Karagin
08/09/22 10:25 AM
70.118.172.64
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I doubt Katherine will be an essential figure unless something happens to sunder the FC in two. Then she might be thrust into the role like her sister was, having no real idea what to do. Beyond that, she would not be anything more than Victor's sister. One he might trust, but he also might keep at arm's length as well. And it's very likely that all the kids, except for Victor and his next oldest brother, are in the FS side of the FC for safety reasons, which would make complete sense.
The Joshua Debacle, yeah, that is not likely to play out as canon. Hanse can offer the help of NAIS, but given that everything changes once the Clans renew their offensive operation post-Outreach Summit, that might prevent his ever going to New Avalon and also recall he is already on Outreach being treated by the Dragoons medical teams. So he may end up staying there.
Vlad is going to Vlad. He will be the foil for Phelan, and those two will do their thing. Given that there will be no chance of Vlad becoming Khan of Clan Wolf any time soon or ever, it's, as you said, a different future past Terra falling.
The Shadow War is likely going on still, but it's just that, a shadow war. The intelligence agencies of make strikes, and the other side counters. Reports of accidents, both civilian and industrial, make the papers.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/09/22 10:44 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans would not want to lose a warship because it would take time to replace it; that is very true. Also, the loss would be a tactical victory for the Inner Sphere Houses, which would do all they could to use it as a boon to gain more support for the fight. Still, it would also cause the Clans to change their operational planning again, which might be the biggest issue for them given how fixed on a plan they seem to be at this point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/09/22 06:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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I don't think Victor would head to the FS side, as his character would fight the clans in the LC until the last. As his 4 brothers and sisters are there, and possibly Melissa, there would be little need for him to go. Yes, he is the leader of both realms, but I think he would 'fight' the return to FS order. Nondi and even Adam, have shown they are not up to the task of running the LC portion of the FC, so unless someone else is sent to deal with it, he would remain there, though not sure how effective outside of the military he would be.
So are we going to keep the suicide run in? I was assuming it failed or didn't happen, so the year of peace did not happen. The Outreach meeting would not have happened, which is why there is no truce nor anything to stop the clans from continuing on during that time frame.
If it did happen, I would propose having something else happen, then the year of peace. As we know the clans could have full continuous communications with the invaders, I would think that they could promote another leader without all the clans having to be face to face in person. The initial rage could well drive the invaders to take far more territory quicker, as they are less concerned about their own safety, beyond normal clan norms. Even using warships to take out defenses and bombard worlds. Once this passes, they would realize they screwed up and remove or severely restrict warships useages.
Maybe with Vlad, you can remove him entirely by having the techs prevent Phelan from rescueing him if the suicide attempt happens. Remove the luck of the belt buckle from holding him down, or the unit it was caught on broke. Or have Phelan's rage break and him just toss Vlad out of the breach.
The canon story does say how much some clans relied upon having the warships be part of a bid. It may be a safety blanket for some. Maybe they expect a repeat of Kerensky's assault on Terra, which included the warships fighting and bombarding positions. Having them removed would definitely destroy that dream.
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Karagin
08/09/22 07:58 PM
70.118.172.64
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No, I agree Victor would stay with the 10th and fight; his other siblings would be sent to safety, though. He wants to be seen outside his father's shadow and his cousins, so he will stay. The rest of the Steiner branch of the family is unfit to run a Canopian pleasure house.
I say keep it, but the year of peace doesn't mean the Inner Sphere suddenly get's plot armor yes, the Dragoons help them out, but nothing will change overnight. Some front-line units will get weapons upgrades, but that is about it. Rotation of units from the other side of the FedCom to the front will start, but it will take time to get them in place. Same for the Combine. They will be refitted, but it won't be a quick thing.
The FWL will need to retool, which alone will take time, and in some cases, it stops production lines from being retooled. The year of peace gives the Inner Sphere some time to bring new units up, that is about it, and share tactics and make some longer-term plans. We might see merc units cutting and running and others stepping in to backfill, but we won't see high-tech mechs in huge numbers on the front lines.
Vlad is a minor issue, and he can live or die. He is a foil for Phelan, the idea that Phelan saves him, but Vlad is scared badly could be something that comes along later. Ideas to play with.
Bidding will change as things change, but since warships are part of the Clan bidding, they will be used as each wants them to be used. Some will use them as the "ULTIMATE WEAPON," while others will use them as nothing more than more powerful artillery platforms. One thing that will change the Clans will pull more fighters back to protect the warships and prevent another bridge strike. I am willing to bet they will send word back to the homeworlds of this vulnerability in the design of warships so it can be fixed going forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/09/22 09:27 PM
1.147.88.67
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I doubt Katherine will be an essential figure unless something happens to sunder the FC in two.
Sorry, but isn’t this at the discretion of the Game Master who is constructing the story?
I could easily kill of Victor and make her the protagonist.
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Joshua Marik
Or, with full access to the Helm memory core Joshua is saved – a cure is found!
Thomas Marik’s (fake) relationship with ComStar cools for their inaction and perfidy in not offering medical assistance to his son – though he is still their puppet due to being the fake Marik.
Thus putting any future FWL / ComStar relationship in jeopardy.
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Vlad
If Ulric becomes Il-Khan due to the death of Leo Showers
How can Natasha Kerensky become Khan – as 1. She is tainted by being a member of the Dragoons; 2. She has been living as a Inner Sphere person for how long now, thus tainting her even further; 3. Being absent from the Clan for the majority of her life - all (majority of) her peers (past supporters) are now long gone – thus she has little to no political allies within the Named Wolves to support her ascension politically; 4. No one her age could ever be considered for the position of Khan – a solhama unit however would take her!
So unless TPTB want to play silly buggers again, her being Khan, is not going to happen!
Also her warrior skills – she has been fighting IS warriors for how long now – so wouldn’t her past skill as a Clan warrior dulled over the years – thus any circle of equal / positioning trial would not favour an old granny warrior when compared to a new younger Clan warrior.
A young named warrior, however, with the right combat record – and with named supporters throughout the Clan – could become Khan.
If Phelan objects, however, as his foil it is up to the game maser to decide how this will progress …
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shadow war
Yes, I agree this is still a possibility.
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The Clans would not want to lose a warship because it would take time to replace it
Is the HPG relay from the IS back to the Kerensky Cluster up and running? If so they can have a substitute warship in just over 6 months (the time to travel to the IS).
Otherwise, just over a year.
Remember the Clan’s maintain warship storage areas in space – as seen in the Wolverine exodus – so how many warships each Clan actually maintains is unknown.
The only factor that could slow down the transfer is the availability of a crew – how many spare crews are held on hand for just such a request? My bet is the Clans have more ships than crews!
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I don't think Victor would head to the FS side, as his character would fight the clans in the LC until the last.
Sorry but in all reality Victor would be immediately transferred to command company of the Marshal of the Armies – Morgan Hasek-Davion – where he would be expected to learn how to command the entire FC military in the field against a belligerent enemy.
Him swanning about as commander of the 10th just proves what a complete fool he really is – and by the way when you graduate from an academy you are NEVER given command of a battalion – a lance yes, a battalion, never! So, can we finally get a little realism???
Also Nondi is not in charge of the military during the Clan Invasion as Mogan out-ranks her and is supposed to be in the LC conducting the war (even though TPTB have actually put him in a box somewhere in space as they do not want him interfering with the Clan Invasion by actually commanding the FC troops to victory!)
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Clan invasion 3050 - Katherine Morgan Steiner-Davion Bn 3032 -age 18; Peter Ardan Steiner-Davion Bn 3035 – age 15; Arthur Andrew Steiner-Davion Bn 3037 – age 13; and Yvonne (?) Steiner-Davion Bn 3039 – age 11
This is where I really have issue with the story – these children’s parents are supposed to be Hanse and Melissa and you expect me to believe that with all their education and love from their parents they ALL (and yes I did say all!) turn out to be basket cases of the worst order … so once again can I ask for a little more reality as there is NO WAY IN HELL that Melissa would allow their personalities to turn out as written!
Thus, I suggest that in your what if scenario that you ‘actually fix’ their personalities to that of a Noble Warrior House within the IS (given they are now at war with the Clans – and every member of the Royal family should be demonstrating their part as a member of the services! Even Queen Elizabeth was in the Military during WW2!!!) My suggestion - Scrap the canon personalities as a waste of time and effort!
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keep the suicide run in?
The Battle of Radstadt? Tyra Miraborg?
No, it really is not necessary. Even in the canon story it is quite irrelevant as no IS forces of any of the great houses actually make any serious preparations for the return of the Clans – no new strategies are put in place – no one even decides to turn the economies of any of their states over to total war production – none of Great Houses decide to reform the SL and the SLDF as a unified front against the Clans – so what’s the point?
TPTB has created a totally unrealistic situation when you consider their “Year of Peace”!
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The Outreach Meeting
Problem – if the Dragoons do not have a come to god moment and inform the wider community of their origins – once it comes out, and it will, and they (the Dragoons) did not inform the Great Houses then in all reality the will be labelled as fifth column – and hunted down!
So unless you want the Dragoons to be as dead as many other great mercenary units they will have to declare themselves for the IS and they will have to fight against the Clans as a consequence!
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Even using warships to take out defences and bombard worlds. Once this passes, they would realize they screwed up and remove or severely restrict warships usages.
IN MY OPINION!
As stated, many times before – How does any IS House Lord know that the Clans will not use a warship as they did upon Turtle Bay?
Where is the Priestesses of Delphi, The chicken entrails, The Ouija Boards, and finally the bloodhounds, that will inform them of the Clans decision not to use this tactic again?
Without a clear and defining statement by all the Clan’s Khans and their il-Khan there is no evidence to suggest they will not use an orbital bombardment in the future!
And when the Falcons threatened to use one in the future the IS has no choice at this stage but to consider every clan warship the greatest threat to IS safety. So unless the Clans provide the IS with ships of their own they will have no choice but to start a nuclear war.
Thus once more we have a story that has gone way off the rails of reality – can it be fixed soon?
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Warships
Can we finally get over this? We are in space – ships will be required – this will also include a Navy as no rational military would ever go into the void without a naval complement!
So can we finally get over this and allow them into the game?
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I agree Victor would stay with the 10th and fight
Really? Hanse’s older brother - how did he die? And we expect Hanse to allow Victor (a green as green grass) CO who does not deserve his position to remain in command of an RCT?
Can I laugh now?
Remember Victor is the Heir Designate!
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The FWL will need to retool
Every military industrial complex within the IS will have to retool once Clan tech has been reverse engineered!
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Some will use them as the "ULTIMATE WEAPON,"
Thus, as the IS does not have any other anti-warship weapon – nuclear war commences.
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I am willing to bet they will send word back to the home-worlds
What happens when the IS has their first warship slipping their docks and placed on active duty?
Sorry but this really needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 12:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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One of the things that would have to happen with bringing clantech to the IS houses is teaching the techs how to fix it. But then I didn't see anything about techs having issues with SL tech that came out. With different tech being completed in different realms, it is kind of amazing that the tech wasn't used specifically in the realm that did it. I believe it showed up in realms that would have gotten the tech last before the one that researched it.
The main issue I can see with rotating the troops from the far side of the FC/FS is time. Unless there is a huge jump in jumpships, they just won't have a lot of time to move the troops. The first thing would be get troops to the worlds that the others are being moved from, as these would be coming from the TC/CC borders. Both are hostile to the FS/FC. This is not saying it couldn't/wouldn't happen, just take a while.
Then comes the question of where to refit them at?
Defiance is the first thing to come to mind, but I don't think they will have the room or parts to do multiple regiments of refits at the same time. They would be scrambling to retool their lines to make the clan tech, and fit it into their existing production. Which would also need some time to work out some bugs. A Zeus with a clan erppc will have issues venting heat if it wasn't already upgraded with the IS erppc.
I would also think that designs using the omni concept would come out, but this would take time as well. I doubt it would be done before the clans restarted their push. Granted, I could see the omni tech being put in vehicles before mechs would get it. The open concept of vehicles, verses the tight confines of mechs issue.
The reason I question the pause is the clans are supposed to take Terra. The pause gives the IS some time to get things going to help them fight the clans. Not that it can't be overcome with other things. Such as the clans bringing in the reserves they have at the home worlds for a dramatic push.
Bidding would have to change, and it would be for the worse for the IS. The low bid would not be so low, as they would need more forces to take out targets faster and with less casualties. With the exception of the fear factor, Warships without others to fight, seems a waste. Where as the IS would be more willing to use them to bombard worlds, the clans would probably shy away from it after a time or two. There is no glory or honor in destroying an enemy from orbit. Not that it would stop them from doing so, but it would have to be a really unusual situation.
The discussion of warship designs, makes me really dislike the idea that a fighter craft can ram a warship taking out the CIC. This should be standard training when found out. I know BTechs targeting systems bite the big one, but that would be the primary area to shoot at. Right between the huge com towers. The observation/bidding area is ok to have the vulnerable placement, but not the thing that runs the ship.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:17 PM
70.118.172.64
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That is correct, time is the killer, and again no plot armor thus, the year of true to get Ulric as the new ilKhan after the suicide run by Tya (I think I got her name right) is not enough time for all the magic that happens in canon to have happened.
The troops will be showing up piecemeal and feed into the fighting that way. Imagine you don't know that world X has fallen, because while you were recharging at world W, the news didn't get to you, so you jump into a hostile jump point. That is the stuff that will be happening in both the FC and the DC.
The pause is fine; the Clans will need time to bring up supplies and troops, lulls will happen in war, and they can last a few too many months. Since we are talking about interstellar distances, a year would not be uncommon and considered very short.
I agree with you. The Point Defense Systems would have been upgraded after that on all Clan warships, as a matter of fact, not as on this was a one-off chance. They would have been ready for something like it on the off chance. Again this comes down to Mechs are King, everything else is third rate compared to mechs in this game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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As the Clans push deeper into the Inner Sphere towards Terra, their bidding should have changed already. They should have had numbers built in to deal with all the crazy ways the Inner Sphere forces weren't playing by their (Clan) rules, and they should have been adapting to these changes.
There should have been PGC ready to land right behind the front-line troops, with two missions, pacification of the rear areas and reinforcements of the front-line troops if needed. The Clans should have already begun to train counter-insurgent forces to deal with FC/DC holdout forces. Troops trained to go in and root them out. They should have moved to more combined arms sooner and used their tech and range to their advantage. Instead, we saw them written as ego-driven arrogant, narcissistic well; you can add all the colorful adjectives you want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:30 PM
70.118.172.64
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While Defiance Industries is an important part of the MIC for the FC, it is not the only damn company making mechs. It can fall, and the FC will still be around.
I don't see the FC leadership losing a war just to save it. They can evacuate the needed machines, techs, plans, etc...off-world to another location, and while that means a loss of production over time, they will get back what they lost once things are back up and running. This strategy has worked well for others in the past. Skye region can burn; it's one part of the whole, and it;'s value is has the same level as all of the other parts for the FC to worry about.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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Picture things like this: look at the WW2 fighting in the Pacific. If an island was too strong to take, it was bypassed. If it was truly needed, they took it regardless of what the enemy had on it or added to it. That is how interstellar fighting will be or should be. It's not like moving from point A to point B. It's going to be oh so the is system has this planet, which has this, but they have four times the force there than we can easily handle right now. However, similar resources and smaller numbers of defenders are strung out over four planets in the system. We can take that and hold it far easier with what we have.
Such places like Defiance will be blockaded at best or bypassed and dealt with later. There is no need to fight a stronger force when you can simply prevent them from getting supplies and stopping the forces there from leaving. So no I don't see Defiance as anything of importance beyond it;'s a factory world that can be taken with some better planning than slugging it out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/10/22 06:03 PM
101.177.88.129
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… bringing clan-tech to the IS … teaching the techs how to fix it.
With salvage initially there will always be issues – however, techs have been jerry rigging tech to keep them going for how long now?
As for when R&D reverse engineering models are produced by then significant techs should be available.
Other sources ….
Capturing Clan Techs – simple in-game possibility when raiding a clan held world.
Wolf’s Dragoons establishes a training facility on outreach – graduates then train others – who train others …. Etc. Chinese wall of training can be established to simplify training throughout a vast military.
No real problems – except initially.
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problem rotating the troops from the far side of the FC/FS is time.
Question
- are these troops permanently garrisoning their world due to a lack of Jump-ships?
- do they have access to local merchantmen vessels?
And yes – tyranny of distance will also play a part in any replacement units required. So will need to get those forces in close proximity to the battle to slow he clans down … whilst considering …
That said, however, will need to look at how many units were available during the 4th Succession War – then add some more …
Also if you have killed off the CC then your FC forces now have access to their Fleet of ships …
So, Command needs to identify what units they need and will need to get them into the fight asap …
And then ….
First – need Opfor training with Wolf’s Dragoons before being sent into the meat grinder – preparation – may also require weapons upgrade packs before going to the front – access to a large-scale facility or a large scale mobile refit vehicle station with the sole aim of minimising time to the front – or the Logistics is sent to the unit en route so that their techs can make the modifications whilst still in the drop-ships as it were.
Second – need to identify the correct land to optimize IS chance of success – then put the engineers to work building further traps etc.
Third – yes more IS omni designs need to be established to replace older mono package mechs. That said however even I could recognise that omni was the way of the future pre clan invasion. I wanted to take a crusader and make it omni way back when – so why didn’t Wolf’s Daragoons rearm he IS?
Remember the coin you pay in achieving your military objectives is the lives of your troops – just do not sell them cheaply!
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The reason I question the pause is the clans are supposed to take Terra.
If the Clans have taken Terra – then this is when the pause should be established!
The Clans then need to figure out what is next for them – they will need an investiture ceremony of the il-Khan and il-Clan – they will then need a grand meeting of all Khans (on Terra?) (even those from the Kerensky Cluster will have to travel to the IS) to pay homage and to determine what is next etc.
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Bidding would have to change, and it would be for the worse for the IS.
Question have the clans learned anything or will they act the same?
So in reality bidding?
The real issue is the number of Clans in the IS post capture of the Terra – the size of their forces and how many IS forces remain to fight them – and how well updated are they to engage these fresh new troops?
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… destroying an enemy from orbit
Problem – once introduced the gams shifts immediately to a Jihad setting of nuclear war!
Also neither the IS nor the Clans should have an appetite for using orbital bombardment as the consequences are too onerous.
Also there is no glory in loosing a war – thus if you can win through orbital bombardment it will be used … How many times has this been used within the history of the game?
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Kamikaze
Like it or not if TPTB do not allow anti warship missiles in asap and warships are still present in the combat zone then the IS has no choice but to resort to Kamikaze + nuclear weapons.
Or you allow the IS a naval fleet into the game.
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Tya (I think I got her name right)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tyra_Miraborg
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not enough time for all the magic that happens in canon to have happened.
Initially you are going to have to kill off some of your units – with orders to drag out the combat for as long as possible – guerrilla warfare!
This time saved will be used to get troops and engineers in place!
Then there is the issue of every world is an island and high tech – high population worlds – they should have hundreds of regiments – so good luck for the clans getting though any time soon!
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That is the stuff that will be happening in both the FC and the DC.
First, has survivors been able to exit the system?
Second, did the unit have access to black box Tech. if so a message should have been sent.
So the chance of mis-jump into enemy territory can be minimized …
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As the Clans push deeper into the Inner Sphere towards Terra, their bidding should have changed already.
Yes, but politics will always play a part – remember what Natasha did to Phelan in sending him down on his own!
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There should have been PGC ready to land right behind the front-line troops
Problem – The Clans by their very nature are as a warrior society built upon racial superiority through genetic engineering. Thus they cannot show weakness and they cannot allow too many freeborn into their warrior club – as that would defeat the purpose of being a warrior society with genetically improved individuals.
So no – by the very nature of the clans there cannot ever be a vast number of PGCs – they will always be a very small number – that is unless you want to kill of the genetic superiority of the clans and adopt a liberal all people are equal mentality – then you can have all the PGCs you want.
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military industrial complex
How many new designs were introduced post clan invasion? Thus how easy should it be to establish new Mech production facilities?
My point is that the number of manufacturing facilities should be easily established upon every high tech / high population world – only restraint is Logistics – the metal to make it, if the system has the vast quantities also or can get it shipped in hen there really isn’t a problem to establishing a military industrial complex on almost every world if necessary.
His is also one of the biggest black holes of the game – The IS should be able to out produce the Clans at a factor of over 1000 to one f you adopt a total war economic development scenario …. The Clans do NOT have the people and they most definitely do not have the mass production facilities that the IS is capable of producing if necessary!
So how were the clans ever expected to get anywhere within the IS without TPTB cheating for them?
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They can evacuate the needed machines, techs, plans, etc...off-world to another location
Has everyone forgotten the magnificent effort of both the Russians and the Chinese during WW2 with regards to their manufacturing facilities – dismantling, transporting them vast distances – rebuilding and maintaining vast production output …
And yet they believe this cannot be replicated in the future?
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look at the WW2 fighting in the Pacific.
Yes I agree this is how the IS would fight.
Problem – the Clans psychological profile says that if there is an enemy force in front of them, no natter the size, then they must prove their genetic superiority by beating them down – proving their military prowess no matter what!
Maintaining a dogma of racial (genetic) superiority – such as the Clans – comes with a massive baggage of psychological issues! This is but one.
Such places like Defiance – will attract immediate attention – will be bid for and attacked asap no matter what the defending force size is – after all they a former SLDF military outpost and as such must be owned by them (Clans) and not these filthy heathen IS barbarians!
Sorry but there is an imperative as far as the clans would see that this facility be returned to its rightful owners and sanitized of all IS taint asap!
Remember you are dealing with Mongol warriors with a massive genetic superiority complex that needs to be proved to everyone every single day!
Thus you will most definitely end up slugging it out as the clans cannot see any other way!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 06:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the damage the others had taken by the 'weak barbarians' even the most arrogant clans would realize they needed more supplies then they thought. The IS tends to go in waves for things, with infantry and vehicles being among the first into battle, then the mechs after the enemy is hot and low on munitions. This is completely opposite as well as not happening with the vehicles in clan trials.
The open field battles is where the clans should learn hovers are not as pathetic as they look.
The issue I do have with the continuity of canon is when they introduced the sensor baffling material, and yet nothing heard of it except the adventure pack it came in. But then that would give the IS the power, not the clans.
The counter insurgency troops is a point TPTB screwed up on. The clans supposedly trained the Dragoons with it, yet couldn't figure it out during their invasion? The 7th Kommandos is a great example of this. Tactics used against the clans would not work against the IS well. Man sized traps is not something the clans would do, as they just challenge each other, not sneak around in bases.
Defiance came up when thinking of the troops moving from the TC border to the clan border. Except for Twycross, I couldn't think of another factory or area those troops could stop and upgrade their equipment with. Galantia (merc central) might have the facilities, but maybe not the parts.
And that brings up a point. If the C-bill and Comstar falls, what happens with hiring mercs? There is no 'neutral' entity to deal with payment and punishing them.
The 'island' hopping happened during the invasion in canon. The clans only had to remove jumpships from the systems and the forces there could do nothing but eat thru their supplies. As stated before, the clans were not worried about destroying jumpships. They had plenty more and could make them. So destroying them wasn't a problem.
The only real issue with Defiance is when it would be dealt with, even just a blockade. It is far enough out of the normal path to Terra, that it would probably be dealt with after Terra is taken.
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Karagin
08/10/22 09:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans should have spent the year of figure out leadership changes and also figuring out what was working and what the hell was not working for them. Supply issues should have been the most significant, and their arrogance blinded them, but it should not have. Quartermasters and master techs should have been ordering parts and supplies, knowing what they would need. Sorry but regardless of how minor that stuff is to the writers, it plays to the damn story. That's how it goes: bullets, spare parts, POL, medical, and food. I get it; very few authors and TPTB served in the military, and very few were in the Army or the Marines.
The point I am driving at is that they could have taken the time to cover the logistical parts in detail. It would have helped sell things better down the line. So even for the "realistic" BT universe thinking, supply issues should have been a significant point of contention for all of the Clans. The Jaguars, most of all since they just took a beating on Luithen. The chance to rest and refit should be what both sides are doing, and while a year is a long time, it's short for a war on this scale. The thing is, the Inner Sphere militaries are used to operations like this. For them, the lull would be the chance to dig in, repair, shuffle around, evac wounded and essential people and tech.
So, for this, we should see the Jaguars being more cautious and living up to their totem's namesake. Striking quickly where they know they can win, hitting and fading. Not trying to run through things like a bull in a china shop. With the help or support of the Cats, they should be able to tie down more Combine units since the Cats are striking out around the Periphery flanks coming from that way. That alone would send fears of a wider war front and rumors of more Clans and more invaders all over the place.
The Outworlds Alliance would be scrambling and blaming the Combine for any attacks, though I wonder if the Ravens are already on the move at this point, I need to check the books on that, and they would be trying to get their heads out their fourth point of contacts as well. The FC would be caught off guard since now they would see this new front and do the math, seeing that their flank could be turned. Then when reports come of the Vipers doing the same thing on the FC's LC side, things will not be pretty for Hanse and the rest.
Ulric will need to keep everyone moving, letting the other Clans run wild to get to Terra, while Natasha and Phelan run the Wolves as straight as they can towards that goal, which will tie everyone up in bloody combat, so it won't be the walk in the park and again I don't see the Wolves in or on Terra no sooner than 3058.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 09:23 PM
45.51.181.83
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I believe you are correct on part of the supply issue, and with few serving in the military. But I do believe that TPTB purposefully left the supply issue in the game. Had the clans actually done what they should have, the IS would not have formed the SL in canon, but the clans would have taken Terra. It was the weak spot that would allow the IS to halt the clans, with the help of Comstar, setting up more things in the future. Much like having the SDS/ground batteries in place so nothing could ever land on a world, prevents the game from happening.
I also believe they specifically left out vehicles for battling the clans, as it would show that mechs aren't that great. Thus the need to not allow them some basic upgrades in the entire life of the game.
That struck me as odd. Why would the Ravens want the OA? Well other then them not being able to get to say Galax or some other ship yards.
But in the thread, the other clans fanning out that far would definitely bleed the DC. They would also put a major scare into the FS portion of the FC. With it, I wonder just how many forces from the TC border would actually be sent to the LC. This may also paralyze the Draconis March as well. The question of where to send your forces to comes to mind.
This scenario would definitely help the push for Terra, as reinforcements would be even more scattered or maybe not at all.
One point that should be made. This is a what if, so if things are done a little differently then the canon story, it is fine. If you want the Ravens moving now, or before, that shouldn't be an issue. This is trying to put some real logic into the invasion. Part of why I believe more clans should have been sent in the first place. This would be something the crusaders would want, as they wanted to destroy the houses, while the competition would want them to keep the others out. Once they realize the IS would embarrass them, the crusaders would push for more clans to 'prevent' the nuke fest that was the Amaris and first two succession wars.
They might also decide to punish the periphery, because without them being at war at the time, Amaris would never have been able to get close to Richard, destroying the SL.
Which may put the OA in a tight spot. If we go with the revenge concept, the OA might well be smashed for their part in the lead up to the death of the SL. Not sure if the Ravens could do much about it either.
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Karagin
08/10/22 10:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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I agree it allowed them to set up a more extended storyline for the canon, but they didn't do anything with it. The Truce should have still had the Falcons and Jaguars taking worlds UPTO to the Truce line on their respective borders with the FC/DC. The only Clans screwed at this point were the Wolves and Bears. The idea was they couldn't cross the Truce line till 3065 or so.
Again, they had a lot of stuff they could have done and milked and still kept the Twilight of the Clans stuff in play, to the point of even making it more believable in slamming into the overextended Jaguars. Still, nope we got everything shifted to the same old same old, Fed-Com/Laio temper tantrum storyline.
The Ravens are an odd lot. They may have wanted it as an end run or found something out there they wanted. Like more resources or abandoned SLDF naval yards. Things to ponder.
Yes, the Vipers and Cats expanding along the flanks would bleed out the FC/DC forces and draw in the forces of the local Peripheral powers. Some of these would be a boon for the FC/DC, while others would be a hindrance for all until destroyed. I would expect to see a lot of secondary pirate actions around these areas as those foolish enough to try and raid while everyone is fighting would pick up.
I am not sure about the Ravens. I am reading up on them and trying to figure out why they jumped the way they did. I am starting to think that homesickness for the known space, so to speak, was a widespread issue for the Clans.
The OA is going to be in a spot no matter what. With the Cats out there and possibly Ravens, they will have to fight or be conquered, and this time it won't be like the SLDF doing it. This time it will be for keeps and no home rule. They will be part of whichever Clan wins the day out there.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Pht
08/11/22 12:27 AM
98.21.88.138
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What do you think would have happened if the clans took Terra in the original invasion?
Say Ulric took the wolves to capture Terra.
This would also mean one of the others may have taken it as well.
It is pretty much assured that if the Falcons or Jaguars took it, there would be a continuation of fighting going on as they would not just sit and rule Terra, but try to eliminate those that brought down the SL in the first place. The house lords bear a lot of responsibility for that, but not as much as Amaris did. Still, they did nothing to prevent the fall of Terra, nor did they do anything to help take it back.
Do you think Ulric would have been able to control the Crusaders in both his clan and the others, and prevent them expanding and reclaiming the TH area? Do you think he would promote that very plan?
We can expand this to include more clans as the need for warriors will become necessary no matter which way this goes.
Which also means answering if the others would get involved as they were left out of the original invasion, and would see such duty as nothing more then a glorified PGC.
Would the clan in control be forced to give up their territories in the home worlds, as they could not keep control of the IS and those areas as well?
Well, comstar would go berzerk.
Whichever clans that took it would likely be mauled badly by the comguards stationed on earth, and I suspect the other clans would be seriously considering if they could take it from them.
Without a meaningful production base on terra, whoever took it would be on the hook for securing it, and all those WOB assets would likely be un-mothballed and used to fight to to take it back from them.
Even if one of the clans managed to gain the ascendancy AND all the other clans kowtowed to their supposed right, they'd still be in for a serious ride, because playing their usual clan-drama nonsense out in the areas around terra would not go over well at all, and the houses would be just waiting to pounce and crush them.
It seems like it would be a phyrric victory to me.
The other half of me thinks it would be hilarious if the houses just said "Meh, it's one planet. You can have the dumb thing," than just ignored them.
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Karagin
08/11/22 01:09 AM
70.118.172.64
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Pht, you might want to read the rest of what we have going, things are not as cut and dry as the ComGuard sitting tight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/11/22 01:23 AM
45.51.181.83
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We are looking at a what if, with this thread. Comstar would have to make a decision before the clans got to Terra. There is no real doubt of what is going to happen, but how they and the rest of the IS deals with it, is the key here.
There is nothing here saying it would be easy or there would be no losses. Quite the contrary.
The idea is to have a more realistic concept of the invasion, not the version canon presents.
If you have read a few other threads, you know the developers seemed to have forgotten or purposefully left out a few things to make the story go along the route they wanted to.
The idea that only 4 clans can do so, and bringing limited supplies to do it is too much. Having most of them ignore the very intel they got because it came from freeborns is garbage. But as things go, it was done with a purpose of not just rolling over the IS with the tech of the clans.
The black boxes used in the 4th war and 3039 war were also left out for the invasion. Comstar, working with the clans, was the 'only' way to get intel on what was going on.
Then the lack of just how much vehicles would play a part in stopping the clans were left out.
There is plenty more, but that is old threads.
This is using some logic to allow the clans to reach and take Terra. As with everything in a what if, there are going to be some issues. It is not meant to be an alternative to canon, despite what one person has been trying to claim.
Depending on how long you have read the thread, Comstar is pretty much going to break up if Terra is taken. WOB probably won't become a thing, as operation scorpion and Waterly's assassination wouldn't happen the way it did in canon. The crap of the hidden worlds will not be a thing either, as the clans have the old SL maps, not the Comstar edited maps the IS has. So what ever is hidden there will become clan property when they get there.
There is the issue of the sibkos, as the numbers that graduate to become warriors is low. The canon version did not ramp this up before the invasion happens, and went with the reavening in the later time frames. Except with the Falcons. The scientist caste had made more warriors with the DNA then the warrior leaders knew about, so the Falcons magically gained those ones to refill their ranks after the Falcon/Wolf war. I don't think this what if will do that. I hope not, as it sounds like plot armor gone wrong.
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Requiem
08/11/22 01:43 AM
1.147.88.67
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Given the damage the others had taken by the 'weak barbarians' even the most arrogant clans would realize they needed more supplies then they thought.
This is an absolute.
First, none of the Clans can be said to have enough supplies;
Second, all the Clans supply facilities are six months distant;
Third, the clans sibko system can never supply enough replacement personnel to cover the depletion report.
Then there if the final black hole – TPTB never established a written logistics resupply / replacement personnel document ever – It is therefore reasonable to conclude (in my opinion) that they also realised the shortcomings of the Clans and decided to ignore it lest the clans would lose and their grant plans for multiple new IS states (as 6 were never enough) and an il-Clan.
What we were also never allowed to do – go hunting for these logistics fleets – HA? Didn’t anyone remember the wolfpacks of WW2?
So all in all the Clans logistics is pointless – the Sibko system is pointless – and TPTB just fudged everything!
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The IS tends to go in waves for things
Depends on whom your CO is. Me I prefer starting off with mass artillery – LRMs – then brining in the VTOLs – followed by waved of fighters with gravity bombs – then follow up with hover cavalry and APCs (heavy weapons and HE) once everything has been knocked down for the count – then follow up with the Heavy Mech Retrieval vehicles
Toads – need to change the rules here and provide them with heavy weapons designed to actually do some damage on them … how many battles will it take before everyone realises that this is the way to go?
Also if you are going in the open (which you really do not want to do unless you are baiting them) and you do know toads are in the region – you mechs must be accompanied with mass hover cavalry with weapons designed to pick them off you mechs skin – Just like armour in the city – they have to in with infantry support otherwise you are just asking for it!
Really how hard is it to learn and adapt to Clan tactics?
Also placing PGCs on worlds in the rear – how hard is to strike at these worlds – and don’t go down with that tired stick there aren’t enough jump-ships as that tired excuse just doesn’t work.
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could stop and upgrade their equipment with
Problem – NO IS facility has the ability to assist with repairing Clan Mechs etc – unless they upgrade them accordingly. The same with consumables …
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If the C-bill and Comstar falls, what happens with hiring mercs?
Nothing – will just accept a new House currency – upgraded weapons – rites to salvage etc and keep on being Mercs.
Money is Money whether it is C-Bill, or other …
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The 'island' hopping happened during the invasion in canon.
Can you provide an example?
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Defiance
On Hesperus – Defiance Industries
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/61/Lc-3052.png?timestamp=20100529215848
consider the Jade Falcons invasion corridor – getting narrower and narrower the further we go down – they just do not have the forces.
If we keep this up all the way to Terra they are a vast distance from say Thorin / New Earth to Hesperus …
If you are looking for an interesting planet to attack along the way, may I suggest Skye.
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Clan Supplies … during the year of peace
First even if you combined all the Clans together there still will not be enough supplies to maintain the invasion – The invading Clans require military industrial facilities / mass sibkos within the periphery as well as massive supply dumps ….
I doubt a year will be enough to fix the Clan mistakes …
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I wonder if the Ravens are already on the move at this point
Once the Invading Clans close n Terra all Home Clams should be making preparations of their own to begin the second phase – conquest of the IS – so yes I would assume they too should be on the move.
As for the Combine the number of existing and new forces they have is up to each individual Game Master to determine.
I cannot see the Outworlds Alliance even being involved at this point in time as why would any Clan travel that far just to invade? It would just complicate the logistics problems many times over.
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time to Terra
Too many unknowns to make an accurate determination – could be 10, or even 50 …
He entire concept when it comes to the Clans and their military requires a complete upgrade … as is they just don’t have what it takes …
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Why the Clans fanned out that far
TPTB wanted new empires all throughout the IS and the only way that was going to happen was to spread the Clans out and beef up the Periphery States …
So they made a completely unbelievable story with an impossible back story …
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Once they realize the IS would embarrass them, the crusaders would push for more clans to 'prevent' the nuke fest that was the Amaris and first two succession wars.
Sorry but with more Clans – more warships – if TPTB doesn’t even the weapons attributes – expect Nukes to settle the issue.
Why would any Periphery state get involved against the Clans? Distance is too grate for them to care!
Also why would the MoC ever join the CC – this new combined realm has ruined the MoC of old and it just sickens me that TPTB would have done such an act!
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Again, they had a lot of stuff they could have done and milked and still kept the Twilight of the Clans stuff in play
TPTB should have slowed down -thought through all the angles – looked at history books – then and only then started the invasion – and again they should have taken their time writing it as too much was left unsaid / half done or was completely stupid from the get go.
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It seems like it would be a phyrric victory to me.
I agree totally.
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The other half of me thinks it would be hilarious if the houses just said "Meh, it's one planet. You can have the dumb thing," than just ignored them.
Yes, it would be hilarious – problem is it is never going to happen. Terra, as a symbol of power, will be desired throughout all eternity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/22 03:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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I think another what if might be in order, with Comstar opposing the clans right after their first contact. I would think the clans would not make the third wave....
As for this one, a few questions come up with the clans getting closer to Terra.
Does the citizens of the realms rise up in great numbers to join the military in order to prevent those worlds from falling?
It concerns me a little that rebellions would form if the houses just abandoned the worlds that the Bears and Wolves would hit, due to the Falcons and Jaguars moving to basically cut them off.
Would there be a mass exodus from those worlds as the houses would move to abandon them?
Would this end up with major revolts that threaten to destroy any of the houses?
One or all of these could be the reason why the clans could hit Terra. There are others that could be the reason as well. Some moron like Adam Steiner, could take his unit on a glory run in order to try and protect a world that would be cut off. Or try to recover a world that was their home, and waste several valuable resources, like jumpships and maybe some assault dropships in a vain attempt.
More possible things such as the CC deciding to hit the FC as they are dealing with the clans. Sun Tzu may figure the FC would finally slow the clans down enough that he could build up enough forces to prevent them from getting into the CC. This could also come from his ignorance of the clans, and think they will negotiate leaving the CC out of their invasion plans. Romano might be pushing this concept.
This could be from the CC trying to retake St. Ives instead of the Chaos march worlds.
The fake Thomas, might be able to con the 'members' of WOB to abandon Comstar and come help him protect the FWL or even lead a counter attack on the clans. That could be why Terra falls. Having a chunk of their military, including warships, just up and leave.
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Requiem
08/12/22 12:43 AM
1.147.88.67
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Does the citizens of the realms rise up in great numbers to join the military in order to prevent those worlds from falling?
I was under the impression this question was a given? Yes, on every world taken by the Clans you will come to find an active partisan fighting force. Armament, however, is dependent upon the technological level of the world in question.
Any high population, high technology, world should have conventional regiments / air-force units in the hundreds – thus the partisan forces could be ‘who knows how many’?
One more point - a trinary garrison with support personnel – can someone please explain how they are supposed to maintain a 24/7 security force (Infantry) to patrol the outside of their garrison?
As the answer, as far as I can see, is they don’t have the capability to maintain a security force to protect their garrison 24 / 7 – Thus how open are they for sniper / IEDs / kidnappings etc? – Something they have never had to protect from in the past? – within the IS, however, it can be considered to be an every-day occurrence on some captured worlds! Hence the need for vast Infantry forces to guard and protect and sweep areas clean.
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that rebellions would form if the houses just abandoned the worlds
Remember for most border worlds the changing of House occurs with little to no affect upon the people – other than the currency and public holidays – as Houses have come to the conclusion if they do not interfere then they usually get along and the need for security people is minimized.
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a mass exodus from those worlds
How many drop-ships and jump-ships are available? Therefore, any exodus will be minimal to nil.
Also Houses do not abandon them – this is why spies set up resistance cells as well as why invasions to reconquer worlds occur.
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Would this end up with major revolts that threaten to destroy any of the houses?
Too many worlds for revolts to occur upon the majority of worlds all at the same time to threaten to destroy Houses – it also needs an important reason, such as succession to the throne for it to spread over the entire realm.
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Some moron like Adam Steiner
Yes I agree, Adam is not competent as a military leader and I too find it difficult to understand how he made it through the ranks given his past decision to run off on his own,, to do his own thing without discussing it with high command, without coordinating his activities as a sanctioned reconnaissance mission.
Normally this should be considered him abandoning his post in the facer of the enemy – as well as leading forces to mutiny in the face of the enemy …
As to why the Clans want Terra as a target is due to its historical imperative – the cradle of humanity / the Star League – also in this case the Clans have turned Terra into a cheap prize, be the first and win il-Khan / il-Clan status – can they be any plebian at this stage?
A single world objective is not that important, for the most part, unless it maintains a significant military industrial facility / central government world / is of historical cultural and religious) importance … etc.
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the CC deciding to hit the FC as they are dealing with the clans.
How many forces does the CC have? Especially when you consider the size of the FC military - so how large can the CC grow from the 20 year update to 3050?
I would also like to put in the point if the CC can increase in size in this short period of time doesn’t this also predicate hat the FC can also increase at the same rate (if not at a faster rate? Thus any silly move by the CC at this stage could be the last they ever make if Hanse finally loses his patience with them? (also war of 3039 – the CC, as far as I consider the facts, should not exist any more TPTB once more rigged the game!)
Retaking St. Ives – remember they would have a mutual defence agreement with the FC – so any move on them would invite a massive retaliation!
Chaos March – only occurs if you allow the FWL and CC to attack whist at the same time the FC does absolutely nothing to defend these worlds so in all reality this is not going to occur in this what if.
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WoB / Comstar
First how does the schism eventuate in this what if?
Second who gets kicked off Terra and why?
Third why would the Fake Thomas help either if they did not assist in keeping his son alive – and he had to ask help from FC?
Lastly, having a proportion of the Com Guard up and leave just as Terra becomes a target of the Clans in an act of infamy that no one within the entire IS would forgive or forget – this force, and their officers, would become a pariah in the entire IS!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/12/22 12:56 AM
70.118.172.64
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Interesting, CapCon hitting the FedSuns part of the FC while they are fighting the Clans...that would be a twist. How would Hanse handle a two-front war? Which enemy would be the one to deal with first...
ComStar fighting from the reports of first contact would require the Clans to wipe out one of their HPG stations or forces, which could likely happen. A ComGuard Level II out on patrol runs across a Clan Star, fighting happens, and things go pear-shaped from there. Yes, that would be another twist. This would mean the IS might get a warning of the real threat sooner, and the Dragoons might come forward sooner. Not see it change things to much, since there would still likely be no Tuykiad fbattle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/12/22 01:12 AM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of Comstar not working with the clans would be for a different what if. The idea is the clans not having to destroy an HPG, but just start seizing them, and running it themselves. But that would only seal the resistance. I was thinking Walterly agreed with the rest of the first circuit to resist the clans. This would change a lot, as the clans would not have the big surprise that they initially did. Worlds under attack would have information sent out by the HPGs, not suppressed like canon did. Unlike canon, there would be no doubt the new attacks were not pirates. It might also negate the clans warships for a while.
The CC would have a field day hitting the FC when the clans are close to Terra. So many forces would be tied up with dealing with defending worlds, and trying to retake them, that the CC would have a good chance of doing some damage.
Even just distracting the FC, would help the clans without the CC realizing just how much this would increase the chances of the clans taking Terra and expanding from there.
Any feedback on the other suggestions?
Like the populations having issues with the military leaving some worlds as they could not defend them due to becoming cut off quickly?
Or join to help prevent the need to abandon them?
The choice of WOB was not something decided on a whim or spur of the moment. They had to have long term planning done in advance. Maybe they didn't like the idea that no one could advance without being a toady of the ruler, and they did not change often.
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Requiem
08/12/22 01:31 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
CapCon hitting the FedSuns part of the FC while they are fighting the Clans
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the CC would have a good chance of doing some damage.
As stated previously – what is the disposition (TO&E) of both the CC and the FC?
I would also like to ask what is the political and military situation of both the MoC and the FWL?
Remember the comparable size of the FC military – they could quite easily take on the Clans whist killing off he CC as the entire military of the Capellan March on its own should be able to kill them off!
So unless this what if radically changes the military of either side the CC will not survive very long if they get adventurous – thus the CC doing some damage? Not likely.
As for the assisting the Clans to take Terra – remember the distance and the number of worlds required to be taken by them to reach Terra.
First they actually need all the forces and the logistics to reach Terra – and the Clans have neither!
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ComStar fighting from the reports of first contact
Com Guard would first have to reform to engage the Clans – remember they are spread out throughout the IS as they are now guarding all their HPG sites – so this will take time.
Second if the Com Guard has decided to get involved then why haven’t they attempted to form an allice with FC, DC and FRR as a combined military against the Clans?
As for the Dragoons as stated previously, they must have a come to God moment and inform the IS as to their origins or face being labelled 5th Column.
And yes, there will not be a Tukayyid battle in this what if.
The entire War will have to be re-written – as the means of conducting a defensive campaign has just shifted wildly.
As stated previously – what is the disposition (TO&E) of both the CC and the FC?
I would also like to ask what is the political and military situation of both the MoC and the FWL?
Remember the comparable size of the FC military – they could quite easily take on the Clans whist killing off he CC as the entire military of the Capellan March on its own should be able to kill them off!
So unless this what if radically changes the military of either side the CC will not survive very long if they get adventurous.
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ComStar fighting from the reports of first contact
Com Guard would first have to reform to engage the Clans – remember they are spread out throughout the IS as they are now guarding all their HPG sites – so this will take time.
Second if the Com Guard has decided to get involved then why haven’t they attempted to form an allice with FC, DC and FRR as a combined military against the Clans?
As for the Dragoons as stated previously, they must have a come to God moment and inform the IS as to their origins or face being labelled 5th Column.
And yes there will not be a Tukayyid battle.
The entire War will have to be re-written.
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WoB
They are a quasi-religious order – thus the dispute with ComStar should be of a religious nature – ie. a reformation where one side declares the other heretical.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/12/22 02:23 AM
70.118.172.64
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I have ideas. I just need to reshuffle things a bit for the second what if. I can see the idea of the Clans seizing HPG stations causing ComStar to be pissed and then getting shot at when they try to get them back.
Waterly would have tantrums and be jumping up and down demanding Focht do something about all of this and then blame the Houses for not protecting the HPG stations etc...
The CC going after the FC, mainly the FS part, would be a classic double play and amusing as all hell. Now my question would be when, though. Would it be before his mother goes after her sister and Justin? Or after that? I don't see Romano making the moves to go into the FC; she isn't mentally stable enough to even see that as a plan. So it would have to be Sun-Tzu.
This means this would have to be much closer to the later part of the Clan invasion when the FC is fully committed to the fighting, and oh, here is a kicker. Maybe Katherine is working with Sunny on this. Yeah, that would be a big slap in the face to her daddy...LOL On second thought, Nah.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/12/22 10:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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Wow. I thought I had some evil thoughts. Katherine helping Sunny to take on Victor while he is fighting the clans. Now that would be a interesting what if. Thing is, I don't think Katherine was against her father so much, as I think she was jealous of her father working with Victor. This comes from the civil war novels, as she is in the Fox's Den thinking about Hanse.
The timing is important, and I think there could be three versions of the CC hitting the FC. One with just the chaos march worlds, one with St. Ives, and one with both. As the clans neared Terra, there would be a major shift in forces to try and stop the clans. I could see a major deployment in order to do so, even if the FC doesn't help reinforce the DC worlds near Terra. The main reason for this is the heavy losses the FC would have to have in order to be losing that many worlds, though we haven't gotten into if the FC is taking back worlds or not. I am sure they are trying, but I would think trading worlds would be more likely. Take one, and lose one sort of thing. This could yet be another reason why the Falcons were not able to deal with the Wolves on Terra.
One scenario that just came to mind is a Batchall being done for Terra, with Comstar losing, then reneging on the deal. Simply put, the Wolves would be on Terra or next to it, when this happens. This could well throw all the clans into a frenzy because Comstar would show they are not 'honorable'.
This could well cause some of the home clans to start heading into the IS against the grand council's orders, or even the council allowing it.
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Requiem
08/12/22 03:42 PM
1.147.88.67
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Clans seizing HPG stations, forcing the Com Guard to retaliate
Standard planetary invasion then? The worlds, however, that these HPGs reside upon are FC, FRR and DC – thus in all reality the Com Guard will require their assistance.
This, therefore, will (hopefully) lead to the formation of the Star League and the SLDF.
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CC going after FC
Where the CC is making a move upon the FC under the false belief that they are distracted by the Clans.
What time frame is this – as you should realize as the duration increases from 3050 to say 3055 onwards the FCs model army is undergoing a reformation that the CC cannot be said to occurring – the FC has access to Clan Tech – Thus Omni Weapon Systems as well as Clan weapon systems etc. – the same cannot be said with regards to the CC – they are stuck with older models.
The FC should also be adopting a total war footing with regards to its economy the further you go from 3050 to 3055 and onwards ….
The FC to CC ratio a minimum would be far above that of 10:1 – it could be even as high as 20:1.
Hanse could therefore be using the CC as an OpFor unit to “sharpen the claws of his new model army” prior to being sent to the Clan front …
Then let us consider the number of shipyards within the former FS compared to those within the CC – as time increases the number of ships he FS has built compared to those of the CC would be increasing exponentially …
Tactically therefore unless the CC can obtain a significant ally, they are going to loose this war …
Even fighting circa 3050 the Capellan March will have significant forces where he tide of war will turn in the favour of the FC.
Time to face facts the CC does not have the necessary forces to engage the FC …
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Maybe Katherine is working with Sunny on this.
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Katherine helping Sunny to take n Victor whilst he is fighting the Clans
Hatred of Katherine runs deep and cannot be sated.
As this is a what if why do we have to stick with canon’s old and tired view of things – what about a new story where she is not a ‘traitor’ to the FC.
Also if she is so jealous of the male trope of superiority – why not make the protagonist her where she is the great military commander, even surpassing that of her older brother, and she has a force equal to or surpassing that of Victor’s 10th
And is she who leads the FC forces to victory over the adventurous CC ( if you want them in the game) – and why not add in a new Kai – she has Kali Liao (Sunny’s sister) helping her kill of her brother …
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there could be three versions of the CC hitting the FC. One with just the chaos march worlds
Sorry, but there is a major snag with this … the chaos march does not exist.
In this what if universe has Hanse died and has Victor gone down the replace Joshua Marik trope path? And has Katherine separated the FC back into its constituent parts LC and FS?
If this hasn’t occurred, as per canon, then we cannot say that the chaos march exists – and by the way Victor is supposed to be Duke of this March – so we can say he is doing a great job as duke don’t you agree?
Also St Ives has a mutual defence treaty with the FC – so again this just isn’t going to work.
So new idea based on rational thought – the 3039 war the CC was obliterated – sunny boy and his sister were sent to St Ives – there they grew up and sunny decides to stage a coup to reform the CC – civil war ensures …
Now we have a believable story.
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why the Falcons were not able to deal with the Wolves on Terra.
Why do we have to stick with these two? Why not allow their war to go ahead and guess what the FC steps in and kills the remnants of the two off – yay pyric victory for these two clans ….
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This could well throw all the clans into a frenzy because Com Star would show they are not 'honourable'.
Here’s an idea – why don’t we actually show the truth for once that the Clan are not honourable – as they have never ever been honourable as shown when the Clans were formed, as when they fabricated the war with Wolverines, as when they can no longer be seen as SLDF – and are now firmly good Nazi soldiers in all but name …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/12/22 04:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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If ComStar plays negative with the Batchall, then the entire war changes. There will be no quarter given; everything will be seen and treated as a Trail of Annihilation by the Clans.
The Falcons may not get there because the Fed-Com holds them up with stiffer defenses and counterattacks, and the FWL might launch an offensive into the Falcon's flank just to keep them off their worlds which could slow them down in addition to the FC issues.
If I was being nice, I am more of having Katherine slip and fall and break her neck in the bathtub. Since I am not, she can be the backstabbing, use whatever colorful negative adjective you want, and with no plot armor to save her; she will get either caught or used by those more skilled than her and left to swing when not needed anymore. But enough said about her. There are better characters to deal with running around.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/12/22 05:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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Katherine chokes on her own vile and dies would be a good way to deal with that.
With the first assault on Terra, would the Wolves be the only ones near it? Or would the Bears have something that they could bid against the Wolves with?
It seems the Falcons aren't close enough to do anything but complain, but what about the Jaguars?
This could also be asked about the VIpers or Cats.
Would there be a fight to see who gets first crack, like Rassahague had?
I would think the Wolves would push for no bidding, unless others were within 2 jumps, as any delay would give the defenders time to dig it. It isn't the Wolves fault the others couldn't make it there in a timely manor (hinting the others are weak).
While I'm thinking of it, the Great Gash on Twycross should be removed from the story. I thought it was a cheap way to gain more drama in the novel. The Falcon guard should be forced into going around the area like everyone else did for the entire time Twycross was colonized. It was too convenient for the IS to 'forget' it was there.
I forget how old Kali was at that time, but thinking one of the kids could have diverted forces, or even used CC money to hire mercs to hit a few worlds, forcing Romano to continue the assault, especially if they actually succeed with an assault. It is also possible that Thomas might suggest strikes, as he wants the FWL worlds lost to be brought back into the fold. This would also give the FWL a better reason to engage the clans, as Terra would be in striking distance of FWL worlds.
Then again, this is a what if, and is not following canon. Romano might decide that the FC needs to be punished for all the crimes against the CC and hit the FC. This could well come from support from the periphery realms as well. With the FS diverted to dealing with the clans, the TC might well decide to hit FS worlds. If they can take them and hold them being a question. I would think this depends on how many troops were moved to deal with the clans.
One major point may well be the CC striking a major staging area the FC has for dealing with the clans, forcing a major defeat for the FC, opening the way for the clans to hit Terra, and possibly worlds around it.
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Requiem
08/13/22 02:09 AM
1.147.88.67
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If ComStar plays negative with the Batchall, then the entire war changes. There will be no quarter given
Problem with this hypothesis:- Wolcott – the battle was a trap set by Hohiro Kurita; instead of facing “green” troops, the Combine forces were actually elite Genyosha regiments.
There was no response by the Clans here, so why should there be a no quarter, Trial of Annihilation, scenario as above?
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Tactics
As discussed previously there are multiple counterattack scenarios that can be utilized – each of which will influence their Clan’s ability to respond / proceed.
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If I was being nice, I am more of having Katherine slip and fall and break her neck in the bathtub.
Katherine chokes on her own vile and dies would be a good way to deal with that.
Question – Is there a new club? “The I despise Katherine in all what if / Alt. Universe scenarios just because Club”
So rather than taking each what if / alt universe as a single-story Katherine must be despised and killed off even if she becomes the hope of humanity just because in the canon story she is hated and reviled by some – thus her ‘evil taint’ will travel with her no mater which universe she belongs to.
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With the first assault on Terra, would the Wolves be the only ones near it?
Every GM / gaming group should be allowed to make this decision for themselves, just to make things interesting may I suggest Clan Nova Cat! The Jaguars, Falcons and Wolves will have a fit with this!
The Bears will be struck dumb, just mumbling "No F'ing way!"
I just cannot wait for when the il-Khan suggests they all go on a vision quest to find their totem animal to find a vision of the future ... this suggestion will go down like a lead balloon ....
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the Great Gash on Twycross Battle should be removed from the story.
This is a given – the battle just demonstrates how bad a leader Victor really is when given a RCT – as just dumb luck saved him!
Also why would you have a battle on the surface of the planet given the ferocity of the sandstorms as well as the number of underground passageways that should be evident?
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hire mercs to hit a few worlds
And how many times superior is the FC economy – thus the FC should have the ability to buy out some of the mercs; or just scare them from getting involved – thus leaving only the diehard CC mercs …
Also it is not Thomas within the FWL who really hates the CC – it’s the Duchy of Andurien and the Duchy of Oriente! So Hanse should use them to attack the CC – offer them the worlds they take, they can keep!
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This could well come from support from the periphery realms
Problem – neither of the two major periphery realms would assist the CC at this stage – they both would never work for the CC.
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the TC might well decide to hit FS worlds
As stated, many times, the TC are purely defensive in nature – they would never poke the bear for fear of a retaliatory strike.
Will have to change the entire nature of the TC – as well as the size of their military - if you want to go down this track.
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One major point may well be the CC striking a major staging area the FC has for dealing with the clans
You do realise that the closest staging area would be within the Sarna March (Terran Corridor) – First consider the distance to reaching this target – then consider the un-proportional response Hanse would unleash upon the CC for this assault – all I can suggest is say goodbye to the CC.
Also the CC would become the most reviled realm within the IS overnight for such an action! So I hope the CC can survive when all imports cease.
Also becoming a member of the new Star League and all the benefits that entails - access to R&D - new omni tech - access to captured clan techs etc. - All gone just because the CC decided they wanted to make such a childish move!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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