Cray
09/28/01 11:32 PM
12.78.130.19
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(Just some speculation for the power gamers and munchkins out there, plus a few questions...)
"And when I say the boy has his own money, I mean the boy has his own money!" --Coming to America
Indeed. I came across the Forbes list of the 400 richest people on Earth for 2001 today. They're rich. I mean, filthy rich doesn't even begin to describe how wealthy they are. Billy "The Man" Gates is still #1 at $55 billion, down (IIRC) $40 billion from his high point a few years ago. I want to be rich enough to lose $40 billion and still be filthy rich.
Encountering Forbes' list came shortly after bumping into a few other stray factoids.
1) I was perusing the CIA World Factbook for info on East European nations and noted even fairly large nations like Romania (pop 22 million) have annual government budgets in the low billions ($11 billion for Romania).
2) Another factoid was that California's GNP (well not gross National product, but you know what I mean) had just slightly surpassed France's GNP of a hair over $1 trillion.
3) A sad comment sparked by the Sept. 11 tragedy got me looking at at the home pages of several major corporations (Walmart, GM, GE) and poking through their investor relation section for annual reports. The comment was from the new head of GE, Jeff Immelt:
"My second day as chairman, a plane I lease, flying with engines I built, crashed into a building that I insure, and it was covered with a network I own."
Anyway, annual gross revenues were $191, $186 and $126 billion for Walmart, GM, and GE, respectively (give or take a few billion, I didn't write the numbers down).
4) Walmart's gross revenue was "only" $36 billion in 1991. 5-fold revenue growth in 9 years...
5) NASA's budget is about $13 billion a year.
This odd mix of data crystallized several conclusions in my mind:
1) Major real world corporations can individually be worth more as much as medium-sized nations.
2) Major real world corporations can individually be worth a significant fraction of a large nation's economy. About 15-20% of France's, in the case of the aforementioned trio.
3) The annual budgets of many nations are within the range of a large subsidiary of these major corporations. Idea: governments run as wholly-owned, for-profit subsidiaries of a major corporation. Just turn over social services to HR, put the military under security, and hand over justice to accounting's investigative arm. Aim for 3-5% profits off taxes. To get the "contract" to run the government without a guerilla war, bribe the voters with half their average annual income ($500-$1000 per voter in many East European and Third World nations, a one-time capital investment of a few billion dollars.)
4) Running your own space program can be done out your net revenues if you skip on some of the gubmint inefficiencies of national space program.
5) This level of wealth can and has been built in the lifetime of a normal human (see: Walmart and Bill Gates). GE and GM are just on either side of 100 years old - one long life time (see: Strom Thurmond) or two average lifetimes.
6) This level of wealth can be largely controlled by a single person (see: Bill Gates). Specifically, someone with the wealth of Bill Gates could easily not only be the largest shareholder of a big corp, but also the majority shareholder.
7) The Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming is obviously missing a chapter: Big Business and How You Can Rule The World From A Boardroom.
8) I have really been setting my goals too low for my super filthy rich characters.
9) Everybody who's ever tried to set up a personal empire in the Periphery has been wasting their time. Give me a better mouse trap to market in the FWL, LC, or FS (cheap fusion engines, frex) and in 5 decades I can be a Lord God Robber Baron Fusion Megacorp Mogul with 20 worlds effectively at my beck and call. Marian Hegemony, eat your heart out.
Some RPG questions:
1) Anyone care to speculate on how wealthy super-wealthy people will be in a century's time? And/or in FTL interstellar campaigns with dozens of settled worlds?
2) How the heck do you use that amount of wealth? Obviously gross revenues are not immediately usuable (damn employees never want to work for free), but employers of tens and hundreds of thousands of employees can make governments dance to their tune.
3) What do you use that wealth for? At those levels of wealth, the government tends to discourage frivolous things like 1200ft tall solid gold phallic statues ("You'll wreck the economy, you'll ruin the gold market," blah blah blah), so you have to be fairly serious.
Food for thought.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
09/29/01 09:21 PM
12.78.130.134
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"In the futuristic feudal houses I'd guess that the average worker doesn't have much to say even if they are hundreds of thousands of them."
Actually, they very often do. It varies from planet to planet, but the FWL, FS, and LC each often have quite a range of democracies and civil rights. Though I know the FS is hot about not interfering with local planetary societies, so it also has quite a range of tyrannies and oppression.
"Well ...... I guess the fact that rich people want to get richer doesn't change over a couple of thousands of years, so ........ hireing mercenaries to disturb the peace of the rivaling houses and bribes constitutes a great deal of the average house expenses."
Do you play Shadowrun? :) Military/violent action against rivals is probably frowned on in most jurisdictions, unless it's across the border in times of war. It's certainly a good way to lose everything when you go to trial for murder.
But...with Bill Gates-like wealth, or GM-like wealth, multiplied across however many worlds you have that wealth on (say 20)...
Net revenues equal to $60 billion per annum, conservatively converted to 12 billion C-bills, can buy an army. Got a grudge against the Clans for taking your home world, maybe? Don't want the Clans stealing your current fief?
Want to build a factory (or 12, or 120) that can change a world? Something once lostech? Water filtration spare parts, maybe, or commercial fusion engines by the thousands? 31st Century computers for classrooms could have virtual teachers on them (read Diamond Age recently?) - fix that pesky teacher shortage and, in a few years, that shortage of trained techs to fix whatever high tech gizmos that have been lacking trained maintenance. You could probably even turn profits on these acts of "charity."
Wealth like that grants the power to change the BT setting, held back only by vested interests. It's not tax money beholden to taxpayers and the government.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
10/01/01 12:14 AM
132.234.250.13
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I *STRENOUSLY OBJECT* to the term Munchkin. We prefer 'Vertically Challenged'. ;) (In real life, I am 5'10").
"1) Anyone care to speculate on how wealthy super-wealthy people will be in a century's time? And/or in FTL interstellar campaigns with dozens of settled worlds?"
I think in MW3 it said 1 C-Bill was worth about $5 US. I could be talking from my rectum, but I fuzzily remember it being said somewhere.
Anyway, they would have access to cash with so man '0's behind the first number that they would have to invent new numbers to count them. Gajillions, perhaps?
"2) How the heck do you use that amount of wealth? Obviously gross revenues are not immediately usuable (damn employees never want to work for free), but employers of tens and hundreds of thousands of employees can make governments dance to their tune."
I would start buy buying Wolf's Dragoons or some other large outfit. Not *HIRE*, *BUY* outright. Then I'd head over to the FWL and talk turkey about buying one of those new Impavidos. Ohhh, yeah, baby. Think of the fun we could have with one of those.....
And then I'd but a star system and have a Moon sculpted into my image, and then, andthen, and then....
"
"The man who opens his mouth in the presence of a woman does so only to change feet"
-Me.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
10/19/01 06:46 AM
204.245.128.108
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>The majorly wealthy people in BTech are the Nobles...
Since when? I know a lot of wealthy people basically buy titles after "making it," but I got the impression many nobles tend to be land owners. FedSun nobles even refer to landless nobles who get their wealth from corporations as "Lyran Lords" in a not kindly manner.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
10/19/01 01:15 PM
204.245.128.108
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>Don't forget that we're working with a Neo-Feudal model
Which often stops below the interstellar government level. Quite a few planets - particularly in the FedSuns and Lyran Commonwealth - are democracies. Like Australia and Britain, their acknowledged head of state is an aristocrat, but there's not a particular restriction against non-nobles owning land.
In fact, the old Davion Sourcebook makes a point of arguing against (I think the term is used exactly) neo-feudalism.
>And anyone who's not a noble(landowner) has a LOT of trouble competeing, since they have neither land, nor any other real resources
That is incorrect. Many worlds (classic examples are the "Golden Five" of the Federated Suns and, let us never forget, the FS planet Macintosh owned by the Apple computer corporation) have huge middle classes with plenty of land, schooling, and resources to spawn the next merchant "prince."
Re-read the Atlases in the back of the five House sourcebooks, or the social sections of those books. The Inner Sphere is not a land (so to speak) of dumb serfs and rich overlords. That happens, but not on the more populous worlds.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
10/19/01 04:40 PM
134.121.149.97
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>>>That is incorrect. Many worlds (classic examples are the "Golden Five" of the Federated Suns and, let us never forget, the FS planet Macintosh owned by the Apple computer corporation) have huge middle classes with plenty of land, schooling, and resources to spawn the next merchant "prince."<<<
But he'd have a lot of trouble competing with a Prince (who can draw on the resources of an entire state, including his if he's part of the state) or even a Duke (whose resources are absolutely massive)
Most major corporations probably have nobles as controlling shareholders.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
10/19/01 04:51 PM
12.78.130.211
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>But he'd have a lot of trouble competing with a Prince (who can draw on the resources of an entire state, including his if he's part of the state) or even a Duke (whose resources are absolutely massive)
Oh, sure, I was just trying to point out that things weren't as bleak and medieval as Psychopompous was painting them. The nobles effectively just individuals who inherited money and have sources of income a "commoner" cannot have but can match.
And I betcha in the FWL, LC/LA, and FS nobles would get in hot water for using too much tax money to fund their business ventures and/or failures.
>Most major corporations probably have nobles as controlling shareholders
That's a chicken-and-the-egg situation. Which came first: the noble or the corporation that makes the shareholder rich enough to buy a title?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
10/19/01 05:05 PM
134.121.149.97
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>>>That's a chicken-and-the-egg situation. Which came first: the noble or the corporation that makes the shareholder rich enough to buy a
title?<<<
In a purely feudal system, noble status is ABSOLUTELY INDEPENDENT of personal wealth. (a commoner can, in theory, be richer than a king. Of course, far before this would happen, the king would tax the bejeezus out of HIM, personally, and none of the other nobles, nor even the less-wealthy commoners, would strenuously object. Who in the US would have a problem if there were a 90% net worth tax levied against persons with a networth greater than $10 billion? ) This may not be true in particular realms (Noble status in some might be awarded based on personal wealth, for instance.)
>>>And I betcha in the FWL, LC/LA, and FS nobles would get in hot water for using too much tax money to fund their business ventures and/or failures.<<<
Depends on the planet. Even in these pseudo-democratic states, the nobility is not accountable to the common people. (The First Prince, for instance, may be bound by a constitution, but he is not subject to election or even impeachment.)
>>>
Oh, sure, I was just trying to point out that things weren't as bleak and medieval as Psychopompous was painting them.<<<
True, modern neo-feudalism is a long way from pure, though the Draconis Combine comes close.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
10/19/01 05:20 PM
12.78.130.211
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>In a purely feudal system, noble status is ABSOLUTELY INDEPENDENT of personal wealth.
Dude, I know. But BT isn't purely feudal. I'd bet good money it's easy for wealthy commoners to buy titles either with straight up cash or being wealthy enough for a noble to consider the merchant worthy of marrying into the noble family.
>Depends on the planet
Exactly.
Mike Miller, MatE
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
10/19/01 05:30 PM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Dude, I know. But BT isn't purely feudal.<<<
It's a lot closer than, say, 20th Century Britain, which is still pretty stingy about handing out titles much above Knight.
>>>I'd bet good money it's easy for wealthy commoners to buy titles either with straight up cash or
being wealthy enough for a noble to consider the merchant worthy of marrying into the noble family.<<<
And you'd lose that money. The only way to "buy" a title would be to bribe the person in control of titles. That would be the First Prince(FedSuns)/Archon(LyrCom/LyrAll)/Captain-General(FWL)/Coordinator(DC)/Elected Prince(FRR)/Chancellor(CC)
(in order of descending importance, of course!)
Only this person has the capability of "creating" someone a noble, and it's damnably difficult to bribe someone with their own property.
Generally, a noble should NEVER consider a commoner worthy of marriage. It's not about money, it's about prestige. Even if this did happen, the act of marriage does not create someone a noble. It makes him/her a noble CONSORT, which elevates him/her above the ranks of common people, to be sure, but does not make him/her a noble (unless he/she is in his/her own right.)
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
10/19/01 09:27 PM
12.78.130.205
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>Generally, a noble should NEVER consider a commoner worthy of marriage. It's not about money, it's about prestige.
Often, the two are linked. A hard-on-their-luck noble family, a wealthy merchant to revive the noble family's finances - a match made in heaven! I especially the suspect knights and barons to be susceptible to hooking up with commoners.
>Only this person has the capability of "creating" someone a noble, and it's damnably difficult to bribe someone with their own property
Their own property? There's a great deal of property they don't own, especially the FWL/FS/LC big chiefs. There's plenty they can be bribed with...but bribing is so...crude.
Those big chiefs also pick up a lot of non-monetary debts. A merchant "prince" that quiets labor riots (perhaps with raises, perhaps with corporate bully boys to keep the chief's image clean) on a key world is due something - a title on said world is a good payment. Or maybe a duke marrying off his daughter to a quadrillionaire is owed a favor from the local big chief for past deeds - making the quadrillionaire a noble before marriage would avoid all that embarassing Talk at the country club that the duke's daughter married a commoner. Then there's things like where a wealthy person squeezes elections to get a pro-House Lord candidate into some key office.
There are so many, many ways to get a decent title out of a House Lord. Some of them are bribes, some of them payments for past debts, some of them are blackmail, some of them are services rendered.
Mike Miller, MatE
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
10/19/01 11:29 PM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Often, the two are linked.<<<
In a modern capitalist/industrialist democracy, yes.
Not in a theoretical neo-feudal autocracy.
Not necessarily, at least.
Historically, a noble's prestige is ALWAYS greater than a commoner's regardless of the commoner's money. A noble is a Peer of The Realm, they're really important people. No matter how much a capitalist makes, he's NOT a Peer of The Realm, and is thus vastly inferior to any true noble's station.
>>>A hard-on-their-luck noble family, a wealthy merchant to revive the noble family's finances - a match made in heaven!<<<
Only in the mind of a modern capitalist/industrialist democrat with no real idea about nobility and its ways.
>>>I especially the suspect knights and barons to be susceptible to hooking up with commoners.<<<
Knights do it all the time, but knights are in that half-state between nobility and commoners. They're the lowest form of nobility, and not a hereditary nobility at that. Their prestige is not noticeably better than an obscenely wealthy merchant's.
A Baron can always marry into a wealthier noble family if he really needs to get money that way (of course, he could just levy a tax on all of the wealthy merchants in his district too.)
>>>Their own property? There's a great deal of property they don't own, especially the FWL/FS/LC big chiefs. <<<
Yes, OUTSIDE the FWL/FS/LC. Anything they want WITHIN those realms, however, is theirs for the asking.
>>>A merchant "prince" that quiets labor riots (perhaps with raises, perhaps with
corporate bully boys to keep the chief's image clean) on a key world is due something - a title on said world is a good payment. <<<
This is not, however, "buying" a title: The money was not the important part, nor was any money exchanged. He might get an knighthood this way.
>>>Or maybe a duke marrying off his daughter to a quadrillionaire is owed a favor from the local big chief for past deeds - making the quadrillionaire a noble before marriage would avoid all that embarassing Talk at the country club that the duke's daughter married a commoner. <<<
A Duke would be as conscious of the loss of prestige involved as anyone else. Rather than burning a powerful favor with a high muckety-muck to promote some slob from the corporate board room, he would find a noble who was ALSO a quadrillonare.
>>>Then there's things like where a wealthy person squeezes elections to get a pro-House Lord candidate into some key office.<<<
I suppose, but then again, that's not BUYING a title, exactly. Service to the realm. Might get himself knighted.
>>>There are so many, many ways to get a decent title out of a House Lord.<<<
not a DECENT title. To get a duchy, you'd pretty much have to inherit it (since the sucessor states are not really expanding, the number of duchys is pretty well fixed.)
To get a Barony, you'd have to get knighted, and then have need to get knighted again. (they can't knight you again, so they'd make you a baronet....then a baron....etc.)
A knighthood's really the best you can get without pulling some REALLY extraordinary measures.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
10/19/01 11:44 PM
134.121.149.97
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>>>9) Everybody who's ever tried to set up a personal empire in the Periphery has been wasting their time. Give me a better mouse trap to market in the FWL, LC, or FS (cheap fusion engines, frex) and in 5 decades I can be a Lord God Robber Baron Fusion Megacorp Mogul with 20 worlds effectively at my beck and call. Marian Hegemony, eat your heart out.<<<
Not so. Among all the success stories (re: Gates, who had a WORSE mousetrap, and marketed it better.) are any number of non-sucess stories. Inventors get bought out by the established power structure all the time. Gates does it himself (the buying, stealing, and swindling, not the inventing.) The saying goes this way: You *CAN'T* be the next Bill Gates: Bill Gates won't let you!
In order to build Gates's kind of wealth you have to:
1) Find a NEW market to exploit*. (PCs and PC software, in Gates's case)
2) Team up with an existing semi-monopoly that doesn't take the market seriously. (IBM, in Gates's case)
and
3) make every effort to buy out or brutally squash everyone else in that market, holding back its development by decades.
*a better mousetrap is moving in on an old market. The current mousetrap producers don't want you doing that.
Gatesism isn't really very possible in the Battletech universe, unless you can come up with some technology like the PC whose value will be massively underestimated by all major wealthholders. Battletech's major corporations have all been in existence for CENTURIES, they're not practically brand-spanking new like IBM was. They're also the survivors. Muscleing in to their territory isn't happening, unless you have a Battlemech army to back it up.
On the other hand, if you're going to start up a company to produce those "gyroless" 'Mech stabilizers, I'll gladly invest my 500 C-Bills. :)
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
10/20/01 09:27 AM
12.78.180.22
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>Gatesism isn't really very possible in the Battletech universe, unless you can come up with some technology like the PC whose value will be massively underestimated by all major wealthholders.
Got one, and I'm sure the initial release of the Star League Memory Core revived all sorts of forgotten tech possibilities. While everyone else is trying to build ER PPCs and XL engines, the bigger market might be in simsense or life-like animatronic sex toys.
An empire built on porn...muahahahahaahahahah!!!!
Ahem. Anyway, don't forget the irregular nature of interstellar markets in the Inner Sphere. What's the classic FS example? The armor-making planet with a diamond shortage next door to a planet where diamonds are so common that farmers consider diamonds a menance to their plows? Clearly, the big players aren't everywhere or even in most places.
The sheer lack of interstellar travel and damage from the Succession Wars makes all sorts of pockets in the Inner Sphere where the megacorps don't exist but populations are large and investment possibilities are ripe. A planet with a population of over a billion and 19th century technology, frex - choice market to make a fortune on railroads and automobiles.
As for the big players on those planets...well, shoot, you just get their investors to be your investors, too, especially when you're bringing something new to the planet.
And as for the non-success stories...those only happen to NPCs, remember. :) All the virulent opposition from established corps just give PCs a chance for some combat after a lot of roleplaying in the boardrooms.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
10/20/01 10:15 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Got one, <<<
Like??
>>>and I'm sure the initial release of the Star League Memory Core revived all sorts of forgotten tech possibilities.<<<
But that was 34 years ago. Most of that will have been snapped up by now.
Most of it simply expanded or improved existing technology and fell squarely into the laps of existing corps.
>>>A planet with a population of over a billion and 19th
century technology, frex - choice market to make a fortune on railroads and automobiles.<<<
Making you wonder why someone else hasn't already done it...considering it's obvious and all.
>>>And as for the non-success stories...those only happen to NPCs, remember.<<<
Riiight.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
10/20/01 12:45 PM
12.78.130.239
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>Like??
Oh, RIGHT, I see. RichterTech ('an earthshaking company' - yeah, I saw your ads) sales are down a bit this quarter so you're out to steal my idea. Nope, sorry, you're going to have to spring for the corporate spies this time.
>But that was 34 years ago
No, it will be 25 years in the future. Or, wait, who's campaign are we talking about? ;)
>Making you wonder why someone else hasn't already done it...considering it's obvious and all
Why is easy: the companies that did were shot to hell in the Succession Wars, the local market is still depressed due to the drain of war damage, and interstellar shipping is non-existant.
>>And as for the non-success stories...those only happen to NPCs, remember.
>Riiight.
OK, honestly, as a GM I *have* ruined a few players' plans but, geez, their PCs had found an untouched, mothballed warship-building shipyard in the Periphery. What was I supposed to let them do, build warships? The crew of their jumpship babbled like drunken sailors on their shore leaves (cuz they were drunken sailors) and soon everyone from the Combine to the Hanseatic League was chasing them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
10/20/01 03:59 PM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Why is easy: the companies that did were shot to hell in the Succession Wars, the local market is still depressed due to the drain of war damage, and interstellar shipping is non-existant.<<<
And one would expect YOU can't do it for the very same reason.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
10/20/01 04:36 PM
12.78.130.23
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>And one would expect YOU can't do it for the very same reason
When the market bottoms out, someone, some brave company, has to be the one that makes the fortu- er...bring about recovery.
Alternately, when the market is at its worst, there's only so much capital around to launch new ventures. The companies that launch such ventures don't have to be some NPC megacorp who's focus is on the Successor State's "core worlds." The situation is perfect for the little guys who would otherwise never have a chance in a healthy market.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/02/01 10:22 PM
12.78.180.117
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>hmm..you know what, it seems to me that you are missing a point here - 31st century BTech universe is more like medieval China (with absolutely huge resources of capital) but no desire to capitalise on it, and almost no venues open FOR using that capital.
I think you've mistaken the lack of comment on individual planetary economies to be the same as there being no economies to invest in.
I don't NEED significant interstellar travel to link a financial empire on dozens or hundred of planets.
>no desire/no resources for doing high tech research,
There was always desire - the point of the Succession Wars was to deny the opponents the ability to use their research resources.
And HIGH tech research isn't needed. Opening an ICE factory or bringing containerized shipping to some planets will turn you into a merchant prince (or robber baron).
>and completely in control of a warrior caste (admitedly not case in China) that doesn't give a damn about anything other then funding their little war games.
??? Since when? The Federated Suns is/was ruled by "warrior" who founded NAIS and is desperately scrambling to gather the capital resources for economic recovery. A good chunk of the benefits of the united the Suns and Commonwealth was the amount of investments that flowed into the Suns. That's not the mark of rulership by warriors only interested in warfare. You should read up on the specifics of the Crucis Pact, too.
>Any sort of change from that status quo is undesirable for ruling classes
*cough*FederatedCommonwealth*cough*SteinerDavion*cough*
Can you shake up the status quo more than that, or the 4th Succession War?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/03/01 09:07 AM
12.78.130.101
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>the reasons you stated as good for trying to become a new merchant prince have been existant in IS for quite a while already..it seems that there either is a burgeoning new economy going on already
The economies are there, boom and bust, on the planetary scale. Remember, the Inner Sphere has a population in the trillions (see: MW 3rd ed RPG, Farmer background). Indeed, the Combine alone has trillions (see: 1st page of the Atlas in the back of the Draconis Combine Sourcebook). Planetary populations must often be in the billions in the Inner Sphere.
You don't support billions of people with a pre-industrial life style. Ergo, there's a lot of industry about that never rates a mention in BATTLEtech because it is unrelated to war. If don't build mechs, it ain't worth mentioning.
>(in which case why aren't there any new tech advances without found memory cores?)
There are. NAIS was soldiering along nicely before the GDL helped out.
However, the Succession Wars (and Comstar) have wrecked education systems and R&D centers. The Federated Suns' uses *severa*l aging jumpships (in 3025) to send "Vagabond Schools" around its *scores* of Periphery worlds. That isn't complimentary about the level of education that can be provided - a few dozen teachers on each ship are supposed to educate entire planets? In 3025, military techs are as often superstitious voodoo magicians as competently trained technicians. If they're the best the military of an interstellar state can get, everyone else is screwed.
It's thus little wonder that R&D just putters along prior to the memory core. Teachers are rare and techs are superstitious because they're half clueless about the machinery they try to repair.
>As a rule of thumb, semi-feudal societies don't stay semi-feudal once internal communications (ie roads & commerce) improve - they quickly become something entirely different. Feudal only in name, maybe...
The Inner Sphere IS feudal in name only. The Davion sourcebook (Davion being the most truly feudal of the Inner Sphere states) has a sidebar crapping all over neo-feudalism and encouraging free movement and advancement of workers. Rulers are hereditary nobles, but that doesn't make the rest of society feudal. Feudal comparisons are bad in the Federated Suns, where individual worlds get to mind their domestic affairs and pick their own governments (feudal, tyranny, communistic, democratic) so long as they accept the First Prince as head of state. From there, the comparisons go downhill. The Lyran Commonwealth/Alliance is all about robber barons, merchant princes, capitalism, and the almighty dollar (well, kroner, I think). The Free Worlds League is everything - the Mariks are partly elected wartime "for the duration of the emergency" leaders (hence, "Captain General"), and the FWL is run by a Parliament representing every form of government under the sun. Despite their nobles and oriental medieval trappings, the CC and DC are more socialist or communist (in the real world 20th Century sense) than anything. Businesses are state-run and organized for the "betterment of the people" (CC) or "for the state" (DC).
>interstellar commerce just starting to pick up for the first time after SLDF, in which case a ruthless and visionary crafty merchant COULD build an interstellar business empire
Again, you don't need interstellar shipping to run an interstellar business empire. So long as you can orders and data to and from individual planets, you can run a business empire on multiple planets. Consider Coca Cola: all of its drinks do not come from one central factory. The drinks are made by local bottling firms (producing a product to Coke's secret formula) and then distributed by local distributers. An interstellar business empire worth the title 'business empire' will far outstrip the ability of the Inner Sphere's jumpships (~2000) to ship industrial goods, thus creating reliance on locally-owned factories rather than interstellar shipping. When local factories are building your goods, the only thing you need to ship between stars is business reports and orders.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Korbel
12/18/01 08:20 AM
206.152.237.32
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Duo-Dacillion is the largest number I know... its a 1 with 40 zeros... Lets see how that looks...
$10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
OOOooooh Yeah I'd like that in my bank account
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Korbel
12/18/01 08:36 AM
206.152.237.32
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Ooohh Ohhh I got the duodillion C-Bill Idea... Remember the 'Black Boxes' that worked like an Hyper pulse generator... WITHOUT the hyper pulse generator....
PERSONAL INTERSTELLER COMMUNICATION.
At first they will be breifcase phones... christmas after that they will become hover-car phones... next christmas make them handheld...
You could even save on expenses by tieing them into a satelite network... so in essence the the portable comm's only need to reach say to the moon and the satilite network holds the expensive components... Unlike todays sat-phone network, for Btech you could us a single geo syncronus satilite over the major population center of the planet or 2,3 if its a majorly populated planet (most planets do not have as extensive a settlization as Terra).
You could even set up Comm booths and charge say $10 per minute, to provide initial revenues and spark intrest.
Well Time to start work...
Hope you like it
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Bob_Richter
12/18/01 05:20 PM
134.121.144.40
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Why not a google? Which is a 1 with 100 zeros?
Or a googleplex? Which is a 1 with a google of zeros.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Korbel
12/27/01 01:07 PM
206.152.237.32
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Hey Why hasn't anyone responded to my post... I thought it was a good one.
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Karagin
12/27/01 08:18 PM
63.173.170.189
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The UCORS from CAV might be something we should be seeing in Battletech, given how needed the mech makers are in the BT universe and maybe this can give an example of how much money ComStar was and is making just from running the interstellar commo for the Houses and everyone else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
02/20/02 04:37 PM
192.195.234.26
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I may not be the first to say it, but I think you just realized the reasoning behind the Megacorps of Shadowrun.
Except none of the megacorps made that much money before the failure of almost every government worth mentioning in the Shadowrun history.
meow
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Cray
02/20/02 04:42 PM
204.245.128.3
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No, it wasn't a "just now" realization of the Shadowrun megacorps. I understood they were supposed to be as rich as governments, richer really, but that's a wealth and power I can't grasp.
What happened in that post was that (real world) megacorps became tangible to me. Saying "GE could buy Romania out of its petty cash" is meaningless if you don't grasp the wealth of a nation or corporation.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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GiovanniBlasini
01/28/03 11:05 PM
63.210.181.186
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Actually, it is a good idea. Only problem I see would be ComStar or WoB targetting you for challenging their monopolies.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Cadet
01/28/03 11:29 PM
206.102.34.86
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Historically, a noble's prestige is ALWAYS greater than a commoner's regardless of the commoner's money. A noble is a Peer of The Realm, they're really important people. No matter how much a capitalist makes, he's NOT a Peer of The Realm, and is thus vastly inferior to any true noble's station.
Who do you think is going to have the attention of a Duke: The Baron without anything at all besides a title or a multi-billionaire industrialist who doeasn't have a title, but who does have money and property?
Does not play well with others.
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Cadet
01/29/03 12:01 AM
206.102.34.86
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You don't support billions of people with a pre-industrial life style. Ergo, there's a lot of industry about that never rates a mention in BATTLEtech because it is unrelated to war. If don't build mechs, it ain't worth mentioning.
And Mechwarrior 1 and the House books support this. The AVERAGE person in the Inner Sphere lives at the same technological level as we had roughly 15 years ago. Things were better before the Sucession Wars and technological levels have dropped to the point where the average person isn't any worse off than I am (either from lack of spare parts or factories to produce whatever). Some may be worse off (almost to subsistance farming) but some live much better at near Star League levels (think major worlds), but even a factory worker or farmer on an average world can go home to a microwave oven and a tv set.
Does not play well with others.
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Nightward
01/30/03 02:30 AM
211.26.3.172
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The Baron! Of course, the Baron 
It depends on what State it is. In the Lyran Commonwealth, Federated Commonwealth, and to a lesser extent, the Free Worlds League, money always gains attention easier than nobles.
But if you go to such heirachical nations as the Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine, or part of the FWL, nobles are always more important.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/30/03 06:01 AM
65.32.253.120
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In reply to:
But if you go to such heirachical nations as the Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine, or part of the FWL, nobles are always more important.
Though, IIRC, Ceres Metals all but owns a Capellan system, and its CEO or a local mega-manager is also the Duke.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Vapor
01/30/03 09:25 AM
202.123.139.213
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And I thought I had dug up an old post. hehehe
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cray
01/30/03 12:22 PM
65.32.253.120
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Heh. I was half curious, but all the topics in the Mechwarrior RPG forum fit on one screen (on my computer), so it's just a matter of reading down one page.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cadet
01/30/03 01:34 PM
206.102.34.179
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But if you go to such heirachical nations as the Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine, or part of the FWL, nobles are always more important.
Maybe, but I think that lip service aside, the upper nobility would be practical enough to do the necessary thing.
Does not play well with others.
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Nightward
01/30/03 07:41 PM
210.50.58.109
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It depends on who the nobles are, what house, and how much money is involved. It wouldn't even be a problem in the Combine, because all large industrial and commercial firms are state-owned or headed by members of the Kurita family.
Personally, if it came down to the impoverished Knight and the depicable, money-grubbing industrialist who has acquired and then downsized companies, raped worlds for their resources etc etc etc, I'd rather make friends with the Knight.
But if the situation was reversed, I'd go for the business man.
It depends on the situation, the people involved, the region, and how (un)scrupulous the person is in their pursuit of power.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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UncaRat
04/24/04 01:30 AM
172.156.91.5
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Give them all a prize! All of you are right, just not all in the same place.
Tier #1 world
Major worlds in general will already have a wealthy minority, many will have or be related to those who have local titles. NOTE Dukes are NOT local titles. Dukes issue some local titles see below.
Tier #2 world
Average worlds will have a smaller but still present wealthy class but te size of the fortunes will be smaller. i.e. Bill Gates and Waren Buffet would fit right in.
THESE WORLDS HAVE FAIRLY REGULAR INTERSTELAR CONTACT IN 3005^
Tier #3 worlds
Middle tier worlds have lower technology, fewer schools and te wealthyest man to be found would have less real money than Bill Gates. i. e. available wealth, a factory is wealth but it isn't fluidly available.Interstelar contact might only be two or three times a year on no special schedual on the less prosperous worlds.
Tier #4 worlds
Lower tier worlds are probably making do with 19th century technology and only see one or two ships a year. Bill Gates would be unable to invest his fortune here, the planet is too poor to absorbe that much money.
Tier #5
Anything more isolated than this is really a Perif. world regardless of its loation with regards to its economy.
SOURCES OF NOBLE TITLES:
Grand Dukes, Archons, Princes ect. issue Dukedoms as needed, also Marquee (Spelling?) One to a planet. Marquee is used for worlds not considered important enough for a Duke.
A certain number of titles at lower ranks are issued when the Planet is founded and new ones are normaly created only for some need. i. e. a previously undeveloped area is opened for development by the Duke, usually 2 leevels or more below the Duke. If the line fails then the title reverts to the issuer, who may keep it or reissue it as they see fit.
A Duke would be able to issue a count level title on is own authority, a count could issue a Baronnet and any noble can in theory knight someone.
Part of the prestiege comes from the source of your families title and its age.
ALL OF THIS IS SUBJECT TO LOCAL INFLUENCES AND CULTURAL NORMS.
So as I said everybody is right somewhere 
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Cray
04/24/04 09:02 AM
24.27.227.56
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Quote:
Give them all a prize! All of you are right, just not all in the same place.
Interesting point, and interesting resurrection of a very old thread. I guess the MW forum doesn't move very fast on this board, does it? 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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UncaRat
08/07/04 01:24 AM
172.128.75.140
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I'm new and I'm checking some of the old threads over. Better to find the answers if their there, and try to keep my foot out of my mouth.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/04/11 07:49 AM
107.29.174.173
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I find this discussion about the ultra rich and noble argument intrusting. What is a noble but a person that has a **** load of money and power because of the wealth that can convince others that there more important than the so called commoners are. All noble titles are is smoke and mirrors. Throughout history noble tiles where thrown around so the powerful can stay powerful.
If a king had someone that was to powerful to be stepped on the king he would offer some title so said powerful person so he would work for the king and not against him because it would be to the powerful persons self interest to do so. The same works for BT.
Also during times of fanatical crises money can be gained by sailing noble titles. That happened quite a few times during the British Empire. Titles are cheap, weapons cost money!
9) Everybody who's ever tried to set up a personal empire in the Periphery has been wasting their time. Give me a better mouse trap to market in the FWL, LC, or FS (cheap fusion engines, frex) and in 5 decades I can be a Lord God Robber Baron Fusion Megacorp Mogul with 20 worlds effectively at my beck and call. Marian Hegemony, eat your heart out.
That's exactly the history that I am writing up for my character that controls Assinine Industries. Gain control of a system in the Periphery then built an empire manufacturing and selling weapon systems to the waring Enter Sphere states and other powers.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/29/11 07:40 PM
75.170.96.46
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Thats similar to what some players I knew did. They had some missions where they found old production facilities for stuff out in the periphery that were abandoned (Bottling plants, Fusion engines, ect.) and decided to repair and use them instead of still fighting the mercenary lifestyle. The bottling plant was especially kooky- it was out near the Magistracy where fresh water was scarce, and the mercenary force eventually made enough money from it to be the most advanced unit in the periphery for equipment, bar-none.
A few bad rolls in the jihad really knocked em' down, tho.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/14/14 11:22 AM
172.56.15.167
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To find what the GDP would in BT. I would say take the present annual percent increase and multiply the current WDP by that yearly percent and that might get you something near what the GNP would be.
On Furturama Fry had a couple of cents in his bank account in 2000 and in a thousand years 3000 he had billions in his account. I dont want to look up what episode it was in to get the numbers.
I would think a hundred Quadrillion dollar corporation would be a very tiny back world corporation.
I would say we would be looking at a GDP of something like in the high Octillions if not in the Nonillions.
This will give you names of numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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