ghostrider
07/28/22 06:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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What do you think would have happened if the clans took Terra in the original invasion?
Say Ulric took the wolves to capture Terra.
This would also mean one of the others may have taken it as well.
It is pretty much assured that if the Falcons or Jaguars took it, there would be a continuation of fighting going on as they would not just sit and rule Terra, but try to eliminate those that brought down the SL in the first place. The house lords bear a lot of responsibility for that, but not as much as Amaris did. Still, they did nothing to prevent the fall of Terra, nor did they do anything to help take it back.
Do you think Ulric would have been able to control the Crusaders in both his clan and the others, and prevent them expanding and reclaiming the TH area? Do you think he would promote that very plan?
We can expand this to include more clans as the need for warriors will become necessary no matter which way this goes.
Which also means answering if the others would get involved as they were left out of the original invasion, and would see such duty as nothing more then a glorified PGC.
Would the clan in control be forced to give up their territories in the home worlds, as they could not keep control of the IS and those areas as well?
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Karagin
07/28/22 07:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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If the Wolves took Terra, we would have seen something akin to a new era of armed peace at first. The Clans would have been in the middle of shifting gears. The leaders at that time were political as much as they were battlefield warriors. Lots of Trials and challenges for all manner of things to get a new pecking order setup, regardless of what Ulric had in mind.
Mainly would have caused the Fed-Com to splinter back to the LC and FS parts since the drive to Terra would have physically done that. The Lyran worlds would be in a fight against the Falcons and the Vipers without any restraints. The FWL would have been on the defensive and trying to figure out what to do and rip pickings for the Falcons and Vipers. The Cap-Con would be a wild card. The Combine would be fighting for its life since the Jaguars would still be fighting to take what they wanted, and their anger of not being ilClan would be taken out on the Combine.
ComStar would be a mess. Their whole house of cards would be in ruin. They would be broken, no Word Of Blake, not as we know it. Some would flee to the FWL as per canon, but some would likely run to the Combine or the Fed-Suns. Most would be folded into the new Clan Wolf.
My question is, what happens to the merc units that are running around at this point?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/28/22 08:50 PM
1.147.82.21
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Sorry Karagin I would disagree with your assessment as to an era of new peace, I believe it would be the complete opposite in fact.
First, the Clans are akin to the Mongol in that they must prove their warrior spirit constantly – those Clans within the first invasion would desire to establish fiefdoms surrounding Terra – whist the central worlds should be considered to belong to whomever is the new il-Clan.
Thus every clan would be jostling for their empire as close to that of the il-Clans territory to prove their superiority to that of the new il-Clan / il-khan.
Thus the area surrounding Terra would become rife with challenges as to whom own what world - this will take time to settle down before borders can be considered established.
Second, politics – with the acquisition of Terra all clans would demand the capitol of Clan society be immediately transferred from Strana Mechty to Terra. What this would also necessitate is a second Clan invasion by those Clans whom were forced to remain behind within the Kerensky Cluster – i.e all Clans are now allowed to the right to join the crusade and establish their own fiefdoms within the Inner Sphere – just not as close to Terra as those who were within the first invasion.
Thus you can expect a new expanded invasion corridor from the periphery through to Terra within Lyran / Combine space.
What this will also necessitate is a new exodus of the Clan civilian caste to the Inner Sphere – to train the new serfs of the Clans on all conquered worlds and o build monuments to their thousand year Reich …
In my opinion what you will end up with Clan version of the Chaos March on steroids in a vast area surrounding Terra – as an example a clan version of the Republic of the Sphere – just way bigger.
However he problem is if you allow the Clan to beat each other silly whilst the remaining forces of the IS undergo expansion and re-armament at the same time then attack with an overwhelming show of force – attrition warfare – what you should end up with is Stalingrad (WW2) over a couple hundred worlds – no quarter asked or given!
The question is though can the Clans hold on given the tyranny of distance back to the Kerensky Cluster – and can they maintain communication with the Kerensky Cluster.
I would also like to point out with the majority of the Warriors gone this is the absolute perfect time for the scientists to rise up and take control of the Kerensky Cluster to establish a new Clan society.
Thus giving those Clans within the IS an interesting choice – remain and create a new empire (and in 10-20 years return to save the old empire – or save the old empire now.
As for ComStar – just like the Pope throughout history / many WW2 governments – they would just be considered to be ComStar in exile – probably in the FWL with the fake / Real Marik
This would also open up many issues with regards to how the internal politics of the IS would look like.
FWL and the CC can no longer sit out the war they are now both active participants and must act as such, for example.
As for Merc’s they do what they always have – fall back regroup and rearm – find a new employer with a large war chest and undertake the high risk / high pay jobs no one else would do.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/28/22 09:53 PM
70.118.172.64
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Hey Requiem, have you got that ALT for us yet?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/28/22 09:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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I would think that the FC might survive initially, as they do have the worlds from the FWL and CC near Terra.
Whether the clans immediately attack them is the key. The FRR would be history, that is almost certain. Not sure if the Ghost Bear Domain would arise or not.
Comstar might well be incorporated into the clans, as they were treated like long lost, but ignorant brothers of the clans. As Walterly would not have initiated Operation Scorpion yet, it is questionable whether they would turn on Comstar or not.
Also, this thread is asking if another clan took Terra as well, so it may not be the Wolves, though more likely then not, it would be.
I doubt they would allow the LC to continue to own and operation Defiance, as that was an SL built factory, and a good place to start making clantech.
But as questioned, would they take all the worlds that were originally the TH, as it was the base worlds of the SL?
Just because the clans might have Terra, doesn't mean the other realms folded at this point. They may well be launching major counter attacks, along with hitting the supply lines to the periphery that the clans would rely upon until retooling of factories could be done.
Bringing in hordes of workers from the home worlds would be necessary, as few in the IS are trained to produce clan tech, though it isn't that much of a jump from SL tech. It can be done, but how quickly?
There would not be a need for a second invasion wave, as most would come thru the invasion corridors already established, though later clans may well have to fight trials of possession for those worlds, as the original invaders might be 'allowed' to bid for worlds closer to Terra.
That is IF the clans would even allow the ones that lost the ability to move to the IS. Politics might come into play, but I doubt the Falcons and Jaguars would just allow anyone to come in to take their worlds.
There is also a chance the home clans might have some that refuse to come to the IS.
Given the numbers of reinforcements the clans can get, they may well have to concentrate on worlds around Terra, and leave it at that for a while.
I don't think the IS clans would allow the scientists to remain in the home worlds, as most are failed warriors or freeborns. That is far more power then the warriors would allow, even if they are ignorant of the scientists in the canon storyline.
As for mercs, i think they would be targets but most clanners would think they are bandits more then true warriors, if they keep with their initial views of them. They may well be targeted by the clanners for their lack of loyalty to any nation.
I would guarantee Outreach would be targeted to remove the Dragoons from there.
The question of if Vlad rises up to challenge Ulric would be an issue. That could change the scope of how things continue from that point.
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Karagin
07/28/22 10:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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The House Lords would still be fighting, and my point about the FC falling part is I don't see Ulric stopping at Terra; I see him taking the old Hegemony worlds, which would cut the FC in two.
Ulric was playing the game hard on all fronts. He would willingly give the Falcons and Vipers free rein over the LC part of the FC and into the FWL to keep them out of his hair because he knows they would get in over their heads. Same for the Bears, Cats, and Jaguars in the Combine.
He has the old Terran worlds, plus what his Wolves took initially in the invasion. That gives him a good base of support and a link to the Homeworlds. The other Clans will play the ilClan game until one of them figures out a way to unseat the Wolves.
Now the House Lords will be hard pressed to do much else. The Combine is going to be fighting for their lives. Theodore will use everything he can get and some to keep his realm alive. If he has peace with Hanse and the Suns, he can do a better job with fewer internal issues. IF not well, we will see the Black Dragons and others show up sooner.
Laio will be their usual asinine selves. They will play their games, and given how they don't know or understand the Clans, they will try the raid and such as per how things typically go. They aren't going to like the return on those actions. However, I don't see Ulric going full Roman on Laio.
ComStar, I don't see Ulric taking them in. He does not need them, and he doesn't trust them. He has Phelan, who has already told him about them, along with the reports from the Dragoons and Natasha's input. So disbanding them and putting actual engineers and techs who KNOW how things work etc...their place is his best choice. So I go back to my first statement. Those outside the old Hegemony or Clan-held worlds will likely join the existing Houses or what Rump organization forms. Waterly will not go quietly; while Focht might, the others won't. ComStar is done in this setting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/28/22 10:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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Vlad's rising may not happen; he would have to go through Phelan and Natasha since the Wolf-Falcon War won't happen, and he won't have his chance to be Khan. He could still try, but it would be going against honor and all that. Something he would not do. One thing is for sure old Katherine won't be getting a throne. LOL.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/28/22 11:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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I can see some of the clans taking offense to the CC. Their arrogance will attract some of the trueborns attention and they will show the CC to be respectful to the clans. Granted, it is possible some of the worlds the FC didn't have at that time were still in Liao hands that were part of the TH. I don't remember the map that well.
I can see the other clans besides Wolf pushing out as fast as they can, and getting into trouble, as their numbers will start showing quickly. There are just too many worlds with heavy garrisons with hordes of vehicles, that would bleed them dry. I would suspect Ulric will know this, as Phelan and even the Dragoons (Wolfnet) would relay that information. If he took Terra, he may well try the expansion route, but leave it up to the others to try and fail in this endeaver. Or have other clans that come in later, have to challenge for worlds, which happen to be these very ones.
I hadn't considered Ulric rejecting Comstar because of Phelan and the others opinions. So I will agree with that one. The other clans are still iffy. The clan techs should be able to make the HPG network work, but a few things need answers.
Is the HPG network patched up so much the clan techs need to rebuild them from the ground up?
How long would Comstar be able to keep up the rest of the network for the rest of the IS, as I don't see the houses trusting the clans to do anything but attack them.
The accusation of Ulric sacrificing the clans to Comstar for the truce is what allowed Vlad to rise, then the Falcon war did the rest, so I can agree with that outcome. Vlad would not have the chance to gain that much power.
Honestly, I think the Black Dragons would show up sooner then later. They wouldn't have much choice. They showed up for the founding of the FRR, so I would think they would have no choice but to do something if the clans pushed thru the Dieron district, and closer towards the OA.
The Vipers and Nova Cats are questionable. Depending on the time frame, they may not be activated until much later, if at all. Then again, more clans may be activated depending on how much resistance the IS was providing.
There is more in depth things that can change the entire outcome. First being, Victor being captured or killed on Trell 1. Hohiro on Edo. Phelan when they first encountered the clans. The suicide run on the Dire Wolf being changed a little, but that is later in the invasion. Just a few little things would have done much to change the entire story.
Even the clan bids for which corridor could have changed much.
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ghostrider
07/28/22 11:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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Imagine if the clans decided to just increase supplies or had the Vipers and Cats included in the first part of the invasion, so 6 clans instead of 4.
Would the Falcons and Jaguars taken the flanks like they did, with the other 2 clans between them and the Wolves/Bears?
Would they have wanted something with a little easier access to Terra?
Would they have increased the size of the invasion area, or left it as it was, and just had more troops waiting for the next assault?
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Karagin
07/29/22 12:22 AM
70.118.172.64
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I would see the remains of ComStar becoming part of each House's Military or Spy network, or Civilian side of things, depending on the House. MIIO would gain the HPGs and such in the FedSuns, LIC would get the ones in the LC, etc...for the other Houses. The ComGuard might fight these takeovers, others might not, and some might go rogue.
If the Clans have their own HPGs, and it seems that they do, can they make new ones? I mean, the SL came up with them, more or less, so why wouldn't the Clans be able to make new ones as needed? (just pointing out a massive flaw in a certain PLOT point of the canon, but moving back to our topic.)
The Clans would have new areas to focus on, fighting would not stop, and the idea that it stops above the truce line was foolish and, I think, hurt the game overall. This time flanking Clans would have targets to vent their wrath on, and Ulric would highly encourage it since it would mean they would be bloodied and busy dealing with those fronts. Meanwhile, he has the time to rebuild the Hegemony worlds. This cements the power base of Clan Wolf and then gives them the needed stronghold to engage against FWL, CapCon, Suns, and Combine as they want to, along with testing their fellow Clans in Trials and other such engagements.
Vlad and the other Crusaders would be a bit hard-pressed to push things since their argument of who did what is now mute; a Warden Khan took Terra. Their whole ideology is defeated. We would see a shift inside the Wolves to one of that venerated Ulric and those who got him to Terra.
I see the Falcons/Vipers fighting it over the LC and parts of the FWL and other local environs. Same for the Jaguars and Cats and Bears against the Combine and each other. This one would be the tricky one, though. The Jaguars have lost the most face (honor) in the invasion, and since they are not ilClan anymore or ever, they will be hell-bent on taking down the Combine for sure this time. I would say Luithen would be attacked again, and while the outcome might be the gutting of the Jaguars, it will be on their terms as set by the game's own rules for the Clans. Not flavor of the month, bad guys. We need to remove something or a group from the game because a couple of our writers and other PTB learned about new military doctrine at the time (not really new but was coming back into vouge).
The size of the invasion area would increase because there would be no truce line or other silliness. Ulric would need the Clans focused on the Houses and each other. Now comes the 64-thousand dollar question (or million, depending on the version you saw), what are the Home Clans going to do? Will the Hellions, come charging into the Inner Sphere? Will we see the Reaving happen?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/29/22 12:27 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Dragoons might get a pass if Ulric takes Terra, mainly because I think, Celcia (I can't recall her name, but I know it's close to that) Ward told him what she knew about the Orders given to Jamie, as did Natasha. And I believe another Wolf Khans also briefed Ulric. So the Dragoons might have been ignored on Outreach as long as they didn't attack any world held by Clan Wolf.
Some other units, like the Hounds, and Light Horse, might get a pass since they are seen as more honorable, but I believe the rest would be seen as bandits. Now with the change in fighting and the fact that the LC and Combine will need a lot of units to hold their worlds, many merc units will be flocking to those areas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/22 01:13 AM
45.51.181.83
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With the initial push, I don't know if the original corridor would be expanded with the addition of 2 more clans.
We are talking a race for Terra, not the conquest of the entire IS from the start of it.
After Terra is taken, then they would definitely expand.
But then this would also be dependent on some story line things not happening. The truce would not happen, as Comstar would not have had time to put up the bid. The clans would fight on Terra, not a proxy world. And with this, they would be more ready to fight a grueling campaign, unlike the canon story.
It might also be, that Ulric decides that at this point, taking Terra is more important that stopping the other clans. So the truce fight wouldn't happen.
Granted Comstar might realize this too late and bring out their warships and start hitting the clans warships. That would change the war some.
With the push past the FRR area, the clans might reinforce their warships, especially if they believe Comstar is untrustworthy, and they learn Comstar has warships.
It would also need to be asked if the clans had the old SL star maps, meaning they know what worlds are in the IS, so no hidden worlds could be used to spring an attack on them.
Bases like Camelot Command pose another issue. With a possible change up in clans and possible location changes, would the Falcons have taken the shipyard? Would another one, and who?
Given the canon story, they seemed to have forgotten about it.
Given the Light Horse was an SL unit, that poses an interesting problem. Would the clans invite them back into the fold? Or just destroy them for deserting the SLDF when they left? Would the ELH join them if offered?
The mercs pose a separate problem. Depending on how the war was going, would they stand and fight? Or run, hoping the clans are stopped. As the clans are likely to take bondsmen, mercs may well be executed when ever they could be.
I can see one outcome of this being a full break up of the houses, and having the clans start their own little civil war again, as they fight for Terra, basically destroying the agreement and just attacking anything that isn't their clan.
Then again, I can see they keeping their agreement with honor it was written in, and becoming a stable basis for a new (reborn) SL.
This also adds in questions about the periphery states.
Would they back the houses? Sit out and wait until the clans come after them? Launch attacks into the houses, hoping to grab some land to slow the clans down before they get into the periphery?
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Requiem
07/29/22 03:38 AM
1.147.82.21
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How is the study in etiquette and comprehension studies progressing?
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I would think that the FC might survive initially
Really? With the establishment of a Clan version of the “Republic of the Sphere” where every clan is attempting to create their own fiefdom both halves of the FC would end up being geographically separated from one another.
Thus in real terms both Victor and Katherine could in all likelihood end up in one realm or the other thus necessitation one to rule one half of the FC in order to combat the Clan menace from their side of the IS.
That is the FC would only exist in name alone …
Yes as Clans invaded the Terran System Walterly could have – in a deluded state of mind due to a breakdown – ordered the commencement of Operation Scorpion just before they fled to the FWL.
As for another Clan becoming il-Clan, cannot see this being anyone but he Wolves as the writing suggests TPTB had decided from day one they were their favourite Clan and as such it would be them! Can anyone say Nepotism!
Defiance would fall!
Counterattacks – with what? It all comes down to how many units remaing and how willing their leaders are at initiating a counter attack.
Second Invasion Wave – do you know how humiliating it would be for the home clans to remain at home then be granted safecon to go through the invasion corridor only to be dropped off at the end and then being told you can have these worlds if you can capture them?
Humiliated doesn’t begin to express the feelings these clans would have to gr through.
Scientists – are both failed warriors and freeborn – someone has to remain on the clan home worlds to keep the iron wombs producing new progeny as well as creating new DNA variants from those brave warriors during the first clan invasion …
So yes a great number will remain behind – and these most definitely will rebel against their warrior overlords.
As for the Dragoons – they are the new Wolverines … kill on sight!
If Ulric becomes the first il-Khan Ulric will never be allowed to challenge – Ulric would have to die a warriors death in battle first before a second could be chosen (politics – similar to Nicholas Kerensky ) – and in all likelihood it would be Phelan Nepotism once more?
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That gives him a good base of support and a link to the Homeworlds.
And no understanding of the concept tyranny of distance …
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the House Lords will be hard pressed to do much else.
Depends upon the military industrial capabilities / military units that survived as well as any R&D teams that survived to re-equip each house with Clan level technology to fight on with.
However there will always be problems for the IS as TPTB care more about their pet Clans than they do for the IS Houses.
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One thing is for sure old Katherine won't be getting a throne
I wouldn’t put a bet down on that – with the separation of FC into two once more both will need a ruler …..
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There are just too many worlds with heavy garrisons with hordes of vehicles
Problem is TPTB have never cared about vehicles in the Clans conquest of the IS – thus you may have hordes – yet at the end of the day it comes down to Mech Vs Mech.
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Imagine if the clans decided to just increase supplies
How can you tell when no one ever wrote about the definitive nature of Clan Supplies and replacement personnel?
As well as the IS were never allowed to attack these re-supply units.
I could see ComStar becoming a part of FWL …
Also those pesky 5 hidden world that made the WoB military are they still around and are they making a new military with the collaboration of all houses to take on all of the clans? So how big will the Wob military be if all the IS houses assisted them in creating them into a new Star League Army?
Even though a Wardon Clan won the Il-Clan position – the war goes on as fiefdoms need to be established – external IS Houses need to be squashed …. So life is good for the Clan Warrior as wars do not seem to ending any time soon …
Light Horse – see he Clans as the Nazi unit’s they are – war to the death!
Merc’s will do what they always do –
‘Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries’ by A.E. Housman
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth’s foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth’s foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay.
As for the Clans – just realise that it is the Chaos March on Steroids where anything goes, and alliances will form and be shattered as quickly as they are formed as everyone is out to kill everyone until attrition takes hold and no one has forces to continue the war – then and only then will peace commence.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
07/29/22 09:24 AM
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After Tia killed the Jag Khan, the different Clans were brought in, and Ulric was elected to lead the invasion. Now, are we going from that point forward or before that?
The Houses will either stand or fall. That is all they can do. Some might merge to stand against the Clans. The others will indeed collapse and likely be picked off by all parties.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/29/22 09:24 AM
70.118.172.64
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Do you have the ALT posted for us to see yet?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/29/22 09:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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Camelot Commad is a non-issue. The Falcons would be running for it. Snord might go for it. He and his group might be fighting to stay alive as the landscape is different at this point. Since you did point out that certain things will not have to happen.
Camelot Command was a wasted event that only helped the Snords. It did nothing significant since the FC NEVER USED IT for anything of note. Yes, they have SL maps, which would have rendered the whole Hidden World BS pointless, and even the Dragoons had better maps with correct information, but hey, TPBT forgot that little bit, as did all their fact check, eh Cray...yeah I am calling you and others out on that crap. A point has been stated for a while about them having better charts and such, but then they don't because it's convenient for the "story"...
What truce? There would be no truce after Terra falls. The only thing changes are the other Clans won't be able to attack Clan Wolf outright. Everything else not held by Clan Wolf is fair game. Yes, the fight would be on Terra, and depending on how things go, it will be either the Wolves vs. the ComGuard, which might be an interesting fight since the Wolves would be in their prime and the ComGuard would be on home ground. That is, if they even fight. At this point, we would have seen how much of the lies ComStar had been selling about what was working or not working in the Sol System, and their little fleet in orbit around Jupiter and such would be known about a lot sooner.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/22 12:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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The point that changes it all isn't set. The idea that Phelan is killed should show part of that.
The idea the FC could survive initially was to show that when the clans initially take Terra, they still had the area taken from the CC and FWL to remain in physical contact. So yet the time frame issues still seem to elude some.
What does need answers is if the clans could disrupt or even shut down the HPG network that wasn't under their physical control. They should have access to the original programs put in place by the SL that could do such things.
Again, assumption comes thru by the same person. This is not a discussion about what the story line has going. The fact the clans reach Terra in the first invasion should show this. It is a discussion that deals with non set alt concepts of what if.
Counter attacks with what? This is a question that shouldn't need to be answered, but will. ALL the houses will be in a life or death fight. With the clans spread out from the 'northern' border to Terra, not every military industry is located there, nor is ever last force known to the IS. There will be counterstrikes, which may also include removing the clans from Terra before they get set up. Then again, they may never remove them. Until there is no more dropships to move troops, there will always be some counter attacks. No thought put into responses again. If you can't bother reading everything and thinking before responses, don't bother with responses.
Funny. You contradicted this question later on in the post.
do you know how humiliating it would be for the home clans to remain at home then be granted safecon to go through the invasion corridor only to be dropped off at the end and then being told you can have these worlds if you can capture them?
Yeah. Using the established route from the home worlds to the IS would be totally embarrassing. Then being told that you have to fight for worlds in order to establish your clan there, like the Vipers and Cats had to do in the original story. Do you know what would be embarrassing? Having to sit at the home worlds while all the other clans are taking out those that caused the SL's downfall. Guess they need to build another route for them to get to the IS to fight. Or be wiped out as the clans taking the IS will eventually become far stronger then yours. SO yeah. Not much thought put into that response.
Why do you think Walterly would run to the FWL? If I recall right, she came from the DC area. WOB was the FWL favorite. It does have some logic to it, as they would be the biggest economic entity not currently under attack if the clans first take Terra. The CC would lack a lot of things. But if Walterly is going to run, the DC would be her first choice. And that would include taking the Comguard with her, so it would boost the DCMS with auxilary forces that includes warships. This is also if Comstar doesn't splinter from the decision.
Katherine not being a warrior, would be the worse person during this time. She would NOT have the advantage of dealing with Vlad in a non warfare way. It is very possible the Falcons would stop her from getting thru their area to even begin to travel to another clan.
And Victor would be in the LC area as that is where the fight will be even if the clans reach Terra. So unless Katherine is in the FS portion, she will not inherit a throne. This is probable even if Victor dies in combat.
Again, the lack of reading the books word for word shows up. They do discuss the issue of supplies in the canon books. This is why Ulric was telling the others involved in the invasion that they were short on supplies even before they left the home worlds. This very reason is why the Wolves started running ahead of the others. IT WAS WRITTEN.
Karagin. Pick a spot you think might be a good point to divert from, and we can go from there. Otherwise, it might get a bit confusing jumping between different views. Maybe even setting up some different threads to discuss the changes from each potential time line varience.
Edited by ghostrider (07/29/22 12:19 PM)
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Karagin
07/29/22 12:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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And here we are back to his ALT is better. Show us the ALT Requiem.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/22 09:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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You know that the canon storyline is following an outline to go from start to middle to end, like all stories are supposed to do according to language classes that deal with creative writing.
So the wolves were supposed to be the 'heroes' of the clans before the invasion was even written up. It isn't like the developers just threw something together and said let the dice decide what would happen.
There are some battles that would cause someone to question that thought.
This is someone that flunked my primary language classes. I hated english in school.
The IS was written to stop the initial clan invasion. This, along with things like the warships being useless for the most part was written that way. The bombing of Turtle Bay was written to cause hatred for the Jaguars, and the reason why they were targeted in the canon line. ALL part of their outline.
So if others want to join in and start some what if lines, plus chime in. We could do several threads diverting from canon with some specific points, or just some general concepts.
Examples like Phelan dying or escaping the initial contact with Vlad for instance. Same thing with Hohiro. Maybe the clans brought in more supplies, or even decided they had too many, and left more forces behind. More clans being used, or having those that lost continue to challenge with trials of refusal, or grievance. Maybe even those left behind taking the items left behind by the invading clans could be done.
The only thing is staying away from already made alts, unless others have read the material, so they can be confirmed or denied to following the thoughts.
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Karagin
07/29/22 10:20 PM
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Ghostrider, I will get back to you on things, I need to give things a good look over and figure out where I think things could diverge and still make sense. Might have a few ideas or so.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 12:21 AM
45.51.181.83
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Not a problem. I would prefer something that makes sense.
Even if it takes a few paragraphs or even responses to get to a point.
I was hoping to get some others on the site to chime in with ideas or points that could have changed the set up. Even if it was slightly before the clan invasion, such as showing Comstar was moving towards trying to take over the IS by force, before the clans showed up. We know they become political in IS power struggle with the 4th war fake raid and interdiction, then again before the 3039 war.
More possible scenarios could include someone in Comstar, such as a future WOB informant, giving out information about Comstar working with some new (old) force, tipping the clans ability to block information they were even there. Even starting a full fledged civil war within Comstar, without WOB showing up. Or even having WOB show up, but not go down the Jihad path. That doesn't mean they would be helping the IS with the clans.
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Requiem
07/30/22 05:04 AM
1.147.82.21
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What is required – A detailed time-line of the events that led up to, as well as the immediate subsequent events – Do you have this ALT created for us to see yet or are you expecting others to do it for you?
As stated from the beginning the clan invasion is very poorly written, hence, there are many stories that should have been included and yet were not, and what we are subjected to is an incoherent diatribe.
Camelot Command is one such story that was lost – as per my forum on the subject – the utilization of this space fortress was lost due to TPTB’s inability to understand or implement this facility into the wider war.
Depending on how things go ….
It could end up being every Clan Vs. every IS House and Com-Guard – with a massive number of battles conducted all over the world and in space …. It all comes down to how you want this to devolve into in your own Alt.
For example … Belters - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Belters how were they conquered by the Clans … and how are TPTB staying out of a second legal fight, this time with Amazon, whom (I believe) own The Expanse (TV Series)?
Counter attacks with what? – once again we have those who do not comprehend what is going on?
What units have survived to this period of time? Each ALT can provide a different assessment of what is remaining … so how many you have will not be the same I have.
As for the IS Houses they would have to act like Russians – fall back build new factories in Siberia for example (i.e. the Periphery) … then rebuild their army and re-engage.
At this sage I would also like to reiterate – WoB’s 5 hidden worlds as well as their advanced tech – where is at this point in time – are we going to introduce these? Or are we just going to ignore this altogether.
Again, assumption comes thru by the same person, due to the fact that others do not provide a comprehensive explanation as to their ALT.
Yeah. Using the established route from the home worlds to the IS (No, to the outskirts of Terra) would be totally embarrassing.
Waterly running to the FWL and not the DC? – how would the DC which is non secular and militant react to her arrival – badly would be an understatement. Whereas travelling to the FWL, and the real and fake Mariks they have the ability to be welcomed by the state and has the ability to rebuild, whereas this cannot be seen to exist if you travel to the DC (especially if they know that ComStar initially aided the Clans in their invasion – if they conducted recons upon captured worlds and were able to remove POWs with specific knowledge – or Clan personnel)
Katherine not being a warrior, would be the worse person during this time.
Sorry but this once more demonstrates a lack of thought.
She has how many generals to assist her in how to wage war including – Nondi Steiner, Kell etc just like how many civilian leaders throughout history.
She also understands administration and propaganda (just like her mother who would be alive at this stage and helping her as the assassination would not have occurred) – thus the ability to keep hope alive is incredibly important at this stage.
Just have a look at Churchill and how he kept the people together during the dark period of war when Germany took France – what was his military experience?
Then compare this to Victor and his “great” military experience during the initial stages of the war – incompetent does not begin to explain how useless he is, he has no understanding of economics or administration so how useless is he?
They do discuss the issue of supplies in the canon books …. Sorry but no they do not!
How were each Clan’s fleet organized – how many ships did each Clan Have – how many cargo dropships did they have - When did ships depart / arrive – when were the space stations established along the route to remove each sections coordinates from the navi computers and replace them with the new coordinates – how was this undertaken – what cargo did each of these fleet contain – how many sibko graduates did they contain – what tonnage of consumables did they have – how was these distributed amongst all the clan forces and the list of questions goes on and on … all of which are never answered!
Why because once you understand this then you can easily quantify that the Clan Invasion of IS was impossible due to the fact that the Clan Home Worlds could never supply the quantity available and in a timely manner to re-supply their invasion ….
So the statement “It was Written” is a complete fallacy.
So the Wolves were supposed to be the ‘heroes’ of the Clans – ever heard of the concept of establishing a surprise ending?
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The IS was written to stop the initial clan invasion. This, along with things like the warships being useless for the most part was written that way. The bombing of Turtle Bay was written to cause hatred for the Jaguars, and the reason why they were targeted in the canon line. ALL part of their outline.
And in so doing created a very poorly written invasion that destroyed any hope of manufacturing an epic in which there could have been a vast number of alternatives for the reader and gamer alike …
In all ALT the story can change to suit the gamers … and yet if some state their belief they become pariahs …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 11:01 AM
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I don't have an alt so much as what the group plays with each unit. There is no set environment, as each game is different from the others. As each campaign has a far different outcome, there is no set alt. With that said, I am not looking for someone to write one with this topic. I am curious on how different things could have happened, and the effects of it.
There is no push for an alt, as there is no one fix for the game.
I am not writing an alt. I do not expect anything except getting some other views of things with this.
Poorly written and not believable are not one and the same. The invasion does what it was meant to do. As we have yet to see the self proclaimed 'perfect, only viable alternative' to the canon story line, there is nothing to compare it to, besides each persons playing with their group. For that, there isn't a real need for a story line, except for maybe the gm. Ours sets up our missions and we go from there. As we don't talk to the house leaders, their names don't really matter. We either take a job or decline it.
Right to your alt for more Bovine Excrement? The writers did not understand that the FC could not hold Camelot Command in a story they wrote. A warship parked at the station is more then enough to make sure it would never be used by the IS, as wiping out all dropships and possibly jumpships that come in range. The FC could not continue to support it, and any fixes would give the Falcons a working station for little cost. Yeah. That is definitely excrement.
The lack of understanding that not every unit was sent to the clan front line shows up yet again. I know you continue to say they all should have been sent, given these responses. The loses to the IS forces is not total annihilation. There are a lot of units that were garrisoned on worlds all across the IS. Those on the TC border for instance. New ones are formed as well. I did not see a list of every unit the DC/FC had destroyed during the invasion.
So yeah. Your responses show, yet again, you don't understand the entire situation. This is not about making an alt. Get that thru your head. If you can't, stop posting here.
You mean Comstar's 5 hidden worlds? WOB did not exist as an entity at the beginning of the invasion. As Karagin pointed out, the information from Camelot Command would have shown those worlds, and that is IF they clans didn't already have them in their maps from the SL. They had full access to the HPG network, and could very well have seen what was, and wasn't showing on the maps thru Comstar.
Miss the part that the DC would be hurting badly from the invasion and 50 plus regiments along with warship support would change their views quickly? That the DC needed reinforcements desperately, and Comstar was the one to help get them reinforcements before the 3039 war? Comstar had inside information on where clan forces were and strengths? That Comstar had the tech to build warships as well as the resources to build new factories rather quickly? Yeah. Some logic is missing yet again.
Little fact that is overlooked. The initial invasion had Hanse running the FC, and Nondi being the one losing territory due to her lack of understanding them. Katherine is very much the wrong person to be in charge, and since Melissa and Hanse were alive, this point is moot. It is very possible she would not have a throne to seize. Depending on how things went, Tharkadd was a target much like Luthien was. The main thing is time. When would it happen?
And with that, Nondi only used the Steiner generals, ignoring the FS ones. With Hanse and then Victor, they would have used all the generals to battle the clans. Those very ones you are touting for Katherine. A little more thought would have shown this.
Go and reread the books word for word. Ulric DID indeed talk to the other clans telling them their supplies were too low. They ignored him. This very sort of thing is why I don't believe you read the books. That is in game story, not the GM version to let you know what is going on, which does say the clans did not bring the supplies needed to fight this war. It definitely showed up during Tukiyudd.
The list of cargo ships was never released.
The stations were being built during the trials of position for the invasion, with the last ones being built as the clans reached the periphery, which is where the clans stopped and set up the fight for the periphery worlds. It does state that they paused the movement to give the warriors time to rest a little from the trip from the homeworlds and let the stations get finished.
As for military forces they brought, there were source books written up that had the complete TO&E for the invading forces. This includes the warships they brought as well as the dropships and jumpships.
Surprise! The clans took Terra later on in the story line.
Now remove the concept of an alt from your responses, or stop posting on this thread. This is not about promoting something no one is going to see. You have to try and get threads shut down bringing up this because the threads that are dedicated to your alt don't get much traffic. I am tired of this shutting down threads.
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Karagin
07/30/22 06:13 PM
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Okay, here are two areas we could do a POD for this:
Phelan makes a break for it shortly after they are one of the Rahaslhauge worlds or runs to a ComStar HPG center, not realizing ComStar is working with the Clans. Still, the local Station Precentor sees the chance to score a coup with the inner circles of ComStar and Morgan Kell and hides Phelan, who is then returned to daddy. Things go from there. Details can be stored out.
The second part is there is no Tuykiad fight. Instead, the Clans just keep pushing forward, Ulric is ilClan since the new vote, the secondary Clans (Vipers and Cats and Horses and Sharks) are brought in, and the flanks expand as they push for their corridor and try to outflank each other to Terra, surprise the Wolves make it. The fighting is brutal as a combined ComStar/Fed-Com/FWL force tries to stop them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 06:55 PM
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The questions start with how Walterly deals with hiding Phelan from the clans. If she finds out, does she inform Ulric and return Phelan, or does she go with hiding him from the clans?
I would also think, that if she goes with hiding him, she would have ROM interrogate him for any information he might have on both the clans and the FC.
Returning him would score some points with the Clans, though Ulric would be embarrassed from Phelan getting away from him. Also, it would remove any sort of power Phelan might have gained at that point.
This also has some issues with the return of Natasha Kerensky, as his actions would cause a lot of problems with her return, or with her current status depending on how late in the invasion he skipped out.
Honestly, almost all scenarios would not have the Tukkyid fight. There would be no real reason for the clans to accept that challenge, as them making it to Terra would suggest there were almost no set backs at all.
One main event could change the entire history that needs to be addressed. Tyra and the suicide run. Depending on how things are going, would the circumstance of the encounter even happen? The attack on the capital may well have happened sooner, or the entire defense force for the FRR leadership might have been taken out, or diverted elsewhere.
Though if the clans did accept and win because they were more ready, that means they owned Terra, but not the systems between Tukkiyud and Terra. So getting there is still the issue. There would also be a major fight between the clans as each involved would have claimed to be the victors, and someone would have to come out on top to be the Ilclan.
The issue with Tyra's suicide run would determine if Ulric was even put into a position to be elected. Leo Showers may not have died, as the attack may not have happened.
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Requiem
07/30/22 07:38 PM
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Without a set environment how are you expected to compare apple time lines with other apple timelines – depending on remaining forces will determine how the IS will react to the Clan takeover of Terra.
Also depending whom is at the helm of each IS state will determine how they react to the takeover of Terra.
The invasion does what it was meant to do – in establishing a clan presence – yes it did – in creating a multitude of new gaming scenarios that would make the game more exhilarating to play as well as creating a realistic invasion / response – in this it failed bigtime!
Camelot Command – actually the FC could have held it, and if it looked like they couldn’t then why didn’t they just destroy the facility so no one could have it? Where is the realism?
First it is within a nebula – so how are your sensors operating?
Second it maintains a screen of attack drones
Third where are the IS pocket warship dropships as well as warships in later years
Fourth what happens when you place multiple aerospace fighter squadrons there all armed with ship killer nuke missiles?
Fifth placing nuclear mines equipped with ship detection equipment within the nebula is a real option – as even detonating close to a ship should kill it (despite what he sugar coated rules suggest).
Thus, ‘actually reaching’ Camelot once properly defended is a lot harder than it seems.
Also, as Camelot has a Cameron Star wouldn’t this necessitate that the clans take it intact as it is a cultural artefact with historical relevance – thus the use of naval weapons upon this facility has been banned?
Hence only ground forces are allowed.
There is an anti-mech trench built into the fortress with only narrow entry points this will cause problems
And if this failed the clans are left with a blockade strategy in a nebula … as they are not allowed to scratch the paintwork!
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I did not see a list of every unit the DC/FC had destroyed during the invasion.
So you did not read the after action reports on every world or even go the Invasion Corridor – Clan on Sarna and read this and then look at each unit’s page?
e.g. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Jade_Falcon
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the information from Camelot Command would have shown those worlds
Then can someone please explain why it was so hard to find these ‘newly-found’ worlds on the map post jihad or even during the Jihad as a copy of the computer core of Camelot should be somewhere within the FC – how about NAIS?
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the DC needed reinforcements desperately
And you expect everyone to believe they would accept ComGuard forces? They would be more likely to accept Fed Suns first! Again rebuild and re-arm their own units similar to Russia / China WW2.
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Comstar had inside information on where clan forces were and strengths? That Comstar had the tech to build warships as well
And what happens when someone asks how they came across this information / technology?
They will be asked to share this asap … so will they?
Also doesn’t every house have the resources to build new factories rather quickly?
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The initial invasion had Hanse running the FC, and Nondi being the one losing territory due to her lack of understanding them. Katherine is very much the wrong person to be in charge, and since Melissa and Hanse were alive, this point is moot
Morgan Hasek-Davion is Marshal of the Armies of the AFFC … Nondi is below him in rank.
Katherine is the same as Elizabeth during WW2 …. Suggest actually doing some research …
And yes Melissa and Hanse are still alive … the same as many Royal Families during WW2 etc … so?
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It is very possible she would not have a throne to seize. Depending on how things went
Again do some research first … just because the capitol is taken does not mean that they are no longer in charge – RFR for example or Norway’s monarch during ww2 – was in exile in England ….
And again Nondi was not in charge … also all forces are where they were assigned prior to the Invasion … as how many were actually moved into a better position or created a more defensible position with multiple units on a single world?
Once again, we have a useless story that does not comply with modern military logic!
Also how good is her father during the 4th Succession war – and then in the clan war? And again for Kurita? What we see in the Clan invasion is TPTB putting all the best generals in a box where they are not allowed to interfere with the Clan invasion – again we see a very poorly written storyline that does not allow any of the great generals to actually be themselves and fight the war in a manner that should have decimated the Clans invasion all because the TPTB were on the clans side and wanted to hobble the game in their favour!
So when touting for Katherine – actually do some research first then apply some logic as to what is going on!
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Ulric DID indeed talk to the other clans telling them their supplies were too low. They ignored him.
And how did the supply issue affect the invasion? Not at all – demonstrating a bias towards the Clans!
Also where are the IS forces attacking the Clans Supply convoys as well as their rear supply bases? – none!
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The list of cargo ships was never released.
And take a guess why?
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Surprise! The clans took Terra later on in the story line.
In the most ludicrous of storylines ever constructed that makes no sense whatso ever – and in which many do not ever want to fight in because it is just too badly written to even be considered to make any sense whatsoever!
It is just that badly written!
Question in making a new story is this not a new Alt? … yes it is.
Also my Alt universe is not the same as TPTB’s universe is … I have 13 to 14 major houses …. Also no Star League … no clans etc …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/22 09:52 PM
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This is not about sticking to the canon time line. This thread is not about your alt, or anyone elses. It is a 'what if' concept on how things could have turned out if certain things did/didn't happen.
The FC had the power to destroy Camelot Command? Last I knew, they lost it before they had the supplies and resources there to do more the superficial damage. They could not supply it, which would also mean if they tried to keep forces there, they would slowly starve to death and run out of munitions and such to defend with.
Defense drones? When did that become operational? I don't remember seeing much about them. I would guess after the Falcons started bringing it up to date.
As the game did not have pocket warships at that time, I guess they were still on the drawing board. Like 4 years into the future..
Gee. Place all your aerofighters to guard one facility and give the clans superiority over all worlds. Smart move. They would be more useful in taking down clan warships, dropships, fighters and such.
This thread is not about bringing in tech or changing the rules of the game. So if a nuke is said to tickle people, then it tickles people. Get that thru your skull as well.
Anti mech trenches don't work when you have ships that can hot drop units directly on the facility at any point. This isn't land based combat on this.
And the clans would destroy the base, rather then let the IS spoil it with their filth. Although, they would try to take it at first.
The issue here is time of discovery. We are discussing a point that the year of peace did not happen.
The list of all units destroyed does not include every unit the DC or FC had. None of the Davion Royal guards are there, nor is about 2/3rds the rest of the units they had. I did not see the Dragoons being destroyed, nor the Kell hounds or even most of the Sword of Light units. SO yeah. I guess no counter attacks would happen because everything died in the initial waves.
No one said the computer core from Camelot Command survived intact. The maps being nothing more then confirming what was already there, and for some worlds, they never disappeared from general knowledge. They were listed as glowing nuke dumps.
There is nothing stated that the Dragoons should have had a set of complete maps for the IS when they first came in. They WERE looking for old SL bases. Nothing in the TH would have been left out of those maps.
Comstar has helped the DC in recent history. No matter what the DCMS says, they would have taken the help if the coordinator said to. And before you try, they had to accept the Yakuza when Theodore brought them in.
When did the DC get plans for warships? Much later then Comstar had, as well as Comstar having the knowledge on how to build things like the engines and weapons. This is a war to the death. Given Waterly was raised in the DC, it is more likely she would have went there instead of the FWL.
It is simple about where they got the tech. They owned Terra. A world that no one knew how much information was lost like the rest of the IS. That meant ALL of the ship building in the SOL system. It was being rebuilt after the Amaris war, and no one even tried to attack the Sol system after Comstar got ahold of it.
Plus they showed everyone they had warships a little later in the story. Did the realms demand they give over that information at that point?
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ghostrider
07/30/22 10:10 PM
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This statement: And yes Melissa and Hanse are still alive … the same as many Royal Families during WW2 etc … so?
shows you are just trying to start arguments. Hanse and Melissa being alive means Katherine is not in any sort of position to even try and take the FC.
Wow. Hanse did so well in the 4h war, because he had most of the intel as well as feeding his enemy false information, as well as attacking an inferior foe. The lack of intel during the clan invasion as well as fighting units far superior to his own, as well as Nondi interfering with commands as she was in charge of the LC forces, as the agreement went to keep the LC people happy until Victor took the throne, was happening. Try to spin it any way you can, the fact remains that Nondi ran the LC defenses during the clan war.
Also, Comstar making sure intel didn't get out, helped keep the IS off balance.
The logic applied is correct. Katherine was not the person for the clan invasion and was not the leader for anything other then making the civil war happen. Remove the looking glasses from your eyes, and you might be able to see that yourself.
Let's see. Lack of supplies had the clans besides the Wolves slowing down their assault. The fact the clan tech was so dangerous covered for a lot of the missing supplies. Had it not been for the Diamond Sharks, there would have been even more issues.
The lack of listing every ship the clans had available is for a good reason. You still have not provided a list of ships Defiance has, and they control far less then the clans do. They were not needed to name every last thing in the game. The story has issues, but including everything would mean you would have an encyclopedia set to get anywhere. And this would change with every thing that happens. Ship A head back while ship B brings in more supplies.
Get it thru your head. This is not an alternate story line. This is a discussion dealing with a what if. There is NO effort to replace the canon line with anything here. Simple logic yet again, and still you don't seem to understand it.
Put up the alt, or shut up about it. The constant stream of canon being crap, yet you won't show anything to counter it. Just argue.
Just step away from this thread, as it is very obvious, you just want to try and promote something only one person has 'supposedly' seen, as well as argue.
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Karagin
07/31/22 12:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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Hey Requiem, how about you post your ALT so we can see it? Then we can all be on the same page as you. So please post it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/31/22 12:42 AM
70.118.172.64
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Lots of things there with ComStar, they know the Clans are a threat, but we also know Waterly is out of her league in trying to deal with them. She treats them as if they are another Inner Sphere House power base. Something that won't work long-term.
Focht has tried to tell her this, and with no way to have a proxy fight on another planet, he is going to be busy trying to shore up the defense of Terra, so having Phelan there with him or back with Morgan might get him to help in the form of some merc units or support from the Hounds or FedCom units.
Now, if we go with Leo Showers as still the ilKhan by vote and the Wolves take Terra, that could be a whole new thing. First, will he be willing to step down, or will we see a Trial of Position or something happen? Does this mean war between Wolves and Jaguars? Do we see a split between the Clans for good? The Warden Clans vs. the Crusaders?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/31/22 01:24 AM
1.147.82.21
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They could not supply it
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command
3050 - “Although Rhonda Snord is generally attributed with the rediscovery of Camelot Command, Franklin Sakamoto and the First Somerset Strikers had actually chanced across the base roughly one year earlier.”
Sept 3051 - Clan Jade Falcon task force - Since Rhonda Snord had called for, and won, a Trial of Possession for the base, it was assumed that their own honour code prevented the Clans from seizing it. It was eventually abandoned again after a few years due to its exposed position and the difficulty of bringing supplies that far behind enemy lines.
Look, I saw piggy flying ….
hydroponics and Aquaculture Tanks anyone?
Sorry but it is deranged to believe that the AFFC would just abandon the base when one nuke would have denied the facility to anyone one else!
This is a perfect example of how idiotic the storyline became – as what we have here is a Babylon 5 / Deep Space Nine for the Battletech game that could have been used for many new exciting scenarios – and yet was just abandoned because it appears that TPTB got bored with it, when in reality it is a very important forward base into the Falcon Territory and can be used to send fleets out to destroy Clan supply convoys … reconnaissance / tactical missions etc. – which again demonstrates that TPTB needed to actually do some research when designing the invasion …
Also how does the AFFC have problems with re-supplying the base – can anyone actually make any sense of this statement – and please don’t go back to the idea that there were not enough jump ships as that trope has been gone through again and again and has been shown time and again to be ludicrous within the invasion era.
What this also demonstrates is the point of hidden bases throughout the IS – even during the dark ages of technology all houses knew how to make bases on a moon
(refer Grey Death Legion – 2nd Book) thus the idea of not being able to manufacture / and resupply these hidden bases becomes a ludicrous concept!
Can you please conduct even the basic of research before making a statement such as –“ Defence drones? When did that become operational? I don't remember seeing much about them. I would guess after the Falcons started bringing it up to date.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech:_The_Animated_Series#Episode_9_-_Road_to_Camelot
“With dozens of the individually weak Mark 39 drones are already strafing the Clan ships, Adam's threat to throw hundreds more of the drones at them convinces the Clans to withdraw.”
i.e. the drones are active and in vast numbers!
Also in this same episode it was shown that Camelot has a self destruct device – so why wasn’t this used on the way out the door?
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As the game did not have pocket warships at that time
And when did the naval weapons become operational? The idea of non functional pocket warships 4 years into the invasion is beyond ludicrous – as shown many times they could have been active during the first year if TPTB did not create the most ludicrous of construction rules – thus demonstrating once again a proclivity for hobbling the IS Vs their Clans! (again in my strongly held opinion)
Place all your aerofighters to guard one facility
I find it fascinating how you can take what I wrote and turn it into the most absurd of statements. Who said anything about all as I stated multiple aerospace squadrons, or is this just comprehension of English?
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Anti mech trenches don't work when you have ships that can hot drop units directly on the facility at any point. This isn't land based combat on this.
Then can you please explain why the SLDF manufactured these mech trenches when they built Camelot Command?
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And the clans would destroy the base, rather then let the IS spoil it with their filth.
Survey shows! ….Bing Bong … zero … This is the Clans … Camelot Command is a holy temple to them, they would never ever destroy it, they would only attempt to capture it with the least amount of damage. If a Clansman did destroy it …. Multiple challenges in a circle of equals until that person is dead … DNA flushed from the program!
What we are discussing here is before the year of peace so who cares about it!
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The list of all units destroyed does not include every unit the DC or FC had.
You do realise that if you go through the Invasion site and have a printout of all FC / DC units you can actually work out their TO&E at any time?
How hard is it to use a fluro pen on a list of units? And make notes as you go …
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No one said the computer core from Camelot Command survived intact.
So Adam Steiner, Rhonda Snord and the AFFC were there for how long and no copy was made … even on the way out the door, can we get back to reality soon?
Quote:
There is nothing stated that the Dragoons should have had a set of complete maps for the IS when they first came in. They WERE looking for old SL bases. Nothing in the TH would have been left out of those maps.
Again Outreach …. As well as Snord’s hidden base beneath the Museum?
Can we, again, get back to reality soon?
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Comstar has helped the DC in recent history.
The bargain was for Star League era Mechs … having advanced weapons and electronics removed prior to delivery … how ticked off would you be?
Then there is the incident where a DC princess who wanted to join ComStar … how did that work out?
Kurita’s have long memories.
Waterly betrayed the IS when she ordered them to collude with the Clans … if this gets out she is dead!
Quote:
Plus they showed everyone they had warships a little later in the story. Did the realms demand they give over that information at that point?
Once again we see pitiful writing at is worst.
Quote:
Hanse and Melissa being alive means Katherine is not in any sort of position to even try and take the FC.
When does Hanse die of a stroke? June 52
Shortly there after she suggested giving the title to Victor
What happens if the Clans Take Terra by then or shortly after and the surrounding systems – Lyran space and Suns Space are no longer connected – Melissa and Katherine are in one half with Victor in the other … if Melissa in her grief offers Katherine the throne for one half of the FC to preserve the continuity of the government do you really believe she will say no?
Quote:
The lack of intel during the clan invasion as well as fighting units far superior to his own, as well as Nondi interfering with commands as she was in charge of the LC forces
As shown again in the 1st Somerset Strikers Anime – intel re the clans is readily available when a Clan soldier becomes POW and then becomes part of your Clan.
And again – Nondi is NOT in charge of the LC Forces at this stage!
And Again how many units got out of the war zone – so how much info got out with them?
And again Katherine is the correct person for the Clan War – being the reincarnation of Lucrezia Borgia – makes her eminently suitable to wage war on the Clans!
Time to take of those glasses that can only see her as a murderess!
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Supplies
Then why didn’t the forces of the IS take advantage of this so called lack of supples?
Quote:
You still have not provided a list of ships Defiance has
What? Sorry but you have lost me here … can you please explain?
And yet,
What if = ALT universe
Sorry but I am putting forward is a rational debate on the principal of what if, then what happens next ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 03:06 AM
45.51.181.83
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Oh look. The retconned cartoon found it before Snord, yet why wasn't that noted in the actual books? Oh yeah. It wasn't canon until much later. Funny how retcons seem to do that.
Is that what you called the truth? A piggy flying? As in the FC could not supply the base as stated?
Put up or shut up. Continuing to say someone else's story is poor, yet saying yours is so much better, yet only one person has ever seen it, is extremely poor. There is no proof of it, as only the writer says this.
As this is looking into changes in the story line, it is very possible the Falcons never find the base.
Sorry but it is deranged to believe that the AFFC would just abandon the base when one nuke would have denied the facility to anyone one else!
That is more proof you don't have a clue with things. This very statement was well used for the entire nuke fest you claimed should never have happened. The Falcons would destroy the base before they allowed the FC to defile it, by using it against the clans, especially them.
You have not understood any of the reasons before, why do we think you might now? Jumpships do NOT use uninhabited systems unless absolutely desperate. To set up routes behind enemy lines means doing just that. You don't comprehend this fact, so will constantly whine about it being the answer.
Back to the retcon of the cartoon? Sorry, but none of the books written at the time of the finding of Camelot Command had anything stating the base defenses were operational. In fact, the books that did cover it said just the opposite. Snord had to get a few turrets functioning.
Yet if Adam found it before and chased off the clans, it would have been noted when he lost it, and Snord found it. Incompetent Adam lost it... Imagine that.
This is also in the adventure pack made at the time, called Rhonda's Irregulars, where they state the poor nature of the asteroid. Nothing said about Adam then.
Why wasn't the self destruct button used when the SLDF left the IS in the first place? Because they didn't have one. Another retcon.
How many aerospace regiments are there in the FC? With your all or nothing posting of units in past threads, that is where your concepts of how the war goes shows thru.
Why don't you look up when the FC put naval grade weapons on the Overlord? That is when they started doing so.
The same reason why control centers on ships are still built in the open with glass windows around them. Because it was done in the old days, so therefore never changed.
300 plus regiments in the FC. less then 50 were taking out by the clans. So 250 plus regiments of mechs still exist without trying to rebuild those destroyed. Yeah. No such thing as reserve forces for a counter attack.
This is also assuming the FWL doesn't send any to assist in removing the clans from their borders.
Wow. The need to argue comes thru again. No one said the computer core survived, and you think that was after the FC was on the base? Maybe that was meant that the FC didn't download anything because the computer core was screwed up when they got there? Comprehension at zero to understand that?
If you would actually come back to reality, you may understand the game and what is being said. You suggest two worlds is the ONLY thing in the old TH worlds that may have had anything intact? That the over 600 worlds of the TH had nothing? That worlds the SL had secret bases on wouldn't have been included in their maps? They found more then a few bases that had been raided already. But yet you suggest only two were known.
And yet you also suggest the IS never sent out scouts to find any SLDF bases.
First off, how would the DC know the advanced electronics were removed? Second, any mechs would be welcomed, as they were lacking factories to produce enough to keep up with the FC. Trying to get some from the FWL/CC wouldn't work that well. They would be intercepted by the FC when found.
Melissa and Katherine are in one half with Victor in the other
Talk about poor writing and reality checks needed. Where was Victor during the war? He was running around the LC trying to stop the clans. So where did the false reality of Victor being in the FS portion come from? Not thinking again? Wishful thinking? Did you misplace where the clans were at compared to the realms?
Also, it needs to be pointed out that in the discussion here, the year of peace may not have happened, so there would not be a break in the fighting. So Victor would not have a reason to head back to the FS portion.
As the cartoon was retcon material, and only barely made partially canon, it was put in far later in the story then when the story was done. As not a single book I own had anything about the cartoon crap in it, all that excrement is retcon. So those of us that read the material when it first came out, didn't get the updated version when the money grab was being done. Had you actually read the books of that time, you would have known this.
The clans cut back on their plans. If the IS knew about the supply issues, they would have done more.
But again, you don't seem to understand things that the books spell out. Only the wolves kept up the pace, as they had the supplies.
You had this argument about why the developers didn't list all ships used for the 4th war and beyond, and you were told to show just one company's ships. You balked on that, as it would require far more time then it was worth to do so. Gee. Putting out a game like this, and not having every ship named isn't worth it. The story is supposed to be for some background information, not a full history of 1000 years of warfare.
And your lack of logic shows thru. What if is not the same as an alt. There is nothing here that will be done to try and get others to play anything in the thread.
And there is no rational debate coming from your posts. It is all my way is the only way. As with all posts you get involved with. So step away from this one. This is yet another attempt to keep this focused on a topic.
You suggest an alt for people, yet no one can read it. Where is the logic in this?
It shows a lie, as any sort of actual alt would prove that you have not followed your own statements. It shows in the responses here as they constantly change with new information. This is not Requiems alt argument thread.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 10:54 AM
45.51.181.83
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The cartoon was a complete mess that destroyed a lot of logic and facts in the game.
One such thing is when a city is inside a protective bubble, you do not fly a ship thru that bubble, and not kill people. Yet they did so more then once.
The SDS system was not allowed until the Jihad, yet the cartoon had it in the clan invasion, yet the FC did not institute such a system during the invasion. They would definitely have taken some copies of the drones with them, back to the FC government for research and manufacturing.
So the entire cartoon was for entertainment, not to further the actual storyline along. It should have stayed separate, but someone got the bright idea to incorporate it, to get those watching the cartoon involved in the game. And the rules and books of the time did NOT incorporate it.
This is a big flaw in the game. Probably one of the biggest garbage retcons of the game.
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Requiem
07/31/22 11:54 AM
1.147.82.21
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Anime – BattleTech
Problem – retcon – a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
Except for the end of the anime please describe all instances as to how was the anime retconned to demonstrate Camelot Command knowledge, the use of is security measures etc.?
Which are in and which are out?
Please also provide evidence as to how the FC were unable to garrison Camelot Command other than the one sentence that said they were unable to do so … as logic dictates that piggies are flying with regards to this statement.
Please note I do not have to prove anything to anyone when it comes to creating a new universe.
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The Falcons would destroy the base before they allowed the FC to defile it
What this suggests is that as the FC took possession of the facility first prior to the Falcons does this mean they, the Falcons, should have destroyed the station rather than taking ownership of the evacuated station as it was tainted by the FC’s ownership prior to them?
Sorry but you are misunderstanding the Clans desire to obtain anything Star League for their personal use, suggest re-reading as there is a lack in understanding.
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Jumpships do NOT use uninhabited systems unless absolutely desperate.
Can someone then explain …
The Exodus – from Terra initially and the SLDF
How explorer units were ever formed and used to find new planets
War of 3039
ComStar – Exploratory ships
The Clan invasion of the IS
Why anyone would venture into the Nebula to begin with when finding Camelot Command
Operation Serpent
Victor travelling to Huntress
How many exploration groups out and about 3050 onwards finding new planets
Sorry but this statement does no hold water, Jumpships will jump where ever programmed to go!
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none of the books written at the time of the finding of Camelot Command had anything stating the base defences were operational
Except for 1st Somerset Strikers (Sourcebook) – which is fully canonical …. And demonstrates he found it and used its defence weapons … what we see with the snord book is a lack of research …
The computer core never survived? …. How incompetent are the writers getting at this stage? Complete lack of logic!
So a SLDF Naval Facility doesn’t have maps for all hidden out posts – look piggy is flying again! Again this would be under encryption but it would be there!
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how would the DC know the advanced electronics were removed?
Just by turning on the mech and finding the same OS they are currently utilizing – then looking at descriptions of SLDF mechs held in the library and noticing a vast difference in output compared to wha was given.
So all of 10 seconds and anyone would realise this is not the same OS as the SLDF used.
Sorry but they are lemon mechs – no upgraded OS, no upgraded SLDF weapons packages … they were supplied duds compared to SLDF mechs.
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Where was Victor during the war? He was running around the LC trying to stop the clans.
Do I really have to spell this out? Logic dictates that …
If the clans are taking Terra and the surrounding systems where in all likelihood is Victor likely to be?
How about the Sarna March – those planets he was supposed to be duke to …
And where is the fall back position from there? The FS perhaps?
Did you misplace where the clans were when they are supposed to be capturing Terra?
Also if the fighting is getting this bad there is a reason to call Victor back to the FS portion – he is supposed to be next in line for the throne – and his father has seen his brother die in such a folly so wouldn’t he call him back to preserve the throne?
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As the cartoon was retcon material, and only barely made partially canon
Sorry this isn’t true – have a look at https://www.sarna.net/wiki/1st_Somerset_Strikers_(sourcebook)
“… the sourcebook is fully canonical.”
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If the IS knew about the supply issues
And we are expected to believe that none of the IS security units were able to recognise this?
Also gun footage should show an above average use of energy weapons compared to those with consumables … so again no one recognised this in the after battle report?
Sorry but one again this does not hold water!
My argument re ships – do you know which forum this is supposedly in or is this just make believe?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 05:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is no need to show anything about the FC not being able to supply Camelot Command. Those that created the game said they could not, so that is it. To demand more, means you need to look it up yourself. Oh wait. That means reading what is printed, and not put in your own views of what happened.
And yet, the continued shoving the ALT that no one has seen, down everyone's throat despite being told to leave it out of threads shows you are trying to prove something. This is NOT your alt thread promotion. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Leave it to the area you posted it to. Otherwise, leave it out of the threads.
There is having something of the old SL, then there is something dangerous in the hands of those they consider beneath them. This is about pondering how things would be different if something other then the canon story happened. It is very possible that the Falcons would not have been the ones to respond.
Can you explain how exploration is done? An entity has some jumpships they are willing to risk making jumps into uninhabited systems. They know when and where this will happen. They have multiple ships that can be sent out to fix them if there is something that can be fixed. They do not have a schedule to bring supplies to someplace.
Going to a system that has hostile forces in and around the system makes this even more of a problem. So losing the ship is even more likely in that case. Even with the increased building of ships, the war raging suggests that risking ships to supply a base several jumps into enemy territory is not going to happen.
The crap cartoon is something put in much later. So all the books written when Snord found the station had NOTHING about some hero show suggesting it was found before then. The actual time the books were written, were before the cartoon came out. All of that says absolutely nothing about Adam. So your suggestion about long time player shows up as a false statement. You started after the cartoon came out. Otherwise, you would have known the cartoon was not canon at that time.
The cartoon demonstrates a money grab. It negates the already canon books to retcon things in that were against the rules of the time, and weren't change until years afterwards. Several rules books came out and still did not have those rules to deal with the retcon. Imagine that. It wasn't canon for a long while. And even now, it is not entirely canon.
Incompetent writers? Sounds like someone that refuses to release information they claim is to give others something other then canon story line. As the original suggestion says, it is possible the core did not survive. All the ways to change a story and some simple things seem to be left out when responding. Like a possible asteroid collision? The last people alive wiped the information from the system? Full destruction of the memory core and all back ups?
The fact the whole base should have been destroyed when the SLDF left is over looked as well.
What library? You believe that Comstar would not wipe any memory systems in the mechs before they gave them to the DC? And you suggest your vision is logical? It stated in the books they went out of their way to wipe the memory of the units, as it would be necessary as the battle computer would have targeting data for the upgraded weapons they no longer have. And Comstar was the only one that could open and work on the mechs, per their contract.
Logic dictates you don't know much about the game, if you think Victor would be in the FS portion when the clans take Terra. He would basically be trapped in the LC portion, as he would be fighting the clans the entire time. You suggest no one knows the characters of the game, yet this shows you don't know Victor. Unless dead, he would be fighting the clans. which would mean from the top of the IS to Terra. Only when they invaded Terra, would they be on the FS border. And Victor would do more damage hitting the flanks, preventing more supplies then sitting in the FS. So before you throw out not understanding characters, learn them yourself first.
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Karagin
07/31/22 05:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am for leaving the cartoon out of this; it was a disaster that should have been left as a one-off thing like the comic books were. All versions of the comics. Exception being SPIDER AND THE WOLF.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 07:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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So the retcon of Adam nullifies everything that happened in the clan invasion on forward until the Jihad.
There is no Nicoli Malthus listed in the Jade Falcon source book, and we know the rules didn't deal with SDS systems until the invasion of Terra by the mercs. I did not see anything about Enhanced Imagining in the BMR, and with the cartoon doing things like exploding Wolfhounds, and destroying domes over cities in a void, nothing can be trusted.
**** retcons strike again.
This also means the Strikers are not canon as they violate the rules both past and future. As the BS of not having clan tech shows up as false.
But for this thread, the cartoon will be ignored as crap.
And so it is clear, the Requiem ALT has no place in this thread. I am not going to have yet another thread shut down due to that bs.
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Requiem
07/31/22 08:24 PM
1.147.82.21
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Quote:
There is no need to show anything about the FC not being able to supply Camelot Command.
Isn’t this supposed to be a “what if” forum that does not comply with canon on certain views?
So what if the FC was able to supply Camelot Command once they were informed of its location by Adam Steiner – they then had years before Snord arrived to find a fully functioning FC Naval base and not the empty derelict as purported …. Doesn’t the establishment of Camelot Command open the game to far more exiting game setings. I am under the belief it will, and wouldn’t its removal from the game detract from the game?
Thus if you had the opportunity to put it back in wouldn’t you do so?
You do not have to be a slave to canon – you can create your own history just as this “what if” Forum is suggesting – The Clans Take Terra in the First Invasion, what’s next?
Quote:
shoving the ALT that no one has seen, down everyone's throat
Whom is bringing this up? Sorry but it is not me – I have stated categorically that I will not be positing this as I have decided to keep it private … it is a part of me and I do not feel I have to share with the entire world at this stage.
Quote:
Can you explain how exploration is done?
You do realize that the chance of a miss jump is the same as if you are on commercial lanes within the IS? So the risk of loosing a jumpship exploring the unknown is the same as jumping cargo from one world to the next. So the risk is pointless to consider!
You should also realise that even with exploration there is a time table – if they are going o be out there for long periods of time resupply ships are dispatched to meet them at a certain point at a certain time.
As for going to a system that has hostile forces around the system – how are they ever going to know this your forces are how may light years distant from them in an unknown system that has been converted into a forward strike base from which you can strike at multiple enemy systems – this is a very logical military manoeuvrer – so it is most definitely going to happen – any resupply is also through unknown systems – hence no risk whatsoever unless by a freak accident your shp and theirs materialize at the same point at the same time and the probability of this is so astronomically low as it should never occur!
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The crap cartoon - the cartoon was not canon at that time.
The problem is TPTB went back and made a source book for the cartoon – THAT IS CANON! So imagine that the cartoon may not be entirely canon but the sourcebook is.
Quote:
Incompetent writers?
Since when has everyone been stripped of their freedoms to communicate – what they believe in?
If the core programming was stripped then how did they get life support back on line – how did they get the lights back on – how did Adam get he security system back on line?
Quote:
What library?
Any DCMS Military University Library – or don’t they even exist anymore?
Wouldn’t any miliary library have descriptions / video footage etc as to SLDF Mechs in battle and otherwise?
So you take one look and you will know that it is not SLDF – it is a more recent OS.
How hard is it to look at Word Office and know which is older to that of the newer program?
The agreement was Rasalhauge for SLDF Mechs – ComStar went back on the deal and only provided lemons … compared to true SLDF era Mechs.
Quote:
He would basically be trapped in the LC portion
Isn’t this forum about what happens if the Clans take Terra in the First Invasion?
That said, get a map and look at where Terra and the Sarna March are located – then look and see where your next move is if the Clans are taking Skye and DC worlds on the opposite side.
Your only real retreat is that into the FS – probably the Draconis March – as Victor’s father in all reality will be calling for him to return back to New Avalon at this sage.
Also at this stage Victor is a sub-par officer so in all likelihood he should be dead (if I had my wish) if he hasn’t killed off his entire unit to keep him alive.
Quote:
And Victor would do more damage hitting the flanks
Since when has TPTB allowed any unit to hit the flanks? They never even allowed the IS to strike at Clan resupply cargo fleets even when they should be within the invasion corridor … also never allowed to attack garrisons on captured worlds ….. so understanding characters is pretty much moot when certain tactics a normal military use are never allowed.
There is also one more point that must be raised as to how the Clans can acquire Terra.
Where did they get the extra troops to pull this off. As when you look at each Clan’s Invasion TO&E and you use a simple excel sheet it is obvious that no clan has the forces necessary to make it all the way and garrison every world with even a Trinary of Mechs – they do not have the forces to pull it off!
Quote:
I am for leaving the cartoon out of this **** retcons strike again
Even when TPB have made them Canon – as per the sourcebook for the cartoon?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 09:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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Love the placement of words to make it sound like something that wasn't said.
But for this thread, the cartoon will be ignored as crap.
**** retcons strike again.
This is your quoting those two sentences: I am for leaving the cartoon out of this **** retcons strike again
Falsifying what was said. This is what is expected anymore from your responses.
Guess reading isn't a strong point for you. There is no alt being formed here. It is seeing what might have been with a few changes. There is nothing here that will become a basis for a campaign. With the responses constantly showing you are not reading what is there, but putting in your own words, this isn't much of a surprise anymore.
Put up or shut up. Get out of this discussion as you are here only to start arguments. Make your own thread. This way, people can just ignore it like the others.
You continually miss facts about a lot of things.
A jumpship that has a malfunction with a jump drive that leaves them stranded in an uninhabited system does NOT suffer the same fate as one that has the same issue in a system that is used. It takes time to repair it, but they are not potentially lost forever. They can get supplies ordered and brought to them in an inhabited system. Uninhabited may well not have anyone go thru there for decades. So it is not the same thing. Anyone with any sort of logical mind would see this, and understand it.
Yeah, TPTB destroyed their credibility by removing all books written between the time of the actual invasion in real time, when they jumped the story into the jihad era with things that did not happen until the retcon. Things that did not follow their own rules. So yeah. Ignoring that crap for this discussion is a good thing.
Where did it say that the mech Comstar sold the DC were SL equipped models? They were getting old mechs that were refurbished, It did not say they were going to be advanced tech.
So supposition being shoved into that statement to try and argue a point.
It is supposed to be what if, but someone basically said there is no way Victor would be in the LC during the clans advance on Terra. Logic says he would be. Given Hanse died before this would happen, there is no way he would be demanding Victor return to the FS. And with all that territory between Terra and the western border of the LC, why would he have to run to the FS? Oh yeah. Logic says the LC is just that narrow sliver near Terra. The fact that Tharkad and even Defiance needs several jumps from Terra means nothing. Taking Terra means everything on all sides were gone according to what you make it sound like.
Also, the Draconis March is not a good place to retreat to, if things are that bad. It is on the DC border after all. So fighting would probably be happening there as well.
Your view of Victor is well known. Yet only you have been saying he was a horrible leader. So why does this seem like pushing a narrative of something no one wants to hear about anymore? Put up or shut up. There is no other thing to do, as the lie of showing a different view is not happening. There is no where to view this, and with the never will, the lie needs to end.
Now, once again, leave this thread. All input you have done has been insults with things that were said are not logical to most. Only one person seems to think they are.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 09:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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Now if we can avoid more crap, what time would Phelan make his escape in the first point of departure?
This is very important as more then a few things, like him taking a world without firing a shot would change the entire history.
Maybe he didn't get captured in the first place. Having Phelan tell his father about the new units, as well as the Archon and Prince, would change how they responded to the situation, verse the gun footage. This information would definitely make it to a mass of mercs, including the Dragoons. Just asking the main mercs would get the intel moving around. As the FRR dismissed most of the reports on their borders, I can see the information being ignored, or stored, possibly destroyed. Once the DC and FC got some strikes, this would help show them that it was not pirates. The information of ranges would show it was beyond SL tech.
Even having gone part way into the FRR before escaping works here as well. If he could get word to Tyra, she may not have done the suicide run.
The intel they got from Phelan during interrogation of him would not be available to the clans either.
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Karagin
07/31/22 11:05 PM
70.118.172.64
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That could be, and if he escapes with actual proof of the tech or something like a mech, crazy but it could happen. That coudl be a big boost to changing HOW the Fed-Com fights.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 11:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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I would think that removing the stupid concept of clantech being too expensive to make would probably be in any new path. To suggest that they would not use something a little more expensive to level the playing field is a bit much.
As more then a few mercs and even house units were salvaging clan equipment, the idea to build parts to maintain them isn't that far out. The costs of making SL tech was a jump from normal equipment, which means the jump to clan tech wouldn't be that far out.
The question is how hard would the clans look for him, once he escaped? Depending on the time line, not much, to kill on sight. But even then, would the normal warriors bother with a run away bondsman?
The escape itself could set off the clans against Comstar, even if Phelan didn't go to them, and just hid. The concept that Comstar was playing the clans for fools could well come up with this.
As for how close Phelan got with Ulric may well cause such a loss of face, that Ulric is removed from Wolf clan leadership, removing him from ever being the Ilkhan. Then again, it could expose Comstar and vault him to become Ilkhan even without Leo Showers death. The idea that Walterly was going to try to use them against the houses to bleed everyone dry could be exposed.
And what would happen when the mechs Comstar sold the DC are used in battle against the clans? No one in the IS was building them at the time. It could be used to accuse Comstar of arming the IS against the clans.
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Karagin
08/01/22 01:05 AM
70.118.172.64
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If the invasion pushes forward with things leading to the Wolves taking Terra in during the Invasion, I could see Combine going full crash course on copying all the Clan tech they can, as well some new stuff like the C3 systems and the MRMs. Same for whatever remains of the Fed-Com. They had NAIS, so it would be easier for them to get stuff rolling. The cost would go down over time so that by say 3055, which would be the likely date we would see the Wolves on Terra or close to getting there. Some of the front-line Fed-Com units would have prototype IS copies of Clantech.
Now, if we keep the Dragoons helping the Inner Sphere, which sure why not, then that could speed things up a bit more, but not by much.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/01/22 07:04 AM
1.147.88.67
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Guess comprehension is not a strong point, there is an alt being formed here. It is seeing that with a few changes there is a basis for a new campaign … maybe not by me or you, but there are others on the forum who may take this and run with it. Hus it most definitively becomes an Alt.
What is the first rule of going on an extended campaign? Always, always provide someone with your itinerary, schedule for when and where you will require resupply.
With any HR managers risk minimisation strategy any professional exploratory unit will establish an itinerary and schedule – thus if they do not arrive on time the second ship can work backwards in an attempt to find the lost sheep. They are only potentially lost, therefore, for a short period of time.
Anyone with any sort of logical mind would see this and understand it.
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Where did it say that the mech Comstar sold the DC were SL equipped models?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_ROSEBUD
Upon further investigation it is found that … ComStar provided the Combine such equipment as the Thorn, Sentinel, Crab, Kintaro & the Crocket …. Some of which were still equipped with Star League era tech. (Courtesy of Precentor Dieron Sharilar Mori)
Thus it is clear that the Combine did receive refurbished technology mechs stripped of their Star League technological advantage (for the most part) – and replaced with compatible technology for their time.
So this “argued point” clearly demonstrates that I am correct – or are you going to “argue the point” once more?
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Given Hanse died before this would happen
As requested above … a timeline of events – how were we to know that you had spread out the invasion to include the death of Hanse?
To enable everyone to be on the same page can I request that you complete a timeline of events so that we are all on the same page?
So how was anyone to know this? As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more.
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the Draconis March is not a good place to retreat to, if things are that bad. It is on the DC border after all. So fighting would probably be happening there as well.
First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement.
And Second, you do realize the width and depth of the Draconis March thus making it an adequate route to retreat into
Or third, can you create a map for us so that we understand where you believe the war’s border is at this stage as without this we are all lost as to where you believe the Clans have progressed to ….
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Yet only you have been saying he was a horrible leader.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor_Steiner_Davion
Yes do please use his bio to prove what a wonderful leader he was within the early days of the war …
3049 - Upon graduation appointed to 12th Donegal Guards RCT – Rank Kommandant (Major) and provided command of the 2nd Battalion ….. Really?
Trel I – forced to retreat and only the intervention of another unit allowed him to escape – ordered off planet.
Sudeten – 10th Lyran Guards – provided a battalion again – and it was his plan to assault Twycross
However I would like to point out at this stage as he is attached to the company of Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek-Davion – there is no way in hell he would ever be allowed to see combat again – he would remain here for the duration of the war to keep heir apparent safe from combat.
Twycross – FC forces scattered to hell and only good luck within the gash with Kai Allard-Liao did they win – so better luck than good tactical acumen.
Outreach – goaded into fighting Hohiro by Sun-Tzu … demonstrating immaturity of a Major of the AFFC and the future heir of the FC.
Alyina – allowed himself to be ambushed and once again only at the seeming sacrifice of Kai was he allowed withdraw once again.
Down to just 13 operational mechs indicates just what an amazing leader Victor is at this stage ….
Rotated to Port Moseby for R&R
Hohiro Kurita trapped on Teniete – so at the urging of Omika he set out to rescue him … which required Hohiro to actually save Victor for them to escape ….
So yes Victor had a great war (heavy on the sarcasm) of being constantly saved by other people to keep him alive … and you expect me to believe this is a great officer?
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what time would Phelan make his escape
So let me get this straight 3049 Phelan escaped capture on the Rock in the Oberon Confederation – did he escape within Kell Hounds Drop Ships and JumpShips or was he forced to commander Clan Wolf ships?
As the former would suggest he made a run for the IS in 3049 while that latter is dependent upon when the next Clan ship arrives on the Rock – which could be awhile.
Without Phelan being within the Wolves the entre Clan Wolf invasion is turned on its head – as Ulric would also die on the bridge when rammed by an aerospace fighter – no Phelan to rescue him …
Thus who is the new il-Khan? And how does their policies affect the war?
Changing Phelan’s history has the potential to change everything within the Clan Invasion …
So when do you believe IS weapon parity with the Clans weapons should occur?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/22 11:50 AM
45.51.181.83
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Wow. Nothing in the wiki entry says the units were to be equipped with SL weapons.
Unknown to virtually anyone, Precentor Dieron Sharilar Mori, secretly a Combine intelligence agent, arranged for a number of these 'Mechs to retain their advanced equipment.
The only SL tech that had to be there would be Endosteel and Ferrous fiber armor. And even the armor is not necessary.
So where in this did it say they were supposed to be equipped with SL weapons?
So this “argued point” clearly demonstrates that I am correct. The original statement was dealing with the mech deal, and you claimed it was supposed to come with advanced weapons. The deal did not say they would have advanced weapons. So correct? Not even close.
What part of getting the basics of things did you not understand? There is no set time line for anything. If someone uses any of this for their game, great. Getting some ideas out there is the point. There is nothing set that they have to even use any of it, nor is it saying there is a complete set up.
As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more.
As your what assumes he is alive?
First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement. This is pure assumption on your part. The fact that the clans were at the point where the DC/FC come to Terra is the point. The clans would definitely have some units hitting worlds around Terra, to avoid them from attacking the clans as they hit Terra. And even afterwards, they would do so as well. Trying to get there would be a problem as well, since you have to go thru where he clans were at in order to get there. The Capellan and what would become the Chaos March would be the safest way, IF he did return to the FS portion. Consult the maps to confirm the location of said Marches.
So Victor was horrible, not the fact the clans were that good with great equipment. I see. Explains the faulty logic put forth in most things here. The writing to make the threat seem real doesn't factor in to this. The fact that the clans were able to use half the forces of the defenders and still win isn't the issue. The Warhawk could reasonably take down most assault mechs before they could get into firing range isn't the issue. The clans used that range and better damaging weapons to that effect. Some ambushes did happen, but not effective enough to do more then armor damage on the clan omnis. More logic failure figuring this out?
Again, assumptions causing issues. There has not been a set time for Phelan to escape. Suggestions are put up to see what makes the most likely scenario. So take your assumptions and leave the conversation. This is supposed to be putting up possibilities, yet we are getting the only way it can happen from one person.
As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more. This statement has already shown there is no discussion, just what ever you want. This is not about your take.
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Karagin
08/01/22 01:05 PM
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Why are we still dealing with Requiem's lack of understanding of the basics of the game setting and his constant wanting to put his ALT take as fact?
Even with SL tech, they aren't going to be close to having it on every mech, even by 3050, because there is NO rush or demand. Things are not pressing for the Combine to refit everything with SL tech. Now, come the invasion by the Clans, yes, that would be a BIG reason to start setting up new production lines for them, the Fed-Com, and others. But before that, no.
Again Requiem, either put your ALT up a new topic for all of us to read OR stop trying to shoehorn it into every topic. This one is not about your version. So if you want us to talk about your's then share it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/01/22 08:46 PM
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The only SL tech that had to be there would be Endosteel and Ferrous fiber armour.
You are speculating again!
So how about actually reading the page first …. As it included ….
“During this conflict, Waterly once again met with the Kanrei on Dieron. Waterly was infuriated that the Combine had retained twenty worlds from the old Rasalhague District, reorganizing them into the Alshain Military District. Theodore rebutted that the equipment House Kurita had received had been stripped of their advanced equipment”
So the deal inferred Star Leage era “advanced equipment” and when ComStar shafted the Combine on the deal the Combine Shafted ComStar by retaining 20 worlds that should have been provided to the FRR.
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As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more.
The point is that without the construction of a timeline of events no one knows what is in the others – thus when I make an assumption you are automatically my error for crime of not knowing what your assumptions are …. And not providing me with the benefit of the doubt.
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This is pure assumption on your part.
English comprehension and syntax - How can an enquiry upon the author become an assumption by the reader?
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since you have to go thru where the clans were at in order to get there.
As evidenced in utilizing hidden systems as staging bases during war – War of 3039 - this statement is inaccurate – you can bypass worlds to reach the main target – an extension of MacArthur’s Island hopping campaign WW2.
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what would become the Chaos March
The Sarna March, which adjoins the Draconis March …. And which Victor is Duke of … even though he has yet to establish a capitol for his new March …. Which should then become the capitol for the entire FC ….
Incompetence upon Incompetence ….
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So Victor was horrible, not the fact the clans were that good with great equipment.
Thus we are making excuses for Victor’s incompetence as a military commander?
Lets blame everything except the commander – Sorry, but it does not work that way, when you are in command you command that also means that you have to accept all the blame when things go pear shaped.
How many times has Victor engaged the Clans – thus he should know their heat sinks, increased speed, increased ranges etc – if he cannot factor these into his calculations when strategizing just proves the point … he is incompetent!
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There has not been a set time for Phelan to escape.
And I put up two likely assumptions and are criticized for it?
Also we are both assuming that he is alive – so how can this be arguing semantics?
How can arguing he escaped with the rest of the Hounds or captured a clan ship be just about my take?
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even by 3050, because there is NO rush or demand.
You do not know when Hanse, the fox, will start a new war.
Even Takashi stated that you have fight at your best with hanse or he will rip your throat out.
Thus gaining and maintaining a technological advantage may be the only way to combat the FC’s numerical superiority – so even by 3050, because there is NO rush or demand – is quite a ludicrous statement.
The FC’s numerical superiority IS THE pressing reason for the Combine to refit everything with SL tech asap!
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stop trying to shoehorn it into every topic.
Question – I have stated many times that my new Alt. does not have any BattleTech people or Houses or Situations – so can you explain how I am shoehorning into every topic when what we are discussing has no basis whatsoever on my – and let me repeat this mine and mine alone – new Alt.
So I’m not talking about my Alt therefore I do not have to share it!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/22 10:04 PM
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So the written deal did not meet was was inferred? Wow! Is that why they say get it in writing. And with that, I did not see the DC back out of the deal.
So no. The deal did not include SL weapon systems. The statement that it had been part of the deal is false.
It does suggest Hanse dies when he did in canon. And since you don't seem to comprehend, this thread is not a fully made what if. It is just starting a discussion on things. There is NO statement it was even close to finished, unlike someone else's concept. The statement in yours is very much trying to shove your alt into here. Get a clue. We do not want anything to do with your alt, so take it and leave the conversation. You have been told this more then a few times.
Your shoving the false statement in to try and make yet another false statement sound truthful.
First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement.
English comprehension and syntax - How can an enquiry upon the author become an assumption by the reader?
No where did it say the DC and FS were at war, yet you assumed it was. Just because Victor fighting the clans in the LC, you assumed, falsely, that he HAD to jump to the Draconis March when the clans reached Terra. This is yet another attempt to shove your alt views into this conversation.
Pure logic with maps. The clans were coming down from the north side of the IS. Given Victor was on the west side of the map the entire time, why would he jump to the east side at this point? Other then trying to shove Katherine into ruling the LC?
The clans reaching Terra would mean fighting around Terra would be happening, so again, why would he be there? Morgan Hasek, and if, that is a big IF, Hanse was alive, they are more then capable of dealing with the FS side.
As Victor is ruler of the LC as well as the FS, he would be duty bound to be where the thickest fighting is at.
So again, your logic is faulty to the core.
And the syntax was not an inquiry, but a statement of your assumption.
Who said anything about hidden bases? Yet another shoving an unwanted alt concept into something that has NOTHING TO DO with it. Take it and get out.
Again, your inability to understand things shows thru. We did NOT say this was a completed thought. It was to bounce around some ideas on what might have happened. Yet you seem to think this is the final print for something that it is NOT going to become.
how were we to know that you had spread out the invasion to include the death of Hanse?
By actually comprehending this is simply a start of getting things together.
As mine assumes he is alive
Wow. It even says assumes. What does that make it? An assumption based on what? It was suggested before hand that Hanses death does occur. Yet you assume to put in your view then suggest it is not wrong? Again, I will say this. LEAVE THE CONVERSATION.
Wow. Instead of assuming things, why not wait until facts are put in? Oh yeah. Because then you can't start arguments to get the thread shut down. Or shove unwanted facts from the supposedly done thing that no one will ever see.
The crap that continues to show up is directly from another made up comparison of the game. It is the same crap that was shoved down our throats time and time again.
A new twist on an old concept doesn't mean it is new. The same points come up again and again with the same bias.
LEAVE THE CONVERSATION!
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Requiem
08/02/22 12:14 AM
1.147.88.67
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So the written deal did not meet was inferred?
DC believed it did! This is why they kept 20 worlds.
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It does suggest Hanse dies when he did in canon.
Yes this is true, HOWEVER, as no time line was ever supplied we the readers did know if the Clans had taken Terra pre, post or during Hanse’s heat attack.
Thus the belligerence as to the fact is unwarranted as no statement was made as to the timeline – no know can infer what was never provided.
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Nowhere did it say the DC and FS were at war, yet you assumed it was.
Quote from my reply dated 08/01/22 07:04AM
The statement I provided was, “First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement.”
So how do you go from “are you (ghostrider) assuming … with this statement” to get (me, Requiem) assumed it? …. English comprehension and syntax.
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you assumed, falsely, that he HAD to jump to the Draconis March when the clans reached Terra.
I assumed that the Clans had taken Terra and were in the process of taking the surrounding systems for each clans individual fiefdoms. I then assumed that it would be in Victor’s best interest at this stage to fall back to the most secure position he could find – the Draconis March – there he could receive the best R&R facilities – he will also find the best reinforcements available if he desired to counterattack.
All sound military decisions.
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This is yet another attempt to shove your alt views into this conversation.
So does this mean that when ANYONE who attempts to make an opinion they are also shoving their views into the conversation or is this just me?
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Pure logic with maps. The clans were coming down from the north side of the IS. Given Victor was on the west side of the map the entire time, why would he jump to the east side at this point? Other then trying to shove Katherine into ruling the LC?
Yes it is Pure Logic with the Maps.
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/09/Fs-3039.png?timestamp=20100529224556
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/6e/Lc-3040.png?timestamp=20100529215749
Assumption: Hanse is still alive!
Question: What is the primary FC objective if the Clans have taken Terra and are now taking surrounding systems for their personal fiefdom?
Answer: It is quite clear that their primary objective is to keep the corridor between the Lyran Half and the Suns Half of the FC Open.
To this end I postulated that the FC would finally have a come to god moment and realize that Kesselring (Italian campaign WW2) was correct – prepared defensive lines are required!
Thus, you have to get in front of the Clan Advance – This would put Victor’s forces (in all probability) somewhere along the line from Pollux to Epsilon Indi with Terra Firma probably as the regional military command at this stage.
However the largest military power (that can be moved – as DC / FC have come to an agreement by this stage – however the CC would still be sitting on their hands and as such they are a threat to the FC) in this region still remains within the Draconis Combine. Thus a flanking attack from the direction of Ozawa (area) is likely – Thus Victor would move to link up with these forces to undertake a combined counter attack.
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As Victor is ruler of the LC as well as the FS, he would be duty bound to be where the thickest fighting is at.
Assumption: Hanse has died and Melissa is now Archon / Regent of the Federated Suns – as Victor still wants to play soldier and as such he has refused to take the throne.
At this stage Victor should be assigned to the company of Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek-Davion – as he is now supposed to take the throne of the FC as both Archon and First Prince – allowing him to remain on the battlefield is the height of stupidity!
Sorry, but my logic is dead on!
Also striking from hidden bases located on hidden worlds was proven effective during the War of 3039 so saying they have no concept in this war is lacking.
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It was suggested before hand that Hanses death does occur. Yet you assume to put in your view then suggest it is not wrong?
07/30/22 11.01AM – “since Melissa and Hanse were alive”
07/30/22 10:10PM – “ Hanse and Melissa being alive means Katherine is not in any sort of position to even try and take the FC.”
It is only the next day are we informed that Hanse is dead
07/31/22 09:44PM – “Given Hanse died before this would happen, ….”
So how am I, Requiem, to infer Hanse is assumed Dead, by Ghostrider, for the purpose of this forum on 07/30/22 when it was expressly stated that he was alive?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 12:36 AM
45.51.181.83
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There is no time line as this is NOT an alt. What part of this do you not understand? There is NO story here. As stated near the beginning, finding out when the point of departure was the question. How do you get that anything is already done? You assume everything, then complain when you got called out.
As this is not an alt, there is nothing decided on if the DC/FC called a truce or in a hot war. Not decided. How difficult is this to understand? The logic suggest only trying to get arguments going is the reason for such a blatant calling of anything.
I then assumed that it would be in Victor’s best interest at this stage to fall back to the most secure position he could find – the Draconis March – there he could receive the best R&R facilities – he will also find the best reinforcements available if he desired to counterattack.
All sound military decisions.
The most secured position he could find would be the Crusius March, not the Draconis March. The Capellan March is safer then the Draconis March. And there would be no reason to head into the FS at all, when the LC needed a real military leader, not someone like Nondi. But again, your pushing the alt with the 'perfect' logic that doesn't exist.
There is no opinion in your responses, but a direct only way it can go due to the perfect logic you came up with in your own views.
As there is nothing set in stone about what happens after the clans first contact, you are putting in your own visions and views into something that was not even set in stone. Then again, this is NOT your set up. This is why you continue to shove crap in our faces with YOUR view of what is going to happen. Something you don't seem to understand at all. This is not your vision, nor is it anywhere started to be set up. NOW LEAVE THE THREAD.
As for a new alt, the post before last was the first I seen anything said about it. I guess the original was so full of logic holes, it had to be abandoned. But I do suspect that only the names have been changed, and the same story was done.
Edited by ghostrider (08/02/22 12:42 AM)
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Karagin
08/02/22 12:59 AM
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One thing I can see that could be happening if Phelan were to escape from the Clans is a change in how they treat bondsmen. Now here is a plot twist, what if Ulric allows Phelan to escape and does so in a manner that he makes sure that Phelan gets specific schematics and such to take with him? That would be an exciting twist. This lends the question of would the information be fully trusted by Morgan. Would Morgan first give the Dragoons a copy or both the Dragoons and the Fed-Com?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/02/22 06:09 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
There is not timeline, as this is NOT an alt.
Then any assumption can be made and included.
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The most secured position … the Crusius March
Really?
A this point in time a fair assumption would be that the Draconis Combine has signed a secret non-aggression pact with the Federated Commonwealth – as they are both engaged in a life-or-death struggle with the Clans, an unknown force from beyond the Periphery.
In comparison the Combine is run by a despot psychopath who does not care about the Clans as the belief is they are not a threat, who in all likelihood would care more about retrieving lost territory than survival from an unknown threat.
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‘perfect’ logic that doesn’t exist
Really?
Then what is your assumption?
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There is no opinion in your responses, but a direct only way it can go due to the perfect logic you came up with in your own views.
Isn’t this a projection of your opinion of me?
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As there is nothing set in stone about what happens after the clans first contact.
If this is correct then I could even say that due to Turtle Bay the Draconis Combine has decided to wage a nuclear war against the Clans. And as a consequence the Federated Commonwealth has followed suit.
And the attack upon Terra is the last survivors of all the Clans Invasion Fleets attempting a last ditch attempt at conquering Terra for the Home Clans … to light the beacon of a second Clan Invasion.
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with YOUR view of what is going to happen
So it is acceptable for everyone else to have a view, just not me.
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Phelan
If Ulric betrays the Clans – could this be the wardens undertaking their first step to betray the Crusaders in a grand plan attempt to purge the Clans of its more ‘evil vices’. i.e. Operation Valkyrie (Clan Style)
As for Morgan, he would more likely provide the information to Melissa – his best friend’s daughter.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/02/22 11:03 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
I
And what would happen when the mechs Comstar sold the DC are used in battle against the clans? No one in the IS was building them at the time. It could be used to accuse Comstar of arming the IS against the clans.
This would most like get a laugh from the Clans or a bit of notice and then ignored since the tech would be considered second-line compared to the front-line stuff they are using. Now IF and as said in one of the posts above, the Combine has armed more units, then Jaguars might use it as to why they haven't gotten as far in their corridor as the other Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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A thought came up when I got up this morning.
What if Phelan was brainwashed during his interrogation, and became a spy for the clans? That would be one interesting twist.
Well looking at the Comstar mechs, it came to me that most mechs used in the IS are downgraded SL mechs, so that was a mistake on my part.
Now if the clans wanted to really show they were superior gunners, they would take their old stockpiles they upgraded with the lesser critical systems and weight, and fight the IS with those ones instead of the omnis.
I do like the idea that maybe Ulric decided to help the IS show the crusaders their invasion was foolish. That might be a good start for a what if having the clans stopped and started being rolled back so the Tukkuyid fight didn't happen. Doesn't meant it couldn't be used here. The idea would fit well with the advanced depots he was setting up for the blitz he was performing. Let Phelan know the location of one such depot, so some examples with the blueprints were in one location. Maybe a fully operational Timberworld or other mechs could be in there as well as supplies. Ulric could write it off as bad luck for the clan, as the IS found it, diverting the blame from Phelan and himself.
It might fit to have some intel on one of the other clans supply bases, or even a route, and have that information go with Phelan.
So to confirm, we are sticking with the same 4 clans to start with, in their same location corridors?
As we are talking about them taking Terra, I would think a few things would have to happen, such as more starting, or activating some sooner.
I could see Leo trying to punish some warden clans by having them come in and deal with the flanks. First making them fight the Jaguars for a few worlds, then assigning them to the periphery areas of the DC and FC. Nothing that gets them anything but losses and insults them with periphery worlds, and no real chance of being near Terra.
Which ones and when would have to be worked out if this is done.
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Karagin
08/02/22 12:30 PM
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Four Clans is fine; starting the others a bit sooner could happen, maybe with the Twycross/Wolcott mess being the key. Yeah, the Periphery area would be an ideal spot for them to start in then they could sweep in and cause more issues for the DC and FC as well, possibly the FWL or the FS part of the FC.
Some of the mechs the Combine got were intact and had the SL tech, so they would have those as well as what the Helm MC gave them. They would not have the stuff in mass quainties, again no need for it. Not until well after their run ins with the Clans,.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 04:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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Not suggesting an increase in units that the Core gave data for. I was saying a majority of the units used in the IS were supposedly SL mechs, that were downgraded due to losing tech to make them SL models. There were new mechs made, that isn't an issue. The Hatchtman, Wolfhound, Dragon and a few others came after the fall of the SL, but things like the Atlas, Locust, Phoenix Hawk and others were SL models.
One possible situation that could cause an increase is the bombing of Turtle Bay. The dishonorable act, may well have caused the home clans to force a new decision for who is to continue the attacks. Maybe even limit the Jaguars, and remove Leo from Ilkhan.
Wow. Just thought of what that would mean to the entire invasion. The Jaguars being removed from going further, as well as losing the top command spot. That could well cause a major uproar in the entire clan society.
Using this thought, it could also be applied to the Jade Falcons, as they refused to issue the batchall for worlds. This could very well lead to why the Wolves might be the ones to take Terra. The Ghost Bears did nothing that would be considered dishonorable, but the resistance in the FRR worlds they took might cause them to have to put to many units into garrison/retaking revolting worlds. With the Jaguars sidelined, they might strike into the Bears to vent their anger.
Just some thoughts...
I agree that the houses would not be on a war production run at the time. The FC knows they would have the forces to hit the DC again, and they would have more upgraded units, provided Comstar doesn't save them again. If they did, the other houses would definitely know Comstar was not neutral anymore. All the houses would have a good idea of what the DC could make, and a dozen or more regiments of mechs with upgraded tech would show up like a sore thumb. Using the ghost regiments did hide the 3039 war increase. I don't think many outside the DC even knew they existed until the war.
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Karagin
08/02/22 04:16 PM
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I thought you were talking about mechs like the Champion, Thorn, and others from the TRO2750.
The Turtle Bay thing that could be seen as an increase in frustration by the Jaguars. Since the Combine worlds weren't just rolling over and giving up as the Clans were used to. Say this causes the Bears to call for a vote of censor or trial against the Jaguars for using the orbital bombardment as they did since the target was still civilian in nature. That could cause rifts to appear in the Clans, which the IS could exploit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 05:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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I was thinking of causing the clans to send more in, as this is supposed to be about them taking Terra, but this could also be used to make a thread about the clans being kicked out of the IS. That was part of several ideas for other threads.
This censor or removal of the Jaguars could very well lead to more clans being sent in, or even a trial of annihilation against them, though a trial is more severe then it should be. Annihilation probably wouldn't happen if they hit a home world with it, so an IS world is far less likely to cause that much.
As the clans were ignoring a lot of the intel they were getting, some units would surprise them, such as the ones in 2750. More then a few would have been reported not made during the last Dragoon intel run, Then again, the clans could get upset that the IS found yet another coveted SL cache and violated it by taking the machines in there. So it could be used to help them get to Terra.
I would think there would need to be more supplies brought in with the clans, as their running out should not happen with the taking of Terra concept. That is unless the IS started making clantech and it falling into the hands of the clans due to planetary wins, or capturing supplies headed for front line unit, ie got over run, and the supply transports show up at that moment.
And as much as the clanners would be upset, i think they would be more likely to use SL tech to replace their destroyed clantech in their mechs to keep them in the fight. More trials of possession would be fought as the supply of mechs dwindled. This is counter to taking Terra. It might get bad enough that the clans would start using IS vehicles to soften up defenses.
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Requiem
08/02/22 07:44 PM
1.147.88.67
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And what would happen when the mechs ComStar sold to the DC are used in battle against the Clans?
As the clans also engage in commerce between the Clans – including Mechs – wouldn’t this be seen as a normal commerce transaction?
Also Ghost Regiments were utilized within the invasion.
6th Ghost – Nov 3051 Marshdale – Vs. Clan Smoke Jaguar – 3rd Jaguar Cavaliers
2nd Ghost – Feb 3052 Caripare – Vs. Clan Nova Cat – 1st Nova Cat Guards
Also blaming enemy equipment for lack of progress is not an excuse the other Clans would accept – the Jaguars would be derived and thought of as being week just for attempting to suggest the excuse.
Only mass victory in battle is seen as the goal – all else is dross – remember they do see themselves as Mongol warriors.
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Phelan – Brainwashed
When did the clans believe that using such a tactic is honourable? Would they have used a tactic in the past on other Clan Warriors or is this just used on freeborn within the Kerensky Cluster Worlds?
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Utilizing second line mechs in the invasion
Taking a war steed away from a warrior and providing them with a draft horse will have a detrimental effect upon all warriors – they will see this as an afront o their honour.
So the khan who proposes this will not be alive long enough to regret their decision.
If parity within the game is your objective then IS should be allowed to reverse engineer clan weapons sooner than later – they should also be manufacturing more IS omni mechs and replacing old designs with these modern designs asap ….
i.e. they should actually be acting like a normal military for once – incorporating new R&D designs asap rather than the ridiculous story provided to maintain Clan military technology superiority. That can only be considered to be unbelievably naïve.
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I do like the idea that maybe Ulric decided to help the IS show the crusaders their invasion was foolish.
Thank you,
How far is this going to go?
Clan civil war within the IS invasion corridors?
How will the IS react to such a civil war – will they even be allowed to interfere in such a war? Would Ulric request they do not interfere?
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As we are talking about them taking Terra
Increased bids by all Clans would be a given
Once within the IS – increased number of worlds attacked per wave to reduce time of IS forces counter-attacking.
Clans would actually need to possess a military intelligence division – no longer would they rely upon ComStar.
They would need an increase output in the number of graduates from their sibkos.
They would need o re-allocate many of their trueborn workets etc. to worlds closer to the IS in order to manufacture everything the warriors and their equipment required for the Invasion – i.e establish a clan colony close to the IS. This is turn will reduce the time ir resupply.
What this will also mean is that the IS never find Huntress – Operation Serpent will end up on these worlds – battle to capture Clan Colony Worlds will be used as he pretext for slowing down the Clans whist they on Terra – attacking their rear supply bases whist the bulk of their military are close to Terra (Plot Twist?).
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they could sweep in and cause more issues for the DC and FC as well, possibly the FWL or the FS part of the FC.
Tyranny of distance intensified – would play marry hell with their resupply units if they attempted to open a second / third front – would need more Home Clans to even attempt this.
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Some of the mechs the Combine got were intact and had the SL tech, so they would have those as well as what the Helm MC gave them. They would not have the stuff in mass quantises, again no need for it. Not until well after their run in with the Clans.
Sorry but I disagree – as stated above the DCMS need advanced tech asap to stave off the next invasion by the AFFC. Thus, by a happy coincidence, the DCMS are in a better position to stave off he Clans once their invasion commences.
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There were new mechs made
The omni design is nothing new to military forces – just look at the number of multi-purpose vehicles created – all military throughout history is attempting to get the most for their available funds.
So why not allow the IS to begin their own omni-mech program before the invasion – such as an omni Crusader / Archer model?
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Turtle Bay … may well have caused the home clans to force a new decision for who is to continue the attacks. Maybe even limit the Jaguars, and remove Leo from Ilkhan.
Has a clan used this tactic on rioting freeborn in he past? If they have then politically the home clans do not have a leg to stand on as the Jaguars are using this on barbarian freeborn.
To get this reaction this must be the first time the clans have ever used such a tactic … and even then Leo will challenge the decision in the circle of equals … so depending on how he vote goes will determine outcome.
i.e. the same as when Aiden Pride announced he was not freeborn but true born …
As for the wider Clan Society – all should halt their invasions until this has been rectified.
As for the Falcon’s not issuing Batchall for worlds – this is a separate matter and would require a second censure motion ….
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other houses would definitely know Comstar was not neutral anymore.
All houses should have known this way earlier – given the shadow wars, ComStar manufacturing a censure of the FS for attacking one of their HPGs in he 4th Succession War, letting he entire IS know the existence of the ComGuards, letting the DC construct Ghost Units made up primarily of lost SLDF mechs …. Etc.
It’s a given that all houses now recognise ComStar as a “great house” whose aim is also to conquer the IS and establish a Blakean Theocracy …. The real issue is once you realise this you will also need to consider that ComStar still possess all the knowledge of the former Star League era – and they are currently hiding it.
Thus the use of long term sleeper agents into ComStar to find out!
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i think they would be more likely to use SL tech to replace their destroyed clantech in their mechs to keep them in the fight.
Problem – that would be like using old WW2 tank parts in an attempt to fix a modern tank – not compatible.
And even if they do fit who would even consider it as the old weaponry does not come equipped with modern targeting systems to assist with gunnery etc.
Also all Trueborn Clan warriors would be horrified at the thought that their Mech had been bastardized with IS sub-tech.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 09:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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So with the possible inclusion of some of the other clans, if Turtle Bay creates the demand for them, what clans do you think would be activated? The Vipers and the Cats? Or would they activate some of the other clans? The end run in the periphery part to strike at the houses from different directions would really cause a lot of problems for the IS.
I would think those clans would be upset at first, but then they would believe they had a chance to become the Ilclan with a less defended route. Anyone that was chosen to come thru the Exodus Road the SLDF used to leave might think it an honor to do so.
I just realized the canon story line DID have Ulric help the IS to prove to the crusaders, the invasion was a bad idea. The Tukkiyud fight was such a plan. The idea that any organization could stop them would have dealt the blow that it did indeed do in the canon story. But this is a bit off from the clans taking Terra, so might be touched in another thread.
Another possible push for more clans would be the ones that didn't get to be involved, could well be insulting those that did, for they had not pushed as far, and as fast as those left out would wait for. I can see trials happening to entice the invading clans to pick up the pace, or move aside and let real warriors in. As I don't see much of any units of the main invaders being left in the clan home worlds, I don't see more of the initial 4 bringing in their own forces. Which is kind of odd. The Wolves brought only two warships, yet the information suggests they had plenty more. So how would that play out? More galaxies that weren't named in the books? Or did they increase their size by making new ones before they left?
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Karagin
08/03/22 01:15 AM
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The Clans brought what they thought they would need, warship-wise, considered their information from the Dragoons, and the captured Explore Corps vessel made it clear the Inner Sphere didn't have warships. Now, if they all brought what is, for the most, a fleet in being a concept, then they had enough to keep each Clan honest and enough firepower to use as needed IF they ran to something they couldn't handle with ground forces. Nothing is saying that a Clan couldn't call up more if they felt they needed them, the Khans of each Clan had control of their logistical systems and such, so if they wanted to, they could call more ships from the homeworld.
Ulric wanted the Inner Sphere to be both a foil and an anvil for the Clans. He wanted it to blunt and then sharpen the Clans so they would see that they were a part of humanity and not above it.
I think the Cats and Vipers would be called in and let loose on the flanks. Thus, the war changes shape, and things move to new fronts, and the Inner Sphere shows that they can handle the changes better than the Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 01:52 AM
45.51.181.83
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One thing to consider with the addition of the Cats and Vipers. Would the existing clans decide to use them to help move the front forward quicker?
Or do as suggested and widen the front by spreading out more?
We know from the books telling us, the IS had the major numbers advantage over the clans, especially if the IS would use their vehicles effectively.
As the Wolves would race ahead, it would be to the other 3 initial clans to focus more on getting to Terra, then spreading out. Which, I guess, we are going to follow with the what if.
Thinking that maybe using crusader sentiment over the wardens could get something like a common goal going.
The attempt for a complete take over can happen after Terra is taken, and the clans find out it wasn't important to the IS.
That is another issue to figure out. Does the IS decide to play ball with the clans once they have Terra, and reform the SL? Or do they ignore the claim and fight on?
Given the books telling us, the reinforcements from just the 4 clans is not enough to really do much about a full take over, and not sure if they can hold the worlds they took, once they got near Terra. The shock of the assault as well as the weapons with Comstar covering for them helped a lot to do some real damage, their warships are about the only thing the IS can't negate with sheer numbers of ground units. They might be able to do something with bringing together some large fighter groups, and speed up the naval weapons dropships, but they still have to move such forces into striking range. The Leopard CV is not going to cut it with bringing in fighter groups.
This is not suggesting the IS gain warships sooner then canon. My opinion on that is the IS warships can remain dead, but this probably won't be the case in the what if.
This also calls into question if the clans have yardships. I would bet they would call them up when their warships start taking damage, as it doesn't sound like much in the IS would be able to fix them.
It also needs to be answered about if the clans keep control of Terra as well.
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Requiem
08/03/22 03:00 AM
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what clans do you think would be activated?
The decision, in my opinion, would return to the original bidding process for each of the 17 remaining clans.
On the second day these included …
Steel Vipers – as the reserve clan
And with Diamond Sharks and Nova Cats, who called for a Trial of Refusal for the right to be “next in line” should additional Clans be required.
Thereafter if any additional Clans are required we are either going to have to determine what were the closest bids to Diamond Sharks / Nova Cats or call for a second bidding process …
Clan Coyote would make for a good partner with the Nova Cats.
Clan Snow Raven would be required for Fleet Logistical Transport.
Clan Cloud Cobra – heavy emphasis on the aerospace forces sounds like this could be fun.
Lastly, and most important of all – with the IS resurrecting the Star League and the SLDF I believe the greatest missed opportunity should be considered … reintroduce …
Clan Wolverine, yes they should come out of hiding now!
This could be all the push you need to get more Clans to join the invasion
Can you imagine the bru-ha-ha if Clan Wolverine was on Terra defending it with ComGuard etc. against the Clans – this would make for an interesting scenario.
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Ulric
In all reality I do not believe Ulric would have to prove to the crusaders that the invasion was a bad idea – First, any run into an experienced RCT (or equivalent) should have chewed up most unsupported two to even three trinary group.
Second, in attempting to govern any largely populated world – any Clan no matter how big they are would find this impossible without the assistance of the local population – and given the way the trueborn warriors treat their freeborn this will lead to the third problem …
Third, partisans … they can expect constant terrorist activities on every world they conquer – and given their sociology they will not understand why and when they end up using a heavy hand this will only just intensify the problem.
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did they increase their size by making new ones before they left?
Unless the clan abandons their Sibko Trueborn training regime, and adopts an IS academy style for Freeborns it is quite impossible to increase the size of any Clan rapidly – any major shift in the size of a Clan will take decades to implement!
This is the main problem with the Clan Invasion – replacement personnel – strictly speaking if any Clan suffers a high depletion report they will be unable to replace these personal quickly unless they open the positions to individuals to take their positioning test a second time or allow for mass Freeborns in as warriors – and I really cannot see this happening any time soon.
The only other means is reaving or a Trial of Absorption – both of which can be considered high risk gambits – as well as how do you as an IS Clan undertake such a transference in forces from the IS to the Clan Home worlds to undertake such a trial?
(This is where Jade Falcons / Wolves fall off the rails once mre!)
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The Clans brought what they thought they would need, warship-wise
Consider - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine
Then have a look at Nuke Proofing SLDF Style
Then consider the history of the IS – especially the 1st Succession War and the proliferation of Nukes.
In all reality nukes should have been the main worry for all Clans – given the Barbarians who inhabit the IS they should have believed that these low life individuals would utilize such devious weapons … Thus each Clan should have adopted a need to protect their transports etc from aerospace (nuke) attack.
More ships and more aerospace fighters should have been considered a must by a cautious Khan …
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Nothing is saying that a Clan couldn't call up more if they felt they needed them
As stated many times – if you modify the size of your original bid to invade the IS – Massive loss of honour in the face of the other Clans. So not something to do lightly.
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… so they would see that they were a part of humanity and not above it.
Sorry Ulric, but given the Clans current sociology the only way this was going to occur is if you cut out the tumour – i.e. kill off all Crusaders then modify the internal sociology of all remaining warden Clans – and in all cases this will also mean the destruction of all Iron Wombs for all Clans.
And I really cannot see this happening any time soon!
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would be called in and let loose on the flanks.
Makes for an interesting new dynamic into the invasion and would through the DCMS and the AFFC for a loop initially …
Though how do they catch up given how far they are lagging behind? …
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Would the existing clans decide to use them to help move the front forward quicker?
More to the point how would the Cats / Vipers feel being placed into a support role to assist another Clan to reach Terra first?
Cannot say they would be too thrilled with the idea.
My bet would be they would need to prove themselves – thus widen he front – and Blitzkrieg all the way to the front.
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We know from the books telling us, the IS had the major numbers advantage over the clans, especially if the IS would use their vehicles effectively.
Problem – TPTB rarely if ever allow them into the war.
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As the Wolves would race ahead
This could mean the wolves spring any IS trap first and as a consequence take high damage …
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a common goal going
What happens after the conquest of Terra – the conquest of the IS? However, this is far more of a pain than anything they could have considered.
Given the animosity between the Stay at home and the Inner Sphere Clans – something has got to give sooner or latter – especially when there is also a crusader / warden mix to consider.
Civil War anyone?
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Does the IS decide to play ball with the clans once they have Terra, and reform the SL? Or do they ignore the claim and fight on?
Why would you trust the Clans when they want to make slaves of you through a caste system based on genetic purity – whist at the same time killing off your family history by removing your last name permanently.
This is war to the death of didn’t anyone realise this? – Just like TPTB they forgot this and ended up creating a diatribe series of novels based on substandard logic - which can be seen through their very sub standard characters – Victor in particular!
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My opinion on that is the IS warships
This is a space opera – the more the better. As warships are the king of the battlefield – now if we could jus get some decent rules for them as well as removing the nuke menace.
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if the clans have yard-ships.
Considering the vast distance your logistics fleet are required to travel as well as the vast size of the logistics fleet required to keep the Clans in the field it is a given that there should also be a vast yard-ship fleet to assist located all along the exodus route and within the IS invasion corridor.
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if the clans keep control of Terra as well.
Given the size of the population as well as the history of Terra – The Clans do not have a chance of holding onto Terra once the partisan war commences – IEDs will be a daily occurrence!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/03/22 09:19 AM
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I would see the Falcons spreading out some to get an edge somewhat to get around the Wolves and their drive on Terra. So yes, for them, I could see a spreading out to the what be their right flank of their corridor. The Bears would pick up their pace, but they would be pressed against the Jaguars, who would be driving hell bent in towards Terra. Still, at the same time, the Jaguars will be smarting from the stubborn defense of the Combine, and unless we are showing them (Jaguars) differently, they will be itching to get some payback. Clashes with the Bears will happen; Clan trials and such didn't just stop.
I don't see the Inner Sphere playing ball. They will fight. The Houses that survive the opening invasion will regroup, rearm, and start planning their next moves with Terra in the hands of Clan Wolf. This means really nothing overall to the rest of the House lords. They didn't control it before that point, so nothing has changed. What has changed, though, is that a hostile power that now can wield the Clans as a unified force holds the planet along with a large swath of former FC, DC, and FRR worlds. That is what they will see.
There will be another lull in the fighting once the Wolves have Terra since the Clans will need to adjust to the change in who is the new top dog, and the pack sorts itself out. That gives the Houses breathing room, which means they can rearm, regroup and plan. The FC will be as badly hit as the DC so they will be shuffling units around. I still say by this point, the two parts of the FC will be cut off from each other. This could cause issues down the road.
The FWL, regardless of an imposter on the throne, will have a large chunk of former ComStar refugees, makes sense they would flee to the one House that hasn't been their biggest enemy. So the FWL would be digging in and figuring out what to do. The CapCon, well, we saw how dismissive their leaders were on Outreach of the Clans, and if Romano is still running things, then they will be a target for whatever the Clans do next.
The FS side of the FC will be digging in, and I believe Hanse will try to get some of the local Periphery powers to join the fight. It's a long shot, but he might see it as a card to play at this point.
The Combine will be hard-pressed since they will now have the Bears, Wolves, Jaguars, and the Cats to deal with. That means changes will come to their system quicker than planned, and cracks will show. Theodore is going to be dealing with a lot of reactionary factions and officers, which in turn will harm their response to the next wave of fighting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/03/22 09:20 AM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Houses getting warships in any number any sooner than 3065.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 11:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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A thought came up dealing with Phelan.
Since he did have some computer skills, shown by his lockpick, what if he was able to hack into some of the computers where he was at, when part of the bondsmen? That might be a way to get some of the data talked about earlier in the thread.
Once the clans start pushing out from Terra, the FC would be split, IF the clans are successful. They may have to stop with just Terra, as casualties would outstrip reinforcements by the time they got to Terra. I would figure they would reach Terra no sooner then 3054, given the pace they had in canon. But that does lead to issues with the IS warship production.
Comstar was selling the engines to the IS, and with the Sol system now out of their hands, where would the engines come from? It is assumed that the Titan shipyards would be producing them, though it is likely they are made on Terra, and shipped out. So would that, with possibly making a new engine production facility in one of the houses, push back the initial warship release?
I know I have said this before, so it will sound like I am pushing the idea, but the use of naval grade weapons in ground batteries should start popping up on worlds close to Terra and definitely on the capital worlds that could get them.
This would give some stronger defenses against warships getting to worlds, possibly causing the clans to rethink spreading out.
Unless something happens, the Bears would not be much of a threat to the DC once they get to Terra. The Jaguars would have them sealed in, so unless they go thru Jag territory, they are basically out of the game until the DC breaks thru the Jags. This doesn't mean the Bears would be inactive, as if the Jags don't take Terra, it is possible the Bears seal the Jags out of that area, and continue pushing into the chaos march and CC. Maybe even turning further into the FS, if forces permit. The Bears being less of a threat is even more true if the other clans insulate the Jaguars from the rest of the DC.
It is possible the FWL and CC retake some of the Chaos March worlds so they can strike the clans before they start into the main parts of their nations. I would see this as an alternative to the Clans, but not sure about it.
With all the forces garrisoned on worlds, and the surprise attacks now gone, I think the clans would suffer even more losses trying to expand. As vehicles would exact a heavy toll on them. Vehicles like the Alacorn and VTOLs would become more effective then the canon story has them. Also, worlds closer to Terra would have more defensive structures to slow down and distract the clans then some of the worlds closer to the Periphery border.
Dedending on the speed, repairs for the omnis would be showing, as resources should be stretched. In canon, they were showing during the Tukiyud fight. Unless that is cleared up, they would be really hurting by the time they hit Terra.
And thinking about it, the Diamond Sharks would be getting rich, as they would see, they were supplying most of the clans with supplies. This would definitely raise issues with those having to buy them. I could see trials of possession being called against the Sharks supply ships.
This could also be a reason why the wolves get to Terra, as the others could very well have such a supply shortage, they couldn't make it in time to stop the Wolves.
And this is assuming we are using the Wolves to take Terra. I would think it might be a decent idea to have a clan or two not make it within 10 jumps of Terra. This could mean only the Wolves or maybe one other clan would make it.
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Karagin
08/03/22 01:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Bears allowing themselves to be cut off by the Jaguars. I see them pushing just as hard to get something that puts them close to Terra. One thing I do see happening, though is both the Falcons and the Jaguars getting frustrated by the guerrilla fighting that the FC/LC and the DC will use to tie down both second-line and front-line troops. Those two Clans will be harder pressed to deal with such things as they are harshed on the civilian populations than the Wolves or Bears.
The Sharks would see everything as manta from Kerensky himself. They would be hot on the tails of the invasion ready and wait with ships loaed with parts and ammo, and other things the invading Clans will need. They will be very quick to get deals in place with all four Clans and have such in place already with the Vipers and Cats.
Yes, I could see that if the Sharks have a pre-planned supply route in place with Ulric, that he bargined for ahead of time, then no one can fault him for planning smarter. They will trying but who can really fault a commander for being prepared?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 03:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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The clans leaders did laugh at Ulric while he was getting far more supplies then the other three. Not sure if that number would be combined or not, but he did have more items in route during the invasion. This is part of what drove the other clans crazy in canon. There was no pause to refit and reinforce. The Wolves were doing that as the battles ended, not during the pause between waves. The larger count of worlds they would attack showed the other clans up. Once those were taken, the non participating clans would have seen Ulric was a better leader for that.
I could see the sharks actually gaining worlds from their supply runs. Simply charging enough to bargain for worlds in order for the purchase of supplies.
The inclusion of the Cats and Vipers would lighten the load on the Jaguars and Falcons, as they would be flanking some defenders. This might lead to increased political pressure on the Jaguars and Falcons to push to much and start making some mistakes, or just having damaged equipment being part of yet another push, meaning them losing battles and salvage. This could be used to help bring the DC/FC tech up to clan levels. This could be used to remove the clans if the story leads in that direction, or inflict even more damage on the flankers. It may well cause a stalemate around Terra when the clans take it.
Depending on when the clans take Terra, I can see a push by the Jaguars and Cats to push into the FS portion, in order to secure a world near Terra. The Bears would make sure they had one, and it might mean pushing 'east or right' on the map to do so. They may even push south far enough to engage the CC in order to do this.
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Requiem
08/03/22 05:09 PM
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I would see the Falcons spreading out … their right flank of their corridor.
Question, where are the falcons going to get the forces necessary to garrison these worlds and at the same time retain enough forces to drive on Terra?
Problem – Every Clan has a limited number within their TO&E Touman.
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The Bears and Jaguars … would be driving hell bent towards Terra.
Yes, I agree, every Clan would be attempting a blitzkrieg strategy the closer they get to Terra.
However, the issue is how would the IS be reacting to this?
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I don't see the Inner Sphere playing ball. They will fight.
YES!
When can we finally say that the IS will finally have a come to god moment and realise that attractional warfare is the only way to bleed the Clans dry – Given the principle of Sibkos for replacement personnel as well as the impossibility of maintaining any garrison on a high partisan world (such as any DC and FRR world) – the Clans must sooner or later realise that they are ill equipped to remain within the IS … this nonsense of holding every world with a Vichy government must be recognised for the lunacy it is!
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will regroup, rearm
YES!
A new SL with a new SLDF – urgency to assist one another …
Reverse engineer clan weapons
Some type of Grey Death Legion power Armour
Infantry weapon to combat the Toad / Elemental.
IS Omni Mech / Fighter
IS warships
At the very minimum ….
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There will be another lull in the fighting once the Wolves have Terra
What is this a children’s game for the Clans and the IS?
Sorry, but no … by the time any Clan reaches Terra their overall available forces must be incredibly depleted – remember they have a limited available forces due to the initial bid – so unless they can find additional forces from somewhere their ability to hold anything is next to nil.
(A simple excel sheet proves this!)
So if you want any Clan to hold Terra first you have to identify whare the additional forces are coming from and how the clans are addressing the issue of replacement personnel through a sibko system.
May I suggest that the winner is Clan Jade Wolf – with a reduced fiefdom to free up units for the final drive towards Terra?
Also if the Clans stop I cannot see the IS stopping – just because the remaining Clans are having an existential moment doesn’t mean the IS need to follow suit.
Yes I agree both the FC and the DC will be badly hit – however both have access to academy systems as well as national service conscription if necessary, and they both have access to a massive military industrial complex for vehicles and fighters (at the minimum).
Thus the question is can the Clans sustain a loss of warriors at the same rate as that of the IS – the sibko systems says they will break sooner or later! Whereas any leader who is on par with Stalin to a loss of people (Katherine and Theodore) will just see this as a mathematical issue … WW1 trench warfare / Stalingrad anyone?
The FWL should join the new SL and the SLDF – thus sooner or later their forces should be used to reinforce the beleaguered AFFC, DCMS, ComGuard, FRRM and mercs. The question is when do you slot them in?
As for the CC – two choices
First, they were removed from the board n 3039 and Sun-Tzu is now attempting a coup within St. Ives to reform the CC.
Second, due to the 4th Succession War only a small CC remain on the board – as such either Romano or Sun-Tzu have decided this is not their problem and they will have nothing to do with this rump SL and SLDF, whist at the same time they are attempting to build a fortress CC with a massive new military … for in reality they are running scared of the Clans inwardly.
The FS – just like the FWL they will be churning out massive numbers of military products and new units due to their massive military industrial complex and academy systems …
The Periphery – due to their geographical location, lack of any real industries and absolute loathing for anything and anyone IS will have nothing to do with Hanse’s request for assistance. That is unless Hanse can sweeten the pot with something that will change their mind – Education, and Military and Civilian Industries to get them back on par with the IS?
Could the combine and Lyran states be on the verge of collapse due to loss of forces? Flip a coin?
Quote:
Warships
In all reality if you don’t want a nuclear war in space IS vs Clan then you have little choice but to allow the IS have warships way-way earlier – 3050 to 3051.
However, if I had my way the IS should have started during the latter half of the 3040’s.
Though I doubt many would agree with me.
Quote:
Phelan
Question – how is he going to get the stolen information to the IS?
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Comstar was selling the engines to the IS, and with the Sol system now out of their hands, where would the engines come from?
How about some simple logic – if the IS cam make Jump-ship engines then they can sure as hell make warship engines at the same time!
The idea that ComStar has a monopoly on warship engines is a bit beyond the pale.
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the use of naval grade weapons in ground batteries should start popping up
Agree.
Problem is they are fixed emplacement weapon systems for all intense and purposes – have a look at D-Day as well as the Maginot line for how effective fixed emplacement weapons are.
Usually they are seen as the height of human hubris … and a waste of resources – as what is their arc of fire? Can mech’s / commandoes get in under this and take them out?
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It is possible the FWL and CC retake some of the Chaos March worlds so they can strike the clans
As above – FWL will become a member of SL and SLDF sooner or later – thus will be allowed into the corridor to take on the clans. – The CC are another matter altogether.
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With all the forces garrisoned on worlds, and the surprise attacks now gone, I think the clans would suffer even more losses trying to expand. As vehicles would exact a heavy toll on them.
Agree.
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Depending on the speed, repairs for the omnis would be showing, as resources should be stretched.
Agree.
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the Diamond Sharks would be getting rich, as they would see, they were supplying most of the clans with supplies.
And when will the other clans either censure or outright attack them for being merchants rather than being warriors – sooner or later other Clan’s warriors will view this Clan as being an anathema to Kerensky’s vision especially when they are getting rich whist all the others are on a sacred mission to liberate Terra from the Barbarians!
Something will have to give, in regards to, the growing enmity towards this this Clan’s mercantile practices.
And yes if the Wolves (or Jade Wolves) do not have an adequate transport system I can see other clans using the Sharks as their cats paw to slow things down to gain a competitive advantage.
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One thing I do see happening, though is both the Falcons and the Jaguars getting frustrated by the guerrilla fighting that the FC/LC and the DC will use to tie down both second-line and front-line troops. Those two Clans will be harder pressed to deal with such things as they are harsher on the civilian populations
Agree – and as a consequence the harsher they get the more partisans and IEDs are used … something will have to give one way or another. In all likelihood – mass atrocities by the Clans on the civilian populations as this is all the Clans know – yet as a consequence how will he IS and the other Clans react o this barbaric show of force?
Can anyone say Jihad on Clans?
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he did have more items in route during the invasion. This is part of what drove the other clans crazy
Then were are the mass trials to take these away from the Wolves and at the same time slowing the Wolves progress through the use of this tactic?
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The inclusion of the Cats and Vipers would lighten the load on the Jaguars and Falcons
Yes, however, dependent upon how successful their blitzkrieg into the IS.
If they are stopped then the pressure is back on the Jaguars and Falcons.
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Depending on when the clans take Terra, I can see a push by the Jaguars and Cats to push into the FS portion, in order to secure a world near Terra.
Every Clan would want a fiefdom near Terra – for example, a consolation prize would be Tau Ceti – humanity’s first manned mission to another star system should be considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 09:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny how someone is told to leave a conversation, yet thinks the thread is for their views.
Syntax was mentioned and yet it seems the person that originally used the word, does not seem to understand it.
Putting in statements on how things have to go, then getting upset when they are told the time line hasn't been set, shows a lack of simple understanding. Most would simply ask about things, not state things as fact that they have no clue on.
Logic failures coming to full effect.
It was stated the Tukiyud fight does not happen. It was also stated that Vlad does not rise to power. Yet some how the chain of events, the fight, Ulric being accused of treason, the falcon-wolf war, the ambush of Ulric by the falcon khans does not happen, yet the idea that the Jade Wolves become a focus for who takes Terra.
If the person read the thread, and comprehended things, this would not have appeared. Yet is does.
The suggestion that all IS members form a new SL shows another attempt to force their views into this. The only reason why the canon story has the SL formed was to attack the clans home worlds. This is about the clans taking Terra. Even if the FWL and CC wanted to make one, it would not happen. The clans would make it as they take Terra. If the IS tried to make one, it would bring in all the clans to remove the houses. But as this what if hasn't gotten far enough to deal with that, it is nothing.
Another logic fail that showed up is the warship engines. The transit drive was not produced in any of the succession states, which meant Comstar had the monopoly on it. With the fall of Terra, that would mean no transit drive production in the IS until a new factory could be made, or the clans built one.
The person suggesting that it could be, did not actually look up what was missing, so assumed it was a jump drive.
In October 3056, ComStar's First Circuit decided to allow the sale of transit drives for WarShips (which only the ComStar-controlled Rolls-Royce factories on Terra could produce at the time) to both the Draconis Combine and the Federated Commonwealth.
That is under the heading of Warship in the wiki.
As this thread is suggesting 3065 as being the first warship produced, this is yet another attempt to put in things that those making the what if did not ask for.
This person was asked to leave the conversation, partly due to not knowing Syntax of writing, nor etiquette of how to state things. Asking, when you don't know, and demanding things be done their way is why.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 09:15 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question comes to mind, when do some of the clans realize they can not reach Terra without becoming so weak, they can not even attempt to defend themselves?
This is also why the question of the other clans 'assisting' the Falcons/Jaguars comes to mind. The Wolves have a pass if the Falcons and Jaguars continue to soak up the counter attacks, with the Bear performing the same thing on the eastern flank.
The original story gave the wolves an easier path.
Granted, one they were out of the FRR, then resistance would dramatically rise. The FC/DC border region would be so much more difficult then the FRR was.
I would think that reserves would start showing as inefficient to meet the demands, so the reavening would happen sooner, or maybe 'hiring' another clan to secure the route, while the main forces move forward would need to happen.
The question is if the original agreement for taking Terra was only available to the initial clans that could invade were the only ones that could.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 09:25 PM
45.51.181.83
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Damn cat wanted smashy love. She tries to break your nose by slamming her head into you..
The question about who can take Terra would cause problems, such as if the Cats or Vipers did so in the original story line. I can see the Falcons and Jaguars throwing a major fit, as they took a nasty hit before the other two just showed up to steal their glory. Any additional clans could bring this up in the what if.
But that could be useful as well. Say the home clans got tired of the invasion clans 'taking their time' so decide to get involved in the race without a new bid or trials. This could also be used a little later as well. The home clans hitting the invasion clans for forcing them out of contention.
This would also be keeping with the clans trials of possession, as the invading clans would no longer be off limits because of the invasion and would just be challenging for property.
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Karagin
08/03/22 09:55 PM
70.118.172.64
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They can throw a fit, but since they didn't take Terra, that's all they can do. And recall, the Falcons of this time are more political than they are currently. So they will try and plot and scheme, but they won't have the pull since the Wolves are on Terra and thus have the larger stick to wield. The Jaguars will still be smarting from NOT taking Terra, losing at Wolcott, and having worlds that are not pacified. The same can also be applied to the Falcons, with Twycross being their big black eye. The Bears will likely support the Wolves fully. And if we follow along, they are already planning their coup of moving entirely into whatever they carve out the invasion, so they are not trying to bring attention to themselves.
Now the Home Clans will be the wild card; that is something we need to figure out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/03/22 10:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Bears might have an issue with bringing in their people. Do they try to colonize all the worlds along the route, or stick with a smaller area?
It is almost worth discussing them trading away some worlds to other clans for resources, such as having factories built in their area. They did trade the with the Ravens for the ships.
The home clans might be activated to help take Terra. Or as I said, a reavening might have to happen, as replacements for those lost in the long assault to get to and take Terra. No matter how good things went, it isn't likely they would have enough to control their worlds like they need to. I can definitely see the other invasion clans trying to rip into their worlds along the route.
Maybe some of those worlds might be given to the others, or lightly garrisoned so the entire clans could be brought into the IS. Granted, they could do as the suggestion of the Bears. Maybe sell or trade worlds for services, such as parts to make or fix factories in the Sol system.
But this brings up the deal for the initial invasion.
Does the deal mean just Terra is the Ilclans possession? Or the entire Sol system?
I didn't see anywhere in the agreement just what it covered. The Titan shipyards would definitely be something the Snow Ravens would crave. An SL shipyard in the birth system.
Would there be a fight for the other worlds in the Sol system? Like Venus and Mars?
Time line still needs some work. Does Ulric become Ilkhan when he takes Terra, or does something happen before hand?
We did say Tukiyud doesn't happen, and even Tyra's suicide run wasn't said if it would happen or not. Remember. If Tyra did still take the run, that would mean all on the bridge are dead if Phelan escapes before then.
I guess the run is more important then I thought. Without it, Ulric remains just wolf khan. That is if Leo isn't removed because of the orbital bombardment, which is iffy at best.
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Requiem
08/03/22 10:52 PM
1.158.145.47
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Quote:
Clan Jade Wolf
I find it amazing how assumptions are made from slightest of information – the only information supplied is the assumption that the Wolves and Falcons could unite in a joint endeavour to win Terra – what was not supplied is how and why.
Your comprehension and assumption is that it will occur under the same canon circumstances, when in reality it could be due to a multitude of different circumstances for a multitude of different cast members.
Oh, how quick to cut me to the quick and paint me as the canon villain! When all that was required was a simple question to clarify the situation.
Quote:
transit drive
And here again I was under the impression this was a what if forum – separate from canon specifics.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kearny-Fuchida_Drive
If you want to go down that path, however, the following is also stated, “Following the discovery of the Helm Memory Core, this science has begun to recover, and new designs have begun to be produced.”
So how much the IS Houses now know about manufacturing new KF drives can be considered to be speculative, as they also do have the funding for the research if necessary.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Feng_Huang
Introduced 3058
Also stated, “the Capellan Confederation further upgraded the Necromo Shipyards to the point where WarShips could be constructed completely on site.”
In not paying attention “constructed completely on site” can be said to include the KF drive.
Thus, if the Capellan Confederation can complete this why not the entire IS?
Also can someone fix the Warship site as others are supplying contradictory information.
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The original story gave the wolves an easier path.
And yet the Political reason was … (not including that their loyalties were suspect.)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
“the Grand Council there was a unanimous vote that Clan Wolf had to participate in this historic occasion … forcing the Wolf Clan to participate in an invasion it had fought so long to prevent was just retribution.”
“IlKhan Showers decreed that Clan Wolf would be assigned to the Beta Corridor, which ran mostly through the Rasalhague Republic,”
“The insults were unmistakable. Clan Wolf was denied the chance to operate on the flanks of the attack, a historical honour in Clan warfare, and straddled with fighting a weak opponent against whom little glory could be won in defeating.”
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maybe 'hiring' another clan to secure the route
The goal is to become first to take Terra – and thus become ilClan and ilKhan in perpetuity.
And you wish to sully this historical achievement with the knowledge that you had to ‘hire’ assistance to win as you were unable to achieve this own your own! Oh, how the mighty Clan’s warriors have fallen to the mercantile caste.
suggest looking at Huntress and when asked to allow non warriors to participate in their defence - and told categorically under no circumstances.
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The question is if the original agreement for taking Terra was only available to the initial clans that could invade were the only ones that could.
The answer is whomever can take and hold Terra first wins. So once in the great game you are in all the way!
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if the Cats or Vipers did so in the original story line. I can see the Falcons and Jaguars throwing a major fit
Diddums to Falcons or Jaguars … if either the Cats or Vipers made it first they have no choice but recognise them as ilClan and ilKhan!
Quote:
Say the home clans got tired of the invasion clans 'taking their time' so decide to get involved in the race
During the actual invasion to Terra.
Sorry but if they did they are spitting on the traditions as laid down by Kerensky. This is quite unthinkable – they would be no better than the Wolverines if they undertook such an action!
Only way in is if the ilKhan allows all clans to participate and it is also ratified by the council.
After the capture of Terra, well that is another matter entirely ...
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
Includes the following, “The initial goal was to conquer sufficient worlds as to serve as a springboard for the conquest of the Inner Sphere as a whole.”
To achieve this lofty goal would require the resources of ALL the Clans. Hence post determination of ilClan and ilKhan all clans would from that point on be allowed to undertake a second invasion with the purpose of conquering their own personal fiefdoms from the remnants of the Great Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/04/22 12:11 AM
70.118.172.64
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I see the Bears doing what they did in the canon TL. They bring their holdings and people to the worlds they have taken in their corridor, set up their new Dominion, and go from there.
If we are going with the Vipers and Cats coming in, then some of the other Home Clans might try and do things on their own, which in turn might get violent actions of reprimand from one or more of the Invading Clans. Remember, they will still honor Clan doctrine and law and all that.
I believe that once he conquers and holds the planet, he is ilKhan, the Wolves, and the ilClan. By Clan Law, all that Nicholas put in place.
The kamikaze run by Tryia is essential, and I think we need that event for sure, and the Turtle Bay event can stay. The truce is gone, though. It never made much sense to start with. We are on a good path to having an interesting chat on things. I like the discourse of things. We have had several paths and ideas. Each is given attention, and we can even come back to some to see if they fit or not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 01:04 AM
45.51.181.83
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So what about Phelan? His being on the Dire Wolf bridge was what saved Ulric. Will that still happen? Or will someone else pull Ulric off?
Or will something happen that is entirely different?
Having more the one path is fine. I like the idea that there are multiple things that can happen, with some circumstances producing more then one result, or more then one way to proceed. It is also possible someone other then Tyra does the run. It could be a near miss, which sends shrapnel through out the bridge the does in Leo, without breaching the armor.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 01:26 AM
45.51.181.83
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And yes if the Wolves (or Jade Wolves) do not have an adequate transport system I can see other clans using the Sharks as their cats paw to slow things down to gain a competitive advantage.
Nothing here suggests the Falcons teaming up with the wolves to take Terra. Not that those two clans would ever team up, which given all the crap spewed about the mongol way of the clans.
As in normal fashion, you leave out the information that changes the entire context of a statement. Using data received and/or stolen from the Word of Blake and Free Worlds League respectively, the Capellan Confederation further upgraded the Necromo Shipyards to the point where WarShips could be constructed completely on site.
You specifically left out the part where they said the data received and/or stolen from Word of Blake and the Free Worlds League. Since WOB did not break off from Comstar in this discussion, the ship yards would not have been upgraded.
Also the lie of saying the jump drive was the issue trying to use canon material, and being told it was the transit drive, then adding in that this thread does not have to follow canon, while leaving out the fact you were told to leave, which means we do not want your input into this, seems to have you continuing to put in your vision where it is not wanted. As being told to leave, that should tell you it is not asked for either.
Hire assistance also means having to purchase supplies from another due to the inability to plan out what you need doesn't fall under shame, the having someone that wasn't even allowed to participate to gain a few worlds in the IS isn't.
So the Sharks could have won the position by landing on Terra, and seizing it, even though they were not part of the active clans doing so? Any home clan could rush in and steal the position?
Again, more stupid crap of not thinking before posting things. No one said they were waiting until they got to Terra. They could well have started their runs as soon as the wolves started pulling away from the others. So about 2nd wave. Again the assumptions show logic is not your strong point.
Now so this is absolutely clear. LEAVE THE THREAD. You pointless crap just shows you are here to just argue.
Maybe NO REQUIEMS ALLOW has to be posted on the thread.
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Requiem
08/04/22 06:43 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
They bring their holdings and people to the worlds they have taken in their corridor
Problem – Leviathan Heavy Transport (introduced 3055) Crew – 250,000 passengers.
How many Leviathan ships are available, and how many round trips will be required to ensure a sufficient complement of freeborn are transported? Though there remains one major problem. The comparable population of the IS to that of the Clans, when multiple (a great number in fact) worlds within the IS have a greater population than that of individual Clans there remains the issue of how an individual Clan can maintain order over these vast number of IS worlds becomes questionable.
Quote:
some of the other Home Clans might try and do things on their own
Within reason – as stated above.
Quote:
Tyra Miraborg – options
Multiple Options are available …
1. The Capitol World of the Free Rasalhague Republic did not fall – and Tyra remains on the capitol world with the Prince as a member of his honour guard. Phelan could also escape at this time and make his way to Tyra if you wanted to add some sappy love story …
2. The Battle of Radstadt did or didn’t occur, in which she did kill or another individual killed the ilKhan etc.
3. ilKhan Leo Showers did or didn’t die.
4. Khan Ulric Kerensky did or didn’t die at the same time where Phelan did or didn’t die at the same time attempting to save Ulric or Leo.
There could be many other options …
Quote:
Nothing here suggests the Falcons teaming up with the wolves to take Terra.
Unless you understand the Clan terminology of “Teaming Up” – Trial of Absorption – both sides recognise that they are running out of warriors / resources however if they can take over their neighbours resources they can continue, so in dire circumstances why not go for broke start with reaving and Trails of Possession, and if it is going your way why not (be a little underhanded) and call it a Trial of Absorption and just take everything … a very Mongol way of thinking?
Quote:
Feng Huang
Are you therefore intimidating that the WoB supplied the information to both the FWL and then to the CC to allow them both to produce transit (K-F) drives?
Also since the WoB did break from ComStar and started building within the FWL their shipyards would most definitely be upgraded.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mjolnir
“The Mjolnir's interplanetary drives are also of note, not only for their size but how the LAAF managed to produce them in the first place. Since the early 3050s, ComStar provided WarShip engines to the Great Houses, but when the Word of Blake took Terra they stopped the practice. This sent the Houses madly searching for an alternate source. The Alliance, long an industrial powerhouse, simply commissioned the factories within its borders to make the engines piecemeal. Although difficult to coordinate and incredibly expensive, the process worked and allowed the Mjolnir's engines to reach final assembly at the Port Sydney Yards orbiting Alarion.”
Once again we need to wonder why a Great House would rely on ComStar for a critical Warship part when just recently they have been engaged in a shadow war with them? Especially when you can see ComStar playing games with the Federated Suns’ Fox and Avalon – which were due to be completed in 3050.
Unrealistic writing will only get you so far!
Can we please have a re-write sooner rather than later as this black hole of reasoning is deplorable!
And again, this is a what if scenario – not an let’s adhere to all things canon scenario.
Quote:
Hire assistance also means having to purchase supplies
So when you go food shopping your hiring assistance – from whom? All that is happening with the transport of supplies is logistical goods transport – accumulating supplies into a single warehouse then transporting the bulk goods to their client’s warehouse.
Assistance is usually a representation of a physical responsibility – performing physical tasks.
Quote:
Any home clan could rush in and steal the position?
Problems with comprehension of reading?
Only those clans allowed to be in IS can rush for Terra to become ilClan.
Quote:
They could well have started their runs as soon as the wolves started pulling away from the others.
And like good little boys and girls they will have to sit outside (in the deep periphery – sitting quietly) until the ilKhan has been determined and then, and only then, will good little Clan be allowed to come into the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/04/22 10:11 AM
70.118.172.64
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How about you block him? That way, you don't see his post.
I think Phelan would still be there, and Ulric would still trust him at this point. So he would be there to save Ulric. As for the rest, they had enough transports to do what they felt was needed. Anything could be brought in from the home worlds as part of planned reinforcements or contracted from the Sharks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 12:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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Does that mean Phelan takes Gunzburg by himself? That would put a heavy suspicion on him once he does escape.
Now with this, he could well be feeding at least the Kells with tech data from the clans. I could see Natasha having some sort of secret means of contacting the Dragoons, and possibly the Hounds. This could happen after Focht talks with him as well.
Then he could be 'cleared' with some story that could echo the truth. He risked his life to gain intel on the clans, without saying anything about the way he got most of it to the LC/IS. Simply saying he was debriefed for it all, and not a stream when he was 'captive'.
A question has come up. Would the Wolves start narrowing their corridor in order to focus on getting to Terra quicker?
Or would they spread out some, hoping to force the others to go further out in order to get to Terra? I know some of this will be decided with what troops are available. As the Wolves are not above using the PGCs in an offensive posture, that could be the way they could get more reinforcements into the fight.
Also, is there any thoughts on them ramping up sibko or even freeborn training before the invasion was finalized? Such as the Wolf khans realized the others were going to try something? Maybe even tie it into the scientists creation of the warriors that were not trained by the military? Instead of the Falcons gaining them, the Wolves get them?
I think that would be a nice twist to the what if.
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Karagin
08/04/22 12:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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If he doesn't outright escape, he could do a double agent thing and send a message to his father or one that goes to a friend of a friend thing. I am sure Natasha had ways of contacting Jamie if she needed to, so Phelan could find a way to get info to his father.
I think they would keep it wide enough to have a buffer but narrow enough to get them to Terra without too many extra stops. I don't see them needing more warriors at this point. Losses haven't been that high, not for the Wolves. Some of the other Clans might require more, and they might be ramping up their sibkos and cutting corners, but that is within their Clans, so not much can be done. Other than the Grand Council vote.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 04:34 PM
45.51.181.83
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So you think as they hit the DC/FC border below the FRR, it would not be that bad in damages done to them?
Given that area would be more fortified and have more units, I would think the wolves would suffer more damages.
Maybe I missed something.
It also makes the question of if Comstar will stop helping the clans and turn on them, when they get that close.
I would think the Wolves would be alone in that general area, as they were pushing far harder then the other clans.
So initially, they would be dealing with things all by themselves.
This is not saying the other clans weren't trying to catch up, but I can see them having to put that many more troops into fights, causing their garrisons to be that much weaker, and having to deal with counter attacks, possibly taking worlds back. As I don't have the numbers for the Cats or Vipers, I can't give an estimate on what they could do to counter the houses, or if they would just turn on the Falcons/Jaguars and hit their worlds.
This may come from the Cats/Vipers wanting revenge for being in the second position for invasion. It might also come from losing to them over the years.
Another possible issue is the bombarding of Turtle Bay. Though that wouldn't be directed towards the Falcons.
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Karagin
08/04/22 06:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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They would hit it, but they would not be going after the most robust defended worlds. Ulric wasn't one to play that game. He would only attack heavy-defened worlds if he had no choice. We would see pin-point attacks by passing the fortress worlds, and these areas would not be that defended since both the FC/DC would still need to blunt the other Clans. What good is stopping the drive on Terra if Luithen falls or Thakrad?
Now we might see ComStar digging in on many worlds and doing all they can to slow the advance of the Wolves. It might seem Focht goes hat in hand to the Dragoons begging for help. I would pay to see that happen in a story.
As the fighting gets more intense, I could see a Falcon commander ordering an orbital bombardment as needed. Which would be seen as part of the bidding and counter bidding. So no issue for the Clans. The Inner Sphere is going to find that they will need mulitple plans to deal with the Clans,.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/04/22 08:00 PM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
Phelan Patrick Kell
Stockholm Syndrome Candidate – Where he has developed a strong positive feeling (to the point of familial ties) toward his captors over time.
Possible “Father Complex” – strong unconscious impulse to recognise Ulric as his substitute father figure due to Morgan Kell being a distant father figure – as Colonel of the Kell Hounds and Grand Duke of Arc Royal Morgan can be seen as a distant father figure who had little time for a young Phelan, hence the feelings of inadequacy towards his true father. Therefore, when Ulric provided the young Phelan with ‘attention’ he began seeing him as his substitute father figure.
Any action, therefore, towards betraying his new home and family needs to be explained carefully.
Also if he does decide to become a spy/saboteur for the Lyran State he will need a handler who can run him as well as a means of transferring any information he obtains out from the newly captured Clan Wolf space and back into Lyran Space.
So how is this going to be achieved? … Options via … (need a good backstory as to why they are helping Phelan)
1. Khan Ulric Kerensky – As the head of the Warden faction he is preparing a war against the Crusader faction and will require allies to not only kill of the Crusaders within the IS, but also to save the people within the Kerensky Cluster.
2. Natasha Kerensky – Defector from Wolf’s Dragoons back to Clan Wolf as her identity remains that of a truborn Wolf? (Problem here is that in 3050 she is 77yrs – solhama candidate and not a warrior candidate).
Therefore making her a grandmother figure to Phelan?
Backstory – her allegiance has never waned from Wolf’s Dragoons – she is a spy with a pre-arranged communication system (advanced black box) to her handlers within the IS to relay information back to Jamie Wolf. Upon arrival with the Clans she is delighted to find a co-conspirator (Phelan) to assist with her world in sabotaging the Clans invasion of the IS.
3. Anastasius Focht – Precenor Martial Com Guards – As envoy to the Clans on arrival with Dire Wolf Clan Nova Cat’s Oathmaster Winters attacked him as he represented the doom of the Clans in her visions … thus many will be incredibly wary of him, thus making any transfer of knowledge from Phelan to him incredibly difficult to achieve without the assistance of Ulric Kerensky.
4. Another IS Bondsman – LIC Agent – again difficult to consider, will need an adequate back story as well as a means of getting information back into the IS.
Also – how far do you want to go along with the canon story until you decided to implement your what if Alt. Universe) story? As what happens if you want to retain the Clan Wolf in Exile with Khan Phelan Ward? Or is this part of the Warden Vs. Crusader Clan Civil War within the IS scenario?
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gunzburg
Really? Phelan convinced General Miraborg to surrender without a shot being fired? You do realise that this is cowardice in the face of the enemy?
Even though he knew he was going to loose there could be alternative reasons of why you are entering a forlorn hope battle – delaying tactic to allow for allies to prepare a trap on a subsequent world; Clan depletion report – sell yourself as dearly as possible and kill / inflict as much damage as possible upon Clan Wolf.
In all reality I’m not surprised Tor Miraborg didn’t kill Phelan out of hand due to the death of his daughter – as it was Phelan’s fault that she was transferred and subsequently died in a kamikaze attack upon the Dire Wolf.
Or, by this stage is this going to change due to your what if (Alt. history) scenario?
- Is Tyra alive and on world at the same time? – conflicting Phelan’s loyalties due to a past love;
- Is this world now part of the Kesselring (WW2) line used as part of the attrition warfare strategy;
- Is it going to be a part of the Warden / Crusader Civil War; or
- Other – as part of your own what if (Alt. History) Campaign.
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Would the Wolves start narrowing their corridor in order to focus on getting to Terra quicker?
Or would they spread out?
Good to see your reading my posts and incorporating them into the discussion.
Simple answer is given the level of military units available (even with PGCs) all Clans will run out of forces due to garrison requirements long before they reach Terra. They will therefore need to adopt a strategy that will enable them to add additional forces to the front lines, from their Planetary Garrisons, in order to reach Terra – or adopt another strategy to acquire these available forces.
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As the Wolves are not above using the PGCs in an offensive posture, that could be the way they could get more reinforcements into the fight.
First, as stated many times PGCs are not allowed in the fight as they are NOT part of the original bid.
Second, if you actually read Clan’s TO&E Toumans prior to Operation Revival you will see that their PGCs are extremely minimal in number and will only free up a very small number of units.
Third, PGCs role on the Clan Home Worlds was as a battlefield cleaning service – after the Trial was concluded the PGCs were sent in as a Mech recovery and transport – to make the area clean again for the next circle of equals Mech Trial. Thus their ability to garrison anything is highly questionable.
Fourth, PGCs are only allowed substandard equipment compared to front line units.
And Lastly, any serious and immediate increase in PGCs will require a massive freeborn warrior recruitment drive together with a very short bootcamp. You’re going to end up with a vast quantity of substandard warriors who you would use to replace experienced warriors within garrisons – and this in turn will create opportunities for your Clans enemies to strike at these garrisons – to prove the inadequacy of your warriors – Trial of Possession (either Logistics stored on the world or the entire world itself).
Either way you’re opening many worlds, and possibly logistics / routes to capture / destruction – which will not look good from the point of view of your Khan / other Clan’s Khans who will just openly ridicule your Clan for taking such a desperate tactic.
As for the scientists – as stated previously – any revolt by them will require the absence of the majority of Clan Warriors as well as the establishment of a highly trained, disciplined and equipped army / navy / airforce to combat the Clan Warriors upon their return – or a genetic implant that will just kill off all Trueborn when exposed to an inert gas to Freeborn.
Ramping up sibkos – how is this achieved without reducing the current quality standards hat end in a Trial of Position? Also, how are existing Clan warriors going to treat these ‘substandard’ Trueborn warriors? One step above freeborn?
You have to remember this is a stratified society based upon racial DNA purity.
Also, no Grand Council Vote required – this is an internal decision within a single Clan – however in the back of their minds many khans will be thinking “Dinner Time” – Trial of Absorption – they are a weak Clan!
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So you think as they hit the DC/FC border below the FRR, it would not be that bad in damages done to them?
Depends on the strategies implemented
Go from Elastic Defence to Kesselring’s prepared defensive lines and they will knock the Clans for a 6 when it comes to attrition warfare.
And no you didn’t miss something – though TPTB certainly did.
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ComStar
Once they realise that Terra is their objective ComStar should break all contact and begin open hostility. Remember what Rommel said about the longest day – they have to keep them at the water’s edge – on n this case as far from Terra as possible.
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I would think the Wolves would be alone …
Then also expect them to be chewed up and spat out …
The loss of the Cats / Vipers was a foolish move on the part of TPTB – but this is nothing new they constantly destroy the best units and leave nothing but dross …
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Another possible issue is the bombarding of Turtle Bay. Though that wouldn't be directed towards the Falcons.
Turtle Bay – so a return to the Jihad era with nukes?
Not directed towheads the Falcons – and what about that incident when a Falcon Warship threatened to destroy the world if the Lyran unit did not quit?
Sorry but it is Jihad on both sides of the pond as they would say!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/22 09:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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I can see world skipping might cause the realms to have to spread out their troops to try and cover them all.
Or the clans would have to double jump over some areas, leaving gaps in their advance.
Over all, the realms are not going to be as concerned if another realms capital falls. But the general lack of numbers available to the clans is an issue. There is a point, where the flanking clans are going to have to ignore Luthien and Tharkad in order to try and stop the Wolves. Without additional clans or more reinforcements, I don't see them being able to deal with those worlds and still push forward.
And yes, I do understand the capital worlds would be hit before the clans got to Terra. The big thing is the clans would have some intel on where the most weapons of war the IS has coming out to oppose them would be. Even Leo would not ignore this, even in his arrogance.
The slow down would cost him and the Falcons time, which they can't afford with the Wolves, and possibly the Bears pulling out ahead towards Terra. Moves towards them may well help the Wolves as forces defending worlds close to Terra, might be redeployed to help protect the capitals.
This is also true about those opposing the Bears as well.
Without a better supply of warriors, the flankers would be getting chewed upon, causing issues with those clans. Though this fact might be used to explain why the Wolves were able to hit Terra, without the others interfering.
I guess the pressure from the LC and DC might be what keeps the flankers from hitting the center as well. It would be too embarrassing to lose worlds to the IS, then it would be to try and hit the Wolves and Bears.
I could see Ulric using this to keep the others focused on the flanks, with subtle jabs in a few speeches to the home worlds. Interesting how this sort of politics could be used to help the two middle clans a lot.
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Karagin
08/04/22 10:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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Think about this if the Falcons can take Thakrad and then push on to Terra, that is like a major coup, but even with the Wolves taking Terra, the Falcons holding a chunk of the LC worlds and their former capital will play big for them later on. Same for the Jaguars with the DC.
I think we won't see the Houses working together that much, even with the Dragoons and ComStar pushing for it. Once things start to crash home, the FC and DC will look after their own more than working together. Same for the FWL.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/05/22 02:03 AM
45.51.181.83
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Once Terra is taken, I would think that open season would happen on all the clan taken worlds. The thing that stops me from saying all worlds, is the agreement for taking Terra. Given they say into perpetuity, that makes it sound like Terra is immune to the standard clan trials. It may well be the new Strana Mechty with all clans having some lands there, but no fighting on it. I know that sounds backwards with how the clans operate, but something tells me they can not challenge it.
Well no fights except for what the Grand Council puts up. Things like the trials for very important things, like the invasion trails were.
Granted, might makes right, so someone will try.
This also questions how the clans will deal with this. Will all the clans be coming into the IS?
I honestly think so. The invasion was to see who had the chance to become Ilclan, not to prevent the entire clans return to the IS.
Will only the invasion clans be allowed in the IS to take more worlds?
I think this is incorrect. It goes against the entire crusader thinking. The clans would return to the IS and establish a new SL. Nothing in that says only a few would. Granted, those that won have the option to try and change that concept, but I think that would backfire.
Taking a capital world would bring honor to the clan that does, but given the resources on them, I would think several other worlds would be more likely to be a prize. Hesperus system being the main one that comes to mind.
A few others with large war factories comes to mind.
Taking of Terra does not necessarily means the clans take over the entire IS. The story could go along with retaking lost worlds from the clans. Even if the Wolves stay on Terra, this does not mean the end of the IS.
The formation of the TH would be the first stage, which might also be the only stage the clans could do for a while. But we will have to see what comes up.
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Requiem
08/05/22 02:45 AM
1.147.88.67
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the clans would have to double jump over some areas, leaving gaps in their advance.
Sorry but this is quite impossible.
Being of ‘Mongol’ origin every Clan has no choice but to engage the enemy once found in front of them. Less their Clan will be seen as week by the other Clans’ Khans and will be ridiculed for their un-Clan like behaviour.
The clans have a real issue when it comes to ‘demonstrating their superiority’ - at all times - to everyone in their orbit, friend and foe alike.
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… the realms are not going to be as concerned if another realm’s capital falls …
May I ask then why the Kell Hounds and Wolf Dragoons were on Luthien, the capital of the Draconis Combine, when they cam under attack by the Cats and the Jaguars?
The defence of Rasalhague could have been a culminating event within the Inner Sphere – the formation of the Star League once more – unfortunately TPTB lost a real gem of a situation … this world could have open the writers to new paths – though perfect for the what if (Alt. Universe) scenario.
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going to have to ignore Luthien and Tharkad
Tharkad - https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/61/Lc-3052.png?timestamp=20100529215848
Too far distant from any of the invasion corridors – would be a waste of resources and time to even consider such an expedition – That is the race for Terra is too important to go swanning off to attack Tharkad.
Luthien - https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/9/98/D...=20151116235144
In compassion Luthien is right on top of the border – thus making it a prime attack target as well as, for the successful Clan, a source of pride and honour for any successful Clan – Similar to a successful hunting trophy that is placed on the wall.
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Without a better supply of warriors, the flankers would be getting chewed upon, causing issues with those clans.
Blind Freddy can see that when you bunch up the Clans into a single invasion corridor where the wolves go straight through the FRR the Wolves will have it easy and by consequence they have the ability to progress faster than those on the flanks.
Thus there should be a means to make the invasion more equitable … i.e. the Wolves have to conquer more worlds before they are allowed to progress – where as those on the flanks are allowed to conquer less worlds before progressing …
If you want to keep the idea of a race to Terra, with no interference, then I would have suggested … The only other means of ensuring an adequate invasion race to Terra is to split the invasion corridors – if you place 360 degree circle over the inner sphere and 0 / 360 is at the top of the page
45 degrees – Jaguars – through the centre of the DC
90 degrees – Bears – along the DC / FS Border
270 degrees – Wolves – along the FWL / LC Border
315 degrees – Falcons – through the centre of the LC
This will also leave the FRR open in the event that the Cats / Vipers are allowed in – even though they start late by going through an easier opponent this handicap can be seen as a fair trade off …
The idea of keeping a centralized invasion corridor, in my opinion, should have been ditched from word one – as well as the majority of the TPB’s favouritism towards the Clans! But by scattering the Clans you will now have to actually do some work as each Clan is on its own.
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Interesting how this sort of politics could be used to help the two middle clans a lot.
Interesting how the flank Clans Khans can also provide speaches – who by their position are reaping greater honour than that of the middle Clans –to deride the inadequacies of the middle clans who’s only real means of getting ahead is through the hard work of the flank clans!
i.e. they are taking it easy as they are a week clan to begin with who’s only advantage comes from leaching off of the hard work of the stronger Clans on their flanks …
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Think about this if the Falcons can take Thakrad and then push on to Terra, that is like a major coup
Karagin – think about this for one second – it is not a major coup it is a poison chalice!
Any forces the Falcons send to Tharkad will have to remain on this world in perpetuity (If conquered) due to the constant attempts at reclaiming this world.
What this also means is that your Falcon Khan has just weakened their overall invasion corridor TO&E – thus in all reality slowing their progress to Terra (putting the objective of the invasion into second place) and causing issues as to available forces to garrison any conquered worlds – causing a major headache for their Logistics fleets in any attempt to resupply the Tharkad expeditionary fleet – and causing issues with available forces to continue the invasion to begin with (due to the garrisoning of worlds issue).
What it also does is paint a huge bulls eye on Clan Jade Falcon by Clan Wolf – who now recognise that as the Falcons are now weaker by this move they are now ripe for multiple Trials of Possession / a Trial of Absorption …
Also this could also be interpreted by the other Clans is that the Falcons have given up on Terra and have decided to swan about in the IS doing their own thing from here on out …
So in my interpretation 5 seconds after the Khan issues this order the sa-Khan demands a trial within the circle of equals for the top job …. And with the death of the former Khan, this order will be cancelled.
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holding a chunk of the LC worlds and their former capital will play big for them later on.
This should be interesting … please do elucidate ….
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I think we won't see the Houses working together that much, even with the Dragoons and ComStar pushing for it. Once things start to crash home, the FC and DC will look after their own more than working together. Same for the FWL.
Problem is history is not in favour of this – all throughout history when faced with a similar problem, divergent groups join forces to share resources and intelligence to combat the superior-evil forces …
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open season would happen on all the clan taken worlds
Er … does this mean that the Clans that remained on the Home Worlds will start a second invasion?
And yes Terra should become a second Strana Mechy -however the issue of communication should be addressed between Terra and Strana Mechy – also the issue of Garrisoning Terra should be the highest priority – as if I was Katherine I would have a reserve force within Skye (together with FWL and Com Guard and maybe even FS forces / Combine Forces) in an immediate response to retake Terra – why remember at this stage all Clans should have effectively beaten each other into a pulp to determine the winner – thus making them ripe for destruction by a quick counterattack by IS forces … plus whomever brought this force together (if successful) will be the next First Lord of Star League …
As for Trials about land on Terra – a substitute arena can be established – say on Mars.
Thus each Clan can argue over territory on Terra – with the capital permanently belonging to the IlClan and the ilKhan.
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Will all the clans be coming into the IS?
This is a given, post conquest of Terra.
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The invasion was to see who had the chance to become Ilclan, not to prevent the entire clans return to the IS.
Remember the original purpose – conquest of the entire IS – the Clans must reform these heathen barbarians who destroyed the original Star League.
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The story could go along with retaking lost worlds from the clans. Even if the Wolves stay on Terra, this does not mean the end of the IS.
Being a space opera there are multiple routes that can be taken … the rise and fall of empires – exploration to destroy the Kerensky Cluster once and for all in retaliation – establishing new empires within the space separating the Kerensky Cluster and the IS – plus many others ….
Just comes down to your imagination as to where you want the story to go …
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formation of the TH would be the first stage
As stated above – this is a given … however the issue of can they becomes the main point – also will this be achieved with just IS invasion clans or will they use the forces sent form the Clan Home worlds needs to be considered first.
Just IS invasion Clans – the issue of available forces need to be considered as they are spread out and there would be few forces available to establish their new TH.
With the addition of Clans Home World forces the establishment of a new Clan TH should be considered an achievable goal – though the size will be dependent upon the forces of the new SLDF and how well they are governed.
i.e. a new story arc can be generated from this to replace the Jihad era … could be considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/05/22 10:39 AM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Inner Sphere Houses understanding things about Terra being important to them until after its fall. They might go after the worlds, but I doubt they will significantly change their tactics or long-term plans.
The other Clans might, or they might not, try to challenge the Wolves for some worlds, but they will be hard-pressed to with the fighting against the Combine and what is left of the Fed-Com. Add in new fronts of the FWL and CapCon..
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/05/22 12:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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I agree that Terra is not the important 'holy grail' for them. The FC would be concerned about losing physical contact with both sides, but as long as they have coms, and a way to get back and forth, it isn't the end for them.
The DC would have issues due to not being able to get supplies from the FWL unless the FC authorizes a trade route for them to use. A question of if the FWL would continue to supply the DC, as they might well be written off as a lost cause.
Now that might change if Comstar can convince the IS that the entire HPG network is tied to Terra's main hub, and won't function without it. Otherwise, I don't see the houses being that anxious to help out Comstar.
In fact, Comstar might want to avoid the houses being on Terra without their complete control. Imaging what would happen if the houses found out what happened with Comstar aiding the clans with military intel.
Granted, a quick change in the way the clans do invasion would change as soon as Comstar turns on the clans for their ultimate prize of Terra.
As poorly hinted at in previous posts, I don't see the clans arriving on Terra at the same time. I can see the Wolves being there a while before the Jaguars and Falcons, along with the Vipers and Cats being caught up trying to chew thru the flanks. The Bears are more likely to be second, but just how much later then the Wolves is a big question. Would the Wolves have a few weeks, months, maybe even a year before anyone else gets there to attack Terra?
I don't see the agreement saying the clans sitting poised to attack Terra would have to wait for any real length of time because the others couldn't get there in a timely manor.
Yet if they did have to wait, this would cause even more losses on the others, as they would have to push that much harder to get there, or else look weak in the eyes of the rest of the clans. Given the fact they think the IS was weak, there would be no excuse, given the main 2, the Jaguars and Falcons, said they would not be slowed by the IS, would really destroy the credibility of the khans of those clans. Adding in the Cats and Vipers would make them look weak to begin with, but having the 4 of them slowed and the Wolves waiting at Terra for them may well remove them from contention.
This should also weaken their hold on worlds taken, so the IS could actually take worlds back as well as severely weaken the flankers.
No matter what, I don't see the FRR ever becoming a nation again.
And before anyone points it out, the Wolves would have some nasty fights to get there. The issue is the threat to the DC/LC capitals from the flankers. Even if there is no intention to take them, the threat will draw off forces and even cause counter attacks to remove the clans from being close to those worlds.
Even if the houses did see Terra as being important, would Comstar even allow them to land and try to defend Terra? The amount of tech and factories there that the houses didn't know about would show the lie they were saying throughout the entire time of the succession wars. Maybe even the houses finding out everything they need to know to run and even build new HPGs.
We do know the canon story has Walterly thinking she was all powerful. Would she believe Comstar can go it alone in defense of Terra and win in this what if?
Which brings up the question. Does Comstar call in all of their forces to defend Terra, and possibly a few worlds around it to prevent the invasion in the first place? Or do they leave a chunk of them guarding the HPG network as their lie suggest was why they armed themselves?
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Karagin
08/05/22 01:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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Okay, ComStar, I doubt they will convince anyone but the FWL and CapCon of the idea that interstellar comms needs Terra to work. Both the DC and the FC have the fax machine things. (Which, by the way, would still be working with the HPG blackout, right? Oh snap, did TPTB forget about those things?) So ComStar might be hard-pressed to sell that story.
ComStar would leave some forces to watch the HPGs, but I would see them pull back their troops to worlds right in the path of the Wolves and planets/systems around Terra. They might even declare a smaller Protectorate of worlds within a single jump from Terra a buffer and put all their forces on those. That would cause more issues for the Houses and add a wild card in for the Clans.
Terra is ComStar's holy thing, I don't buy their cover stories about things being so bad and the Sol System being so in ruins. That would make the whole thing ripe for one of the House to have moved in since a pissed of population, etc...so no ComStar would not allow House units on Terra.
The Khans of the Falcons and Jaguars are already in a hot seat, they have run into more than they can handle, though they won't ever say that, and their mauling is showing it. We saw that in canon, and it would be doubly so here in this, as they spread out further into the flanks of their corridors.
The FRR is a speed bump, it's an annoying one, but it's just there long enough to give the Bears and Wolves some combat to wet the ears of the new sibkos.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/05/22 01:47 PM
70.118.172.64
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If the Wolves get their first and beat ComStar, the other Clans showing up don't mean anything. The Wolves have it. They will make sure the other Clans know it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/05/22 02:34 PM
1.147.88.67
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I don't see the Inner Sphere Houses understanding things about Terra being important to them until after its fall.
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Terra is not the important 'holy grail' for them
Every great house has only dreamt for the past 270 odd years of entering the Terran System as the Sole Ruler of humanity, reclaiming the Cradle of Humanity as the one rightful capital world for all humanity. So no, the Great Houses have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever as its political and spiritual significance - as to what it means to rule from this one single unique world throughout all known space.
(Heavy on the satire – if not recognised).
There are certain cities and land on Terra, by their very name and location invoke power to certain groups within humanity.
This one world must remain inviolate from war and the warlords throughout the Inner Sphere – and to the infamy of their name those that bring war to this world, may their destruction be quick and without mercy!
For the Clans and the Great Houses is the culmination of a dream – a dream that the Clans (and WoB) do not and will never be worthy of achieving, to grant them control of Terra demonstrates a vast lack of understanding as to what they have done.
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they will be hard-pressed with the fighting against …
They (the Clans) will give it their all to try to establish the one true Kerensky Theocracy for all humanity throughout the stars – Under their genetically pure leadership!
For their society is the one true form that will bring peace to humanity, within the bondage of their caste system – where all dreams of a better life go to die!
(Heavy on the satire again – if not recognised).
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Fate
The newly formed Star League and its SLDF will view this conquest as the desecration of the one true Temple of humanity – Fools all, they have now condemned Terra to the fate as prophesised by Jonathan Cameron – who requested aid from Commanding General Rebecca Fetladral and then her aide Aleksandr Kerensky to save the Star League and Terra from his nightmarish visions. And who’s progeny will now be the instrument of fate.
The Terran system will burn!
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No matter what, I don't see the FRR ever becoming a nation again.
How long did they have to live under the yoke of the Draconis Combine? Killing off a collective dream is not so easy – they achieved their dream once they can do it again …
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the threat will draw off forces and even cause counter attacks to remove the clans from being close to those worlds.
Suggest looking at a map – one is a vast distance from the invasion corridor whereas the other right on top of it.
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would Comstar even allow them to land and try to defend Terra?
Really? How else is Terra going to be liberated? Only the combined forces of the New SLDF have any hope of liberating this system from the Tyranny that has befallen it.
OR /- How goes the 5 hidden worlds progression in creating the new Com Guard Templar Army? And does Walterly know of this? Thus, her belief in being “all powerful” had a hint of truth to it.
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Does Comstar call in all of their forces to defend Terra
Depends in who is in command and the size of the available forces as well as the size of the Clan forces - as if Anastasius Focht is in command who knows what he may do?
He may even declare it an open system in the hope of preserving it from the vagaries of war.
Though once in the Terran System it will be the devil to pay to get them out!
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ComStar
No one is going to believe a half-baked idea that for the HPG grid to work Terra must be ‘free’ and under the control of ComStar.
At this point ComStar is in the position of becoming a government in exile (same as the FRR).
Their options shrink by the day to stand and fight (which will require assistance from all the Great Houses) or give ground in the hope of a better tomorrow.
No declaration of a protectorate will stop the coming of the clan invasion fleets …
So, hopefully, with Anastasius Focht is in command logic will prevail as to the disposition of forces in any upcoming battles …
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Terra is ComStar's holy thing
It is also a Clans holy thing!
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The Clans
As this is a what if story (Alt. Universe)
It is up to the writer to make the final choice as to the Clan that gets there first and under what circumstances and in what numbers.
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The FRR is a speed bump, it's an annoying one, but it's just there long enough to give the Bears and Wolves some combat to wet the ears of the new sibkos.
Only if you believe that all the Great Houses went it alone, no Star League / SLDF was established, and the DC didn’t initiate a nuclear war upon the Jaguars for Turtle Bay.
As for new sibkos to win this war – they are 25 years into the future if you increase the number of sibkos now – or you reduce the intensity of the training program to allow mass sub-standard warriors to join the ranks.
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The Wolves have it.
Can someone supply the answer why everyone is so fixated in allowing the Wolves to Win?
Also why not initiate a Trial of Refusal or even a Trial of Absorption upon the wolves to assume the title?
Many may consider this a viable option – especially if they say the wolves cheated.
So what happens next? Inter Clan war at the eleventh hour?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/22 04:33 PM
45.51.181.83
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I was under the impression that the TH/SL would make the coms hub on Terra the master control of the HPG network. Not sure why, but given the power they would give up if all knew this wasn't true, just doesn't sound like something an overlord government would do.
By the time the coms black out happened in the RoTS timeline, I would think all the houses had copies of the black box. I would think the DC would give examples or even real copies to the FWL and CC to make sure they were always able to communicate with each other. Which also has a question in the what if, and canon. Why doesn't the clans have better systems or improved upon the HPG in general?
The entire garbage of increased range during the Jihad, yet not even a single light year more out of the advanced clans.
The use of mobile HPGs would be something the clans would have thought of as well. They could not be sure until Walterly gave the ok, that they would have someone helping them in the IS. If Comstar was against them from the start, the entire network could be shut down in the worlds they are at. Yes, the clan techs could get it back on line, but as I said before, there would be more coding in the systems to allow Comstar to shut them down, or send copies of things sent on the network to Terra.
The push for the other clans to have forces ready incase a bid for worlds comes up, can not be discounted. The Bears were forced to keep some on hand when their reached Rassalhauge. I can see the Wolves and Bears doing this to the other clans. This alone, would force the Falcons/Jaguars/Vipers/Cats to have to jump thru systems they did not control if safecon isn't granted thru the Bears/Wolves. Or force the clans to break their bids by having to bring in more forces just to keep up with the deepest pushes by the Bears/Wolves.
The eccellaration of the push would put even more destruction on the flanking clans. Either thin out their zones to keep up, or lose more forces having to push when they are not able to.
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Requiem
08/05/22 07:49 PM
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Terra the master control of the HPG network
How, when it is a requirement to aim the dish at the recipient you want to send a package of information to – and the recipient has to aim their dish to collect the information? For a certain percentage of time, therefore, it is not even connected – each HPG site should be considered an island unto itself.
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I would think all the houses had copies of the black box
In my opinion – only if it was provided via the new SLDF agreement. Otherwise, each House would have had to “acquire” a copy and then reverse engineer it. And we all know TPTBs policy in reverse engineering (or even building) anything of importance within the IS during the Clan invasion period.
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Why doesn't the clans have better systems or improved upon the HPG in general?
Consider how their HPGs are used …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chatterweb
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans#Media
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator#HPG_Types
The Super HPG, developed by WoB, have a major problem – “generates localized hyperspace distortions that overpower and garble both conventional radio wave and standard HPG transmissions.”
Also the only time a device such as this should be required is for the Clan Invasion – Again the problem would be which Clan would be allowed to research, design and manufacture such a device (to be installed just out of the Kerensky Cluster and hopefully with a receiving station just outside the IS periphery, so as to not interfere with the communication of warrior units operating within the IS invasion corridors.)
Thus multiple trials, again, to see who will receive this honour? Or are we just going to say that each clan will have their own, which in turn, when used at the same time, should garble theirs and their rival Clans transmissions as operating two or more in such close proximity should create havoc for all involved.
So the real problem is before it can be made you will first require government oversight – and like all government projects this will take time to go through all the red tape.
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The use of mobile HPGs
They should be standard with every Clan / IS warships, certain Clan communication Jump-ships, as well as certain Clan security space stations, such as those along the exodus road, and those scattered in certain systems to prevent another inner sphere ComStar jump-ship incursion into Clan Space.
For IS forces, however, only black boxes would be available.
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The push for the other clans to have forces ready …
Maintaining a reserve force to acquire worlds is a positive policy – however, remember Clan tradition when a world is requested by two or more clans at the same time – such as Luthien. Every Clan has their own issues when it comes to selecting target worlds – best to select those that are actually within their invasion corridor – lest your Clans going to end up with logistics issues.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/22 08:14 PM
45.51.181.83
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I had an idea come up that might be a something to think about with a different branch.
What if Phelan and Focht decided to help Ulric in his plans and convinced Ulric to destroy the crusaders once and for all? Starting with the Jaguars and Falcons. Set up ambush after ambush, or maybe just have some intel leak on weak garrisons along the paths of those clans?
They could trick Ulric with just hurting the others, keeping them out of the wardens hair, or showing the crusaders up in the invasion by having them beg for reinforcements? Not letting on that the end result would be a full annihilation of the two flankers.
This does lead to needing to know when Comstar decides to turn on the clans, or maybe stay neutral. Removing Watlerly would remove the threat to remaining in charge of the HPG, as it was her intention to help the clans, only to use them to bleed the houses. This could also allow Comstar to make up new 'mercs' that would be used to hit some of the clans while they were involved in real house units, leading to a clan loss. It isn't like the clans have the best intel gathering on IS actions. It wouldn't work more then a few times. But it might be enough to pull the flankers out of contention for Terra.
The issue is Comstar being left in control of the HPGs. This is something that could be worked out with Ulric, though I doubt there would be any real trust in the arraingement.
All data would be purged on who was involved, making it look like periphery mercs from the TC/MoC areas. Suggest the groups found a cache, and go from there. Looking for a big score, they came to the IS.
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Karagin
08/05/22 10:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see that working.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/06/22 03:53 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
Convincing Ulric to destroy the crusaders once and for all …
Sorry, but I believe the reverse would be considered more believable. Ulric would use Phelan to convince Focht, who would then present Ulric’s proposal to the new Star League, with his plans for the Wardens to begin a Trial of Annihilation upon all Crusaders.
From there his plans would be to engage those remaining Crusader Clans within the Kerensky Cluster, with the aim of liberating all from the brutality of the Clan System.
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When the war begins?
The good thing about this is that every SLDF + Mercenary units can be assigned a role.
Thus you would want the Crusaders spread out enough that the majority are now on garrison duty, with a reasonably large logistical network.
This would be followed by as many command assassinations as possible (as well as their Freeborn support logistics / repair structure, may also be considered) – This would also include the destruction of each Crusader’s Khan and sa-khan HQ … then followed by mass invasions i.e. a variant upon Operation Bulldog, but on a vastly larger scale.
What I would hope is that a sizeable amount of each Crusader unit survives – as I would like to have a running battle with the Crusades all the war from the Periphery back to the Clan Home Worlds.
i.e. the retreating Clans would implement an elastic defence strategy as they retreat …
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Fix the tyranny of distance
It is also my opinion that the distance to the Kerensky Cluster is too vast – time to reduce this to a more reasonable distance to enable multiple new “Countries” to be established between the Deep Periphery and the Kerensky Cluster … thus future wars will become evident.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/22 01:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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As we can vary a few things, maybe we could actually figure in vehicles and their effects on the clans.
Such as the FC and DC slowing down the flankers more then the canon version had done. This would increase the reasons why the Bears and Wolves got ahead of the rest. Such as Twycross not falling to the first clan assault on it. Weather and vehicle defenses taking their toll on the Falcon invaders. The Falcons would have to regroup and send in another wave, meaning the losses would slow them down in future attacks.
Same thing could happen in the DC. Pick a world, such as one about to be used for some war games, which comstar did not have any information on. The clans could send the Batchall just as the additional forces are in orbit about to land.
This could happen with the Bears and Wolves as well, making sure they are not given a free pass.
Then add in things like actually attacks that succeed on the flankers worlds they left for the PGCs and second line forces.
The clans main advantage is range for the most part. Damage is still greater with their weapons, but at least the IS forces getting in range and do some damage. The range where the clans can sit back and fire, while the IS can't even begin to strike back is a big issue.
In cases like this, Ulric could use this to draw away defenders from worlds he wants to hit, but letting the flankers threaten other worlds. Yes, it is pretty obvious the clans are headed to Terra, but the IS does NOT know how many forces the clans have at their command. It would be possible the IS didn't know the Wolves had as many forces as the Falcons or the Bears, so the Wolves were being 'protected' by the Falcons. This might lead to ignoring the Wolves in order to destroy the Falcons on the FC side, which the DC might think the same about the Bears and Jaguars.
The additional clans, when they enter, may reinforce this idea even more.
The Dragoons wouldn't have up to date intel on their ex clans, so they don't know what happened. This is even if the Dragoons bother with telling any of the houses, as the meeting on Outreach would not have happened.
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ghostrider
08/06/22 07:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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Just thought to make it clear, that any part of suggestions can be used. They are not all or nothing. I know some things are going off on a tangent, but others can be done in other ways.
Something like before Comstar turns on the clans, it is possible for some cooperative moves could put the Comguard in with house forces, causing the clans to start a fight with the Comguards. This is along the suggestion of setting up an ambush or two.
Comstar could do the same thing against the houses as well, if they are not going to split with the clans.
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Karagin
08/06/22 07:10 PM
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Tracking. I could see Natasha doing something like you suggest using agents of hers or Wolfnet to trick the Jaguars.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/06/22 10:18 PM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
… we could actually figure in vehicles and their effects on the clans.
Consider utilizing multiple maps – First a world map to indicate the disposition of forces throughout the entire planet - then switch to BattleSpace and BattleForce 2 for localized battles - then as contact is determined switch to BattleTech Maps – just remember to consider your artillery ranges.
I would also suggest that as every world is now an island unto itself – every worlds own military force it can manufacture and recruit from the local population be also considered – thus many high population / high tech worlds could have hundred’s of regiments at their disposal – so good luck with the Clans attacking hat meat grinder! - also this will take time to actually complete.
Though how many actually have all of these box sets?
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The clan’s main advantage is range for the most part. Damage is still greater with their weapons …
First – how long will it take for a commander to recognise this advantage and adapt accordingly – though this will require of the planet an adequate change of scenery …
Second – how long should it take for the IS to reverse engineer clan tech and have them integrated into your forces … a year, 18 months? Also if adopting my premise that small IS fleets should be dispatched to engage Clan resupply fleets and capture as many as possible … how quick could these be integrated into your forces?
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Yes, it is pretty obvious the clans are headed to Terra, but the IS does NOT know how many forces the clans have at their command.
Yes, originality was never a part of the Clans dogma – moving in a straight line to Terra … really? They have constrained themselves right from the get-go! So all the IS has to do is react accordingly …
As for determining the TO&E for each individual Clan – isn’t this why you have spy’s and reconnaissance forces to gather this information?
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The Dragoons wouldn't have up to date intel on their ex-clans, so they don't know what happened.
Utilizing the what if (Alt-universe) premise – upon Natasha Kerensky’s return couldn’t she obtain the information for the IS?
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This is even if the Dragoons bother with telling any of the houses, as the meeting on Outreach would not have happened.
Problem is if the knowledge of the origins gets out – not coming clean sooner rather than later – they could be branded as fifth column and as such traitor to the IS, and as such hunted down and killed.
So its probably wiser for them to come clean and assist the IS.
Though many will ask why they never assisted the IS since their insertion – such as technological assistance.
Thus the issue of the Dragoons really needs to be considered as to all their actions whist in the IS – and not the white wash as seen in the canon variant.
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ComStar turns on the Clans
Problem - where are the ComGuard going to be assigned? FRR? Or in the spirit of cooperative moves – will they be assigned with all three major IS Power bases.
The ComGuard has but three choices … side with the Clans … side with the IS … side with no-one and prepare the surrounding systems and Terra as a major fortress as the last bastion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/07/22 08:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see Ulric trusting ComStar, he would respect Focht, but I doubt he would have any use for the organization as a whole. Once Terra is in his hands, and his techs are running things, he would have no use for them.
Here is something to consider, the C-Bills are the standard monetary unit for the entire Inner Sphere. Even though each House have their own currency, the C-Bill will win over more and buy more than the House currency. So with Terra in the hands of the Wolves, say by 3060 ( that is a guess and one that has the Fed-Com with ComStar support and troops putting up some kind of fight on the worlds leading up to Terra), would this collapse the C-bill and hurt the economic system of the Inner Sphere?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/07/22 11:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny thing about C-bills and H-bills. In the 3025 era, the LC H-bill was worth more then the C-bill, according to the exchange rates.
But I would think the moment Comstar lost Terra, their monetary empire would become severely depressed, and possibly die out completely when they are no longer in the power position running the HPG systems gave them.
And yes. This would destroy transactions in the IS for a while. Nothing backing the C-bill would make cross border transactions almost impossible. The whole issue of what each H-bill is worth in the old books would come out with a vengeance.
The closer to the border you are, the weaker the H-bill is to deal with anyone from a different realm. Gold or something would become the standard for trade again, as some houses would not be able to provide the economic backing of what they say their H-bill is worth.
For those that don't know what an H-bill is, it standard for House Bill, or realm produced currency. I include this as some may never had even heard of the term, as only the Stoner was mentioned for money in recent history.
Oddly enough, the Kroner was mentioned in the time just before and during the clan invasion.
The DC would have to do some work as well near Terra.
But there does seem to be a slew of questions with the clans being that close to Terra. The demands and black mail of Comstar would be very nasty. If Hanse is alive, or a least those that remember Comstar basically betrayed them during the 4th and 3039 war, would want extreme payback. They may well just let Comstar bleed the clans by themselves, and focus on stopping or taking back worlds lost from the other clans.
As stated before, Terra is NOT something the other houses are desperate to control. There might be a deal to stop more assaults, but that is a long shot at best. It may well be that Terra becomes the only system the clans can protect by massive stationing of troops, and not try to expand outside of it.
I can honestly see some factions in the IS trying to nuke the world, to destroy the clans. I don't want to really go there, but it does have some logic to it.
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Karagin
08/07/22 11:21 PM
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As you said, the FC would be more worried about preventing their two halves from being cut off, so they would be focused on that. The DC would be trying to keep what they had and not get cut off from that area but might pull back if it meant shorting their frontlines for a better overall position.
Hanse should still be alive unless we are still having Romano and her son playing their crazy game, which could still happen, but that would be a bit of an adjustment since things would be moving at a different pace since there would be no Tukayyid to pull the Clans away from their primary focus and their PGCs would be doing their jobs, also at this ComStar knows the main thrust is Terra, Nothing is going to change over night.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/08/22 12:09 AM
45.51.181.83
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Given the situation of the clans being that close to Terra, would Hanse try to help the DC with defenses there, like trying to keep the clans from entering the FS area? Or do you think he would just ignore that area, trying to preserve his forces for defense in the FS or help the LC?
I can see the DC pulling back from the main thrust, and possibly trying to hit the flanks. More then a few worlds would be worth hitting, as they do contain some manufacturing. And a few would be logical bases of operations for the clans. Maybe even striking the clans in the periphery, trying to cut off supplies. Not sure how much risk they would take, as jumpships and dropships would be getting a bit thin, especially if they continue to hold Wolcott. I can imagine they would have to leave the world, as the risk of trying to keep it supplied would be a huge strain.
But then this is suggesting the clans spread out, instead of trying to focus on Terra.
I guess depending on if more clans or the Cats are sent out to widen the wedge towards Terra would add pressure to the DCs options.
One thought came while typing this.
Would the DC pull out, giving the Jaguars and Bears and easier time rolling thru that area?
It would seem that would be the end result.
And with this, would the LC do the same in that general area as well? The would still have the Terran March for a while. The Skye region would take a hit near the Lyons Thumb, if I recall the area correctly.
It might be up to Comstar to garrison those worlds in order to slow down the Clans.
This is a bit touchy, as the realms would not want to be seen just giving up on worlds, yet their forces may well have to do just that.
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Karagin
08/08/22 12:12 AM
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Nuking Terra would be something the CapCon would be pushing for, they are the ones quick to go that route, but I could see some in the FWL doing the same, especially as refugees from ComStar start pouring in.
Doing that will send the Clans into a frenzy, and they would toss any rules of war as they see things out the window. It would be total war as far they were concerned. This means we would likely see some kind of Mongal Doctrine sooner rather than later. Warships would be used more to counter nukes.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/08/22 12:17 AM
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Hanse might help the DC; I don't see him wanting to fight a two-front war if he can avoid it and Sandvol can hang; Hanse won't let that crap fly with all the reasons to stop the Clans. The Combine fight can wait since it's a moot point if the Clans beat both sides into submission.
Theodore is going to do all that he can to keep the Clans dancing around, and he was quick to see their tactics and flaws; thus, he will be quick to get units out to harass and attack the flanks, which if the Cats are out, they might be the perfect way to foil both sides and cause the Clans to rethink things on that front.
The Jaguars will again find the Combine is not a soft enemy, and they will be hard pressed again, which will lend to their making mistakes and thus cause them to lose worlds.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/08/22 03:35 AM
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Quote:
I don't see Ulric trusting ComStar …
Consider the leaders of WW2 – on both sides – Winston Churchill, Joseph Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt and their opposition Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Hideki Tojo – can you see anyone trusting anyone one either side?
Needs must as the Devil Drives! And it all comes down to numbers – how many Wardens Vs. how many Crusader Clans?
So, what it comes down to is whether he can trust them in battle, if it comes to needing them as allies to defeat the Crusader faction of the Clans – in the event civil war commences within the Inner Sphere. Otherwise, you could end up with a nasty three-way war.
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would this collapse the C-bill and hurt the economic system of the Inner Sphere?
This is actually a very interesting economic question.
Even though the C-Bill is the most powerful of the reserve currencies within the IS (it is inherently worthless by itself as it cannot meet essential needs) therefore Comstar must establish its worth in another way.
Historically, currency has been backed by something else with a set value – commodities – gold, silver, even wheat and oil for example, however for the past 40 odd years (even during the great depression) this has not been in practice. Some countries are now also backing their ‘dollar etc.’ through the acquisition of shares within certain highly recommended corporations etc.
Currently the US dollar is said to be backed by complex system of security exchanges – especially those sponsored by the government – however the nitty-gritty of the entire system is (and this is where it will get very confusing unless you have undertaken an economics degree) is the US Govt essentially promises that the dollar is what they say it is – and this has been occurring for decades! Yes, it is confusing, and sounds very strange, but you are going to have to just accept it for what it is!
Also it is a reserve currency – the US dollar is held in foreign country (government-owned) banks eg Australian dollar derives some of its value based upon the amount of US dollars they hold and vice versa – and how easily this money can be converted to other currencies.
However the root of any collapse will stem from a lack of faith in the stability of the C-Bill to serve as a medium of exchange.
However at the end of the day (in my opinion) the value of the C-Bill will be dependent upon ComStar’s economy as a whole – if they can transfer its functions of the reserve bank off Terra then they should be able to stem off the worst of it – though the overall value will be dependent upon the number of functioning HPG within the network they maintain – thus as the number of HPS are taken by the Clans the value of the C-Bill should be seen to decrease in a roughly equal amount.
My opinion if the FC can remain as one entity and Terra is Taken the most powerful of the reserve currencies will shift to that of the FC sooner or later.
Otherwise there is going to mass chaos as to what any exchange rate should be if ComStar cannot hold things together!
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the LC H-bill was worth more then the C-bill
So? Consider looking at the euro-to-dollar rate fluctuations – a foreign House’s currency increasing in value does not necessarily mean that the foreign Houses economy is larger or stronger. Exchange rates are set by a variety of factors – including the amount in circulation.
The C-bill is considered to be the most stable and strong currencies within the IS Hence it is used as the reserve currency for Inter House trade and finance.
Even if Terra is taken they can still be considered a stable currency – just not as valuable due to the amount lost to the Clans – if they can hold things together.
And no this would not destroy Inter House export / import trade – they will just have to come to a new exchange rate.
Going back to the gold standard would be more prominent within the Periphery States due to the weakness of their Government.
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If Hanse is alive, or a least those that remember Comstar basically betrayed them during the 4th and 3039 war, would want extreme payback.
Yes this is true – However, and this is the rub, has the Star League been formed yet?
If it has then the Inner Sphere is stuck defending Terra.
If not, then it comes down to whom is in charge of ComStar – with the right person you could see ComStar coming out of this – though with the wrong person Terra may still survive but the power ComStar once had would evaporate in the wind with the agreements ComStar would have to make.
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Terra is NOT something the other houses are desperate to control.
Terra is a symbol and you should not ever dismiss them lightly – especially if Comstar evacuates Terra for the remaining Houses to defend it and then form a new Star League …. ComStar would be on the out looking in!
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I can honestly see some factions in the IS trying to nuke the world, to destroy the clans.
Only if they want to become the most reviled entity in all of history and be hunted down for all eternity!
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the FC would be more worried about preventing their two halves from being cut off, so they would be focused on that.
Only if the Clans get past all other lines and are able to take Terra.
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The DC would be trying to keep what they had and not get cut off …
More likely looking for an opening to strike at he soft underbelly of the Clans.
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Romano and her son playing their crazy game
Sorry but any one with any logic should come to the conclusion that the CC should no longer exist.
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their PGCs would be doing their jobs
Fist consider the PGCs of every Clan …
No Clan has PGCs in any vast numbers – thus their ability to affect the wider war, to allow units to be transferred from garrison to front line units, is minimal to none!
Second PGCs have third line troops and equipment – making them a target – which could disrupt all Clans Logistics!
So putting them in key positions could become an own-goal!
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would Hanse try to help the DC with defences there
If anyone has been paying attention – WW2 Kesselring lines should have long ago been put into effect was into the past of this invasion - to curtail the Clan advance. Also the Star League should have also been formed at the same time as these Kesselring lines.
Thus all the way with H.A.D. and the Star League.
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I can see the DC pulling back from the main thrust …
Banzai, Banzai, Banzai …..
So no, I see them attacking from the front, the flanks and the rear …
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if more clans or the Cats are sent out to widen the wedge towards Terra would add pressure to the DCs options.
Problem – increasing the number of targets decreases the amount of overall forces to continue the advance as well as decreasing the forces available to undertake a planetary invasion – thus creating a problem if DC can find additional forced to defend these planets – The Jaguars would loose forces for no real appreciable gains (not to mention they would loose warriors that they are unable to source from anywhere else!).
In this war warriors are the life blood of every clan – kill them off and in numbers and every clan will cease to function as an effective fighting force – as they cannot be replaced in vast numbers! Whereas the IS Academy system does allow for the replacement of warriors in vast numbers!
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FWL
Sooner or later the FWL will have to make a decision re the Clan Invasion – the closer they get to Terra - so how will parliament and the people react to their Capt. General sitting on their hands doing nothing during this period of uncertainty?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/08/22 04:01 AM
1.147.88.67
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One more point – if the FC were worried about the Terran Corridor (between their two halves) there is one more political move hey could make.
You are hereby cordially invited to the wedding of Victor Ian Steiner-Davion to Isis Marik …
Thus, forming a union of blood between these realms …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/22 12:58 PM
45.51.181.83
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Sandoval is kind of easy to handle. Simply put, would you want the fighting on DC worlds or Draconis March worlds? You can always annex the DC worlds later, when the DC pulls completely out of the area. That should quiet him down, maybe even get him on board with keeping the area tied up instead of his worlds being fought over. Granted, if the clans spread out from Terra, there are forces that can be moved from the DC area to hit the flanks of those coming from Terra.
Comstar would be in a position that they or Ulric will have to figure out which is the lesser of two evils. Work with each other or deal with the crusaders alone. Trust would not happen, but at least a share view might work. Even if it is nothing more then facing the same enemy on opposite sides of the invasion corridor.
I only brought up the nukes as it would be logical progression to Terra falling. I would love to keep them out of the what if, or used as a one time thing. A suicide pilot being chased by his own nation trying to stop him from escalating the situation sort of drama. Yes, it is a tired scenario, but one that does address a few things.
It doesn't even have to be a fighter pilot either. It could be a simple truck driver.
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Requiem
08/08/22 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Sandoval is kind of easy to handle.
Sorry, but I disagree, for Hanse James Sandoval is one huge headache he would rather not have to deal with due to his blinkered views …
Other such individuals would include – Nondi Steiner, Ryan Steiner … and the list goes on and on …. As due to the peerage system he is stuck with them, he cannot just fire them or transfer them out of key positions …
James Dassert Sandoval – Field Marshal of the Draconis March and Duke of Robinson
Career Military Officer – however as a man of times his First loyalty and duty is to the Draconis March, the Federated Suns comes in Second. He is, therefore, a very blinkered individual who presumes the greatest enemy will always be the Combine (they are the reason why everything goes wrong).
Getting him to recognise that there could be an alliance between the Suns (as he may have an issue with even recognising the idea of the Federated Commonwealth) and the Combine due to the existence of a mutual threat that is so existentially dangerous will be incredibly difficult for him to accept.
I doubt the existence of the Clans could be used to persuade him that the FS needs the Combine to survive – in my opinion his plan would be to kill off the Combine first then deal with Clans …
Hanse Davion will, however, require his assistance – therefore careful diplomacy will be required to try at least to get him to understand the situation as Draconis March forces will be required for the defence of the Inner Sphere ... earlier rather than later.
In the event, however, that James becomes too obstructionist with the safety of the Federated Commonwealth as a whole – through his blinkered view of the Universe – Hanse will have to retire him one way or another as he cannot allow a single Duke to dictate FC policy towards the security of the Realm. Especially when facing the onslaught of the Clans and the need for a combined CS / FC / FRR / DC and hopefully FWL response.
As Hanse cannot let James drag out the transfer of Draconis March forces until the Clans begin their attack on Terra and are beginning their invasion of the Draconis March and only now does James realise the scope of the problem at hand.
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Trust would not happen, but at least a share view might work. Even if it is nothing more then facing the same enemy on opposite sides of the invasion corridor.
As long as there is, at a minimum, a Churchill / Stalin type of relationship between ComStar and the Clan then the IS should be able to survive.
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I only brought up the nukes as it would be logical progression to Terra falling.
Sorry but I disagree – Terra is the only world that cannot ever be allowed to become a dead world through mass nuclear, chemical, biological WMD mass strike. The destruction of this single world will have ripples that will pass down throughout the ages that no one can understand.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/08/22 07:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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Handling Sandoval could easily be a long chat, and replacing him with his son, for the betterment of March and all that. Hanse could spin it and have Hasek-Davion go in, smooth it all over, and sell it as a good thing. Then toss a few bones to the mech factories in the March, things like that. Sell the song and dance story you offered, but one can always pull the chain back.
ComStar will be fighting for its life. They will likely stop some of their games with the Houses until the more significant threat of the Clans is removed unless Waterly is truly insane and tries to play everyone against the middle. Thinking that the house (ComStar) always wins since it controls the venue. We might still see a split in the ranks of ComStar as things don't hold out for them as they face mounting losses to Clan Wolf and the others. Ironic if this split sends Focht and his version right into the arms of Hanse and Theodore and the Blakist version running to their double of Tommy but without the chance of taking Terra, not sure they would have the same impact or importance after that.
Nuke issue would be tried, someone would do so, and someone would try to stop it. It is a cliche; however, it's one card the Inner Sphere has that they could use to level the playing field, and unless Jamie warns them against it or has warned them, it might be one they will try. I don't see cobalt nukes, but more tactical-level warheads used.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/08/22 07:35 PM
45.51.181.83
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I could see Ryan actually trying the nuke thing, in order to pull more forces of the FC into the Skye area in order to protect it from the clans. This might be focused on getting Defiance reinforced with massive amounts of troops, and not realizing the clans would probably bombard the defenders that aren't in the factory itself, due to the nuke use.
Maybe the Black Dragons would do so, or someone from what might become WOB would be others. Not all would understand the full threat the clans really are, and think they could cower yet another would be conqueror with the threat of a nuke. This could well be how to get rid of either of those factions once and for all. Both clan and IS would turn on them to hunt them down.
The idea of having warship battles is limited due to the time frame of when the IS could actually get some up, and the overwhelming numbers the clans have initially. Granted, having them sent back to the home worlds after Turtle Bay, may provide the IS with some small time frame to use them, I don't think it would be the path to go down. Best thing would be stalemating the clans use of them. The clans really don't want to lose any, as other clans would use this weakness to pay back the offending clans, and the IS would not want to flush all the money down the toilet on them. Even if it might mean winning a world or two back. Just cheaper to use naval weapons on dropships and fighters.
And thinking about it, I think I understand why the developers did not want naval weapons on dropships. Imagine a Triumph with a belly/nose mounted NL on it. You could very well strafe with one of those. No need for orbital bombardments in order to use one.
Gutting all vehicle bays from it, might be enough for the space and heat sinks to use it. Not sure though, as I have not sat down to figure that out.
Hmmm. Maybe Comstar splitting up might be how the Clans take Terra. No one can coordinate as everyone thinks their plan is the only one that can win the day...
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Karagin
08/08/22 09:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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Yes, warship battles would be very limited to whatever ComStar had up and running, and I will say it will be in favor of the Clans at first, then swing to the Houses once they can get something up and running. Shorter logistical train and all that. Warships will also be the eye in the sky Hand of God, such as the artillery system for the Clans. The Inner Sphere or ComStar forces on the planet can not counter it; thus, the Clans have an ace, and they will use it.
Couple of things we won't see, Protomechs and the Cyborgs. So that's a good thing. Likely not to see a lot of the other silly stuff from the Dark Age timeline, not outside of really devastated worlds.
Ryan or the Black Dragons are likely groups to use nukes and find out quickly; that was a bad idea when it brings the full wrath of the Clans down on them. I could also see hardliners in ComStar doing the same, which would likely be the point where the split happens and we see it splinter.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/08/22 11:16 PM
1.147.88.67
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Sandoval is kind of easy to handle.
Sorry, but I do not get that interpretation of him – for me he is an honourable man – blinkered – but honourable and loyal to the March.
The problem with updating his factories to omni tech. / Clan grade weapons systems / assistance to enable the Draconis March to manufacture warships etc. as a means of getting him into the war, he could very easily turn around and say that the Draconis March will retain these new weapons for the defence of the March against the greatest threat – The Draconis Combine.
If I remember correctly to remove James and replace him with his soon it took the entire Sandoval family to come together in a meeting to effectively inform James that her was no longer the Duke, and that his son was now effectively the Duke, due to his current mismanagement of the situation.
Thus, effectively obtaining any change to remove James will require carful manoeuvring behind the scenes or a poison that looks like a hear attack (and is undetectable).
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ComStar will be fighting for its life.
Yes, I agree.
Waterly, however, is that truly insane! Sometimes I wonder how she got the top job, then I remember anyone that crossed probably ended up having a fatal accident until any remaining competitors quickly got out of her way (fear of what she would do to you is also a means of obtaining the top job).
In my opinion Focht will have to put her down (again) in this what if scenario for any reproachment to be successful.
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We might see a split in the ranks of ComStar.
Yes, I agree.
However, the theological rift will be seen in how ComStar deals with its enemy – the Clans.
For me I could see the Com Guard acting as a honourable military obeying the rules of war etc. WoB, however, would be their evil cousin who considers the rules of war a waste of time and decides the means justifies the end and anything – and I do mean anything – is acceptable (the worst kind of terrorist group you can think up would be appropriate here).
Thus the Com Guard attempts to work as a partner within the newly formed SLDF, whist at the same time, the WoB are in the shadows somewhere devising the most evil means of killing off the Clans with their new cybernetic army they have liberated from one of the five hidden worlds.
Now doesn’t this sound like fun? You can be on the side of light or darkness within an epic game of survival for the human spirit.
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I don’t see cobalt nukes, but more tactical-level warheads used.
Unfortunately there will always be those who want WMDs in the game. For me, however, can I just say that I would prefer if they were banned once and for all!
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I could see Ryan actually trying the nuke thing ….
Yes I also agree Ryan would go down the nuke track if he believed it would benefit him – as I doubt he has any morals or scruples whatsoever.
That said, if he was successful – and the universe was able to pin the blame on him – just consider the last scene of the film Warriors when they were by the sea as an appropriate metaphor.
No where to run to baby, no where to hide ….
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The Black Dragons
They are an ultra-nationalist group who strike to keep the culture of the Draconis Combine as ‘pure’ as possible – adhering to the strictest code of bushido for example …
Thus, they would act only in the defence of the DC – with nukes? Maybe if they thought they were threatened to such a degree.
So your guess is as good as mine …
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WoB
Yep, no doubt in my mind whatsoever – they would use nukes, asteroids, anything that could kill of the Clans (and in all probability all Clans Wardens and Crusaders – in their mind they are both as bad as the other and as such they both need to killed off).
Thus, making for a vey dangerous foe on the battlefield – willing to kill anyone to get to either Clan side.
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Warships
As this is a what if – warships can be considered as soon as 3040 with the fist trials starting just prior to 3050.
We do not have to stick to absolute ‘canonism’ here.
As for Warship battles – can we go back to the rules of war ie a penalty for Turtle Bay the Clans agree to conform to the rules of war - Ares Conventions such as Article II ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/09/22 12:40 AM
70.118.172.64
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We might see the "pocket" warship idea come about sooner, though; that would be something the Fed-Com or the Combine would be quick to jump on, as would the FWL.
Speaking of the FWL, they would stand to gain the most with a splintered ComStar since their imposter would welcome them. This would allow them to upgrade some of their factories and handle internal issues better, just as the Combine and Fed-Com would gain from the parts allying with them.
The wild card is going to be the CC. They will want some of the cake, but will they be ready to do anything? If Romano goes after her sister and kills Justin, then at this point, I don't see the same restraint being played by Candance as we saw in Canon. Do you think a shadow war between them would be waged with Fed-Com help?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/09/22 01:16 AM
45.51.181.83
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I would definitely see the FC help with dealing with Romano. Justin is Quintus Allard's son after all. Hanse was on great terms with him, before asking him to 'defect' to the CC before, and during the 4th war. Even ignoring that, the FC stands to gain a lot be removing Romano and Sun Tzu.
And without WOB, the CC would not gain warships, as they would not have anywhere that could build them, so the CC would not be the huge pain they are in the future. But this is about the clans taking Terra. The future is not going to be anywhere near the same.
As naval weapons are built, waiting for warships to put them on, I definitely see them being used on dropships and stations to try and defend against warships and even clan dropships. You can remove a cluster of mechs by taking out the Overlord-C before it reaches a planet. And given the TO&E in the books, a huge chunk of clan dropships are the Overlord-C.
The idea of a shadow war does need to question on how effective it might be with the shadow war the FC had with Comstar before and during the 3039 war. Did it end with the war? Or did it continue on even when the clans invaded?
Just a thought, but how many ship producers does the DC have that would not be hit or threatened by the clans? I may have to look that up, as I thought most were in or near the FRR. As Luthien would be hit, anything there is likely to be a target as well.
I would think Katherine might turn out different then the canon story. I think she would see that supporting Victor and the war effort is the only way she would be able to lead either nation. The only way to inherit anything is for it to survive, and that isn't likely with her trying to take the power.
I believe this would change her outlook on the future. She would not have the people behind her if she tried, as Victor would be fighting for the life of the FC and LC.
Since the SL is clan made, there is no greater power to try for. This is live or die. No compromise, due to the Falcons being the ones she has to deal with in the LC.
No bs of Joshua. No bs of Vlad. Only watching the LC being destroyed. She may even take up piloting a mech in order to help defend it.
Hell, Hanse and Melissa might have Katherine stay in the FS portion, due to it being safer then the LC. That would completely destroy her power plays, even if she didn't change.
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Requiem
08/09/22 07:58 AM
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the FWL … would stand to gain the most with a splintered ComStar
There are many factors that need to be considered, in my opinion, as how ComStar’s technology will be used … just off the top of my head …
First, has the Star League been re-formed?
Second, who is the Primus of ComStar …. Is Myndo Waterly alive or has she been executed by Focht and replaced with a conservative?
Third, If Waterly is no more has WoB been established and are they currently attempting to take the Five hidden worlds - their vast storehouses of technology – their numerous R&D teams – as well as their military industrial capabilities before ComStar and their cronies can lock then down?
Fourth, what is the dogma of the newly reformed ComStar – are they still adhering to keeping technology their own or have they been reformed and now believe it is their duty to disseminate the information to everyone in order to safeguard humanity from the Clans?
As this is a what if scenario every Game Master could virtually decide their own history …
So yes FWL could gain the most / every house is supplied with a ComStar Team to disseminate the information equally / ComStar with Primus Waterly could turn it’s back on the IS and go into hiding / ComStar is effectively destroyed and WoB is formed from the remnants.
Or what ever you want.
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wild card is going to be the CC
First – the 3039 war – to canon or not to canon that is the question, whether it is nobler in the mind to exterminate the Capellan Confederation …
So have you killed off the CC or have you decided to allow the CC to remain should be the first question.
If you have killed them off – then may I suggest Sun-Tzu become your protagonist who is attempting a Coup in order to start a resurgence of the CC empire.
If you haven’t and Romano makes a move against Candace then there are many scenarios available …
Candace could activate her spies in the Royal Court and just have everyone murdered
Hanse could finally lose his cool with the CC and start a war to finally kill of the CC – Can I suggest head-hunter tactics by dropping multiple RCTs onto Sian …
As for warships – do they have a copy of Helm Memory Core – and do they have the engineering skills to implement this knowledge to its full completion? Just as the FC and the DC have the ability to do so?
That said do they really need the WoB to build warships?
As for placing naval weapons upon dropships – isn’t this a waste of resources? As during the Star League Age drone fighters etc were used – so why not expand upon this to the point of naval weapons?
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Shadow War
Why would Hanse want to keep secret he is at war with the CC whist at the same time at war with the Clans?
Sorry but I do not see why? Can you elucidate this point please?
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how many ship producers does the DC have that would not be hit or threatened by the clans?
As the clans are currently moving in a straight line towards terra – the answer is how many ship yards are on a direct line with terra as the Clans advance?
Post Terra’s capture – look at Jade Falcon’s foray into the Lyran Commonwealth – sharpening the Claws.
Though in this case, post capture of Terra, each Clan will be perusing the surrounding systems with a shopping list of what is most desired – where I would assume a shipyard would be high on the list – that said every DC ship production yard is vulnerable if a Clan decides that is should be theirs – they have a real child in candy shop mentality sometimes – that is mine and that is mine …..
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I would think Katherine might turn out different then the canon story.
I would say she would be vastly different than that of the canon story, and I hope Victor is also different – competent would be acceptable.
As for Katherine attempting to take the throne – if Victor keeps playing soldier and battles intensify there is a good chance of him being killed off or captured. Either way Katherine doesn’t have to get her hands dirty to get the throne.
In this situation Victor must be removed from the Battlefield and assume his position as ruler! He cannot fog it off onto his mother in this case!
So, yes survival does come into it.
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Since the SL is clan made
Ha? You have lost me here – as I was under the impression the Star League was officially created on the 9th July 2571 with the signing of the Star League Accords by Ian Cameron and the five House Lords.
Also it does not matter which side Katherine is on FS or LC is Victor is lost in war, and both her parents are no longer in the picture – the FC is hers for the taking.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/09/22 10:25 AM
70.118.172.64
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I doubt Katherine will be an essential figure unless something happens to sunder the FC in two. Then she might be thrust into the role like her sister was, having no real idea what to do. Beyond that, she would not be anything more than Victor's sister. One he might trust, but he also might keep at arm's length as well. And it's very likely that all the kids, except for Victor and his next oldest brother, are in the FS side of the FC for safety reasons, which would make complete sense.
The Joshua Debacle, yeah, that is not likely to play out as canon. Hanse can offer the help of NAIS, but given that everything changes once the Clans renew their offensive operation post-Outreach Summit, that might prevent his ever going to New Avalon and also recall he is already on Outreach being treated by the Dragoons medical teams. So he may end up staying there.
Vlad is going to Vlad. He will be the foil for Phelan, and those two will do their thing. Given that there will be no chance of Vlad becoming Khan of Clan Wolf any time soon or ever, it's, as you said, a different future past Terra falling.
The Shadow War is likely going on still, but it's just that, a shadow war. The intelligence agencies of make strikes, and the other side counters. Reports of accidents, both civilian and industrial, make the papers.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/09/22 10:44 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans would not want to lose a warship because it would take time to replace it; that is very true. Also, the loss would be a tactical victory for the Inner Sphere Houses, which would do all they could to use it as a boon to gain more support for the fight. Still, it would also cause the Clans to change their operational planning again, which might be the biggest issue for them given how fixed on a plan they seem to be at this point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/09/22 06:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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I don't think Victor would head to the FS side, as his character would fight the clans in the LC until the last. As his 4 brothers and sisters are there, and possibly Melissa, there would be little need for him to go. Yes, he is the leader of both realms, but I think he would 'fight' the return to FS order. Nondi and even Adam, have shown they are not up to the task of running the LC portion of the FC, so unless someone else is sent to deal with it, he would remain there, though not sure how effective outside of the military he would be.
So are we going to keep the suicide run in? I was assuming it failed or didn't happen, so the year of peace did not happen. The Outreach meeting would not have happened, which is why there is no truce nor anything to stop the clans from continuing on during that time frame.
If it did happen, I would propose having something else happen, then the year of peace. As we know the clans could have full continuous communications with the invaders, I would think that they could promote another leader without all the clans having to be face to face in person. The initial rage could well drive the invaders to take far more territory quicker, as they are less concerned about their own safety, beyond normal clan norms. Even using warships to take out defenses and bombard worlds. Once this passes, they would realize they screwed up and remove or severely restrict warships useages.
Maybe with Vlad, you can remove him entirely by having the techs prevent Phelan from rescueing him if the suicide attempt happens. Remove the luck of the belt buckle from holding him down, or the unit it was caught on broke. Or have Phelan's rage break and him just toss Vlad out of the breach.
The canon story does say how much some clans relied upon having the warships be part of a bid. It may be a safety blanket for some. Maybe they expect a repeat of Kerensky's assault on Terra, which included the warships fighting and bombarding positions. Having them removed would definitely destroy that dream.
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Karagin
08/09/22 07:58 PM
70.118.172.64
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No, I agree Victor would stay with the 10th and fight; his other siblings would be sent to safety, though. He wants to be seen outside his father's shadow and his cousins, so he will stay. The rest of the Steiner branch of the family is unfit to run a Canopian pleasure house.
I say keep it, but the year of peace doesn't mean the Inner Sphere suddenly get's plot armor yes, the Dragoons help them out, but nothing will change overnight. Some front-line units will get weapons upgrades, but that is about it. Rotation of units from the other side of the FedCom to the front will start, but it will take time to get them in place. Same for the Combine. They will be refitted, but it won't be a quick thing.
The FWL will need to retool, which alone will take time, and in some cases, it stops production lines from being retooled. The year of peace gives the Inner Sphere some time to bring new units up, that is about it, and share tactics and make some longer-term plans. We might see merc units cutting and running and others stepping in to backfill, but we won't see high-tech mechs in huge numbers on the front lines.
Vlad is a minor issue, and he can live or die. He is a foil for Phelan, the idea that Phelan saves him, but Vlad is scared badly could be something that comes along later. Ideas to play with.
Bidding will change as things change, but since warships are part of the Clan bidding, they will be used as each wants them to be used. Some will use them as the "ULTIMATE WEAPON," while others will use them as nothing more than more powerful artillery platforms. One thing that will change the Clans will pull more fighters back to protect the warships and prevent another bridge strike. I am willing to bet they will send word back to the homeworlds of this vulnerability in the design of warships so it can be fixed going forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/09/22 09:27 PM
1.147.88.67
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I doubt Katherine will be an essential figure unless something happens to sunder the FC in two.
Sorry, but isn’t this at the discretion of the Game Master who is constructing the story?
I could easily kill of Victor and make her the protagonist.
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Joshua Marik
Or, with full access to the Helm memory core Joshua is saved – a cure is found!
Thomas Marik’s (fake) relationship with ComStar cools for their inaction and perfidy in not offering medical assistance to his son – though he is still their puppet due to being the fake Marik.
Thus putting any future FWL / ComStar relationship in jeopardy.
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Vlad
If Ulric becomes Il-Khan due to the death of Leo Showers
How can Natasha Kerensky become Khan – as 1. She is tainted by being a member of the Dragoons; 2. She has been living as a Inner Sphere person for how long now, thus tainting her even further; 3. Being absent from the Clan for the majority of her life - all (majority of) her peers (past supporters) are now long gone – thus she has little to no political allies within the Named Wolves to support her ascension politically; 4. No one her age could ever be considered for the position of Khan – a solhama unit however would take her!
So unless TPTB want to play silly buggers again, her being Khan, is not going to happen!
Also her warrior skills – she has been fighting IS warriors for how long now – so wouldn’t her past skill as a Clan warrior dulled over the years – thus any circle of equal / positioning trial would not favour an old granny warrior when compared to a new younger Clan warrior.
A young named warrior, however, with the right combat record – and with named supporters throughout the Clan – could become Khan.
If Phelan objects, however, as his foil it is up to the game maser to decide how this will progress …
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shadow war
Yes, I agree this is still a possibility.
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The Clans would not want to lose a warship because it would take time to replace it
Is the HPG relay from the IS back to the Kerensky Cluster up and running? If so they can have a substitute warship in just over 6 months (the time to travel to the IS).
Otherwise, just over a year.
Remember the Clan’s maintain warship storage areas in space – as seen in the Wolverine exodus – so how many warships each Clan actually maintains is unknown.
The only factor that could slow down the transfer is the availability of a crew – how many spare crews are held on hand for just such a request? My bet is the Clans have more ships than crews!
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I don't think Victor would head to the FS side, as his character would fight the clans in the LC until the last.
Sorry but in all reality Victor would be immediately transferred to command company of the Marshal of the Armies – Morgan Hasek-Davion – where he would be expected to learn how to command the entire FC military in the field against a belligerent enemy.
Him swanning about as commander of the 10th just proves what a complete fool he really is – and by the way when you graduate from an academy you are NEVER given command of a battalion – a lance yes, a battalion, never! So, can we finally get a little realism???
Also Nondi is not in charge of the military during the Clan Invasion as Mogan out-ranks her and is supposed to be in the LC conducting the war (even though TPTB have actually put him in a box somewhere in space as they do not want him interfering with the Clan Invasion by actually commanding the FC troops to victory!)
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Clan invasion 3050 - Katherine Morgan Steiner-Davion Bn 3032 -age 18; Peter Ardan Steiner-Davion Bn 3035 – age 15; Arthur Andrew Steiner-Davion Bn 3037 – age 13; and Yvonne (?) Steiner-Davion Bn 3039 – age 11
This is where I really have issue with the story – these children’s parents are supposed to be Hanse and Melissa and you expect me to believe that with all their education and love from their parents they ALL (and yes I did say all!) turn out to be basket cases of the worst order … so once again can I ask for a little more reality as there is NO WAY IN HELL that Melissa would allow their personalities to turn out as written!
Thus, I suggest that in your what if scenario that you ‘actually fix’ their personalities to that of a Noble Warrior House within the IS (given they are now at war with the Clans – and every member of the Royal family should be demonstrating their part as a member of the services! Even Queen Elizabeth was in the Military during WW2!!!) My suggestion - Scrap the canon personalities as a waste of time and effort!
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keep the suicide run in?
The Battle of Radstadt? Tyra Miraborg?
No, it really is not necessary. Even in the canon story it is quite irrelevant as no IS forces of any of the great houses actually make any serious preparations for the return of the Clans – no new strategies are put in place – no one even decides to turn the economies of any of their states over to total war production – none of Great Houses decide to reform the SL and the SLDF as a unified front against the Clans – so what’s the point?
TPTB has created a totally unrealistic situation when you consider their “Year of Peace”!
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The Outreach Meeting
Problem – if the Dragoons do not have a come to god moment and inform the wider community of their origins – once it comes out, and it will, and they (the Dragoons) did not inform the Great Houses then in all reality the will be labelled as fifth column – and hunted down!
So unless you want the Dragoons to be as dead as many other great mercenary units they will have to declare themselves for the IS and they will have to fight against the Clans as a consequence!
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Even using warships to take out defences and bombard worlds. Once this passes, they would realize they screwed up and remove or severely restrict warships usages.
IN MY OPINION!
As stated, many times before – How does any IS House Lord know that the Clans will not use a warship as they did upon Turtle Bay?
Where is the Priestesses of Delphi, The chicken entrails, The Ouija Boards, and finally the bloodhounds, that will inform them of the Clans decision not to use this tactic again?
Without a clear and defining statement by all the Clan’s Khans and their il-Khan there is no evidence to suggest they will not use an orbital bombardment in the future!
And when the Falcons threatened to use one in the future the IS has no choice at this stage but to consider every clan warship the greatest threat to IS safety. So unless the Clans provide the IS with ships of their own they will have no choice but to start a nuclear war.
Thus once more we have a story that has gone way off the rails of reality – can it be fixed soon?
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Warships
Can we finally get over this? We are in space – ships will be required – this will also include a Navy as no rational military would ever go into the void without a naval complement!
So can we finally get over this and allow them into the game?
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I agree Victor would stay with the 10th and fight
Really? Hanse’s older brother - how did he die? And we expect Hanse to allow Victor (a green as green grass) CO who does not deserve his position to remain in command of an RCT?
Can I laugh now?
Remember Victor is the Heir Designate!
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The FWL will need to retool
Every military industrial complex within the IS will have to retool once Clan tech has been reverse engineered!
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Some will use them as the "ULTIMATE WEAPON,"
Thus, as the IS does not have any other anti-warship weapon – nuclear war commences.
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I am willing to bet they will send word back to the home-worlds
What happens when the IS has their first warship slipping their docks and placed on active duty?
Sorry but this really needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 12:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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One of the things that would have to happen with bringing clantech to the IS houses is teaching the techs how to fix it. But then I didn't see anything about techs having issues with SL tech that came out. With different tech being completed in different realms, it is kind of amazing that the tech wasn't used specifically in the realm that did it. I believe it showed up in realms that would have gotten the tech last before the one that researched it.
The main issue I can see with rotating the troops from the far side of the FC/FS is time. Unless there is a huge jump in jumpships, they just won't have a lot of time to move the troops. The first thing would be get troops to the worlds that the others are being moved from, as these would be coming from the TC/CC borders. Both are hostile to the FS/FC. This is not saying it couldn't/wouldn't happen, just take a while.
Then comes the question of where to refit them at?
Defiance is the first thing to come to mind, but I don't think they will have the room or parts to do multiple regiments of refits at the same time. They would be scrambling to retool their lines to make the clan tech, and fit it into their existing production. Which would also need some time to work out some bugs. A Zeus with a clan erppc will have issues venting heat if it wasn't already upgraded with the IS erppc.
I would also think that designs using the omni concept would come out, but this would take time as well. I doubt it would be done before the clans restarted their push. Granted, I could see the omni tech being put in vehicles before mechs would get it. The open concept of vehicles, verses the tight confines of mechs issue.
The reason I question the pause is the clans are supposed to take Terra. The pause gives the IS some time to get things going to help them fight the clans. Not that it can't be overcome with other things. Such as the clans bringing in the reserves they have at the home worlds for a dramatic push.
Bidding would have to change, and it would be for the worse for the IS. The low bid would not be so low, as they would need more forces to take out targets faster and with less casualties. With the exception of the fear factor, Warships without others to fight, seems a waste. Where as the IS would be more willing to use them to bombard worlds, the clans would probably shy away from it after a time or two. There is no glory or honor in destroying an enemy from orbit. Not that it would stop them from doing so, but it would have to be a really unusual situation.
The discussion of warship designs, makes me really dislike the idea that a fighter craft can ram a warship taking out the CIC. This should be standard training when found out. I know BTechs targeting systems bite the big one, but that would be the primary area to shoot at. Right between the huge com towers. The observation/bidding area is ok to have the vulnerable placement, but not the thing that runs the ship.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:17 PM
70.118.172.64
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That is correct, time is the killer, and again no plot armor thus, the year of true to get Ulric as the new ilKhan after the suicide run by Tya (I think I got her name right) is not enough time for all the magic that happens in canon to have happened.
The troops will be showing up piecemeal and feed into the fighting that way. Imagine you don't know that world X has fallen, because while you were recharging at world W, the news didn't get to you, so you jump into a hostile jump point. That is the stuff that will be happening in both the FC and the DC.
The pause is fine; the Clans will need time to bring up supplies and troops, lulls will happen in war, and they can last a few too many months. Since we are talking about interstellar distances, a year would not be uncommon and considered very short.
I agree with you. The Point Defense Systems would have been upgraded after that on all Clan warships, as a matter of fact, not as on this was a one-off chance. They would have been ready for something like it on the off chance. Again this comes down to Mechs are King, everything else is third rate compared to mechs in this game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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As the Clans push deeper into the Inner Sphere towards Terra, their bidding should have changed already. They should have had numbers built in to deal with all the crazy ways the Inner Sphere forces weren't playing by their (Clan) rules, and they should have been adapting to these changes.
There should have been PGC ready to land right behind the front-line troops, with two missions, pacification of the rear areas and reinforcements of the front-line troops if needed. The Clans should have already begun to train counter-insurgent forces to deal with FC/DC holdout forces. Troops trained to go in and root them out. They should have moved to more combined arms sooner and used their tech and range to their advantage. Instead, we saw them written as ego-driven arrogant, narcissistic well; you can add all the colorful adjectives you want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:30 PM
70.118.172.64
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While Defiance Industries is an important part of the MIC for the FC, it is not the only damn company making mechs. It can fall, and the FC will still be around.
I don't see the FC leadership losing a war just to save it. They can evacuate the needed machines, techs, plans, etc...off-world to another location, and while that means a loss of production over time, they will get back what they lost once things are back up and running. This strategy has worked well for others in the past. Skye region can burn; it's one part of the whole, and it;'s value is has the same level as all of the other parts for the FC to worry about.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/10/22 01:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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Picture things like this: look at the WW2 fighting in the Pacific. If an island was too strong to take, it was bypassed. If it was truly needed, they took it regardless of what the enemy had on it or added to it. That is how interstellar fighting will be or should be. It's not like moving from point A to point B. It's going to be oh so the is system has this planet, which has this, but they have four times the force there than we can easily handle right now. However, similar resources and smaller numbers of defenders are strung out over four planets in the system. We can take that and hold it far easier with what we have.
Such places like Defiance will be blockaded at best or bypassed and dealt with later. There is no need to fight a stronger force when you can simply prevent them from getting supplies and stopping the forces there from leaving. So no I don't see Defiance as anything of importance beyond it;'s a factory world that can be taken with some better planning than slugging it out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/10/22 06:03 PM
101.177.88.129
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… bringing clan-tech to the IS … teaching the techs how to fix it.
With salvage initially there will always be issues – however, techs have been jerry rigging tech to keep them going for how long now?
As for when R&D reverse engineering models are produced by then significant techs should be available.
Other sources ….
Capturing Clan Techs – simple in-game possibility when raiding a clan held world.
Wolf’s Dragoons establishes a training facility on outreach – graduates then train others – who train others …. Etc. Chinese wall of training can be established to simplify training throughout a vast military.
No real problems – except initially.
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problem rotating the troops from the far side of the FC/FS is time.
Question
- are these troops permanently garrisoning their world due to a lack of Jump-ships?
- do they have access to local merchantmen vessels?
And yes – tyranny of distance will also play a part in any replacement units required. So will need to get those forces in close proximity to the battle to slow he clans down … whilst considering …
That said, however, will need to look at how many units were available during the 4th Succession War – then add some more …
Also if you have killed off the CC then your FC forces now have access to their Fleet of ships …
So, Command needs to identify what units they need and will need to get them into the fight asap …
And then ….
First – need Opfor training with Wolf’s Dragoons before being sent into the meat grinder – preparation – may also require weapons upgrade packs before going to the front – access to a large-scale facility or a large scale mobile refit vehicle station with the sole aim of minimising time to the front – or the Logistics is sent to the unit en route so that their techs can make the modifications whilst still in the drop-ships as it were.
Second – need to identify the correct land to optimize IS chance of success – then put the engineers to work building further traps etc.
Third – yes more IS omni designs need to be established to replace older mono package mechs. That said however even I could recognise that omni was the way of the future pre clan invasion. I wanted to take a crusader and make it omni way back when – so why didn’t Wolf’s Daragoons rearm he IS?
Remember the coin you pay in achieving your military objectives is the lives of your troops – just do not sell them cheaply!
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The reason I question the pause is the clans are supposed to take Terra.
If the Clans have taken Terra – then this is when the pause should be established!
The Clans then need to figure out what is next for them – they will need an investiture ceremony of the il-Khan and il-Clan – they will then need a grand meeting of all Khans (on Terra?) (even those from the Kerensky Cluster will have to travel to the IS) to pay homage and to determine what is next etc.
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Bidding would have to change, and it would be for the worse for the IS.
Question have the clans learned anything or will they act the same?
So in reality bidding?
The real issue is the number of Clans in the IS post capture of the Terra – the size of their forces and how many IS forces remain to fight them – and how well updated are they to engage these fresh new troops?
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… destroying an enemy from orbit
Problem – once introduced the gams shifts immediately to a Jihad setting of nuclear war!
Also neither the IS nor the Clans should have an appetite for using orbital bombardment as the consequences are too onerous.
Also there is no glory in loosing a war – thus if you can win through orbital bombardment it will be used … How many times has this been used within the history of the game?
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Kamikaze
Like it or not if TPTB do not allow anti warship missiles in asap and warships are still present in the combat zone then the IS has no choice but to resort to Kamikaze + nuclear weapons.
Or you allow the IS a naval fleet into the game.
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Tya (I think I got her name right)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tyra_Miraborg
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not enough time for all the magic that happens in canon to have happened.
Initially you are going to have to kill off some of your units – with orders to drag out the combat for as long as possible – guerrilla warfare!
This time saved will be used to get troops and engineers in place!
Then there is the issue of every world is an island and high tech – high population worlds – they should have hundreds of regiments – so good luck for the clans getting though any time soon!
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That is the stuff that will be happening in both the FC and the DC.
First, has survivors been able to exit the system?
Second, did the unit have access to black box Tech. if so a message should have been sent.
So the chance of mis-jump into enemy territory can be minimized …
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As the Clans push deeper into the Inner Sphere towards Terra, their bidding should have changed already.
Yes, but politics will always play a part – remember what Natasha did to Phelan in sending him down on his own!
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There should have been PGC ready to land right behind the front-line troops
Problem – The Clans by their very nature are as a warrior society built upon racial superiority through genetic engineering. Thus they cannot show weakness and they cannot allow too many freeborn into their warrior club – as that would defeat the purpose of being a warrior society with genetically improved individuals.
So no – by the very nature of the clans there cannot ever be a vast number of PGCs – they will always be a very small number – that is unless you want to kill of the genetic superiority of the clans and adopt a liberal all people are equal mentality – then you can have all the PGCs you want.
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military industrial complex
How many new designs were introduced post clan invasion? Thus how easy should it be to establish new Mech production facilities?
My point is that the number of manufacturing facilities should be easily established upon every high tech / high population world – only restraint is Logistics – the metal to make it, if the system has the vast quantities also or can get it shipped in hen there really isn’t a problem to establishing a military industrial complex on almost every world if necessary.
His is also one of the biggest black holes of the game – The IS should be able to out produce the Clans at a factor of over 1000 to one f you adopt a total war economic development scenario …. The Clans do NOT have the people and they most definitely do not have the mass production facilities that the IS is capable of producing if necessary!
So how were the clans ever expected to get anywhere within the IS without TPTB cheating for them?
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They can evacuate the needed machines, techs, plans, etc...off-world to another location
Has everyone forgotten the magnificent effort of both the Russians and the Chinese during WW2 with regards to their manufacturing facilities – dismantling, transporting them vast distances – rebuilding and maintaining vast production output …
And yet they believe this cannot be replicated in the future?
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look at the WW2 fighting in the Pacific.
Yes I agree this is how the IS would fight.
Problem – the Clans psychological profile says that if there is an enemy force in front of them, no natter the size, then they must prove their genetic superiority by beating them down – proving their military prowess no matter what!
Maintaining a dogma of racial (genetic) superiority – such as the Clans – comes with a massive baggage of psychological issues! This is but one.
Such places like Defiance – will attract immediate attention – will be bid for and attacked asap no matter what the defending force size is – after all they a former SLDF military outpost and as such must be owned by them (Clans) and not these filthy heathen IS barbarians!
Sorry but there is an imperative as far as the clans would see that this facility be returned to its rightful owners and sanitized of all IS taint asap!
Remember you are dealing with Mongol warriors with a massive genetic superiority complex that needs to be proved to everyone every single day!
Thus you will most definitely end up slugging it out as the clans cannot see any other way!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 06:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the damage the others had taken by the 'weak barbarians' even the most arrogant clans would realize they needed more supplies then they thought. The IS tends to go in waves for things, with infantry and vehicles being among the first into battle, then the mechs after the enemy is hot and low on munitions. This is completely opposite as well as not happening with the vehicles in clan trials.
The open field battles is where the clans should learn hovers are not as pathetic as they look.
The issue I do have with the continuity of canon is when they introduced the sensor baffling material, and yet nothing heard of it except the adventure pack it came in. But then that would give the IS the power, not the clans.
The counter insurgency troops is a point TPTB screwed up on. The clans supposedly trained the Dragoons with it, yet couldn't figure it out during their invasion? The 7th Kommandos is a great example of this. Tactics used against the clans would not work against the IS well. Man sized traps is not something the clans would do, as they just challenge each other, not sneak around in bases.
Defiance came up when thinking of the troops moving from the TC border to the clan border. Except for Twycross, I couldn't think of another factory or area those troops could stop and upgrade their equipment with. Galantia (merc central) might have the facilities, but maybe not the parts.
And that brings up a point. If the C-bill and Comstar falls, what happens with hiring mercs? There is no 'neutral' entity to deal with payment and punishing them.
The 'island' hopping happened during the invasion in canon. The clans only had to remove jumpships from the systems and the forces there could do nothing but eat thru their supplies. As stated before, the clans were not worried about destroying jumpships. They had plenty more and could make them. So destroying them wasn't a problem.
The only real issue with Defiance is when it would be dealt with, even just a blockade. It is far enough out of the normal path to Terra, that it would probably be dealt with after Terra is taken.
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Karagin
08/10/22 09:04 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans should have spent the year of figure out leadership changes and also figuring out what was working and what the hell was not working for them. Supply issues should have been the most significant, and their arrogance blinded them, but it should not have. Quartermasters and master techs should have been ordering parts and supplies, knowing what they would need. Sorry but regardless of how minor that stuff is to the writers, it plays to the damn story. That's how it goes: bullets, spare parts, POL, medical, and food. I get it; very few authors and TPTB served in the military, and very few were in the Army or the Marines.
The point I am driving at is that they could have taken the time to cover the logistical parts in detail. It would have helped sell things better down the line. So even for the "realistic" BT universe thinking, supply issues should have been a significant point of contention for all of the Clans. The Jaguars, most of all since they just took a beating on Luithen. The chance to rest and refit should be what both sides are doing, and while a year is a long time, it's short for a war on this scale. The thing is, the Inner Sphere militaries are used to operations like this. For them, the lull would be the chance to dig in, repair, shuffle around, evac wounded and essential people and tech.
So, for this, we should see the Jaguars being more cautious and living up to their totem's namesake. Striking quickly where they know they can win, hitting and fading. Not trying to run through things like a bull in a china shop. With the help or support of the Cats, they should be able to tie down more Combine units since the Cats are striking out around the Periphery flanks coming from that way. That alone would send fears of a wider war front and rumors of more Clans and more invaders all over the place.
The Outworlds Alliance would be scrambling and blaming the Combine for any attacks, though I wonder if the Ravens are already on the move at this point, I need to check the books on that, and they would be trying to get their heads out their fourth point of contacts as well. The FC would be caught off guard since now they would see this new front and do the math, seeing that their flank could be turned. Then when reports come of the Vipers doing the same thing on the FC's LC side, things will not be pretty for Hanse and the rest.
Ulric will need to keep everyone moving, letting the other Clans run wild to get to Terra, while Natasha and Phelan run the Wolves as straight as they can towards that goal, which will tie everyone up in bloody combat, so it won't be the walk in the park and again I don't see the Wolves in or on Terra no sooner than 3058.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 09:23 PM
45.51.181.83
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I believe you are correct on part of the supply issue, and with few serving in the military. But I do believe that TPTB purposefully left the supply issue in the game. Had the clans actually done what they should have, the IS would not have formed the SL in canon, but the clans would have taken Terra. It was the weak spot that would allow the IS to halt the clans, with the help of Comstar, setting up more things in the future. Much like having the SDS/ground batteries in place so nothing could ever land on a world, prevents the game from happening.
I also believe they specifically left out vehicles for battling the clans, as it would show that mechs aren't that great. Thus the need to not allow them some basic upgrades in the entire life of the game.
That struck me as odd. Why would the Ravens want the OA? Well other then them not being able to get to say Galax or some other ship yards.
But in the thread, the other clans fanning out that far would definitely bleed the DC. They would also put a major scare into the FS portion of the FC. With it, I wonder just how many forces from the TC border would actually be sent to the LC. This may also paralyze the Draconis March as well. The question of where to send your forces to comes to mind.
This scenario would definitely help the push for Terra, as reinforcements would be even more scattered or maybe not at all.
One point that should be made. This is a what if, so if things are done a little differently then the canon story, it is fine. If you want the Ravens moving now, or before, that shouldn't be an issue. This is trying to put some real logic into the invasion. Part of why I believe more clans should have been sent in the first place. This would be something the crusaders would want, as they wanted to destroy the houses, while the competition would want them to keep the others out. Once they realize the IS would embarrass them, the crusaders would push for more clans to 'prevent' the nuke fest that was the Amaris and first two succession wars.
They might also decide to punish the periphery, because without them being at war at the time, Amaris would never have been able to get close to Richard, destroying the SL.
Which may put the OA in a tight spot. If we go with the revenge concept, the OA might well be smashed for their part in the lead up to the death of the SL. Not sure if the Ravens could do much about it either.
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Karagin
08/10/22 10:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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I agree it allowed them to set up a more extended storyline for the canon, but they didn't do anything with it. The Truce should have still had the Falcons and Jaguars taking worlds UPTO to the Truce line on their respective borders with the FC/DC. The only Clans screwed at this point were the Wolves and Bears. The idea was they couldn't cross the Truce line till 3065 or so.
Again, they had a lot of stuff they could have done and milked and still kept the Twilight of the Clans stuff in play, to the point of even making it more believable in slamming into the overextended Jaguars. Still, nope we got everything shifted to the same old same old, Fed-Com/Laio temper tantrum storyline.
The Ravens are an odd lot. They may have wanted it as an end run or found something out there they wanted. Like more resources or abandoned SLDF naval yards. Things to ponder.
Yes, the Vipers and Cats expanding along the flanks would bleed out the FC/DC forces and draw in the forces of the local Peripheral powers. Some of these would be a boon for the FC/DC, while others would be a hindrance for all until destroyed. I would expect to see a lot of secondary pirate actions around these areas as those foolish enough to try and raid while everyone is fighting would pick up.
I am not sure about the Ravens. I am reading up on them and trying to figure out why they jumped the way they did. I am starting to think that homesickness for the known space, so to speak, was a widespread issue for the Clans.
The OA is going to be in a spot no matter what. With the Cats out there and possibly Ravens, they will have to fight or be conquered, and this time it won't be like the SLDF doing it. This time it will be for keeps and no home rule. They will be part of whichever Clan wins the day out there.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Pht
08/11/22 12:27 AM
98.21.88.138
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Quote:
What do you think would have happened if the clans took Terra in the original invasion?
Say Ulric took the wolves to capture Terra.
This would also mean one of the others may have taken it as well.
It is pretty much assured that if the Falcons or Jaguars took it, there would be a continuation of fighting going on as they would not just sit and rule Terra, but try to eliminate those that brought down the SL in the first place. The house lords bear a lot of responsibility for that, but not as much as Amaris did. Still, they did nothing to prevent the fall of Terra, nor did they do anything to help take it back.
Do you think Ulric would have been able to control the Crusaders in both his clan and the others, and prevent them expanding and reclaiming the TH area? Do you think he would promote that very plan?
We can expand this to include more clans as the need for warriors will become necessary no matter which way this goes.
Which also means answering if the others would get involved as they were left out of the original invasion, and would see such duty as nothing more then a glorified PGC.
Would the clan in control be forced to give up their territories in the home worlds, as they could not keep control of the IS and those areas as well?
Well, comstar would go berzerk.
Whichever clans that took it would likely be mauled badly by the comguards stationed on earth, and I suspect the other clans would be seriously considering if they could take it from them.
Without a meaningful production base on terra, whoever took it would be on the hook for securing it, and all those WOB assets would likely be un-mothballed and used to fight to to take it back from them.
Even if one of the clans managed to gain the ascendancy AND all the other clans kowtowed to their supposed right, they'd still be in for a serious ride, because playing their usual clan-drama nonsense out in the areas around terra would not go over well at all, and the houses would be just waiting to pounce and crush them.
It seems like it would be a phyrric victory to me.
The other half of me thinks it would be hilarious if the houses just said "Meh, it's one planet. You can have the dumb thing," than just ignored them.
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Karagin
08/11/22 01:09 AM
70.118.172.64
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Pht, you might want to read the rest of what we have going, things are not as cut and dry as the ComGuard sitting tight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/11/22 01:23 AM
45.51.181.83
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We are looking at a what if, with this thread. Comstar would have to make a decision before the clans got to Terra. There is no real doubt of what is going to happen, but how they and the rest of the IS deals with it, is the key here.
There is nothing here saying it would be easy or there would be no losses. Quite the contrary.
The idea is to have a more realistic concept of the invasion, not the version canon presents.
If you have read a few other threads, you know the developers seemed to have forgotten or purposefully left out a few things to make the story go along the route they wanted to.
The idea that only 4 clans can do so, and bringing limited supplies to do it is too much. Having most of them ignore the very intel they got because it came from freeborns is garbage. But as things go, it was done with a purpose of not just rolling over the IS with the tech of the clans.
The black boxes used in the 4th war and 3039 war were also left out for the invasion. Comstar, working with the clans, was the 'only' way to get intel on what was going on.
Then the lack of just how much vehicles would play a part in stopping the clans were left out.
There is plenty more, but that is old threads.
This is using some logic to allow the clans to reach and take Terra. As with everything in a what if, there are going to be some issues. It is not meant to be an alternative to canon, despite what one person has been trying to claim.
Depending on how long you have read the thread, Comstar is pretty much going to break up if Terra is taken. WOB probably won't become a thing, as operation scorpion and Waterly's assassination wouldn't happen the way it did in canon. The crap of the hidden worlds will not be a thing either, as the clans have the old SL maps, not the Comstar edited maps the IS has. So what ever is hidden there will become clan property when they get there.
There is the issue of the sibkos, as the numbers that graduate to become warriors is low. The canon version did not ramp this up before the invasion happens, and went with the reavening in the later time frames. Except with the Falcons. The scientist caste had made more warriors with the DNA then the warrior leaders knew about, so the Falcons magically gained those ones to refill their ranks after the Falcon/Wolf war. I don't think this what if will do that. I hope not, as it sounds like plot armor gone wrong.
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Requiem
08/11/22 01:43 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
Given the damage the others had taken by the 'weak barbarians' even the most arrogant clans would realize they needed more supplies then they thought.
This is an absolute.
First, none of the Clans can be said to have enough supplies;
Second, all the Clans supply facilities are six months distant;
Third, the clans sibko system can never supply enough replacement personnel to cover the depletion report.
Then there if the final black hole – TPTB never established a written logistics resupply / replacement personnel document ever – It is therefore reasonable to conclude (in my opinion) that they also realised the shortcomings of the Clans and decided to ignore it lest the clans would lose and their grant plans for multiple new IS states (as 6 were never enough) and an il-Clan.
What we were also never allowed to do – go hunting for these logistics fleets – HA? Didn’t anyone remember the wolfpacks of WW2?
So all in all the Clans logistics is pointless – the Sibko system is pointless – and TPTB just fudged everything!
Quote:
The IS tends to go in waves for things
Depends on whom your CO is. Me I prefer starting off with mass artillery – LRMs – then brining in the VTOLs – followed by waved of fighters with gravity bombs – then follow up with hover cavalry and APCs (heavy weapons and HE) once everything has been knocked down for the count – then follow up with the Heavy Mech Retrieval vehicles
Toads – need to change the rules here and provide them with heavy weapons designed to actually do some damage on them … how many battles will it take before everyone realises that this is the way to go?
Also if you are going in the open (which you really do not want to do unless you are baiting them) and you do know toads are in the region – you mechs must be accompanied with mass hover cavalry with weapons designed to pick them off you mechs skin – Just like armour in the city – they have to in with infantry support otherwise you are just asking for it!
Really how hard is it to learn and adapt to Clan tactics?
Also placing PGCs on worlds in the rear – how hard is to strike at these worlds – and don’t go down with that tired stick there aren’t enough jump-ships as that tired excuse just doesn’t work.
Quote:
could stop and upgrade their equipment with
Problem – NO IS facility has the ability to assist with repairing Clan Mechs etc – unless they upgrade them accordingly. The same with consumables …
Quote:
If the C-bill and Comstar falls, what happens with hiring mercs?
Nothing – will just accept a new House currency – upgraded weapons – rites to salvage etc and keep on being Mercs.
Money is Money whether it is C-Bill, or other …
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The 'island' hopping happened during the invasion in canon.
Can you provide an example?
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Defiance
On Hesperus – Defiance Industries
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/61/Lc-3052.png?timestamp=20100529215848
consider the Jade Falcons invasion corridor – getting narrower and narrower the further we go down – they just do not have the forces.
If we keep this up all the way to Terra they are a vast distance from say Thorin / New Earth to Hesperus …
If you are looking for an interesting planet to attack along the way, may I suggest Skye.
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Clan Supplies … during the year of peace
First even if you combined all the Clans together there still will not be enough supplies to maintain the invasion – The invading Clans require military industrial facilities / mass sibkos within the periphery as well as massive supply dumps ….
I doubt a year will be enough to fix the Clan mistakes …
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I wonder if the Ravens are already on the move at this point
Once the Invading Clans close n Terra all Home Clams should be making preparations of their own to begin the second phase – conquest of the IS – so yes I would assume they too should be on the move.
As for the Combine the number of existing and new forces they have is up to each individual Game Master to determine.
I cannot see the Outworlds Alliance even being involved at this point in time as why would any Clan travel that far just to invade? It would just complicate the logistics problems many times over.
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time to Terra
Too many unknowns to make an accurate determination – could be 10, or even 50 …
He entire concept when it comes to the Clans and their military requires a complete upgrade … as is they just don’t have what it takes …
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Why the Clans fanned out that far
TPTB wanted new empires all throughout the IS and the only way that was going to happen was to spread the Clans out and beef up the Periphery States …
So they made a completely unbelievable story with an impossible back story …
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Once they realize the IS would embarrass them, the crusaders would push for more clans to 'prevent' the nuke fest that was the Amaris and first two succession wars.
Sorry but with more Clans – more warships – if TPTB doesn’t even the weapons attributes – expect Nukes to settle the issue.
Why would any Periphery state get involved against the Clans? Distance is too grate for them to care!
Also why would the MoC ever join the CC – this new combined realm has ruined the MoC of old and it just sickens me that TPTB would have done such an act!
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Again, they had a lot of stuff they could have done and milked and still kept the Twilight of the Clans stuff in play
TPTB should have slowed down -thought through all the angles – looked at history books – then and only then started the invasion – and again they should have taken their time writing it as too much was left unsaid / half done or was completely stupid from the get go.
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It seems like it would be a phyrric victory to me.
I agree totally.
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The other half of me thinks it would be hilarious if the houses just said "Meh, it's one planet. You can have the dumb thing," than just ignored them.
Yes, it would be hilarious – problem is it is never going to happen. Terra, as a symbol of power, will be desired throughout all eternity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/22 03:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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I think another what if might be in order, with Comstar opposing the clans right after their first contact. I would think the clans would not make the third wave....
As for this one, a few questions come up with the clans getting closer to Terra.
Does the citizens of the realms rise up in great numbers to join the military in order to prevent those worlds from falling?
It concerns me a little that rebellions would form if the houses just abandoned the worlds that the Bears and Wolves would hit, due to the Falcons and Jaguars moving to basically cut them off.
Would there be a mass exodus from those worlds as the houses would move to abandon them?
Would this end up with major revolts that threaten to destroy any of the houses?
One or all of these could be the reason why the clans could hit Terra. There are others that could be the reason as well. Some moron like Adam Steiner, could take his unit on a glory run in order to try and protect a world that would be cut off. Or try to recover a world that was their home, and waste several valuable resources, like jumpships and maybe some assault dropships in a vain attempt.
More possible things such as the CC deciding to hit the FC as they are dealing with the clans. Sun Tzu may figure the FC would finally slow the clans down enough that he could build up enough forces to prevent them from getting into the CC. This could also come from his ignorance of the clans, and think they will negotiate leaving the CC out of their invasion plans. Romano might be pushing this concept.
This could be from the CC trying to retake St. Ives instead of the Chaos march worlds.
The fake Thomas, might be able to con the 'members' of WOB to abandon Comstar and come help him protect the FWL or even lead a counter attack on the clans. That could be why Terra falls. Having a chunk of their military, including warships, just up and leave.
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Requiem
08/12/22 12:43 AM
1.147.88.67
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Does the citizens of the realms rise up in great numbers to join the military in order to prevent those worlds from falling?
I was under the impression this question was a given? Yes, on every world taken by the Clans you will come to find an active partisan fighting force. Armament, however, is dependent upon the technological level of the world in question.
Any high population, high technology, world should have conventional regiments / air-force units in the hundreds – thus the partisan forces could be ‘who knows how many’?
One more point - a trinary garrison with support personnel – can someone please explain how they are supposed to maintain a 24/7 security force (Infantry) to patrol the outside of their garrison?
As the answer, as far as I can see, is they don’t have the capability to maintain a security force to protect their garrison 24 / 7 – Thus how open are they for sniper / IEDs / kidnappings etc? – Something they have never had to protect from in the past? – within the IS, however, it can be considered to be an every-day occurrence on some captured worlds! Hence the need for vast Infantry forces to guard and protect and sweep areas clean.
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that rebellions would form if the houses just abandoned the worlds
Remember for most border worlds the changing of House occurs with little to no affect upon the people – other than the currency and public holidays – as Houses have come to the conclusion if they do not interfere then they usually get along and the need for security people is minimized.
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a mass exodus from those worlds
How many drop-ships and jump-ships are available? Therefore, any exodus will be minimal to nil.
Also Houses do not abandon them – this is why spies set up resistance cells as well as why invasions to reconquer worlds occur.
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Would this end up with major revolts that threaten to destroy any of the houses?
Too many worlds for revolts to occur upon the majority of worlds all at the same time to threaten to destroy Houses – it also needs an important reason, such as succession to the throne for it to spread over the entire realm.
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Some moron like Adam Steiner
Yes I agree, Adam is not competent as a military leader and I too find it difficult to understand how he made it through the ranks given his past decision to run off on his own,, to do his own thing without discussing it with high command, without coordinating his activities as a sanctioned reconnaissance mission.
Normally this should be considered him abandoning his post in the facer of the enemy – as well as leading forces to mutiny in the face of the enemy …
As to why the Clans want Terra as a target is due to its historical imperative – the cradle of humanity / the Star League – also in this case the Clans have turned Terra into a cheap prize, be the first and win il-Khan / il-Clan status – can they be any plebian at this stage?
A single world objective is not that important, for the most part, unless it maintains a significant military industrial facility / central government world / is of historical cultural and religious) importance … etc.
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the CC deciding to hit the FC as they are dealing with the clans.
How many forces does the CC have? Especially when you consider the size of the FC military - so how large can the CC grow from the 20 year update to 3050?
I would also like to put in the point if the CC can increase in size in this short period of time doesn’t this also predicate hat the FC can also increase at the same rate (if not at a faster rate? Thus any silly move by the CC at this stage could be the last they ever make if Hanse finally loses his patience with them? (also war of 3039 – the CC, as far as I consider the facts, should not exist any more TPTB once more rigged the game!)
Retaking St. Ives – remember they would have a mutual defence agreement with the FC – so any move on them would invite a massive retaliation!
Chaos March – only occurs if you allow the FWL and CC to attack whist at the same time the FC does absolutely nothing to defend these worlds so in all reality this is not going to occur in this what if.
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WoB / Comstar
First how does the schism eventuate in this what if?
Second who gets kicked off Terra and why?
Third why would the Fake Thomas help either if they did not assist in keeping his son alive – and he had to ask help from FC?
Lastly, having a proportion of the Com Guard up and leave just as Terra becomes a target of the Clans in an act of infamy that no one within the entire IS would forgive or forget – this force, and their officers, would become a pariah in the entire IS!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/12/22 12:56 AM
70.118.172.64
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Interesting, CapCon hitting the FedSuns part of the FC while they are fighting the Clans...that would be a twist. How would Hanse handle a two-front war? Which enemy would be the one to deal with first...
ComStar fighting from the reports of first contact would require the Clans to wipe out one of their HPG stations or forces, which could likely happen. A ComGuard Level II out on patrol runs across a Clan Star, fighting happens, and things go pear-shaped from there. Yes, that would be another twist. This would mean the IS might get a warning of the real threat sooner, and the Dragoons might come forward sooner. Not see it change things to much, since there would still likely be no Tuykiad fbattle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/12/22 01:12 AM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of Comstar not working with the clans would be for a different what if. The idea is the clans not having to destroy an HPG, but just start seizing them, and running it themselves. But that would only seal the resistance. I was thinking Walterly agreed with the rest of the first circuit to resist the clans. This would change a lot, as the clans would not have the big surprise that they initially did. Worlds under attack would have information sent out by the HPGs, not suppressed like canon did. Unlike canon, there would be no doubt the new attacks were not pirates. It might also negate the clans warships for a while.
The CC would have a field day hitting the FC when the clans are close to Terra. So many forces would be tied up with dealing with defending worlds, and trying to retake them, that the CC would have a good chance of doing some damage.
Even just distracting the FC, would help the clans without the CC realizing just how much this would increase the chances of the clans taking Terra and expanding from there.
Any feedback on the other suggestions?
Like the populations having issues with the military leaving some worlds as they could not defend them due to becoming cut off quickly?
Or join to help prevent the need to abandon them?
The choice of WOB was not something decided on a whim or spur of the moment. They had to have long term planning done in advance. Maybe they didn't like the idea that no one could advance without being a toady of the ruler, and they did not change often.
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Requiem
08/12/22 01:31 AM
1.147.88.67
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CapCon hitting the FedSuns part of the FC while they are fighting the Clans
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the CC would have a good chance of doing some damage.
As stated previously – what is the disposition (TO&E) of both the CC and the FC?
I would also like to ask what is the political and military situation of both the MoC and the FWL?
Remember the comparable size of the FC military – they could quite easily take on the Clans whist killing off he CC as the entire military of the Capellan March on its own should be able to kill them off!
So unless this what if radically changes the military of either side the CC will not survive very long if they get adventurous – thus the CC doing some damage? Not likely.
As for the assisting the Clans to take Terra – remember the distance and the number of worlds required to be taken by them to reach Terra.
First they actually need all the forces and the logistics to reach Terra – and the Clans have neither!
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ComStar fighting from the reports of first contact
Com Guard would first have to reform to engage the Clans – remember they are spread out throughout the IS as they are now guarding all their HPG sites – so this will take time.
Second if the Com Guard has decided to get involved then why haven’t they attempted to form an allice with FC, DC and FRR as a combined military against the Clans?
As for the Dragoons as stated previously, they must have a come to God moment and inform the IS as to their origins or face being labelled 5th Column.
And yes, there will not be a Tukayyid battle in this what if.
The entire War will have to be re-written – as the means of conducting a defensive campaign has just shifted wildly.
As stated previously – what is the disposition (TO&E) of both the CC and the FC?
I would also like to ask what is the political and military situation of both the MoC and the FWL?
Remember the comparable size of the FC military – they could quite easily take on the Clans whist killing off he CC as the entire military of the Capellan March on its own should be able to kill them off!
So unless this what if radically changes the military of either side the CC will not survive very long if they get adventurous.
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ComStar fighting from the reports of first contact
Com Guard would first have to reform to engage the Clans – remember they are spread out throughout the IS as they are now guarding all their HPG sites – so this will take time.
Second if the Com Guard has decided to get involved then why haven’t they attempted to form an allice with FC, DC and FRR as a combined military against the Clans?
As for the Dragoons as stated previously, they must have a come to God moment and inform the IS as to their origins or face being labelled 5th Column.
And yes there will not be a Tukayyid battle.
The entire War will have to be re-written.
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WoB
They are a quasi-religious order – thus the dispute with ComStar should be of a religious nature – ie. a reformation where one side declares the other heretical.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/12/22 02:23 AM
70.118.172.64
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I have ideas. I just need to reshuffle things a bit for the second what if. I can see the idea of the Clans seizing HPG stations causing ComStar to be pissed and then getting shot at when they try to get them back.
Waterly would have tantrums and be jumping up and down demanding Focht do something about all of this and then blame the Houses for not protecting the HPG stations etc...
The CC going after the FC, mainly the FS part, would be a classic double play and amusing as all hell. Now my question would be when, though. Would it be before his mother goes after her sister and Justin? Or after that? I don't see Romano making the moves to go into the FC; she isn't mentally stable enough to even see that as a plan. So it would have to be Sun-Tzu.
This means this would have to be much closer to the later part of the Clan invasion when the FC is fully committed to the fighting, and oh, here is a kicker. Maybe Katherine is working with Sunny on this. Yeah, that would be a big slap in the face to her daddy...LOL On second thought, Nah.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/12/22 10:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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Wow. I thought I had some evil thoughts. Katherine helping Sunny to take on Victor while he is fighting the clans. Now that would be a interesting what if. Thing is, I don't think Katherine was against her father so much, as I think she was jealous of her father working with Victor. This comes from the civil war novels, as she is in the Fox's Den thinking about Hanse.
The timing is important, and I think there could be three versions of the CC hitting the FC. One with just the chaos march worlds, one with St. Ives, and one with both. As the clans neared Terra, there would be a major shift in forces to try and stop the clans. I could see a major deployment in order to do so, even if the FC doesn't help reinforce the DC worlds near Terra. The main reason for this is the heavy losses the FC would have to have in order to be losing that many worlds, though we haven't gotten into if the FC is taking back worlds or not. I am sure they are trying, but I would think trading worlds would be more likely. Take one, and lose one sort of thing. This could yet be another reason why the Falcons were not able to deal with the Wolves on Terra.
One scenario that just came to mind is a Batchall being done for Terra, with Comstar losing, then reneging on the deal. Simply put, the Wolves would be on Terra or next to it, when this happens. This could well throw all the clans into a frenzy because Comstar would show they are not 'honorable'.
This could well cause some of the home clans to start heading into the IS against the grand council's orders, or even the council allowing it.
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Requiem
08/12/22 03:42 PM
1.147.88.67
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Clans seizing HPG stations, forcing the Com Guard to retaliate
Standard planetary invasion then? The worlds, however, that these HPGs reside upon are FC, FRR and DC – thus in all reality the Com Guard will require their assistance.
This, therefore, will (hopefully) lead to the formation of the Star League and the SLDF.
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CC going after FC
Where the CC is making a move upon the FC under the false belief that they are distracted by the Clans.
What time frame is this – as you should realize as the duration increases from 3050 to say 3055 onwards the FCs model army is undergoing a reformation that the CC cannot be said to occurring – the FC has access to Clan Tech – Thus Omni Weapon Systems as well as Clan weapon systems etc. – the same cannot be said with regards to the CC – they are stuck with older models.
The FC should also be adopting a total war footing with regards to its economy the further you go from 3050 to 3055 and onwards ….
The FC to CC ratio a minimum would be far above that of 10:1 – it could be even as high as 20:1.
Hanse could therefore be using the CC as an OpFor unit to “sharpen the claws of his new model army” prior to being sent to the Clan front …
Then let us consider the number of shipyards within the former FS compared to those within the CC – as time increases the number of ships he FS has built compared to those of the CC would be increasing exponentially …
Tactically therefore unless the CC can obtain a significant ally, they are going to loose this war …
Even fighting circa 3050 the Capellan March will have significant forces where he tide of war will turn in the favour of the FC.
Time to face facts the CC does not have the necessary forces to engage the FC …
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Maybe Katherine is working with Sunny on this.
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Katherine helping Sunny to take n Victor whilst he is fighting the Clans
Hatred of Katherine runs deep and cannot be sated.
As this is a what if why do we have to stick with canon’s old and tired view of things – what about a new story where she is not a ‘traitor’ to the FC.
Also if she is so jealous of the male trope of superiority – why not make the protagonist her where she is the great military commander, even surpassing that of her older brother, and she has a force equal to or surpassing that of Victor’s 10th
And is she who leads the FC forces to victory over the adventurous CC ( if you want them in the game) – and why not add in a new Kai – she has Kali Liao (Sunny’s sister) helping her kill of her brother …
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there could be three versions of the CC hitting the FC. One with just the chaos march worlds
Sorry, but there is a major snag with this … the chaos march does not exist.
In this what if universe has Hanse died and has Victor gone down the replace Joshua Marik trope path? And has Katherine separated the FC back into its constituent parts LC and FS?
If this hasn’t occurred, as per canon, then we cannot say that the chaos march exists – and by the way Victor is supposed to be Duke of this March – so we can say he is doing a great job as duke don’t you agree?
Also St Ives has a mutual defence treaty with the FC – so again this just isn’t going to work.
So new idea based on rational thought – the 3039 war the CC was obliterated – sunny boy and his sister were sent to St Ives – there they grew up and sunny decides to stage a coup to reform the CC – civil war ensures …
Now we have a believable story.
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why the Falcons were not able to deal with the Wolves on Terra.
Why do we have to stick with these two? Why not allow their war to go ahead and guess what the FC steps in and kills the remnants of the two off – yay pyric victory for these two clans ….
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This could well throw all the clans into a frenzy because Com Star would show they are not 'honourable'.
Here’s an idea – why don’t we actually show the truth for once that the Clan are not honourable – as they have never ever been honourable as shown when the Clans were formed, as when they fabricated the war with Wolverines, as when they can no longer be seen as SLDF – and are now firmly good Nazi soldiers in all but name …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/12/22 04:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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If ComStar plays negative with the Batchall, then the entire war changes. There will be no quarter given; everything will be seen and treated as a Trail of Annihilation by the Clans.
The Falcons may not get there because the Fed-Com holds them up with stiffer defenses and counterattacks, and the FWL might launch an offensive into the Falcon's flank just to keep them off their worlds which could slow them down in addition to the FC issues.
If I was being nice, I am more of having Katherine slip and fall and break her neck in the bathtub. Since I am not, she can be the backstabbing, use whatever colorful negative adjective you want, and with no plot armor to save her; she will get either caught or used by those more skilled than her and left to swing when not needed anymore. But enough said about her. There are better characters to deal with running around.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/12/22 05:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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Katherine chokes on her own vile and dies would be a good way to deal with that.
With the first assault on Terra, would the Wolves be the only ones near it? Or would the Bears have something that they could bid against the Wolves with?
It seems the Falcons aren't close enough to do anything but complain, but what about the Jaguars?
This could also be asked about the VIpers or Cats.
Would there be a fight to see who gets first crack, like Rassahague had?
I would think the Wolves would push for no bidding, unless others were within 2 jumps, as any delay would give the defenders time to dig it. It isn't the Wolves fault the others couldn't make it there in a timely manor (hinting the others are weak).
While I'm thinking of it, the Great Gash on Twycross should be removed from the story. I thought it was a cheap way to gain more drama in the novel. The Falcon guard should be forced into going around the area like everyone else did for the entire time Twycross was colonized. It was too convenient for the IS to 'forget' it was there.
I forget how old Kali was at that time, but thinking one of the kids could have diverted forces, or even used CC money to hire mercs to hit a few worlds, forcing Romano to continue the assault, especially if they actually succeed with an assault. It is also possible that Thomas might suggest strikes, as he wants the FWL worlds lost to be brought back into the fold. This would also give the FWL a better reason to engage the clans, as Terra would be in striking distance of FWL worlds.
Then again, this is a what if, and is not following canon. Romano might decide that the FC needs to be punished for all the crimes against the CC and hit the FC. This could well come from support from the periphery realms as well. With the FS diverted to dealing with the clans, the TC might well decide to hit FS worlds. If they can take them and hold them being a question. I would think this depends on how many troops were moved to deal with the clans.
One major point may well be the CC striking a major staging area the FC has for dealing with the clans, forcing a major defeat for the FC, opening the way for the clans to hit Terra, and possibly worlds around it.
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Requiem
08/13/22 02:09 AM
1.147.88.67
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If ComStar plays negative with the Batchall, then the entire war changes. There will be no quarter given
Problem with this hypothesis:- Wolcott – the battle was a trap set by Hohiro Kurita; instead of facing “green” troops, the Combine forces were actually elite Genyosha regiments.
There was no response by the Clans here, so why should there be a no quarter, Trial of Annihilation, scenario as above?
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Tactics
As discussed previously there are multiple counterattack scenarios that can be utilized – each of which will influence their Clan’s ability to respond / proceed.
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If I was being nice, I am more of having Katherine slip and fall and break her neck in the bathtub.
Katherine chokes on her own vile and dies would be a good way to deal with that.
Question – Is there a new club? “The I despise Katherine in all what if / Alt. Universe scenarios just because Club”
So rather than taking each what if / alt universe as a single-story Katherine must be despised and killed off even if she becomes the hope of humanity just because in the canon story she is hated and reviled by some – thus her ‘evil taint’ will travel with her no mater which universe she belongs to.
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With the first assault on Terra, would the Wolves be the only ones near it?
Every GM / gaming group should be allowed to make this decision for themselves, just to make things interesting may I suggest Clan Nova Cat! The Jaguars, Falcons and Wolves will have a fit with this!
The Bears will be struck dumb, just mumbling "No F'ing way!"
I just cannot wait for when the il-Khan suggests they all go on a vision quest to find their totem animal to find a vision of the future ... this suggestion will go down like a lead balloon ....
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the Great Gash on Twycross Battle should be removed from the story.
This is a given – the battle just demonstrates how bad a leader Victor really is when given a RCT – as just dumb luck saved him!
Also why would you have a battle on the surface of the planet given the ferocity of the sandstorms as well as the number of underground passageways that should be evident?
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hire mercs to hit a few worlds
And how many times superior is the FC economy – thus the FC should have the ability to buy out some of the mercs; or just scare them from getting involved – thus leaving only the diehard CC mercs …
Also it is not Thomas within the FWL who really hates the CC – it’s the Duchy of Andurien and the Duchy of Oriente! So Hanse should use them to attack the CC – offer them the worlds they take, they can keep!
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This could well come from support from the periphery realms
Problem – neither of the two major periphery realms would assist the CC at this stage – they both would never work for the CC.
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the TC might well decide to hit FS worlds
As stated, many times, the TC are purely defensive in nature – they would never poke the bear for fear of a retaliatory strike.
Will have to change the entire nature of the TC – as well as the size of their military - if you want to go down this track.
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One major point may well be the CC striking a major staging area the FC has for dealing with the clans
You do realise that the closest staging area would be within the Sarna March (Terran Corridor) – First consider the distance to reaching this target – then consider the un-proportional response Hanse would unleash upon the CC for this assault – all I can suggest is say goodbye to the CC.
Also the CC would become the most reviled realm within the IS overnight for such an action! So I hope the CC can survive when all imports cease.
Also becoming a member of the new Star League and all the benefits that entails - access to R&D - new omni tech - access to captured clan techs etc. - All gone just because the CC decided they wanted to make such a childish move!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/14/22 09:23 AM
70.118.172.64
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If the CC attacks cause the FC to shift troops back to deal with them, which it most likely will, and they catch the FC flat-footed, that will be a significant blow to the FC. One that will impact the entire war.
Twycross was a minor fight, not a significant win, so to speak; the FC didn't keep the planet; they hurt the Falcons, and that was it. The public relations machine of the FC and the other Houses made it into a major victory and the cult of personality around folks like Kai and Victor add to it.
The Wolves would hit Terra full force, that won't change. If any of the other Clans are nearby they will still go in full force using the bidding system to done at the battle level for each engagement sight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/14/22 03:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Twycross thing comes from not liking the bs logic that comes up from time to time.
The FC troops were moving thru a massive tornado, yet they thought forces couldn't move then a pass?
The fact that an overwhelming majority of the FC forces would be engaged with the clans would definitely get a response from the CC. Maybe even the TC as well. As stated, this point will have an impact on the war. If the timing is right, the removal of front line forces to deal with either or both, may well have a clan push that breaks thru areas, causing the war to be lost.
What happens if the FC does get physically split? Would Melissa head to the LC portion to try and recover? Would Victor take up the reigns?
I can see a major reconstruction of the LC military, removing the old concept of the biggest mechs are the only ones worth using, and political power means the greatest leaders. The concept of the RCT might finally sink into the LC command as a viable way of fighting. That would change some of the fighting issues the LC has against the clans.
The DC 'honor' code of one on one would have to be removed for the DCMS to do much against the clans. I could see the adaptation of a version for them dealing with RCT style fighting units. Given the limited mech production in the DC, I don't think they would have much of a choice.
The whole reason for bringing up the issues with the Terra combat, comes from the flanking clans probably would not be close enough to to more the complain. Bidding is one thing, but having the forces there are an entirely different problem. This is also true with fights on the borders of the clans invasion corridors. To even try to suggest the Wolves wait for another clan to get close enough to bid, is against the entire clan way. This also presents a problem for the other clans, as their bid may well result in the full destruction of the forces they bid. Limited forces to reach there, and having to do with what they got idea.
Though this could cause more damage to the flanking clans, maybe even forcing them to stop forward motion in order to secure or reinforce the worlds they have. Losing even a cluster of untis would hurt, but I can see a full galaxy being destroyed trying to get close enough, quick enough, to challenge the Wolves.
I could also see the crusaders losing a lot of power, as they are forced to pull back, or even call for more clans to help them. Worse, is if they have to actually leave the IS or be destroyed. Even if they stay in the IS, they would be challenged at home, due to looking pathetically weak. But this would be after the Terra conflict. Something possible for the future.
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Karagin
08/14/22 04:09 PM
70.118.172.64
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The LC and DC changing fighting styles will come much later. They aren't going to shift quickly enough to make much difference in this war. The next one, yes, both will have changed their style. I agree that the LC part of the FC will have fully embraced the RCT with some heavy forces kept to give them a sense that we are still important in that something will be tossed to the elites of the LC nobility.
DC honor fighting style is similar to the Clans, it might still hang around, but it might be held for certain things. I could see the Combine using it in a former of counter-bidding. In an attempt to use the Clan's rules against them kind of deal. That could then be set up to make the samurai class more of an elite warrior class that would be sent into being the Coordinator's champions. Or something like that. Feel free to run with it.
If a Clan can't get to Terra, big deal, that's on them, not anything else. If they are unable to fight through the Inner Sphere and make it to Terra, they can deal with their shortfalls inside their Clans. Nothing is said or shown that all the Clans have to make to Terra. It says ONE Clan has to take control and keep it thus, and they are then the ilClan. So if the VIpers, Cats, Falcons, etc... can't get there, that is their issue, not the Wolves. Let me quote the hack Stackolpe as he once told fans at GenCon one year, "maybe they should have picked a better faction to support."
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/14/22 06:20 PM
1.147.88.67
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If the CC attacks cause the FC to shift troops back to deal with them …
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The fact that an overwhelming majority of the FC forces would be engaged with the clans would definitely get a response from the CC.
Problem, primary assumption – That the FC would move the majority of its military to deal with the Clans. The border, therefore, between the old FS and the CC has therefore become a “concentrated weakness scenario” to use the old LA phrase (or in this case flat-footed).
However, I would like to point out that neither Hanse Davion nor Morgan Hasek-Davion would never be that reckless. As I due to their extensive experience with the CC they will realise that the CC can never be trusted to remain idle whist the bulk of the FC forces are engaged elsewhere.
The FC (particularly FS – Capellan and Sarna March) military’s TO&E is of such a size that any remaining forces WILL be designed to deal with any adventurism on the part of the CC.
Consider the 20-year update with each realm’s military TO&E as well as the CC’s reduced military industrial complex – they do not have the forces nor the R&D the FC has, circa 3050 onwards, to prosecute an extended military campaign within the old FS – it is just not possible!
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Twycross was a minor fight … the FC didn't keep the planet … public relations … made it into a major victory and the cult of personality around folks like Kai and Victor add to it.
Sept 3050
FedCom Task Force – 10th Lyran Guards, 9th FedCom RCT and the first 2 Battalions of the Kell Hounds.
Sorry but you do not send a force this large to a minor fight!
Any serious military commander will realise that Victor went into the battle with a fraction of his overall forces and only won due the dumb luck mining the gash with HE (at the 11th hour) and that of Kai Allard-Liao’s self-sacrifice in detonating the charge.
Where in reality the 10th and 9th should have available artillery that should have been zeroed in on the gash to begin with – he also should have had a ready reaction force available to deal with any force that survived the artillery bombardment.
Also shouldn’t the gash have been used as a staging area for his forces? – as it’s a natural geological feature to escape from the wind on the planet? – thus any attack by the Clans should have been repulsed by the forces within?
Also where is Victor’s reconnaissance forces? Shouldn’t they have spotted the Clans advance way before they even arrived at the Gash?
Sorry but this is just miss-managed as far as a regular officer would view it.
As for cult of personality – where are all the opposition channels (as seen in today’s society throughout the world)? How easy would it be for them to get an expert in to inform the people that Victor, as a commander, really stuffed the battle and only survived due to luck of Kai?
So, unless the Government has total control over the media I doubt that Victor will be viewed positively by many.
Also if the planet is valuable – as seen by the size of the FC Task Force – shouldn’t the FC military expected the Clan response in sending the 423rd and 428th Cluster counter attack? – which also proves that this planet is of strategic importance as you do not send an invasion force this large to re-conquer a planet if it is so mediocre!
I would also like to ask Clan Warrior Joanna – she is supposed to be the only Falcon Guards warrior to have survived Kai Allarad-Liao’s attack – can I ask how as she would have had to remain in her Mech for two + months before being dug out?
Sorry this just defies belief … where is her food … and waste products being stored at the same time?
So in all reality she should be a POW with Victor’s forces if she is to survive! And what this also means is that the Falcon Guard’s mechs were dug out by Victor’s forces prior to the arrival of the Clan relief force!
Can reality be returned any time soon?
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The Wolves would hit Terra full force, that won't change.
This is a race! If beaten to Terra they get silver or bronze – they do not get the gold for kicking the first place holder off the podium.
So the Wolves will have to just accept their fate if they did not get there first and were not the first to take to the world.
Also I believe the game would be better served if the Wolves had to accept a little humility and were not the il-Clan – but this was never to be as TPTB rigged it from the get go (as seen by how they were treated throughout the invasion and beyond in comparison to other Clans!)
Also I though this was supposed to be a what-if forum – not a lets copy the canon story just extend all the battles so that Terra is taken forum in a manner that defies all belief as well as being mathematically inaccurate.
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Given the limited mech production in the DC
As stated previously – every world is an island – thus every world must have the infrastructure capability to engineer all vehicles, buildings etc necessary to maintain said world.
As the DC government is so closely linked to the military is should be very easy to turn on their military industrial capabilities in a time of total war output – hence massive military ordinance output!
So again can we extend a little logic to the game?
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the flanking clans probably would not be close enough to more the complain.
Actually in all probability all Clan’s should be in the same boat by the time they are progressing towards Terra.
First, all Clans rear should be constantly be in a state of flux due to …
Partisan activities
Also shouldn’t all IS forces be using hidden worlds by this stage to attack Clans in the Centre of the Invasion corridor – again this is not that hard to do and can be easily maintained with hidden logistic routes – that the Clans will now have to send their naval forces out to find!
Constant Raiding of Clan rear worlds close to periphery to disrupt logistics – the soft underbelly of the Clans!
PGS (manned by freeborn) crossing sides to the IS as they realise they will have a better life with the IS than that of their tyrannical True born overlords – IS psyops teams earning their dinner!.
IS Naval fleets engaging Clan Logistic Fleets + Clan Naval support within the Periphery – disrupting Logistics / replacement personnel.
Frontal Attack force by all new IS SLDF upon all clans utilizing WW2 Italy defence protocol – Attrition Warfare to grind the Clans down.
If any Clan moves forces to the front leaving any planet under garrisoned – IS spy will send a message – planet invaded for recapture and possible trap for any force sent to recapture the world.
So no I doubt that flanking clans have more to complain about – remember this is space warfare not land based warfare thus it is more of a 3D warfare – attacking from the sides to reach the centre is not required – something that TPTB constantly forget in this game!
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even call for more clans to help them
Say goodbye to any honour that Clan had – that called for assistance from another Clan within the Kerensky Cluster.
Also as this Clan would now be seen as week – how long until a trial of absorption is called?
Politically calling for additional forces is a poisoned chalice that will just lead to disaster – the Clans within the IS will have to fix the problem themselves or face extinction – there are no other choices for a Mongol Commander and her/his Hoard!
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The LC and DC changing fighting styles will come much later. They aren't going to shift quickly enough to make much difference in this war.
Can I laugh now? Both forces have undergone massive change from the before the 3039 war – LC started before the 4th Succession War with the assistance of the FS. – the DCMC began to change with Theodore Kurita’s reforms when he was Gunji-no-Kanrei – and he introduced the Ghost regiments – and as seen by Wolcott.
So no it really should not take that long to overcome, adapt and survive the coming of the Clans!
With the coming of the SLDF they must join forces to survive – and that will require change by everyone!
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DC honour fighting style is similar to the Clans, it might still hang around
Only by the oldest warriors within the DCMS and those attached to the Black Dragon Society – the younger fighters adhering to Theodore’s reforms will have a different take on this style of fighting.
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GenCon one year, "maybe they should have picked a better faction to support."
Predetermined end result? No chance for luck?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/15/22 11:29 AM
45.51.181.83
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Can you imagine that? A story that is set up so no luck in involved is the end result of the story. You mean writers actually write the story with the end result already figured out?
Whining that the IS doesn't have an SL is really stupid as the whole premise of this thread is that the clans make it during the initial invasion. What does this mean? Someone isn't bothering to comprehend the printed word. Just making stupid comments that go completely against the whole set up of the thread to get an argument.
The only one that said the IS made one is the person told to leave the conversation as NOTHING of what they continue to put in is wanted.
Claiming someone is reading your comments and taking it to heart because they say something you like is beyond arrogant. Nothing in your comments has set up anything that sounds like it. Thought are done and you are NOT the only one that can come up with ideas.
As the war is a major fight, the idea that the FS/FC has hundreds of regiments of mechs sitting on the sidelines shows a complete lack of thought. And those ones that are sitting in garrison are NOT waiting for the CC to act. They are scattered around the FC trying to keep pirates and others from taking the underdefended worlds. Anyone with any sort of intelligence can figure this out.
The comments are getting even more illogical and down right stupid as no one is bothering with the certain person.
Saying the GM has the right to change the premise, makes it sound like this is a completed concept, not a simple what if. As stated, leave the thread as nothing you put up has any relevance to what is going on despite thinking your view is the only thing that is logical or acceptable.
Put up or shut up.
This thread is to get ideas going, not rehash something that no one will see, despite it being toted as the only viable solution to canon, and been presented so all can view it. Yet only one person has viewed it, and basically said it wasn't going to hold water, so is being kept to just themselves.
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ghostrider
08/15/22 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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So would the flanking clans have any real chance to attack the inner clans holdings?
Or are they so busy with dealing with the FC/DC that they can't get enough forces to do anything but harass them?
I could see this being the main reason to hold up the flankers, and possibly set up Comstar having to garrison the worlds directly in the path to Terra, near Terra. Might even suggest the houses 'abandon' those worlds in order to avoid getting the forces trapped, as suggested earlier in the thread. I would think that within 4 jumps of Terra, the first Comstar/clan warship conflicts would start, if they haven't already done so. Which also would mean that the Wolves would have to send for more of their ships, or let the others deal with this scenario, not that they are likely to just sit back.
As for garrisoning their HPGs, this could lead to the falsehood Comstar had set up, as forces would be pulled from them en masse to protect Terra. They were only put there to set up for a time when Comstar decided a military strike on the houses was right.
This does lead to an interesting side note.
As Terra did have manufacturing facilities, or at least the Sol system did, would Comstar open up sales to the houses? I don't think they have the trained personnel to pilot all of what they produce, and this is a life or death scenario for them. I can imagine the DC would have more warriors then machines, and it isn't like the FC would be hurting for pilots over machines. Even if it was nothing more then vehicles, I would think Comstar would start selling to the houses. This would be true for jumpships as well. Not the advanced Comstar designs, but the normal ones.
This could well open up the need for Comstar to move some manufacturing to other worlds. The hidden worlds crap has to go. The clans would know what is there, though may be not if they still glowed or not. They would send someone to investigate them all.
This could also play a part in the engine issue for warships. Comstar might have to sell them sooner, rather then later, to the houses. Granted, this does not mean the warship release would be pushed up. The fact that the Comstar built engines may not fit the ships properly. so full redesigns would be needed. Much like making units, there is always something that has to be left out, or modified in order to get things working right. One possible issue is the thrust put out by those engines. They might not be enough, so need a larger engine sort of idea comes to mind.
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Cray
08/15/22 01:22 PM
136.226.19.185
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The counter insurgency troops is a point TPTB screwed up on. The clans supposedly trained the Dragoons with it, yet couldn't figure it out during their invasion?
As of 3058, all of the Clans together had 110,500 warriors and were occupying planets with, in total, over 100 billion Spheroids who largely disliked the Clans. In comparison, the US surged to 170,000 troops occupying Iraq (pop. ~30 million).
At this point you can say "'Mechs rule, 20th century tanks drool," but occupation and garrison forces usually have vast disparities in firepower regardless of technology. As far as a guy with an AK-47 or IED is concerned, there's not a lot of difference between a 31st Century 'Mech and late-model 20th Century tanks: both grossly outgun the insurgent. A F-15E Strike Eagle might as well be an aerospace fighter to insurgents.
The problem is manpower. Clan occupation and garrisoning had to execute Clan policies like like, "We're going to destroy your economies, force most of you out of work because the service industry is silly, stuff you into castes, and make you obey people with the biggest guns." Trying to do that is rarely about fighting giant angry mobs (which won't appear twice after the first time the Clans machine gun everyone), and it's rarely about fighting bands of swashbuckling guerillas with ragtag 'Mechs (which the Clan COIN training will handle just fine).
No, Clan occupation and garrisoning has to deal with billions of people per planet who don't cooperate. During the initial invasion, the Clans dropped a few hundred administrators and dozens of second-line troops on planets with billions of people. That's not enough personnel to know what anti-Clan memes the government is emailing itself, let alone monitor, police, and enforce Clan policies on the planetary government. There was simply no way for that few personnel to control such a vast population. COIN tactics are irrelevant when 4 billion people simply ignore your 200 civilian caste administrators.
The Clans could always shoot someone but they couldn't control and govern the entire population of conquered planets. That's where they ran into problems.
Some of the latest Touring the Stars and publications like Empire Alone look at the challenges the Clans faced. Different Clans had different approaches - the Wolves generally let planets know that they were going to leave the populations alone if they chipped in materials and supplies to the Clan, while the Falcons seized critical chokepoints like pharmaceutical production and only very slowly implemented Clan economic and social policies so there wasn't a badly riled population. After a few generations, the youthful, un-educated, propaganda-brainwashed populations thought the Falcons were just awesome - it was fertile ground for Operation Hollywood to disrupt.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/15/22 04:54 PM
70.118.172.64
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Cray, I can say a lot about guys with AKs taking out tanks, you want to argue that with me? Seen enough of them burying HME in the ground and blowup M1A1 and other vehicles, so please don't try to say that the higher the tech better they will be at keeping the rebels down.
So yes, Cray, they will have to deal with the populations that don't want to be part of their Clans. They have to integrate them into the system, and given that at the start of the Invasion, the Clans had no real idea of how the Inner Sphere worked, they were not ready to deal with rebels. Since they rule with an iron fist, they would have to have troops on the worlds that deal 100% with that kind of stuff daily. They didn't have that.
Also, we are not talking about stuff. This little discussion is set back at the start of things, aka the Clan Invasion, so there is no canon. We are playing with ideas and how things might go if certain things changed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/15/22 05:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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The flanking Clans would try to go after the Invasion Clans' holdings, just as they would in the Homeworlds. It would be the normal Rules of Engagement for that stuff. Not much would change for that.
I could see it changing later for, say, the Bears as they moved entirely to their Inner Sphere holdings, but that is a particular case.
ComStar pulling troops from their HPGs in the OZ would be something I doubt the Clans would allow. The Wolves might, but I doubt the Jaguars would or the Falcons. Each Clan would be doing their own thing on how they react to that.
ComStar selling military tech/equipment to the Houses. Yeah, this might happen if they can hold off the Wolves. Still, even then, that might now be the best course since they will need to replace losses of men and material and not having the asinine hidden worlds and super plot armor of cyborgs and ubertroopers to give them a massive army, nor the time to cough up one from thin air. They will need support from the Houses, and their best bet is to sell their tech and buy what they can.
The hidden worlds stuff, one hidden world as fall back for the Primus and such as a bolt hold, sure, that is logical, anything more than that, and we have entered the world of lousy pulp fiction and just needs Drs. Frankenstein and Moreau to appear any minute...and yes, the Clans would have the star charts and know the worlds are there. As dimwitted as the Clans are to how the Inner Sphere acts, they (Clans) are not idiots and will be looking for oddities. Clans like the Scoprions will have push Trials to have Seekers sent with each Invading Clan to look for certain things and watch for others. So they will notice the SLDF tech and see the units like the Light Horse and others that are former SLDF units. All will be reported to the ilKhan and Grand Council now if they choose to act or not. That is on them.
I could see ComStar, or what remains of it, holding on to their warship tech for as long as they can, or maybe as things fall apart, parts of the organization bolt for the FWL and the FedSuns with the tech, and the FedSuns get the plans for larger engines. In comparison, the FWL gets the plans for smaller engines or something like that. This could be part of what causes ComStar to collapse, and we see it break into smaller groups. Lots of ideas for that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/15/22 11:22 PM
1.147.88.67
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You mean writers actually write the story with the end result already figured out?
When writers construct a story where from the onset the reader can determine the end it (the story) becomes too predictable and boring. In this case it was easy to see in the late 1980’s – early 1990’s that Clan Wolf was ‘the chosen Clan’ for the writers – so now, in the early 2020’s, now that they are written in as the il-clan it was just too easy to predict – a self-fulfilling prophecy!
Has no one ever considered writing a successful plot twist – inspiring a surprise ending – killing off Clan Wolf, import and reveal new Clan – the unpredictable ending.
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Whining that the IS doesn't have an SL is really stupid as the whole premise of this thread is that the clans make it during the initial invasion. What does this mean?
So the premise is that the IS Lords could not come together to support each other as a unified force against a common enemy.
They all decide to just fight those Clans that are in their borders only and ignore what is happening over the border – even if that means that this allows for certain internal clan invasion corridors to move faster, and thus have the possibility to get into your rear staging area, thus effectively out flanking your forces, just because you have an ideological problem with your neighbouring realm.
This is like saying that America would be fine with Germany rampaging through Europe whist saying to England – this is not our problem, so we refuse to provide any support – so no lend lease, no financial support – nothing – and when you ask why? The President hates the idea of the Commonwealth, and he would rather see Europe become part of a Nazi regime just so the Commonwealth economic club collapses.
So what happens when these Nazi’s invade Canada – still the US does nothing and says this is not our problem.
Great understanding of the situation facing each House Lord - Rather than realising it is better to hang together it is decided that each will hang individually just because they cannot get over the hate they have for the other.
So not one – FC, FRR, DC, or ComStar – could come together to form a unified front!
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Claiming someone is reading your comments and taking it to heart because they say something you like is beyond arrogant.
Claiming I am writing this to gain ‘likes’, demonstrates a lack of understanding as to why I am writing.
The objection is to supply all those who read this forum, and do not contribute, with a differing opinion, so that they can make a more informed opinion based upon all the information to hand and not just one individual.
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As the war is a major fight, the idea that the FS/FC has hundreds of regiments of mechs sitting on the sidelines shows a complete lack of thought.
Question – there are individual worlds within the FS/FC that have populations in the billions – which also have a high technology rating. So what you are saying is that they cannot establish a military industrial complex and they cannot establish modern military training facilities for conscripted civilians.
Then can you please explain how any country on Terra currently can do just this, and with less technology and less people? e.g. USA, Russia, China ….etc.
So how can a substitute USA world within the IS make their military industrial complex and at the same time make their militaries – your answer is simple they cannot as the House Lord has not provided them with the facilities or the means of training their conscripts. They just cannot do this on their own!
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[And those ones that are sitting in garrison are NOT waiting for the CC to act. They are scattered around the FC trying to keep pirates and others from taking the underdefended worlds.
So anyone with any sort of intelligence can figure out, as an example, that USA and NATO should pull the majority of their forces off the borders with Russia or North Korea, as an example, and then have these forces redeployed to hunting down pirates in both Africa and South America as we can trust Russia and North Korea not to do anything whist these forces are off hunting down pirates?
Really?
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Saying the GM has the right o change the premise
And in so doing the GM has created the what if / Alt. Universe scenario. The aim of this forum.
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This thread is to get ideas going.
“First, all Clans rear should be constantly be in a state of flux due to …
Partisan activities
Also shouldn’t all IS forces be using hidden worlds by this stage to attack Clans in the Centre of the Invasion corridor – again this is not that hard to do and can be easily maintained with hidden logistic routes – that the Clans will now have to send their naval forces out to find!
Constant Raiding of Clan rear worlds close to periphery to disrupt logistics – the soft underbelly of the Clans!
PGS (manned by freeborn) crossing sides to the IS as they realise they will have a better life with the IS than that of their tyrannical True born overlords – IS psyops teams earning their dinner!.
IS Naval fleets engaging Clan Logistic Fleets + Clan Naval support within the Periphery – disrupting Logistics / replacement personnel.
Frontal Attack force by all new IS SLDF upon all clans utilizing WW2 Italy defence protocol – Attrition Warfare to grind the Clans down.
If any Clan moves forces to the front leaving any planet under garrisoned – IS spy will send a message – planet invaded for recapture and possible trap for any force sent to recapture the world.”
So, therefore, none of these can be considered to be new ideas? Can you please therefore provide your list of what is considered to be a ‘new idea’ when fighting the Clans?
Also as stated many times previously my new realm is completely and utterly divergent from that of BattleTech’s cannon – and as such I do not have to justify anything to anyone.
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So would the flanking clans have any real chance to attack the inner clans holdings?
Then how are wars of reaving as well as Trials of Possession going to occur when replacement personnel become scarce or when logistics fleets do not arrive?
Just shrug it off, combine units and just switch to energy weapons?
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Or are they so busy with dealing with the FC/DC that they can't get enough forces to do anything but harass them?
Question – Trial of Harass – where is this discussed within the circle of equals when clan forces fight one another?
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possibly set up Comstar having to garrison the worlds directly in the path to Terra, near Terra.
So ComStar is going it alone – telling both the FC and the DC to evacuate their worlds with their forces just so the Com Guard can fight the Clans on their own.
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Might even suggest the houses 'abandon' those worlds in order to avoid getting the forces trapped
So the House Lords have decided to abandon some worlds so that others can be defended – and they have also decided to remove Jumpships in this area also … so better to move them now before the fighting ensures … these worlds are now open worlds!
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I would think that within 4 jumps of Terra, the first Comstar/clan warship conflicts would start, if they haven't already done so.
And once again prove that the ComGuard is commanded by social hacks. Does no one even bother to read Rommel anymore, and what he said about D-day?
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They were only put there to set up for a time when Comstar decided a military strike on the houses was right.
Yes this makes military sense – divide your forces into enough parts so that hey are on every world with a HPG. Maintaining RCTs is just a waste of time of energy.
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would Comstar open up sales to the houses? I don't think they have the trained personnel to pilot all of what they produce
So, would ComStar want to keep the FC or the DC in the War, by supplying military aid, or would they rather prefer they knocked out of the war, by holding it back.
Also doesn’t ComStar believe in conscription even when faced with certain defeat of Terra? As with conscription they could manufacture all the personnel they require.
Also has ComStar adopted a total war economic footing by now or are they waiting to 1 minute to midnight to commence?
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I can imagine the DC would have more warriors then machines
Yes it is so very difficult to manufacture conventional military vehicles.
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I would think Comstar would start selling to the houses. This would be true for jumpships
Does this mean that ComSar has enough Jumpships for their ComGuard as well as for a possible evacuation of Terra and as well as a surplus number JumpShips at the same time?
Especially since no one else has surpluss JumpShips available – after all the fighting against my plans to combat the clans and was told that the IS doesn’t have enough ….
Or does ComStar have secret fleets of JumpShips hidden away just like their hidden worlds at this stage?
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the need for Comstar to move some manufacturing to other worlds.
When is this to commence – how much of a disruption to existing production – how many units will not receive their allotted new vehicles etc due to this move?
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The hidden worlds C _ _ _ has to go.
Does this include all former ComStar (then WoB) hidden worlds? As this will also mean that Thomas Marik (real) is dead – so what does this mean for the fake Thomas?
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The Clans would know what is there
This should be good, how? No, really, how could they (the Clans) send someone to investigate them all. When for every system that is known there are thousands that are unknown and at the same time if you place a space station in the space between systems the possible number of points becomes infinitesimally high number. The ability to search, therefore, “every determinable point” becomes quite an impossibility.
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This could also play a part in the engine issue for warships. Comstar might have to sell them sooner, rather then later, to the houses.
For a what if scenario – why stick with the limitations of canon warships – only ComStar can provide engines, except for when WoB takes over, and then every IS House is able to make their own.
Thus the point of ComStar being the only suppliers of warship engines becomes irrelevant.
Q.E.D. Every IS House has the ability to manufacture warship engines from the get-go – they never had to rely upon ComStar! Thus IS Houses should have been able to manufacture warships prior to 3050.
Also wouldn’t R&D upon warship engines over time provide the correct thrust – otherwise why put it in if it cannot keep an adequate velocity to fight. That is you are paying an astronomical amount of money for a defective product – so what’s the point?
With warships – what you want is a pocket battleship – small, fast, agile and yet with the largest Naval grade lasers in multiple turrets … the battleship Bismarck of its time!
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which won't appear twice after the first time the Clans machine gun everyone
Don’t bet on it! So the angry mob didn’t work, big deal!
Do you not remember the Irish war of independence – the time of troubles or how about the Vietnamese – war with the French and then with the Americans … didn’t work then wont work in the future …
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After a few generations, the youthful, un-educated, propaganda-brainwashed populations thought the Falcons were just awesome - it was fertile ground for Operation Hollywood to disrupt.
So all schools were cancelled? So are you saying the Clans are the Taliban of their day? … So how is that working in Afghanistan now? So how will an entire react to a proclamation that all schools are now closed and you are effectively killing of the future of every child on the planet – so as a parent how would you react if you were told your child would never be allowed to be educated? – So, you do realise that this is the spark that will start a flame that will engulf the world in a perpetual war against the Clans until they are all dead and gone!
Also how does this work when you (as the Clans) want to create a highly productive workforce, given that everyone is supposed to be uneducated?
One further point the IS is far more superior to the Clans at creating Hollywood films that that of the Clans – so shouldn’t this work in reverse? How many freeborn should have defected to the IS in the same period?
So the IS ‘fertile ground’ should have been far more destructive to the clans as the IS had to only convince a small number of individuals – where as the Clans had to convince whole planets.
Sorry, but from a marketing perspective the IS Target Market can be narrowed quicker and with a greater precision than that of the Clans – we are NOT a homogeneous market remember there are a vast number of differences that make individuals, individuals. An entire population would have a vast number of groups – try marketing to them all at the same time – good luck with that scenario – so, let me say this is once more THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN – CAN WE HAVE A LITTLE REALISM PLEASE?
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They didn’t have that
I agree with Karagin – there is absolutely no way the Clans can garrison the majority of their captured IS worlds if the majority of the population refuses to be integration system.
Given that some worlds within the IS exceed the entire population of certain clans there is no way they will ever have the troops to garrison their holdings in the IS.
That said TPTB should have come up with a better scenario to get the IS people onto the side of the invader.
Re-write the clans into SLDF Paladins who will bring back the golden age of humanity – any captured world receives an upgrade to essential services – Hospitals – Education – food production. And at the same time are treated with respect and dignity by their new overlords – guess how many will sign on to assist with the Star League revolution to bring back that which was lost?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/15/22 11:31 PM
70.118.172.64
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One thing I don't see ComStar doing is working well with the other Houses. There are centuries of mistrust between them, so that is going to be something not easily put to the side. The FC forces will be the least trusting, and the DC forces will trust to a certain level, but not to the point of entirely having them in on all levels of planning.
I would expect the FC and the DC to have contingency plans in place, ready to go, f ComStar tries to pull a fast one. You know, like abandons a planet or two. Things like that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/16/22 12:00 AM
1.147.88.67
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One thing I don't see ComStar doing is working well with the other Houses. There are centuries of mistrust between them, so that is going to be something not easily put to the side.
No, its not as if its like the English and the French – who have fought against each other for centuries – could put their animosity aside and work together to fight the Germans in two world wars.
Needs must as the Devil drives. Peoples and Countries will form alliances when threated by a common outside threat.
Thus I disagree – if ComStar wants to survive for longer than 5 minutes it will have to join the alliance to fight the Clans. What they will try to do, however, is to push the agreement between all parties in their favour if the can – such as the C.O. of the combined military is ComStar - or to put their people into key positions they can exploit i.e. key person in intelligence who can feed ComStar all the workings of their allies and the enemy – that they can exploit for their own goals.
All the parties will not initially trust the others – trust will take time and the spilling of blood for a common goal.
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I would expect the FC and the DC to have contingency plans in place
There would be multiple contingency plans on contingency plans. As there should be a room somewhere where people just create what if scenarios for their governments and then attempt to determine the best course of action – the ruler would then ask a series of questions and a number of scenarios could then be provided to the ruler from which they could determine the best course of action.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 02:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is a problem with if Comstar pulls out from defending a world that the IS has already pulled out of. At this point, the clans would be close enough to Terra, that if Comstar doesn't defend certain worlds, then Terra is the next fight. This comes from the idea of the FC/DC pulling forces away from near Terra, due to the fear of those forces being surrounded. Like when it was suggested the DC might pull back those forces to defend what they still had.
I was not suggesting the houses contract Comstar to defend them. Comstar would see they had to do something to hurt the clans, maybe even hoping to stop them before they hit Terra.
Hope that clears that up.
Given the fact the clans are close at this point, would Comstar have been pulling forces off worlds the clans already have taken? Or would they 'just start'?
I would think the clans have already figured Comstar was going to fight to prevent them taking Terra, so wouldn't trust them with the HPG network in their area. So it may well be the fighting has already stated on multiple worlds the clans control.
I can see a use for Vlad and the crusaders that followed him in the canon story. I could see Ulric using those very forces to start a large raid on the Falcons, causing them to pull forces off the fighting front, in order to prevent losing worlds to the Wolves. Their loyalty to the Wolves overcoming the idea of them being Crusaders, just as the canon line went, causing even more problems for the Falcons. This would result in Vlad's eventual death, but it would be yet another issue with holding up the Falcons. If you don't like using Vlad, then come up with another warrior that could be motivate to destroy the Falcons where ever they are. Possibly being humiliated by the Falcons in the past.
Which leads to another issue with Phelan. If he does leave the Wolves, timing is definitely needed. Cyril Ward
(I believe her name is), commits suicide to open up the blood name for him. This would not happen if he leaves before hand. She may well be the one that volenteers to take a force and hit the Falcons, rather then the canon suicide.
This also brings up questions of how far out the flankers take territory. The ARDC may never come to exist, which calls into question how the Kell Hounds make out. If Arc-Royal is taken, Morgan loses his noble title and resources of the world and area. I could very well see him doing a lot of raiding in the Falcon's flanks as well. Maybe even becoming a high ranking officer in the FC forces, or at least the LC ones.
If Phelan shows up, it could really help the raiders do some damage to the Falcons.
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Karagin
08/16/22 03:19 PM
70.118.172.64
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If Arc-Royal falls to the Falcons, I do not see Phelan leaving the Wolves. I see him asking Ulric to take in the Hounds or allowing them to join the Dragoons. Natashas would back him on that, I believe. Or, I could see him begging Ulric to let him take Arc-Royal for the Wolves from the Falcons. Also, I could see him playing the political game and taking Vlad with him. This would show he is learning new levels of Great Game and keeping an enemy close.
I could see the Falcons and Vipers pushing well past Thakard and hard towards the FWL border and sweeping up much of the former RWR worlds along the LC's Periphery. Which would play well since it would be more payback for past treasons etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/16/22 03:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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I was referring to ComStar pulling out worlds as things are pushed down towards Terra,
Example: Kochab is a world where the FC and ComStar are dug-in to defend against the Falcons. They have made joint defense plans, etc...then two days after the fighting has started, the ComGuard gets orders to pull out and head for Moore because a ComStar Precentor feels Moore is more important to things in the long run than Kochab. Let that happen a couple of times, and we will see the FC forces start to turn their guns on the ComGuard. Or make it so they "accidentally" pull back their own forces on the planet and leave the ComGuard units facing the full brunt of the attacking Clan units.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 04:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated, when Phelan leaves is very important to the story line. There is so many things that would change, or could change.
And Arc-Royal could well fall to say the Vipers, or another clan, if they are called for. It doesn't have to be the Falcons, though it would add in even more issues with the Falcons issues.
Ok. I understand where you were going with Comstar pulling out. I hadn't thought about them trying to coordinate with the houses. I was just thinking they were left to guard a world, as the IS had moved their forces to better protect or hit the clans weaker points. Much like the discussed concept of them not getting cut off. Guess I didn't put as much thought into it as I should have.
The idea of pushing out from the corridors isn't so much south, but west on the map. Pushing towards Coventry being the idea, verses keeping a shrinking corridor trying to get as many forces to Terra as possible. That is the ultimate goal, and one that the Falcons would pass up taking Defiance and such in order to gain. Once the Ilclan is theirs, then they would deal with Defiance and such.
And no. I don't think they would pass up a golden opportunity if one presented itself. I believe they are more concerned with beating the other clans, then taking territory at this point.
A thought just came up. The crusaders taking Terra could well mean the end of the Wardens as well, as the crusaders would probably push to outlaw the warden thought pattern from the clans. This could well be a means to destroy the Wolves for all of the past humilities they suffered. It would remove the biggest threat to the crusaders.
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Karagin
08/16/22 06:18 PM
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I could see the Crusaders forcing a change in how the Wolves self-govern if, say, the Falcons get Terra. However, at this point, I don't see the Crusader Khan of the Falcon's caring much about Warden or Crusader politics being a big issue until the entire Inner Sphere is under the banner of the ilClan.
Remember, the Crusaders want to control ALL of the Inner Sphere under the new ideal of a Star League they set up. So, until they have crushed the last House military unit, they will play friendly with each Clan seeing how they will need troops to fight the Houses.
Phelan is a topic that we need to figure out what he offers from all angles. We have one version (canon), so what would things look like from each counterpoint? He stays with the Wolves, similar to Canon, but no Truce happens, and we have the Wolves howling right on the door of Terra. He stays with the Wolves but never makes it far in the ranks. He escapes and runs to daddy with some tech specs and maybe a mech. He stays with the Wolves and is off fighting the Falcons to keep things under control for Ulric and the LC population content in the rear. Not like that's going to work well on worlds away from the borders. Folks who aren't used to being beaten down will push back after a while.
He might be a separate topic that we can address in more detail, looking at different points about him.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/16/22 06:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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I believe we can not finish this thread without knowing what happens to Phelan and when. Canon has him taking a world without a shot. If he leaves before then, then that does not happen. So that changes a few things, including embarrassing the other clans, and forwarding the notion that freeborns are not the worthless garbage promoted by most of the clans.
There are other possibilities that can be done with him, that are not even considered in canon. One being a diplomat or envoy of the Wolves to the rest of the IS. As the Warden agenda is not to take over the entire IS, but guard it, would that become the way of the entire clans if the Wolves become the Ilclan? I doubt the crusaders would let the slide for long, but not sure how much they could really do without the political position of Ilclan.
But I do agree there is a lot of potential in dealing with just what if with Phelan. One big what if would be if he did not let Natasha have the extra kill? She would have let him die, according to her own words. And she would not be a star Colonel either. Cyril not having to suicide changes things as well. And he would not be there to help Ulric in the future. This is assuming the treason trial does not happen as well.
As for the Crusaders changing the clans if they won, I believe they would force the Wardens to be absorbed into the other clans, to make sure the warden ideology doesn't spread among the clans. With this thread, it seems the Wolves don't have to worry about that, though not sure if the others would try to initiate a trial of absorbtion in the future.
A possible outcome might be Phelan does escape, and brings enough tech to help hold the clans to Terra and their corridors, and get a stale mate. Maybe even retake a few worlds. Nothing to force the clans out, but enough to weaken the crusaders hold over the clans beyond them losing to the Wolves.
One such tech could be the lesser crit needing normal weapons. This could open up units to carrying more heat sinks, as crit room would not be so tight in some units. That little fact seems to be missing in the rule books since the clan invasion. There doesn't seem to be a notation or even table set up showing this.
I would think this little fact is retconned out of the game because it allows the IS to get closer to the clans tech advantage.
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Karagin
08/16/22 06:58 PM
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All good points to look at. We can toss something things around.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/16/22 09:16 PM
1.147.88.67
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if Comstar doesn't defend certain worlds, then Terra is the next fight
If the Clans are that close then maybe the best thing you could do is concentrate all your forces on one world and fight the final fight.
But if the Clans are that close then it might be time to realise that ComStar’s (and the IS’s) forces have already lost Terra – time to evacuate and declare the world Open.
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… due to the fear of those forces being surrounded
You do realise that surrounding your forces in space is an impossibility – being marooned however is another topic all together.
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the DC might pull back those forces to defend what they still had.
Again … you do realise the clans are moving in a straight line, that said it is very easy to quantify what is remaining especially when the Clans are tapering (narrowing) their invasion corridor to conserve resources. Thus the number of worlds the DC has can be easily quantified – they still have a great empire at hand if and when the Clans take Terra.
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… houses contract Comstar to defend them
You do realise that the Com Guard are not a mercenary unit to be bought and sold.
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… maybe even hoping to stop them before they hit Terra
This can only be done if all become one to form a single SLDF.
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would Comstar have been pulling forces off worlds the clans already have taken? Or would they 'just start'?
Ha? If the Clans have taken a world this means that they have pacified it already – i.e. all forces have been either destroyed or captured. Thus there will be no Com Guard forces to evacuate.
So if you want any Com Guard forces best evacuate them either prior to invasion or during the invasion – as post invasion there will be no Com Guard to evacuate.
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I would think the clans have already figured Comstar was going to fight to prevent them taking Terra, so wouldn't trust them with the HPG network in their area.
Yes the existence of the Com Guard would be known by the Clans – what wasn’t known was if ComStar would fight, as all they were demonstrating to date was that of a pacifist .
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So it may well be the fighting has already stated on multiple worlds the clans control.
ComStar was acting as the mediator between the Clans and that of the people of the world they were on. That said – no Comstar acolyte was engaged in open hostilities with the Clans – the people of any world however would be engaged in partisan activity against the Clans.
So the question becomes are ComStar’s people are assisting the partisans (covertly)?
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I could see Ulric using those very forces to start a large raid on the Falcons, causing them to pull forces off the fighting front, in order to prevent losing worlds to the Wolves
And if Marthe Pryde is as intelligent as I believe she is, she will see this a great opportunity.
Pull her forces off these worlds of no real strategic value. Give them to the Wolves – now they will have to garrison these worlds with their forces (thus reducing the number of their front line forces). Whist at the same time increasing the number of her Jade Falcon front line forces to continue the fight, and possibly increase their velocity, to reaching Terra first.
So own goal for the Wolves!
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This would result in Vlad's eventual death
Yay, Katrina now has no Clan entanglements!
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Phelan Kell-Ward
Cyrilla Ward – suicide 3052 https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cyrilla_Ward
Question how difficult is it to use the Wiki to find this information?
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The ARDC may never come to exist
Depends on the GM / players and how they would structure the history of their what if / Alt. History game.
THE ARDC could have been established by Melissa Steiner and Morgan Hasek-Davion at the fist Stages of the War of Invasion as Commander of the AFFC will use it as a means of fighting the clans. Create a separate area with a dedicated Lord (Morgan Kell) who’s duty is to assist with the war of attrition / partisan strikes / attacking Clan logistic transports / assisting with PsyOps / Assisting with OpFor training etc. Thus by having a dedicated Lord for this area, this will provide the AFFC with an easier time when it comes to combating the Clans – gets rid of the red tape as it were.
Thus the ARDC will now stretch the entire length of the Clan Invasion Corridor.
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If Arc-Royal is taken, Morgan loses his noble title and resources of the world and area
Sorry but no Morgan does not loose his noble title – this is not a cracker jack prize – he retains his title (though in absentia / exile is noted against his title – remember the king of Norway etc when he was in exile in England during WW2)
His resources however are lost if Arc Royal is taken.
if Phelan and the wolves in exile turn up – this means the Wolves / Falcons have undergone a war – What this will also mean is the Forces under his Father and Morgan Hasek-Davion will now be invading both Falcon / Wolf space with the aim of reclaiming lost territory – destroying / capturing both the Falcons / Wolves.
If Phelan is turning up on his own – he is an IS spy / Clan Warden representative bringing valuable information to the IS ….
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If Arc-Royal falls to the Falcons, I do not see Phelan leaving the Wolves. I see him asking Ulric to take in the Hounds or allowing them to join the Dragoons.
I’m sorry but you have lost me here.
Taking in the Hounds – you do realise that the Kell Hounds are a Zealot force dedicated to the Lyran people and especially Melissa Steiner (They are Heimdall – the loyal opposition remember) (also Morgan Kell would view Melissa as a daughter to him) and they are not some kind of pet for the clans to adopt!
As for the Dragoons – they are an independent / renegade military unit as far as the Wolves are concerned who are also traitors to the Clans – thus Ulric has no say in what they do – as far as he is concerned they are to killed on sight!
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Natasha would back him on that
Natasha is of a ‘grandmotherly’ age so her only position would be either in a solhama unit or on a retirement on Outreach.
As how is someone her age expected to win a trial of position against a twenty something in the peak of their prime?
A little reality please.
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Or, I could see him begging Ulric to let him take Arc-Royal for the Wolves
Outside of the invasion corridor and how are the wolves expected to garrison and provide a logistics network through the Falcons to maintain this world? Sorry but a wast of resources to even consider this a possibility as Ulric needs to keep his eye on the prize as it were – i.e. Terra.
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I could see the Falcons and Vipers pushing well past Thakard and hard towards the FWL border and sweeping up much of the former RWR worlds along the LC's Periphery.
First Tharkad is so far distant from their invasion corridor towards Terra you have to ask what the point is - massive requirement in Logistics and manpower that could be better utilized in reaching Terra first.
Second taking former RWR worlds - what is the point? as most are now barren wastelands with nothing to offer – also strategically they are along the periphery border far form anything of any real importance – the real action and the real fame is in taking Terra and every world close to Terra – that includes all FWL worlds close to Terra.
Also if you want to go this far from the invasion corridor wouldn’t the Falcons be contemplating this Post Capture of Terra – not Pre Capture as you are just diverting troops and logistics that could be better utilized in taking Terra in the first place.
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Let that happen a couple of times, and we will see the FC forces start to turn their guns on the ComGuard.
This is why you need a centralized chain of command!
In this eventuality the FC have no choice but to make heir plans with the absence of the Com Guard in mind.
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Or make it so they "accidentally" pull back their own forces on the planet and leave the ComGuard units facing the full brunt of the attacking Clan units.
And by now these childish antics have ensured that the new SL and the new SLDF will never be formed as there is no trust.
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when Phelan leaves is very important to the story line
No what happens to Phelan when captured is what is important – is he going to be a spy for the IS or will he become Khan this is what is important …
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Arc-Royal could well fall to say the Vipers
Only after one hell of a massive battle(s) involving a massive number of units.
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Once the Ilclan is theirs, then they would deal with Defiance and such.
Yes.
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I believe they are more concerned with beating the other clans, then taking territory at this point.
Yes.
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The crusaders taking Terra could well mean the end of the Wardens as well
No not necessarily – the warden / crusader ideology will transfer over to how they expect to treat the captured IS civilians – crusaders, little better than slaves as they are only barbarians; wardens – must educate them to see the error of their ways.
So no destroying of clans – as you want to make the wardens to admit their error, rather than destroying them – it is more fun to rub their noses in the dirt as it were!
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forcing a change in how the Wolves self-govern
Sorry but this is only achieved after a Trial of Absorption.
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they will play friendly with each Clan seeing how they will need troops to fight the Houses
Sorry again but no – if a Clan becomes weak it should be either destroyed or absorbed – this is the true way of the Clans!
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being a diplomat or envoy of the Wolves to the rest of the IS
When and what is his remit / aims?
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the Crusaders changing the clans if they won, I believe they would force the Wardens to be absorbed into the other clans
And what ever is left over – expect them to picked over by the forces of the IS.
Just remember the sibko – how are all the clans expected to replace all the lost warriors after such a massive internal civil war.
Also what happens to your precious Crusader faction if the Wardens win the majority of the Trial of Absorptions? This will put the Crusader faction on the back foot.
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Phelan does escape, and brings enough tech to help hold the clans to Terra and their corridors, and get a stale mate
When does this occur – remember it will take a considerable amount of time to re-tool the entire IS military industrial complex – and for them to produce new tech in numbers to replace existing tech – and for it them to be shipped to the front and be intergrated into existing forces for their use.
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allows the IS to get closer to the clans tech advantage.
Given that the only reason the IS couldn’t reverse engineer Clan tech was it was too expensive – all I can say is that no one has ever perused the military budget lately.
There is no such thing as too expensive – it is just ordered no matter the cost.
Thus the military is happy and the military industrial complex is happy – massive profit margin and dividend this year!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/17/22 02:57 PM
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I say we go with Phelan saving Ulric and Vlad after the suicide run event. This causes a change to the use of Warships by the Clans since they now see a significant weakness and need to fix it. Phelan returns to his own when he takes a world with no shots fired. That puts him on a level that Ulric sees both Khan's leadership level and a bridge between the Inner Sphere and the Clans. So he starts to groom him for both roles with Natasha's help.
Using her contacts with the Dragoons, they let Morgan know Phelan is alive and that Ulric wants to talk. This could be how Ulric, in a roundabout way, starts to aid the Inner Sphere while still pushing to get his Clan on Terra and thus winning to prevent the bloodbath he fears from a Crusader victory. Phelan retains importance as a central figure and Khan but doesn't overshadow anyone else too much. Tweak as you want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/17/22 07:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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That sounds pretty good.
What happens with Phelan's rep after the IS learns he was the one taking Gunzburg without a shot? I know there will have to be answers to this and a few other things, as there will be those that hated him, trying to turn him into a traitor, which might actually be true. But I can see those people starting up something that they can't control and get killed for.
If Phelan can prove his actions have allowed him to 'bargain' for a stop of the invasion outside of Terra and the corridors, most may well accept this, and 'forgive' him. Some may well praise him for teaching the FRR a lesson in treating others with some sort of respect. Again, possible things to look over.
Now a few more questions.
Does Morgan use his position and authority to help Phelan get the high level discussions going to at least reduce the crusaders influence over the others?
It may just be something like having the Falcons meet the Kell Hounds and a few others in combat on a world, much like Tukayid, but no truce with it. Just to show the crusaders how much surprise and comstar keeping the coms shut down in the IS actively helped the crusaders during the first part, and showing what happens when the crusaders are not striking from the shadows, or having Comstar keep the hits quiet.
This would enrage most of the invasion clans as it would be shown as the truth, that they did NOT follow traditions in their dealings with the first couple of waves. It could, but doubtful it would, cause so much shame on the Falcons and Jaguars, the other crusaders yank them out of the IS for their lack of honor in not challenging and broadcasting their victories, like a true clan would.
Or it could force a large trial of refusal, and set forth a new round of trials to see if others will replace them in the IS.
A little out there, but something that could work.
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Requiem
08/17/22 10:15 PM
1.147.88.67
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What happens with Phelan's rep after the IS learns he was the one taking Gunzburg without a shot?
This is only achieved if someone sends a message out just after the surrender via HPG.
As shortly thereafter ComStar Acolytes have been ordered to assist Clans with transfer of power management - thus no HPG messages will be allowed from this point onward – i.e. radio blackout!
The only other means is via Black Box – however as this is a FRR world they should not have one. That is unless there is either a FC or DC spy with a Black box – and if used then their opposite number should have been able to pick up the message also!
So that puts the kibosh on that scenario.
Thus back to the HPG scenario.
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If Phelan can prove his actions have allowed him to 'bargain' …
Way too late for that … he was in a mech shooting at allied forces … he is now an enemy combatant, and will be treated as such!
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Does Morgan use his position and authority to help Phelan get the high level discussions going to at least reduce the crusaders influence over the others?
Depends on how this is set up and what he is offering and the person within the Clans that he is representing …
He will have to tread very carefully, first contact with the FC could be his last .. he will also have to get to someone whom believes his credentials as a Clan diplomatic envoy … and not as a traitor that needs to be shot on sight.
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Phelan betraying ComStar
This will get political very fast … expect someone to put a bounty on Phelan’s head for this!
That said, however, can ComStar survive such a revelation – all of the first circuit will have to go to appease the remaining House Lords, plus the ComGuars and all their resources will be provided to - AFFC, AF-FRR, DCMS at the minimum.
Also all HPGs in the Clan OZ will now go partisan – supplying info to all IS Houses.
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cause so much shame on the Falcons and Jaguars, the other crusaders yank them out of the IS
Not going to happen – they are not fighting fellow Clans – they are fighting Barbarian IS sur-rats so no loss in hour as honourable fighting is only between true warriors – fellow clansmen and women.
So, no I doubt this would work.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/18/22 12:07 AM
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I don't see Morgan going through that kind of trouble. I see him doing something like Jamie did, taking things right to Hanse and Theodore, getting them to see the issues inside the Clans on the political levels.
Then he can offer some updates that Phelan might have given as to what the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedCom, so they see how serious Ulric is. The information given could be on the levels of what each Clan is doing to deal with issues internally or what they have as weaknesses, things like that.
Yeah, many things can spin from here, depending on how well Morgan can convince Hanse and Theodore to listen. He will most likely need Jamie's help on that endeavor. Even then, it will be a hard sell. When you look at things, a lot of blood has been spilled. The Clans are now replacing a lot of the hate many had for the neighboring nations. So going forward, it's going to be a tough sell to get on the borders of Clans space not to be trusting when it comes to the Clans. Something that should still be an issue even in the current canon.
Phelan should be necessary but not on the level he was in the original canon. He might hold fame and be saKahn of the Wolves, but his footprint won't be the same level as long as Ulric lives and the Wolves take Terra. Even with his role as Ambassador, he is just one cog in the machine that Ulric is piloting to put his Wolves on Terra.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/18/22 11:20 AM
45.51.181.83
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The argument of a lot of blood is spilled is the entire history of the succession wars, with the big exception is it being fresh and still happening. The counter to this, comes from the fact the clans are not one to just destroy a city for the hell of it. They go after the enemy, no matter where they are. If the defenders do not hide in a city, then they try to avoid the collateral damage the succession wars did.
This is not saying the dead warriors and the few citizens that stood up to them is to be forgotten. The clans were not known for hiding in cities, though I do suspect they would if they were really desperate.
The politics of the clans is much like the IS. Each nation has their own quirks. No one can really predict what the CC will do, and that is partially true with the clans. For being tradition bound, the Jaguars and Falcons violated some of the traditions held dearly by the clans. They would have had to have known the IS had no idea on their batchall, so would not deal with it as the clans do. That is if it was even issued, like the Falcons didn't during the initial invasion.
Knowing such things would definitely help the IS when dealing with them. Calling out the lack of honor would force even the members of that clan to feel the shame of ignoring their traditions, and make the commanding people look weak and dishonorable. Yes, it would also enrage them as they got called out by less the dezgra bandits.
TPTB put Phelan into a very powerful position for the story line. It is interesting that he did not play a much bigger part in the later stories. With the knowledge he did bring to Arc-Royal, I would think they would have had an SDS system working, though that retcon would have removed the Falcons taking out the sibko set up there. It would also remove the ability for land combat in almost all situations.
This also calls into question on why the clans didn't have the SDS guarding the genetic repositories. The Wolverines situation would never have occurred if it did. The fighter would never have made it to the position to be shot down.
Even just a few ground based naval weapons would have stopped the slaughter of the children.
There is also the issue of the clans ways were not resisted on Arc-Royal. No matter what, the people would be protesting the clans ways, as they would have spilled into normal life in the area. Even wardens would be highly arrogant and expect the populace to obey the warriors demands.
But this might not happen as the Falcon-Wolf war does not happen.
i guess figuring out just how far the clans get is necessary for other worlds such as possibly hitting the FWL or taking Tharkad. This changes a lot of things on just how the IS would even try to deal with the clans. Almost everything would have to be rewritten for the future.
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Karagin
08/18/22 09:42 PM
70.118.172.64
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I don't see the Arc-Royal thread being important once things change in this version of events. While Phelan remains important he is not the second coming of anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/18/22 09:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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I would think Arc-Royal would be under clan rule if the clans did spread out from the corridor concept. Or be part of the resistance to it.
The thoughts came up thinking about how different things became important. Granted the only reason the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon came into existence was to remove a chunk of the LC/LA out of Katherine hands, during the Civil war.
The idea of Phelan helping ease the issues between clan and IS was just to try and avoid a full take over from the Clans, or start a full scale death match between them.
It could be possible that Phelan is killed by someone once they figure out who he is, and what he became to the clans. I can see him believing he is immune to being sniped as his father is Morgan Kell, so doesn't believe he needs protection while moving among worlds of the of LC. His part could well have played out before Terra is fully taken, or even before.
This may also push Ulric into being that much harsher on the Comstar defenders, as they may well have been the ones to do so. The same effect could happen to Natasha, depending on if she is still alive at this point.
As a side note, if Comstar did pop Phelan, this could have a very nasty effect on Morgan and even the Dragoons.
If Phelan becomes Khan of the Wolves, then there is a problem. He would become the big focus. I would suggest he either get killed or embarrassed so this doesn't happen.
Though this could be used to tarnish his reputation and rise. If alive, how does he handle the old LC commanders that he thought were social generals?
How does he handle the IS being the head of the Ilclan?
Does it go to his head? I think removal is a better way to go.
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Karagin
08/18/22 10:39 PM
70.118.172.64
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He would be just a Khan of the Wolves, not the ilKhan; the Clan still needs a Khan. And he is only a saKhan. Natasha is the Khan.
He would not be running wacking off heads as others might. He would be more concerned with how the Wolves' caste system played out with the conquered planets and how the people integrated. Now he would like to be a target for rebels and other groups. That right there could be an excellent way to keep him limited in the scope of overall importance, since he will be dealing with all of that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/19/22 02:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Not sure if Natasha will outlive Ulric. When they take Terra, the Ilkhan will be passed down to the next in line, or so it would be assumed. Even if Natasha did inherit it, unless battle takes Phelan, he would be in line for the title. Granted, it could be taken out of his hands by a successful challenge by another, though definitely keeping Vlad out of this story line.
Prince Ragnar is another thing that hasn't been discussed. Does he rise to even Star Captain, as he does not have any sort of blood name he could get, being a freeborn.
Reinforcements for all, not just the Wolves should be gone over as well. Unless they had increased the amount of sibkos years before the vote, would a reavening happen? Or something else done to keep the numbers there?
The wolves would use the PGCs, but even they are limited, and any stigma might prevent the trueborn front line warriors from accepting them into their units. Bondsmen could solve part of this issue. Just not sure how much of it.
Do you think at least the Wolves might start using vehicles in the front lines? This could help to offset some of the losses they would suffer. The biggest issue is the agreed upon bid. Though not sure if the Wolves actually had one. They were forced into the invasion, but I don't recall a bid for what they would bring. I think it was just stating what they were going to bring and that was it. The fact they only had 2 warships with them suggests there was a simple statement, not a bid.
As a full roster of the clans that did participate is not available, it does question on how many units each still have in the home worlds. The fact the Bears brought their people into the IS should mean they have more then a few units that were not part of the bid to draw from, and without anything back home, they would have a major advantage to replace warriors that were hurt.
I will suggest the Wolves thought this out and had a few 'extra guards' on their supply ships, so they could take them and put them into the units as needed. Not a full fix, but enough to keep units somewhat intact. It might also be an idea to have them build a station near the IS that they could assemble mechs that were taken apart so they could ship more of them without the need for mech carrying dropships. This could also be just something on world, instead of a station. An inflatable building like the Dragoons had in their canon story might work well here.
I would also think having a yardship some where close would be another idea to help keep them in good shape.
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ghostrider
08/19/22 02:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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Do you think that the people that were to become WOB, would go rogue and actually attack the clans without orders?
Or would they propose the Comstar actually surrender or become an extension of the clans?
As the split was just a power grab, cloaked in the righteousness of religion, both questions sound like neither would be the outcome. I would believe they would be the first to break and run, possibly to the FWL and the fake Thomas before the clans could take Terra. But losing Terra removes a large chunk of their power hold they had in canon.
It does remove their 'tech' jump as well.
The SDS system really needs it's own thread to discuss just how screwed up the history of canon is with that retcon.
The system would have made the clans different then what we got. The clans would have had to focus more on space craft more then what they did. As they did have warship battles, this system would have pushed for better spacecraft.
And none of the canon ships have any sort of system on it that operates like it, or counters it, that I know of.
It is probable that if the clans did have this on their warships, the suicide run would have failed.
I believe it could also act like an AMS as well. Maybe even taking out capital missiles. They could also be used as a screen against enemy fire, by getting in the line of fire, hoping to block some shots.
The DC side with their bushido outlook would be a mess. If following it closely, the DCMS may well be destroyed about the time the clans hit Luthien. I can see the troops staying far to long, and losing so much machinery, that they could not field much in a short time frame. This would also be compounded by the Black Dragon Society. Their strikes may well inflame the Jaguars and Cats to the point of making more collateral damage then normal for a clan fight. Maybe even having them specifically destroying jumpships to make sure it could not happen again.
Which also brings up the point of jumpships in general.
Would the clans target them anyways?
As the clans were not hurting for jumpships, I think they would eventually see that as a way to lock the enemy in place on worlds.
I could see this being a major reason why they are able to take Terra, as the IS would have issues trying to respond to anything they did. No transports to even shift additional forces to world under attack, or even try counter attacks.
Until warships get on the scene, this could really limit the IS.
It may also support the CC strike on the FC. The CC would have ships to use, while the FC could be hurting badly, they couldn't more forces to counter them.
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Karagin
08/19/22 07:48 PM
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The folks who might follow WoB will either join a faction or they will be one of the many who do something regardless. They are going those who are not going to be happy with the changes of power and will lash out.
Losing Terra means they lost Terra. If ComStar falls apart after that, they are truly just a corporation playing at being a government. I don't see them being anything of importance if they split. Parts will run for whoever will take them. Again, the majority who want the religion and such will flock to the FWL because their fake Thomas will welcome them since he can use them to keep his butt on the throne, and they will try to rebuild. The FWL might gain better HPG service for a while, but that's about it. I do not see a twenty-one-year buildup of insane military superpower that rips apart the Inner Sphere.
The FWL will not be picky, but they will also be rushing to deal with the Clans that, in this version of things, will be right on their borders. So the new neighbors will be expected to help now, not in two decades. So no, there will be nothing like the silliness of the WoB and their ubermensch insanity.
The parts of ComStar in the CC will likely end up working for the Maskirovka. They will be there with the Death Commandos, taking the HPGs in the name of House Laio and ensuring they have the technology and ability to contact their agents around the Inner Sphere and control what is coming into the CapCon.
The Combine and their Bushido could be a two-edged sword, yes, some units will stand far too long and lose badly, but the newer units or those retrained under officers Theodore put in place will fall back and adjust to tactical changes. That was proven when his son took charge of things and was forced off the planet as things went pear-shaped. So it could be a weakness, but one that its ending would help not hurt the Combine. They can have the honor code, but not to the point of asinine insanity.
The SDS. That is something of an issue yes, now if we go with the version of things that the Sol System is indeed FUBAR as we are told, doubtful even back in the day, then yes, it would mean that the Wolves hitting the system would not have to deal with it, since ComStar would not have rebuilt it. Yet, we know Kerensky was already repairing stuff IN the Sol System after the SLDF retook it from Amaris. So that would be one of the first things they would be working on. Now would the SDS be up to full strength and able to match the levels of the SL era? Doubtful, but it would be at least partially operational, which would be enough to keep the House militaries away from the Sol System and thus keeping ComStar's control in place.
Remember, all the books we read are normally written and presented to use BY ComStar. So things are going to be slanted or "edited" a bit.
At some point, one or more of the Houses would have ordered more jumpships; it would make sense to have new ones coming off the lines since they still have factories to make the ships for the most part. Would the numbers be enough to have huge fleets? No, but then again, recall, no one had massive warship fleets. What they had were Fleets In Being. That means they have some ships that look dangerous and pretty, but no one will risk them because they can't afford to replace them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/19/22 08:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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The reason for bringing up the SDS system was because the SLDF would have taken that tech with them, yet the retcon didn't put the information in with the clans.
This is important if it stays in the what if, as it would radically change the clans on how they operate, as they would have a larger emphasis on aero forces.
The warships and even dropships used would probably have some sort of system on them, making the suicide run unlikely to work.
It would also mean the clans would have figured out a way to lessen or even nullify the system. By code or maybe the advanced ECM they use could do so.
This could also be used to surprise IS forces into committing an attack on an area that has such a system, probably waiting until they were fully committed in order to bag the most ships they could. I would think being burned a couple of times would make the IS very leery of even trying an attack or raid on a world held for a while by the clans.
The irony of Comstar giving out the intel in a lot of books would mean they knew of the black boxes for writing them, including the 4th war. This is not going to effect the thread, but just another oooops by TPTB.
The risk of the clans targeting the jumpships is very dangerous to the IS. Not trying to make a huge fleet, but losing what they have, forcing even more sacrifices, as they would not be able to jump as many forces into other systems. Might even have to go with leaving any forces in a system, as they could not risk trying to get them out if there is a clan presence there.
There is no doubt that the houses would have ordered larger orders of jumpships. That is a given in a time of war. But would it be enough? Or soon enough to make a difference?
If we go with jumpships being targets, this becomes even more problematic.
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Requiem
08/19/22 08:55 PM
1.147.88.67
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Morgan going through that kind of trouble
Morgan Kell will have to communicate through the Marshal of the Armies – Morgan Hasek-Davion.
The problem is Nondi Steiner – she would most definitely be in the Phelan is a traitor to the Lyran People – let’s put him up against the wall and shoot him Camp.
The real question is will Morgan Hasek-Davion listen to a request by the wardens – and will he be able to get Hanse / Melissa on board?
This will require a face to face summit Ulric / Morgan Hasek-Davion to iron out their request(s) for the future – Again will Nondi allow this to even occur?
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what the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedComwhat the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedComwhat the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedCom
Until they are joined in battle against a common enemy Ulric will not betray his fellow Clans – his code of hour will not allow it.
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He might hold fame and be saKahn of the Wolves
Again forgetting Clan’s DNA racial purity requirements.
Half of his DNA may be recognised as from a “Clan Originator” strain – however, the other half is purely IS – his overall DNA is not pure enough. Also he was brought up within the IS – he was never brought up via a true Clan sibko within the Kerensky Cluster – He was a BondsMan!
Therefore, he will never have the political support form his fellow warriors who are true racially pure clan warriors to be allowed to take command of sqat!
TPTB cannot create a society based upon racial purity then say we can break this rule – get a grip, once this is in place it is in place! Phelan is not pure enough (DNA and place of birth) to be allowed to obtain a high rank within the Clans it is just wrong!
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the clans are not one to just destroy a city for the hell of it
And Turtle Bay never occurred …
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No one can really predict what the CC will do
And moving in a straight line is too difficult to predict …. Also captured Clansman once becoming IS bondsman (POWs) are known for being soooo tight lipped on discussing why the Clans are superior to the IS and why the IS should give up …
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They would have had to have known the IS had no idea on their batchall
And Wolfs Dragoons never explained this …
Anastasius Focht – no he didn’t ever understand this to the point of destroying most clans!
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It is interesting that he did not play a much bigger part in the later stories.
Really? How many other characters merc. units were just written out – the story is rife with killing off anyone they didn’t want … This is why the Jihad era and everything else becomes a pitiful story line …
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would have had an SDS system working
Only on Camelot Command and Terra – and no it does not remove land combat … this is why here needs to be rules of war established post Turtle Bay otherwise the story just becomes pointless to the point of stupidity.
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why the clans didn't have the SDS guarding the genetic repositories
Because they don’t need to may be the point – the fate of the wolverines makes this crystal clear why you do not have to guard the repository.
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Even just a few ground based naval weapons would have stopped the slaughter of the children.
Sorry do not know what this applies to? Elucidate please.
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the clans ways were not resisted on Arc-Royal
Could that be due to the fact that one – they are not attacking anyone – and two they are not converting anyone to a Clansman – and three they are there to defend the IS from the other Clans – and four they are commanded by Morgan Kell’s son the Liege Lord of the Planet?
So protesting is pointless …. Unless they step out of line and do something stupid.
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the Falcon-Wolf war does not happen
Then how does Phelan and his wolves get to Arc Royal without the Falcon-Wolf War?
Also if the wolves went rogue wouldn’t all other clans be duty bound to initiate a trial of annihilation against them for going rogue?
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I don't see the Arc-Royal thread being important
No not important at all – Arc Royal is only harbouring clan traitors – this isn’t important at all – the falcons would just ignore them …..
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the only reason the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon came into existence was to remove a chunk of the LC/LA out of Katherine hands, during the Civil war.
And Morgan Hasek-Davion wouldn’t create it as a means to fighting the clans on a broad front …
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It could be possible that Phelan is killed by someone once they figure out who he is
Nondi Steiner and ComStar – though if proof of ComStar’s perfidy has been supplied it is a little bit too late to close the door after the horse has bolted.
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I can see him believing he is immune to being sniped
Yes he is that arrogant …
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This may also push Ulric into being that much harsher on the Comstar defenders
Problem – they are now his allies if he goes down the Warden Vs Crusader War scenario ….
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Natasha
Can someone remember how old she is?
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if Comstar did pop Phelan, this could have a very nasty effect on Morgan and even the Dragoons.
Proof they did it first … given their track record of killing off individuals it is highly unlikely that they will be caught.
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If Phelan becomes Khan of the Wolves, then there is a problem. He would become the big focus.
Yes every Clansman who believes that they are more racially pure than him will desire to kill him … as he is “mud-blood” (Harry Potter) and not pure in his DNA.
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How does he handle the IS being the head of the Ilclan?
Problem – he in now in command of renegade clan force – kill on sight – thus making his ability to Il-Khan and Il-Clan highly dubious in the eyes of true Clansman.
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Not sure if Natasha will outlive Ulric.
Can someone explain how Natasha is even in this story given her age?
Also 3050 – Ulric is 53. Natasha is 77.
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Prince Ragnar
Really? He is an IS Bondsman who passed his trial of position – 100% freeborn – PGC commander only!
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Reinforcements for all, not just the Wolves should be gone over as well. Unless they had increased the amount of sibkos years before the vote, would a reaving happen? Or something else done to keep the numbers there?
Once loss depletion level reached critical levels – clans have two serious options – trials of reaving upon other clans or trial of absorption – or one they would not consider – more freeborn warriors (same as IS).
Sorry but any real sibko numbers increase is going to take 18 years at a minimum – so can we get a little reality in the game.
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Bondsmen could solve part of this issue.
Can I laugh now?
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the Wolves might start using vehicles in the front lines
1. Where are they getting these vehicles from – are they built in the IS?
2. Who is going to crew them – the wolves believe in one person to a vehicle – so unless these vehicles are also one person only who is going to accept the humiliation of becoming part of a crew within a vehicle.
3. Why create a warrior crew for 1 vehicle when each person in that vehicle should be an independent warrior with their own vehicle? Mentality …
Offset losses – first you will have to change clan wolf’s mentality / traditions etc - so not going to happen any time soon.
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As a full roster of the clans that did participate is not available
Really?
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The fact the Bears brought their people into the IS
And if you do the mathematics of this it is shown that this is impossible unless they had hundreds of transport ships – and as they didn’t this becomes impossible!
Reality Please!
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I will suggest the Wolves thought this out and had a few 'extra guards' on their supply ships
Why bother TPTB forbid the IS or other Clans from attacking these logistics ships?
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Do you think that the people that were to become WOB, would go rogue and actually attack the clans without orders?
First how has the schism within the ComGuard even occurred yet to form the WoB?
Second – does anyone want to go against Anastasius Focht at this point in time by disobeying his orders?
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Or would they propose the Comstar actually surrender or become an extension of the clans?
Really? No Really? With Anastasius Focht in charge of the ComGuard?
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But losing Terra removes a large chunk of their power hold they had in canon.
Really? I guess the concept of government in exile was never considered – just like when WoB conquered Terra?
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SDS system
Doesn’t fit with their Bidding / Trial of …. Circle of equals style of combat – was just ignored and forgotten until IS started using it.
Even then it is computer AI – no true warrior would use such a system – no honour in using it!
This is why they use Aerospace fighters – with warriors - with their ships – honourable fighting!
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The DC side with their bushido outlook would be a mess.
Problem – Theodore has reformed this.
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having them specifically destroying jumpships
Problem – this is a waste of resources – more efficient to capture and use them for the glory of the Clans.
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Until warships get on the scene
And the IS stop using Nukes like candy on the Clans!
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It may also support the CC strike on the FC.
Except that in any real setting the CC no longer exist!
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the FC could be hurting badly, they couldn't more forces to counter them.
Can someone explain that if the fictional CC invaded the FS side of the FC how vast is their military industrial complexes?
With the FS still operational the fictional CC are going to get decimated.
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I don't see them being anything of importance if they split.
Jihad – WoB Forces on the hidden worlds?
I do see a twenty-one-year buildup of insane military superpower that rips apart the Clan’s Inner Sphere.
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they will also be rushing to deal with the Clans
Problem – the clans do not deal with IS surrat governments. Just hurry up and die would be the response.
And yes the WoB insanity will be part of an IS future.
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The parts of ComStar in the CC will likely end up working for the Maskirovka.
Sorry but an ultra police state does not work well with others.
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They can have the honour code, but not to the point of asinine insanity.
Thankyou.
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So that would be one of the first things they would be working on.
In secret yes they would! Provides an excellent invasion deterrent if they finally get caught meddling with the IS …
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So things are going to be slanted or "edited" a bit.
A bit!
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Would the numbers be enough to have huge fleets?
In TPTB universe – not a hope.
In a universe built in reality – not a problem. (Liberty ships WW2)
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SDS system
So how does a SDS system work in an era of circles of equals – something like robot wars – two geeks with AIs battling it out with their SDS systems in deep space – where is the hour in this?
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I would think being burned a couple of times would make the IS very leery of even trying an attack or raid on a world held for a while by the clans.
You do realise we are back to using nukes as a first strike weapon to take out the SDS platforms prior to invasion …
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The risk of the clans targeting the jumpships is very dangerous to the IS.
Let me guess TPTB have decreed that the IS are not allowed to target Clan Jumpships whist at the same time Clans are allowed to target IS Jumpships?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/19/22 10:44 PM
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I am sure the Clan Homeworlds would have the SDS tech in place or something similar or better by this point. Aerospace-wise, the Clans have a more significant force, but keep in mind that they are still a ground-based force. Things folks forget, fighters and warships are grand weapons and tools, but they don't do any good if you can't control the planets they orbit or land on. So mechs, infantry, vehicles, etc...will still be the primary forces of war. And as much as it upsets the flyboys, aerospace assets are nothing more than combat support platforms. They are one part of the machine that wins wars.
ECM should be standard in Clan mechs. It should be part of the standard setup. Their tech should have made things like the Guardian and Beagle Systems standard equipment packages on the mechs, etc...
I said most of the books, the first time the black boxes come up are in the novels, and then the 20-year Update, which is from a Dragoons WolfNet report.
The Clans would target jumpships, not to destroy but to capture. That way, they get more ships for their use without bringing in more from the homeworlds. All the while denying the enemy of the same vessel.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/20/22 09:19 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
I am sure the Clan Home worlds would have the SDS tech in place or something similar or better by this point.
Problem – An SDS system is used as defensive measure against planetary invasion.
I must therefore ask what are the Clans are so afraid of that they would establish a planetary defence system upon their worlds? For example - wouldn’t the establishment of the SDS be necessitated by the fact the Clans believe that the IS know the “exodus route” to the Kerensky Cluster / Pentagon Worlds.
Also who is going to “fit the bill” (as it were)? For some of these worlds maintain multiple Clans, who each own a certain percentage – and who will have operational control of this system? The Clan with the highest percentage of the ownership – or is it determined by whomever has won the most recent Trail of Possession for the system?
Or is the SDS system only set to defend a single Clans fiefdom as it were – and the remainder of the clans on world will have to create their own SDS system?
Or are these systems only on wholly owned worlds / the Capitol world?
These issues will, therefore, need to be addressed if your going to place an SDS system on many of the Clans worlds.
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Aerospace-wise, the Clans have a more significant force, but keep in mind that they are still a ground-based force.
Rather than developing an SDS system, wouldn’t it be more “Clan like” to develop an aerospace fighter carrier for each Clan that can then be sent to defend a Clan’s multiple holdings – as required – and can then be part of the bidding process to determine forces available?
That is each Clan therefore has a mobile weapons platform – that is cost effective – as well as strategically flexible in offence and defence?
In all reality wouldn’t the Clans consider the SDS a boondoggle and a waste of resources?
Things folks forget, aerospace fighters on a carrier (now hold the high ground) – gaining aerospace fighter superiority can enable the attacking force to inflict massive damages upon ground forces whom no longer have aerospace fighter support.
Consider Nova Cats on Tukayyid and the 417th Division reinforces air assets as the destructive capability of aerospace fighters.
So, ground forces can be strafed and bombed en masse … and can be use also as a primary force of war … thus aerospace pilots can be proud of their ability to inflict such grievous damage that their allied ground forces will be assigned mop-up duties.
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ECM should be standard in Clan mechs
ECMs and Probes should be standard in ALL mechs – IS and Clan.
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Black Boxes
Probably one of the most underdeveloped plot development tools that were never utilized to their fullest.
Again, when can a little reality be added to the story?
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The Clans would target jump-ships, not to destroy but to capture.
Thank you for agreeing with me. As above, “Problem – this is a waste of resources – more efficient to capture and use them for the glory of the Clans.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/20/22 12:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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ECM is a bit of an issue. Yes, it is used to help prevent things like streaks from locking on, but in a society that promotes single 'honorable' combat, it hides units as well. This is where it could be argued either way. I do agree that it should be standard in every mech made after it was reintroduced. 1 to 1.5 tons is a bit much. But then TC's should have existed long before, as not being able to hit a walking house at even 30 meters is a bit much.
Yes, the clans would capture jumpships, but the thought was to prevent them from jumping out. Unless they seen the ship jump in, the risks would suggest neutralizing them quickly. Which brings up a question on clan jumpships. Are they more advanced then IS ones? Beyond Ion-Lithium cores.
The question makes me wonder if they would bother. It is inferior technology and construction in their eyes, even if the clan ships are not more advanced. I guess the waste not want not concept would win out.
One more thing. Those sent to capture it would find the duty disgusting. It isn't like they will find a real fight onboard. Though not being able to use elemental armor might change this concept.
Where it is true that ground forces take and hold land, aerofighters do have an important part of keeping reinforcements from reaching allies coming from other worlds. I know the stigma the clans have against them, as aeropilots are not normally considered real warriors. They generally do poorly in unaugmented combat. This is shown from the lack of them being in major command positions.
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ghostrider
08/21/22 12:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Been doing a little thinking on the SDS system. A conclusion that came up is the system would have been used in multiple systems around Terra, not just Terra. This may well be part of the reason the SLDF lost so many ships trying to retake Terra.
Not sure how much the HBS game is conical, but part of the SL base you find had the program in it to seize control of ships to turn them into part of the system, causing it to try and ram other ships while over loading the engines to explode upon contact. As I doubt this is close to being canon, it does make me wonder if such a program can and does exist from the old SL.
Given the Bugeye could hack into ships computers, this would be a very nasty weapon to use against enemy ships. I don't see why viruses couldn't be used to, at least temporarily, neutralize ships.
This could be part of the intel the clans or IS could use to get an upper hand in a few battles. Just normally hacking could do this. Maybe have a ship fire upon another friendly ship. This could remove ships from service until a counter is found, or the back door is removed. Even Windows has a remote way of getting into your system, as it never truly shuts off. It is how they 'help' you when you screw something up, thru remote means.
This may well have been put in by clan scientists, as a means to protect themselves from the warriors if they ever decide the scientists need to die.
One possible use for it, is teaching clan pilots how to fight against such a system, as it would be easier to work with students, verses losing a space craft to a mistake. This would only be used for early training, as only real combat is done for graduation. Which might explain why fighter pilots are not that common, on top of just being seen as a poor necessary evil to the ground units.
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Karagin
08/21/22 12:34 AM
70.118.172.64
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I agree the SDS would have been in every system IN the old Terran Hegemony. It makes sense. I would say it would be like an onion, though. The layers of defense get more challenging as you move toward Terra (Sol Systems). Not only the SDS but the entire defense of the Hegemony itself. The SLDF would have known this and been ready with better tactics to avoid going against the bastions and moving on to the weaker links. Amaris only had so many troops, and even with the help of traitors inside Hegemony, they could not cover everything. I am willing to bet many of the Hegemony nobles who quickly joined Amaris's side jumped back to the side of the SLDF the second they saw the writing on the wall change.
The Clans would be well aware of the SDS and expect to run into it the closer they get to Terra. Not finding it on the outer worlds (systems) of what was once the Terran Hegemony would either be a shock or possibly not if the Dragoons had included that in their reports unless they had been told not to mention them. The Bugeyes were not numerous, so they would still be a rare item.
I am not seeing the need for the warriors to be killing the scientist as much as we have seen in the later books, that is poor writing and falling back on bad tropes of sci-fi for lack of having an actual plot.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/21/22 11:06 AM
45.51.181.83
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Doesn't mean the scientists wouldn't have a back up just in case.
With the invasion, do clan scientist start working with IS DNA to add to the clans?
Phelan was of the Ward line, but not of the purified clan DNA. As other warriors prove the nature can be just as good as nurtured DNA. With the Wolves winning, would they finally acknowledge the Dragoons by making the 'Wolf' bloodname as they were promised when they left the clans?
Would the clans take some of the oddball IS tech and make it better? Something like the TSM.
The C3 is something I believe they would either ignore, or try to remove completely. It goes against their codes of battle.
It would be interesting to see how the clans deal with the gangs in the CC, as well as trying to remove the Black Dragons and such. The FWL would really cause issues with the clans, though they might actually appeal to them in a wierd way. Each little entity has their pride in their area, which is much like the clans have in their clan. Not sure if it would go further then just acknowledgement or amusement with it.
I think we touched on it before, but would the IS clans bring their people into the IS, and leave the home worlds for the others?
Would the entire home worlds be abandoned, as the other clans try to gain areas in the IS, as it was the home of the 'blessed' SL? The TH worlds could be seen as being the 'new' home worlds for them. This is an interesting subject. It could very well split the clans like it did in canon. Some would want to be part of the old TH/SL, while others might decide it foolish to head back into the chaos that is the IS. Also, depending on what the agreement was for the invasion, could they even be allowed to do so?
Given the hatred for waste, I don't see the home worlds being left to whomever stays. The idea of 'once mine, always mine' seems to fit the clans. And I doubt the trueborns would leave it for the freeborns.
Yeah, this set seems to be after the conquest of Terra is over with. I think what happens would need to be set up sooner then later. Retcons screw things up.
Having things like shipments from the home worlds coming in, and the IS possibly intercepting them might make for some side stories with this.
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Karagin
08/21/22 01:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think we would see the Clans step up how many sibkos they have going at the same to make up for losses. Also, the number of losses will start to change how solahma units are looked at and used.
The Clans would study IS tech; if they can use it they might. C3 is a tricky item, even for the Inner Sphere, because realistically, it should be used by all of the Inner Sphere post-invasion. The Clans should have had something like C3 already, but again they had their Honor Code and such in place, stunting some of their tech growth. One significant change we should have seen from the invasion is that the Clans can learn that honor and technology can go hand and hand.
Yes, the Clans would bring their people forward, not at first but over time. The Bears had that plan from the start, it seems. And the Nova Cats ended up doing the same thing. The Falcons and Wolves slowly did this. The Homeworlds were important, but they were also far away.
Recall the Clans would trade their holdings off for things they know they would need, So they are not abandoning them; they are exchanging said holdings for things like mobile factories and other needed items. Also, remember the Clans follow their leaders with very few questions asked. And if someone can't beat the leader in combat, then the issue or challenge is dropped, and folks follow the orders.
The Clans see the Inner Sphere as the Garden Of Eden, so to speak. They also see it as Ruined Paradise, one they can save. So if it means giving up their holding on the Homeworlds, then so be it. They don't lose their holdings on Strana Mechty, which is more important than the rest, so they still have ties to Homeworld.
Yes, the need to move people would have to start shortly after the first wave hits the Inner Sphere. Otherwise, it will be hard to get in place and have anything fully set up to hold things after Terra falls.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/21/22 08:14 PM
1.147.88.67
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Those sent to capture it would find the duty disgusting.
First either aerospace pilots or warships pin I in place – then a new crew of either merchants / technicians are assigned to he prize ship. The old crew are then sent to a re-education camp via POW / Prison Dropship.
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They generally do poorly in unaugmented combat.
Could this be due to the fact that their genetic legacy makes for them to be smaller etc. than that of their Mech and elemental competitors – thus placing them a severe disadvantage from the get go!
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the system would have been used in multiple systems around Terra
Just as Amaris or WoB implemented?
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the reason the SLDF lost so many ships trying to retake Terra
Retaking Terra from the WoB may provide answers.
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the Bugeye could hack into ships computers
Wouldn’t every ship come with physical countermeasures (analog – switches that require physical control and safety systems built into the ship?) for just these issues? – plus technicians can be trained in anti-electronics warfare to detect malicious intrusion and kick them out then fight back.
That said – do you really want this included the game?
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This may well have been put in by clan scientists, as a means to protect themselves from the warriors
Don’t you mean technicians who make all the warrior’s vehicles?
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teaching clan pilots how to fight against such a system
So how are you going to fly your aerospace fighter and at the same time have the mental capability to understand attack / counter-measure electronics on a screen – sorry but we are now looking at a two-seater – front pilot rear technician with advanced electronics suite i.e their complex sensor, communications, weapon systems the more sophisticated flight controls - and thus reducing the pilots workload - and in the future controlling the fighter’s drones that could be accompanying the fighter on its mission.
Thus one can concentrate on the flying the other on the electronics / drones.
To put this into the American language – pilots will no longer be a duellist – they will be more a quarterback with the drones taking on the risk of combat!
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The Clans would be well aware of the SDS and expect to run into it the closer they get to Terra.
No, not really – remember they are incredibly blinkered in many things.
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the Dragoons had included that in their reports
The last report was 3019/20 – so no SDS report.
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I am not seeing the need for the warriors to be killing the scientist
And the desire to be FREE? – liberty, fraternity, equality!
The Trueborn have been under the yoke of their warrior masters for too long – with the war commencing in the IS they (civilians) now know the truth as to the SL and the perversion the warrior caste has forced upon them – time to rise up, and take back that which was lost, death to the false Kerensky prophets! To the barricades and civil war!
So the warriors within the IS can say goodbye to their logistics …
Or is this an alien concept that is best forgotten?
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With the Wolves winning, would they finally acknowledge the Dragoons by making the 'Wolf' bloodname as they were promised when they left the clans?
Really? The true genetic line of the Wolf Trueborn are making advancements within the IS – the Freeborn scum of the Dragoons have gone rogue – any promise made to a bunch of brigands is now null and void – These brigands who have refused to answer their betters, are now bandit caste and will be shot on sight!
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Would the clans take some of the oddball IS tech and make it better?
This would be seen as being repulsive. So no not ever – why would they adopt barbarian technology?
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It would be interesting to see how the clans deal with the gangs in the CC … BlackDragons
Problem – the CC should no longer exist.
Second – the Clans do have any security force in numbers to enforce their edicts – so unless they start by using orbital bombardments doubt anyone will listen to them to begin with.
As for the BlackDragons – they are a partisan group in the shadows – if the Clans assume control they will become the main partisan group fighting for the liberation of the Draconis Combine – many will flock to them to fight back, to regain their historical way of life!
Sorry in both cases war via partisan cell units.
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would the IS clans bring their people into the IS
How? … no, really how? … Can the Clans make ships in vast numbers to transport the vast number of Clan Civilians – and even if they did what is the point? As there are a vast number of worlds within the IS that have a higher population then individual clans themselves … they just do not have the population to take control of the IS … why is this so difficult to understand?
If they came to the IS then Clan way of life will be destroyed by IS way of life!
The clans picked a fight with a tiger and they should be just trying to hang on to the tail … the IS has too vast an industrial might that was never used in the canon story, and that should have … what we are looking at is Japan / America all over again during ww2 – Aircraft Carriers – in the same time Japan could make 7 America was making over 90 …
Sorry but the industrial might of the Clans Vs the IS as well as the Sibko issues – the clans may have the best warriors / machines – but over time they will be destroyed by shear IS numbers – attrition warfare as seen on Tukayyid, but on a much larger scale!
Realism in the game please!
In all reality I cannot even see how the Clans are keeping their empires together post Tukayyid – they do not have the people to keep the IS civilians in line – massive partisan war on all worlds …
In the Kerensky Cluster etc their society is safe (for a time … as the seeds of rebellion have been sown). In the IS their civilians will pick up the bad habits of the IS civilians.
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The idea of 'once mine, always mine' seems to fit the clans.
Yes, however what you cannot protect is mine is also a tenant of Clan philosophy – so how are you going to maintain two armies one in the IS and the other in Clan space – good luck in pulling that off without an edict stating that all trails of possession for Clan worlds / property is now illegal – all trials of possession for property must be within the IS.
Thus if their army is away how are they going to stop the freeborns from taking over – Clan Diamond Shark now back to Sea Fox with trade fleets than warriors.
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Having things like shipments from the home worlds coming in, and the IS possibly intercepting them might make for some side stories with this.
Now you agree!
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I think we would see the Clans step up how many sibkos they have going at the same to make up for losses.
Problem – this will take a minimum of 18 years before you will see any results and who is going to let the Clans have that breathing room – ow yes TPTB would do this – they would just let the Clans off the hook and not allow he IS to attack ….
Realism please!
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Also, the number of losses will start to change how solahma units are looked at and used.
Sorry but no, the number of losses will start to change how “FRONT LINE FORCES” units are looked at and used – more Freeborn will have to be drafted in to fill the losses of the Trueborn.
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The Clans would study IS tech
Study barbarian tech … no way …
C3 system … and give up fighting on your own as a duellist? … never going to happen.
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Yes, the Clans would bring their people forward, not at first but over time.
Without a vast number of fleets this will take decades .. even a century to complete – so unless you want o set up pure Clan worlds there is going to be a cultural issue – and as the Clans are in the minority don’t expect the clan civilian culture to survive very long.
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exchanging said holdings for things like mobile factories
And who is going to transport it to the IS and who is going to operate them in the IS?
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The Clans see the Inner Sphere as the Garden Of Eden, so to speak.
Really? Just remember the serpent is there and what happened to Adam and Eve – kicked out! So don’t expect the Clans to find their salvation there any time soon – they have committed too many sins for them to be allowed to find happiness within the IS.
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Terra
Remove all the IS Terrans from the planet – then allow only those from Clan space to live on the world – Racial DNA Purity 1 Barbarian IS DNA 0.
If you want to bring Clanners into the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/22 09:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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Sibcos are time consuming. Even with trials of position happening around 15-16 or so, does create a time lag. I was talking about them increasing the sibkos even before the Outbound Light made it to the clan home worlds. Most had to know it was only a matter of time before the vastly outnumbered wardens could not hold back the crusaders in the invasion.
As stated before, the wolves could have covered moving more replacements forward without the other clans knowing it, by adding in 'extra' guards on their ships. This would allow reinforcements to constantly come in, without needing to have them wait a few months for the ships to reach the IS.
As they would not be active until they are put into unis that were bid in, they could have more then a few warriors waiting around until they were needed. This may well be part of why the other clans had to wait to repair. A trinary with only 9 warriors might be held back until they got the 6 warriors to bring it up to full health. The Dragoons could already have them ready to go, with the main slow down being working machines. And given the push from the warriors, they may well demand to take out machines that weren't fully fixed.
Canon novels had suggested a few of the Wolves refused to have some minor damage fixed before going on, such as Ranna having some armor flaked off by newly released warriors in an FRR assault.
I could also see a few disassembled mechs being shipped in those supply runs as well. They could be reassembled when needed, which would be keeping with the agreement, as they could not be used until reassembled. This would mean they would have replacements there, and not wait until they get sent from the home worlds. This could well be what they had in some of the advanced depots they put up. It may well be why the other clans had issues, suggesting it was extremely dangerous to have those depots, as the IS could find them. The story didn't say one way or another.
Just a thought, but the idea of cost preventing the IS from making clan tech leaves out a few things. The IS did not research the TC and a few other things, so it had to be retro engineered from clan tech. Yet this wasn't so expensive to do. Even omni technology wasn't a problem.
Thinking of clans taking damaged IS tech, I would think the techs could pry out the command codes and encryptions to allow them to tap into IS transmissions to counter moves and set up for the type of fights the clans wanted. Not so much ambush them, but just trap them into areas. For some, this may include some commanders using the dezgra tactics to actually ambush the IS, which in turns causes those units to become dezgra as well. This could be another factor is slowing down the flankers as well. Dealing with using dishonorable tactics.
One thought that came up after hitting continue, this may well be why the scientists had made the extra warriors the Falcons had used in the canon story. They may well have been told by a few khans to have them ready.
Edited by ghostrider (08/21/22 09:50 PM)
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Karagin
08/21/22 10:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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I agree that the Khans would have had plans in place with the scientists to have more ways to get warriors when they needed them, and since they could still do the sibko method, things could be sped up, like using conditioning training and other such methods. Lots of opitions. It won't happen overnight and not in 20 years either, so sorry, the WoB BS is out the window again.
Again keeping things within reason, I would say that some Clans are using freebirth sikbos and saying that they are trueborns and the only ones who know the truth are the scientists and the Khans. That would allow for more numbers and keep things less of an issue for a while.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 01:19 AM
45.51.181.83
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Well we do know the Wolves used large amounts of freeborn warriors, as they provided over 5 regiments of them to the Dragoon mission. This includes having vehicle drivers, which worked well together, unlike most trueborns, as well as stealth people, the 7th Kommandos. Interesting thing is some of the vehicles they had were IS designs after the SLDF left, so either that was an oooops, or they had other means to gain access to them.
As it is doubtful they are clan built, it would mean missions before the Dragoons got sent. The Behemoth, Demolisher, Schrek and Hunter tanks were made after the SLDF left, and they seemed to arrive with those vehicles. I want to say a few mechs were in the same boat, but don't remember which ones.
The Falcons did use some as well, given the Jade Phoenix saga. Well mech warriors, not vehicle units.
Unless they retconned it, I don't think Hell's Horses provided any tank crews.
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Requiem
08/22/22 01:26 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
I was talking about them increasing the sibkos even before the Outbound Light made it to the clan home worlds.
Problem – what is the justification for this radical departure to Clan Norms?
As we are now delving into the what if / Alt Universe ….
Sorry but if you want to increase the armies of the invading Clans to make it a little more realistic – then Half the number of active Clans and combine their two TO&Es together – thus what we have is ten clans in all – 4 allowed to invade 1 in reserve and 5 at home for example. This should provide each invading Clan with the resources they need to actually reach Terra (mathematically speaking) to become the il-Clan and an argument can be made that perhaps their new and improved sibko numbers for replacement personnel might be adequate if you also provide Hatchetman’s escape pod head as standard for Clan mechs and fighters – thus limiting casualties on the battlefield / depletion report (except for elementals) as infantry being infantry they will always take the brunt of it – thus you can say they are always made in vast numbers as a lie to cover up the losses as it were.
Then you will need to add in a technical security force to keep all the inner spere populations under control – minimum security force complement that can control vast number of individuals ….
May I suggest some type of hover drone police force with AI capabilities and a very lethal means of keeping the population under control.
The only other way is via Exo-Force – all individuals come out of the iron womb as adult pre-programed warriors – thus the Clans can make warriors in any quantity they need – whist the freeborn are there as their menial slave caste …
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Most had to know it was only a matter of time before the vastly outnumbered wardens could not hold back the crusaders in the invasion.
Ha? … so everyone knew that there would be a civil war between the wardens and the crusaders over ideology?
Sorry but if this was the case wouldn’t they have settled this ideological dispute prior to the invasion through multiple Trials of … ?
Thus if either the wardens or the crusaders won – then their ideology would dominate in how to treat the entire IS they capture – their ideology would dominate all the Clans …
If the wardens won – they would try to re-educate them;
If the crusaders won – they become slaves to be beaten into submission until they know their place.
Or should this be …
“Most had to know it was only a matter of time before the vastly outnumbered Clans could hold back the Inner Sphere in the invasion …”
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the wolves could have covered moving more replacements forward without the other clans knowing it, by adding in 'extra' guards on their ships. This would allow reinforcements to constantly come in, without needing to have them wait a few months for the ships to reach the IS.
Problem – to achieve this …
First – the Wolves must have more jumpships than any other (transport to and from clan space to IS at an increased rate);
Second – they would require an increased sibko / Freeborn warrior intake; and
Lastly - The only other way of getting more reinforcement forward is depleting garrisons within the rear – making their rear volatile for invasion.
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Canon novels had suggested a few of the Wolves refused to have some minor damage fixed before going on
This only occurs within a single battle that is moving at a very rapid rate.
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could also see a few disassembled mechs being shipped in those supply runs as well. They could be reassembled when needed
As there isn’t much to do on a long voyage maybe the tech team could actually put it back together as they progress along the voyage …
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the idea of cost preventing the IS from making clan tech leaves out a few things.
Leaves out a great deal!
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Even omni technology wasn't a problem.
Where are all the FC Omni’s?
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allow them to tap into IS transmissions
Encryption – talking in code – multiple channels
The IS have more fun with this – Snords has an individual who proselytises a sermon to Rhonda playing Elvis … so how would the clans lie this?
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They may well have been told by a few khans to have them ready.
First you have to ask what the Clan was up to 18 years prior to these extra warriors being on the field …
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some Clans are using freebirth sikbos and saying that they are trueborns
Really? What is going to happen when the clan who initiated this gets caught – not only from those external – but also from those internal …
*** Spoiler Alert ***
Just remember what the bears did to their children when they found out a scientist spliced their DNA with wolverine …. They took them all out into a field and gave them all a pistol, then told them all about their DNA – they all then took out their gun and shot themselves in the head.
The Khan was very pleased. (if you are wondering Betrayal of Ideals - Pardoe)
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Freeborn – Wolves
Consider the wolf touman https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf_Touman
And yes we all know there are vast differences between the Dragoons and the Clan itself.
As for the original wolfs Dragoons Freeborn complement – my guess is there were compiled from all the Clans to form the entire 5 regiments … as no single clan has ever been seen to have this many in their individual toumans.
That said all clans provided a little for the total complement ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/22/22 12:07 PM
70.118.172.64
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The stuff the Dragoons arrived with was a mixed bag. It was older tech stuff for sure, but they did have new stuff mixed in. Things like Imps, Annihilators, Shoguns, etc...all raised concerns. Then having vehicles and mechs that worked looked almost brand new and well cared for, yeah, that was an issue. Plus, the skill level of the Dragoons put them above even elite House units.
The Dragoons were something that had a fantastic idea and purpose and then got monkeyed with a bit too much post-Invasion. The whole reset idea that was the Jihad was the worst thing done to the Battletech gaming system both from a storytelling point and a financial point.
Too many retcons and extra silly points were thrown in because specific new staff felt their version of things lined up with what the rest of the fans wanted when that wasn't the case. We all know what happens because of that, and we can also see it happening again.
Moving back to this topic, things will already begin to change once the Clans start to see that the Inner Sphere is not the cakewalk they thought it would be as far as military operations go. They will need to fill their ranks. They will have to use freeborn troops more. They will have to adjust their built-in cuts-offs of age being a limitation on things. Some Clans will not do this fast enough, others will adjust and adapt over time a bit faster, and some will already have plans because they read the reports from the Dragoons and others and did the simple math. The math would have shown them that their Clan and the rest didn't have the numbers to beat the Inner Sphere military.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 02:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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The reason for the vehicle statement was those vehicles listed were not built before the SLDF left the IS. They were designed and built afterwards. 2800 and beyond time period. So there is no way the clans should have had any of them without someone getting access to them before the Dragoons got to the IS.
The original concept of just strike towards Terra, and leave it at that may have worked, if the IS was going to just roll over and play dead once it was taken. Those that actually took the Dragoons reports to heart would have seen that the IS citizens were not the sheep that the clan citizens were. They would also have known the houses were not attached to Terra like the other clans thought they were.
With this, I could see a large amount of 'failed' warriors being given a second chance to to a trial of position for solemha and second line units. Even if they were just going to be infantry. The Wolves would have seen that no matter how little they changed the lives of the IS areas they conquered, they would not be able to maintain peace. Now this is BEFORE they contacted Comstar and found they would administer worlds for them while they were in the periphery. This could well have been seen by other clans and they realized the same thing, and started in a much smaller batch. This would be more of the warden clans with some of the less strict crusaders testing it out. The Falcons had done part of this with Aidan and a few others.
Also, there were no Von Luckners and older tanks that were discontinued during the succession wars.
Another question comes up with the SDS. Why didn't Comstars warships have anything like that? Even if it was just an anti-fighter set up? I guess the retcon just had it fade away until it was needed to create another bs scenario.
It might be an interesting twist to have the clans made the AP infantry weapons. They did have to deal with elementals in attacks all the time, and to avoid losing face and territory, at least one of the clans would have come up with the concept and used it to try and hold back those clans that has superior numbers on them at all times. Maybe the Hell's Horses might have used it with their vehicles.
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Karagin
08/22/22 03:19 PM
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I would say that some of those vehicles the Dragoos would have bought once they arrived or right before, Jamie might have sent in some scouts and such, bought some stuff, and began setting up their contacts. That would be a better retcon than anything else.
ComStar and warships, they would have a few. This becomes their need of them. They are costly, and keeping a crew trained means moving them around. Someone will notice them. So after a few decades, their costs become more of an issue, so they are mothballed. Then, when needed, it will take time to bring them up to practical operational use, and then the crews' training, where will that come from? Oh yeah, a manual that last was updated when the SLDF left, and even then, it was being written as things were happening. The cost will be an issue on how many they can man and field. That will change over time, but it won't be an overnight massive fleet racing off to stop the Clans again. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Anti-infantry weapons make sense. The Clans would have them for dealing with Battlearmor. And for unarmored infantry as well. I could see one Clan using them more than another. That would be true of other weapons; each Clan should favor something more than the others.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 06:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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The biggest problem with buying them before entering the IS or the FS service. Where did they get the money? It isn't like clan credit was something. But I can agree that some were probably bought since they entered.
The canon story says Comstar kept warships going for a while after the first war. I know they say when they were mothballed because of the expense. So that looks to remain.
The question is when do they start making more? And how are they going to fund them?
The large arrow the clans have pointing towards Terra says it all. Who is going to sell stuff to Comstar to make the fleet larger then what they had stashed?
Most would figure Comstar's money would be worthless, once the clans get there.
I can as a huge amount of blackmail and backroom deals happening here.
Not sure, but I would think Comstar would rather blow up their ships before letting the clans have them, so that will cut into their numbers, but it should prevent the instant increase in clan warships.
And I doubt that Comstar would be worried about costs after a certain point. It isn't like they would be around to have to pay up. But I do agree with not having even dozens of new warships showing up. Depending on timing, maybe 10 or so, given how long it actually takes to build them, verses how quickly the clans advance after Terra is the known target.
What? Some clans prefer certain units over others? 
The Timber and Dire Wolf being the Wolves, while the Summoner (Thor) and Hellbringer (Loki) being something the Falcons like?
Kind of funny that those two mechs are from Norse mythos. I wonder if that was an inside joke when they came up with the story line.
And yet the LC was slanted towards German tastes.
I haven't seen much beyond mech types that the clans deal with specific tastes in weapons.
Is there going to be anyone special in the DC side of the fight?
We know Victor and Kai are in the FC, but not sure if Hohiro is going to be able to do as much. Maybe add in a few like Shin, Theodores 'body guard' could help. Or do we just focus on the FC and possible FRR?
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Karagin
08/22/22 07:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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Buying could be done via precious stones, gold, or rare minerals, or they could have traded for them. Or they rented them for use and then returned them once a contract was signed. That would not be the first time that has been done.
It's never said when they started making more, not that I can find right off--hand of scanning the wiki. My best guess would be they might have made one or two every other year or so. That would keep things working, but again it runs us right back to my point that things inside the Sol system were not as "destroyed" as ComStar claimed. We know the Titan Yards were still there. Who's to say there weren't other yards? We only have the ComStar reports claiming the Sol System was played out of resources after all. And we know how well they are at lying.
Even ComStar has to worry about the cost. Cost is still going to be a factor even for them. The thinking that cost was no issue is the same BS logic that got us the Word of Blake 21 year jump from fanatical chanting cult to the Next Amaris (TM) to ravage the Inner Sphere. Cost is going to be an issue.
Yes, weapon types, mechs, etc...would be something each Clan would favor over another. So it would seem that the PTB lost this part or dropped it somewhere along the way.
Combine side, I have some ideas, Let me double check a few worlds and such.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 09:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the wiki has Comstar warships parked in 2 different systems, I would say you are correct in there being other shipyards still around.
And with this, it does not say that Comstar didn't fix the Titan shipyards. Though I would bet they were moved to another location, that the IS didn't know about in the Sol system. I could see a few ships using telescopes to check up on the yards in that location.
Ok, I mis spoke. Costs will be an issue, but not one they will be strict about. It looks to come down to fight at all costs or be removed from power. Given they don't have any sort of bank accounts that we know of, they could well have so much in the way of funds, they don't know what to do with them. Covering the costs of the warships was part of mothballing them, but what did they do with the excess? What sort of deals did they make with any of the realms, including the periphery? We know they were digging up SL sites once they found them, but if the video games have any connection with the board game, I can see Comstar stealing digs when no one is looking. Pass off the attacks as pirate strikes, or just a misjump. It would be difficult to suggest otherwise.
The story suggests Comstar was not as rich as you would think, but I find that unlikely. They had their hands in every transaction that required someone pass the money along. So basically, any above the table trades, or purchases would go thru them. Such as jumpships being sold or ordered by other nations. The Monolith can not be just stolen for the DC to have about half of those in operation during the 3025 era.
I would also imagine they are the brokers in trades done inside each realm as well. Fusion engine orders Defiance made had large amounts of money being moved, and I doubt they would risk a dropship to move it.
This is not saying they don't have a lot of overhead. I just don't see them playing nice with everyone.
Except for suspense purposes, we know Vlad was not one for using Gauss rifles a lot. The fight with Phelan had the alpha strike turn into a delayed fire for them. But I can imagine the pilots of certain mechs would prefer something like missiles over lasers because of their size. We know the Puma and Warhawks main configuration is ppc heavy. But there is reasons for the other configurations, and it isn't just for show.
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Requiem
08/22/22 11:55 PM
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things will already begin to change once the Clans start to see that the Inner Sphere is not the cakewalk, they thought it would be as far as military operations go
Problem – TPTB transformed the entire invasion into a cakewalk – it is the ineptest war ever devised, devoid of any reality whatsoever.
There are just way too many issues that were never addressed within the war – on both sides – that should have been there.
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the vehicle statement was those vehicles listed were not built before the SLDF left the IS.
Vehicles built in Clan Space and provided to the Wolfs Dragoons Reconnaissance Mission.
Remember this is not the first reconnaissance mission – prior mission(s) were sent to Deep Periphery – in which they became aware of the Succession Wars – and how they were being conducted, nukes, Mechs, Vehicles, Fighters, Infantry etc
Thus the Clans need to create a military force that can fit into the IS at that time – i.e. camouflage
Hence the vehicles, infantry, as well as older Mech designs …
Problems arise when you factor in the quality of the Mechs and the professionalism of their Unit as a whole and as individuals – far beyond what is normal – then they have a ship that makes Mechs WT_?
This alone should have had red bells ringing.
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the IS was going to just roll over and play dead once it was taken
This is why the Clans are so stupid – they believe everyone should just roll over and adopt their way of life and their rules of war … they desire affirmation that they are correct in all things.
Their entire society is not geared to understand the IS state of mind as to virtually everything!
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I could see a large amount of 'failed' warriors being given a second chance to to a trial of position for solemha and second line units.
Two schools of thought on this …
1. Aidan Pryde – second chance and his winning a Bloodname.
2. Clan Smoke Jaguar – final days on Huntress, those who did not pass their trial of position offered to join the fight and were refused.
So each Clan has their own idea on this point and it can change with the changing of each Khan (or needs must as the devil drives)?
So in a time when more warriors are needed due to the sibko system is not producing enough warriors, such as the IS Invasion, then some Khans may become relaxed about the idea and allow a second chance just because they need more warriors – and trial of reaving / trial of absorption is considered too risky.
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Why didn't Comstars warships have anything like that?
First they need a hidden shipyard, then they need hidden scientists who have been trained to design new warships, then they need hidden manufacturing facilities and people to make it – then they need a hidden naval academy to train the crew …
Can you see a Telecom company going to all this difficulty when they have old models mothballed … which will be more than adequate as our Blessed Blake has promised that the IS will obliterate itself in a fire of its own making – and once this has occurred our blessed order can then ride out like the Knights of old to restore order and educate the masses about our blessed Blakean Theocracy.
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It might be an interesting twist to have the clans made the AP infantry weapons.
What is the aim of circles of equals – fight with minimum damage – reduce casualties – AP will just increase casualties – currently they can wrestle each other off the Mech whist cutting into it - also don’t the elementals have Hv. MG / Sm. Laser / SRM / Flamer, what are these if not AP infantry?
So are you looking at something larger that can take out an elemental (Battle armour) with say one shot one kill by a fellow Battle Armour – some kind of Micro. Gauss or PPC?
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That will change over time, but it won't be an overnight massive fleet racing off to stop the Clans again. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Depends on when warships begin being constructed
How many construction yards there are
Then number of construction personnel
The number and types of ships that can be produced and how long it takes …
Just remember ww2 Japan / America – time it takes for Japan to make 7 Carriers USA can make over 90 …
But we don’t have to worry about that as TPTB will never provide this info as the Clans would loose all to quickly …
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Where did they get the money?
And no one is using gold in the manufacturing of electronics for example?
Or no one is mining and stumbles over gold – thus they could have who knows how many gold bricks?
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The question is when do they start making more? And how are they going to fund them?
Day one they know of the existence of the Clans and They are an interstellar Telecom Co – it would be a given they have been ripping off their customers for how long? Thus their bank account would be incredibly vast – so money is really not an issue.
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Who is going to sell stuff to Comstar to make the fleet larger then what they had stashed?
No one – all manufacturing would be in house.
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Most would figure Comstar's money would be worthless, once the clans get there.
90-80% or their HPGs are still operational and in ComStar Hands – thus their currency would drop 10-20% in value but it is still a viable currency.
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I can as a huge amount of blackmail and backroom deals happening here.
What for?
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Comstar would rather blow up their ships before letting the clans have them
No – think Germany end of WW2 – scorched earth policy to destroy all military industrial facilities / ship yards etc ….
Ships will be required to reform the ComGuard Somewhere so that they can initiate an attack to recapture Terra from the Clans …
Remember ComStar is only in exile at the moment – they are Not destroyed outright!
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But I do agree with not having even dozens of new warships showing up.
Shipyards around hidden worlds and also within the FWL? So yes dozens of new shipyards can still show up.
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And yet the LC was slanted towards German tastes.
And yet the concept of Archon is Greek.
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Is there going to be anyone special in the DC side of the fight?
If this was a real what if discussion – I would suggest Omika Kurita – just remember there are female samurai – try googling them.
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Cost is going to be an issue.
If comstar can shift its bank off Terra – then no cost is not going to be an issue – everyone in the IS is their customer – They are a Monopoly – their wealth would be beyond the dreams of avarice.
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Yes, weapon types, mechs, etc...would be something each Clan would favor over another. So it would seem that the PTB lost this part or dropped it somewhere along the way.
Yes this is a major flaw in the game – Each House should have 2 /3 types in each class that they favour above all others.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/22 11:53 AM
45.51.181.83
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Would it be a good idea to have the clans lose a few battles?
Same with having the IS win a few worlds back?
This would help explain why the flankers were having problems advancing toward Terra.
This could be applied to the Wolves as well, so there isn't the air of deityhood for them.
Maybe even (gasp) the DC and FC doing a pincer movement on the Wolves, only to have to give it up as the flankers start pressing forward to engage the FC/DC?
This could also include some Comstar forces, that are on some sort of mission, such as rescuing one of the first circuit caught in transport, such as from the FRR. Might be the first Comstar/Clan engagement with warships. It could well be long before, or shortly before they reach Terra. One point may well be right after the FRR is completely conquered.
I do believe that Hanse and Theodore/Takashi would have a face to face meeting about dealing with the clans, and I don't mean having the Dragoon meeting. I can see it being important, so they could try and resist more efficiently. Not sure if the DC would push to include the FWL or CC in this. Though having the CC say they would help, only to turn and attack the FC could be how that situation develops. It would be keeping with their history. It may well be how they get forces in position to do so.
It might be that it is held on Terra just as the FRR falls completely.
The FWL would probably sit it out, but agree to producing the refit kits. No, Joshua is NOT involved in this, unless you think it wise to have Comstar be shown as uncaring for the others, since they would not bother with trying to save him in front of those, if the meeting is held on Terra.
It may also be that this meeting is when Comstar informs the IS of their warships and that the Titan yards are starting to make more.
This might not be a good idea, as it would push the houses to make their own warship designs, as they know it is now possible.
Edited by ghostrider (08/24/22 11:54 AM)
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Requiem
08/24/22 04:13 PM
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Would it be a good idea to have the clans lose a few battles?
Same with having the IS win a few worlds back?
Do you wish to add a little realism to the game or stay with canon?
Explanation –
With realism – IS are allowed R&D to reverse engineer all clan omni tech and weapons (after a period of time, the IS can be said to gain parity with Clans)
Couple this with an Academy System / conscription and a total war output logistics / economy scenario …
New tactics are developed – attrition warfare as per Tukayyid – and wolf packs in the deep periphery – psyops against all freeborn (inc. PGC) – massive partisan activity in Clans rear (unable to control the masses as they do not have the security personnel)
So how long until the clans fall from grace?
With Canon – we ignore the IS’s ability to R&D to reverse engineer
They are never allowed to rebuild damaged units or create new units
Anything other than Mech on Mech fighting is forbidden
Clans do not receive personnel loss – only IS does – as sibkos are able to provide all the replacement personnel required.
IS is forbidden to take advantage of any Clan issues – post Tukayyid – inter Clan civil war – one clan reaving another for personnel – attacking their logistics fleet – using psyops to convert their freeborn to IS (as they are treated so well by their Trueborn overlords) etc.
Logistics and ecnomid development never improve – static constant
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This would help explain why the flankers were having problems advancing toward Terra.
This could be applied to the Wolves as well, so there isn't the air of deity hood for them.
Again, this depends on previous answer – realism or canon …
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the DC and FC doing a pincer movement on the Wolves
How long should it have taken – Hanse Davion, Morgan Kell, Morgan Hasek-Davion, Jamie Wolf, Theodore Kurita, or even Grayson Death Carlyle for that matter to come to the same conclusion as Anastasius Focht (Steiner) re Tukayyid?
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This could also include some Comstar forces
Sooner or later ComStar will have to have a Come to Blake moment and realise they cannot assist the Clans – as they are after Terra, and now we (ComStar) have to stop them … so how?
So yes, the ComGuard will have to oppose the Clans.
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I do believe that Hanse and Theodore/Takashi would have a face to face meeting about dealing with the clans, and I don't mean having the Dragoon meeting.
How about the year of peace – this would have been the perfect time to construct a joint defence resolution?
And yes the FWL and ComStar will be required to attend. As for the CC, still believe in writing hem out of the game – so add in St Ives and all periphery states.
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It might be that it is held on Terra just as the FRR falls completely.
The horse has already bolted from the stable to close the door – way too late in he story for a meeting now … these individuals are supposed to be the best and the brightest – thus sooner rather than later would be the policy.
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The FWL would probably sit it out, but agree to producing the refit kits.
If the Clans are so close to Terra – this seems a counter productive move on their part – they will need the other states to defend the FWL – as this invasion occurred with how many Clans – and just how many are at home and could join the invasion when?
This said if the IS couldn’t put a dent in the Clans by Terra – they are not going to stop a complete IS takeover. The IS will become a Clan holding …. And then I burn all my books in complete disgust.
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Joshua … since they would not bother with trying to save him
ComStar didn’t care, Wolfs Dragoons didn’t care, Snord’s Irregulars didn’t care … only the FC attempted the impossible.
Remember Clan medicine can repair lost limbs to battle etc – so how uncaring is the Dragoons and Jamie – are they still carrying a torch for their lost loves at the hands of the FWL?
What is he problem with the Dragoons they have already informed the IS they are Clan at this stage – so why don’t they provide technical / medical assistance?
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It may also be that this meeting is when Comstar informs the IS of their warships and that the Titan yards are starting to make more.
This might not be a good idea, as it would push the houses to make their own warship designs, as they know it is now possible.
Again – realism Vs canon
Realism – some time between 3040 and 3050 IS should have begun warship production
Canon – Late 3050’s and only after WoB has taken Terra and forced the IS to realise that yes they can make their own warships if they just try …. Groan!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/24/22 09:55 PM
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Battles would be won and lost all the time. If it sounds like a steamroller, that wasn't the idea. The fighting would not be a cakewalk for the Clans. The whole misconception that Inner Sphere can't win against the Clans without 4:1 odd is total crap. Before the arms race of the late 90s, and early 00s, my group and others I played BT with would have battles all the time where the forces were equal in numbers and skill sets, and the winner would come down to who used tactics to win.
A lot of issues with how players see the Clans is how they were written in the novels, this juggernaut running over units, wiping out elite Inner Sphere units blah, blah, etc...yet after the first couple of fights, the tide didn't stay that way. Inner Sphere units fought back and started to win. The FedCom wasn't doing as was written, or why didn't Thakrad fall? If the Clans were so damn good, they would have easily pushed through the DC units, taken Luithen, and been on the borders of the FS portion of the FC...
The battles fought would be brutal pitch fights, not Rock'em Sock'em Robots (tm) fights. I am talking about a month or more per battle, not a day's worth of fighting. That is the point the writers and the LD missed at the time. The Inner Sphere House units are fighting for their homes and nation. They know that if they retreat, that could mean the next planet to fall is their own homeworld, so they will fight to the bone and then some.
The Clans would not be getting an easy time; that's why I said at the earliest we wouldn't see the Wolves on or near Terra before 3058 or 3060. That allows for the tide of war to go back and forth. The Clans would know that their efforts to tame the Inner Sphere are not made lightly, that their honor and all that is being upheld, and I can see Ulric using that to keep the Crusaders in check by pointing out that if the Inner Sphere was so barbaric, etc...then why were they still fighting and stopping the vaunted Crusader Clans and their forces.
I am still working on the DC area of interest. I will try and have that up by Sunday.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/24/22 10:24 PM
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No rush on it.
The time frame is where TPTB did screw up. More then a few worlds fell within a week or so of the clans landing. Granted, the way they describe the fights, the clans basically hot dropped on every unit on world in one big battle. Granted, I could see the clans faster units being able to keep up with retreating units, but they would not have had an easy time as they would be just as damaged as the retreating forces. The only thing I could see the clans having is in open terrain and the range of their weapons. But we know the IS has pillboxes and bunkers scattered around worlds, so the retreating forces would pass by them, and let them bleed the clans a little more.
Yes, the elementals would cause some havoc, but it isn't like standard infantry wouldn't do the same.
I was talking about a few worlds that would be thorns in the clans pathways. Something like a heavily bunkered world that would require more troops to take, so they were basically bypassed for now. Maybe even one that had some capital naval weapons that would prevent the warships from bombarding it, yet were distracted by the warships to allow a few dropships to make it in far enough to hot drop more units. Shuttles and fighters could be used to get supplies to the clan forces stuck on world until the naval weapons could be neutralized enough to let some dropships land and get them. Maybe even load up on some shuttles to get out.
The main way to deal with this might well be do like Camelot Command and just make it difficult or impossible to keep it supplied by the IS.
I would like to see some remain open so the IS can keep the pressure up on the clans, forcing them to keep front line forces in the area. This would help keep the flankers from being able to concentrate forces elsewhere.
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Requiem
08/25/22 07:16 AM
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If it sounds like a steamroller, that wasn't the idea.
Problem – Fact! How many battles did TPTB allow the IS forces to win against the Clans – even in the later stages?
How many perfect times to engage in a counter attack against the Clans were just ignored? E.G. Introduction of PGCs, Hunting Logistics fleets, Extending their Advance Attack Groups too far leaving their rear vulnerable, Post Tukayyid – how many clans were decimated and the IS forces did NOTHING, Post Wolf Vs. Falcon civil war, The reaving of multiple Clans due to the Wolf / Falcon Civil War …
Also, after every battle there is a loss depletion report for Is forces – how many contained a Clan loss depletion report – nearly nil.
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A lot of issues with how players see the Clans is how they were written in the novels, this juggernaut running over units, wiping out elite Inner Sphere units blah, blah
If we use the info from Sarna – Invasion Corridor – Clan __________
We get the following Statistics ….
Ghost Bear 39 IS 0
Jade Falcon 49 IS 1
Nova Cat 9 IS 0.5 (Luthien)
Smoke Jaguar 37 IS 1.5
Steel Viper 3 IS 0
Wolf 86 IS 0
Total Clans 223 IS 3 (not including Tukayyid) – thus Clans 98.67% to IS 1.33%
Really?
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The battles fought would be brutal pitch fights …. I am talking about a month or more per battle
I agree.
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The Clans would not be getting an easy time; that's why I said at the earliest we wouldn't see the Wolves on or near Terra before 3058 or 3060. That allows for the tide of war to go back and forth.
Proposition is sound.
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But we know the IS has pillboxes and bunkers scattered around worlds, so the retreating forces would pass by them, and let them bleed the clans a little more.
How many battles involved pillboxes / bunkers / pre-set kill boxes etc ….. about nil would be the answer.
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elementals would cause some havoc
And doesn’t infantry have Support PPC, SRMs, Flamers etc
Then there is access to Artillery, SRM, LRM strike … access to vehicle support … etc
Then consider the size of an infantry company – all with heavy weapons ….
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I was talking about a few worlds that would be thorns in the Clan’s pathways.
Consider heavily populated worlds should also have vast defensive capabilities that should have chewed most Clan forces to bits.
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The main way to deal with this might well be do like Camelot Command and just make it difficult or impossible to keep it supplied by the IS.
Look I see piggie flying again ….. hidden worlds principle can be applied here to resupply …
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I would like to see some remain open so the IS can keep the pressure up on the clans
Yes I too would rather prefer all battles became a little more realistic.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/22 12:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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Oh look. Another *** You are ignoring this user *** message.
So nice not to have someone asking questions that already have been answered. Things like when does the IS SL kick the clans out, when the entire thread has stated there will not be an IS SL.
Now, back to the what if.
The TPTB suggested that a lot of defenders were caught moving out to protect other areas or meet the clans in specific areas during the first few worlds attacked. Yet with the clans attacking with half the forces, this could not cover all the possible locations they would be at. Given the defenders would be spread out, either the clans dropped with more then half the numbers, or some locations would have but a single mech or star of elementals attack several units.
This spread out nature would be because the defenders would also be local unit, which are normally like the coast guard. They would be scattered around so if an emergency happens, they would have something close, not having to travel around a world to get there.
The week assault would not play out. It is suggested the same units participated in more then one assault on different worlds, which is not possible, due to travel times. Also, a lot of the units were shipped aboard the same jumpship as others. So this needs to be addressed. The clans would have to bring in more jumpships, avoiding those like the Monolith and possibly the Star Lord. Yes, the warships can be used as jumpships, but something tells me this didn't happen.
Which also needs to be addressed is it is implied the clan leaders watched the battles from the bridge of warships, which means the number and timing of attacks in a wave wasn't possible, if they were in the system when the attacks happened.
Another point that needs to be looked at. The story says the defenders asked about their forces, yet there is no mention of aerofighters being used in those attacks. As more then a few worlds would have had some and sent them to deal with the dropping mechs, this situation was never covered in the story.
As much as the clans ignored the IS wasn't some drunken bar full of wannabe warriors, they would have to have some equipment with them to recover damaged units, including dropships. We lightly covered the yardships, but that wasn't much.
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Requiem
08/25/22 07:43 PM
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with the clans attacking with half the forces, this could not cover all the possible locations they would be at
The week assault would not play out. It is suggested the same units participated in more then one assault on different worlds, which is not possible, due to travel times.
a lot of the units were shipped aboard the same jump-ship as others
Please provide Unit Designation / Worlds / Info so that we are all on the same page.
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The clans would have to bring in more jump-ships
Consider reading each Clan’s Invasion Corridor. For example ……
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Ghost_Bear
Naval Reserve, as per bid, for the Bears was supplied … including Jump-ships
2 Warships
6 Monoliths
8 Merchants
7 Scouts
6 Invaders
Additional Jump-ships, therefore, can be assumed to be attached to logistics / resupply fleets – not combat units.
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the warships can be used as jumpships, but something tells me this didn't happen.
Every Docking Collar would have had to been used to Transport the Touman
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it is implied the clan leaders watched the battles from the bridge of warships, which means the number and timing of attacks in a wave wasn't possible, if they were in the system when the attacks happened.
Yes senior officers would view the progress of the battle from a warship – view the skill of the ristar engaged in a particularly important battle due to the importance of the world. However, how does this affect the number and timing of attacks? As other ships, and their warrior complement, are sent to other worlds. A warship does not have to be at every world’s invasion.
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The story says the defenders asked about their forces, yet there is no mention of aerofighters being used in those attacks.
Which stories are these?
Errrr … isn’t it the other way around? “The attacking Clan requested from the defenders their forces complement – which they would have expected to include aerospace and conventional fighter forces …?
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they would have to have some equipment with them to recover damaged units
On the Clan home-worlds this was the job of freeborn warriors within their PGCs.
Once a world has been conquered, however, wouldn’t it fall to their freeborn techs to recover and rebuild / scrap mechs as per severity of damage – the same goes with Dropships.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/22 11:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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The two people discussing this what if see the same thing when Requiem replies. *** You are ignoring this user ***
I believe that Comstar would start actively resisting the clans at least 6 double jumps out, so 12 normal jumps, maybe sooner. I believe they would see the writing on the wall, and if Walterly thinks she can manipulate them, then the others would remove her. Who does it is the question. Focht seems to be the most likely, but for some reason, at this point, I don't think he would. The first circuit or an assassin in the company should be the one to do so.
Honestly, by this time, the clans would almost know Walterly is going to betray them. She may well have been moving units around without Focht approving them. Probably using ROM to do so.
I would also think that as the clans finish off the FRR, Walterly would activate the warship production yards, thinking she will be able to use the excuse of reinforcing worlds of the houses, by taking them, as the clans and houses fight each other bitterly.
This should result in the clans finally smashing Comstars warships every time they see them, as well as performing a deep raid on the Titan yards in Terra. They would hate having to heavily damage or even destroy those ship yards, but it would be known that if they don't, they will have to break their bids and call in for more ships, and even then, it might not be soon enough. Who knows. Maybe the Ravens could be called in to deal with this. They may know how to disable the yards without having to destroy them. As the Sol system isn't the prize, but Terra is, this may well be a way to sidestep the invasion agreement. I doubt the invasion clans want to risk their few ships they have making this run, so would agree to a side amendment to allow this. Maybe even agreeing to let the Ravens rebuild and use them once Terra is secured.
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Requiem
08/26/22 02:15 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
I believe that Comstar would start actively resisting the clans at least 6 double jumps out, so 12 normal jumps, maybe sooner.
In my opinion Distance is hardly a factor for determining when to begin an offensive against the Clans.
A more appropriate factor is that of politics – such as the discover of the Clans objective, that of Terra.
With the discovery of Terra as their objective it now becomes imperative for the ComGuards to be implemented in stopping the Clans advance.
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if Walterly thinks she can manipulate them, then the others would remove her
Anastasius Focht would have supplied the first circuit with detailed explanation as to the Clans – this would have included their psychology – So how can you manipulate a zealot in forgoing their ‘almost quasi-religious dream’ that their messiah (Kerensky) gave them?
That said if she still didn’t understand then her position would have been cut short by a more politically sound Precentor in collusion with Focht.
Note: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Allen_Rusenstein
“n a private session that same year, the First Circuit voted by a majority to ask Rusenstein to resign for his failures in both the Dragoon problem and the Jolly Roger Affair. While the First Circuit had the ability to simply remove him as Primus, thanks to the legal powers enacted by Gregori Hartford, they gave the aging Rusenstein the courtesy of allowing him to leave under his own terms.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gregori_Hartford
“using his high level support on the First Circuit to pass several reforms that permitted the First Circuit to name a successor to the Primus or to remove a Primus from power on the full vote of all Precentors.”
Question where were these powers when it came to Primus Myndo Waterly?
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by this time, the clans would almost know Walterly is going to betray them
How, when the Clans only contact is with Anastasius Focht – and they view him as a jumped up telecom executive and not a warrior at all?
Sorry but I disagree – they need real intel on Waterly – and the only info to hand is ComStar’s acolytes they have captured to date as well as any press cuts (if they would even bother to find these as intelligence gathering on individuals is not really that big on their repertoire.)
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She may well have been moving units around without Focht approving them. Probably using ROM to do so.
Very difficult unless they are special forces that are off book!
Regulars have a chain of command – orders are via military GHQ – not civilian. Command.
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I would also think that as the clans finish off the FRR, Walterly would activate the warship production yards
Too little too late – considering manufacturing timeline if ComStar doesn’t start asap how will they have a sizeable fleet to combat the Clans ….
Politically they are being incredibly foolish that they believe they can cut a deal with them, as there will never be a deal with the Clans to be found!
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thinking she will be able to use the excuse of reinforcing worlds of the houses, by taking them, as the clans and houses fight each other bitterly.
Sorry but this really doesn’t make sense.
How can you reinforce a world if you are at the same time conquering them?
The only way forward at this point in time is to form an military alliance with FC, DC, and FRR.
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This should result in the clans finally smashing Comstars warships every time they see them
Return to Pax Clan strategy of TPTB? How about a little reality? Battle of the River Plate or Bismarck or Midway for example, there are many examples of how the navy can get involved – or even if you go back far enough how about Battle of the Nile?
What it comes down to is number of ships and their type …
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performing a deep raid on the Titan yards in Terra
When did the Clans warfare type shift to the forward deep raids? Clan battle strategy was – look at the map and hit the next world in the line irrespective of defensive capabilities.
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they will have to break their bids and call in for more ships
Loss of honour – how will the home clans react?
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Maybe the Ravens could be called in to deal with this.
Operation Revival – determining bids for next in line – so who is after Nova Cats and Diamond Sharks? Not I as ilKhan will call up _____ Clan.
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Terra as the prize
And what about Mars as a consultation prize – if you cannot have Terra why not take a planet / Lunar base in the Terran system?
So Lunar Base, Mars, etc. as objectives to be won?
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Maybe even agreeing to let the Ravens rebuild and use them once Terra is secured.
Given? Clans are not given anything – they win through feat of arms – combat!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/26/22 11:02 AM)
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ghostrider
08/26/22 11:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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Putting a little more thought into the clans winning, I believe that the CC assault would be the way to go.
Might include the FWL in there, so they could take back their worlds and protect them, while the FC deals with the main assaults.
Another way to hurt the IS, might be to have the FWL refuse to make the refit kits, or at least refused to sell them to the others. As the refit kits are implied to have only begun during the year of peace, without this, the agreement may never have been reached or even discussed. We know in the canon story, that the FC gave the FWL tech to start making items the FWL didn't have the knowledge for.
This comes from the one time where Hanse said he was not going to allow Thomas to blackmail them into given up more planets or tech to continue the refit production. This point seemed to have been left out of the actual story line, as there is no where that planets changed hands until the Joshua war happened.
It might also be something to look at Skye deciding the FC was not going to stop the clans, so decided to try for independence, and turned to the FWL to help make that a reality. Yes, it would be absolutely foolish to even attempt this during the invasion, but leaders are not always known to do the smart thing during times like this. Granted, this could well have been done just after the first contact with the clans in the outer reaches of the LC area. The idea could be the DC moving forces around their border, and the FC not listening to the Skye governors complaints to put more units under their control.
Additionally, or maybe as the reason, with the FRR being formed, the DC would be concentrated along the Skye border as it was about the only area that was touching the DC on the LC half.
If you want to add in Comstar having some 'intel' that the DC was making moves around the top of the FRR before making strikes into the Skye region, that could work as well. This could well cover the clans first strikes into the FC. The same could be done against the DC as well.
The DC could suffer from the same 'intel' to cover Comstars involvement with the invading clans for a while.
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Karagin
08/28/22 10:14 PM
70.118.172.64
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Short and dirty for the Combine.
The Combine is facing a three-front war. They have the Bears down towards what is becoming a wedge towards Terra. It affects them as the wedge drives through the FRR and thus puts the Bears on their left far flank. They have the Jaguars and the Nova Cars on the Center (Jaguars) and Right Flanks (Nova Cats).
Theodore is not one to miss this. So I would see him going with lines of resistance. First would be the Pesht Line. This would be centered on Pesht and run up to McAlister and down Tanh Limh. This would be the main line.
Next would be the Arkab Line, which would run from Camlann to Dumaring and include Babuyan and Aubission. These two lines would have the most modern and reinforced Combine units. The idea is that, units would fight until they could not be effective and either go to ground and become guerrilla units or pull off world and fall back deeper into the Prefectures to the next fortified worlds. Fortified in that the worlds have supplies and repair bases, etc...
The Echo Line runs the Right flank into the Periphery and is where the Nova Cats would be engaged at in this setting; this would tie with the fallback line, in this case, The Qandahar Line, which would run from Qandahar to Chorley to Brihuega to Nowhere.
Some units would not fall back but would jump into the rear of the Jaguars or Cats' advance and attack the worlds they had previously taken.
For example, say the Echo Line falls, and the Jaguars are now attacking Leyland; the Combine would have already had units fall back. Still, some units from Echo Line would have jumped into the Sawyer system and attacked the Jaguar forces there. The idea is that the Jaguars would have given up the attack on Leyland to deal with the attack on Sawyer or pulled troops from other worlds in their OZ and diverted them to Sawyer, which would open them to attacks by other Combine forces.
Now, this has a lot of drawbacks and issues. Nor is it perfect, but it uses the space for time concept and gives the Combine the chance to use whiplash tactics against them. And for the record, Wolf told Theodore the same thing or something similar in the novel Wolf Pack.
If things go wrong, they lose everything from Luithen across to Soul/Enif, which would be a blow but not one they would be defeated from. The Combine could still come back from that. I don't Theodore playing the regular Combine games, not after the Outreach Conference or after Wolcott. I see a leaner DCMS, where many hide-bound generals and higher ranking officers are transferred or retired. Massive changes to how the Combine deals with mercs will be happening. Slow going, but they will need to change since they will need the firepower and forces. Plus, they will need more of everything, not just mechs. Expect an increase in infantry and armor units, along with aerospace.
Given how the Combine will borrow for an enemy if the tactic or trick works, I would not be surprised if I don't see a version of the RCT appear in the Combine also.
As for the typical political intrigue and honor stuff, that will be running its ordinary course, and the ISF will be running its' regular bloodletting to keep things sane. The Kurita clan will do everything possible to settle things and win their war with the Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/29/22 01:09 AM
45.51.181.83
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As suggested before, the IS could very well have been fighting a very good fight. The only reason they were being pushed back in the beginning is Comstar blocking transmissions from getting out, which included intel. The addition of the Vipers/Cats was because the IS was pushing back hard, and the others needed some relief from someone flanking the DC/FC.
The FC/DC winning battles may still be the case, it is just so many clan units means they can not deal with the focus in the line to Terra, but have at least neutralized the push towards Luthien and others. With Comstar's butt being on the line, they may well be getting the intel they need to effect a better defense. But with the Cats/Vipers doing the flanking maneuvering, they can not focus on Terra. The houses may well try to let the clans threaten Terra as a means to get the CC and FWL involved. Comstar might well help push that to happen, as they are the ones that will lose the most when Terra falls.
I would agree with some units actually doing normal IS tactics and striking deeper behind the enemy lines. I could see this being helped by Comstar as the Comguards get moved from interior positions in the house realms and sent to the front. This would also include more jumpships and dropships, allowing the forces to make a deep raid run into the flankers as well as the Jaguars/Falcons. whether the two houses would trust them enough to coordinate would be a question, but even if Comstar did it just themselves, it would help prevent the two houses from being overwhelmed.
I could also see Comstar having a mothballed fleet of jumpships, while they were upgrading to their own ship, so others would not mistake them for enemy craft in the years leading up to the 4th war. Releasing those ships to be sold to the DC/FC could help with moving troops to do so.
It could also be a backlash on Comstar as Comstar thought those troops would be shipped to the path of the clans, instead of being sent to deal with the extreme flankers. Meaning the houses thought to force Comstar's punishment by make them deal with the clans on Terra, while they secured their flanks.
Given one of the big rivalries in the DCMS is fighter pilots and mech warriors don't really get along well, they may be forced into the RCT thinking. So yeah. I do see them adapting a closer operating procedure with that.
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Karagin
08/29/22 02:24 PM
70.118.172.64
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ComStar will be playing their game, trying not to show they screwed up and then acting like they always do, alofe and snobbish. They won't send troops out to the flanks. Sorry, but I don't see them doing that. They put their forces right in front of the Wolves. Bears and Falcons.
They won't give a flying wet turd about the FC or the DC. They want to keep Terra and what they can hold around it. That is all. So as the front shifts closer to Terra, see them worrying about ComStar first and foremost.
I don't see them selling anything to anyone until things look terrible for them, and only at that point. They already saw how gifts to the Combine got them nothing in the long run so they will be playing their cards a bit more on the cautious side. Now we know that one of their inner circle is a spy. We know Waterly will not make it much longer as Primus, so once ComStar has a change of leadership, maybe we will see something closer to the canon take of them sharing, but until a coup happens, I don't see them sharing.
They could offer things like munitions and such, but even then, that might not be seen as much by the Houses. What I do see ConStar being good at is getting the FWL into the fight. At this point, they still control the fake Thomas, so they can pressure him to send troops forward to help the FC and keep supplies going to the front. Another thing ComStar can do is shut down the CC's surprise attack on the FC. Depending on when that happens before or after Terra falls or while the fighting is going on, that could be a big help that ComStar offers before they fade off.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/29/22 04:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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I wasn't suggesting that Comstar would send forces to the flanks. I was suggesting Comstar would sell ships to the houses, thinking the houses would ship more troops to the push, but the houses would use the extra ships to move troops to protect the house flanks.
I was thinking that Comstar pushing the CC to help, might actually be the catalyst for the CC hitting the FC. Comstar might be desperate enough, or might believe the CC leadership at the time, that they would not try to retake worlds. And find out the hard way, that is exactly what they were going to do.
The idea that when Comstar started making their own jumpship line, they would have retained those ships they got and put them into storage. Seeing the houses struggle to move troops would be the main reason to sell they old mothballed ones, minus any advanced tech they might have, as well as wiping the nav computer of all sensitive data.
A question comes up on when Comstar will deploy their warships? If I recall right, only during the offensive to remove the Jaguars, did the IS learn of the warships. Comstar didn't deploy them when they fought the truce battle.
I would think both of these things would happen when the clans are within 4 to 6 jumps of Terra.
The jumpships could be a form of gaining support from the DC and FC to help stop the clans before they hit Terra, which I was suggesting the houses would use those ship to hit the flankers, not add support to Comstar's defense.
I would also believe Comstar would start training crews with the warships as the last of the FRR falls.
I disagree with the gifts the DC received not gaining them anything. They did stop the FC from removing a chunk of DC space as well as stopping the 3039 invasion pretty cold. As the DC is the main threat to the FC, it worked. Not the way they wanted it to, but it did it's job. As for the advanced tech, that was not something they were supposed to know about.
Now having Comstar shut down the CC's attack after it starts does make sense. It could well be the attack was only a couple of worlds. Just enough to divert some forces from the clans path, as they would be the closest, without dragging more from the FS main marches, the Capellan and Crusis Marches.
The question here is if Sandavol will attack the DC, or move to reinforce the area around Terra. In this scenario, I could see Sandavol hitting a few DC worlds in the Terra area, under the guise of reinforcing those worlds. If the DC pulled forces from those areas to try and protect the main area near Luthien and such, this would probably happen.
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Karagin
08/29/22 07:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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The point I was making was the gifts of the mechs and such to the Combine from ComStar didn't get ComStar anything significant. It bought the Combine a lot, but the pay to ComStar wasn't much other than a slap to Hanse Davion and tipping their hand too early.
ComStar should have and could have given the Combine current model mechs, aka what they had of Riflemen, Warhammers, etc...not Kintros, Highlanders, Thorns, etc...that was like handing over Stinger missiles to a guerrilla and saying you had no idea how they got them. In other words lousy move by ComStar. One would think they would have learned from that, maybe.
So for them to provide Jumpships, that's going to be seen as too little too late by many of the Houses' officials and leaders. ComStar is in a tight spot regardless of what they do or doesn't do. They have no real chance of making up for three centuries of fighting the Houses over technology. So, they will be hard-pressed to be seen as anything more than Trying to take advantage of things even now.
I think their best bet would be to focus on the FWL and getting things built up so that they have something to fall back to. ComStar surviving Terra falling is something I don't see happening, not as the same organization. No, I don't see them turning into a version of the canon Word of Blake; that was the dumbest overdone trope in the game for TPTB to bring back. Yes, I called it dumb. Why? Oh, let's reset the universe, again, so instead of a logical way that is thought out, let's dust off the Amaris idea, call it something else, and reuse it again, but this time, let's make sure we do it right not to have loopholes or need major retcon, oh wait dropped that ball...you get the point.
ComStar working with the imposter in the FWL gives them the chance to get more bang for the buck, and it allows them to sell things to the Houses since they would be investing in the FWL. It would mean they would have to drop some of their "mystical" ways, but at the same point, some of the nutjobs would be off fighting the Clans, so the crazy would go with them. They can sell their message of saving Mankind to the masses, and the FWL is known to be more receptive to ComStar than the other Houses. So if things fall apart, ComStar might have a bolt hole to run to. Maybe.
I agree they could be fooled by the CC in that they go open arms, say look, we got it; you want worlds back, let's get rid of the Clans first, then we can see about resettling the border issues, because if we as a whole don't stop the Clans they will tell you what to do, and you won't be telling them anything. Laio is okay, yeah, good idea, okay, we send troops to give us three months, boom they send them right into the FS and hit worlds. ComStar shuts off the HPGs in the CC. Invasion stopped cold.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/29/22 08:54 PM
45.51.181.83
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I agree that Comstar should have gotten the DC normal mechs, not the ones that only SL historians knew what they were. The play they may have tried to pass off, which doesn't show up in canon, would be the DC found an SL cache, and didn't receive the units from Comstar. It would have been possible in canon to have done so, but wasn't.
Given Walterly was looking for any way to stop the FC, slapping Hanse in the face would have been fine for her, but as for the rest of the first circuit, it was embarrassing. It provided the reason for the intel shadow war.
I do think Walterly would have preferred the FC lose far more then what it did.
A little to little would sum it up, but it would have been something to start showing the houses that they meant business. Maybe even a bribe to get them to forget they actually helped the clans at first. Not likely to happen, but something.
It is also possible that they wanted to get anything in mothball out of Terra and the 'hidden' worlds before the clans got to them. Who knows. Maybe it is how they get the FWL and/or the CC involved in the fight. Given the CC's losses during the 4th war, and a lack of ability to really gain much back, it may well be how the CC does anything. I doubt the chancellor would risk their ships and forces, even for Comstar.
I agree that there should be no chance of WOB future as the canon line presents. Though I do wonder if Comstar would split into 4 groups with each one siding with each house. Might be a little too much spreading out. Though it does need to be asked if Focht would take the warships left from the fight into the LC portion of the FC, to try and help them gain back some worlds. With Walterly out of it, there are some possibilities that may come from it.
Also, would Comstar sabotage or outright destroy factories in Sol? The ship yards are only part of what is there. This would also have to question about non Comstar controlled assets there as well, such as Aldis (I believe). Demolishers, Behemoths and Schreks being built there.
The CC concept was originally thought to suggest they would help defend Terra and such, but turn against Comstar to retake old CC worlds. But I could also see Comstar suggesting, without committing to, taking worlds owned by the CC.
The issue is I honestly don't see the FC trusting Liao forces enough to even let them cross the border, much less get that deep into their territory to even get close to Terra.
One way to lessen this is Liao forces being limited to using only Comstar jumpships. This could limit the CC to a few worlds, if we do go the retaking worlds route.
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Karagin
08/29/22 09:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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They may try a scorched earth move, but I do not see the nobles and magnets on Terra allowing it. Likely, with things falling apart, a rebellion would be more of a worry than blowing up or damaging factories. Terrans are going to worry about themselves first and foremost.
No, I see the CC doing just that, taking back what they think is theirs and then a bit for payback. They would do the whole stab the other Houses in the back to get revenge. Sun-Tzu would quickly exploit things, and the St. Ives area would be one of the first places "invaded" shortly after his forces landed on former CC worlds around Terra to "allow the troops there to move to face the Clans", aka retreat off world.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/30/22 06:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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The rich on Terra are a question in itself.
Do they believe the clans are out to destroy anything that isn't clan or follow their ways?
Or are they like the IS houses, that have some degree of leeway when dealing with them?
How much of the information they receive is modified from the truth, as we know Comstar is playing multiple games?
I wonder if the clans would outright take factories and even their funds as the clans don't deal with merchants well. The Wolves might not have an issue with the money, though they would enforce the clans monetary systems. This would cause problems for the nobles, as some of their funds is 'liquid', meaning tied up in illegal things that would become even more illegal when the clans take over.
How many would volentarily move off Terra along with their money making industries?
I can honestly see more then a few of them being executed for trying to bribe clan members, as well as speaking out against them, as they think their money and old positions of power will prevent punishment.
And yes. I can see more then a few quick rebellions happening as each noble house, or rich merchant decides to fight against he change that will happen. Not sure if they will band together, or just rebel as their power is assaulted.
I could see both happening, as most would believe, at first, that they are immune to such a problem. Then come to realize there is no immunity from the clans. I could see a lot of the black market drying up along with this.
I could see a war breaking out between the CC and SIC. Thinking about it, this may be more likely then trying for the 'chaos march' worlds. Punish Candace and her family as well as bringing CC worlds back into the fold. The punishment part would probably be the deciding factor here.
This does lead to another question.
Does the FC perform some major strikes into the CC, to avoid further issues while they deal with the clans, as a good amount of readied troops would be in the general area?
Again, this could well be part of why the clans take Terra. I could see the FWL deciding that the CC has to go after this as well. Hang together or Hang separately comes to mind.
I would think Comstar might help push that thought as well.
It is against the nature of the Liao's, but maybe they actually do enter and support the IS in their war against the clans. Though this thought might fit a what if that the IS thrashes the clans.
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Karagin
08/30/22 08:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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The CapCon stabbing the FC/FS in the back while they are fighting Clans would, for them, be normal business because the Clans are not on their doorstep. They want revenge on Hanse Davion. This would be their way of getting it.
The blowback would be them fighting the St. Ives Compact, what is left of the FC forces in the FS, and maybe FWL if things like bioweapons are used. ComStar would turn on the CapCon, ONLY if Waterly is dead and gone. If she is still in charge of things, they won't do anything but worry about Terra. If she is gone, they might free up some forces to fight the CapCon and shut off the HPGs, but even then, they may not turn them off for long.
The CapCon going after the FedCom as payback would likely be one of the major reasons the Wolves take Terra. It would factor into things mainly for the single reason it will divide the attention of the FedCom leadership and their military. They will need to stop a two-front war, not a single front. Also, it could be the kick-off to other areas that might want to break away or it might invite the Taurians too invade as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/30/22 09:34 PM
45.51.181.83
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That would be interesting to postulate.
The big houses falling apart from internal situations, like those wanting to break away, but couldn't while the houses had their big forces and little to distract them.
Taking Terra might well create the same situation within the clans, as each would constantly call for trials of refusal, or outright ignoring the agreement and start a free for all within them.
This would be good for mercs, as everywhere you look, someone needs forces. We know the clans wouldn't hire mercs per se, but given some would be destroyed without the help, they may well choose some loss of 'honor'. Given the type of warfare that would happen, it would well be a multi faction civil war with them. I could see the clans ganging up on other, or just constantly waving one until they couldn't hold out any more.
This could well spread to the periphery as well, with the TC finally tired of the ruling houses management, only to find out their supposed allies and supporters have decided they should rule.
Skye finally gets enough going to pull out, only to have Defiance decide to carve out their own empire.
This would be a major break up of the canon story line, so it may not fit this what if.
I could see each faction gaining control of the HPG in their controlled area, but have issues with those around them. The clans would have an advantage there, as they have HPGs on their ships.
But ambition might negate this as different factions in each clan rise up.
But back to the what if we have going...
It might be interesting to have the CC strike at Comstar if they do interdict them for hitting the FS/FC. Maybe they think they can run the HPG themselves. This could further cause Terra to lose some defenders, as well as accelerate the loss of Terra. It would remove Sunny from power permanently. Maybe Candace would be able to take the reigns and get back on good terms with Comstar with it.
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Karagin
08/30/22 10:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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The CC going after ComStar for an Interdiction would be something they would do since ComStar attacked them first. That in turn, might drag in the FWL, which would be a blow to the CapCon, but I just don't see the fake Thomas really being all for that, and he might push back against it but also turn somewhat of a blind eye to the dukedoms and duchies raiding and such.
The other stuff you mentioned might happen since things are always boiling in the houses. One or more nobles might indeed rise, and the same will happen on Terra once they see ComStar failing to protect them. And yes, I think many of the nobles and magnets and such would try to work out a deal with the Clans or buy favor only to find out that isn't going to work out so well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/30/22 11:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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Depending on how much chaos is wanted, I had thought the dukedoms and such would finally decide House Marik had to go the way of the Camerons. A full scale civil war with no one to help or stop it. The LC could well be hit by some of the factions, that in turn causes even more problems trying to stop the clans.
One possible thing to set this off is someone finding out Thomas isn't related to the Marik line. DNA samples taken from years past are compared to Thomas could be done.
They may well have started this right after it was learned that Max Liao had replaced Hanse at one point, so wanted to make sure it never happened in the FWL. This could well come from Isis trying to exert power for the throne.
Without trying for mass chaos, how much pull did the rich on Terra have in power in the other realms?
Once Terra falls, do problems crop up on other realms? Or does it calm down?
Do those that see the writing on the wall put out a call for any and all mercs to try and liberate Terra?
Do they try this call before the clans even reach Terra?
I could see a wave of mercs trying to reach Terra, only to be caught by the flanking clans as they get in the way of the clans next push, which delays them from the actual assault on Terra. The clans and mercs both. This fight could be why the flankers couldn't bid, as the fight caused a lot of damage to those clans that they ran into.
This does not have to stick with just what is here. If you think having a wave of mercs run into the clans elsewhere, that could work as well. Same with all of it.
The rich could well decide to send mercs to guard their assets on another world. This could well tie into the Black Dragons, as some of their supporters may well be funding them from Terra.
This could also be where some extra equipment comes from as well. The rich on Terra sending out machines to the houses to help stop the clans outside of Comstar's influence.
I don't know if Comstar would sell things like Jumpships to those rich living on Terra. Not the high end stuff, but normal IS models.
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Karagin
08/31/22 10:04 AM
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Terra falling is going to be a blow to the whole house of cards. Many will see it as their chance to strike while things are confusing, giving them their best shot. Others will try for more concessions and things like that. The Clan Invasion will show that the Houses, while tough, are paper tigers.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/31/22 11:10 AM
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We interrupt your regularly scheduled broadcast with a special news bulletin.
Katherine Steiner-Davion is confirmed dead.
The first daughter of Prince Hanse Davion and Archon Melissa Steiner is confirmed killed in battle as her Invader class jumpship "Ding Dong" had jumped into the (Redacted) system on an unknown mission.
An enormous space battle, involving a Jade Falcon warship, was raging as the FC tried to retake the world, when the Ding Dong jumped in too close to battle. The 2 Vengeance carriers "The Wicked Witch" and the "Is Dead" were attached as protection for Katherine.
"The Falcon warship used the naval weapons it had and utterly destroyed the jumpship, and then the fighter carriers.
Survivors said that the Falcons were using ECM to jam all frequencies, so even if the Ding Dong tried to surrender, it would not have gotten a message thru." according to Admiral Ozzy "The Great Oz" Spellman.
Tribute to Katherine will be next Tuesday at 6:00 PM.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
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ghostrider
09/06/22 02:54 AM
45.51.181.83
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Figured that would be a good way to remove Katherine from the story line, though you could use other characters to be rid of that way as well, though renaming the ships would be necessary.
For some stupid reason, the concept got stuck in my head and I had to type it out.
I do think that once the clans take Terra, or as they approach it, the houses will finally start becoming much better at fighting them. As said before, Comstar blocking coms from the houses people on world did a lot to hamper the normal ways the IS fights.
I would think that unless a deal is made, the houses would finally start actually pushing the clans back some, or hold them from advancing in most areas. I would think the clans would have to figure out how to fight the succession war style or run the risk of being bled out.
This would even be true once the clans start building factories in the IS, as personnel is the key factor here. Granted, until the IS can get a few warships going, that would be a major concern, but I could see the clans being forced to use the warships to escort their valuable cargo, IE reinforcement personnel and such, then attacking with them.
I would also think that the clans would have to increase the units they have, not only in the IS, but in the home worlds as well. I have yet to hear of any reserve forces the clans had back in the home worlds, which suggests they have all their eggs in one basket, in the IS. I believe a galaxy is very roughly equal to a regiment in numbers, so losing even a single Overlord dropship, fully loaded, would hurt their forces. Yes, they have poor logistics in the beginning, replacing the machines is easier then replacing the experienced pilots, no matter the games tag line.
Not sure how often they create a new sibko, but even having a dozen a year, would be replacing roughly 1 to 3 trinaries, figuring 1 to 3 recruits per sibko being passed.
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Karagin
09/06/22 05:49 PM
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Given how fluid things would be, I am sure that many "leaders" and "royalty" would be caught behind the lines or in the crossfire as the front shifts.
I can imagine many holodramas showing the brave heroine caught in the crossfire of the evil Clan attack force and how our hero braves this murderous death to save her, blah, blah, blah...and I am sure it would be the best-rated show in many of the House markets for a few years. But of course, we would see the endless Solaris 7 death matches of the former Fed-Com super warrior who fought the Clan Viper (note that part) to stand still on this Periphery world and single-handedly killed their saKhan in unarmed combat while hungover. Of course, all the right genderings are used so as to make sure the censors are kept happy. No hangovers were hurt in the making of this mockumetry.
The Inner Sphere Tabloids would have a field day with her going out the way you mentioned.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/07/22 03:07 AM
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It could well follow part of canon, when she went looking for help against the Falcons. This may well be how she was caught.
I could see a few movies where the hero has one shot left in his ac 5, and takes down 4 clan mechs with a nice ricochet set up, like in the old westerns.
Given how much damage Kai did, and how he repelled Comstar during operation scorpion, it is a shock the FC did not try to make him a hero along with Victor. But with movies and even halovids, it is possible to set off a few clan commanders by insulting their egos, gording them into making mistakes in order to make those people suffer. Might be another way to distract the flankers. Portrait the clan commanders as cowards that only come out to take the last shot that ends a battle.
This could work in the other way as well, though not as good. Thinking clan Diamond Shark makes a few videos making the house leaders look like the three stooges. This could well be done to get the FWL and CC involved in the war.
So what do you think Ulric would do with the flanking clans once Terra is taken?
Do they spread out where they are at, or drive towards Terra, forming a 'shield' to prevent the houses from being able to reach it.
One more thing is they could drive towards Terra, then spread out.
I don't think Ulric would seal off Terra, as the Wolves will need to be able to strike at the enemy, or lose face with the clans, even though they would be the ilclan.
Much like the issues with canon and the truce line. The Wolves and Bears had no way to expand their territory. I would think this would be an issue if the other clans do surround Terra.
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Karagin
09/07/22 11:05 AM
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I think he would have them do both, spread out some, and then drive in towards Terra. I agree; he would not seal off Terra, and having a border that faced possible future enemies would mean the Wolves would be able to test their mettle against the new forces.
Ulric would be at a good point, and it would be a good move by having the other Clans nearby and there to absorb some of the blows from the remaining Inner Sphere military forces. It also means that the Inner Sphere is still facing the Clans as a whole, not as individual political units. So the odds of them pulling off Bulldog are not going to happen at this point.
With Terra in the hands of the Wolves, I do see things changing for the rest of the Inner Sphere. There will we be a lull in the fighting. Everyone will be regrouping, especially the Clans, and things like the treachery from the CapCon need to be dealt with. The FWL will have its own issues as it integrates the ComStar refugees, the same for the FC and DC.
The FC is going to be hard-pressed more so than the other IS power. They are still going to be struggling to keep a link between their two halves open. And the tragic loss of Victor's sister, the determination to fight, will be there. (hey, it's about the only valuable and meaningful thing she could give)
As we said, the remaining Periphery powers will be restless, and some, like the TC, will try to take advantage of things and settle old scores. Others will hire mercs and prepare for the worse.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/07/22 11:47 AM
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Do you think the other clans might pause a little before moving closer to Terra?
Like stall for time and see if the IS can remove the clans from Terra?
If the Wolves lose Terra, does that mean they lose the Ilclan title? I know it was supposed to be into purpetuity, but with the clans, you must show you can hold it or you don't deserve it.
I could see the crusaders using something like this to allow another clan to take the title, even though they were not the first.
Maybe just moving more forces closer to Terra, using the reinforcement concept as an excuse?
They might have to, as the lose of warships would happen. As the clans are psychologically tied to warships, as canon brought up, they might be a bit more reluctant to head forward until they get more in the IS. As the scenario of Rassalhauge would not have unfolded the way it did in canon, the bidding away of the warships wouldn't have happened. It could still happen, but changed up a little.
Thinking about it a little more, it may well be that the Jaguars were so embarrassed by Turtle Bay, they may well have gone on a rampage in the DC, causing more damage without using warships, but also hurting their own forces by pushing that much harder. This could well have hurt their standing among the other clans, and even lead to trials back home. It would only cause them to slow down on further assaults, but not stop them. This could well be used by the Cats to embarrass them even further, by making it appear the Jaguars would not hold the flank, allowing them more access to taking Jaguar worlds as well as DC worlds. Yet another reason why the Jaguars were not able to reach Terra before the Wolves take it.
The lack of the Batchall from the Falcons could have the same effect, but not nearly as pronounced. Just set it up so the Falcons had to endure more worlds being given over to the Vipers, as well as hindering their advance as more worlds would be bid on with lower forces, causing more casualties for the Falcons and Vipers both.
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Karagin
09/07/22 03:19 PM
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I could see the Clans pausing. Doing the whole "Well, the Wolves took it, let's see if they can hold it" thing. Or we might see one Clan go, forget that and try to dislodge them, only to find out that the game, so to speak, has changed.
A pause is going to happen. Regardless of Ulric's clever, the fighting will be brutal, and he will need time to rebuild and regroup. Supplies would need to be brought up, and new planets would need to be garrisoned, etc... Each Clan will need the time to rebuild.
The Inner Sphere will require the lull more, so, as I stated, they are the ones who are going to have to get their "house" to either find a way to unite or find common ground, or it is going to be lights out for them one at a time. The CapCon's little MacBeth moment has to be dealt with, the FWL will need the time to adjust, and the LC/FS halves of the FC are going to have to really rethink a lot of things and prepare for some tough times ahead.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/07/22 04:26 PM
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If the FC splits, how is that going to affect the ruling line?
Would Victor stay in the LC half to try and defend them, or head to the FS side?
This is not even touching the units that were mixed, which some might stay where they are, while others will demand to head back home.
As there are LC troops in the terran (chaos) march, would they stay there, or head home?
Granted, part of this is questions before the Terran March is shut down. Afterward, the question remains, but get complicated by the available jumpships and how to get to the other side. The Terran March would be the only safe way, as the clans will not tolerate any enemy ships in their area, while trying to go thru the FWL and CC would result in issues like that as well. Even using uninhabited systems wouldn't be a good idea, as the clans would probably have something checking or even guarding them. The reason for this is they are the easiest ways the IS can strike the clans in soft spots. Bypass the front lines.
This is also suggesting the entire Terran March is taken, which isn't likely for a while. The FWL lost worlds are the weakest link here, as the CC lost worlds goes pretty deep into the old CC territory.
As long as there is some communications, the FC might try to hold out, if nothing more then sharing intel on clan movements. For physically moving units, that is a tough one. I would think once the small area taken from the FWL during the 4th war is clan occupied, the FC would probably break up, but not in a hostile way. It may leave a path open to reforming, once they can secure physical contact. Which, in this what if, may never come about.
At this point, it may well be necessary to remove the Liao house entirely, and try to ally with the FWL. Given Thomas's personality, this is doubtful at best.
I would think the most likely scenario to dealing with the CC, is using the St. Ives Compact issue. If Sunny hits the SIC, then the FC could use that as the reason to invade the CC once and for all. Yes, this is going to really cause issues with the clan front, but done right, it could be why the clans get to Terra.
It may actually work with Isis finding out Thomas is not her father, and causing a revolt to remove him. This could well lead to the houses finally getting enough push to work close together, but NOT forming the SL. Another name would be appropriate, so all remember the SL is dead, and caused a lot of the issues they fact today, including the clans.
Hmmm. A simple assassination of Thomas might work as well. Avoid blaming the FC, while possibly using this as a means to remove Sunny.
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Karagin
09/07/22 06:00 PM
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I think it will depend on how Hanse and Messlisa sell it. If they keep the charade up that the Fed-Com is still a thing, it might be business as usual. However, the different groups bent on breaking away will try something if the Clans split the two haves.
I can see Sunny going after the SIC and then making a whiplashing into the former CC worlds that Hanse took in the Fourth War when the FC troops moved to help the SIC. This would be a good move on his part since it would be using the enemy's own tactics against them. His biggest issue will be ComStar's response. Along with what comes from the FWL and the Periphery nations. Now, if he has the Magistrat and the Concordat allied with him, then I can see a more significant issue for the FC at this point as well for the FWL. He would be using the Clans' flanking tactics to gain an advantage over a stronger opponent, If that happens, the Fed-Com might be in more trouble, and collapse might be coming faster than just from the Clans splitting things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/07/22 06:44 PM
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The clans initial wins were because no one but Comstar and the worlds attacked knew what was going on, and their greater tech. The IS always had the greater numbers and the willingness to sacrifice vehicles and infantry to bleed the enemy.
The canon story didn't really use this to good effect. When Comstar stops helping the clans, then more up to date attacks would give the houses the time to hit recently taken worlds or those that are behind the lines. Just knowing where the warships are/aren't would give them some breathing room. Where they are, would give them a chance to overwhelm them with fighter and assault dropships. Even just damaging them would force them to go for repairs, making planetary assaults more likely to succeed then having the warships show up and strand any in system forces.
This is not suggesting easy fights, just that the houses would have a better idea of where the front line is currently at. Guerilla tactics would force the front line to take far longer to conquer worlds, or even abandon them to the 2nd line or solemha units, which would backfire on the clans that did so.
Honestly, I really think the clans would need additional clans or risk losing more then a few worlds. It may well be that clans can take Terra, but the corridors are only a few jumps wide. Meaning maybe something like 5 jumps for each at best. The focus being take Terra, and worry about the rest later.
No, I don't see Ulric believing that tactic would work. I do see him excellerating the attacks to hamstring the others, making them take a massive beating to even try to keep up. Even with the Vipers and Cats, I don't see major spreading out until Terra is taking.
And yes, I do believe the other clans will push for trials unending against the Wolves to try and take Terra, even though their agreement was first to take it becomes the eternal ilclan.
I could see politics using the fact that the Wolves never competed to join the invasion, so never suffered the trials to participate. This could be the basis of refusing to adhere to the agreement for the invasion.
Oddly enough, I could also see some of the IS helping the Wolves to destroy a few of the clans because of this. Simply constant attacks on a couple of clans until they fall completely. Given the rivalry of the Vipers and the Falcons, along with the Jaguars and Cats, this could well force the flankers into a full collapse. The Bears being the question here. Do they try and hit the Wolves, or just build their domain in the IS?
As a side question, would the Bears stop once the FRR is defeated and just build their new homes there?
Or would they decide to leave their population back in the home worlds and commit entirely to the fight?
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Karagin
09/07/22 10:42 PM
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Ulric could use the internal Clan issues to cause the Crusaders to rip into each other and cause the whole thing to collapse, thus proving his point from the start that the Inner Sphere is not helpless, and thus the Clans should not be fighting them.
Lots of potential post-Fall of Terra stuff, and while the Inner Sphere might be getting a leg up with ComStar not helping the Clans, they still would not have up-to-date info either. They would not be 100% on where the warships are; recall, the issue is the Inner Sphere doesn't know if the Clans have refitted them with Lithium Batteries. That will mean any attack could have warships with them. I think you are giving far too much credence to ComStar and their wanting to work with the House military. They might share some intel, but Terra is all that matters for them. I don't see them doing anything beyond helping when it suits them, nothing more.
The House militaries will use infantry and vehicles as cannon-fodder to buy time, same with merc units. That would be something they would indeed be doing, More so for the DC than the FC, but it would still be done by both.
The Bears, now that is tricky, want a new home, but at the same time, they are Clan. I think they would push some forces forward while moving their full Touman in the right behind them, which would give them a leg up on the other Clans. It might also cause them trouble since it would look like they are abandoning the Way and all that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/08/22 12:16 AM
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I was going to suggest the Dragoons would have known and supplied intel on the clans refitting the warships with the batteries, but since the meeting didn't happen, not sure if they would do that.
And the fact of Comstar allowing intel to flow was not about post Terra fall, but before that. Something like being the last coms of a world before the clans land sort of thing. We know the canon story had Comstar faking all transmissions, so the houses didn't know what was going on. Once this stops, intel is flowing far better then when Comstar stopped it all. I would also think that putting in the black boxes instead of ignoring them like canon did, would give them some more intel then they had in canon.
As for Comstar, they would be focused on Terra. This may well force them to work with the houses, as it is not known if Comstar could retake Terra alone. They may well bleed themselves dry trying to prevent the fall of it, and not have the reserves needed for a full counter offensive.
Either way, they may have to recall all the forces from the HPG network guard positions, if they haven't already.
I would suspect Comstar would work with the houses only so much as to have them and the clans bleed each other out, but do it less obviously then Walterly was.
But that does mean asking if Focht would do so, or possibly leave Comstar to return to the LC?
If he heads to the LC, how much of the Comguard would follow him, even if he didn't ask them to?
This may or may not lead to the Vipers/Falcons having more problems then before.
The Bears may well work to expand their territories, even if they don't push hard for Terra. The more territory they have, the more access to resources they would have. If they do push hard for Terra and fail, would they set up their dominion closer to Terra, instead of in the FRR? The Lyons Thumb does come to mind, especially since they would be going thru there to get to Terra. As canon stopped them from getting that far, they settled in the FRR.
There is some issues with the Way concept. As the clans were invading the IS to retake the TH/SL, wouldn't that mean they would have to move to the IS in order to run it properly? They could not try and hold it and their home world holdings. So moving to the IS, should be the next step after forming the SL. The Bears could well say 'unlike the other clans, we knew we would triumph. So we brought our people with us.'
This is yet another possible push to insult the other clans that are involved in the invasion. It would be even more embarrassing if the Bears make it to Terra to bid against the wolves, while the others are stuck chewing their way and not even without a couple of jumps.
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Karagin
09/08/22 10:43 AM
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The Dragoons info would be there, but it's going to be dated, and again, it's still going to have the Inner Sphere jumping around, thinking every attack will have a warship. A similar take on this was every tank the American units encountered in Europe for a hot minute was reported as a Tiger tank; while it's true, they did run into those, not in the numbers the reports claimed. The same thing would be happening here.
Oh, they (ComStar) will be working with the Houses, but they would not be seen as a faithful ally, more of one of the moment. Their primary focus would be to defend Terra and keep the Clans off it. If that means maneuvering the Houses to take the brunt of the fighting, then that's what they will do. At this point, I would say the only thing defending most HPGs are small infantry units and or security teams of ROM agents. All mechs and vehicles are already committed to the worlds in the path of the Clans main drive on Terra.
IF Waterly is dead, who is running ComStar? Focht will not be doing this; that game has already burned him, and so is Mori or another.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/08/22 12:08 PM
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The question of who runs the first circuit after Walterly is one that need to be answered. We know she will be killed at one point, so who will take over? Mori is the only other person on the first circuit I know of, so couldn't being to say who else might take over.
The timing of when it happens may well have more major effects then what happened in canon. The next person could well be worse. It could daisy chain into the CC going from helping to attacking the FC, as a 'deal' could be done between the replacement and Sunny. Or Sunny might think they are too weak to do anything against him. It could well be the replacement secretly made a deal to return some worlds to the CC in return for some help with defending Sol. Hell, Walterly could make that deal depending on when she dies.
As Comstar had hired periphery pirates to be mercs, would they expand that concept and try to get them to defend Terra, though probably serving on worlds in the path then on Terra itself? I could see this blowing up in their faces, causing more damage to the IS then the clans. Maybe them sacking the worlds instead of defending them. The chaos would allow the clans to take them will less effort then normal.
Another scenario would be for the pirates to just run when engaged. This would demoralize other defenders, and give the pirates more equipment to use in their 'jobs'. Having a portion of your forces leave really screws up your defensive plans...
Maybe using the Republic of the Sphere name as the new SL might work. It would not be the crap of the canon story, especially since the Republic would not be formed around Terra. That is if the houses get their crap together and form a coalition to deal with the clans.
As a side note, do you think the clans would have an extreme hatred for the periphery realms, especially the TC? It was their war that helped cause the fall of the SL, as well as their nasty tactics that hurt the SLDF enough to even set up the Amaris strike on the Camerons?
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ghostrider
09/10/22 11:09 AM
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There are a few things that relate to the invasion, but isn't pure military in scope that could use some answers.
The idea of having space stations being built comes to mind. Yes, they are primarily military in scope for the clans, but not something for offensive maneuvers. Things like how many would be built?
Would they increase the numbers as the years roll on?
It is also something to figure out how the clans will try to govern the planets they took when Comstar is not doing it any more. I know each clan will rule differently, but the idea of almost constant unrest on some worlds, at least for a while, would have some effects on their push into the IS.
Would they take control of all factories, including normal civillian ones, and shift them over to weapon production? This would include things like clothing makers and such.
I could see a shift in farming items being changed over to things the clans prefer as well.
As for combat, would the clans decide the target IS jumpships, as a means to lock the IS onto worlds, since commercial jumpships would be considered a waste of resources to them? I don't really see there being many jumpships used by the clans for purposes of just allowing the masses movement through out the clan cluster. Some will be required, such as scientists and merchants, but I don't see sight seeing tours happening.
It does lead to the question of if the clans would produce more warships, to patrol their systems in the IS? I would think so, as they will start doing in the IS, the same thing they do in the cluster. There will be trials of possession called for. With the increased number of worlds they control, they will need to have the forces on hand to answer those challenges.
Which also calls for once Terra is taken, would that free up the other clans to be able to head into the IS, and start challenging for worlds as well as invaded non clan worlds?
My understanding is the 4 initial was only for the purpose of seeing who becomes the Ilclan. Once that is over, the restrictions would/should drop, so all can now move to secure territory in the IS.
This could well lead to the initial clans having to stop taking worlds, in order to deal with those coming in. The chaos that could result from the other clans coming in, might well lead to the smaller nations as each would be dotted around the areas, with concentrations being of a smaller size.
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Karagin
09/10/22 04:16 PM
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That would depend on how badly they see things. If they see total war footing as needed, then they might just do that, but again, is the population of Terra and the Sol System going to be fully supportive of ComStar? I doubt they will be. They know that no matter what, the Clans are coming. They also know. Regardless of how much ComStar tries to suppress the information, the word is still going to get around that the House Lords hate ComStar and aren't going to be helping them out to defend the planet. If anyone on Terra opens their eyes, they can see that ComSar is not the good guys.
The planetary nobles are going to look out for themselves first and foremost. Again, as we discussed above, they will be more about saving their butts than everything else.
I could see the other Homeworld Clans trying to challenge for worlds the Invasion Clans have. That would make some sense, as would the silly Ice Hellion's little tantrum attack, which could be a sign that the other Clans in the Homeworlds feel they are left out and forgotten, which could lead to an early War of Reaving and a new issue for Ulric and the ilClan to deal with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/10/22 04:53 PM
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The question of if/when Phelan leaves needs an answer. This could well assist the FC at least on where the Falcons/Vipers will strike next and approximately when, given them a chance to do some real damage to those clans. It is possible, the could get some intel to the DC to deal with the Jaguars/Cats as well.
Any clan tech that he is able to bring, would help the IS slow, and possibly stop any expansion of the clans after they take the Sol system.
Perhaps causing the clans to focus on keeping what they took, instead of trying to expand around Terra.
Yes, they would focus on taking a jump or two worlds around Terra for some breathing room, but might be required to focus on their supply lines for a while.
Hmmm. Phelan knows that Hanse is not happy with Comstar, so that could play a role in the fall of Terra. As the FC would oppose the FWL and CC from sending forces thru their territory to help Comstar, that could well help if they do have to bid for the attack. It would also allow them to focus more on Comstar and not worry about the FWL or CC bringing in forces.
It sounds odd, but with this, they wouldn't have to focus as much on the jump points or even potential pirate points, and bring more forces directly to bear on Terra's defenders. The fighters that would do it, could well help tip the fight.
The question that comes up is if the clans would send a challenge to Comstar for the Sol system over the HPG so all houses could see what is up. The broadcast would well include saying only the worlds within a jump or two would be taken, then the clan invasion would be over with. Depending on how it is worded, this might be enough to get the FC and DC to focus more on the flankers, and leave Sol and the others alone.
I just don't know if the leaders would trust the clans claim to stopping the invasion. It would have to be put in there that there could still be trials called for other worlds. This would slow down any more invasions of worlds, giving the IS time to set up the other worlds, as well as take back some lost.
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ghostrider
09/20/22 12:48 PM
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Thinking about it a little more, it may well be better if Phelan does not leave the clans in this what if.
Him leaving is something that could help the IS deal with the clans more effectively. As the clans are taking Terra in this what if, the only thing that is really necessary is slowing down the flanks so they are not part of the invasion.
From the sounds of it, the clans will not be kicked out of Terra in the near future, so there is some room for the IS to secure the borders some, as well as catch up with researching the clan tech.
I do wonder if the clans that didn't reach Terra would decide it is better to rule in the home worlds, then to serve in the IS. They will challenge often, but in the end, they will forever be known as losing the race. At least in the home worlds, they could 'rewrite' the history, as they would be the ones issuing any challenges to anything being written about their loss.
This would also push the Wolves to protect their corridor as well as Terra, alone.
It is a political move, but one they will definitely use to suggest the Wolves, and to a lesser extent, the wardens, as too weak to be allowed to threaten the clans, as they will show they can not hold onto what they got. This may well start up another clan civil war, or at least repeated attempts to absorb the others into different clans.
This may be better for a what if, having the IS kick the clans out of the IS before wave 4 or so.
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