Karagin
07/02/02 09:52 AM
63.173.170.14
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If so, would they be worth using or would they be more of a stop gap weapon system?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Khan_Robinette
07/02/02 10:51 AM
216.24.92.31
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Range would probably shorten..damage might be comparable to that of a Clan Er type laser.
Maybe for example:
IS Heavy Large LAser
Tons: 5
Crits: 3
Heat: 14
Damage: 11 (Or make it 12 if you want a head killer)
Min: 0
Short: 1-3 (1-4)
Medium: 4-6 (5-7)
Long: 7-9 (8-12)
+1 to hit because of the distortion etc etc. Maybe the ranges in parenthesis would be bette, knocks just enough off of the Large laser to make it a medium range weapon with a bite.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Nightmare
07/02/02 11:02 AM
194.251.240.105
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Well, they`re no worse to hit with than MRMs, so why not? Only problem is the heat, you won`t find many of them on a IS mech if they ever copy them. Imagine a Grasshopper with Heavy Lasers  That`s HOT!
I`d say only as replacements for ordinary Lasers if the machine switches to DHS too.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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PeterSmith
07/02/02 07:10 PM
4.17.223.29
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I think it would depend on the development of X-Pulse. By this, I mean the L2 version of them. My guess would be a House would either develop one or the other, but not both.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Greyslayer
07/02/02 10:43 PM
63.12.145.250
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I'd find a great difficulty in utilising this tech as it has three problems the IS cannot get as much out of as the clans.
1) +1 to gunnery. IS pilots are just less likely to be as good as their clan counterparts so this increase is a bad option.
2) Increased heat. IS mechs have a serious problem with heat due in effect to their less than clan-efficient critical slots since double heat sinks take three crits and other tonnage saving items are in general twice as bulky as clan equipment.
3) Decreased range. There is little benefit of having something with a decreased range that doesn't give some gunnery advantage as the medium pulse lasers do for IS pilots.
4) Increased Criticals. This was touched on earlier with increased heat. Most mechs struggle with critical placements when extra heat sinks are needed above engine capacity. Combine this with other equipment such as Endo-steel and Ferro Fibrous you would see many good reasons not to have the above equipment.
Ways in which they could incorporate the technology-
The research could leed to changes in standard laser circuitry allowing 'modes' (similar to how the ATM has different ammo types). The laser is bulky like the Heavy version but the pilot can switch between certain focus types to get the best out of their lasers. An example could be a 2 ton - 3 crit Medium Laser that can fire like a IS Heavy Medium, an IS ER Medium or a Standard IS Medium beams on declaration.
Incorporate the technology into Pulse lasers. Thus increasing the crits and heat output while giving away most of the advatage of the pulse (only gets a -1) at a increase in damage. Range would stay constant in this instance. Heavy Pulse.
Just a few thoughts
Greyslayer
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PeterSmith
07/03/02 12:03 AM
4.17.223.29
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"Decreased range."
Why would they have decreased range? As it stands, Heavy Lasers have the same range profile as their Inner Sphere Standard Laser counterparts, with twice the damage. With all these comparasions to IS lasers, were Heavy Lasers developed from ER technology, or were they based directly on the standard Laser (be it from Brian's Caches or slavage from IS fights)?
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/03/02 12:04 AM
63.173.170.174
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Interesting twist, say House Davion does the up the X-Pulse and Laio the Heavy Lasers...would this be something could happen or would they all work to make only one type?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/03/02 12:07 AM
63.173.170.174
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Okay...
Point 1 is no different then the MRMs being used by the Combine. So why are they using them if the to hit roll is effected by their lack of guidence units?
Point 2 Heat is something the IS is accustom to dealing with, and with DHS that is not a major issue any more.
Point 3 The range is about were current IS weapons are so I don't see that much a problem here, IMHO.
Point 4 I can agree with you on but again it could be over come by better design thinking by the enigneers and such.
Your other idea is an interesting one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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PeterSmith
07/03/02 12:46 AM
4.17.223.29
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Mind you, this is just discussion on my part. Randall has already said we won't be seeing new technology for a long time. But it's still fun to discuss it.
I would think that Kurita would develop the heavy-class lasers. Their use of PPCs shows a preference for hard-hitting energy weapons. And I think that Marik would develop the X-Pulse technology, as they did the ER Medium and ER Small lasers first.
Distribution for the X-Pulse would probably be wide-spread, with the FWL's weapon market practices. The Heavy-class would probably be distributed along alliance lines, with general distribution probably 1-5 years later (depending on battlefield salvage and black bag operations).
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/03/02 02:08 AM
63.173.170.146
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I agree Kurtia would be one of the forerunners, but I was just tossing out an example to get the point over.
Following your example, then all would have the X-Pulse and Kurtia/Com Guard/SLDF units would have the IS Heavy Lasers...with the others scrabbling to get them some how.
Would these two "wonder weapons" (to borrow a pharse from a book I am currently reading) change the balance of power or would they cancel each other out?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
07/03/02 04:32 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>As it stands, Heavy Lasers have the same range profile as their Inner Sphere Standard Laser counterparts, with twice the damage.<<<
Heavy Lasers were clearly not developed from their counterparts among Inner Sphere Standard Lasers. The idea that the Clans would take such a massive leap backward in their quest for new technology is...a...remarkable...one.
No, Heavy Lasers clearly have massively shortened range, increased heat, increased space requirements, and reduced accuracy (But not tonnage? Hm.) for mildly increased power, as they were decidedly developed from something the Clans already had (and did not have to fish in Brian Caches for:) ER Lasers.
Personally, I'm surprised the Clans have never considered redeveloping standard lasers. Ah, but doing that would obviously unearth the fact that FASA didn't build any consistency into the Clan techbase. 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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novakitty
07/03/02 11:23 AM
209.242.100.230
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The clans had standard lasers, they simply found them obsolete. It was not "lost", just a rarely accessed section of their weapon databases.
meow
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NathanKell
07/03/02 12:25 PM
24.44.238.62
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Well, technically, the Clans *do* have an IS Large Laser....
It's called the ER Medium Laser. 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
PeterSmith
07/03/02 05:22 PM
4.17.223.29
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"Would these two "wonder weapons" ... change the balance of power or would they cancel each other out?"
Probably cancel each other out. Heavy Lasers have not given the Crusader Clans a serious advantage over the Warden Clans, so I don't see either system giving one House a massive advantage.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/03/02 06:13 PM
63.173.170.139
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Seeing how they would cancel each other out, would the Houses scramble to get them or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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MacLeod
07/03/02 06:21 PM
65.95.255.57
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I kind of doubt it. If the IS made heavy lasers, they would be terribly ranged, with psychotic heat levels, and the targeting penalty would probably be 2 instead of 1. They would be grossly inefficient. I'd just use a Gauss rifle and a couple of medium pulse lasers.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Karagin
07/03/02 06:28 PM
63.173.170.139
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I don't know given how close the Heavy Lasers are to the Standard IS Lasers I would think they would not be that bad.
While the +1 or +2 to the to hit roll would be a big draw back, it would be no different then the draw backs of the MRMs or the DFMs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
07/03/02 06:54 PM
63.12.145.215
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They had standard and star league era mechs still in their armies apparently before the invasion of the IS so I do doubt the need to 'find' standard lasers (also remember they completely refitted the Wolf's Dragoons with 3025 tech which indicates a large stockpile of that type of equipment).
The increased heat and damage could be from research conducted into ER lasers. Changing the focus (ie dropping the range) using larger capacitors and so on (accounting for the entra criticals) gave the difference between the ER and Heavy lasers. The fact the clan Heavy Lasers had the same ranges as a standard laser could in fact be because of their superior materials and research into the field. Who knows they could've just been approximately designed to be 2/3 the range of their ER counterparts. If that was the case the IS weapons could closely resemble the ranges of 2/3 the IS ER lasers. There is not enough information in this instance to say for sure (though it still doesn't mean we cannot discuss the merits of either ideals on it).
Greyslayer
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Bob_Richter
07/04/02 01:47 AM
4.35.174.250
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And you would, I suppose, base a new weapon for your 21st Century army on an eight-ton brass cannon off an old sailing Frigate?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
07/04/02 01:53 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I would think that Kurita would develop the heavy-class lasers. Their use of PPCs shows a preference for hard-hitting energy weapons.<<<
Hard-hitting energy weapons, or Particle Projection Cannons particularly? I'd say PPCs, especially considering that Large Lasers (which are ALSO hard-hitting energy weapons) are actually quite rare in the DCMS's 'Mech roster.
Personally, I'd rather see an HPPC developed by the DCMS, matching the range/damage/heat profile of the Clan ER PPC but a few tons heavier and a little more space-consuming.
And, yes, I want to see level 2 X-Pulses and LACs...and maybe E(X?)LRMs, and various of the less weird and game-perverting L3 gadgets.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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novakitty
07/04/02 03:37 AM
209.242.100.230
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If you have the technology to reduce the weight of the base components by 50% and almost reduce the volume as much, yes.
IS regular lasers were still their most effective weapons (especially mediums), with clan technology, they could, effectively, mount two classic style lasers out of lighter materials and in only slightly more space than one.
meow
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Bob_Richter
07/04/02 04:44 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>If you have the technology to reduce the weight of the base components by 50% and almost reduce the volume as much, yes. <<<
No, you base it off a weapon that already incorporates those improvements. Anything else would be an utter waste of time.
And, ah, for the record, a heavy laser is not two half-weight IS lasers mounted side-by-side, it's a single laser with 100% more energy output.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Edited by Bob_Richter (07/04/02 04:45 AM)
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TenakaFurey
07/06/02 02:38 PM
195.92.194.14
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Actually - IIRC - the Heavy Lasers are based on the standard alsers. Didn't they just use a wider 'lens'?
EJL
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NathanKell
07/09/02 10:33 PM
24.44.238.62
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But, what, 14x the mass?
Guess which I'd pick! 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Durango
07/10/02 01:28 PM
65.212.106.131
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"And you would, I suppose, base a new weapon for your 21st Century army on an eight-ton brass cannon off an old sailing Frigate? "
Depends...had we, in the 20th century, fallen so far behind in our technology that we have resorted to using balistas? In that case, yes...
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Bob_Richter
07/10/02 10:22 PM
4.35.174.250
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Your extension of my analogy makes its own odd kind of sense, but clearly doesn't apply.
Clantech clearly has the classic inner sphere lasers beat six ways to sunday.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Durango
07/11/02 05:34 PM
65.212.106.131
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Yes, you're right of course.
I just felt like using the analogy. It seemed to make sense, at the time.
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Karagin
11/26/05 01:15 AM
24.243.178.223
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Return
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NileIngrams
11/26/05 05:20 AM
60.228.190.84
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The Clans do have systems equivalent to the old InnerSphere Energy Weapons.... but you would not find them on any front line equipment. Though they do prefer the newer technology, they still use them for Solhama and FreeBorn Units. It is something that was mentioned briefly in the 3050 TR when it first came out - it is a pity it wasn't carried over completely, but in essence it would have been severely unbalancing. I believe the weapons are Cheaper and Lighter than the Inner Sphere Equivalents, but keep the range and heat of the Inner Sphere Models. (I remember that for any weapons that weigh over a tonne subtracted a tonne off the total weight and they lost a critical as well, but I am unsure as to how weapons that weighed a tonne or less were treated - halved in weight I think....)
FASA obviously then tested these new Clan Equivalents and found them to be severely unbalancing and then silently dropped
any further mention of it. Just thinking of a Clan version of the HBK-4P with twice the medium lasers and double heatsinks....
at least with units like the Phantom with it's ER-Small Laser version you at least could at least try to stay out of it's maximum 6 range. Strangely they also did the same thing with the Clan equivalents for Autocannons, and it too was also dropped.
As for the Dragoons, I am sure they had ample of the standard energy weapons stored in their Brian Caches - I think
they would have been given to them at a bargain basement cost just to get them out the doors!
NileIngrams NI! - The Killer of Threads!
In the time before the return of the heirs of Kerensky,
when the Successor Lords had tired of bathing worlds in Nuclear Madness,
there was an age of High Adventure!
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Toontje
11/26/05 05:24 AM
84.24.165.226
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The clans don't relly have stockpiles of oldtech; it's better, SL tech. Mentioned when the wolfs dragoons came to town, the unequaled equipment, where the clans obviously thought it would have been SL or better tech that was the norm in the IS.
Still have to face a 2nd line star equiped with SL era 'mechs.
Rather to blow up, then.
Edited by Toontje (11/26/05 05:31 AM)
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