Karagin
08/14/22 09:23 AM
70.118.172.64
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If the CC attacks cause the FC to shift troops back to deal with them, which it most likely will, and they catch the FC flat-footed, that will be a significant blow to the FC. One that will impact the entire war.
Twycross was a minor fight, not a significant win, so to speak; the FC didn't keep the planet; they hurt the Falcons, and that was it. The public relations machine of the FC and the other Houses made it into a major victory and the cult of personality around folks like Kai and Victor add to it.
The Wolves would hit Terra full force, that won't change. If any of the other Clans are nearby they will still go in full force using the bidding system to done at the battle level for each engagement sight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/14/22 03:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Twycross thing comes from not liking the bs logic that comes up from time to time.
The FC troops were moving thru a massive tornado, yet they thought forces couldn't move then a pass?
The fact that an overwhelming majority of the FC forces would be engaged with the clans would definitely get a response from the CC. Maybe even the TC as well. As stated, this point will have an impact on the war. If the timing is right, the removal of front line forces to deal with either or both, may well have a clan push that breaks thru areas, causing the war to be lost.
What happens if the FC does get physically split? Would Melissa head to the LC portion to try and recover? Would Victor take up the reigns?
I can see a major reconstruction of the LC military, removing the old concept of the biggest mechs are the only ones worth using, and political power means the greatest leaders. The concept of the RCT might finally sink into the LC command as a viable way of fighting. That would change some of the fighting issues the LC has against the clans.
The DC 'honor' code of one on one would have to be removed for the DCMS to do much against the clans. I could see the adaptation of a version for them dealing with RCT style fighting units. Given the limited mech production in the DC, I don't think they would have much of a choice.
The whole reason for bringing up the issues with the Terra combat, comes from the flanking clans probably would not be close enough to to more the complain. Bidding is one thing, but having the forces there are an entirely different problem. This is also true with fights on the borders of the clans invasion corridors. To even try to suggest the Wolves wait for another clan to get close enough to bid, is against the entire clan way. This also presents a problem for the other clans, as their bid may well result in the full destruction of the forces they bid. Limited forces to reach there, and having to do with what they got idea.
Though this could cause more damage to the flanking clans, maybe even forcing them to stop forward motion in order to secure or reinforce the worlds they have. Losing even a cluster of untis would hurt, but I can see a full galaxy being destroyed trying to get close enough, quick enough, to challenge the Wolves.
I could also see the crusaders losing a lot of power, as they are forced to pull back, or even call for more clans to help them. Worse, is if they have to actually leave the IS or be destroyed. Even if they stay in the IS, they would be challenged at home, due to looking pathetically weak. But this would be after the Terra conflict. Something possible for the future.
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Karagin
08/14/22 04:09 PM
70.118.172.64
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The LC and DC changing fighting styles will come much later. They aren't going to shift quickly enough to make much difference in this war. The next one, yes, both will have changed their style. I agree that the LC part of the FC will have fully embraced the RCT with some heavy forces kept to give them a sense that we are still important in that something will be tossed to the elites of the LC nobility.
DC honor fighting style is similar to the Clans, it might still hang around, but it might be held for certain things. I could see the Combine using it in a former of counter-bidding. In an attempt to use the Clan's rules against them kind of deal. That could then be set up to make the samurai class more of an elite warrior class that would be sent into being the Coordinator's champions. Or something like that. Feel free to run with it.
If a Clan can't get to Terra, big deal, that's on them, not anything else. If they are unable to fight through the Inner Sphere and make it to Terra, they can deal with their shortfalls inside their Clans. Nothing is said or shown that all the Clans have to make to Terra. It says ONE Clan has to take control and keep it thus, and they are then the ilClan. So if the VIpers, Cats, Falcons, etc... can't get there, that is their issue, not the Wolves. Let me quote the hack Stackolpe as he once told fans at GenCon one year, "maybe they should have picked a better faction to support."
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/14/22 06:20 PM
1.147.88.67
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If the CC attacks cause the FC to shift troops back to deal with them …
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The fact that an overwhelming majority of the FC forces would be engaged with the clans would definitely get a response from the CC.
Problem, primary assumption – That the FC would move the majority of its military to deal with the Clans. The border, therefore, between the old FS and the CC has therefore become a “concentrated weakness scenario” to use the old LA phrase (or in this case flat-footed).
However, I would like to point out that neither Hanse Davion nor Morgan Hasek-Davion would never be that reckless. As I due to their extensive experience with the CC they will realise that the CC can never be trusted to remain idle whist the bulk of the FC forces are engaged elsewhere.
The FC (particularly FS – Capellan and Sarna March) military’s TO&E is of such a size that any remaining forces WILL be designed to deal with any adventurism on the part of the CC.
Consider the 20-year update with each realm’s military TO&E as well as the CC’s reduced military industrial complex – they do not have the forces nor the R&D the FC has, circa 3050 onwards, to prosecute an extended military campaign within the old FS – it is just not possible!
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Twycross was a minor fight … the FC didn't keep the planet … public relations … made it into a major victory and the cult of personality around folks like Kai and Victor add to it.
Sept 3050
FedCom Task Force – 10th Lyran Guards, 9th FedCom RCT and the first 2 Battalions of the Kell Hounds.
Sorry but you do not send a force this large to a minor fight!
Any serious military commander will realise that Victor went into the battle with a fraction of his overall forces and only won due the dumb luck mining the gash with HE (at the 11th hour) and that of Kai Allard-Liao’s self-sacrifice in detonating the charge.
Where in reality the 10th and 9th should have available artillery that should have been zeroed in on the gash to begin with – he also should have had a ready reaction force available to deal with any force that survived the artillery bombardment.
Also shouldn’t the gash have been used as a staging area for his forces? – as it’s a natural geological feature to escape from the wind on the planet? – thus any attack by the Clans should have been repulsed by the forces within?
Also where is Victor’s reconnaissance forces? Shouldn’t they have spotted the Clans advance way before they even arrived at the Gash?
Sorry but this is just miss-managed as far as a regular officer would view it.
As for cult of personality – where are all the opposition channels (as seen in today’s society throughout the world)? How easy would it be for them to get an expert in to inform the people that Victor, as a commander, really stuffed the battle and only survived due to luck of Kai?
So, unless the Government has total control over the media I doubt that Victor will be viewed positively by many.
Also if the planet is valuable – as seen by the size of the FC Task Force – shouldn’t the FC military expected the Clan response in sending the 423rd and 428th Cluster counter attack? – which also proves that this planet is of strategic importance as you do not send an invasion force this large to re-conquer a planet if it is so mediocre!
I would also like to ask Clan Warrior Joanna – she is supposed to be the only Falcon Guards warrior to have survived Kai Allarad-Liao’s attack – can I ask how as she would have had to remain in her Mech for two + months before being dug out?
Sorry this just defies belief … where is her food … and waste products being stored at the same time?
So in all reality she should be a POW with Victor’s forces if she is to survive! And what this also means is that the Falcon Guard’s mechs were dug out by Victor’s forces prior to the arrival of the Clan relief force!
Can reality be returned any time soon?
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The Wolves would hit Terra full force, that won't change.
This is a race! If beaten to Terra they get silver or bronze – they do not get the gold for kicking the first place holder off the podium.
So the Wolves will have to just accept their fate if they did not get there first and were not the first to take to the world.
Also I believe the game would be better served if the Wolves had to accept a little humility and were not the il-Clan – but this was never to be as TPTB rigged it from the get go (as seen by how they were treated throughout the invasion and beyond in comparison to other Clans!)
Also I though this was supposed to be a what-if forum – not a lets copy the canon story just extend all the battles so that Terra is taken forum in a manner that defies all belief as well as being mathematically inaccurate.
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Given the limited mech production in the DC
As stated previously – every world is an island – thus every world must have the infrastructure capability to engineer all vehicles, buildings etc necessary to maintain said world.
As the DC government is so closely linked to the military is should be very easy to turn on their military industrial capabilities in a time of total war output – hence massive military ordinance output!
So again can we extend a little logic to the game?
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the flanking clans probably would not be close enough to more the complain.
Actually in all probability all Clan’s should be in the same boat by the time they are progressing towards Terra.
First, all Clans rear should be constantly be in a state of flux due to …
Partisan activities
Also shouldn’t all IS forces be using hidden worlds by this stage to attack Clans in the Centre of the Invasion corridor – again this is not that hard to do and can be easily maintained with hidden logistic routes – that the Clans will now have to send their naval forces out to find!
Constant Raiding of Clan rear worlds close to periphery to disrupt logistics – the soft underbelly of the Clans!
PGS (manned by freeborn) crossing sides to the IS as they realise they will have a better life with the IS than that of their tyrannical True born overlords – IS psyops teams earning their dinner!.
IS Naval fleets engaging Clan Logistic Fleets + Clan Naval support within the Periphery – disrupting Logistics / replacement personnel.
Frontal Attack force by all new IS SLDF upon all clans utilizing WW2 Italy defence protocol – Attrition Warfare to grind the Clans down.
If any Clan moves forces to the front leaving any planet under garrisoned – IS spy will send a message – planet invaded for recapture and possible trap for any force sent to recapture the world.
So no I doubt that flanking clans have more to complain about – remember this is space warfare not land based warfare thus it is more of a 3D warfare – attacking from the sides to reach the centre is not required – something that TPTB constantly forget in this game!
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even call for more clans to help them
Say goodbye to any honour that Clan had – that called for assistance from another Clan within the Kerensky Cluster.
Also as this Clan would now be seen as week – how long until a trial of absorption is called?
Politically calling for additional forces is a poisoned chalice that will just lead to disaster – the Clans within the IS will have to fix the problem themselves or face extinction – there are no other choices for a Mongol Commander and her/his Hoard!
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The LC and DC changing fighting styles will come much later. They aren't going to shift quickly enough to make much difference in this war.
Can I laugh now? Both forces have undergone massive change from the before the 3039 war – LC started before the 4th Succession War with the assistance of the FS. – the DCMC began to change with Theodore Kurita’s reforms when he was Gunji-no-Kanrei – and he introduced the Ghost regiments – and as seen by Wolcott.
So no it really should not take that long to overcome, adapt and survive the coming of the Clans!
With the coming of the SLDF they must join forces to survive – and that will require change by everyone!
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DC honour fighting style is similar to the Clans, it might still hang around
Only by the oldest warriors within the DCMS and those attached to the Black Dragon Society – the younger fighters adhering to Theodore’s reforms will have a different take on this style of fighting.
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GenCon one year, "maybe they should have picked a better faction to support."
Predetermined end result? No chance for luck?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/15/22 11:29 AM
45.51.181.83
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Can you imagine that? A story that is set up so no luck in involved is the end result of the story. You mean writers actually write the story with the end result already figured out?
Whining that the IS doesn't have an SL is really stupid as the whole premise of this thread is that the clans make it during the initial invasion. What does this mean? Someone isn't bothering to comprehend the printed word. Just making stupid comments that go completely against the whole set up of the thread to get an argument.
The only one that said the IS made one is the person told to leave the conversation as NOTHING of what they continue to put in is wanted.
Claiming someone is reading your comments and taking it to heart because they say something you like is beyond arrogant. Nothing in your comments has set up anything that sounds like it. Thought are done and you are NOT the only one that can come up with ideas.
As the war is a major fight, the idea that the FS/FC has hundreds of regiments of mechs sitting on the sidelines shows a complete lack of thought. And those ones that are sitting in garrison are NOT waiting for the CC to act. They are scattered around the FC trying to keep pirates and others from taking the underdefended worlds. Anyone with any sort of intelligence can figure this out.
The comments are getting even more illogical and down right stupid as no one is bothering with the certain person.
Saying the GM has the right to change the premise, makes it sound like this is a completed concept, not a simple what if. As stated, leave the thread as nothing you put up has any relevance to what is going on despite thinking your view is the only thing that is logical or acceptable.
Put up or shut up.
This thread is to get ideas going, not rehash something that no one will see, despite it being toted as the only viable solution to canon, and been presented so all can view it. Yet only one person has viewed it, and basically said it wasn't going to hold water, so is being kept to just themselves.
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ghostrider
08/15/22 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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So would the flanking clans have any real chance to attack the inner clans holdings?
Or are they so busy with dealing with the FC/DC that they can't get enough forces to do anything but harass them?
I could see this being the main reason to hold up the flankers, and possibly set up Comstar having to garrison the worlds directly in the path to Terra, near Terra. Might even suggest the houses 'abandon' those worlds in order to avoid getting the forces trapped, as suggested earlier in the thread. I would think that within 4 jumps of Terra, the first Comstar/clan warship conflicts would start, if they haven't already done so. Which also would mean that the Wolves would have to send for more of their ships, or let the others deal with this scenario, not that they are likely to just sit back.
As for garrisoning their HPGs, this could lead to the falsehood Comstar had set up, as forces would be pulled from them en masse to protect Terra. They were only put there to set up for a time when Comstar decided a military strike on the houses was right.
This does lead to an interesting side note.
As Terra did have manufacturing facilities, or at least the Sol system did, would Comstar open up sales to the houses? I don't think they have the trained personnel to pilot all of what they produce, and this is a life or death scenario for them. I can imagine the DC would have more warriors then machines, and it isn't like the FC would be hurting for pilots over machines. Even if it was nothing more then vehicles, I would think Comstar would start selling to the houses. This would be true for jumpships as well. Not the advanced Comstar designs, but the normal ones.
This could well open up the need for Comstar to move some manufacturing to other worlds. The hidden worlds crap has to go. The clans would know what is there, though may be not if they still glowed or not. They would send someone to investigate them all.
This could also play a part in the engine issue for warships. Comstar might have to sell them sooner, rather then later, to the houses. Granted, this does not mean the warship release would be pushed up. The fact that the Comstar built engines may not fit the ships properly. so full redesigns would be needed. Much like making units, there is always something that has to be left out, or modified in order to get things working right. One possible issue is the thrust put out by those engines. They might not be enough, so need a larger engine sort of idea comes to mind.
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Cray
08/15/22 01:22 PM
136.226.19.185
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The counter insurgency troops is a point TPTB screwed up on. The clans supposedly trained the Dragoons with it, yet couldn't figure it out during their invasion?
As of 3058, all of the Clans together had 110,500 warriors and were occupying planets with, in total, over 100 billion Spheroids who largely disliked the Clans. In comparison, the US surged to 170,000 troops occupying Iraq (pop. ~30 million).
At this point you can say "'Mechs rule, 20th century tanks drool," but occupation and garrison forces usually have vast disparities in firepower regardless of technology. As far as a guy with an AK-47 or IED is concerned, there's not a lot of difference between a 31st Century 'Mech and late-model 20th Century tanks: both grossly outgun the insurgent. A F-15E Strike Eagle might as well be an aerospace fighter to insurgents.
The problem is manpower. Clan occupation and garrisoning had to execute Clan policies like like, "We're going to destroy your economies, force most of you out of work because the service industry is silly, stuff you into castes, and make you obey people with the biggest guns." Trying to do that is rarely about fighting giant angry mobs (which won't appear twice after the first time the Clans machine gun everyone), and it's rarely about fighting bands of swashbuckling guerillas with ragtag 'Mechs (which the Clan COIN training will handle just fine).
No, Clan occupation and garrisoning has to deal with billions of people per planet who don't cooperate. During the initial invasion, the Clans dropped a few hundred administrators and dozens of second-line troops on planets with billions of people. That's not enough personnel to know what anti-Clan memes the government is emailing itself, let alone monitor, police, and enforce Clan policies on the planetary government. There was simply no way for that few personnel to control such a vast population. COIN tactics are irrelevant when 4 billion people simply ignore your 200 civilian caste administrators.
The Clans could always shoot someone but they couldn't control and govern the entire population of conquered planets. That's where they ran into problems.
Some of the latest Touring the Stars and publications like Empire Alone look at the challenges the Clans faced. Different Clans had different approaches - the Wolves generally let planets know that they were going to leave the populations alone if they chipped in materials and supplies to the Clan, while the Falcons seized critical chokepoints like pharmaceutical production and only very slowly implemented Clan economic and social policies so there wasn't a badly riled population. After a few generations, the youthful, un-educated, propaganda-brainwashed populations thought the Falcons were just awesome - it was fertile ground for Operation Hollywood to disrupt.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/15/22 04:54 PM
70.118.172.64
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Cray, I can say a lot about guys with AKs taking out tanks, you want to argue that with me? Seen enough of them burying HME in the ground and blowup M1A1 and other vehicles, so please don't try to say that the higher the tech better they will be at keeping the rebels down.
So yes, Cray, they will have to deal with the populations that don't want to be part of their Clans. They have to integrate them into the system, and given that at the start of the Invasion, the Clans had no real idea of how the Inner Sphere worked, they were not ready to deal with rebels. Since they rule with an iron fist, they would have to have troops on the worlds that deal 100% with that kind of stuff daily. They didn't have that.
Also, we are not talking about stuff. This little discussion is set back at the start of things, aka the Clan Invasion, so there is no canon. We are playing with ideas and how things might go if certain things changed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/15/22 05:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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The flanking Clans would try to go after the Invasion Clans' holdings, just as they would in the Homeworlds. It would be the normal Rules of Engagement for that stuff. Not much would change for that.
I could see it changing later for, say, the Bears as they moved entirely to their Inner Sphere holdings, but that is a particular case.
ComStar pulling troops from their HPGs in the OZ would be something I doubt the Clans would allow. The Wolves might, but I doubt the Jaguars would or the Falcons. Each Clan would be doing their own thing on how they react to that.
ComStar selling military tech/equipment to the Houses. Yeah, this might happen if they can hold off the Wolves. Still, even then, that might now be the best course since they will need to replace losses of men and material and not having the asinine hidden worlds and super plot armor of cyborgs and ubertroopers to give them a massive army, nor the time to cough up one from thin air. They will need support from the Houses, and their best bet is to sell their tech and buy what they can.
The hidden worlds stuff, one hidden world as fall back for the Primus and such as a bolt hold, sure, that is logical, anything more than that, and we have entered the world of lousy pulp fiction and just needs Drs. Frankenstein and Moreau to appear any minute...and yes, the Clans would have the star charts and know the worlds are there. As dimwitted as the Clans are to how the Inner Sphere acts, they (Clans) are not idiots and will be looking for oddities. Clans like the Scoprions will have push Trials to have Seekers sent with each Invading Clan to look for certain things and watch for others. So they will notice the SLDF tech and see the units like the Light Horse and others that are former SLDF units. All will be reported to the ilKhan and Grand Council now if they choose to act or not. That is on them.
I could see ComStar, or what remains of it, holding on to their warship tech for as long as they can, or maybe as things fall apart, parts of the organization bolt for the FWL and the FedSuns with the tech, and the FedSuns get the plans for larger engines. In comparison, the FWL gets the plans for smaller engines or something like that. This could be part of what causes ComStar to collapse, and we see it break into smaller groups. Lots of ideas for that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/15/22 11:22 PM
1.147.88.67
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You mean writers actually write the story with the end result already figured out?
When writers construct a story where from the onset the reader can determine the end it (the story) becomes too predictable and boring. In this case it was easy to see in the late 1980’s – early 1990’s that Clan Wolf was ‘the chosen Clan’ for the writers – so now, in the early 2020’s, now that they are written in as the il-clan it was just too easy to predict – a self-fulfilling prophecy!
Has no one ever considered writing a successful plot twist – inspiring a surprise ending – killing off Clan Wolf, import and reveal new Clan – the unpredictable ending.
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Whining that the IS doesn't have an SL is really stupid as the whole premise of this thread is that the clans make it during the initial invasion. What does this mean?
So the premise is that the IS Lords could not come together to support each other as a unified force against a common enemy.
They all decide to just fight those Clans that are in their borders only and ignore what is happening over the border – even if that means that this allows for certain internal clan invasion corridors to move faster, and thus have the possibility to get into your rear staging area, thus effectively out flanking your forces, just because you have an ideological problem with your neighbouring realm.
This is like saying that America would be fine with Germany rampaging through Europe whist saying to England – this is not our problem, so we refuse to provide any support – so no lend lease, no financial support – nothing – and when you ask why? The President hates the idea of the Commonwealth, and he would rather see Europe become part of a Nazi regime just so the Commonwealth economic club collapses.
So what happens when these Nazi’s invade Canada – still the US does nothing and says this is not our problem.
Great understanding of the situation facing each House Lord - Rather than realising it is better to hang together it is decided that each will hang individually just because they cannot get over the hate they have for the other.
So not one – FC, FRR, DC, or ComStar – could come together to form a unified front!
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Claiming someone is reading your comments and taking it to heart because they say something you like is beyond arrogant.
Claiming I am writing this to gain ‘likes’, demonstrates a lack of understanding as to why I am writing.
The objection is to supply all those who read this forum, and do not contribute, with a differing opinion, so that they can make a more informed opinion based upon all the information to hand and not just one individual.
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As the war is a major fight, the idea that the FS/FC has hundreds of regiments of mechs sitting on the sidelines shows a complete lack of thought.
Question – there are individual worlds within the FS/FC that have populations in the billions – which also have a high technology rating. So what you are saying is that they cannot establish a military industrial complex and they cannot establish modern military training facilities for conscripted civilians.
Then can you please explain how any country on Terra currently can do just this, and with less technology and less people? e.g. USA, Russia, China ….etc.
So how can a substitute USA world within the IS make their military industrial complex and at the same time make their militaries – your answer is simple they cannot as the House Lord has not provided them with the facilities or the means of training their conscripts. They just cannot do this on their own!
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[And those ones that are sitting in garrison are NOT waiting for the CC to act. They are scattered around the FC trying to keep pirates and others from taking the underdefended worlds.
So anyone with any sort of intelligence can figure out, as an example, that USA and NATO should pull the majority of their forces off the borders with Russia or North Korea, as an example, and then have these forces redeployed to hunting down pirates in both Africa and South America as we can trust Russia and North Korea not to do anything whist these forces are off hunting down pirates?
Really?
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Saying the GM has the right o change the premise
And in so doing the GM has created the what if / Alt. Universe scenario. The aim of this forum.
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This thread is to get ideas going.
“First, all Clans rear should be constantly be in a state of flux due to …
Partisan activities
Also shouldn’t all IS forces be using hidden worlds by this stage to attack Clans in the Centre of the Invasion corridor – again this is not that hard to do and can be easily maintained with hidden logistic routes – that the Clans will now have to send their naval forces out to find!
Constant Raiding of Clan rear worlds close to periphery to disrupt logistics – the soft underbelly of the Clans!
PGS (manned by freeborn) crossing sides to the IS as they realise they will have a better life with the IS than that of their tyrannical True born overlords – IS psyops teams earning their dinner!.
IS Naval fleets engaging Clan Logistic Fleets + Clan Naval support within the Periphery – disrupting Logistics / replacement personnel.
Frontal Attack force by all new IS SLDF upon all clans utilizing WW2 Italy defence protocol – Attrition Warfare to grind the Clans down.
If any Clan moves forces to the front leaving any planet under garrisoned – IS spy will send a message – planet invaded for recapture and possible trap for any force sent to recapture the world.”
So, therefore, none of these can be considered to be new ideas? Can you please therefore provide your list of what is considered to be a ‘new idea’ when fighting the Clans?
Also as stated many times previously my new realm is completely and utterly divergent from that of BattleTech’s cannon – and as such I do not have to justify anything to anyone.
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So would the flanking clans have any real chance to attack the inner clans holdings?
Then how are wars of reaving as well as Trials of Possession going to occur when replacement personnel become scarce or when logistics fleets do not arrive?
Just shrug it off, combine units and just switch to energy weapons?
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Or are they so busy with dealing with the FC/DC that they can't get enough forces to do anything but harass them?
Question – Trial of Harass – where is this discussed within the circle of equals when clan forces fight one another?
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possibly set up Comstar having to garrison the worlds directly in the path to Terra, near Terra.
So ComStar is going it alone – telling both the FC and the DC to evacuate their worlds with their forces just so the Com Guard can fight the Clans on their own.
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Might even suggest the houses 'abandon' those worlds in order to avoid getting the forces trapped
So the House Lords have decided to abandon some worlds so that others can be defended – and they have also decided to remove Jumpships in this area also … so better to move them now before the fighting ensures … these worlds are now open worlds!
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I would think that within 4 jumps of Terra, the first Comstar/clan warship conflicts would start, if they haven't already done so.
And once again prove that the ComGuard is commanded by social hacks. Does no one even bother to read Rommel anymore, and what he said about D-day?
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They were only put there to set up for a time when Comstar decided a military strike on the houses was right.
Yes this makes military sense – divide your forces into enough parts so that hey are on every world with a HPG. Maintaining RCTs is just a waste of time of energy.
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would Comstar open up sales to the houses? I don't think they have the trained personnel to pilot all of what they produce
So, would ComStar want to keep the FC or the DC in the War, by supplying military aid, or would they rather prefer they knocked out of the war, by holding it back.
Also doesn’t ComStar believe in conscription even when faced with certain defeat of Terra? As with conscription they could manufacture all the personnel they require.
Also has ComStar adopted a total war economic footing by now or are they waiting to 1 minute to midnight to commence?
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I can imagine the DC would have more warriors then machines
Yes it is so very difficult to manufacture conventional military vehicles.
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I would think Comstar would start selling to the houses. This would be true for jumpships
Does this mean that ComSar has enough Jumpships for their ComGuard as well as for a possible evacuation of Terra and as well as a surplus number JumpShips at the same time?
Especially since no one else has surpluss JumpShips available – after all the fighting against my plans to combat the clans and was told that the IS doesn’t have enough ….
Or does ComStar have secret fleets of JumpShips hidden away just like their hidden worlds at this stage?
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the need for Comstar to move some manufacturing to other worlds.
When is this to commence – how much of a disruption to existing production – how many units will not receive their allotted new vehicles etc due to this move?
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The hidden worlds C _ _ _ has to go.
Does this include all former ComStar (then WoB) hidden worlds? As this will also mean that Thomas Marik (real) is dead – so what does this mean for the fake Thomas?
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The Clans would know what is there
This should be good, how? No, really, how could they (the Clans) send someone to investigate them all. When for every system that is known there are thousands that are unknown and at the same time if you place a space station in the space between systems the possible number of points becomes infinitesimally high number. The ability to search, therefore, “every determinable point” becomes quite an impossibility.
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This could also play a part in the engine issue for warships. Comstar might have to sell them sooner, rather then later, to the houses.
For a what if scenario – why stick with the limitations of canon warships – only ComStar can provide engines, except for when WoB takes over, and then every IS House is able to make their own.
Thus the point of ComStar being the only suppliers of warship engines becomes irrelevant.
Q.E.D. Every IS House has the ability to manufacture warship engines from the get-go – they never had to rely upon ComStar! Thus IS Houses should have been able to manufacture warships prior to 3050.
Also wouldn’t R&D upon warship engines over time provide the correct thrust – otherwise why put it in if it cannot keep an adequate velocity to fight. That is you are paying an astronomical amount of money for a defective product – so what’s the point?
With warships – what you want is a pocket battleship – small, fast, agile and yet with the largest Naval grade lasers in multiple turrets … the battleship Bismarck of its time!
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which won't appear twice after the first time the Clans machine gun everyone
Don’t bet on it! So the angry mob didn’t work, big deal!
Do you not remember the Irish war of independence – the time of troubles or how about the Vietnamese – war with the French and then with the Americans … didn’t work then wont work in the future …
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After a few generations, the youthful, un-educated, propaganda-brainwashed populations thought the Falcons were just awesome - it was fertile ground for Operation Hollywood to disrupt.
So all schools were cancelled? So are you saying the Clans are the Taliban of their day? … So how is that working in Afghanistan now? So how will an entire react to a proclamation that all schools are now closed and you are effectively killing of the future of every child on the planet – so as a parent how would you react if you were told your child would never be allowed to be educated? – So, you do realise that this is the spark that will start a flame that will engulf the world in a perpetual war against the Clans until they are all dead and gone!
Also how does this work when you (as the Clans) want to create a highly productive workforce, given that everyone is supposed to be uneducated?
One further point the IS is far more superior to the Clans at creating Hollywood films that that of the Clans – so shouldn’t this work in reverse? How many freeborn should have defected to the IS in the same period?
So the IS ‘fertile ground’ should have been far more destructive to the clans as the IS had to only convince a small number of individuals – where as the Clans had to convince whole planets.
Sorry, but from a marketing perspective the IS Target Market can be narrowed quicker and with a greater precision than that of the Clans – we are NOT a homogeneous market remember there are a vast number of differences that make individuals, individuals. An entire population would have a vast number of groups – try marketing to them all at the same time – good luck with that scenario – so, let me say this is once more THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN – CAN WE HAVE A LITTLE REALISM PLEASE?
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They didn’t have that
I agree with Karagin – there is absolutely no way the Clans can garrison the majority of their captured IS worlds if the majority of the population refuses to be integration system.
Given that some worlds within the IS exceed the entire population of certain clans there is no way they will ever have the troops to garrison their holdings in the IS.
That said TPTB should have come up with a better scenario to get the IS people onto the side of the invader.
Re-write the clans into SLDF Paladins who will bring back the golden age of humanity – any captured world receives an upgrade to essential services – Hospitals – Education – food production. And at the same time are treated with respect and dignity by their new overlords – guess how many will sign on to assist with the Star League revolution to bring back that which was lost?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/15/22 11:31 PM
70.118.172.64
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One thing I don't see ComStar doing is working well with the other Houses. There are centuries of mistrust between them, so that is going to be something not easily put to the side. The FC forces will be the least trusting, and the DC forces will trust to a certain level, but not to the point of entirely having them in on all levels of planning.
I would expect the FC and the DC to have contingency plans in place, ready to go, f ComStar tries to pull a fast one. You know, like abandons a planet or two. Things like that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/16/22 12:00 AM
1.147.88.67
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One thing I don't see ComStar doing is working well with the other Houses. There are centuries of mistrust between them, so that is going to be something not easily put to the side.
No, its not as if its like the English and the French – who have fought against each other for centuries – could put their animosity aside and work together to fight the Germans in two world wars.
Needs must as the Devil drives. Peoples and Countries will form alliances when threated by a common outside threat.
Thus I disagree – if ComStar wants to survive for longer than 5 minutes it will have to join the alliance to fight the Clans. What they will try to do, however, is to push the agreement between all parties in their favour if the can – such as the C.O. of the combined military is ComStar - or to put their people into key positions they can exploit i.e. key person in intelligence who can feed ComStar all the workings of their allies and the enemy – that they can exploit for their own goals.
All the parties will not initially trust the others – trust will take time and the spilling of blood for a common goal.
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I would expect the FC and the DC to have contingency plans in place
There would be multiple contingency plans on contingency plans. As there should be a room somewhere where people just create what if scenarios for their governments and then attempt to determine the best course of action – the ruler would then ask a series of questions and a number of scenarios could then be provided to the ruler from which they could determine the best course of action.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 02:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is a problem with if Comstar pulls out from defending a world that the IS has already pulled out of. At this point, the clans would be close enough to Terra, that if Comstar doesn't defend certain worlds, then Terra is the next fight. This comes from the idea of the FC/DC pulling forces away from near Terra, due to the fear of those forces being surrounded. Like when it was suggested the DC might pull back those forces to defend what they still had.
I was not suggesting the houses contract Comstar to defend them. Comstar would see they had to do something to hurt the clans, maybe even hoping to stop them before they hit Terra.
Hope that clears that up.
Given the fact the clans are close at this point, would Comstar have been pulling forces off worlds the clans already have taken? Or would they 'just start'?
I would think the clans have already figured Comstar was going to fight to prevent them taking Terra, so wouldn't trust them with the HPG network in their area. So it may well be the fighting has already stated on multiple worlds the clans control.
I can see a use for Vlad and the crusaders that followed him in the canon story. I could see Ulric using those very forces to start a large raid on the Falcons, causing them to pull forces off the fighting front, in order to prevent losing worlds to the Wolves. Their loyalty to the Wolves overcoming the idea of them being Crusaders, just as the canon line went, causing even more problems for the Falcons. This would result in Vlad's eventual death, but it would be yet another issue with holding up the Falcons. If you don't like using Vlad, then come up with another warrior that could be motivate to destroy the Falcons where ever they are. Possibly being humiliated by the Falcons in the past.
Which leads to another issue with Phelan. If he does leave the Wolves, timing is definitely needed. Cyril Ward
(I believe her name is), commits suicide to open up the blood name for him. This would not happen if he leaves before hand. She may well be the one that volenteers to take a force and hit the Falcons, rather then the canon suicide.
This also brings up questions of how far out the flankers take territory. The ARDC may never come to exist, which calls into question how the Kell Hounds make out. If Arc-Royal is taken, Morgan loses his noble title and resources of the world and area. I could very well see him doing a lot of raiding in the Falcon's flanks as well. Maybe even becoming a high ranking officer in the FC forces, or at least the LC ones.
If Phelan shows up, it could really help the raiders do some damage to the Falcons.
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Karagin
08/16/22 03:19 PM
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If Arc-Royal falls to the Falcons, I do not see Phelan leaving the Wolves. I see him asking Ulric to take in the Hounds or allowing them to join the Dragoons. Natashas would back him on that, I believe. Or, I could see him begging Ulric to let him take Arc-Royal for the Wolves from the Falcons. Also, I could see him playing the political game and taking Vlad with him. This would show he is learning new levels of Great Game and keeping an enemy close.
I could see the Falcons and Vipers pushing well past Thakard and hard towards the FWL border and sweeping up much of the former RWR worlds along the LC's Periphery. Which would play well since it would be more payback for past treasons etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/16/22 03:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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I was referring to ComStar pulling out worlds as things are pushed down towards Terra,
Example: Kochab is a world where the FC and ComStar are dug-in to defend against the Falcons. They have made joint defense plans, etc...then two days after the fighting has started, the ComGuard gets orders to pull out and head for Moore because a ComStar Precentor feels Moore is more important to things in the long run than Kochab. Let that happen a couple of times, and we will see the FC forces start to turn their guns on the ComGuard. Or make it so they "accidentally" pull back their own forces on the planet and leave the ComGuard units facing the full brunt of the attacking Clan units.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 04:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated, when Phelan leaves is very important to the story line. There is so many things that would change, or could change.
And Arc-Royal could well fall to say the Vipers, or another clan, if they are called for. It doesn't have to be the Falcons, though it would add in even more issues with the Falcons issues.
Ok. I understand where you were going with Comstar pulling out. I hadn't thought about them trying to coordinate with the houses. I was just thinking they were left to guard a world, as the IS had moved their forces to better protect or hit the clans weaker points. Much like the discussed concept of them not getting cut off. Guess I didn't put as much thought into it as I should have.
The idea of pushing out from the corridors isn't so much south, but west on the map. Pushing towards Coventry being the idea, verses keeping a shrinking corridor trying to get as many forces to Terra as possible. That is the ultimate goal, and one that the Falcons would pass up taking Defiance and such in order to gain. Once the Ilclan is theirs, then they would deal with Defiance and such.
And no. I don't think they would pass up a golden opportunity if one presented itself. I believe they are more concerned with beating the other clans, then taking territory at this point.
A thought just came up. The crusaders taking Terra could well mean the end of the Wardens as well, as the crusaders would probably push to outlaw the warden thought pattern from the clans. This could well be a means to destroy the Wolves for all of the past humilities they suffered. It would remove the biggest threat to the crusaders.
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Karagin
08/16/22 06:18 PM
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I could see the Crusaders forcing a change in how the Wolves self-govern if, say, the Falcons get Terra. However, at this point, I don't see the Crusader Khan of the Falcon's caring much about Warden or Crusader politics being a big issue until the entire Inner Sphere is under the banner of the ilClan.
Remember, the Crusaders want to control ALL of the Inner Sphere under the new ideal of a Star League they set up. So, until they have crushed the last House military unit, they will play friendly with each Clan seeing how they will need troops to fight the Houses.
Phelan is a topic that we need to figure out what he offers from all angles. We have one version (canon), so what would things look like from each counterpoint? He stays with the Wolves, similar to Canon, but no Truce happens, and we have the Wolves howling right on the door of Terra. He stays with the Wolves but never makes it far in the ranks. He escapes and runs to daddy with some tech specs and maybe a mech. He stays with the Wolves and is off fighting the Falcons to keep things under control for Ulric and the LC population content in the rear. Not like that's going to work well on worlds away from the borders. Folks who aren't used to being beaten down will push back after a while.
He might be a separate topic that we can address in more detail, looking at different points about him.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 06:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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I believe we can not finish this thread without knowing what happens to Phelan and when. Canon has him taking a world without a shot. If he leaves before then, then that does not happen. So that changes a few things, including embarrassing the other clans, and forwarding the notion that freeborns are not the worthless garbage promoted by most of the clans.
There are other possibilities that can be done with him, that are not even considered in canon. One being a diplomat or envoy of the Wolves to the rest of the IS. As the Warden agenda is not to take over the entire IS, but guard it, would that become the way of the entire clans if the Wolves become the Ilclan? I doubt the crusaders would let the slide for long, but not sure how much they could really do without the political position of Ilclan.
But I do agree there is a lot of potential in dealing with just what if with Phelan. One big what if would be if he did not let Natasha have the extra kill? She would have let him die, according to her own words. And she would not be a star Colonel either. Cyril not having to suicide changes things as well. And he would not be there to help Ulric in the future. This is assuming the treason trial does not happen as well.
As for the Crusaders changing the clans if they won, I believe they would force the Wardens to be absorbed into the other clans, to make sure the warden ideology doesn't spread among the clans. With this thread, it seems the Wolves don't have to worry about that, though not sure if the others would try to initiate a trial of absorbtion in the future.
A possible outcome might be Phelan does escape, and brings enough tech to help hold the clans to Terra and their corridors, and get a stale mate. Maybe even retake a few worlds. Nothing to force the clans out, but enough to weaken the crusaders hold over the clans beyond them losing to the Wolves.
One such tech could be the lesser crit needing normal weapons. This could open up units to carrying more heat sinks, as crit room would not be so tight in some units. That little fact seems to be missing in the rule books since the clan invasion. There doesn't seem to be a notation or even table set up showing this.
I would think this little fact is retconned out of the game because it allows the IS to get closer to the clans tech advantage.
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Karagin
08/16/22 06:58 PM
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All good points to look at. We can toss something things around.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/16/22 09:16 PM
1.147.88.67
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if Comstar doesn't defend certain worlds, then Terra is the next fight
If the Clans are that close then maybe the best thing you could do is concentrate all your forces on one world and fight the final fight.
But if the Clans are that close then it might be time to realise that ComStar’s (and the IS’s) forces have already lost Terra – time to evacuate and declare the world Open.
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… due to the fear of those forces being surrounded
You do realise that surrounding your forces in space is an impossibility – being marooned however is another topic all together.
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the DC might pull back those forces to defend what they still had.
Again … you do realise the clans are moving in a straight line, that said it is very easy to quantify what is remaining especially when the Clans are tapering (narrowing) their invasion corridor to conserve resources. Thus the number of worlds the DC has can be easily quantified – they still have a great empire at hand if and when the Clans take Terra.
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… houses contract Comstar to defend them
You do realise that the Com Guard are not a mercenary unit to be bought and sold.
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… maybe even hoping to stop them before they hit Terra
This can only be done if all become one to form a single SLDF.
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would Comstar have been pulling forces off worlds the clans already have taken? Or would they 'just start'?
Ha? If the Clans have taken a world this means that they have pacified it already – i.e. all forces have been either destroyed or captured. Thus there will be no Com Guard forces to evacuate.
So if you want any Com Guard forces best evacuate them either prior to invasion or during the invasion – as post invasion there will be no Com Guard to evacuate.
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I would think the clans have already figured Comstar was going to fight to prevent them taking Terra, so wouldn't trust them with the HPG network in their area.
Yes the existence of the Com Guard would be known by the Clans – what wasn’t known was if ComStar would fight, as all they were demonstrating to date was that of a pacifist .
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So it may well be the fighting has already stated on multiple worlds the clans control.
ComStar was acting as the mediator between the Clans and that of the people of the world they were on. That said – no Comstar acolyte was engaged in open hostilities with the Clans – the people of any world however would be engaged in partisan activity against the Clans.
So the question becomes are ComStar’s people are assisting the partisans (covertly)?
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I could see Ulric using those very forces to start a large raid on the Falcons, causing them to pull forces off the fighting front, in order to prevent losing worlds to the Wolves
And if Marthe Pryde is as intelligent as I believe she is, she will see this a great opportunity.
Pull her forces off these worlds of no real strategic value. Give them to the Wolves – now they will have to garrison these worlds with their forces (thus reducing the number of their front line forces). Whist at the same time increasing the number of her Jade Falcon front line forces to continue the fight, and possibly increase their velocity, to reaching Terra first.
So own goal for the Wolves!
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This would result in Vlad's eventual death
Yay, Katrina now has no Clan entanglements!
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Phelan Kell-Ward
Cyrilla Ward – suicide 3052 https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cyrilla_Ward
Question how difficult is it to use the Wiki to find this information?
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The ARDC may never come to exist
Depends on the GM / players and how they would structure the history of their what if / Alt. History game.
THE ARDC could have been established by Melissa Steiner and Morgan Hasek-Davion at the fist Stages of the War of Invasion as Commander of the AFFC will use it as a means of fighting the clans. Create a separate area with a dedicated Lord (Morgan Kell) who’s duty is to assist with the war of attrition / partisan strikes / attacking Clan logistic transports / assisting with PsyOps / Assisting with OpFor training etc. Thus by having a dedicated Lord for this area, this will provide the AFFC with an easier time when it comes to combating the Clans – gets rid of the red tape as it were.
Thus the ARDC will now stretch the entire length of the Clan Invasion Corridor.
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If Arc-Royal is taken, Morgan loses his noble title and resources of the world and area
Sorry but no Morgan does not loose his noble title – this is not a cracker jack prize – he retains his title (though in absentia / exile is noted against his title – remember the king of Norway etc when he was in exile in England during WW2)
His resources however are lost if Arc Royal is taken.
if Phelan and the wolves in exile turn up – this means the Wolves / Falcons have undergone a war – What this will also mean is the Forces under his Father and Morgan Hasek-Davion will now be invading both Falcon / Wolf space with the aim of reclaiming lost territory – destroying / capturing both the Falcons / Wolves.
If Phelan is turning up on his own – he is an IS spy / Clan Warden representative bringing valuable information to the IS ….
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If Arc-Royal falls to the Falcons, I do not see Phelan leaving the Wolves. I see him asking Ulric to take in the Hounds or allowing them to join the Dragoons.
I’m sorry but you have lost me here.
Taking in the Hounds – you do realise that the Kell Hounds are a Zealot force dedicated to the Lyran people and especially Melissa Steiner (They are Heimdall – the loyal opposition remember) (also Morgan Kell would view Melissa as a daughter to him) and they are not some kind of pet for the clans to adopt!
As for the Dragoons – they are an independent / renegade military unit as far as the Wolves are concerned who are also traitors to the Clans – thus Ulric has no say in what they do – as far as he is concerned they are to killed on sight!
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Natasha would back him on that
Natasha is of a ‘grandmotherly’ age so her only position would be either in a solhama unit or on a retirement on Outreach.
As how is someone her age expected to win a trial of position against a twenty something in the peak of their prime?
A little reality please.
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Or, I could see him begging Ulric to let him take Arc-Royal for the Wolves
Outside of the invasion corridor and how are the wolves expected to garrison and provide a logistics network through the Falcons to maintain this world? Sorry but a wast of resources to even consider this a possibility as Ulric needs to keep his eye on the prize as it were – i.e. Terra.
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I could see the Falcons and Vipers pushing well past Thakard and hard towards the FWL border and sweeping up much of the former RWR worlds along the LC's Periphery.
First Tharkad is so far distant from their invasion corridor towards Terra you have to ask what the point is - massive requirement in Logistics and manpower that could be better utilized in reaching Terra first.
Second taking former RWR worlds - what is the point? as most are now barren wastelands with nothing to offer – also strategically they are along the periphery border far form anything of any real importance – the real action and the real fame is in taking Terra and every world close to Terra – that includes all FWL worlds close to Terra.
Also if you want to go this far from the invasion corridor wouldn’t the Falcons be contemplating this Post Capture of Terra – not Pre Capture as you are just diverting troops and logistics that could be better utilized in taking Terra in the first place.
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Let that happen a couple of times, and we will see the FC forces start to turn their guns on the ComGuard.
This is why you need a centralized chain of command!
In this eventuality the FC have no choice but to make heir plans with the absence of the Com Guard in mind.
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Or make it so they "accidentally" pull back their own forces on the planet and leave the ComGuard units facing the full brunt of the attacking Clan units.
And by now these childish antics have ensured that the new SL and the new SLDF will never be formed as there is no trust.
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when Phelan leaves is very important to the story line
No what happens to Phelan when captured is what is important – is he going to be a spy for the IS or will he become Khan this is what is important …
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Arc-Royal could well fall to say the Vipers
Only after one hell of a massive battle(s) involving a massive number of units.
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Once the Ilclan is theirs, then they would deal with Defiance and such.
Yes.
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I believe they are more concerned with beating the other clans, then taking territory at this point.
Yes.
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The crusaders taking Terra could well mean the end of the Wardens as well
No not necessarily – the warden / crusader ideology will transfer over to how they expect to treat the captured IS civilians – crusaders, little better than slaves as they are only barbarians; wardens – must educate them to see the error of their ways.
So no destroying of clans – as you want to make the wardens to admit their error, rather than destroying them – it is more fun to rub their noses in the dirt as it were!
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forcing a change in how the Wolves self-govern
Sorry but this is only achieved after a Trial of Absorption.
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they will play friendly with each Clan seeing how they will need troops to fight the Houses
Sorry again but no – if a Clan becomes weak it should be either destroyed or absorbed – this is the true way of the Clans!
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being a diplomat or envoy of the Wolves to the rest of the IS
When and what is his remit / aims?
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the Crusaders changing the clans if they won, I believe they would force the Wardens to be absorbed into the other clans
And what ever is left over – expect them to picked over by the forces of the IS.
Just remember the sibko – how are all the clans expected to replace all the lost warriors after such a massive internal civil war.
Also what happens to your precious Crusader faction if the Wardens win the majority of the Trial of Absorptions? This will put the Crusader faction on the back foot.
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Phelan does escape, and brings enough tech to help hold the clans to Terra and their corridors, and get a stale mate
When does this occur – remember it will take a considerable amount of time to re-tool the entire IS military industrial complex – and for them to produce new tech in numbers to replace existing tech – and for it them to be shipped to the front and be intergrated into existing forces for their use.
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allows the IS to get closer to the clans tech advantage.
Given that the only reason the IS couldn’t reverse engineer Clan tech was it was too expensive – all I can say is that no one has ever perused the military budget lately.
There is no such thing as too expensive – it is just ordered no matter the cost.
Thus the military is happy and the military industrial complex is happy – massive profit margin and dividend this year!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/17/22 02:57 PM
70.118.172.64
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I say we go with Phelan saving Ulric and Vlad after the suicide run event. This causes a change to the use of Warships by the Clans since they now see a significant weakness and need to fix it. Phelan returns to his own when he takes a world with no shots fired. That puts him on a level that Ulric sees both Khan's leadership level and a bridge between the Inner Sphere and the Clans. So he starts to groom him for both roles with Natasha's help.
Using her contacts with the Dragoons, they let Morgan know Phelan is alive and that Ulric wants to talk. This could be how Ulric, in a roundabout way, starts to aid the Inner Sphere while still pushing to get his Clan on Terra and thus winning to prevent the bloodbath he fears from a Crusader victory. Phelan retains importance as a central figure and Khan but doesn't overshadow anyone else too much. Tweak as you want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/17/22 07:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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That sounds pretty good.
What happens with Phelan's rep after the IS learns he was the one taking Gunzburg without a shot? I know there will have to be answers to this and a few other things, as there will be those that hated him, trying to turn him into a traitor, which might actually be true. But I can see those people starting up something that they can't control and get killed for.
If Phelan can prove his actions have allowed him to 'bargain' for a stop of the invasion outside of Terra and the corridors, most may well accept this, and 'forgive' him. Some may well praise him for teaching the FRR a lesson in treating others with some sort of respect. Again, possible things to look over.
Now a few more questions.
Does Morgan use his position and authority to help Phelan get the high level discussions going to at least reduce the crusaders influence over the others?
It may just be something like having the Falcons meet the Kell Hounds and a few others in combat on a world, much like Tukayid, but no truce with it. Just to show the crusaders how much surprise and comstar keeping the coms shut down in the IS actively helped the crusaders during the first part, and showing what happens when the crusaders are not striking from the shadows, or having Comstar keep the hits quiet.
This would enrage most of the invasion clans as it would be shown as the truth, that they did NOT follow traditions in their dealings with the first couple of waves. It could, but doubtful it would, cause so much shame on the Falcons and Jaguars, the other crusaders yank them out of the IS for their lack of honor in not challenging and broadcasting their victories, like a true clan would.
Or it could force a large trial of refusal, and set forth a new round of trials to see if others will replace them in the IS.
A little out there, but something that could work.
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Requiem
08/17/22 10:15 PM
1.147.88.67
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What happens with Phelan's rep after the IS learns he was the one taking Gunzburg without a shot?
This is only achieved if someone sends a message out just after the surrender via HPG.
As shortly thereafter ComStar Acolytes have been ordered to assist Clans with transfer of power management - thus no HPG messages will be allowed from this point onward – i.e. radio blackout!
The only other means is via Black Box – however as this is a FRR world they should not have one. That is unless there is either a FC or DC spy with a Black box – and if used then their opposite number should have been able to pick up the message also!
So that puts the kibosh on that scenario.
Thus back to the HPG scenario.
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If Phelan can prove his actions have allowed him to 'bargain' …
Way too late for that … he was in a mech shooting at allied forces … he is now an enemy combatant, and will be treated as such!
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Does Morgan use his position and authority to help Phelan get the high level discussions going to at least reduce the crusaders influence over the others?
Depends on how this is set up and what he is offering and the person within the Clans that he is representing …
He will have to tread very carefully, first contact with the FC could be his last .. he will also have to get to someone whom believes his credentials as a Clan diplomatic envoy … and not as a traitor that needs to be shot on sight.
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Phelan betraying ComStar
This will get political very fast … expect someone to put a bounty on Phelan’s head for this!
That said, however, can ComStar survive such a revelation – all of the first circuit will have to go to appease the remaining House Lords, plus the ComGuars and all their resources will be provided to - AFFC, AF-FRR, DCMS at the minimum.
Also all HPGs in the Clan OZ will now go partisan – supplying info to all IS Houses.
Quote:
cause so much shame on the Falcons and Jaguars, the other crusaders yank them out of the IS
Not going to happen – they are not fighting fellow Clans – they are fighting Barbarian IS sur-rats so no loss in hour as honourable fighting is only between true warriors – fellow clansmen and women.
So, no I doubt this would work.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/18/22 12:07 AM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see Morgan going through that kind of trouble. I see him doing something like Jamie did, taking things right to Hanse and Theodore, getting them to see the issues inside the Clans on the political levels.
Then he can offer some updates that Phelan might have given as to what the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedCom, so they see how serious Ulric is. The information given could be on the levels of what each Clan is doing to deal with issues internally or what they have as weaknesses, things like that.
Yeah, many things can spin from here, depending on how well Morgan can convince Hanse and Theodore to listen. He will most likely need Jamie's help on that endeavor. Even then, it will be a hard sell. When you look at things, a lot of blood has been spilled. The Clans are now replacing a lot of the hate many had for the neighboring nations. So going forward, it's going to be a tough sell to get on the borders of Clans space not to be trusting when it comes to the Clans. Something that should still be an issue even in the current canon.
Phelan should be necessary but not on the level he was in the original canon. He might hold fame and be saKahn of the Wolves, but his footprint won't be the same level as long as Ulric lives and the Wolves take Terra. Even with his role as Ambassador, he is just one cog in the machine that Ulric is piloting to put his Wolves on Terra.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/18/22 11:20 AM
45.51.181.83
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The argument of a lot of blood is spilled is the entire history of the succession wars, with the big exception is it being fresh and still happening. The counter to this, comes from the fact the clans are not one to just destroy a city for the hell of it. They go after the enemy, no matter where they are. If the defenders do not hide in a city, then they try to avoid the collateral damage the succession wars did.
This is not saying the dead warriors and the few citizens that stood up to them is to be forgotten. The clans were not known for hiding in cities, though I do suspect they would if they were really desperate.
The politics of the clans is much like the IS. Each nation has their own quirks. No one can really predict what the CC will do, and that is partially true with the clans. For being tradition bound, the Jaguars and Falcons violated some of the traditions held dearly by the clans. They would have had to have known the IS had no idea on their batchall, so would not deal with it as the clans do. That is if it was even issued, like the Falcons didn't during the initial invasion.
Knowing such things would definitely help the IS when dealing with them. Calling out the lack of honor would force even the members of that clan to feel the shame of ignoring their traditions, and make the commanding people look weak and dishonorable. Yes, it would also enrage them as they got called out by less the dezgra bandits.
TPTB put Phelan into a very powerful position for the story line. It is interesting that he did not play a much bigger part in the later stories. With the knowledge he did bring to Arc-Royal, I would think they would have had an SDS system working, though that retcon would have removed the Falcons taking out the sibko set up there. It would also remove the ability for land combat in almost all situations.
This also calls into question on why the clans didn't have the SDS guarding the genetic repositories. The Wolverines situation would never have occurred if it did. The fighter would never have made it to the position to be shot down.
Even just a few ground based naval weapons would have stopped the slaughter of the children.
There is also the issue of the clans ways were not resisted on Arc-Royal. No matter what, the people would be protesting the clans ways, as they would have spilled into normal life in the area. Even wardens would be highly arrogant and expect the populace to obey the warriors demands.
But this might not happen as the Falcon-Wolf war does not happen.
i guess figuring out just how far the clans get is necessary for other worlds such as possibly hitting the FWL or taking Tharkad. This changes a lot of things on just how the IS would even try to deal with the clans. Almost everything would have to be rewritten for the future.
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Karagin
08/18/22 09:42 PM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Arc-Royal thread being important once things change in this version of events. While Phelan remains important he is not the second coming of anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/18/22 09:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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I would think Arc-Royal would be under clan rule if the clans did spread out from the corridor concept. Or be part of the resistance to it.
The thoughts came up thinking about how different things became important. Granted the only reason the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon came into existence was to remove a chunk of the LC/LA out of Katherine hands, during the Civil war.
The idea of Phelan helping ease the issues between clan and IS was just to try and avoid a full take over from the Clans, or start a full scale death match between them.
It could be possible that Phelan is killed by someone once they figure out who he is, and what he became to the clans. I can see him believing he is immune to being sniped as his father is Morgan Kell, so doesn't believe he needs protection while moving among worlds of the of LC. His part could well have played out before Terra is fully taken, or even before.
This may also push Ulric into being that much harsher on the Comstar defenders, as they may well have been the ones to do so. The same effect could happen to Natasha, depending on if she is still alive at this point.
As a side note, if Comstar did pop Phelan, this could have a very nasty effect on Morgan and even the Dragoons.
If Phelan becomes Khan of the Wolves, then there is a problem. He would become the big focus. I would suggest he either get killed or embarrassed so this doesn't happen.
Though this could be used to tarnish his reputation and rise. If alive, how does he handle the old LC commanders that he thought were social generals?
How does he handle the IS being the head of the Ilclan?
Does it go to his head? I think removal is a better way to go.
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Karagin
08/18/22 10:39 PM
70.118.172.64
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He would be just a Khan of the Wolves, not the ilKhan; the Clan still needs a Khan. And he is only a saKhan. Natasha is the Khan.
He would not be running wacking off heads as others might. He would be more concerned with how the Wolves' caste system played out with the conquered planets and how the people integrated. Now he would like to be a target for rebels and other groups. That right there could be an excellent way to keep him limited in the scope of overall importance, since he will be dealing with all of that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/19/22 02:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Not sure if Natasha will outlive Ulric. When they take Terra, the Ilkhan will be passed down to the next in line, or so it would be assumed. Even if Natasha did inherit it, unless battle takes Phelan, he would be in line for the title. Granted, it could be taken out of his hands by a successful challenge by another, though definitely keeping Vlad out of this story line.
Prince Ragnar is another thing that hasn't been discussed. Does he rise to even Star Captain, as he does not have any sort of blood name he could get, being a freeborn.
Reinforcements for all, not just the Wolves should be gone over as well. Unless they had increased the amount of sibkos years before the vote, would a reavening happen? Or something else done to keep the numbers there?
The wolves would use the PGCs, but even they are limited, and any stigma might prevent the trueborn front line warriors from accepting them into their units. Bondsmen could solve part of this issue. Just not sure how much of it.
Do you think at least the Wolves might start using vehicles in the front lines? This could help to offset some of the losses they would suffer. The biggest issue is the agreed upon bid. Though not sure if the Wolves actually had one. They were forced into the invasion, but I don't recall a bid for what they would bring. I think it was just stating what they were going to bring and that was it. The fact they only had 2 warships with them suggests there was a simple statement, not a bid.
As a full roster of the clans that did participate is not available, it does question on how many units each still have in the home worlds. The fact the Bears brought their people into the IS should mean they have more then a few units that were not part of the bid to draw from, and without anything back home, they would have a major advantage to replace warriors that were hurt.
I will suggest the Wolves thought this out and had a few 'extra guards' on their supply ships, so they could take them and put them into the units as needed. Not a full fix, but enough to keep units somewhat intact. It might also be an idea to have them build a station near the IS that they could assemble mechs that were taken apart so they could ship more of them without the need for mech carrying dropships. This could also be just something on world, instead of a station. An inflatable building like the Dragoons had in their canon story might work well here.
I would also think having a yardship some where close would be another idea to help keep them in good shape.
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ghostrider
08/19/22 02:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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Do you think that the people that were to become WOB, would go rogue and actually attack the clans without orders?
Or would they propose the Comstar actually surrender or become an extension of the clans?
As the split was just a power grab, cloaked in the righteousness of religion, both questions sound like neither would be the outcome. I would believe they would be the first to break and run, possibly to the FWL and the fake Thomas before the clans could take Terra. But losing Terra removes a large chunk of their power hold they had in canon.
It does remove their 'tech' jump as well.
The SDS system really needs it's own thread to discuss just how screwed up the history of canon is with that retcon.
The system would have made the clans different then what we got. The clans would have had to focus more on space craft more then what they did. As they did have warship battles, this system would have pushed for better spacecraft.
And none of the canon ships have any sort of system on it that operates like it, or counters it, that I know of.
It is probable that if the clans did have this on their warships, the suicide run would have failed.
I believe it could also act like an AMS as well. Maybe even taking out capital missiles. They could also be used as a screen against enemy fire, by getting in the line of fire, hoping to block some shots.
The DC side with their bushido outlook would be a mess. If following it closely, the DCMS may well be destroyed about the time the clans hit Luthien. I can see the troops staying far to long, and losing so much machinery, that they could not field much in a short time frame. This would also be compounded by the Black Dragon Society. Their strikes may well inflame the Jaguars and Cats to the point of making more collateral damage then normal for a clan fight. Maybe even having them specifically destroying jumpships to make sure it could not happen again.
Which also brings up the point of jumpships in general.
Would the clans target them anyways?
As the clans were not hurting for jumpships, I think they would eventually see that as a way to lock the enemy in place on worlds.
I could see this being a major reason why they are able to take Terra, as the IS would have issues trying to respond to anything they did. No transports to even shift additional forces to world under attack, or even try counter attacks.
Until warships get on the scene, this could really limit the IS.
It may also support the CC strike on the FC. The CC would have ships to use, while the FC could be hurting badly, they couldn't more forces to counter them.
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