted retribution – he was the one out for blood not her!
AGAIN – look at this from the perspective of the character in the game and not in the perspective of you reading all the books and getting all riled up.
Quote:
Joshua would never survive the trip back home
1. You don’t know that for sure.
2. It is better to act as a humanitarian and make the attempt that that of a “realist” and appear to be callous and without a human heart.
3. Victor never gave Joshua’s parents the opportunity to make the trip – information blackout! – he made the decision for them.
Quote:
But in the war game, scouting for lost treasure is not the top priority for writers.
Problem – what happens if one house can gain an advantage over all others if they were the only one to find a vast SL treasure hoard.
Again Logic and Reason – as well as understanding the primary duty of Commanding Officer of a Vast Army – could it be that Kerensky is unaware of his duty and just doesn’t care about his liege lord?
Quote:
You say Victor was never making decisions for the FC, yet have no proof of this.
Where does it ever state that he needed to visit his administrative retainers in order to receive government updates that require his attention / signature – that then need to be sent via ComStar back to the Capital Worlds for execution?
No retinue – no decision making – hence proof of his perfidy.
Too bad he showed he was far worse!
Bugeye – how many CIA ships are out there Vs how many military intelligence gathering ships / aircraft etc …
If you are using the Bugeye strictly for the Intel departments – waste of resources!
Really -keeping a father ignorant of the death of their child is OK? – question on what universe is this OK?
So if St. Ives went to war against the Clans and the CC attacked St. Ives – then you believe that the FS would sit on their hands and do nothing? Or do you believe that the FS would rise up and attack the CC? So do you believe there is no mutual defence pact between the FS and St. Ives? And if not isn’t this a little stupid?
Wrenches aren’t these adjustable? Were you thinking about spanners or ratchets and sockets?
Quote:
That was part of the reason they revolted and joined the MoC.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Magistracy_of_Canopus
“for the most part the Magistracy stayed out of interstellar affairs until 3030, when it allied with the rebellious Duchy of Andurien”
So 20 years too early?
So yes parliament would have strung up Thomas for damaging their economic renaissance.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/21/22 12:00 AM
70.118.172.64
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One thing that Alaric could do with his new Star League is to bring the Sea Foxes/Diamond Sharks, whatever the flavor of the Month is their name this year, into the fold entirely and set them up as both the arms makers and leading source for new jumpships and HPG parts. That would most certainly cement his control on things. That is, if the rumors are true, certain parties inside the Fox/Sharks are selling. That could be a big coup for him and the ilClan to have the HPG network back up, and running, say, within the next five years game time.
It would put a big crimp on the CapCon's little military adventurism and might even halt some of the Combine's advancement into the Suns. Not sure how it would help the former Empire and Falcon worlds, but it would be a rude awakening for all when it happens.
Remember, he didn't destroy Republic R&D sites, and they did surrender to him, so he has the whole house of wax to play with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/21/22 12:06 AM
70.118.172.64
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Speaking of the FWL, I am surprised that the CapCon didn't make moves to grab more worlds from them versus playing grab behind with ROTS. Far easier target, weaker military, thus a more accessible prize and one that would have allowed them to have more of a front with the ROTS, that could have given them an edge to get in there, but instead, we see them play the game of "old Capellan worlds must be saved" and once more right back in the backwaters of the game they go.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/21/22 12:58 AM
45.51.181.83
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Depends on the game? We are talking about Battletech, and when asked how many space fights win and hold worlds, you say depends on the game? This is definitely an answer by someone looking to just argue.
So you believe they would have a farming tractor loading and unloading heavy equipment? There are plenty of specially built vehicles that do that without needing to be changing attachments. A simple forklift with a semi and flat bed trailer comes to mind. Most cargo ships have cranes and other equipment to unload. Just as an air conditioning company relies on a crane to move acs to roofs, it would stand that a dedicated ship have those on it. Once off loaded, then it is the colonists problem. Which would be using man power. Not sure why this is an problem to understand. How many tractors did the have before 1800? They moved a lot of cargo then, and again, look at the pyramids in Egypt. They didn't have this stuff at that point.
The information the IS had about the Comstar/WOB hidden worlds was a long game of deleting that information on top of saying they glowed in the dark from the wars. When something is that dangerous, people avoid it, as well as delete the jump coordinates so there is no accidental jumps into a dead system. There is always a way to find a system. Just look at the stars and calculate where it really is. SO hidden worlds aren't hidden. It is very likely those systems were still known, just not visited.
Also, the scouts out looking were on planets looking for bases. So finding a world is not the same as finding a hidden base on a world.
You just answered your own question. Being in the family for generations, it is highly likely to have been jury rigged a few times over. Just get it working until you got money to fix it, then never did. The hack held and it was forgotten. Or the person that did it died without telling anyone it was hacked. How many times did you have to put in a part from a different mech or even company? You need it running now, so change out the fitting from one company to another as it is back ordered for several months. Sound about like real life?
How many times have you updated your computer on the mech? It may well have changed the OS during one of the times it was in the bay. Faulty radar? Your out of date OS doesn't work with the new equipment. Sound like real life?
The answer of how long it would take to root out the rebels is not something that can be answered. Just like the Black Dragons in the DC, they have never been fully defeated. Also, as she continued her reign of terror, more would join the cause. The civil war was already going on before Victor joined. It just wasn't declared as such.
The books prove Katherine stole the throne and started a bloody purge of all that did not worship her. As Katherine had her people saying Victor killed her mother, do you think there wasn't those saying Katherine did? They would have released the information they could. There is no popular uprising to save Katherine because people knew she did it. Her actions spoke just as loud as a bull horn.
She gave up worlds that was won in a war before she was born. Just up and left all those people that were part of the LC. She ran from the FWL instead of going in and removing yet another chunk of the FWL to remove the Mariks from their side. She betrayed the FC with cowardice. This is not someone who is considered honorable, and when they found out other lies, they would question her story. She was pulled out of the dinner just before the bomb went off. There is no such thing as being that lucky. And with the nobles settling down the population, the truth was out there. Even those that hated Victor was getting the truth out there. And Katherine running into the clans arms really puts the nail in that coffin.
We do know he would not make it. He was dying before the decision could have been made. And with that, the family could have visited Joshua at any time. Arrangements would be made to allow it. So that excuse is debunked.
There is no doubt that the Cameron line was dead. The council stated so and told Kerensky to stand down. Besides having a fleet of Star Destroyers pop out his back side, what could be done? Gather the loyal forces, and make sure Amaris didn't have a power base to draw from, then start removing him from the worlds of the TH.
Where does it ever state that he needed to visit his administrative retainers in order to receive government updates that require his attention / signature – that then need to be sent via ComStar back to the Capital Worlds for execution?
I love that one. I said the same thing about him not being tied down to a desk in the capital, and got a load of crap thrown at me. I guess you are just trying to get an argument going.
Where did it ever say he did not have people carrying orders back and forth? He had constant updates coming in thru multiple people. Curtis is but one of those examples.
Given you wanted the FS to send everything it had to the clan lines, and got upset when I said it wasn't smart, I got a crap load of there is no reason to have large amounts of forces guarding the FS portion. I will bet you forgot that, so go back and reread the other posts. You will find other information as well, on why we have the concepts on your thinking down. The responses show what is going on.
Actually, Cresent wrenches are bad for tight bolts. They tend to round the corners. There are set wrenches that do a far better job of tightening/removing bolts and nuts. Grade 8 bolts in aluminum are a pain to get out when you round the corners off.
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Requiem
07/21/22 04:48 AM
1.147.112.29
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Depends on the game? …. We are talking about BattleSPACE
Why can’t a multi-purpose vehicle be utilized for both tractor and for heavy equipment?
How many hidden worlds surround a world that is habitable 1,000 or 2,000? – and how long will it take to visit every single one in the hope of finding the hidden base? So hidden worlds are just that hidden unless there is another means of detecting the hidden base.
You just answered you own question – in completing the jerry rigging you do realise this is a major overhaul which will require massive number of pars to obtain it to work.
And this happened with every mech of the same class?
Katherine
Started a bloody purge – where and when – book and page no.
Gave up worlds – which ones -book and page no.
Yes the books prove ….. however, how does your average citizen know this?
She gave up worlds – which one?
Ran from the FWL – to protect the Lyran half – thus the Lyrans loved her, however as for those in the Suns they thought betrayed.
Cowardice – when and where – book and page no.
She was pulled out of the dinner just before the bomb went off. There is no such thing as being that lucky. – and yet how many times has this occurred in history?
Getting the truth out there – how, example please book and page no.
Katherine running into the clans – how did the average person know this? – book and page no.
So once more how did your average citizen know these?
The family could have visited any time – question can the monarch of the UK visit any country anytime?
There was no doubt that the Cameron line was dead – and those in the FWL or those in the FS what about them? And also how did Kerensky know the entirety of the Cameron family on Terra were dead? And for that matter how did the council know? Didn’t Amaris initiate a total communication blackout?
Still have yet to answer these questions.
Curtis? Who???
Send majority of those equipped. – not all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/21/22 07:58 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, we have asked you for your ALT to have the same level ground to see your POV and POD. You continue to ignore this simple request, YET, you then proceede to argue your points FROM that ALT as if it's canon known facts to all of us.
So either put the ALT up here on Sarna as a stand-alone topic or please just stop. You are right back at your usual SOP. The points made from your ALT about Victor and Katherine have been debunked, and the other points have also neem debunked.
Why won't you share your ALT?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/21/22 08:24 AM
1.147.126.233
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Quote:
then proceed to argue your points FROM that ALT
Fishing for information?
So sorry but this guess is incorrect.
Really, I thought it was obvious why I will never share this!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/21/22 11:40 AM
45.51.181.83
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Ok misspelled Curatis. The person from FC intel that was protecting and updating Victor thru that time. He is one of a very few named that was doing this.
As you will not bother actually reading the books, as all the answers to your questions are there, I'm done with the asking the same questions when the answers were all printed.
The entire Chaos march was LC worlds that the coward Katherine gave up. The lives lost when she did so were Lyran. All those people that migrated there for work, and didn't get out when the military was pulled out.
The worlds she started military action on, where part of the purge.
As the books said the information was out there, they do not say exactly how or what.
A monarch can arrange a visit. Given the nature of the circumstance, it would probably be approved quickly.
The SL had ways to get the news out. The video footage from inside the throne room would be sent out immediately, and by all means they had available.
All those questions were answered if you had read the books word for word.
And the alt will never be shown as it is perfect logic. As seen by all the snippets brought here, yet constantly shows to be fully flawed, just like the canon story.
As I said, I am done with the crap thrown in, just to argue.
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Karagin
07/21/22 12:40 PM
70.118.172.64
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Yes, it has gotten to the point that it's the same questions asked again and again. Regardless of what we point to. Even with my dislike of the Jihad stuff, I have read the canon stuff, and then I pick it apart based on what is present to us as coming before; that way, if TPTB is playing magic, hand waving to make the story happen just because, then that can be brought to the forefront for a discussion as it should be and has been done.
With this stuff, there is no hand waving; it is all my way is better, so that is the facts regardless of anything else. Then, when you or I counter with canon facts against his points, he changes his point to claim the canon is still wrong, and here is why.
Requiem, please post your ALT version of the Battletech History and such. That would go a long way to end the bickering and give the rest of us the same playing field as you have. Otherwise, we end up returning to the same point you keep returning to.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/21/22 07:21 PM
1.147.65.181
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Curatis
Intelligence / Counterintelligence / Espionage operative only – who supplies information on a very limited subject (His Mother’s assassination) – so how is he going to assist Victor in regards to his Government’s administrative requirements for each of the government’s independent departments?
The answer is he doesn’t – within the cannon writings there is no individual / group of individuals, as his retainers, who assist with all administrative requirements of keeping Victor informed / providing documents for signature / providing communication updates from the Capital … and the list of duties goes on and on …. Thus, can we say that Victor has just passed the buck to his “Regent” and he has just walked off to play soldier? The lack of evidence provided within canon would suggest that the answer is yes, he has just dumped it all of his duties on his “Regent” and has just walked away from running the empire …. Therefore, he is quite clearly an incompetent ruler.
The problem is yes, I have read the books, and yes I can actually identify all faults as written. The problem is the majority just accept on face value only and do not bother enquire as to the multitude of issues due to the poorly written books and do not want others identifying the issues.
Chaos March
This is actually a very interesting subject and can be discussed in in its own forum.
The overriding question is - Which State actually did own this area of space Lyrans or Fed. Suns? The answer is based on Time of ownership – pre or post 4th Succession War.
The wedding toast would suggest that they are Lyran. – hence the Sarna March is technically a part of the Lyran State and is technically under the control of the Archon.
Then there is the issue of the Tikonov Free Republic – post death of Pavel Ridzik Ardan Sortek (Fed Suns) administered the Republic until elections were called, however this short lived state eventually was absorbed into the Sarna March – and again part of the Lyran State.
However, and this is the rub, legally the border between the Suns and the Lyans pre 4th Succession War is Terra. Therefore technically with the dissolving of the FC partnership – the border immediately reverts back to pre 4th Succession border position q.e.d. Terra.
Thus legally with the destruction of the FC partnership the area in question belongs instantly to the Suns – and as such becomes Victor’s headache.
Thus Katherine’s position of calling back the troops is legally correct as with the destruction of the FC partnership this area of space is no longer Lyran – and if she did keep troops there then technically Victor could say that she was illegally holding Suns worlds and he can declare war on the Lyran half – thus we are back to the argument of Victor starting a civil War (again).
Thus Katherine did the only thing she could based upon all legal requirements – pull back and leave the area to the Suns in order to ensure that Victor could not call for a civil war upon the Lyran half.
Thus the Suns are technically responsible for the creation of the Chaos March for not being able to restore law and order within this area of space.
(even though the Lyrans held a majority of the Suns jump ships at the time)
Thus with the return of the Jump-ships it is Victor’s responsibility to clean up the mess that is the Chaos March – his inaction in not doing so in the thunderous.
Worlds she started military action were part of the purge – you do realis that purge is an incorrect term of what is occurring on these worlds?
The Lords of these worlds are openly in conflict with their legal Liege Lord – thus Katherine is legally allowed to dispatch military forces o bring them to heel.
Thus the correct legal term is a police action.
Yes, a monarch can arrange a visit – however as none were ever arranged by the Marik family including his Mother Sophina (dd. 3057 – between 12 June to 16 August – whist Joshua dd. 20 May same year – so she went to the grave never knowing that her son was dead – so this is on Victor also), sister Isis, and other siblings Janos III, Christopher, and Jessica were never allowed to visit NAIS as far as we know – which is the Thunderous as Thomas (“his father”) would have to approve all visits indicates a very unusual relationship with his “son”.
The SL had ways to get the news out – yes this is correct – However, as no one except for those in the inner circle of Amaris’ court knew the fate of the Cameron family the idea that they knew they were all dead is highly speculative.
Any report to Kerensky would this have been – Cameron Family Status: UNKNOWN.
As far as the books read – Kerensky was unable to gain accurate information until he took the capital. Thus, as he did not immediately make a push on Terra demonstrates that he is incompetent.
Oh yes all of these questions were answered in their entirety word for word (heavy on the satire!)
Quote:
And the alt will never be shown as it is perfect logic. As seen by all the snippets brought here, yet constantly shows to be fully flawed, just like the canon story.
Have already made judgement - As I said, I am done with the c_ _ _ thrown in, just to argue - prior to supply of evidence! Why bother providing?
Not supplying – it has no relevance at all to canon … no character from canon, all realms different … so why bother when the judgement is already in?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/23/22 02:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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Fishing?
Are we fishing for shark? Swordfish? Tuna? Sea Bass?
When is this set to happen?
I hope I can get on the charter. It would be nice to spend a day on the water.
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Requiem
07/23/22 08:39 PM
1.147.82.21
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Curatis
Also: How can he advise Victor on all governmental department correspondence when for the most part he is out and about attempting to find evidence at Victor’s insistence?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Duke_of_the_Sarna_March
Victor Steiner-Davion 3051 onwards – the same time as the conference on Outreach!
Categorically, therefore, the Chaos March is without question Victor’s responsibility – due to his inaction the Chaos March eventuated as well as returning to the CC.
I find it interesting that Victor is now a Duke of a March and yet his is remaining with his unit rather than ruling as all other March Lords are expected to do so.
We can therefore say that without any reservation he is INCOMPETENT!
Joshua Marik – arranging a visit.
Outreach Summit - 12 Jan 3051
Shortly thereafter Joshua will be transferred to NAIoS … note he was on Outreach in 3051
Book – Blood Legacy – identifies him as 5 years old (b – 3046) - though this would mean he was born prior to his parent’s marriage in 3047 - whereas all other books has him being born in 3048 - demonstrating an error in the writing of this book!
Thus was 3 when arrived in NAIoS – and Dd 20 May 3057 at 9.
Question how many memories does Joshua have of his parents and “sister” if for the past 6 years he has been in NAIoS?.
Consequently, we are expected to believe that during this entire time none of his parents (including his mother!!!!) or Isis (now 17) were allowed to visit him (As Thomas arranged for her to be married to Sun-Tzu in 3052)?
Striped Marlin which confirmed my belief that once a little information is supplied as to the lack of comparability any request to post will dissolve in the wind – and can also be seen as the Thunderous!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/24/22 04:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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Put up or shut up.
Only one person has any idea on the response put up, and they have bragged about how perfect it was.
Now, they will not show anyone how it is written. There is no insight into how the alt really is, as we only get bits and pieces of it, and nothing more.
As it looks like only arguing about it will bring any attention to it, this is done until all can read it.
So from now on, all responses from me are put up or shut up.
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Requiem
07/25/22 10:08 PM
1.147.82.21
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So rather than accepting what was / and was not given (in the form of his “fiefdom”) Victor continues with his rant in desiring what he should not have been allowed given his past performance and actions– is the word Petulant?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/25/22 10:31 PM
70.118.172.64
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So are we going to see the ALT Requiem as its own topic? That would be the best thing to do. That way, we can all read it, offer input, see why you keep falling back on the points you do, and then we will see your point of departure and viewpoint on why and how things changed, so I highly suggest that you take ghostrider's advice and just post the ALT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Pht
08/11/22 12:33 AM
98.21.88.138
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Quote:
Question – how can two clans form a Star League? As does this mean that the FC could have formed a rump star league also?
Question – given all the evidence as to what the first star league represented – books, videos etc – How can the Clans even say, with a straight face, that they are forming a Star League (as per first) when it is clear they have absolutely no idea what the Star League is?
Question – does this mean the Clans will undergo a reformation to what they should be ie. SLDF?
Question – What are TPTB thinking in going down this path – do they even understand who and what the Clans truly represent - as this is setting the game up for another Jihad!
All I can say is that I am thankful for creating my own Alt. as this history has completely gone off the rails (in my opinion).
Um I don't think the clans care if they are forming a star league the same as the first one.
It seems to function as a legend for them, and if what I've read in the novels is true, or even mostly true, I don't think the rank and file or even the warriors are *able* to know how distorted their history is.
I would be very interested to see if there is any canon answer to the question of how historically informed the average clanner is about true history. The clans are very conformist.
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ghostrider
08/11/22 01:08 AM
45.51.181.83
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There is canon information that does say how the average clansman feels about the SL, and having the clans make it live again.
Most crusaders want to go in and remove the house realms and rebuild the SL in their ways.
Most wardens believe the clans were to remain removed from the IS to protect it. From what, we haven't heard. They too, want a new SL, and would like it in their image, but destroying the IS to do it isn't the way.
The clans lore has most thinking all the worlds in the IS are paradises, and that those living there are barbarians. You probably already know this from the books.
Depending on how long you have been with the game, the older books tell the story. Not sure how much was changed in the newer books.
I believe you know the trueborn/freeborn issues as well.
Until the clan caste system is returned back to the way of all castes having an equal say, a new SL is not going to be the glory filled time they are told it will be. It will just be the same thing they have now, only in the IS. The warriors will dictate what is to be done, and the rest do it. The concept of being able to lawfully and without being killed to screw off, will come as a shock and cause a lot of problems with them. The tight grip the warriors have, seems to have continued into the future 100 years, but this is a time frame I don't have information on.
Understand that what Requiem presents is his vision of how the game should be. So if you want the real story, go to canon sources.
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